Open Forum February 6, 2010 at Catallaxy Files

Open Forum February 6, 2010

781 comments

Written by Sinclair Davidson

February 6th, 2010 at 7:59 am

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781 Responses to 'Open Forum February 6, 2010'

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Over half of Democrats, and a third of Americans generally view ‘socialism’ positively:

http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/2010/02/04/gallup-majority-of-dems-view-socialism-positively/

THR

6 Feb 10 at 8:53 am
Yawn. Hmm?

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 10 at 9:06 am
THR

Thanks for that. I’ll have a read of your link. It looks like a great discussion opener! I posted this on the Windy vs. Manne thread, but it more relevant here.

I find all this neologizing of political ideologies infuriatingly boring and pointless. Having said that, I think that five categories will serve you pretty well in ananlyzing most societlies and most historical contexts. In modern Australia, three covers most of it.

The Big 5 are:

Theocrat
Conservative
Socialist
Liberal
Reactionary

For Australia the Big 3 are:

Liberal
Conservative
Socialist

Civic discourse would improve immeasurably if “socialism” were once more prominently used. I think all these recent hybrids and neologisms have been a serious drain on the quality of political here in Australia, but even more in the US! In particular I would like to see the banishing of the two most empty and evasive terms currently doing the rounds: social democracy and neoliberalism.

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 10:01 am
Over half of Democrats, and a third of Americans generally view ’socialism’ positively

That’s my sort of numbers! Let’s marginalise them as much as we can!

Michael Sutcliffe

6 Feb 10 at 10:15 am
MS

I’ve just read that Gallup poll, and it’s nonsense.The same sample that has 36% of Americans who have a “positive” image of socialism, clearly have no idea what socialism is.

Americans are almost uniformly positive in their reactions to three terms: small business (95%), free enterprise (86%), and entrepreneurs (84%).

http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/Socialism-Viewed-Positively-Americans.aspx

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 10:23 am
‘Socialism’ has been prominently used recently. Public health care (of the sort enjoyed by virtually every developed nation bar the US) is denounced as ‘socialism’, so it’s not surprising that the term is losing some of scare value.

I think there’s a defence to be had of the terms ‘social democracy’ and ‘neoliberalism’. Social democracy/democratic socialism refers, IMO, to old-school laborism, Fabianism, etc. It’s a reasonable way of classifying socialist policies of the sort that exist in Australia, Canada, and elsewhere.

Neoliberalism is more controversial, but there are some features – its reliance on authoritarianism, for one – that distinguish it from ‘classic’ liberalism.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 10:29 am
PP, I was going to reply to the above in the other thread but then simply left it. This thread is probably more appropriate.

I don’t think that theocrats or reactionaries have ideological positions in the same manner that socialists or liberals do. Theocracy is itself part of a group of words like monarchy, democracy, oligarchy, etc. which simply denotes a type of rule apart from anything else. Reactionaries, moreover, have no doctrine to speak of, nor does the term denote a type of rule, it is simply used in order to distinguish certain persons from ‘progressives’; they are in fact the invention of ‘progressives’. As far as conservatism is concerned, it is in truth a disposition rather than a doctrine.

I think, following Oakeshott, its best to think about politics in terms of its character/s, and in modern politics, since the 16th C onwards, there are two distinct characters or polarities, faith and scepticism. And what I mean by these words, faith and scepticism, is not a religious faith or scepticism, but that our politics is divided more or less by those who wish to establish and/or maintain a comprehensive political order, which may be religious, productivist (communist), distributivist (socialist), etc. and those who simply want to maintain a superficial political order, which principally involves the maintenance of civil peace and order. This spectrum makes far more sense then any other I know.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 10:39 am
Neoliberalism is more controversial, but there are some features – its reliance on authoritarianism, for one – that distinguish it from ‘classic’ liberalism.

I think you would find this difficult to sustain in your own thought since you, or those within your tradition, usually identify ‘authoritarianism’ with classical liberalism, or at least with ‘actually-existing’ classical liberalism.

Further, I think it interesting that you think a distinguishing feature of ‘neo-liberalism’ is its authoritarianism which suggests the no Anglophone state (Australia, Canada, Ireland, NZ, UK, US) was neo-liberal over the last thirty years.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 10:50 am
Neoliberalism is more controversial, but there are some features – its reliance on authoritarianism, for one – that distinguish it from ‘classic’ liberalism.

So I guess that makes Rudd a Neoliberal? Authoritarianism is a characteristic of his approach policy development and to matters that half the country want to debate.

Actually, considering his autocratic style of government, in light of his attacks on so-called neoliberalism, I think your definition identifies Rudd as “deeply confused” more than anything.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 10 at 11:05 am
Public health care (of the sort enjoyed by virtually every developed nation bar the US)

Which is why upcoming generations of Americans will continue to enjoy good healthcare long after the NHS, Medicare etc has either imploded or is sucking the economic lifeblood out of the country.

Michael Sutcliffe

6 Feb 10 at 11:06 am
THR

Now, you see, your response there is a perfect example of what we really do need to rid our civic discourse of. You r post actually reads like a parody of what I am decrying. It is precisely that sort of muddled all-over-the-shop clutching at ideological straws that really turns people off contributing to civic and political discourse. All you are doing is name-calling.

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 11:07 am
I think the exercise I suggested above for reading Robert Manne’s articles could even more so be directed at THR.

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 11:09 am
db

My taxonomy is not so much concerned with people’s ideology, but rather identifiable praxis in government and political contest.

I agree wholeheartedly that ‘conservatism is a temperament’. I take your point about ‘reactionary’ being an ‘invention of the progressives’ except I have no time for this silly empty term ‘progressives’, as the original ‘progressives’ who made hay of the term ‘reactionary’ were garden-variety Communists.

Nevertheless, I do think there are political movements – and note I exclude them from Australia – who really do despise all change, and agitate to ‘go back to the way things were’. You find them in current day Russia, Iraq, the US, all over the place.

To start distinguishing between ‘classical’ and ‘neo’ liberalism, not to mention all the others, not only screams for attention to be paid to Ockham’s Razor, but reduces substantially the sum of the parts.

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 11:18 am
All you are doing is name-calling.

What rubbish. If you’re trying to push some kind of extreme nominalism onto political discourse, it’s your business to justify it, not mine.

I think you would find this difficult to sustain in your own thought since you, or those within your tradition, usually identify ‘authoritarianism’ with classical liberalism, or at least with ‘actually-existing’ classical liberalism.

Well, not to split hairs, but I would say I was talking about ‘actually existing’ neoliberalism, rather than classical liberalism.

Further, I think it interesting that you think a distinguishing feature of ‘neo-liberalism’ is its authoritarianism which suggests the no Anglophone state (Australia, Canada, Ireland, NZ, UK, US) was neo-liberal over the last thirty years.

There are degrees of authoritarianism. Every attempt to implement policy that we might term neoliberal (that I can recall) has been done either anti-democratically (i.e. Pinochet) or extra-democratically (i.e. via privatisations that are deeply unpopular, but which are outside the realm of popular control). Thatcher and Bush Jnr, for instance, were both authoritarian, relatively to their own countries’ histories.

So I guess that makes Rudd a Neoliberal? Authoritarianism is a characteristic of his approach policy development and to matters that half the country want to debate.

Let’s be clear – in theory, neoliberalism is all about ‘freedom’, ‘choice’, ‘flexibility’, etc. It’s only in practice authoritarian.

I’m not sure what makes you think that Rudd is particularly authoritarian (say, more so than Howard). His management style is probably authoritarian, but I don’t think he departs from previous PMs in this regard. I agree that he is best understood as a neoliberal in many ways, despite his infamous essay. I think his attack piece on neoliberalism was merely an attempt to score a few political points at an opportune time (the GFC), and perhaps to indulge his pretensions of being a ‘public intellectual’. There are some excellent critiques of neoliberalism available, however, Rudd’s isn’t one of them.

Which is why upcoming generations of Americans will continue to enjoy good healthcare long after the NHS, Medicare etc has either imploded or is sucking the economic lifeblood out of the country.

We’ve been over this repeatedly, so I won’t re-hash here, other than to say that the above is clearly false, and that, on average, health indicators in the US are probably worse than any developed country, and in some cases developing countries.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 11:20 am
I don’t want to rehash it either, except to say it seems strange that out 300million+ Americans only 37.3% seem to want more state healthcare. Must just be those socialists you’ve mentioned above!

Michael Sutcliffe

6 Feb 10 at 11:40 am
Good point Sutcliffe. Since state policies vary widely in the US, with ‘socialist’ policies in the NE, and free enterprise in the South (roughly speaking), it’s worth taking a look at a state-by-state analysis:

http://www.americashealthrankings.org/StateRanking.aspx

In 2009, good ol’ fashioned, DIY, free enterprise states like AL and MS ranked 48th and 50th respectively, in terms of health measures. Their communist compatriots in CT and MA ranked 7th and 3rd, respectively. So maybe the 36% of Americans who are keen on socialism are those southerners, unable to use their love of free markets to get a hip replacement or affordable pharmaceuticals.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 11:48 am
Well, not to split hairs, but I would say I was talking about ‘actually existing’ neoliberalism, rather than classical liberalism.

A strange response. I meant that the usual criticism your tradition directed at ‘actually existing’ classical liberalism before the purported rise of ‘neo-liberalism’ was that it was also authoritarian. But you knew what I meant and are simply avoiding its consequence, namely, that in your tradition, there is in fact no difference between classical liberalism and neo-liberalism.

There are degrees of authoritarianism. Every attempt to implement policy that we might term neoliberal (that I can recall) has been done either anti-democratically (i.e. Pinochet) or extra-democratically (i.e. via privatisations that are deeply unpopular, but which are outside the realm of popular control). Thatcher and Bush Jnr, for instance, were both authoritarian, relatively to their own countries’ histories.

“Extra-democratically”? You’re inventing categories on the run, THR. This could be said of almost every and any sort of policy that is more or less unpopular but that has been introduced by a democratically elected government. And so far as Thatcher and Bush Jnr and their ‘relative’ authoritarianism is concerned, that is absolute nonsense. Compared to any of their governments before or during the Second World War, they epitomise liberality.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 11:52 am
When looking at opinion research, you must ask yourself “Does this sound right?” There is a lot of what is called advocacy research around which sets out to prove something. Pretty easy really if you know how. Marketing managers have been known to do it to cover their backsides if a product or campaign fails.
Here is an example http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/02/03/america-is-different-the-evidence/
I just don’t believe it, sorry Nicolas. Then if you trace it back you see the source is Daily Kos.
I’d put the research quoted earlier in the same category.

ken nielsen

6 Feb 10 at 11:54 am
Different values in the NE i.e. strong productive work ethic, more tertiary education and professional people, a lot more ‘old money’, less diversity and higher proportion of white population, but no less love of freedom.

Furthermore, if the NE is where it all started from then there’s a reasonable conclusion that those states that held to their values are doing very well.

Michael Sutcliffe

6 Feb 10 at 11:55 am
Obama’s new socialism is working a treat:

Conservatives Maintain Edge as Top Ideological Group.

Where?

Conservatives Now Outnumber Liberals in All 50 States, Says Gallup Poll.

Thanks, Barack!

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 11:58 am
An extraordinary collection of stories from today’s newspapers – just today’s – illustrates the epic incompetence of Kevin Rudd.

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 12:00 pm
Sutcliffe, the NE also taxes and spends a lot more than the South. ‘Productive work ethic’ isn’t the best explanation for the poor results among those apparently lazy Southerners.

But you knew what I meant and are simply avoiding its consequence, namely, that in your tradition, there is in fact no difference between classical liberalism and neo-liberalism.

Dover, I don’t think this is the least bit true. You seem desperate to manufacture an argument. How many ‘classical liberal’ regimes are around at the moment? And the main critique of liberalism from ‘my tradition’ revolves around several claims, including the foudning myths of liberalism, like its claims to universality, emphasis on ‘choice’, etc. There is overlap with neoliberalism, but they’re not strictly identifiable, hence the ‘neo’ qualifier.

This could be said of almost every and any sort of policy that is more or less unpopular but that has been introduced by a democratically elected government.

Yes, and that should tell you more about our supposed ‘democracies’ than it does about my categories.

Thatcher’s fanatacism for crushing the unions, and Bush Jnr’s curtailing of civil rights all seem pretty authoritarian to me. Sure, under JFK or Nixon, police smashed more heads, but I thought things had improved there for a little while.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 12:06 pm
Dover, I don’t think this is the least bit true. You seem desperate to manufacture an argument. How many ‘classical liberal’ regimes are around at the moment? And the main critique of liberalism from ‘my tradition’ revolves around several claims, including the foudning myths of liberalism, like its claims to universality, emphasis on ‘choice’, etc. There is overlap with neoliberalism, but they’re not strictly identifiable, hence the ‘neo’ qualifier.

No, THR, I’m not desperate to manufacture an argument, I simply want to establish that your previous claim is a nonsense. I’m not talking about ‘classical liberal’ regimes “at the moment”, I’m talking about past criticisms of what were arguable classical liberal regimes in the past, before so-called ‘neoliberalism’ entered the scene, which your tradition repeatedly characterised as authoritarian. Now, if ‘classical liberal’ regimes were, according to your tradition, authoritarian then and ‘neoliberal’ regimes are authoritarian now, why the need for the qualifier? It must be something other than their ‘authoritarian’ character.

Yes, and that should tell you more about our supposed ‘democracies’ than it does about my categories.

No, it tells me something about your junk categories. Further, I doubt, for instance, that you support the re-introduction of the death penalty for certain crimes which even though this would be very popular; and you would hesitate to think that the failure to institute such a popular measure said something about our “supposed ‘democracies’”.

Thatcher’s fanatacism for crushing the unions, and Bush Jnr’s curtailing of civil rights all seem pretty authoritarian to me. Sure, under JFK or Nixon, police smashed more heads, but I thought things had improved there for a little while.

So you agree that when we compare Thatcher or Bush Jnr against any government before or during the Second World or even after, to use your own examples, Thatcher and Bush epitomise liberality.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 12:28 pm
The criminal embezzler in charge of the “climate change” industry:

V. K. Raina, of the Geological Survey of India, produced a special report demonstrating that the run-for-your-life-the-glaciers-are-melting IPCC scenario was utterly false. For his pains, Dr. Rajendra Pachauri, the self-aggrandizing old bruiser and former railroad engineer who serves as head honcho of the IPCC jet set, dismissed Mr. Raina’s research as “voodoo science.” He’s now been obliged to admit the voodoo was all on his side. But don’t worry. By 2008, Syed Hasnain’s decade-old casual chit-chat over the phone to a London journalist had become “settled science,” so Dr. Pachauri’s company TERI (The Energy & Resources Institute) approached the Carnegie Corporation for a grant to research “challenges to South Asia posed by melting Himalayan glaciers,” and was rewarded with half a million bucks. Which they promptly used to hire Syed Hasnain. In other words, professor Hasnain has landed a cushy gig researching solutions to an entirely non-existent global crisis he accidentally invented over a 15-minute phone call 10 years earlier. As they say in the glacier business, ice work if you can get it.

Pachauri is simply a criminal who should be jailed.

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 12:36 pm
It must be something other than their ‘authoritarian’ character.

Of course. Freidman, Thatcher, Pinochet and several others ought to be distinguished from Mill, for instance, on a whole range of grounds. Nobody is denying that.

Further, I doubt, for instance, that you support the re-introduction of the death penalty for certain crimes which even though this would be very popular; and you would hesitate to think that the failure to institute such a popular measure said something about our “supposed ‘democracies’”.

So you can’t discern some meaningful differences between selling off assets that are notionally owned by the public, as opposed to authorising the state to kill people? Besides, the death penalty may not be as popular as what you think. I’d be very surprised if support for it is as unanimous as opposition to most privatisation.

Thatcher and Bush epitomise liberality.

No, they don’t ‘epitomise liberality’, they’re merely less authoritarian than some of their predecessors. By the standards of their contempories in developed countries, they epitomised authoritarian thuggery.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 12:37 pm
Which civil rights did Bush Jr “curtail”?

Name them.

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 12:39 pm
Here are some provisions of the Patriot Act:

It is a crime for anyone in this country to contribute money or other material support to the activities of a group on the State Department’s terrorist watch list. Organizations are so designated on the basis of secret evidence, and their inclusion on the list cannot be challenged in court. Members of any such targeted organization can be deported even if they have not been involved in any illegal activities. The government freely admits that some of the groups it will designate are broad-based organizations engaged in lawful social, political, and humanitarian activities as well as violent activities.

The FBI can monitor and tape conversations and meetings between an attorney and a client who is in federal custody, whether the client has been convicted, charged, or merely detained as a material witness. New York City attorney Lynne Stewart (the court-appointed representative of Sheik Abdel Rahman, who was convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing) has been indicted for aiding and abetting terrorism based on conversations with her client. Her trial is set for January 2004, and the prosecution is clearly intended as a warning: Attorneys representing people charged with terrorism-related crimes will be watched as closely as the defendants.

Americans captured on foreign soil and thought to have been involved in terrorist activities abroad may be held indefinitely in a military prison and denied access to lawyers or family members. No federal court can review the reason for the detention. Such is the plight of Yaser Hamdi, detained in a Navy brig in Norfolk, Virginia, whose family and attorney made valiant efforts to gain access to him. The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a federal trial judge’s order that Hamdi be allowed to meet with the federal public defender.

The FBI can order librarians to turn over information about their patrons’ reading habits and Internet use. The librarian cannot inform the patron that this information has been provided. Librarians, on the whole, are outraged at their new role; some have taken to posting signs in the library warning users not to use the Internet, others to destroying their logs of Internet users. One librarian said to a Washington Post reporter, “This law is dangerous. . . . I read murder mysteries — does that make me a murderer? I read spy stories — does that mean I’m a spy?”

Foreign citizens charged with a terrorist-related act may be denied access to an attorney and their right to question witnesses and otherwise prepare for a defense may be severely curtailed if the Department of Justice says that’s necessary to protect national security. [§ 412] Jose Padilla, the American Muslim fingered by Ashcroft last year as a would-be “dirty bomb” builder, is a case in point.

Resident alien men from primarily Middle Eastern and Muslim countries must report for registration. And hundreds of the ones who have reported have been detained and arrested for minor immigration infractions. It recently came to light that immigration authorities are refusing to let the men appear with their attorneys, a refusal that is a violation of Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services (BCIS, formerly the INS) regulations.

Lawful foreign visitors may be photographed and fingerprinted when they enter the country and made to periodically report for questioning.

The government can conduct surveillance on the Internet and e-mail use of American citizens without any notice, upon order to the Internet service provider. Internet service providers may not move to quash such subpoenas. [§ 209 and § 210; analysis].

The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) can search any car at any airport without a showing of any suspicion of criminal activity.

The TSA can conduct full searches of people boarding airplanes and, if the passenger is a child, the child may be separated from the parent during the search. An objection by a parent or guardian to the search will put the objector at the risk of being charged with the crime of obstructing a federal law enforcement officer and tried in federal court. Travelers in Portland and Baltimore have reported such arrests.

The TSA is piloting a program to amass all available computerized information on all purchasers of airline tickets, categorize individuals according to their threat to national security, and embed the label on all boarding passes. The Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System (CAPPS II) program is designed to perform background checks on all airline passengers and assigns each passenger a “threat level.” Passengers will not be able to ascertain their classification or the basis for the classification.

The TSA distributes a “no-fly” list to airport security personnel and airlines that require refusal of boarding and detention of persons deemed to be terrorism or air piracy risks or to pose a threat to airline or passenger safety. This is an expansion of a regulation that since 1990 has looked out for threats to civil aviation. Names are added daily based upon secret criteria. Several lawsuits that challenge these regulations are now pending, some from irate passengers who were mistaken for people on the list.

[If you have been barred from flying, see the ACLU "No Fly" List Online Complaint Form See also: "Documents Show Errors in TSA's "No-Fly" Watchlist, April 2003" from the Electronic Privacy Information Center.]

American citizens and aliens can be held indefinitely in federal custody as “material witnesses,” a ploy sometimes used as a punitive measure when the government does not have sufficient basis to charge the individual with a terror-related crime. The 1984 material witness law allows the government to detain citizens at will for an arbitrary period of time to give testimony that might be useful in the prosecutions of others. A Jordanian man picked up a few days after September 11 was held more than nine months before being released. And last week a federal judge in Oregon ordered that Mike Hawash, a software engineer and long-time naturalized American citizen who has been held in solitary confinement in a federal prison for more than a month, be questioned by April 29, 2003. It is notable, however, that the judge has already conducted a secret hearing that determined Hawash’s detention to be lawful.

Immigration authorities may detain immigrants without any charges for a “reasonable period of time.” The BCIS need not account for the names or locations of the detainees, and what constitutes a “reasonable period of time” is not defined.

American colleges and universities with foreign students must report extensive information about their students to the BCIS. [§ 507 and § 508; analysis]. BCIS in turn may revoke student visas for missteps as minor as a student’s failure to get an advisor’s signature on a form that adds or drops classes. College personnel cannot notify students to correct the lapse in order to save them from deportation. To a very large extent, campus police and security personnel have become agents of the immigration authorities.

Accused terrorists labeled “unlawful combatants” can be tried in military tribunals here or abroad, under rules of procedure developed by the Pentagon and the Department of Justice. All it takes to be named an unlawful combatant is the affidavit of a Pentagon employee, who is not required to provide the rationale for his or her decision, even to a federal judge. (In the case of Yaser Hamdi, the federal appellate court ruled that it has no authority to look behind this affidavit and question the determination.) Unlawful combatants are also denied counsel and contact with family members. In fact, hundreds of “unlawful combatants” are still being held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, without attorneys, without family contact, and under conditions said by some to be tantamount to physical and psychological torture. A federal court ruled in March that these persons had no access to the federal courts since they were on Cuban, not American, soil.

A warrant to conduct widespread surveillance on any American thought to be associated with terrorist activities can be obtained from a secret panel of judges, upon the affidavit of a Department of Justice official. If arrested as a result of the surveillance (as was the case with the attorney, Lynne Stewart), the defendant has no right to know the facts supporting the warrant request.

The FBI can conduct aerial surveillance of individuals and homes without a warrant, and can install video cameras in places where lawful demonstrations and protests are held. Facial recognition computer programs are used to identify persons the FBI deems suspicious for political reasons. An ACLU employee in South Carolina was recently indicted for the federal offense of being in a “restricted area” at the Columbia, South Carolina airport in October 2002, when President Bush made a political campaign appearance. (The South Carolina AG, who happens to be the son of retired Senator Strom Thurmond, authorized the indictment.)

http://www.ratical.com/ratville/CAH/theOtherWar.html

THR

6 Feb 10 at 12:46 pm
Of course. Freidman, Thatcher, Pinochet and several others ought to be distinguished from Mill, for instance, on a whole range of grounds. Nobody is denying that.

The comparison of Mill with Friedman would be interesting, not least because the Mill of ‘Representative Government’ was more authoritarian than Friedman. But to compare Mill with Thatcher, Pinochet, or other political leaders is tendentiousness in the extreme (I wouldn’t even compare or speak of Thatcher and Pinochet in the same breath); you need to compare the governments that existed in Mill’s day, or those he was a member of, with the government of Thatcher, etc. I still see no reason for distinguishing the liberalism of the 19th C or early 20th C with that of the second half of the 20th.

So you can’t discern some meaningful differences between selling off assets that are notionally owned by the public, as opposed to authorising the state to kill people? Besides, the death penalty may not be as popular as what you think. I’d be very surprised if support for it is as unanimous as opposition to most privatisation.

So far as this argument is concerned what is meaningful is the popularity of the policies, not the difference between the two policies. I see that you have more or less surrendered your previous argument.

No, they don’t ‘epitomise liberality’, they’re merely less authoritarian than some of their predecessors. By the standards of their contempories in developed countries, they epitomised authoritarian thuggery.

I see that you’ve surrendered this argument as well. You, firstly, argued that Thatcher and Bush Jnr “were both authoritarian, relatively to their own countries histories’” only to abandon this by now comparing them to other developed countries. Which one’s? France, Germany, Greece, Spain, Canada? Sorry, but even in comparison to the “standards” of these countries both hardly epitomised “authoritarian thuggery”.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 1:08 pm
So far as this argument is concerned what is meaningful is the popularity of the policies, not the difference between the two policies. I see that you have more or less surrendered your previous argument.</i<

Not true, dave. People are normally protected from some measures, in spite of their alleged popularity. You can't start lynching Jews of homosexuals in Australia, even if 80% of people support it. Dover knows this, and is just blustering.

Sorry, but even in comparison to the “standards” of these countries both hardly epitomised “authoritarian thuggery”.

See the Patriot Act above. See also Thatcher’s treatment of unions. There are few few, if any precedents for this, in places like Australia, Canada, France, etc from the 80s or 90s onwards.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 1:12 pm
Sorry, thought I was addressing dave, was actually addressing dover.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 1:13 pm
Bobby Kennedy bugged Martin Luther King’s bedroom, Bill Clinton sent dozens of jihadists to be tortured to death in Eygpt, Al Gore was the most gung-ho advocate of extraordinary rendition on record, Obama sought to ban Fox News from the White House but, strangely, all lefties see is BUSHITLER – whose presidency is associated with the most free-wheeling, liberty to do and say anything against the government in US history. The Patriot Act actually sought to formalise what the authorities had theretofore been doing anyway or are you really saying, THR, that the FBI only started to “conduct aerial surveillance of individuals and homes” under Bush?

In fact, hundreds of “unlawful combatants” are still being held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, without attorneys, without family contact, and under conditions said by some to be tantamount to physical and psychological torture.

Said by some… LOL. Said by lefties, in other words. Gitmo is in fact one of the world’s best-run supermax prisons. Australian supermax facilities are far more brutal. Legally, terrorists caught in theatres of war may licitly be held indefinitely. Bush sought another alternative – more appropriate than the already failed “law enforcement” model – but was blocked by liberal lawyers (many of whom now work for Eric Holder’s DoJ).

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 1:15 pm
Regarding Thatcher, she doesn’t even rate compared to Blair and Brown who have turned Britain into an Orwellian police state that is now the most electronically monitored country on earth.

Strangely, lefties are silent about this.

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 1:18 pm
The ‘Look over there, a Democrat!’ routine won’t fly, CL. First, I don’t claim that the Dems are any better, and second, the Democrats can hardly be blamed for what the Bush Administration did. As for ‘formalising’ – isn’t this instutitionalising and normalising things that ought to be regarded with suspicion? I don’t see how Bush’s formalising away the loss of citizens’ rights is a point in his favour.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 1:19 pm
Strangely, lefties are silent about this.

Not really. In Australia, Rundle and Sparrow have written about it. UK lefties are routinely critical of both Blair and Brown, whom they regard with contempt.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 1:20 pm
Not true, dave. People are normally protected from some measures, in spite of their alleged popularity. You can’t start lynching Jews of homosexuals in Australia, even if 80% of people support it. Dover knows this, and is just blustering.

Sorry, THR, but you’re merely avoiding the problem that you raised by emphasising popularity. You decried privatisation as “extra-democratic” because you imagined it to be deeply unpopular even though the governments that introduced it were democratically-elected, and often re-elected, and you suggested that this said something about our “supposed ‘democracies’”. The only one blustering here is yourself.

See the Patriot Act above. See also Thatcher’s treatment of unions. There are few few, if any precedents for this, in places like Australia, Canada, France, etc from the 80s or 90s onwards.

Many of the union regulations that were abolished were themselves ‘authoritarian’, as where the activities of the unionists. The Patriot Act was a response to the murder of 3000 individuals; it may have been an over-reaction but it was hardly “authoritarian thuggery”. More to the point, the analogous anti-terrorism legislation introduced by the French and UK, for instance, is not very different at all to that introduced by the US following 9/11. Thus, Thatcher and Bush Jnr do not appear to me to be in a category all their own so far as ‘authoritarianism’ is concerned.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 1:32 pm
Looks like the transfer of police powers from Britain to north Ireland will now become a reality. This is perhaps the biggest step towards re-uniting the country under one flag, which is inevitable.

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 1:37 pm
Sorry, THR, but you’re merely avoiding the problem that you raised by emphasising popularity.

No, you’ve missed the point entirely. By your logic, everything a government does is by its nature ‘democratic’, and cannot be otherwise.

Thus, Thatcher and Bush Jnr do not appear to me to be in a category all their own so far as ‘authoritarianism’ is concerned.

This is all borne of a misunderstanding on your part. My point was that one feature of neoliberalism was, in practice, its ability to co-exist with authoritarian regimes. This has happened in Pinochet’s Chile, Suharto’s Indonesia, in contemporary China to an extent, etc. Thus, Thatcher and Bush are not in a category alone – far from it – they are the Westernised version of the phenomenon I’m describing. If you wish to describe contemporary China as ‘classical liberal’, that’s your business, but you might find some classic liberals disagree with you.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 1:40 pm
THR is correct in terms of the fact that some rights have been curtailed and processes removed. For instance, increased surveillance and the power to detain more easily and with some standard things removed like the length of time before charges are laid.
The question is, how much is too much. When the US sends a drone to kill a bunch of Al Qaida operatives who are driving across a middle-eastern desert, there’s not a lot of “due process” involved, in the sense of attorneys and the reading of rights and so on. Similarly, if some boats full of armed foreign soldiers landed and tried to claim ownership of a part of the continental US, it would be treated as an invasion and they would be killed; even though they were on US soil. The question is, who is entitled to these rights and processes, and under what circumstances? There’s no immutable moral law that says how long you should be detained before being charged. It’s really just all what feels right, and what seems just.
Obviously, I’m not providing answers here. Maybe I’m muddying the waters, but the waters are pretty muddy to begin with.

daddy dave

6 Feb 10 at 1:58 pm
There have been no processes removed or curtailed. Legally, the US has no obligation to release captured terrorists until the cessation of hostilities. It was Bush who brought forward the idea of military tribunals to give detainees some semblance of process. This was sabotaged by the terrorists’ lawyers who preferred to win for their “clients” trials in civil court to which they were not (and are not) entitled.

The Bush era will be remembered as a high water mark of free-wheeling freedom to say and do almost anything against the powers-that-be. On the other hand, the Democrats’ long cherished desire to censor the US political media (under the Orwellian name of the “Fairness Doctrine”) has never really gone away. If Obama’s chilling Chavez-like attack on the Supreme Court in his SOTU is any guide, the Democrats are also keen to restrict free speech more generally by legislation.

Dave, that’s precisely the ridiculous hypocrisy at the heart of Obama’s “law enforcement” model of combatting terrorism. The US now Mirandises terrorists in the US (to impress Europe and placate the Democrats’ nutroots) but kills them by the bushel with drones and special forces abroad. Shouldn’t they be arrested, questioned, given lawyers, a phone call etc?

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 2:14 pm
No, you’ve missed the point entirely. By your logic, everything a government does is by its nature ‘democratic’, and cannot be otherwise.

I haven’t missed any point, THR. Anything a duly-elected government does is by its very nature democratic, excepting, of course, the dissolution of its democratic character which is denoted by regular elections and a universal franchise. It cannot be otherwise.

This is all borne of a misunderstanding on your part. My point was that one feature of neoliberalism was, in practice, its ability to co-exist with authoritarian regimes. This has happened in Pinochet’s Chile, Suharto’s Indonesia, in contemporary China to an extent, etc. Thus, Thatcher and Bush are not in a category alone – far from it – they are the Westernised version of the phenomenon I’m describing. If you wish to describe contemporary China as ‘classical liberal’, that’s your business, but you might find some classic liberals disagree with you.

No, the misunderstanding is all yours. Firstly, you purported to offer a distinction between classical liberalism and neo-liberalism that was specious even within your own tradition, since it has since the late 19th C considered liberal regimes of the late 19th and early 20th C authoritarian already. And so the purported appearance of liberalism strangely co-existing with ‘authoritarian’ regimes in the 20th C would have been hardly surprising and shouldn’t have required a new name. Secondly, the mere fact that a regime introduces a market reform does mean that it can be characterised as (classical or neo-)liberal, as if Bush’s or Obama’s US are comparable to contemporary China. And thirdly, I don’t want to describe contemporary China as ‘classical liberal’ any more than I would want to describe it as ‘neo-liberal’; that is a ploy of one of your own parlour games, not mine.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 2:18 pm
CL, I agree that it’s ridiculous and hypocritical the way there are now two sets of rules. It’s got to the point where US gives terrorists due process, but if they were to release them to their home country, may then bomb the crap out of them with impunity with no due process in sight.
I guess I was thinking of the effect on the citizenry in US and also Australia, where the left is on stronger ground. However my point (or one of my points) is that the left acts like the current procedures arrived on a stone tablet from the mountain.

daddy dave

6 Feb 10 at 2:18 pm
Yeah Dave, it actually incentivises homeland attacks: ‘hey, kill people in the US and we’ll give you three squares, Johnnie Cochrane and your own daily talk show. In Afghanistan, we’ll just drop a bomb on you. Your choice.’

