Open Forum September 4, 2010 at Catallaxy Files

Open Forum September 4, 2010

1,116 comments

Written by Sinclair Davidson

September 4th, 2010 at 12:27 am

Posted in Uncategorized

1,116 Responses to 'Open Forum September 4, 2010'

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Hilarious, obviously ‘uncosted’ poll analysis from The Age:

Poll points independents to Labor.

Really?

MORE than a third of voters say the three country independents should back a Gillard government, according to a poll showing voters split on what should happen with the hung parliament.

In the Sydney Morning Herald-Telereach-JWS Research poll, 37 per cent said the independents should side with Julia Gillard, 31 per cent urged them to go with Tony Abbott, while 26 per cent want another election. The national poll of 4192 voters on Thursday night also found that if there was a fresh election, there would be a small swing to the Coalition, but another hung parliament. Polling was done with automated phone calls.

So 57 percent of voters favour an Abbott government or want to return to the polls – where another swing to Abbott might very well deliver him government outright.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 12:45 am
Victor Davis Hanson gives ten reasons why an increasing number of Americans now wish George W. Bush was back in charge.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 12:47 am
This is pretty amazing what’s going on here. The electorate has nudged center right and we’re about to get the most left wing government in history with the Greens making Whitlam look right wing.

This is truly freaking amazing.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 12:50 am
Remember, it’s not over yet, JC. There could be some drama yet. In any event, the electorate hasn’t moved to the centre right,as you can see from the Senate results, which are proportional. The electorate has moved centre-left, but with a dislike of the ALP. An ALP government dependent upon third parties could actually be the best government this nation has had for a while.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 12:53 am
Very funny:

Ann Coulter: Obama Is Not A Muslim.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 12:59 am
THR

The 2PP has moved to the right. The most favored party is the Libs.

I also said we nudged center right, not that we heaved there and with all that Labor and the Greens create an alliance pushing us hard left. This is too funny to be real. Labor/ Gillfried seem to be in some parallel universe.

The senate is second fiddle as it’s not where the primary seat of government rests, so suggesting that somehow that suggests otherwise is not dealing correctly with the situation.

There was never an appetite in the electorate for a far left government which is what Gillfried is offering.

Screw her and fuck the boat she came over in.
‘

JC

4 Sep 10 at 1:04 am
How’s your kid anyway, THR?

JC

4 Sep 10 at 1:05 am
CL, that’s a characteristically idiotic article by Coulter. She questions whether Obama is a ‘real’ Christian. Well, fair enough. Let the theologians debate it. The debate that is happening, however, is not over Obama’s purported Christianity, but over whether he is in fact a Muslim. Coulter’s pals are debating this in the MSM all the time. That’s the embarrassing level to which political discourse has sunk in the US.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 1:05 am
Greens’ first order of business:

1) Roll Julia Gillard.
2) Emergency legislation for homosexuals who want to officially pretend to get married.

Greens to rush same-sex bill.

THE Greens will use their alliance with Labor to prosecute their push for same-sex marriage and liberalising the treatment of refugees by bringing forward their legislation and demanding it be debated, possibly with conscience votes, in the new parliament.

Their other priority is banning junk food advertising.

Something has to be banned.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 1:06 am
How’s your kid anyway, THR?

She’s good, jc. Some teething problems (literally) but good. How bout you?

As for Gillard, I doubt there’ll be anything far-left in her government. The Greens held the balance of power in Victoria for the past few years, and if anything, they were a moderating influence over the ALP hacks. I actually think a minority ALP government would be a huge improvement over the last two.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 1:08 am
The only ones discussing it are left-wing talk-show hosts like Chris “Tingles” Matthews, THR.

Coulter bops Matthews beautifully:

And, for the record, the allegedly inviolate assertion of one’s own religious belief wasn’t so inviolate when it came to Ronald Reagan.

Tip O’Neill used to question President Reagan’s Christianity all the time, taunting the president for not attending church regularly. Matthews might remember that: He was working for O’Neill at the time.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 1:08 am
Who’s debating if he’s a Muslim, THR? The real debate ought to be what the fuck was the crashing bore doing in Jemimah Wright’s congregation for 20 odd years and pretending he didn’t hear shit about whitey being related to pigs? That’s the real question.

As for people on the right thinking he’s Muslim, who cares if he is, as the Dems are going to get absolutely steel rodded in November potentially turning them into a rump of a party.

I says loss 110 seats as the undecideds turn to the GOP.

As for Hopehchange when (as a democrat) you lose Letterman, you’re basically fucked. He’s not bright enough to be able move right in the same way as Clinton did because people won’t the fucker. He just don;t have the dexterity in his step.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 1:14 am
According to Glenn Beck, 18-24% of Americans think Obama is a Muslim:

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/44502/

Since I’m guessing the same respondees equate Islam with pure evil, that’s a pretty high number, and a pretty poor reflection on political debate at the moment.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 1:20 am
Christopher Pearson excellent as always.

Sinclair Davidson

4 Sep 10 at 1:24 am
How’s your kid anyway, THR?

She’s good, jc. Some teething problems (literally) but good. How bout you?

I think mine are still teething…Lol.

On a serious note, my little babe is threatening not to come back home. She’s still away, says she won’t come back because we took her away from her real home and she’s staying put.

We’re really upset about all this but we can’t do much about it as it’s her life and an age when she can make her own decisions…. I guess.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 1:25 am
Can I just add one thing on this Muslim thing..

….having 20% of the population think you’re a Muslim is not a great election winner.

If any American is reading… hear it from me… I saw him running around that black rock in Mecca wearing a white gown. I saw him with my own eyes.

He’s definitely a Muslim, so vote accordingly in 12.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 1:32 am
Bob knows his priorities….

THE Greens will use their alliance with Labor to prosecute their push for same-sex marriage and liberalising the treatment of refugees by bringing forward their legislation and demanding it be debated, possibly with conscience votes, in the new parliament.

Yep. Defict reduction takes second stage. Onya Bobster.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 1:35 am
Fair dinkum, but is Paul Kelly Mentally sound these days?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/gillard-on-the-move-for-power/story-e6frg6zo-1225914022561

JC

4 Sep 10 at 1:38 am
Religion of Peace update: Sydney-based Sheik Feiz Mohamed calls for the beheading of non-violent Dutch MP Geert Wilders. I didn’t realise that free speech included the right to incite the murder of a political opponent. Seeing as it clearly does, feel free to chop Mohamed’s head off if you bump into him down at Woolies.

Michael Fisk

4 Sep 10 at 3:22 am
Did he say that in Sydney?

If so, he should be deported back to whatever bog hole he came from.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 3:34 am
Excellent article by Pearson. Many excellent points, not least the emphasis on Gillard’s cowardice.

I wasn’t aware the mines are prevented from commenting on the new mining tax until after the election process. Did I read that right?

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 3:42 am
Unfortunately he was born in Sydney, CL. He is currently living in Lebanon though.

Yobbo

4 Sep 10 at 5:57 am
“A new documentary on the causes and consequences of the US financial crisis has been making waves. “Overdose: The Next Financial Crisis” was produced by a team of filmmakers led by prominent Swedish libertarians Jonah Norberg and Martin Borgs.

