Open Forum February 13, 2010 at Catallaxy Files

Open Forum February 13, 2010

983 comments

Written by Sinclair Davidson

February 13th, 2010 at 9:29 am

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983 Responses to 'Open Forum February 13, 2010'

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Attention Windows 7 users: this does sound like a pretty bad idea which is about to be forced onto to you by the otherwise nice Mr Gates:

http://www.redferret.net/?p=18686

steve from brisbane

13 Feb 10 at 9:49 am
First!

Adrien

13 Feb 10 at 10:05 am
First?

[too slow - second. Sinc ]

Adrien

13 Feb 10 at 10:06 am
Wall Street 2 is due for release in April. The trailer doesn’t give much away.

From the original:

“Jesus, can’t make a buck in this market, country’s going to hell faster than when that sonofabitch Roosevelt was around… too much cheap money sloshing around the world. The biggest mistake we ever made was letting Nixon get off the gold standard.”
- Lou Mannheim

Capitalist Piggy

13 Feb 10 at 11:32 am
Those damned faculty meetings:

A biology professor is in custody in connection with three fatal shootings on the University of Alabama in Huntsville campus Friday afternoon, according to a UAH official.

http://blog.al.com/breaking/2010/02/biology_professor_accused_in_u.html

The rumour is that she was denied tenure.

dover_beach

13 Feb 10 at 11:51 am
Damn you Brizvegas Steve – you cheated me!

Adrien

13 Feb 10 at 12:03 pm
The biggest mistake we ever made was letting Nixon get off the gold standard.”

Oh no. This will send the gold crazies into a tizzy.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 12:21 pm
Yes Adrien, I fooled you by getting stuck in moderation for some reason.

Did anyone see Better Homes and Gardens last night and the segment on The Lodge? For a place that has been criticised for decades as being a bit of a dump, it looked like pretty fancy digs to me!

steve from brisbane

13 Feb 10 at 12:34 pm
These dirtbags just won’t stop. They’re fucking dishonest to the very end. It’s kind of creepy and very unsettling seeing these political advocates posing as scientists in action.

Within hours of the launch of an independent panel to investigate claims that climate scientists covered up flawed data on temperature rises, one member has been forced to resign after sceptics questioned his impartiality.

They really are like the Borg. Kill one and the rest just keep on coming like they’re programed to do one thing which is to lie an exaggerate climate science.

Fucking unbelievable.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/aposclimategateapos+review+member+resigns/3536642

JC

13 Feb 10 at 12:55 pm
The Lambert v Monckton debate is currently being shown on Sky News. It is very good. Both have taken the debate seriously, and prepared for it. Rather than scoring cheap points they have identified the main area of contention and are debating that point.

Sinclair Davidson

13 Feb 10 at 1:05 pm
And that is Lord Monckton’s singularly excellent contribution to educating local warmenists. Lambert has folded, morally, put on a jacket and tie and been forced to grow up.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 1:29 pm
Did anyone see that luge death in Canada? WTF were they thinking putting steel poles centimeters from a luge track?

Was Garrett involved in the design?

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 1:48 pm
Oh what bullshit CL. Monckton accuses AGW scientists of making poor people each mud, and of being dupes (or leaders) of a worldwide conspiracy to impose socialism. Stop pretending anti-AGW advocates (including Monckton) have been all civil and unemotional in their attacks.

steve from brisbane

13 Feb 10 at 2:21 pm
eat mud..

steve from brisbane

13 Feb 10 at 2:21 pm
Sinc:

I watched it live yesterday and I must say I found a new level of respect for both these guys. I’d never seen Monckers in a debate and made the mistake of listening to lefties that he was a dunderhead loon. Monckers is really quite impressive.

Lambert also was impressive too and did a great job of explaining his position in an way that was easy to understand.

Both did themselves a lot of credit.

I think Monckers won the debate though as he’s really a polished performer which is not to take anything away from Shines.

Don’t mean he won the debate about the science as I’m not a sciencist and they were arguing about some really complex matters that you can’t expect to know off hand.

As I said yesterday after the debate, it didn’t seem to me that there’s a huge amount of difference between Monckers and Shiny.

Leftville were always accusing Monckers of being a denialist when in fact he’s not. He thinks Co2′s effect and rate of change is not as great as what Shines thinks. Anyone that says that part of science is settled is a cultist liar.

Monckers agrees there is human induced warming. Shines on the other hand thinks we’re going to hell sooner.

Monckers also has a Lomborg view of things too, which is not a shoddy argument.

Yea, both guys did a reasonable job of putting forward their positions.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 2:22 pm
True, JC. The key point is this: if Lord Monckton hadn’t come here and straightened up the local warmenists and eyeball analysts, Lambert would still be on his blog abusing people. He had to abandon that and play by Lonckton’s rules – which are the civilised rules of intellectual discourse. This has been a good experience for Lambert.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 2:26 pm
Steve:

Monckers says that the ethanol scare from a few years ago caused a material shortage of food in the the world. His point is actually backed up by the WHO and the UN organization that oversees global food supplies.

Monckton is quite correct in saying there were food riots as a result of food shortages and the price of staples going up 100% around 2 years ago.

Monckton is also quite correct in saying poor people ended ended eating mud cakes in Haiti as a result of these actions by governments to ameliorate enviro-zealot concerns.

We were growing food to burn it.

There is nothing inaccurate to these points that monckers was making. Even various TV hots agreed with him. Even the EU agrees with him.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 2:28 pm
Global warming update:

Rare snowfall in Rome as cold snap grips Italy.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 2:32 pm
Lambert has folded, morally, put on a jacket and tie and been forced to grow up.

Agreed, but he kept the three buttons done up while sitting in what appeared to be his newly acquired “bag of fruit”, which he must have gone out and purchased for the occasion.

As I said yesterday, gentleman, that is, people like me, schooled in the fine arts of manners and general etiquette don’t do that shit. You unbutton the jacket when sitting down and quickly button it up when standing. Frankly I was horrified and I would have thought the place he bought it would have told him. Also you never do up the bottom button of the jacket unless it’s double breasted. I was shaking my head all the way through that seeing that. It frankly horrified me.

Not only does he have to attend economics lectures, Shines needs to go to a comportment school for a few lessons. If he doesn’t know about the jacket rule I could only imagine how table manners.

We could brush him up into a fine upstanding gentleman soon enough.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 2:40 pm
Another Rudd stimulus initiative:

Poor readers made to catch bugs.

PRIMARY school children with poor reading skills are making bug-catchers in a summer school program run in Queensland with federal government money allocated to improve literacy skills.

They can’t read so Rudd and Bligh have got them out in paddocks trapping grasshoppers.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 2:43 pm
JC I agree. My opinion of both Lambert and Monckton has improved.

Sinclair Davidson

13 Feb 10 at 2:43 pm
Sartorial oafishness aside, it’s a long way from the days when Lambert stole Tim Blair’s blog so he could control comments threads for someone else’s intellectual property.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 2:48 pm
Monckton didnt win the debate – his source Pinkers refuted what he said.

rog

13 Feb 10 at 2:53 pm
Monckton would have spent some time brushing uo on his delivery – he knows that Lambert has a wiki on his Lordship’s nuttiness

rog

13 Feb 10 at 2:57 pm
He’s growing up CL.

It brings a tear to my left eye watching the kid go from blogging to becoming a celebrity brushing around with lords of the realm.

Going from stealing other people’s blogs, generalized lying and dishonesty and finally reaching these heady heights of celebrity-hood

We (you and I) ought to be proud of what we’ve achieved with the kid, Cl.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 2:58 pm
So does that mean you now support what you called (September 29, 2005) the “contemptible CO2 rabble,” Rog?

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 2:59 pm
Rog, you have been totally beclowned. Give it up.

Michael Fisk

13 Feb 10 at 3:03 pm
The next debate should be between Plimer and Monckton, their CO2 models are not in agreement

rog

13 Feb 10 at 3:05 pm
Rog:

Not for nothing but all day yesterday you were giving people grief about Lurch while this morning posting a comment which essentially agreed with what we’d said.

And you now have the audacity to start talking about Pinker, high level calculus and telling us who got the math stuff right in terms of peer reviewed science and how it comports to the IPCC’s position.

Dude… you’ve got to be kidding.

These audacious comments are too, too much, Rog.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 3:06 pm
Rog:

Listen up and focus for 30 seconds.

The real point of the debate was the relative sensitivity of co2 in the atmosphere and the rate of temperature change. That was basically it. Most all else was a side show.

Both these guys are Math majors. Unless you can demonstrate the math and the reason why stochastic methods used to impose trendlines on a chart ought to be done way or another then you are in no position to be calling the science part of the debate.

Learn some fucking humility, you doofus.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 3:12 pm
Poor old Rog tends to bungle the details and make things up as he goes.

As de Gaulle said, it is better to be inside the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in.

- Rog, May 29, 2006.

…as LBJ said of his aversaries “it’s probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in.

- Rog, January 26, 2007.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 3:15 pm
These days those comments are pretty redundant, as I’m not sure how Rog would be pissing either inside or outside the tent since the sex change.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 3:17 pm
LBJ said that, Rog, you nimbus. It wasn’t De Guallle.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 3:19 pm
Economics and political analysis/lesson brought to by a commenter at Lavatory Pronto.

Castro has a fair bit of baggage like locking up homosexuals and poets. I’ll admit that there are some poets who probably deserve weekend detention but accept that this is an extreme response to writing from which we could all have been saved if the author had done therapy prior to picking up the quill. Nonetheless, Cuba’s response to the energy and funding crisis after the collapse of the USSR offers a remarkable opportunity to study one way of responding to shortage. Only one way, not the only way and not necessarily the best way for anyone else but it is a fascinating example of feeding, clothing, housing and educating a population in chronic shortage.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 3:28 pm
You cant remember what you said this morning, let alone yesterday.

What I said this morning was that this insulation thing has uncovered other ares of concern, in particular faulty wiring and/or faulty electrical works.

Monckton is a polished showman and that is what his followers judge him on. The cut of his jib. And for the inmates here it is the extent of the analysis.

What lambert did was to demonstrate the differnce between Moncktons and Plimers models

rog

13 Feb 10 at 3:30 pm
The Blood Libel is back! A paper called the “Palestinian Telegraph” has accused Israeli troops of harvesting the organs of Haiti earthquake victims:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2010/02/05/the-haiti-libel/

Michael Fisk

13 Feb 10 at 3:32 pm
Did you understand the difference between Plimer and Moncktons sensitivity?

rog

13 Feb 10 at 3:32 pm
Rog “the summarizer”.

What I said this morning was that this insulation thing has uncovered other ares of concern, in particular faulty wiring and/or faulty electrical works.

Yes, Rog. That’s what some of us were saying yesterday ….the various bodies told that to Lurch. Thanks for summarizing our point.

Monckton is a polished showman and that is what his followers judge him on. The cut of his jib. And for the inmates here it is the extent of the analysis.

Only Partially true, Rog. I agree Monckers is a very polished performer.

What lambert did was to demonstrate the differnce between Moncktons and Plimers models

Agreed. However you’re incapable of knowing if Lambert or Monckers is correct as you don’t understand the science of high-level calculus.

Both disagreed with each other on the point of CO2 sensitivity and rate of change. Please explain through your understanding of high-level math which one is correct and why.

Go!

JC

13 Feb 10 at 3:40 pm
Rog:

It was Tim that referred to Plimer. Monckers didn’t as I remember, at lest in terms of referenced science.

All I recall from Monckers was the reference to Pinker/ the rate of change and co2 sensitivity and how by using the IPCC formula you still get a sensitivity rate 1/7 of that which is being suggested.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 3:44 pm
OK!

I said “Monckton and Plimers models”

you said “agreed”

which then to “Lambert and Monckton.”

You dont need to be a mathematical genius to see that switcheroo!

rog

13 Feb 10 at 3:44 pm
Hey! its easy to see Plimers models – its in his book

Probably easier to read Barry Brook on Plimer

rog

13 Feb 10 at 3:46 pm
Fine Delete “agreed”. Happy?

Now carefully explain the science and the calculus.

Go!

JC

13 Feb 10 at 3:46 pm
So now you are saying that Monckton and Plimers models are in agreement?

Stick with the sartorial splendour

rog

13 Feb 10 at 3:53 pm
No, Rog…I’m not saying anything of the sort.

You really are fucking stupid, aren’t you.

What I said was:

The real point of the debate was the relative sensitivity of co2 in the atmosphere and the rate of temperature change. That was basically it.

Now please explain the calculus and the science they were disagreeing with.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 3:57 pm
You still dont get it do you JC.

Monckton was arguing from a certain position supported by facts whilst Lambert showed that Moncktons facts were misrepresented – the lynch pin was Pinker who Monckton used as a referee and who came out and said that Monckton was wrong

And then you get the disagreement between the Monckton model of climate sensitivity and Plimers model, as per his book.

Monckton doesnt say that CO2 has no effect on climate, he says that it has a reduced effect on climate and that climate has a low sensitivity.

Plimer says that after a certain level is reached CO2 has no effect and then cites past ice ages and rainforest, with fluctuating CO2 levels, which are evidence of a high sensitivity (ie climate does change).

At least one of them is wrong

rog

13 Feb 10 at 5:11 pm
And then you get the disagreement between the Monckton model of climate sensitivity and Plimers model, as per his book.

So what? The IPCC estimates climate senstivity to be between 2 and 6 C and yet you’ve never wondered which of these many estimates is right and therefore all the others wrong; you’ve only wondered about this so far as it concerns Monckton and Plimer. They’re, like they are in the AR4, independent estimates, FFS.

dover_beach

13 Feb 10 at 5:26 pm
A debate involving James Hansen would also be good. Agreeing that “climate alarmism is but the latest occurrence of a millennial cult prophesying the end of the world,” Rog once insisted (August 22, 2007), that he is a Creationist.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 6:09 pm
thanks for this summary again Rog.

At least one of them is wrong

Yes, one of them is wrong. So prove it through the science and calculus why one of them is wrong, you stooge.

That’s what I’ve been asking you to do.

Monckers suggests by his calculations the estimates for sensitivity is lower than the bottom projection of the IPCC.

Lambert doesn’t agree and says it’s higher.

Now tell us why Lambert is right and Monckers is wrong through the science and the calculations

go!

JC

13 Feb 10 at 6:09 pm
While you’re doing the science and math side I’ll also summarize the economic arguments for you rog.

Tim’s economics on this subject was atrocious when he veered in that direction. In fact it was just appalling. Tim agreed with a lunatic from the audience who suggested we should produce our own technology as the US and China were ahead of us in that area. The loon was advocating industry policy and picking winners. Inadvertently Tim agreed with someone who was essentially refuting one of the most basic laws of economics which is the law of comparative advantage.

Monckers correctly dismissed this as a form of picking winners and that it was wrong. He was right.

Monckers also correctly suggested that we really need to do cost benefit analysis for the mitigation efforts we put in place with a view of not destroying lives in the poor world and he essentially put forward Lomborg’s argument. He’s also right about that too.

In regards to the science: Tim needed to show that the top end of the sensitivity estimate by the IPCC ought to be to area we should worry about. I can’t see where he won that argument.

That was the debate, Rog, you terminal moron.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 6:25 pm
Yes, one of them is wrong.

Actually, both could be wrong. But I think that both are at the right end of the scale for climate sensitivity which is anything around 0.5-2 C for a doubling of CO2.

dover_beach

13 Feb 10 at 6:31 pm
DB:

I never got the impression that Tim was at the 2 degs end. I thought he was suggesting we were between the 2 to 6 degs range.

Monckers of course was lower.

Am I wrong, or was lambert at the 2 degs top end level?

JC

13 Feb 10 at 6:33 pm
“I’ll also summarize the economic arguments for you rog.”

Save your breath to cool your porridge JC, I doubt if you can muster the necessary brain cells to tie your shoe laces.

listen to DB; for once he cant deny the science

rog

13 Feb 10 at 7:11 pm
Rog:

I’m trying to help you, you thankless turd.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 7:16 pm
I never got the impression that Tim was at the 2 degs end. I thought he was suggesting we were between the 2 to 6 degs range.

Monckers of course was lower.

Am I wrong, or was lambert at the 2 degs top end level?

JC, I was addressing rog’s laboured point that Monckton and Plimer have different estimates so one of them must be wrong; I merely suggested that both can in fact be wrong as well. I further suggested that different individuals and groups have given different estimates but that I failed to notice rog breathlessly asking that all of these different scientists or scientific groupings could not be right so why was he wondering about the independent estimates provided by Monckton and Plimer. So far as Lambert is concerned, I’d say he hover between 3-4 C for a doubling.

listen to DB; for once he cant deny the science

Rog can’t help misrepresenting an answer. I’ve never denied ‘the science’ which currently suggests that CS is between 0.5-6 C. All of the observational estimates are at or below 2 C for a doubling. The modelled estimates range any where between 2-6 C for a doubling. I tend to favour observational estimates over the modelled estimates for obvious reasons. rog doesn’t really care either way, he just needs an opportunity to talk about Monckton and Plimer.

dover_beach

13 Feb 10 at 7:31 pm
Thanks DB.

It’s best to ignore the troll.

JC

13 Feb 10 at 7:39 pm
Rog, do you still believe Hansen is a Creationist?

Yes or no.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 8:08 pm
This is outrageous. The Queen is to give an address to the UN General Assembly in July. However, she is not giving the speech as the Queen of England or the UK Head of State. Rather, her address is in her capacity as Head of State of 15 nations, INCLUDING AUSTRALIA! She has NO right to do this. Sure, she could get away with including us, if she was speaking as Sovereign but not HOS.

Even Rudd said last year about Quentin Bryce’s African visit.

A visit to Africa of this scale by Australia’s head of state will express the seriousness of Australia’s commitment…

A Palace press release says:

The Queen will address the UN as the Head of State of the United Kingdom and 15 other United Nations member states. As well as the United Kingdom, The Queen is the Head of State of Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, the Solomon Islands and Tuvalu.

Though perhaps there is a bit of a misunderstanding, and one of the palace flunkies has misunderstood the particularly nuanced position the Queen holds in Australian governance.

In fact, not once in any of the official Palace websites/a> does it ever say The Queen is Australia’s Head of State. Rather it says things like these:

1. When The Queen visits Australia, she speaks and acts as Queen of Australia, and not as Queen of the United Kingdom..In addition The Queen holds a number of titles in the Australian Armed Forces, and has attended many events to honour their service in world conflicts.

2. On the Governor General, the website says

The Governor-General is The Queen’s representative in Australia. As such, he or she performs the same constitutional role in Australia as The Queen does in the United Kingdom.

But unlike say the US, there is no constitutional role in Australia for a “Head of State”. Note, the deafening silence of “Head of State”. There is a good reason for this. The Constitution never mentions the title. Now, even though it doesn’t mention the office of Prime Minister either, many acts of legislation do. No acts of legislation identify a ‘Head of State’

3. Australia has its own symbols and celebrations to represent its Sovereign

Again, notice the ‘Sovereign’ but no “Head of State”

4. Compare this to what the same website says about The Bahamas

The Queen is the Head of State of The Bahamas whilst the islands elect their own Prime Minister, who runs the Government

Curioser and curioser

Peter Patton

13 Feb 10 at 8:46 pm
Peter Part one if the constitution pretty much says the Queen is Australia’s head of state even if it doesn’t use that term. Was it even used in 1900?

I’m not a lawyer but from my understanding the current position that the GG is effectively our head of state is convention and if it came to push and shove the text of the constitution trumps convention.

I don’t really care so maybe I’m just being argumentitive.

sdfc

13 Feb 10 at 9:21 pm
The UK Spectator mocks the Australian media for falling into and out of love with the Rudd/Turnbull ETS debacle.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 9:38 pm
Here’s what the Constitution has to say about the Queen’s role and the GG:

Section 1- Legislative Power

The legislative power of the Commonwealth shall be vested in a Federal Parliament, which shall consist of the Queen, a Senate, and a House of Representatives, and which is herein-after called “The Parliament,” or “The Parliament of the Commonwealth.”

Section 2 – Governor-General

A Governor-General appointed by the Queen shall be Her Majesty’s representative in the Commonwealth, and shall have and may exercise in the Commonwealth during the Queen’s pleasure, but subject to this Constitution, such powers and functions of the Queen as Her Majesty may be pleased to assign to him.

And then:

Section 61 – Executive power

The executive power of the Commonwealth is vested in the Queen and is exercisable by the Governor-General as the Queen’s representative, and extends to the execution and maintenance of this Constitution, and of the laws of the Commonwealth.

Note that according to s 1, the Queen is a part of our Parliament!

The Constitution doesn’t mention a “head of state”, but I’d say that the Governor-General was our “head of state” as the Queen’s representative. The only thing the Queen can do these days is to appoint our GG on the suggestion of the PM (since the Australia Acts were passed).

See: http://www.gg.gov.au/governorgeneral/category.php?id=2

Legal Eagle

13 Feb 10 at 9:38 pm
It’s not curious at all, Peter. Elizabeth is Australia’s head of state. She is Queen of Australia pursuant to Gough Whitlam’s Royal Style and Titles Act (1973). You weren’t aware of this? If she isn’t Australia’s head of state, WTF are republicans banging on about? And I wouldn’t take anything Rudd says about professional Labor vice-roy, Quentin Bryce, seriously. Her African trip was meant to win African votes for Kevin’s bid for a temporary seat on the UN Security Council.

C.L.

13 Feb 10 at 9:48 pm
One generation made the money, the next one spent it. Only third rate bums remain.

Kennedy era ends in US politics.

And so it goes.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 3:00 am
A Kennedy’s husband is still in power in CA.

Political dynasties in modern democracies are interesting. Arguably they shouldn’t happen and yet they do and often they produce pretty capable politicians. Here there might be disagreement but the Kennedys, the Downers, the Creans and others while not producing later generation leaders have produced pretty capable politicians.

Pedro X

14 Feb 10 at 9:15 am
Watching Insiders this morn they showed a clip of Joyce asking Ma Henry’s son, Ken if high levels of government spending would cause upward pressure on interest rates.

Henry replied “with due respect this was a simplistic way of looking at such matters”.

I almost fell out of bed.

Henry, the man who told the world that the person responsible for the bank guarantee was his mother is actually telling a senator his question about the connection of interest rates to high levels of government spending was simplistic. The irony.

Joyce’s question was not simplistic incidentally and actually quite relevant.

Perhaps Ken ought to call Ma Henry to get an update.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 11:35 am
If I was the liberal leader, Henry would be publicly fired just after Rudd’s concession speech.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 11:38 am
Joyce’s question is being asked by tens of thousands of families right around Australia. That attitude won’t play well in the mortgage belt. The wombat whisperer needs to remember he’s a goddamn public servant.

Infidel Tiger

14 Feb 10 at 11:53 am
Just put a post up on that very point.

Sinclair Davidson

14 Feb 10 at 12:05 pm
Warmenist fraud Phil Jones capitulates, admits “hockey stick” was bogus crap.

… he agreed that two periods in recent times had experienced similar warming. And he agreed that the debate had not been settled over whether the Medieval Warm Period was warmer than the current period.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 1:09 pm
Rather, her address is in her capacity as Head of State of 15 nations, INCLUDING AUSTRALIA! She has NO right to do this
.
I think she actually does. y reading of the constitution, which differs from LE’s, is that it is she tat is our head of state. This act of course looks like the reassertion of imperial power at least culturally. Maybe the House Windsor is testing the water to see what they can get away with.
.
It’s a gift to the Republican movement imho.

Adrien

14 Feb 10 at 1:21 pm
Amazing figures:

Anna Bligh and Labor facing electoral annihilation.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 1:22 pm
Didn’t she impose the rule that every house sold in Queensland now has include an green rating that could cost a couple of thousand?

JC

14 Feb 10 at 1:27 pm
Botox Bligh’s gone ga-ga. Her latest stunt was to announce that she’s giving a “free” book to every baby born in the state. It cost taxpayers a quarter of a million dollars to produce. Because there just aren’t enough children’s books available, doncha know.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 1:31 pm
Bloody hell. Even Labor-lite Ted Baillieu and his band of spineless spivs managed to give Brumby a bit of a fright in Altona. There will be blood.

Infidel Tiger

14 Feb 10 at 1:35 pm
Tiger:

I’ll still refuse to vote for Baillieu. He’ll only get my vote from my cold dead hand.

I’ll spoil the ballot but the retard (and I really think he’s retarded (no kidding) will never get my vote.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 1:39 pm
Dennis Shanahan summarises what Tony Abbott has wrought:

In the 10 weeks since Abbott’s decision to go for the leadership, the following has occurred to the government’s detriment: he has unified the Coalition, Copenhagen was a fiasco, the plans for an ETS are less popular than the Liberals’ direct action scheme, the government has given up on getting an ETS past the Senate, satisfaction with the Prime Minister has dropped nine percentage points in Newspoll, the Coalition is equal on the primary vote, ministers are being savaged for bungles and financial blowouts, the Northern Australia Land and Water Taskforce that didn’t look at building dams has been blasted, and Rudd is being publicly challenged about being all talk and no action in front of live TV audiences.

In the last two weeks, climate change ministers Penny Wong and Greg Combet have been challenged about the costs to consumers of the ETS, several ministers have been unable to explain the impact of electricity prices on those in aged care and sporting groups and small business, Communications Minister Stephen Conroy has been pilloried about cost blowouts in the national broadband network, jobs for the boys and the gifting of $250 million to television networks, while Environment Minister Peter Garrett has gone from Labor hero to villain as evidence emerges of fires and deaths linked to his rushed roofing insulation plans.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 1:42 pm
Anna Bligh and Labor facing electoral annihilation.
.
Good. Four months after the Apology she nixed the property rights of Aboriginal citizens. There was no noise over at Lavatory Pronto at all. Funny that.

Adrien

14 Feb 10 at 1:45 pm
The result in Altona should give Brumby and co pause for thought. They’re still a pretty safe bet to win the next election.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 1:50 pm
My guess is that we’ll go to elections earlier than thought as Rudd is starting to read the tea leaves after that appalling performance in front of teenage kids.

Rudd’s going to use the line that his economic management and fiscal policy kept us out of recession.

The Libs need to hammer him about this by asking how much help did we get from the RBA cutting interest rates around 450 basis points. Ask those fuckers and keep asking them.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 1:54 pm
That was a shocka, Adrien.

‘Here my black peeps, the land and rivers are YOURS! Yay! Oh wait a sec – no they’re not! Yay!

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 1:55 pm
I agree THR. The libs under the retard would be more left wing and incompetent than labor. Hard to believe but true.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 1:56 pm
Compassionate Kev.

Grieving dad asks PM for better insulation safety.

KEVIN Rudd has ignored a plea for better safety regulations from the father of one of those killed as a result of the ceiling insulation program.

The Sunday Mail can reveal that the father of the first young victim – Matthew Fuller, 25, – wrote to Kevin Rudd earlier this month pleading with him to make changes to the program in order to stop more deaths.

Mr Rudd has not replied to the father’s pleas, dated February 6, and which came before this week’s Opposition calls in Parliament for Environment Minister Peter Garrett to resign or for Mr Rudd to sack him over the program’s failings.

In correspondence that will increase the pressure on Mr Garrett to go, it’s also been revealed that Matthew’s father, Kevin Fuller, first wrote to the Environment Minister immediately following his son’s electrocution in Brisbane last year.

Despite his pleas for changes to safety regulations, three more young men died while working on the Government’s troubled $2.5 billion insulation scheme. In his letter to Mr Rudd, Mr Fuller warns the PM that the installation company that employed his son at the time of his death has still not been de-registered and astoundingly remains on the Government’s list of recommended installers.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 1:58 pm
It seems to me that Garrett will have to be sacrificed to the Labor gods in order to save Rudd.

dover_beach

14 Feb 10 at 2:35 pm
He may not be able to DB, as Lurch my not be prepared to take the rap and has quite possibly told Rudd that if he goes he’s spilling the beans in that it was Rudd who ordered the plan to continue on despite his own protests.

I reckon Lurch isn’t going anywhere.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 2:50 pm
Lambert’s back at his bog claiming victory in the debate saying he wipe the floor with monckers.

For a start Lambert is not physically capable of wiping the floor with anyone as he’s too short and an-out-of-condition dwarf.

Secondly it’s not up to him to claim anything. The people there or listening do that.

I scored the debate about even, leaning slightly monckers way and I’m being fair.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 3:02 pm
“Lurch”

ROFLMAO!!!!

Capitalist Piggy

14 Feb 10 at 3:03 pm
Cap…. Lefties were/are always make references to other people’s physical appearances etc. so it’s only fair they get the same back.

“dessicated coconut”

“Rodent”

References to monckers eyes…

Loving Keating when he went after them about their appearance.

I’m thinking it works both ways.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 3:11 pm
“mad monk”.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 3:18 pm
JC, it was Lib senator George Brandis who called Howard a ‘rodent’. Jeff Kennett called Howard something less polite.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 3:19 pm
Bloody hell.

University of Alabama shooting suspect ‘killed brother’.

Turns out she blew her brother away 24 years ago and got off because of her mother’s connections. The records on that have disappeared. She was arrested at gunpoint after fleeing the scene. Her brother was shot in the chest with a 12 gauge. Three shots were fired. It was ruled an “accident” and she wasn’t even booked.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 3:22 pm
Brandis denied it, THR. In any event the only people I ever see using it are lefties.

The attacks on Monckers pyhsical appearance has been extraordinary.

It’s always been a leftie thing to demonize the appearance of their opponents. They write plays rejoicing in ability of people like Keating attacking opponents in this manner.

Take a look at this…

http://www.harryrclarke.com/

JC

14 Feb 10 at 3:26 pm
oops this link.

http://www.harryrclarke.com/2010/01/27/monkton/

Can’t even spell his name properly.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 3:29 pm
“The attacks on Monckers pyhsical appearance has been extraordinary.

It’s always been a leftie thing to demonize the appearance of their opponents.”

What was that you were saying about Lambert?

rog

14 Feb 10 at 3:31 pm
Exactly my point, Rog. You brainless chook.

As i said it works both ways. In any event Shiny has done it in the past an allows his psyche ward commnentriat there that liberty, so it “works both ways”.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 3:34 pm
No you bird brain, it is you who goes on about “Lambird is a shiny headed dwarf” etc etc

You conduct makes catallaxy the pits

rog

14 Feb 10 at 3:41 pm
Word up, Libertarians, liberals don’t like you either:

http://reason.com/blog/2010/02/12/hey-libertarians-liberals-are

Infidel Tiger

14 Feb 10 at 3:43 pm
Rog yesterday; “none of your business, you pedophile.”

Rog today: “You conduct makes catallaxy the pits.”

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 3:44 pm
Rog:

It’s your conduct here spamming the site with worthless drivel and incoherence that ruins threads.

You have nothing to offer this site. Your opinion is worth zero as no one has any respect for the worthless things you say.

The only thing you do now is stalk CL and me creepily wanting our attention acting like a battered wife.

I will continue to name call until I see a drop from the other side.

Go away.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 3:48 pm
Yes Rog, ever thankful to Cl for bringing that up.

I would guess you don’t count the abuse you throw, hey, you mental derelict.

Rog is like the character in Memnento who has to tattoo his arm with messages like where he lives.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 3:52 pm
Anyway Happy Year of the Tiger to you all

tal

14 Feb 10 at 3:57 pm
“It’s always been a leftie thing to demonize the appearance of their opponents.”

JC the secret lefty

rog

14 Feb 10 at 4:04 pm
Yes, Rog, you incredible fuckwit, I’m a secret leftie. Lol.

Your pithy come backs are always worth waiting for.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 4:06 pm
Congratulations Rog, you are now officially recognised as being Even Stupider Than Homer. Good work, old boy.

Michael Fisk

14 Feb 10 at 4:27 pm
Word up, Libertarians, liberals don’t like you either:

http://reason.com/blog/2010/02/12/hey-libertarians-liberals-are

There was an interesting dynamic at play over the last few years but I think what we’ll see is the old stalwart alliance coming back into play with the conservative/libertarian alliance reappearing. It can be a rocky relationship but both sides are loosely comfortable with one another (as seen in the Tea Party movement, and to a lesser extent in this country – look at Menzies House) and they both like keeping Teh Left from doing too much damage, hence their willingness to ultimately work with each other.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 4:30 pm
THR

I know somebody who was an ALP staffer back when Neville Wran was Premier of NSW. Apparently, in private, Wran never once referred to Nick Greiner as anything other than “that c***”. Maybe that’s where Rudd gets his apparent off-camera colorful language?

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 4:48 pm
Michael Savage is right. Palin is unelectable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmOAdeJFtY8

Michael Fisk

14 Feb 10 at 5:11 pm
Adrien/LE

Correct me if I am wrong, but I read LE as agreeing with my reading of the Constitution, and that the GG is our Head of State.

LE said:

The Constitution doesn’t mention a “head of state”, but I’d say that the Governor-General was our “head of state” as the Queen’s representative. The only thing the Queen can do these days is to appoint our GG on the suggestion of the PM (since the Australia Acts were passed).

And I agree,

I think a lot of the confusion, and thus acrimony, over the ‘Head of State’ is that many people think the term means ‘top dog’ or ‘most powerful’. It doesn’t. HofS is a diplomatic role, so that foreign dignitaries and powers know whom to address correspondence, whom to toast at official functions, etc.

In many countries the role of HofS also has a government/parliamentary power, the obvious one being the US. In other countries, the HofS can be completely powerless, yet voted for by the citizenry, such as in Ireland.

The situation in Australia is that we have a Constitutional top-dog in the form of the sovereign, the Queen, a parliamentary top-dog, the Prime Minister, AND a HofS, the G-G, who has theoretical executive powers, which s/he can exercise in the sovereign’s stead, but by convention does not – at least not often.

It is a bit of a dog’s breakfast, but that is largely because most countries have revolutions or civil wars to sort out these ambiguities, which we have mercifully been spared.

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 5:13 pm
Michael Sutcliffe

Outside of the US misuse of the term “liberal”, ‘libertarian’ and ‘conservative’ are not antonyms. Neither libertarians nor conservatives are ‘progressives; in the sense neither has a Utopia in mind they are working toward. Conservatism is a temperament guided by the ‘precautionary priniciple’ approach to legislative and institutional change.

There is no reason why a conservative might not support liberalization of drug laws, if s/he were persuaded by the evidence. Similarly, while a conservative is very skeptical of too much government, there is no reason why s/he would not support this ir that government program. For example, many conservatives might enthusiastically embrace a government proposal to spend $1 billion on drug and alcohol rehabilitation programs, or some such.

Libertarians seem much more able to cop drugs remaining illegal than they income tax increases. OTOH, libertarians might cop governments increasing spending on school education, if that increased expenditure went to parent vouchers, rather than to the state education bureaucracies.

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 5:24 pm
Yes, Peter, I think we agree.

Michael Savage is right. Palin is unelectable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmOAdeJFtY8

Yes, Mick, I wish they’d get over it ’cause, as much as I wish it wasn’t the case, it…….well, it is the case.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 6:08 pm
And what he said ‘if you want Obama for a second term then have Palin as the Republican candidate’ is so true it’s a little scary.

As is ‘we already have a ‘training wheels’ president and we don’t need another one’

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 6:10 pm
A touch of Savage:

Oh, so you’re one of those sodomites. You should only get AIDS and die, you pig; how’s that? Why don’t you see if you can sue me, you pig? You got nothing better to do than to put me down, you piece of garbage? You got nothing to do today? Go eat a sausage, and choke on it. Get trichinosis. Now do we have another nice caller here who’s busy because he didn’t have a nice night in the bathhouse who’s angry at me today? Put another, put another sodomite on….no more calls?…I don’t care about these bums; they mean nothing to me. They’re all sausages.

Look, Palin’s approval rating has been higher than Obama’s recently so I think Savage is being a little bit hysterical. Certainly, Palin is yet to cause as much of a firestorm as would have occurred had she voiced the kind of things Savage has about immigrants and sexual epidemics (inter alia). That said, I don’t approve of another inexperienced personage for the presidency. If Palin is around and firing in six or eight years – with a solid senatorial career under her belt – let her think about running then.

But if it comes down to the socialist loser in the White House now versus Palin, I’ll be backing her anyway.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 6:28 pm
I hate to say it, CL, but if she was elected it would ultimately mean bad outcomes for the US. I like her and she was a great governor of Alaska. But I love America and the American model. She’s not presidential standard, let alone ready for the world stage.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 6:56 pm
I think Palin is a sensational avatar of postmodernism, sent to us purposely to put a bomb under what have become revealed truths about gender, politics, and pop culture since the Great Disruption.

She is a godsend to those contemplating PhDs in media/gender/cultural studies, and even political science.

But POTUS!? Phuhleez!

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 7:30 pm
Who is this Michael Savage? He sounds like a real hoot!

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 7:32 pm
Government is running out of money: Part !

PM concedes health reform is urgent

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/kevin-rudd-concedes-reform-for-health-system-is-urgent/story-e6frgczf-1225830213617

JC

14 Feb 10 at 8:02 pm
JC,
If he wants a “bold reform plan” without “making [any] mistakes” then he is even further up in cloud cookoo land than I though he was.

Andrew Reynolds

14 Feb 10 at 8:28 pm
I hate to say it, CL, but if she was elected it would ultimately mean bad outcomes for the US.

I doubt anything she’d do would come within a bee’s penis of what Barry has done. What you and Peter (and Savage) are saying is almost exactly indistinguishable from everything said about Reagan. Palin, for all her faults, has superior instincts to Obama – for whatever that’s worth. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t be one – and have never been one – to overstate her viability as a presidential contender. Clearly, though, she would have been a superior Vice-President to Joe Biden – who is less intelligent than most primates.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 8:35 pm
Peer, Savage is a well educated shock-jock roughian whose principal obsession is illegal immigration. He has turned on Palin because she hasn’t gone far enough on border control and she has undertaken to campaign for John McCain.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 8:37 pm
Peter…

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 8:37 pm
Though I am a great supporter of markets and entrepreneurialism, and very down on the dehumanizing effect of welfare dependency – particularly when transfered between generations – I am an unambiguous supporter of Medicare.

However, I do wonder how we are going to afford Medicare as we live longer and longer with medical technology keeping us going with its ever-improving safety pins, sticky tape, and runner bands constantly putting us back together again, years after we would have been dead even a generation ago.

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 8:38 pm
CL

Having lived in the US and listened to real shock-jocks like Howard Stern, it depresses me when Australians refer to John Laws or Alan Jones as “shock jocks’. These two are ‘girly-men’ broadcasters compared to the real thing. Australia simply has nothing even approaching a “shock jock”. Perhaps there is a market for one. Perhaps Monsieur Bird?

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 8:42 pm
Hi Andrew:

The problem they’ve got is that the previous “bold plan” which was adding redundant toilet wings to schools etc. has caused them to run out of money.

That’s why SwanDive recently suggested it was the patriotic duty of the higher income earners to be hit with higher tax rates and the Wombat whisperer’s tax fix is going to end up being tax hike.

They’re going to hit the mining companies with bigger royalty payments as they think it will be more politically palatable ignoring what it will do to the marginal cost of capital and capital allocation for the big miners compared to other projects around the world.

It will have the same effect as the Argentinian export tax, milking their most efficient enterprises. So the ignorant turds are going to hit the mining companies with higher royalty payments and an ETS that doesn’t allow for nuclear energy as a substitute against very intensive industries.

These clowns (including the wombat whisperer) have the temerity to attack Joyce?

They’re kidding, right?

JC

14 Feb 10 at 8:44 pm
As far a the GOP is concerned, there will be an excellent choice of candidates in 2012 and the primary voters will choose the best person for the job.

My read is the voters minds are essentially made up about Obmanation. He’s a one termer and there’s nothing he’ll be able to do to change people’s minds. He’s already said he won’t move to the centre and therefore he can look forward to his desire being fulfilled by the voters.

The GOP could put up Reagan’s coffin in 2012 and he’d beat Obamnation in a landslide even perhaps carrying NY and california.

The funny thing about this twit is that he’s said he rather be a good one term prez than bad two term one.

The idiot doesn’t seem to know his history. There are no good one term presidents in US modern political life. One termers have always been losers. The moron.

He’s gone. The voters know it, but he doesn’t.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 8:52 pm
Having lived in the US and listened to real shock-jocks like Howard Stern

I loved the Howard Stern show. He’s great. I used to watch the filmed version on the E channel most nights. He was a riot.

