Peter Garrett’s position is untenable. With reports that he was advised a year ago of the risks of electrical misadventure on the installation of aluminium roof insulation, four people have now died from electrocution, others have been injured and an unknown number of homes have dangerous and potentially fatal electrical problems.
Now more taxpayers’ money is going to be spent (I shan’t say wasted as in this instance the audits are necessary given the incompetence in the original installation project) on home safety inspections.
Garrett cannot sing his way out of this hole. He will lose his job, it is now merely a matter of time. He may as well depart early and preserve some of his dignity.
We cannot blame Garrett alone for the extraordinary waste that was the roof insulation program under the stimulus package. That is the Government’s issue and the Prime Minister, Treasurer and Finance Minister must take primary responsibility for that angle. But Garrett was in charge of the implementation of the insulation program and must take full responsibility for the rush that led to the deaths and injuries.
Perhaps he would do well to return to his previous occupation and compose a requiem?
Then the Prime Minister could appoint the Member for Wentworth as Environment Minister.
I don’t see that it is the government’s responsibility to see that the installers did their jobs properly.
There was probably something resembling a moral hazard because it was not costing householders a lot but surely they were still responsible for the safety of the job.
I have adopted a nom de guerre not to hide my identity but to limit my Googletrail.
ken n
11 Feb 10 at 8:42 am
LOL. In fact turnbull could replace that robot Wong as well and save some dollars.
Entropy
11 Feb 10 at 9:27 am
How do we sleep while our houses are burning?
Pedro X
11 Feb 10 at 9:40 am
Sorry,
“How can we sleep while our houses are burning”
(would be the better lyric).
Pedro X
11 Feb 10 at 9:41 am
10pts for the last line, although I suspect the member for Wentworth may even be too left wing for the ALP.
Duncan Riley
11 Feb 10 at 9:44 am
Peter Garrett had only this to say:
http://www.kohila.com/you/research/sorry.jpg
Infidel Tiger
11 Feb 10 at 10:56 am
Smauel:
In case you haven’t noticed. The original doctor’s wife is very very angry at you because you’re not “saving the planet”.
He used once get angry at lefties and libertarians but now he just gets angry at right wingers.
http://www.harryrclarke.com/2010/02/08/malcolm-turnbulls-defense-of-the-cprs-better-than-rudds/#comments
JC
11 Feb 10 at 11:45 am
The Electrical Trades Union (ETU) throws Garrett under the bus.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 12:17 pm
So Samuel thinks Garret should resign because consumers were not regulated enough.
You ‘Libertarians’ are sooo consistent
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
11 Feb 10 at 12:47 pm
What is it about these members of Wentworth… I think it’s worth losing WW to the Greens (or Labor) just to be free of future baggage from the next disgruntled Hewson/ Turnbull.
Sleetmute
11 Feb 10 at 12:53 pm
House fire attributed to Rudd-Garrett insulation disaster. With pictures.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 1:39 pm
ETU Victorian secretary Dean Mighell throws Garrett under the bus.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 1:41 pm
homer, one of the great things about this site is that a variety of opinions is tolerated. Attacked, abused perhaps but still tolerated. It would be a waste of electrons if it was more consistent than tolerant.
That said, you do have a point in your first sentence.
ken n
11 Feb 10 at 1:41 pm
Does anyone else think that P Garrett looks like Gollum?Or am I just nasty?
tal
11 Feb 10 at 1:45 pm
Chris Bowen on Lateline last night:
On Barnaby Joyce:
“What we’re seeing is a pattern of erratic and dangerous behaviour from Barnaby Joyce… what a dangerous proposition he would be as finance minister… such an erratic and dangerous approach.”
On Peter Garrett, responsible for the deaths of four workers, including one intellectually disabled 19 year-old:
“Peter Garrett has acted responsibly and carefully at every step and has acted as any minister should or would, and calls for his resignation from the Opposition are very opportunistic… I have no trouble coming on here tonight and defending Peter Garrett.”
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 1:51 pm
You’re just nasty, Tal; Gollum never deserved such opprobrium.
dover_beach
11 Feb 10 at 1:56 pm
I watched Lateline last night, CL. Bowen is another Rudd-clone, and he has a permanent smirk on his face that would make Costello blush.
dover_beach
11 Feb 10 at 1:58 pm
You’re right Dover
tal
11 Feb 10 at 2:00 pm
Revealed:
Peter Garrett’s department repeatedly warned about roof insulation danger.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 3:57 pm
Also breaking:
Peter Garrett’s department failed to invite peak national electrical body to safety meetings on roof insulation.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 3:58 pm
Probably didn’t have time to invite anyone. There was a crisis on, you know.
Sinclair Davidson
11 Feb 10 at 4:07 pm
hey, but it’s Barnaby’s fault these people died. Garrett is totally innocent.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 4:12 pm
Well, if there wasn’t a crisis then, there appears to one now, at least, so far as Garrett is concerned.
dover_beach
11 Feb 10 at 4:16 pm
Oh, but what do his eyes say:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/11/2816296.htm
dover_beach
11 Feb 10 at 4:18 pm
Halloween mask continues to take any share of responsibility despite being warned. It’s everyone else’s fault.
But Mr Garrett rejected allegations that he failed to act on warnings about the dangers of the scheme and said he was not to blame for the deaths of installers.
“It’s not a Government rebate that has led to these terrible fatalities,” he told ABC2 News Breakfast this morning.
