I don’t think there has been an issue quite like climate change in Australia in my lifetime. It is no longer a scientific debate, it is no longer a political debate – it has become a religion, a loyalty test and a focal point for inter tribal warfare.
The science has receded into the background in most of the fights. Most of the fighting is done by non scientists (with some exceptions) who have only a rough understanding of the science.
The politics hardly matter any more. Nothing Australia does will have any effect on global CO2 and, anyway, it seems highly likely that thee will be no international agreement of any substance.
Nevertheless, the fight is getting rougher and more malicious. Character assassination, offensive names, allegations of connections with creationism, tobacco denialism and other foolish or evil beliefs. It seems to me that more of the malice is coming from the believers but that might be just my biased impression.
The only think I can thing of in this country remotely similar was the anticommunist battle during the 50s. Though the government tried to do foolish things, such as making the Communist Party illegal, the Party did have significant power, controlling several unions, and was clearly the agent of a foreign government. So it was a real and important issue.
But that did not evoke the same vicious fight that we see with climate change.
The only thing similar that I know of was the catholic/protestant war in Northern Ireland. There is was – still is, probably – clear what side you were on because you were born into it. And it was more than religion. It was a class war between two classes fighting for power and jobs. It spilled over into organised crime, initially for fund raising and then because it was a lucrative profession.
Will the climate change fight turn violent? With the politicians losing interest will the campaigners take to the streets? Will any lights displayed during Earth Hour be smashed?
It is all fascinating to watch.
I don’t know Ken. The only people I encounter who are preoccupied with this ‘battle’ are on blogs. In real life, most people wouldn’t register that there’s any battle on at all. It’s all pretty removed from people’s day-to-day experiences, IMO.
THR
16 Mar 10 at 4:58 pm
I guess I am thinking of public media – not just blogs – THR. The temperature is high and we now have Murdoch papers v Fairfax papers with editorials drawn.
The person in the street is losing interest and that is why I wonder if it is going to become more violent, in language at least.
Ken Nielsen
16 Mar 10 at 5:16 pm
yea, I’m thinking it will turn violent at some stage.
Lot’s of things are said over the web which if were said in person could cause a fight and a few jaws broken.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 5:29 pm
Yes, the most ironic thing about the conflict is the fact that nothing we do in Australia will make a measurable difference to the climate. Maybe it would make a difference if we export more uranium to help other folk go nuclear.
Rafe
16 Mar 10 at 6:33 pm
Surprisingly gracious comment from Lovelock
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/lovelock_sceptics_kept_us_sane/
Jason Soon
16 Mar 10 at 7:01 pm
I always like Lovelock and I also have a grudging respect for Hansen too in some ways.
Both these guys show a straight up and down logic to the AGW issue. They think its hugely serious but at the same time see the need to maintain our energy output at reasonable high levels.
Lovelock has always been for nuke energy and Hansen went nuke sometime ago.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 7:06 pm
Ken, THR is right. I never run into climate change offline.
Peter Patton
16 Mar 10 at 7:17 pm
I would say there already has. You may remember in Sydney late 2007 an old guy was legitimately watering his garden was attacked and died. The simplistic argument of your hurting the planet was catalyst for this idiots regrettable rage. The court psychologist said there was no sign of mental illness.
DavidJ
16 Mar 10 at 7:22 pm
Yea, that would count as the first death in the country associated with global warming/environmentalism, as a result of cold blooded murder.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 7:27 pm
Nothing Australia does will have any effect on global CO2 and, anyway, it seems highly likely that thee will be no international agreement of any substance.
.
That’s right. We could keep burning coal and oil and tires or stop tomorrow morning and go scatching for witchety-grubs. Wouldn’t make a bit of difference. Hilarious innit?
Adrien
16 Mar 10 at 8:32 pm
“That’s right. We could keep burning coal and oil and tires or stop tomorrow morning and go scratching for witchety-grubs”
I’m not saying in the piece what should happen Adrien, just what I think will happen. My own view of what we should do is close to Rudd’s – no more no less than the rest of the world.
But then I believe we need to start looking at adaptation – after all that’s what humans have always been pretty good at. We’ve never been able to control nature so we’ve learned to live with it.
ken nielsen
16 Mar 10 at 8:39 pm
PP – You don’t read newspapers or watch TV?
ken nielsen
16 Mar 10 at 8:40 pm
ken, actually not really at all. I never watch Free to Air TV.
Peter Patton
16 Mar 10 at 8:41 pm
Yeah, well, that explains it PP. Not that I think you are missing much that is important.
ken nielsen
16 Mar 10 at 8:50 pm
It’s on the way out. The public is bored and the battle is nearly over.
