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	<title>Comments on: ClimateGate Fallout</title>
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	<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/</link>
	<description>Australia&#039;s leading libertarian and centre-right blog</description>
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		<title>By: rloader</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-13781</link>
		<dc:creator>rloader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-13781</guid>
		<description>Would you trust the Rudd Govt on climate change policy after the disastrous pink batts controversy where four young Australians died and the PM fully endorsed the Minister Garrett who got it so badly wrong?  Garrett was warned repeatedly by various top Electrical bodies and refused to do anything about it.
I cannot believe this sort of thing is happening in our Parliament.  They must be the laughing stock of the world for incompetence and for bullying and badmouthing the Opposition and we pay their undeserved salaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you trust the Rudd Govt on climate change policy after the disastrous pink batts controversy where four young Australians died and the PM fully endorsed the Minister Garrett who got it so badly wrong?  Garrett was warned repeatedly by various top Electrical bodies and refused to do anything about it.<br />
I cannot believe this sort of thing is happening in our Parliament.  They must be the laughing stock of the world for incompetence and for bullying and badmouthing the Opposition and we pay their undeserved salaries.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-13525</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:15:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-13525</guid>
		<description>@Zoe Brain

That quote was not from the MET office, or any staffer. It was a troll post on a forum that has become viral.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Zoe Brain</p>
<p>That quote was not from the MET office, or any staffer. It was a troll post on a forum that has become viral.</p>
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		<title>By: Abu Chowdah</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-13487</link>
		<dc:creator>Abu Chowdah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-13487</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Perhaps, but if so they were so thru prejudice and not observation. Now which one of these attributes is scientific and which one is not?&lt;/i&gt;

Right, Adrien. Ri-i-i-g-hht.

Curse them for publishing scientists who contradicted the orthodoxy. Do you not see how your blinkered position undermines your credibility?

Let me summarise your position: &quot;curse them for proving me wrong, their evidence only hardens my resolve in my religious beliefs.&quot;

You people really are embarrasing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Perhaps, but if so they were so thru prejudice and not observation. Now which one of these attributes is scientific and which one is not?</i></p>
<p>Right, Adrien. Ri-i-i-g-hht.</p>
<p>Curse them for publishing scientists who contradicted the orthodoxy. Do you not see how your blinkered position undermines your credibility?</p>
<p>Let me summarise your position: &#8220;curse them for proving me wrong, their evidence only hardens my resolve in my religious beliefs.&#8221;</p>
<p>You people really are embarrasing.</p>
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		<title>By: Abu Chowdah</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-13485</link>
		<dc:creator>Abu Chowdah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-13485</guid>
		<description>Adrien... Tch, tch, tch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrien&#8230; Tch, tch, tch.</p>
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		<title>By: Zoe Brain</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-13321</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoe Brain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 04:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-13321</guid>
		<description>Steve_from_Brisbane -

&quot;Apart from “Climategate,” surely everyone would have to acknowledge that a survey done in England while still in the coldest winter for decades is going to sway some to warming skepticism.&#039;

It wasn&#039;t that. It was that according to the UK Meteorology Office, this winter is the warmest in living memory. Really.

&quot;From a Met Office staffer’s internet posting to a newspaper (in early January):

“This will be the warmest winter in living memory, the data has already been recorded. For your information, we take the highest 15 readings between November and March and then produce an average. As November was a very seasonally warm month, then all the data will come from those readings.”

At some point in time, people are going to compare what such people are saying, look outside the window, and say &quot;hang on...&quot;.