The film has been broadcast in Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark and Australia – and won the prestigious ‘Best Feature Documentary’ award at the San Francisco Frozen Film Festival. Since the film debuted on the popular television series Four Corners on Australia’s public broadcaster ABC, it has incited a bit of an uproar among left-wing journalists.

The film relies heavily on interviews with Euro Pacific’s Peter Schiff, as well as a former US Comptroller General, a former Chief Economist at Freddie Mac, Economic Nobel Laureate Vernon Smith, and others. It’s a very interesting group that presents different perspectives on the factors that led to the credit crunch and where we are headed from here. Each one is realistic about the United States’ grave fiscal situation.

To dispel the myth that capitalism caused the crisis, the producers have decided to make the 45-minute film free to watch online, in full, for a limited time.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ECi6WJpbzE

Capitalist Piggy

4 Sep 10 at 8:10 am
“Many excellent points, not least the emphasis on Gillard’s cowardice.”

Oh please. Are you now pretending there was a way in which Gillard could have acted which would not have drawn criticism from you, CL? One minute she’s a bitch for taking away the public’s right to vote out Rudd, next she’s a coward for not confronting him earlier.

steve from brisbane

4 Sep 10 at 8:13 am
One minute she’s a bitch for taking away the public’s right to vote out Rudd, next she’s a coward for not confronting him earlier.

LOL. She didn’t ‘confront’ him at all. She was acting under orders.

By your own values, she was also a coward on the ETS – which she advised Kevvy to dump.

Then, as if that wasn’t enough, she admitted to being a coward during the election campaign when she said evil spin-doctors using anti-Real Julia mind rays stopped her from being herself.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 10:22 am
Shano has a good piece on the Abbott triumph.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 10:32 am
Unfortunately he was born in Sydney, CL. He is currently living in Lebanon though.

Ban him from re-entering the country, then, a la communist traitor Wilfred Burchett.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 10:36 am
ATO losers:

Tax operation struggling to find victims.

Had to laugh at the sterling work of a former ATO man:

One senior former ATO auditor, Chris Seage, turned the tables on the organisation, with his own audit on Operation Wickenby pointing to a $112 million black hole. Mr Seage, now a private tax consultant, said: “They spent $305 million on Wickenby until June 30 this year but only collected $193 million cash to the same point.” .

Wickenby was meant to bring in hundreds of millions in taxes evaded by high-profile Australians through tax havens like Vanuatu, the Cayman Islands and the British Virgin Islands…

“Who audits the tax office?” he asked, attacking the ATO figure that claimed to have raised “liabilities”, or tax assessments issued, of $855 million, despite only netting $193 million in cash.

“That is a $660 million discrepancy the government does not explain. I think the ATO is cooking the books. They are using these results to obtain substantial funding from the government.”

He has called for a full investigation by the Federal Auditor-General.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 11:22 am
CL

The ATO does this all the time. At the moment they are engaing in a major push on share options granted to senior executives. I have been through numerous taped, under oath interviews with clients for which the ATO flies in staff members from all around the country. The audits have been going on for a year, and I will be very surprised if they get anything out of it. It must be remebered that one the ATO takes a position and assesses a taxpayer, that taxpayer can then take the ATO to court 3 times out of 5 the taxpayer wins. The ATO then has to pay interest and costs, whilst the taxpayer’s costs are tax deductible. SO the ATO ends up losing more than it gains.

All the best tax lawyers work for private enterprise. SO the ATO is always on a hiding to nothing.

Rococo Liberal

4 Sep 10 at 11:33 am
Kid saved from the Cambodian killing fields, taken to America and becomes a Reagan Republican.

A Cambodian refugee and self-described Reagan Republican runs for Congress in the Bay State.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/09/03/from-the-killing-fields-to-the

JC

4 Sep 10 at 12:49 pm
Tremendous story. He’s just the kind of person Gough Whitlam was eager to keep out of Australia.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 1:22 pm
THR

Putting aside for one moment the chaps here, who consider Malcolm Turnbull to be a Trotskyist, I would suggest the election indeed was a shift to the centre-right, precisely because of the Greens’ performance.

I would argue that the leakage of Labor votes to the Greens pretty much represents the upper limit of left-wing sympathy in this country. Those who stuck with Labor are overwhelmingly Labor Right types, conservatives, or the very, very, very few diehard True Believers – mainly hacks and fools.

Given that the Greens primary vote was only about 10%, informal/no shows another 10%, we are left with nearly 80% are overwhelmingly not left-wing.

I think it is reasonable to deduce that 70% of the country swings to the right of the pendulum. Though I would say overwhelmingly they are pretty stable between straight down the line to the centre-right.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 1:40 pm
Terrific article on Austin Williams:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/sustainable-were-a-lot-smarter-than-that/story-e6frg6zo-1225914025010

A taste: “This negative view that we are nothing more than carbon excreters is an attitude I find reprehensible. I see humans as problem solvers, so the more people there are the more problems that will be solved and the better society will be.”

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 1:41 pm
PP, I agree and think this constitutes a problem for the ALP and an opportunity for the Coalition. The ALP-Green Coalition is going to make it harder and harder for those remaining with centre-right tendencies in the ALP to continue to support it and the Coalition has to, in some way, make it easier for those remaining the ALP to move across either directly or indirectly through some intermediary like a minor party.

dover_beach

4 Sep 10 at 1:47 pm
Rip-roaring start to life for this baby girl.

And quick work from mum and dad:

“It is believed the Wollongong couple were married yesterday…”

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 1:53 pm
DB

It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic. The electorate nudged ever so slightly to the right by all metrics and the liars party swings hard left.

You can’t make his shit up.

Jc..

4 Sep 10 at 2:00 pm
Can’t make a skerrig of sense out of this. Hmmm, guess, ponder … the stimulation was on the forehead, I’m wondering if this has anything to do with the trigeminals at all. Help! Second guess: this is crap.

http://www.physorg.com/news202715364.html

Non-invasive therapy significantly improves depression, researchers say
The stimulator that was used in the depression clinical trial is about the size of a large cell phone. Two wires from the stimulator are passed under the clothing and connected to electrodes attached to the forehead by adhesive. The electrodes transmit an electrical current to the nerve. All the patients in the trial used the device for approximately eight hours every night while asleep. In contrast to antidepressants, no major side effects were noted.

John H.

4 Sep 10 at 2:11 pm
Hawking throws in the towel on science, postulates undergraduate thesis to explain God away.

But in his latest work, Hawking cites the 1992 discovery of a planet orbiting a star outside our own Solar System as a turning point against Isaac Newton’s belief that the universe could not have arisen out of chaos.

“That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions – the single sun, the lucky combination of Earth-sun distance and solar mass – far less remarkable, and far less compelling as evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings,” he wrote.

Nobody ever said God created the universe “to please us human beings.” This hubristic science-as-ideology has been evident in cosmological physics for several years. This must be the dopey nadir.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 2:20 pm
Link:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/02/3001169.htm

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 2:20 pm
CL:

Genesis 1:26-27 says: “Then God said ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.’”

