It’s going to be a long year. So far it looks like the Liberals will run on law and order. Okay. Law and order is a problem; the number of Indian-bashings is a big problem and the police chief doesn’t seem to be taking the problem seriously, nor has the government. But you’d think the liberals might also want to mention Myki and public transport and the need to an independent anti-corruption commission and an inquiry into why Melbourne is running out of water and so on. Maybe we’re still going to hear about those issues.
But I’m just wondering what the state government is going to run on. Based on the weekend by-election it looks like they’re going to run on the Kennett government legacy. I got a flyer today reminding me that the local hospital got shut down by Kennett in 1996. So it did. But Brumby, and before him Bracks, has had ten years to re-open that hospital. Before that I got a flyer telling that opposition leader Ted Baillieu’s real estate agency sold a local school in the late 1990s. What an outrage that was. Perhaps; I can’t recall. I do recall, however, the Bracks government promising a road that they then privatised – is that the same as closing a school?
Basically it seems neither side have any ideas or policies – maybe that is a good thing. At this rate they should vote themselves a pay-cut, go home and stop annoying the electorate.
Running on law and order is a sure sign of a conservative party that lacks ideas. They’d do much better to run on transparency, service delivery, anti-corruption, and point out the many failures of Victoria’s public sector, hospitals, etc.
On the other hand, the ALP holds a huge majority. Barring any scandals involving Brumby and a hamster, the ALP should almost certainly win.
THR
11 Feb 10 at 10:41 pm
I got a flyer today reminding me that the local hospital got shut down by Kennett in 1996. So it did.
OMG you’re joking. That is lame.
If the libs can present themselves as pragmatic, not-afraid-of-the-PC-brigade reformers, they might have a future. Dams, bush clearing to defend against bushfires, more cops, broken-windows policing philosophy, and a promise not to do anything radical to the schools and hospitals (maybe tell them they’ll keep everything the same but run it better); and bob’s your uncle.
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Running on law and order is a sure sign of a conservative party that lacks ideas.
Sometimes, THR, but not necessarily.
In this case, it’s warranted, since Victoria is becoming increasingly lawless.
daddy dave
11 Feb 10 at 11:19 pm
In this case, it’s warranted, since Victoria is becoming increasingly lawless.
According to the media, yes. But the police have already been given more powers. Hulls has been vocal in criticising magistrate’s (many of whom deserve more than mere criticism). In a sense, the ALP already own the law and order stuff. In any case, nobody is going to view Ted Balieu as some kind of new sherrif in town.
As for Kennett – I think it unwise to dismiss the legacy of the Kennett era. The states are there to deliver services. Whatever good things he is supposed to have done, Kennett crippled the states’ ability to deliver those services, and it’ll probably take until the 2014 before that legacy begins to be forgotten.
THR
11 Feb 10 at 11:27 pm
I think it unwise to dismiss the legacy of the Kennett era
If Victorians are stupid enough to vote againt Jeff Kennett, all these years later, then they deserve the government they get.
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The states are there to deliver services.
“administer” services perhaps rather than “deliver?”
It is a more general expression, because it implies they can privatise and outsource where they deem it to be sensible, but still have responsibility.
daddy dave
11 Feb 10 at 11:31 pm
You can’t privatise everything. Not easily, anyway. Various state-run services are legislated in such a way that some responsibilities sit with the State. This limits the extent to which things can be outsourced. Outsourcing of services hasn’t done much for Victoria in any case.
THR
11 Feb 10 at 11:34 pm
But the police have already been given more powers.
Exactly. Increasing police powers has not had any demonstrable benefit, so the “law and order” auction is really about selling out our liberties for nothing. We could abolish double jeopardy, allow secret trials, introduce “pre-crimes” and torture confessions out of suspects, and we’d still have a high crime rate. Only having more cops on the street and punishing offenders with greater severity, or allowing people to carry concealed weapons to defend themselves, will deter criminals.
Michael Fisk
11 Feb 10 at 11:39 pm
Sinclair
As I read the data, the number of Indian-bashings is not outside statistical expectations. But you are correct it is nevertheless a “big problem”. I am highly suspicious of the role being played by Guatam Gupta, an Executive Director of the Federation of Indian Students of Australia Inc (FISA). Check every story written about, or broadcast on the Indian-bashings, and they will all quote Gupta. Funny thing is, Gupta is not even a student, but a grown up audiologist. Now go back and read the media reports and compare comments by Ted Baillieu and Guatam Gupta. They are singing from the same talking points sheet. They never fail to incorpoate a favourable mention of something the other has said.