While one can quite reasonably say that minor variations in weekly weather - or even major ones - aren&#039;t symptomatic of anything apart from short-term variability, a claim that this is not just a warm winter, but the warmest in living memory indicates that some have lost their grip on reality. Not just by substituting the pseudoscience of political climatology vs the ill-understood science of actual climatology, but thinking that everyone would ignore unsubtle and blatantly obvious evidence that they&#039;re off with the faeries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve_from_Brisbane -</p>
<p>&#8220;Apart from “Climategate,” surely everyone would have to acknowledge that a survey done in England while still in the coldest winter for decades is going to sway some to warming skepticism.&#8217;</p>
<p>It wasn&#8217;t that. It was that according to the UK Meteorology Office, this winter is the warmest in living memory. Really.</p>
<p>&#8220;From a Met Office staffer’s internet posting to a newspaper (in early January):</p>
<p>“This will be the warmest winter in living memory, the data has already been recorded. For your information, we take the highest 15 readings between November and March and then produce an average. As November was a very seasonally warm month, then all the data will come from those readings.”</p>
<p>At some point in time, people are going to compare what such people are saying, look outside the window, and say &#8220;hang on&#8230;&#8221;.</p>
<p>While one can quite reasonably say that minor variations in weekly weather &#8211; or even major ones &#8211; aren&#8217;t symptomatic of anything apart from short-term variability, a claim that this is not just a warm winter, but the warmest in living memory indicates that some have lost their grip on reality. Not just by substituting the pseudoscience of political climatology vs the ill-understood science of actual climatology, but thinking that everyone would ignore unsubtle and blatantly obvious evidence that they&#8217;re off with the faeries.</p>
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		<title>By: gallopingcamel</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-12285</link>
		<dc:creator>gallopingcamel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-12285</guid>
		<description>I tested some claims in D&#039;Aleo and Watts concerning the declining number of weather stations included in the GHCN v2 (NOAA/NCDC).

I found that D&amp;A were right but it took the wind out of my sails when someone pointed out that similar information was published 13 years ago by Peterson &amp; Vose (1997).

Thank goodness the Mormon church does not run their on-line IGI database the way NASA and NOAA run theirs!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tested some claims in D&#8217;Aleo and Watts concerning the declining number of weather stations included in the GHCN v2 (NOAA/NCDC).</p>
<p>I found that D&amp;A were right but it took the wind out of my sails when someone pointed out that similar information was published 13 years ago by Peterson &amp; Vose (1997).</p>
<p>Thank goodness the Mormon church does not run their on-line IGI database the way NASA and NOAA run theirs!</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Patton</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-12200</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 08:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-12200</guid>
		<description>Look, this whole &quot;the science is too complex, we must trust the experts&quot; is such a crock.

Any one of us and our kids can make very intelligent contributions to this debate with just Year 10 Science and Geography. 

1. We have all learnt about the water cycle (evaporation, condensation, precipitation, etc).

2. We have all learnt about basic animal phsyiology and photosynthesis.

3. We all have a basic knowledge of the periodic table, and where abouts on it elements like carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen sit. We all know about atomic numbers and atomic masses. So we know how oxygen binds with carbon, hydrogen, etc.

4. We have a basic idea of the carbon/hydrogen/oxygen/nitrogen cycles.

5. We either already know, or could find out in a jiffy, that the major greenhouse gases are water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, and ozone. It might surprise a lot of us to be told that the largest concentration by far is &lt;i&gt;water vapor&lt;/i&gt; at 60% or so.

5. Now, when the issue turns to how these gases affect temperature, things suddenly get very complicated as we enter the realm of &lt;i&gt;radiative forcings&lt;/i&gt; - the heat energy beamed back down to the atmosphere by the greenhouse gases themselves - and the big scary Darth Vadar of them all &lt;i&gt;external forcings&lt;/i&gt; which covers all the astronomy on changes in earth&#039;s three orbital cycles. HSC Physics should do the trick.