“It’s people actually breaching the guidelines as installers, not properly following the rules and regulations that we’ve put in place, and exposing their employees in some cases to a terrible risk and death.
“Now they have a responsibility as well.”
Yesterday Mr Garrett told Parliament that he received a letter from the National Electrical and Communications Association (NECA) about the safety problems in the scheme last March.
It also emerged that state authorities contacted his department in April to discuss concerns over fires and consumer complaints.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 4:23 pm
oops continues to shirk….
JC
11 Feb 10 at 4:23 pm
I kind of feel sorry for Garrett, because everything he did was probably with some high ranking public servant’s recommendation/advice (especially his being a “green” Minister and all,) yet I suspect he probably does feel very bad and some personal responsibility about the deaths underneath his attempts to justify himself.
steve from brisbane
11 Feb 10 at 4:25 pm
Over at Larvatus Prodeo – where the commenters care deeply for The Workers – Paul Burns explains what sort of disaster could be in the offing because thousands of houses are now potential death traps:
Lefty E: hey, let’s start electrocuting Abos!
Mark Bahnisch takes a stance for The Workers:
Hilarious insight from ‘Terry’:
Grace Pettigrew blames teh public service lay-abouts, suggests Garrett be given more cash:
Robert Merkel blames teh States:
Billie blames the working class:
Paul Burns again, blaming Hawke and Keating:
Nasking blames a capitalist media conspiracy:
Mary’s in love:
Marks blames John Howard and Chris Corrigan:
Patricia WA blames Tony Abbott and Fran Kelly:
No biggie, says the aptly named ‘Bemused’:
They care deeply for The Workers.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 4:34 pm
What’s the point of trying to read Garrett’s mind, Steve?
According to his comments the most important thing Halloween mask sees in all this is self protection otherwise he wouldn’t be pushing the blame on other people.
So if you’re going to read someone’s mind in this, I don’t read Halloween mask like you do. He doesn’t seem to give a shit other than for himself.
The mother of one of the dead kid’s thinks he should resign and take the rap by the way.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 4:34 pm
His eyes say: “I wish I’d stuck to the Nuclear Disarmament Party. We never had to be accountable. No, wait. I wish I was playing RSL clubs. Cheap drinks and a good carvery would have made me happy.”
Infidel Tiger
11 Feb 10 at 4:35 pm
I hope he writes a song holding the company accountable
tal
11 Feb 10 at 4:36 pm
Steve, I agree, but in the Westminster system, the buck stops with the Minister. Can I say, as an aside, that the above convention was conceivable in, and appropriate to, the 19th and early to mid-20th C precisely because governments had so much fewer engagements then they do now. In the current circumstances, the convention is like an IED along any politician’s roadside.
dover_beach
11 Feb 10 at 4:36 pm
This guy is on the short list for the Most Useless Motherfucker awards. He’s so dumb he needs instructions when he chews gum.
.
maybe he can get his old jopb back. I mean people’ll still pay to see him sing those songs won’t they?
.
Smirk.
Adrien
11 Feb 10 at 4:37 pm
four people have now died from electrocution
.
The families should sue, big time.
Adrien
11 Feb 10 at 4:39 pm
The way he dances he could hire himself out as a mobile wind turbine
tal
11 Feb 10 at 4:39 pm
This one is pretty “good”. I’m sure Rudd would be thinking the same thing. (When you fuck up.. do more of it).
Garrett deserves a clip over the ear from the PM, and an immediate increase in his departmental funding…
He sounds like a man in charge of his portfolio.
Wait a bit and Merkel will be telling us that the cola fired plants are at fault and the last person wouldn’t be dead if Monckotn wasn’t here.
Robert Merkel blames teh States:
Garrett is not blameless, but it’s state government ministers with the direct responsibility who should be resigning, not him.
I love Lavatory. I need to read it more often.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 4:40 pm
Well of course he didn’t personally tell installers to let some kid die of heat exhaustion, or use metal staples. It was shonky installers who directly caused the deaths; Garrett appears (I haven’t been following developments today) indirectly responsible via not heeding in a timely fashion warnings from the start from those responsible for regulating safety in the industry (the State departments) that a sudden rollout on such a scale would mean they couldn’t monitor the program properly. That to me is the crux of his problem.
steve from brisbane
11 Feb 10 at 4:45 pm
That to me is the crux of his problem.
Piffle. That’s a minor issue when Halloween Mask is so busy saving teh planet.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 4:48 pm
Piffle yourself JC. Of course he’s running defensive arguments; who wouldn’t? All I am saying is that part of his defence is that he was appropriately reactive when incidents started happening. But my point is (in my view) his biggest problem is the warnings not just from the industry group (which might have had their own motives involved in such a warning anyway) but from the safety monitors who warned him “hey, its impossible for us to monitor the safety of this program properly.”
steve from brisbane
11 Feb 10 at 4:54 pm
Steve if the scheme worked Garrett would have claimed victory no?
tal
11 Feb 10 at 4:58 pm
Piffle yourself JC. Of course he’s running defensive arguments; who wouldn’t?
Lots of people, Steve. What a real dude does is man-up and take the rap for fucking things up.
Seeing you’re into mind and eye reading these days here’s my take on Halloween Mask.
He doesn’t give a shit unless his adoring troupe back in Byron Bay care. If they don’t he doesn’t. It’s as easy as that.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 5:04 pm
Yes Tal, and the point being? I hope you realise I’m of the view that Garrett probably will go over this, and that seems appropriate, but I can still feel a bit sorry for him.
steve from brisbane
11 Feb 10 at 5:05 pm
I am just a more generous mind reader than you, JC.
steve from brisbane
11 Feb 10 at 5:06 pm
…he was appropriately reactive when incidents started happening.