I don’t know how he did it, but he’d just ask women to get their gear off in the studio and they would.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 8:54 pm
Peter, I’m not a great fan of the genre. I do think Bolt is on to something, however, with his campaign to bring Fox to Australia. This country’s media is essentially a public relations wing of the Labor Party. Rudd has diminished his office appearing with that vomitously sycophantic Sunrise scone head, Kochy.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 8:55 pm
Peter,

Medicare should be like HECS, compensatory tax cuts made and the health industry liberalised to boot.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 9:02 pm
The other thing in the US that’s notable lately is the number of Democrat scandals. Just about every day, another Democrat mayor, governor, candidate for office or dog catcher is embroiled in a a graft and payola scandal. At least two big shot Dems have been ruined over revelations of wife bashing. The party really ought to be brought under the auspices of the RICO law.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 9:03 pm
Medicare should be like HECS, compensatory tax cuts made and the health industry liberalised to boot.

Good idea.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 9:05 pm
If anyone is interested in the real reason the AEU is so opposed to NAPLAN and the MySchool website, here it is

Do you know how to calculate a percentage, or the meaning of product, multiple and factor, or how to convert celsius into fahrenheit?

Those are the sort of basic maths operations that an 11-year-old should be able to cope with. But many teachers might struggle.

A test comprising “27 straightforward maths questions” carried out by 155 primary school teachers has revealed a “shocking lack of mental arithmetic ability and basic maths knowledge”.

Fewer than four out of 10 of those who sat the test – designed for 11-year-olds – could calculate 2.1% of 400, and only a third answered correctly that 1.4 divided by 0.1 was 14. Overall, four out of ten scored 40% or below, only one got all the answers correct and the average mark was 12 out of 27 or 45%.

With the exception of converting Celsius into Fahrenheit, it is completely unacceptable that adults, especially tertiary-educated teachers do not get close to every single one of these questions correct.

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 9:05 pm
Palin, for all her faults, has superior instincts to Obama – for whatever that’s worth.

I agree with that. Ultimately the big BO is definitely presidential material but his instincts – really his moral system is what we are talking about – are inferior and the reason why he’s got to go.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 9:06 pm
SRL

I completely disagree. Having thought long and hard about this, and lived under a number of different health systems, I have concluded that health insurance is a totally unique good, unlike anything else, which can only be adequately financed by the state.

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 9:08 pm
are inferior and the reason why he’s got to go.

He has gone. He’s finished. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he wasn’t the Demolition party’s candidate on 12. I think Hillary could be.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 9:09 pm
Having thought long and hard about this, and lived under a number of different health systems, I have concluded that health insurance is a totally unique good, unlike anything else, which can only be adequately financed by the state.

Well, I disagree. You’re welcome to have your state owned health insurance, but I’d like to opt out. Cut my taxes and let me go to the market.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 9:11 pm
I have concluded that health insurance is a totally unique good, unlike anything else, which can only be adequately financed by the state.

Oh. Food is a totally unique good too with even more immediate effects to your health. I don’t see you or many others crying out for fresh mangoes brought down to the local government food depot allowing you to buy the month’s ration.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 9:12 pm
“I have concluded that health insurance is a totally unique good, unlike anything else, which can only be adequately financed by the state.”

Medicare isn’t health insurance.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 9:15 pm
I think it would be a good idea if teachers had to do more practicums and also had to do a B Ed/BA double degree.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 9:17 pm
Health care is not a unique good in the same way food isn’t a unique good.

Like everything else health care is a function of technology and compounding knowledge. The idea that the government can do these things ….. the idea that Rudd, Swan and Gillard have some unique knowledge to provide better health-care is a sick fucking joke.

There’s nothing a government hasn’t touched in 50 years of the post WW2 Welfare state that they have fucked up. Not one single program hasn’t been fucked by the reverse midas’.

You’re delusional to think we get better health-care because it is state provided, Peter.

You’re freaking delusional if you think the government instead of the market would have provided MRI’s CAT scanning, beta blockers and pacemakers the size of a coin.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 9:19 pm
You’re delusional to think we get better health-care because it is state provided, Peter.

The evidence is weighed heavily against you here. In fact, there’s no reason at all to believe that markets could deliver health care in an efficient and equitable manner, vouchers or no.

And a lot of the technology you’re talking about is tainted with government funding in its research, one way or another. Besides, it isn’t as if scientists magically become cleverer once they leave a government role and move into the private sector.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 9:26 pm
“In fact, there’s no reason at all to believe that markets could deliver health care in an efficient and equitable manner, vouchers or no.”

Jesus Christ I could accept you saying “no guarantee of equity” but “no reason to believe in efficiency” is simply horseshit.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 9:27 pm
Like a Jehovah’s Witness, you’re entitled to your faith, SLR, but don’t expect everybody else to convert. There are plenty of examples of markets behaving in a manner that’s monstrously inefficient.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 9:29 pm
THR, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit!

The evidence is not heavily weighed against you because Cuba uses forced abortion to keep its infant mortality rate at first-world standards. Heaps of people throughout the world use markets to get their healthcare. Heaps of people throughout the world use international markets to get healthcare they couldn’t get at home, or their own government can’t or won’t supply.

These existing, functional markets prove healthcare is viable in the private sector whether you choose to put your head in the sand or not. It all comes down to your definition of efficient and equitable which is most certainly retarded. The NHS ain’t efficient, and equality is a retarded left-wing notion that can never really be achieved anyway. The best way to get real access to efficient healthcare is the market.

And a lot of the technology you’re talking about is tainted with government funding in its research, one way or another. Besides, it isn’t as if scientists magically become cleverer once they leave a government role and move into the private sector.

Yep, and for every dollar of research, three dollars needs to be spent to get a viable product being used by someone. Governments don’t provide this wealth, and if they do, they are shitful at putting this program together. If they get it together it’s more like ten dollars instead of three. And it’s still probably not freely available, except in some other country for half the price.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 9:33 pm
Like a Jehovah’s Witness, you’re entitled to your faith, SLR, but don’t expect everybody else to convert.

More than happy with that, THR. You keep your faith and I’ll keep mine and we’ll see who gets to heaven. So let me opt out, lower my taxes and I”ll go to the market. Deal?

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 9:34 pm
“There are plenty of examples of markets behaving in a manner that’s monstrously inefficient.”

Oh please do go on.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 9:34 pm
Fewer than four out of 10 of those who sat the test – designed for 11-year-olds – could calculate 2.1% of 400, and only a third answered correctly that 1.4 divided by 0.1 was 14. Overall, four out of ten scored 40% or below, only one got all the answers correct and the average mark was 12 out of 27 or 45%.

These results are hardly surprising. Most teachers are indoctrinated Left-wing hacks whose real job is to disseminate propaganda, not teach.

Michael Fisk

14 Feb 10 at 9:41 pm
The evidence is not heavily weighed against you because Cuba uses forced abortion to keep its infant mortality rate at first-world standards.

Wipe that spittle from your keyboard and accept the fact that there isn’t a single country in the world with a decent health care system that does not have government play a massive role in that system.

Heaps of people throughout the world use international markets to get healthcare they couldn’t get at home, or their own government can’t or won’t supply.

So we should all fly to Thailand or China for basic surgery? Your point is in my favour here, not yours.

It all comes down to your definition of efficient and equitable which is most certainly retarded.

No, what’s retarded is thinking that privatisation is a magic wand that makes everything better. It’s a bit like Dumbo’s feather, for you guys.

The NHS ain’t efficient, and equality is a retarded left-wing notion that can never really be achieved anyway.

No, the NHS isn’t efficient, but then, neither is the US, especially in its privatised components. And whilst there are some senses in which equality cannot be acheived, all people can certainly be offered decent healthcare. All the better is said healthcare encourages a few Tories to go John Galt.

Yep, and for every dollar of research, three dollars needs to be spent to get a viable product being used by someone.

But this is more a question of centralisation and planning than money, since somebody has to raise the funds either way. Your system would ensure that research is done by the rich and for the rich.

Governments don’t provide this wealth, and if they do, they are shitful at putting this program together.

There are good and bad government-backed research programs, just like everything else. Sheesh, another zealout defending the faith.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 9:41 pm
Oh please do go on.

The housing bubble in the US and elsewhere was a pretty good example. A ‘shortage’ of housing was very rapidly replaced with empty houses and ghost towns.

In the ‘special trade zone’ of Chine (or whatever this zone is called these days) cities, driven to competition, built 5 international airports within 100km of each other.

Prof Q has done a good job of demolishing the efficient-markets hypothesis. Let’s remember that it was, at best, only ever an hypothesis, not a gospel truth.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 9:46 pm
Wow THR, anecdotes and opinions, but then you call people “zealots”, “faithful” and “dumbo”?

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 9:47 pm
This fear of planning is juvenile, SLR, and based on illogic and hypocrisy.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 9:50 pm
THR, you are truly confused. See Macfarlane’s comments about bubbles. Money is issued by Crown corporations. The US housing system had social equity provisions for loans and the US taxpayer ultimately subsidised the contingent risk on bad credit borrower’s PMI (FHA loans). The special trade zone in China isn’t really “laissez faire” anyway and they may even have the population to justify that level of infrastrucutre. The EMH is about pricing securities, not the role of public finance.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 9:52 pm
Wipe that spittle from your keyboard and accept the fact that there isn’t a single country in the world with a decent health care system that does not have government play a massive role in that system.

There’s not a single modern country in the world that doesn’t have shitloads of government full stop. But the point is, beyond protecting life and property the role of that government is inefficient 99% of the time, and the all the good stuff, like quality of life, comes from the market. Just like most of the quality in your healthcare comes from private companies developing new drugs and surgical techniques. Just like most of the good stuff in your Defence Force comes from private companies achieving breakthroughs and efficiences in how to exert force in a cost effective way (not to mention actually doing things like physically putting the military people in theatre). Just like in education people more than likely choose the private option if they can afford it.

So we should all fly to Thailand or China for basic surgery? Your point is in my favour here, not yours.

If you want to. You should do a cost/benefit analysis of the ‘here’ option to the ‘there’ option. I’m saying it’s morally wrong to stop sick people making this choice, or forcing them to make the other choice.

All the better is said healthcare encourages a few Tories to go John Galt.

So, you’re happy for people to opt out (and have their taxes lowered)?

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 9:53 pm
“This fear of planning is juvenile, SLR, and based on illogic and hypocrisy.”

That’s great you also have an opinion about this, but it is something else you haven’t actually got a grasp of.

Planning happens in the private sector. Central planning will have inferior outcomes.

Do you really think some ill informed quips can refute Mises, Hayek and Okishio?

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 9:53 pm
This fear of planning is juvenile, SLR, and based on illogic and hypocrisy.

And so called ‘empirical evidence’. Just look at China, North Korea, Cuba and the USSR.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 9:54 pm
The US housing system had social equity provisions for loans and the US taxpayer ultimately subsidised the contingent risk on bad credit borrower’s PMI (FHA loans).

An asset class was over-priced and over-produced. That’s a failure of markets.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 9:56 pm
You might have good intentions, but you’re pathetic. The government stops risk being priced correctly and that’s a failure of markets? You’re a man of faith, THR, not fact.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 9:57 pm
This fear of planning is juvenile, SLR, and based on illogic and hypocrisy.

It also contradicts all progress we make in other areas. We do not make progress with a “hands off” approach, we achieve progress precisely by greater planning and control of variables. With economics both those strategies are problematic because of seemingly intractable epistemological issues. However that problems does not justify arguing that a hands off approach is the best. After all we have achieved great success in modern medicine and this despite the fact that most of molecular biology is devoid of true quantification. Molecular biology is littered with thousands of paradoxes. Eg. Just now I am trying to understand why Parkinsons disease is inversely associated with cancers except elevated risk of skin cancers, esp melanoma. Absolutely baffling. Yet great progress has been made in therapy.

One strange thing about economists is that they seem to rely so much on data created by other people, especially governments. Most science relies on data created by the scientists. Maybe economists are lazy empiricists.

John H.

14 Feb 10 at 9:57 pm
Just like most of the quality in your healthcare comes from private companies developing new drugs and surgical techniques.

This is sheer garbage. Until about 15 years ago, around 85% of health funding in the US, for instance, came direct from Government.

So, you’re happy for people to opt out (and have their taxes lowered)?

If by ‘opt out’ you mean leave the country.

Planning happens in the private sector. Central planning will have inferior outcomes.

Doesn’t every major corporation use ‘central planning’? Sure, some like to tinker with some decentralisation around the edges, but they all employ a coordinated allocation of resources. Yet we’re supposed to be aghast when a government does much the same thing. It’s ridiculous.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 10:00 pm
If by ‘opt out’ you mean leave the country.

Thought so.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:01 pm
Palin, for all her faults, has superior instincts to Obama – for whatever that’s worth.
.
I think they’ve both got pretty good instincts. Obama hit the right note almost every day on the campaign trail, but now he’s running things it requires different skills.

daddy dave

14 Feb 10 at 10:01 pm
SRL

What examples can you provide of countries whose purely market-driven health insurance systems make a mockery of national single-payer or state-funded health insurance?

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 10:02 pm
no such country exists, PP.

daddy dave

14 Feb 10 at 10:03 pm
The United States. Is this poll wrong or something?

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:07 pm
Doesn’t every major corporation use ‘central planning’?

Corporations come and go(Why Most Things Fail) and even in families that achieve wealth it may only last a few generations(Schumpeter). Bankers used to joke about the 3 generation rule: the first works hard to give their kids a good edge, they make the money and give their kids the good life, and they squander the wealth. The central problem with macro economics is that it is attempting the impossible: predicting human behavior. Human behavior is indeterminate and so is economics. Good luck with that.

If private health insurance is the way to go then why is the only govt in the world which tried to go down this road involved in such a shit storm about it?

The older I get the more I think that human beings are hopeless optimistic about their rational capacities.

John H.

14 Feb 10 at 10:09 pm
I think it’s funny that one of the key points of the big BO’s healthcare reform was an extra tax on the ‘Cadillac’ healthcare plans that only the very rich could afford. This didn’t go down so well because a lot of the factory workers, such as the auto makers, some of the defence sector, and some of the pharmaceutical industry and probably others, had these plans as part of their remuneration. They didn’t want them being screwed with.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:10 pm
Sutcliffe, the people of the US have every reason to reject Obama’s tepid plan for health reform. That doesn’t refute anything. I’ve already shown you the stats by state, whereby low-tax, Hayekian utopias like Alabama and Mississippi have pathetic health outcomes compared to ‘socialist’ states in the North East.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 10:10 pm
If private health insurance is the way to go then why is the only govt in the world which tried to go down this road involved in such a shit storm about it?

What government’s that? I don’t hear the Swiss complaining?

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:11 pm
The older I get the more I think that human beings are hopeless optimistic about their rational capacities.

Yes, even when desired outcomes are achieved, it usually has very little to do with anything ‘rational’. Yet we’re supposed to believe that markets behave efficiently, because individual players will act rationally.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 10:13 pm
THR, what socialist states of the NE? Even Taxachusetts still has a relatively low tax take. The socialists states are Californian and New York. How are they going?

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:13 pm
“An asset class was over-priced and over-produced. That’s a failure of markets.”

So what you’re saying THR is that the market fails when it doesn’t do what the Government wants it to do. You have no idea what market failure actually is.

THR – I’ve told you about this planning caper. You must have very poor vision. Go back and read.

John – The Government shakes down the data and sometimes won’t release data we all pay for. If we’re talking about public policy then we have to rely on their data. There is a lot of commerical-in-confidence stuff no one ever sees but the analysts and the clients.

“What examples can you provide of countries whose purely market-driven health insurance systems make a mockery of national single-payer or state-funded health insurance?”

Within the American system itself. The per capita cost of Medicare is 2.6 times more than private health insurance. The private system has better outcomes. FICA, which funds the US public healthcare system is a regressive tax on employment. Now compare this to the UK: The waiting lists on the NHS total more than one million years and contribute to unnecessary deaths.

Now this is getting silly. Instead of the usual “markets efficient, may be inequitable” idea, THR is saying that markets just don’t work. Peter is saying that provision of healthcare by the private sector has inferior outcomes.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 10:13 pm
The older I get the more I think that human beings are hopeless optimistic about their rational capacities.

The older I get the more it’s clear to me how dangerous it is to put the ‘common good’ in the hands of the collective.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:14 pm
“Yet we’re supposed to believe that markets behave efficiently, because individual players will act rationally.”

Jesus H Christ THR. You have been reduced to the grave-robbing of strawmen.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 10:15 pm
The Swiss have a mixed system, not a private one, and they have significant out-of-pocket expenses.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 10:15 pm
How many state owned hospitals are in Switzerland, THR?

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:16 pm
“The Swiss have a mixed system, not a private one, and they have significant out-of-pocket expenses.”

Yes THR, and how does this go along with your idea that markets are definitely inefficient as well as perhaps inequitable?

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 10:18 pm
So what you’re saying THR is that the market fails when it doesn’t do what the Government wants it to do. You have no idea what market failure actually is.

Not really, SLR. What you’re suggesting is that building houses that stand empty, because nobody can afford them is consistent with market efficiency.

You basically evaded my point about planning. You’ve conceded that private firms do planning, but that they shouldn’t do it centrally. Fine. That still doesn’t give us any reason for throwing planning out the window altogether, and leaving everything to markets.

The per capita cost of Medicare is 2.6 times more than private health insurance.

And one dollar out of every three is wasted on administration. That’s private ‘efficiency’ for you. And you can keep pointing out the failures of the NHS all you like, there are probably two dozen countries with heavily-socialised systems that outperform it.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 10:20 pm
and they have significant out-of-pocket expenses.

So do we. It’s just we have those expenses at 30 June every year, whether we’re in hospital or not.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:20 pm
Yes THR, and how does this go along with your idea that markets are definitely inefficient as well as perhaps inequitable?

My point is not that markets are inefficient in each and every case, but rather, that there’s nothing inherently efficient about markets, and therefore no reason to believe that privatisation is some kind of magic wand.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 10:21 pm
there are probably two dozen countries with heavily-socialised systems that outperform it.

Like Australia and the Scandinavian countries. But for how long? It wasn’t that long ago that the NHS was like Australia.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:22 pm
I’ve got to give it to THR, he’s ultimately successful. He’s wasting my life and I’m learning nothing. Can’t you just do your arguing between the factions of your Socialist Alliance meeting?

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:24 pm
Michael Sutcliffe

If you think the American system is superior to the Australian, French, German, or Taiwan, then you clearly know nothing about healthcare systems, fullstop.

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 10:25 pm
“What you’re suggesting is that building houses that stand empty, because nobody can afford them is consistent with market efficiency.”

The US had/has:

*-2% real interest rates
*social equity loan provisions
*taxpayer funded PMI for borrowers otherwise rejected by lenders
*a directive to Freddie/Fannie to buy out bad bank debt to ensure social equity provisions are followed
*massive pressure on energy costs, productivity, human capital and output due to multiple wars – but you’re convinced that the US property bubble/recession/credit crunch/GFC/global recession was a market failure. You still don’t know what a market failure is.

“That still doesn’t give us any reason for throwing planning out the window altogether, and leaving everything to markets.”

No it doesn’t, necessary but sufficient. You’ve evaded the answer. All firms plan but central planning on the other hand is a bad idea.

“And one dollar out of every three is wasted on administration.”

Administration is a small part of total costs. What matters is average (total) costs or long run marginal costs. The lack of administration in the US public system leads to fraud and waste.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 10:27 pm
Well, that’s good enough for me, Peter. The majority of the 300 million Americans that are happy with their system are clearly wrong.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:27 pm
“If you think the American system is superior to the Australian, French, German, or Taiwan, then you clearly know nothing about healthcare systems, fullstop.”

Okay Peter, please provide us with the details. No anecdotes.

Semi Regular Libertarian

14 Feb 10 at 10:28 pm
If you think the American system is superior to the Australian, French, German, or Taiwan, then you clearly know nothing about healthcare systems, fullstop.
.
The American system is a lot better than people think. Just because you’ve seen a Mike Moore doco that says how bad it is doesn’t make it true. Of course it has big problems and they are different to the kinds of problems you get somewhere with socialised medicine, but it works well a lot of the time, and for a lot of people.

daddy dave

14 Feb 10 at 10:30 pm
The majority of the 300 million Americans that are happy with their system are clearly wrong.

Americans are more dissatisfied than citizens of other nations with their basic health care even while paying more of their own money for treatment, a five-nation survey released Thursday notes.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html

THR

14 Feb 10 at 10:35 pm
dd

I have lived and worked in the US. Its healthcare system is a crime against humanity when compared to Australia’s.

Peter Patton

14 Feb 10 at 10:38 pm
Ever lived in Bundaberg, Peter?

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 10:40 pm
THR, I’ve got to go, but that article has some great data. But it doesn’t damn American healthcare. In fact, it says it’s up there with best of the other nations. I was particularly surprised about the Canadian mention.

Look, if you’re really poor and don’t do anything to help yourself then America is not for you. If you’re average and mildly motivated to look after yourself then you’re better off in the States.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:43 pm
Interesting.

THE polls suggest a comeback and now the punters are starting to see value in the straight-talking Tony Abbott.

Bookies say the 2010 federal election is now shaping up as a contest, with 80 per cent of recent bets backing the new Liberal Leader against Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.

Rudd still the favourite but wow:

Centrebet’s Neil Evans said the agency had been forced to reassess its prices after several big bets in recent days.

One punter wagered $10,000 on Mr Abbott at $4.25, and another invested $5000 at $4.

“Of the last 50 bets of any amount that have been laid, nearly 80 per cent is for the Coalition,” Mr Evans said.

“It’s the first crucial sign the Coalition is getting right back into the battle after the Labor government had dominated with punters for two years.”

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 10:43 pm
The older I get the more it’s clear to me how dangerous it is to put the ‘common good’ in the hands of the collective.

Hayek had similiar views and I understand your point but who is going to be leader and how we are going to stop them being assholes? The collective is anything but rational, so much has always been obvious. My thinking is this area has become so desperate of late that I have been playing thought experiments with a friend of mine where we take seriously the idea that intentionality is actually a bit player on the world stage.

John – The Government shakes down the data and sometimes won’t release data we all pay for. If we’re talking about public policy then we have to rely on their data. There is a lot of commerical-in-confidence stuff no one ever sees but the analysts and the clients.

SLR, perhaps a major problem with economics is this heavy reliance on their data. Is there any other intellectual endeavour that is so heavily reliant on government data? Given the paucity of govt data, and commercial in confidence issues, economics can never achieve sufficient information. Nor can the market so the EMH is long dead. I pity you economists because that presents insurmountable problems. I just finished reading a bio on Schumpeter and he tried vainly to achieve an “exact” economics. Doesn’t all this raise fundamental questions about the goals of economics?

I wonder if the problem in economics is similiar to that of molecular biology: we need new conceptual tools. In fact I suspect that the major problem with understanding brain function is that we have no tools to understand it. For example just last week a paper was released that completely overthrew many standard assumptions about what neurons do. There was a glimmer of hope of there because it suggested we are attacking the problem at the wrong level of analysis.

John H.

14 Feb 10 at 10:44 pm
uh huh. Playing the “I lived there” card. Okay.

Peter, I have also, “lived and worked” in the US. I am married to an American. I have travelled the length and breadth of the place, have tons of American friends, and obviously, an extended in-law family. And let me tell you this. Here, right now, I was told where I live in Australia you have to wait to get “on the books” of a good GP, and then it’s $70 up front per visit. Waiting lists in the public system in Sydney hospitals are long. you can’t see specialists outside of sydney, in fact there’s a chonic shortage outside of sydney because the AMA (the country’s most powerful and militant union) ensures that the supply of doctors is restricted. Things aint so rosy here in Australia.
These problems don’t exist in America.

daddy dave

14 Feb 10 at 10:46 pm
Interesting re neurons, John. Kind of illustrates how fatuous and dangerous has been the warmenist march to a Stalinist ideology of “consensus” science, no?

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 10:46 pm
Its healthcare system is a crime against humanity when compared to Australia’s.

Well, I work with Americans every day and pretty much all but one love their healthcare system. (Although they agree Australia is good too, the question is how long will it stay that way).

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 10:47 pm
CL

A paper the week before last downgraded the CO2 feedback effect to quite a degree.

Consensus science is ridiculous. Take just about any field and you will find respected scientists taking contrary positions. When Rudd did that Q & A last week I was genuinely disgusted by the way he framed the issue: do you trust 4000 humourless men in white coats or … . Really, this is just pathetic rhetoric. Rudd better be careful, I’m waiting for some biopsy results and if bad I just might take him with me.

John H.

14 Feb 10 at 10:49 pm
Hey John, I hope you’re not unwell.??

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 10:55 pm
In an extensive ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll, Americans by a 2-1 margin, 62-32 percent, prefer a universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system. That support, however, is conditional: It falls to fewer than four in 10 if it means a limited choice of doctors, or waiting lists for non-emergency treatments.

Support for change is based largely on unease with the current system’s costs. Seventy-eight percent are dissatisfied with the cost of the nation’s health care system, including 54 percent “very” dissatisfied.

Indeed, most Americans, or 54 percent, are now dissatisfied with the overall quality of health care in the United States — the first majority in three polls since 1993, and up 10 points since 2000.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/US/healthcare031020_poll.html

Dave, the problems you cite are real, but they could be expected to only get worse if we suffered an increase in privatisation. Medicos have little enough reason as it is to work in poor or rural areas, and privatisation would remove the last of them.

THR

14 Feb 10 at 10:56 pm
Thanks CL but if it is bad we should have caught it early enough. Hard to know with cancer, only need one rogue cell to get into the lymph. Seriously, in some cancers it can be traced to just one cell. I used to joke with friends that if I ever got bad news I would be getting myself some heroin and planning on taking out a few bastards before I went. The news over the last week – house fires and Garret, snow trips and favours, this is just getting ridiculous. As for Garrett, he has become the very thing he despised. I completely disagree with Sincs on this, Garrett has gone too far, it isn’t that he has sought effect over principle, rather he appears to have completely abandoned principle for the sake of power. Sorry Sincs but Garrett is completely ineffective and even worse than that.

John H.

14 Feb 10 at 11:02 pm
Best wishes and kindest thoughts for you, John. Hope you’re OK going forward.

C.L.

14 Feb 10 at 11:09 pm
Its healthcare system is a crime against humanity when compared to Australia’s.

Oh please. The US doesn’t have a health care problem. It has a health insurance problem. Their helathcare is the best in the world.

Where does this shit come from? It was that fat bastard’s propaganda that caused this misconception.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 11:42 pm
When this obese nasty dickhead requires a triple by-bass or a stent, my guess is that he won’t be running to any cuban hospital the locals use for treatment.

http://i32.tinypic.com/2a69y02.jpg

In fact I’d run a book on that.

JC

14 Feb 10 at 11:46 pm
The link about Australian health spending reaching 100% of tax revenue in 20 years is pretty scary. What are the options? Increase fees, cut bulk-billing, longer waiting lists, or bumping off some excess old folk?

Michael Fisk

14 Feb 10 at 11:53 pm
JC, someone should put that challenge to Mike ‘Fatso’ Moore. Don’t pay for healthcare, get treated in a socialist nation of your choice.

Michael Sutcliffe

14 Feb 10 at 11:55 pm
JC

My point all along has been about insurance

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 12:00 am
Fair enough, Peter.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 12:12 am
Another scandalous Rudd/Labor debacle will be revealed on tonight’s Four Corners:

States fail to deliver beds for the disabled.

Investigations have revealed a $100 million Commonwealth grant aimed at relieving an accommodation crisis for the severely disabled has created just 40 of a targeted 300 new residential care beds.

It was seen as a good, but small, step when Kevin Rudd gave the grant to state and territory governments to create around 300 new residential care beds.

But investigations by Four Corners revealed that nearly two years after making the grant, just 40 new beds have been created.

Four Corners will reveal tonight in Breaking Point on ABC1 that the majority of states and territories have not yet finished one bed between them, including Victoria, South Australia, the Northern Territory, ACT and Tasmania.

And that’s not all. Many of the beds that have been created and counted as Rudd achievements were actually created by the former government. Others have been counted from other medical programs unrelated to the Rudd “plan”:

NSW received $33 million under the Commonwealth initiative and now officially claims that it has created 44 new beds.

But based on information given to the ABC, a significant number of those beds were actually constructed before the Rudd Government was even elected, and the figure also includes respite bed places that should not be part of the calculations.

A senior bureaucrat from the Department of Disability Services says the deception is “re-badging of funding sources.”

While attacking Barnaby Joyce over his ability to count, these disgusting clowns were falsely accounting hospital beds for the greater glory of Kevin.

Roxon has to go.

C.L.

15 Feb 10 at 2:33 am
My point all along has been about insurance
.
nice backpedal there, Peter.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 9:42 am
This hasn’t been announced yet but John Humphreys said it was ‘no longer a secret’ so I’ll break it here. You heard it here first

Humphreys will be standing as an LNP candidate in the upcoming Fed elections in Kevin Rudd’s seat!

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 10:12 am
In case anyone thinks this was a type – LNP as in Liberal National party in Qld, not LDP

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 10:22 am
The older I get the more I think that human beings are hopeless optimistic about their rational capacities.

Which is precisely the argument against central planning.

Yes, even when desired outcomes are achieved, it usually has very little to do with anything ‘rational’. Yet we’re supposed to believe that markets behave efficiently, because individual players will act rationally.

What a load of twaddle and entirely misses the point. Markets are more efficient that other modes of economic production and distribution because each of these decisions is diffuse and they’re mostly related to the wants of those directly engaged in the negotiation and exchange. Your argument, as a socialist, is that governments can produce and distribute goods and services more efficiently then markets, which is to say that the ‘rational capacities’ of bureaucrats are better than those, individually or in association with others, actually producing, distributing, selling, and purchasing those same goods and services.

dover_beach

15 Feb 10 at 10:37 am
“Humphreys will be standing as an LNP candidate in the upcoming Fed elections in Kevin Rudd’s seat!”

Riiiiight. The point being Jason? Will he do better than Bird?

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 10:39 am
No BirdLab of course he won’t. But it will make for a hell of an interesting election and maximise John H’s publicity.

Perhaps just as interesting will be to see Bird’s meltdown against the Libs on hearing this news.

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 10:45 am
And hilariously:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/i-wont-call-australia-home-hanson-to-emigrate-20100214-nzkr.html?autostart=1

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 10:45 am
I very much doubt it Jason. I’m not sure of the reasoning behind maximising the publicity of an obscure economist, and in electoral terms the LNP is nothing more than a flyspeck.

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 10:48 am
Oiks! My aplogogies. I’ve just re-read the initials. That rather does put matters in an entirely different light.

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 10:50 am
Over on Club Troppo, nabakov drops a comment about pandas which suggests he is enamoured of them. You’ve blown your cover, BirdLab

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 10:56 am
Does Humphreys have a ute?

Sinclair Davidson

15 Feb 10 at 10:58 am
I know of a local dealer up that way if he needs one, Sinclair.

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 11:08 am
…and there’s nothing wrong with being filled with panda-love Jason:

http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/02/13/valentines-day-chez-parish/

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 11:11 am
Hmmm. It seems Graeme has an interesting take on diplomacy and foreign-relations:

“The best we can do is gear up for our interventions to be BIG AND SHORT. Big short, and focused on murdering foreign regime leadership. We should not be part of any treaties or at least very few.”

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/blog-time-out/#comment-27370

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 11:28 am
is Graeme confusing his policy ideas with his body type now?

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 11:35 am
I thought it was Nabs a long time ago. He’s always had the best links. Where the hell does he find them.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 11:36 am
It seems they’re convergent paradigms Jason.

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 11:37 am
Not Nabs.

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 11:37 am
John is running as a lib. Excellent news. Bird of course will go ape-shit as the jealousy will kill him.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 11:38 am
Sent by a friend:

I asked my friend’s little girl what she wanted to be when she grew up. She said she wanted to be Prime Minister one day.

Both her parents, Labor supporters, were standing there, so I asked her, “If you were Prime Minister what would be the first thing you would do?”

She replied, “I’d give food and houses to all the homeless people.”

Her parents beamed, and said, “Welcome to the Labor Party!”

“Wow…what a worthy goal!” I told her. I continued, “But you don’t have to wait until you’re Prime Minister to do that. You can come over to my house, mow the lawn, pull weeds, sweep my drive and I’ll pay you $20 when you’re finished. Then I’ll take you over to the grocery store where that homeless guy hangs out. You can give him the $20 to use toward food.”

She thought that over for a few seconds, then she looked me straight in the eye and asked, “Why doesn’t the homeless guy come over and do the work and you can just pay him the $20?”

I smiled and said, “Welcome to the Liberal Party!”

JC

15 Feb 10 at 11:42 am
Mark at LP starts off a thread with this:

The Poll Bludger has all the figures on a disastrous Galaxy poll for Queensland Labor. The 59-41 two party preferred in favour of the LNP isn’t so significant in the context of optional preferential voting,

At what point would Mark at LP think it is significant? Perhaps at 90-10?

JC

15 Feb 10 at 11:57 am
Scientist who laid the groundwork for a Nobel now drives a bus for a living.

http://www.insideedition.com/news.aspx?storyID=2215

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 11:58 am
This dude has possibly he highest IQ in the world and is a bouncer.

http://open.salon.com/blog/travis_darby/2009/03/19/whatever_happened_to_the_smartest_kid_in_the_class

JC

15 Feb 10 at 12:04 pm
From my link:

Langan is currently working on a “Theory of Everything”, that as the name implies, explains, well, everything. But before we get into his thoughts on everything, let’s go over his thoughts on college:

He sounds like the American version of Lardulous.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 12:06 pm
JC

I’ve read about his ‘theory of everything’. It’s absolute bullshit. The comparison with Bird is quite apt.

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 12:09 pm
Too intelligent to be of any earthly use.

Infidel Tiger

15 Feb 10 at 12:10 pm
JC: Guy was laid-off from his job at NASA and laid the groundwork for a Nobel. He’s been mass-sacked. I’m sure Birdie would approve.

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 12:10 pm
here is the website dedicated to Langan’s theory
http://megafoundation.org/CTMU/Q&A/Archive.html#CTMU

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 12:10 pm
Too intelligent to be of any earthly use

No such thing. People who end up in these articles are going to be the outliers among their IQ type. You’re not going to see a story about ‘high iq person lives up to his promise’. It just isn’t that sensational

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 12:16 pm
Langan’s nuts.

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 12:18 pm
Langan’s Theory of Everything also sounds very Birdian.

Perhaps Lardulous and Bird could get together and reform physics from the ground up.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 12:22 pm
he’s advertising his work here

http://www.ctmu.org/

The Art of Knowing is a collection of remarkable philosophical essays by blue-collar cosmologist Christopher Michael Langan. Chris Langan writes with a clarity that enables him to present complex material in an accessible format without compromising depth of content. As usual, he imparts his message with wisdom and a characteristic touch of humor.

Part I of The Art of Knowing consists of a series of groundbreaking essays that outline the basic philosophy behind his model of reality, the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe (CTMU), and how such a theory creates a framework for human ethos.

Part II contains essays related to neurological correlates of spirituality, the advent of machine intelligence, the mind-body connection and other topics in ethics and metaphysics. Two of Langan’s very popular publicly available articles are reprinted in the collection: the ecological parable, Millennium Mouse, and the metaphorical introduction to reality theory, A Very Brief History of Time.

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 12:25 pm
oops I meant perhaps Lardulous and Langan….

JC

15 Feb 10 at 12:27 pm
daddy dave

Nice backpedal there Peter

I completely disagree. Having thought long and hard about this, and lived under a number of different health systems, I have concluded that health insurance is a totally unique good, unlike anything else, which can only be adequately financed by the state.

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 12:27 pm
Michael Sutcliffe

OK, as I am a consensus kinda guy, I note we have started to value conflict on this thread over similarities. In fact, my very first comment on this issue was exactly in agreement with your main point as well. I said:

However, I do wonder how we are going to afford Medicare as we live longer and longer with medical technology keeping us going with its ever-improving safety pins, sticky tape, and runner bands constantly putting us back together again, years after we would have been dead even a generation ago.

Secondly, following my/our first point is my agreement with you about pricing risk.

So, there!

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 12:37 pm
daddy dave

You can’t blame Medicare for the closed shop tactics of the blood AMA, for chrissakes! You’re shooting your own argument in the foot there, which is kinda dangerous with this private cartel restricting the supply of orthopedic surgeons!

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 12:43 pm
Hey, JC:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/2010/02/photos-of-note-rc501-air-to-ai.html

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 12:45 pm
Poll: Abbott surges to the lead in Queensland.

C.L.

15 Feb 10 at 12:49 pm
Get back to the kitchen girls, Dear Leader don’t like no female learning
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/dont-be-rattled-by-the-baby-guilt-trip-20100214-nzb9.html

tal

15 Feb 10 at 12:50 pm
Thanks, Lab.

It’s basically art in the sky.

Every time I’ve seen the new 787 and 747 I always think to myself… yes there is a god.

Now if God really wants to proves his existence all he needs to do is allow Boeing stock to hit 150 bucks a share.

I’m starting to buy into Continental and American airlines over the past month too.

I’ve set my sails for growth… to use an old Keating line.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 12:50 pm
JC

I reckon an IQ of 120 gives you every advantage you’d ever need. After that, people start going off the rails.

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 12:52 pm
She sure is purty JC. Just makes you wonder what the people at Airbus were thinking (Although the A380 does have a nice wing, and I do so like a nice wing. But that fuselage…)

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 12:55 pm
Tal’s link:

Similarly women who do not wish to have children should also not be punished or labelled non-maternal. As a young woman I find it frustrating to see women like Gillard constantly attacked and ascribed derogatory labels like “empty fruit bowl”, as though her worth is a sole function of her ability and inclination to reproduce.

I believe I may have coined that insult myself here at Catallaxy.

C.L.

15 Feb 10 at 12:55 pm
Hey… Could Humphreys take Rudd’s seat?

Lardulous would explode, Mr Creosote style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlK62rjQWLk&feature=related

JC

15 Feb 10 at 12:56 pm
that’s shocking Tal. Wow. and to think they’re crucifying Abbott instead.

btw doing a PhD is apparently no barrier to childbirth far as the experience of some of my friends go, quite the opposite.

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 12:56 pm
This dude has possibly he highest IQ in the world and is a bouncer.
.
A few things.
1. There’s a correlation between IQ and success.
2. correlations have outliers. (e.g., there are people who smoke that live till 90, people who don’t smoke who die at 20, and smart people working as bouncers).
3. who says he’s not happy. my brother had a phenomenally high IQ and he was a tradesman (and indeed worked as a bouncer at one point).
4. who says he has a high IQ? you tend to stabilise at your natural (heritable) IQ at around age 30. Maybe he had the brain equivalent of early maturation. maybe he was hothoused. I don’t know, since I don’t know his story.
5. IQ is uncorrelated with a whole bunch of things that you’d think it would be correlated with.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 12:57 pm
A woman in the US congress once said “I have a brain and a womb and I can use both”(or something along those lines)

tal

15 Feb 10 at 12:58 pm
Unions hit the panic button.

Unions plan war on Abbott over WorkChoices perception.

THE nation’s biggest unions are preparing a ferocious election-year assault against the Coalition in an effort to dent Tony Abbott’s rising popularity.

In a big challenge to the Liberal leader, around 20 union leaders and the ACTU will today map out a campaign, with fresh research revealing 53 per cent of workers believe Mr Abbott would reintroduce WorkChoices.

The unions are even considering a sequel featuring “Tracy”, the actor-turned-working-mother who played a central role in ousting John Howard from office.

A multimillion-dollar union campaign would be a big blow to the Liberal’s chances of winning back the so-called Howard battlers, who deserted the Coalition in droves for Labor in 2007.

ACTU president Sharan Burrow confirmed the unions were considering another round of advertisements similar to “Tracy”, who was captured on film being told by her boss to comply with his directive or be sacked.

I look forward to the Liberal retort featuring ‘Jack’, ‘Simon’, ‘Bob’ and ‘VJ’, four uneducated blue-collar workers ordered to crawl into electrified ceilings for the glory of Kevin’s stimulus.

C.L.

15 Feb 10 at 1:00 pm
I agree with all that Dads for the most part.

However the dude doesn’t just have a high IQ. It’s in the stratosphere. The fact that he’s not some nerd in a lab or one of the many Asperger geeks at NASA is in itself news I would think.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 1:03 pm
DD
That crank has been profiled around the web and in that book by Gladwell (which he uses to explain how IQ is irrelevant, nor surprisingly). From what I’ve read Langan clearly is unhappy because he thinks he missed out on the chance to become a pioneer in academia or something like that, However his theory is rubbish as anyone with an IQ over 120 can discern.

He was tested around the 180 or 190 mark and learned to read at a phonemonally young age. He’s made his claim and been profiled and investigated often enough that I think we can claim his IQ has been certified but as you say early childhood IQ could reach a peak and then fall.