The similarity of their talking points when it comes to Brumby and Overlans is eerie. Gupta is known to have been involved with the Liberal Party for several years, but I am not sure how official Gupta’s relationship with Baillieu goes. For example, is he on the payroll? Any public event Gupta organizes, Baillieu is there.
More tellingly is that revelations of recent Indian attacks not being perpetrated by whites has seen Gupta drop the “racist attacks” shtick in favor of ‘something must be done about the violence in our community’.
Me thinks Gupta has been inflaming this “Indians Attacked” panic as service to Baillieu to whip up a law and order election
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 2:58 am
Peter – that is just rubbish. I don’t care who is bashing Indians, or whether Indians are racist in India, or whether the Indian Student Association is headed by an audiologist or even an accountant. Or whatever other bullshit explanation we have heard in recent times.
Crimes are being committed.
The government and the police chief have no sense of urgency regarding those crimes.
Sinclair Davidson
12 Feb 10 at 6:39 am
Sinclair
Ah, what is rubbish? And crimes are always being committed.
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 6:46 am
Indeed. Yet it doesn’t seem that the police* and legal system are always doing anything about it.
* mind you, we need to differentiate between the men and women doing in the grunt work and the army of senior management and civilian advisors who earn the big bucks while making no contribution to a safe and law-abiding community.
Sinclair Davidson
12 Feb 10 at 6:56 am
Sinclair
But how much of that “seeming” indifference is real versus manufactured as I suggest?
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 7:00 am
Peter – that’s the rubbish bit I refered to earlier. Last year I had a post entitled ‘got off your bum’ where I commented on Simon Overland’s attitiude towards this and quoted an op-ed of his published in the Herald Sun.
Sinclair Davidson
12 Feb 10 at 7:14 am
“Maybe we’re still going to hear about those issues.”
Or maybe we won’t — if they promise to fix public transport and win the election, then in two years from now, when nothing is changed, they’ll be wondering how to keep their promises.
conrad
12 Feb 10 at 7:33 am
“As I read the data, the number of Indian-bashings is not outside statistical expectations.”
Neither is the number of grandmothers (less in fact), so in case people start targeting them a bit more, I guess we shouldn’t worry.
conrad
12 Feb 10 at 7:34 am
I don’t understand. Are you arguing the police and the courts are doing nothing about crime in Melbourne generally, or only crime involving Indians?
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 7:43 am
conrad
Well then why this obsession only with Indians?
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 7:44 am
In general; Indian-bashing is the symptom of a deeper problem.
Sinclair Davidson
12 Feb 10 at 7:46 am
Yeah. Some people are violent and assault other people. We’ve all known this for a pretty long time.
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 7:48 am
We’ve also known how to deal with that problem for a long time too.
Sinclair Davidson
12 Feb 10 at 7:54 am
How? Sorry Sinclair, maybe I’m a bit groggy this morning, but I’m not grasping your substantive point, though I do detect you do indeed have one!
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 7:57 am
Peter’s point is: (excuse my paraphrase)
“crime is crime. We should take it seriously no matter who is the victim. Let’s stop focusing on a handful of assaults involving a particular ethnic group, even though it has caused a media stir.”
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This is not my opinion, I’m just attempting a fair summary of Peter’s postion, to cut through the ice.
daddy dave
12 Feb 10 at 9:13 am
dd
That’s close enough, except if there were evidence of unusual spike in victims of a particular ethnicity or knowledge of actual organized racist groups, then that becomes an entirely different matter. But at the moment, I am not persuaded there is anything out of the ordinary among Indians, and I am mighty suspicious of Mr. Gupta’s media ubiquity.
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 9:18 am
That is I don’t think racist crime is just the same as ordinary old crime. I think racist motivations make the crime worse.
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 9:19 am
I think racist motivations make the crime worse.
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I don’t. The whole “hate crime” thing diminishes the suffering of the victims of boring old “regular crime.”
daddy dave
12 Feb 10 at 9:25 am
I don’t think it matters for what reason you’re bashed if you didn’t start it.
sinker’s point is that there is a perception of increased crime. who cares if this gupta fellow is a Liberal lackey?
what’s wrong with a law and order campaign if there are perceived law and order issues?
jtfsoon
12 Feb 10 at 9:33 am
“Well then why this obsession only with Indians?”
Because they complain about it? Because they’re a visible minority? it’s new? and probably because their government actually cares enough that they’re willing to try and do something about it. I’m sure lots of non-Indians living in some of the crappy areas are pretty pleased about the publicity if the police have to do something (I would be).
Incidentally, lots of groups have been victimized over time, and we’ve had lots of campaigns to try and reduce it (often quite successful). For example, Australia is a massively tolerant place towards gays and lesbians compared to most places in the world and compared to 30 years ago, and that’s because of ongoing awareness (which the gay community has even made fun via the mardi gras and other such events). Other examples would included disabled people, who are treated like circus freaks in some places, violence against women (cf. Australia circa 1950), young male violence towards each other (just look at the current alcohol campaign), etc .
