The economics of premarital sex

It seems Tony Abbott has caused something of a kafuffle by advising his daughters not to engage in premarital sex. All the luvvies are out in force carrying on about how outrageous this is.* Mind you I’m sure many fathers of teenage daughters give exactly that same advice and failing that say ‘please be careful’. Of course, others might argue that Abbott is a hypocrite; afterall he speaks of his own behaviour as a young man in his recent book Battlelines. That’s life; its unfair and there do seem to be different standards for males and females. As in many of these differences the biological division of labour plays a large role.

Eric Crampton points to an interesting NBER paper (ungated version here). From the conclusion

Engaging in a premarital conjugal relationship in yesteryear was a perilous activity for a young woman. The odds of becoming pregnant were high, given the primitive state of contraception. The economic consequences of an out-of-wedlock birth were dire for a young woman. Being born in or out of wedlock could be the difference between life or death for a child. Just like today young adults would have weighed the cost and benefit of engaging in premarital sex. The cost would have been lower for women stuck at the bottom of the social economic scale, so they would have been more inclined to participate. To tip the scale against premarital sex, parents, churches, etc. socialized children to possess a set of sexual mores aimed at stigmatizing sex. Parents at the lower end of the social economic scale would have less incentive to engage in such practice. With the passage of time contraception become more efficient and the costs of premarital sex consequently declined. This changed the cost and benefit calculation for young adults so that they would be more likely to participate in sexual activity. It also reduced the need for socialization by parents, or the church and state, which would also spur promiscuity. This is an example of culture following technological progress.

I understand the time series argument, but the cross-section income argument is counter-intuitive. If we believe that the costs of raising children out of wedlock are higher for females than for males then those costs must be proportionality higher for females in lower socio-economic groups than for higher socio-economic groups. Sure the costs of socialising children are high but I don’t see why they would vary by parental income. Yet that is implied by the data.

So, for instance, in the bottom decile 70% of girls between the ages of 15 and 19 have experienced it, versus 47% in the top one. Similarly, 68% of adolescent girls whose family income lies in the upper quartile would feel “very upset” if they got pregnant, versus 46% of those whose family income is in the lower quartile.

I haven’t read through the model carefully so there might be an explanation for this in the paper, but nothing jumped out at me while skimming through it. It does seem, however, that both parents and societal institutions used to socialise children. If parents with a lower socioeconomic status economised on socialisation, then societal institutions such as the church would have substituted for this at some margin. One of the results in the paper suggests that as the costs of illegitimacy have fallen for religious institutions so they have engaged in less socialisation.

* Most notably Julia Gillard who has no children.
Update: The Age does some fact checking on the story and reckons its a beat-up.

In an interview with The Australian Women’s Weekly, one designed to present himself favourably to the voting public ahead of an election year, this is what Abbott had to say on the subject of pre-marital sex. ”It happens.”

”I think I would say to my daughters if they were to ask me this question … it is the greatest gift that you can give someone, the ultimate gift of giving and don’t give it to someone lightly, that’s what I would say.”

Leaving aside the Opposition Leader’s hackneyed ”gift” metaphor – an idea possibly lifted from a Mills and Boon romance novel where the hero’s name is Rock or Brutus – what is Abbott saying?

He’s saying don’t bang the first randy, pimple-faced adolescent you smooch at the school disco just because he insists he loves you. He’s saying think about it.

Isn’t this what many parents would advise their growing kids?

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111 Responses to The economics of premarital sex

  1. Infidel Tiger

    Pretty strange world when a father can’t give his children advice on how to avoid his mistakes. I’d hope if Julia Gillard was ever gifted with children she’d advise them to avoid university communist clubs and 95% of her haird-dos.

  2. rog

    You would think he would do it in private, it is a personal matter requiring some sensitivity and not blab about it to the media.

    He could have said no comment but he does like the smell of greasepaint.

  3. Sinclair Davidson

    Don’t know about that, rog. My understanding is that he was questioned closely about it and answered reluctantly.

