There really is some strange stuff appearing on Drum/Unleashed on the ABC website.
Today’s is a piece by Michael Head a law teacher at University of Western Sydney under the title Stoking Fears of Terrorism. The thesis is that the Howard government and the subsequent Labor governments have provoked fear of terrorism “To provide a pretext for anti-democratic ‘terrorism’ laws and to justify its participation in the US-led military occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq.” A raid just before the election on homes of Kurdish Australians was timed to show that the Labor government was tough on terrorism, we are told.
Head seems to be close to the Kurds in this country and writes:
“the PKK is not a terrorist group, but a political organisation. While the PKK has been involved in actions targeting civilians in Turkey, successive Turkish governments are responsible for the armed conflict. The Turkish military and allied fascist gangs have a long history of terrorism against the Kurdish minority and other political opponents.”
He goes on:
“By the time of the 2007 election, the anti-terrorism laws became discredited by the exposure of a series of frame-ups involving alleged Muslim terrorist suspects, including Mohamed Haneef, Itzar ul-Haque, David Hicks and Jack Thomas.”
Now, we can be uncomfortable about the reach of the antiterrorism laws (I am) but to argue that the PKK is not a terrorist organisation because the Turkish government started the violence and that Haneef, Hicks and the others were framed are views you might expect from a conspiracy-theorising partisan, not a scholar.
Nothing wrong with conspiracy-theorising partisans either, but I don’t believe a university teacher should use his job title when running those theories. I could also say that the ABC website could publish better stuff than this but The Drum/Unleashed (I still don’t understand the difference) is now probably beyond salvage. Leaving aside bias, the quality of the stuff being run would look bad on an amateur blog.
Bird gets to comment all he wants on that site. What does that tell you? The moderators have an unparalleled liberal policy of contributions.
jtfsoon
2 Sep 10 at 1:42 pm
Yes, Jason, dopey comments I can take.
But stuff like this makes me ignore the whole site.
As I have said before here, I like reading articles that challenge my beliefs and opinions. though they need to be reasonable sensible, which this ain’t.
All a great pity.
Ken Nielsen
2 Sep 10 at 4:09 pm
The PKK are both a political group and a terrorist group, though one might question the legitimacy of the latter designation given that it was most likely invoked to appease Turkey.
The history of terror legislation in Australia since 9/11 makes governments on both sides look rather dubious. Whilst Haneef wasn’t framed per se, he was clearly harassed without any real evidence of wrongdoing, and given Howard’s track record, it’s hardly a stretch to suspect that this was politically motivated. Ditto the Kurds – they’ve been raided repeatedly by police, without any evidence of wrongdoing, and without any charges having been laid.
THR
2 Sep 10 at 4:43 pm
“but I don’t believe a university teacher should use his job title when running those theories.”
In this age of transparency, why not?
rog
2 Sep 10 at 5:41 pm
Wodge, you brainless twerpette.
It would be like a professor holding the view that 911 was an inside job and posting the article with his job title.
You really do adorn the comments section of the blog, don’t you?
JC
2 Sep 10 at 5:56 pm
Well, Rog, he is using the university brand. If he was speaking within his area of expertise, maybe, but otherwise I think he is misusing his title.
But then UWS…
Ken n
2 Sep 10 at 6:42 pm
THR
Haneef was released very quickly as a result of our system of law and justice working through its processes. Lots of people are arrested and detained who are later released after investigation. Haneef’s case and his ordeal pale into insignificance compared to all those people on remand for months on end for the pettiest of accusations, many of whom are acquitted when they finally come to court.
And you rest assured the conditions of their incarceration would be nowhere near as accommodating as Dr. Haneef’s.
Peter Patton
2 Sep 10 at 6:51 pm
PP : Yeah.
Ken n
2 Sep 10 at 6:56 pm
“Haneef’s case and his ordeal pale into insignificance compared to all those people on remand for months on end for the pettiest of accusations, many of whom are acquitted when they finally come to court.”
Any examples?
FDB
2 Sep 10 at 7:20 pm
Here’s an example FDB
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/hey-hey-its-a-very-sad-day-for-justice-20100610-y0cz.html
15 year old boy falsely accused of rape, remanded for close to a year despite none of his DNA being present.
And he’s not even black.
Yobbo
2 Sep 10 at 7:38 pm
FDB:
How the fuck do we deal with it other than what is happening now? Tell us.
