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	<title>Comments on: The Trojan Horse of &#8220;rights&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/</link>
	<description>Australia&#039;s leading libertarian and centre-right blog</description>
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		<title>By: Peter Patton</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12746</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12746</guid>
		<description>What I can&#039;t understand is why such a &quot;Bill of Rights&quot; champion like McLelland is now chickening out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I can&#8217;t understand is why such a &#8220;Bill of Rights&#8221; champion like McLelland is now chickening out.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Patton</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12185</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12185</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Au contraire&lt;/i&gt;. I think we should have a constitutional right to be as offensive to certain people as we like!    :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Au contraire</i>. I think we should have a constitutional right to be as offensive to certain people as we like!    <img src='http://catallaxyfiles.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12184</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12184</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Adrien, shouldn’t your bill of rights, or constitutional amendments, just include rules about being nice to each other?&lt;/i&gt;
.

Again: positive rights are a dumb idea. So is being nice to some people. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Adrien, shouldn’t your bill of rights, or constitutional amendments, just include rules about being nice to each other?</i><br />
.</p>
<p>Again: positive rights are a dumb idea. So is being nice to some people. <img src='http://catallaxyfiles.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Peter Patton</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12163</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 04:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12163</guid>
		<description>db

Except the current campaign in Australia is being run by people whose agenda is far, far beyond these basic rights against and arbitrary and capricious state stomping on an individual&#039;s liberty. You don&#039;t have to read these people for very long before you see how plainly is their aim to implement socialism, even communism, by charter. Truly scary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>db</p>
<p>Except the current campaign in Australia is being run by people whose agenda is far, far beyond these basic rights against and arbitrary and capricious state stomping on an individual&#8217;s liberty. You don&#8217;t have to read these people for very long before you see how plainly is their aim to implement socialism, even communism, by charter. Truly scary.</p>
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		<title>By: dover_beach</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12157</link>
		<dc:creator>dover_beach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 04:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12157</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Property, speech, association, fair trial and no imprisonment without one .. y’know the standard ones everyone agrees on.&lt;/i&gt;

But none of these rights is absolute or unconditional; and the courts will nevertheless still have to interpret whether they have been satisfied or not in the circumstances. Charters of Rights are generally imagined to be magic bullets that are better at preserving our present freedoms then either common and statute law, but they simply aren&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Property, speech, association, fair trial and no imprisonment without one .. y’know the standard ones everyone agrees on.</i></p>
<p>But none of these rights is absolute or unconditional; and the courts will nevertheless still have to interpret whether they have been satisfied or not in the circumstances. Charters of Rights are generally imagined to be magic bullets that are better at preserving our present freedoms then either common and statute law, but they simply aren&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Sutcliffe</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12088</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Sutcliffe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12088</guid>
		<description>Adrien, shouldn&#039;t your bill of rights, or constitutional amendments, just include rules about being nice to each other?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrien, shouldn&#8217;t your bill of rights, or constitutional amendments, just include rules about being nice to each other?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Patton</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12087</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12087</guid>
		<description>Rafe

I am surprised by how ambivalent I have become about an Australian Bill of Rights. I still do believe our Constitution needs some significant improvements. 

But I was stunned at the cynicism of this extremely small clique of law academics and NGOs who out of nowhere stole the agenda for themselves, and repackaged it as a legislative Charter of Rights. This group acts like modern day carpetbaggers.

The 2 most objectionable features of the current Charter movement are:

1. It presumes an off-the-rack approach is preferable to an Australian grass roots approach. They have just downloaded 1, and sometimes 2 and 3 or more, UN Conventions, and now agitate that these should be &lt;i&gt;Australia&#039;&lt;/i&gt; Charter of Rights.

2. It is a nonsense for parliament - and indeed, the &lt;i&gt;current&lt;/i&gt; executive - to presume to enact a Bill of citizen&#039;s rights against that very same parliament and executive. Poachers and gamekeepers come to mind.

I now I am not a supporter of this mooted legislative Charter of Rights, at least not while the current dodgy clique of carpetbaggers are running the agenda. 

I am particularly offended that they can so brazenly say &quot;it will be just another law, like any other&quot;.

But we don&#039;t want another LAW. we wants RIGHTS. &quot;Rights&quot; are a whole other - higher - level than mere &quot;laws&quot;. Even the carpetbaggers&#039; &lt;i&gt;own&lt;/i&gt; model legislative Charters insist that every other law in the land be subject to the &quot;rights&quot; in this charter. So, right from the get-go, they are brazenly lying to us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rafe</p>
<p>I am surprised by how ambivalent I have become about an Australian Bill of Rights. I still do believe our Constitution needs some significant improvements. </p>
<p>But I was stunned at the cynicism of this extremely small clique of law academics and NGOs who out of nowhere stole the agenda for themselves, and repackaged it as a legislative Charter of Rights. This group acts like modern day carpetbaggers.</p>
<p>The 2 most objectionable features of the current Charter movement are:</p>
<p>1. It presumes an off-the-rack approach is preferable to an Australian grass roots approach. They have just downloaded 1, and sometimes 2 and 3 or more, UN Conventions, and now agitate that these should be <i>Australia&#8217;</i> Charter of Rights.</p>
<p>2. It is a nonsense for parliament &#8211; and indeed, the <i>current</i> executive &#8211; to presume to enact a Bill of citizen&#8217;s rights against that very same parliament and executive. Poachers and gamekeepers come to mind.</p>
<p>I now I am not a supporter of this mooted legislative Charter of Rights, at least not while the current dodgy clique of carpetbaggers are running the agenda. </p>
<p>I am particularly offended that they can so brazenly say &#8220;it will be just another law, like any other&#8221;.</p>
<p>But we don&#8217;t want another LAW. we wants RIGHTS. &#8220;Rights&#8221; are a whole other &#8211; higher &#8211; level than mere &#8220;laws&#8221;. Even the carpetbaggers&#8217; <i>own</i> model legislative Charters insist that every other law in the land be subject to the &#8220;rights&#8221; in this charter. So, right from the get-go, they are brazenly lying to us.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12081</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12081</guid>
		<description>No Michael you&#039;ve got it backwards. Nos 1,2,3 flow from #4. IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Michael you&#8217;ve got it backwards. Nos 1,2,3 flow from #4. IMHO.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Sutcliffe</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12071</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Sutcliffe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12071</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t the whole point that No.4 is some the things flowing from upholding No.1, No.2 and No.3?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the whole point that No.4 is some the things flowing from upholding No.1, No.2 and No.3?</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/07/the-trojan-horse-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-12066</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=7963#comment-12066</guid>
		<description>I look forward to it. But the moral framework is the rub. Religions of the world are two things: out of date and not exactly universally complied with. Secular humanism has not replaced them either. It&#039;s an elephant that&#039;s been sitting on the couch since Charles Dickens was alive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I look forward to it. But the moral framework is the rub. Religions of the world are two things: out of date and not exactly universally complied with. Secular humanism has not replaced them either. It&#8217;s an elephant that&#8217;s been sitting on the couch since Charles Dickens was alive.</p>
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