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	<title>Comments on: Beginning with Ayn Rand</title>
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	<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/</link>
	<description>Australia&#039;s leading libertarian and centre-right blog</description>
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		<title>By: THR</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23407</link>
		<dc:creator>THR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23407</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“The distinguishing characteristic of this top rank (apart from their purely literary genius) is their full commitment to the premise of volition in both of its fundamental areas: in regard to consciousness and to existence, in regard to man’s character and to his actions in the physical world. Maintaining a perfect integration of these two aspects, unmatched in the brilliant ingenuity of their plot structures, these writers are enormously concerned with man’s soul (i.e., his consciousness).”&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;ve not read Hugo, so I can&#039;t comment on him, but this is a shockingly bad interpretation of Dostoevsky, who was, metaphorically speaking, the cold sore portraitist par excellence. And &#039;volition&#039; never comes into it. Dostoevsky&#039;s great characters never know entirely why they act and think as they do. So many of the great characters suffer from a &#039;heightened consciousness&#039;, yet this latter never provides the escape from their hellish and labyrinthine interior worlds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>“The distinguishing characteristic of this top rank (apart from their purely literary genius) is their full commitment to the premise of volition in both of its fundamental areas: in regard to consciousness and to existence, in regard to man’s character and to his actions in the physical world. Maintaining a perfect integration of these two aspects, unmatched in the brilliant ingenuity of their plot structures, these writers are enormously concerned with man’s soul (i.e., his consciousness).”</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve not read Hugo, so I can&#8217;t comment on him, but this is a shockingly bad interpretation of Dostoevsky, who was, metaphorically speaking, the cold sore portraitist par excellence. And &#8216;volition&#8217; never comes into it. Dostoevsky&#8217;s great characters never know entirely why they act and think as they do. So many of the great characters suffer from a &#8216;heightened consciousness&#8217;, yet this latter never provides the escape from their hellish and labyrinthine interior worlds.</p>
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		<title>By: THR</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23404</link>
		<dc:creator>THR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23404</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How can you falsify speculations on the unconscious?&lt;/i&gt;

There are many ways that psychoanalysts have gone about building theories and testing them. Some use the mainstream methods of other psychologists. Some accrue evidence for or against particular hypotheses. Certainly, a number of ideas in psychoanalysis have been falsified (like the seduction theory) from within psychoanalysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>How can you falsify speculations on the unconscious?</i></p>
<p>There are many ways that psychoanalysts have gone about building theories and testing them. Some use the mainstream methods of other psychologists. Some accrue evidence for or against particular hypotheses. Certainly, a number of ideas in psychoanalysis have been falsified (like the seduction theory) from within psychoanalysis.</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23366</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23366</guid>
		<description>Rand is studied as a contrast to Hayek (who is treated as a major figure) in the Oxford jurisprudence course (part of the BCL). It was when taking this subject that I first encountered the fact of the very large number of Indian women who had read Rand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rand is studied as a contrast to Hayek (who is treated as a major figure) in the Oxford jurisprudence course (part of the BCL). It was when taking this subject that I first encountered the fact of the very large number of Indian women who had read Rand.</p>
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		<title>By: Sinclair Davidson</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23362</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinclair Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23362</guid>
		<description>Atlas Shrugged is taught is the economics and literature course at George Mason University in the US and in the early 90s was taught in the Industrial Relations subject at Wits University.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atlas Shrugged is taught is the economics and literature course at George Mason University in the US and in the early 90s was taught in the Industrial Relations subject at Wits University.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim R</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23359</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23359</guid>
		<description>Interesting reply THR. 
We obviously strongly disagree on the value of Rand, but I appreciate the Kant interpretation.  