If you’re going to allow Muslim immigrants in then we need lot more policing against terror. It’s not as though we don’t know this.
It’s really bad luck what happened to Haneefs but at the same time it’s no use for Muslim’s to be pretending they are going to be treated equally in a western non-Muslim setting when there are enough of them trying to pick up 72 virgins in paradise.
In fact it’s us that ought to be pissed because of the many times we’re treated like shit going though an airport having to take off our shoes and get frisked. One could very well blame Muslims for that and for the fact that say a blonde woman with three kids is treated like a potential terror suspect in order to placate Muslims to give the appearance of equal treatment when in fact it should be nothing of the sort.
JC
2 Sep 10 at 7:39 pm
Where’s the chorus of left-wing justice seekers storming the streets protesting on behalf of this kid FDB?
Yobbo
2 Sep 10 at 7:39 pm
More: http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/innocent-boys-jail-nightmare/story-e6frg12c-1111113259916
Yobbo
2 Sep 10 at 7:45 pm
Re the pre-election Kurdish raid, I thought it was odd how little Outrageous Outrage there was from lefties.
Then I remembered HoWARd wasn’t around and the Coalition wasn’t in office anymore. That explains why it was no biggie.
C.L.
2 Sep 10 at 7:49 pm
The Kurds benefitted from the Iraq war?
Adrien
2 Sep 10 at 8:05 pm
And you rest assured the conditions of their incarceration would be nowhere near as accommodating as Dr. Haneef’s.
Nonsense. Very few people are remanded. The 15-year old above is an extreme example, and even in his case, he didn’t have the likes of Kevin Andrews personally intervening to deport him, and extract a bit of political mileage from the redneck crowd. It’s absolutely baffling that any reasonable person would even attempt to justify Andrews’ treatment of Mohammed Haneef.
THR
2 Sep 10 at 8:24 pm
…he didn’t have the likes of Kevin Andrews personally intervening to deport him…
I don’t know enough or have forgotten about the case except that lefties hate Kevin Andrews.
However I really don’t think it’s fair to be comparing 12 months in jail on remand and being sent back to where you came from.
From what i recall the Haneef case wasn’t too far in time interval from the Scotland bombing attempt orchestrated by a couple of medical or university students who also happened to be Muslims. So this wasn’t too far out of left field.
Also from memory he simply wasn’t found to be guilty although there seemed to be a few clues that he wasn’t Mr. Islam-doesn’t-preach-violence.
JC
2 Sep 10 at 8:30 pm
The larger issue with this site, Drum/Unleashed, is the opinion pieces being written by the supposedly objective journalists employed by the ABC – for example, Fran Kelly’s absolutely appalling piece on the new political paradigm, see http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/02/3001013.htm?site=thedrum.
She, along with the other journalists writing these pieces, are violating every clause of the Editorial Guidelines to which they are expected to adhere. Just read how she regrets the demise of the NBN, the GP Superclinics, computers in schools if Abbott becomes PM. She should NOT be expressing these views and they do not become balanced just because she mentions the paid parental leave scheme of Abbott.
The ABC has completely lost its way – an appalling coverage of the campaign and now the boring and opinionated ABC 24 (check out the TV version of the Drum at 6.10 pm – with the likes of Simon Sheikh as ‘expert’ (of nothing).
And these comments are from someone who once sat on the Board of the ABC.
Judith Sloan
2 Sep 10 at 9:31 pm
Judith:
With due deference but why didn’t you or say Albrectsen demand big changes and expose the dishonesty that’s going on there and if those demands weren’t met you’d resign and publicly explain why?
Fran Kelly is an ill-educated- tribalist tractor, so I’m not shocked she’s breaching her responsibilities. Having said that I would also say it’s up to the board to have made sure Kelly was on the street rather than earning a salary of the long suffering taxpayer.
JC
2 Sep 10 at 9:42 pm
oops… from the long suffering..
JC
2 Sep 10 at 9:48 pm
The ABC board is toothless, JC. To rid it of it’s leftist virus they’d need to fire everyone, salt the ground and start again. Privatise the beast, then at least it’s not happening on our dime.