  4. C.L.

    Indeed. Unlike Rudd, who has become the first prime minister in Australian history to give sermons from a churchyard on Sundays.

  5. Sinclair Davidson

    The thing to do now is ask those ALP ministers who have daughters what advice they gave, if any, to their children.

  6. Savvas Tziwnhs

    “Mr Abbott advised his sons to abstain from pre-marital sex.”

    Would he have said that?

  7. C.L.

    Julia Gillard finally comments on strip club aficionado Kevin Rudd’s notoriously abusive verbal assault on a female RAAF flight attendant, who was left in tears:

    “These comments will confirm the worst fears of Australian women about Kevin Rudd,” Ms Gillard told reporters.

    “Australian women don’t want to be told what to do by Kevin Rudd.

    “Australian women want to make their own choices and they don’t want to be lectured to by Mr Rudd.”

    Oops, my mistake.

  8. What was the proverb attributed to Alfred the Great? “Give it up sparingly girls, then *make demands*” [that too is the sanitised version}.

    Clearly a father with family (viz estates and inheritances) interests at heart.

    I applaud such shrewdness.

  9. C.L.

    Surprise: the ABC’s Jonathan Green defends Abbott and hammers Gillard for lying.

  10. Rococo Liberal

    Gillard is a total fool. She has just delivered thousands of votes to the Coalition. As all the usual femonazis and idiotarians of the left speak out on Abbott’s ‘antediluvian’ attitudes, the mass of Australians, who actually agree 100% with what he says about pre-marital sex, will see a real person who shares their moral viewpoint. Whilst the ALP is full of geeks and nerds who can never get a shag.

    Cavaliers are always smarter, sexier, richer and just plain better than roundheads.

    Sinistra delenda est!

  11. Michael Fisk

    What? How can Australians agree 100% with Abbott on pre-marital sex when there is something like a 10-year gap between the average age of marriage and virginity loss? Abbott is entitled to his views, but we shouldn’t pretend that they are always popular.

  12. It seems apt to note that The Times ran some letters last week between Iris Murdoch and a university pal (who she had not slept with.) He responded to her advice that she had lost her virginity (and was kind of glad to get it over and done with) by noting:

    “I am coming to the conclusion that it is better to abstain altogether until one falls head over heels in love. Men who had never slept with anyone before their wife, tell me that the first weeks of their honeymoon were an ecstasy they have never known before or since — an ecstasy which those who have already partaken of the fruit will never know. But perhaps different approaches suit different people.”

    I look forward to an economic assessment of those few weeks of ecstasy. 🙂
    http://tinyurl.com/yh4p5hs

  13. “What? How can Australians agree 100% with Abbott on pre-marital sex when there is something like a 10-year gap between the average age of marriage and virginity loss?”

    There’s a difference between stated and revealed preferences. Cf gym memberships and attendance, popularity of cooking programs and fast food places, ‘green’ aspirations and genuine efforts, polls on tax/spend levels and voting patterns.

    I’d imagine this is more of the same – most people like the abstract idea of saving it for the honeymoon (especially the idea of other people doing so), and applaud its advocacy, but when confronted by a dry spell turn out to be randy hornbags.

  14. C.L.

    Good points, Jarrah. Plus, a lot of women tend to see their first sexual experiences as having been premature, peremptory or even born of male pressure. They want better for their daughters and, if anything, they may well identify with flawed Abbott’s moral aspirationalism. The Gillard/Cox brand of pious relativism is now very dated.

  15. Peter Patton

    Mark my words, this will prove a game-changer, and not in Rudd or Gillard’s favor.

  16. Peter Patton

    Jarrah

    Are you suggesting the daughters of Australia should keep their preferences veiled rather than revealed? 😉

  17. rog

    “I think it’s a very old-fashioned notion of course that we just have a business of virginity being something `very, very’ sacred,”

    That was from a Liberal MP Sharman Stone.

  18. C.L.

    LOL!

    Rudd comments:

    The Prime Minister said today he would not be offering any advice on the topic.