There are obviously lots of supersmart people who are successful but don’t harp on about their Mensa membership or IQ e.g Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, most tenured physics professors at Ivy League unis in the US, most tenured maths professors at same

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 1:03 pm
There are obviously lots of supersmart people who are successful but don’t harp on about their Mensa membership or IQ…

Including Mensa member, Molly Meldrum.

C.L.

15 Feb 10 at 1:06 pm
However the dude doesn’t just have a high IQ. It’s in the stratosphere.
.
define “in the stratosphere.” And also, which test? And what does that mean anyway? What does it mean to have an IQ of say, 140 versus 190? That you can solve visual pattern problems super quickly? A lot of these tests are designed for normal populations and it’s not clear that they’re very reliable at the high end (or the low end).

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 1:08 pm
Few things CL.

Labor is unraveling and the labor “debbies” in the media are panicking as seen by Tony (fatty) Jones hysterical interview with Big Joe Hockey.

I also think Rudd has a glass jaw.

Fatty Jones is almost about to go into a coma.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2010/s2817337.htm

JC

15 Feb 10 at 1:10 pm
Dads;

You really want me to define IQ stratosphere? Come on.

Also there is a correlation with high IQ and achievement especially relating to incomes.

Perhaps Langan is bullshitting about his IQ level although I think Slate did try to corroborate his claim well enough.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 1:13 pm
Speaking of visual patterns DD:

http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/~akitaoka/index-e.html

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 1:22 pm
You really want me to define IQ stratosphere? Come on.
I don’t think people really know what they mean by this, and related expressions. In what sense is someone with IQ 170 smarter than someone with IQ 140?
Perhaps Langan is bullshitting about his IQ level
I don’t think he is.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 2:06 pm
labor “debbies” in the media
.
I’ve never heard that one before. What’s it refer to – “debutantes”? who coined it?

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 2:07 pm
In what sense is someone with IQ 170 smarter than someone with IQ 140?

DD
Not to be immodest but I think most people here and I include myself would have IQs in the 130s to 140s. I would be reasonably confident of saying this despite not having been formally tested. However I highly doubt I have an IQ in the 170 range. Of course what really matters is percentiles and 170 is a much higher percentile than 140.

With 130 to 140 you’re talking about your run of the mill bright academic achiever.

With 170-190 you’re talking about the kid who could read Shakespeare at age 3. That’s how I picture it. I think there is a qualitative and not just a quantitative difference at levels that high. Apparently Langan was one of these kids who could do some ridiculous things at a ridiculously early age.

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 2:11 pm
Dads

I coined it. Newly minted to describe Homer as doing a remake of “Debbie does Dallas” in the way he knee pads for the ALP.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 2:18 pm
Not to be immodest but I think most people here and I include myself would have IQs in the 130s to 140s.
.
That’s probably about right.
Since you’ve taken my numbers literally, you force me to modify tactics. I could pose the same question again, but this time using a higher band difference. For example, what’s the difference between someone at 170 versus 200. We keep going up, but at some point, you’re going to start to wonder if there is any difference between those numbers. I don’t know if there is. I’m sure there’s no upper limit on “intelligence”, since I can imagine a vast brain of some future species that can process stupendous amounts of information compared to us.
But I wonder about our measurement capabilities at the high end. If they are erroneous, they may throw weirdly high numbers from time to time.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 2:19 pm
I’d be interested to see the research on the stability of IQs over time.

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 2:21 pm
Trivia: I caught up with an old friend on the weekend, and it turns out we’re both commenters at catallaxy, but didn’t know it because of the use of monikers.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 2:23 pm
DD
There’s no need to continue your Socratic qustion to the point of meaninglessness. I’ve already answered your question. Of course we know there’s a point beyond which quantification becomes absurd.

What I’ve implied in my answer is that this comes in around the 170 or whstever equivalent percentile range then at the ‘run of the mill’ Mensa range. The cutoff point is when you start to get child prodigies like Langan (and John Stuart Mill) and at that point it’s kind of meaningless to say the 200 IQ guy is way smarter than the 170 IQ guy.

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 2:24 pm
I’d be interested to see the research on the stability of IQs over time.
Let’s not do the whole “is IQ real?” thing.
They’re pretty stable, but your genetic component (ie how much you correlate with the IQ of your mother and father) increases over time; maximising at age 30.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 2:25 pm
On Mill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill

Mill was a notably precocious child; at the age of three he was taught Greek. By the age of eight he had read Aesop’s Fables, Xenophon’s Anabasis, and the whole of Herodotus, and was acquainted with Lucian, Diogenes Laërtius, Isocrates and six dialogues of Plato. He had also read a great deal of history in English and had been taught arithmetic.

At the age of eight he began learning Latin, Euclid, and algebra, and was appointed schoolmaster to the younger children of the family. His main reading was still history, but he went through all the commonly taught Latin and Greek authors and by the age of ten could read Plato and Demosthenes with ease. His father also thought that it was important for Mill to study and compose poetry. One of Mill’s earliest poetry compositions was a continuation of the Iliad. In his spare time, he also enjoyed reading about natural sciences and popular novels, such as Don Quixote and Robinson Crusoe.

His father’s History of India was published in 1818; immediately thereafter, about the age of twelve, Mill began a thorough study of the scholastic logic, at the same time reading Aristotle’s logical treatises in the original language. In the following year he was introduced to political economy and studied Adam Smith and David Ricardo with his father, ultimately completing their classical economic view of factors of production. Mill’s comptes rendus of his daily economy lessons helped his father in writing Elements of Political Economy, which became the leading textbook exposition of doctrinaire Ricardian economics. Ricardo, who was a close friend of his father, used to invite the young Mill to his house for a walk in order to talk about political economy.

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 2:27 pm
I’d be interested to see the research on the stability of IQs over time.

I thought it was pretty stable until you hit 50ish which then goes off a cliff.

However I never knew that young kids could have a big range as was suggested earlier.

…but I think most people here and I include myself would have IQs in the 130s to 140s

I would be guessing that you’re adding Homer and Rog’s and counting it as one score.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 2:27 pm
Of course we know there’s a point beyond which quantification becomes absurd.
.
With respect, you didn’t say that earlier. And in my defense it wasn’t originally intended Socratically, but rhetorically. I wouldn’t be so patronising as to do a Socratic line of questioning on you, Jason.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 2:27 pm
Speaking of high IQs, more Dolph Lungren:

‘Last week Dolph appeared on the Swedishdirty Scandi show Melodifestivalen and smashed some boards and ice, danced and sang an Elvis song and even did a drum solo.’

YouTube.

C.L.

15 Feb 10 at 2:29 pm
JC, Homer’s extremely rude, and also doesn’t pay much attention to what other people here are saying. He dissembles, misinterprets and misreads. Therefore, he’s functionnally quite stupid in terms of this blog. However my bet is that he’s at least reasonably smart.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 2:31 pm
Dads let’s agree to disagree about Homer’s (debbie’s) intellectual disabilities…. err sorry I meant abilities.

In any event he’s the only one amongst who’s been chose to go to heaven according to him.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 2:34 pm
IQs are just rankings. An IQ of 145 is 3 standard deviations from the mean, 100, which means the top 0.5% of the population. I’d be skeptical of claims that a test can meaningfully distinguish beyond 145.

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 2:42 pm
Peter

But I think you would agree there are people smarter than say the “average” Mensa member.

Testing may not be perfect, however it’s an okay rough estimate.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 2:49 pm
that female professor who shot up her colleagues was already a suspect in bombing of a Harvard professor and killed her brother

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/02/ala_slay_suspec.html

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 2:52 pm
JC

Oh, of course. But I’ve often wondered, who is qualified to identify these 160+ types. If one has an IQ of 120/30 maybe they cannot even imagine what the cognitive processes of the super geniuses are like. Though to be fair, have you seen those docos where they try to unravel what is going on inside the heads of savants, such as those who can solve incredible arithmetic problems, or recite pi to 234 decimal places? Really interesting, the way it seems that these people visualize numbers/math, sometimes even as like music.

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 2:54 pm
What the hell is going on in academia these days, Jase.

I thought the academy has been heading slowly down hill. Now we have bombings and mass killings?

Peter:

Several year ago I read a book that tried to gives measures to people who have significantly altered our species in terms of the way we think and do things.

It’s a small number, about 4,000 in all.

I think, if I recall Aristotle was the smartest person to have ever lived.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 3:00 pm
JC
This must be one of the few mass shootings done by a woman, much less by a professor

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 3:03 pm
On the Pauline Hanson news

Does she know Britons are pissing themselves about the state of their country?

More importantly the UK probably gets proportionately more Muslim asylum seekers. Good luck to her.

jtfsoon

15 Feb 10 at 3:05 pm
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aOSePBV.iE.w

ha?

JC

15 Feb 10 at 3:10 pm
jc

Having read/studied quite a bit of Aristotle myself – particularly his science/physics stuff (called ‘natural philosophy) – I wouldn’t disagree with that assessment. Reading his Physics then Poetics, which is a treatise on the aesthetics of epic/lyrical/tragic poetry and music, it is hard not to have a Keanu Reeves moment from The Matrix and just say “Whoooaaa!”

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 3:11 pm
Soon, she’s a sociopath by the looks of it.

dover_beach

15 Feb 10 at 3:13 pm
The thing about Aristotle’s brain is that all his seemingly diverse writings from ethics to metaphysics to politics to biology to astronomy to physics to medicine to math to music are all consistent with each, and form an integrated whole, a proto theory of everything really. That is why Aristotle reigned unassailable for so long, in both the Islamic, Byzantine, and Latin Christendom worlds. Because as soon as anybody challenged one part – say his astronomy – then that person had to explain away the entire system. Just think about it. Aristotle ruled mankind’s thinking from 350 BC to about 1600 AD, nearly 2,000 years! Take that Einstein and Mill!!

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 3:16 pm
How could I possibly have missed Operation Titstorm?

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/operation-titstorm-hackers-bring-down-government-websites-20100210-nqku.html

BirdLab

15 Feb 10 at 4:03 pm
The thing about Aristotle’s brain is that all his seemingly diverse writings from ethics to metaphysics to politics to biology to astronomy to physics to medicine to math to music are all consistent with each, and form an integrated whole, a proto theory of everything really.
.
True, but it doesn’t follow that he was more intelligent or brilliant than, say, Newton or Einstein or Darwin. Given that there had not yet been much in the way of scientific/rational advance, a genius was needed to get the ball rolling. He did the job required at the time. Likewise, so did Newton, Einstein and Darwin.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 4:09 pm
“Given the paucity of govt data, and commercial in confidence issues, economics can never achieve sufficient information.”

John,

Good economics assumes this as a given.

Schumpeter and the Austrians are correct on the goals. The problem they have is some overzealous modern day followers reject empiricism. This is just stupid. You should accept though that empiricism can act as a straitjacket to innovation or refinement of ideas.

Semi Regular Libertarian

15 Feb 10 at 7:30 pm
dd

I would not place Einstein or Darwin anywhere near the league of Aristotle. As for Newton, his intellectual contribution was more marginal, and his genius was nowhere near as syncretic as Aristotle’s, or even his contemporary Leibniz, for that matter. Though Newton was certainly a class above Einstein and Darwin.

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 7:46 pm
Peter, I don’t deny Aristotles brilliance or his pervasive influence throughout history. I also don’t want to get sucked into a debate about who was the cleverest of various historical figures. However in your eagerness to put Aristotle in a league of his own you’ve made some pretty silly claims.
.
As for Newton, his intellectual contribution was more marginal
.
perhaps you mean incremental. At any rate, the more you look at Newton’s work the more dizzyingly brilliant it gets.
.
and his genius was nowhere near as syncretic as Aristotle’s, or even his contemporary Leibniz
.
Nowhere near Leibniz? It wasn’t Leibniz’s formulas that put Neil Armstrong on the moon.
.
Though Newton was certainly a class above Einstein and Darwin.
.
Wrong. I again stress: Aristotle’s legacy is vast. However, I think you’re biased because you’re intimate with Aristotle’s work. If you knew more about these other people and what they did, and what their legacy has been, you would not be so dismissive of any of them.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 8:15 pm
Einstein, Newton, Aristotle?
.
What a buncha underpants-wearing, lily-wristed soap using sheet owners!
.
This is a real man.

Adrien

15 Feb 10 at 8:22 pm
I’d be skeptical of claims that a test can meaningfully distinguish beyond 145.

Long ago, probably before you were born, Liam Hudson did studies indicating that the probability of scientist winning a Nobel was no different for IQs ranging from 130 – 180. Additionally, he argues that IQ measures convergent intelligence, whereas great breakthroughs don’t necessarily arise through that. For example, Feynman’s IQ was rated at 122 yet he was once voted the smartest person in the world. To wit his mother replied to the effect: so much sadder for the human race. And remember what Hawking said: those who boast about their iq are losers. Or remember Bronowksi, “A genius is a person who does two great things.” I much prefer that attitude, calling people a genius simply on the basis of IQ is silly. What matters is what you do, not how well you perform on a test.

John H.

15 Feb 10 at 8:32 pm
dd

I concede I am much more on top of Aristotle than Newton, Darwin, and Einstein (especially Einstein, as I am no theoretical physicist), but I have read/studied Darwin, and Newton’s Principia. And you are right, I did mean incremental. And actually very, very incremental. But most of his work was based on his co-invention/discovery of calculus (Leibniz being the ‘co’) and marrying that with Kepler. Now, this doesn’t mean that Newton wasn’t a fricking genius, but his intellectual breadth was way short of Aristotle’s.

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 8:33 pm
John H

Agree completely. Inspiration, perspiration, and all that.

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 8:35 pm
While I’m here can someone help me with a query:

I’m currently reading Foucault, History of Madness. He suffers from the pretension of writing turgid prose, I really hate that. Also many critics have claimed he fudged too much data, and the other problem is that History of Madness is very much confined in its cultural range.

So then, am I missing something? I keep reading this text and keep wondering why I am bothering but keep hoping my bothering will bring forth some reward but my capacity for delayed gratification is rapidly diminishing. I’m wondering if Foucault is just another pretentious wanker who believes that scholarship is measured by incomprehensible language masking poor scholarship.

John H.

15 Feb 10 at 8:38 pm
John H

If I were you, I’d spend your time clipping your toenails instead, you’ll learn more. All I ever got out of Foucault is that when practitioners of a particular discipline – economics, psychiatry, literary criticism – write, they tend to do so using language, reasoning, and logic that gives their discipline and contribution to knowledge some coherence that distinguishes that discipline from other disciplines.

Apparently this discursive coherence is always code for a diabolical agenda to oppress and take over the world. It is thus the duty of all Foucaultian ‘discourse theorists’ to teach scholars how to suck eggs by shrieking “look at these oppressive economists/psychiatrists, they are coherent goddam it!”

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 8:45 pm
John H – Foucault was a pretenscious wanker, and he like a lot of his contemporaries made the dumb-arse’d mistake of think that Heidegger’s style of opaque discourse was somehow virtuous.
.
Yes his data is not fudged so much as somewhat lacking in rigour. There are some basic ideas that are worthwhile however. My advice forget The History of Madness. Read either The Order of Things or The History of Sexuality Vol 1. He basically writes th same book over and over. Those two versions are the most worthwhile and the least likely to give you headaches.
.
Simply put he argues that our knowledge of the world and the way we conceieve it and speak of it can be observed as a king of architecture which mirrors the dominant power structure. In modern society the way in which this works is by creating a technocratically defined notion of ‘normal’ and then demonizanything that falls outside of that as mad, criminal etc.
.
The argument, like all others, has flaws but it has its uses to.

Adrien

15 Feb 10 at 8:46 pm
Thanks Peter & Adrien.

I find that type of prose very frustrating. It just seems to pointless. For example, yesterday I stumbled upon a fascinating linkage between Parkinsons Diseases, cancer, melatonin, skin cancers, particularly melanoma. In fact while Parkinsons individuals have lower rates of cancer they higher rates of skin cancers, esp. melatonin. I spent hours pondering this til the bloody obvious hit me: melatonin inhibits pigmentation, thereby reducing skin protection, but has consistently demonstrated anti cancer properties. None of this is in my area of knowledge yet I could read dozens of abstracts and a few papers so that in the space of one afternoon I could nut it out. Yet I spent just as much time trying to get a handle on Foucault, who is dealing with something decidedly less complex, and still came away baffled. I even managed to fit in a fascinating read of air warfare from WW1 to the present. SRL might be interested, it is Air Power, Stephen Budiansky.

While I don’t read much in the humanities these days I find it distressing that so many people are being plied with that Foucault style of obfuscation and are beguiled into thinking because it is so hard to read it must be smart. Bollocks. Some things are very hard to understand, for eg some of the econ stuff you lot put up leaves me at times baffled, but a history of madness(“madness” being a hopeless generalisation), should be a bed time read.

John H.

15 Feb 10 at 8:55 pm
Sorry, higher rates of skin cancer, esp. melanoma.

John H.

15 Feb 10 at 8:56 pm
Adrien, this man could kick that Scotch creampuff’s arse, admit it.

C.L.

15 Feb 10 at 8:58 pm
Adrien, I do wish your highland barbarian peeps had taken over the south, though. What a nation of cowards they’ve become.

C.L.

15 Feb 10 at 9:03 pm
I’m wondering if Foucault is just another pretentious wanker who believes that scholarship is measured by incomprehensible language masking poor scholarship.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but ‘yes’. If you’re looking for stuff to read Deirdre McCloskey or Michael Oakeshott are worth having a look in.

Sinclair Davidson

15 Feb 10 at 9:03 pm
Wow:

Rumors a flowing that Axel Weber a German and very strict hard money man will take the helm of the ECB once Trichet retires.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 9:06 pm
Yes, and Oakeshott’s third and final essay in On Human Conduct, says what Foucault more or less said or should have said more clearly and much better in a just under 150 pages than what Foucault did in two or three of his books.

dover_beach

15 Feb 10 at 9:09 pm
McCloskey is very good on rhetoric and particularly the rhetoric of economics. That was a gem of a recommendation, Sinc, BTW.

dover_beach

15 Feb 10 at 9:11 pm
A little inspiration to counter the zeitegeist in CL’s link

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/luttrell.html

Badass of the Week is generally a great site. It’s made some strange and dubious picks occasionally (Stephen Colbert???) but 90% of the time it’s spot on

Jason Soon

15 Feb 10 at 9:12 pm
JC – that would be fun

ken n

15 Feb 10 at 9:15 pm
John H,

I think that Foucault had his flaws (include much spillage of unnecessary ink), but that there is a serious defence of Foucault to be made. That includes Madness and Civilisation. I’m not sure whether you’ve got the abridged version that originally came out in English or the new, Gargantuan translation. But I’d be happy to put forth some reasons why Foucault matters, if you’re interested.

THR

15 Feb 10 at 9:16 pm
Jason, that is a fun site. Love the entry about the Winged Hussars. Their pikes were light even though they were 19 ft long because they were hollow. The length also enabled them to outreach a standard pikeman so they were anomalous among heavy cavalry in being able to actually effectively charge and route pikemen.

dover_beach

15 Feb 10 at 9:22 pm
THR,

I have the new version. I can appreciate the argument Foucault is trying to articulate but I’ve read a lot of complex stuff in my life. It was complex because of the subject matter, not the literary style. However if I’m reading him correctly, arguing that madness is a social construct and that madness is about “unreason” then Foucault completely misunderstands “madness”. People with psychopathologies are rational for the very greater part, it only in selective but highly deleterious ways that “madness” is becomes so problematic. “Madness”, a hopelessly outdated concept but relevant to the periods he addresses, often has more to do with perceptual issues than cognitive ones. This is particularly true of psychosis and helps explains why so many brilliant people demonstrate psychotic behavior.

Sincs and DB: thanks for the recommendations, will attempt to find these texts.

John H.

15 Feb 10 at 9:22 pm
Should I open up a thread to discuss books?

Sinclair Davidson

15 Feb 10 at 9:26 pm
Surely the debate – and the science – of mental illness has moved on so far that the only value of reading those mid-20th century guys is out of a kind of historical curiosity.
(Disclaimer: I have read no Foucault.)

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 9:28 pm
JohnH, the first essay OHC is available here:

http://www.michael-oakeshott-association.com/pdfs/mo_ohc.pdf

It has been referred to as the locus classicus regarding its subject.

More Oakeshott here:

http://www.michael-oakeshott-association.com/index.php/categories/primary-sources

dover_beach

15 Feb 10 at 9:31 pm
Very true DD, in fact the reason I have posed these questions here is because I’m of the opinion that Foucault is attacking something of a straw man. I have not encountered one reference in his text where he acknowledges the modern findings about mental illness. To put it bluntly, while there is some merit to the idea that the perception of mental illness can arise by social mores, the reality is this is quite rare. And in my experience, it is the general public who read a little psychology and psychiatry that tend to see psychopathology here, there, and everywhere, but mental health professionals have a much more clearly delineated view of mental illness. A friend of mine says that first year psychology students can fall prey to confusing idiosyncratic behavior with mental illness.

John H.

15 Feb 10 at 9:36 pm
However if I’m reading him correctly, arguing that madness is a social construct and that madness is about “unreason” then Foucault completely misunderstands “madness”.
.
Correct.
that is soooooo bullshit. That’s like reading an impassioned case for the existence of phlogiston.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 9:37 pm
A friend of mine says that first year psychology students can fall prey to confusing idiosyncratic behavior with mental illness.
.
The same is true of medical students, over-diagnosing themselves with all manner of things. It’s called “intern syndrome.”

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 9:38 pm
Media Watch now batting for SA premier Rann.

We now have the spectacle of ever single ABC news or semi news outlet acting as the ALP media wing.

Jonathon Holmes has the most annoying, smug, irritating, self satisfied smirk of any dead beat in the ALP media wing (our ABC). Can’t we revoke his residence and send him back to the BBC?

Q&A on tonight with Fatty Jones. Lets he was he does to help the cause. Let me guess how many times AGW is brought up.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 9:40 pm
John H/dd

To be fair, I took Psych 1A/1B. So much material is covered, it never gets anywhere near the Foucault stuff. And surprisingly, if taught well, as my courses were, quite a bit of critical/epistemological stuff is thrown in to the mix.

Peter Patton

15 Feb 10 at 9:43 pm
John H,

Thanks.

Semi Regular Libertarian

15 Feb 10 at 9:45 pm
JC – why are you doing this? Don’t watch that crap.

Sinclair Davidson

15 Feb 10 at 9:46 pm
Thanks DB,

I did a quick read of several pages. Difficult read but for the right reasons! I like his extensive use of parentheses because it suggests to me that Oakeshott is keenly aware that language has great utility but also great limitations; the latter too often under appreciated by people. It reminds me of what some bods who were well across this subject long ago kept telling me: a big problem in psychology is the use of “folk psychology concepts”(yes, behaviorists and radical behaviorists) and that we need to be very careful of the use of language.

PP:

Very pleased to hear that they did address epistemological issues because the people I relied on to educate me about this stuff made a big deal out of that. In fact they stated far too much of psychology ignores fundamental epistemic issues. See my comments re Oakeshott above, he too is prepared to grapple with this difficult issue.

I have some files on this, I’ll see if I can find internet links for you on it.

SRL,

A good read, well researched and very well written.

John H.

15 Feb 10 at 10:00 pm
PP:

http://webs.iep.uminho.pt/labpsi/artigos/philosophy/Facts,%20concepts,%20and%20theories.pdf

Behavior and Philosophy, 28, 1- 40 (2000). © 2000 Cambridge Center for Behavioral Studies
1
FACTS, CONCEPTS, AND THEORIES: THE SHAPE OF
PSYCHOLOGY’S EPISTEMIC TRIANGLE

Abstract

ABSTRACT: In this essay we introduce the idea of an epistemic triangle, with factual,
theoretical, and conceptual investigations at its vertices, and argue that whereas scientific
progress requires a balance among the three types of investigations, psychology’s epistemic
triangle is stretched disproportionately in the direction of factual investigations. Expressed
by a variety of different problems, this unbalance may be created by a main operative
theme—the obsession of psychology with a narrow and mechanical view of the scientific
method and a misguided aversion to conceptual inquiries. Hence, to redress psychology’s
epistemic triangle, a broader and more realistic conception of method is needed and, in
particular, conceptual investigations must be promoted. Using examples from different
research domains, we describe the nature of conceptual investigations, relate them to
theoretical investigations, and illustrate their purposes, forms, and limitations.
Key words: conceptual analysis, scientific method, language, epistemic state, psychology.

John H.

15 Feb 10 at 10:09 pm
You’re right sinc.

I’m switching it back to bloomberg TV.

JC

15 Feb 10 at 10:35 pm
Oops.

Lindsey Tanner makes $2.7 billion blunder:

THE Government has accused Tony Abbott of racking up $10.7 billion in unfunded commitments since taking over as Opposition Leader in December.

But Labor’s calculations also include Coalition policies first espoused by Mr Abbott’s Liberal party predecessors Brendan Nelson and Malcolm Turnbull.

“Mr Abbott has all the rhetoric of a fiscal disciplinarian, but as soon as it comes time to confront the implications of his comments he runs for the hills,” Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner said.

But when asked about the calculation on Mr Abbott’s unfunded promises, a spokesman for Mr Tanner said the figures included the Coalition’s opposition to means tests being applied to the baby bonus and family tax benefits.

Dr Nelson opposed the measures after the 2008 budget.

The calculation also includes Mr Turnbull’s stance against means testing the private health insurance rebate for singles earning more than $75,000 and couples taking home more than $150,000.

Since taking over as Opposition Leader, Mr Abbott has announced a $1.1 billion annual fund to help farmers, businesses and households cut emissions.

He has also unveiled a $750 million a year policy to create a 15,000-strong green army.

Both environmental policies add up to about $8 billion over the next five years.

C.L.

15 Feb 10 at 10:38 pm
John H,

I don’t read Foucault as saying that madness is a ‘social construct’. I think that he is making a Kuhnian type of point, namely, that our conceptions of madness are determined by the epistemological conditions available at the time. This ought to be reasonably uncontroversial.

The controversial point lies not in the definition of ‘madness’, but in our treatment of it. Yes, his account is focused heavily on Paris (and, to a lesser extent, London). The reason for this is that these were the cities that first developed police and ‘public hygience’ measures as a form of social control. Foucault’s fundamental point in M&C, above all else, is that, as mental health treatment becomes more “enlightened”, it does not, for all that, become any less controlling. The mental health patient is a subject to be monitored, disciplined, and controlled, and it’s typical of the paradigmatic stupidity of libertarians that they weep over anti-fat kid ads, whilst turning a blind eye to psychiatrists controlling the most intimate aspects of a person’s life.

THR

15 Feb 10 at 10:47 pm
I should add that many of Foucault’s direct followers are wankers, and use his theories idiotically. This is not a reflection on Foucault himself, and some of the over-excited keyboard warriors above ought to retract their hasty judgements.

THR

15 Feb 10 at 10:49 pm
turning a blind eye to psychiatrists controlling the most intimate aspects of a person’s life
.
please explain. I would like to hear more of your thoughts on this. For instance, please give some examples of “intimate aspects of a person’s life” that are controlled by psychiatrists, that we might concievably object to.

daddy dave

15 Feb 10 at 10:55 pm
and it’s typical of the paradigmatic stupidity of libertarians

As opposed to the paradigmatic stupidity of socialists that fail to see that Foucault’s argument applies far more critically to productivist, distributivist and therapeutic ends that socialist seek to impose through bureaucracy?

dover_beach

15 Feb 10 at 10:59 pm
As opposed to the paradigmatic stupidity of socialists that fail to see that Foucault’s argument applies far more critically to productivist, distributivist and therapeutic ends that socialist seek to impose through bureaucracy?

Dover, there are many forms of ‘socialism. Probably there are more forms of socialism than there are forms of conservatism. Until you can approach this topic sensibly, continue to find typos in warmenist blogs like a good fellow.

please explain. I would like to hear more of your thoughts on this. For instance, please give some examples of “intimate aspects of a person’s life” that are controlled by psychiatrists, that we might concievably object to.

This would take a very long discussion to do properly, but the short answer is that most forms of psychiatry are things we don’t ‘object to’. At the high end, this is shackling, drugging, and incarcerating people for psychiatric reasons. At the low end, this is medicating, and telling people that their thoughts are ‘irrational’ and ought to be replaced with something more positive. You don’t get anything much more intimate than your thoughts.

THR

15 Feb 10 at 11:30 pm
THR

I think Foucault hedges on the issue, the fact that he has been so often misunderstood on this point probably says more about his state of confusion than the inability of his readers to correctly comprehend his view. I’ll accept your position if only because the idea of madness as a social construct is so ludicrous it is not worthy of serious consideration.

I take offence at your idea that psychologists and psychiatrists are about controlling peoples’ lives. On my email list is a former clinical psychologist(Canada), a brilliant retired neuropsychologist(NY), and a visiting professor of psychology(Phile). If I were to suggest to them that their intellectual endeavours were about robbing the mentally ill of their freedom they would be asking me if I had recently fallen on my head.

A friend of mine is a clinical nurse manager for a dementia ward in a major Aus hospital. She has repeatedly told me that the problem of “agitation” in dementia represents a very real threat to the physical safety of her staff. Daddy Dave may appreciate that the term “agitation” is a polite way of saying the a large number of dementia patients express levels of violence that if committed in the public realm would have them locked up for several months if not years. The problem is so severe in some patients that they even use estrogen patches as a means of moderating their behavior.

A greatest sadness in my life was watching a close friend fall apart after a failed relationship. He drank himself to oblivion, fell over, and suffered brain damage. He was so violent he knocked out his father, a big man, and eventually his whole family abandoned him. He is now under the permanent care of the State.

A childhood friend demonstrated behaviors that if not for his diagnosis of schizophrenia he would now be locked up for sexual deviancy. Long before that diagnosis though there was an incident that was ingrained into my memory, one of the few things I remember from childhood(I’m that old!). We were having a bunger fight in the bush, 6 on either side throw lit fireworks at each other. We started a bushfire. Everyone went to task putting out the fire. Not this bloke, to this day I can vividly recall turning around and seeing him just laughing, even though houses were less than 50 metres away. Then, at that tender age of 15, I knew there was something “odd” about Philip. Very bright, gifted category, but obviously had a too many kangaroos loose in the top paddock. Post that event, he was arrested any number of times for lewd behavior.

Now, the data is unequivocable, schizophrenics have very high rates of suicide. We do not institutionalise these people because they are a nuisance, because they challenge our morals and sense of sanity. We do it because they are not only a danger to others but much more often a danger to themselves. If you think that modern professionals are all about controlling the mentally ill then you need to stop reading Szasz and Laing. It is highly insulting to the relevant professions to suggest that they are acting as a secret State police. I have known a number of these professional people and have never seen this attitude of “let’s lock ém up because we want to control them’. They are compassionate people, they tackle the most distressing and difficult of issues: helping the mentally ill. Casting them as evil scientists who wish to control the most intimate aspect of their patients’lives is an egregious slur and in short: Don’t patronise me with such insulting generalisation that have no foundation in reality.

The simple fact is this: most treatments have done an enormous amount to increase the freedom of the mentally ill. Your warrant is not only in question it is in tatters.

John H.

15 Feb 10 at 11:37 pm
Actually THR you couldn’t be more wrong this time.

A lot of libertarians who are knowledgeable about psychiatry are into Thomas Szaz (though I’m not one of them, I find his arguments mostly absurd for the reasons John H cites) and Szasz has been interviewed by and was even a contributing editor to the US libertarian flagship magazine Reason

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Curing+the+Therapeutic+State.-a063330929

Jason Soon

15 Feb 10 at 11:48 pm
I’ll accept your position if only because the idea of madness as a social construct is so ludicrous it is not worthy of serious consideration.

Strictly speaking, ‘madness’ is a social construct. There is certainly no madness outside of the society in which it’s constructed. That isn’t to say that it isn’t also biological, psychogenic, or whatever, but our conception of ‘madness’ (and this is something that lies with the diagnostician, not the diagnosed) is very much a ‘social construct’. One could say exactly the same thing of a whole range of disciplines.

I take offence at your idea that psychologists and psychiatrists are about controlling peoples’ lives

No, they’re not all. Foucault’s argument, whether we choose to accept it, is that this is how psychiatry originated. You rightly draw attention to the ‘secret State police’. This (i.e. the USSR) is the most extreme example of the abuse of the mental health profession. That the abuses that occur in our society are more subtle, more in line with the official (and therefore, unspoken) ideology does not mean that they do not exist.

The ability and desire to work, for instance, are taken as signs of good health (see Axis V in the infamous DSM). As if a person could not, perfectly ‘sanely’ and rationally, opt for not working. As if being a corporate drudge of some sort is the equivalent of ‘health’.

Now, there is a moral argument for preventing the suicidal from killing themselves. They may change their minds after a little treatment. But there is no moral argument for the more subtle interventions – for indoctrinating an individual with CBT, for instance.

If psychiatrist and psychologists are offended by the message of Foucault (and by now, they ought not to be), then let them look honestly at the origins and goals of their discipline. The likes of Le Bon, and the others trying to control populations and institute social hygiene, were not good-willed pragmatists like your professional friends.

THR

15 Feb 10 at 11:50 pm
A lot of libertarians who are knowledgeable about psychiatry are into Thomas Szaz

Szasz wasn’t that bright, and Foucault didn’t cite him in any major work. Deal with the actual arguments, not merely the ones that libertarians are able to comprehend.

THR

15 Feb 10 at 11:51 pm
Why should I deal with bullshit arguments of armchair literary theorists when cognitive and clinical scientists and evolutionists have told us more about the mind than the last few centuries of wasted paper?

I only wanted to pick you up on the point about your identifying libertarians with a position they don’t all necessarily do (something you have done here for the umpteenth time) and could give a toss about the other wankery you like to promote.

My reading has more constructive priorities THR. I’ll leave you to your usual anti-science guff.

Jason Soon

16 Feb 10 at 12:06 am
That non-mad tenure-bereft American microbiologist certainly social constructed the bejesus out of those three academics.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 12:09 am
My point was that libertarians are very soft, fat and ignorant when it comes to a whole range of forms of social control. You then want to come out and dismiss theories that you don’t understand a word of.

There’s nothing ‘anti-science’ about Foucault. It’s a shame that those who purport to stand for liberty dismiss him. He’s not perfect, but he has a lot to teach you about the shrinking of the modern soul under pseudo-scientific scrutiny. But by all means, stick to Ayn Rand and Laffer curves.

THR

16 Feb 10 at 12:12 am
I should add that, in the book that John H cites (at least, the version I’ve read, which is different to his) Foucault nowhere claims that ‘madness does not exist’. In fact, he explicitly claims that it does. He argues that in Renaissance Europe, mad people walked among us. It was during the 18th-19th century that they began to be interned.

Have a look at the DSM. What is to be considered a ‘disorder’? Is it statistical abnormality? Then why aren’t geniuses considered ‘disordered’? Is it to be defined in terms of ‘harm’? We have an ‘antisocial personality disorder’, but nor a ‘pro-social personality disorder’ (though one is as legitimate as the other). The DSM fairly blatantly shifts moral code to the realm of psychiatric disorder (hence homosexuality was a disorder up until the DSM-III).

Get a grip, people. Scepticism for mainstream psychiatry is not tantamount to contempt for the suicidal or schizophrenic. It’s basic logic and liberty for those who care about such things.

THR

16 Feb 10 at 12:18 am
From Bolt. NbN looks worse by the hour.

“The day before Telstra coughed up its dismal interim profit result last week, Google announced that it was planning to go into the broadband business in the US, and would offer fibre speeds of one gigabit per second.

In a statement headed “Thinking big with a gig” the world’s richest internet company said it would offer ultra-fast broadband “at a competitive price” to up to 500,000 customers.

Australia’s whizz-bang 100 megabits a second NBN, one-tenth of that speed, looks like a steam locomotive next to Google’s bullet train.”

JC

16 Feb 10 at 12:24 am
When the left runs (and ruins) a country.

It’s from the UK of course.

Cleared: Father who chopped off intruder’s ear with samurai sword after he threatened to rape and kill his family.

A father who defended his family from drug-crazed thugs by wounding one with a Samurai sword has been cleared by a jury.

David Fullard, 47, was prosecuted for attacking the two strangers who forced their way into his home and threatened to rape his partner and kill his two teenage children.

He insisted he was a desperate man acting legally in self-defence and struck out once with the ornamental sword, because it was the only weapon to hand.

The blow almost sliced off the ear of Michael Severs, one of the thugs.

The prosecution refused to accept that his actions amounted to lawful self-defence and argued it was ‘over the top’ to attack a man armed with a knuckleduster by using a ‘battlefield weapon’.

And the offenders?

Yesterday jobless Severs, 22, and Michael Smith, 19, escaped with a suspended prison sentence and 100 hours of community work after admitting affray at the court.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 12:34 am
Eco-nutcase boards whaling ship, attempts citizen’s arrest, isn’t heard from again.

Greego

16 Feb 10 at 12:39 am
John H, at least you’ve given Foucault a shot. The sad point is that the dismissetarians would find more liberty in a page or two of Foucault (or any other French theorist) than exists in the collected
speeches of your local conservative party. If only they could read it.
Foucault does not actually mention modern psychiatry in M&C. He stops, significantly, at Pinel – at the point (according to his argument) at which the madman is taught to be ashamed of himself.

Foucault’s work has some significant flaws, and that of his followers more so. All the same, there are some important points that cannot be dismissed merely because some find French theory a bit wordy for their blog-influenced tastes.

THR

16 Feb 10 at 1:07 am
Venture capital guy explains exactly why the government cannot run health care. The reason? Prices re fictitious right through the system.

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2010/02/15/why_washington_cant_reform_healthcare_97634.html

JC

16 Feb 10 at 3:44 am
Real Climate have put out various analyses on the IPCC, feel free to contribute your own informed opinion

Overall then, the IPCC assessment reports reflect the state of scientific knowledge very well. There have been a few isolated errors, and these have been acknowledged and corrected. What is seriously amiss is something else: the public perception of the IPCC, and of climate science in general, has been massively distorted by the recent media storm. All of these various “gates” – Climategate, Amazongate, Seagate, Africagate, etc., do not represent scandals of the IPCC or of climate science. Rather, they are the embarrassing battle-cries of a media scandal, in which a few journalists have misled the public with grossly overblown or entirely fabricated pseudogates, and many others have naively and willingly followed along without seeing through the scam. It is not up to us as climate scientists to clear up this mess – it is up to the media world itself to put this right again, e.g. by publishing proper analysis pieces like the one of Tim Holmes and by issuing formal corrections of their mistaken reporting. We will follow with great interest whether the media world has the professional and moral integrity to correct its own errors

rog

16 Feb 10 at 7:53 am
Real Climate have put out various analyses on the IPCC, feel free to contribute your own informed opinion
.
rog, realclimate operate as a publicity arm of East Anglia and the IPCC. They’re not even slightly objective. What you’re doing is effectively spamming us with pro-IPCC propaganda.

daddy dave

16 Feb 10 at 8:06 am
Tony Abbott is now being criticised for saying the obvious i.e. ‘the poor have always been with us’.

He was speaking at a conference on homelessness so there is one respect in which he was wrong. Homelessness doesn’t really have much to do with poverty. Most of it is caused by the ludicrous approach to mental illness promoted by the likes of Foucault and Szasz.

Jason Soon

16 Feb 10 at 8:15 am
“What you’re doing is effectively spamming us with pro-IPCC propaganda.”

And a lot of what gets posted here is anti-IPCC propaganda.

What would you consider neutral and objective?

Jarrah

16 Feb 10 at 8:25 am
Dover, there are many forms of ’socialism. Probably there are more forms of socialism than there are forms of conservatism. Until you can approach this topic sensibly, continue to find typos in warmenist blogs like a good fellow.

Oh, golly, there are more ‘forms’ of socialism then there are of conservatism; oh, joy! But do you mean form in the sense of ‘actually existing’ socialism or do you mean Platonic forms of socialism? but I digress. THR, I approached this topic sensibly, I didn’t dismiss him nor would I suggest that someone not read Foucault; I’ve read him, not extensively and mainly only his discussion of power which I found somewhat suggestive but generally incoherent. I merely suggested to JohnH that another theorist was far more concise and interesting. You, however, it seems, cannot speak about a topic without making a derogatory remark about libertarians, conservatives, capitalism, etc. even where they or it are irrelevant to what is being discussed. So far as as your last sentence is concerned, I interpret that as ‘touche’.

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 8:52 am
What would you consider neutral and objective?

The guys at RC are in many instances principals in the scandals that have unfolded. Many of them being Lead Chapter Authors, correspondents in emails, etc. What I would consider neutral and objective would be someone that was neither a persistent critic of the IPCC nor a persistent booster of the IPCC before these scandals arose. They may be witnesses for the prosecution or defence but in no way can we imagine that they are either judge or jury in this case.