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 2:26 pm
Anything a duly-elected government does is by its very nature democratic

This is debauching the currency of ‘democracy’ in a manner typical to rightists. By you definition, ‘democracy’ is a smug cover that justifies and teflon-coats anything politicians decide to do. Democracy in dover-land is basically anything, in other words.

One thing it’s not, however, is rule of the people.

Firstly, you purported to offer a distinction between classical liberalism and neo-liberalism that was specious even within your own tradition, since it has since the late 19th C considered liberal regimes of the late 19th and early 20th C authoritarian already.

It’s more than a little presumptuous for you to be pontificating on ‘my tradition’. You’re also taking the narrowest possible view of things.
Yes, ‘market reforms’ are comparable, irrespective of the regime implementing them. Yes, they can be classified as neoliberal in many cases, and there’s plenty of quality literature that has done precisely that. This isn’t the same as saying the the US is equivalent to China in terms of governmental abuses. Denying the existence of neoliberalism is nothing other than an extreme and selective nominalism, designed to obscure the similar economic policies of a whole range of regimes.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 2:27 pm
Vid: history’s Most Gifted Orator pronounces corpsman as “corpse-man.” Twice.

Barry Quayle.

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 3:05 pm
“Anything a duly-elected government does is by its very nature democratic, excepting, of course, the dissolution of its democratic character which is denoted by regular elections and a universal franchise. It cannot be otherwise.”

I don’t think so. Democracy is primarily about the dispersal of power. While it’s a process, not an act, acts can have the democratic characteristics, and those are far more than:

“its democratic character which is denoted by regular elections and a universal franchise”

That’s only representative democracy. Which is at least a dilution of ‘pure’ democracy, at most a parody.

Any act by a duly-elected democratic government that centralises or concentrates political power could be termed undemocratic. That’s not to say that’s always a bad thing, of course.

Jarrah

6 Feb 10 at 3:05 pm
<i?This is debauching the currency of ‘democracy’ in a manner typical to rightists. By you definition, ‘democracy’ is a smug cover that justifies and teflon-coats anything politicians decide to do. Democracy in dover-land is basically anything, in other words.

One thing it’s not, however, is rule of the people.

Don’t be hysterical, THR. It is neither “debauching the currency” nor is it providing “smug cover” or “teflon-coating” for anything elected politicians decide to do. What it does is merely recognise that anything a duly-elected government does, save the dissolution of democracy itself, cannot be anything other than democratic since democracy does not denote anything apart from regular elections and universal suffrage.

It’s more than a little presumptuous for you to be pontificating on ‘my tradition’.

It’s no more presumptuous then you’re continual pontificating about “rightists”.

You’re also taking the narrowest possible view of things. Yes, ‘market reforms’ are comparable, irrespective of the regime implementing them. Yes, they can be classified as neoliberal in many cases, and there’s plenty of quality literature that has done precisely that. This isn’t the same as saying the the US is equivalent to China in terms of governmental abuses. Denying the existence of neoliberalism is nothing other than an extreme and selective nominalism, designed to obscure the similar economic policies of a whole range of regimes.

No, I’m just unwilling to let you or anyone else, even when they are writing in the quality literature, from using the broadest definitions they themselves have made available for nothing other than ideological purposes. If you are going to restrict the comparison to the implementation of market reforms, then the comparison is inert because nothing can be said beyond the comparison of market reforms. But, of course, the comparison is not made so that the comparison remains on this plane alone, it is made so that the government abuses of one country can be associated with its own market reforms or those of another, even though market reforms and government abuses are independent phenomena. Moreover, the many market reforms you have in mind can be described as liberal without our having to invent or employ the neologism, neo-liberal. And, no, denying the existence of neo-liberalism is nothing of the sort; as I’ve said, we can describe these reforms as liberal without having to invent a new word. It would be preferable, I suggest, to refer to them neither as liberal or neo-liberal but simply as market reforms.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 3:06 pm
Jarrah has hit the nail on the head here:

That’s only representative democracy. Which is at least a dilution of ‘pure’ democracy, at most a parody.

Dover, on the other hand, says:

What it does is merely recognise that anything a duly-elected government does, save the dissolution of democracy itself, cannot be anything other than democratic since democracy does not denote anything apart from regular elections and universal suffrage.

By this definition, ‘emergency powers’ that accompany a suspension of normal law, or martial rule, are democratic according to Dover. Boris Yelstin having the army fire artillery at his own parliament is democratic by this nonsensical definition.

And the objection to the term ‘neoliberal’ here boils down to the fact that you don’t like how it’s used, since ‘neoliberal’ regimes have all been, without exception, run by ruthless prats. This is a ridiculous word game, and I might as well deny that communism exists since ‘communist’ regimes bore little resemblance to Marxian doctrine, and since communist leaders can already be described as ‘dictators’, or, to borrow from your euphemism, as ‘anti-market reformers’.

THR

6 Feb 10 at 3:16 pm
Quote from THR, rejecting my simple political taxonomy:

I think there’s a defence to be had of the terms ’social democracy’ and ‘neoliberalism’. Social democracy/democratic socialism refers, IMO, to old-school laborism, Fabianism, etc. It’s a reasonable way of classifying socialist policies of the sort that exist in Australia, Canada, and elsewhere.

Neoliberalism is more controversial, but there are some features – its reliance on authoritarianism, for one – that distinguish it from ‘classic’ liberalism.

In a couple of sentences anywhere from six to nine ideological categories flung together.

You see THR, that is not political discourse; it is not even thinking; it is just typing.

Over December/January, I was on a work ‘sabattical’ and used a lot of the time getting up to date on new technology, popular culture, and generally chilling. This was how I discovered all these blogs discussing politics, current affairs, etc.

I have to say, I never realized there actually existed people who think spouting endless lists of politically ideological neologisms actually amounts to anything whatsoever, let alone political engagement, let alone actual involvement.

Further investigation reveals those blogs are overwhelmingly run by university academics. My experience is that while Australian universities can be proud of many areas, the one area where they should be basically be closed down in Social Science.

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 3:17 pm
I don’t think so. Democracy is primarily about the dispersal of power. While it’s a process, not an act, acts can have the democratic characteristics, and those are far more than:

“its democratic character which is denoted by regular elections and a universal franchise”

That’s only representative democracy. Which is at least a dilution of ‘pure’ democracy, at most a parody.

Any act by a duly-elected democratic government that centralises or concentrates political power could be termed undemocratic. That’s not to say that’s always a bad thing, of course.

No, democracy is an answer to the question: Who has the right to rule. According to it, the answer to the above question is: the people. Now, the people can rule in a number of ways, one of these is through mediated through elected representatives, i.e. representative government. The varieties are no more pure than the other so long as they satisfy the answer above. So far as the centralisation or concentration of power are concerned, neither directly or indirectly threatens the right of the people to rule because a right to rule has nothing to do with power but with authority.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 3:19 pm
By this definition, ‘emergency powers’ that accompany a suspension of normal law, or martial rule, are democratic according to Dover. Boris Yelstin having the army fire artillery at his own parliament is democratic by this nonsensical definition.

THR, that you have to use, as an example, a country in the middle of a coup exercising “emergency powers” in order to supposedly render my definition “nonsensical” shows how desperate you’ve become. BTW, I may have erred in describing the policies of a democratic regime as democratic rather than the regime itself which was my intention. The qualifier ‘democratic’ describes a certain sort of regime, not a particular type of policy; that has been my point all along.

And the objection to the term ‘neoliberal’ here boils down to the fact that you don’t like how it’s used, since ‘neoliberal’ regimes have all been, without exception, run by ruthless prats. This is a ridiculous word game, and I might as well deny that communism exists since ‘communist’ regimes bore little resemblance to Marxian doctrine, and since communist leaders can already be described as ‘dictators’, or, to borrow from your euphemism, as ‘anti-market reformers’.

So you admit that you employ the term, not to compare market reforms, but simply to associate market reforms with government abuses, gratuitous references to the quality literature notwithstanding. Yes, this is a ridiculous word game you’ve entertained us with THR, I agree. But, alas, no, ‘actually-existing’ communism was a near perfect replica of Marxist doctrine, as Lenin never tired of arguing.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 3:34 pm
The qualifier ‘democratic’ describes a certain sort of regime, not a particular type of policy; that has been my point all along.

No, you’ve turned democracy into a form devoid of content, whereby the likes of Yeltsin and Putin are now good democrats.

So you admit that you employ the term, not to compare market reforms, but simply to associate market reforms with government abuses, gratuitous references to the quality literature notwithstanding.

Neo-liberal economics have often (but ont always) gone hand-in-hand with government abuses. At this poinit, I’d be happy to portray the relation between the two as correlational, whilst noting the universal unpopularity of the former.

But, alas, no, ‘actually-existing’ communism was a near perfect replica of Marxist doctrine, as Lenin never tired of arguing.

You do have a rather charming knack for taking Russian leaders at their word, no?

THR

6 Feb 10 at 3:40 pm
No, you’ve turned democracy into a form devoid of content, whereby the likes of Yeltsin and Putin are now good democrats.

Rubbish. I can distinguish a democracy from a monarchy, an autocracy, or oligarchy, etc. The word doesn’t allow one to make other distinctions, THR; that is simply a bridge too far. So far as Yeltsin and Putin are concerned, I don’t know if they were “good” democrats, but I do recognise that they were the leaders of fledgling democratic regimes.

Neo-liberal economics have often (but ont always) gone hand-in-hand with government abuses. At this poinit, I’d be happy to portray the relation between the two as correlational, whilst noting the universal unpopularity of the former.

You haven’t demonstrated any correlation, THR; and the former is not universally unpopular, not in the slightest and yet you continue to peddle this ridiculous word even though you cannot describe in what manner the market relations that obtain in liberal economies are any different to those that obtain in ‘neo-liberal’ economies.

You do have a rather charming knack for taking Russian leaders at their word, no?

It is equalled by the charming knack I have in reading between the lines of certain German theoreticians.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 3:58 pm
THR

I am a bit confused by your taxonomy. Are you stressing over-riding ideologies as projects or merely focusing on this or that individual policy. From the two quotes that follow, it appears that for you “ideology” is only relevant at the level of individual policy.

THR: There are degrees of authoritarianism. Every attempt to implement policy that we might term neoliberal (that I can recall) has been done either anti-democratically (i.e. Pinochet) or extra-democratically (i.e. via privatisations that are deeply unpopular, but which are outside the realm of popular control). Thatcher and Bush Jnr, for instance, were both authoritarian, relatively to their own countries’ histories.

and then this response to Michael Sutcliffe:

Since state policies vary widely in the US, with ’socialist’ policies in the NE, and free enterprise in the South (roughly speaking), it’s worth taking a look at a state-by-state analysis.

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 4:32 pm
dover beach

This quote of yours is defining ‘democracy’ is bang on, and would hard to improve:

No, democracy is an answer to the question: Who has the right to rule. According to it, the answer to the above question is: the people. Now, the people can rule in a number of ways, one of these is through mediated through elected representatives, i.e. representative government. The varieties are no more pure than the other so long as they satisfy the answer above

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 4:35 pm
there is in fact no difference between classical liberalism and neo-liberalism.
.
Context?
.
Classical liberalism was originally of the Left, as in the force for reform. Then it moved centrewise after the Reform Act. Neoliberalism occurred on the Right, was accompanied by a resurgence of religion, family values and military patriotism.
.
The free speech, free thought, freedom of lifestyle, anti-imperialist aspects of classical liberalism were, shall we say, less emphasized by the avatars of neoliberalism.

Adrien

6 Feb 10 at 5:27 pm
Adrien

With all due respect, they are four of the most fatuous sentences I have read on blogs for some time. It is precisely this type of Un-thinking that accounts for the bog of much political discourse in Australia.

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 5:34 pm
Classical liberalism was originally of the Left, as in the force for reform. Then it moved centrewise after the Reform Act. Neoliberalism occurred on the Right, was accompanied by a resurgence of religion, family values and military patriotism.

Adrien, firstly, we were speaking of market relations; I’m yet to note a difference so far as this was concerned being presented. Secondly, good luck trying to convince me and everyone else that Smith, etc. were members of the ‘Left’. Thirdly, current adherents of classical liberalism are also the people that would otherwise be referred to as neo-liberal. Fourthly, the resurgence of religion, family values and patriotism are only contingently related to classical liberals and ‘neo-liberals’; and many of the boosters of the former couldn’t care less about markets. Fifthly, they are; many of the people that defend “free speech, free thought, freedom of lifestyle, anti-imperialist aspects of classical liberalism” are also often referred to as ‘neo-liberals’ because they also defend free markets. Finally, your use of ‘neo-liberal’ in this context seems to be synonymous with the use of that other favourite neologism, ‘neo-conservatism’.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 6:02 pm
Adrien,

You need to expand on this industry policy schtick. You didn’t explain it much further and we agreed there was plenty of other causes of the agricultural and industrial revolution. The thing is about industry policy is that it cannot change endowments and comparative advantages itself – not as far as anything I’ve ever seen. Ag prices don’t change production patterns much, rainfall and land suitability are so strong as determinants. Part of te reason why Britain may have had a cloth boom was that Scotland was so well suited to wool production. Of course this was derived demand, but the endowments obviously didn’t change because of industry policy. The English also had a history of cloth production going back to the Norman invasion and the Angevin Empire.

I don’t think you’re incorrect yet, I want to know more, you might just be overstating the case for the industry policy brought in by the Elizabethans.

Semi Regular Libertarian

6 Feb 10 at 6:17 pm
“The varieties are no more pure than the other”

Of course they are! Strict democracy is when political power is universal and equal. Keep in mind that we don’t have to be talking about nation states here. My household is a democracy – everyone has an equal say in decisions about the collective.

Such a formulation is absurd and unworkable on large scales, so we have various approximations of strict democracy. Yet somehow we attach the same moral certitude (or authority) to their workings as we would to the pure form. That’s a fantasy.

“So far as the centralisation or concentration of power are concerned, neither directly or indirectly threatens the right of the people to rule because a right to rule has nothing to do with power but with authority.”

I believe I have some idea of what you’re driving at here, but it will be easier if you elaborate.

Jarrah

6 Feb 10 at 6:19 pm
*The English also had a history of cloth production going back to the Norman invasion and the Angevin Empire.*…

I believe there was some connection with traditional large scale centres in Norman or Angevin possessions in Normandy, Brittany and Flanders. I think the Gallocentric rulers of England and their commercially successful Lords exported the capital, technology and techniques over the channel.

Semi Regular Libertarian

6 Feb 10 at 6:24 pm
This took a while.

The formal apology from a Japanese CEO.

This time I was looking for the tears but I haven’t seen if the Toyota CEO gave the crying apology ritual.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704533204575047370633234414.html?mod=rss_Today%27s_Most_Popular

He did the bow but no tears?

JC

6 Feb 10 at 6:41 pm
Jarrah

While I by no means wish to argue the ultimate authority of the past, let alone origins, nevertheless, the etymology of democracy and its historical context do give us a lot to build on.

The Greek demo.kratia

A deme was any one of the 200 or so small local districts – villages, towns – that made up the countryside of Attica outside Athens from at least early 6th century BC. And this is precisely the origin of our own system of electoral districts.

The [male] citizen residents of Athens (which always included the Attica countryside) became demes on their 18th birthday, which among other privileges entitled them to vote, not only for offices in their particular deme (ie local government), but also in the federal/national Athenian assemblies and so on.

Thus, these Athenian citizens were known collectively as the demos.

Kratos simply meant power

Thus demokratia meant power of/by the demes – power by the whole citizenry, not just one person or an elite cadre.

Therefore, it is crucial, if a democracy is to exist, that all citizens are equally entitled a say in not only collective decisions, but also all the institutions of government from juries to magistries and on.

Peter Patton

6 Feb 10 at 6:46 pm
Of course they are! Strict democracy is when political power is universal and equal. Keep in mind that we don’t have to be talking about nation states here. My household is a democracy – everyone has an equal say in decisions about the collective.

Jarrah, you’re talking nonsense. The only reason you can describe your ‘household’ as a democracy is because you have an equal say (elections and universal suffrage) in the running of the household, not because you each enjoy the same quantum of political power which no one does, in your household or anywhere else. But even this analogy muddies the waters since we’re not talking about the administrative/ managerial engagement that is annexed to government/ household but the making, amending and repealing of laws.

Such a formulation is absurd and unworkable on large scales, so we have various approximations of strict democracy. Yet somehow we attach the same moral certitude (or authority) to their workings as we would to the pure form. That’s a fantasy.

Strictly speaking, democracy simply denotes the people’s right to rule; nothing else. Now there can be varieties of this without having to distinguish between pure and alloyed forms of democracy. The fantasy is imagining that democracy means something more than this. BTW, authority is not certitude; its not something you have but something that you or an institution enjoy because other people recognise and acknowledgement it in you or the institution.

I believe I have some idea of what you’re driving at here, but it will be easier if you elaborate.

What a government can do (power) is different from what it has the right to do (authority). The Romans recognised this difference by referring to potentia and potestas/ or auctoritas; us, moderns, unfortunately conflated potentia and potestas, rather than potestas/ auctoritas, but even these latter two words suggest important differences. Centralisation or concentration can make government more effective (or powerful) without increasing its authority.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 6:52 pm
Speaking of etymology:

Pull apart “environmentalism” and you have “environ” (surround) and “mentalism” (pertaining to mind and mental state of the individual)… does make you wonder.

- Rog, suggesting environmentalists are scatterbrained, August 18, 2006.

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 6:55 pm
CL, this will make you glad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8500443.stm

It looks like the bell is tolling for AGW, politically speaking.

dover_beach

6 Feb 10 at 6:59 pm
history’s Most Gifted Orator pronounces corpsman as “corpse-man.”
.
The man who is commander-in-chief of the largest military force the world has ever seen is ignorant about basic facts about the military forces under him. Surely people of any politicl persuasion – including 2008 Obama supporters – should be worried about such ignorance.

daddy dave

6 Feb 10 at 7:06 pm
I’ll bet Tipper and Al Gore are trawling the internet looking for their next crusade

tal

6 Feb 10 at 7:06 pm
Corpse-man isn’t that a zombie?

tal

6 Feb 10 at 7:07 pm
It looks like the bell is tolling for AGW, politically speaking.
.
wow, 10 percent of the population switched in 2 months. That’s a big result if it’s reliable.

daddy dave

6 Feb 10 at 7:13 pm
Controy has banned the display of small female breasts in case it encourages pedophilia.

http://blog.libertarian.org.au/

This is a dude that thinks seeing small female breasts is a gateway to child molestation.

They really have to fucking go.

JC

6 Feb 10 at 7:13 pm
Here’s more.

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/01/28/australian-censor-bo.html

JC

6 Feb 10 at 7:14 pm
LOL:

Funnily enough, while Rudd can’t find the time to appear on Insiders more than once in two years, he can manage to appear on Channel 7’s Sunrise weekly, joining his very friendly mate David Koch…

But rely on “Kochie” to keep up the pressure – or not. Typical exchange: Rudd blathers about some government program, and “Kochie” chirrups, “Oh, that’s a good idea!

Good boy, Kochie. Have another dog biscuit, and Rudd will be back next week to feed you another.

C.L.

6 Feb 10 at 8:51 pm
Maybe Phil found out where Rog lived.

AJ

6 Feb 10 at 9:00 pm
Since state policies vary widely in the US, with ’socialist’ policies in the NE, and free enterprise in the South (roughly speaking), it’s worth taking a look at a state-by-state analysis.

Yep, THR, he’s a funny one. I didn’t notice any mention of California or New York, which seemed strange, because they’re wealthy states that have done the socialist thing. (well, California was wealthy once.)

Michael Sutcliffe

6 Feb 10 at 9:31 pm
Hello Chaps, I saw this “rap” over at Mr Eugenides and I thought it might be of interest to you.

“Fear the Boom and Bust” a Hayek vs. Keynes Rap Anthem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk)

Mild Colonial Boy, Esq.

6 Feb 10 at 10:10 pm
had a couple comments about the porn thing – but kind of hard for discussion on that not to get caught by spam catcher… can someone push it through?

Fleeced

6 Feb 10 at 11:39 pm
An ego verging on the pathological. Obama cites woman in St Louis who died of breast cancer to promote his failed health care “reform.” She put off having exams, despite free exams being available in St Louis. The main point: he said the former campaign worker insisted she’ll be buried “in an Obama T-shirt.” Audience groans, laughs. Barry looks unamused, stunned.

Lefty site here also uses this woman as a political prop, gets hammered by commenters. Best one:

So is this article saying that her Missouri Medicaid (”a public option, if you will”) didn’t cover the oncologist’s recommended treatment? Why not? Why does the author make it seem that only the private insurance company was cruel, and not the “public option” as well?

And another question: How could her fellow campaigners allow her to suffer this way? Couldn’t you all have kicked in some money to help her? Surely you Aggressive Progressives, who care so deeply and passionately about others, could have coughed up some of your own money to help this poor woman. What is the matter with you?

And you have the nerve to call Republicans heartless.

Maybe your group consists of only five people. Let us hope so.

Her legacy: Cremated in an Obama t-shirt — someone who dines on Kobe beef, parties it up while people are suffering, and pisses our money away on his endless jaunts. How sad. Truly pathetic, in the most tragic sense of the word.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 2:42 am
Another day, another lie from Ratty Rudd:

The subject: Belinda Neal.

TROUBLE-PRONE Labor backbencher Belinda Neal has apparently defied Kevin Rudd, revealing that she never undertook an anger management course after all.

Despite the Prime Minister insisting the angry Central Coast MP had displayed a “pattern of unacceptable behaviour” and needed help, Ms Neal said last week it was rubbish – she had never needed treatment for anger issues, and never got it.

Ms Neal, who is under siege from internal party challengers who want her seat, admitted seeking “counselling”, but not for her fiery temper.

She added: “There was no request from the Prime Minister for that at all.”

This astonishing admission is at odds with what voters were told by Mr Rudd.

Also see Julie Bishop’s amusing riff on the phrase “unacceptable pattern of behaviour.”

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 2:53 am
CL – after a brief post-SOTU bounce, Obama is now more unpopular than ever before.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

Michael Fisk

7 Feb 10 at 4:59 am
Rudd is now sending the carbon police to your door.

ALL Australian homes will soon have to undergo a mandatory energy-efficiency assessment costing up to $1500 per property.

The assessment has to be done before any property can be sold or rented under new laws to tackle carbon emissions.

The mandatory assessment – being drafted into law by the federal and state governments – will rate homes by an energy efficiency star system, similar to the ratings given to fridges and washing machines.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 12:40 pm
ALL Australian homes will soon have to undergo a mandatory energy-efficiency assessment costing up to $1500 per property.

It’s as if they want to lose the next election.

dover_beach

7 Feb 10 at 1:00 pm
The IPCC’s chief embezzler and sex novelist is back in the news:

Rajendra Pachauri: head of UN climate change panel clocks up half a million miles of air travel.

The embattled head of the United Nations’ climate change panel clocked up more than half a million miles of air travel in a year and a half as he travelled the world warning of the global warming threat, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.

On his international missions, Rajendra Pachauri, the chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), called for radical action to stave off environmental disaster.

He urged people to eat less meat, pay aviation taxes and even ban giving iced water in restaurants. But in order to get his message across, the former railway engineer, who lives in Delhi, created an enormous carbon footprint of his own.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 1:02 pm
It’s as if they want to lose the next election.

Or they’re quite sure the Libs are too stupid to capitalise on it.

Michael Sutcliffe

7 Feb 10 at 1:10 pm
ALL Australian homes will soon have to undergo a mandatory energy-efficiency assessment costing up to $1500 per property.

Good . Bring it on.

jc

7 Feb 10 at 1:12 pm
A touching story: remembering the great Ronald Reagan.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 1:13 pm
And here’s the very true to life tribute to the essence of Reagan’s greatness. In this scene, the Ronnie character goes for a walk in the woods ’cause he can’t bear the grief. The funeral, being for his country’s innocence.

Adrien

7 Feb 10 at 1:25 pm
A sex novelist CL? Egad! A sex novelist. Somebody please think of the children.

Adrien

7 Feb 10 at 1:28 pm
The funeral, being for his country’s innocence.
I presume you’re being ironic.

daddy dave

7 Feb 10 at 1:51 pm
Another scandalous exaggeration appears to have been uncovered, first appearing in WGII and then was included and highlighted in the Synthesis Report:

Similar in effect to the erroneous “2035″ claim – the year the IPCC claimed that Himalayan glaciers were going to melt – in this instance we find that the IPCC has wrongly claimed that in some African countries, yields from rain-fed agriculture could be reduced by up to 50 percent by 2020.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2010/02/and-now-for-africagate.html

dover_beach

7 Feb 10 at 1:54 pm
Jeez, Dover. So this is another mistake conveniently inserted of behalf of another NGO?

It’s like the entire IPCC report was prepared by Tim Lambert with lies, distortions and generalized lamberting in every section of the report.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 1:59 pm
Well, you might be comfortable with a train fancier – who writes dime novels of the Penthouse letters-page variety – telling the world to spend trillions on “climate change,” Adrien, but not many other people are. The Reagan story is touching to a normal person but I know that’s all leftiness all the time with you. A man who escaped the Democrat Party’s terrorist wing in the south came to Washington and, 50 years later, ended up in the Oval Office. It’s a very nice story.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 1:59 pm
The funeral, being for his country’s innocence.

The US didn’t have a lot of ‘innocence’ to lose by that point. It’s like saying Jenna Jameson lost her virginity at sex partner number 598.

THR

7 Feb 10 at 2:00 pm
She’s had 598 sex partners? Wow.

I can’t imagine how it would feel for partner 598.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 2:03 pm
As for Reagan – his economic policies assisted the rich alone. He funded and murder conducted by the most horrific of deathsquads in Central America, and showed his utter contempt for international law (and human life) by mining the coast of Nicaragua. His role in the collapse of the USSR is normally overstated – at the time of the collapse, the US still believed that the hardline communists were going to see the crisis through, and remain in power.
As a leader, he was a chesy b-grade puppet who makes even Obama look like Brando in comparison. If Reagan is the best hero the GOP can muster, then so much the worse for the GOP.

THR

7 Feb 10 at 2:05 pm
Jeez, Dover. So this is another mistake conveniently inserted of behalf of another NGO?

It’s incredible, isn’t it? What’s more incredible is how quickly its unravelling.

dover_beach

7 Feb 10 at 2:06 pm
I didn’t know the same lefties who run apologias for Hugo Chavez and Mao Tse Tung valued something called “innocence” in nation states.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 2:07 pm
The Reagan story is touching to a normal person
.
I never claimed to be normal old bean. The IPCC dude’s written one novel and it’s irellevant. He coulda written Justine for all I care.
.
PS That story is one huge cheese platter.

Adrien

7 Feb 10 at 2:08 pm
It’s comical to compare Chavez and Reagan. Chavez, for all his faults, has overseen real wage increases in his country. Reagan raised taxes for all (other than hefty cuts for the rich). Chavez also doesn’t have the rivers of blood on his hands that Reagan does. But yes, maybe Reagan’s foreign policy was comparable to those of communist countries.

THR

7 Feb 10 at 2:12 pm
THR:

Pick up a book called , Seven Fat Years, by the iconic editor of the WSJ. It offers a pretty good account those terrible, terrible years of Reagan’s America.

It was so bad stores ran out of 200 buck Nike sneakers one year.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 2:13 pm
Of course the story is that to you, Adrien. You’re the lefty automaton who bought the media’s cheddar-smelling Barry narrative last year, argued that he had a giant brain and would make America great again.

Whoops.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 2:14 pm
Actually Huggy Chavez has not raised any wages for anyone in Ven.

The oil price has helped the country avoid another collapse. Despite the oil price rise the currency had to be devalued by 50% recently simply showing Huggy Chavez has been a total embarrassment for the country.

Compare that economic performance of Ven and Brazil.

Brazil under Lulu, a reasonable leftist with very good economic credentials has become one of the major achievers this decade.

Brazil simply dwarfs Huggy Chavez’s performance.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 2:19 pm
JC, the WSJ is about as neutral as Socialist Worker, it’s just pitched for a different audience.

THR

7 Feb 10 at 2:19 pm
Chavez, for all his faults, has overseen real wage increases in his country.

LOL. Lefties never change. Hugo, despite abolishing democracy, destroying the economy, waging an ongoing pogrom against student activists and setting his Storm Troopers on Venezuelan Jews, made “wages” go “up,” Castro, for all his faults, has trained a lot of “doctors.” Mao, for all his faults, unified China. Stalin, for all his faults, slaughtered more people than Hitler.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 2:20 pm
Bartely was pretty neutral. He was critical of both the GOP and the Dems when the steered in a wrong economic policy direction.

Bartely was extremely critical of Bush Senior for instance.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 2:21 pm
CL, international observers have repeatedly found Chavez’s elections to be fair. Considering dover yesterday was committed to Yeltsin/Putin being democratic, Chavez can hardly be faulted. And Reagan is responsible for vastly more murders in Latin America than any other regime of the past decade, even the odious thugs who run Colombia.

THR

7 Feb 10 at 2:24 pm
Considering dover yesterday was committed to Yeltsin/Putin being democratic,…

Ah, yes, I am “committed” to that cause.

dover_beach

7 Feb 10 at 2:29 pm
Boris was great!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5FIoocja4k

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 2:50 pm
I don’t know how many communists Reagan wiped out in South America. A lot I hope. No different to dropping a bomb on the headquarters of the SS.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 2:52 pm
CL, Reagan’s deathsqauds were also responsible for the murder of children. I recall that they raped, mutilated and murdered a number of nuns from the US, who had travelled to deliver aid.

According to CL:

No different to dropping a bomb on the headquarters of the SS.

THR

7 Feb 10 at 2:55 pm
You’d have a smidgen more more credibility if you hadn’t argued at length here last year that Mao Tse Tung wasn’t really so bad. He was, in fact, the worst mass murderer in human history.

Communists must be regarded exactly the same way as Nazis, in military situations. They must be hunted down and destroyed.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 3:24 pm
Communists must be regarded exactly the same way as Nazis, in military situations. They must be hunted down and destroyed.

Like this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93scar_Romero

The Central Americans were freedom fighters, justly opposing military juntas.
That applies whether they are communists are not. To even compare these guys to the Nazis suggests a detachment from reality that borders on the Birdian.

THR

7 Feb 10 at 3:26 pm
Romero? Try this, pal, before you wheel out the religious card. No movement in modern history has slaughtered more Christians than communism. Communism killed more people than any other ideological cult in human history. Its revolutionary agitators must be eliminated with the same extreme prejudice as Nazis – who are, in point of fact, fellow leftists anyway.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 3:36 pm
AC/DC’s Brian Johnson keeps it real:

HERALD Sun readers overwhelmingly agree with AC/DC frontman Brian Johnson’s attack on Bono and Bob Geldof.
Johnson told the Herald Sun exclusively that he and his band prefer to help privately – no press conferences.

“I do it myself, I don’t tell everybody I’m doing it,” Johnson said. “I don’t tell everybody they should give money – they can’t afford it.

“When I was a working man I didn’t go to a concert for some bastard to talk down to me that I should be thinking of some kid in Africa.

“I’m sorry, mate, do it yourself, spend some of your own money and get it done. It just makes me angry.”

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 3:40 pm
You know perfectly well that the ‘Christians’ persecuted by the Reds were on the same side as the fascists. I thought anti-Nazism justified swift action, according to you?

In any case, your deflection notwithstanding, here are some more people who ought to have been ‘hunted down and destroyed’:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maura_Clarke

Note in particular Reagan’s support for mass murder in El Salvador:

“During the Reagan years in particular, not only did the United States fail to press for improvements . . . but, in an effort to maintain backing for U.S. policy, it misrepresented the record of the Salvadoran government, and smeared critics who challenged that record. In so doing, the Administration needlessly polarized the debate in the United States, and did a grave injustice to the thousands of civilian victims of government terror in El Salvador. [23] Despite the El Mozote Massacre that year, Reagan continued certifying (per the 1974 amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act) that the Salvadoran government was progressing in respecting and guaranteeing the human rights of its people, and in reducing National Guard abuses against them.”

THR

7 Feb 10 at 3:41 pm
The Central Americans were freedom fighters…

Ah yes, the communist “freedom fighters.”

According to Human Rights Watch, the FARC-EP has killed civilians not involved in the conflict through the use of indiscriminate weapons and its use of landmines.

FARC-EP frequently trains teens as soldiers and informants. Human Rights Watch estimates that the FARC-EP has the majority of child combatants in Colombia, estimating that approximately 20 to 30% of the guerrillas are children under 18 years of age. Children who try to escape the ranks of the guerrillas can be punished with torture and death by firing squad. Human Rights Watch states that one of the reasons female members join FARC-EP is to escape sexual abuse. Female FARC-EP members “had roughly the same duties and possibilities of promotion as males. Yet girls in the guerrilla forces still face gender-related pressures. Although rape and overt sexual harassment are not tolerated, many male commanders use their power to form sexual liaisons with underaged girls. Girls as young as twelve are required to use contraception, and must have abortions if they get pregnant.

What heroes.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 3:45 pm
What heroes.

A shame Reagan didn’t fund them, else you’d be applauding the above.