Whether you agree or disagree with Hawkings’ conclusion is irrelevant – to deny that anthropocentrism resides in all major religions is denial on the scale of THR, Homer and Steve of Brisbane-like proportions.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 3:04 pm
I think it is reasonable to deduce that 70% of the country swings to the right of the pendulum. Though I would say overwhelmingly they are pretty stable between straight down the line to the centre-right.

PP,

Both major parties were wooing voters in Western Sydney and QLD, whom they presumed to be ‘socially conservative’, hence the demonisation of asylum seekers and all the rest. This, in conjunction with the fervent News Ltd media tends to skew things, and makes the right seem bigger than it is, merely because it is louder.
Most Australians are not ‘fiscally conservative’, and I’d speculate that many would have supported the Rudd government shifting to the left in 2007-8 (rather than their shift to the right). On ‘social’ issues, like gay marriage or immigration, polling suggests that conservatism isn’t particularly strong.
In short, I read the current election result of as reflecting public cynicism toward both parties. It certainly wasn’t a shift to the centre-right, since the biggest issue underpinning the ALP’s collapse was probably the axing of Rudd.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 3:08 pm
o deny that anthropocentrism resides in all major religions is denial on the scale of THR, Homer and Steve of Brisbane-like proportions.

Pervades physics too – the anthropic principle. Hawking is just seeking relevance. In any event the “anthropocentric” criticism is something of a furfy because like der the point of religions to explain our place in the world.

I wish scientists would stay away from this shit. Mind their own bloody business. Same goes for economists and politics. Soon’s blog, Sick of Politics, is an attitude other economists should seek to emulate.

John H.

4 Sep 10 at 3:09 pm
Why should they stay away from it? If religion is removed from the public sphere then there might be an argument for scientists not refute it. If it’s a part of the public space then they have as much right to agree, disagree or whatever.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 3:12 pm
Why should they stay away from it?

Because I regard it as a category error of sorts. In any event as CL pointed out the argument being put forward by Hawking here is facile.

John H.

4 Sep 10 at 3:16 pm
Because you regard it as a category error of sorts. I see.

You see, that’s where I differ. I regard it as a key liberty that a scientist can comment on an issue that can impact negatively on continued rational inquiry.

The point isn’t facile. If a religion places earth and the human race at the centre of the universe (as Christianity does), then the discovery of life-bearing conditions outside of the solar system undermines that anthropocentric view.

That may be uncomfortable for you but it is hardly facile.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 3:20 pm
Hawkin’s argument has echoed through the centuries and doesn’t hold water. Think about it this way. A lot of scientists think that via QM and relativity we can arrive at a Theory of Everything. This is essentially a religious quest. Of late increasing numbers of physicists are repudiating the very idea of a “Theory of Everything”.

I was delighted when earlier this year two experiments vividly demonstrated quantum like effects at the “classical” level, these experiments being testament to the wonderful explanatory power of QM. However …

Lately there have been a series of experiments in particle physics which very strongly suggest that when observing particles in large interacting networks their behavior takes on properties quite independent of the known properties of those particles. That is, despite the power of QM, QM itself, and the whole approach in general, may be radically incomplete when examining larger interactions.

So when you hear physicists arguing that their research can explain away God, you might want to ask them why their physics cannot predict the behavior of particles in large interacting dynamics. To give you some idea of how difficult this all is, consider the research published earlier this year from the ANU. Nearly 100 years after Schrodinger they can finally predict the interactions of 2 electrons. Wonderful, only took 90 years to get past one electron.

I don’t care about the metaphysics of science. For me at least, science is about getting things done.

John H.

4 Sep 10 at 3:42 pm
You didn’t address the basic issue Hawkings raised, which challenges anthropcentrism, but instead discussed QM?

Obviously too facile to actually refute! He wasn’t discussing anything complicated at all – just the fact that the discovery of planets outside our system which may be inhabitable draws into question a common element in religious construction.

A basic point but basic does not mean facile. Sometimes basic is elegant. Especially when basic is too complicated for some to refute.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 4:00 pm
He goes from

But in his latest work, Hawking cites the 1992 discovery of a planet orbiting a star outside our own Solar System as a turning point against Isaac Newton’s belief that the universe could not have arisen out of chaos.

“That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions – the single sun, the lucky combination of Earth-sun distance and solar mass – far less remarkable, and far less compelling as evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings,” he wrote.

—–

To concluding you don’t need God to explain the universe? One example ends the argument? Give me a break. Go read Just Six Numbers by Sir Martin Rees then get back to me.

John H.

4 Sep 10 at 4:12 pm
THR

Firstly, you initial claim that the electorate had moved to the left was based on proportional voting patterns. I showed that by your own standards, in fact the opposite is the case.

Now, you unhinge your claim from identifiable electoral trends to wild assertions whose links to identifiable behavior or values are as solid as the links between daylight saving and faded curtains. This dodgy tealeave reading is made worse by your continued incoherent grasp of Australian society..

Both major parties were wooing voters in Western Sydney and QLD

Are you suggesting that voters in western Sydney and QLD should be ignored? May I suggest that in an electoral representative democracy, by definition elections will see more attention focused on those seats, which are less safe than others?

An ironic rejoinder to your thinking is that inner Sydney and Victoria are largely composed of uncritical Useful Idiots, who are so rusted on and ideologically blinded that no amount of persuasion will ever shift them. One of the characteristics of the bigot is a refusal to budge from long-held beliefs.

Whom they presumed to be ‘socially conservative’

You place “socially conservative” in scare quotes. Why?

“Hence the demonisation of asylum seekers and all the rest.”

OK, where were asylum seekers “demonised” in this election? What is the connection between being “socially conservative” and demanding asylum seekers be demonised?

We have been over your naivety and ignorance of life outside inner-city Melbourne so many times now; ESPECIALLY suburban Sydney, yet it never sinks in. As you have been told 1,000 times, the heart of multicultural Australia IS the suburbs of Sydney.

I’ll address your woeful and ill-conceived foray into economic policy anon.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 4:21 pm
There is nothing complex, remarkable or controversial in the conclusion drawn from the argument. I can only imagine that your reaction is due to it challenging your belief system.

I’m not here to destroy your faith, I just think it is poor form to claim an elegant observation is facile merely because it challenges your assumptions and is uncomfortable. It’s as intellectually dishonest as DC claiming he saved Australia from the GFC or Los Trios Ignoramus aligning with Labor despite their electorates.

Oh, and don’t tell me to go and read something and get back to you just because you don’t like that you can’t win this little discussion. Go shove it up your arse is my equally apt sentiment to your dismissive arrogant presumption. Go snap your fingers at a waiter somewhere else.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 4:22 pm
As I said, nobody – including the authors of Genesis – ever said that God created the universe “to please us human beings.”

Hawking has essentially capitulated – conceding under the guise of hubristic certitude – that neither he nor physics can explain God away.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 4:24 pm
I’m not making a case of god or stuff like, so I don’t want to turn into that sorta debate, but doesn’t Hawkings latest theory violate the first or second theory of thermodynamics which is about heat and energy.

Also did gravity just appear out of thing air under Hawkings?

JC

4 Sep 10 at 4:24 pm
CL if you can’t take away from Genesis the conclusion that Christianity is anthropocentric – without requiring the exact phrase “to please us human beings” then there’s clearly no discussion to be had because you reveal yourself to be be obstinate or obtuse.