Have you been following the news today, Steve?
Garrett knew of foil risks: electricians.
He has to resign.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 5:07 pm
No you’re not. All you’re doing is trying to mitigate the Mask’s attitude. The only reason you give a shit about Mask is because you think he’ll stop the thermostat going up.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 5:09 pm
Steve look I think he’s in over his head,he didn’t listen to people who knew better and for that he should go,in fact I think we need some mass sackings in Canberra
tal
11 Feb 10 at 5:09 pm
but I can still feel a bit sorry for him.
Of course. But so far you only seem to feel sorry for the Mask. The four people that were electrocuted… well they’re just a statistic now.
Lurch has been a thorough incompetent since the days before he entered parliament and was a punk completely over his head.
He’s more worthwhile to the Byron Bay troupe singing about the dangers of fast breeder reactors and shit like that.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 5:13 pm
Yet again, I express a sentiment, someone agrees with me pretty much (dover beach in this case) yet I’m the only one JC piles on! I really wish you would spread the aggro around more.
steve from brisbane
11 Feb 10 at 5:17 pm
I’m not being aggro Steve. In fact I’m hurt and offended you even suggest that.
I just reading minds in the same way as you read eyes and I’m more than a little surprised (and then not so much) over you shared grief for Lurch while not showing even the littlest sympathy for the 4 dead kids.
Lurch is alive and his adoring troupe back the bay still love him to death. He’s only a little rattled at the moment, but once he goes back there he’ll be fine and the dead kids only a sad reminder of his time in Parliament.
I’m only doing what you’re doing which is putting a “narrative” to this.
You’re feeling sorry for Lurch and I’m more then certain he’s sharing your grief too.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 5:25 pm
The chattering inmates refuse to allow the evidence to be reviewed – its ‘hang ‘em and hang ‘em high’
nor for one moment has the mob considered that maybe just maybe there is faulty wiring in them there roofs.
Nup. they is fixed on a hangin’
rog
11 Feb 10 at 5:29 pm
As usual JC’s mouth has overtaken his brain, he hasn’t the foggiest about home insulation, or anything remotely connected to construction, but he knows when he is right
Well he thinks he knows..
rog
11 Feb 10 at 5:31 pm
…nor for one moment has the mob considered that maybe just maybe there is faulty wiring in them there roofs.
Yeah, there is. In fact, that’s the gist of the whole thing, Rog, you block head.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 5:35 pm
Garrett should go. And Bowen’s defence is ridiculous. Tanner thinks its ok to cut corners and in essence put pressure on the installers to hire more people and increase costs. The wonders of a government initiative. Correction an emergency government initiative.
Keith
11 Feb 10 at 5:39 pm
nor for one moment has the mob considered that maybe just maybe there is faulty wiring in them there roofs.
Umm yes we did Rog. The warnings coming from the trade association and covered that VERY EXACT issue.
Would you like to try again or this embarrassment of foot in mouth disease enough for you today.(another)
Lurch fucked up. He’s a punk way over his head and now he’s blaming everyone but himself.
He needs to just go back quietly to his adoring crowds in the Bay and fuck right off out of our faces forever and only resurface next time there’s a mob scene protesting fast breeder reactors where he can lie and say 20,000 people died in the Soviet union accident. He said that recently.
Lurch is a fucking menace to the political system because of his lying an his incompetence.
Those dead beats will of course believe the lying dipstick.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 5:40 pm
The wonders of a government initiative. Correction an emergency government initiative.
Yep. As I keep asking.. can anyone remind me of one single spending initiative a government hasn’t fucked up over say the past 50 years. I can’t think of one.
Everything they touch turns to shit like Midas in reverse and that goes for governments of all stripes.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 5:45 pm
cola fired plants are at fault and the last person wouldn’t be dead if Monckotn wasn’t here.
.
They are at fault. Where does the power come from?
.
The way he dances he could hire himself out as a mobile wind turbine
.
Smirk. Fitting penance. What a crock this guy is. Shameless. How can you shift blame when your half-arsed piece of a totally crap policy kills people?
Adrien
11 Feb 10 at 5:58 pm
Adrien;
Coke and cola fired plants are the same thing. LOL.
I should proof read more often but I still think it’s not bad going first time round.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 6:02 pm
Totally OT but I never understood the appeal of Midnight Oil’s music.
Also totally OT but for some reason I am reminded of this weird dude I used to know in high school. He was virtually a neo-Nazi sympathiser yet he was into Midnight Oil and he hung around our group at lunchtime which consisted of 2 native born Aussies, 2 Malaysian born (including myself)and one Pakistani born Paris playing handball with us.
jtfsoon
11 Feb 10 at 6:03 pm
CL admits that the faulty wiring, not the insulation, was a cause.
Why not hang the electrician instead of Garrett?
rog
11 Feb 10 at 6:04 pm
He was virtually a neo-Nazi sympathiser yet he was into Midnight Oil
Yea well take a look.
http://paradigmoz.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/peter-garrett-flag.jpg
He looks remarkably like he was joined at the hip with the neo-nazi , “the skull”.
What he did to that farmer in Queensland (Spencer) was exactly what you would expect from a fascist
JC
11 Feb 10 at 6:10 pm
What trade association was that JC?
And what did that trade association say after meeting with the minister JC?