THR

7 Feb 10 at 3:46 pm
According to Human Rights Watch, the FARC-EP has killed civilians not involved in the conflict through the use of indiscriminate weapons and its use of landmines.

Hugo Chavez supports this organisation because he fancies them as the leftist vanguard that will somehow overthrow the very popular elected President Uribe (who is much more popular than the hapless Chavez).

Michael Fisk

7 Feb 10 at 3:54 pm
You know perfectly well that the ‘Christians’ persecuted by the Reds were on the same side as the fascists.

Oh, they were (scare-quoted) ‘Christians’ were they? I wonder if the fact that the communists launched a pogrom against them had something to do with that. A pogrom that killed hundreds of thousands of Catholic laymen, nuns and clergymen. But that’s OK, according to you, because the communists say they were all “fascists” anyway.

This is almost as bad as you suggestion that Mao’s death toll was an accident caused by “famine.”

Another genuine hero murdered by communists.

More:

Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union.
Persecution of Christians in Warsaw Pact countries.

In 1995, the Russian state commissioner confirmed that 200,000 Russian Orthodox Priests, monks, and nuns were killed. In 1997 the remains of a Catholic Bishop and 30 priests were found at Sandormoch, 150 miles north of St. Petersburg. According to Russian schoolbooks, 20 million Soviet and East European citizens died in Communist Labour camps, while 15 million more were killed in mass executions.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 3:55 pm
On the Contras, the Catholic Institute for International Relations said:

The record of the contras in the field, as opposed to their official professions of democratic faith, is one of consistent and bloody abuse of human rights, of murder, torture, mutilation, rape, arson, destruction and kidnapping.

Reagan the Butcher, waxing un-American, said of the same people that they are “the moral equal of our founding fathers”.

THR

7 Feb 10 at 3:55 pm
The Hangman of Hollywood sends his message of love to Al-Qaeda and the Taliban:

To watch the courageous Afghan freedom fighters battle modern arsenals with simple hand-held weapons is an inspiration to those who love freedom. Their courage teaches us a great lesson — that there are things in this world worth defending.

To the Afghan people, I say on behalf of all Americans that we admire your heroism, your devotion to freedom, and your relentless struggle against your oppressors.

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1983/32183e.htm

THR

7 Feb 10 at 3:59 pm
Roosevelt: Stalin’s buddy.

http://www.tldm.org/News7/Roosevelt.JPG

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 4:01 pm
Wow….

Obama now support’s SRL’s policy.

WASHINGTON – The Obama administration is open to a bipartisan congressional proposal for a payroll tax holiday for employers who hire people who have been out of work for some time, a top White House aide said.

“We are receptive to that idea,” David Axelrod, President Barack Obama’s senior adviser, told C-SPAN in an interview to air on Sunday, when asked about a joint proposal by New York Democratic Senator Charles Schumer and Utah Republican Senator Orrin Hatch.

Good to see he’s in favor of supply side policies.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 4:02 pm
Tim Lambert is claiming that he’s going to be debating Monckton next Friday 12th. Alan Jones is supposed to be the moderator.

The style is “presidential” by which i presume means that the debtors will be using a lectern. I presume there will be a false step for Lambert climb on as the audience wouldn’t be able to see him.

I’m more than certain the ‘toid will turn this thing into a real nasty affair with lots of lies and bullshit bluster.

So it would be worth seeing if Mockton is schooled up on the ‘toid and his lamberting.

Monckton should know things like the “toid suggested once that 58 feet was similar to 89 feet.

The “toid also made the astonishing argument that rolling a perfectly balanced coin is not a 50/50 event.

The ‘toid hasn’t published for over a decade even his own area which is graphic design.

I will add more over the next few days, but if it gets nasty as I’m sure it will Monckton should go prepared for ‘toid’s tactics and his general comportment.

The Dwarf has put up pics of Monckton to make fun about his impairment as a result of Graves disease and allows his commenters to poke fun of him at his site.

One time he had a pic of Monckton in a Nazi salute which was obviously caught at the wrong time.

The ‘toid was also referred to as an intellectual hooligan over ONO by the editor there for his general comportment and dishonesty.

I can’t go unfortunately, however CL should go and ask the ‘toid some questions, as there are Q&A’s with the audience.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 7:16 pm
Little Tim will be on Flannery’s shoulders

tal

7 Feb 10 at 7:43 pm
More on Lambert.

Lambert recently referred to and keeps referring to the email release as theft.

However as CL pointed out Lambert was applauding whistle-blowers :

Here’s what I wrote at Crikey about the “toid’s selective choice of what constitutes whistle-blowing and theft.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/23/cru-emails-reveal-a-worrying-pattern-of-bad-behaviour/

Tim Lambert (UNSW) at his own Site extremely upset about the leaked emails:

MrPete, I do understand the difference between theft and whistleblowing, and the fact that you and the rest of the denialists support criminal conduct is quite telling.

What is unfortunate is that young scientists may well be looking at this and wondering if climate science is the right filed if they are going to be harassed and smeared by denialists and have personal communications stolen. But that does matter to you because climate scientists are the enemy to you and McIntyre.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/11/on_those_stolen_cru_emails.php

Then Lambert also at his own site:

A salivating Tim Lambert, July 28, 2006:

A leaked memo from the Intermountain Rural Electric Association (IREA) gives us inside view of how some of the Global Warming disinformation campaign is financed. There’s this…

There follows his breathlessly excited blockquotes and commentary.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006/07/the_irea_memo.php

June 23, 2004:

Lambert approvingly cites leaked memos providing “some insight into Microsoft’s plans to combat Open Source.”

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2004/06/tanks.php

Lambert the sensual ethicist. I’ve now seen it all.

If it gets nasty as indeed I think it will Monckton should have all these things at his disposal. Lambert wrecks the case for the warming side.

The link shows how obsessed the prick is about Sinclair and others.

Lambert even supports straight out tax evasion as shown in this comment.

And her eis (sic) what Davidson calls “tax evasion”:

“Also, it is important for us if you can transfer the ADVANCE money on the personal accounts which we gave you earlier and the sum for one occasion transfer (for example, during one day) will not be more than 10,000 USD. Only in this case we can avoid big taxes and use money for our work as much as possible.”

You’d think a professor in a School of Economics, Finance and Marketing would know the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion, but anything goes when he’s trying to smear scientists.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 7:56 pm
JC – I wouldn’t worry too much about it. I just hope the debate is recorded. In the meantime I think Tim has done the right thing in accepting the invite to debate Monckton.

Sinclair Davidson

7 Feb 10 at 8:54 pm
Phil Jones did an interview with The Times looking for public sympathy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7017922.ece

EU Refernedum put it quite nicely.

Playing for public sympathy (I’m just a simple scientist) the poor lamb tells us he considered committing suicide.

He gets a very rough ride in the comments. Several make this point: “Anyone tempted to feel sorry for Jones should bear in mind what he wrote when the skeptic John Daly died: “‘In an odd way, this is cheering news!’”. This one too betrays a certain lack of sympathy: “In this era of ‘victimhood’, another perpetrator seeks to pass himself off as a victim.”

I guess our Phil won’t be rushing to repeat this experience.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2010/02/phil-jones-interviewed.html
Yea, Phil emails his buddies that his cheered by the death of a sceptic and now wants people to feel sorry for him.

Hey, Phil, even as a non-sceptic, go screw yourself.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 10:39 pm
JoNova hammers Lambert.

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 10:56 pm
JoNova does what?

Monckton has yet to fix his error riddled science piece and his cv, which is full of historical jokes

rog

7 Feb 10 at 11:07 pm
I’m outta here for a while… got lots to do this week.

daddy dave

7 Feb 10 at 11:13 pm
Yes, the reference to the Nobel is a joke, Rog. But the funniest aspect of it was that you went to Wiki and “discovered” the truth and then breathlessly reported it here. You’re a complete nong.

Heard anything from Malcolm Turnbull lately, by the way?

C.L.

7 Feb 10 at 11:15 pm
Rog:

Nice strawman. CL puts up a comment about Nova nailing Lambert and you try to push the discussion towards Monckton.

Focus on Nova’s piece. What exactly did she get wrong about the dishonest poisonous hobbit.

Point to one error in Nova’s piece.

JC

7 Feb 10 at 11:18 pm
Politically correct acronym of the week

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Health/michelle-obamas-obesity-comments-bringing-malia-sasha-wrong/story?id=9751138

Some charge that Obama’s comments may be perceived as a focus on weight and dieting, which sends the wrong message to the public. The first lady should be discussing behavioral change, not weight loss, said Laura Collins Lyster-Mensh, an eating disorder activist and executive director of Families Empowered and Supporting Treatment of Disorder (F.E.A.S.T.).

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 10:18 am
Um, just OT Jason and JC. But have you noticed that GB now advocates viewing pr0n at work? All in the name of culture, apparently:

“A punishment was in order one supposes. But a sacking? Sacking without redundancy this implies?, And only because he was caught by a female?

“This is how the corporate grayness starts infecting us all. Starts homogenizing and destroying any culture that we once had. The government corrupts the corporates, who turn around and corrupt the government further. It cannot last, except if we are to become slaves of the heart, if not slaves in actuality.”

Now if he could just find a relationship between boobehs and fractional reserve …

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/special-buoyancy/#comments

BirdLab

8 Feb 10 at 10:28 am
Nova says “that Monckton’s calculations are correct”

end of story

rog

8 Feb 10 at 10:32 am
No, it not an end of story, Rog.

Show us where Nova is wrong in the thread.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 11:22 am
lab

So Lardulous wants porn at work?

Lol.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 11:24 am
This is ~~unbelievable~~ no surprise. Check it out:

The (BBC’s) £8billion pension fund is likely to come under close scrutiny over its commitment to promote a low-carbon economy while struggling to reverse an estimated £2billion deficit.

Concerns are growing that BBC journalists and their bosses regard disputed scientific theory that climate change is caused by mankind as “mainstream” while huge sums of employees’ money is invested in companies whose success depends on the theory being widely accepted.

Same story in Australia, where unions have invested theire members’ life savings in the scam. This explains why Labor won’t budge from its denialism. Warmenism is too big to fail.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 11:30 am
Simon Overland confirms that he’s a coward in charge of a sissy police “service.”

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 11:36 am
Gay Nuns, that is sooooo 70s

tal

8 Feb 10 at 11:40 am
You missed this.

This was the solution Overland had for Indian kids.

Indian students urged to ‘dress poorer’

No “we’ll protect protect you”. Dress poorer.

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/indian-students-urged-to-dress-poorer-20100207-nkba.html

Overland deserves the size 10 so quickly that he should never be allowed bear a cop station again. That was bald lunatic’s answer to violence.

I’m not kidding, but he should be fired today.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 11:42 am
CL
I think that is a bit misleading. There is nothing in theory wrong with a police chief wanting to send a message of tolerance by attending a gay pride parade and that was what he was trumpeting.

Having said that, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence (the group he was photogroaphed with I think) is a mainstay of such parades though not exemplifying the gay rights movement anymore than Fruits in Suits (the one for gay businesspeople is)so perhaps he should have resisted the urge to be photographed with them in particular.

FTR I do find the gays crossdressing as nuns thing to be distasteful and unneecessary myself. Nuns are hardly the most fitting object of ridicule if you want to ridicule religion. I also think there is somethign misogynisytic about the gays who put on these extravagant cross dressing of women as if they are generally ridiculing women.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 11:43 am
IPCC embezzler, sex novelist and locomotive fancier, Rajendra Pachauri, caught in a massive extortion scandal:

The research institute run by the head of the UN’s climate body has handed out a series of environmental awards to companies that have given it financial support, The Sunday Telegraph can disclose.

The Energy and Resources Institute (Teri), of which Dr Rajendra Pachauri is the director-general, has given corporate awards to companies such as Pepsi and Honda, as well as Indian businesses.

Those same companies have given financial backing to Teri through grants or paid-for consultancy work.

When is this dishonest piece of garbage going to be charged?

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 11:44 am
Why would anybody expect the gays to play nice with the Catholics? And the nun thing has nothing to do with catholics, especially “mocking” them. It is clearly an ironic juxtaposition and play on words. Sometimes people need to understand that it is not necessarily all about them when others are enjoying themselves.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 11:55 am
Good thinking Peter.

We’ll get homer a Nazi uniform and have him parade in a Jewish neighborhood.

Or better still let’s get you over the Harlem and walk down 125th street wearing a Klu Klux Klan outfit.

But Hey:

Sometimes people need to understand that it is not necessarily all about them when others are enjoying themselves.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 11:59 am
oops To Harlem

JC

8 Feb 10 at 11:59 am
jc

Wow, now you’re making it not about you, but imagined third parties. Jeezus mate, you really need a holiday from all this. I am sure it is not really you being represented by the non-stop high voltage anger and bitterness you project here. Take a break, for the sake of your heart! You’ll see that the world is not such a bad place. Laugh a little.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 12:04 pm
Dumbest comment of the week so far:

“…the nun thing has nothing to do with catholics…”

Odd, isn’t it, that Australia’s turd burglers* never dress up as Muslims in order to protest all the killings of their confrers in Islamic countries in any given year? No, the real enemy is contemplative Catholic nuns.

* Oh, was that offensive? Sometimes people need to understand that it is not necessarily all about them.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 12:06 pm
In all honesty Overland is a fucking moron and those gays thinking the police force he runs is going to protect ought to read what he’s told the Indian kids.

Protecting groups or individuals isn’t about hanging around their parades for a photo op.

It’s about doing the hard fucking yards of catching violent fuckers and putting then away.

I don’t find the pic offensive as I don’t really care who the bald galoot hangs around with. What I care about is the brazen stupidity and the shallowness of the fucker.

On the one hand he’s hanging around a bunch of crazy gays dressed is stupid outfits while telling Indian kids to dress poorer, which is essentially telegraphing that he’s given up.

Screw him and screw the government that continues to hire the bald idiot.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 12:06 pm
Peter:

You comment was dumb and my examples showed the reasons why it was a dumb comment.

Try and think before you post crap as it annoys the readership.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 12:08 pm
I take your point, Jason – quite a balanced one. But the police have no role in “promoting tolerance.” That’s not their job. I didn’t see Overland photographed with Catholic backpackers during Youth Week a few years ago. Does he also do snaps with homeless people and dwarves?

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 12:10 pm
Thing is the gay pride thing really isn’t about making a political point anymore. There was a day and an age when it would’ve been seen as courageous but these days it’s mostly a little narcisstic excuse for a party which is fine but should be self funded.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 12:11 pm
And Peter, I couldn’t give a shit how those guy dudes dress. My argument is with the bald galoot running the cops in this state.

Instead of going to gay parades for photo ops the lazy bald dickhead ought to be telling us how he’s going to prevent random violence in the state and protect everyone and what he needs to reach those objectives. Quite frankly dressing poor doesn’t sorta cut it.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 12:11 pm
for a party which is fine but should be self funded.

Please don’t tell me the government is funding this shit too. Say it ain’t so.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 12:12 pm
In Sydney, some funding comes from the City Council so I’m assuming the same is true of Melbourne.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 12:17 pm
Yeah, Sissy Simon actually told Indian kids to start dressing like bums to avoid being bashed. Did he give that advice to gay men dressing as women? For that matter, did he give that advice to women who like skimpy clothes?

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 12:17 pm
Anyhoo…

Guess who’s back in the news having a whinge?

Hewso!

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 12:19 pm
Does anyone ever recall Hewson saying good things about the Libs since he lost the election even homer could have won in a landslide.

Lead a political party in a un-losable election, lose it and then turn against the party that gave you the opportunity by mouthing off at every opportunity on Our ABC.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 12:30 pm
The police tend to loathe all their Chief Commissioners here in Vic, but they particularly hate when they’re forced to engage in politically correct PR exercises.

Ironically, such PR exercises are arguably necessary. The force, through the imbecilic behaviour of many individuals, has managed to offend large numbers of Victorians, including gays and lesbians, Indians, and Africans, among others.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 12:31 pm
CL

Why would the gays dress up as Muslims? The irony is that while nuns used to live in ‘Orders’ of denial and abstinence, these gays live in ‘Orders’ of indulgence and excess. Geddit? It’s a joke, Joyce. Stop being and old Angry White Guy and thinking the world is persecuting YOU.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 12:32 pm
I think we’ve found the reason that the film industry in this country is rooted: Our vegemite drilling community think that mocking nuns is cutting edge.

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 12:32 pm
How do they offend people, THR?

I would say the way to least offend anyone is to have them do their job and stop getting into situations where “they offend” anyone.

I’m personally offended by having this bald galoot in charge, so who’s talking care of my gripe.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 12:34 pm
jtfsoon

Couldn’t agree with you more. My point is neither to condemn nor champion, but merely to correct some self-centred misinformation. Come on, does anybody really think the old queens dressing up as nun’s, running around drinking pink drinks with umbrellas, giggling, and alluding to their naughty and whacky social lives is really a front for a dark, macabre, deep hatred for fricking nuns!? It says a lot more about those who think it does than the Indulgent queens themselves.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 12:36 pm
Stop being and old Angry White Guy and thinking the world is persecuting YOU.

Starting this shit again, Peter? I’ve already told you what do. Get yourself on 125th street in NYC wearing a klan outfit and when you’re getting the shit kicked out of you to an inch of your life call out….

“stop being an Old angry black guys and think the world is persecuting you…

Let us know if the kicking stops as I’m really curious if your theory works out.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 12:38 pm
Next JC and CL will be setting up a Facebook hate site decrying the nun-phobic Whoopi Goldberg’s role in Sister Act!. And please don’t anybody tell JC and CL about the film The Blues Brothers!

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 12:38 pm
A few years ago, jc, the police took it upon themselves to do a mass strip-search of gays and lesbians at a nightclub.

Police have been found out making false and/or racist remarks about Africans, and have completely botched the recent spate of Indian bashings. Their statements, however ‘commonsense’ they may appear, imply that it’s the victim’s responsibility to ensure that they don’t get bashed. They’ve also come out with such idiotic pearlers as ‘We don’t have any leads whatsoever, but we’re sure the latest attack wasn’t racist.’

And that’s just the public image of police. When you see the contempt with which (some) police treat homosexuals, the poor, the illiterate, ethnic minorities, etc, it’s not hard to understand why the community might police view in negative terms.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 12:39 pm
A few years ago, jc, the police took it upon themselves to do a mass strip-search of gays and lesbians at a nightclub.<

That happened at ‘Tasty’ about 15 years ago; hardly a few years ago, THR.

dover_beach

8 Feb 10 at 12:42 pm
Good point, THR.

Nonsense, Peter. The Perpetual Indulgence mattress munchers formed their group in San Francisco in the 60s and 70s (yes, it’s a fully imported piece of US imperialism). They have routinely targeted Cathedrals and solemn feast days (Easter, for example) in order to attack Catholicism. Strangely, they never dress up in burqas and crash a Ramadan service in Lakemba. But then, they’re cowards – so that’s not surprising.

They are precisely the gay equivalent of those Westboro Baptist Church weirdos who crash GI funerals. Which is ironic given Westboro’s raison d’etre.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 12:45 pm
Peter:

You’re an idiot. That’s my point. You scrawl this platitudinous gunk and then when your “theory” is shown to be crap you accuse me of being offended by a couple of gays in nun’s suits when I have said I’m not in the least bothered by them.

What I’m bothered by is your idiocy in thinking shit doesn’t offend people as the chances of you doing the Harlem routine is less than zero for obvious reasons. You wouldn’t make it out alive and no one would be in the least offended by your expiry.

However I’m more bothered by this bald galoot for a police commissioner and his handling of really serious shit like attacks on Indian kids by telling them to dress poor. That’s what I find truly offensive.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 12:46 pm
The police tend to loathe all their Chief Commissioners here in Vic, but they particularly hate when they’re forced to engage in politically correct PR exercises.

That was your good point, THR.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 12:46 pm
THR

and have completely botched the recent spate of Indian bashings.

How? By arresting and charging the perpetrators, who happen to be er, Indians themselves? Sounds to me like first class police work. Catching the real perps despite the mindnumbing thickheads and their clueless agenda-driven phony journalism at The Age.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 12:48 pm
You’re right dover, it was about 15 years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasty_nightclub_raid

However, it involved 463 patrons being strip-searched. That’s a lot of people to pass on the message that Vic police are homophobic.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 12:49 pm
How? By arresting and charging the perpetrators, who happen to be er, Indians themselves? Sounds to me like first class police work.

Some were not Indians at all, Peter. And I was referring to statements made by police, as per my comment above. See also jc’s point – police asking Indians to ‘look poor’ is not likely to strengthen ties with the community in question.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 12:50 pm
I channel Mild Colonial Boy by saying we should unleash the ratan on this scum.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 12:52 pm
Nicholas Smallwood, 26, Rhys MacAlpine, 28, and Gabriel Toomey, 23

Could a fellow with a name like ‘Smallwood’ be overcompensating?

I believe I’ve favourably mentioned the birch myself many times.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 12:54 pm
Peter:

They’ve caught one perp and the dolt happened to put himself alight which means if he’s that brain dead it wouldn’t be hard police work.

The CBD has been a violence infested place for years and these fuckers have done next to nothing.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 12:54 pm
THR, I think you have a fundamental misconception about the role of police – they don’t exist to protect the individual or prevent crimes from occuring, their role is to catch the perps after the event. Insofar as this is a deterrent or the locking up of habitual criminals reduces crime, there is a protection element, but it is purely incidental. It might be a widely held view, but it is just plain wrong.

In this context, then, it is indeed the individuals responsibility, and that of their fellow citzens, to ensure they are not bashed. Of course that might be empowering to the individuals, so it is actively discouraged by the powers that be – can’t have activist members of a society – god knows where that would end…

Which is not to excuse police for failures to catch the criminals in these cases. But the hard reality is, the police will not protect you, and you’re setting yourself up for a fall if you think they will…

Tim Quilty

8 Feb 10 at 12:56 pm
Insofar as this is a deterrent or the locking up of habitual criminals reduces crime, there is a protection element, but it is purely incidental. It might be a widely held view, but it is just plain wrong.

I don’t agree with that. In nearly all cases of serious crime outside of domestic situations where a spouse goes postal, most of these offenders have very long rap sheets.

I’m sorry, but the usual bio for a violent rapist isn’t working at Macquarie bank as an investment banker or teaching at Sydney Uni in a lecturer’s role and then going and raping and killing a bunch of women or bashing gays.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 1:02 pm
Tim
If you’re saying that deterrence by punishing and locking up the perps is unimportant I don’t think even any but the most soft left indoctrinated criminologists would agree with you. Research suggests deterrence through expost punishment is of a lower magnitude than through being caught in the act but I’d dispute your claim that it’s ‘incidental’.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 1:05 pm
Perhaps I should rephrase that.
Deterrence is a function of the perceived probability of being caught in the act and the magnitude of penalty once caught. Increasing the latter has been found to be less important than increasing the former. If the crim is caught even ex post that is still going to have a big effect on the perceived ‘price’ of breaking the law. Catching the offenders is pretty frigging important in deterring future acts of crime.

And some libertarians are just hippies of the right.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 1:08 pm
The police do some work in prevention, monitoring and surveillance. it’s not merely confined to catching perps after the fact. And even if it was, the blanket denial from Vic police that attacks against Indians could possibly be racist (in spite of police having no leads) is just as much as PR exercise and sending coppers off to the Mardi Gras.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 1:09 pm
THR

Are you suggesting the police not provide cold, hard practical advice about the realities of living in the western suburbs of Melbourne? What I would say to Indian students is:

“if you are going to Australia to study, that is what you are going to do, study! You are obliged like every other foreign/exchange student on the planet to make sure you have enough money to support your stay in Australia, and to make sure you have enough money to avoid living in shitty violent sections, whether it be Harlem, Packham, or Footscray. If you choose to break your visa by moonlighting, you are acting outside the parameters which inform your visas conditions and restrictions. If you thus negligently ignore this advice, you should be warned in advance you face increased risk of falling victim to the violent and criminal realities of those areas…

One of those realities is the criminal elements among the highest crime-committing groups – Lebanese Muslims, Aboriginal, Vietnamese, Sudanese – as well as other perpetrators of violent and property crime, which includes the whole racial rainbow that is western suburban Melbourne.

We would in particular remind you that among unscrupulous employers are Indians, Pakistanis, and so on. Not only will some of them exploit their knowledge of your vulnerability, others might murder you and set you alight if you cross them. And others still, will inflame (pardon the pun) your vulnerability by lying to the media that gangs of white racists are waiting on suburban corners at 2 am waiting for any Indians who might be driving home from a dinner party so they can set alight Indians in back alleys.”

I’m sure the get the general gist.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 1:09 pm
OK, I meant that the purpose of the police was to catch the perps rather then prevent the crime. The prevention involved in locking up criminals is incidental to this purpose.

I agree it is a significant deterrent. And that having a large population of those likely to commit crime locked up will inevitably reduce crimes committed, independant of the deterrence effect. Incidental was probably a poor choice of words.

The point, however, is that the police won’t protect you.

Tim Quilty

8 Feb 10 at 1:13 pm
That’s not right. The police perform a large number of preventative roles. They are stationed at all major events. When feuding couples separate, and one needs to retrieve belongings from the home, police attend to keep the peace. Police also cruise around in patrol cars, doing random checks, breath tests, etc.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 1:15 pm
PP

It really sounds like you’re making excuses for crime.

The murder of the Indian that was found to be committed by another Indian was in NSW btw. No relation to Melbourne’s shitty crime rates.

if Indian students want to break their visa to work, good on them. We need more people who come here to work, not less.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 1:16 pm
I see the SMH has put up pictures of Smalldick and the other perps CL mentioned. What sort of ‘men’ take delight in bullying a teenage girl?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/workers-fined-115000-over-bullying-of-cafe-waitress-20100208-nlrj.html?autostart=1

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 1:21 pm
Yes, Yes, OK, there are police activites that could be considered to be prevention. Although I’d suggest random breath tests are enforcement rather then prevention. And further, most of the prevention activites the police do engage in are “mission-creep” – not part of their core role – and also things that they then require new laws to enforce, criminalising more behaviour. Like crowd control at a protest or major event requiring new laws criminalising crossing the street.

Tim Quilty

8 Feb 10 at 1:23 pm
The point, however, is that the police won’t protect you.

Perhaps not directly but they can indirectly.

For instance:

NYC in the early 90′s was a case in point.

Precinct commanders were provided with daily computer runs and maps of high crime or spikes in their area of responsibility and it was the the job to the commanders to get this down by devoting resources or requesting immediate backup.

Their performance was measured according to a set of metrics established along those lines. If they were failing or perceived to be they go the boot and a new commander came in.

Crime went down, primarily because crims were being caught.

http://www.city-journal.org/2009/nytom_ny-crime-decline.html

JC

8 Feb 10 at 1:25 pm
jtfsoon

I agree the foreign students can break their visas if they wish, in fact anybody can commit any crime they wish. Just so long as though, actions have consequences, and crying after the milk has been spilt is also their right, goddamit.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 1:30 pm
JC

Your views about the role police play in local communities is just so wrong. Police have to be an integral part of communities, and at ground level, otherwise their job becomes damn near impossible.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 1:34 pm
so you’re now equating someone getting a job where this breaches their visa conditions as equivalent to someone bashing and robbing someone going to work Peter?

some ‘conservative’ you are.

anyway i’ve never heard of any of this nonsense about students being required not to take jobs. there are rules against them working more than X no of hours which is more commonly applicable so your hairsplitting here is ridiculous.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 1:38 pm
THR

Just so you might save me some time, if I were to review your posts on violent crime in suburban Melbourne, would I be reading posts of nuanced treatments of the many layers of inter-ethnic/racial co-existence and conflict? or would I find screeds of outrage against “racist” “white” “neoNazis, Hansonites….” with nary a mention of non-white criminality, let alone evidence of familiarity of the extensive date sets on the topic? What about mentions about ethnicity in actual arrests, charges, and convictions in Melbourne?

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 1:41 pm
jftsoon

Hmmm…you seem like a very bright guy. I’m gonna presume that the pace of posts on this thread means you can only rid snippets of each. The analogous inferences you are drawing from my post get a Fail.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 1:43 pm
Your views about the role police play in local communities is just so wrong.

Oh. Do go on.

Police have to be an integral part of communities, and at ground level, otherwise their job becomes damn near impossible.

You mean like the bald galoot hanging around a bunch of trannies is integral part of policing meanwhile he’s telling Indian kids to dress poor.

Peter Remind me to advocate on your behalf if and when the bald galoot gets the proverbial bullet for being as useful as a tit on a bull. I’m sure you’d do worse if that was at all possible.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 1:44 pm
What about mentions about ethnicity in actual arrests, charges, and convictions in Melbourne?

Don’t be so presumptuous. Vic police don’t strictly record the ‘ethnicity’ of an offender (though they do record the appearance, skin colour and language). In any case, why are you trying to shift the discussing to ‘non-white criminality’? Are you still addicted to this idea that white racism doesn’t exist?

THR

8 Feb 10 at 1:46 pm
jftsoon

I am not “splitting hairs”. Personally, I couldn’t care less about the western suburbs of Melbourne or hairdressing students, whether they are white, yellow, black, or green with pink candy stripes. All I am trying to do is fill in the huge gaps that the middle-class white moralists running all over these blogs and Fairfax press screeching “Racists!” and all trying to outdo each other to show off just how OUTRAGED they really are.

Sure, be outraged; demand community, police, and political actions; but let’s make sure any action takes place with a better knowledge and skill set than the one presumed by the screeching moral show-offs.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 1:48 pm
PP
Don’t you think lamenting poor policing and calling for increased police on the streets can be made without screeching racism?

Conservatives, the right, etc used to be associated with such calls,

Who here among the likes of JC and CL is screeching racism while lamenting poor policing?

Again your strange hatred of Menzies’ ‘middle class whites’ seems to have caused you to react stupidly.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 1:53 pm
THR

Hmmm..so you admit your focus is not concerned with actual evidence surrounding violence in suburban Melbourne, but rather with a half-hourly ‘Two Minutes of Hate’ but not directed at Emmanuel Goldstein, but at the fifth columnists in Oceania itself; working class white males? Mate, what ever has entered your brain while you sleep, you really need to get it treated

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 1:54 pm
jtfsoon

Oh, I could not agree more about more police on the streets. In fact, I advocate a return to the days of cops on the beat, if not one on each corner. I would like to see a much greater emphasis on the role police can play in preventing crime. I would also empower police to kick anti-social violent drunks up the arse, and hurl them into the slammer for the night.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 1:57 pm
Peter:

You’re basically a version of Homer with better diction however your arguments are in fact jsut as bad if not worse.

No one here seems to be moralizing much or if at all other than you telling people what a bunch of trnnnies are are and why we should be grateful for their comedy.

As I said I don’t give a shit about a bunch of dudes getting dressed as nuns. But what i do give a shit about (as most people here to) is the police commissioner telling Indian kids to dress poor to avoid getting attacked while getting int photo op while telling us how much the trannies love him.

This also spills over to the pathetic job the police are doing under his control in getting a handle on violent crime.

I think it would be better for you to think about what you’re going to say rather than pixel pollute the site with crap.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 1:59 pm
jtfsoon

And sorry if my post above came across as being patronizing, it wasn’t intended to be.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 1:59 pm
Hmmm..so you admit your focus is not concerned with actual evidence surrounding violence in suburban Melbourne, but rather with a half-hourly ‘Two Minutes of Hate’ but not directed at Emmanuel Goldstein

Er, I was discussing the penchant for faux pas that we see in Vic police.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 2:00 pm
jtfsoon

Oh good god, I have nothing against Menzies’ anything. The middle class whites I am talking about are the ones screeching in fora such as The Extremely Angry Blog and the alarming number of copies of it.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 2:01 pm
…..to avoid getting attacked and getting into photo ops while telling us how much the trannies love him.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 2:02 pm
What’s worse he’s telling Asian kids to avoid dressing in Prada and perhaps even donning Hugo Boss (yellow label) as a way of dressing poor. That alone could cause massive rioting in the Asian Community.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 2:05 pm
prada? hugo boss?

those melbourne asians …

the closest I come to chic is a penchant for Cotton On and Giordano polo shirts.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 2:15 pm
here’s another dude complaining about someone’s size.

“A lot of French people feel wounded by what has been happening,” de Villepin said.

He denounced a “totally scandalous” abuse of the justice system by Sarkozy, who has been trying to have him convicted on a charge of conspiracy.

Their battle has captivated France for years, pitting against one another two politicians from the same Gaullist political family who could not be more different.

The punchy, pint-sized Sarkozy – in private de Villepin calls him “the dwarf” – had fought tooth and nail to bring his patrician former boss to court for allegedly orchestrating a smear campaign against him.

Sarkozy was furious when the tall, dashing author of historical tomes, who is also an accomplished poet, was acquitted last month in the court where Marie Antoinette was sentenced to death. It might have ended there. Then the prosecutor appealed, meaning the trial will be replayed.