JC – I addressed the observation that the discovery of environments that may support life outside the solar system as a challenge to an anthropocentric view – and the kneejerk response that this was facile. Clearly, if you acknowledge the anthropocentric construction of Christianity, Islam and Judaism – it IS a challenge and an uncomplicated one at that.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 4:31 pm
Firstly, you initial claim that the electorate had moved to the left was based on proportional voting patterns. I showed that by your own standards, in fact the opposite is the case.

Not at all. The combined vote of the centre-left parties (i.e. that ALP and the Greens) was about the same as last election. Most of the ALP’s vote leaked to the Greens, not the Coalition, which is why it’d be ridiculous to claim that this election was a win for the Centre-Right, at least, in polling terms.

One of the characteristics of the bigot is a refusal to budge from long-held beliefs.

What an idiot. By your definition, Patton, St Francis of Assisi is a ‘bigot’. You’re trying to forge some kind of equivalence between actual bigots and their opponents, and you’ve failed, miserably.

You place “socially conservative” in scare quotes. Why?

Both big parties presumed that the kind of ‘social conservatism’ that Western Syd/QLD voters were after involved ‘getting tough’ on asylum seekers, and making population a central issue. Whether these concerns are actually central to the thinking of said voters is beside the point.

What is the connection between being “socially conservative” and demanding asylum seekers be demonised?

As I was explaining, there’s no real connection between demonising refugees and social conservatism, but there is in the LCD ‘social conservatism’ that the big parties presume is the norm in marginal seats.

We have been over your naivety and ignorance of life outside inner-city Melbourne so many times now; ESPECIALLY suburban Sydney, yet it never sinks in. As you have been told 1,000 times, the heart of multicultural Australia IS the suburbs of Sydney.

Your attempt to refute my claims by way of pseudo-biographical inferences speaks volumes for your own bigotry and idiocy. It’s that sort of bile that got you bannd here in the first place. In any event, I can comfortably assert that I know Melbourne and Sydney better than you, and maybe a couple of regional areas as well. Perhaps you can point to the hordes of outer-suburbanites wanting the health system privatised, you dope.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 4:34 pm
It is facile, John, yes.

But not surprising.

Physics – I mean the populist cottage industry kind, designedly saleable – has been vectoring towards pompous pseudo-scientific definitiveness in cosmology for several years. There’s a kind of Dawkins-like anger there about the failure to obviate God. Dawkins’ solution appears to be an argument from authority (himself) strapped like a suicide vest onto the indifferent body of a straw dummy.

Fail.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 4:35 pm
Right-o.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 4:37 pm
Won’t acknowledge anthropocentrism… can’t refute the basic (elegant not facile) argument… resort to the atheism as a new religion trope.

Rhetorical caltrops in the path of progress.

Right-o.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 4:39 pm
Get the elephants CL

tal

4 Sep 10 at 4:41 pm
EV:

I’m not bringing a religious point of view on the comment I left. In fact I said:

I’m not making a case FOR god or stuff like, so I don’t want to turn into that sorta debate…

Which you then say:

Clearly, if you acknowledge the anthropocentric construction of Christianity, Islam and Judaism – it IS a challenge and an uncomplicated one at that.

I’ll repeat, my comment has nothing to do with god’s existence but to do with Hawking’s (our very own Dr. Strangelove) new theory and how it violates a law of thermodynamics to do with heat and energy etc. I’m too lazy to look up which one but I think it’s the first or second.

The other law it seems to violate is the law to do with gravitational pull.

The trouble with this area of science is that it seems to also have been taken over by doctrinaire bullshit artists like climate science and they’re fucking it all up.

That’s the only point I’m making.

Rather than being meek about what they know about the big bang these fuckers think they have it all down pat. They basically bullshitting.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 4:45 pm
oops they’re basically bullshitting.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 4:46 pm
I’m not even focused on it JC. Just putting a pin in the stupidity of trying to refute Hawkings by claiming that Christianity isn’t anthropocentric. Clearly, it IS.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 4:49 pm
I can only imagine that your reaction is due to it challenging your belief system.

I have no religious beliefs.

I told you to go read something because previously, as you have done now, you have insulted me. This occurred when I pointed out that research is showing a clear dose dependent, obesity independent, relationship between diabetes and POPs. You dismissed this as nonsense yet the evidence is all over the literature. So obviously you are someone who thinks they are that smart that they don’t need to read anything, to follow up and check your facts. You are the antithesis of what science is about. Your epistemology is appalling which isn’t surprising given you have the neural complexity of c. elegans and the dendritic density of aplysia and your cerebral cortex is little better than a pallium. Now piss off you incredibly stupid person.

John H.

4 Sep 10 at 4:50 pm
Here: that was easy.

Hawking violates this law.

The first law of thermodynamics, an expression of the principle of conservation of energy, states that energy can be transformed (changed from one form to another), but cannot be created or destroyed. It is usually formulated by saying that the change in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of heat supplied to the system, minus the amount of work done by the system on its surroundings.

How the fuck can you have Hawking’s theory of the big bang while violating this law.

You can’t.

I’m really fucking sick of being preached by these bullshit artists drawing down government paychecks all their adult life.

If Hawking can’t explain this violation, the fucker needs to pay back the part of the government pay cheque he used up writing the book… and I don’t care if he’s a wheelchair or not.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 4:52 pm
EV

Leave Christianity aside for a moment by pretending that you’re not mentioning when the next thing you do is mention it.

Answer how Hawking gets around the first law of thermo.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 4:54 pm
Diabetes? You need to pay attention. I insulted you for voting for the Greens. Read more closely – it’s not your strong point.

I think my choice of language was wrong, and I apologise for it. But I still think anyone who voted for the Greens is a rolled-gold fool.

“Your epistemology is appalling which isn’t surprising given you have the neural complexity of c. elegans and the dendritic density of aplysia and your cerebral cortex is little better than a pallium.”

Are we supposed to be impressed? Can’t refute a basic, elegant argument, so you leap for your scientific dictionary. No wonder you voted Greens.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 4:56 pm
and gravity too. How’s gravity figure in his theory. It’s just assumed in his theory but he keeps silent about that of course.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 4:58 pm
JC – your demand doesn’t logically follow from the issue I am discussing. Why is everyone making finger-snapping demands today? It almost seems like a… like a… a distraction.

Here, my turn:

Prove the existence of god. Go on. And while you’re at it make me a toasted ham and cheese sandwich.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 4:59 pm
Actually John, you may be right on the diabetes epidemic thing. Sorry about that – I was way over the top that day. I still think a vote for the Greens is a foolish waste.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 5:03 pm
See? What did i say. Your entire point was really about god, EV, while mine wasn’t.

I don’t have to prove the existence of God. I take the agnostic view in that if he want’s to prove his existence than he should go right ahead.

Leaving that aside because, as I said, my argument is about what Hawking has trumped up. The fucker is now violating actual laws of physics to argue his theory.

This getting to be truly fucked up. We seem to have an entire army of these science fuckers sucking on the public tit peddling their doctrinaire bullshit.