Infidel Tiger
2 Sep 10 at 10:11 pm
Well no, it’s not toothless. People think that, but I disagree. One of the responsibilities of the the board is to ensure the corporation runs by its charter. IF it isn’t doing that it requires answers. If the answers and the solutions are not forthcoming it fires the CEO and perhaps several senior executives until they find the CEO prepared to run by the charter.
The board could seek outside assistance from say one of the large and prestigious consultancies to advise them on just how bias is the ABC.
Dude there a plenty of fucking ways to skin a cat.
I skinned myself a Chairman of a not large but not small either investment company by spending 200 bucks getting the names of the largest shareholders and calling them asking for support in calling an extraordinary general meeting and firing the chairman.
People think this shit is too hard, but it can be done.
You start firing the CEO for non-compliance and I guarantee you that shit-hole would be so unbiased you could run a cotton thread down the middle. Those lefties there would be falling over themselves in a day trying to suck up. In fact if I now my lefties they would all become right wing to save their jobs.
JC
2 Sep 10 at 10:20 pm
I dunno how often the board meets but at the very least they should be asking for a pre-agreed set of metrics on how to measure bias and if the corporation is meeting those guidelines. A good consultancy like McKinseys could easily set up that shit and you attack from there.
They would be both qualitative and quantitative in assessment.
Just get a top of the mill consulting firm that is beyond reproach and beyond criticism to prepare both an assessment of the situation and set of metrics to measure the thing and you begin the attack slowly methodically and purposefully without taking prisoners.
JC
2 Sep 10 at 10:27 pm
Define “very few” THR?
Around 20% of the total prison population are remandees, and it’s been steadily increasing in the last 30 years. It’s not rare at all.
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/8/D/E/%7B8DE2E6F6-9D25-45E8-AED0-39FA7CC9EA79%7Dtandi310.pdf
Dr Haneef is just one of about 5000 people at any one time who was remanded while awaiting trial. The left used this as proof of systemic Australian racism.
However, an innocent 15 year old boy imprisoned on the say-so of a girl who the court knew was lying from the get-go, is not proof of any sort of systemic bias in the legal system whatsoever.
Go figure.
Yobbo
2 Sep 10 at 10:39 pm
Remandees are very few as a proportion of total arrests/charges. That’s what I meant. It’s true of Victoria, at least.
THR
2 Sep 10 at 10:51 pm
And terrorist suspects an even more minute fraction of remandees. And yet you choose to focus obsessively on this one isolated case. Typical disingenuous leftist abuse of race to achieve political points in other battles. Disgusting.
Peter Patton
2 Sep 10 at 10:56 pm
Sure THR, then again a lot of people arrested/charged are for crimes that wouldn’t warrant prison time even if convicted.
Remandees are becoming much more common among people charged with serious crimes.
Yobbo
2 Sep 10 at 10:56 pm
Typical disingenuous leftist abuse of race to achieve political points in other battles.
Yeah, of course PP. It was me, not Kevin Andrews, who brought Haneef to the attention of the world, and who campaigned to have him deported. Idiot.
Sure THR, then again a lot of people arrested/charged are for crimes that wouldn’t warrant prison time even if convicted.
Yes, that’s true, but that only proves that there are a lot of senseless laws on our books.
My experience of remand (anecdotally, from my dealings with coppers) is that almost nobody in Vic gets remanded unless they’re being charged with a fairly serious offence, have a shocking track record, are a flight risk, or unless they’re caught in the act of doing something by police. Even then, one of these factors on its own may not suffice to get somebody remanded. A lot of burglaries or relatively minor assaults by parolees, for instance, don’t result in remand.
THR
3 Sep 10 at 12:44 am
almost nobody in Vic gets remanded unless they’re being charged with a fairly serious offence
As in, something that would result in them being jailed if found guilty?
A lot of burglaries or relatively minor assaults by parolees, for instance, don’t result in remand.
Yes, because people don’t get in prison for those crimes.
Are you suffering a bad case of typing diarrhea, or is it normal for you to spend time typing things as obvious as “the sky is blue”?
And I still fail to see how any of this is in any way disproving the charge here, which is that the left made a big deal about the Haneef case for political reasons.
Yobbo
3 Sep 10 at 1:19 am
I think anyone suspected of anything related to terrorism should be remanded, becuase risk is immense. A suspected rapist is unlikely to be dangerous unless he is a member of a suspected criminal gang.
However there is a good reason to suspect that this was used by both government for political purposes. Not necessarily the action itself, but its form and/or timing. That’s deplaurable.