You dont care, you just want to see a hanging
rog
11 Feb 10 at 6:14 pm
CL admits that the faulty wiring, not the insulation, was a cause.
The faulty wiring can obviously be the result of age, as you well know. If you leave it alone it won’t cause a problem for a time.
However it sounds like the deaths were varied… one expired because of heat exhaustion and another was using a nail punch without a permit.
All these things were explained by the trade association which Lurch chose to ignore all because he was a man on a mission.
The point the electirial assoc. highlighted were those very problems and that the wiring should be first checked.
I thought you would know all this shit.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 6:18 pm
If you mean Ross May “the skull”…
..just another tosspot brain damaged loser from the 60′s and 70′s
Is that your only point of reference? (oh spare me days, you are so thick)
rog
11 Feb 10 at 6:20 pm
I know all this shit, you are talking it.
rog
11 Feb 10 at 6:21 pm
What trade association was that JC?
Electrical trades… see the links up thread, as they will tell you exactly which ones, Rog. The electrical trades association was one group.
And what did that trade association say after meeting with the minister JC?
They actually were NOT invited to the meeting with “ the minister” as the minister expressly didn’t invite them, Rog. See the link up tread
You dont care, you just want to see a hanging
No of course I don’t want to see Lurch hung as I think that punishment would be over egging things. However I would like to see Lurch out of public life forever and finally gone, as he’s a two-bit punk way over his head with fascist leanings as we saw with what he did to Spencer.
And now he’s a cowardly punk that can’t man-up
JC
11 Feb 10 at 6:24 pm
That’s right. Ross May… The skull. They both look like they were separated at birth.
Thanks Rog.
http://i.pbase.com/o4/69/502269/1/59322609.TheSkull.jpg
Pretty little things, aren’t they?
JC
11 Feb 10 at 6:27 pm
The other collateral victim of GarrettGate, of course, was Malcolm Turnbull. His cathartic crossing of the floor was supposed to be a signature moment in parliamentary history.
Nobody noticed. Nobody cared.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 8:39 pm
It just gets worse and worse.
Garrett ‘knew of insulation death risk for months’.
Garrett has to go. In fact the despicable clutz should be disendorsed from the ALP at the next election.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 8:50 pm
The other collateral victim of GarrettGate, of course, was Malcolm Turnbull. His cathartic crossing of the floor was supposed to be a signature moment in parliamentary history.
Nobody noticed. Nobody cared
Malcolm who?
dover_beach
11 Feb 10 at 9:01 pm
So now JC refers to the ETU – the same guys who were behind the highly successful Your Rights At Work Campaign which helped to boot out J Howard
rog
11 Feb 10 at 9:07 pm
The Liberals skewered Turnbull beautifully today. That maudlin loser was looking to make a grandiose statement, but the Libs refused to call divisions. In the end he trudged off into the sunset feeling a spare dick at a wedding.
Infidel Tiger
11 Feb 10 at 9:11 pm
Now it seems that the tin foil was not responsible
rog
11 Feb 10 at 9:12 pm
Rog, your conspicuously link-less quote is from this November 2009 news story.
You dishonest clown.
C.L.
11 Feb 10 at 9:36 pm
What is wrong with you , Rog. What has happened to you.
57 days ago you would have been with the rest of us laying the boot into the green fascist Lurch, yet these days you’re defending him. Is there somehting that’s happened in your life. Has Debbie (homer) got you and did this.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 10:05 pm
Rog on Catallaxy reminds of that joke about the guy who goes bear hunting, sees one, takes aim and misses. The bear walks over and fucks him the arse before letting him go with a warning. Vowing revenge the hunter goes out the next day, sees the bear but misses a second time. Again the bear walks over and fucks him up the arse before letting him go. Furious he goes out for a third day vowing to get the bear but as he’s sneaking through the bushes he feels a tap on his shoulder. Turning around he sees the bear towering over him, and he says “you don’t come hear for the hunting, do you?”
Michael Sutcliffe
11 Feb 10 at 10:12 pm
So now JC refers to the ETU – the same guys who were behind the highly successful Your Rights At Work Campaign which helped to boot out J Howard
Rog, you gotta stop wasting fucking pixels on stupid shit. Don’t do a homer.
No I wasn’t referring to those loons. I was referring to the association that represents the electrical trade guys like self employed sparkies.
I’m starting to get sick of carrying you, Rog. You gotta try and do some heavy lifting yourself soon.
JC
11 Feb 10 at 10:16 pm
JC – spending initiatives that worked:
Christmas Island Detention Centre – if you build it they will come.
Baby bonus – if you pay it they will ….. breed.
They all admit that flinging billions into a niche industry without warning was bound to attract many unqualified installers. They knew the foil was preferred as a quick and easy install as it was readily available and cheap to transport. They knew that installers were using metal fasteners without adequate training, let alone basic safety measures like turning off mains power. By the way it is not exposed wiring that causes the problem, but metal fasteners being jammed into wiring and lots of bodgy home electricians whacking in extra points etc. Bodgy wiring of itself would have seen these houses long gone by now.
Sounds like they took a gamble.
Rudd and Swan are complicit in all this. Poor Garrett just tried to cover for them. As usual, Rudd “here to help” will kindly shove the G man sideways.
Watch that door frame on the way out … ouch that’s gotta hurt!
pete m
11 Feb 10 at 11:38 pm
The ABC does what it always does when a Labor politician is in deep trouble:
Double trouble: Garrett and Joyce under siege.