    “You know something? I don’t think my job as Prime Minister is to provide individual, personal, moral advice for the young people of Australia,” he told Perth Radio 6PR.

    Rudd in December:

    Rudd on binge drinking.

    Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has urged Australians to know when ‘to declare’ while drinking this summer.

    Speaking on the Melbourne Cricket Ground before play on the second day of the Boxing Day Test, Mr Rudd said Australia has a problem with binge drinking.

    ‘Know when to declare,’ he said.

    ‘Know when you have had enough. Know when to say to your mates they have had enough.’

    Rudd in April 2008:

    Rudd declares war on ‘alcopops’.

    THE RUDD Government last night made a daring assault on teenage binge drinking by lifting taxes on lollypop alcohol drinks.

    Rudd has been lecturing young people for the past three years.

  19. C.L.

    The insightful genius of Sharman Stone.

    Opposition frontbencher Sharman Stone said a leadership spill would be considered a joke by most of her colleagues.

    “They will bring it on if they wish. We can’t say don’t do it,” Dr Stone told reporters.

    “Certainly, if the spill does occur, Thursday morning, then it will be interesting to see, but I believe Malcolm Turnbull will walk out of that situation a stronger leader than ever.”

    Good call.

  20. JC

    lord, Rudd is such a little weasel. The very first action of his government was to tax alcopops suggesting it was a way to reducing teen drinking.

    Now he doesn’t have any advice. He is such a weasel he gives weasels a bad name.

    (He’s like Homer but with better verbal skills.)

  21. rog

    CL wants to have a war on hymens.

  22. rog

    In CLs perfect universe “young ladies” horseriding and athletics will banned.

  23. “CL wants to have a war on hymens.'”

    Doesn’t sound like abstinence, sounds like a “teen sex wager romp” movie.

  24. C.L.

    You seem to be using that word a lot lately, Rog. Has it popped up in the gender reassignment literature that Geoffrey gave you?

  25. Infidel Tiger

    I think it’s a very old-fashioned notion of course that we just have a business of virginity being something `very, very’ sacred

    After copping a butcher’s hook of her bonce, I’d have to agree that in her case she’s spot on.

  26. JC

    She certainly wouldn’t be added to Berlusconi’s inner cabinet.

  27. rog

    Abbott lamely whimpers

    Look, I was subjected to a one-hour grilling from the editor of the Australian Women’s Weekly

    Wait until he gets interviewed by Better Homes & Garden

  28. JC

    That’s actually quite funny, Rog….

  29. C.L.

    She certainly wouldn’t be added to Berlusconi’s inner cabinet.

    Rog might be, though.

  30. Sleetmute

    Sinc, re the income cross-sectional argument, of course the costs of raising children are relatively lower for lower socio-economic group women. These women may have been working casual low-skilled jobs pre-kids and will get welfare benefits (FTA and FTB) that could even leave their disposable income higher post-kids than it was pre-kids. On the other hand, high socio-economic group women may also get welfare, but they are unlikely to be better off post-kids than pre-kids if having kids forces them to give up a high-paying job.

  31. Sinclair Davidson

    Sleetmute – that may explain the ex-post costs of having kids, but it doesn’t explain why low socio-economc groups do less socialisation of their own children pre-kids. (So why don’t the grandparents socialise their daughters before she gets pregnant?)

  32. Sleetmute

    Precisely because even pre-kids (or absent kids altogether), their daughters’ economic prospects are not great.

  33. Anna Winter

    I think it’s about the different values placed on women in different socio-economic classes. Lower/working class women were servants, nannies, maids etc… having children out of wedlock was still frowned upon, but it didn’t destroy their “value” in the way it would an upper class woman who was prized more for their ability to be a good trophy wife – beautiful, untouched, pure…

    Today it’s a similar theme, though different in some ways. Upper class/educated women stand to lose a lot more by having a child out of wedlock, in terms of ability to find eligible men and continue meaningful and successful career paths. But for the working class woman who didn’t finish high school and is looking at a life of less appealing employment, there are fewer social costs involved.