So all in all, the quality of debate among the Australian laity should be 1,000 times higher. It&#039;s not rocket science.   ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, this whole &#8220;the science is too complex, we must trust the experts&#8221; is such a crock.</p>
<p>Any one of us and our kids can make very intelligent contributions to this debate with just Year 10 Science and Geography. </p>
<p>1. We have all learnt about the water cycle (evaporation, condensation, precipitation, etc).</p>
<p>2. We have all learnt about basic animal phsyiology and photosynthesis.</p>
<p>3. We all have a basic knowledge of the periodic table, and where abouts on it elements like carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen sit. We all know about atomic numbers and atomic masses. So we know how oxygen binds with carbon, hydrogen, etc.</p>
<p>4. We have a basic idea of the carbon/hydrogen/oxygen/nitrogen cycles.</p>
<p>5. We either already know, or could find out in a jiffy, that the major greenhouse gases are water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, and ozone. It might surprise a lot of us to be told that the largest concentration by far is <i>water vapor</i> at 60% or so.</p>
<p>5. Now, when the issue turns to how these gases affect temperature, things suddenly get very complicated as we enter the realm of <i>radiative forcings</i> &#8211; the heat energy beamed back down to the atmosphere by the greenhouse gases themselves &#8211; and the big scary Darth Vadar of them all <i>external forcings</i> which covers all the astronomy on changes in earth&#8217;s three orbital cycles. HSC Physics should do the trick.</p>
<p>So all in all, the quality of debate among the Australian laity should be 1,000 times higher. It&#8217;s not rocket science.   <img src='http://catallaxyfiles.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Pedrox X</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-12144</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedrox X</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 03:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-12144</guid>
		<description>The change in opinion in the UK is remarkable. The articles in the Guraniad over the last few weeks have been startling. To see them start to run things that would only have been in the Torygraph a year ago is a major shift.

There has to be a big question about what the political response to this is going to be. Will the Tories change tack on the issue?

Der Speigel has also been writing about this and having interviews with people like Von Storch and Pielke Jnr. It would be interesting to see if German public opinion is changing.

Other sizeable states in the EU, includng Poland and Italy, have not been keen on C02 emission&#039;s reduction schemes. They will comply if offered sufficient compensation but even this may crack if public opinion in those countries shifts and the international setup changes. 

In the US things have also changed. No treaty that requires 67 votes is going to pass. The Democrats have to be worried about a backlash in November. It&#039;s hard to imagine them doing much.

India has withdrawn their support from the IPCC process and wants to set up their own scientific board. If China were to join them the whole UN framework would pretty much be dead.