To wit: muddies the waters by implying there’s an equivalency of scandal – the one (non-Labor) cancelling out the other (Labor).
Joyce made remarks about the repayment of debt.
Garrett’s negligence got four people killed.
To the ABC, that’s Even Stevens.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 1:39 am
Just thought I would stick my nose in here after lurking and seeing my old comrade (in strictly non-commo terminology), the esteemed CL, commenting away like buggery. Good stuff CL.
Can the redoubtable Professor Bunyip be far behind?
Good times.
Pedro the Ignorant
12 Feb 10 at 2:31 am
JC: thanks I put in a comment as suggested http://www.harryrclarke.com/2010/02/08/malcolm-turnbulls-defense-of-the-cprs-better-than-rudds/#comments
Samuel J
12 Feb 10 at 7:03 am
In case it gets deleted.
Sinclair Davidson
12 Feb 10 at 7:16 am
Didn’t Mark Latham predict this kind of thing?
IIRC he wrote an editorial in the Fin about the dangers of a stimulus where lots of money was thrown around very quickly.
It will be interesting to see if now that the problems in the insulation program lead to the press giving attention to the problems in the school building program as Sinclair Davidson has pointed out.
Pedro X
12 Feb 10 at 7:24 am
I miss the bunyip
entropy
12 Feb 10 at 8:41 am
He was funny
tal
12 Feb 10 at 8:46 am
Yes, CL, and the script was followed as well by Jones on Lateline. In their parallel universe, Joyce, a shadow Minister, mixing his millions and billions in a interview is equivalent to Garrett, a Minister, ignoring the 13 or so warmings from state and territory governments, trade associations, unions, etc. which end in the death of four individuals and requiring the back-up check of some 30000 homes, 10000 of which are potential death-traps. Yes, only a fool can fail to see that the scales are even.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 8:59 am
wasn’t the bunyip Imre Saluzinsky?
jtfsoon
12 Feb 10 at 9:04 am
It was rumoured Jason
tal
12 Feb 10 at 9:09 am
G’day Pedro – good to see ya!
Andrew Bolt demolishes Kevin The Torch.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 12:22 pm
how many pedros are there?
i presume that none of the pedros here so far is pedro the lawyer (what happened to him?)
jtfsoon
12 Feb 10 at 12:25 pm
Catallaxy evidently has the Mexican demographic sewn up.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 12:29 pm
No the Bunyip was not Imre he is far too young.
I suspect it was one who has died.
Snoopy Garret does not put in any insulation. He did not buy any of the products.
The people who have died were from firms with little experience in this area.
look at the people in charge there for reason for the deaths. As for consumers people who got services from firms with experience and whose employees were skilled in this area and got testimonials from previous customers are not having problems.
Amusing to see ‘Libertarians’ advocating bigger government here
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
12 Feb 10 at 12:31 pm
CL I thought Pedro was an Italian name
tal
12 Feb 10 at 12:32 pm
No the Bunyip was not Imre he is far too young.
I suspect it was one who has died.
You nutcase debbie. He stopped the blog as he got sick of it. He even said it. Are you divining he died in an accident now?
You freaking goose.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 12:37 pm
Mexican, Italian, whatever.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 12:41 pm
ACTU throws Pete The Torch under the bus.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 12:42 pm
Idiot I didn’t say the blog stopped because he died I said I suspect it was written by some-one who has died.
Go and buy some more Italian bonds
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
12 Feb 10 at 12:58 pm
No Homes it wasn’t Paddy or Frank because Bunyip was an academic.
jtfsoon
12 Feb 10 at 1:00 pm
he mixed up Elizabeth Reid and Ann Summers.
He thought Menzies had reduced trade barriers on the basis he got rid of export controls but ignored the ERP.
He admired Hayden for his intellect over Hawke and hated Keating.
Sounds like someone to me
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
12 Feb 10 at 1:02 pm
hmm I didn’t know that, I didn’t follow him that regularly.
that does sound like Paddy. there’s someone I can ask who could clear this up if I’m not sworn to confidence.
jtfsoon
12 Feb 10 at 1:07 pm
Blair, who knew Paddy, already addressed the rumour that it was Paddy and said definitively <a href="http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/he_was_the_peoples_bunyip/"it wasn't.
daddy dave
12 Feb 10 at 1:11 pm
whoops link
daddy dave
12 Feb 10 at 1:11 pm
Huh. I just noticed something. I realised that the one theory he didn’t knock on the head was Saluszinksy; even though the comment he linked to specifically mentioned Saluszinsky as a possibility. Why rule out all the others but stay mum on that one?
daddy dave
12 Feb 10 at 1:15 pm
I did actually ask Imre once many years ago whether he was Bunyip. He denied it of course but that isn’t indicative of anything.
jtfsoon
12 Feb 10 at 1:17 pm
That’s your catalogue of Bunyip’s errors, Homer? (Allowing for the possibility that Hayden was indeed smarter than Hawke and he was certainly smarter than Keating – a former council clerk).
Your catalogue of errors is lengthier than Poor Fellow, My Country.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 1:30 pm
CL
Not so much an error in the last case but relevant because Paddy started off as Bill Hayden’s economic advisor.
jtfsoon
12 Feb 10 at 1:34 pm
Tony Jones on Lateline last night also rolled out the ABC’s traditional equivalency strategy to save the bacon of an embattled Labor figure. read the transcript and be astonished at the spiteful anger and badgering from Jones after a bad day for the government. Four human beings dead and he’s going beserk about Barnaby Joyce.