The AGW lobby has lost the policy battle and the public opinion battle (not whether people take their word for it, but whether they care enough to want to do anything about it). In defeat, the AGW lobby are circling the wagons around the science itself. That’s the battle they cannot lose; even if they concede localised corruption within the science, or exaggerations from its proponents.
daddy dave
16 Mar 10 at 9:06 pm
I forgot the guy watering his lawn, David. In fact that whole water restrictions episode really brought the worst out in a lot of people.
skepticlawyer
16 Mar 10 at 9:10 pm
People dobbing in their neighbours over a leaky tap… very nasty stuff. The guy that was killed was watering his lawn on one of the allowed days as well, so he wasn’t even breaking restrictions. This do-gooder kept harassing him, so he turned the hose on him and told him to bugger off. He was then assaulted, suffered a heart-attack and died.
Scary thing is, a lot of people still support restrictions. Personally, I think it’s sad that today’s kids haven’t been able to play under the lawn sprinkler (not everybody has a pool)
Fleeced
16 Mar 10 at 9:24 pm
Interesting stuff Fleeced. We’re in the process of getting a restraining order on this nutcase that lives in the next door flats as he thinks we’re watering out garden.
We basically live in a cut out ditch and the house has agricultural drains around that collect the water from the perimeter and drain it into the gutter. There’s water draining even the heat of summer as the dug out at the back of the house is around 15 odd feet and the rear of the underground garage space is underground.
So this fucking loonie keeps ringing on our door bell and calling the water authority who apologetically come around and see that there is no moisture in the ground and leave.
The loon trashed a sprinkler system of the flats opposite us as a result of anger over water use. So a bunch of us neighbors are getting together and getting a restraining order.
This whole water restriction business has brought the neighborhood concern troll out ion full force.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 9:36 pm
Pity you couldn’t burn off in your backyard JC that would be fun
tal
16 Mar 10 at 9:38 pm
You actually had water authority people come and check?! Jeez, what a freaking loon! You have to wonder the mentality of these people… even if you were using water, why does he think it’s such a big problem? These people have whacked priorities.
If it’s any consolation, in twenty years time, he’ll likely be sitting in the corner of a small room in a mental home, rocking back and forth, chanting, “climate change is real… climate change is real…”
Fleeced
16 Mar 10 at 9:43 pm
Yea and put it out with the hose, Tal. That would send the loon bonkers.
It’s a real pity when you buy a house you can’t do a psychiatric check on the neighbors.
This is he biggest difference I’ve found between living here and the US. Americans essentially leave their neighbors alone and don’t go all environmentally nutzoid on others in terms of pushing their own opinions on how people should live. You can do what you like.
In almost every case we have friends here complaining about the local neighborhood concern troll.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 9:46 pm
Americans certainly respect property rights. The heritage loons that infest Australian suburbs are something to behold.
Infidel Tiger
16 Mar 10 at 9:53 pm
You actually had water authority people come and check?!
Yeah about 6 or 7 times in the past few years. The agricultural drains basically leaks all the time as it’s collecting deep earth water and spilling it out into the gutter.
The loon thinks we’re using our drip system as we used to have 3 separate systems but the dog literally ate them all of them so we don’t even water any more. This is another story but this fucking dog not only ate all the drip hoses, he also got stuck into the devices attached to the tap until there was nothing left.
Anyways, the guys come around, apologize for coming and I then insist they come in and check the water moisture in the earth and leave.
Recently they wrote a letter to the loon telling him that he was becoming a public nuisance and that they would no longer listen to his complaints.
The restraining order ought to work a treat as I can’t see the dude able to control himself, so when he goes nuts, the cops will have to act on the order and arrest the fucker which will amuse me to no end. The neighborhood will be cheering when he’s walked away in cuffs.
It’s a slow methodical screwing he know yet know about. He basically won’t be allowed to walk up the street under the order and will have to take the long way. It will send him bananas which I will truly enjoy.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 9:58 pm
It’s a slow methodical screwing he doesn’t know about yet.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 10:01 pm
Even if they found moisture, what would that prove? Couldn’t you claim that – being environmentally conscious – you showered with a bucket next to you and emptied it on the lawn afterward? (I knew someone who actually did that…)
Fleeced
16 Mar 10 at 10:03 pm
“Get off my lawn.”
Infidel Tiger
16 Mar 10 at 10:04 pm
it doesn’t prove anything I guess. You’re right. However no moisture proves there’s no water going into the soil and because it was dry I pleaded with them to check so as to leave no doubt.
There were basically two choices. Knock the fucker out which could end up badly for me, or get him in a slow painful way that sends him even crazier. Of course the latter path is more long term satisfying to me, as I know he’ll break the order and end up in serious trouble with the cops.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 10:11 pm
The world of Audi’s Green Police ad would be a utopia to these nutcases… Commit a recycling violation, and get sent to the organ banks for processing (now THAT’S recycling).