Regarding your last paragraph, I doubt Rand did that regarding Dostoevsky.  She admired his technique and ability as a writer.  Ayn Rand states: &quot;Among novelists, the greatest are Victor Hugo and Dostoevsky....&quot; - The Romantic Manifesto.  
Continuing:
&quot;The distinguishing characteristic of this top rank (apart from their purely literary genius) is their full commitment to the premise of volition in both of its fundamental areas: in regard to consciousness and to existence, in regard to man’s character and to his actions in the physical world. Maintaining a perfect integration of these two aspects, unmatched in the brilliant ingenuity of their plot structures, these writers are enormously concerned with man’s soul (i.e., his consciousness).&quot;

Ayn Rand had particular views on the purpose of art.  She defined art as being a selective recreation of metaphysical value judgements from memory but she thought the purpose was to inspire and provide spiritual fuel.  Because like Aristotle she views the differentia of man to be his ability to reason.  This is man&#039;s nature and should lead to his flourishing.  So this led to her advocating art that glorifies reason and volition, she wanted to paint a picture of the ideal man.  
Dostoevsky was however quite malevolent in his story lines, so considering his skill and his acceptance of highly volitional characters, Ayn Rand would have particularly disliked him.  She disliked Edgar Alan Poe too.  Basically, she believed in a &quot;benevolent universe&quot; as she puts it.   

This example from Ayn Rand explains it well IMO:
&quot;If one saw, in real life, a beautiful woman wearing an exquisite evening gown, with a cold sore on her lips, the blemish would mean nothing but a minor affliction, and one would ignore it.  
But a painting of such a woman would be a corrupt, obscenely vicious attack on man, on beauty, on all values—and one would experience a feeling of immense disgust and indignation at the artist. (There are also those who would feel something like approval and who would belong to the same moral category as the artist.)

Why did the artist add the cold sore?  Rand would see this as mocking beauty per se.  A malevolent view of the world.  

Your last sentence is simply ad hominem.  Rand is not a mainstream philosopher.  She is studied in a handful of universities, but not many.  This may change though, many modern philosophers are not studied at length.  I&#039;m sometimes quite pleasantly surprised to discover some modern philosophers I&#039;ve never heard of with whom I share a great deal of common ground with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting reply THR.<br />
We obviously strongly disagree on the value of Rand, but I appreciate the Kant interpretation.  </p>
<p>Regarding your last paragraph, I doubt Rand did that regarding Dostoevsky.  She admired his technique and ability as a writer.  Ayn Rand states: &#8220;Among novelists, the greatest are Victor Hugo and Dostoevsky&#8230;.&#8221; &#8211; The Romantic Manifesto.<br />
Continuing:<br />
&#8220;The distinguishing characteristic of this top rank (apart from their purely literary genius) is their full commitment to the premise of volition in both of its fundamental areas: in regard to consciousness and to existence, in regard to man’s character and to his actions in the physical world. Maintaining a perfect integration of these two aspects, unmatched in the brilliant ingenuity of their plot structures, these writers are enormously concerned with man’s soul (i.e., his consciousness).&#8221;</p>
<p>Ayn Rand had particular views on the purpose of art.  She defined art as being a selective recreation of metaphysical value judgements from memory but she thought the purpose was to inspire and provide spiritual fuel.  Because like Aristotle she views the differentia of man to be his ability to reason.  This is man&#8217;s nature and should lead to his flourishing.  So this led to her advocating art that glorifies reason and volition, she wanted to paint a picture of the ideal man.<br />
Dostoevsky was however quite malevolent in his story lines, so considering his skill and his acceptance of highly volitional characters, Ayn Rand would have particularly disliked him.  She disliked Edgar Alan Poe too.  Basically, she believed in a &#8220;benevolent universe&#8221; as she puts it.   </p>
<p>This example from Ayn Rand explains it well IMO:<br />
&#8220;If one saw, in real life, a beautiful woman wearing an exquisite evening gown, with a cold sore on her lips, the blemish would mean nothing but a minor affliction, and one would ignore it.<br />
But a painting of such a woman would be a corrupt, obscenely vicious attack on man, on beauty, on all values—and one would experience a feeling of immense disgust and indignation at the artist. (There are also those who would feel something like approval and who would belong to the same moral category as the artist.)</p>
<p>Why did the artist add the cold sore?  Rand would see this as mocking beauty per se.  A malevolent view of the world.  </p>
<p>Your last sentence is simply ad hominem.  Rand is not a mainstream philosopher.  She is studied in a handful of universities, but not many.  This may change though, many modern philosophers are not studied at length.  I&#8217;m sometimes quite pleasantly surprised to discover some modern philosophers I&#8217;ve never heard of with whom I share a great deal of common ground with.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23355</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23355</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Popper was wrong on that&lt;/i&gt;
.
Was he? How can you falsify speculations on the unconscious?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Popper was wrong on that</i><br />
.<br />
Was he? How can you falsify speculations on the unconscious?</p>
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		<title>By: THR</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23330</link>
		<dc:creator>THR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23330</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;As I understand Kant thought the process of conception was by its nature distortionary.
I could be wrong but his noumenal/phenomenal distinction seems very similar to Plato’s world of the forms. Would you say this was a misunderstanding? Kant is of course notoriously difficult reading. When Kant defines phenomenal as “appearances” what would you say this implies?&lt;/i&gt;