Not one thing Joyce has said comes within cooee of the Garrett scandal. In fact, by admitting the Rudd government doesn’t bother crossing t’s and dotting i’s with multi-bllion dollar programs, Joyce’s opposite number Lindsey Tanner completely lost the argument about competence in the finance ministry.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 1:42 pm
Another business group dumps Rudd:
Retailers group blames Rudd’s ‘enviro politics’ for roofing insulation deaths.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 1:54 pm
Snoopy Garret does not put in any insulation. He did not buy any of the products.
The government financed the purchase of the insulation, Homer. How many workers were dying installing insulation before this government-financed program per chance?
The people who have died were from firms with little experience in this area.
Yes, who only entered this market because of a government-financed program.
look at the people in charge there for reason for the deaths. As for consumers people who got services from firms with experience and whose employees were skilled in this area and got testimonials from previous customers are not having problems.
Yes, those in charge may be complicit, but that hardly absolves Garrett of any responsibility, especially where the risks were made obvious to him by his own department, by state and territory governments, by trade associations, and by unions.
Amusing to see ‘Libertarians’ advocating bigger government here
No one here is advocating for bigger government, Homer, since everyone here had criticised the program before the emergence of these deaths. You, however, have supported the program and yet absolved the Minister of any responsibility from what has since followed.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 1:58 pm
Tony Jones will be desperate to get back in the Government’s good books after exposing Rudd to those rabid kids on Q&A.
Infidel Tiger
12 Feb 10 at 2:00 pm
Snoopy,
You clowns are criticising Garret for what?
He doesn’t go out and buy anything from anyone. what about caveat emptor you blokes are supposed to believe in?
Why is Garret responsible for any deaths. He isn’t employing anyone. He isn’t responsible for his employees not having the skill to implement said insulation.
Perhaps you do not understand your own argument but you are arguing for bigger government.
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
12 Feb 10 at 2:10 pm
In the Vanstone/Rau case, lefties like Homer called incessantly for Amanda’s dismissal because a private company had mismanaged the situation.
But four people being killed and thousands of homes turned into death traps?
Hey, no big deal!
You hypocritical hack, Homer.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 2:16 pm
CL you are a goose.
In this case people are buying insulation themselves.
They are buying it not Garret.
Ever heard of Caveat Emptor at all?
the four deaths were the result of companies putting people who ere unskilled in this area.
Has id Garret responsible in this?
Government policy was merely giving people a rebate on putting insulation into their home.
It is quite noticeable CL never addresses these questions because he can’t!
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
12 Feb 10 at 2:22 pm
“Has id Garret responsible in this?”
No, we blame your teachers.
“Government policy was merely giving people a rebate on putting insulation into their home.”
Err no, idiot. That would require them to buy the insulation and apply for cashback.
Semi Regular Libertarian
12 Feb 10 at 2:29 pm
“Has id Garret responsible in this?”
Surely this will live on just like “Et tu Brute” etc…
Semi Regular Libertarian
12 Feb 10 at 2:31 pm
Has id Garret responsible in this?
Yes, Debbie, he id responsible in dis.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 2:44 pm
He doesn’t go out and buy anything from anyone. what about caveat emptor you blokes are supposed to believe in?
Why is Garret responsible for any deaths. He isn’t employing anyone. He isn’t responsible for his employees not having the skill to implement said insulation.
Yes, he does. The scheme since July 2009 involved the home-owner having to, in most cases, not part with any of their own money. The contractor was in fact paid in part or in full by the government. If the firms weren’t up to scratch then the government themselves should never have allowed them to receive accreditation, if there was any accreditation at all, and thus they wouldn’t have been available to the end consumer or had government funds made available to them.
Perhaps you do not understand your own argument but you are arguing for bigger government.
Or, perhaps, you have no idea of what you’re talking about.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 2:44 pm
The ABC’s The World Today has also wheeled out the equivalency distraction strategy for its beloved Labor Party. Read the lengthy intro and the outro. This is news coverage concerning the deaths of four people.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 3:17 pm
Snoopy in all cases it is the CONSUMER that chooses the installer.
They government only paid all the money if it as below a set amount.
I see you believe the consumer has to do no work at all.
Yes I agree you have no idea of what you are talking about.
you are arguing for bigger Government hahah
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
12 Feb 10 at 3:26 pm
Homer supported the absolute necessity of GroceryWatch and FuelWatch so consumers would be guided to make the best possible decisions.
Now: “I see you believe the consumer has to do no work at all.”
You hypocritical oaf.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 3:30 pm
Snoopy in all cases it is the CONSUMER that chooses the installer.
In many instances, the consumer will have found the installer by searching the government website related to this program.
http://www.environment.gov.au/energyefficiency/insulation/
If you notice the important safety messages now appearing on this website, the Federal government is taking this more seriously then it previously has.
They government only paid all the money if it as below a set amount.
No, the government will pay the first $1200 of every insulation installation. This is down from $1600 last year.
I see you believe the consumer has to do no work at all.
Apart from organising at least two quotes and then booking the best deal of the two, s/he had to do nothing else. I know this because I was one of them.
Yes I agree you have no idea of what you are talking about.
you are arguing for bigger Government hahah
What a clown.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 3:36 pm
Yes, caveat emptor is suddenly all the rage with Homer.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 3:38 pm
[...] for his resignation, I can’t help thinking that his days are numbered. After all, when both Catallaxy and Larvatus Prodeo run posts which canvass the possibility of his resignation, one would have to [...]
skepticlawyer » Celebrity politicians – are they worth it?