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 9:00 am
Pielke Jr responds to RC’s ‘informed’ commentary on the IPCC:

http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2010/02/from-mistake-to-lie.html

That’s why their not ‘neutral and objective’ Jarrah.

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 9:10 am
nice eloquent piece by Brandis (one of the Liberals’ few gifted writers along with Abbott himself) on Abbott

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/opinion/a-true-believer-in-the-community/story-e6frgd0x-1225830656446

He believes in a settled, rooted society of families and citizens living in stable communities bound together by the gossamer threads of voluntary association. It is no accident that Abbott throughout his adult life has spent a great deal of his spare time as a participant in community activity: as a surf lifesaver, volunteer firefighter and active parishioner. What for Rudd are venues for photo opportunities are for Abbott the backdrop to his everyday life.

Ouch!

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 10:05 am
Thinking abut THR and Foucault, THR seems to be employing a questionable form of rhetoric.
What if someone said that there was quite a lot of merit in the phlogiston theory (thanks dd, I had forgotten that one) but you have to read Stahl to understand it. If you haven’t read Stahl you really can’t comment.
I believe phlogiston to be a dopey idea and Stahl to be a totally rejected scientist, but I have never read him. People I respect say he’s not worth the effort (as they do for Forcault) so I don’t bother.
Can the other person say I am not entitled to have an opinion on phlogiston?

ken n

16 Feb 10 at 10:09 am
Neither can you comment on Fractional reserve banking until you’ve completed the complete works of Graeme Bird.

Steve Edney

16 Feb 10 at 10:20 am
Would someone who knows more about such things than I do like to trace through the Medieval Warm Period argument and its importance?
It seems to have been important to Mann’s hockey stick – IPCC3 said:
“… current evidence does not support globally synchronous periods of anomalous cold or warmth over this time frame, and the conventional terms of ‘Little Ice Age’ and ‘Medieval Warm Period’ appear to have limited utility in describing trends in hemispheric or global mean temperature changes in past centuries” (Presumably this was Mann)
In the recent BBC interview Jones said: “There is much debate over whether the Medieval Warm Period was global in extent or not”, which sounds like a back pedal though I have not checked Jones’s previous line on the subject.
Connolly, who has been managing Wikipedia for the Team, says it doesn’t matter anyway:
“the balance is that pretty well everyone agrees that the MWP isn’t the slightest evidence against current GW being anthro? Who put this stuff in?” (from Wikipedia Talk page on MWP)

Will someone deconstruct all this?

ken n

16 Feb 10 at 10:29 am
The snow line moving south since 1990 in the Northern Hemisphere is “consistent with” AGW:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/15/the-snow-line-is-moving-south/#more-16440

Is there anything NOT “consistent with” AGW?

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 10:29 am
No Steve, that far too much to ask of anyone.

ken n

16 Feb 10 at 10:30 am
Yes Rog, stop spamming the freaking site with propaganda from Realclimate. Gavin Schmidt, the guy who runs it, is a bald, short, nasty heavy duty left wing advocate who gave up science years ago.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 10:34 am
Ken, I think the significance is two-fold. If the MWP and the LIA were as significant as sceptics think, then, firstly, natural variability is greater than warmists think; and, secondly, it very likely indicates that climate is not “dominated” by GHGs as most warmists seem to think (if you see changes in temps as large during the MWP and LIA as you do now without any change to GHGs then they may not be the driver warmists imagine them to be).

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 10:39 am
This would make Enron proud:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2010/02/climate-change-torrent-of-eu-money.html

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 10:50 am
Newsweek’s Top Ten conspiracy theories of 2009. Discuss:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/233518/

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 10:54 am
What’s to discuss BirdLab,it’s all true

tal

16 Feb 10 at 11:02 am
Good point Tal. I was, however, disappointed that they missed this one:

http://www.thepandaconspiracy.com/

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 11:06 am
can we find a conspiracy theorist nuttier than Bird?

Yes we can!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

Icke was a well-known BBC television sports presenter and spokesman for the British Green Party, when, at the age of 38, he had an encounter with a psychic who told him he was a healer who had been placed on Earth for a purpose.[5] In April 1991, he announced on the BBC’s Terry Wogan show that he was the son of God—arguing later that he had been misunderstood—and predicted that the world would soon be devastated by tidal waves and earthquakes.[6] The show changed his life, turning him almost overnight from a respected household name into an object of public ridicule.[3]

He nevertheless continued to develop his ideas, and in four books published over seven years—The Robots’ Rebellion (1994), And the Truth Shall Set You Free (1995), The Biggest Secret (1999), and Children of the Matrix (2001)—set out a moral and political worldview that combines New-Age spiritualism with a passionate denunciation of what he sees as totalitarian trends in the modern world. At its heart lies the idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood created and controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie.[7]

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 11:10 am
At its heart lies the idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood created and controls humanity.

Bird would never fall for such rubbish. Its clearly the explodians who created and control humanity not some reptiles.

Steve Edney

16 Feb 10 at 11:13 am
Boxcar Willie is for sure

tal

16 Feb 10 at 11:14 am
BTW jc, how did your sleep test go?
Are you plugged in?

ken n

16 Feb 10 at 11:19 am
Graeme should get his own show on the ABC

tal

16 Feb 10 at 11:19 am
They could call it Birdbrain.

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 11:22 am
BirdLab….Zombie Pandas
http://dancingape.com/images/media/Perry_panda.jpg

tal

16 Feb 10 at 11:24 am
Brains!

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 11:27 am
Newsweek’s Top Ten conspiracy theories of 2009. Discuss
.
I see “Global warming is a hoax” at number two position. Yawn… I think we’ve discussed that one already. The only thing left to discuss is why the Obama-munchkins at Newsweek haven’t gone out of business yet, clinging as they are to the side of the financial cliff.

daddy dave

16 Feb 10 at 11:32 am
Tal, speaking of zombies:

http://irreference.com/pride-and-prejudice-and-zombies/

The movie comes out in 2011.

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 11:41 am
BirdLab did you see this in the hot topics sidebar?
http://irreference.com/how-to-live-with-a-huge-penis-safe-penile-intercourse-techniques/

tal

16 Feb 10 at 11:44 am
It’s as I suspected Tal. There are heaps of people secretly fucking behind my back.

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 11:52 am
It’s as I suspected Tal. There are heaps of people secretly having sex behind my back.

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 11:53 am
Never mind BirdLab I’m sure your turn will come

tal

16 Feb 10 at 12:02 pm
Yes. And I’m sure that one day I’ll have the chance to snort coke with Kate Moss.

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 12:14 pm
John Pilger as a movie critic casts his eye over the Oscars:

On the Iraq War film “The Hurt Locker”:

“Her film offers a vicarious thrill via yet another standard-issue psychopath high on violence in somebody else’s country where the deaths of a million people are consigned to cinematic oblivion.”

On Avatar:

“Non-American (or non-western) humanity is not deemed to have box office appeal, dead or alive. They are the “other” who are allowed, at best, to be saved by “us”. In Avatar, James Cameron’s vast and violent money-printer, 3-D noble savages known as the Na’vi need a good guy American soldier, Sergeant Jake Sully, to save them. This confirms they are “good”. Natch.”

Invictus:

“Clint Eastwood’s unctuous insult to the struggle against apartheid in South Africa.”

There’s no “indignation off” switch in Pilger’s brain, I’m sure:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=10052

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 12:19 pm
good god.

I saw Invictus. There couldn’t be a more respectful tribute to Mandela right down to his flawed humanity with Freeman’s excellent acting.

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 12:22 pm
I really want to see Invictus, but Matt Damon? I just can’t do it. Wayne Smith in The Australian also says it pushes things to the bounds of disbelief by showing the Jaapies actually moving the ball towards the wing via passing! That’s just too much.

Infidel Tiger

16 Feb 10 at 12:30 pm
I’d like to see it, but after Team America and the shit they did to Damon makes me think I could never take him seriously again. Parker & co almost ruined his career.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWTzyU5MFgM

JC

16 Feb 10 at 12:38 pm
Anyone fancy a nice frock?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_kxsudfmsR21qz9qooo1_r2_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1266369706&Signature=5VYdQM29yhDjpR%2FRz9bZbJrjXL8%3D

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 12:39 pm
Debbie/homer is now infesting Andrew Norton’s blog. I feel so sorry for him.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 12:39 pm
THR

Now, I am – largely – on your side against psychiatry, but on the issue of ‘irrational think’ often the psychiatrists do have a point. Take ‘anxiety.’ Now, anxiety is the physiological reaction in the present, reacting to an imagined harm/danger, in the future. And it is not just the more ‘rational’ fight or flight response if we say, see a snake, or a gang of menacing youths in Footscray.

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 12:41 pm
Pilger needs a serious course of uppers. The dude seems seriously depressed.

This isn’t a time to be critical of John as he needs a great deal of sympathy while going though these terrible black periods in his life.

(John, if you’re reading this, get well soon buddy).

JC

16 Feb 10 at 12:42 pm
Well Clint Eastwood (not to be confused with Eastwood Homer) has a few more movies in him yet.
But he obviously likes Matt Damon. His next one also has Damon in it.

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 12:43 pm
You’re fired:

Donald Trump: Climate campaigner Al Gore ‘should be stripped of Nobel Peace Prize after record snow storms’.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 12:46 pm
Rats bailing by the bushel:

Democrat big shot Evan Bayh will not seek re-elction.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 12:48 pm
JC

Putting aside Obamacare for the minute, do you think our Medicare is guilty of socially-damaging ‘mispricing’.

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 12:49 pm
“Non-American (or non-western) humanity is not deemed to have box office appeal, dead or alive.”

So Pilger hasn’t seen Slumdog Millsionaire? That man is such a depressing goose. Why anyone gives him the time of day I’ll never know.

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 12:50 pm
I clicked on CL’s link then one click led to another and I ended up here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1251199/Ex-Playboy-model-Louise-Glover-walks-free-toilet-attack.html

A former Playboy Model of the Year who launched a ‘vicious and unprovoked attack’ on another woman in a jealous row over her husband walked free from court today.

Louise Glover, 27, flew into a rage in a nightclub after accusing the daughter of 80s popstar Paul Hardcastle of flirting with her husband.

She struck Maxine Hardcastle’s head against a toilet rim up to 10 times and tried to push her head down the lavatory – tearing out clumps of hair – during a night out in Brighton, East Sussex

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 12:51 pm
That murderous academic, Amy Bishop, was “a far-left political extremist who was ‘obsessed’ with President Obama to the point of being off-putting.”

Figures.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 12:52 pm
CL:

Trump ought to be more concerned about the plight of his long suffering bondholders than anything else.

The dude has never seen a final capital repayment in a junk bond issuance in his life without fired to the bankruptcy court and getting the bond holders to make concessions.

He’s a dick. What I’ll never understand is why anyone would ever lend him any money as he never pays it back.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 12:53 pm
oops NOT fired… First going

JC

16 Feb 10 at 12:55 pm
Not to mention his long suffering hair, JC. Who’s his barber anyway, Gillard’s boyfriend?

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 12:57 pm
Govt, unions slam coalition’s IR policy.

But Rudd’s worker electrocution policy is A-OK.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 1:02 pm
I can actually tell you who his barber was, Cl. It was an old Italian barber in the Plaza hotel.

He was a fucking awful barber ( as you can see from Trump) and ruined your hair. (You like that trivia)

JC

16 Feb 10 at 1:03 pm
That’s hair? I thought it was a beaver.

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 1:04 pm
An old ugly beaver

tal

16 Feb 10 at 1:09 pm
Another rat deserts a sinking ship.

Senator Evan Bayh, the Indiana Democrat, said today that he would not seek a third term in Congress, a move that gives Republicans yet another opportunity to pick up a Senate seat and gives Democrats some fresh anxiety about whether they are losing the party’s center.

Is it possible that all the Demolitionists “retire” except Harry and Botox madam.

Bayh’s departure is pretty shocking.

Apparently the story about the early resignations is that they can keep more cash and get better benefits than if they lost so that in itself is a good indicator in terms of how insiders think about their fortunes.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 1:10 pm
ou, however, it seems, cannot speak about a topic without making a derogatory remark about libertarians, conservatives, capitalism, etc. even where they or it are irrelevant to what is being discussed. So far as as your last sentence is concerned, I interpret that as ‘touche’.

Dover, you are continually invoking ‘socialism’ and lecturing me on what it is I supposedly believe. It’s unhelpful for discussion, and totally inaccurate in most cases. It gets the short shrift it deserves.

Now, I am – largely – on your side against psychiatry, but on the issue of ‘irrational think’ often the psychiatrists do have a point.

I agree, there is something about anxiety etc. that can be called ‘irrational’ (Aristotle himself termed it phusis) but this nonetheless presupposes that there is some magical ‘rational’ way of thinking that requires a psychiatrist/psychologist to inculcate it in a subject.

Going back to Foucault – I think it’s worth being particularly harsh on libertarians here as Foucault is a kind of blindspot for them. Foucault documented and theorised the myriad forms of (largely State) coercion that exist in the ‘helping professions’ and the ‘human sciences’. This is not reducible to the ‘anti-psychiatry’ of Laing or Szasz, since Foucault’s quarrel is not with the nosology of disorders per se.
The response to some here to Foucault (equating him with ‘anti-science’) is sheer, blockheaded, kneejerk anti-intellectualism. The same thing could be observed at a recent Foucault thread at ScepticLawyer’s, where there was all sorts of sneering dismissal of Foucault among people who clearly had neither read nor understood the basic material. Ditto a recent thread at Jason’s where he decided to mock Badiou’s book on the philosophy of number on the basis of a blurb.

Some of you may be familiar with a Radiohead track – ‘fitter, happier, more productive, etc.’. In a nutshell, these are the goals of 95% of contemporary psychotherapy, self-help, etc. The role of monitoring a ‘disordered’ patient has moved from the State and been displaced onto the patient himself – he now has to do with CBT ‘homework’, cataloguing his ‘irrational thoughts’ in order for his therapist to rationalise them away. This is clearly a form of coercion that is more ideological than medicinal. This is the sort of thing that I think makes Foucault relevant. But you’ll never get that far if you’re mired in anti-French intellectual laziness that sneers at every writing more difficult than a blog post.

THR

16 Feb 10 at 1:33 pm
Re: David Icke – one of his themes is that the reptile creatures arrange satanic murders and ritual sexual abuse. There are large numbers of individuals who turn up on Australian chat rooms reporting such things. I attempted some research on this a while back. There are rumours about a number of Australian celebrities and politicians who are presumed to be sex offenders and murderers (if not necessarily lizard men).

THR

16 Feb 10 at 1:35 pm
Hey Dover…

I read your link about those dudes making fast money from Global warming hysteria and the EU doling out millions of dollars in fees to these firms.

This seems to be a huge gravy train. How the hell does one get on this racket?

JC

16 Feb 10 at 1:36 pm
What’s all that about, THR? Is it some sort of satanic cult thing?

Dude you need to stay away from those people and not go near them as you could end up being the ritual. Not kidding.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 1:40 pm
Jc, I’m not endorsing any of their beliefs. It was a fascinating topic to read about, however, as there were a small number of quite credible, professional people who were lending their voice to these views. There were also some legitimate concerns about how authorities dealt with a whole range of sexual abuse cases. Unfortunately for the credible people, there were an army of cranks and conspiracy theorists riding their coat-tails. Most of the sites have been pulled down, I believe, because they were rather defamatory in nature.

THR

16 Feb 10 at 1:42 pm
Sounds like it has a touch of the discredited repressed memory syndrome about it to me, THR.

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 1:44 pm
I’m not suggesting you’re endorsing them, but you said you were thinking of conducting research on them.

I was expressing concern for your welfare as the site doesn’t want to end up without its token Marxist as a result of research/ritual thingi that’s gone bad.

I was expressing concern for you, THR.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 1:47 pm
Do your research on Lardulous as he’s harmless enough when not under the influence of 47 drinks after each other and would be an ideal candidate for a serious study on the subject of badly wired brains.

And Lardulous would love the attention.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 1:50 pm
I’n not so sure it’s a wiring problem JC. I think the basic OS is stuffed.

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 2:04 pm
Dover, you are continually invoking ’socialism’ and lecturing me on what it is I supposedly believe. It’s unhelpful for discussion, and totally inaccurate in most cases. It gets the short shrift it deserves.

Its invoked because the conversation generally warrants it or it is already being discussed; I very rarely invoke its ‘spectre’ talking about something entirely unrelated to it. So far as you’re own beliefs are concerned, I merely point to the beliefs generally held by socialists of whatever ‘form’ they happen to be; if they are different from your’s you should point it out.

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 2:20 pm
Excellent piece in Reason on markets.

The Fable of Market Meritocracy
Markets don’t reward smart people. They reward value.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/02/12/the-fable-of-market-meritocrac

JC

16 Feb 10 at 2:23 pm
Barack Obama statue removed from Jakarta park.

Don’t click if you cannot emotionally cope with a truly ~~hilarious~~ sad image.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 2:33 pm
Good: Hockey announces that Medibank Private would be sold by an Abbott government:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/16/2821151.htm

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 2:38 pm
Opposition treasury spokesman Joe Hockey has announced that a Coalition government would sell private health insurance company Medibank Private.

It was a previous Coalition policy to privatise Medibank Private.

Mr Hockey told the National Press Club there was no reason to keep the insurer in Government hands and said the proceeds would be used to pay off debt.

“There is no longer a need for Government-owned health insurers to ensure competition in the market,” he said.

“Medibank Private operates as if it is in the private sector, so it should be sold to the private sector.”

Mr Hockey says he expects the organisation could be sold for up to $4.5 billion.

“We believe in smaller government and we believe in less government debt,” he said.

“So I announce today that the Coalition will sell Medibank Private and use every dollar from the proceeds to help pay down Labor’s debt.”

Good work, Joe. Watch the ABC report on this as though it was worse than electrocuting people and burning houses down.

He kills two birds with one stone. He reminds people how they they stand and also reminds them of the accumulated debt problem we are getting ourselves into as a result of these trogs.

Keep it up.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 3:22 pm
I have to say I’m impressed by Abbott’s unwillingness to play the small target game. He’s saying what he wants to do – even the contentious IR stuff that so excites Gillard and Burrow. (Who, of course, fully support Pete The Torch).

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 3:26 pm
Abbott is one fit dude.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 3:34 pm
I can already imagine the Libs attack ads: Abbott, he-man; Rudd, pussy.

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 3:42 pm
Abbott: community conscious
Rudd: self conscious.

John H.

16 Feb 10 at 3:45 pm
More on Abbott’s fitness regime. The bloke’s a machine!

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/bike-goliath-leaves-others-in-wake-20100208-nl3n.html

Infidel Tiger

16 Feb 10 at 3:47 pm
Abbott: Good bloke to have a drink with.
Rudd: Would ban drinking.

Infidel Tiger

16 Feb 10 at 3:50 pm
Space rock contains organic molecular feast

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8516319.stm

Fascinating, it was Crick who speculated on panspermia, that life came to earth, did not evolve on earth.

John H.

16 Feb 10 at 3:50 pm
Abbott’s main negative to date is his stupid climate policy involving bondoogling money to plant trees and other stupid stuff.

This is far outweighed by his positives
1) as CL says, his fearless big picture stuff
2) daring to use the ‘N’ word (nuclear)
3) workchoices
4) privatisation
5) he is the sort of leader you want to have in tough geopolitical times

Now if only he could come out more strongly against Conroy’s internet plan

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 3:51 pm
So whats this constant reference to physical attributes JC, I thought you said it was a leftist weakness?

rog

16 Feb 10 at 4:07 pm
Andrew Bolt damning with faint praise

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/been_there_before_and_survived_beautifully

Computer scientist Tim Lambert may be vituperative, deceptive, a cherrypicker, an ideologue, a misrepresenter and a Manichean conspiracist only too keen to smear a sceptic as a crook who lies for Exxon’s dollars. Oddly enough, he seems to have restrained his worst and most suspect traits to offer Lord Monckton a genuine debate at last.

True, Lambert is hardly the best authority on Lambert, but his summary of the debate at least indicates he landed a few blows, which sceptics who were there have conceded in comments on various threads is indeed the case, even if they scoff at Lambert’s claim that he “wiped the floor” with Monckton.

Anyway, this is how debate should be, and just to read even Lambert’s admittedly partisan account is to see how much faster we are likely to arrive at truths, or at least save ourselves from error, if we promote debate and insist it be held in good faith. If nothing else, it encourages a sceptic to publicise the point of view of a warmist.

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 4:08 pm
Abbott: Good bloke to have a drink with.

He’s friend of a buddy of mine who says he’s exactly what you see on TV and likes a beer.

Yes, dis the Controy plan.

The idea of controlling the internet in this country is a sick joke. The funniest thing I’ve seen for a while is the attack performed on government websites and Controy declaring it was “irresponsible”.

It wasn’t irresponsible at all. It was to make fun at his ridiculous attempt in trying to control what we want.

How on earth can you control what are now basically “controllable” people in a place that has the utmost disrespect for political leaders without it becoming a police state. You can’t.

How can you control a place where someone put up a website called ‘ Conroy is a c..t”.com?

The suggestion is laughable.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 4:09 pm
“fearless big picture stuff”: going in early on IR is meant to be brave? I just see it as a unusual fondness for giving the Labor advertising hacks months and months to develop the best attack ads in response…

All I can see him doing is endearing himself more and more to his Liberal “base” and removing soft Labor cross over votes.

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 4:16 pm
So whats this constant reference to physical attributes JC, I thought you said it was a leftist weakness?

I’m not being a hypocrite, Rog. Judge me the same way as you’d judge lefties. I have weaknesses. I know that.

I find it more than a little hard thinking this group of dweebs is going to save the world from itself. It looks more like a bunch of guys that never scored at college and a reprise of “Revenge of the Nerds”.

http://www.adlerpodcast.com/images/clim2-25-06.jpg

The nasty, little bald one on the left is Gavin.

Quite frankly if this was the group that saved the world/humanity I’d rather it went and some other species eventually took over…. even cockroaches.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 4:17 pm
I can’t quite make out the one on the right as he’s hiding behind all the fluff. Collectively their posture is abominable.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 4:19 pm
DB dismisses RC by saying “read Pielke”

Pielke raises the issue of the Muir-Wood paper and says it doesnt exist, or something like that

Pelke then calls RC liars, scoundrels, blaggards etc etc

Muir-Wood comes out and releases an FAQ on the subject saying the IPCC’s analysis was essentially correct

Does Pielke have an agenda?

rog

16 Feb 10 at 4:22 pm
You should put a picture of yourself up JC so that I can compare it with….cockroaches?

rog

16 Feb 10 at 4:24 pm
Steve:

They tried the soft left stuff with Turnbull and the other guy whose name I’ve already forgotten.

It ended up in shocking poll numbers.

I think people will understand that selling medibank private to partially pay down all the debt these clowns have accumulated is on balance the right thing to do.

People are also figuring that Gillard has been cooking chicken soup for the union movement.

And they also realize that the ETS is a sham.

“Pull yourself together”, Steve.

Stop acting like such a beta all the freaking time.

Turnbull should stick around, act remorseful a little, try and get along with his colleagues and he may end up being the Treasurer and doing a fabulous job.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 4:24 pm
I’m not saving the world, Rog. My pic would be basically irrelevant.

Gavin and that bunch of dweebs are suggesting they’re doing so.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 4:26 pm
rog, I ask this in all seriousness. Are you the same person who was commenting under the name “rog” 12 months ago?
The reason I ask is that it’s kind of implausible to shift from one coherent worldview to another in so short a space of time.

daddy dave

16 Feb 10 at 4:32 pm
I agree with whoever it was who recently suggested that much of the government’s current image problem could be dealt with by a Gillard takeover of the leadership. I know it’s not going to happen, but I reckon much of the sudden turnaround feeling is just people getting tired of Ruddspeak, and realising in an election year that many of his promises have not been fulfilled.

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 4:33 pm
Ruddspeak

Abbott is a clever bloke but makes no attempt to convey this. Rudd goes to great lengths to be perceived as an intellectual. If the media turns on Rudd they could have great fun attacking his pretensions. Lefties seem to take this intelligence thing very seriously. Some months ago one leftie said to me: Within 5 minutes I can tell if a person is intelligent. I scoffed at him. This leftie even likes attacking bogans, laughing at them because of the apparent lack of intelligence. I find that attitude quite disgusting, some of my best friends were most certainly not the sharpest tools in the shed. Yet if one were to attack, for example, aborigines, this very same person would be first to make accusations of racism.

Don’t get me wrong, smarts are great, but even though I am a leftie I much prefer the disposition of Abbott. Rudd uses his smarts to impress people, Abbott uses his smarts to get things done.

John H.

16 Feb 10 at 4:35 pm
DD
I’m very confident it’s the same rog.

Same prose style, usually short pointed sentences followed by a link.

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 4:38 pm
I’ve just read THomas Sowell’s Intellectuals and Society John, he touches on your point alot

tal

16 Feb 10 at 4:40 pm
John H: I agree with what you say about Rudd and lefties generally. However, I must say that the polling on climate science, and the Liberal’s “base” being led by the nose by Bolt and Jones on the issue, has given me the uncomfortable feeling that the lefties do have an intelligence edge on one particular issue! And that annoys me, because I am normally a Coalition supporter.

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 4:42 pm
John H

Abbott was a public intellectual long before Rudd. He used to write for The Bulletin and Quadrant. I remember reading book reviews by him in Quadrant when I was a subscriber years ago. He is one of the few Coalition politicians who can write well.

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 4:43 pm
He’s friend of a buddy of mine who says he’s exactly what you see on TV and likes a beer.

The in-laws are chummy with Abbott, and by all accounts, he does have some good qualities, like tough-mindedness. The ‘man of action’, ‘conviction politics’ stuff is nothing more than political schtick, however. Abbott is a professional politician through and through, and he practices just as much spin as Rudd, albeit, of a different sort.

Clearly, IR ‘reform’ is at the top of his agenda. This is what he announced the day after he got the leadership. One would have thought that Australians were not exactly clamouring for unfair dismissal to be got rid of. Not Abbott.

THR

16 Feb 10 at 4:45 pm
Rog has quite clearly suffered a recent trauma in his life. It is quite possible that unbeknowst to his life partner he has staked their entire life savings in carbon credits. Alternatively, he is Malcolm Turnbull’s gay lover and a rejection of Turnbull is a slap in Rog’s face too. The third option is that he is a contrarian cock, with the personality of a German accountant. Either way, the rejection of the ETS has hit him hard – right in the goolies.

Infidel Tiger

16 Feb 10 at 4:47 pm
DB dismisses RC by saying “read Pielke”

Yes Rog, he did. I read it too.

Pielke raises the issue of the Muir-Wood paper and says it doesnt exist, or something like that
Pelke then calls RC liars, scoundrels, blaggards etc etc
Muir-Wood comes out and releases an FAQ on the subject saying the IPCC’s analysis was essentially correct

No Rog. Back of the class please. The central point of Pielke’s essay was to demonstrate Gavin Schmidt’s underhanded dishonesty and the tactics he uses to cover up serious transgressions from the hysterical side of the AGW discussion. Roger politely points out the “mistake” he casually dismisses doesn’t seem like a mistake at all.

You’d think that after what’s gone on activist and advocate, Gavin Schmidt would lay off the lying dissembling bullshit and try to turn over a new leaf. Look like he can’t.

Does Pielke have an agenda?

Sure he does. It’s to get lying pikers like Schmidt and soft porn authors out of the debate while leaving it to honest scientists to figure out. You’ll thank Roger in the end.

By the way, Pielke isn’t a “denier”.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 4:51 pm
DB dismisses RC by saying “read Pielke”

Lets see what Pielke Jr wrote:

If you want to understand why so many people have lost trust in the climate science community, due to the acts of a few, just take a look at what Real Climate has done to spin the disaster issue regarding the IPCC. They write in a post that (emphasis added):

WG2 did include a debatable graph provided by Robert Muir-Wood (although not in the main report but only as Supplementary Material). It cited a paper by Muir-Wood as its source although that paper doesn’t include the graph, only the analysis that it is based on.

As readers here well know, the analysis of the Muir-Wood mystery graph does not appear in the cited source (or any other). Real Climate’s claim is easily shown to be wrong. Perhaps they made an honest mistake. I pointed this fact out to them and asked that they correct the error:

This statement in your post is in error:

“It cited a paper by Muir-Wood as its source although that paper doesn’t include the graph, only the analysis that it is based on.”

The cited paper does not include the analysis that the graph is based on. In fact, it includes no discussion of temperature trends and disasters. You can confirm this for yourself:
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/sparc/research/projects/extreme_events/munich_workshop/muirwood.pdf

You should correct the error in this post.

Real Climate has decided to leave the error uncorrected. When does an honest error become something different?

Instead of just correcting the factual record Real Climate responds to my request with the following:

You’ve been working hard to scandalize your personal quibbles with IPCC here – how consistent is this with your self-proclaimed role as “honest broker”?

Lies on top of lies. Not good. If they want to understand why their community has lost so much credibility, they need only look to their own actions.

RC’s conduct shouldn’t fill anyone with confidence.

Muir-Wood comes out and releases an FAQ on the subject saying the IPCC’s analysis was essentially correct

You miss Pielke’s point. The question isn’t essentially about whether the Muir-Wood paper was mischaracterised, but about it being singly used to counter the thrust of all other studies that indicate no statistically significant trend for globalised disaster losses.

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 4:53 pm
Lets just follow JC’s logic and try to make some sense of it.

Leftists are condemned for making personal comments about the way people look

But JC is allowed to because he is irrelevant

So according to JC only leftists are relevant

rog

16 Feb 10 at 5:03 pm
Muir Wood disagrees with you DB

rog

16 Feb 10 at 5:04 pm
Jason asked the question

how many pedros are there?

i presume that none of the pedros here so far is pedro the lawyer (what happened to him?)

Pedro the lawyer is hard at work earning money.

Sinclair Davidson

16 Feb 10 at 5:05 pm
Rog:

Wrong logic. Back of the class please and this time don’t think for a moment you’ll be treading water with the smart kids as you won’t be allowed at the front against for the rest of the year.

In any even you’re a fine one to talk after accusing people of being child molesters.

You moron, Rog.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 5:06 pm
Muir Wood disagrees with you DB

Lord jeez you’re truly fucking stupid Rog.

Here:
You miss Pielke’s point. The question isn’t essentially about whether the Muir-Wood paper was mischaracterised, but about it being singly used to counter the thrust of all other studies that indicate no statistically significant trend for globalised disaster losses.

I has nothing to do with the paper being write or wrong, or even if the paper “disagrees with you DB”.

Not stupid comment will have you in remedial, one grade below and that’s just a start.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 5:10 pm
Muir Wood disagrees with you DB

Although I’m not sure where the disagreement lies, I’m nevertheless flattered.

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 5:15 pm
It was inevitable.

Mark B, CEO of Media Corp Advisory services writes a pretentious post on Tony Abbott’s comment on how ‘the poor will always be with us’. He as usual reads a fricking 500 page thesis topic in Brandis’ pretty common sensical remarks that Abbott in practice is very much a community minded person:

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/02/16/the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-abbotts-brutopia/

Indeed, though it’s unclear how much Brandis knows about the history and political philosophy of communitarianism, one point of criticism has always been that there’s a heavy dose of authoritarianism and conformism inherent in its construction of community – it’s premised as much on social exclusion as on inclusion. That’s very apparent in many aspects of Third Way politics – from Blair’s Britain to Latham’s vision for Australia. So, too, many of the debates in Anglophone political theory in the 1990s revolved around perceived frictions between its premise of consensual values and norms on one hand and both individual liberty and multiculturalism on the other hand.

jtfsoon

16 Feb 10 at 5:18 pm
Labor’s IR campaign will be interesting – especially as the class action-like court case against Pete The Torch is all over the news.

I can imagine the leaders’ debate:

KR: Mr Abbott would take Australia back to the days when…

TA: … workers died on the job?

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 5:22 pm
I read it too.

I particularly love the last bit:

But as an erstwhile apostle of Malcolm Turnbull as a moderniser, and of the value of the liberal tradition in Liberal-ism, he might also care to consider that there might be as Brutopian a streak in communitarian conservatism as anything to be found in Kevin Rudd’s portrait of neo-liberalism.
lol

I can’t believe he wrote that crap.

MarK B from LP obviously found Rudd’s appalling little essays a good read.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 5:24 pm
Steve

This US import of so-called “bases” is a crock. Australian society has changed far too much through immigration, that any “base” that might have existed in 1975 has long gone. The percentage of the electorate who are ‘swinging voters’ is too high for such a notion as ‘base’ to have any meaning here.

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 5:36 pm
Does anyone know if Mark got his PhD? I don’t recall any “announcement” to that effect at LP. Does he insist on writing this way because he is still trying to get it?

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 5:38 pm
Peter, it’s a term lots of people still use here. I thought it just a convenient way of saying “rusted on supporters” of Party X.

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 5:40 pm
“Rusted on voters” are by definition ‘useful idiots’ and do not need to be pandered to. Their votes are a lock.

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 5:42 pm
I disagree, Peter. I term is basically describing core supporters, rain or shine.

There is no good reason to vote labor at the next NSW election yet you will find that core support won’t go below a certain level as the base will rather drink castor oil for a month than vote libs.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 5:42 pm
An infelicitous phrase, given his colleague Peter Garrett’s recent achievements:

FINANCE Minister Lindsay Tanner today dismissed a Coalition promise to sell Medibank Private to pay off debt, arguing a “fire sale” was not sound policy.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 5:45 pm
Who knows, Steve. He just writes pretentious drivel you can always poke fun at.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 5:45 pm
I think Mark has his PhD – don’t recall any announcement, but he did do the presubmission defense presentation about a year ago.

Sinclair Davidson

16 Feb 10 at 5:46 pm
If SSRN is anything to go by it looks like SRL is making good progress too.

Sinclair Davidson

16 Feb 10 at 5:48 pm
Does anybody else just drop their jaw whenever Australian academics offer their electoral prognostications or sociological insights? Unlike the US, where there is a revolving door between the White House and bureaucracies and Harvard/Princeton/Stanford/MIT/Columbia/Chicago/the think tanks and so on, no such relationship exists in Australia.

You really have to wonder just why do we bother with departments of Political Science, Sociology, etc. Don’t these people realize that their echo chambers of dozens of academic clones have nothing to do with Australian politics and societal machinations? Surely they suffer from something that DSM-IV identifies as a very serious malady indeed?

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 5:51 pm
#

I think Mark has his PhD – don’t recall any announcement, but he did do the presubmission defense presentation about a year ago.

.
Maybe he crashed there. I expected he’d a announced it. He used to post on it a lot replete with pix of Derrida books. Yikes!

Adrien

16 Feb 10 at 5:55 pm
I see that he does have it. From a LinkIn site:

“His research currently focuses on online urbanism, distributed knowledge and urban creativity. Mark’s recently awarded PhD examines the relation between the utopian imagination and social action. His doctoral research was conducted in the Humanities Program at QUT.”

Online urbanism? Online onanism, that I could understand.

http://au.linkedin.com/in/mbahnisch

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 5:55 pm
Steve

Excuse the French, but F*** me dead! How does this shite ever get funded?

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 5:57 pm
Tanner is a lying liar.

I use a stock search engine that ranks various industries and while the US health-care (plans) has been battered of late industry ranking has the sector at 27th out 202 industry categories which would hardly point to a fire sale on present metrics. Giving due consideration that the Australian market is trading at around the same as US multiples and the sector is not suffering under political risk as it is there the Australian government would receive a fairly decent price for Medibank private.

Tanner was also bullshitting on Q&A last night.

What they now do, of course, is talk about the gross debt figures when, in fact, the next debt figure, because the Commonwealth Government is both a lender and a borrower – both a lender and a borrower – the net debt figure, of course, is only about 20 billion or so at the moment and there is a trajectory out of debt already. In the budget papers you’ll see that the current deficit that’s projected for this year is the peak and it goes down and down and down and, yes, we’ve got to stick to discipline to deliver it, but there is a trajectory out of debt within five years to get to surplus and then roughly another five or six years to actually repay the debt. We’ve got to stick to that but we will.

What grossly dishonest Tanner leaves out of course is that the previous government left them with an accumulated surplus of around $65 billion which they’ve worked though faster than a addict funding a free stash of coke.

The actual turn round has been closer to $85 billion in just over two short years.

Sadly Joyce never clipped Tanner over the ears about that bullshit, which he should have.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 6:01 pm
If SSRN is anything to go by it looks like SRL is making good progress too.

I didn’t know SRL was a CSU boy, Sinc.

dover_beach

16 Feb 10 at 6:03 pm
Be nice – completing a PhD is a wonderful achievement and congratulations are in order.

Sinclair Davidson

16 Feb 10 at 6:09 pm
Heh heh. I thought Larvatus Prodeo was the only pretentious title he had come up with. But I note from the linkedin site above, his experience includes:

Managing Director
Quod Est Demonstrandum

(Management Consulting industry)

He’s taking his Catholic latin to places it was never meant to go.

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 6:12 pm
I don’t know Sinclair: would the world notice if there was never another sociology PhD awarded?

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 6:14 pm
I actually don’t mean to sound too harsh about Mark, as he is a lefty Catholic who still did not support “rebel” priest Peter Kennedy at St Mary’s South Brisbane (to my surprise). It’s just his pretentious way of slipping into PhD sociology speak that annoys.

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 6:18 pm
In the circles I move in that would be an improvement. But a PhD is more than just the acquisition of knowledge, it demonstrates the disciple to follow a process of knowledge acquisition, organisational skills, and mental toughness. If that sounds pretentious, well it probably is.

Sinclair Davidson

16 Feb 10 at 6:22 pm
yeah same here Steve.

Mark means well and is a bright guy. However his ordeal with his PhD seems to have left a lasting mark on his prose and he has the tendency to sweep over into moral outrage over nothing a bit too much

Jason Soon

16 Feb 10 at 6:24 pm
In Birdian Year Zero, PhDs like Mark and Sinclar would be forced to work as plumbers, electricians and hairdressers. You tell me which is worse, Steve

Jason Soon

16 Feb 10 at 6:27 pm
He’s probably bored now that the PhD is out of the way and he doesn’t have to worry about it anymore.

Sinclair Davidson

16 Feb 10 at 6:27 pm
That’s right, Sinc. PhD theses are incredibly difficult to start, to continue, and to finish. Mark B’s efforts are to be congratulated, even by those who oppose almost everything he says. Like me.

That said, QUT has put it online for our reading pleasure.

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/30134/1/Mark_Bahnisch_Thesis.pdf

Random, out-of-context quote:

The thesis also seeks to build upon the work of Derrida and a select band of his epigones and collaborators in phenomenalising “universal structures of experience” which do not provide Kantian conditions of possibility for action but which enable and disable action and thought at the same time. In passing, the thesis reads Derrida largely outside the disciplinary and ideological frames through which his oeuvre has been interpreted, by going back to the texts themselves and observing – in the midst of such texts – the movements and lines of thought they trace. Surprisingly, this is a more radical move than might be thought, as deconstruction has all too readily been subjected to various reductions and enclosures, rather than played out as a work that is both textual and always already there in the modes of thought which underpin social action. Aside from the merit of such a play of constellations itself, the thesis has the potential to intervene – through the re-inscription of quasi-transcendentals themselves even at the moment at which they face ruin – in misreadings which are prevalent in most appropriations of Derrida’s phenomenology. (Incidentally, by expropriating Derrida from his disciplinary appropriations, it is also possible to make a more fruitful contribution to the debates
unified under the phrases “Derrida and politics” and “Derrida and religion” than is currently available.) This in turn opens up new perspectives, possibilities and analytics for a phenomenological social and political theory.

Jarrah

16 Feb 10 at 6:30 pm
Climate change sculpture at the Copenhagen Haj

http://reason.com/archives/2010/02/12/reading-a-sculpture

JC

16 Feb 10 at 6:31 pm
OK, OK, I’ve been far too kind. Where is my pistol?!!

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 6:33 pm
You really have to admire somebody who can keep that up for 100,000 words.

Sinclair Davidson

16 Feb 10 at 6:33 pm
Gee thanks, Jarrah. The header caught my eye as a must read this eve after dinner.

“The Phenomenology of Utopia: Reimagining the Political”

JC

16 Feb 10 at 6:34 pm
You really have to admire somebody who can keep that up for 100,000 words.

I’ll say.

However Lardulous (Bird) could write 200,000 words in 2 hours. He’s done there here. He’s living proof that quality is not quality.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 6:36 pm
That thesis extract wreaks of very poor supervision. A committed supervisor would have attacked that with his red marker most viciously.