I gotta say that France avoided a bullet by dissing De Villepin.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 2:17 pm
THR

Here again you are engaging in the same kind of syllogistic reasoning, which results in you criticizing people for what you insist is the logical conclusion, but in fact I am attacking your premise

Let’s go through it:

1. Racism and racist violence are innate ideological and behvioural traits of white ‘bogan’ suburban Australian males and of only them.

2. Non-white Indians in western suburban Melbourne have been victims of violence

3. Therefore white bogans in Melbourne’s western suburbs must be loudly denounced, and the police and politicians must use the words “white bogans” on television, on radio, on the Internet, and to India, the globe, the galaxy, and future generations of human beings.

4. Middle class white “Communists and anti-racism activists” can slap each other on the back, with a big satisfied smile, telling each other, “see, we showed those ‘others,’ those bogan oiks. Now, people will never point the finger at us lot as being in any way associated with those low-life bogans”

Or something like that, no?

All I am saying is “hold on, let’s start this again. First of all, we can do better than that sloppy premise…”

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 2:18 pm
Jason, Prada Hugo Boss wah why so expensive?

tal

8 Feb 10 at 2:20 pm
the closest I come to chic is a penchant for Cotton On and Giordano polo shirts.

Lol.

I think you’d be the exception down here, Jase.

I read somewhere that the big top end Eurotrash fashion houses are basically surviving through sales in Asia or they’d be dead.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 2:22 pm
jc

Nothing wrong with eurotrash fashion. We all had our “New Romantic” phase.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 2:27 pm
I never said there’s anything wrong with Eurotrash fashion, as it pretty good.

However without the Asian market over the last couple of years there wouldn’t be any Eurotrash fashion as most of them would be deservedly broke, which is most unfortunate as they all got lazy thinking that 2,000 bucks for a pair of shoes was par for the course.

It would have served them a damn good lesson.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 2:33 pm
I don’t know jc, there’s a lot of very rich Asians in Australia. Drive past any of the most expensive private schools in this country between 3 and 4 any afternoon.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 2:36 pm
Yes, peter, that’s my point. There are lot’s of very rich Asians in Australia which is why i was joshing around how horrifying it would be to some of them reading the galoot’s solution to “dress poor”.

Good to see you’re on the ball here Pete.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 2:40 pm
Mark Steyn’s piece

Unsustainable
An economically illiterate narcissist in the Oval Office is never going to rein in unsustainable spending in any meaningful
sense.

He’s read my mind.

http://article.nationalreview.com/424153/unsustainable/mark-steyn

JC

8 Feb 10 at 2:42 pm
jc

To be truthful, it is not ‘Asians’ he is talking to, but the overwhelmingly Punjabi ‘peasants’ dossing in and around Footscray.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 2:45 pm
Peter:

Please STFU. I was just joshing around. It was a meaningless attempt at humor and now you’re analyzing it north/south/east and west.

Stop! Please!

JC

8 Feb 10 at 2:51 pm
I must say I got sick of Steyn with his Europe-is-done-beat-up for the past 7 odd years but it now seems he may have found his old sea legs again……..

This is pretty good….

Speaking of roads, I see that, according to USA Today, when the economic downturn began, the U.S. Department of Transportation had just one employee making over $170,000. A year and a half later, it has 1,690.

Happy days are here again!

Did you get your pay raise this year? What’s that, you don’t work for the government? Yes, you do, one way or another. Good luck relying on Obama, Pelosi, Frank, and the other Emirs of Kleptocristan “taking action” to “resolve” that. In the last month, the cost of insuring Greece’s sovereign debt against default has doubled. Spain and Portugal are headed the same way. When you binge-spend at the Greek level in a democratic state, there aren’t many easy roads back. The government has introduced an austerity package to rein in spending. In response, Greek tax collectors have walked off the job.

Read that again slowly: To protest government cuts, striking tax collectors are refusing to collect taxes. In a sane world, this would be a hilarious TV comedy sketch. But most of the Western world is no longer sane. It’s tough enough to persuade the town drunk to sober up, but when everyone’s face down in the moonshine, maybe it’s best just to head for the hills. But where to flee? America is choosing to embrace Greece’s future when even the Greeks have figured out you can’t make it add up. Consider the opening paragraph of Martin Crutsinger, “AP Economics Writer”: “WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama sent Congress a $3.83 trillion budget on Monday that would pour more money into the fight against high unemployment, boost taxes on the wealthy and freeze spending for a wide swath of government programs.”

What language is that written in? How can a $3.83 trillion budget “freeze spending”? And where’s the president getting all this money to “pour” into his “fight” against high unemployment? Would it perchance be from the same small businesses that might be hiring new workers if the president didn’t need so much money to “pour” away? Heigh-ho. Maybe we can all be striking tax collectors. It seems a comfortable life . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-12-10-federal-pay-salaries_N.htm

JC

8 Feb 10 at 2:55 pm
The gubbermint: isn’t it fantastic?

Target of 150 new Aboriginal homes in 2010.

The first two homes built under a $672 million Indigenous housing program are now complete.

The Strategic Indigenous Housing and Infrastructure Program was launched in April 2008.

A one-armed man could have re-worked the facade of St Mary’s Cathedral in that time.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 3:31 pm
Obama predicts a Jets win at Super Bowl XLIV.

Saints win.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 4:03 pm
Teleprompter Mohammad could be employed by Vegas to act as a cooler. He’s the ultimate reverse indicator.

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 4:12 pm
This is how the worst Administration in American history bankrupts a nation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzkqLpfpwXg

Fuck me.

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 4:42 pm
JC will love this -another gaffe ridden Green

http://www.vexnews.com/news/8100/slur-greens-party-councillors-racial-attack-could-see-him-sacked/

Councillor David Ellis – a serial Greens party endorsed candidate – is accused of bizarrely suggesting to his colleague Ivan Reid that he should not vote on a proposal relating to the proposed expansion of the On Luck nursing home into a “green wedge” area because Reid is married to a woman of Korean descent. Senior citizens of Chinese descent live in the popular aged care facility …

Ellis is known to be furious that the Chinese community aged care facility On Luck exists at all and has privately told residents it should be “bulldozed” because it was not approved by the local community or council in the first place. The Greens party extremist has loudly opposed the On Luck facility and is also known as a very loud opponent of immigration generally. His party leader Bob Brown has also attacked immigration recently

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 4:46 pm
CL

I am not a keen follower of the byzantine and ever-changing mechanisms by which billions are dolled out to Aborigines. But why do Aborigines have to wait for governments to get housing. What have governments got to do with house-building process. When my sister built their house, the government didn’t do, they had to employ private contractors, and so on. The whole process from buying the land to moving into their brand new house took only six months. What gives with the Aborigines? Surely some of them must be able to mix up cements and slap some bricks down on top of each other? It ain’t rocket science.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 4:52 pm
jtfsoon

Jesus, those Greens are so sickeningly sanctimonious, aren’t they? Let me guess, David Ellis is a white Anglo, right? I think that by the time people get to the stage of having to move to a nursing home, they should be able to live out their final years in the company of whomever makes them more comfortable, whether that is gays, Chinese, Lebanese Muslims, former prostitutes, socialists, even libertarians! At that stage of life, people should be exempt from legislation against race/gender discrimination.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 4:58 pm
it’s not sanctimony Peter, it’s plain bizarre.

The nutball is saying that someone connected to a Korean shouldn’t vote on a Chinese aged care facility.

jtfsoon

8 Feb 10 at 5:12 pm
Well all Asians are the same

tal

8 Feb 10 at 5:13 pm
Why is that? Which does Ellis think Reid’s ‘prejudice’ will go? Support the On Luck before of Korean-Chinese blood ties, or against On Luck because of intractable Korean-Chinese enmity?

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 5:16 pm
Christ, they really are a despicable party. Honest to goodness whenever I see their party name or mentioned my heart rate goes up.

In fact my better 1/2 refuses to ever get into a conversation with me about them as she knows the very idea of that party sends me into “angrification” spasms.

They are just despicable in every possible way.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 5:30 pm
The nutball is saying that someone connected to a Korean shouldn’t vote on a Chinese aged care facility.

How about banning any green party member from ever voting again as they should be treated as perpetual minors.

They really are despicable.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 5:32 pm
JC when are you going on holidays?

tal

8 Feb 10 at 5:33 pm
It fucking truly amazes me how these trogs are always given a pass for any disgusting behavior because they’re tree huggers.

Every single one of their policies would destroy the economic fabric of the nation while not leaving aside the fact that they really are fascists in every way.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 5:35 pm
JC, blood pressure buddy,settle down pet

tal

8 Feb 10 at 5:41 pm
late next month, Tal. Touch wood (or Homer’s head).

Want some more Caribbean music to listen to…lol

It’s pretty silly going over 1/2 across the world to lie on a beach, hey? LOL.

If I recall the island there’s part of it which is nude. But if you hang around the family section you always get the totally starkers Euro stragglers parading up and down the beach in their birthday suit.

The males of course are totally off-putting, but some of the gals had really nice bods from what I recall.

It’s really funny as it’s a frog Island of origin with lets of Euros and Americans holidaying there.

The nude or topless caper is not really an American thing so its amusing watching the reaction from the more inhibited Americans.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 5:45 pm
Peter, I don’t mind paying for disadvantaged Aborigines to have decent houses. I’ve never had a problem with generosity to Aborigines. They owned the joint long before anyone else got here. But a couple of things:

What strategies are in place to ensure the properties are well looked after?

Where are they being built? Because some of these so-called “townships” should cease to exist and governments shouldn’t prop them up as viable.

And finally, TWO f—ing houses have been completed since mid 2008?

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 5:53 pm
I’m sure they’re VERY special houses CL

tal

8 Feb 10 at 5:55 pm
Hey, I want to check out which of Ace’s smilies work here. Here goes:

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 6:01 pm
Damn. My favorite – EEK – doesn’t work. Oh well.

http://smilies.mee.nu/

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 6:03 pm
CL

Hold on, let me get this straight. On the land that was given back to Aborigines in the 1970s, administered by various Aboriginal Land Councils, are you saying that the Commonwealth government also gives the residents of these communities a house, which the government also builds?

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 6:06 pm
Barry Brook’s site has an excellent guest post by Peter Lang on alternatives to the ETS and why he thinks the ETS is potentially unworkable that can’t be wound back due to the issue of newly vested property rights.

Worth reading.

http://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/31/alternative-to-cprs/

Peter is in the camp of doing something but don’t wreck the economy and don’t impoverish the world’s poor by making energy more expensive.

http://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/31/alternative-to-cprs/

JC

8 Feb 10 at 6:10 pm
They need a place to live, Peter. Ultimately, their more promising kids should move away from these “township” dumps and build lives in more viable locations and we should incentivise that. But it’s a very complex situation. They have a connection to place and they’re not going to hit Sydney to earn a half a mill off their own bat. It just isn’t going to happen.

What’s your solution?

I’ve always believed we owe something special to Aborigines. That doesn’t mean I believe in give give give – we know that’s no good for them, as it’s no good for anyone. I’m just saying I’ve never been one of those people who puts Aborigines into the column marked ‘No-Hopers And Bludgers Ruining The Country.’

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 6:19 pm
Be a good start if we could teach all the kids in those townships to read, write and speak English.

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 6:21 pm
CL

I didn’t get into any of that, I just wanted to know what my question answered. The justifications can come after I’m up to speed.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 6:30 pm
THR, I know one of the former owners, and many of the former regulars, some of who were there that night. You wouldn’t believe the stories that can be told about ‘Tasty’, or may be you could.

dover_beach

8 Feb 10 at 6:36 pm
Not justifications, Peter.

That’s the reality.

Now what’s your solution?

Be a good start if we could teach all the kids in those townships to read, write and speak English.

Indeed.

Actually, ditto for the children of Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, et hoc genus omne.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 6:43 pm
CL

I just want an answer to my question. I haven’t said anything else.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 7:01 pm
I think it was the previous week’s Weekend Australian mag that carried a front cover story about about a good number of aboriginal kids getting work as cattle men, which to be honest appeared as though they really loved it.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 7:07 pm
You’re the lefty automaton who bought the media’s cheddar-smelling Barry narrative last year, argued that he had a giant brain and would make America great again.
.
Just saw this. Be great if you could quote me. And then I could get a team of specialists to work out how you morphed what I really wrote into that.

Adrien

8 Feb 10 at 7:18 pm
Burkhas are being used to stage robberies, again:

TWO burqa-wearing bank robbers have held up a post office near Paris, using a handgun concealed beneath an Islamic-style full veil, court officials said.

Staff let the pair through the security double doors of the banking branch of the postal office overnight, believing them to be veil-wearing Muslim women, before they flipped back their head coverings and pulled out a gun, officials said.

They made off with €4500 ($A7112) seized from the staff and customers of the branch in Athis Mons, just south of Paris, according to the online edition of Le Parisien newspaper.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/burqa-clad-bank-robbers-stage-french-post-office-hold-up/story-e6freuz9-1225827492897

Is there anyone who still wants to claim that public safety concerns over the burkha are either unfounded or motivated by racism?

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 7:20 pm
I still think women wearing a ha-jib is pretty alluring, Fisk. Dunno why but it has that effect. Bank robberies or no bank robberies.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 7:23 pm
Michael Fisk

The best first stab Australians should take at the burqa issue is to let its wearers known in no uncertain terms that if they wish to tar Australian men with the brush of their savage homelands, then they can piss off. The one that really makes my blood boil is these Muslim women who will not shake another males hand, once she is married. Imagine if you put your hand out to shake it, and she refused. You’d want to spit on her.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 7:25 pm
We are talking about full face and body covering. It has no place in Western society, and there is increasingly a strong case for banning it on all public property, while allowing private property owners the right to discriminate on the basis of attire.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 7:33 pm
Imagine if you put your hand out to shake it, and she refused. You’d want to spit on her.
.
So would a woman be justified spitting at an Hassidic Rabbi on account of the same snubbing?
.
Like every other immigrant wave it starts out with all that old country shite and then people chill out and go to the beach. Unless Dad strangles you first.

Adrien

8 Feb 10 at 7:38 pm
Peter, it’s a stupid piece of clothing. It imprisons women, causes vitamin deficiencies, poses a public security threat, and wearing the burkha is in itself a statement of colonial intent against the West. Nothing will be forfeited by banning this outfit on all public property. Private property owners, including banks and airlines, should of course be completely free to decide whether to exclude burkha-wearers.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 7:38 pm
there is increasingly a strong case for banning it on all public property,
.
a. I’ve seen very few women wearing full body coverings and you want legislation?

b. Bollocks!

Adrien

8 Feb 10 at 7:39 pm
Like every other immigrant wave it starts out with all that old country shite and then people chill out and go to the beach

But here the exact opposite has happened. The first waves of Pakistani immigrants in Britain broadly rejected the old country and made some efforts to assimilate. It is their children and grand-children who advocate sharia, death for apostates, full facial covering, and so on.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 7:40 pm
It is better that this issue is dealt with at the level of civil society not legislatures.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 7:42 pm
Imagine if you put your hand out to shake it, and she refused. You’d want to spit on her.

PP – In my day you never offered your hand to a lady, but waited instead for her to extend a hand. The uncouthness of modern Australia never ceases to shock me.

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 7:42 pm
a. I’ve seen very few women wearing full body coverings and you want legislation?

So I guess if there had been no assaults in 2009, then we should have considered legalising assault – the absence or low commission rate of a crime should in no way affect its legality.

b. Bollocks!

“Bollocks” is not an argument. If you think you have the right to walk into a bank wearing a balaclava, the security guards there will soon disabuse you of your misunderstanding. The burkha is no different. Allowing it on public property, in any country, serves no legitimate purpose at all. Whether people want to wear it in private is up to the proprietor.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 7:45 pm
Infidel Tiger

In your day women did not have the vote. In MY day, you sit across women at the negotiating table for multibillion dollar merger deals. This is Australia, where everybody shakes everybody’s hand.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 7:46 pm
I don’t have a problem with people who don’t like shaking hands. How do you know where the other person’s hands have been?

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 7:50 pm
Settle down, Peter. No woman, muslim or otherwise,is obliged to shake your hand.

So I guess if there had been no assaults in 2009, then we should have considered legalising assault – the absence or low commission rate of a crime should in no way affect its legality.

So who is the burkha assaulting? And why in the name of Allah would libertarians want legislation for police to arrest women based on their wearing too much clothing?

THR

8 Feb 10 at 7:52 pm
So who is the burkha assaulting?

Burkhas have been used to stage robberies on several occasions now. They serve no legitimate purpose of any kind. They are a threat to individual health and public safety.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 7:54 pm
Of course, you are no doubt fine with “women” having the “right” to enter banks wearing fascist face-concealing attire of this nature.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 7:55 pm
THR

Actually, they are obliged to shake hands. That is Australian culture.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 7:56 pm
I can’t say that I find myself shaking in my boots at the thought of a chick in a burqa. That’s not to say that I approve of them, but unleashing Mr Plod against Muslim women seems particularly idiotic and counterproductive.

They are a threat to individual health and public safety.

If we applied this logic equally, we’d have to quadruple the amount of legislation currently on the books. The internet itself would probably get banned.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 7:57 pm
It’s a betwixing one this burkha issue. On the one hand we have a creed openly displaying it’s subjugation of the lesser sex and on the other hand I can’t stand banning things. It starts with a burkha and next thing you know you can’t wear ugg boots and tracky daks to Big W.

The easy answer is to repeal the Anti-Discrimation Act and let private businesses decide who alone they wish to have as customers. If someone approached my shop front dressed like Darth Vader I’d have the light sabre at ready.

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 7:59 pm
Actually, they are obliged to shake hands. That is Australian culture.

Okay, next time a woman refused to shake your hand (as is her duty, apparently), why don’t you go and report it at your local police station, or better yet, get your lawyer to sue.

And I thought ‘Australian culture’ allowed women a modicum of choice when it came to how they exchange pleasantries.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 7:59 pm
If we applied this logic equally, we’d have to quadruple the amount of legislation currently on the books. The internet itself would probably get banned.

There is an obvious distinction between public and private property. I don’t believe people have the “right” to go naked in public, whereas they are obviously free to walk around their own property with no clothes on. Women should have the right to wear burkhas on private property (so long as the proprietor agrees) if they wish. They have no business wearing this particular piece of attire in public.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 8:01 pm
What about cars, then? I’m guessing that cars are involved in more robberies than burqas. Do we ban them too?

THR

8 Feb 10 at 8:02 pm
Woman are not obliged to shake hand, you kook. Have you ever seen a woman in a social situation? They never shake hands when introduced to each other.

Keep your paws to yourself unless offered, you oaf.

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 8:03 pm
I think Tiger hits the nail right on the head. Repeal all these laws and let businesses decide.

To be honest the potential thread of a burkha clad person is far more potentially worrying at a bank than it is in a fruit store.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 8:04 pm
No, because cars serve a legitimate purpose in both private and public places. Burkhas serve none whatsoever. Nothing is lost to society by removing them from government property – there are of course marginal benefits for public safety and social capital by eliminating them where they are neither wanted nor needed.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 8:06 pm
I can’t imagine how they get around in that shit on 40 degree days. I’ve seen Burkha clad women walking around on extremely hot days. It must be 50 degs plus under that crap. It’s black too absorbing the heat.

Fme.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 8:09 pm
THR

Australian culture is not a matter for the police. Women do have the right to be rude, and to be admonished accordingly. But these burqha things are not acting as ‘women’ but as political Muslims.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 8:09 pm
JC – if it were possible to privatise roads in addition to removing all anti-discrimination legislation, burkhas would be a non-issue. Sadly, they are now becoming an issue – burkha-wearers can use government roads to gain access to private property in order to carry out criminal offences (such as bank robberies). Society will lose nothing by imposing a burkha ban on all state land and infrastructure.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 8:10 pm
So avoid them Peter. Big deal.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 8:10 pm
Infidel you fucking dinosaur, when women first meet each other, they DO shake hands. Most of the women I know will usually say something along the lines of ‘gidday mate’ as well. You need to stop hanging around nursing homes, and go and meet some REAL Aussie chicks, maaaaaaattte!

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 8:12 pm
I have seen burqa clad little girls and mothers at at a water park in Dubai on a 5)c day, whilst their brothers and fathers wore boardies. Weird.

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 8:13 pm
JC, there have been a number of crimes committed by burkha-wearers using public land to gain access to private premises.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=burqa+%2B+robbery&meta=&aq=&oq=burqa+%2B+robbery&fp=1860df8cf2ec5be1

It is not possible to “avoid”. It is safer and fairer, along with balaclavas, to ban them on public property.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 8:14 pm
Burkhas serve none whatsoever.

To you, they probably don’t. But strange as it may sound, there are some women out there who construe wearing the burqa as their own choice.

But these burqha things are not acting as ‘women’ but as political Muslims.

Tsk. We can’t have the lower orders getting ‘political’ now, can we? Next we’ll have a rampage of women smoking unaccompanied at the opera.

THR

8 Feb 10 at 8:17 pm
Peter, I am not a modern man, but I would wager my left nut that I am younger than you.

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 8:18 pm
Peter
Do you hang around butch lesbians all day or something?
Women hardly ever shake hands nor do they expect you to offer them your hand to shake unless it’s a business meeting.

Jason Soon

8 Feb 10 at 8:18 pm
Jason

Some not so butch ones. But mainly women from PLC, Kambala, Abbottsleigh, Sydney Girls, Santa Sabina, North Sydney Girls, Frensham, Loreto. You know, the usual crowd you meet at uni.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 8:21 pm
If balaclavas are already banned it’s open-and-shut. Mind you, then we’d have to ban halloween masks (in public places). This means you could wear fancy dress masks at a party, but not while walking past a liquor store on the way to the party!
.
The fundamental question is, should people be allowed to conceal their face in public.

daddy dave

8 Feb 10 at 8:22 pm
Most of the women I know will usually say something along the lines of ‘gidday mate’ as well.

Followed by, ‘another VB, Shazza?’

That reminds me: I detest men calling women “mate.” They’re women, they’re not your mate. (Excepting spousally).

And Tiger is right: conventionally, a man doesn’t shake a lady’s hand unless she offers it.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 8:23 pm
CL

You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. When was the last time you actually met a woman outside the wives of your Lodge buddies. Women have changed a lot since the days of Ladies Lounges in pubs, you know.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 8:26 pm
The fundamental question is, should people be allowed to conceal their face in public.

Bar a few cases where people have to wear dressing, or have been mutilated, basically the answer is no. There’s no such thing as a right to wear a balaclava on a government street outside a bank. Wearing a burkha is no different. Nothing is gained by society in granting special privileges to a tyrannical religious sect, especially when these privileges have demonstrably added to violent crime such as robberies.

Michael Fisk

8 Feb 10 at 8:26 pm
Interesting pictures I saw last week on some blog. Can’t remember where now. Anyway, it showed the grauating class from some uni in Eygpt in 1976 or something. Men and women in jeans, shorts, no head coverings – could have been Berkley. The other pic was of the graduation class from the same institution last year. Every woman’s head was covered, none were in shorts or trousers – oe even just a pretty dress.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 8:27 pm
They’re women, they’re not your mate
.
Some of us have friends from the other side. And they get called mate.
.
conventionally, a man doesn’t shake a lady’s hand unless she offers it.
.
That’s changing. It was the rule that in professional situations you shook hands regardless. In social situations you took the lady’s cue. But I displeased a woman a little while ago because I didn’t immediately offer to shake her hand socially.
.
I think they just keep changing the rules to drive us further out of our minds.

Adrien

8 Feb 10 at 8:28 pm
Can’t remember where now. Anyway, it showed the grauating class from some uni in Eygpt in 1976
.
Yeah Egypt was very liberal then. The reaction was just getting underway.

Adrien

8 Feb 10 at 8:28 pm
Same as Iran and Afghanistan.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 8:30 pm
en was the last time you actually met a woman outside the wives of your Lodge buddies.

That’s me, Pete – a goat rider in the Masonic Lodge.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 8:30 pm
Jesus, you skip the hand-shaking and go for straight for the riding, eh? What a smooth operator you clearly are!

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 8:32 pm
Pete:

Have you taken a stupid pill today. You’re really saying some outlandish things.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 8:33 pm
As Adrien says, you take the lady’s cue in a social situation unless it’s a business meeting. Women have more of a sense of personal space than men and don’t necessarily like complete strangers touching them willy nilly. Shaking hands is really a way for men to gauge each other.

Jason Soon

8 Feb 10 at 8:33 pm
jason

If you seriously believe that then clearly you meet women as rarely as CL does and at the same parties.

Peter Patton

8 Feb 10 at 8:35 pm
Ahem Peter

tal

8 Feb 10 at 8:40 pm
I’ll try your approach at the next Buffalo Lodge party I go to, Peter. If I see a hippie, curvaceous lovely yonder I’ll straighten my apron and just go up to her and say, “‘ow ya goin’, mate? What about this heat?’ I’ll give her a Latham special of a handshake too.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 8:46 pm
You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. When was the last time you actually met a woman outside the wives of your Lodge buddies. Women have changed a lot since the days of Ladies Lounges in pubs, you know.

I see women interact socially everyday and they rarely, outside of business situations, shake each other’s hands, and they more rarely call each other ‘mate’. In fact, if you or another women referred to them as ‘mate’, they would be considered a bogan.

dover_beach

8 Feb 10 at 9:01 pm
Apologies for the slow release of comments from moderation etc. today. Number two son broke his arm and I spent the day in the emergency ward of the Royal Childrens Hospital.

Sinclair Davidson

8 Feb 10 at 10:27 pm
I hope he’s feeling better, Sinclair. No complications I trust.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 10:29 pm
Ditto.

dover_beach

8 Feb 10 at 10:31 pm
Bet that was fun Sinc

tal

8 Feb 10 at 10:34 pm
Nazis walk amongst us:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/smoking-outdoors-to-be-outlawed-on-three-busy-frankston-streets/story-e6frf7jo-1225828040127

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 10:38 pm
Oh f**k it I’m moving back to Singapore

tal

8 Feb 10 at 10:41 pm
That’s Labor for you. They’re the new Fred Niles of Australian politics. Sniffer dogs at train stations and the police commissioner posing with sodomites but no smoking in the street.

No alcopops either.

And no small boobs.

Oh, and no blog comments during election campaigns.

Yeah – no light bulbs.

Getting bashed? Dress poorer.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 10:47 pm
Here’s the pics you mentioned CL.

The progression of Islamic fashion:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/02/the-erosion-of-womens-rights-in-egypt-illustrated.html

Infidel Tiger

8 Feb 10 at 11:09 pm
Yeah, that’s the one, thanks Tiger. Horrible.

C.L.

8 Feb 10 at 11:26 pm
Gals that don the hijab never have to worry about a bad hair day again. Of course honour killings and the like could be a problem

tal

8 Feb 10 at 11:45 pm
tiger:

You’re still going though that website? I have seen it in years. LOL.

Thanks for reminding me it still exists.

JC

8 Feb 10 at 11:57 pm
Portrait of an oxygen thief.

http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news_images/92541.jpg

JC

8 Feb 10 at 11:59 pm
Nah, JC. Steyn linked to it.

Infidel Tiger

9 Feb 10 at 12:02 am
Did he? I haven’t thought of that site in years. Good to see it’s still there plugging away.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 12:04 am
Well they’re not running out of stories to report, that’s for sure!

Infidel Tiger

9 Feb 10 at 12:10 am
IS there a chance we could dump Rudd in Afghanistan to fight the Taliban.

He’s about the most annoying beta males in he country.

Grand plans for a scientific Australia

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/grand-plans-for-a-scientific-australia/story-fn3dxiwe-1225828035687

How about grand plans to get of this moron once and for all.

Scientific Australia… Fme. How the hell did the country vote for him.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 12:17 am
Something to hide? Oh yeah.

Govt may sit on broadband viability study.

Federal Communications Minister Stephen Conroy says he is yet to decide whether to publicly release a study into the viability of the Government’s $43 billion National Broadband Network.

Business groups and the Productivity Commission have criticised the Government for committing to the high speed internet project without conducting a cost-benefit analysis.

The Government has defended itself by pointing to the fact it had commissioned an implementation policy.

Senator Conroy says the document is due at the end of the month.

“It may be possible for the report to be released. It may not. But I will be in a better position to answer those sorts of questions when I have read the implementation study which I have not yet received,” he said.

And then there’s this ever-present tax-eating hack, familiar to all Queenslanders:

Senator Conroy, meanwhile, has admitted that he recommended a senior Labor strategist for a $450,000-a-year government job.

Mike Kaiser was recently appointed to a senior post at the Government’s National Broadband Network company without the position being advertised.

He is a former Queensland Labor MP who had recently worked as Queensland Premier Anna Bligh’s chief of staff.

The Opposition raised concerns about Mr Kaiser’s appointment during a Senate estimates hearing.

Under questioning from Liberal Senator Mary Jo Fisher, the chief executive of the NBN company, Mike Quigley, revealed that no other applicants were sought for the job.

“So you just kind of went to people, including the Minister, and said got a job going, got anyone you reckon might want it? And being good at it would be a help,” ” Senator Fisher said.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 12:18 am
Technology (the catapult) is involved, which is good:

THE Rudd government has outlined its grand plan to create a scientifically-engaged Australia.
It wants to get Australians thinking more about science and will establish, for the first time, a national framework aimed at “catapulting science into classrooms, boardrooms and lounge rooms”.

Oh no. The kids haven’t got their laptops yet and already science czar, Kim Carr B.A. (Hons), M.A. Dip. Ed., wants to bombard them with “science.”

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 12:26 am
Mike Kaiser was recently appointed to a senior post at the Government’s National Broadband Network company without the position being advertised.

on 450,000 a year. And he has no experience in the telco field.

So they’re hiring buddies at top salaries and doing the $43 billion without a cost/benefit analysis and depending on the slant of the report may not be made public.

These people are running our government?

Freaking unbelievable.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 12:32 am
No more giggles about Women’s Weekly, please.

Christian Kerr: Rudd in media whore mode.

KEVIN Rudd was on ABC Television’s Q&A last night, answering questions from more than 200 16 to 24-year olds in a special show broadcast live from Old Parliament House.

The PM has already begun his new Sunrise segment. He pops up in this week’s New Idea magazine and Therese is on Better Homes and Gardens this Friday taking Johanna Griggs through the Lodge.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 1:02 am
Here we go again – the bidding war gets underway:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/coalition-pledge-on-parental-leave/story-e6frg6nf-1225828079684

Michael Sutcliffe

9 Feb 10 at 1:08 am
Ken Parish has decided to get rid of registration of comments on Troppo. If he really wants to get more comments, he should come out of retirement and Don Arthur should write more. The blog is really a bit boring at present.

http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/02/08/commenting-is-go/

jtfsoon

9 Feb 10 at 9:57 am
Forrest,

He is employed in a public policy /corporate affairs area.

They look for experience in that particular area not telcos.

Have you ever looked at people in this area in ANY industry. They rarely have experience in the industry only in that designated field.
Mostly they have ALP or Liberal ties or are ex-journos.

having said that the job should have been advertised.

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

9 Feb 10 at 10:39 am
Homer:

They could hire holocaust denialist such as your buddy David Irving and you would still be on your knees fellating them.

As CL said, the dude they hired is a greasy hack hanger on.

Labor seem to have plenty of those.

Gi away.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 10:44 am
oops

Labor seems to have plenty of those.

Go away.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 10:48 am
Homer, Mike Kaiser is a professional Labor Party hack. He is considered a joke in Queensland. That you would try to promote him as a corporate maestro is laughable.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 10:51 am
Kevin ‘Fred Nile’ Rudd wants to increase the drinking age to 21.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 10:59 am
Mike Kaiser would have the right background for corporate affairs.

Well no he wasn’t a joke in Queensland far from it.
He has also worked in NSW as well.

He certainly has the background and experience in corporate affairs.

A pity both of you have little understanding of the area.

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

9 Feb 10 at 11:00 am
Kaiser resigned as an MP in 2001 after admitting to being involved in vote-rigging during party ballots in the mid 1980s.

Homer: “Mike Kaiser would have the right background for corporate affairs.”

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 11:04 am
Notoriously corrupt Pennsylvania Democrat, Jack Murtha, dead at 77.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 11:14 am
Kim Kong Il has gone nuts (even more than before)

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/kims-bold-korea-move-backfires-20100208-nn9m.html?autostart=1

Kim had decided there was too much private trade and too much private wealth developing in his country. His solution is extraordinary and the consequences already seem to be disastrous for North Korea. The regime announced it was cancelling the existing paper currency.

People could trade their old, useless currency for new by handing over 100 old won for one new won. Citizens who were not directly on the payroll of the government or the military would face a strict limit on the amount of old money they could swap – about $US30 to $US40 worth at the then-prevailing blackmarket rate. In other words, it was the confiscation of all private wealth over $US40 per person. And that was only enough money to buy one 50-kilogram sack of rice.

The North Korean people have reacted as they never have before. “For the first time in the regime’s history,” writes Nicholas Eberstadt, a scholar of North Korea at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, a Pyongyang decree “generated widespread public resistance visible to the outside world.”

jtfsoon

9 Feb 10 at 11:27 am
yes I know that CL however unlike you I believe a person is allowed to work after serving his punishment.