12 Feb 10 at 4:10 pm
yes Snoopy just who does sign the contract.
I would get more than two quotes although since you are walking your dog all the time you couldn’t.
tell me if something happens in the warranty period do you or Garret ring the company up?
Yes all the companies on the list were ratified. How you think they got accreditation which was in fact higher than normal practice?
Oh I see from the government paying for all the work it is now only if it is lower than $1200.
Oh dear CL doesn’t understand how giving the consumer information actually makes caveat emptor stronger but then he never did understand capitalism
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
12 Feb 10 at 4:31 pm
Wow golly gee Homer, who’d thunk it would attract shonks if the homeowner didn’t need to spend the money themselves and then apply for a rebate. There have been instances of people turning up even after they have been told their services were not required.
Anyone with a brain can tell why if there was a rebate not free insulation that this wouldn’t happen. Can you?
Semi Regular Libertarian
12 Feb 10 at 4:35 pm
yes Snoopy just who does sign the contract.
Who pays the contract, Homer? The government.
I would get more than two quotes although since you are walking your dog all the time you couldn’t.
Why would anyone get more than two quotes when the first two are within $300 of each and the second won’t cost you anything.
tell me if something happens in the warranty period do you or Garret ring the company up?
You clown, as if that was of any consequence.
Oh I see from the government paying for all the work it is now only if it is lower than $1200.
No, the government paid the installer directly for the first $1600, now $1200, via direct debit with the customer having to pay the balance, if anything at all.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 4:54 pm
and then apply for a rebate
This was only the case before 1 July 2009, after this, all you did was sign a contract with the installer which s/he promptly sent to the government in order to be paid. In other words, since 1 July 2009, installers were being paid directly by the government.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 4:58 pm
So you didn’t sign the contract Garret did.
Oh dear you don’t know about the warranty. Yes a warranty is of some consequence. It tells you something about the company but you must have been walking the dog and comparing all those petrol prices.
Oh you might find at least three quotes tells you something about the firms involved. you even get to find out what their warranty is!!
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
12 Feb 10 at 5:02 pm
So again: Homer backed FuelWatch on the grounds that Big Gubbermint had to help people buy petrol.
Now he’s blaming consumers for Peter Garrett ignoring 13 warnings from industry specialists and getting four people killed.
Truly hilarious hypocrisy from our resident ALP hack.
But you know what? It doesn’t matter politically. Labor’s line of attack on Joyce has been wrecked and its line of attack on Abbott on IR is wrecked. This is a government whose finance minister admits that he doesn’t bother crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s and whose prime minister backs a minister who got four workers killed.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 5:08 pm
Excellent, excellent point, CL.
Debbie is the biggest hypocrite we’ve ever seen. He doesn’t even bother covering up any more.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 5:12 pm
you two idiots do not have a clue of how the capitalist system works.
The more information you give consumers them better informed choice they make.
Do you want all consumers to be like Snoopy and not even know the basics about what they are buying?
Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop
12 Feb 10 at 5:15 pm
So you didn’t sign the contract Garret did.
Homer, you dill, the contract was a pro-forma work order provided by the government, which the installer then submitted to the government once the installer and the customer had signed it. I do note on the contract that signing the work order also released the government from any legal liability surrounding the installation of the insulation.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 5:16 pm
you two idiots do not have a clue of how the capitalist system works.
Says the resident nazi economist who thinks he does and proves each day he knows less and less about economics compared to the previous day.
The more information you give consumers them better informed choice they make.
Debbie, the only two people in the world supporting Fuel and Vegetable watch were you and the dude from Core Economics who hasn’t seen a government program he doesn’t like. Even Rudd gave up the ghost on those two appalling suggestions leaving you two alone in the intellectual wilderness.
Yet here you are telling us about caveat emptor without a fucking clue what it means as it’s not Eatwoodlish while directly contradicting your own pathetic unintelligent support of the watches.
You hypocritical goof ball. You can’t even cover up your own tracks. You cite caveat emptor for pink bats but need the government’s hand to buy a tank of gas and liter of milk. You idiot.
Do you want all consumers to be like Snoopy and not even know the basics about what they are buying?
Debbie, all the “Watches” in the world couldn’t help you.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 5:25 pm
Do you want all consumers to be like Snoopy and not even know the basics about what they are buying?
I missed that. I did my background study of the appropriate installation for my house, Homer; no need to worry.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 5:31 pm
Shorter catallaxy =
we need more regulation!, no less regulation!,
we need bigger government! no,less government!
we need a free market! no, we want the govt to run the market!
total sum = zero
rog
12 Feb 10 at 6:02 pm
“I believe in government deregulation and private property title. Those that believe that strong govts are better keepers of the public should consider the Chinese/Russian proposal for floating nuclear power stations and remember the Cold War, Gulags, Cultural Revolution, the Lada and the Zil.”
- Rog, ,a href=”http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/archives/001298.html”>April 7, 2006.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 6:05 pm
“I believe in government deregulation and private property title. Those that believe that strong govts are better keepers of the public should consider the Chinese/Russian proposal for floating nuclear power stations and remember the Cold War, Gulags, Cultural Revolution, the Lada and the Zil.”
- Rog, April 7, 2006.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 6:06 pm
Garrett was actually running DeathWatch.