    Please note that this a sketchy description, and these aren’t concepts I’m endorsing at all. I’m also aware that they are highly stereotypical. But I think it gets close to the idea that they’re trying to get across…?

  34. Anna Winter

    On Abbott’s comments and the “luvvy” kneejerk reaction, I will grant you that some of it has been. But from the thoughtful end, the problem isn’t Abbott talking about encouraging his daughters to wait until marriage. It’s the idea of virginity as gift, especially as one-way gift – something women can give to men.

    That and the idea that sex is something women have to protect themselves from, that puts the onus on women to be pure and protect their assets. This does two things: one it puts women in a situation where if that is taken unwillingly from them, it isn’t bad because it’s traumatic, it’s bad because she is no longer in possession of something that she can trade for a potential husband; secondly, it makes sex something that women can “give”, not something they can actively choose and participate in.

    This really isn’t the same as telling a woman that her sexuality is hers to do as she chooses. His language objectifies women just as much as the Girls Gone Wild mentality does. It’s two sides of the same coin, one side thinks that women’s sexuality is there for the taking, the other side says that women must do everything in their power to prevent it being taken. Both sides discuss women only as sexual objects, not subjects.

  35. Anna – I think much is being read into what Abbot said. He might have meant that, he may not have:

    From the Australian:

    In the interview, Mr Abbott said he would tell his daughters that sex was “the greatest gift that you can give someone, the ultimate gift of giving, and don’t give it to someone lightly.”

  36. Peter Patton

    Yairsss. Get back to us when you’re a father with daughters. Until then, iron my shirt thanks darlin’. 😉

  37. JC

    Well and good Anna, except that he was responding to a question raised about HIS daughters. Seeing he doesn’t have sons we don’t know what he would be saying about them.

    And this also leads to what’s never obvious in your side of the universe and I don’t mean that in a nasty way but in the way to describe left leaning women.

    Seeing Abbot was talking about young people I’m relating this to that sector of the population.

    The fact is that younger boys have an enormous desire for sex which would be measured in multiples higher than females of their same age group.

    It’s a given that young males want sex, a lot more sex than females and there isn’t anything they are “giving up”, which could even be considered a gift.

    In that sense Abbott is correctly describing how things are and why there are differences.

  38. Peter Patton

    Oh, and I think you will find it is the Girls Gone Wild young slappers who “objectify” (whatever that is supposed to mean) themselves, not Tony Abbott. In fact Abbott’s point is precisely against the slappers.

  39. Peter Patton

    No doubt Rudd will be setting up a scholarship fund so young Australian women can go to finishing school in New York. Bachelor of Slappers (University of Scores). 😉

  40. Sinclair Davidson

    Anna, isn’t the real issue here that people have discovered that a conservative has old-fashioned ideas? Or, at least, expresses himself in an old-fashioned way.

  41. Peter Patton

    Sinclair, this is less a “conservative” issue than a father issue.

  42. Sinclair Davidson

    yes, I understand. But the ‘gift’ aspect perhaps is old-fashioned.

  43. Sleetmute

    Anna, in principle, I agree that Abbott’s remarks suggest he sees sex as something women ‘give’ rather than can choose to enjoy and yes, this is old fashioned and objectifies women. But isn’t the reality that many young men see young women as conquests whereas few(er) young women feel the same way about young men? I think all Abbott is saying is that young women should not take a decision to become sexually active lightly, as they may later regret it. Young men are probably less likely to regret becoming sexually active or having sex generally.

  44. Anna Winter

    Sure, Sinclair. I don’t think any of us who have paid attention to Tony Abbott for longer than the past 6 months are surprised that he has these views. All I’m saying is that the sensible criticism isn’t about the fact that he’s a father giving what sounds like reasonable advice to his daughters. The criticism is trying to unpack what he’s saying, to highlight that what he’s saying isn’t what it looks like he’s saying at first glance.

    He isn’t saying it’s good to be ready. He’s saying a woman’s virginity is an asset, and she should protect said asset. Which is an important distinction for anyone who votes and is a woman.