PKK is a terrrorist gang which orchestrated terror campaign. Has been like that for decades.
Boris
3 Sep 10 at 2:05 am
THR
First of let me say that I voted Kevin Andrews as Australia’s most appalling person in 2007. But your distortion of the facts – or ignorance of them – must be corrected, for your own good.
1. Nearly 30% of Victoria’s jail population are on remand.
2.Of those remanded by the lower courts, the average incarceration time is 3 months, which is very high when you consider that lower courts maximum sentence is 2 years.
3. Nearly 10% of those who appear before the local courts are refused bail.
4. In the higher courts, average remand time is TEN months. For the higher courts that figure rises to nearly 50%
5. With the exception of the cancellation of Haneef’s visa, all other actions were those of the Federal Police, DPP, and the Federal Court.
6. The day Dr. Haneef was arrested the Feds said they did not know whether he had committed any crime, and could be released very soon.
7. An ordinary old magistrate ordered he was to be released on bail – yes the very same magistracy, which refuses bail to nearly 30% of others. The bail was only $10,000.
8. A week after that a mere magistrate forced the DPP to drop all charges. In other words, from the time of arrest to the time when all charges were dropped was TWO weeks; not the average of 10 months.
9. From the time of arrest at Brisbane airport till the time he next saw his family in India was a whole 3 weeks!
Peter Patton
3 Sep 10 at 11:49 am
PP,
You’re conflating issues. You’re essentially arguing that Haneef should be grateful for his extremely shabby treatment because some remandees are treated even worse.
And I still fail to see how any of this is in any way disproving the charge here, which is that the left made a big deal about the Haneef case for political reasons.
You’re having trouble with basic cause and effect. Kevin Andrews brought Haneef to media attention for political purposes. In response, many people (not just the mythical left) were appalled.
THR
3 Sep 10 at 1:10 pm
Kevin Andrews brought Haneef to media attention for political purposes.
Like the ATO with the compulsorily detained Paul Hogan.
C.L.
3 Sep 10 at 1:55 pm
Like the ATO with the compulsorily detained Paul Hogan.
Except that the ATO aren’t helping anybody’s election campaign, and Hogan is a confirmed tax-dodger, whereas Haneef was a falsely-accused terrorist.
THR
3 Sep 10 at 1:57 pm
Andrews followed the advice he was given. The fact that it became a media circus was down to the nature of the offence (and reporting from the UK), the fact that the AFP (like all Australian police services) have a symbiotic and naive relationship with the press, and the fact that the civil libertarians good another “war woody” over the affair.
Peter has explained it clearly and you still won’t accept that it has been overblown. No one here is surprised, THR.
Ev630
3 Sep 10 at 3:10 pm
“got” another
Ev630
3 Sep 10 at 3:11 pm
Peter has explained it clearly and you still won’t accept that it has been overblown. No one here is surprised, THR.
Andrews didn’t merely ‘follow advice’, he went out of his way to intervene, and to publicise said intervention.
Trolling FAIL, Ev.
THR
3 Sep 10 at 9:56 pm
I think you’ll find he was led by the advice he received. It may surprise you to know that Ministers can be influenced by agencies. Of course it would, you have an Oliver Stone view of the world, so Andrews (and indeed all conservative politicians) must assume some sort of sinister dimension in your tiny ideology-addled mind.
The truth is in front of you in this thread, but you’d rather eat shit pan fried in olive oil than admit it.
Ev630
3 Sep 10 at 10:11 pm
Hogan is an alleged tax-dodger, please.
Sinclair Davidson
3 Sep 10 at 10:18 pm
I think you’ll find he was led by the advice he received. It may surprise you to know that Ministers can be influenced by agencies
Dribbling idiot. Andrews’ decision to cancel Haneef’s visa was his decision, and not based on advice from the ‘agencies’. ASIO’s advice was that Haneef was not a security threat.
You’ve failed again.
THR
3 Sep 10 at 10:19 pm
Want some bread to get all that gravy, THR?
Ev630
3 Sep 10 at 10:20 pm
Maybe you’d feel more at home on one of Andrew Bolt’s threads, Ev. You’d be big there, being the only one with a Year 10 certificate (or equivalent).