Hawking needs to pay back his salary and if the wheelchair was government supplied he needs to return that to the taxpayer.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 5:07 pm
Of course my point is about god (or rather about belief in general). It was sparked by CL’s post above in which he framed Hawkings thinking as hubristic and dopey.

And actually your point is about god too, if you’re honest, because your aim is to ridicule Hawkings to undermine his observation. Ask yourself what’s really motivating that? Surely not your innate love for hard science.

So Hawking needs to pay back his salary, I need to read a book that John chooses, you need to prove the existence of god and CL now needs to get me a Coke and a sandwich. Any further instructions?

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 5:17 pm
EV

My anger is with the entire academy, not just hawking. We’ve got an army of these twits peddling half baked theories or postulating doctrinaire positions for the comfort zone of the ivory tower.

Another example. We recently had Joe Stigliz over over peddling insulation and school dunny stimulus spending theory suggesting it was the best in the world.

This is the fucking idiot that masterminded the Fred and Fannie setup for the Clinton administration in the 90’s, cranking up the leverage to 125:1 until both entities finally hit the ground leaving the taxpayer with trillions of dollars in liabilities.

Not only does the fucker ignore his own responsibility in initiating government failure on a huge scale, but also he goes around the world trumpeting the ills of a capitalist system.

In the private world the fucker would excoriated to the extreme and would possibly face a jail sentence for helping set up such a ponzi scheme but not only doesn’t he face the music, but he also gets to be a celebrity.

Here’s a hedge fund manager trashing Stigliz with extreme prejudice in the only way he deserves.

From Hawking to Stigliz… a large number of these academic fuckers peddling bullshit need to be raked over the coals and asked to repay taxpayer dollars in the same way board directors are personally liable for bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4MAifsp-8E

JC

4 Sep 10 at 5:22 pm
You gotta love Hugh Hendry. LOl.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 5:24 pm
I’ve seen that clip before. Hugh Hendry kicking Steiglitz’s arse is an example of practice trumping theory. It’s the one thing policy-makers often overlook – reality.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 5:24 pm
oops….. from the comfort zone.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 5:25 pm
I think you’re wrong about Cosmology. Asking big philosophical questions is healthy and not harmful in the way that idle non-rigorous ideologically-driven economic theorising can be when it becomes policy before the sums are checked (a la Henry, Rudd and DC).

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 5:27 pm
Are we supposed to be impressed? Can’t refute a basic, elegant argument, so you leap for your scientific dictionary. No wonder you voted Greens.

Scientific dictionary my ass, I do have a good memory and rarely need recourse to such referencing.

Here’s the deal, if you insult me I will return it. If you discuss issues I will discuss issues. I do not like being an asshole but I can be a very powerful asshole.

John H.

4 Sep 10 at 5:29 pm
I’ve seen that clip before. Hugh Hendry kicking Steiglitz’s arse is an example of practice trumping theory. It’s the one thing policy-makers often overlook – reality.

Yea… in angry moments i watch it again. Lol.

Stligliz deserved worse. He deserved put up in front of congressional inquiry wearing a dunce cap and explaining how he helped fuck the American public of trillions of dollars and then having the hide to criticize market economics.

He deserves to die a pauper.. not for what he did as anyone can make mistakes, but for not showing any contrition for what he did and lying.

The academy is full of these freaking shonksters and I would rate Hawking as one because his new fangled theory does not go past some of the primary laws of physics.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 5:31 pm
Hey, that’s an idea JC. I hadn’t thought of that – allow academics to be hauled up for breach of duty and disqualified from teaching, publishing or appearing on TV for a period commensurate with the seriousness of the breach.
I reckon if you add sanctions, as for company directors, we’d get quite a large improvement in behavior very quickly.

ken n

4 Sep 10 at 5:35 pm
John, I’m sorry I called you a f******. It was wrong and juvenile of me. I must have been angry about something else that day, though that is no excuse.

I haven’t seen any evidence of your power here today but I will bear the warning in mind, lest my actions at some point in the future unleash the maelstrom of your withering power. Or power to wither. Or something.

Sorry about the stupid insult. I wish I could take it back.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 5:36 pm
Ev630

Thanks for the apology. It’s a blog so don’t sweat it. Here on the Cat insults are part and parcel of the game, but it is a game I hate playing.

John H.

4 Sep 10 at 5:37 pm
Gee, an apology, is that a first for this blog?
Well and honourably done Ev630.

ken n

4 Sep 10 at 5:38 pm
Ken, JC’s idea is a good one as applied to economics but fails as applied to esoteric areas like cosmology. If you could ban Hawking for not explaining what happened or existed before the big bang, then we’d also need to be able haul religious ideologues before the courts for failure to prove the existence of…

Eh, whatever.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 5:38 pm
Ken I’m sure it’s not a first nor will it be a last!

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 5:39 pm
Great idea, Ken. I’m freaking sick of these shonksters (not all) and it’s about time they were held to account for the shit they come out with.

Over here in oz for instance being paid consultancy fees by the government and then peddling supportive letters as experts without detailing potential conflict of interests.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 5:41 pm
PS:

Given the huge Greens win in the Senate I can no longer vote Green. I did not expect such a huge swing. Now I feel foolish because now I’m worried about their political power! I do not vote simply on ideology, I try to perceive these issues in a psychological\process frame.

John H.

4 Sep 10 at 5:43 pm
I’m not suggesting we ban anyone, EV. I’m suggesting that if he wants to peddle theories that violate laws of physics he should either explain why that law doesn’t apply to his theory or publish that shit using his own time and money and not allowing the title to be used. That’s all I’m saying.

We’re being held to ransom by all these doctrinaire bullshitters in the academy and it just doesn’t apply to economics it applies across the board and in all disciplines..

JC

4 Sep 10 at 5:46 pm
He’s wrangling with cosmological issues. The margin for error is huge. It’s also science – so it’s there to be challenged. Theories get challenged all the time.

Hence, I disagree. People shouldn’t be frightened to publish ideas for fear that idea may later be overturned and they may have to hand back their wheelchair due to the opprobrium. That’s be like playing soccer for Uday and Qusay Hussein. Not much fun at all.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 5:51 pm
“That’s be like…”? Aaaaarh. Be it post like a pirate day yet, lads?

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 5:53 pm
That’s be like playing soccer for Uday and Qusay Hussein. Not much fun at all.

lol. Although we could use a lighter version of the Uday and Quasay methods in climate science for a little while at least and certainly in economics

Perhaps not, but the current lack of standards and code that doesn’t seem to apply to the academy by does in the private sphere is sickening.

JC

4 Sep 10 at 5:59 pm
Yes, I agree. But doesn’t that speak to funding-driven agendas? The answer may not be to privatise but to increase subsidies. Or not?

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:13 pm
Ev360 – I guess it should only apply to areas where academics say things that people rely on. Economics, climate science, medicine..

ken n

4 Sep 10 at 6:15 pm
John H

Hawkin’s argument has echoed through the centuries and doesn’t hold water. Think about it this way. A lot of scientists think that via QM and relativity we can arrive at a Theory of Everything. This is essentially a religious quest.

So, so, SO spot on. In fact, physicists are little different from the medieval monks of scholasticism. Except rather than orienting their learning and research always to the laws of scripture held in the sky, the modern day physicist is the slave to the sky-held “Theory of Everything”.