People have certainly made the comparison between Kant and Plato, but I&#039;m a bit undecided, myself.
The problem with conception is that it can never grasp the thing in itself. Kant believes in an &#039;external&#039; reality, but he doesn&#039;t believe that one can get at it directly, since everything we can process is registered through our perceptual (i.e. space and time) and cognitive (i.e. Kant&#039;s categories) apparatus. This has the effect of creating two worlds - a world that we can grasp (that of appearances) and a world beyond us (the world &#039;in itself&#039;). 

I think Freud is interesting in connection with Kant, since Kant makes the proto-Freudian move of claiming that all we know of consciousness (apart from Kant&#039;s categories) is appearance. This leaves something radically unknowable at the other side of consciousness.

&lt;i&gt;Are you saying that according to Kant some aspects of reality can be known via perception but some can’t such as moral considerations?&lt;/i&gt;

I think that Kant calls himself an &#039;empirical realist&#039;, and believes that perception as applied to science, etc, can be perfectly valid. Kant seeks to delimit metaphysics, and believes there are problems it cannot solve, but does not say the same of science and mathematics. His moral philosophy is a different story. I don&#039;t think that Kant&#039;s moral philosophy derives directly from his metaphysics. He basically argues that one should &#039;act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law&#039;.

Freud was deemed unscientific by Popper on the grounds that psychoanalysis was allegedly unfalsifiable. Popper was wrong on that. Certainly, Freud&#039;s methods wouldn&#039;t pass for &#039;scientific&#039; among mainstream Anglophone psychologists, but then, the latter have their problems with science also.

&lt;i&gt;THR, your assertion that Rand clearly “didn’t understand anything she read” is just a little bit over the top don’t you think?&lt;/i&gt;