I probably shouldn’t make jokes like that – don’t want to give them any ideas
Fleeced
16 Mar 10 at 10:13 pm
I can’t believe how many of these nutcases- environmental concern trolls- there are in Australia. The place is literally infested with fuckers like that.
They read shitty papers like The Age, or watch crap on Their ABC sending these douches nutzoid about the “environment’.
They live in heavily urban areas in oz. There’s no “environment” other man made stuff. Yet they go mentally AWL over the “environment”.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 10:20 pm
The water thing is funny though – how does that hurt the environment – doesn’t your garden like the water? The water has more value in the dams than on your lawn?
Fleeced
16 Mar 10 at 10:23 pm
Yes Infidel the heritage concern troll loons ought to be sectioned off or sent to Afghanistan where they’ll quickly learn about heritage such as butt screwing or female slavery while admiring the old homes.
The market would look after “heritage’ very well.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 10:24 pm
They live in heavily urban areas in oz. There’s no “environment” other man made stuff. Yet they go mentally AWL over the “environment”..
You need to see the South Park episode where they so wonderfully sent up the urban greenie phenomenon. Your comment reminds me of a similiar trend with regard to aboriginal matters. All these people complaining about the plight of aborigines but the people who live amongst them are often have a very different view. Sometimes you have to get up close to appreciate what is going on, a fact that is lost on some ivory tower types. While I argued against the Intervention I have to accept that it appears to have done more good than all the hand wringing and reports and symbolic gestures put together. Still not sure but I think the data is heading that way.
John H.
16 Mar 10 at 10:25 pm
It’d be a different story if we were all armed JC.
Infidel Tiger
16 Mar 10 at 10:26 pm
Fleeced
Water to these loons means “environment”. They don’t see any difference. They think is all about being sustainable (another word I despise). All freaking water leads to the ocean anyway.
I’m waiting for the time when they stick the desal plant in, the dams fill up and the government will then try and sell as much water as it can because like any command system it’s either surplus or shortage.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 10:28 pm
Na infidel. Loons don’t frighten me even if they have a gun. I once had a gun pulled on me at night on 57th street and 6th Ave (in late 80′s) by a fucker wanting my wallet. I just continued walking and ignored the prick.
Look I could send this dude to hospital living on a drip for 6 months but cooking slow and easy like is really quite appealing.
You don’t need a gun to stare down a loon.
JC
16 Mar 10 at 10:34 pm
Other way round JC. You’d have the gun and would be able to warn the loon off your compound with a few rounds of buckshot. Good fences and accurate weapons make good neighbours.
Infidel Tiger
16 Mar 10 at 10:37 pm
Clint had it right, gents.
“Get off my lawn”.
Not exactly an OAP in a cardigan, was he?
Blue steel and walnut tends to focus the opposition’s mind remarkably well.
Pedro the Ignorant
17 Mar 10 at 1:28 am
I think it will quietly disappear as an issue, just like the population explosion scare, the Silent Spring scare, the Club of Rome scare, the air pollution issue, and whatever else the left has seized on as an excuse to try to implement their old-fashioned discredited socialist ideas.
MAGB
17 Mar 10 at 11:48 am
I’m reading a book at the moment titled, “The Science of Fear” by Daniel Gardner.
It’s a good book that explains how people irrationally mis-calculate fear and how the media plagues the populace with fear campaigns.
It mentions how 3000 died in 911. People then took to avoiding airlines, which an academic from the Max Planck researched and came up with the result that there were 2000 extra road deaths as more took to driving rather than flying.
Part of the book has an interesting part on St. Rachael Carson. The author explains that her book, silent spring was based on a faulty premise of all and that her argument ended up being a complete crock of swill.
Carson premised her book that man-made chemicals were the cause of the spike in cancer deaths. In fact that was the entire argument of her book. Amusingly Carson mentions tobacco smoking, but rather than suggesting tobacco itself was the leading cause of cancer she argued that it was the chemicals inside used by the growers and the companies causing the health problem. Lol.
The author went on to explain Carson’s silly fear ridden error in that cancer come to the forefront as longevity rates rose (cancer hits older people) and as other diseases such as Malaria and dysentery were dealt with public health policies automatically causing cancer rates to go up as the others went down.
This silliness was what started the modern environmental movement.
JC
17 Mar 10 at 12:08 pm
Just your biased impression, actually. Most of those suporting the view that AGW was a serious problem were for a long time very civil and happy to argue the case on its merits. Unfortunately, many of those on the other side of the debate resorted to underhand tactics almost from the outset, using obfuscation and simple lies to try to obscure admittedly complex truths.
At some point, however, repeated cases of bad faith argumentation do not warrant polite and careful responses. At some point, denialism need to be called for what it is. Your post is about shooting the denialist messenger, when it should be denialism in your sights.
The troll formerly known as Tom N.