    Asked if his advice was the same to young men, he said it was “much the same.

    “Treat people with respect and don’t act in ways that demean other people,” he said.

    Do you see the difference? Men mustn’t demean women, I guess by accepting their gift too soon. But they don’t have an equivalent gift to protect and give.

    Peter Patton, I doubt very much that I “will find” anything of the sort.

  45. Peter Patton

    Well it was the Women’s Weekly. Perhaps his people should set up an interview with Zoo, so his contribution could be more “inclusive”. 😉

  46. Anna Winter

    Sleetmute – yes, but this is where the nuance comes in. He isn’t saying that as a general rule people should only have sex when they are ready and with a willing partner.

    By setting it up as a situation in which it’s assumed that men will force, and women must resist, it’s simply reinforcing the same patterns as the view that says women should stop resisting and give it up for the men.

    This view of women has larger consequences than the occasional pompous lecture on sex and marriage. If that’s all it was I wouldn’t care.

  47. JC

    Anna:

    What you’re advocating would be supported by the male 1/2 of the population in leaps and bounds. I can’t can hear the screams of “bring it on”.

  48. C.L.

    It’s the idea of virginity as gift, especially as one-way gift – something women can give to men.

    Nonsense, Anna. The value of virginity as a “gift” to safeguard is familiar to most Christians and applies equally to men as to women. Which is actually what Abbott said:

    Asked whether he expects his own daughters to remain virgins until they are married, Mr Abbott says all women should regard their virginity as a gift that should not be given lightly… The Opposition Leader says men and women tempted by sex before marriage should try to abide by “the rules” but at least use contraception if they can’t wait.

    He only has daughters and this leads you to extrapolate (incorrectly) according to Gillardian invention.

    Here’s what Barack Obama said when asked a comparable question about his daughters:

    When it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include — which should include abstinence education and teaching the children — teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include — it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I’ve got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby. I don’t want them punished with an STD at the age of 16. You know, so it doesn’t make sense to not give them information.”

    Will Gillard denounce Obama for lecturing the world’s women about the danger of sexual casualness and the importance of abstinence, values and morals.

    But of course not. We learned during the Lewinski scandal that Western feminists give special passes to lefty male politicians.

  49. Peter Patton

    AW for all your babbling about “nuance” your own reading skills could do with some of their own. Tony Abbott has three daughters you see. Again, Not. All. About. YOU.

  50. Sinclair Davidson

    Anna, its hard to get too excited about all this. People demean themselves, even before others demean them, and I suspect Abbott is saying that people should respect themselves and others.

  51. Anna Winter

    I find it interesting that you think I’m getting excited about it. You started a thread, I made a contribution.

    That isn’t what Abbott is saying, and I know this not because Gillard told me, but because I have followed Abbott’s utterings for a long time and my reading fits.

  52. Sleetmute

    Anna, I’m not suggesting that Abbott is saying “as a general rule people should only have sex when they are ready and with a willing partner.” In that sense I agree with you that he is treating young women differently from young men. What I am suggesting is that the reality for many young people is that sex is something men are keen to pursue irrespective of how they feel towards a woman or what happens afterwards whereas women are more likely to experience regret if the sex does not lead to something more meaningful. This may be due to genetic differences or to gender socialisation, but for whatever reason I think it is true. Wanting things to be different is not the same thing as this generalisation being inaccurate.

  53. C.L.

    But from the thoughtful end, the problem isn’t Abbott talking about encouraging his daughters to wait until marriage. It’s the idea of virginity as gift, especially as one-way gift – something women can give to men.

    Notice what Anna did there? She says the problem wasn’t with something Abbott said but with a particular idea – which Abbott, of course, didn’t posit. Anna posited it. She invented it to create what’s called at LP a “narrative” that she can then denounce.

  54. Peter Patton

    As I said get back to me when you have kids. Until then, the shirt please.

  55. Peter Patton

    CL

    Not only that. But from the “thoughtful” end. Fanciful, deluded, and narcissistic end more like.