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 6:37 pm
One thing we know for sure: if he lives into the distant future, Mark is definitely destined to be in the “B” ship. (Refer Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Part 6, for those who don’t recall.)

steve from brisbane

16 Feb 10 at 6:38 pm
In passing, the thesis reads Derrida largely outside the disciplinary and ideological frames through which his oeuvre has been interpreted, by going back to the texts themselves and observing – in the midst of such texts – the movements and lines of thought they trace. Surprisingly, this is a more radical move than might be thought, as deconstruction has all too readily been subjected to various reductions and enclosures, rather than played out as a work that is both textual and always already there in the modes of thought which underpin social action. Aside from the merit of such a play of constellations itself, the thesis has the potential to intervene – through the re-inscription of quasi-transcendentals themselves even at the moment at which they face ruin – in misreadings which are prevalent in most appropriations of Derrida’s phenomenology. (Incidentally, by expropriating Derrida from his disciplinary appropriations, it is also possible to make a more fruitful contribution to the debates
unified under the phrases “Derrida and politics” and “Derrida and religion” than is currently available.) This in turn opens up new perspectives, possibilities and analytics for a phenomenological social and political theory.

Why not just say:

I’m going to go back and read what this frog tosser actually wrote which is actually more radical than it sounds, because too many of you wankers haven’t done that. By doing this I clear up some long held misreadings of Jackie boy

Jason Soon

16 Feb 10 at 6:42 pm
Does anyone know what percentage og PhD’s are in sociology?

ken n

16 Feb 10 at 6:43 pm
To be fair, that’s just a small part of the introduction outlining one facet of what he’s going to do in the rest. But it is illustrative of the tenor and writing style. I’ve usually found PhDs to be tough reading, this one is no different.

Jarrah

16 Feb 10 at 6:49 pm
If the writer gets a Phd for those 100,000 words, the reader should get a Victoria Cross.

Infidel Tiger

16 Feb 10 at 6:50 pm
I used to write shit like that… when writing uni essays. There’s a certain lingo that you use to suck up to the profs.

I never “phenomenolalized” though.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 7:07 pm
A 100,000 word book review, eh?

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 7:10 pm
JC

I wrote some essays like that in 1st year, but mercifully had teachers who did not spare the red pen!

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 7:11 pm
You really have to admire somebody who can keep that up for 100,000 words.
.
When I did honours I would write clear sentences and then go to a thesaurus to find the most complicated way of restating it. Honestly.
.
Derrida is a charlatan who basically writes a lot of opaque gibberish so that no-one notices that all he’s doing is regurgitating what Modernists like Brecht and Magritte said more plainly and enjoyably.
.
The shorter Derrida. Now Jack go get a job.

Adrien

16 Feb 10 at 7:17 pm
Peter:

I was only 1/2 joshing. But you sort of get into the groove of academ speak when writing essays.

Years later I pick up an old essay read it through and shake my head wondering how I could have written such total flowery swill. It’s disgusting.

80′s were also a funny period in corporate speak too as people used flowery writing in their “memo’s” (they called it).

Mercifully traders rarely have to write crap other than sign off of the daily P/L.

My humble opinion is that language has changed a lot since the use of emails and the web.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 7:26 pm
I’d love to read any of Debbie’s old stuff.

Hey Homer, post it on the web and let the fellas review your academic stuff.

Go on. Be a nice dude for a change.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 7:29 pm
Homer, did you write anything like this.

“The phenomenology of the corridor of power walking and how it relates to the Keynesian multiplier between 1933 to 1936 democratic Germany.”

JC

16 Feb 10 at 7:33 pm
JC

I was very lucky to take courses taught my Americans, who really pounded into my head that that sort of language screams insecurity. I got to the stage where my tone would be apologetic if I ever used jargon. My grades increased dramatically. If you understand the stuff, and can express it in itty-bitty words, the marker is so relieved they go overboard on the double-ticks.

Peter Patton

16 Feb 10 at 7:40 pm
Peter

I was extremely insecure as I was really lazy and hardly ever did any work, hence writing crap. I was groping at anything that would help me get gentleman “C’s. Anything less and may have been difficult getting a job, I thought. Anything more and it meant I was working far, far too hard.

What absolutely shocked me was that you were never asked for subject scores going on job interviews. It was just taken as a given that you passed and that was it. This of course meant that one could have gilded one’s marks lower doing less work as potential future employers never gave a shit.

It was a huge let down for me. All that work for nothing.

The finance math stuff was fun though. I had a dude, a part time lecturer who worked in the markets and I’d spend a little bit of time talking to him about markets and stuff like that.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 7:49 pm
“Abbott is one fit dude.”

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/02/16/tony-abbots-penis-and-the-goblet-of-fire/

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 7:57 pm
That Crikey cartoon is flat out embarrassing… for the writer involved.

Infidel Tiger

16 Feb 10 at 8:04 pm
tony-abbots-penis-and-the-goblet-of-fire/
.
Do we really need to bring Sex Ed classes at Christian Bros schools into this?

Adrien

16 Feb 10 at 8:12 pm
You’re disputing the fact that Barnaby Joyce is a knob, IT?

BirdLab

16 Feb 10 at 8:19 pm
Explain to us why you think so, lab. Is there a reason or just a talking point list emailed to you from ALP headquarters? For example, please tell us what Joyce has done that comes within a bee’s dick of a finance minister who passionately backed FuelWatch and GroceryWatch?

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 8:30 pm
Tanner on Q&A put down Joe Hickey because he said he was a North Sydney former lawyer and that ALP’ers came from humble and all sorts of “diverse” backgrounds.

Following his graduation Lindsay spent time working with Holding Redlich as an articled clerk and solicitor, as a staff member for Senator Barney Cooney and as the Assistant Secretary, then State Secretary for the Victorian Branch of the Federated Clerks Unions.

Holding and Redlich was a former union hack hang out. Outside of Emerson I can’t think of one senior ALP official that wasn’t a union hack… Rudd of course was a public servant.

And Tanner suggests his side has diverse backgrounds.

Joyce deserves criticism for last night’s performance in not going after Tanner’s throat and putting him out for the count.

Labor’s background is basically public service and union hackery and layabouts.

Then I suppose Joyce was put off beam the minute the show started when Fatty Jones basically accused him of being an economic illiterate.

I’m fair minded enough to say that Joyce is. However I know that fat-head Tanner is worse although he comes across more polished.

The wind was taken from Tanner when he was asked how he could aspire to any competence when he says Whitlam was his hero. He did.

The problem with Joyce is that he needs to attack these fuckers for the economic trogs they are but doesn’t know enough about the subject to hit shysters like tanner where it really hurts.

Any decent player could bring Tanner down in a few minutes.

Conservatives should refuse to go on Jones show accusing him of being far too left to be even considered a fair player. Focus on one leftie media player at a time and bring them down.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 8:50 pm
Gippsland Grammar Old Boy, Lindsey, is playing the class card, eh? LOL. You can always tell Laborites are panicking when they do that.

C.L.

16 Feb 10 at 9:00 pm
What was it that Beazley Snr said about the Labor Party?

tal

16 Feb 10 at 9:06 pm
Satyajit (sp?) Das is listed as a “former banker” on the Q&A site.

I would say that “banker” is a typo and there is nothing former about it.

What a meta-commentary spewing, Leftie clown. I wish someone had been on with the nouse to shut that air bandit down.

Abu Chowdah

16 Feb 10 at 9:10 pm
BirdLab, in the interests of balance, Crikey should do a similar cartoon on Rudd.

They could call it, simply, “Arsehole”, or perhaps an even shorter epithet.

Abu Chowdah

16 Feb 10 at 9:14 pm
Yea, I watched him too, abu. He really is a leftie clown.

He serves Tony Jones’ purpose of appearing middle of the road, when he isn’t at all and he can be introduced as a former banker that allows him to talk in an esoteric fashion the people don’t understand, but in fact is basically dishing out a load of leftwing swill.

The guy is an idiot. I’d be interested in knowing what he actually traded because derivatives didn’t really get going until the late 80′s. He seems to have been at a trucking business after that time (TNT).

Save my soul for saying this but a trucking business isn’t at the forefront of derivatives trading.

I’d shut his fat trap down in NY minute given a chance.

JC

16 Feb 10 at 9:27 pm
JC, every time he’s on he says, “look at them arguing”, pretending he’s above it all, when really he’s a Leftwing mole. Metacommentariat twat.

He’s as irrelevant as that audience bint they show in the Q&A promos who says something like, “I just wish both sides could get past all this pointless arguing and work together to fix our problems.” Yeah, that’s right love, let’s forget about democracy – what we need is one-party state. I’m guessing a Left wing one who wants an ETS is what you had in mind, love? Sure, we can all agree on that. Moron air bandit.

Abu Chowdah

16 Feb 10 at 10:07 pm
Mind you, next week should be interesting. It’s a Labor party love-in, complete with Turnbull as the 5th columnist come in from the cold.

Abu Chowdah

16 Feb 10 at 10:08 pm
Good lord. “Metacommentariat.” You read it here first.

Abu Chowdah

16 Feb 10 at 10:09 pm
Bolt countered that the “list” was simply people who’d been removed in the normal course of family service departments removing children at risk. But hey… it’s open and shut, so you guys go on sneering and scoffing as a substitute for any kind of intelligent analysis.

daddy dave

16 Feb 10 at 10:24 pm
sorry…. wrong blog. arguing with someone else.

daddy dave

16 Feb 10 at 10:24 pm
more wine for dave…

Sinclair Davidson

16 Feb 10 at 10:32 pm
Are you sure it’s the wrong blog?

rog

16 Feb 10 at 10:47 pm
Are you sure it’s the wrong blog?
cute, rog, very cute.
But there’s plenty of analysis and intelligent argument to be had here.

daddy dave

16 Feb 10 at 11:35 pm
Thank Heavens, it is inevitable. Only the desperate will argue that we can generate power through alternatives. At best 20%.

http://www.news.com.au/world/obama-to-unveils-deal-for-nuclear-plant/story-e6frfkyi-1225831139431

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 12:35 am
Never let it be said I don’t put my money where my big mouth is John H.

I’ve put on what I think is the perfect tade that will eventually see the world come to its senses about renewable crap and nuclear energy an earn me some cashola.

In other words I putting money where my fat mouth is and trading accordingly.

I am long USU….. and against that shorted FSLR.

FSLR:
First Solar, Inc. designs and manufactures solar modules using a thin film semiconductor technology.. The Company’s solar power systems and project development business provides a variety of integrated services to its customers as part of a system solution delivery. These services include solar power system design, procurement of permits and balance of system components, construction management, monitoring and maintenance.

USU:

USEC Inc. is a global energy Company. It is a supplier of low enriched uranium (LEU) for commercial nuclear power plants. LEU is a component in the production of nuclear fuel for reactors to produce electricity. It supplies LEU to both domestic and international utilities for use in about 150 nuclear reactors worldwide; is an agent for the U.S. government under a nuclear nonproliferation program with Russia, known as Megatons to Megawatts; perform contract work for the United States Department of Energy (DOE) and its contractors at the Paducah and Portsmouth gaseous diffusion plants (GDPs), and provide transportation and storage systems for spent nuclear fuel and provide nuclear and energy consulting services. Its product and services include: low enriched uranium and contract services.

The trade is going great. It’s rare to see it but both side of the trade are making money for me. In a paired situation the best you hope for is that one side does better than the other even if you lose on one side as long as you gain on the other.

I shorted FSLR at around 122 bucks a share while I went long USU at $3.7

They last traded at $119 and 4.40 respectively which means I’m making money on both sides. I hope to see first solar at zero and USU art 35 bucks a share ?

JC

17 Feb 10 at 1:58 am
All the best JC. That news release will be the first of many. There are many countries now planning to go nuke. Fucking Chernobyl, people use that as an example but that is like comparing Qantas to Aeroflot. Remember that little debate we had re nukes? I found a fascinating abstract from the BMJ, posted it on my blog

http://healthycuriousity.blogspot.com/2010/02/relative-risk-and-chernobyl-incident.html

So don’t say I don’t confess to my fuck ups!

Be well,

John.

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 2:09 am
You have a blog?

I’ll favorite it, John.

Thanks

JC

17 Feb 10 at 2:11 am
This also came up tonight.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/time-to-go-nuclear-business/comments-e6frea83-1225805269507

I’ve had some heated argument with a latte leftist re nukes. Lately I’ve been discussing with a friend the idea that we should build a large channel from the Gulf up north down to central Aus, build a bunch of Nuke plants there, and start doing something about that bloody desert. With that much power desal becomes possible and as Lake Eyre is below sea level we could start pumping in water etc etc. Then we can truly look at expanding Aus popn without all the water worries. Of course the greenies, labour, and aborigines will hate the idea. Bloody luddites.

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 2:17 am
USU up 8% today after Obama has given go-ahead to build two new reactors. This is the biggest story in AGW for ages.

It’s the first time the US has commissioned a reactor since 1979. Nuke takes off and no one will stop it now.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 3:38 am
……and Obama has basically just killed solar as it’s the most expensive form of all energy sources.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10682099/1/solar-stocks-face-grayer-skies.html

Jim Cramer recently said he’s not a believer in solar plays because they require government subsidies, and governments around the world are out of “moola.”

It’s true the entire industry is a subsidy whore.

Apart from making some decent money on this trade, the other good thing is that Rudd now faces an ETS without nuke as Obama commissions two new reactors and basically green lights nuclear power.

Over to Rudd now and the anti science clowns in he ALP.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 3:46 am
“Lately I’ve been discussing with a friend the idea that we should build a large channel from the Gulf up north down to central Aus, build a bunch of Nuke plants there, and start doing something about that bloody desert. With that much power desal becomes possible and as Lake Eyre is below sea level we could start pumping in water etc etc. Then we can truly look at expanding Aus popn without all the water worries. Of course the greenies, labour, and aborigines will hate the idea. Bloody luddites”

I’d like to see a cost-benefit analysis applied to that idea. It makes the NBN plan look like sound public policy in comparison!

Labor Outsider

17 Feb 10 at 3:54 am
Probably cheaper than the NBN, Lo.

Hey, Google is building a fiber system that is 10 times faster than Rudd’s old dinosaur servicing around 500,000 units.

Rudd abomination is 100 megabits and Google’s is going to be 10 gegabits.

Meanwhile he ALP gives us an old jalopy while destroying share holder value in Telstra by ripping the company apart.

It’s even worse than Whitlam and Fraser combined. SamuelJ is right.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 4:10 am
john H

I’ve always felt that as a nation we lack imagination and nads by not ‘doing something about that bloody desert’ meself!

Peter Patton

17 Feb 10 at 7:48 am
If they think we can turn the climate around, ‘that bloody desert’ should be a cinch, right?

Peter Patton

17 Feb 10 at 7:50 am
Lately I’ve been discussing with a friend the idea that
What about flooding Lake Ayer and the surrounding and creating an inland sea? The whole area is below sea level, so it wouldn’t be very expensive.
The biggest drawback would be that you could no longer make nature docos about Lake Ayer, or try to break the land speed record there.
The benefits… at minimum, a monopoly on a brand new fishing zone.

daddy dave

17 Feb 10 at 9:24 am
I’m not such a small govt peson that I’d be ideologically opposed to public projects which you could call ‘opening up new frontiers for habitation and production’. Getting rid of that useless desert would be one potentially justifiable project. I’d say space exploration (not necessarily manned flight at this stage) is actually another but Australia isn’t in a position to do that, the US is, hence NASA is another favourite government project of mine.

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 9:38 am
Flooding lake Eyre has been proposed over the years, the canal would have to be pretty ambitious as I read you have to go over 150m up on all the feasible routes.

This document contains a few proposals from the mundane cloud seeding to the ambitous building of a mountain range across eastern WA to a height of 2km, length of 2000km and 10km wide. (which it notes would bankrupt us several times over).

Steve Edney

17 Feb 10 at 10:01 am
you have to go over 150m up on all the feasible routes.
.
I don’t understand why. After all, it’s below sea level, and the sea is (obviously) also below sea level. Any engineer that says that the water has to go “up” over a hill to get to the other side is missing the point of the exercise. Surely, those bits where you have to go “150m up”, you go get some explosives and you blast a hole through the hill until it’s 150m lower. This happens all the time with the building of freeways on a smaller scale.

daddy dave

17 Feb 10 at 10:08 am
On a much smaller scale. I can’t remember going though a cutting that’s more than around 20m deep and more than 1km. If the 150m hill is only a even few kms wide its hardly a problem, but the canal would have to be 350kms in total, how deep for how long would it need to be?

Steve Edney

17 Feb 10 at 10:12 am
I see from the ads that 7.30 Report tonight will have a story about opening up the north to development (for food mainly). As others have noted, that recent report saying it wasn’t so feasible was based on the premise that new dams would not be a good idea, which pretty much gives you your answer from the start.

I think a well planned city (hey, I like Canberra as a place to live) in the far north (Kimberley area?) could be an attractive mega project, but you would have to deal somehow with aboriginal land rights, I’m sure.

steve from brisbane

17 Feb 10 at 10:21 am
ah well, it’s politically impossible to transform the inland anyway, since the existing desert ecosystems would necessarily be destroyed. Here’s an extract from that document you linked to, Steve.
However far from lying dormant, Australia’s arid interior is host to a vast range of native plants and animals, which have adapted to the harsh climatic conditions of the region. Considerable variations in geology, soils, climate and vegetation contribute to a great diversity of ecosystems, species and genetic pools. The resulting biodiversity is integral to the function and health of the arid landscapes. (CSIRO, 2000)
This mentality pervades the document. basically, they worry: “but if we green the desert, where will the desert animals live?”
With that mindset, it can never be done. In fact, the Snowy Mountains Scheme could never occur. Also on the Lake Eyre thing, I noticed that One Nation had adopted it so that really is the kiss of death. plus, the SA govt made the lake a national park (a kiss of death onto a dead corpse).

daddy dave

17 Feb 10 at 10:23 am
So that’s why these morons are angry, water is too expensive
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/pubs-clubs-forced-to-offer-free-water-for-customers-after-10-bottle-claims/story-e6frf7jx-1225831201073

tal

17 Feb 10 at 10:25 am
jeez the hate fest against Abbott at the Snag blog is underway.

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 11:16 am
The avian pronounces on the Greek economic crisis:

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/how-ought-greece-handle-its-debts-what-is-the-real-meaning-of-those-old-europe-pledges-of-assistance

As usual (sigh), it’s the banks.

Shorter Bird:

I’m in debt up to my neck and I’m not happy about it. I resent banks because they lent me money that I can’t pay back (after bullshitting enormously on my loan application).

They then refused to lend me money that I can’t pay back (after dicovering that I am a chronic bullshitter).

BirdLab

17 Feb 10 at 11:19 am
But yourself a white gold Mercedes
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/2775052-dubai-unveils-the-one-and-only-white-gold-mercedes

tal

17 Feb 10 at 11:20 am
“Lately I’ve been discussing with a friend the idea that we should build a large channel from the Gulf up north down to central Aus…”

The Far Canals.

BirdLab

17 Feb 10 at 11:21 am
BirdLab are you keeping an eye on the frocks for this years Oscars?

tal

17 Feb 10 at 11:22 am
Birdlab
count your blessings. did you see that comment where he said he had considered leaving blogs for a few years???

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 11:22 am
Nice car tal. I’d hate to see anyone key it.

BirdLab

17 Feb 10 at 11:24 am
Tal, re frocks: Absolutely.

Jason, I think he may finally be seeking psychiatric help and has received advice. Sadly, it will inevitabley be ignored.

BirdLab

17 Feb 10 at 11:28 am
tal – I was surprised to hear free water isn’t already required in Vic… I believe it’s already the case in NSW. They still charge for bottled, but the post-mix water is cold, filtered, and free.

If I’m out on a “big night” (something I do less of than my younger days), I’d always alternate with a glass of water every second or third drink… not sure I’d have done that if I had to pay $10 for a bottle!

Fleeced

17 Feb 10 at 11:30 am
In contrast to LP Andrew Carr has another nice nuanced take on Abbott

http://andrewcarr.org/?p=1778

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 11:36 am
daddy dave

Surely the appropriate response is that the geckos, and brumbies can sink or swim. Plenty of other flora and fauna will be attracted to the shores of the Inland Australian Sea.

Peter Patton

17 Feb 10 at 11:37 am
Surely the appropriate response is that the geckos, and brumbies can sink or swim.
.
The desert has lots of unique and fragile ecosystems, Peter. We must leave them alone.
/sarc

daddy dave

17 Feb 10 at 11:39 am
If I’m out on a “big night” (something I do less of than my younger days), I’d always alternate with a glass of water every second or third drink

Pussy

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 11:41 am
Fleeced I don’t think the morons that bash and mug people use water to bathe let alone drink the stuff.

tal

17 Feb 10 at 11:48 am
@tal – True… and despite availablity of water in NSW pubs, it has stopped increasing incidences of glassings, etc… Drinking beer out of plastic glasses really sucks.

Fleeced

17 Feb 10 at 11:54 am
HASN’T stopped

Fleeced

17 Feb 10 at 11:54 am
What’s with the spate(sp)of glassings?

tal

17 Feb 10 at 12:10 pm
now there’s Hitler on Climate change and angry at Phil Jones. This one is hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-PI2vCA9ck&feature=player_embedded#

JC

17 Feb 10 at 12:16 pm
I beat them to it about a week ago.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/81213-52-say-obama-doesnt-deserve-reelection-

CNN poll: 52% say Obama doesn’t deserve reelection in 2012

JC

17 Feb 10 at 12:19 pm
No idea… just the latest “rage” factor… road rage, shopping rage, pub rage… I often wonder how much of it is media hype. Was it always there? Are are people now walking around on hair-trigger alert?

Fleeced

17 Feb 10 at 12:19 pm
More disturbing news for eco-mentalists. Men doing powerslides in high powered cars is not just popular, but rates it’s tits off.

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/mediadiary/index.php

Infidel Tiger

17 Feb 10 at 12:21 pm
Was it always there?
Given the absence of war, violence, and hatred before modern times, it’s clearly an entirely new phenomenon.

daddy dave

17 Feb 10 at 12:21 pm
Fleeced:

Some time ago Sceptic lawyer mentioned how the earlier times were much. much more violent … such as the early part of last century.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 12:22 pm
Ah, so Houghton did actually say it:

If we want a good environmental policy in the future we’ll have to have a disaster.

http://john-adams.co.uk/2010/02/15/is-god-trying-to-tell-us-something/

Apology accepted, Rog.

dover_beach

17 Feb 10 at 12:24 pm
So much rage….let’s put eccies in the water supply

tal

17 Feb 10 at 12:24 pm
Oh dear heavens. Check out the dates:

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/einsteins-legacymr-elliots-uncle/#comment-27444

BirdLab

17 Feb 10 at 12:31 pm
Birdlabs link:

That means that Einstein was wrong.

Really big call from Birdie. Huge call.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 12:34 pm
The “consistent with” chronicles continue:

National Geographic reports yesterday:

Declining fog cover on California’s coast could leave the state’s famous redwoods high and dry, a new study says.

Last summer the San Francisco Chronicle carried a story about research on fog and climate with a different conclusion:

The Bay Area just had its foggiest May in 50 years. And thanks to global warming, it’s about to get even foggier.

http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2010/02/consistent-with-being-in-deep-fog.html

Nothing, it seems, is inconsistent with AGW.

dover_beach

17 Feb 10 at 12:39 pm
Evidently he thinks Occam’s razor is a personally inscribed shaving implement, JC.

BirdLab

17 Feb 10 at 12:44 pm
Roger Pielke is the bloke who mistook Michael Mann the film director with Michael Mann the scientist.

I can see why you read him.

Nothing is consistent with Roger Pielke!

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

17 Feb 10 at 12:45 pm
Hurricane-gate?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/15/hatton_on_hurricanes/

dover_beach

17 Feb 10 at 12:45 pm
“Some time ago Sceptic lawyer mentioned how the earlier times were much. much more violent…”

Oh, I’ve no doubt that’s true over the long term… in fact, even 20-30 years ago was worse – the crime stats bear that out.

My query was more whether this was just more of the media hyping things up – saying things are getting worse, when they’re getting better – or whether there was something to it.

The skeptic in me things the whole “rage” thing is just some buzzwords being used for the same old problem… and yet, I’ve can’t help having noticed a change in attitudes in recent years. For lack of a batter word – it’s as though many feel “entitled” to be enraged… situations that just fizzle out seem to escalate far more than they should.

Maybe I’m just getting old…. “young kids today,” and all that!

Fleeced

17 Feb 10 at 12:47 pm
Roger Pielke is the bloke who mistook Michael Mann the film director with Michael Mann the scientist.

Where did he do this, Homer? Link please.

dover_beach

17 Feb 10 at 12:47 pm
Proof of Fat Tony Jones’s sickening bias. And from the original link, two examples of how Jones interrupts when his guest is a Labor politician. The first ruthless intervention is for Wayne Swan, the second for Kevin Rudd:

Alright, now in the midst of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, Australians keep getting good economic news. We’re not in recession even though you told us we were. Unemployment appears to have stabilised as have share markets. There’s a lot of talk about green shoots of recovery. So some analysts are even starting to say this could be the mildest recession that Australia has experienced. What do you say to those analysts?

I thought about this a bit. If you campaigned heavily on the stimulus package you could call it “Manna From Kevin”.

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 12:48 pm
“Maybe I’m just getting old…. “young kids today,” and all that!”

Fleeced, get off my lawn.

BirdLab

17 Feb 10 at 12:49 pm
Bring back National Service

tal

17 Feb 10 at 12:52 pm
Release the Christian elephants.

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 12:56 pm
We’ve got national service already. It’s called taxation.

Sinclair Davidson

17 Feb 10 at 12:57 pm
Yeah CL I’d like to see some dickhead try to glass those righteous mothers

tal

17 Feb 10 at 12:59 pm
Labor health reform:

Belinda Neal promises hip surgery to 72 year-old ALP member if she votes for Neal’s preselection.

Conroy caught bribing Kerry Stokes, Neal blackmailing the elderly, Peter Garrett electrocuting the working class… heckuva government!

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 1:00 pm
Red Kerry at least gets angry with all his guests for the simple reason that he’s a miserable bastard and he is to the far of all of them.

Fat Jones just plays favorites and he even looks like he doesn’t care anymore.

His producer is the dude that ran Media Watch. He made it even more left for a short time who was having skirmishes with Blair and is a real nasty, tax-eating leftoid fat Jones chose to produce his program.

It’s a leftie coven, Cl. If you walked into the program with a silver cross they’d all burn alive.

The most irritating presenter on that program is Ticky Fullerton (Tricky to her friends). I can’t believe she worked for the same firm I did (according to her bio). I can’t see how it was possible she was hired in the London office. There was no one I can think of that was dumb in that office.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 1:03 pm
Apart from killing people…

Useless insulation ‘in 30-40pc of homes’, Senate inquiry hears.

Heckuva government!

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 1:41 pm
Breaking news: Scott Brown challenges Obama. Whitehouse worried.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/298399.php

Infidel Tiger

17 Feb 10 at 1:56 pm
For good or ill we will one day be left with no alternative but to develop that bloody desert. Even when the aborigines arrived there was considerable vegetation in some of arid regions. With regard to Nuke plants Aus is in a unique position. We can mine the stuff, rail it straight to the plants, and even the waste storage potential is not that far away geographically. Energy generating potential is a huge bottleneck in development. The more energy available, the more potential to do many things.

It will take many generations. It is not an “all at once” development but a graduated development that could take hundreds of years. Terraforming will be the way to go, we will have no choice because irrespective of AGW over long periods of time massive climate change is inevitable and is potentially catastrophic. As recent research has indicated climate change can be extremely rapid, in as short as 40 years we could move into an Ice Age. Nature has been kind to us so far because this Holocene period appears unusually long. But Nature is a capricious bastard and can turn without warning. Even if we were to “turn back the clock” to pre industrial CO2 levels massive climate change is going to happen. While I agree we need to do something about AGW it seems to me an underlying assumption is that we can restore the environment to its “natural state”. This is a hopelessly deluded idea because there is no “natural state”. It is a fabrication by those who think nature exists in some state of equilibrium.

Developing the north for agricultural purposes that has been tried. If it were feasible the Ord River project would not be the white elephant it has become. Too much heat = too many bugs and too many crops do not like tropic temperatures. GM probably can make the plants tolerant but pathogen control is always a problem because the little buggers change so quickly.

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would want the desert to remain as it is. Human history is about ever increasing degrees of changing the environment. I take Daddy Dave’s point though, politically it is at present disastrous. Yet not so long ago the idea of building more Nuke plants was politically disastrous. Necessity is the mother of change.

Yes, I know this is a dream. Unfortunately political leaders have bought into this “natural state” crap and the Greens have been quite successful in promulgating Nature Worship. I used to be involved in Green issues and walked away because I kept encountering too many bloody idiots.

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 2:02 pm
Roger Pielke is the bloke who mistook Michael Mann the film director with Michael Mann the scientist.

Regarding DBs question. I doubt Homer will provide a link but I think that he is refering to this.

http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2009/08/1264-to-1.html

and this

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/08/another_pielke_train_wreck.php

In short he counted search results that referred to a different Michael Mann to get 1264 stories about Atlantic Hurricanes, rather than the correct number of 27.

Steve Edney

17 Feb 10 at 2:05 pm
The idea of building a mountain range in eastern Western Australia that ran north-south and would be 2000km in length in order to ‘green’ much of that which lies to its west is completely audacious.

dover_beach

17 Feb 10 at 2:08 pm
Thanks, SteveE. So it was just another reference to a poor google search. Gee, revoke his position and PhD and send him to Coventry. And so far as it concerned Piekle Jr’s argument then, it didn’t effect its conclusion.

dover_beach

17 Feb 10 at 2:13 pm
The idea of building a mountain range in eastern Western Australia that ran north-south and would be 2000km in length in order to ‘green’ much of that which lies to its west is completely audacious.

A long time ago a similiar idea was put forward with regard to Alaska. They wanted to start using Nukes to transform the landscape. The program was canned because with Nuke testing it was found in Australia that children born this time had strontium 90 in their bones and that could only have been possible from Nuke explosion fall out. Didn’t stop Stalin though, against the advice of scientists he insisted on 3 hydrogen bombs to create a massive lake. To this day you must stay a long way from that lake … .

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 2:16 pm
Stalin always knew best

tal

17 Feb 10 at 2:18 pm
Looks like the Mises Institute is endorsing Birdian monetary economics

http://mises.org/daily/4100

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 2:21 pm
AWU boss Paul Howes has apparently gone beserk at the National Press Club. Says Abbott will implement policies “abolished by the Vatican in Vatican II.”

Guess we’ll be speaking Latin if Tony is slected PM.

Mark Bahnisch will be pleased.

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 2:34 pm
I’m sure he’ll do a great job of phenomenologizing the argument in a well written narrative.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 2:38 pm
Diverting the great northern rivers south or building massive dams in Australia’s north would have been feasable in the 1950′s. Unfortunately we are now a nation of low-carb beer drinking, nanny-statists. We need a good war to sort this nation out.

Infidel Tiger

17 Feb 10 at 2:40 pm
Unfortunately we are now a nation of low-carb beer drinking, nanny-statists. We need a good war to sort this nation out.

We need a strident and sustained attack on Green mythologies. I have very clear environmental concerns but these mostly relate to pollution and the ever increasing concentration of artificial chemicals found in human bodies. Take someone off the street and you could easily find 100+ man made chemicals in their body, many of which have not been tested for toxicity. For me at least that is a worrying trend, particularly given the alarming rise in various immunological disorders. For example, an Italian study last year found that the risk of developing Type 2 diabetes was heavily contingent on the presence of persistant organic pollutants. The results were startling, for people of equal obesity the risk of developing Type 2 diabetes varied by x38 from the lowest decile to the highest decile measures of these pollutants. They even asserted that for people classifed as obese but with very low levels of these POPs, the risk of Type 2 diabetes was extremely low. This correlates with studies on mice which found that BPA, which is just about everywhere(plastics), made them obese. I have long thought that the rapid rise in type 2 diabetes could not be accounted for simply by lifestyle changes and now the data is tending to confirm that suspicion. Yes, there is a clear inflammatory component in relation to Type 2 diabetes.

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 2:49 pm
Landeryou can be spot on in his blogging but then you have to remember he is ultimately a Labor hack. Here is one of his weakest blog posts defending Conroy whom he claims is a ‘highly regarded’ Communications minister. Perhaps in the same way that Homer Paxton is a ‘highly regarded’ Australian intellectual

http://www.vexnews.com/news/8297/can-the-van-pouting-peters-hidden-agenda-and-secret-past-exclusively-revealed/

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 2:51 pm
hahahahahahahahhaaha

Conroy is highly regarded? By whom. At the last election Controy received a staggering large 700 odd (direct)votes.

Even labor voters can’t stomach him it seems.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 2:58 pm
And how is it that Conroy appointing Kaiser to that plush NBN job has not caused outrage across the land?

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 3:00 pm
or in the way JFSoon is highly regarded about Keynesian policy

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

17 Feb 10 at 3:01 pm
or in the way JFSoon is highly regarded about Keynesian policy

I scored a HD in Economic Classics which included study of the General Theory, Homer.

Just because I don’t agree with it doesn’t mean I don’t understand it.

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 3:06 pm
I scored a c- in eco history (I think it ws called), Homer and I also know loads more than you. In fact I’ve forgotten more than you think you know.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 3:09 pm
“Conroy is highly regarded? By whom. At the last election Controy received a staggering large 700 odd (direct)votes.”

700 people really went to the trouble of filling out an entire senate ballot to give their first preference to Conroy? That’s really pretty troubling.

AJ

17 Feb 10 at 3:12 pm
Yeah Statman you claimed it was used in the 70s but always get mute when asked for an example of a liquidity trap that happened then

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

17 Feb 10 at 3:14 pm
He scored the lowest of any of the candidates proportionally, AJ. But don’t let me stop you liking him.

I presume you were one of the voters in that strange group that voted for the chief censor and Fiber optic tycoon?

JC

17 Feb 10 at 3:14 pm
Homer
the only liquidity trap is that one between your ears where grey matter should be.

I’ve explained a dozen times about the difference between Keynesianism in practice and as understood by political leaders and Keynesianism of the book. You sound like a Marxist who claims Marxism hasn’t really been tried.

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 3:17 pm
Yeah Statman you claimed it was used in the 70s but always get mute when asked for an example of a liquidity trap that happened then

Debbie, we all bring up tons of examples of Keynesian economics running amok in innocent economies such as Japan in the 90′s and the UK in the 70′s and you always stop us and say it’s not a good example while voraciously making direct reference to your favorite economic system for the entire 20th century: 1930′s Nazi Germany….. in that emotional heartfelt way of yours.

You drown us out shouting your love of Nazi economics. That’s why we’re always “mute”.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 3:19 pm
oops Keynes said Fiscal policy only had to be used because the liquidity trap rendered monetary policy impotent.

Without a liquidity trap there was NO need to use fiscal policy because monetary policy would suffice but now Statman says differently.
We must be glad he read the GT so thoroughly he missed that point.

Never mind he did get a HD

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

17 Feb 10 at 3:22 pm
More on socialist Obama fanatic and murderer, Professor Amy Bishop:

Amy Bishop was charged with assault in 2002 IHOP dispute.

In March, 2002, Bishop walked into an International House of Pancakes in Peabody with her family, asked for a booster seat for one of her children, and learned the last seat had gone to another mother.

Bishop, according to a police report, strode over to the other woman, demanded the seat and launched into a profanity-laced rant.

When the woman would not give the seat up, Bishop punched her in the head, all the while yelling “I AM DR. AMY BISHOP.”

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 3:37 pm
Aside from all the murdering, she sounds like your average celebrity.

Infidel Tiger

17 Feb 10 at 3:39 pm
Or Rudd on an RAAF flight, after being denied a chicken meal.

I AM KEVIN RUDD, PRIME MINISTER!

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 3:43 pm
She is scary looking

tal

17 Feb 10 at 3:44 pm
So does Rudd when he’s hungry in front of a flight attendant.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 3:46 pm
Half Sigma has been covering every small detail from the Amy Bishop case

http://www.halfsigma.com/2010/02/amy-bishop-was-dungeons-and-dragons-nerd.html

Bishop, now a University of Alabama professor, and her husband James Anderson met and fell in love in a Dungeons & Dragons club while biology students at Northeastern University in the early 1980s, and were heavily into the fantasy role-playing board game, a source told the Herald.

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 3:46 pm
let’s be blunt Tal. she looks somewhat … err … butch

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 3:48 pm
Well say no more

tal

17 Feb 10 at 3:49 pm
It’s got similarities to Fort Hood. Known nutcases that nobody wanted to offend for fear of aggravating them go berzerk with deadely consequences. PC kills.

Infidel Tiger

17 Feb 10 at 3:50 pm
They’re not keen on soap either, as we all know:

A U.K. study has shown half a million Brits only wash their sheets three times a year, mX reported.

Dirty truth about Brits and their sheets.

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 3:52 pm
Stuff like that makes it hard to believe they had that empire… and then you look at french behavior in the same regard.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 3:55 pm
Australians are quite famous in Europe for our love of a shower. How in God’s name anyone begins the day without have a David Gower I’ll never know. It’s unseemly.

Infidel Tiger

17 Feb 10 at 3:58 pm
Or perhaps its because they had an empire. The rest of the world has moved on but they are trying to live like they did in their glory days before freely available clean running water.

Steve Edney

17 Feb 10 at 4:27 pm
For those who were overawed by Abbott’s fitness regime yesterday I found more
http://manly-daily.whereilive.com.au/news/story/running-man-tony-abbott/

Mr Abbott is in training for the gruelling Port Macquarie Ironman on March 28.

For the uninitiated, that is a 3.8km swim, 180.2km bike ride followed by a 42.2km run.

“I’m not expecting a flash time, if I can do it in 14 hours I’ll be happy,” he said. “After I get off the bike I’m expecting to walk the first few kilometres of the marathon.”

But his training intensity will increase though. “I’ll lengthen out the weekend bike ride to 100km rather than 50-60km and when parliament goes back I will swim about 1km a day.”

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 4:38 pm
Someone, somewhere will have a problem with Abbott keeping fit.

tal

17 Feb 10 at 4:42 pm
Tal: Oh indeed, I have a problem with it. Hasn’t anyone else found that their co-workers that are most enthusiastic about going out daily and jogging/exercising also the ones who spend another 1/2 hour showering before getting back to work, and need more time off for knee re-constructions and other medical interventions for exercise induced problems?

I don’t trust heavily exercising people to be good workers at all.

Of course, he could well be the exception, but I am just keen on finding all the reasons I can to dislike him.

steve from brisbane

17 Feb 10 at 4:51 pm
There is something very odd, very icky, and very un-Australian about people feeling ‘offended’- or more likely threatened by a political leader who is not only a trained lifeguard, but still competes in triathlons. In Australia, volunteer lifeguards have a kind of status that demands some respect. I know, I am bloody grateful for their presence when I’m at the beach.

Very weird people who go into paroxysms of rage that a 50 year old man wearing speedos because he is, er, competing in a surf carnival, and yet shout down anyone who might suggest that Kim Beazley should hit the treadmill.

Peter Patton

17 Feb 10 at 4:53 pm
I you gathered this from looking into their eyes, didn’t you?

dover_beach

17 Feb 10 at 4:54 pm
Steve are you a lounge lizard

tal

17 Feb 10 at 4:58 pm
Steve now admits to tracking co-workers showering habits. You’re a creepy guy, steve.

Infidel Tiger

17 Feb 10 at 5:00 pm
Steve
I alternate between running days, lifting days, swimming days and heavy bag practice days virtually everyday bar one rest day. I do all these either before or after work, get in at a reasonable time, leave at a reasonable time and only shower at home.

I don’t think I’ve ever taken a day off work for being sick for the last 5 years. On the other hand I frequently hear of lots of people who don’t do any exercise who fall sick during the flu season.

We physically active people just manage our time better and are superior in all respects

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 5:00 pm
Taking a sickie when you are actually sick is a waste of a day off. Save them up for when you are as fit as a fiddle, and the sun is shining.

Peter Patton

17 Feb 10 at 5:02 pm
Someone, somewhere will have a problem with Abbott keeping fit.

Say no more tal. Witness omega male central

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/02/16/the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-abbotts-brutopia/#comment-858338

I wonder if Tone is acquainted with the concept of “homo eroticism”.

He seems more interested in dressing in lycra and enduring punishing feats of physical endurance with the lads than participating in politics.

Then there are the emerging insights into his bullying behaviour at St. Ignatius.

And the obsession with boxing, the typical “amore greco” personality begins to take shape.