The scheme allowed consumers to go to their computers, click on Google news and see if anyone nearby had been electrocuted or had their houses turned into live death traps.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 6:10 pm
Rog;
As usual I have to help you again. The Catallaxy crew didn’t want a freaking pink bat stimulus at all. Zero stimulus. You get that now. nada.
Having had a pink bat stimulus we’re saying Lurch fucked it up.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 6:10 pm
Rudd, August 2007:
Rudd ‘sickened‘ at foreign workers’ deaths.
Rudd today:
He cited Dietrich Bonhoeffer and slammed heartless “neo-liberals” a year ago.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 6:31 pm
Here is JC portraying another irony (again? just how many more are there? is there no end to this perfidious dysfunction?)
In keeping with most totalitarian regimes JC has elected himself spokesperson and then advised everybody what they think.
In italian it is “Merda taurorum animas conturbit”
rog
12 Feb 10 at 6:52 pm
Italian?
Infidel Tiger
12 Feb 10 at 6:59 pm
Latin
rog
12 Feb 10 at 7:03 pm
Latin is italian, it’s just that they cant spell
rog
12 Feb 10 at 7:04 pm
Cave ab homine unius libri.
C.L.
12 Feb 10 at 7:06 pm
In keeping with most totalitarian regimes JC has elected himself spokesperson and then advised everybody what they think.
No Rog. I haven’t elected myself spokesman for any group. I’m simply making what i think is a fair assessment what people here would think.. This being a neo-libertarian site.
You reach quite odd conclusions at times. Really odd.
And enough with the latin, Rog. You don’t know any Latin and you don’t know what the fuck it means. If you must, use Eastwoodlish but not Latin.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 7:12 pm
I don’t know what the problem is you guys have with Fuelwatch. We’ve got it in Perth, it’s a great system.
sdfc
12 Feb 10 at 7:24 pm
It was so good noted , free market supporter and philosopher, Kevin Rudd ditched it as a key campaign promise.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 7:26 pm
Yeah I know JC, what a gutless turd. The media got caught up in the scare campaign. I don’t know what supporters can object to, apart from the regulation of course. How can improving information flow in the market be a negative?
sdfc
12 Feb 10 at 7:43 pm
What was negative was the way he was setting it up, requiring, or demanding people participate and then setting rules when they could changes their prices.
Information flow is very important, however we don’t need the government to perform such tasks. If people think it’s important to save 50 cents of a tank of fuel they can set up their own fuelwatch, which is actually being provided now in other states.
See our earlier debates.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 7:48 pm
The search costs make your suggestion a little inefficient. Stations are free to choose there price. To allow changes during the day would make the service obsolete.
Have you had a debate with someone who actually uses it?
sdfc
12 Feb 10 at 7:56 pm
“their price” Shit I hate that.
sdfc
12 Feb 10 at 7:58 pm
Can’t recall who was involved in the debate except Homer, who i vividly recall was defending it and therefore is on you side of the fence.
The conclusion reached was that it was a waste of time and that would in fact cause inefficiencies seeing stations would be locked up for 24 hours.
Why would someone that uses it provide any better advice? I’m sure there are a few users, however that doesn’t make the case.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 8:08 pm
It makes sense because the more users, the greater the downward pressure on prices.
sdfc
12 Feb 10 at 8:11 pm
I disagree. You don’t want to be placing undue pressure on prices one way or another. The cheapest price is not necessarily always he best thing for numerous reasons if the government is fucking around with a market. Believe it or even something as basic as petrol is not a fungible commodity between stations and producers.
You want station owners to be making a profit in the free market and not fucked over by governments dictating when they can move prices.
Furthermore the effect on prices by imposing 24 restrictions would be to stifle downwards movement as stations would be loathe to go low knowing that they could be caught on bad price decision and not selling at optimal levels.
Government imposed shit like that is bad.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 8:35 pm
So you don’t think increasing information flow is beneficial to a market. Suppliers are free to set their price, no one is forcing anyone to sell below cost.
sdfc
12 Feb 10 at 8:40 pm
I don’t think the government should be involved in markets through ratty schemes like fuelwatch .. period.
If there are enough people wanting that sort of info an information post would arise as it has in other markets.
Suppliers under the Dudd scheme weren’t free to set their prices as they wouldn’t be allowed to change for 24 hours.
Prices are extremely important and should be left the fuck alone by governments, especially one like Rudd’s which knows fuck all about markets and it’s leadership even questions the viability of markets.
I’m not in favor of downward moving prices or upward moving prices. I only want free prices not influenced by government intervention in any way.
JC
12 Feb 10 at 8:48 pm
You just cant stop telling others what to think and do, can you JC?
Some weird sort of “libertarian”
rog
12 Feb 10 at 9:09 pm
Then you’re less concerned with market efficiency than with keeping the government out of the market at all costs. And you say you’re not ideological.
sdfc
12 Feb 10 at 9:10 pm
Cave canem, te necet lingendo
rog
12 Feb 10 at 9:11 pm
JC hates government involvement in “free trade”, excepting insulation
rog
12 Feb 10 at 9:13 pm
[...] When I wrote that Peter Garrett’s position was untenable back on 11 February, I had assumed that he would have departed by now. [...]
Garrett not being sacked? at Catallaxy Files
24 Feb 10 at 7:47 am
rog those of us who want substantial deregulation of trades and professions do accept that some regulation is appropriate where there are significant safety issues.
Especially when a government is shoveling billions into a field where there were obvious risks from unqualified people.
ken n
24 Feb 10 at 8:28 am