Also this idea of “racist vs. non-racist crime” is pretty hollow to me. There’s always going to be some racism, and no-one is exactly going to give you a card after beating you up saying why they did it.
conrad
12 Feb 10 at 10:14 am
conrad
I give up. It is like banging one’s head against a brick wall. So many of you people will never get over your bigoted preconceptions, no matter how much data is thrown at you.
Conrad, the incidences that have received the greatest publicity have been either Indians murdering then burning other Indians, Indians pouring petrol over themselves before alerting the media with the blatant lie that the petrol was poured by a gang of ‘white racist thugs’, and other more minor incidents have either not been solved or reported by the victims to have been gangs of mixed-race youth, WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT IN MULTIETHNIC WESTERN SUBURBAN MELBOURNE.
So, I am afraid that you will not be given a free pass to so lazily dismiss claims of “racist vs. non-racist” crime. In fact, if you intend to continue with your current attitude, despite it being contradicted by the evidence, then you my friend are precisely the type of bigot we need to flush out and have one more go at educating.
I really am getting sick to death of the laziness of many of those who trawl the blogs bragging to everybody how anti-racist they just because they rant against “white, racist thugs”.
Conrad, please learn that Australia is one of the most multiracial places on earth. And the western suburbs of Melbourne not only reflect that, but are violent. Please stop thinking you are some hero for piping up against “racist violence” when the only “race” you are dog-whistling about is white people.
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 10:47 am
jtfsoon
The possible connection is that Gupta riles the media up about racist attacks on Indians, it becomes front page news right across Australia, and in India. Suddenly Brumby is being portrayed as not only soft on crime, but a racist to boot. And with Baillieu repeating Gupta’s talking point of same all along.
Result? Victorian public becomes convinced by all the confected hoo-haa that Brumby really is asleep at the wheel, while Victorian ‘law and order’ is out of control. I’m sure you connect the remaining dots.
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 10:52 am
Peter (or is that JG?),
I don’t consider racism all-or-nothing, and hence I see this idea of somehow trying to prove that the attacks are entirely racially motivated or have zero racial context as a false dichotomy. It’s like trying to prove the temperature tomorrow will be hot or cold — it’s the degree that matters except in the extreme. I also think these statistical comparisons are basically an excuse for blaming the victim. In addition, even if I did believe that, it’s almost impossible to know whether there is a greater statistical tendency, because you don’t the base rate.
Incidentally, I also never said whites-on-Indians. There’s no doubt complex racial problems across groups, some of which surface from time to time, and some of which surface violently. Alternatively, the fact we have even bothered to even think of abusive terms like curry muncher shows there is some racism, which there always is. I personally, for example, think that Indians and whites probably get along far better than East Asians and Whites, and East Asians and Indians probably get along better than either of the other comparisons, despite their cultural dislike India and China have for each other.
So, basically, I agree with Jason, that all the police are doing as identifying a problem (which gets extra publicity due to the Indian media), and targeting it, much in the same way as the have previously for other groups that I mentioned. I really don’t see what the problem with that is — indeed, it’s something they should be doing.
conrad
12 Feb 10 at 11:03 am
conrad – good spot. I was wondering.
Sinclair Davidson
12 Feb 10 at 11:08 am
Please stop thinking you are some hero for piping up against “racist violence” when the only “race” you are dog-whistling about is white people.
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hang on… I think that’s a complete misrepresentation of Conrad’s position. Maybe you’ve got two internet windows open and got him confused with someone else on a different blog. Plus, aren’t you the guy who condemned racially motivated crime as being worse than other kinds of crime?
daddy dave
12 Feb 10 at 11:10 am
Peter (or is that JG?)
I don’t think so.
dover_beach
12 Feb 10 at 11:23 am
Conrad
OK, you’ve expressed your point with more nuance, which brings us pretty much on the same page. I have no dog in Victorian state electoral spats, but I think we all should be concerned at any hint of politicians and community leaders on the make, whipping up an issue as volatile as race for electoral gain.
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 11:31 am
daddy dave
That post was probably more excited by the opportunities for hyperbole than might have been really necessary.
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 11:32 am
PP decoded: “sorry Conrad”.
daddy dave
12 Feb 10 at 12:00 pm
Running on law and order is a sure sign of a conservative party that lacks ideas. They’d do much better to run on transparency, service delivery, anti-corruption, and point out the many failures of Victoria’s public sector, hospitals, etc.
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To a certain extent you’re right. Conservatives harping law and order is pretty cliché. But this time it’s inevitable and will be a winner. I expect Brumby to compete with his own L&O package.