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 5:09 pm
I am all knowing

tal

17 Feb 10 at 5:10 pm
Meanwhile Rudd is in training for the next Pick up Sticks meet

tal

17 Feb 10 at 5:14 pm
Wow… bit of projection there from the luvvie set. They do seem obsessed with him, don’t they? This, more than anything else, tells me he can actually win. Still a long-shot – but their dripping hatred is a good sign.

Fleeced

17 Feb 10 at 5:15 pm
…punishing feats of physical endurance with the lads.

Abbott with the lads.

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 5:17 pm
While Abbott would never exploit this, his physical fitness and penchant for physical activity is in complete contrast to Rudd, who looks as fragile as a flower. Rudd has had major heart surgery so intense exercise is a nogo for Rudd but he could certainly learn from Abbott’s example because exercise, even for heart patients, is one of the best things we can do for our health. I know because I no longer exercise! (Have checked out a local gym but waiting for some medical results til I go there.). By way of example, a very old study claimed that smokers who exercised were actually healthier than sedentary non-smokers.

Perhaps some in the media think that playing up Abbott’s fitness fanaticism is a good way to quietly mock him. I think they are completely wrong, Abbott is a striking example of how we could massively reduce our public health bill. I mean that quite seriously. We should not be fitness fanatics like Abbott but even light exercise on a daily basis, if practised cross the general population, would bring substantial productivity dividends and and reduced health costs.

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 5:30 pm
Abbott is a striking example of how we could massively reduce our public health bill.
.
And power. On account of all the cold showers.

Adrien

17 Feb 10 at 5:34 pm
Obviously, Jason, people like you who keep their fitness regimes completely separate from their work hours do not have the time wasting aspect I complain about. But I am betting that anyone here who has ever worked around the Defence Force, or even the public service, will know what I am complaining about. (Especially the Defence Force, as they know all their medical treatment is free and easily arranged, so they’ll bound away at their knees knowing it’ll all be fixed for them.)

And (to be completely honest) while a moderate fitness regime is unremarkable and arguably sensible, the type of thinking that makes people keen to get involved in really tortuous events is completely foreign to me, and I wonder if it takes a certain narcissistic element in their character to do it.

(I am, need I say, generally not very interested in any sport, but I especially care nothing for any feat of human endurance that does not need to be done. I mean, of course I would admire someone who walks 500 km across desert to be saved from a plane wreck. But someone who’s a champion Iron Man? Nope.)

Let the rubbishing begin!

steve from brisbane

17 Feb 10 at 5:38 pm
nd arguably sensible, the type of thinking that makes people keen to get involved in really tortuous events is completely foreign to me, and I wonder if it takes a certain narcissistic element in their character to do it.

And if you look at the data on endurance training it is clear that it can do more harm than good. There is data linking high performance endurance activities with Atril Fib, a good way to die quickly, and heart failure, a terrible way to die slowly. However the confounder in these studies is that so many high level athletes are using performance enhancing drugs.

Sustained intense exercise of any sort also induces considerable oxidative stress, there have even been trials on Olympic athletes to see if anti oxidant supplementation helped prevent this. Apparently not, possibly because such exercise induces the expression of pro-inflammatory cytokines. Two fold issue here: the oxidative stress helps initiate growth and repair processes and recent research even indicates the oxidation is important in facilitating insulin dynamics.

That is why I describe Abbott as a fitness fanatic. He is not going it for health but because he loves it. However the above considerations would be lost on the mass media so the general perception will be that Abbott must be incredibly healthy. He would probably be more healthy if he cut his exercise regime by a third if not more.

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 5:46 pm
It’s called a sense of challenge Steve. it’s why some of us enjoy the exercise for its own sake and aren’t doing is just for the utilitarian benefit,.

jtfsoon

17 Feb 10 at 5:46 pm
Jason,

If you can track down “The Matrix Principle”, a training regime developed by some bod at the Uni of Newcastle. Very difficult and one exercise physiologist told me that even elite athletes only do this routine for short periods because it is so intense. I’ve tried it, get ready for pain that makes “the burn” seem minuscule in comparison.

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 5:50 pm
Shorter steve: Why stress your body exercising when you can have full blown panic attacks and an attack of the vapours over an imaginary rise in temperature.

Infidel Tiger

17 Feb 10 at 5:54 pm
Someone, somewhere will have a problem with Abbott keeping fit.

Say no more tal. Witness omega male central

But of course they’d have a problem. As I keep saying, the place is a shocking combination of nasty top hens and beta males soaking in estrogen.

Its horrible what you can end up with.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 6:16 pm
Someone, somewhere will have a problem with Abbott keeping fit.
.
Not me I have a problem with Abbott keeping. Can we please have a PM who isn’t a total nimrod for a change. It’s been, what. 20 years?
.
This is exercise

Adrien

17 Feb 10 at 6:35 pm
So Adrien you’re lazy and you like to kill things hmmmm

tal

17 Feb 10 at 6:42 pm
Adrien, the world is run by the mediocre. If you want that to change, run for office yourself.

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 6:42 pm
“an imaginary rise in temperature.”

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content/208488main_global_temp_change.jpg

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2008/images/20080429.gif

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/features/200711_temptracker/global_temperature_anomaly_532.gif

Jarrah

17 Feb 10 at 7:37 pm
I thought we got 3 links before moderation now?

[We do, but that comment looks like spam. Sinc]

Jarrah

17 Feb 10 at 7:38 pm
This speech on Peak Oil lays out the sums in a pretty compelling fashion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYuLjGQQ-jg&feature=player_embedded

The existing “giants” are depleting at 4 million barrels per year, at least 5% per year. So every year we have to replace 5% of sweet crude with alternative sources just to keep global demand stable, which still implies a reduction in per-capita consumption. Oil demand is rising the fastest in OPEC, so we can expect a reduction in net exports from these countries. Pretty grim all round.

I wonder if the editors of Reason magazine will be able to solve this looming energy crisis in their next coked-up symposium?

Michael Fisk

17 Feb 10 at 8:02 pm
Fisk:

there’s plenty of oil at a price. The US is swimming in the shit. Some large players have figured out how to extract oil by sending low radiation rods or crap like down geological fissures that sends oil straight up.

Energy extraction is just a function to tech ability that’s all.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 8:08 pm
There’s also the other quiet revolution. The US will never go back to it’s former levels of consumption as the carmakers are coming out with some really good engines that significantly raise mileage.

Take Cummins Engines for instance. These dudes have come out with a ripper truck turbo charged engine that drops mileage significantly and the stock has taken off because the revolution in their truck engines.

http://trailer-bodybuilders.com/chassis/paccar-mx-engine-kenworth-0208/

JC

17 Feb 10 at 8:16 pm
Somebody loves us.

This is probably the preeminent right wing/libertarian group blog in Australia. This is a very popular blog with an enormous commenting community. Posts range from short to long, essay style to nothing but quotes and links. This blog has a great simple layout that is easy to navigate.

The guys at Catallaxy are seriously into their brand of politics. This makes some posts incomprehensible to people who aren’t in the know. If you are left-leaning I would think twice before leaving a comment as the other commenters tend to be territorial.
…
The comments thread of this blog can be a tough environment for those of a left-wing opinion so you should be prepared for a head-on confrontation.

Sinclair Davidson

17 Feb 10 at 8:38 pm
Jarrah, in those charts, please pay attention to the y-axis. They’re in units of .2 a degree Centigrade. The absolute change in temperature over the past 100 years is tiny.

daddy dave

17 Feb 10 at 8:38 pm
The comments thread of this blog can be a tough environment for those of a left-wing opinion so you should be prepared for a head-on confrontation.
.
roughly translates to “Abandon hope! All ye who enter here.”

daddy dave

17 Feb 10 at 8:41 pm
Cool.

Sinclair Davidson

17 Feb 10 at 8:42 pm
This blog seems to be a gathering point for those of a certain political persuasion with each post receiving a great many comments. Many of the posts are about the nonexistence of global warming and / or the impracticality of carbon trading schemes.

This blog in danger of many other political blogs of being way too predictable. However, some of the authors of this blog fight against this expressing opinions that are against the expected right-wing view – such as a like of Peter Garrett.

7/10

rog

17 Feb 10 at 8:55 pm
Well, that didn’t take long. The three networks are already doing some hit work on Tony Abbott for the munificent Rudd government. This paragraph cracked me up:

Veteran Canberra journalist Laurie Oakes weighed in a personal editorial on Channel Nine news saying: “My message to Tony Abbott is this: when Kerry Packer owned the Nine Network he knew he couldn’t tell me what to say so the bunch of private equity investors who own it now have no chance.”

How did anyone notice the difference between Labor stooge Laurie’s “personal editorial” and his usual fare?

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 9:00 pm
yes, rog. you’re too predictable.

Sinclair Davidson

17 Feb 10 at 9:02 pm
Revisiting Peak oil again.

I really don’t understand people’s concern here as extraction (as I said) is just a function of technology).

However the other thing people don’t often discuss is the non-static nature of efficiencies.

Giving an extreme example…. why should we give a shit if the price of oil heads to 200 bucks a barrel if our mileage efficiency heads to 60-70 miles a gallon (i really don’t know that liter crap).

That’s why the concern with cheap oil/peak oil is over blown bullshit for the most part. It’s also the reason why the price signal is so important and that it’s allowed to do it’s work.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 9:12 pm
yes Rog, predicable and extremely dull.

—————–

lOL so the 3 networks take in a backpock bribe and the enormous Laurie Oakes gets stuck into Abbott. I’m shocked, absolutely shocked Porkeous Oakes come out with that sort of editorial.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 9:17 pm
I dont understand how you can be so blase’ about the cost of one form of energy (oil) and hysterical about another (electricity)

rog

17 Feb 10 at 9:25 pm
The examples you give (greater fuel efficiency due to higher costs of the product) are exactly the reasons for putting a price on carbon.

As for turbo diesel efficiency – look at the top 10 truck manufactures of the world and see where Kenworth lies..down the bottom

rog

17 Feb 10 at 9:29 pm
Why am I being blase’?

Efficiencies and technology will allow us to increase global mileage with more efficient engines, which is a normal response in the market where the price signal does its job.

We’re not allowing that to happen in the electricity generation market if we pushed through an ETS. We’d be the only ones doing it and at the same time we would be hand cuffing ourselves by peddling renewable dilute energy crap that won’t work while banning nuclear that would.

How on earth are you reading that as blase’ dunder head.

I have little concern in saying that we’re perhaps 4 to 5 models models away where average mileage gets us to 60 miles a gallon. I have absoltuely no faith at all that crap like the eternal subsidy whores (solar and wind) will ever play any meaningful game in energy production and shouldn’t.

I put my money where my mouth is Rog. I shorted a solar company and bought a nuke services firm.

I’m thinking of adding to that trade. You can take the other side for any part of that trade if you want.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 9:39 pm
Kenworth doesn’t make the engines, Rog. Cummins does for some of them.

As I said Cummins came out with a 6 cylinder turbo engine that are selling like hot cakes to the truck makers.

Truck making is a different game to cars. Truck makers are basically assemblers to some degree and shop around for components all over the place.
Carmakers do that too, however they tend to make their own engines.

There also a lot of made to specs manufacturing. It really is a different game.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 9:43 pm
The examples you give (greater fuel efficiency due to higher costs of the product) are exactly the reasons for putting a price on carbon.

Okay Rog.. fine let’s put a price on carbon.

1. Stop subsidizing the whores like solar and wind

2. Stop any subsidies in the entire sector.

3. Remove requirements on the energy companies in having to buy their energy from the subsidy whores at egregious prices. Let the market set the price.

4. Stop the ban on nuclear energy at once and treat it with the same respect the subsidy whores are. In other words don’t let the anti-science left kill it with anti-science regulations.

5. Don’t introduce an ETS unless the rest of the world is and set it at the same rate.

6. Don’t introduce redistribution in the program by paying low income earners more than the pay in ad disguise what should be a mitigation effort. Tanner said that’s what they were doing.

7. If the coal producers go broke let them go broke so that the public sees the real effects of the ETS and don’t turn them into rent seekers by adding another group of subsidy whores.

You support all those measures rog?

JC

17 Feb 10 at 9:53 pm
How much oil is in the Democrats’ so-called “No Zone“?

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 9:56 pm
Jim Hoft picks up another hilarious piece of warmenist trickery. Global warming is whatever you want it to be.

July 6, 2009:

Get ready for even foggier summers.

The Bay Area just had its foggiest May in 50 years. And thanks to global warming, it’s about to get even foggier.

February 10, 2010:

Fog over San Francisco thins by a third due to climate change.

C.L.

17 Feb 10 at 10:02 pm
JC,

The nuclear power issue won’t impact in this year’s federal election but it certainly will in the next. On the news tonight it stated there are already 56 new plants under construction or about to begin, another 20 odd in the pipeline, and I suspect this is the start of the trend. Australia is going to get stuck behind the 8 ball on this one. Abbott really needs to show some balls on this issue and make it an election issue for this year. He won’t and I think that is a mistake.

John H.

17 Feb 10 at 10:07 pm
Yea I know, John. I’m really optimistic globally now particularly after Obama introduced his recent policy. I think this is hugely important as it basically neutralizes the bullshit for the global left on the issue of nuke energy.

estimates are that China will operate 400 nuke in 30 years time which is enormously important in terms of turning down emissions. India is also moving ahead quite smartly too.

JC

17 Feb 10 at 10:22 pm
on peak oil:

“Exxon Mobil (XOM) announced today that in 2009 the company’s proven reserves increased by 133% of the amount of oil produced. . . . Amazingly, Exxon, who has been accused in the past of being too conservative in terms of exploration and development, has been finding more oil than it produces for each of the last 16 years, to the dismay of peak oil proponents.”

(ht Instapundit)

daddy dave

17 Feb 10 at 10:37 pm
Hey I think all you free market, get-the-government-out-of-the-way economist types should like this spectacular example of just a little, tiny bit of over-regulation:

Dubai: The Ministry of Economy will decide on a price increase request for Pepsi and Coca-Cola products by the end of next week, a top official said.

“We have received the request from both companies and we will send it to the higher committee of consumer protection for approval,” Ahmad Abdul Aziz Al Shehi, director-general of the Ministry of Economy (MoE) told Gulf News in a recent interview.

Though the two companies have not stated the price yet, Al Shehi said that if approved, the increase would be less than 100 per cent.

So, as the current price of a regular can is Dh1, its new price would be under Dh2.

In all GCC countries except the UAE and Qatar, Pepsi and Coca-Cola prices have increased. While the proposal for an increase was given a year ago, the situation has changed and the companies have a better argument at this point, Al Shehi said.

Al Ahlia Gulf Line, manufacturer and distributor of Coca-Cola products in the UAE, said that it had several meetings with the MoE for a price increase request.

“We have maintained our price in [the] UAE for the past 22 years but with an increase in almost all raw materials and costs involved in the manufacturing of products …there should be now a price review,” Antoine Tayyar, Public Affairs and Communications Director for The Coca-Cola Export Corporation, Middle East said in a statement.

http://gulfnews.com/business/general/pepsi-coke-prices-in-uae-likely-to-increase-1.584280

Even I find that story amazing.

steve from brisbane

18 Feb 10 at 12:43 am
Honest question: Is Rudd a goner?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/insulators-call-for-halt-to-rollout/story-e6frg6n6-1225831571025
Insulators call for halt to rollout

The Australian also learned Environment Minister Peter Garrett had been warned by industry experts about poor safety standards in the home insulation sector at least five months before it gave $2.45 billion in taxpayer-funded subsidies last year.
“(It’s) an industry awash with untrained installers,” Mr Tikey told the Coalition-led inquiry on its first day of sittings in Melbourne yesterday.

“It’s been . . . a free-for-all
in terms of installers and their expertise.
“Every man and his dog. There is no duty of care.”
Mr Garrett has already suspended foil insulation from the program, amid mounting political pressure over the deaths of four installers and concern over a number of houses being left “live” with electricity.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/opinion/rudd-bumped-by-opposition-story/story-e6frgd0x-1225831555761

It was a bad idea to hold a media conference without grasping the agenda
KEVIN Rudd is a proven election campaigner and an accomplished media performer when he is focused and setting the agenda.
As a new Leader of the Opposition, Rudd demonstrated he could concentrate on a single positive message and keep the Coalition government off-balance during the 2007 election.
Yesterday, as Prime Minister, he called a media conference but he was unable to set his intended agenda, strayed into negative topics and got upstaged on the evening television news by Tony Abbott almost getting hit by a truck.
There was no sign of the frontrunning, confident politician in charge of a media conference positively promoting his own policies and deftly smothering the Coalition agenda.

After making a statement about homelessness which normally would have been dealt with by a ministerial press release, the Prime Minister was immediately quizzed on a range of topics that put him in a negative light.
The size of the $250 million tax break to the free-to-air television stations was unfavourably compared to the $10m he announced for homelessness, he couldn’t answer questions about warnings to the government about the fatal housing insulation program and he had to adhere to the “stale, old” position of not debating nuclear energy.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/opinion/backroom-tv-dealbrcorrupts-our-policy/story-e6frgd0x-1225831555620

THE $250 million gift by the Rudd government to the commercial TV networks is corrupt, not in the sense of brown paper bags but in its corruption of public governance.
Kevin Rudd claimed yesterday the opposition was accusing the government of a cash-for-comment bribe for favourable media coverage, but this wilfully misses the point.
The policy corruption comes in the form of the backroom talks that delivered a special deal to politically well-connected rent-seekers with no public accountability for what the taxpayer gets in return. That is evidence-less policy.
The process that has cut TV licence fees by a third this year and a half next year has been opaque and inconsistent with good policy process. It is the result of backroom political lobbying, hidden from voters, by one of Australia’s most protected industries. Few other companies manage to persuade the government to outlaw any new entrants to their industry — that is a fourth free-to-air commercial network. The OECD slams this protection as a restriction on media diversity.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 1:16 am
Honest question: Is Rudd a goner?

Insulators call for halt to rollout

The Australian also learned Environment Minister Peter Garrett had been warned by industry experts about poor safety standards in the home insulation sector at least five months before it gave $2.45 billion in taxpayer-funded subsidies last year.
“(It’s) an industry awash with untrained installers,” Mr Tikey told the Coalition-led inquiry on its first day of sittings in Melbourne yesterday.

“It’s been . . . a free-for-all
in terms of installers and their expertise.
“Every man and his dog. There is no duty of care.”
Mr Garrett has already suspended foil insulation from the program, amid mounting political pressure over the deaths of four installers and concern over a number of houses being left “live” with electricity.

It was a bad idea to hold a media conference without grasping the agenda
KEVIN Rudd is a proven election campaigner and an accomplished media performer when he is focused and setting the agenda.
As a new Leader of the Opposition, Rudd demonstrated he could concentrate on a single positive message and keep the Coalition government off-balance during the 2007 election.
Yesterday, as Prime Minister, he called a media conference but he was unable to set his intended agenda, strayed into negative topics and got upstaged on the evening television news by Tony Abbott almost getting hit by a truck.
There was no sign of the frontrunning, confident politician in charge of a media conference positively promoting his own policies and deftly smothering the Coalition agenda.

After making a statement about homelessness which normally would have been dealt with by a ministerial press release, the Prime Minister was immediately quizzed on a range of topics that put him in a negative light.
The size of the $250 million tax break to the free-to-air television stations was unfavourably compared to the $10m he announced for homelessness, he couldn’t answer questions about warnings to the government about the fatal housing insulation program and he had to adhere to the “stale, old” position of not debating nuclear energy.

THE $250 million gift by the Rudd government to the commercial TV networks is corrupt, not in the sense of brown paper bags but in its corruption of public governance.
Kevin Rudd claimed yesterday the opposition was accusing the government of a cash-for-comment bribe for favourable media coverage, but this wilfully misses the point.
The policy corruption comes in the form of the backroom talks that delivered a special deal to politically well-connected rent-seekers with no public accountability for what the taxpayer gets in return. That is evidence-less policy.
The process that has cut TV licence fees by a third this year and a half next year has been opaque and inconsistent with good policy process. It is the result of backroom political lobbying, hidden from voters, by one of Australia’s most protected industries. Few other companies manage to persuade the government to outlaw any new entrants to their industry — that is a fourth free-to-air commercial network. The OECD slams this protection as a restriction on media diversity.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 1:18 am
I don’t think Rudd is a goner yet. I think what we’re seeing are the first real cracks in the facade, and the definite end of a long honeymoon. This signals that we’ll have a proper contest at the election, but not that Rudd is out of business. I can’t imagine that the tv bribe will cut through in voterland any more than the plethora of Howard-era bribes did.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 1:27 am
Hi THR:

The latest poll in the OZ from Newspoll says this:

Why Kevin Rudd would win if an election were held tomorrow

When we compare the polling from the last two weeks to the polling from September through November 2009, it indicates that the ALP has lost 3.6 per cent of its primary vote, the Coalition has increased its primary vote by 3.3 per cent, the Greens have increased its primary vote by 0.6 per cent and the Others group have lost 0.3 per cent of its primary vote.

In two party preferred terms, this translates to a 3.3 per cent swing to the Coalition since November.

Compared with the 2007 election, the ALP has lost 2.7 per cent of its primary vote, the Coalition has lost 1.5 per cent of its primary vote, the Greens have increased its primary vote by 3.1 per cent and the Others group has increased its primary vote by 1.1 per cent.

In two party preferred terms, this translates to a small swing of 0.3 per cent to the ALP which, remarkably, would still deliver them 7 seats, following redistributions.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/why-kevin-rudd-would-win-if-an-election-were-held-tomorrow/story-e6frgczf-1225831405320

They’re saying of course labor would win by 7 seats if the election were held tomorrow. Elections are about surfing the wave and this honestly doesn’t sound good for Labor if I’m reading they’re only 7 seats in front while still possibly getting more on the nose.

The TV crap hasn’t filtered into the poll and I’m not sure if they caught the worst of the insulation debacle.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 1:36 am
Rudd yesterday was a disaster. There he was defending a $250 million pay-out to his rich mates after announcing a $10 million program for the homeless.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 2:18 am
I think that, more than Abbott, some of the stinkiness of state ALP governments may be having an impact on Rudd. People don’t always grasp distinctions between state and federal jurisdictions.

The article above has lots of number crunching, but even the author concedes that they need a few months of polling to draw any conclusions.

Ironically, by painting Abbott as a serious contender, I think it helps the ALP, as some voters will still see them as an underdog, or they’ll forego any prospect of a protest vote.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 2:21 am
Also, the perceived strengths of the opposition – like economic management and defence – have been neutralised, if not totally countered. It may be bad economic policy, but Rudd and his cronies have kept the job market and the housing market looking good through the GFC, and that will have relieved quite a few voters.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 2:24 am
Interesting (and from the hard left Age):

Conroy dines out on TV freebies.

STEPHEN Conroy has been a guest of the three main commercial television networks at some of Australia’s biggest sporting events during his time as Communications Minister.

Parliamentary documents reveal that Senator Conroy has attended soccer, football, motor racing and horse racing events as guest of the networks and other companies that depend on his decisions for millions of dollars in revenue.

The disclosures come as Senator Conroy faces continuing pressure over his decision to grant a rebate to the free-to-air networks worth $250 million over the next two years.

Days after that decision, it emerged Senator Conroy had been skiing in Colorado with Seven Network chairman Kerry Stokes last month.

According to the parliamentary documents, some of the freebies enjoyed by Senator Conroy include:

? Tickets to the Melbourne Cup last year as a guest of the Seven Network.

? Tickets to watch his AFL team, Collingwood, take on Essendon and Carlton in separate matches last year as a guest of the Nine Network.

? Tickets to last year’s formula one grand prix in Melbourne as a guest of the Ten Network.

At the grand prix and several spring racing events, Senator Conroy enjoyed the hospitality of multiple hosts on the same day.

Other events he attended include three AFL finals last year (including the grand final), Australian soccer internationals against Uzbekistan, Qatar, Oman and Bahrain, and the Australian Open tennis…

Senator Conroy was in Mt Isa yesterday launching a $250 million national broadband network regional blackspot program, being rolled out under a contract with Nextgen Networks. Nextgen is a subsidiary of Leighton Holdings, whose managing director, Wal King, owns property in Aspen, Colorado, about two hours from where Senator Conroy and Mr Stokes went skiing last month.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 2:25 am
The Age isn’t hard-left. Have a look at the ads in the mags it runs – the products would be too expensive even for (supposedly leftie/luvvie) academics or senior bureaucrats, let alone workers. It’s clearly pitched to the very well-heeled. And Conroy is to the right of several members of the Liberal party.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 2:28 am
Coalition making inroads in all areas.

THE Coalition has recaptured popular leadership on the economy from the Rudd government, which seems to have lost political gains made on economic management during the global financial crisis as the fear of recession in Australia passes and unemployment peaks.
The economy has also dropped dramatically as the top priority in an election year, being overtaken by health and education as the Coalition makes inroads into Labor’s leads on all key issues, including climate change, the environment and water management.

On every main electoral issue, including health and education, support for the Coalition rose and Labor’s fell or remained static to put the Coalition in its best position since the 2007 election.

Also, the perceived strengths of the opposition – like economic management and defence – have been neutralised

Apparently not:

But in a Newspoll survey, conducted exclusively for The Australian last weekend on key election issues, Coalition support on economic management rose five percentage points to 45 per cent and Labor’s support was steady on 40 per cent.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 2:30 am
But in a Newspoll survey, conducted exclusively for The Australian last weekend on key election issues, Coalition support on economic management rose five percentage points to 45 per cent and Labor’s support was steady on 40 per cent.

If they’re even on economic management (as they nearly are here) I’d say the issue is neutralised, especially as the Coalition haven’t had to advertise any concrete alternative proposals to the stimulus package.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 2:33 am
The Age isn’t hard-left. Have a look at the ads in the mags it runs – the products would be too expensive even for (supposedly leftie/luvvie) academics or senior bureaucrats, let alone workers. It’s clearly pitched to the very well-heeled.

Yea, i stopped reading The Age to be honest. i always thought the ads never seemed to match the readership they were attracting and at some stage the advertisers would eventually catch on

This $250 million gift will end up crucifying Rudd, as he’s now lost respect with the punters. It’s hot on the heels of the insulation thing.

There are a few problems for Rudd. I think he has a glass jaw and doesn’t know how to function under real pressure without the voters behind him while losing punter support. He may find it hard to fight back.

The other thing, the most corrosive thing for him I think, is that every time he trips up voters are reminded how badly their own state labor party is performing in Queensland, NSW and now perhaps even in Vic. The effect of this is quite bad for him, i think. Voters begin to think… typical labor.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 2:44 am
That poll shows the government has been neutralised on the economy by the Opposition, THR. Not the other way around.

The other rather odd thing about Rudd lately – including at that woeful debacle of a press conference yesterday – is that he comes across as depressed.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 2:57 am
Hey THR:

Have you ever seen Gamorra(?)? My God that Neapolitan accent is like chalk on a blackboard. It’s quite possibly the most horrible language ever spoken. And a language all by itself I reckon.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 3:06 am
Is he certifiable now?

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – President Barack Obama said on Wednesday a $787 billion stimulus program helped the United States avoid dipping into an economic depression.

I read a funny story somewhere about when he was a kid in Hawaii ( Okay Bird he was in Kenya).

Anyways he was thrown off the basketball side and told to sit on bench. While there he turned to another kid and say the reason he was thrown off was that he was black and that it was a racist decision.

The other kid, a black kid says, ” no it’s not. It’s because you’re not any at shooting hoops”.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 3:20 am
I read yesterday that Evan Bayh (who announced he was bailing earlier this week) was quoted as saying that if he creates one job in private enterprise, it’ll be more than the Congress has created in the past six months. Wow. ‘So long, Mr President. And, by the way, kiss my ass!’

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 3:25 am
Joe Biden gets a memo from Barnaby Joyce:

Vice President Joe Biden says “Washington right now is broken” and the country is in “deep trouble” unless it attacks ballooning federal deficits.

After his boss tripled the deficit, this thought just occurred to Joe.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 3:29 am
Piers Akerman nails Media Watch and Crikey unrecoverably.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 4:33 am
” And Conroy is to the right of several members of the Liberal party.”
You mean because of his internet filtering plans? Just shows how useless L/R classifications are.
It’s much more useful to look at politicians’ view on freedoms: economic, social and such.
Though there aren’t many in the ALP who would score highly.

ken n

18 Feb 10 at 5:45 am
Poor old JC, who cant figure out numbers, says

“this honestly doesn’t sound good for Labor if I’m reading they’re only 7 seats in front while still possibly getting more on the nose.”

An increased majority of 7 seats, smelly one

rog

18 Feb 10 at 6:21 am
Akerman’s digging himself a hole. The Houghton thing just looks Akerman look like he’s manipulating quotes to change the intent of what has been said.

Akerman claims originally houghton says
“Unless we announce disasters no one will listen”

ie we have to scare people to get good policy.

Houghton says
“If we want a good environmental policy in the future we’ll have to have a disaster.”

ie. No good policy will be enacted until a disaster occurs.

Its not a paraphrase as he claims its a manipulation to change the intent.

Steve Edney

18 Feb 10 at 8:58 am
Special pleading, SteveE. It is a clear paraphrase of the original quote especially when you the sentence that follows the original is included:

If we want a good environmental policy in the future we’ll have to have a disaster. The only way humans will act is if there’s been an accident.

In other words:

Unless we announce disasters no one will listen

That’s why every heat wave, hurricance, snow storm, etc. is claimed to be “consistent with” AGW.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 9:08 am
err Snoopy haven’t you heard that warmer temperatures lead to more snowstorms

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

18 Feb 10 at 9:24 am
I just quoted the bits akerman did and DB you have ommitted the sentence in the middle again changing intent. I think you are reading something into it that’s not there.

The fuller quote including the next sentence is

“If we want a good environmental policy in the future, we’ll have to have a disaster. It’s like safety on public transport. The only way humans will act is if there’s been an accident.

He making a simple statement that he believes humans won’t act until after somethig bad occurs.

The doctored quote is quite different as its about “announcing disasters”.

By the way you are also reading to much into “consistent with”. It doesn’t mean caused by.

Steve Edney

18 Feb 10 at 9:27 am
err Snoopy haven’t you heard that warmer temperatures lead to more snowstorms

Yes, Homer, I noticed that ‘suggestion’. So the steady increase in snow extent in the Northern Hemisphere since 1989 is “consistent with” (but not ’caused’ by) AGW? You probably think that is “nothing of note”.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 9:42 am
The other rather odd thing about Rudd lately – including at that woeful debacle of a press conference yesterday – is that he comes across as depressed.
.
It’s entirely possible he is. These guys are only human, after all, and it’s no doubt a very taxing and demanding job. An indicator of the level of stress currently in the cabinet is Peter Garrett. He basically went “fuck it, I need a holiday.”
.
In a weird way, I kind of respect that.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 9:49 am
SteveE, apologies, missing that middle sentence was accidental. I cut and paste the first from your comment and then the last sentence from the original without noticing the middle sentence. Anyhow, I don’t think it changes anything anyway.

As you say, “He['s] making a simple statement that he believes humans won’t act until after somethig bad occurs”, which is to say, but in other words, that: “Unless we announce disasters no one will listen.” The two sentences are not quite different at all. Even in the case of public transport safety, disasters at a level crossing involving semi, cars, pedestrians and train have been necessary in order to improve safety at level crossings. And so far as “announcing disasters” is concerned we heard it often enough that this or that disaster was the result of AGW or in their more circumspect moments we were told to expect a greater frequency of like disaster as a result of AGW unless we acted now. This is simply undeniable.

BTW, I know it doesn’t mean caused, but I’m interested in teasing out what is inconsistent with AGW.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 9:53 am
No more than suggestion a paper delivered in 2006 to American Meteorological Society on the temperature and snowstorms in North America.

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

18 Feb 10 at 9:54 am
We now have Antarctic-gate:

So, the peer reviewed literature, both extant at the time of the AR4 as well as published since the release of the AR4, shows that there has been a significant increase in the extent of sea ice around Antarctica since the time of the first satellite observations observed in the late 1970s. And yet the AR4 somehow “assessed” the evidence and determined not only that the increase was only half the rate established in the peer-reviewed literature, but also that it was statistically insignificant as well. And thus, the increase in sea ice in the Antarctic was downplayed in preference to highlighting the observed decline in sea ice in the Arctic.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/17/ipcc-gate-du-jour-antarctic-sea-ice-increase-underestimated-by-50/#more-16486

Note that the authors of AR4 referred to the increase in sea ice extent as “statistically insignificant” even though the AR3 referred to the increase in sea ice extent in Antarctica as “statistically significant”. The AR4 lead authors did this and said that the “statistically insignificant” result was a ‘continuation’ of previous trends even though the AR3 noted the trend as “statistically significant”; not a ‘continuation’ of an existing trend but a new one. In doing so, it ignored several peer reviewed studies which all noted “statistically significant” increases in sea ice extent preferring to rely on an analysis in book chapter written by one of the co-authors of the relevant AR4 WGI chapter which was then updated to include data upto 2005. Interestingly, when they later added an extra year and published their results in a journal they found that, contra to their earlier result, the increase in sea ice extent in Antarctica was “statistical significant”. The stench now emanates from WGI.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 10:20 am
Dover, how many AGW “gates” is there?

tal

18 Feb 10 at 10:33 am
Dover, how many AGW “gates” is there?

Tal, can you wait while I take my shoes off?

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 10:36 am
Don’t worry Dover we’ll get the PM the set up a “gatewatch”

tal

18 Feb 10 at 10:41 am
Graeme has brought one of his defamatory classics to the front

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2009/03/27/our-most-stupid-prime-minister-ever/

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 10:41 am
“err Snoopy haven’t you heard that warmer temperatures lead to more snowstorms”

That gives rise to Pielke’s criticisms – there is less variation from the poles to the equator. There should be less storms.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 10:41 am
Bored now.

BirdLab

18 Feb 10 at 10:42 am
It’s like a mardi-gras of psychosis, Jason.

BirdLab

18 Feb 10 at 10:52 am
Bored BirdLab? Here this is entertain you
http://vimeo.com/6194911

tal

18 Feb 10 at 10:55 am
so this is what Mencius Moldbug looks like.

gosh the gathering looks like a Star Trek convention. Not surprising given the topic of the debate

http://vimeo.com/9262193

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 10:57 am
SRL, that’s right. But we also have to note that we’re not talking about a anomalous snow storm here; snow cover has increased on average by 100,000 km squared over the last 20 years during the period Dec-Feb.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/17/northern-hemisphere-snow-extent-second-highest-on-record/

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 11:01 am
Snoopy the latest satellite data shows that far from an increase in ice in Antarctic and Greenland it is thinning far more quickly than previously predicted in other words the IPPC has UNDERESTIMATED this.

See Nature 461, 971-975 (15 October 2009)
Extensive dynamic thinning on the margins of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets
Hamish D. Pritchard1, Robert J. Arthern1, David G. Vaughan1 & Laura A. Edwards2

1.British Antarctic Survey, Natural Environment Research Council, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 0ET, UK
2.School of Geographical Sciences, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1SS, UK

Pielke, Monkton and now Watts.

Butterfield, Bloomfield & Bishop

18 Feb 10 at 11:08 am
“So the steady increase in snow extent in the Northern Hemisphere since 1989 is “consistent with” (but not ’caused’ by) AGW?”

Its hardly steady as becomes clear when you plot the entire series.

I point out that having just plotted this myself, if you take a trend over any longer period than 1989- 2010 the increase is much less than the 1989-2010 rate, if you take the full series 1966 – 2010, its basically flat (-400 km^2/year). Starting at a low point (3rd lowest on record) gives a false impression of a steady rise.

Its also exagerated by looking at only the winter cover. If you do regression on all data summer and winter there is a decline of around 80,000 km^2/year 1966-2010. Actually for almost all period except the last 5 years you see a marked decline in the whole year coverage.

Steve Edney

18 Feb 10 at 11:11 am
Snoopy the latest satellite data shows that far from an increase in ice in Antarctic and Greenland it is thinning far more quickly than previously predicted in other words the IPPC has UNDERESTIMATED this.

I’m talking about snow cover in the North hemisphere, Homer. See here:

http://climate.rutgers.edu/snowcover/chart_daily.php?ui_year=2010&ui_day=44&ui_set=

So far as the paper you reference is concerned, it is talking about ‘thinning at the edges’. A possible explanation of what is going on in and along the Greenland coast is here:

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=7545&tid=282&cid=69134&ct=162

So far as Antarctica is concerned, sea ice extent is increasing:

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seaice.anomaly.antarctic.png

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 11:21 am
Its hardly steady as becomes clear when you plot the entire series.

The same can be said about the temp series.

I point out that having just plotted this myself, if you take a trend over any longer period than 1989- 2010 the increase is much less than the 1989-2010 rate, if you take the full series 1966 – 2010, its basically flat (-400 km^2/year). Starting at a low point (3rd lowest on record) gives a false impression of a steady rise.

I don’t see how that improves your case, Steve. When I said steady I didn’t mean monotonic. The strongest warming has arguably been from 1970s onwards yet we still see a avoerage rise in snow cover in the NH. And when we extend it into the depths of the period of cooling post-WWII we find no significant change.

Its also exagerated by looking at only the winter cover. If you do regression on all data summer and winter there is a decline of around 80,000 km^2/year 1966-2010. Actually for almost all period except the last 5 years you see a marked decline in the whole year coverage.

So we see significantly less snow cover in summer and slightly more or no change in winter except for the last 5 years where we’ve seen more snow cover in both summer and winter.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 11:31 am
Hey JC,

I saw Gomorrah a few months ago. It’s ironic – the Chinese characters in the movie speak more comprehensibly than the locals. I think the Neapolitan dialect may be recognised as a language of it’s own (Sicilian is recognised as its own language, at least, on Wikipedia).
Then again, what’s the difference between a language and a dialect? A standing army, as some linguists say.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 11:32 am
Homer, my response to you is awaiting moderation.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 11:32 am
Homer, my response to you is awaiting moderation.
.
Therefore, your response has lots of links.
Therefore, you’re expending way too much effort in arguing with Homer.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 11:46 am
So we see significantly less snow cover in summer and slightly more or no change in winter…

Yes.

… except for the last 5 years where we’ve seen more snow cover in both summer and winter.

Not quite the annual average snow cover has increased over the last 5 years compared with 5 yeras ago, but is still below the average for the entire data set. (the two lowest periods being around 1988-91, 2004-2006)

Steve Edney

18 Feb 10 at 11:52 am
THR:

Yea, good point. The Chinese are understandable while the Neapolitans require subtitles. Lol. Subtitles for other Italians too I might add.

Good movie. I would think it was true to life.

I think Scorcese had a hand in it. That dude does really good movies.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 11:53 am
I don’t see how that improves your case, Steve. When I said steady I didn’t mean monotonic. The strongest warming has arguably been from 1970s onwards yet we still see a avoerage rise in snow cover in the NH. And when we extend it into the depths of the period of cooling post-WWII we find no significant change.

Sorry should have included this with the above.

My case such as it is is merely that the reported large increase over the last 20 years, is an artifact of data selection. Its similar to reporing rainfall decline in australia by plotting since the 1950s rather than the entire data series.

Steve Edney

18 Feb 10 at 12:02 pm
Graeme has brought one of his defamatory classics to the front

Ah yes…. the Rudd and Obama must be gay one.

Lardulous is a very militant heterosexual, isn’t he?

JC

18 Feb 10 at 12:06 pm
PETER Garrett revealed today he is now considering an audit of solar panels installed under a government scheme amid fire fears.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/audit-talks-over-solar-panel-fire-fears/story-e6frgczf-1225831680299

You just gotta laugh. I’m not blaming Lurch for this one as how could he know this “technology” (using the word loosely here) is about as useful as a tits on a bull, or more aptly, Homer’s contribution to intellectual discourse on economics.

So let me get this straight: Solar panels can’t produce energy and catch on fire and this one of the two major renewable elements of the ETS. Hahahahahhaahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha

People are going to look back at this swill and laugh. A tidy little subsidy whore (solar) catches on fire. Hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

You just can’t make this shit up.

Yes Kev, Please give us the ETS so we can install solar panels to reach our renewable target and let our buildings/cities catch on fire. You just gotta laugh.

I’m shorting more of these disgusting subsidy whores later this evening.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 12:21 pm
When he’s not forcing himself onto defenceless marmosets, yes.

BirdLab

18 Feb 10 at 12:23 pm
My case such as it is is merely that the reported large increase over the last 20 years, is an artifact of data selection. Its similar to reporing rainfall decline in australia by plotting since the 1950s rather than the entire data series.