His background sows him more than capable of doing the job.

The criticism that can be justly made is that the position was not advertised.

The criticism against Kaiser is absurd.

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

9 Feb 10 at 11:38 am
Serving his punishment? He was appointed Chief of Staff to Anna Bligh. Before his criminal period, he was Chief of Staff to Morris Iemma. Before that he was Assistant National Secretary of the Australian Labor Party. Before that he was state secretary of the Queensland division of the Labor Party.

Homer: “His background sows him more than capable of doing the job.”

Kaiser is the party hack that party hacks aspire to be. He is the poster-boy of hacks.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 11:52 am
South Australian Liberals hail gubbermint as the solution to the funding crisis of the annual schools’ Rock Eisteddfod.

The South Australian Opposition says it is a “disgrace” that the Government there had halved its contribution to $10,000.

SA opposition education spokesman David Pisoni said the Liberals would double the funding if elected on March 20 and would call on others to give more, so the event might be restored.

“What sort of message does it send sponsors when state governments aren’t even prepared to sponsor an event like this?” he said.

“The Government cut its funding from $20,000 to $10,000 – we would immediately restore that $10,000 that the Government has removed.”

Shameful.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 12:00 pm
With a death toll of at least four, the Rudd government ceases and desists its diastrous insulation rort.

Foil insulation banned amid electrocution fears.

Environment Minister Peter Garrett has suspended the use of foil insulation under the Government’s home insulation program after it was linked to a number of deaths.

The peak group representing Australian electricians says four people have been killed since the Government began offering a $1,200 rebate to people who want to insulate their homes…

Mr Garrett says safety is the Government’s “absolute priority” and from today, people will no longer receive a rebate for installing foil insulation.

Four people are dead because of a Rudd stunt. Simple as that.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 12:06 pm
He’s killing people in their own homes now.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 12:32 pm
Homer:

The position was never even advertised. For you to post here that this hack was somehow the best man for the job ought to be a moderation offense as you’re no long capable of seeing reality and just lying about it. What frightens me about you is that I’m starting to think you believe your own swill.

You’re just a troll. Go away.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 12:35 pm
Keep away from the school toilets

tal

9 Feb 10 at 12:36 pm
Jason:

I bet that would really piss the people off. If they try that shit they must be starving for cash and the place is heading off the cliff.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 12:37 pm
hahaha!

Birdy is now telling Brad De Long to resign. He better not visit the US after this and telling that US journo to kill himself. He’s probably on a terrorism watchlist.

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/special-buoyancy/#comment-27318

Flexibility is destabilizing? Right. Resign you twit. Anyone who doesn’t realize that its fractional reserve that causes instability was not cut out to be an economist.

jtfsoon

9 Feb 10 at 12:48 pm
it just occured to me Birdy is imposing collateral damage on the rest of us. US news sites and blogs might just start blocking comments from Australia after his recent hijinks.

jtfsoon

9 Feb 10 at 12:51 pm
De Short will have something to look forward to waking up in the morning….. Bird droppings on his site.

That will sure wake him up faster than a double espresso, or in his case, being American, a large drip coffee.

It’s true Jason… Bird could eventually cause Australia to be blocked for US sites. Key needs to send that prison plane and take him back.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 12:55 pm
Forrest,

if you can inded read then do so otherwise buzz off.

CL tell us all what was his punishment and did he serve it?

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

9 Feb 10 at 12:59 pm
I can “inded” read Homer, can you? Where did I even mention one thing about this hack’s “punishment”. Point it out, doofus.

———-

But hey, why don’t don’t they start hiring hardline ex-cons in sensitive government jobs too.

Why stop at political hacks previously vote rigging?

After all, doing 15 years for armed robbery offense means, according to Homer, that they’ve done their time. So give these dudes jobs such as Chief information officer at NBN. They could do worse, according to homer.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 1:08 pm
Forrest you idiot I mentioned the position wasn’t advertised. you are an idiot.

good to know both CL and Forrest believe once a person commits a crime they pay for it forever.

do you know who does corporate affairs for Macquarie for instance ?

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

9 Feb 10 at 1:36 pm
Homer defines not getting a $450k ‘jobs for the mates’ setup as ‘paying for a crime forever’.

jtfsoon

9 Feb 10 at 1:46 pm
Yes, Homer believes it’s a crime against humanity and decency if an ex-con doesn’t get a $450,000 per annum job with a telco for which he isn’t qualified.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 2:01 pm
Will he pass the police clearance check?

tal

9 Feb 10 at 2:03 pm
jeez, apparently Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a home-wrecker

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249247/The-historian-wife-mistress-living-fatwa.html

jtfsoon

9 Feb 10 at 2:03 pm
Forrest you idiot I mentioned the position wasn’t advertised. you are an idiot.

Ni Homer. Cl mentioned the position was n;’t advertised in the blurb is posted about this egregious act from Controy, the asshat that wants to censure the web.

good to know both CL and Forrest believe once a person commits a crime they pay for it forever.

So… you would support a convicted child molester running a child minding centre when he gets out… Would you?

do you know who does corporate affairs for Macquarie for instance ?

Who homer… Charles Manson, John Gotti jnr?

You moron. Which Macquarie anyways. The Claytons uni you went to or the bank?

JC

9 Feb 10 at 2:06 pm
Oops
No Homer. Cl mentioned the position wasn’t advertised in the blurb he posted about this egregious act from Controy, the asshat that wants to censure the web.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 2:07 pm
I stand behind these ladies:

Half-naked women protest Ukrainian election.

They’re not like those Code Pink gargoyles either.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 2:08 pm
no, stand in front as you’d get a better look.

In any event the vid will be soon banned in Australia as most of them had very small breasts.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 2:10 pm
CL I thought you liked hips
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i13/cudasgirl/codepink_fat_lady.jpg

tal

9 Feb 10 at 2:10 pm
Wow. Ayaan Hirsi Ali looks beautiful in that electric blue dress.

What a scoundrel that bloke is, hey? Eight affairs in the marriage so far.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 2:13 pm
Yeah, true. Conroy will ban the vid after monitoring it personally in his censorship suite.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 2:14 pm
Tal, ever considered a Yulia Tymoshenko hair-do?

Y’know, our own Yulia – Yulia Gillard – should ask her hairdresser boyfriend to fix her up like that.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 2:19 pm
CL I thought you liked hips
.
Tal! Yikes!

Adrien

9 Feb 10 at 2:32 pm
It’s strange how women stand by sleazebags.

With the Sanford case, the guy even refused the promise to be faithful in their wedding vows! Not condoning what he did – but does it still count as “cheating” when you make it that clear?

Fleeced

9 Feb 10 at 2:34 pm
Same as Iran and Afghanistan.
.
Iran is the seat of onme of the world’s most ancient cultures. It’s still liberal just behind closed doors.
.
Outside Khabul Afghanistanis are not interested in anything that happened after 5000 BC except assault rifles and Toyota Land Cruisers.

Adrien

9 Feb 10 at 2:36 pm
I was thinking the same thing when I saw those protesters, btw.

No idea what they’re protesting, but we need more protests like it.

Fleeced

9 Feb 10 at 2:37 pm
I can’t open Tal’s link for some reason. Was it this code pink activist?

(somehow the word activist doesn’t gel with this pic.

http://giovanniworld.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/code_pink.jpg

JC

9 Feb 10 at 2:37 pm
My Yulia comment spammed?

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 2:37 pm
well this particular sleazebag wrote Empire among other big books. In other words, he’s pretty high among the right wing commentariat food chain.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Niall Ferguson – that is one neocon power couple.

jtfsoon

9 Feb 10 at 2:37 pm
but does it still count as “cheating” when you make it that clear?
.
No.

Adrien

9 Feb 10 at 2:37 pm
I would think it sort of makes it cheating otherwise why would Sanford tell the wife that he was going hiking in red neck ville (Appalachians) rather than on a bonking excursion to Argentina.

That’s a pretty big damn lie by the way in a creative sense.

You’d think he’d try to align where he was going instead of the stark difference between Argentina and the Red neck mountains.

” Like … Bye honey.. see you when I get back from mountain hiking in a few days”, on his way to the airport to fly to Argentina.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 2:43 pm
JC: I think the key was to claim to be somewhere outside mobile phone range

Fleeced

9 Feb 10 at 2:46 pm
Same pic JC

tal

9 Feb 10 at 2:52 pm
This is confusing a little, fleeced as this vid seems to suggest Sanford’s wife knew about his Argentina sojourn beforehand.

She had left him before he took off.

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=9290611

So she’s not the typical Democrat political wife doing the stand-by-your-man-routine while extolling the virtues of female independence. This one seems to have a set if I may be so loose.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 2:59 pm
I think she has written a book about it

tal

9 Feb 10 at 3:01 pm
The worst in this caper was John Edwards who had his political adviser take the rap and lie for getting Edwards girlfriend pregnant so as to keep it from the media.

The sleazeball Edwards and even his wife apparently pushed the adviser to make the public confession. he also happened to be married.

Imagine the woman.. some doofus gets on Tv and says that he got you pregnant when you’ve never been with 1o feet of him.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 3:05 pm
oh of course, she wrote a book.

You just gotta love America, no? It’s this entrepreneurial flair that made her great.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 3:07 pm
It cracks me up, they all get caught in the end

tal

9 Feb 10 at 3:27 pm
No Mark Sanford’s wife is not your typical Democrat wife in fact shw wasn’t even a Democrat wife!

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

9 Feb 10 at 4:22 pm
CL I already wear my hair like that

tal

9 Feb 10 at 4:33 pm
yes, Homer we know Sanford is not a democrat. (groan)

Please try and keep up with the class.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 4:43 pm
Homer:

Have you suffered a brain injury in the past few years?

JC

9 Feb 10 at 4:45 pm
tal

What does “Ahem” mean? That you are the one brave soul taking my side (except a half-hearted nod from Afrien)?

Peter Patton

9 Feb 10 at 5:10 pm
What does “Ahem” mean?
I took it as a polite hint to tone it down; that you were treading on toes. I could be mistaken.

daddy dave

9 Feb 10 at 5:14 pm
funny quote from the article on Ayaan and Niall

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249247/The-historian-wife-mistress-living-fatwa.html

Ferguson, who is a director of the Centre for Policy Studies, a rightwing think-tank, is thought to have met Miss Hirsi Ali last May at a Time magazine party in New York.

They were captured posing for a photograph – his arm around her waist – after being introduced by Belinda Luscombe, the magazine’s arts editor.
She told the Mail on Sunday: ‘In all the years I have known Ayaan, she’s never had a boyfriend.
‘She’s gorgeous, but with a fatwa, it’s tricky to find guys.’

jtfsoon

9 Feb 10 at 5:27 pm
Peter lots of women don’t shake hands lots do.Those of us that don’t ,as a rule,aren,t necessarily 1950s Stepford Wives

tal

9 Feb 10 at 5:33 pm
A bit more frightening than an irrate father Jason

tal

9 Feb 10 at 5:34 pm
A fatwa didn’t stop Rushdie either:

http://www.rightcelebrity.com/?p=5026

steve from brisbane

9 Feb 10 at 5:51 pm
She’s gorgeous, but with a fatwa, it’s tricky to find guys.

I’ll say. The one night stand takes on a whole new meaning.

I guess I shouldn’t make light of her plight.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 6:02 pm
Maybe a fatwa gives an ugly man an air of importance and danger. (I know his was lifted some time ago, btw.)

steve from brisbane

9 Feb 10 at 6:05 pm
Maybe steve,he’s pretty cashed up as well,which helps

tal

9 Feb 10 at 6:17 pm
Frankly the idea of having a relationship with a gal (in my case) that was “fatwaed” wouldn’t be much fun, especially if there’s possibility of getting caught in the cross fire.

Being a male you invariably be trying to protect the female so the chances of getting hit oneself is high and not particularly attractive.

You don’t want to be getting into any relationship where the other person has bee fatwaed as that would be a game loser in my mind.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 6:18 pm
Could be that some guys become writers to develpp an allure that they wouldn’t otherwise get with their looks.

George Orwell, James Joyce, etc, weren’t exactly Adonis-type guys.

THR

9 Feb 10 at 6:24 pm
Tony Abbott responds to Kevin ‘Fred Nile’ Rudd’s desire to raise the drinking age:

Eighteen-year-olds can vote, drive, join the army and go to war so they should also be allowed to drink alcohol, says Opposition Leader Tony Abbott.

Mr Abbott said on Tuesday he didn’t support a nanny state or the wowser instinct.

He said Prime Minister Kevin Rudd came very close to falling into a pretty serious trap when he endorsed a drinking age of 21.

Asked if he thought the PM was a wowser, Mr Abbott said he didn’t support the wowser instinct.

“I don’t support irresponsible drinking, but I think the vast majority of Australians know how to handle alcohol and I don’t believe there should be any change in the legal age for drinking,” he told reporters.

“You can get a job at 18, you can vote at 18, you can go into the army and go to war at 18. I think it’s reasonable that you should be able to have a drink at 18.”

Mr Rudd said he’d personally like to see the legal drinking age lifted to 21 years.

But there would have to be rigorous debate and evidence that the policy could reduce binge drinking before the government would consider it.

“If the evidence is there and it is capable of being proven that it works, then we (will) look at these things and make a decision,” he said.

Mr Abbott said there was evidence all sorts of things could be safer if draconian restrictions were imposed on ordinary life.

“But we live with risk. That is part of ordinary life,” he said.

Chalk that up as another Abbott win.

Funny how journalists are busy mocking Barnaby Joyce while the Flo Bjelke-Petersen figure in The Lodge is trying to turn the social clock back to the 1950s.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 6:26 pm
Spammed again?

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 6:27 pm
JC, I’ve noticed you sound like a calmer person in your posts at Club Troppo.

steve from brisbane

9 Feb 10 at 6:28 pm
I’m always calm, Steve. You don’t believe how calm I am. Especially with dollar Yen finally breaking up in the past 1/2 hour or so

JC

9 Feb 10 at 6:32 pm
“But we live with risk. That is part of ordinary life,”

Hear, bloody hear!

Abbott modestly suggests that he’d prefer his daughters don’t put the town bike out of business and he’s pilloried by every luvvie in Christgendom. The prudish, purse lipped, Methodist preacher wannabe wants to change the very social fabric and a right of paassage for youngsters and it’s a non-story. Rudd’s first instinct in every case is wowserism. His second is “better focus group” that. He’s not a leader’s arsehole.

Infidel Tiger

9 Feb 10 at 6:42 pm
Score one for Abbott on that one.
it doesn’t help that Rudd looks like a Toohey’s Light would bowl him over.

Jason Soon

9 Feb 10 at 6:44 pm
Yeah, Tiger. Abbott just came out and said what he believed – dismissing the incredibly tiresome “argument” that it’s OK to ban gear if you can prove it will “save lives.” But not the Reverend Rudd. He wants to turn the clock back but he won’t do anything until some group of ghastly neo-Temperance Union quacks gives him the cover of being able to say that an 18 to 21 “reform” will save 138.6 lives per annum. Truly, this prime minister is an embarrassing, cobblers-bereft ninny of the first rank.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 6:51 pm
Well I guess that sex-with-his-girlfriend-without-a- condom Tony knows a lot about taking risks.

Look, I am 100% positive that the drinking age bizzo will just die a natural death, but just talking about it will have some appeal to the older demographic that will think it will help the late night violence issue in the clubs districts of the capital cities.

And let’s not get too precious about this topic. Lots of countries do cope with an older age, and I see that (according to Wikipedia) in Sweden, some clubs voluntarily set an older limit of 20 or 23! Allowing that here could well be a good idea, I reckon.

Personally, I would not be upset if the minimum age limit increased here to 20. Japan absolutely runs on alcohol, but they cope well with that limit.

steve from brisbane

9 Feb 10 at 7:08 pm
Blogger Wat Tyler of Burning Our Money is usually a good read, mostly grumbling about waste and bad management by HM government.
Here though he raises a very constructive thought.
http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2010/02/charter-cities.html
Perhaps Tasmania?

ken nielsen

9 Feb 10 at 7:09 pm
Well I guess that sex-with-his-girlfriend-without-a- condom Tony knows a lot about taking risks.

Rudd probably wore one when he jerked off.

And let’s not get too precious about this topic…

We’re not, Steve. Kevin Rudd is.

Lots of countries do cope with an older age…

So Steve, you’d ban a 19 year-old ADF member home on leave from Afghanistan from taking a drink at a pub?

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 7:16 pm
Yep. Bit deal CL. Is the American defence force undergoing some sort of trauma ‘cos the same can happen there?

steve from brisbane

9 Feb 10 at 7:21 pm
Big deal, I meant

steve from brisbane

9 Feb 10 at 7:24 pm
And Steve, the legal drinking age in Swedan is 18. Private clubs choosing to control their scene by imposing their own rules is another matter altogether. Rudd wants to align Australia with the once prohibitionistic United States, Tajikstan, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Indonesia and Sri Lanka.

This is a bloke who got on the grog and shoved fivers down the knickers of New York strippers. Imagine if a drunken National Party pol got caught visiting a strip club and later supported a ban on alcohol to under 21s. The progressives of Australia would be OUTRAGEOUSY OUTRAGED!

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 7:27 pm
I’d say steve considers hi-lo milk on his bran flakes a risk instead of soy.

Infidel Tiger

9 Feb 10 at 7:29 pm
Female circumcision.Great
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/06/2812147.htm

tal

9 Feb 10 at 7:34 pm
Not sure of your source for the “fingers in the knickers” detail there, CL. Just your excitable imagination getting away with you, I expect.

steve from brisbane

9 Feb 10 at 7:37 pm
Hey Tal, as Lefty Kim once said: “It would seem to me counterproductive to have loud denunciations of it.”

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 7:39 pm
You’re the one fantasising about Abbott’s teenage sex life, Steve. I’m just referring to the reports about Kevin Rudd, as a grown man, ogling strippers while pissed in New York. I may be wrong, though, to presume that the little weasel actually tipped the performers.

Incredible how the spirit of Fred Nile is spreading in Australia. Steve condemns the Leader of the Opposition for having sex before marriage and now wants to bring Australia into line with Tajikstan on drinking.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 7:43 pm
“TONY JONES: Right. Let’s get an answer – a specific answer – to Linna Wei’s question about raising the drinking age – the legal drinking age – to 21. Would you consider it?

KEVIN RUDD: I don’t have the evidence in front of me to say whether we can or whether we can’t. I’d just rather be straight up with you and say…

TONY JONES: Would you like to?

KEVIN RUDD: Of course. I mean – you mean would I like to?

TONY JONES: Would you like to raise the drinking age to 21? Of course.

KEVIN RUDD: I believe in something called evidence-based policy, which is if the evidence is there and it’s capable of being proven that it works, then we look at these things and make a decision. But you’re asking me for a personal impression. You don’t run policy that way, Tony.”

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s2811552.htm?show=transcript

badm0f0

9 Feb 10 at 7:44 pm
Good one Abbott on that one. Freaking wowser Kev wants raise the drinking age. What a complete douche Kev is.

The infidel is 100% right about Abbott’s attitude towards his gals and the reaction from the left-wing.

Meanwhile the former two bit bureaucrat wants to raise the age and their all silent.

Hypocritical douches.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 7:48 pm
I believe in something called evidence-based policy.

That must explain why four young men are dead after Rudd rushed through a dopey “free” insulation scheme that his minister has now shut down – citing the need for technical advice.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 7:50 pm
BadO

Are you presenting that as some sort of evidence to support the former two bit little bureaucrat?

If you are it make the creep look worse as he seems he has no freaking anchor other than what focus groups tell him.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 7:50 pm
Hey CL, if we’re actually discussing stuff in a running series of comments, can you stop this sudden turning to the audience and addressing them directly by referring to me in the third person? I can’t be the only person who finds this habit of yours irritating.

Back to the point – fantasy of Abbott having sex without condom? It’s his former girlfriend who confirmed it, unless there’s another meaning to “playing Vatican roulette” that I’m not aware of.

And do try to be accurate – I’m suggesting I could live with 20 as a compromise age, with the ability of licenced premises to set higher limits if they want without fear of breaching anti discrimination laws.

steve from brisbane

9 Feb 10 at 7:51 pm
Bado, you moron…

The little twerp was hedging his bet. A real male that is a alpha male would say exactly what Abbott did. Which is we aren’t wowsers.

We don’t require evidence that young people take risks and die, you doofus. That’s been happening since man has been around.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 7:53 pm
Has there actually been more deaths of the young as a result of drinking?

I thought the evidence that badO was suggesting Beta-Rudd required actually showed death rates are down across all groups… Despite the recent horrific accidents which dosn’t exactly require immediate kneejerk like most things..

Furtherhmore it’s none of Beta-Rudd’s Business as these issues are state factors.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 7:58 pm
Steve now cites Abbott’s teenage girlfriend on what they were up to in the back seat of some car back in the 70s. If you believe Rudd, we know what he was doing in the back seat of his family car way back when: his home work. You’re really becoming kind of despicable with your ad homs, Steve – moving effortlessly from eyeball analysis to tut-tutting about pre-marital sex.

Why are you talking about a “compromise” age? Compromise for and in relation to what? To appease whom? To solve what?

But if you’re now settled on 20, Australia will be able to raise its head proudly knowing we’re now in line with Paraguay, Iceland and suicide heavyweight, Japan.

Well done.

Oh, and if you’re 19 and home from Afghanistan on leave, Steve wants you to be arrested if you’re at a pub having a pot with your mates.

C.L.

9 Feb 10 at 8:07 pm
What’s it like being married to Rev. Lovejoy, steve?

Infidel Tiger

9 Feb 10 at 8:13 pm
it will help the late night violence issue in the clubs districts of the capital cities.

Oh, the Commissioner Overland solution.

1. Avoid getting mugged so dress poor.

2. Raise the drinking age.

All because as a commissioner I’m too incompetent to figure out ways to prevent the violence and I’d rather hang around with trannies getting cheered.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 8:21 pm
Wowserism – punishing the 99% for the 1% behaviour since time immemorial.

Maybe you can campaign for a carbon free, bubble wrapped Australia, steve, you pathetic suburban nancy boy.

Infidel Tiger

9 Feb 10 at 8:24 pm
Isn’t the legal age for drink something that’s in the jurisdiction of the States? Why’s Kevvie sticking his nose in?

Adrien

9 Feb 10 at 8:41 pm
IT: I didn’t even say that I thought it an issue worth pursuing vigorously, but your contribution has been very helpful. Ta.

CL can’t help himself but misrepresent a point, thinking that I’m tut-tutting about Abbott having pre-marital sex, when the point was plainly about it being peculiar that Tony tells us to accept risk taking when he displayed in his own life the undesirable consequences of his youthful risky venture of sex without contraception.

steve from brisbane

9 Feb 10 at 8:55 pm
...thinking that I’m tut-tutting about Abbott having pre-marital sex, when the point was plainly about it being peculiar that Tony tells us to accept risk taking when he displayed in his own life the undesirable consequences of his youthful risky venture of sex without contraception.

You weren’t? Oh.

Hang on but you just did.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 8:58 pm
I think Hopey change is done. It’s just boring having to wait for the election.

Look, there Hillary sharpening up the kitchen knife.

Obama Hits Lowest Approval Mark.

ndependent voters see Pres. Obama in a negative light by a nearly 2-1 margin, according to a new Marist College survey, while almost half of voters say he has failed to meet their expectations.

The poll, conducted Feb. 1-3, showed just 44% of registered voters approving of Obama’s job as president. 47% disapprove. But among indie voters, Obama’s approval rating sits at a terrible 29%, while his disapproval rating is at 57%.

JC

9 Feb 10 at 9:03 pm
I don’t like defending Rudd, but having watched the Q&A, I didn’t think he was really supporting a rise in drinking age… Requoting:

“TONY JONES: Right. Let’s get an answer – a specific answer – to Linna Wei’s question about raising the drinking age – the legal drinking age – to 21. Would you consider it?

KEVIN RUDD: I don’t have the evidence in front of me to say whether we can or whether we can’t. I’d just rather be straight up with you and say…

TONY JONES: Would you like to?

KEVIN RUDD: Of course. I mean – you mean would I like to?

[audience laughter]

I think he took the “Would you like to” to be a reference to having the evidence – before realising it meant something else… that said, Abbott was still right, and gave a much better answer.

Fleeced

9 Feb 10 at 11:13 pm
To clarify, it doesn’t matter whether “the evidence” says people under 21 are more prone to abuse of alcohol (that’s kinda how you learn) – it’s a case of personal responsibility – and so Rudd is still a poll-driven wowser to give the answer he gave.

Fleeced

9 Feb 10 at 11:17 pm
He’s just hedging his bet, Fleeced.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 12:02 am
I realise that, JC… and to use use a Ruddism, “Frankly, at the end of the day,” that’s even worse… he didn’t mean to make the statement attributed to him (that the drinking age should be lifted to 21), but the whole “depends on the evidence” thing was weak! As I said, the “evidence” doesn’t matter at all – it’s a question of individual liberty.

Abbott is no libertarian either, to be sure (especially after his maternity-leave scheme,) but he is certainly the better candidate from a libertarian perspective.

Fleeced

10 Feb 10 at 12:34 am
…he displayed in his own life the undesirable consequences of his youthful risky venture.

What “undesirable consequences” might they be, Reverend Steve?

And doesn’t that mean that drunken stripper aficionado Rudd should refrain from lecturing Australians about sensible drinking and bumping up the age of drinkerly consent?

What a shamefully dishonest and stupid switcheroo you’re trying on here.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 12:49 am
I think Abbott isn’t a closed book and although he shows a nasty streak of big government conservatism he may be brought over to the dark side with the right advice

One guy we know could do it.

He’s spent a little bit of time talking to people at the CIS which is obviously a good thing.

He won me over with his unapologetic defense of freer labor markets and to be honest that is the biggest market to worry about.

I like him. I don’t agree with some of his centralization issues and things like the maternity leave ( a lot more actually), but I like him.

I could come out with egg on my face but I think Rudd has a problem with Abbott and he could be quite dangerous to him.

Look , libertarians are never going to reach the promised land and there’s no use pretending otherwise. I just want Rudd out of there ASAP. I just want that two bit tyrannical little creep out of the Lodge and the rest of that party in permanent opposition until they can learn that Hawke was never someone they should be embarrassed about.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 12:50 am
You’re right JC. There are probably Americans who are disappointed they got Reagan instead of Goldwater.

Here’s a pic of a man waiting for the perfect politician:

http://www.moonbattery.com/skeleton-in-chair.jpg

Infidel Tiger

10 Feb 10 at 1:02 am
A billboard appears in Minnesota.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 1:20 am
Fleeced,
I think you are right. Listening to it again, he was saying he would like to have the evidence. I thought at the time that Rudd would not have come out with a bold policy position like that (at least, the closest he would ever get to one) without it being extensively trailed and leaked beforehand.
I bet that his policy people will now be scrambling (a la The Hollowmen) to come up with a paper justifying his error.
He would never admit to this just being a personal stuff up.

Andrew Reynolds

10 Feb 10 at 1:31 am
Peak oil takes another dump into the never never. As I keep saying, it’s technology and nothing else.

New Invention Using Spent Nuclear Fuel Rods Could Unlock U.S. Oil Reserves Three Times Larger Than Saudi Arabia’s

http://www.businessinsider.com/spend-nuclear-fuel-rods-could-unlock-dirt-cheap-tar-sands-oil-2010-2?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+clusterstock+%28ClusterStock%29

JC

10 Feb 10 at 3:00 am
Well I guess that sex-with-his-girlfriend-without-a- condom Tony knows a lot about taking risks.

You live in a sad, sad world if you think this would make anyone think badly of anyone. I mean, really? 100% of non-virgins have had sex with their partner without a condom at some stage.

They have also taken a shit and picked their nose. It’s what humans do.

Yobbo

10 Feb 10 at 4:20 am
Oh dear.

In James Buchanan’s latest essay, it sounds like he is endorsing Birdian monetary economics

http://www.rmm-journal.de/downloads/010_buchanan.pdf

Radical rethinking is required here—a rethinking that has not occurred since
the Great Depression.
Individual choices to shift nominally valued assets among differentially leveraged
accounts cannot be allowed to generate multiplier effects over the whole
system. Some modern equivalent of one hundred percent, or full, reserve banking
must finally be installed and enforced. The Glass-Stegall efforts to separate
deposit and investment banking should presumably be updated and put in play.
Some extension-application of the antitrust laws to the banking conglomerations
seems to be in order here. And, economists, in particular, must break free
from institutionally imposed biases and, instead, imagine settings in which the
liberties of traders to choose among alternatives are utilized in tandem with the
tools available through the wonders of modern electronic technology, while, at
the same time, still achieving some close approximation of ideal money neutrality.

Jason Soon

10 Feb 10 at 7:58 am
It’s not an important topic to debate CL & Yobbo; it was an aside, said with a slight sense of humour (the lack of understanding the tone of a comment probably accounts for about 50% of wordage on this argumentative blog.)

I actually recently became aware of a rumour which, if true (but I have it on pretty strong grounds) I expect would be damaging to Mr A. But I’ll have to sit back and wait to see if anyone else is going to repeat it.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 8:42 am
Meanwhile, keep checking if those lists are alphabetical or not, CL.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 8:43 am
Ah, right. The Reverend Steve now claims the subject he’s been raving on about was an “aside.” Keep checking the eyeballs of your enemies, Reverend. I’m sure that will keep pointing you in the right direction.

Meanwhile, the SMH quotes a teen Twitterer on our wowser-in-chief’s embarrassingly scolding performance on Q&A:

“Kevin Rudd is ripping into the sort of girls who denied him sex in high school.”

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 11:24 am
His loony insulation scheme having already killed four people, it’s now being reported:

HUNDREDS of homes that have been fitted with foil insulation under the Rudd government’s stimulus program have been turned into potential death traps because installers have laid the insulation over live wires or used metal fasteners, causing it to become electrified.

An audit of almost 1000 homes in Queensland has found that in about 2 per cent of cases, foil insulation was installed inappropriately, causing the roof to become “live”. This means that if home owners enter their roof space and touch the insulation, they could be shocked or electrocuted.

The Rudd government’s anti-warming insulation idea has killed or endangered more people than “climate change.”

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 11:27 am
America land of the free.

Why can’t we have proper cuisine like this here in Australia? Because the health nazis would be jumping all over to ban it

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,528069,00.html

jtfsoon

10 Feb 10 at 11:47 am
I like my burgers but that is too much.

dover_beach

10 Feb 10 at 11:49 am
Fme.. 8,000 calories.

The Quadruple Bypass Burger contains around 8,000 calories, which is fitting for a restaurant whose motto is “a taste worth dying for.”

JC

10 Feb 10 at 11:51 am
The 1.5 kg steak available in Sydney not enough for you, Jason?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/lifestyle/dubbed-sydneys-biggest-steak-chophouse-restaurants-prime-rib-weighs-in-at-15kg/story-e6frf00i-1225777185639

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 11:57 am
That whole restaurant would be closed down in this country – which is a sad indictment of the state of freedom in Australia. I can just see the Rev. Rudd weighing into the controversy:

I make no apologies for doing all I can to save the lives of Australia’s vulnerable burger addicts and – with all the compassion I displayed at Scores nightclub and towards an RAAF flight attendant who brought me the wrong meal – I also make no apology for banning the degrading notion of waitresses dressed as nurses. Furthermore, I make no apology for calling for fast food to be banned from sale for anyone under 21.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 11:58 am
Rudd is perhaps the mos annoying, irritating politician and form bureaucrat in this country.

The fucking moron asks himself questions and then answers them. It’s like the idiot is having a conversation with himself.

That Q&A performance was woeful.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 12:02 pm
On the bright side, it’s good to know that we could replace the Canberra press gallery with a classroom of kids and get a more accountable government.

Infidel Tiger

10 Feb 10 at 12:06 pm
“That whole restaurant would be closed down in this country – which is a sad indictment of the state of freedom in Australia.”

Bloody hell. Talk about your ultimate straw man argument. (I suppose I should allow for it being exaggeration with partly humorous intent, though?)

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 12:08 pm
Yea Tiger:

They were really a bunch of smart freaking kids and had no timidity in terms of going after him if they thought he was skirting the question.

Rudd really got body slammed in more than a few instances there.

I liked how that kid went after him about the veracity of the IPCC after all the dishonesty from Phil Jone’s mob and Doc Pach being a dishonest, lying, greedy, swami douchebag.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 12:11 pm
God help the restaurant if the waitresses had small boobs

tal

10 Feb 10 at 12:12 pm
Real food.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 12:13 pm
God help the restaurant if the waitresses had small boobs

damn right

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 12:14 pm
Yea, can you imagine.. A restaurant carrying a burger of that size and small breasted waitresses.