  56. Anna Winter

    CL I’d respond to that if it made any sense.

  57. Anna Winter

    But I do love the idea that the only people who can discuss young women are parents, and not, you know, people who are or have been young women

  58. Peter Patton

    AW, I should hope you “didn’t get it from Gillard” as she is hardly the font of wisdom on families and raising children is she now.

  59. JC

    he’s saying your extension of his comment is a strawman, Anna.

  60. C.L.

    It’s your m.o. and no, it doesn’t make any sense. You’ve invented what Abbott “said” vis-a-vis the genders and then condemned it. It’s called a straw dummy.

  61. C.L.

    Just as a matter of interest, Anna, can you point us to the Larvatus Prodeo thread where you and your sisters excoriate Kevin Rudd for his infamous verbal assault on a female RAAF attendant for not bringing him the dinner a man wanted after a long day?

  62. Sinclair Davidson

    I find it interesting that you think I’m getting excited about it.

    I’m a bit embarrassed – I hadn’t given any thought to what excites you, I’m suggesting I’m not excited.

  63. rog

    On a slightly different tangent, it looks like the French are to outlaw the burqa

    Women choose to wear the burqa for various reasons and the French are to make this choice a crime, in the name of “freedom”.

    It isnt a religious theme as Imams are not opposing the ban.

    Once again we have these self important men deciding what is best for women to wear and how women should use their body.

    Abbott should just stick to his budgie smugglers.

  64. Peter Patton

    AW, I doubt very much you are a “young woman”. Your tone and ideas are too bitter and coarse. More likely you are a woman ‘of a certain age’.

  65. Anna Winter

    Fair enough, Sinclair. It sounded like you were implying that I was over-reacting to a subject that doesn’t interest you.

    CL, it’s not called inventing, it’s called reading for meaning. I’m am interpreting his actual words, which I will repost here:

    On women:

    Mr Abbott is also asked about whether he expects his own daughters to remain virgins until they are married and says all women should regard their virginity as “a gift” that should not be given lightly.

    On men:

    Asked if his advice was the same to young men, he said it was “much the same.

    “Treat people with respect and don’t act in ways that demean other people,” he said.

  66. Anna Winter

    That age being 31, Peter. Granted it’s probably older than you’d like, but young enough that I still have a memory of being a young woman. Do you?

  67. tal

    I bet The PM lost his virginity in a car 🙂

  68. Peter Patton

    Hmmmm…running on empty. Who would have guessed?

  69. JC

    Or perhaps he’s still one. The little weasel.

    ————

    Rog,

    What point are you trying to say?

  70. Sinclair Davidson

    rog – the French take liberty, equality and fraternity seriously and somewhat differently to how we might do so. You will be free and you will be equal even if you don’t want to be. 🙂

  71. Peter Patton

    Indeed. It is illegal in France to take down details of a person’s ethnicity or religion. They are all FRENCH!

  72. C.L.

    “Go Archbishop Pell, lay the boot in to secular democracy and militant Islam.”

    – Rog, November 13, 2004.

    Hear hear!

  73. C.L.

    So you’re now acknowledging that he has the same idea vis-a-vis men and women, Anna? Which comes as no surprise to anyone who has seen the lilly-carrying statues of Mary and Joseph in Catholic Churches throughout the world.

    I bet The PM lost his virginity in a car.

    Yes, but let’s hope it wasn’t the Morris Minor he lived in after being (imaginatively) thrown out of his home by an evil capitalist landowner.

  74. tal

    Nah CL I’m thinking it was a Datsun 180b

  75. Michael Fisk

    Will Gillard denounce Obama for lecturing the world’s women about the danger of sexual casualness and the importance of abstinence, values and morals.

    Did the Left denounce Obama for opposing Gay Marriage?

  76. C.L.

    Well, I humiliated myself by buying the Women’s Weekly and reading the whole article for myself. I can report that yes, this is a huge beatup related to a small section of the feature that has been cherry-picked by the usual anti-Catholic dog-whistlers.