Is it? BTW, I don’t see a decline in rainfall from 1950 to the present but the reverse (I’d like to see that graph with the last 7 years if anyone can track one down)

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/rain.shtml

which is consistent with an increase in snow cover during the North hemisphere winter.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 12:32 pm
Hey, Didn’t MetroMick once say he’d installed a solar panel and was going to make large lumps of money selling power to the grid and become as rich as fellow Queenslander, Clive Palmer doing so?

I wonder how that’s working out.

He’d better check that contraption he’s installed on the roof.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 12:33 pm
maybe that’s why he hasn’t been around JC …

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 12:35 pm
Yea Jase. That’s why we probably haven’t heard form him.

——————–

Solar panels also target firefighters.

Although no fires have occurred in Australia, the union argues that the electrical current in the panels can remain live after the power has been shut down and points overseas where a number of firefighters have been killed through electrocution.

What is it with Lurch and electrocution…? Everything he seems to touch or be near gets electrocuted.

My advice, don’t be anywhere near Lurch in a thunder storm.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 12:40 pm
#

So Adrien you’re lazy and you like to kill things hmmmm
.
So?
.
Adrien, the world is run by the mediocre. If you want that to change, run for office yourself.
.
John what did I ever do to you?

Adrien

18 Feb 10 at 12:44 pm
Didn’t MetroMick once say he’d installed a solar panel
.
I don’t know why. Considering the guy has such huge reserves of natural gas.

Adrien

18 Feb 10 at 12:45 pm
Labor’s IR scare campaign is shaping up well.

New ad being workshopped now:

Voice-over (Bill Hunter): “Sure, Mr Rudd and Mr Garrett ignored 13 warnings and got four workers killed – including an intellectually disabled teenager – and rendered thousands of Working Families’ houses potential death traps. Sure. But Tony Abbott is worse. He wears Speedos during Surf Lifesaving Carnivals. Tony Abbott: he hates Working Families.”

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 12:47 pm
John what did I ever do to you?

3 terms and you’re set for life Adrien. All you have to do is repeat phrases like “if I can just say this” “this is the government’s first priority” “stone the crows mate” “crisis” “no nuclear power plants” “the minister has my full confidence” and travel around the world a lot.

John H.

18 Feb 10 at 12:49 pm
Currency Lad – As tragic as those deaths are it does not compare to the crime against humanity Abbott committed in imposing his squashed tennis ball on the rest of us. Please think of the children!

Adrien

18 Feb 10 at 12:51 pm
But you become a hideous monster, physically and spiritually.

Adrien

18 Feb 10 at 12:53 pm
The tragedy, CL, is that is not a send-up.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 12:54 pm
I’m giving up listening to the PM for Lent, oh and mojitos

tal

18 Feb 10 at 1:01 pm
CL, there you go again bringing up Tony’s speedos out of the blue. (Yesterday it was links to photos.) Quite an interest in the topic you have going there. :O

steve from brisbane

18 Feb 10 at 1:04 pm
This f**ker only got a minimum of two years!!!!
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/former-teacher-george-iliakis-jailed-for-at-least-two-years-over-child-porn-offences/story-e6frf7jo-1225831711250

tal

18 Feb 10 at 1:08 pm
Steve, no, you’re the one who writes daily essays here on Tony Abbott, his attire, beliefs (as distorted by you) and how much you generally dislike him. My links were to pictures of Abbott with women – contra the view expressed at oestrogen central (LP) that he exercises exclusively with men. It amazes me how casually you passively-aggressively lie. You appear to be obsessed with Abbott. Yesterday, you cited your experience with lay-about public servants in relation to his exercise regime. That one at least gave me a laugh. Smiley.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 1:32 pm
Tal,

the research on child pornography has been unable to demonstrate a clear link between pornography offences and ‘hands on’ offences.

What this means in practice is that child pornographers like this fellow will have lawyers who commission the services of some rent-a-stooge psych, who in turn will charge a couple of grand for a report that says the offender is really a nice man, low risk of re-offending, excellent prospects for rehabilitation, etc.

In many cases, child pornography offences receive no custodial sentence whatsoever, or at most, a few months in a minimum security farm-type place.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 1:36 pm
Sorry CL, I was out to annoy you, and I should have given that up for Lent.

steve from brisbane

18 Feb 10 at 1:39 pm
THR:

Let me say first before anyone thinks this is a cue in support of these horrible people that child porn is vile abusive , evil stuff.

However I really can’t see why consumers of child porn are being put into jail. They aren’t the ones forcing kids to commit terrible acts.

I truly think this is wrong.

The suppliers of course are a different story. Hang them in the town square wouldn’t particularly worry me much, figuratively speaking.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 1:41 pm
But I won’t give up on Tony “Iron Man who has just learnt how to iron” Abbott.

steve from brisbane

18 Feb 10 at 1:41 pm
I expect he’s never learned to do more than boil an egg too.

steve from brisbane

18 Feb 10 at 1:42 pm
Aren’t the consumers complicit to a degree? The child traffickers in Russia or Cambodia or wherever wouldn’t be producing this stuff gratis.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 1:43 pm
No, I don’t think they are complicit to the crime as they aren’t the “people” attacking the victims. The immediate perpetrators are.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 1:45 pm
I agree with JC

the consumers of the stuff are sick bastards who should be sent to a mental ward. the suppliers should be executed the same way Mussolini was far as I’m concerned.

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 1:48 pm
Why I hate parents!!! She’s taking the piss right?
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/why-i-hate-parents-that-means-you/

tal

18 Feb 10 at 1:51 pm
Execute the consumer and the producer. Slowly.

Infidel Tiger

18 Feb 10 at 1:57 pm
I’m sure that’s true, Steve, but I’m yet to read a report of him reducing a flight attendant to tears because an egg wasn’t brought to him cooked just right.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 1:59 pm
Steve
I don’t really know how to iron either. I suppose this is a hangable offence in Prodeo world.

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 2:01 pm
Is it? BTW, I don’t see a decline in rainfall from 1950 to the present but the reverse (I’d like to see that graph with the last 7 years if anyone can track one down)

Sorry I was thinking of the South eastern Australia rainfall not the whole Australia one. Nth Australia has increased in recent years and this dominates the Australian graph. Southwestern australia is the only region which seems to show a long term decline.

The graphs here show the data up to 2009 and have the benefit of being able slice them into region, and seasonal effects.

http://reg.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/silo/reg/cli_chg/timeseries.cgi?variable=rain&region=seaus&season=0112

Steve Edney

18 Feb 10 at 2:03 pm
“I really can’t see why consumers of child porn are being put into jail. They aren’t the ones forcing kids to commit terrible acts”.

Stupid even for you JC.

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 2:03 pm
I have a great ironing tip, pay someone to do it for you.

tal

18 Feb 10 at 2:05 pm
Not really, SDFC. It basically borders on thought crime.

There’s a ton of things people shouldn’t think about, but they do.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 2:09 pm
Joe Biden declares:

I refuse to accept the notion that the United States of America is not going to lead the world economically throughout the 20th century.

A heartbeat away…

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 2:11 pm
However I really can’t see why consumers of child porn are being put into jail. They aren’t the ones forcing kids to commit terrible acts.

If you are a paying consumer you are paying someone to do the terrible acts and are complicit. By and large consumers should be punished on this basis and since it is difficult to prove whether they paid for it I believe the presumption should be that they did.

Of course there could be some other cases, where kids are not harmed but say unknowingly photographed in the nude and this is “used” in private by the photographer with no one knowing. Is anyone harmed by this and should this be a crime?

That seems more tricky but I can easily see why we might want to err on the side of making it all illegal.

Steve Edney

18 Feb 10 at 2:13 pm
CL have you seen Joe today? He looks like Obama put a smoke out on his forehead

tal

18 Feb 10 at 2:15 pm
Did he say that? Forgetting the fact that he’s got the wrong century seeing Biden is an idiot. How the fuck does a VP go on TV and tell the nation, the leading economy in the world that it fucked?

He should be given his old seat back and avoid all this damage.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 2:15 pm
oops that it’s f..ked

JC

18 Feb 10 at 2:16 pm
CL, I seem to confuse you by going on about how I dislike Abbott. I was hating Rudd fakery (and puzzling over why the public seemed to like him) long before I starting dissing Tony. It’s even possible that if Abbott took a brave stand on deploying nuclear, he would earn back my vote as being sound on climate change and the environment. But I doubt that is going to happen.

steve from brisbane

18 Feb 10 at 2:23 pm
some people call it murder. I call it ‘taking out the trash’.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/assassination-squad-how-a-hamas-militant-met-his-end-in-dubai-20100217-odzq.html

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 2:29 pm
Poor Tone. To secure the elusive “steve” dempographic he has to introduce nuclear power, iron a shirt to military parade standards and a boil an egg in his Speedos.

Infidel Tiger

18 Feb 10 at 2:29 pm
There is no “climate change” worth worrying about so it wouldn’t be “brave” to address a non-existent problem – a “problem” Australia can do nothing about anyway. Nukes should be pursued as an issue but Abbott can hardly be expected to turn around the influence of 40 years of Labor and left-wing hysteria on the subject. But, in any case, we’ve got a couple of thousand years worth of coal so there’s really no point worrying about it. It’s all good.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 2:30 pm
I’m with JC. Some people have no morals or boundaries about what perverse files they download. That’s not even remotely the same crime as actually abusing a child.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 2:31 pm
Change:

Yes, they ARE missing Dubya! Shopping web site reports spike in sales of Bush items.

Items featuring a smiling former President George Bush and the question, “Miss Me Yet?” are doing a brisk business as sales of pro-President Obama items lag, reports the Web shopping site CafePress.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 2:34 pm
JC and SFDC made an assertion elsewhere that the CAD funds Australian housing bubbles. I’m sceptical. Convince me.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 2:37 pm
I’m giving up listening to the PM for Lent
.
You’re s’posed to give up things you actually want to do for Lent, Tal.

Adrien

18 Feb 10 at 2:43 pm
DD,

If viewing abuse leads to abuse of a child, then it is not very different to abuse and needs harsh punishment.

There are oddities in sex crimes. You cannot have sex with your mother by second marriage – even if she is five years older than you and 25 years younger than your Dad. This still counts as “incest”, although being totally divorced from the normal meaning of the term. You cannot even write about taboo subjects, as these count as “pornography”.

I’d say 1. is from the B&B and 2. is a thought crime. With regards to 2. there are historical documents of a similar nature, regardless of palatability.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 2:49 pm
“No, I don’t think they are complicit to the crime as they aren’t the “people” attacking the victims. The immediate perpetrators are.”

“I’m with JC. Some people have no morals or boundaries about what perverse files they download. That’s not even remotely the same crime as actually abusing a child.”

Umm, if you buy stolen goods you’re an accessory after the fact.

Pedro

18 Feb 10 at 2:51 pm
There are oddities in sex crimes. You cannot have sex with your mother by second marriage

Jeez SRL what prompted that? sounds like the plot from an old Joan Collins movie

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 2:52 pm
Thanks Steve. The interesting thing there is that SW Australia has higher annual rainfall totals compared to SE Australia which is not something I would have guessed. Also, southern Australia shows no trend over the same period.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 2:53 pm
JC

On the child porn stuff, I am kinda with you. The strongest argument against de-criminalization is that if you cut off demand, you might cut off supply. But the fact that law-enforcement agencies are behind the ball is no justification for criminalizaing men jacking off alone in their living rooms or wherever.

My reaction to finding out somebody I knew did that would probably reflexively to want to punch their lights out. But, if I take a second, that reaction would turn to “maaaate, you poor thing, let’s get you some help.”

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 3:01 pm
SRL

I don’t think the CAD funds the boom at all and if I sounded like I made that assertion then it’s my fault.

I think however that funding from overseas places us in a far more vulnerable position than we should be.

My suggestion is that we should always be doing things to raise capital formation domestically, by lowering tax burdens, reducing spending and removing regulatory hurdles.

I would also take another look at monetary policy and see if there are ways to improve settings.

People like SDFC always look at the OECD and use that as a measure suggesting we’re doing fine which to me looks like a cop out as the OECD is infested with interventionist countries who aren’t doing “fine” at all.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 3:02 pm
PP from what I’ve read a lot of these people become adddicted to the stuff after getting bored with ‘normal’ porn, searching around for more outrageous stuff and then getting hooked on it.

In that sense it’s not really the same as some otherwise normal Joe suddenly thinking ‘hey I crave this stuff’ and then contacting some Russian and paying him to kidnap and photograph a kid. otherwise how do you explain the sudden explosion in people into this stuff since the rise of the Net?

so to some extent it’s an accidental discovery awakening something latent in these people and they go on doing it because to them the stuff is just out there and all they’re doing is clicking on a mouse.

they are culpable but nowhere to the same degree as the producers./

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 3:07 pm
I agree, Dads. That’s my point exactly.

It’s quite disturbing talking about this stuff and it rightly ought to be sensitive seeing kids are involved. However I don’t see this evil stuff as anything more than thought crimes which I immediately react to.

Go after the suppliers and look after the consumers by enticing them to go into a psyche ward as they’re sick people.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 3:07 pm
Sorry Pedro, but opening up a website and sticking that ugly crap in a file is not the same as peddling in stolen goods.

I don’t see the connection.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 3:10 pm
at 3.07 I meant Peter…. Not Dads, sorry.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 3:11 pm
jtfsoon

There is an absolute epidemic of hard-hard ADULT core porn preferences, satisfied by the Net. Without wishing to get too graphic, lots and lots of anal, spitting, defecating, sadism, hitting. A lot of this was starting to take place back when Brett Easton Ellis was writing his ‘novels’ like Less Than Zero.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 3:13 pm
PP: You snob. The movie was good.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 3:20 pm
“Jeez SRL what prompted that? sounds like the plot from an old Joan Collins movie”

That said, the state shouldn’t punish you for making your life into a real soap opera.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 3:26 pm
Nothing wrong with Brett Easton Ellis’ novels. American Psycho was a great read.

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 3:26 pm
Hey, I can’t be too much of snob. I actually read it cover to cover, and The Rules of Attraction and – most of – American Psycho!

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 3:28 pm
PP will come out next saying he doesn’t like Bonfire of the Vanities.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 3:28 pm
American Psycho is not really about serial killers. it’s Swiftian satire. I found it quite funny.

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 3:30 pm
Oh no. I was into the whole Easton Ellis/Donna Tartt/Jay MacInerny thang.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 3:31 pm
Peter:

There are several things that causes me to immediately recoil whenever I read them as an into.

These are “Epidemic” and “wake-up-call”. Both are left-speak warning you that you’re about to be bullshitted to by some leftie with a bunch of stats that he or she has manipulated to promote some phony “outrage”.

The so-called porn epidemic is no more than the market doing it’s job of satisfying consumer wants and desires. There is an increased consumption of porn because these days, unlike previous users, usually males I’d imagine, don’t have to head to the newsagent or the adult book center and buy limited supply from another person thereby causing embarrassment.

In other words , there is no “epidemic” at all. The reality seems to be that males like looking at porn and the easier it is to deliver it the more they will look at it.

(Personally at my age, i can’t imagine anything more boring looking at the same variations of a large breasted valley gal with a penis implanted somewhere in her body. But hey everyone’s different).

There’s no epidemic. It’s just the market doing it’s magical thing. Giving people what they want, perhaps even for free.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 3:32 pm
Can someone make obligatory comments about traditional porn outlets being unviable? I am thinking of too many double entendres to finish off this comment with.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 3:41 pm
I recently turned down a second round of interviews from a potential employer. They sent me back a rejection letter.

Does this mean I have the job?

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 3:42 pm
American Psycho is not really about serial killers. it’s Swiftian satire. I found it quite funny.

There was one scene, where they were sitting in a diner, which was the same diner I used to go to for a Sunday lunch filling of a decent burger and chips.

Those Greek dudes made the best “french Fries” (which are chips to the un-anointed) in the whole of Manhattan. The perfect size, perfectly cooked with a crispiness you can’t imagine and perfectly timed when served at just the right temperature. even the burgers which as far as their burgers go are nowhere near the quality we have here were pretty decent.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 3:46 pm
I have a mate who is in the ‘hotel business’ who claims that business has dropped off quite a bit because people are no longer using bars to pick people up, but instead stay at home using all those online *cough* ‘dating’ *cough* sites.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 3:48 pm
American Psycho is worth just for the business card scene and the chapters on Huey Lewis and Phil Collins.

Infidel Tiger

18 Feb 10 at 3:49 pm
Isn’t part of the problem in discussing child porn the fact that it can range in seriousness from simple nude shots of 5 year olds to shots of actual sexual interference with a child? While I can understand not going over the top on punishing viewers of the former, I would find it much harder to argue that the viewer of the later is not potentially deserving of jail for sustaining its production.

steve from brisbane

18 Feb 10 at 3:53 pm
steve

But then you are punishing somebody for somebody else’s crime. Nobody is forcing the kiddie porn merchants to make the stuff in the first place.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 3:58 pm
I have a mate who is in the ‘hotel business’ who claims that business has dropped off quite a bit because people are no longer using bars to pick people up….

I have a silly prediction which may come true.

Home entertainment hardware gets more sophisticated, men date less and don’t marry as their “needs” will be more than satisfied through hyper reality entertainment where they can have a tailor-made relationship with a virtual reality chick (10) of their choice.

That will be the final comeuppance (no pun) to the feminist movement and the anti-male laws besetting western countries as males collectively tell gals to fuck-off with all those laws behind them.

I bought a very small sprinkling of computer games makers for the very long term just on this very roll of the dice alone. Nothing heavy but one of these, hopefully one I own, could be a 1 in a million shot.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 3:59 pm
Pedro:
if you buy stolen goods you’re an accessory after the fact.
very good point. As your example shows, there’s precedent that benefiting from crime, knowingly (such as getting stolen goods), can be made a crime.
But – everyone understands that “recieving stolen goods” is a different crime than breaking into someone’s house and nicking their iphone and DVD player. This topic, on the other hand, is so emotionally charged the difference is blurred.
They’re both crimes… but they’re different crimes.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 4:03 pm
jc

I can assure you, it takes two to tango! I know TWO women, one in her mid-thirties, and one 45, who met their husbands on these sites, BUT only after months and months of ‘booty calls’.

I just could not believe these friends of mine were putting their photos on their Net, and obsessively waiting for guys to respond. After a while, they would often dispense with such old-fashioned formalities of meeting for a coffee or a drink, let alone dinner and a show.

All it took was one email, an OK looking photo, and the invitation was immediately dispatched to be at their house within the hour!

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 4:06 pm
Trouble seems to follow Dr Amy Bishop
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2010/02/my-brush-with-the-alabama-shooters-psych/index.shtml

tal

18 Feb 10 at 4:11 pm
she looks like someone who’s had an ‘operation’.

hey is that Phil?

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 4:16 pm
Yes, but their probably good looking guys and their new found friends were too.

There’s something new these markets in meeting are causing and that’s the better looking males end up with all the chicks like Harem kings.

Women would rather go without for a years before they succumb to a male they think isn’t worth a mere squint. Hence the huge market for hyper reality entertainment.

The dirty little secret in the computer games business is the race exactly for this sort of product. Get there first and you will be twice as rich as Gates and Buffet combined, I reckon.

Noticed one thing after “Avatar”? There was noise how the TV makers were coming out with 3D TV sets this year. I don’t really know how good they are or anything and my guess is that they will be underwhelming. However the other thing I noticed was (reported in the WSJ) that the LA porn movie houses were quick to follow up by announcing they’d be coming out with 3D porn. One of the bigger players in the porn business was actually linking up, according to the WSJ, with a big time computer game player. Of course the name of the game maker was kept secret as they don’t want to be publicly associated with the equivalent of Aids carriers in the business world, so the fact that is happening is pretty important in my mind

This is a petty big wave in the entertainment business.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 4:18 pm
JC

I have to say that both matches are quite perfect. They are sincerely suited to each other, sincerely and obviously love each other, and now have kids. Something’s obviously going right in the whole “cybersex” space.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 4:20 pm
No JC any demand for that stuff is encouraging supply. I’d rather protect the rights of a child than a pervert anytime.

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 4:24 pm
One more thing – those consumers of child porn are actively engaged in harming others by not only condoning it but by getting pleasure from it.

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 4:27 pm
PP
I think this human cyber-interaction is potentially the biggest area of the internet and could turn into a bubble. The real puzzle is to figure out where it comes from, who makes the money and my rough guess is that it’s genesis will be the games makers.

As of 2 odd years ago they were equaling Hollywood’s revenues with much, much larger margins as they don’t have to pay all those shitty actors huge sums instead just hire a bunch of relatively high paid geeks with vivid imaginations.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 4:27 pm
Yea, SDFC, we’ve heard that argument before about protecting the victims.

How’s the drug war working out by the way? Remind me again?

Not suggesting that drugs and child porn are directly analogous but only in the pathetic attempts at cutting demand.

In fact the pathetic cutting demand is one excuse Controy is using in his pathetic attempt to censure the internet to Chinese regime levels in some respects.

Great job. Let’s take on thought crimes.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 4:32 pm
One more thing – those consumers of child porn are actively engaged in harming others by not only condoning it but by getting pleasure from it.

They are not the suppliers and in most cases are possibly not even paying for it, SDFC. So there’s no direct nexus between the supplier and the consumer.

Go ahead, be my guest and hunt down the evil fuckers paying money for the evil crap as they are directly aiding and abetting the supply. However that’s different.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 4:36 pm
More good news on the nuclear technology-will-be-king front.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703444804575071402124482176.html?mod=djemITP_h

Rudd’s response: We’re subsidizing solar to help burn your house down.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 4:46 pm
SDFC

as I said a lot of these people stumble on what’s *already* out there. in an indirect sense they are creating demand – the pornographers find they get lots of hits. however isn’t a lot of this stuff simply put up unsolicited by people who are abusing their kids anyway?

so it’s not the same thing as someone calling up some Russian child slaver and paying him to kidnap some kids.

jtfsoon

18 Feb 10 at 4:50 pm
I have to agree with jtfsoon on the economics. The sick stuff would get made regardless. I don’t get the impression that the producers of this porn do so because they make a fortune from pay-walled sites. It seems a lot if it gets passed around from producer to producer, except increasingly a lot of other men, are happening to stumble across it as well.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 4:56 pm
I doubt there’d be too much stumbling across “5 year old anal boys and girls” if we had beheadings in the public square.

Infidel Tiger

18 Feb 10 at 5:00 pm
as I said a lot of these people stumble on what’s *already* out there.

This is surely not true. There are lots of legit sites with pop-ups for Britney’s boobs or Paris’ sex tape, but I’ve never heard of anybody stumbling onto child pornography.

Also, this idea that consumers of child porn are just on the same continuum as regular porn users is unwittingly making a radical anti-porn argument, by positing a link between the ‘normal’ stuff and that which is illegal and coercive.

Finally, how can actually purchasing child porn, and directly funding the pornographers be a non-crime? How is it different to buying illegals arms off a weapons dealer?

THR

18 Feb 10 at 5:11 pm
Ah, because masturbating alone in your room doesn’t blow thousands of people to smithereens? Also, I think everybody here has explicitly NOT said that porn featuring consenting adults is the same as kiddie porn. In fact, just about everyone has used words like “sick” “pervert” and their cognates.

While you are no doubt right that many consumers know exactly what they are looking for and where to get it, the cyber-porn revenue model has a significant ‘click-through’ element, where a site proprietor will pay a tiny amount to any site that links through to his site. So, while you might be clicking around looking at 19 year olds in the nuddie, it doesn’t take many clicks for an option to go younger to be presented, and so on…

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 5:21 pm
“The real puzzle is to figure out where it comes from, who makes the money and my rough guess is that it’s genesis will be the games makers.”

Joe,

You might gain some insight by visiting:

reversecowgirlblog.blogspot.com

Which was detailing the prOn industry in the San Fernando Valley, conveniently located just a few hours from Palo Alto.

Mainly writing, not too many NSFW pics, if any.

BirdLab

18 Feb 10 at 5:30 pm
lol… that’s a very funny site, lab. 100 years time dudes will be making love to better looking robots that don’t talk back, only use batteries and all too happy to make dinner and iron with a smile. What would there be not to like? hahahahaha

JC

18 Feb 10 at 5:40 pm
Careful what you wish for Joe

tal

18 Feb 10 at 5:51 pm
people that are supporting tough laws against child porn stuff are actually lending support to Controy’s abuse of a free and open web.

By all means go after the sick fucks that pay for this evil junk, but those loons that are consuming it for free don’t any have any direct connection to the suppliers and legal sanctions against them is nothing more than thought crime that helps fester a nanny state.

Laws and shit have consequences people. One doesn’t have always make laws against something to be revolted.

There are lots of things we despise but the real question is if it necessitates a law against it and would it make things better. In the strict case I’m talking about, I don’t see how it does and it often always manifests itself by shit heads like Controy turning up and wanting to control the 99.9999999% of those who are innocent.

Never support thought crime laws. They are more evil than the things they are trying to clamp down.

Legalization does not condone something.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 5:51 pm
naaa tal, I’m more than happy with the real thing.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 5:52 pm
This is why the Howard Stern show on the American E channel is so great. A true American cultural icon that ought to be up there with the greats and exemplifying what is the unparalleled genius of Western culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myjG3rsUbk4&feature=player_embedded#

JC

18 Feb 10 at 6:03 pm
American Psycho? A great read? Hell yeah. I have the recipe:
.
1. Take a bunch of Penthouse ‘Forum’ letters, slice off the ends;
.
2. Take one bunch $1 Horror porn titles from a Urban Wastland Supermarket and clip all the really yucky paragraphs out, blend with ‘Forum’ clippings.
.
3. Create a Tom Wolfe attire taxonomy with ingredients carefully selected from the fashion ads of the nearest available style mag;
.
4. Blend together in a sauce of 20th century American literary economy as envisaged by an Illinois copywriter.
.
5. Bake in a Hype Crust for way too long.
.
Sorry reading Nabakov right now. Brings out the Highbrow in me.

Adrien

18 Feb 10 at 6:21 pm
Ah, because masturbating alone in your room doesn’t blow thousands of people to smithereens?
.
What? You mean they lied at Saint Sebastian’s Boarding School For Wayward Boys? Like, my whole worldview just collapsed.

Adrien

18 Feb 10 at 6:26 pm
DB wakes up the inmates with

“We now have Antarctic-gate”

Catallaxy is a gated community

rog

18 Feb 10 at 6:29 pm
yea, perhaps it should be gated, Rog. That way we’d stop loons like you from entering. That’s the reason there are gated communities, you mirthless fool.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 6:31 pm
As De Gaulle once said, “don’t fence me in.”

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 6:33 pm
People who consume kiddie porn are complicit in its production, they being the reason for it, which means they are complicit in the offence. Even though Gary Glitter would not be enough by himself to sustain a kiddie porn business, I find it difficult to see how he does not bear some of the responsibility for hideous crimes. That nature of the consumption would surely be relevant to questions as to whether prosecution is warranted and the severity of the penalty.

Watching kiddie porn is not merely a thought crime because it is the reason the production crime occurs.

How is buying kiddie porn different from buying a DVD player off the back of a truck?

Pedro

18 Feb 10 at 6:44 pm
“people that are supporting tough laws against child porn stuff are actually lending support to Controy’s abuse of a free and open web.”

JC, I’m against drink driving but I don’t want to ban roads.

Pedro

18 Feb 10 at 6:45 pm
Adrien

I labored over whether to choose a different word from ‘blow’ but I thought, “nah, this’ll be fun to see who bites first.”

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 6:46 pm
Pedro, Gary Glitter was convicted for actual rape of children, not as a consumer of internet porn. I think you’re missing the point. To use an analogy, you’re comparing a Houston accountant who snorts cocaine to the drug lord in Mexico who recently decapitated a rival’s head and turned it into a soccer ball.

An argument making the two morally identical is actually quite sick. Some bozo jerking off to a picture of an eight year old is the same as someone kidnapping, raping and prostituting out to others that same eight year old? Anyone who believes that is deranged. The reason the authorities make such PR hey about their parade of bozo consumers is to placate an understandably concerned public and lull citizens into thinking that the Maddie kidnappers and child porno makers are being stymied – whereas, in fact, the authorities hardly ever catch the latter.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 7:03 pm
Work Choices scaremongerer-in-chief Julia Gillard “today backed Mr Garrett, describing him as an excellent minister.”

Four workers dead = excellence.

These people are more out of touch than any first term government in living memory.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 7:18 pm
C.L.,
As one person noted a while back, ministers either resign immediately or they do not resign until there have been three or four pronouncements of “full support” for the minister from the Prime Minister. I think Garrett is on the third one.
He’s almost gone.

Andrew Reynolds

18 Feb 10 at 7:25 pm
He’s almost gone.
.
I think you’re out of date. You’re one of those old-fashioned fuddy duddies who think government is all about boring stuff like ‘writing laws’ and stuff. That’s out Daddy-O.
.
Kevvie’s the most TV savvy PM in history. He knows the medium is the massage man. He’s just given Channel Ten a nice massage. He knows that in this crazy po-mo world everything is actually a show and that in every show you need a duh-duh idiot for comedy relief.
.
So he’ll keep Lurch. That crazy Petey. Who will set fire to next.

Adrien

18 Feb 10 at 7:36 pm
DB wakes up the inmates with

Nothing more substantive to offer, rog? I thought not.

dover_beach

18 Feb 10 at 7:45 pm
JC, I’m against drink driving but I don’t want to ban roads.

Yes pedro. I agree. What exactly is your point?

JC

18 Feb 10 at 7:48 pm
What sort of dropkick thinks drug taking is in anyway analogous to some sick fucker getting his jollies watching kids being abused?

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 7:51 pm
What sort of dropkick thinks drug taking is in anyway analogous to some sick fucker getting his jollies watching kids being abused?

A dropkick that would actually think it is or thinks other people are suggesting it is.

That’s the problem with you, SDFC, your ability to understand even things that are directly presented to you and as clear as shit on your shoe presents difficulties.

How’s the drug war working out by the way? Remind me again?

Not suggesting that drugs and child porn are directly analogous but only in the pathetic attempts at cutting demand.

Please try and stop the moral aggrandizement anchored to faulty comprehension, as it really makes you look pathetic.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 8:07 pm
SFDC:

What is it with lefties like you?

I know

You spend a great deal of time at intellectual toilets like the usual leftie haunts, gain a head of steam as a result of all the back slapping agreement that goes on in those echo chambers of un-reason and then you think you are capable of running a reasoned argument at right wing sites.

Consequently you go off all hurt and upset and then repeat the same routine the follwing day having forgetten what’s happened or running agrudge for being made to look like a pratt.

You need to stop this circle of hell and the emotional highs and lows may be too hard to take.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 8:13 pm
JC

Look up a few comments to what CL said.

JC gets it wrong again, but will probably keep ploughing on anyway.

I’ll give you a tip. Pathetic is defending the rights of losers who like wank watching kids being abused.

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 8:23 pm
I’ll just re-post my comment so our visiting Conroy Boy can have another crack at understanding it.

sdfc’s argument making the following morally identical is actually quite sick: some bozo jerking off to a picture of an eight year old is the same as someone kidnapping, raping and prostituting out to others that same eight year old. Anyone who believes that is deranged. The reason the authorities make such PR hey about their parade of bozo consumers is to placate an understandably concerned public and lull citizens into thinking that the Maddie kidnappers and child porno makers are being stymied – whereas, in fact, the authorities hardly ever catch the latter.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 8:26 pm
sdfc’s argument making the following morally identical is actually quite sick

Niether sdfc nor anybody else made that argument. Instead, the argument has been that consumers are, at the very least, complicit in the crimes of the outright abusers.

It’s true that the authorities milk some PR out of catching the consumers, but I suspect this is more about the authorities’ penchant for self-aggrandisement.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 8:34 pm
You misinterpret what is being said again, SDFC and to be honest your comment about defending rights of others borders on faulty terrain.

There are plenty of things I/we find disturbing about people. I find it disturbing for instance that there are people who think Hitler was a pretty good guy. There are people who think black people aren’t equal human beings and publish their crap.

I find it worse to prevent these loons from acting on their lunatic behavior than to allow them to do what they want despite the fact I find in reprehensible.

Those oafs that view this ugly stuff for free and have no direct relationship with the suppliers shouldn’t be legally sanctioned.

Furthermore perhaps one of you that thinks there is a nexus between this group (free viewers) would care to explain what exactly would be the motivation of the suppliers to conduct their activities free of charge and therefore not earning any money for it.

I think I’ve been careful to segregate those that pay for it and those that don’t, which are two entirely different groups as far as I’m concerned. The former has a direct relationship while the latter doesn’t.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 8:36 pm
You misinterpret what is being said again, SDFC and to be honest your comment about defending rights of others borders on faulty terrain.

There are plenty of things I/we find disturbing about people. I find it disturbing for instance that there are people who think Hitler was a pretty good guy. There are people who think black people aren’t equal human beings and publish their crap.

I find it worse to prevent these loons from acting on their lunatic behavior than to allow them to do what they want despite the fact I find in reprehensible.

Those oafs that view this ugly stuff for free and have no direct relationship with the suppliers shouldn’t be legally sanctioned.

Furthermore perhaps one of you that thinks there is a nexus between this group (free viewers) would care to explain what exactly would be the motivation of the suppliers to conduct their activities free of charge and therefore not earning any money for it.

I think I’ve been careful to segregate those that pay for it and those that don’t, which are two entirely different groups as far as I’m concerned. The former has a direct relationship while the latter doesn’t…..

JC

18 Feb 10 at 8:36 pm
THR

You’ll have to give us a bit more to back up this claim:

at the very least, complicit in the crimes of the outright abusers.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 8:38 pm
Peter, if you’re paying money to those who are the outright abusers, you’re arguably incentivising their behaviour. Their ‘service’ would presumably disappear if there were no demand for it.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 8:40 pm
THR:

Strictly speaking you can’t actually be “consuming” this stuff if you’re not paying for it.

I think it is important to disguise the buyers: the group that ought legally sanctioned and those that float around the web and obtain it for free.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 8:41 pm
Pedro,
I’m okay with it being a crime, using the “recieving stolen goods” analogy. If you’re knowingly receiving and benefiting from the product of crime, that’s also a crime. I’m not okay with the hysterical equating of these sick losers to actual child abusers, because, factually they aren’t.
Also, I’m totally not okay with the government filtering such information from the net. That’s not only ridiculous, it’s suffocatingly nanny-state. If people want to break the law, let them break the law, then bust down their front door at dawn and lock them up! Don’t kind of surround them in a cotton-wool-world to protect them from themselves, and the rest of us too.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 8:42 pm
oops wrong spell check choice…

important to distinguish… Not disguise… Lol.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 8:42 pm
Niether sdfc nor anybody else made that argument.
.
Since when did that have anything to do with it?

Adrien

18 Feb 10 at 8:43 pm
THR

We covered the ‘market’ aspects above. The criminality of the people who produce kiddie-porn goes far beyond economics – kidnapping, assault, rape…

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 8:44 pm
The criminality of the people who produce kiddie-porn goes far beyond economics – kidnapping, assault, rape…

Indeed. And having over money to the criminals for the purpose of viewing the crime is a kind of complicity with the crime itself.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 8:46 pm
daddy dave

Another pro-criminalization argument could be the legal obligation to report criminal activity. So, if you come across this stuff, and instead of calling the police, sit at home getting off the stuff, clearly you are not reporting it to the police….

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 8:47 pm
Indeed. And having over money to the criminals for the purpose of viewing the crime is a kind of complicity with the crime itself.

Yes, that’s true.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 8:49 pm
also this from Andy McCarthy at National Review:

So the law of unintended consequences takes hold: We enact monstrous penalties because we want to discourage the abuse of children, but then we find that a lot of the defendants are almost children themselves — man-children who are not going to do well in prison, to put it mildly (the average computer-geek Internet porn defendant is nowhere near as hard as a street-gang kid). Yet, they’d be looking at no less than ten years in the slammer. These, thus, became the worst cases I’ve even been involved in — cases where you’d have to assess very carefully how many images there were and how truly awful they were because you’d be balancing against that assessment whether to send a virtual kid to prison for a longer stretch than Junior Gotti got for Gambino Family hi-jinks in 1999 (about six years). There was no middle ground: Either dismiss the case or get ten years in jail.

I came away with two thoughts. First, the really awful offenders in this area are the people who produce these images and initially get them into the stream of commerce. Judges can be trusted to throw the book at those guys. To impose hefty mandatory minimums on downstream distributors who are trading images is unnecessary, and it ends up meaning you can’t do something sensible — like prosecute the man-children (frequently first-offenders) with the understanding that they are going to get reasonable sentences, deferred prosecution arrangements, etc.
Second, after dealing with a raft of child-porn cases, I was more than ready to return to the relative emotional calm of dealing with terrorists.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 8:49 pm
KR:”Penny, we need a diversion”

PW:”No problem, Rev. Kev”

Quick, the beaches are disappearing!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/penny-wong-warns-of-climate-change-threat-to-bondi-beach-and-the-sunshine-coast/story-e6frg6xf-1225831860523

Infidel Tiger

18 Feb 10 at 8:50 pm
Adrien, if you have one example of me not engaging directly with what someone is actually saying, please cite it or bugger off. A distinction has been made between creep consumers of child porn (WHO NO-ONE IS DEFENDING) and the actual kidnappers and rapists and photographers of child sex. This has been twisted by sdfc into JC, Jason and others ‘defending’ or somehow sympathising with the consumers.

I’d be interested to know what sdfc thought of the Henson affair and the people who spend thousands of dollars to hang a picture of a sexually posed 12 year-old on their North Shore walls. I’m guessing he defended the “artist.”

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 8:52 pm
THR

As I said, we covered the economics above, and the ‘handing over the money’ argument doesn’t really apply to this world that much.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 8:53 pm
Dave, there are several different issues here. The reason Conroy is getting away with his idiotic filter is that he (and his supporters) have been allowed to successfully conflate a whole bunch of different things, and pretend that censorship is the answer.

Andy McCarthy obviously isn’t talking about Australia. There are no ‘monstrous penalties’ for those who use child porn – it’s either a non-custodial sentence, or a few months in a minimum security prison that’s more or less like a high school retreat. I’m not saying we should lock these guys up for life, but the penalties are not harsh.

One of the reasons the penalties are not harsh is that demonisation of offenders is considered part of the penalty itself. Using a range of colourful epithets may help to reaffirm one’s moral decency, but it does nothing to solve the problem.

Finally, the mythical ‘help’ that some commenters suggest for these ‘sick’ people is essentially non-existent in Australia, with the exception of some small programs for those who’ve already been convicted of something, and a handful of private clinicians who will treat those who can pay.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 8:55 pm
Also, from people I know who work in prisons, the stuff that’s used as masturbation fodder by sex offenders is very often stuff that would not strike anybody as ‘pornography’, since it could be anything from clothing catalogues to children’s books.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 8:57 pm
Oh no, Tiger, the beaches are disappearing? Isn’t it just remarkable how Anthropomorphic Global Warming knows exactly where all the “icons” are and takes especial delight in ruining them to spite Our Children and Our Children’s Children?

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 8:59 pm
Meanwhile, the teabaggers are looking increasingly unhinged:

But amid talk about fiscal conservatism and the “subversive threat” of the green movement, there was also a strong undercurrent of a cultural bigotry which previously had been kept to the margins of the tea party phenomenon.

Tom Tancredo, a former Republican congressman from Denver in Colorado who ran for president in 2008, devoted most of his opening speech on Thursday night to illegal immigration. He said the fabric of US society had been eroded by the “cult of multiculturalism”, “Islamification”, and large numbers of immigrants who did not want to be Americans.

In his most incendiary comment, he invoked the segregationist methods of the southern states, saying that Obama had been elected because “we do not have a civics, literacy test before people can vote in this country”. Southern segregationist states used to prevent black people having the vote by setting them restrictively difficult qualification tests, a historical allusion lost on few of the delegates present.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/05/tea-party-united-states

THR

18 Feb 10 at 8:59 pm
Andy McCarthy obviously isn’t talking about Australia.
.
No I realise that. I just thought everyone else might find it interesting. I certainly did.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 8:59 pm
Meanwhile, the teabaggers are looking increasingly unhinged:
The media ignored the Tea Parties for a year, until Scott Brown won Massachussetts. Now they’re paying attention and doing their best to paint them as extremist, bigoted rabble.
I have no trust in the Guardian to report on the Tea Parties objectively.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 9:03 pm
THR

I think pretty much every nation on earth has now dumped ‘the cult of multiculturalism’ as a misguided experiment.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 9:03 pm
If The Guardian wishes to lecture the rest of us on the delights of multiculturalism and Islam, they clearly do not get out much in their own country.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 9:05 pm
Now they’re paying attention and doing their best to paint them as extremist, bigoted rabble.

Are you suggesting they’re not extremist, bigoted rabble?