Which leads on to what is Australia going to do. Will The ALP, which is probably going to win the next election, keep with their current program in response to the changes internationally or are they going to change tack?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The change in opinion in the UK is remarkable. The articles in the Guraniad over the last few weeks have been startling. To see them start to run things that would only have been in the Torygraph a year ago is a major shift.</p>
<p>There has to be a big question about what the political response to this is going to be. Will the Tories change tack on the issue?</p>
<p>Der Speigel has also been writing about this and having interviews with people like Von Storch and Pielke Jnr. It would be interesting to see if German public opinion is changing.</p>
<p>Other sizeable states in the EU, includng Poland and Italy, have not been keen on C02 emission&#8217;s reduction schemes. They will comply if offered sufficient compensation but even this may crack if public opinion in those countries shifts and the international setup changes. </p>
<p>In the US things have also changed. No treaty that requires 67 votes is going to pass. The Democrats have to be worried about a backlash in November. It&#8217;s hard to imagine them doing much.</p>
<p>India has withdrawn their support from the IPCC process and wants to set up their own scientific board. If China were to join them the whole UN framework would pretty much be dead.</p>
<p>Which leads on to what is Australia going to do. Will The ALP, which is probably going to win the next election, keep with their current program in response to the changes internationally or are they going to change tack?</p>
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		<title>By: John A. Jauregui</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-12114</link>
		<dc:creator>John A. Jauregui</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 02:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-12114</guid>
		<description>The silence is deafening.  Our national media’s continued silence on ClimateGate and increasing revelations of outright fraud and wrongdoing at all levels of government, academia and the media itself, tells the truth of the tail.   That truth is there&#039;s a lot more to this ClimateGate story than what little is being reported.  The small (2 to 3 dozen) international cabal of climate scientists could not have possibly gotten to this point without extraordinary funding, political support at virtually all levels of government, especially at the national level and unparalleled cooperation from the national and world media.  This wide-spread networked support continues even as we-the-people puzzle over what this is all about.  I ask you, &quot;What are you seeing and hearing from our national media on the subject?&quot;  Anything?  What are you seeing and hearing from all levels of our government, local and regional newspapers and media outlets?  Anything of substance?   At all of these levels the chatter has remained remarkably quite on the subject, wouldn&#039;t you say?  Why?  What points and positions are you beginning to hear on the radio and see on the television?  This cabal of scientists has an unprecedented level of support given the revelations contained in the emails, documented in the computer software code and elaborated in the associated programmer remarks (REM) within the code.    And ---- this has gone on for years, AND continues even in the presence of the most damning evidence one could imagine, or even hope for.  Watergate pales in comparison, given the trillions of dollars in carbon offset taxes, cap &amp; trade fees hanging in the balance and the unimaginable political control over people’s lives this all implies.  The mainstream media&#039;s conspiracy of silence proves the point.  Their continued cover-up is as much a part of this crime as the actual scientific fraud.  ABC, CBS and NBC are simply co-conspirators exercising their 5th Amendment rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The silence is deafening.  Our national media’s continued silence on ClimateGate and increasing revelations of outright fraud and wrongdoing at all levels of government, academia and the media itself, tells the truth of the tail.   That truth is there&#8217;s a lot more to this ClimateGate story than what little is being reported.  The small (2 to 3 dozen) international cabal of climate scientists could not have possibly gotten to this point without extraordinary funding, political support at virtually all levels of government, especially at the national level and unparalleled cooperation from the national and world media.  This wide-spread networked support continues even as we-the-people puzzle over what this is all about.  I ask you, &#8220;What are you seeing and hearing from our national media on the subject?&#8221;  Anything?  What are you seeing and hearing from all levels of our government, local and regional newspapers and media outlets?  Anything of substance?   At all of these levels the chatter has remained remarkably quite on the subject, wouldn&#8217;t you say?  Why?  What points and positions are you beginning to hear on the radio and see on the television?  This cabal of scientists has an unprecedented level of support given the revelations contained in the emails, documented in the computer software code and elaborated in the associated programmer remarks (REM) within the code.    And &#8212;- this has gone on for years, AND continues even in the presence of the most damning evidence one could imagine, or even hope for.  Watergate pales in comparison, given the trillions of dollars in carbon offset taxes, cap &amp; trade fees hanging in the balance and the unimaginable political control over people’s lives this all implies.  The mainstream media&#8217;s conspiracy of silence proves the point.  Their continued cover-up is as much a part of this crime as the actual scientific fraud.  ABC, CBS and NBC are simply co-conspirators exercising their 5th Amendment rights.</p>
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		<title>By: dover_beach</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/climategate-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-12109</link>
		<dc:creator>dover_beach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 02:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7967#comment-12109</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yet the satellite temperatures for January just released show how misleading this impression is.&lt;/i&gt;

As entropy noted, the reason for the &#039;dead cat bounce&#039; in January is El Nino since most of the anomalously warm temps are being recorded over the oceans (particularly over the Eastern and Southern Pacific) rather than over land. When you combine this with the declining trend in ocean heat content, I&#039;m guessing that this anomalously warm reading in January and maybe Feb portends colder temps for the rest of the year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Yet the satellite temperatures for January just released show how misleading this impression is.</i></p>
<p>As entropy noted, the reason for the &#8216;dead cat bounce&#8217; in January is El Nino since most of the anomalously warm temps are being recorded over the oceans (particularly over the Eastern and Southern Pacific) rather than over land. When you combine this with the declining trend in ocean heat content, I&#8217;m guessing that this anomalously warm reading in January and maybe Feb portends colder temps for the rest of the year.</p>
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