Of course, this is hardly surprising, since both Christianity and modern day Physics are the heirs of the same intellectual traditions, particularly the same cognitive architecture. Their “missing link” has never been all that “missing though;” his name was Plato.

Both Christianity and modern-day Physics are in thrall to Platonic “forms”.

Hawking is like the Platonic character Timaeus, for whom all the known physical and its worldly properties were mere emanations of the why’s, wherefore’s, laws, for the higher machinations of the universe, which both created, and set in motion the conditions and laws whose results we see, hear, feel, taste, and smell.

Our physical world was crafted by Demiurge. It is the workings of God’s craftsman – The Demiurge – of which Physicists seek perfect knowledge; they call it “The Laws of Physics”. And just as Christians seek knowledge of “The One” – God – so too Hawking seeks knowledge of “The One” – theory of everything, whose hypothesized “Big Bang” set the Demiurge to work.

We see the Platonic “The One” and “Demiurge” all over the Greek Septuagint. Egypt’s Akhenaten is given a neoplatonic spit and polish that was hegemonic in Hellenistic Alexandria in the 3rd and 2 nd centuries BC, when the Septuagint was written. That neoplatonism emphasized less The Demiurge than The One.

“The One” emanates its creating power to the world, which underpins the construction of everything we human beings perceive and/or are cognizant of. This manipulation of “The One’s” emanations are created by The One’s ergon.

The modern Physicist is essentially concerned with discovering, understanding, copying, and manipulating The One’s ergon. Christianity provides a similarly Oriental spin on “The One” and “The Demiurge”

Thus we see in Christianity – which we must always remember was always an Oriental religion – the nous, in Christianity’s maxim’s “we are all made in God’s image;” ‘God is everywhere and in everything.’ Similarly, the Christian notion of the “soul” is also nous, with later Christians taking exception to the purer Platonic notion of the “world soul”.

It is perhaps on this “world soul” aspect of nous where Christians and modern-day Physicists part ways, and break another limb of the tree of knowledge. But the parting of ways is little more drastic than was the parting that led to modern humans and apes.

Whereas Hawking still subscribes to nous as “world soul” – the whole universe is inextricably linked both materially and by energy – the modern Christian insists of the soul being a peculiar quality of man, with the rest of “The One’s” creations – nous – existing for man’s use.

But both Hawking and Ratzinger agree that they live in a world whose bits and pieces were created by “The One’s” ergon</i. manipulating The One's nous

For Hawking to presume that a marginal observation of the ergon’s work is at once also a revelation of “The One” without needing to bother with The Demiurge is basically Hawking announcing that HE is “The One.”

Hawking is also saying there is no need to pursue The Theory of Everything, because he, Hawking, has morphed into Physics’ end-game – knowledge and mastery of the first-cause, the infinite, the ultimate, “The One.”

All kneel and pray to Our Father, Lord Hawking!

If that makes sense.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 6:21 pm
Science and religion stem from a desire to explain the world. True. But to say they are both religions is, ironically, facile.

Though I admit it has been a popular defense of faith in recent years.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:26 pm
“The debate that is happening, however, is not over Obama’s purported Christianity, but over whether he is in fact a Muslim. Coulter’s pals are debating this in the MSM all the time. That’s the embarrassing level to which political discourse has sunk in the US.”

Why is it embarrassing? Is this something you don’t think important? He didn’t run openly as a Muslim, whereas another fellow ran openly as a Mormon. In fact Obama denied that he was a Muslim, even though he had earlier changed his name to a Muslim name.

Surely this is a public interest matter if he has misrepresented himself.

1. You know that he was at one time a Muslim.
2. You don’t know what month he converted from being a Muslim. Its not in any of his biographies.
3. So what do you think you know that the rest of us don’t?

There is no use being delusional about what you do and don’t know here. What is the ideological coloring that is driving the quoted statement of yours? Again? Why is the debate you claim is going on, embarrassing? If he lied about his religion, and if people are lying about what they do and don’t know about this very dodgy individual, this is a matter of the public interest. Particularly as he is systematically destroying the US.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 6:32 pm
Obama was a muslim? Risible.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:33 pm
CL

Hawking did not say

“God created the universe was carefully designed just to please us human beings

He said “created the EARTH” “just to please us human beings”.

WTF!? How can ANY professor – let alone one at Christianity Central, Cambridge – think that anywhere in Christianity has God EVER designed things in obeyance to l’il ole us. Jesus, it wasn’t thal long ago that He was so disgusted with us, he tried to drown us all!

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 6:35 pm
Textual analysis isn’t your strong point I see. Let me guess, your response is and will always be, “Show me where it says in the bible that blah, blah, blah.”

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:40 pm
“How the fuck can you have Hawking’s theory of the big bang while violating this law.

You can’t.”

Exactly right. But they justify it by calling gravity “negative energy.” So because it works in mathematics that adding negative two to positive two goes to zero, these people, in their philosophical crudity, start telling you that these laws were not broken. You can get ex-nihilo creation since negative energy (gravity) plus energy cancels.

We have let philosophical illiterates take over cosmology.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 6:41 pm
Karl, we need to get you on the phone to Cambridge so you can set these fools straight. This can’t be allowed to continue.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:43 pm
John H

I wish scientists would stay away from this shit. Mind their own bloody business. Same goes for economists and politics.

Well, they are perfectly entitled to dig their oar in wherever they choose. But they invariably make total tits of themselves. Witness the train-wreck of Dawkins!

Similarly, I agree about economists. Academic economists invariably reveal an astonishing tin ear to real-time socio-political machinations, patterns, forces, and outcomes. Just check out the cringe-inducing catastrophe of prof Zombie “Australia and the US are now socialist” over the road.

Ironically, even worse on politics are Political Science academics!

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 6:43 pm
If he lied about his religion, and if people are lying about what they do and don’t know about this very dodgy individual, this is a matter of the public interest. Particularly as he is systematically destroying the US.

If the US Right (or Australian Right, for that matter) are obsessed with Obama being a muslim, then this is indeed an endumbening of political discourse, even worse than that which occasioned Clinton’s scandal with Lewinsky. If you wish to attack Obama, why not do so on the basis of policy, rather than supposed religious issues?

THR

4 Sep 10 at 6:45 pm
“Obama was a muslim? Risible.”

1. You know he was a Muslim.
2. You don’t know when he converted.
3. What is it you think you know that the rest of us don’t?

Saying the word “risible” is not a form of cognition. Even three times won’t make the spell.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 6:46 pm
I agree, THR. And the same standards should be applied to treatments of Abbott in the Australian press.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:47 pm
Karl how is this relevant to… anything?

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:48 pm
Well they aren’t obsessed with him being a Muslim THR. So thats really the end of your argument. But it would be a scandal nonetheless. That he had become President lying about his faith. Still people aren’t obsessing over it. They are probably more concerned with his systematically ghastly decisions. You don’t tend to obsess about things like this if you cannot get a job and you are seeing your country destroyed.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 6:49 pm
“Karl how is this relevant to… anything?”

How is what relevant to anything? THR brought the matter up. And he and you have been proven wrong, in that you imagine you know something you cannot possibly know.