THR

18 Feb 10 at 9:05 pm
God The Guardian has become such garbage. It is just like a first year Sociology tute at a former poly. Just read that link of THR’s. That’s not journalism. It is just one self-affirming mindless unsubstantiated ad hominem after another. A page for a particular – badly-educated – generation to bash out all its ill-informed talking points, which flaunt its own social bigotry and ignorance. Why can’t these journalists actually report the news anymore?

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 9:13 pm
Yes, THR, I’m suggesting exactly that.
Being an Instapundit reader, I’ve been following the whole thing from the beginning.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 9:19 pm
Well what do you expect from THR?

Abu Chowdah

18 Feb 10 at 9:19 pm
JC and CL get themselves tied up in knots defendng perverts’ rights to watch kids being abused. Says it all really.

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 9:20 pm
The politician with the longest-standing association with a bigoted, racist rabble is Barack Obama.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 9:21 pm
sdfc

The only “right” here is the “right” against arbitrary arrest and detention. Beyond that, I don’t think anybody has expressed anything other than contempt and/or disgust for such viewing.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 9:22 pm
JC and CL get themselves tied up in knots defendng perverts’ rights to watch kids being abused. Says it all really
That’s just trolling, sdfc. You’re trying to wind people up to get a reaction. The very definition of trolling.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 9:23 pm
sdfc = fail

Abu Chowdah

18 Feb 10 at 9:25 pm
Speaking extremist rabble, where are the anti-war crowd these days?

tal

18 Feb 10 at 9:26 pm
People who protest against trillion dollar debt, ever expanding government and political corruption are now a bigoted, extremist, rabble.

I’ll cop that, if it’s the criteria.

Infidel Tiger

18 Feb 10 at 9:28 pm
People who protest against trillion dollar debt, ever expanding government and political corruption are now a bigoted, extremist, rabble.

I’ll cop that, if it’s the criteria.

And people who engage in anti-black race-baiting in the South, and who complain of the ‘Islamification’ of the US?

THR

18 Feb 10 at 9:30 pm
No SDFC,

I am not saying that at all and if you any sort of real man instead of a pussy whipped leftie you wouldn’t be trying to characterize what I said so dishonestly.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 9:30 pm
Conroy Boy sdfc’s argument is that some loser jerking off to a picture of an eight year old is the same as someone kidnapping, raping, prostituting out to others and perhaps killing that same eight year old. Anyone who believes that is mentally deranged. I bet you any money sdfc regards Robert Henson as an “artist” and has never once called for his consumers to be arrested.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 9:35 pm
“…anti-black race-baiting…”

Does describing the President as just like Jesse Jackson, as a saleably “light-skinned negro” or “clean and articulate” make Bill Clinton, Harry Reid and Joe Biden tea-baggers?

Hey I know, let’s ask Robert Byrd.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 9:38 pm
THR

The fact that you would even consider equating in importance the very dire straits of the US economic and political systems, with some subjective views on multiculturalism is a real worry.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 9:40 pm
For how much longer is the far-Left going to deny economics in favor of obsessing about race, and running from non-existent shadows of ‘fascism’?

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 9:42 pm
The fact that you would even consider equating in importance the very dire straits of the US economic and political systems, with some subjective views on multiculturalism is a real worry.

You are free to worry about whatever you choose.

At a time when large parts of the US are hurting economically, it troubles me that resentment, rather than being directed at the source of the problem, is displaced onto Muslims, immigrants, and so forth. The usual targets for fascists, in other words.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 9:42 pm
I don’t judge the 99% by the actions of the 1%. Or as is more likely with The Tea Party, the 99.99% by the actions of the 0.01%.

THR, you do realise that your politics would make you a dangerous extremist in the yes of most Australians?

Infidel Tiger

18 Feb 10 at 9:46 pm
anti-black race-baiting
that sounds like a verbal. Saying, effectively, it’s a pity there are so many stupid people who can vote because look who’s president… that’s not race baiting, but then the Guardian goes, “oooh once upon a time the blacks didn’t get educated, so maybe he was referring to today’s blacks (even though that wouldnt make any sense because today’s blacks are educated).”
Basically, if a conservative white southerner says anything that can be misconstrued as race-baiting, it’s misconstrued as race-baiting.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 9:48 pm
……it troubles me that resentment, rather than being directed at the source of the problem, is displaced onto Muslims, immigrants, and so forth. The usual targets for fascists, in other words.

Or perhaps it’s just people being people, THR.

They really aren’t behaving any different to other people in not wanting foreigners in times of economic stress like Europeans or say Indonesians killing Chinese in the 60′s or Indian Muslims and Hindus killing each to name a few.

Americans speaking out against illegal immigration doesn’t make them fascists.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 9:51 pm
Basically, if a conservative white southerner says anything that can be misconstrued as race-baiting, it’s misconstrued as race-baiting.

It seemed like a fairly clear and direct allusion as the Guardian told it.

And, bear in mind, this is in the context of far-right lunatics gaining traction around the world. See the BNP, for instance.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 9:52 pm
For any Democrat to make criticisms of racism is laughably beneath contempt in any case. Historically, it is the most racist political party outside of South Africa and the only US political party to ever have a terrorist wing. To this day, its third-in-line to the President is a former Exalted Cyclops of the Ku Klux Klan.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 9:52 pm
JC

http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/02/13/open-forum-february-13-2010/comment-page-18/#comment-15654

I believe they called her Cherry 2000. Melanie Griffiths who played the bounty hunter in the same movie but also in the early 1980s was much better. Maybe that’s why I like Bonfire of the Vanities.

I believe SFDC is right but being obfuscatory about the economics of abuse. Demented as it may be, writing about sick fantasies shouldn’t be a crime. Better they put pen to paper than actually abuse a kid. If you can say it is a sign that abuse will occur you may have case to justify the law as is.

SFDC should also stop trying to score points because he got his nose bled over Keynes.

That is how Homer’s Nazi economics started.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 9:53 pm
THR

The usual targets for fascists, in other words.

Well, saying usual is a bit of a stretch how short-lived, marginalized, and like soooo early last century ‘fascism’ was.

But even then, from my History studies, the overwhelming target was communists, which is what ‘fascism’ always was; a response to Communist incursions.

Peter Patton

18 Feb 10 at 9:54 pm
Tea paryt supporters are a mixed bag to pun an obvious pun.

However most agree and would vote to support far less government intrusion, to find ways to eliminate the deficit and find the idea of this stimulus spending to be abominable.

Fact is that a good % of these very people voted for obama and will not vote for him again strongly suggesting that he’s a one-termer and it will be a failed presidency.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 9:55 pm
They really aren’t behaving any different to other people in not wanting foreigners in times of economic stress like Europeans or say Indonesians killing Chinese in the 60’s or Indian Muslims and Hindus killing each to name a few.

I beg to differ JC. They are behaving completely different to those examples you used. Crime is still trending downward in the US and if any can point me to an upsurge in racialy motivated crimes, I’d be amazed.

Infidel Tiger

18 Feb 10 at 9:56 pm
“And people who engage in anti-black race-baiting in the South, and who complain of the ‘Islamification’ of the US?”

Wow. So that’s why they chose the name “tea parties”. To emulate protest over George II’s policy on Muslim immigration in Spainish and French Florida and Lousiana.

Damn tea drinking mussies!

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 9:56 pm
That’s very funny, SRL.

Re the other thing….
look I don’t have anything against SDFC, as most of the time, although we disagree and get worked up, we usually try again the following day despite it ending the same way . Squabbling again.

However it’s unfair and really wrong to say that I suddenly support what these sick fucks are doing. I don’t. I just don’t think they should go to jail if they are not peddling in the rancid stuff and exchanging money. No matter how sick their thoughts are I believe legal sanctions borders on thought crime and this is wrong.

I know this stuff gets us all very emotional and it’s usually never best to bring it up.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 10:02 pm
Abortion.

GO!!!

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 10:05 pm
and if any can point me to an upsurge in racialy motivated crimes, I’d be amazed.

Well Hasan for one killing 12 and injuring around 30 people. Attacks by illegals on American citizens is also running at a pretty high rate.

We always think of the way other unfortunately.

However your point is a relevant though all the same. Americans are not really giving Muslims and illegals much of a hard time and the tensions are incomparable to what’s happening in Europe.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 10:09 pm
No, no bloody abortion talk…. or catholic hour.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 10:10 pm
It seemed like a fairly clear and direct allusion as the Guardian told it.
I don’t buy it.
When a journalist gives you a quote, and then has to explain why the quote is racist, it’s probably not racist. Especially when the quote is from a white conservative and the journalist is from the Guardian.

daddy dave

18 Feb 10 at 10:11 pm
“SFDC should also stop trying to score points because he got his nose bled over Keynes.”

When?

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 10:11 pm
Sorry that question was for SRL. I’ve got a bad habit of sometimes not identifying who I’m replying to to.

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 10:13 pm
What did the conservative say anyway, that Obama was only a light-skinned negro or something?

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 10:14 pm
Like when your defence of the Keynesian policy perspective was brought down to the level of anecdote.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 10:14 pm
When?

Whenever you bring it up. You get done in a like dinner.

I seriously have no idea why you support that junk.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 10:15 pm
FWIW, today’s Crikey has a related article with some perspectives from the police child exploitation people.

THR

18 Feb 10 at 10:17 pm
That’s just the same old unsubstantiated rhetoric JC.

As I have said before, I find it amazing that you can call it junk considering we have just gone through(and I don’t think we’re home and hosed yet) a text book Keynesian financial crisis.

I have outlined on numerous occasions how the US stimulus package has supported demand and that the size of the current deficits are mainly the result of the poor state of the US budget coming into the crisis.

I have also outlined how the policy of doing nothing in the 1930′s can only be described as a massive failure.

What do I get in response? Nothing.

I’ve got work to do and won’t be back until tomorrow (drink and smoke Friday, so you and SRL have got 24 hours to put together a coherent argument.

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 10:40 pm
I’ll rely on empirics that crowding out exists, you can rely on anecdotes that it doesn’t. Please think how this influences the entire Keynesian and Neo Keynesian framework.

“I have also outlined how the policy of doing nothing in the 1930’s can only be described as a massive failure.”

It also isn’t true. I’ll wait 24 hours for you to prove your store bought assumption.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 10:44 pm
Level of anecdote SRL? Unless you can point to an example where I have relied on anecdote I’m going to have to assume you mean the official data? Sorry if it’s inconvenient for you but it’s what we have to use in the workforce.

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 10:46 pm
Okay SRL last comment for tonight. Why don’t you point me to the huge budget deficits of the early 1930′s that would suggest massive government stimulus. Or would that be just anecdote in your world? That’s it good night.

sdfc

18 Feb 10 at 10:49 pm
sfdc,

You told me that Keynes was ok because my concerns about the relevant models being unstable due to crowding out were nonsense since you didn’t believe that loanable funds became more scarce from budgetary pressures etc.

But wait – you’re seriously going to push the idea that Hoover had a laissez faire policy, given what he actually did, the election platform of Roosevelt, the resignation of Hoover’s Treasury Secretary, Mellon?

Fine by me, should be entertaining.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 10:53 pm
This is hilarious:

“…the current deficits are mainly the result of the poor state of the US budget coming into the crisis…”

No, they’re the result of a president who has wilfully tripled the deficit in a year for ideological reasons. Obama’s “stimulus” has been a massive failure.

C.L.

18 Feb 10 at 10:58 pm
Don’t respond right away sfdc, I’ll give you time to consider this:

In your “real world” of anecdotes, do supply and demand models reveal that price rises are caused by things other than outward shifts in demand or inward shifts of supply? No? Then how does an increase in G, which you’ve documented to decrease RGDI increase the demand for loanable funds? Also consider how our exports have fallen.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 10:58 pm
Greg Hunt, the opposition environment spokesman, who after the election will take over from the environment minsters0 is a feisty dude. He’s very likable, has a commanding knowledge of his portfolio and really knew how to handle Fat Tony Jones. He really is very impressive and think will go far.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 11:02 pm
Homer sez:

““The major reason we had such a high per capita income was the LOW population. Ian McFarlane talked about this in his Boyer lectures.””

1. Homer should be unemployed.

2. MacFarlane should sue for defamation.

3. I’ve seen half arsed management undergrads grasp the basis of macroeconomics, trade economics and developmental economics (capital intensity) better than Homer. He insists to be an authority on economics.

Semi Regular Libertarian

18 Feb 10 at 11:17 pm
SRL:

I happily attend his (Debbie’s) handing back ceremony. In fact I’m sure he’d have a lot of attendees there who would cheer as he gives it back.

JC

18 Feb 10 at 11:24 pm
Rafe:

The workers were doing well in Australia circa 1900. Visitors were impressed by the fact that ordinary folk could afford to regularly eat meat. We had possibly the highest per capita income in the world but that was before the “Austrlian Settlement” between the labour movement and others, resulting in the White Australia Policy, tariff protection and central wage fixing. And a downward trend in our relative economic performance.

Homer:

The major reason we had such a high per capita income was the LOW population. Ian McFarlane talked about this in his Boyer lectures. It was always going to fall as population increased.

————————-

I’ve found the transcript of McFarlane’s Boyer lecture. He said the exact opposite of what Homer attributed to him. He did not say economic growth dropped with population growth but, rather, that the only reason it was as high as it was is attributable to our unusually high rate of population growth.

I realise, looking back at what I have said, that I could be accused of over-glamourising the 1950s and 1960s. To remedy this impression, I want to bring up two other considerations.

First, Australia did not stand out at this time in comparison with other countries. While in absolute terms our performance was good, we did not grow as fast as the OECD average. In the era before the Golden Age, that is the 80 years prior to 1950, our average growth rate of 2.9% exceeded the OECD average of 2.3%, but in the period from 1950 to 1973, we slightly underperformed, growing at an average of 4.7% compared with the OECD average of 4.9%. A close examination shows that the main reason we got so close to the OECD average was that our population and work force grew much faster than in other countries. This was of course the period of the great post war immigration programs. If we take out the effects of our faster population growth by looking at the growth in GDP per capita, the underperformance by Australia is more apparent. In the 1950s GDP per capita in Australia rose by 1.7% per annum compared with 3.3% in the OECD area. In the 1960s we did better, with GDP per capita rising by 3.2% per annum, but still a little lower than the 3.9% for the OECD area.

Homer, this is truly appalling evidence doctoring and verballing – even by your standards.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 12:23 am
Great effort Deb. Another fine mess you’ve got yourself into. Every well known person this the world now is living in fear that Debbie will “quote” them and possibly ruin their reputation.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 12:37 am
We’ll have to forgive him. English is obviously a distant language for Homer and it’s probably a translation error.

Infidel Tiger

19 Feb 10 at 1:01 am
I’ll ask the question again: Is Rudd a goner?

THE nation’s industrial umpire has ruled that a long-term employee who was legitimately sacked for repeated safety breaches must be reinstated and paid compensation because of his poor education and poor job prospects.

In the latest ruling to concern business, Fair Work Australia found the worker had engaged in “relatively serious misconduct”, but ruled the sacking harsh due to his length of service and the fact he was a poorly educated middle-aged family man.

The Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry said the ruling sent the wrong message, and “really exposes employers to double jeopardy”.

“Here we have an employee repeatedly failing to observe health safety obligations, a valid reason for dismissal found to have existed, but the company still found to have acted unlawfully,” said the chamber’s workplace policy director, David Gregory.

“It makes it very difficult for employers to try and work their way through this maze of what seem to be competing obligations contained in different pieces of legislation.

Fabulous labor laws. You fire a guy for flagrantly dissing safety regulations to avoid potential problems down the road and you are told to rehire him and not only that required to pay comp for the firing.

What a fabulous state of affairs this has now become.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/bosses-rapped-for-valid-sacking/story-e6frg6n6-1225831970896

JC

19 Feb 10 at 1:07 am
In IR, it essentially means that Rudd has suspended the rule of law. It also demonstrates – along with Garrettgate – that workplace health and safety are a joke to this government. If that galoot gets somebody killed, the union movement will shamelessly go after the employer.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 1:31 am
JC,

This video is no longer available but earlier today I saw a video of Rudd giving a press release. Seriously dude, he looked washed out and lacklustre. This news items reports on it

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/pm-rattled-in-psychological-battle-20100217-odx2.html

Rudd has been a bit silly. He has a heart condition, he is not the healthiest lad in the land, but even on his holidays he wrote those stupid essays. The man has been going at full pelt and really needs to rest a while but his ministers are now giving him headaches. At present it is still long odds for a coalition win but I think most people, especially myself, are surprised at how effective Abbott has been. If I am any example, I will not be voting labor, I’ll probably vote for humphreys again if he runs on the Gold Coast senate seat I’m in and either vote independent or liberal in the house.

What really annoys me though is that both Conroy and Garrett should be sacked. Rudd talked a lot about making tough decisions but shits himself when the going gets tough.

Oh and yes, just in case anyone has forgotten, Swan or his office did directly contact that mate of Rudd’s cf emailgate. So Swan should have gone long ago.

“There is no distinct criminal class – except Congress.”

Suppose I were an idiot and a member of Congress … but I repeat myself.

Mark Twain.

John H.

19 Feb 10 at 1:37 am
I’m not saying this as partisan (which I am of course) but in this respect i am trying to be genuinely curious as I’m at a loss as to understand what the fuck these trogs have done in IR. If you can’t fire a person because s/he repeatedly breaks works safety regulations a number of times and it appears from the piece that this stuff was beyond him, what can you fire someone for?

What have they done? Lord oh lord.

It looks like Rudd and Gillard for that matter are completely out of their depth in terms of government.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 1:40 am
Actually the stuff about Rudd’s health doesn’t give me any pleasure at all, John. In the final count of the cut and thrust of things I don’t really want to see the guy’s health become jeopardized and I mean that in the most sincere way possible.

I don’t think he’s a bad man. I think he’s out of his depth and doing things to cover it up.

I hope for his own sake and his family he doesn’t take this job too seriously and if it’s beyond him health wise he gets out. Just leaves as life and family are all that really count.

By the looks of things he has a wonderful looking family and that’s really all that counts.

It’s sad in a way that he doesn’t seem to have a decent group of senior heads around him to help and advise.

The worrying thing for him is that this is only going to get harder as the chips come in from previously made bad decisions. IF it’s a question of his health he should just leave. They don’t need the money.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 1:48 am
Michelle Grattan is nevertheless shamelessly dishonest in her penultimate par:

The Opposition Leader is taking risks. He went over the top in essentially laying the blame on Garrett personally for the deaths associated with the ceiling insulation program. Yesterday he had to take a step back from suggesting the Government appeared to have bribed the TV stations. We have yet to see whether he can manage his crazy brave venture into industrial relations.

It isn’t in the least “over the top” to link Garrett to those deaths. He was warned 19 f—ing times. Nor is talk of an election year “bribe” anything unusual or OTT in Australian political discourse.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 1:50 am
One other thing, John.

Western electorates are going to be amazingly volatile over the next 20 years or so, i reckon.

I’m not saying this is going to happen but it wouldn’t surprise me if we see a series of one term governments starting soon. Rudd and Abbott could both be one termers and it wouldn’t shock me in the least.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 1:50 am
You gotta look where you’re freaking going even when looking pretty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv2VIvZGMrk&feature=player_embedded#

JC

19 Feb 10 at 2:26 am
Stupid place to put a hole

tal

19 Feb 10 at 2:32 am
JC,

I’m only speculating re the health thing with Rudd but anyone who has had major heart surgery needs to be careful. Rudd is a workaholic and some say he only sleeps 3 hours a night, which is like really dumb because that induces inflammation throughout the whole body. It will damage him. People think it is heroic to go with little sleep and we all go through periods in our lives when we sleep little. But as a lifestyle, particularly as we age, it is stupid. It can seriously impair judgment, accelerate brain aging, and induce cardiac problems.

The stress issue is particularly relevant. This just popped up tonight:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100217224231.htm

Of course none us wish Rudd ill. But Rudd, like most so many people, appears to have built his identity around his achievements so he will be very conflicted about giving it all up. I’m lucky in that I don’t give a flying fuck about concepts like identity because these are so bloody illusory anyway. I’ve had a good life and in these days I’m quite happy to cruise along with a Buddhist like attitude to life. I still like to achieve things though. For example, I like giving you lot a good flogging now and then, and I don’t mind coping it in return. One thing I really appreciate about many people on this forum is that people don’t hold grudges. As I was told by 3 people just tonight: you’re very forthright John. Yeah, so fucking what!?

Yes, we are in a period of Big Change. It is a very good time for people like libertarians to take a much more aggressive role in putting forth their ideas.

John H.

19 Feb 10 at 2:35 am
wow, man flies plane into IRS building

http://www.smh.com.au/world/take-my-pound-of-flesh-and-sleep-well-furious-engineer-flies-plane-into-tax-office-20100219-ojf2.html?autostart=1

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 8:49 am
This seems to out there to be true:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7266059/School-spied-on-pupils-at-home-through-webcams.html

AJ

19 Feb 10 at 10:06 am
this sent a chill down my spine

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/how-ought-greece-handle-its-debts-what-is-the-real-meaning-of-those-old-europe-pledges-of-assistance/#comment-27476

I’ve also been Chairman of the safety committee. I’ve been to training in confined spaces training.

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 10:19 am
Bolt has an important column up on serial killer Philip Nitschke.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 11:48 am
Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe
Posting rages at IRS, claims, “I have had all I can stand”

Umm where have I see rages like this before especially against Goldman Sachs?

JC

19 Feb 10 at 12:28 pm
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0218102stack1.html

JC

19 Feb 10 at 12:28 pm
Man the US has suffered a lot of angry killer lately.

The Virginia tech guy, George Sodini, the guy who cut up that lab technician, Amy Bishop and now this.

Don’t worry JC, Birdy is too fat to fit into the cockpit of a plane.

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 12:38 pm
Bit of a difference, Jason. This guy attacked the IRS. Waging war against the government over tax is the foundation activity of the US republic.

Sinclair Davidson

19 Feb 10 at 12:41 pm
And tax is a necessary evil. No taxes, no civilisation, no military or cops or other things that everyone but nutty anarchists think should be provided by government.

Innocent people died in this act of domestic terrorism. You’re not seriously suggesting his actions are any less worthy of condemnation than that of the other nuts.

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 12:43 pm
No I’m not suggesting that the deaths of innocent people is ever acceptable. I am suggesting that the US government is in an interesting place when it’s own tax collecting agency is targeted given the US government itself is a consequence the largest tax revolt in history.

On that note, I’m out of here untl tomorrow.

Sinclair Davidson

19 Feb 10 at 12:51 pm
nothing particularly interesting about it. The US isn’t an anarchy. whatever revolt it had in the past it still has to collect taxes

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 12:59 pm
I think he was genuinely hard done by but had a very confused belief set and went the totally wrong way to make his grievances known.

It’s not really a tax thing. It was that he felt his profession was singled out by the law. It could have been occupational licensing or something else.

Semi Regular Libertarian

19 Feb 10 at 1:10 pm
Noted wowser likes to get his freak on:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/sex-is-one-of-lifes-pleasures-says-abbott-20100219-ok1u.html

Breaking news: Rudd vows to ban it.

Infidel Tiger

19 Feb 10 at 1:12 pm
I guess the LP crew will have to go celibate now that Abbott has endorsed sex

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 1:17 pm
I’ve never had any experience with the IRS thank god, but i’ve heard some terrible, terrible horror stories.

If the IRS singles out a person they simply go after them and steam roll them to death. They break them financially if they can’t get them legally by filing egregious legal suits forcing people to spend enormous amounts to defend themselves which under the US legal system is impossible to recover.

I don’t understand how this loon could have done this, but the thing is that you never act like that and bring people to breaking point which seems to be what happened.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 1:18 pm
A low flat tax rate and no deductions would put the IRS out of business. Which is why it’ll never happen.

Infidel Tiger

19 Feb 10 at 1:22 pm
Oh no, I’m jut reading Stack’s manifesto. They seem to always have one (Bird!).

My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.

The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 1:28 pm
Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions.

That’s the first sign someone should have picked up about this loon. How the fuck do you site down with a group of other loons for tax code readings?

JC

19 Feb 10 at 1:32 pm
this is the second article in a week run by the Mises Institute which endorses 100% reserve banking. Does anyone know what Mises actually had to say about fractional reserve?

http://mises.org/daily/4102

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 1:36 pm
So the tax terrorist hates the Catholic Church?

Figures.

I wonder if lefties will play their usual guilt by association game and start condemning anti-Catholicism.

My guess is no, they won’t.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 1:36 pm
Smart diplomacy:

Obama meets Dalai Lama, makes him leave the White House from the side garbage exit.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 1:40 pm
Jason:

If I recall, I think Mises discussed the advantages of a pure gold standard and how periods when the world was on a gold standard presented with low inflation high growth.

I don’t know what he would say now but I’m sure he’d be horrified at what’s been going on especially with the shit the Fed has stuck in its balance sheet.

The Fed is now running a junk bond portfolio LOl.

No wonder Bird is enraged.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 1:44 pm
Hey jase, you’re talking to him. Can you please ask bird to remove me from moderation as the commie won’t let me on his site .

It’s pretty revealing that the only two sites I’m banned are Bird and Lambert’s…

It’s a Lambird ban.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 1:48 pm
They were trying to sneak him out CL we don’t want to upset the Chicoms

tal

19 Feb 10 at 1:49 pm
lardulous sides with Stack, endorsing domestic terror:

People have to live. If the IRS is ruining your life in this context, it may be time to act.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 2:07 pm
Jason,

It is quite clear when you read both 1. Fiduciary Media and 2. Indirect Esxchnage from Human Action, Mises supported a gold standard but made concessions to free banking. There is no support of 100% backing.

The 100% reserve crackpots bring up a mythical support of Freidman of the MRA. They should read Free to Choose. Freidman clearly backs austerity with an open mind to free banking – but not 100% reserve requirements which he saw as a snake oil panacea.

http://mises.org/humanaction/chap17sec12.asp

XVII. INDIRECT EXCHANGE: The Limitation on the Issuance of Fiduciary Media
XVII. INDIRECT EXCHANGE

12. The Limitation on the Issuance of Fiduciary Media

Mises has a sub section discussing free banking.

Now, Mises was from the banking school, which I think I would belong to. Basically: the market restricts the issuance of currency and reserve ratios. They also can adjust and act as shock absorbers.

Semi Regular Libertarian

19 Feb 10 at 2:28 pm
Perhaps this might assist him with his anger management issues JC:

http://poobah.tumblr.com/post/397650758/rectorooter

BirdLab

19 Feb 10 at 2:28 pm
Hey JC

Bird thinks the US govt bailed you out too. Next time you should shout us all drinks when you’re in Sydney

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 2:33 pm
I’m sure it would, Lab.

———–

SRL:

I think there have been some studies suggesting that the banking system ought to be capitalized at around 20-25% to be thought well protected from sudden and unexpected changes in asset prices.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 2:35 pm
thanks SRL

so it’s not an open and shut case since no one knows what Mises would have thought of fractional reserve in the absence of free banking and a gold standard

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 2:35 pm
http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/how-ought-greece-handle-its-debts-what-is-the-real-meaning-of-those-old-europe-pledges-of-assistance/#comment-27490

What is the difference. If the Feds and the treasury will bail out Cambria and Merril Lynch. And this fellow has to pay back that debt, with the IRS as the agent for this crime. If some people are allowed to steal, and others are victimised. Well what are you supposed to do?

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 2:36 pm
Yea I saw that Jase. The coward now takes pot shots without right of response.

He’s right of course, I was there at the NY Fed with Lloyd Blankfein demanding the Fed takes me out of bad my positions and bail me out.

Thankfully, Ben listened and made me part of the TARP, which I recently paid back.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 2:38 pm
Yes Jason. I am probably currying the flavour to my way of thinking. But I believe Mises infers backing a point of view like mine. The 100% backers are really stretching it to make out Mises wanted 100% reserve requirements.

JC: The New York competitive issue era saw gold backed currency with a reserve ratio around 40%. Maybe it had to be higher due to inferior technology back then.

Semi Regular Libertarian

19 Feb 10 at 2:41 pm
He seems to think I worked for Merrills. I never did although I must say their bonus pool was huge at times.
(that should get him angrified).

Bird’s PM, John Key worked there as global dept. head. I think Lardulous thinks that because I’ve mentioned I know John, or rather knew him, I must have worked at Merrill. It’s just another example of the fat twerp trying to put together a (compelling) convergent paradigm and falling on his fat, over-sized, lardulous backside as usual.’

JC

19 Feb 10 at 2:43 pm
SRL:

Yea I think it would be due to technological limitations. In those days you could actually go broke while being solvent. Numerous banks fell like that in the depression.

They had their reserves etc. like physical gold and bonds parked with a New York bank and they didn’t have enough time to physically make a transfer if they out west etc.

I really do think though that the current Tangible common equity ratios are extremely wafer thing…. even at the new level of around 7%.

It’s interesting how the market moved away from Tier 1 capital and moved to TCE during the crisis. Lehman’s was presenting it healthy tier 1 ratio in the week it collapsed making this a pretty much redundant ration when looking at solvency issues.

I can’t recall but I think it was the Economist that mentioned studies suggesting 20 to 25% would be safe. Governments of course won’t go there as it would mean less lending so they’re still trying to allow banks to run with small capital requirements but a lot more regulation. Of course they’ll fail.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 2:51 pm
jtfsoon

After Abbott’s latest ‘no sex, no tell’ media turn, I now think he is doing this deliberately to cultivate an atmosphere of civic discourse that the wowser, “offended” “Inappropriate Police” cannot win.

Peter Patton

19 Feb 10 at 2:55 pm
No kidding, but should Madoff be the only one serving 150 year jail sentence or almost every senior government official in every arm of government from Federal to local both here and the US.

Our state governments are also running unfunded liabilities.

How the fuck do you leave out material parts of future claims and allow recurrent spending to rise above long term sustainability projections.

Maddoff’s freaking jail should be full of government personnel that signed off on these bullshit accounts… including the auditors.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/18/news/economy/public_pension_gap/

How the fuck do we allow these people to get away with such bullshit?

JC

19 Feb 10 at 2:59 pm
right on cue

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/02/19/too-much-information-tony/

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 3:02 pm
My message to Rudd and Abbot:

I want to hear about your sex life as much as I want to be lectured to. Please STFU. Thanks.

Semi Regular Libertarian

19 Feb 10 at 3:03 pm
I think MarkB from LP thinks he’s been given the mantle of running Abbott Watch.

It’s a pretty useless exercise as not matter what markB from lP thinks or does, Abbott will be the new PM this year, so he’d better get used to it.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 3:07 pm
JC,

You seem to be begging for MASS SACKINGS! and the like.

Unfortunately, like how the US defaulted on it’s bonds in 1933, they simply have the power to do this.

I think there is a better idea than MASS SACKINGS! since they actually have the power to make this happen.

A worthy consideration for liberal policy – the following constitutional rule: “Parliament may not create or endorse a(n) Ponzi scheme (unfunded public liability).”

Semi Regular Libertarian

19 Feb 10 at 3:08 pm
Too much information, Tony? I’ll stay silent about a certain revelation of Mark’s that was waaaaaaaaaaaaay TMI.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 3:12 pm
No, I’m not endorsing mass sackings at all. I don’t think senior politicians at any level ought to be allowed to get away with leaving unfunded future liabilities out of their books and pretended it doesn’t exist.

It truly worrying what they get up to.

My analogy to Maddof is actually more than apt in the sense that they are straight lying about the accounts.

No private firm is allowed to post accounts without providing for future commitments the way these jokers do.

Mark, local governments in the US have under-provided by $1 trillion!

JC

19 Feb 10 at 3:13 pm
oops I meant SRL… sorry.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 3:14 pm
I want to hear about your sex life as much as I want to be lectured to. Please STFU. Thanks.
.
The media took an intense interest in Abbott’s opinions on sex. They did that when it suited them to paint him as a moralist. Well this is a brilliant counter-strategy.
Abbott: “Since you brought up the topic, let me just keep on talking and talking about it until you’re screaming for me to stop!”

daddy dave

19 Feb 10 at 3:15 pm
are you referring to something Mark said on LP years ago CL?

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 3:24 pm
There was an interesting comment about Abbott’s strategy in the Aus yesterday. It was that Abbott is using a type of blitzkrieg strategy on Rudd, quickly moving the topic on before Rudd can respond at length. It’s clever and appears to be working. Can you see Rudd trying to take up this issue? I agree with Daddy Dave, a brilliant strategy by Abbott.

John H.

19 Feb 10 at 3:25 pm
anyway don’t you love the irony of a thread started to complain about not wanting to hear more about a subject which by definition is about that subject

jtfsoon

19 Feb 10 at 3:26 pm
SRL

Where has Abbott “lectured” you on sex? What I am finding truly fascinating in how all this sex-talk is flushing out the true prudes and erotophobes.

Peter Patton

19 Feb 10 at 3:27 pm
Yes, Jason. It was a shocker!

Mark’s a good person, though.

No further analysis from me.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 3:33 pm
PP

I simply don’t care. It is not my preference to listen to an ugly group of people talk about sex. If I was a journalist, I’d leave Abbot alone by now.

Semi Regular Libertarian

19 Feb 10 at 3:34 pm
Adrien, if you have one example of me not engaging directly with what someone is actually saying, please cite it or bugger off.
.
I don;t have one example CL. Not one.
.
Maybe 10 000 by now but certainly not one.

Adrien

19 Feb 10 at 3:41 pm
None, in other words.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 3:42 pm
SRL

But that is the beauty of Abbott’s strategy. These silly journos can’t “leave him alone”.

Peter Patton

19 Feb 10 at 3:43 pm
Brendan Nelson they left alone. Abbott, they can’t resist.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 3:48 pm
A distinction has been made between creep consumers of child porn (WHO NO-ONE IS DEFENDING) and the actual kidnappers and rapists and photographers of child sex.
.
As it should.
.
This has been twisted by sdfc into JC, Jason and others ‘defending’ or somehow sympathising with the consumers.
.
Oh that’s terrible CL. So dishonest. So mean-spirited. So awful.
.
It’s like some time ago when I was trying to raise the issue about the Protestant Reformation being about the absolute dog’s breakfast of a really debauched brothel that was the Roman Church at the time and this guy just wouldn’t face it.
.
His argument was that Martin Luther was an Anti-Semite, therefore I was an Anti-Semite! I mean really! And he just couldn’t see that Luther’s views on Jews had nothing to do with the ~~Buy Permission To Commit Sin So I Can Build Beautiful Buildings And Stuff ‘Em Full of Scrummy Pictures Scam~~ mistakes made by the Church.
.
I’d be interested to know what sdfc thought of the Henson affair…
.
Well I thought it was a media ruckus precipitated by philistines and opportunists to raise the ire of the great ignorant unwashed Stimpy fat-arse’d pigs guts that we laughingly call a ctizenry.
.
And the people who spend thousands of dollars to hang a picture of a sexually posed 12 year-old on their North Shore walls.
.
There was no sexual pose. That’s why the authorities found no basis for prosecution. Here’s a hint. There’s this thing called ‘tradition’ and the Western tradition of Art features the study of the nude centrally: Men, Women and Children. Has done for thousands of years old bean. I wonder about people who assume that picture is pornography. I mean I don’t find it pornographic but they do? And I’m the one that’s sick. N’uk.
.
And now back to Tony Abbott’s ‘brilliant’ strategy.

Adrien

19 Feb 10 at 3:54 pm
So, stated simply, you have no examples but are just dragging up arguments you lost in the past.

Twelve year-olds cannot consent to pose naked for “artists” anymore than they consent to buggery with a film director.

But let’s not get bogged down in old arguments.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 3:59 pm
I remember that incident from waaaay back when CL.That was funny

tal

19 Feb 10 at 4:12 pm
SRL
Where were the huge deficits that validate your contention that Hoover was running a massive stimulus? I’ve give you a hint, there were none. Reagan ran as big or bigger deficits in a period of growth than Hoover did during a depression.

Crowding out will only become a problem once the economy starts growing again on a sustainable basis. US private sector credit has been shrinking. Crowding out suggests the government is competing with the private sector for funds and resources and there is no evidence of that. In fact declining government spending is set to weigh on growth from H2 2010 onward, I think we will see a double-dip recession in the second half of the year.

If you have any empirical evidence (as you say) that government borrowing and spending is crowding out the private sector please present it.

You keep going on about anecdote, what anecdotes have I ever used in this debate?

I’m not sure what you mean about a rise in G decreasing RGDI, you’re going to have to explain.

RGDI is the terms of trade adjusted real GDP, that’s not to be a smart-arse, but it is an unfamiliar term to some people, however I think it is a far better measure of what is happening to the Australian economy than real GDP.

As for loanable funds, the private sector is deleveraging while the government is leveraging up. Don’t forget no-one is forced to lend to the government. Inflation has fallen because of the decline in demand.

CL

Your hero Bush ran deficits through a period of robust growth, Keynesian theory says you run surpluses during these periods. The deficit in 2009 was 9.3% of GDP of which 7.3% was cyclical due to the deterioration in the economy, in other words much of the deficit is due to prior budget decisions.

SRL perhaps we should continue this on the new open thread. CL unless you have something to contribute to the debate don’t bother.

sdfc

19 Feb 10 at 7:30 pm
The deficit in 2009 was 9.3% of GDP of which 7.3% was cyclical due to the deterioration in the economy, in other words much of the deficit is due to prior budget decisions.

Bullshit. It was 13% and change.

Furthermore you causally leave the tripling of the deficit under Abamanation.

You lefties have a real fucking hide talking about Bush’s deficits when this clown is tripling the amount in terms of the damage Bush did over the comparable terms.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 7:34 pm
It’s like…. “Let me triple the previous clown’s deficit as a way of solving the problems of the previous clowns deficit which of course doesn’t mean I’m 3 times the clown”.

You guys are freaking cult members where your tribe can’t ever do wrong.

The difference of course is that the right is happy to shit kick a loser down the alley. Lefties like you simply aren’t able to do that. In fact ou lionize losers.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 7:38 pm
Actually the cyclical deficit was only 2% of GDP (read the wrong column), I guess I’m going to have to apologise to CL. I hate that.

sdfc

19 Feb 10 at 7:49 pm
sfdc

Moved to the current open thread.

Semi Regular Libertarian

19 Feb 10 at 8:06 pm
JC I would call someone who thinks the government should sit back and do nothing while real GDP is falling 4% and the central bank has the cash rate at almost zero as someone who is just plain out of touch with reality.

sdfc

19 Feb 10 at 8:43 pm
sdfc, Bush isn’t particularly my hero. He is yours, though, because you of course believe that TARP helped save the world. But your god, Obama, has tripled the deficit in a year. His Keynesian intervention has been an unmitigated disaster for the United States.

Apology accepted.

C.L.

19 Feb 10 at 8:48 pm
CL, you say the stimulus did nothing, my position is that if it stopped the unemployment rate going to 15% or beyond then it has had an impact. Now I don’t know this for sure, because that particular scenario didn’t play out, what we do know however is that it has boosted GDP growth. There is ample evidence the cash for clunkers scheme, first homebuyer tax credit and around $93B in tax cuts have all had an impact.

sdfc

19 Feb 10 at 10:02 pm
JC I would call someone who thinks the government should sit back and do nothing while real GDP is falling 4% and the central bank has the cash rate at almost zero as someone who is just plain out of touch with reality.

I presume you’re talking aboutt he US as you seem to morph Australia and the US as one in numerous conversations.

The “government” is actually doing something, SDFC only you think it isn’t. The stabilizers themselves are operating to expand the deficit in times of a recession. You called it the cyclical deficit earlier up-thread and I thing you pointed out that it went to over 7% of GDP. That’s not doing nothing SDFC. In historical terms that’s a pretty large fucking deficit.

No one as far as I can tell has ever advocated a deep cut in the cyclical deficit.

In previous deep recessions in the US in recent times deliberate fiscal spending has been moderate. IT was never of of this magnitude. Nearly of the heavy lifting has always been done on the monetary side.

The spend both here and the US has been an unmitigated disaster.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 10:17 pm
Now I don’t know this for sure, because that particular scenario didn’t play out, what we do know however is that it has boosted GDP growth.

It’s been a shocking waste of scare resources.

There is ample evidence the cash for clunkers scheme, first homebuyer tax credit and around $93B in tax cuts have all had an impact.

I don’t think anyone here has been unduly critical of such programs and they probably have brought forward expenditure in those areas. What people here are critical of are the direct spending and the dumping of cash in things like our equivalent of the toilet block programs where the money has been completely wasted.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 10:22 pm
You yourself have mentioned how the local school you kids go to was the receiver of stimulus money that was wasted on a duplicate gym or some such thing.

JC

19 Feb 10 at 10:24 pm
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Open Forum February 13, 2010

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