Wouldn’t stand a chance in this country.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 12:15 pm
Avatards Bono looks the same to me
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/entertainment/sydney-confidential/gallery-e6frex89-1225828229702?page=1

tal

10 Feb 10 at 12:21 pm
I must visit the Commercial; I do love a parma, chips and salad.

dover_beach

10 Feb 10 at 12:22 pm
Uh oh. Another symbol of Dubai’s fortunes:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7021145.ece

Infidel Tiger

10 Feb 10 at 12:24 pm
A salad Dover! You big girl

tal

10 Feb 10 at 12:24 pm
I had to look up what a parmiagana was.

I’m not a great fan of Italian cheeses like parmesan, I find them too smelly. Cheddar cheese on a buger is as hardcore as I’ll get

jtfsoon

10 Feb 10 at 12:30 pm
And yet you eat durian Jason Go figure

tal

10 Feb 10 at 12:31 pm
Oh dear. The NYT on famous philosopher Bernard Henry Levy:

“In his newest book, Mr. Lévy attacked the 18th-century German philosopher Immanuel Kant as a madman, and in support cited the Paraguayan lectures of Jean-Baptiste Botul to his 20th-century followers.

In fact Mr. Botul is the longtime creature of Frédéric Pagès, a journalist with the satirical weekly Le Canard Enchaîné. “We’ve had a big laugh, obviously,” Mr. Pagès said of Mr. Lévy. “This one was an error that was really simple that the media immediately understood.”

Mr. Pagès has never made a secret of his fictional philosopher, who has a fan club that meets monthly in salons throughout Paris.

Mr. Botul’s school of thought is called Botulism, his followers are botuliennes and they debate such weighty theories as the metaphysics of flab. As they describe it, Mr. Botul’s astonishing ideas ranged from phenomenology to cheese, sausages, women’s breasts and the transport of valises during the 1930s.”

How amusing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/10/world/europe/10levy.html?hpw

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 12:33 pm
Yeah I know tal, and people who can eat all those smelly chesses can’t eat durian.

It’s hard to explain. It’s a different kind of smelly, one I’m not used to as opposed to one I am used to.

jtfsoon

10 Feb 10 at 12:34 pm
Statman,,
you ONLY use Parmesan on a decent pasta.
You eat pasta to complement the red wine

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

10 Feb 10 at 12:37 pm
Durian and smelly cheeses both smell like bin juice to me

tal

10 Feb 10 at 12:40 pm
Homer can even make wine and food boring. Got any reading tips?

Infidel Tiger

10 Feb 10 at 12:43 pm
I had to look up what a parmiagana was.

I’m gobsmacked.

I’m not a great fan of Italian cheeses like parmesan, I find them too smelly.

That’s because their authentic cheeses. I love cheese almost as much as meat.

dover_beach

10 Feb 10 at 12:45 pm
On a more serious note, it appears quite likely that a key quote the loopy Lord uses in his lectures (I watched part of his Canberra show) is a fabrication that may well have started with our own Piers
Ackerman!:

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/fabricated-quote-used-to-discredit-climate-scientist-1894552.html

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 12:59 pm
Steve:

Houghton’s most likely lying. He most probably made the comment. The fact that he’s giving a qualifier with the comment being part suggests he’s lying.

As for the Independent giving Bios about those sceptics it lists as not being climate scientist…..

The Crooked Doc. Pach is a railway engineer.

James Hansen was never formally trianed in climate science.

And the Goebels like chief propagandist of the AGW alarmist Industry, Gavin Schmidt is also not trained in climate science.

Try and adjust you mind to the fact that there are lots of charlatans, freaks and money grabbers in this area of science who need to be swept away.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 1:10 pm
JC, I’ve already said on this blog that Doc Pach should resign.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 1:23 pm
Australia’s premier sissy police “service” is back in the news. This time, the weaklings couldn’t break up a simple blue without…

Victoria Police is under pressure to review its policy on the use of capsicum spray after 60 people had to be evacuated from Melbourne’s Children’s Court on Monday.

Witnesses say weeping children had to have their faces washed down by adults after the spray was used to break up a fight between two men.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 1:25 pm
Good insight into the unreality and partisanship of the press corps. (Or corpse men as Barack Obama might call them).

Bolt summarises the laughable flip-floppery of Paul Kelly.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 1:30 pm
It really is the premier sissy force in the country.

“Oh there’s a fight… quick get the fight-repellent can out of my purse over there”.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 1:32 pm
Hundreds of examples of female genital mutilation are discovered in Melbourne every year:

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/hundreds_mutilated/

Who are the filthy barbarians that are behind this?

Michael Fisk

10 Feb 10 at 1:57 pm
On a more serious note, it appears quite likely that a key quote the loopy Lord uses in his lectures (I watched part of his Canberra show) is a fabrication that may well have started with our own Piers
Ackerman!

On a serious note? Here we have Steven Schneider expressing a similar sentiment to that, purportedly, expressed by Houghton:

So, we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have.

The alarmists are particularly desperate, trawling for anything to distract from their obvious failings.

dover_beach

10 Feb 10 at 1:57 pm
The IPCC has been shown to be a completeley fraudulent and criminal outfit. Their defence?

“That man used a hanging particple and ended a sentence with a prepostion.”

Infidel Tiger

10 Feb 10 at 2:06 pm
And he has funny eyes, according to Steve.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 2:10 pm
Steyn on the Climategate, NYT, and Pachauri:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YmQ5ZjIxOWE4MzBmM2RhNGMzNWNkODFiZDQxODdiOGE=

Bull’s Eye.

dover_beach

10 Feb 10 at 2:10 pm
It’s interesting how the alarmists are trying to smack down Monckton with the… He’s not a climate scientists shtick.

It’s true, he isn’t. I don’t particularly care for Monckton very much. However this dissing is par for the course for these layabouts.

Monckton’s direct comparison on the other side is Lardulous Gore who has remained remarkably silent since his old money bags buddy, Doc. Pach was caught with his hand in numerous cookie jars.

Pound for pound (no pun Intended) Monckton has a better resume than the former divinity school drop out.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 2:13 pm
JC, your Boeing stock tip is looking better by the day:

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2010/02/08/boeing-flies-its-biggest-plane-to-date/

Infidel Tiger

10 Feb 10 at 2:14 pm
Funny eyes and relies on imaginary quotes that no one can find.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 2:21 pm
Tiger:

It’s a 150 buck stock. The rest of the street simply doesn’t realize it

The new 747 is a direct attack on the Aitbus. And they’ll drive aribus intto the ground in the giant plane market as the 380 is a heap of shit glued together with urine.

Put the US Export/Import Bank in there loaning out cash to all the world’s airlines to buy the planes, ignoring little things like non existent credit ratings and such piffle… The stock his heading to 150 bucks.

Wake me up when It gets there. LOL

————-

Steyn… from CL’s link is hilarious.

Let’s take another example: The launch festivities for his warmographic novel (in which he demonstrates an obsession with bosomly swell on a par with noted breast man Andrew Sullivan) were paid for by BP. Curious. Big Oil sponsoring Big Breasts for Big Climate.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 2:23 pm
JC, you ought to toddle off to the Lambert/Monckton debate this Friday. I think it would make your explode with contradictory thoughts.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 2:26 pm
your head explode…

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 2:26 pm
Jc’s wife won’t let him go

tal

10 Feb 10 at 2:28 pm
Lambert v Monckton

hmmm not sure who i’d rather see fall flat on his face

jtfsoon

10 Feb 10 at 2:28 pm
Sounds fun. Never been to a dwarf throwing comp.

Infidel Tiger

10 Feb 10 at 2:31 pm
Steve:

No. I don’t think it would be a good idea, as I’m a shy type and would feel intimidated by Shiny because of how smart and knowledgeable he is in such topics like Iraqi death rates from the war, DDT, St. Rachael Carlson, AGW, sending hate mail to fellow bloggers, sucking up to second rate authors and last and least, IT and teaching it.

However I think it would be a great idea if Bird went, as I’m sure his knowledge in these matters pitted against Shiny would be very interesting and highly entertaining. In fact the closest analogy I could think of would be a mud wrestling competition between two fat, nasty dwarfs, which is not an attempt to criticize their appearance or anything.

If he did go Hilton could arrange so they have a mud wrestling ring set up.

I’m sure his Lordship would be very interested in seeing what his antipodean subjects get up to for fun.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 2:41 pm
JC
why don’t you make an offer to Bird – pay for his ticket, arrange a limousine to take him there, pay for a free meal and booze.

jtfsoon

10 Feb 10 at 2:44 pm
Might I also point out that Lambert cannot help his height, and it’s extremely insensitive of you lot to always be referring to him as a poison dwarf, or some such. (Because we know how sensitive CL is to jokes about people’s appearance.)

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 2:46 pm
Sounds fun. Never been to a dwarf throwing comp.

I’m ashamed to admit that I saw one once in Atlantic City, undisputed cultural capital of America.

We had a trader’s boozy weekend away and ended up in a casino that was hosting a comp. It was so freaking funny I almost died laughing.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 2:47 pm
“On a more serious note, it appears quite likely that a key quote the loopy Lord uses in his lectures (I watched part of his Canberra show) is a fabrication that may well have started with our own Piers Ackerman!”

No surprises there Steve. Akers has got form when it comes to manufacturing quotes and events.

BirdLab

10 Feb 10 at 2:48 pm
That’s fine Jason… I’m quite happy to arrange a car to pick Bird to attend the “debate”.

Hey Bird, I know you’re reading this. If you would like to attend I’d be happy to spot the travel expense for a car service to pick you up, take you there and then get you home. I’ll also spot no more than a maximum of 38 drinks.

I think the debate would be best served if you attended and asked some hard questions of either debater…. Of course I wouldn’t know who.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 2:51 pm
The other condition is that those 38 drinks have to be consumed before question time …

jtfsoon

10 Feb 10 at 2:53 pm
“…quotes that no one can find.”

Mmm, this is an observation from the Rev. Steve, who invented all sorts of quotes and angles on what Tony Abbott said about sexuality.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 2:56 pm
Might I also point out that Lambert cannot help his height, and it’s extremely insensitive of you lot to always be referring to him as a poison dwarf, or some such.

Steve, I agree it’s highly insensitive of me.

However Shiny has frequently put up pics of Monckton deliberately showing his bulging eyes, vids of conservatives with funny voices and also lets the psyche ward inmates at his site have the run of the house in terms of what they say about people etc.

So, being a fair person, I thought it was only proper to highlight some of his numerous afflictions and distortions , which is why terms like poison dwarf, Shiny etc. come up at times.

In other words dwarfs living in glass houses shouldn’t be throwing stones.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 2:57 pm
Steve, you dishonest bozo, Monckton suffers from a DISEASE – a trying, taxing, debilitating DISEASE.

Lambert doesn’t suffer from a disease. He just happens to be knee-high to a wallaby.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 3:00 pm
“I think the debate would be best served if you attended and asked some hard questions of either debater…”

Do you think either of them would be able to get a word in through the endless stream of Birdbabble?

BirdLab

10 Feb 10 at 3:00 pm
Ratty Rudd’s Q&A answers fact-checked:

———————

RHETORIC: “Laptops, which is computers in schools, we said we would have a computer for every young person at secondary school from Year 9 and above by, I seem to recall, 2013 or thereabouts.”

REALITY: The original 2007 election commitment was for the laptops to be rolled out in four years (by 2011).
—————————————-
RHETORIC: “We are on track to doing that. We have about 260,000 computers out there in schools now … can I just say that is a fact.”

REALITY: According to Senate estimates, 154,000 of the one million promised laptops are in operation.

—————————————-

RHETORIC: “My predecessor ripped a billion dollars out of the public hospital system.”

REALITY: According to the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, federal government expenditure on public hospitals went from $5.2bn in 1995-96 to $10.7bn in 2006-07.

—————————————-

RHETORIC: “In our two years in office, and our predecessors were there for 12, we’ve increased investment in hospitals by 50 per cent.”

REALITY: According to the intergenerational report, an additional 11 per cent of funding over the next five years is going into the hospital and health system above what was already in previous agreements.

—————————————-

RHETORIC: “Since we’ve taken this measure on alcopops, the consumption of alcopops, I think, has gone down by about 33 per cent.”

REALITY: Alcopops consumption initially went down by 25 per cent before starting to increase. Treasury estimates further increases in consumption in the coming years.

—————————————-

RHETORIC: “If the states and territories do not accept the government’s reform plan for the future of health and hospitals, then we will go to the people and seek a mandate to take over overall responsibility for the system.”

REALITY: What happened to the timing from Kevin Rudd’s August 23, 2007, press release? “If by mid-2009 the commonwealth and the states and territories have not begun implementing the National Health Reform Plan, a proposition for the commonwealth to assume full funding responsibility will be developed and put to the Australian people.”

—————————————-

RHETORIC: “We’ve increased also the number of nurses for training.”

REALITY: Nicola Roxon on Sky News yesterday admitted the government had attracted only 800 out of an anticipated 8000 new nurses in the Bringing the Nurses back to the Workplace Program, two years into a four-year program.

—————————————-

RHETORIC: “Unemployment here – it’s 5.8 per cent. It’s the second-lowest of all the major advanced economies in the world.”

REALITY: South Korea 3.5 per cent; The Netherlands 4.0 per cent; Switzerland 4.6 per cent; Japan 5.1 per cent; Austria 5.4 per cent; and Mexico 5.4 per cent.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 3:01 pm
A third person would have to attend and video it. An edited version of the highlights could be an internet sensation.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 3:04 pm
I’m calling this the debate between the “Lord and the Dwarf”.

It has a nice catchy Hollywood big blockbuster sound to it.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 3:04 pm
“Because household safety is a complete priority for the program, that means that we want to make sure that every household that has foil insulation in it will have an appropriate safety inspection,” Mr Garrett said.

Tens of thousands of homes will now have to be checked nationwide, with the Government to pick up the bill.

Someone explain to me why a man who presided over the deaths of four people and the creation of potentially hundreds of “death traps” hasn’t been sacked.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 3:11 pm
Oh dear God, Habib in a play about Gitmo
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/09/2814862.htm

tal

10 Feb 10 at 3:13 pm
Cost of the insulation safety inspections:

$50,000,000.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 3:14 pm
Actually, CL, surely the workplace safety aspects of any insulation installation business (foil or otherwise) would be a State government responsibility. I mean, at least one of the deaths was just from heat exhaustion. How did you expect Rudd to prevent that?

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 3:16 pm
Oh, that’s interesting. Marty Feldman’s eyes were caused by Graves Disease too (according to Wikipedia). Maybe other people knew that, but I didn’t.

So one guy used his unfortunate eyes to help his comedy career. The other guy doesn’t make reference to it at all, but has a heap of acolytes getting upset on his behalf about people referring to his eyes. Storm in a teacup, CL.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 3:25 pm
So Steve, now you’ve declared open season on disabilities, can we ridicule your chronic bed-wetting?

Infidel Tiger

10 Feb 10 at 3:27 pm
Yeah, that’s why Garrett is making policy on the run about it, Steve, and why the taxpayers of Australia are about to blow $50 million to fix up the mess created with this loopy insulation stunt: it’s the responsibility of State governments.

Rudd and Garrett’s big idea has killed more people than “climate change.”

I mean, at least one of the deaths was just from heat exhaustion.

At least? Note the dishonesty again from Steve. He implies that maybe more than one of the deaths was just an unforseeable freak accident.

In October last year, an installer was electrocuted while putting foil insulation in a Brisbane home’s roof.

No:

The following month, a 16-year-old worker was electrocuted while installing insulation at Stanwell, southwest of Rockhampton.

The same month, a 19-year-old insulation worker died in Sydney after emerging from the searing heat of a roof space.

And earlier this month, a 25-year-old worker was electrocuted while working in a ceiling at Millaa Millaa, southwest of Cairns.

The 19 year-old who died of heat exhaustion, Marcus Wilson, was an intellectually handicapped man. It was his first day at work. He got two weeks of “training” and that was good enough for the Rudd government.

The collapse of warmening is having a lamentable effect on you, Steve. You now seem to be a person who enjoys making light of death and disease.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 3:32 pm
Sanctimonious twaddle, CL.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 3:46 pm
(The bit about me, that is).

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 3:48 pm
Bloody hell, Steve. While you’ve been crapping on about climate change and the imminent extinction of the human race, you’ve been withholding important news. I had to discover this by accident at your blog.

It will be a different kind of show this year, since the sharpest wit, Annabel Crabb, last week gave birth to a son, Elliott James, who is now undergoing 24-hour worship with his happy mum at home.

Goddammit man! Let’s have some perspective.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 3:55 pm
The Glass-Stegall efforts to separate
deposit and investment banking should presumably be updated and put in play
.
Glass-Seagull updated? It was scrapped. If Clinton hadn’t scrapped it the GFC couldn’t've happened, yes or no?

Adrien

10 Feb 10 at 3:59 pm
Glad to be of service, Sinclair. (I think.) BTW, I think the link to me on the blogroll here disappeared after the collapse of the old Catallaxy. Why don’t you irritate CL and add me to it again?

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 4:00 pm
Sorry. willdo.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 4:01 pm
Adrien – no. It could still have happened.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 4:06 pm
Sinclair – Is there something somewhere that’d tell me why? I’d really like to know. Article, TV show, graffitti someplace?

Adrien

10 Feb 10 at 4:11 pm
Quick and easy, no. Unfortunately not.

Long story short. We seem to be having financial crises like this on a regular basis. It is usually a variation on a theme. The subprime crisis was caused by people creating and trading risks they didn’t understand. They were able to do so because there was too much liquidity in the financial system. The legislation that created subprime lending in the US was the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetay Control Act passed in 1980. This interacted with the reduced lending standards of the CRA (the CRA was used to increase lending to minorities, but had the effect of lowering lending standards for everyone) and the cheap finance of the 2000s to create the problems that occured.

The rest of the bank bashing is a case of the usual suspects using the usual arguments to accuse the usual culprits.

If you can, get hold of Lawrence White’s The crisis in American banking and read the chapter by Richard Salsman – it talks about the 1980sS&L crisis, yet it could be the GFC. Some story, 20 years later.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 4:20 pm
what absolute guff.
the standards for CRA were quite stringent.
There were little standards for sub-prime because the institutions who were the biggest exponents did not have deposits and so had little regulation.

Almost every regional Fed has examined sub-prime loans and CRA loans and NONE have found any similarities.

Monetary laxity. interest rates were merely 2% below the required Taylor rate and if it were lax how come it only ‘bubbled in housing?

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

10 Feb 10 at 4:43 pm
Does anybody in 2010 actually describe themselves as a “writer”? I mean, who isn’t a ‘writer’ nowadays? It’s like being a waiter.

Peter Patton

10 Feb 10 at 4:47 pm
Glass-Seagull updated? It was scrapped.

Not really. All they allowed was for Bank holding companies to be allowed to own and have I-banks subsidiaries. The actual bank itself was never allowed to conduct I-bank activities.

It was an easing of restrictions but it was a removal of the old act.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 4:56 pm
How hilarious is this…..?

Shiny high fives himself for being invited to the Lord and the Dwarf Debate with the:

“It’s so on” thread

And now he’s running a thread asking people what questions he ought to ask Monckton. If the loon is such an expert, why would he have to ask the psyche ward for questions?

Ad the pysche ward’s response so far has been appalling.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 5:06 pm
Shiny high fives himself

That sentence has a redundancy. The only person he could high five would be himself.

jtfsoon

10 Feb 10 at 5:08 pm
Does anybody in 2010 actually describe themselves as a “writer”?
.
Sure everyone writes. But it has a more narrow meaning too, that is, “author of books”. If you say so-and-so is a “writer” by way of introduction that’s what many people would take it to mean. And not everyone is an author of books.

daddy dave

10 Feb 10 at 5:09 pm
the standards for CRA were quite stringent.

Of course they were, you genius. That’s why Fred and Fannie are basket cases.

There were little standards for sub-prime because the institutions who were the biggest exponents did not have deposits and so had little regulation.

You really are an ignorant putz homer. I-banks had numerous regulators pouring through their books such as the SEC being one of many for instance. The banks that held sub-prime had the bank regulators.

Jeppers you’re a moron.

Monetary laxity. interest rates were merely 2% below the required Taylor rate and if it were lax how come it only ‘bubbled in housing?

Yes it was AGW that caused sub-prime.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 5:11 pm
The Euro busters.

We finally have news that Germany wants to look like Greece and the rest oft he deadbeats in the EU zone.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704182004575055292744721172.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection

Germany in talks to guarantee Greek loans. The Euro deserves to be at zero.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 5:29 pm
Steve from B, when you get the chance, can you tell me what Abbott’s eyes in this photo intimate:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/tony-abbotts-cut-through-climate-plan/story-e6frg6nf-1225826118352

dover_beach

10 Feb 10 at 5:29 pm
I thought he was trying to look dangerous and ruthless, DB. He hasn’t pursed the lips like Daniel Craig as Bond does, but he’s probably working on it in the mirror each day, once he’s out of his lycra.

Having said that, I must say it is better than Rudd’s “I’m busy working on my papers” psyche out tactic of Howard, which I found to be really annoying and insulting to Parliament, and I don’t know why it didn’t help put the public off him.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 5:51 pm
you have quite the grasp of facial expressions, steve

jtfsoon

10 Feb 10 at 5:53 pm
DB – that’s a great picture.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 5:53 pm
Everyone’s probably already seen it, but I thought Nicholson’s cartoon of Abbott in scanner this morning was very funny.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/gallery-e6frg6zx-1111119668403?page=1

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 5:58 pm
I wonder what swimming attire our Kevin wears?
Actualy no I don’t

tal

10 Feb 10 at 6:00 pm
A mankini like Borat’s?

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 6:05 pm
Maybe I have a special talent for conjuring disturbing mental images.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 6:09 pm
My sister-in-law offered to get me a mankini for my 40th, but Mrs D. begged her not to do so. Pity.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 6:15 pm
Sweet Jesus

tal

10 Feb 10 at 6:17 pm
“I thought he was trying to look dangerous and ruthless…”

Well at least he wasn’t going for the alien possession look:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9gn6KLa5xtY/R0w3Rmwu05I/AAAAAAAABF4/DJouR9gpV2I/s400/JulieBishopScary.jpg

BirdLab

10 Feb 10 at 6:20 pm
HAHAHAHAHA! Lambert is outsourcing his research to commenters, hey? Quick, Steve, now’s your chance to road test your eyeball rebuttal. Get over to Deltoid and pop in an eyeballian line of attack for Tim.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 6:22 pm
Now I’m getting Sinclair and Rudd in a mankini mud wrestle death match, with Bishop and Gillard as the tag team partners. Eating dinner anyone?

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 6:41 pm
dd

It would be interesting to try to measure if blogs like Catallaxy have actually improved people’s writing. I think mine has. One obvious reason is the mean mofos ever-ready to jump on any syntax, grammar, or typing transgression!

Peter Patton

10 Feb 10 at 6:47 pm
Steve, I wouldn’t want to wrestle with either Bishop or Gillard.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 6:59 pm
If you can, get hold of Lawrence White’s The crisis in American banking and read the chapter by Richard Salsman – it talks about the 1980sS&L crisis, yet it could be the GFC
.
Cheers for that.

Adrien

10 Feb 10 at 7:20 pm
Yea, Cl, the sloth is now asking people to give him question to ask suggesting he knows less about AGW than anyone else there.

It’s basically a redux of the Sydney book festival.

Lazy slob he is.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 7:21 pm
Forrest CRA loans were ONLY loans put out by BANKS!

wow Wrong AGAIN and ignorant twice.

err not Investment had little regulation on them as almost any person from the Fed or Regional Fed has either testified or talked about.

Have you read anything on this topic? silly me of course you haven’t that is why you are ignorant.

rounds off with no answer to why monetary laxity only affected the housing industry.

Indeed can interest rates only 2% below their Taylor rate be called lax?

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

10 Feb 10 at 7:37 pm
Currency Lad – A lefty automation, obviously the devoid product of a Dawkins university has written that Baroque painting is nothing but Catholic propoganda.
.
Go and set ‘em straight.

[Link was broken so I've added the link to SL. I suspect thats what you meant. Sinc]

Adrien

10 Feb 10 at 8:04 pm
Sorry CL, link was busted.
.
Here it is again. My post on a Baroque era artist (Cath’lic a course). Some people over there seem to to think I know what I’m talking about. You’re better informed on the Council of Trent and such matters. Rip it to shreds.
.
I can’t respond.
.
For the rest of you. Yeah I know you hate Art. There’s no numbers right? But it’s chockas with sex and violence. And you’ll see where The Godfather comes from.

Adrien

10 Feb 10 at 8:26 pm
Adrien – those birds in those paintings are fully clothed. How do you think Judith got into Holofernes tent? These biblical stories tend to have a bit of sex to offset the violence. Just asking.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 8:31 pm
Adrien if you are going to do a bit of reading on the GFC then these IEA publications are also worth considering.
http://www.iea.org.uk/record.jsp?type=book&ID=453

http://www.iea.org.uk/record.jsp?type=book&ID=495

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 8:35 pm
Speaking of D’yartz, i’m currently reading a biography of Shakespeare by Peter Ackroyd.

Some fascinating stuff there. Firstly Shakespeare’s numerous Catholic links which I recall were mentioned somewhere here once are also noted in the bio. It’s increasingly likely he may have been a crypto-Catholic.

Secondly he really was a canny businessman and entertainer. He also wasn’t in any way a stereotypical bookish type (country bred in fact). If Shakespeare were alive today he’d be more likely to be writing for HBO than some avant garde theatre company and would have some collaborations on the side with Hollywood producers.

Thirdly his stuff was genuinely popular with the masses and people didn’t sit quietly in the theatre to watch studiously. It was more like going to the circus, buying nuts in the middle of plays, talking through some of it, occasionally throwing stuff at performers.

Jason Soon

10 Feb 10 at 8:41 pm
“Forrest CRA loans were ONLY loans put out by BANKS”

While that is true, many of these were repackaged and sold by independent mortgage bankers.

“Have you read anything on this topic?”

Have you? Your cut and paste replies seem to be out of the ACRON song sheet of “walk around money”, blackmailing banks, advice to pimps etc.

Semi Regular Libertarian

10 Feb 10 at 8:42 pm
Interesting re Shakespeare. Rings true too. The Sopranos was very Shakespearean, in many ways.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 8:49 pm
CL. Amen. It is astonishing the unbelievable quality of all these serial US TV dramas. The BB Who?

Peter Patton

10 Feb 10 at 8:54 pm
Good Lord. Lindsey Tanner mocks Barnaby. Here’s how he defended the death toll from the Rudd-Garrett insulation debacle today:

“I don’t think it’s right to say we should have sat back … dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s because we were in a crisis situation,” he told Sky News.

Yeah, I remember. We had to insulate homes IMMEDIATELY to protect ourselves from those alien body snatchers. W-I-T-F is he talking about?

And non-sequitur virtuoso Garrett defended himself by, um, admitting that he was responsible:

Mr Garrett has refused to accept responsibility for the faults in the scheme, blaming rogue installers who’d failed to heed safety guidelines.

“My responsibility is to ensure we have a program that delivers insulation into people homes safely,” he said.

Got it in one, Einstein.

Peter Garrett fighting for political life as insulation crisis escalates.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 8:57 pm
Peter, it’s a good call. Shakespeare would have been a highly paid HBO writer or something like that. There’s no way he would have been some high-brow literary luvvie or – heaven forbid – university luvvie.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 9:06 pm
I’d love to participate in a debate about the arts, but I’m a rabid populist, I’m afraid, and such a view tends to not go down well.
It’s my view that the arts is best understood as (in this order)
a) an industry;
b) a cultural phenomenon (in a psychological or anthropoligical sense)
c) the craft and science of entertaining others, and/or eliciting emotions and ideas through art.
.
Therefore, a slightly nuanced but nonetheless mostly populist foundation.
.
Given this, the following can be said about 20th century arts
1. John Lennon was important; Ted Hughes was not.
2. the most significant literary movements of the 20th century were the evolution of the crime drama and the emergence of the science fiction/fantasy genre;
3. punk is more important than opera;
4. hip hop dance is more important than ballet;
etc. You get the idea.
and yes, this does elevate Stephen King to the status of “great artist”.

daddy dave

10 Feb 10 at 9:21 pm
CL, I’m going to give you (sort of) credit. I can see after the 7.30 Report how politically damaging these insulation accidents will be. It sounds like the State governments, who – as I noted before – are the ones technically responsible for the safety aspects of the industry, warned the Feds that they simply couldn’t monitor the sudden surge in business.

steve from brisbane

10 Feb 10 at 9:22 pm
Stephen King and I suppose Barbara Cartland are ‘great artists’ by definition according to your own definition. All very logical I suppose but not very interesting. what do *you* think makes great art and how do you justify it is more interesting or do you have no opinions on this at all?

It’s possible to recognise popular arts have artistic merit while not falling into some solely tautological market research based approach to it e.g. I think Stephen King’s works actually have artistic value in terms of the richness and memorableness of his plots and some of his characters and their ability to entertain while still capturing some psychological depth of humanity whereas I think Barbara Cartland or to be less sexist, Dan Brown, doesn’t.

Jason Soon

10 Feb 10 at 9:30 pm
We’ve discussed this before. If one went on sales and hits alone, Dylan would be minor, Leonard Cohen obscure, and the Velvet Underground absolutely irrelevant. Sometimes unpopular works affect people very deeply, which is why looking at breadth of influence is one-sided.

THR

10 Feb 10 at 9:38 pm
Whereas Meatloaf is a best-seller. Go figure

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 9:39 pm
Garrett cooks up a stupid scheme that ends up killing people because he’s too fucking incompetent to see to it that it’s executed properly and now he won’t take the rap.

Meanwhile Tanner offers that nonsense as defense but Barn door is the bad guy.

Earlier Rudd couldn’t even converse with 16 old kids without looking a like goose and needs sworn evidence to determine if we need to raise the drinking age because he can’t reach that conclusion himself.

These are some really great people we’re relying on.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 9:39 pm
If any businessman claimed that he had to compromise on OHS because there was a crisis on, he’d go to jail.

Sinclair Davidson

10 Feb 10 at 9:41 pm
And I’m not sure that Shakespeare wasn’t ‘bookish’. If anything, he was hyper-bookish, but his creativity found expression in a form popular in the times. Shakespeare was hardly unique in that respect; Marlowe was hardly the Elizabethan equivalent of Friends.

THR

10 Feb 10 at 9:49 pm
If any businessman claimed that he had to compromise on OHS because there was a crisis on, he’d go to jail.

Not true, Sinclair. Businessmen can virtually commit manslaughter at will, and generally have little more than a fine to fear. As for ‘compromising on OHS’ – virtually every employer does it.

Some of the attacks here on Rudd seem a bit desperate lately. Badmofo linked to the drinking age thing, and Rudd’s actual position isn’t too controversial. Insipid, maybe, but not controversial.

THR

10 Feb 10 at 9:53 pm
CL

I think Shakespeare would have been an independent writer/director/producer. But he would definitely write for HBO! Different sorts of writing require different sorts of skills. I imagine there are real skill to writing for The Sun that few of us would have, especially when it comes to the headlines!

The great tragedy of the Australian film industry is the writing. Because so many sources of funding for Australian film writers are state Arts/Literature bodies, there are always criteria attached to the dough, and they are invariably about ‘inclusion’ and all that crap.

Peter Patton

10 Feb 10 at 9:59 pm
The world comes full circle when ignorant cry babies (emailing people left right and center that his feeling are hurt like Harry Clarke) is now criticizing other people.

Update: Samuel J probably the worst of the right-wing ignorami at Catallaxy gets it horribly wrong by suggesting that an individual nation cannot implement a CPRS so that Turnbull is a traitor to liberalism and small government! What a bad joke!

Funny but I thought the old Doctor’s wife said that he was turning over a new leaf and not going to engage in flame wars between blogs.

Like a mangy old dog unable hold back temptation to lick his own vomit.

He’s my bet. I bet Harry would be unable and is too incompetent to explain the ETS, as he doesn’t really understand it or the consequences other than thinking it good.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 10:05 pm
THR
I didn’t say Shakespeare wasn’t bookish merely that he wasn’t stereotypically or just bookish. Remember he started off as an actor. Some of his enemies wrote a play lampooning him as a character called Prickshaft because he had a reputation for lechery, he was wordly and probably engaged in usury, etc.

Jason Soon

10 Feb 10 at 10:09 pm
The Socialist Alternative will be protesting against Obama when he visits Australia

LOL

http://www.sa.org.au/imperialism-and-war/2573-obama-should-not-be-welcomed

Jason Soon

10 Feb 10 at 10:14 pm
Homer:

“Forrest CRA loans were ONLY loans put out by BANKS”

Dagwood, I can appreciate the fact that thinking isn’t one of your strong points however the CRA wasn’t just the part you describe. It was the thinking that permeated through all facets of the government and was also a pretty bi-partisan policy to get lower income people to own their homes with borrowed money.

To avoid the fact, like you do, that both Fred and Fannie and essentially broke and leveraged at 125:1 is truly massive incompetent for anyone to call themselves an economist.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 10:19 pm
Bloody hell. Garrett has to go.

“He also revealed that he was warned last year of safety concerns within the scheme.”

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 10:20 pm
Businessmen can virtually commit manslaughter at will, and generally have little more than a fine to fear. As for ‘compromising on OHS’ – virtually every employer does it.