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Considering that this kind of behaviour is de rigueur with a considerable section of young lads these days, considering that the creeps who perpetrated this nastiness got ‘punished’ with counselling, I reckon people will vote for a party that says they’ll introduce stricter penalties for violent crimes.
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That said it’s not as bad as it used to be. Two years ago I saw serious cases of crazy violence every week. Now I don’t. But that’s only ’cause the thugs are being purged from the CBD. They’re still live in the ‘burbs. And they need the boot post haste. They suck.
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I never thought I’d say that. Must be getting old and grumpy.
Adrien
12 Feb 10 at 12:13 pm
As i keep saying, bring back public whipping.
jtfsoon
12 Feb 10 at 12:15 pm
Put ‘em in stocks I say
Adrien when you start telling kids to got a job, a hair cut and pull up your pants, then you’re old and grumpy
tal
12 Feb 10 at 12:23 pm
I expect Brumby to compete with his own L&O package.
It’s a little concerning that there’s this bipartisan position that Melbourne is in the grip of a crime wave. Apart from the attacks against Indians, and the occasional bit of drunken violence, there’s little to say that Melbourne isn’t perfectly safe. So law and order in this instance is unlikely to mean a change to sentencing (magistrates will continue to run their own show, whatever the pollies do) or additional police (an extra van crew per metro station per shift would add up to billions of additional costs). It’s more likely to simply mean further police powers (they can already stop and search anybody they feel like, no warrant or explanation required) and additional surveillance.
THR
12 Feb 10 at 12:25 pm
Pull up your pants – yeah. This wearing the waistline around your hips thing drives me nuts. I’m really sick of looking at the grungy undies of 17 year olds.
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Hair’s their business.
Adrien
12 Feb 10 at 12:27 pm
Apart from the attacks against Indians, and the occasional bit of drunken violence, there’s little to say that Melbourne isn’t perfectly safe.
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Dude it ain’t occasional. And drink isn’t responsible. I have seen truly insane shit. There’s a bunch of kids who simply lack compunction. They go out and a regular part of the night is to roll someone to fund the rest of the evening.
Adrien
12 Feb 10 at 12:31 pm
Adrien
I don’t know about Melbourne, but Sydney is in the midst of an Ice epidemic. Being surrounded by Ice Freaks with 34 Tequilas does not make for a pleasant evening out on the town.
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 12:39 pm
Adrien, Melbourne is basically safe, both in the CBD and the suburbs. There may be some age groups (perhaps males 15-25) who are at increased risk of being victims of offenders. No doubt there are braindead thugs like the ones you mention. But they are not going to be stopped by a law and order campaign by either party.
THR
12 Feb 10 at 12:43 pm
But they are not going to be stopped by a law and order campaign by either party.
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How do you do effective policing? What works? What lowers overall crime rates?
These are empirical questions. It is possible to find answers. A common view is the “fatalistic” view, that criminals will be criminals, and there’s no point doing anything about it. some fatalistic ideas:
* police the CBD and they’ll only move to the burbs
* shut down one drug dealer and another will take his place
etc.
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However, it has been shown – empirically – that this view is wrong. An alternative philosophy known as “Broken windows” policing works. I’d love to see an Australian political party take it on. It could be Labor or Liberal. A great policy that’s just out there, up for grabs for the first taker.
daddy dave
12 Feb 10 at 1:03 pm
“* shut down one drug dealer and another will take his place
etc.”
It’s not fatalistic it is true. Drug laws don’t work. They are counterproductive unless you choose to have extreme penalties, which at times do not work.
Semi Regular Libertarian
12 Feb 10 at 1:16 pm
But they are not going to be stopped by a law and order campaign by either party.
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Really? Why?
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Melbourne is basically safe
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Violent crime rose by almost 10% last financial year. My experiences include but are not limited to:
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- Watching a full scale riot break out in Southgate because somebody couldn’t get into a nightclub
- A man who was already unconscious being continually kicked by someone who was out of his mind with rage
- Five lads assaulting two others with chairs from a nearby cafe cause the pair didn’t have a cigarette for one of them
- Not to mention the three times I was assaulted in the summer of 08.
Adrien
12 Feb 10 at 1:45 pm
jeez Adrien
*three* times?
I’ve never been assaulted once. I live near the CBD now but when I was going to uni I took the Western suburbs train line to Redfern and walked from there to uni virtually 5 days a week for years.
jtfsoon
12 Feb 10 at 1:58 pm
Adrien you were assaulted three times in one summer? Wow, mate, that’s awful. How old are you, and how badly were you assaulted?
Peter Patton
12 Feb 10 at 2:13 pm