I think that, at a profound level, if one reads Dostoevsky or Tolstoy merely to see if they affirm your views on capitalism, and denounce them as &#039;evil&#039; if they don&#039;t, then yes, there is something fundamental that you don&#039;t understand. This applies to Rand without any mitigating factors. In addition, she&#039;s also brazenly intellectually dishonest or stupid, misrepresenting other philosophers repeatedly. This is why there are many great critiques of Kant, but Rand&#039;s monomaniacal efforts are not among them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>As I understand Kant thought the process of conception was by its nature distortionary.<br />
I could be wrong but his noumenal/phenomenal distinction seems very similar to Plato’s world of the forms. Would you say this was a misunderstanding? Kant is of course notoriously difficult reading. When Kant defines phenomenal as “appearances” what would you say this implies?</i></p>
<p>People have certainly made the comparison between Kant and Plato, but I&#8217;m a bit undecided, myself.<br />
The problem with conception is that it can never grasp the thing in itself. Kant believes in an &#8216;external&#8217; reality, but he doesn&#8217;t believe that one can get at it directly, since everything we can process is registered through our perceptual (i.e. space and time) and cognitive (i.e. Kant&#8217;s categories) apparatus. This has the effect of creating two worlds &#8211; a world that we can grasp (that of appearances) and a world beyond us (the world &#8216;in itself&#8217;). </p>
<p>I think Freud is interesting in connection with Kant, since Kant makes the proto-Freudian move of claiming that all we know of consciousness (apart from Kant&#8217;s categories) is appearance. This leaves something radically unknowable at the other side of consciousness.</p>
<p><i>Are you saying that according to Kant some aspects of reality can be known via perception but some can’t such as moral considerations?</i></p>
<p>I think that Kant calls himself an &#8216;empirical realist&#8217;, and believes that perception as applied to science, etc, can be perfectly valid. Kant seeks to delimit metaphysics, and believes there are problems it cannot solve, but does not say the same of science and mathematics. His moral philosophy is a different story. I don&#8217;t think that Kant&#8217;s moral philosophy derives directly from his metaphysics. He basically argues that one should &#8216;act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law&#8217;.</p>
<p>Freud was deemed unscientific by Popper on the grounds that psychoanalysis was allegedly unfalsifiable. Popper was wrong on that. Certainly, Freud&#8217;s methods wouldn&#8217;t pass for &#8216;scientific&#8217; among mainstream Anglophone psychologists, but then, the latter have their problems with science also.</p>
<p><i>THR, your assertion that Rand clearly “didn’t understand anything she read” is just a little bit over the top don’t you think?</i></p>
<p>I think that, at a profound level, if one reads Dostoevsky or Tolstoy merely to see if they affirm your views on capitalism, and denounce them as &#8216;evil&#8217; if they don&#8217;t, then yes, there is something fundamental that you don&#8217;t understand. This applies to Rand without any mitigating factors. In addition, she&#8217;s also brazenly intellectually dishonest or stupid, misrepresenting other philosophers repeatedly. This is why there are many great critiques of Kant, but Rand&#8217;s monomaniacal efforts are not among them.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23327</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23327</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The book is a little heavy-going, but it’s not really pomo.&lt;/i&gt;
.
Well according to mr Bahnisch neither is Foucault or Derrida. :)
.
&lt;i&gt;It’s a good demonstration that many of the standard readings of Nietzsche aren’t without alternatives.&lt;/i&gt;
.
I think there are as many readings as people who&#039;ve read him. He was always a bit crackers. Important to remember that.
.
&lt;i&gt;Dostoevsky is reduced to a mere ‘moralist’ depicting ‘evil’, who ‘was totally incapable of creating a positive or virtuous character’. Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina is denounced as an ‘evil book’. This is taking stupid to unprecedented depths. &lt;/i&gt;
.
Well if that opinion&#039;s sound, I agree. But people who judge literature as mere moral propaganda are stupid.  Books are either well-written or badly, that&#039;s it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The book is a little heavy-going, but it’s not really pomo.</i><br />
.<br />
Well according to mr Bahnisch neither is Foucault or Derrida. <img src='http://catallaxyfiles.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
.<br />
<i>It’s a good demonstration that many of the standard readings of Nietzsche aren’t without alternatives.</i><br />
.<br />
I think there are as many readings as people who&#8217;ve read him. He was always a bit crackers. Important to remember that.<br />
.<br />
<i>Dostoevsky is reduced to a mere ‘moralist’ depicting ‘evil’, who ‘was totally incapable of creating a positive or virtuous character’. Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina is denounced as an ‘evil book’. This is taking stupid to unprecedented depths. </i><br />
.<br />
Well if that opinion&#8217;s sound, I agree. But people who judge literature as mere moral propaganda are stupid.  Books are either well-written or badly, that&#8217;s it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim R</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23320</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23320</guid>
		<description>Yes my wording is not good there.  As I understand Kant thought the process of conception was by its nature distortionary.  
I could be wrong but his noumenal/phenomenal distinction seems very similar to Plato&#039;s world of the forms.  Would you say this was a misunderstanding?  Kant is of course notoriously difficult reading.  When Kant defines phenomenal as &quot;appearances&quot; what would you say this implies?  
Are you saying that according to Kant some aspects of reality can be known via perception but some can&#039;t such as moral considerations?  
In Objectivism the difference would then be that all knowledge ultimately reduces to perception - even though obviously we build on the knowledge of past generations and we do not perform this reduction on a day to day basis.  