Or if I take your question another way: Look to the top of this thread. You will see the words “open forum” there. But like I said THR brought the matter up. I showed his logic to be wrong and his presumed knowledge to be untenable.

Its a big thing to convert from Islam. Did you know that? Its a very big thing. Its not a conversion wherein you are going to forget the date of it.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 6:54 pm
Perhaps he’s afraid to admit it, because of extremists like you, Karl? Pity he doesn’t live in a country that’s non-judgmental and where religion is separated from government. Like America. Pity he can’t live in America.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:54 pm
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:55 pm
“Its a big thing to convert from Islam. Did you know that? Its a very big thing. Its not a conversion wherein you are going to forget the date of it.”

I [...yawn...] see. Please, go on.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 6:57 pm
Look here is the thing. By saying the word “risible” you claimed to know something you could not possibly know. Now you imply that you agree with me. You ought to probably admit you were wrong and move on to another subject. Its a potential scandal yes. But its not so important that we need dwell on it after you and THR have already been shown up in your presumption. His relentless attack on the financial integrity of the country is far worse. His despicable “health care” bill is more of a scandal. And so forth. But its certainly one scandal amongst many for this con-man.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 6:58 pm
Ev

Textual analysis isn’t your strong point I see.

You assert this on the basis of which weak textual analysis?

Let me guess, your response is and will always be, “Show me where it says in the bible that blah, blah, blah.

Response to what? Claims about The Bible? Religion? A particular religion? Physics? A particular individual’s claims about a religion and/or The Bible?

Sure, I’ll let you guess. But your current track record strongly advises you not to.

pssstttt…you’re not very good at it.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 6:59 pm
THR

Ah, now I know where your “argument” is from!

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/09/04/political-geographies-of-australian-globalism/

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 7:00 pm
“I [...yawn...] see. Please, go on.”

It really appears that you are not intelligent enough for this conversation. Now it is a big thing to convert from Islam. You cannot name more than three people who have done so. Its officially punishable by death within Islam. Its the ultimate heresy. But the more important point is that its not a thing the person who converted would ever forget. He would know the month. When was that month? You don’t know. Neither do I. We don’t know it ever happened. He’s written a couple of books about himself. Its not there in these books.

So we don’t know. You don’t know and neither do I. The preponderance of evidence would have him as a Muslim or somewhat lapsed Muslim. It seems very unlikely that he would be a Christian as he contends.

Its not the biggest scandal going around. But its a scandal nonetheless when coupled to the grave damage he is inflicting on the US.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 7:02 pm
You get a group of 1000 people and you listen to them speaking, you are probably going to find some of them a little weird. I guess my main point is that the tea party types are not a bunch of crazies at all. They are just normal human beings trying to make sense of their country being ripped apart before their very eyes. I don’t know where THR is coming from if THR is going to be so scornful of their speculations. Of course they are going to speculate about stuff like this. They are attempting to make sense of the destruction of their Republic. It all seems to be happening pretty fast and they want to know why.

Its like this criticism of that TV presenter who had that rally. Beck I think his name is. He’s not pretending to be some sort of great intellectual. He’s just like everyone wondering why his country is being destroyed from within.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 7:08 pm
“You assert this on the basis of which weak textual analysis?”

Things like this:

“Hawking did not say

“God created the universe was carefully designed just to please us human beings

He said “created the EARTH” “just to please us human beings”.

WTF!? How can ANY professor – let alone one at Christianity Central, Cambridge – think that anywhere in Christianity has God EVER designed things in obeyance to l’il ole us.”

Oh I don’t know, Peter, “the meek shall inherit the earth”, that passage from Genesis I posted above… things like that. If you don’t believe that Hawkings shorthand observation that religion is anthropocentric is correct, then perhaps you aren’t familiar with Christianity?

My track record is fine. Yours needs some maintenance.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:09 pm
This Hawkings issue reminds me of the Al Jazeera interview (on itija al mu’aqas ‘Facing the opposite’) where Wafa Sultan cites something from the Koran and the Imam she is debating tells her she is wrong because she used the wrong preposition and therefore the quote is not 100% accurate and he concludes she has no right to discuss the Koran.

Regardless of the fact that the exegesis was spot on!

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:14 pm
“You don’t know. Neither do I. We don’t know it ever happened. He’s written a couple of books about himself. Its not there in these books.

So we don’t know. You don’t know and neither do I.”

So we should stop right there, I think. It’s a non-issue.

“The preponderance of evidence would have him as a Muslim or somewhat lapsed Muslim.”

Uh-oh. There you go. Did you read the Snopes article?

I hardly think it fair for you to question my intelligence when you yourself appear to be in the grip of a florid psychosis – though the latter fact explains the temerity of the former event.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:18 pm
Born to parents, one half of whom were non-observant Muslim, makes one a Muslim?

If so, then only trivially so – so no scandal, right?

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 7:18 pm
Its not about God or no God. Its really just that Hawking has added nothing to any debate. He’s simply assumed that the big bang is the answer. I don’t know why this is news at all. This fellow is notable for being able to do maths in his head and for little else. He’s no serious philosopher.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 7:20 pm
3/5ths of fuck all to do with Hawkins bizarre ignorance. As least Wafa Sultan actually says what this “god” is and actually does quote from a scripture. The link with Hawkins is non-existent. What was that about “textual analysis”?

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 7:22 pm
“Born to parents, one half of whom were non-observant Muslim, makes one a Muslim?”

Who made this claim?

karl

4 Sep 10 at 7:22 pm
“I hardly think it fair for you to question my intelligence when you yourself appear to be in the grip of a florid psychosis – though the latter fact explains the temerity of the former event.”

You already showed that you were not intelligent enough for this conversation. Your claims to absolute knowledge about this matter were completely trumped. Thereafter you turned childish.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 7:24 pm
It’s the truth, not a ‘claim’.

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 7:24 pm
FDB

Ever heard of “Judaism”?

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 7:25 pm
“It’s the truth, not a ‘claim’.”

What is the truth. You are now claiming that such a situation would make a person a Muslim. You are the first person to say this.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 7:25 pm
Sure I have.

But we’re talking about Islam, right?

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 7:26 pm
“You are now claiming that such a situation would make a person a Muslim.”

No, I was assuming that you were making this claim.

Because apart from parentage, you have absolutely nothing to go on.

Right?

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 7:27 pm
I hope I don’t have to explain everything to you Peter. But here it is:

———-
Hawkins – says religion is anthropocentric. This is clearly shorthand for an analysis of the text and behaviours of the followers – examples seen in Genesis, etc. Hawkins is derided because his formulation does not appear in the bible verbatim and this derision is (incredibly) seen as disproving his observation by… the faithful.

Sultan – quotes accurately from the Koran but is derided and silenced because she used a passive participle instead of an active one, or some similar minor textual flaw, which showed she didn’t get it verbatim and this is seen as disproving her observation despite that he exegesis was 100% accurate.

Peter – failed to understand the analogy, needs to be shown where Hawkings words appear word for word in the bible (as opposed to acknowledging the validity of the general observation) and once again proves he lacks skills when it comes to textual analysis.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:29 pm
Hawking not Hawkins. My bad.

Karl – you’re clearly a loon.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:30 pm
“No, I was assuming that you were making this claim.”