THR
3 Sep 10 at 10:22 pm
You seem to forget that there were a range of agencies advising the Minister, it depends on who is most persuasive at the time – though hindsight is a glorious thing – so wipe that shit-eating grin off your face.
Ev630
3 Sep 10 at 10:22 pm
Three weeks, THR. He got a better deal than most. Go back and re-read the thread.
Ev630
3 Sep 10 at 10:25 pm
The haranguing of Hogan by the ATO is testament to the nightmare of big government. I wouldn’t give Australia the shrimp heads from my bin if I was him.
Infidel Tiger
3 Sep 10 at 10:25 pm
So which agency was urging the big press conferences, and
telling Andrews to get as much mileage from this as possible? And, on the same theme, which agency was telling the Libs (in 2007) to spread pamphlets in Lindsay, proclaiming that the ALP were pro-terrorist? You can hardly accuse anybody else of a shit-eating grin, when defending Kevin Andrews ipso facto makes you the Coalition’s Analingus-Advisor-in-Chief.
THR
3 Sep 10 at 10:25 pm
What are we arguing here? That Andrews got mileage out of it for political purposes? Duh. Correct – though there was an appetite for information. Or are we arguing that Haneef got a worse deal than 99% of suspects in this country? Incorrect.
The irony is I agree the whole thing was a farce. I feel sorry for the bastard. What I disagree with is your default position that it’s some evil neocon conspiracy, Mr.Coprophage.
Ev630
3 Sep 10 at 10:32 pm
THR
Every single “fact” you have introduced into each of your incoherent posts has been countered and quashed. Please read over your contribution to this discussion, look yourself in the mirror, and ask why you – yet – post more ignorant garbage.
Dude, you really are sailing very close to Lefty Kim territory.
Peter Patton
3 Sep 10 at 10:32 pm
Dr. Haneef = The Kurds!
ROFLMAO.
Peter Patton
3 Sep 10 at 10:34 pm
Shorter THR:
Kevin Andrews’ “harassing” Dr. Haneef = Saddam Hussein’s gassing the Kurds.
Peter Patton
3 Sep 10 at 10:48 pm
Kevin Andrews’ “harassing” Dr. Haneef = Saddam Hussein’s gassing the Kurds.
Take it easy on the Midori, darling. You’re not making any sense.
The point of this post had nothing to do with whether Haneef’s treatment was the worst in the country, or whether other remandees copped worse. The two aren’t really commensurate, since Haneef had his visa revoked (courtesy of Andrews, not the agencies).
What I disagree with is your default position that it’s some evil neocon conspiracy,
Where did I talk about a conspiracy? I said Haneef was harassed. He was. An independent inquiry found as much.
THR
3 Sep 10 at 10:53 pm
Haneef was a falsely-accused terrorist.
Ahem. Surely you mean Haneef was falsely accused of being a terrorist.
Mistakes: they happen.
C.L.
3 Sep 10 at 11:06 pm
Except that the ATO aren’t helping anybody’s election campaign…
What on earth are you talking about, THR? The 2007 election was held on 24 November. Haneef was arrested at Brisbane airport on 2 July. The DPP withdrew the charge on 27 July. He left Australia two days later.
Look, excuse me if I don’t weep a lagoon for a bloke who was incarcerated for three weeks when the current government has managed to get dozens of asylum seekers killed on the high seas.
And four other blokes in ceilings.
Andrews was duty-bound to be zealous – that’s what you want in counter-terrorism. But a screw-up indubitably took place and a man’s liberty was taken away. That’s no small matter. But whose fault was it? Preponderantly, the AFP’s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamed_Haneef
C.L.
3 Sep 10 at 11:21 pm
THR
Is there ANY of our civic institutions of which you are not completely oblivious and/or ignorant?
Peter Patton
3 Sep 10 at 11:23 pm
Hogan released from detention.
Looks like the ATO was just trying to shake him up (and shake him down).
Looks like that strategy failed.
C.L.
3 Sep 10 at 11:25 pm
I must admit to finding the Drum so ridiculous, I have not been able to resist troll-ism.
Just so long as my “opinions” mesh with the leftist narrative they are published, no matter how ridiculous.
And you must admit, there is a perverse pleasure in watching and charting Crazy Clive Hamilton’s mental degeneration, article by article. A decent, ethical organisation would not allow someone ith his problems to make a fool of themselves. But then we are talking ABC…
yowie
20 Sep 10 at 6:13 pm