    I was amused to read the story about Julia Gillard flirting with Abbott through an entire flight they were both on – before walking together and “chatting all the way to the carousel when at least one of them didn’t have any luggage to collect.” Turns out Abbott isn’t too scary to Julia in private.

  77. It is something of a very small plus for Tony Abbott that at least people can imagine him having sex. I suspect that for everyone except Therese, Kevin Rudd engaging in it at any age is just a queasy mental no-go area, rather like how it is for children and their parents.

  78. Michael Fisk

    I also wonder how many Leftist denouncers of Abbott have themselves condemned Sheikh al-Hilaly for comparing women to uncovered meat?

  79. JC

    Kevin Rudd engaging in it at any age is just a queasy mental no-go area,

    Well that just ruined a decent , but light dinner. The mere thought is sickening. Poor Therese, she has my deepest sympathy.

  80. Peter Patton

    I suspect that our young(ish) guest Miss Winter is like many a lass ‘of a certain age’. She is angry at herself for actually having the hots for Tony Abbott, just like Ministeress Gillard clearly has. 😉

  81. Peter Patton

    JC I don’t know, I really like Therese. She strikes me as very lusty, blousy, plucky, clever type indeed. It just goes to show that opposites really do attract.

  82. JC

    I have the utmost respect for her too, PP. I’ve never made a comment against her and indeed see her her as an accomplished woman. I’m also sympathetic if she ever realizes how much better she could have done in the marriage department which i would share with her.

  83. Michael Fisk

    I dunno JC, marrying the future PM ain’t bad!

  84. Anna Winter

    It’s Ms Winter, Peter. Goddess of Reason to you.

  85. Peter Patton

    Goddesses are the source of life, my dear child. Go forth and multiply!

  86. rog

    I can imagine Abbott having sex, I just cant imagine who would want to be his partner.

  87. rog

    Gawd, CL listens to Alan Jones and reads the Womens Weekly to bone up on this virginity thing.

    Too much free time and too much spare cash

  88. Peter Patton

    rog. that is just your testosterone fueled pride talking.

  89. rog

    I can imagine Abbott humping a chair leg or a gumboot

    Ruff! Ruff!

  90. JC

    Rog:

    Not for nothing, but it was only yesterday the entire site participation was making fun of you for referencing Zoo magazine as a source of reference about Abbott.

    Now here you are dissing CL because he went out and specifically bought the magazine that’s carrying the piece in question.

    Is there a numbnut competition anywhere in the world , as I would like to enter you to represent the country.

  91. Sinclair Davidson

    I can imagine Abbott having sex

    rog – people are having their dinner. 🙂

  92. JC

    …That is just your testosterone fueled pride talking.

    Rogette doesn’t have any testosterone. Since the sex change operation and the breast implants he’s been estrogen soaked.

  93. Peter Patton

    jc. i don’t know, Therese presents as a very chirpy, confident, satisfied, happy bird, so Kevin the old son of a gun must be doing something right. Maybe he learnt all his tricks at Scores! 🙂

  94. Peter Patton

    Fair enough. Then it must be his estrogen fueled desire talking! 🙂

  95. Infidel Tiger

    Make no mistake, Abott has certainly fucked with Rog’s head. I’ve never seen someone go so far off the deep end. All because of his beloved ETS. Weirdo.

  96. John H.

    It was bad enough when Rudd went hyper over those art gallery photos. Abbott is a fool for making such public statements. When will politicians learn to stick to the knitting?

  97. Tony Abbott has caused something of a kafuffle by advising his daughters not to engage in premarital sex. All the luvvies are out in force carrying on about how outrageous this is.
    .
    It is outrageous. Absolutely unacceptable. Anyone who cares about the future should be writing to Abbott and telling him off.
    .
    Not only should he be advising his daughters not to have premarital sex he should be advising his sons. And also they shouldn’t have after marital sex either. We want this gene stream ended now. 🙂
    .
    Engaging in a premarital conjugal relationship in yesteryear was a perilous activity for a young woman
    .
    Yeah. So what?