Sadly, unless anything has changed very recently, this is true. There was an abortive attempt to pass corporate manslaughter laws in Victoria in 2002, and push to introduce corporate manslaughter after the Longford gas explosion. However, it’s very difficult to effectively prosecute corporations. They’re legal “people”, of course, but it can be hard to work out who exactly should be responsible for their actions.

I have also helped implement OHS laws at another company. At the company where I helped implement OHS laws, they were meticulous and I even got told off for not holding on to the bannister when I was going down the stairs. I have acted as a defence lawyer for companies convicted of OHS breaches. That was a hard, hard job. The conduct of one of the companies in question was appalling in the extreme. Their lack of care for their employees had led to some men being injured in simply horrendous ways. The reports of the injuries made me want to throw up. And when we went to advise them that they’d better pay up their WorkCover fines PDQ, they had the temerity to ask if there was any defence available. I’m very glad to say that we said sternly that there was no defence for that kind of breach. People criticise lawyers for acting for “big corporates” but in a situation like that, I hope we actually did some good, and perhaps prevented other employees from being injured.

But yeah – the insulation thing is one of those things where the government had good intentions (help people use less energy). Regardless of climate change or whatever, surely it’s better that people use resources efficiently. But they produced incentives for employers to skimp on training and material to cash in on the money that suddenly became available. I think they were probably thinking in grand gestures that would make them look good. Law of unintended consequences strikes again.

Legal Eagle

10 Feb 10 at 10:21 pm
Jason’s link:

“And if that was not enough Obama is sabre rattling about Iran and Yemen, and actively widening the spheres of conflict to new countries like Haiti and Pakistan.”

HAITI? Obama is at war with Haiti?

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 10:22 pm
Ignoring his own insulation death toll (which included an intellectually disabled teenager), Rudd’s latest distraction:

PM likens Joyce to Sir Joh.

He’d better hope that isn’t true. Whitlam called Joh “that Bible-bashing bastard.” Joh brought down the brilliant barrister’s government.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 10:29 pm
Jason, yes my “populist” example was Stephen King for a reason. It wasn’t random. I can’t defend Dan Brown as great art simply because he’s successful.
.
what do *you* think makes great art
I think it depends on the art form… great paintings are different from great songs.

daddy dave

10 Feb 10 at 10:32 pm
#

I’m betting the the next monthly poll shows the two parties to be almsot next and neck within the margin of error and too tight to call.

The increasing incompetence, the shocking performance by Rudd last night and the other crap that happened recently will begin to takes it’s toll and people also begin to question their competence and the incessant focus group crap we hear almost every other day begins to take its toll.

My other prediction: Abboot will be around 34% popularity as people begin to fell more comfortable with him.

My outside bet is that Rudd will be gone by June and Gillard is PM with Tanner as Treasurer.

Final election result. Labor by a whisker looking very unstable.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 10:45 pm
My outside bet is that Rudd will be gone by June and Gillard is PM with Tanner as Treasurer.
No chance. That would be a huge, huge risk.
Final election result. Labor by a whisker looking very unstable.
quite likely.

daddy dave

10 Feb 10 at 10:56 pm
Dads:

I don’t think it’s a done deal, however I would have put it at almost zero in November and now put the odds at 3:1.

JC

10 Feb 10 at 10:59 pm
Adrien, I’m sure your post at Skepticlawyer’s is excellent. I wouldn’t really know – I’m not a very knowledgeable person on that particular artistic subject. You invite me to make a few remarks concerning history, which I’m happy to do.

All art throughout history has served propagandistic (less cynically, educative) functions in eras of mass illiteracy. Luther and the protestants were the same, effortlessly promoting themselves as pure even as they sold out to the highest bidders of the nobility ab initio. The Spanish Black Legend and the myth of “Bloody Mary” were masterpieces of propaganda that are still believed to this day.

With respect to the Bible, vernacular editions were produced well before the protestant reformation but were often of very poor quality – both in literary and theological terms. The Church forbad the production of them for that reason. (Not that it made much difference to readers at the time; almost everyone who could read in the vernacular could read Latin and/or Greek). Luther himself proved the wisdom of this policy; he butchered the Bible, altering phrases (famously and critically, Romans 3:28), striking out anything that didn’t fit his theology and mocking whole books he didn’t like.

Finally, you speak of the Catholic Church which “alienated so much of northern Europe during the 16th century.” Granted the crises which existed then (which rival in scope the crisis in modern Anglicanism), very few Christians of Northern Europe (or, later, of Henrician England) had the slightest desire to sunder the Church. Via the sword – and pursuant to the remorseless land grab-driven momentum implicit in cuius regio, eius religio – they were made to change.

But look, great post. It was only last week that someone was discussing culture blogging (and its sad rarity in libertarian forums) and your name came up as someone who should do more of it for a wider audience. Please do so as few people do it better. Perhaps no-one, actually, in the Australian blogosphere. Get into it.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 11:10 pm
The enpoofication of Britain continues relentlessly:

Men take longer than women to get ready.

BRITISH men spend longer getting ready to go out than women, a survey reported today, suggesting the metrosexual male has now become the norm.

The shock study of 3,000 people showed on average men dedicate 83 minutes of each day to their personal grooming, including cleansing, toning and moisturising, shaving, styling hair and choosing clothes.

C.L.

10 Feb 10 at 11:21 pm
“The enpoofication of Britain continues relentlessly”

Might be more accurate to say there’s yet another marketing campaign to “enpooficate” Britain. Blame Superdrug.

badm0f0

11 Feb 10 at 12:52 am
JC-

Are you online?

Nanuestalker

11 Feb 10 at 1:49 am
JC_
I’m in moderation so I’ll ask my question anyway…

Just turned on Fox and the they’re blowing shit about China’s hold on US debt at 6.5%.

What does that mean? Is that unusual?…and so what?

Nanuestalker

11 Feb 10 at 1:56 am
BTW Sinc, I know its been a while (one has to work now and again )…moderation on the Cat????

[New site doesn't recognise old but returning commenters. So everyone has to be approved the first time. That happened at the old Cat too. Sinc]

Nanuestalker

11 Feb 10 at 1:59 am
Recently, Professor Andy Pittman (UNSW) spat the dummy and attacked everyone is his path suggesting the skeptics were oil company whores or some such, which these days is the standard operating procedure of attack by alarmist like Pittman. I can’t recall the exact line of criticism but it went something along those lines that skeptics are only doing it for the money later suggesting that he was being so big-hearted he was doing it for free (leading to perhaps a knighthood, saint hood or both?).

One thing Pittman said when he was referred back to his website showing the money trough he’s been dipping into over the past was that he did IPPC work gratis out of the goodness of his heart. This didn’t appear to be entirely true after someone lifted out from his site one of the grants that showed he was paid $60,000 for expenses related to IPCC work.

So in effect Pittman received $60,000 in addition to still being on salary at the UNSW.

EU referendum has caught on to this Pittman caper and has this to say:

Creeping in though is the fiction that the report is compiled by thousands of scientists and other experts who “volunteer their time” with the IPCC, as if this somehow excuses the sloppy work.
Like so many things to do with the IPCC, though, this misrepresents the truth. Most of the authors and editors are on secondment from their own national bodies, retaining their salaries and having their expenses fully paid, either by their sponsoring institutions or the IPCC.

Isn’t it about fucking time the senior strata of climate science was just cleared out and started again? The sheer dishonesty and the lying going on is starting to wear thin. In fact it really should be an intolerable situation.

Getting back to Pittman. If he can’t even tell the truth about his expenses being paid for in addition to receiving his salary while doing IPCC work (without dissembling) how can anyone ever believe what the guy say about anything, especially climate science?

JC

11 Feb 10 at 2:44 am
A couple of comments from a newspaper column/blog asking people for their thoughts if Abbott can win.

YES, HE, CAN!
I have always voted Labor, but this may be one time when I don’t. Abbott is a breath of fresh air compared to Kevin Rudd who is a huge disappointment. There are policies on both sides I agree and disagree with, but Abbott’s personality will be a deciding factor for many, I think. He comes across as authentic, genuine and a bit of a larrikin. And he talks in plain English.
Max the Outsider
Blokey
Wed 10 Feb 10 (06:58pm)

I agree with MaryG. Abbott may not be a polished orator, but he does present as honest and does not give the perception that he is in it for himself. The PM, on the other hand, presents as someone out for the main chance and presents as someone who is simply there for what he can get out of it. Everything Rudd does is calculated for its election value, whereas Abbott has that larrakin image about him. It will be a close election, but I would not be putting all my money on the Labor Party.
simon

JC

11 Feb 10 at 3:51 am
LE – surely you jest. There is huge difference between being able to indicate cases where individuals are in breach of the law – something that is known to happen and the very reason we have law-enforcement agencies etc. – and the claim that businesspeople can commit industrial manslaughter at will. The mere existence of criminality does not mean that it is widespread.

Sinclair Davidson

11 Feb 10 at 8:32 am
Man, some Muslims have twisted priorities

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/menace-in-mad-marchbrof-the-thought-police/story-e6frg6zo-1225828481935

he had plenty to say about women in short skirts. He expressed his disgust at being “forced to look at the backside of a woman who bends over in front of me in supermarket to pick an item off a bottom shelf”. It is a health hazard, he says. “Non-Muslim women do not use water to clean themselves when they go to the toilet.” Thus, bending over in a supermarket could cause serious health risks, Hassan wrote, especially for little children who “because of their height, may have such [a] scene right in their face”.

jtfsoon

11 Feb 10 at 9:11 am
Speaking of cronies and conflicts of interest:

http://pajamasmedia.com/claudiarosett/un-climate-cronies/

dover_beach

11 Feb 10 at 9:17 am
JC I already put some money on an Abbott win when the betting odds were at 5 to 1. Not because I think he’s going to win, but because I think he’s got a better than 5 to 1 chance of winning.

daddy dave

11 Feb 10 at 9:35 am
Sadly, unless anything has changed very recently, this is true. There was an abortive attempt to pass corporate manslaughter laws in Victoria in 2002, and push to introduce corporate manslaughter after the Longford gas explosion.
.
this is entirely different. The fact that corporations can’t be prosecuted for manslaughter is not the same thing as claiming that “Businessmen can virtually commit manslaughter at will”.
It’s not even the same thing as claiming that corporations can commit manslaughter. In fact it’s not clear that such a concept – corporations committing manslaughter – makes any sense.

daddy dave

11 Feb 10 at 9:39 am
LE – surely you jest.

My thought exactly, Sinc. I’d also add to your point another, that if the corporation can avoid or defend the criminal charge of industrial/ corporate manslaughter, they are less likely to avoid civil proceedings for wrongful death/ negligence.

dover_beach

11 Feb 10 at 9:46 am
…forced to look at the backside of a woman who bends over in front of me in supermarket to pick an item off a bottom shelf.

Ah yes. We’ve all experienced this traumatising horror.

In other Muslimy/womany news:

Arab Ambassador Annuls Marriage to Bearded, Cross-Eyed Wife.

An Arab ambassador in Dubai has had his marriage annulled after discovering his new wife is cross-eyed and has a beard, Gulf News reported on Wednesday, citing sources close to the case.

The ambassador, who was not named, petitioned a court in the emirate for a divorce and compensation of 500,000 dirhams ($136,202) for money spend on gifts, the UAE daily reported.

The man only found out about his wife’s appearance after the couple had signed a marriage contract and the husband wanted to kiss his spouse, the newspaper said.

The woman, a Gulf national, had worn a niqab each time they had met, it added.

“Every time the couple met, the bride would do her best not to reveal her entire face,” the source was quoted as saying.

“He claimed to the sharia court officials that when he wanted to kiss his wife-to-be, he discovered that she was bearded and cross-eyed as well.”

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 12:05 pm
Stephen Conroy seems to be happy to compare his censorship regime with china.

Google says it will not willingly comply with the government’s request that it censor YouTube videos in accordance with broad “refused classification” content rules.

Communications Minister Stephen Conroy referred to Google’s censorship on behalf of the Chinese and Thai governments in making his case for the company to impose censorship locally

Steve Edney

11 Feb 10 at 12:23 pm
FMD
Mr Urea-fingers has to go

jtfsoon

11 Feb 10 at 12:26 pm
An effective “fisking” by Lubos Motl of a current Time article arguing that the most recent snowstorm on the mid-Atlantic coast of the US that has covered Washington DC with a thick blanket of snow, among other places, may be more evidence of climate change and that these events may become more common:

http://motls.blogspot.com/2010/02/global-warming-causes-snowstorm-in-dc.html

dover_beach

11 Feb 10 at 12:45 pm
Graeme’s been posting signs around the Central Coast again:

http://davemiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/time_machine.jpg

BirdLab

11 Feb 10 at 12:51 pm
don’t scoff Birdlab

If travel above light speed is feasible, time travel is just a matter of details. I’m sure Graeme has it all figured out.

jtfsoon

11 Feb 10 at 12:52 pm
Just make sure you don’t hang around any utility boxes at about 11.37 on Fridays, Jason. It may have horrid consequences.

BirdLab

11 Feb 10 at 1:10 pm
That’s not the Central Coast, Birdlab, but the bottom end of Chapel St, Windsor. I know it quite well.

dover_beach

11 Feb 10 at 1:15 pm
Thanks for that DB. The question is how did he manage to post them down there? And why is he calling himself Craig?

BirdLab

11 Feb 10 at 1:36 pm
Yes BirdLab it’s a mystery

tal

11 Feb 10 at 1:42 pm
A mystery of the ages Tal:

http://helenofdestroy.tumblr.com/post/380513042

BirdLab

11 Feb 10 at 1:49 pm
As the proposed revisions of the new edition of the psychiatrist’s bible (the DSM) are now available in great detail on line, I thought it might be of interest to those who want to do a bit of diagnosis of Mr Bird.

http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx

steve from brisbane

11 Feb 10 at 1:51 pm
They are commies you know BirdLab.

tal

11 Feb 10 at 1:53 pm
BirdLab that’s why they should be culled,they can’t even breed.

tal

11 Feb 10 at 1:56 pm
Thanks for that DB. The question is how did he manage to post them down there? And why is he calling himself Craig?

Interesting question, but if you were familiar with the area you would know that their are not a few eccentrics local to the area that would make even Bird appear shockingly conventional.

dover_beach

11 Feb 10 at 2:00 pm
This week’s Greatest Challenge Of Our Time:

Closing indigenous gap our greatest challenge, says Prime Minister.

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 2:02 pm
It looks like Rudd spins a lottery wheel every so often in order to work out what our latest “greatest [moral or] social challenge” might be.

dover_beach

11 Feb 10 at 2:09 pm
No way that’s Bird posting that. Mr bird is too busy abusing people on line to actually buid anything.

Steve Edney

11 Feb 10 at 2:10 pm
C.L. I wouldn’t object if he stuck with this as the “greatest challenge” for a while.
Trouble is, neither he nor anyone else knows what to do about it.
I would (and I never thought I’d ever say this) suffer a tax increase if I was convinced that it would genuinely reduce the gap.

ken n

11 Feb 10 at 2:14 pm
http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/special-buoyancy/#comment-27344

My Mum was there when that fashion guru was murdered. But there was a bunch more murders when she was there that didn’t get the same press.

jtfsoon

11 Feb 10 at 2:14 pm
I think he’s talking about the murder of Versarce (?) in Miami in the 90′s. They did find the his murderer, however it would be interesting if Lardulous shed more light on those other murders and if he was also there at the time.

JC

11 Feb 10 at 2:17 pm
Hope you all remember that Sunday is Valentine’s Day.Two and a half shopping days to go .Gentlemen start your credit cards

tal

11 Feb 10 at 2:34 pm
Adrien and daddy dave have a post at Blair’s!:

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/power_of_prejudice/

Infidel Tiger

11 Feb 10 at 2:37 pm
In 2007:

Investment in innovation was also important and Australia was well placed to be a global leader in energy efficient technology to fight global warming – which Mr Rudd named Australia’s second greatest challenge.

Second greatest? Hey, what was number 1?

On Wednesday, the day of Labor’s official campaign launch, candidates were told that their key message that day was “Kevin Rudd will deliver an Education Revolution to tackle the greatest challenge of the future: making sure all our young people get a first-class education.”

But wait. Moving into 2008:

“There will be absolutely no change to people having tax cuts to take as additional income,” Rudd said on the Nine television network’s ‘Sunday’ program today. He said inflation remains the government’s greatest challenge.

By 2009:

Rudd opened the community cabinet meeting at Emerald with the proposition that the single greatest challenge facing Australia is the global economic downturn.

But hang on:

ADELAIDE, April 20 AAP – Australia faces an emerging threat of huge numbers of asylum
seekers, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says.

He says the greatest challenge for Australia is how to “calibrate our response to
this emerging threat”.

Later that year:

“It is time to remove any polite veneer from this debate… The overwhelming need for Australia to tackle the great challenge of our generation is being frustrated by the do-nothing climate change sceptics”.

Today:

Closing indigenous gap our greatest challenge, says Prime Minister.

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 2:41 pm
It seems more apparent as the days wear on that in fact our “greatest challenge” is Rudd himself.

JC

11 Feb 10 at 2:47 pm
Labor MP compares Barnaby Joyce to Ivan Milat. And they’re trying to sell the idea that Barnaby is the weirdo?

Death tolls:

Joyce: 0.
Milat: 7.
Garrett: 4.

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 2:56 pm
Garrett nails the culprits: Slack workers.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/peter-garrett-blames-slack-behaviour-for-roof-insulation-installers-deaths/story-e6frg6n6-1225829115085

Labor sticking up for the working man again.

Infidel Tiger

11 Feb 10 at 3:00 pm
The Halloween mask super-model and “activist” seems to quickly realizing how difficult and executive type job actually is.

One boneheaded decision can end up killing people.

My guess is that he’ll soon retire back to Byron Bay to his “activism”, as well ensuring he maintains his position in the national treasure sweep stakes.

JC

11 Feb 10 at 3:06 pm
Oops
The Halloween mask super-model and “activist” seems to be quickly realizing how difficult an executive type job actually is.

JC

11 Feb 10 at 3:07 pm
Sample NAPLAN questions:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/02/10/first-dog-reveals-sample-naplan-questions/

I particularly like #4.

BirdLab

11 Feb 10 at 3:11 pm
Very funny. Perhaps the Americans ought to incorporate a version of that in their SAT’s.

I’d go with 3 in the 4th question

JC

11 Feb 10 at 3:15 pm
WTF:

My Way, Frank Sinatra – not on The Punch editor David Penberthy’s list but generally considered the most popular track in some Asian countries. Unfortunately also often a catalyst for deadly karaoke-rage incidents, which have killed at least a dozen singers in The Philipppines in the past decade.

Dudes, calm down. It’s only a song.

JC

11 Feb 10 at 3:25 pm
what a weird story.

One of Canada’s top soldiers could be a serial killer

http://www.smh.com.au/world/top-canadian-commander-charged-with-two-murders-20100211-ntoo.html

jtfsoon

11 Feb 10 at 3:27 pm
JC karaoke in Asia is a religion, folks fight over mic time

tal

11 Feb 10 at 3:27 pm
Adrien and daddy dave have a post at Blair’s!:
.
I’m famous! woo hoo!

daddy dave

11 Feb 10 at 3:29 pm
Don’t forget daddy we knew you before you hit the big time

tal

11 Feb 10 at 3:32 pm
well I was attacked in the same blogpost as Tim Blair so there

http://rumcorps.net/mangledthoughts/2008/04/01/tim-blair-on-dimmed-light-bulbs-cis-ipa-jason-soon-keep-on-clowning-around/

jtfsoon

11 Feb 10 at 3:34 pm
Marxism! Let’s give it one more try!

http://marxism2010.com/

“I’d go with 3 in the 4th question”

Oh, I completely agree.

BirdLab

11 Feb 10 at 3:39 pm
“Mangled thoughts.” an appropriately named blog.

daddy dave

11 Feb 10 at 3:39 pm
Wow. That Canadian wacko used to be his country’s top VIP pilot, “having flown Canada’s Governor-General and prime minister, as well as the British royal family on a visit.”

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 3:40 pm
Well that’s nice Jason

tal

11 Feb 10 at 3:40 pm
Are you attending BirdLab?

tal

11 Feb 10 at 3:42 pm
who would pass up sessions such as these Birdlab?

http://marxism2010.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=60

jtfsoon

11 Feb 10 at 3:48 pm
CL sez:

Gitmo is in fact one of the world’s best-run supermax prisons

Factually but hilariously incorrect on multiple grounds. You don’t know what you are talking about. This is nearly as silly as when you denied the ancient concept of the illegal statute.

1. Gitmo is not “supermax”. “Supermax” is a term of art: it’s not merely a name for any very secure prison. “Supermax” facilities are also known as “control units”, “administrative maximum” or “level 6″ (as graded by the Federal Bureau of Prisons).

While many state and federal prisons in the US have control units, there is only one dedicated federal supermax prison in the US, ADX Florence in Colorado.

Part (but only part) of Gitmo may actually be equivalent to “supermax” – the secret Camp 7. But that may not actually be supermax in the traditional sense, in that it may not have control unit features.

Most of Gitmo, CL, is much much less than supermax. In fact, a lot of it is equivalent to about medium security, with prisoners housed in dormitories. David Hicks did not spend any time, AFAIK, under supermax conditions.

2. There have been multiple suicides at Gitmo. To allow a detainee to kill himself is a massive failing. You say that Gitmo is better run that Aussie supermax facilities (which would include facilities such as the Acacia Unit at Barwon).

So please tell us when there has been a suicide in an Australian supermax unit.

Tillman

11 Feb 10 at 4:07 pm
All pretty riveting stuff Jason, but they need to add some meat to the bones. I would suggest sessions on:

- Pandas and the Patriarchy
- Battling Pink Robots and the Revolution
- Collingwood: Who Will Rid us of This Scourge?

“Are you attending BirdLab?”

Only if there will be kittens.

BirdLab

11 Feb 10 at 4:47 pm
Lab drowns kittens?

JC

11 Feb 10 at 4:51 pm
Rule Brittania. WTF has happened to that toilet of a country?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249423/Former-council-chief-84-arrested-assault-waving-walking-stick-unruly-yobs.html?ITO=1490

Infidel Tiger

11 Feb 10 at 4:52 pm
It’s over the easter weekend BirdLad I hope you go to mass first

tal

11 Feb 10 at 4:52 pm
Does Crikey think this is a good header?

“Unemployment falls as stimulus is withdrawn”

x-msg://505/#article_1470

JC

11 Feb 10 at 4:53 pm
Probably eats ‘em JC he’s a sick puppy

tal

11 Feb 10 at 4:53 pm
Tiger, I’ve said it many times over the past few years and no exaggeration was intended – Britain is now a police state.

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 4:56 pm
Australian is following the UK down the commode

tal

11 Feb 10 at 5:00 pm
“Probably eats ‘em JC he’s a sick puppy”

Tal and JC, I am shocked that you would consider that I could do such things.

BirdLab

11 Feb 10 at 5:06 pm
C.L. – You’ll like this. Harry Huttons’s take on modern Britain: (salty language warning)

http://chasemeladies.blogspot.com/2009/12/stop-picking-on-stasi.html

Infidel Tiger

11 Feb 10 at 5:06 pm
Here’s another of Harry’s pieces.

Sweet revenge on the fun police:

http://chasemeladies.blogspot.com/2009/11/little-victories.html

Infidel Tiger

11 Feb 10 at 5:09 pm
Britain is now a police state.
I wonder how much the conservatives will be able to reverse the trend if/when they get into power ( as seems likely).

daddy dave

11 Feb 10 at 5:10 pm
As long as drowning and eating them is all you do BirdLab

tal

11 Feb 10 at 5:11 pm
David Cameron is Malcolm Turnbull, but without the redeeming features. Britain’s future is grim.

Infidel Tiger

11 Feb 10 at 5:12 pm
HAHAHAHAHA! Good old Harry.

I doubt the Cameronites will be much better, Dave, sadly.

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 5:13 pm
Lectures from John Pilger?

I much prefer this fractured modern take on Communism:

http://www.communistvampires.com/story.htm

Semi Regular Libertarian

11 Feb 10 at 5:47 pm
http://www.communistvampires.com/ceausescu.htm

Semi Regular Libertarian

11 Feb 10 at 5:48 pm
Sinclair – Adrien – those birds in those paintings are fully clothed.
.
I think Judith got into the tent ’cause Holofernes was mighty curious to see her without her clothes on. D’oh!
.
How do you think Judith got into Holofernes tent? These biblical stories tend to have a bit of sex to offset the violence. Just asking.
.
If it’s sex ye be wantin’ ye need look at the pagan painters. Bonaparte’s propogandist and some other 19th century Frog.
.
Sorry not writin’ ’bout ‘em. The next bit out will feature a little nudity. PGR sorry.

Adrien

11 Feb 10 at 6:06 pm
Sinclair – Adrien – those birds in those paintings are fully clothed.
.
I think Judith got into the tent ’cause Holofernes was mighty curious to see her without her clothes on. D’oh!
.
How do you think Judith got into Holofernes tent? These biblical stories tend to have a bit of sex to offset the violence. Just asking.
.
If it’s sex ye be wantin’ ye need look at the pagan painters. Bonaparte’s propagandist and some other 19th century Frog.
.
Sorry not writin’ ’bout ‘em. The next bit out will feature a little nudity. PGR sorry.

Adrien

11 Feb 10 at 6:07 pm
Jason – If Shakespeare were alive today he’d be more likely to be writing for HBO
.
And Fox.
.
Sorry about the dual comment. The first had stuffed HTML and I stopped it, too late.

Adrien

11 Feb 10 at 6:08 pm
Adrien she has tiny boobs,that’s child porn

tal

11 Feb 10 at 6:09 pm
I don’t normally care what stupid things celebrities on the edge of my field of interest may say in an interview, but John Mayer gives a truly spectacular example of why no one should drink before giving one. (If that really is his excuse for coming over as unbelievably crass & shallow.) This post (via Hotair) gives lots of extracts from the interview, and some funny commentary :

http://www.mediaite.com/online/john-mayers-penis-is-a-racist-wonderland/

steve from brisbane

11 Feb 10 at 6:23 pm
as the first comment underneath that piece goes ‘who is John Mayer?’

jtfsoon

11 Feb 10 at 6:26 pm
Oh Steve what a charming little fellow

tal

11 Feb 10 at 6:29 pm
Hey Jason are you celebrating CNY this weekend?

tal

11 Feb 10 at 6:30 pm
Well Jason, I’ll take that as proof that I must be about 0.002% “hipper” than you.

steve from brisbane

11 Feb 10 at 6:45 pm
Jason he is a great blues guitarist

tal

11 Feb 10 at 6:48 pm
More on GISS adjustments in Austrlia: this time, Mackay:

http://kenskingdom.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/giss-manipulates-climate-data-in-mackay/

dover_beach

11 Feb 10 at 7:23 pm
Adrien she has tiny boobs,that’s child porn
.
In France zis eez normal behaviour.

Adrien

11 Feb 10 at 7:38 pm
Tal, are you sure you’re not thinking of John Mayall? He IS a great bluesman. But John Mayer – I’ve never heard of him.

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 8:57 pm
Cl no I’m thinking of John Mayer, his blues stuff is great,the pop stuff is shite

tal

11 Feb 10 at 9:30 pm
You’re more hip than me, Tal.

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 9:39 pm
You’re so cute when you blush CL

tal

11 Feb 10 at 9:55 pm
Tal, check out this cutey.

I hope he grows up to be a good, militant Christian Elephant.

C.L.

11 Feb 10 at 10:00 pm
The funniest scientologist ever:

Professor Andy Pitman, co-director of the UNSW Climate Change Research Centre, disagreed. The “IPCC is the most rigorous program of assessing the state of (the) science. It’s as near perfect as such a process can be”.

Remind me to be,ieve him next time he says somehting about climate science.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 12:58 am
He is cute CL do you think he is Catholic?

tal

12 Feb 10 at 1:11 am
Oh yeah.

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 1:40 am
Bin Laden ‘the kindest’ says his son

http://www.smh.com.au/world/people-around-my-father-are-much-much-worse-says-bin-ladens-son-20100212-nvih.html

Osama bin Laden’s son has warned that if his father were killed the al-Qaeda leaders who succeed him are likely to be far worse, ABC News reported on Thursday.

“From what I knew of my father and the people around him I believe he is the most kind among them, because some are much, much worse,” Omar bin Laden said in an interview with ABC News …

But Omar, who wrote a book about his experiences called Growing Up Bin Laden, said he and his brothers broke with their father when he encouraged them to become suicide bombers.

If a father who tells his sons to become suicide bombers is ‘not that bad’ I’d hate to find out how much worse the others are

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 10:13 am
Professor Andy Pitman, co-director of the UNSW Climate Change Research Centre, disagreed. The “IPCC is the most rigorous program of assessing the state of (the) science. It’s as near perfect as such a process can be”.

Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he. The facts, however, paint a different picture:

Given this background, and the egregious nature of the inclusion of the Agoumi reference – from a man who has no track-record in climate impact estimates – and the exclusion of key references from leaders in the field[Parry and Hulme], it is difficult to the point of impossible to believe these events are accidental.

Otherwise, we are being asked to believe that a world leader [Parry, co-chair of WGII] in this specialist field fails to notice a reference to an unknown author[Agoumi] offering estimates which contradict and take the place of his own research, produced specifically for the report. This is beyond the bounds of credibility. The substitution has to be deliberate.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2010/02/wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.html

Pittman may think that ‘circling the wagons’ is an effective defence but he fails to realise that the Indians are now within the circle and scalping those he’s seeking to defend.

dover_beach

12 Feb 10 at 10:27 am
Union boss threateing to sue Rudd for defamation

http://www.vexnews.com/news/8180/defo-biffo-union-boss-dean-mighell-threatens-to-sue-prime-minister-rudd-for-saying-mean-things-about-him/

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 10:29 am
On other news:

Within hours of the launch of an independent panel to investigate claims that climate scientists covered up flawed data on temperature rises, one member has been forced to resign after sceptics questioned his impartiality.

The reporter imagined that this was evidence of a “well-organised and highly-motivated campaign by climate change sceptics”.

He obviously thinks that a member of a independent panel that has previously expressed that those being investigated are innocent would not prejudice the hearings:

“The scientists have not hidden the data. If you look at the emails there is one or two bits of language that are jargon used between professionals that suggest something to outsiders that is wrong.”

He went on: “In fact the only problem there has been is on some official restrictions on their ability to disseminate data otherwise they have behaved as researchers should.”

In other words, he bought the defence of the accused, hook, line and sinker; of course he had to resign, anything less would have been a travesty.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/aposclimategateapos+review+member+resigns/3536642

dover_beach

12 Feb 10 at 10:38 am
Oops. First quote ends after first paragraph.

dover_beach

12 Feb 10 at 10:39 am
You know things are bad when Al Gore has gone AWOL

tal

12 Feb 10 at 11:01 am
Bill Clinton is a hospital again, boy can’t keep away from fried food

tal

12 Feb 10 at 11:08 am
Never knew this about Asian history:

http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/lanfang.htm

Semi Regular Libertarian

12 Feb 10 at 11:13 am
well that’s news to me too, SRL.

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 11:17 am
that sounds almost like an example of Paul Romer’s charter cities idea

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 11:19 am
Joe Biden claims victory in Iraq for the Obama administration.

I am very optimistic about — about Iraq. I mean, this could be one of the great achievements of this administration. You’re going to see 90,000 American troops come marching home by the end of the summer.

You’re going to see a stable government in Iraq that is actually moving toward a representative government… It’s impressed me. I’ve been impressed how they have been deciding to use the political process rather than guns to settle their differences.

Almost beyond belief.

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 12:17 pm
I’ve been impressed how they have been deciding to use the political process rather than guns to settle their differences.

Frankly I’m shocked to Joe. Never happened before.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 12:19 pm
The”Lord and the dwarf” debate must be in full swing by now as I think it was supposed to start at 12.

I pity those poor people sitting in, as they don’t know shiny like we do.

Can you imagine sitting in to 2 hours of rampant Lambert’s lying and distortions. Their heads will be spinning by the end. They’ll never be the same.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 12:23 pm
You know things are bad when Al Gore has gone AWOL
.
He hasn’t. The local KFC has an all-you-can-eat buffet special until the end of the month. Then he’s going on holday to the beach.

Adrien

12 Feb 10 at 12:24 pm
Don’t worrry JC the paramedics are on stand by

tal

12 Feb 10 at 12:24 pm
Don’t let him near the beach he has already eaten a species of sea bass

tal

12 Feb 10 at 12:26 pm
Tal:

His lying and dishonesty could end causing the majority of people ending up in hospital.

This isn’t right. It’s just not right. No one should have to go through 2 hours of Lambert’s lying and dissembling.

If I were the organizer and had a sense of humor I’d have an average size podium so he couldn’t see over it.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 12:32 pm
I’d play the opening music from Fantasty Island

tal

12 Feb 10 at 12:34 pm
Bomber Beazley has slipped over on the ice in Washington. Will require keyhold surgery on both knees. yet another victim of global warming.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/12/2817433.htm

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 12:36 pm
Keyhole.