From memory I think Rand approved of Nietzsche&#039;s individualism, but she did not approve of the Romanticist philosophers generally.  Predecessors such as Hegel have horrific political ideas.  Nietzsche&#039;s will to power ideas are ultimately contradictory to Rand&#039;s ideas.  Peikoff&#039;s book, the Omminous parallels details some very disturbing quotes from Romanticist philosophers including Schopenhauer - probably from his views on eugenics - I can&#039;t remember.  Fichte comes to mind.  

I don&#039;t currently see any value in Freud.  His hypotheses seem unscientific from what little I have read.  ie: if you&#039;re not behaving in an anal way, then you must be repressing it.  How convenient.  
Feel free to educate me further.  

THR, your assertion that Rand clearly &quot;didn&#039;t understand anything she read&quot; is just a little bit over the top don&#039;t you think?  

Also, as far as I&#039;m aware Rand thought Dostoevsky was a brilliant author - but highly malevolent eg/ Crime and Punishment.  I thought she highly admired his skill in integrating theme/character/plte.  Dostoevsky married a young women he did not love out of pity.  She eventually comitted suicide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes my wording is not good there.  As I understand Kant thought the process of conception was by its nature distortionary.<br />
I could be wrong but his noumenal/phenomenal distinction seems very similar to Plato&#8217;s world of the forms.  Would you say this was a misunderstanding?  Kant is of course notoriously difficult reading.  When Kant defines phenomenal as &#8220;appearances&#8221; what would you say this implies?<br />
Are you saying that according to Kant some aspects of reality can be known via perception but some can&#8217;t such as moral considerations?<br />
In Objectivism the difference would then be that all knowledge ultimately reduces to perception &#8211; even though obviously we build on the knowledge of past generations and we do not perform this reduction on a day to day basis.  </p>
<p>From memory I think Rand approved of Nietzsche&#8217;s individualism, but she did not approve of the Romanticist philosophers generally.  Predecessors such as Hegel have horrific political ideas.  Nietzsche&#8217;s will to power ideas are ultimately contradictory to Rand&#8217;s ideas.  Peikoff&#8217;s book, the Omminous parallels details some very disturbing quotes from Romanticist philosophers including Schopenhauer &#8211; probably from his views on eugenics &#8211; I can&#8217;t remember.  Fichte comes to mind.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t currently see any value in Freud.  His hypotheses seem unscientific from what little I have read.  ie: if you&#8217;re not behaving in an anal way, then you must be repressing it.  How convenient.<br />
Feel free to educate me further.  </p>
<p>THR, your assertion that Rand clearly &#8220;didn&#8217;t understand anything she read&#8221; is just a little bit over the top don&#8217;t you think?  </p>
<p>Also, as far as I&#8217;m aware Rand thought Dostoevsky was a brilliant author &#8211; but highly malevolent eg/ Crime and Punishment.  I thought she highly admired his skill in integrating theme/character/plte.  Dostoevsky married a young women he did not love out of pity.  She eventually comitted suicide.</p>
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		<title>By: daddy dave</title>
		<link>http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/03/14/begining-with-ayn-rand/comment-page-3/#comment-23300</link>
		<dc:creator>daddy dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 05:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=8565#comment-23300</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Daddy Dave, I can’t understand why you would hold that view. Many philosophers going right back to Aristotle would argue that at least some of their philosophical ideas rest on empirical observation.&lt;/i&gt;
.
Yeah but insufficiently so. Many philosophers are not as grounded as Aristotle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Daddy Dave, I can’t understand why you would hold that view. Many philosophers going right back to Aristotle would argue that at least some of their philosophical ideas rest on empirical observation.</i><br />
.<br />
Yeah but insufficiently so. Many philosophers are not as grounded as Aristotle.</p>
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