  98. dover_beach

    Abbott responds to a question about the advice he gives to his daughters and this is then extrapolated so that it appears he is ‘lecturing’ all Australian women? What an incredible beat-up.

  99. daddy dave

    Yeah. So what?
    .
    you don’t find it interesting to trace the historical roots of various social mores?

  100. Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

    I would imagine Abbott would tell his daughters of how he mucked it up and to avoid this.

    I can’t see anything wrong with this.

    it is something all parents do with their children.

  101. C.L.

    Sinclair’s update:

    Leaving aside the Opposition Leader’s hackneyed ”gift” metaphor – an idea possibly lifted from a Mills and Boon romance novel where the hero’s name is Rock or Brutus.

    No, not lifted from Mills and Boon. It’s a common form of expression in Catholic theology.

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    “Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.”

    “The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.”

    “Chastity is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort.”

    Etc.

  102. C.L.

    It was bad enough when Rudd went hyper over those art gallery photos.

    They were photos of 14 year-old children. Children cannot consent to being photographed nude to make money for “artists.”

    Rudd was 100 percent right about Henson.

  103. Sinclair Davidson

    CL – she was 13.

  104. you don’t find it interesting to trace the historical roots of various social mores?
    .
    DD – It’s pretty axiomatic why sexual mores come into being. Abbott’s little sentimental miasma viz the wonders of virginity belong to the past. The reality behind the idealized imagery of chaste blushing brides is ignorance and misery. And the notion that one would marry someone without having sex with them beforehand belongs to a mentality which holds sex to be a necessary evil, something to be ashamed of.
    .
    If these people have those hang-ups they’re worthy of pity. Leave the rest of us out of it. Chastity is a gift from God. Chastity is a personal choice.

  105. C.L.

    Abbott’s little sentimental miasma viz the wonders of virginity belong to the past.

    He didn’t say anything about the “wonders of virginity.” Interesting that the only way the hysterics can lay a glove on him is to manufacture a false version of his remarks.

    What’s amusing about this is the sectarianism resurrected by Abbott’s critics – harking back, as it does, to the 1950s and, beyond that, to the American Know Nothings. Abbott’s critics are the dinosaurs.

  106. Interesting that the only way the hysterics can lay a glove on him is to manufacture a false version of his remarks.
    .
    Yes terrible isn’t it when someone takes something you said and twists it about to say something else. Shockin’!
    .
    🙂

  107. Daddy Dave – you don’t find it interesting to trace the historical roots of various social mores?
    .
    It’s hardly new information is it? Whole traditions of literature have evolved from the tragedies and comedies that ensue for these basic biological facts. The question isn’t what have we done but what do we do now.
    .
    The situation is this: technology has provided us with reliable methods of contraception and determining patrimony. Hence the basis of the old system wherein girls remain virgins ’til their wedding night no longer obtains. However a situation in which a teenage lass writes in her diary, not long wistful paragraphs viz the avatar of her dreams but boastful declarations about her capacity to felate all the boys… well that ain’t good either.
    .
    Tony Abbott’s perfectly entitled to raise his daughters as he sees fit provided he doesn’t harm them. However, this little riff is part of a wider discourse from those seeking to reassert religious authority to a degree I find alarming. Some of these people, not all it must be stressed, wish to roll reason back from its current influence. They’ve started with themselves. Sarah Palin’s grandson, Tony Abbott’s first son were unplanned pregnancies surfeit I’d wager of a lack of tolerance and knowledge. These episodes are representative.
    .
    I’m sure there’s a prevalent view associated with the ethos I describe that says if only you can get rid of sex on TV and porn – and poufters while you’re at it – then everything’ll be jake. How, pray tell me, do you do that without reverting to an illiberal state of affairs? What’s more desirable finally is harder in the short term, the development of a morality version update.

  108. Patrickb

    “The thing to do now is ask those ALP ministers who have daughters what advice they gave, if any, to their children”

    Oh I wish I was an ALP minister. Then I could tell you to f*ck off and mind your own business. Which Abbott could have done but he’s too brainless.

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