17 Mar 10 at 7:26 pm
TomN – get off your arse and name these uncivil people. Show us the evidence of their non-civility. You do know what evidence is, don’t you?
While you’re at it, think about these words.
Calling people holocaust deniers is not appropriate or consistent with civil behaviour. Just saying. Now I don’t want to be horrible about this; people do not want to be called holocaust deniers and people do not want to have their intelligence insulted. You alarmists have played hard and fast, very hard very fast, and now you’ve been caught out. Try to be gracious in defeat; it would reflect well on you.
Sinclair Davidson
17 Mar 10 at 9:00 pm
At some point, however, repeated cases of bad faith argumentation do not warrant polite and careful responses.
.
so… you’re agreeing with Sinclair? But wait. You said
.
Just your biased impression
.
oh, so… you’re disagreeing with Sinclair? Okay.
I’m glad we cleared that up.
Your reponse is, if I may paraphrase:
“It isn’t true, and anyway they deserve it.”
daddy dave
17 Mar 10 at 9:10 pm
Not me, Ken.
Sinclair Davidson
17 Mar 10 at 9:13 pm
JC, who by his own admission doesnt read much, reads someone elses opinion of another’s work and uses that to form his own opinion…
..which isnt worth much
rog
17 Mar 10 at 9:41 pm
TommyN you seem very upset again. How can I help?
Do you scream at walls?
JC
17 Mar 10 at 9:44 pm
Rog:
I don’t read fiction, rog, you intellectual baboon. It’s non-fiction that I don’t read.
I actually read around 4 hours a day, pouring through company research you mental eggbeater.
JC
17 Mar 10 at 9:48 pm
You dont read a lot do you..
rog
17 Mar 10 at 10:17 pm
The problem for the likes of Tom N is that ‘the Troubles’ are beginning to occur within the discipline itself:
http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2010/03/curry-vs-mann-in-discover.html
dover_beach
17 Mar 10 at 10:46 pm
Gardner’s book sounds good – I’ll have to check it out. Carson’s name – and influence – illustrates that a treatise on the death toll wrought by environmental fundamentalists and millennarian warmenists would be very worthwhile about now. The Carson zombies and the bio-fuel brigade are responsible for far more deaths than occur in most modern wars. So far, the death toll from “climate change,” by way of comparison, is four insulation workers.
C.L.
17 Mar 10 at 10:55 pm
Dover:
Michael Mann sounds a truly unpleasant little person. It seems like its a common strain about the top layer of this science.
Did you ask Judith to turn over her e-mails from the past three years? Once she does that, then she’s in a position to judge other scientists. Until she does that, she is not in a position to be talking about other scientists. Glass houses. Look, I’ll just say this. I’ve received e-mails from Judith that she would not want to be made public.
Fact is not all Mann’s emails were made public. Fact is he’s taking a swipe at Curry with the threat.
Curry ought to simply ask him to publish all her correspondence as I’m sure there’s nothing there and ask Mann to do the same.
JC
17 Mar 10 at 11:30 pm
JC, Mann is a piece of work. Really, he is the worst of a rotten bunch.
dover_beach
17 Mar 10 at 11:43 pm
Yea I know and since the emails release his modis has become far more transparent and easy to figure.
He really is a discredit to science and it’s unfortunate he seems to have a senior position in the science until now.
Judith Curry on the other hand is a great. She really presents well the case that there is a serious concern with AGW and what to do about it.
Some of the loonies take me for a sceptic because I can’t stand the sight of people like Mann and Chuckie impersonator – Gavin Schmidt- However the future of climate science is with people like Judith Curry and not with “the team”. The team is so yesterday.
‘
JC
18 Mar 10 at 12:03 am
“Judith Curry on the other hand is a great. ”
Just hold that moment JC!
She says that she has served her time in the trenches taking on skeptics like yourself
rog
18 Mar 10 at 6:08 am
You are a skeptic if you think that there is no problem now.
rog
18 Mar 10 at 6:09 am
Here is Krosnick on the polls
rog
18 Mar 10 at 6:25 am
AGW is a cinch – 100% tax exemptions for 30 years for firms and individuals for all taxes for the extent that you are carbon neutral.
(A nuclear power plant with 95% carbon offsets and a $10 mln tax bill would pay $500 000 tax).
A farmer who offsets 100% by practising carbon sequestering sustainable agriculture would pay no tax.
A no regrets policy like this would be far better than a cap and trade or another tax.
If Penny Wong doesn’t exaggerate sea level rises, we’re sweet.
Semi Regular Libertarian
18 Mar 10 at 6:57 am
Rog:
I’m not a sceptic, whereas you’re a pathetic, poisonous little doctors wife and mostly illiterate.
go away and us all alone, you quisling.
JC
18 Mar 10 at 8:16 am