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 12:36 pm
Hey y’all: you can watch a live stream of the Lambert/Monckton debate right now if you want, via the SMH site. Sorry I don’t have time to listen right now, but I can see Lambert is in the middle of his talk.

I can tell he’s winning, because his eyes look less crazy.

steve from brisbane

12 Feb 10 at 12:54 pm
it’s here

http://media.smh.com.au/monckton-challenged-live-debate-1105706.html?%3Fautostart%3D1&sy=smh&source=smh.com.au%2F

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 12:56 pm
Can anyone hear Bird shouting in the background? (I can’t turn on the volume where I am now.)

steve from brisbane

12 Feb 10 at 12:58 pm
Why’s Lambert armed with a lap top? Is he updating his Facebook status?

Infidel Tiger

12 Feb 10 at 1:09 pm
Lambert has a laptop safety blanky?

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 1:32 pm
I have only watched it with the sound off for brief periods where I am but there was a long and torturous interval there where he was blocking off part of Alan Jones as he spent almost 5 minutes trying to pour himself a glass of water

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 1:36 pm
I shouldn’t be so nasty. He has had the guts to debate Monckton with Jones as moderator.

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 1:37 pm
Shiny shuffles around instead of walking.

He seems to know a lot about this shit. No wonder he’s too busy to write anything about IT of the pat decade.

Monckton seem to know a lot about too though.

Monckton mentions the cambrian era obviously reminding Shiny of me and almsot dropped his glass of water.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 1:37 pm
The people are off their heads for the most part.. Some of the questions/statements are extra-ordinary.

Shiny now lies about the weather station data.

Jason’s right though Shiny did have the balls to attend the debate.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 1:41 pm
Full credit to Lambert for doing this. It’s a very genial debate. But next time undo a button or two on your jacket and do your tie up.

Lambert has probably drunk 9-10 litres of water. He’ll need intermission soon.

Audience has the usual array of crack pots who ask questions of such length that they have their own seasons.

Infidel Tiger

12 Feb 10 at 1:43 pm
Full credit… to shiny.. However I think he also judged the previous debates and saw the caliber of the loons attending so he thought he’d be ok. He’s not exactly in front of a crowd of Phd’s, Tiger. This is the Jones audience we’re talking about here. Homer/debbie could look reasonable.

Yea… he’s pouring down the water like he’s at the bottom of Niagara. I’d be heading for exist doors as the room could be flooded any second.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 1:48 pm
Lambert. Undo you jacket buttons when sitting down, you oaf. Gentleman always undo their buttons when seated and then quickly do them up when standing. Learn some etiquette

JC

12 Feb 10 at 1:57 pm
I think Bird has declared a time out. or something. he’s become increasingly uncomprehensible

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/blog-time-out/

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 2:07 pm
Shiny just lied…. He avoided the question about Paul Erlrich.

He’s written supportive comments about Erlrich numerous times and one time even deliberately omitted a comment by Erlrich that was damaging to him.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 2:09 pm
That’s some real gibberish from Bird. The ‘time out’ might coincide with an inpatient admission somewhere that doesn’t allow internet usage.

THR

12 Feb 10 at 2:10 pm
Lambert just supported industry policy to develop alternative energy sources, so we don’t import technology.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 2:13 pm
Monckton just slapped Shiny over the head about industry policy.

Shiny needs to stay away from economic as he’s always been terrible at it.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 2:13 pm
Oh my god, I just saw it Jason. It’s word vomit.

I think THR’s right. He’s finally been hauled-off. Alas, I think it may be too late.

BirdLab

12 Feb 10 at 2:18 pm
Bird as unintentional comedy:

“BILL CLINTON WAS AN ABSOLUTELY SENSATIONAL SAXOPHONE PLAYER. ”

Bird has a moment of agreeable lucidity:

“(((((THE WORLD TODAY WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER HAD GARY HART BECOME PRESIDENT. SO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW DEAD WOULD STILL BE WITH US. DON’T THINK WE’VE FORGOTTEN YOU GARY)))))”

Bird’s illucidity continues:

“LITTLE-BILL BECOMES A MUTE JEDI-KNIGHT.

Population continues to grow despite Bird’s concerns:

“These now-thirty somethings: hopeless with women generally speaking. Yet paradoxically surrounded by an unending sea of blowjobartists. Incredible stuff. All the kids Larn and Lovn in resonance with that banjo-playing mute.”

I think there’s something in this for all of us:

“NO MATTER HOW MANY PARALLEL UNIVERSES THERE ARE ALWAYS SOME THINGS YOU CAN RELY ON.”

Bird admits idiocy:

“I don’t know what the moral of this story is. Clinton is a traitor. Probably a rapist. He treats women he’s been with abominably. And I still like him. HE HAS SPECIAL POWERS!!!!! Thats really the end of this story.”

Semi Regular Libertarian

12 Feb 10 at 2:19 pm
How’s your blood pressure JC?

tal

12 Feb 10 at 2:29 pm
Can somebody please provide a diagnosis?

BirdLab

12 Feb 10 at 2:30 pm
Sounds like he has a lot on his plate BirdLab, a nice little rest and he’ll be back

tal

12 Feb 10 at 2:33 pm
“Barmy Batshit Bulshitartist” says:

““Has id Garret responsible in this?””

More gold from the ALP suckholes/brains trust.

Actually there are quite smart people in the ALP. I have friends who joined the darkside due to family connections. They are probably completely unaware that the knee padded BB&B once crawled through the corridors of power, giving unwanted, incoherent advice.

Semi Regular Libertarian

12 Feb 10 at 2:34 pm
Shiny just shot himself in the foot.

He said that we shouldn’t read anything about climate change in the media as the reporters tend to report exaggerated crap and the audience clapped catching shines by surprise.

Monckton’s really a very impressive debater. It’s the first time I’ve seen him.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 2:36 pm
He also neglected to mention that 90% of his shitty blog is directed to trying to kick sceptical reporter’s heads while never doing the same with the other side.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 2:40 pm
Actually I got to hand it to Lambert for showing up. He manned-up for a change and put up a reasonably impressive performance. Good from him.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 2:51 pm
Roger the friwendless penguin:

http://mabelmoments.tumblr.com/post/381721806/ive-posted-this-before-and-im-posting-it-again#disqus_thread

BirdLab

12 Feb 10 at 2:55 pm
Where do you find this stuff BirdLab?

tal

12 Feb 10 at 2:59 pm
Tumblr. That site’s actually run by a very nice woman.

BirdLab

12 Feb 10 at 3:10 pm
Patrick Kennedy gets out while the going’s good, will not seek re-election.

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 3:38 pm
May nakakita ba sa maestra tal ngayon kagandahang umaga?

The Clinton biography makes perfect sense if you read it out loud like Bill still reads.

THERE you are tal!!!!

Why are you even talking to these dropkicks (CL excepted of course).

You ought to be talking to me off-air. Where is the love?

Mill

12 Feb 10 at 3:47 pm
I’d venture a guess ‘Mill’ is Birdy. shit, how did that one get through the filtering system?

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 3:54 pm
how did that one get through the filtering system?

He’s finally entered the Matrix.

THR

12 Feb 10 at 4:05 pm
Obviously a librarian is being held hostage whilst he posts.

Infidel Tiger

12 Feb 10 at 4:07 pm
From NY Times article:

Evidence why NYTimes is going bankrupt part 1

Women on gender-imbalanced campuses are paying a social price for success and, to a degree, are being victimized by men precisely because they have outperformed them, Professor Campbell said. In this way, some colleges mirror retirement communities, where women often find that the reward for outliving their husbands is competing with other widows for the attentions of the few surviving bachelors.

Jayne Dallas, a senior studying advertising who was seated across the table, grumbled that the population of male undergraduates was even smaller when you looked at it as a dating pool. “Out of that 40 percent [of men on campus], there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent,” she said.

So they suggest that men are spiting women for college out-performance and then quote a female advertising major who thinks 20% is 50% of 40% thereby confusing %’s with whole numbers. And they need to get circulation up.

God help the poor long suffering shareholders.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=1&hpw

JC

12 Feb 10 at 4:17 pm
“The Clinton biography makes perfect sense…”

Only in the Birdiverse.

BirdLab

12 Feb 10 at 4:23 pm
how embarrassing

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/people/big-fat-wideboy-liar-never-slept-with-me-brigitte-bardot-20100212-nwwe.html?autostart=1

Patrick Balkany, the controversial and flamboyant mayor-MP of a Paris suburb in Mr Sarkozy’s long-time fiefdom, has infuriated Miss Bardot, 75, by making the claim in his autobiography released last month. He has repeated it on radio and television in recent days.

“I must have been 18. She was a star hounded by the paparazzi. We had gone together to a soiree in Deauville [a chic Normandy seaside town]. I was proud to have her on my arm,” he writes. “‘Listen’, she whispered in her inimitable voice, ‘I can’t sleep [with someone] if I’m not in love’. Oh well, I thought. Ten minutes later, she added, in a breath: ‘But you know, I can fall in love three times a day’.”

But the famously caustic Bardot categorically denied the liaison. “I know with whom I have slept and it certainly was not with this fat wide-boy liar, an unusually inelegant cad,” she wrote in a statement to the press.

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 4:31 pm
JC,

Regular crap from neurotic singles. Everyone is fighting for the .00x % of available and desireable partners.

Buy a vibrator and shut up!

Semi Regular Libertarian

12 Feb 10 at 4:32 pm
only if the patriarchy pays for it

tal

12 Feb 10 at 4:41 pm
From SCIENCE, Volume 327, Issue 5967:

A speleothem that has been intermittently submerged in a cave on the island of Mallorca was dated to show that, historically, sea level was more than a meter above its present height. This data implies that temperatures were as high as or higher than now, even though the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere was much lower.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/11/new-paper-in-science-sea-level-81000-years-ago-1-meter-higher-while-co2-was-lower/

dover_beach

12 Feb 10 at 4:41 pm
JC: Maybe they should swallow their pride and go slumming for men without college degrees. It may not be likely, but they may find a man who is a cop, firefighter, builder, etc, but they may be forced to shack up with some unemployed yokel. There may also be men out there without a trade or degree who have a good income, looks and a decent personality. But we know this is highly unlikely and that 30% of college grads will invariably shack up with Olaf the Swamp Ogre. Retirement villages are full of old couples where the Mrs is a educated lady and her husband is a greyed swamp monster who never had a job.

Semi Regular Libertarian

12 Feb 10 at 4:46 pm
SRL
dude, it’s just talk and secondly that person is an ‘advertising major’ and therefore we’re not talking about Marie Curie levels of intelligence or depth

jtfsoon

12 Feb 10 at 4:52 pm
Speaking of vibrators:

Recycling your sex toys is just one way you can combine your passion in the bedroom with your love for the environment…

Read on at Andrew Bolt’s:

Save the planet! Pass on your vibrator to a stranger.

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 4:59 pm
Maybe they should swallow their pride and go slumming for men without college degrees. It may not be likely, but they may find a man who is a cop, firefighter, builder, etc, but they may be forced to shack up with some unemployed yokel

Don’t get me started… Lol.
They won’t. Women rarely marry or have long term relationships below their own perceived class/income level, so there’s either going to be lots of lonely gals out there or the top earning males are going to run harems.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 5:01 pm
Women rarely marry or have long term relationships below their own perceived class/income level

I don’t know about that jc. I know a few profesisonal women with partners who don’t have a degree.

THR

12 Feb 10 at 5:04 pm
Really, THR?

Perhaps you may know the few that are. Are they making a statement? Lol.

I don’t think 100% the case but it would be significant.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 5:10 pm
Oops Meant this
“….20 is 50% of 40% thereby confusing %’s with whole numbers.”

JC

12 Feb 10 at 5:14 pm
Shock! Horror! They don’t have a degree!

Considering that most degrees have been debased to the point of worthlessness this doesn’t surprise. Then when you take into account that a huge number of blue collar workers in this country are making more than white collar workers, it’s no surprise.

The smart girls should be marrying tradies.

Infidel Tiger

12 Feb 10 at 5:19 pm
Perhaps you may know the few that are. Are they making a statement? Lol.

It probably makes it easier to rule the roost at home if you’re substantially more educated than your partner.

THR

12 Feb 10 at 5:20 pm
Larvatus Rodeo gives the Lambert/Monckton debate a positive review:

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/02/12/i-went-to-a-circus-and-a-science-debate-broke-out/

Feel all the Lambert love, JC?

steve from brisbane

12 Feb 10 at 5:25 pm
Steve from B, if only the debate had been conducted with such civility for the last 10 years.

dover_beach

12 Feb 10 at 5:34 pm
Steve:

I actually think Shines did a pretty decent job of the debate. He appeared engaging and responsive and at times carrying the audience with his comments. He appeared to do a decent job to be honest. So I’m being fair here.

He also looked like he was enjoying himself.

I’d give him two pointers though.

1. Undo his buttons on a jacket when sitting down as that is what gentlemen do otherwise he looks like an ill-mannered oaf, especially in front of his Lord.

2. Don’t drink so much freaking water that in case you can’t hold it back, you end up flooding the room causing water levels to rise.

Having said that, I have never seen Monckers in a debate and I really thought he carried it well. Without going into the broad science of it i would give the debate to Monckers as he was just a better debater.

There were a couple of times Shiny -being who is (lazy sloth)- couldn’t be bothered with the questions from Jones audience who we have to admit, those they’re pretty unique bunch. While Lambert said he couldn’t understand the question, monckers got up, thanked the questioner and proceeded to answer what he thought was being asked. That’s a very good tactic. I thought Shines shouldn’t have been so aloof as those sorts of things are important to the audience.

I thought Shiny took a real hit when he said people shouldn’t believe what they read in the papers and that reporters get science wrong for the most part. The audience’s response was to laugh and agree with Shines, which wasn’t perversely what he really was driving at. Hint, don’t trip on your own rake.

Look I thought they really both carried it well.

On points I think monckers carried more of a moral argument that resonated with the people when he suggested that we can’t make policy that fucks poor people around the world as a result of raising the price of energy.

To be really honest Steve, the differences on the science isn’t that huge between Monckers and Shines if we go by the arguments put forward in the debate.

Both agree there is human induced warming while the degree is the issue in question.

One thing to come out of it was that Lambert should stay the hell away from economics as he doesn’t understand shit about that area. At one stage Shines was agreeing with an audience loon that we should develop our own tech rather than import it, which in effect meant he was throwing 200 years of accepted economics out the window by essentially denying the very existence of comparative advantage.

I’ve told Lambert in the past that he ought to spend some time going to economics lectures to learn the subject and he was actually affronted by my suggestion. He should have listened to me of course.

Mostly what I learned…… Monckers wasn’t an idiot that Shines thought he was and Shines seems to really understand the subject of AGW and is a decent and engaging debater.

He ought to be a little more like he appeared in the debate than the horror story he presents at his blog.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 5:51 pm
This is insane. Bird is right, Goldman Sachs and Soros are looting the Treasury:

http://www.thinkbigworksmall.com/mypage/player/tbws/23088/1287086

Infidel Tiger

12 Feb 10 at 5:58 pm
…if only the debate had been conducted with such civility for the last 10 years.

And Lambert and his lying ilk are the chief reasons why it wasn’t so conducted. Lord Monckton has essentially schooled the now routed warmenists not only in science but in the academic etiquette.

His visit has been a triumph.

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 6:03 pm
I agree with CL. The incivility has nearly always been on the warming side. Those jerks over at LP are turning history on its face to suggest otherwise.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 6:07 pm
LP: where Noel Pearson was denounced as a “coconut.”

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 6:11 pm
“The incivility has nearly always been on the warming side.”

JC, to say that must mean you’ve never spent much time reading the comments on a “skeptic” site like (the now defunct) Jennifer Marohasy’s. And you are also giving no credit to the degree of annoyance that must surely come with having to repeat and repeat and repeat why certain skeptic arguments are wrong ad infinitum.

Anyway, full marks for being able to overcome your normal splenetic reaction to the mere mention of Mr Lambert.

steve from brisbane

12 Feb 10 at 6:27 pm
Lambert is being treated better because he abandoned his customary modus operandi of abuse and engaged with a critic of the now demolished “consensus.” It’s to be hoped he learns from the experience.

Funny that the man dismissed with warmenist ad hom attacks a few weeks ago – Lord Monckton – is now running the discussion. Oh how the warmies have fallen.

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 6:38 pm
The incivility has nearly always been on the warming side.

Yes, Chairman Bird always welcomed debate with Greenies and AGW advocates with affable good humour. And Bolt and co never once accused AGW proponents of being fascist/having mental illness.

THR

12 Feb 10 at 6:40 pm
JC, to say that must mean you’ve never spent much time reading the comments on a “skeptic” site like (the now defunct) Jennifer Marohasy’s.

No, I didn’t really especially after I noticed Bird hogging entire threads and I gave up.

And you are also giving no credit to the degree of annoyance that must surely come with having to repeat and repeat and repeat why certain sceptic arguments are wrong ad infinitum.

Not really, as I don’t really care if people don’t agree with me. CL is a sceptic and so are people like Dover. However and while we may not agree with things I don’t really care, as I’m not a religious cultist.

I think the solution to the real serious long-term warming problem is essentially an engineering one and you would carry every sceptic if we were able to produce abundant energy at a cheaper cost to coal, which I think I quite achievable. We’re not that far from achieving that with nuke by the way.

Anyway, full marks for being able to overcome your normal splenetic reaction to the mere mention of Mr Lambert.

Steve, you misunderstand me. I try to be totally fair in assessments like this, however I won’t ever suffer fools, bullshit and leftie crap.

I also think sceptics provide real value to science as they keep people on their toes. I deplore people like Phil Jones and Doc Pach as i think they’re dishonest and need to get the fuck out of our lives.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 6:43 pm
Jennifer Marohasy was far from defunct last time I looked.
And she seems to me to be quite civil and reasoned.
Much more so than for example JQ.

To repeat: I accept the apparent science consensus but I wish its supporters did not go over the top so much and so often. It does weaken their case, which I think the Australian electorate has picked up.

ken n

12 Feb 10 at 6:44 pm
ThR;

Please tell me which side of anything Chairman Bird is on? Pol Potty Bird would mass execute every libertarian he could get his hands on given the chance yet lardulous calls himself a libertarian.

It’s really unfair you should him up and then bash us across the head with Bird. It’s so, so unfair.

In fact he’s yours. You can have him.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 6:46 pm
Ken

Unless you think there is no chance of global warming having a detrimental impact on climate I don’t see how you can say its supporters are over the top. I would say believers rather than supporters, it’s not a footy team.

Since I’m not a climate scientist I reckon I’ll stick with the majority of climate scientists. Let’s face it the greenhouse effect is something we learnt in high school. Considering we are creating CO2 and other greenhouse gases I don’t think the theory is much of a stretch.

I live in Perth, our rainfall has fallen dramatically over the last 35 years to a point where a year anywhere near the long term average seems wet.

I don’t know if this the result of global warming but it is this sort of thing that concerns me.

sdfc

12 Feb 10 at 7:13 pm
“…giving them exactly what they expect, every time, without fail.”

These blokes are amongst the most savvy businessmen in Australian history.

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 7:14 pm
SDFC:

AGW means more precipitation, not less, so your concerns that the city built in the middle of a fucking desert could perhaps run out of water is misplaced if you’re concerned with AGW.

Whereas the massive snowfalls in the US and Europe are actually a signal of AGW.

The supporters have of course been over the top and totally objectionable going beyond any reasonable level of civil discourse.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 7:17 pm
Lastly SDFC. “Teh left” has been on the wrong side of science and how people organize their lives for the past 250 years since the advent of the industrial revolution. Rather than being all for science now they still exhibit anti-science beliefs by thinking that nuclear power is so dangerous it ought to be banned and we can live with wind generated power.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 7:24 pm
The incredible thing about AC/DC is that unlike The Stones or The Who, who have become tribute acts to theire past selves, AC/DC are still making hit albums. Their current album is closing in on 10 million in sales – Incredible!

This is one of the best clips ever. Brian Johnson on Top Gear. He drives that car like he’s on a highway to hell. My favourite bit though is him explaining what he pops down the the shops in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6np_yjHoL0

Infidel Tiger

12 Feb 10 at 7:29 pm
JC

City in the middle of a desert? Perth was built on a swap near a river running through forest. You can say that Perth has expanded into incorporate more arid areas but this is irrelevant to the reduction in rainfall.

GW doesn’t cause increased precipitation everywhere. Some places will dry, you obviously don’t see this as a problem. Why not? Well that’s for you to sort out with yourself.

sdfc

12 Feb 10 at 7:37 pm
SDFC.

Niche modeling, a site run by a statistician destroyed the CSIRO scare campaign when they peddled the story that southern Australia was drying up due to AGW.

It’s not most likely. He showed that on the available data the conclusion the schleps at the CSIRO should have come with was that Australian rainfall runs in 30/40 year cycles.

They were taken out on stretcher.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 7:53 pm
I haven’t read that CSIRO report but I would like to because to be honest I’m scptical they even mentioned the southwest, because at the end of the day we’re too far away to matter. That’s why I am horrified at the prospect of a federal takeover of state health. But that’s another story.

As far as I know the best explanation for Perth’s lower rainfall is a tightening of the polar vortex, so all those cold fronts we used to get now pass to the south. I have not heard of an explanation for this.

Why would you care anyway, you’re a fucking Vic aren’t you?

sdfc

12 Feb 10 at 8:07 pm
ken: There has always been exaggeration on both sides. Lambert’s point is quite true: bad journalism let many dubious AGW claims go through without challenge, and now that skeptics are having some wins (finding some clear errors in some IPCC papers) poor journalism is helping exaggerate the importance of those errors. (By the way, I find it curious why skeptics, those great hard working debunkers, aren’t just a little embarrassed that it took them so long to get onto the glacier mistake.)

My complaint is that most pop skepticism throws the baby out with the bathwater. It celebrates every error or catfight between scientists and uses them to argue that the entire enterprise is flawed. Whereas, if they were more sensible, they would realise that something like the issue of whether the Himalayan glaciers take 30 or 300 years to melt will not be a big issue if temperatures have increased (say) 4 degree in 150 years. Some people hate this being raised, but this scattergun approach to skepticism, typical of the likes of Marohasy (who would publish absolutely any theory of an amateur wannbe climatologist as long as it was against warming) is very reminiscent of the tobacco lobby tactics. It is not about being interested in science, risk assessment and reasonable precautions; it is just about point scoring and trying to find any reason to do nothing.

On the issue of why we can’t afford to wait, this was covered in Revkin’s blog recently:

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/10/the-distracting-debate-over-climate-certainty/

Monckton tries to get around this by exaggerating the economic effects of AGW being wrong. He allows for the fact that if the temperature goes up at a certain rate, it will be evidence of higher sensitivity than he expects, and then says some action would be justified. I have not, however, heard him address the problem that waiting for the proof that he wants (at the very least) makes taking action more expensive and harder and worse for the poor at that time and (at the worst) makes taking action to limit temperatures impossible.

steve from brisbane

12 Feb 10 at 8:10 pm
Well of course I care if a major Aussie city runs out of water. We’d then have all these WA’ers moving elsewhere.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 8:10 pm
Then you should be very concerned because a fair few of us would move Melbourne for the footy.

sdfc

12 Feb 10 at 8:16 pm
Dude, You mentioned once you were in the debt markets. What debt markets are in Perth unless that city has grown a banking business most of us back east are unaware of.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 8:27 pm
So you think Perth has no corporate treasuries and no financial services industry? You really know a lot about us don’t you.

sdfc

12 Feb 10 at 8:34 pm
yes of course there are corp offices there however I never knew there was a finance industry. In any even geographic area these days means little for traders and other sorts of players.

I’m in Melbourne mostly trading US stocks and reckon I have as good a handle as most American players as these days the WSJ, Barrons end broker research is web based. You could be anywhere if you’re prepared to work the appropriate hours.

I would guess Perth is a better time fit with both Asia and Europe… The US probably not so much.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 8:41 pm
No JC it’s shit. I’ve got to work Sydney hours. With no daylight saving here there is a three hour time difference for six months of the year. 5:15 starts, they suck.

sdfc

12 Feb 10 at 8:50 pm
Yea I guess the early start is pretty bad. 5.15 starts means you’re up at 4 o’clock in the morn give or take.

That’s like California to NYC. All the Cal finance people have that sort of start. It is pretty bad.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 8:54 pm
I’m interested JC, as somneone on the other side of the fence on most issues, What do you reckon about Ken Lewis ex-Ceo of Bank of America being charged with misleading shareholders over the whole Merrill Lynch fiasco? Is he being sold down the river by Bernanke and Paulson?

sdfc

12 Feb 10 at 8:56 pm
4:25 JC, I’ve got it down to a fine art. I get a lift during summer, the first train doesn’t get into town until about 5:30. I do a bit of portfolio work and I’ve been trying to convince the ALM manager that we can do the early stuff from home. Not having much luck so far.

sdfc

12 Feb 10 at 9:06 pm
Gawd. From “Cube Farmer blog” at news ltd:

“Former High Court Judge Michael Kirby and entertainment celebrity reporter Richard Wilkins helped launch a new project today called Pride In Diversity designed to support employers creating workcultures inclusive of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people [LGBT]. …

Diversity actually benefits everyone so I am happy to see this initiative get off the ground. It’s a first for Australia and brings us up-to-date with what has been happening in the US, UK and Europe for quite a while.

The list of employers signing up to be “foundation members” is impressive – IBM, KPMG, ING Australia, Goldman Sachs JBWere, Lend Lease, the Department of Defence, the Australian Federal Police and Telstra.”

Why’s Wilkin’s involved with this? Don’t anti-discrimination laws which have been around for yonks make big organisations careful on how they administer staff already? Why do I get the feeling that it’s more than about shrugging your shoulders about whether your co-worker is gay.

steve from brisbane

12 Feb 10 at 9:55 pm
I forgot the link:

http://blogs.news.com.au/cubefarmer/index.php/news/comments/leading_employers_take_a_gay_friendly_pledge/

steve from brisbane

12 Feb 10 at 9:57 pm
I’m interested JC, as somneone on the other side of the fence on most issues, What do you reckon about Ken Lewis ex-Ceo of Bank of America being charged with misleading shareholders over the whole Merrill Lynch fiasco? Is he being sold down the river by Bernanke and Paulson?

Sdfc, I think Ken Lewis is a fucking hero. I think he’s a true American hero who may have actually ended up saving the US and now is paying the price of assisting the US government.

He epitomizes why you should never trust government as those fuckers will sell you down the river in a heart beat to protect themselves.

As for that wretched Cuomo going after him and BAC…. I really think they ought to ban the Attorney General’s position in NY as it seems that every fucking arsehole with political ambitions runs for that job and then goes around fucking people.

Spitzer, Cuomo and Giuliani have all abused that positions to further their political ambitions.

Lewis wanting to walk away from the Merrill deal after it became clear it wasn’t what he thought he bought was more or less bludgeoned by Paulson and Bernanke into buying it or else. He then abides by the bonus decision already made and is tormented by the government for doing so.

This is why I despise governments so much.

Mind you the SEC just settled with Bank of America for $150 million where BAC didn’t admit any wrongdoing.

Now get this … The SEC fines BAC 150 million because they accused the management of not informing the shareholders. How the fuck does that fine levied against BAC help the shareholders is insane. It’s nothing less than gouging. That sack of shit Cuomo is trying the same thing. Mind you the only jurisdictional reason Cuomo is after them is because BAC is listed on the NY stock exchange.

There is nothing more despicable to me than the US Democrats. They really are and always were a form of a fascist party.

JC

12 Feb 10 at 10:14 pm
Gubbermint enforced “diversity” as practiced in the US, UK and Europe is a code word for programs whose purpose is rendering discrimination against heterosexual people licit.

C.L.

12 Feb 10 at 10:18 pm
Incidentally (in relation to CL’s elephant comment wa-a-a-ay up above) – I’m taking the kids to the zoo on Sunday to see the baby elephant. Will report back, but I can’t imagine her being anything but cute, cute, cute!

Legal Eagle

12 Feb 10 at 10:21 pm
Cuomo’s a crusader, that can be good or bad.

The court case should be interesting, Bernanke and Paulson will appear as witnesses, that is unless some law I don’t know about says they don’t have to.

They fell into the trap of thinking the ends justifies the means.

sdfc

12 Feb 10 at 10:38 pm
it’s on.

http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2010/02/12/amzn-reportedly-mulls-free-kindle-for-amazon-prime-subs/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+barrons%2Ftechtraderdaily%2Ffeed+%28BARRONS.com+Blog%3A+Tech+Trader+Daily%29

JC

13 Feb 10 at 4:11 am
JC, to say that must mean you’ve never spent much time reading the comments on a “skeptic” site like (the now defunct) Jennifer Marohasy’s. And you are also giving no credit to the degree of annoyance that must surely come with having to repeat and repeat and repeat why certain skeptic arguments are wrong ad infinitum.

A distraction. What appears in the comments of a blog is irrelevant so far as the civility of a debate is concerned; I was referring to the principals in any debate: the scientists, journal editors, news reporters, opinion writers, etc., not what Bird or anyone else might have to say on a blog. CL is right about the warmists being ‘schooled’, I’d also add they’ve been chastened by the last three months. As for annoyance, please, what condescending twaddle which is beside the point. Firstly, that is precisely what civility is supposed to moderate; and secondly, where not talking about commenters on blogs but about the work of Douglass, McIntyre, Pielke Sr, Spencer, etc. which can’t simply be brushed aside as wrong. Moreover, we’ve seen that the responses of scientists like Mann to McIntyre’s claims as in one instance being ‘bizarre’ were in fact accurate. What you interpret as annoyance is often an incapacity to formulate a coherent response.

dover_beach

13 Feb 10 at 8:54 am
And Bolt and co never once accused AGW proponents of being fascist/having mental illness.

Considering the manner many have treated Bolt, it is of a piece. Marr reading a paper while Bolt spoke of AGW on Insiders, Crabb referring to a study Bolt might have raised as being from the University of East Bumcrack. How amusing to find that the leaked emails dubbed Climategate emerged from the CRU based at the University of East Anglia. Speaking of bumcracks….

dover_beach

13 Feb 10 at 9:01 am
(By the way, I find it curious why skeptics, those great hard working debunkers, aren’t just a little embarrassed that it took them so long to get onto the glacier mistake.)

As opposed to the “4000 humourless scientists” Rudd refers to as the IPCC. Steve from B, you really are a little desperate for good news these days.

Whereas, if they were more sensible, they would realise that something like the issue of whether the Himalayan glaciers take 30 or 300 years to melt will not be a big issue if temperatures have increased (say) 4 degree in 150 years.

So ‘sensible’ scepticism requires you to be more speculative? BTW, it is very unlikely that temps will rise by 4 C in the next 150 years.

dover_beach

13 Feb 10 at 9:09 am
“Steve from B, you really are a little desperate for good news these days.”

What, like January 2010 being the hottest January in the UAH 30 year record? (And that being just a tad under the 1998′s all time high?) Stop counting your skeptic eggs before they’re all hatched, DB.

steve from brisbane

13 Feb 10 at 9:23 am
What, like January 2010 being the hottest January in the UAH 30 year record?

I think that is bad news for you, Steve. Look at what happens to temps following 1998 once the El Nino disappeared as it is disappearing here, and add into that the on-going decline in ocean heat content.

Stop counting your skeptic eggs before they’re all hatched, DB.

I’m conservative so I never do that, Steve, but I’m wondering about you.

dover_beach

13 Feb 10 at 9:31 am
“Sdfc, I think Ken Lewis is a fucking hero. I think he’s a true American hero who may have actually ended up saving the US and now is paying the price of assisting the US government.”

Very interesting. Further enquiries could elicit valuable information for younger readers. The kids have so few role models that we can speak of as heroes. True heroes. True American heroes.

I trust this is not welfare-queen banker whoredom speaking.

For the benefit of younger reasons can we hone in on the particulars of this mans heroism. Any good hero is worthy of emulation. We want to get right down to his derring-do. His bravery under fire. His bold yet honest moves. His fending off of temptation in the face of generalised brutalitarian thieving.

More details please.

Mill

13 Feb 10 at 10:17 am
Bird:

I see you’re back as Mill?

JC

13 Feb 10 at 10:41 am
Cuomo’s a crusader, that can be good or bad.

The court case should be interesting, Bernanke and Paulson will appear as witnesses, that is unless some law I don’t know about says they don’t have to.

They fell into the trap of thinking the ends justifies the means.

Cuomo’s extra-jurisdictional push is a bad thing period. He’s only hounding Bank America to use as a springboard to Albany, that’s all.

It won’t go to court as all he’s looking for is a settlement of say $50 million and the ability to declare victory. His father was an incompetent but was never this ruthless.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 11:10 am
I love Barbara . What would tv be without her! I hope that she is going to be better and better!

Gaynell Obermann

12 May 10 at 12:15 am

Catallaxy Files

Open Forum February 6, 2010

781 Responses to 'Open Forum February 6, 2010'

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