You assumed in error FDB. He didn’t have anything to do with his Kenyan father. He only met him maybe once or twice. There is only one photo of him with his Kenyan father and that is at an airport for goodness sakes.

No-one said what you are claiming. But now you have confessed that you know nothing about this fellow, and yet I’ll bet you have some sort of feeling of absolute knowledge that he is not a Muslim. You simply have no reason to believe this if so. Certainly this was the presumption of total knowledge that THR and the other unpronounceable fellow started off with. Then EVEE got all snooty when his presumption to knowledge was shown to be wrong.

Make sure you have a handle on what you know and what you do not know. I certainly don’t know for sure he’s a Muslim. I don’t know that he isn’t. You are in the same position whether you believe so or not.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 7:36 pm
Ev

Did you even read my initial post on this topic? It so clearly shows that my take on religion, physics, Christianity, and Hawking, are the complete opposite of the rubbish you are posting here.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 7:38 pm
If the US Right (or Australian Right, for that matter) are obsessed with Obama being a muslim…

The only people obsessed with it are lefties talking about TEH right. That Obama was in fact a Muslim is a fact. Here’s his school enrolment form. Third entry, religion: “Islam.”

He says he was later baptised as a Christian by wack-job Jeremiah Wright and this is accepted by most people. It’s highly probable that most mainstream Christian churches may nevertheless have some doubts about the vailidity of the sacrament given the lunar heterodoxy of the ‘minister’ involved.

Far more bizarre is the US left’s doubts about Trig Palin being Sarah’s son. Trig trooferism is given a place of honour at no less an organ than the Atlantic. If there is a comparably respectable organ of the right which publishes material about Barack Hussein Obama being a secret Muslim week in and week out, I’d be interested to know which one.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 7:41 pm
Peter – did you ready anything I posted before I explained to you the Hawking/Sultan comparison? If you had, I wouldn’t have had to explain anything to you.

Regards
Ev

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:44 pm
Crikey peeps, just enjoy the Coulter piece.

It’s funny.

Its premise is that Barry is NOT a Muslim.

http://www.anncoulter.org/

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 7:44 pm
“Make sure you have a handle on what you know and what you do not know. I certainly don’t know for sure he’s a Muslim. I don’t know that he isn’t. You are in the same position whether you believe so or not.”

Would it surprise you to hear that I couldn’t give two fifths of a shit what religion a politician pretends to be, or secretly really is, or actually really is, or might be (we just don’t really KNOW for sure…)? As long as they govern with ABSOLUTELY NO REGARD for their religion, I’m pleased as punch on that score.

Whereas it seems to consume a lot of your emotional energy that ‘we’ don’t ‘know’ that he’s NOT a Muslim. Why do you even give a toss?

So I’ve got plenty handle. You’ve flown off it.

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 7:44 pm
ev

CL if you can’t take away from Genesis the conclusion that Christianity is anthropocentric

1. Er, far be it for me to give tips to mr. textual analysis, but pssssttttt…deconstruct your very own term – Christianity – and reconsider what is the REAL focus/centre of Christ ianity.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 7:45 pm
Uh-oh.

Has a phone cam-wielding punter caught Kevin Rudd buying a little deal sweetener for Rob Oakeshott?

Mmm.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 7:48 pm
PP – and the species to which Jesus Christ belonged was…?

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 7:48 pm
If God’s object is “to please us human beings” then why do even know who Christ was?

then perhaps you aren’t familiar with Christianity?

My track record is fine. Yours needs some maintenance.

ROFLMAO.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 7:48 pm
Ruddles has been in a good paddock.

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 7:49 pm
Peter – oh, right. So Christians have excised genesis from their Old Testaments? I didn’t get the memo.

You tricky, tricky man.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:50 pm
C’mon guys, what would Jesus do?

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 7:51 pm
LOL. Probably a rearguard action, with assorted rhetorical caltrops.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:52 pm
“Whereas it seems to consume a lot of your emotional energy that ‘we’ don’t ‘know’ that he’s NOT a Muslim. Why do you even give a toss?”

It doesn’t consume any of my emotional energy. But it appears that being proved wrong consumes a lot of yours. Why not simply learn things when you are shown to be wrong? Why get emotionally caught up in cognitive dissonance?

THR brought the argument up. EVEE bought into it. You bought into it. All three of you lost an argument that you bought into. Now you are getting shirty about it. People don’t know whether Islam is motivating this fellow to wreck things.

The idea, when you are proven wrong, is that you just admit it and move on. There is no need to dwell on this matter just so long as you realise you were wrong and learn from it.

Like I was wrong for example. I had not realised that he appears to have made the claim that he was converted to Christianity at the hands of Jeremiah Wright. So I learned something. Its not clear that you, EVEE or THR have learnt a thing. You have to understand the limits of your knowledge before you are capable of learning stuff.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 7:52 pm
“Ruddles has been in a good paddock.”

Sure has! I’m not sure what the big gotcha was meant to be in linking to a pic of him buying a childrens’ trinket at a school fete, but he could stand to steer clear of the doughnut van for a bit.

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 7:53 pm
“It doesn’t consume any of my emotional energy. But it appears that being proved wrong consumes a lot of yours. Why not simply learn things when you are shown to be wrong? Why get emotionally caught up in cognitive dissonance?”

Time to up the meds, Karl.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:54 pm
“So I learned something. Its not clear that you, EVEE or THR have learnt a thing.”

Untrue.

I have learnt that you are obsessed with Obama, in particular his religious beliefs.

Meanwhile, I continue to not give a shit about them.

Learning is fun!

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 7:55 pm
EVEE?

FTW?

Do I now have to call you Churl, Karl? Is that how low we must go, name calling?

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:55 pm
Ev

No, the Christians did not excise Genesis; but they did other early books. But that is not the issue. The issue is why is there even a New Testament in the first place?

Psssstttt….I’ll give you a hint. As you are such a Genesis fan, check out Books 6-9 of Genesis.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 7:56 pm
Karl, prefers Graeme. Or Bird.

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 7:56 pm
Peter, rhetorical, look it up.

Any further instructions from your end?

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:58 pm
IT – oh silly me. If only I had known Karl wasn’t a serious person 20 minutes ago instead of figuring it out in the last ten.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 7:59 pm
Ev

So. Once more now. What is the “centre” of Christianity?

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 8:00 pm
“But that is not the issue. The issue is why is there even a New Testament in the first place?”

Are you seriously sitting there thinking I didn’t understand the meaning of your post at 7:48pm?

You tricky, tricky man. What an amazing checkmate. In awe here. Absolute awe. Foiled again by your brilliance.

Now, seeing as Genesis is part of the Christian canon, move along from your Pyrrhic self-congratulations.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:02 pm
No you haven’t learnt that at all FDB. You haven’t learnt anything. You lost an argument. And you acted childish about it when you were proven wrong. As did EVEE. This is what happened. There is no point being in denial about it.

The idea that the tea party people are stupid because they speculate about things like this is a strategic marker for the left. They hit that one into the ground, and then use it to intimidate people if those people tell the truth about the matter.

The fact is you thought you knew he wasn’t a Muslim. You were delusional in this respect. How many other matters are you delusional about. And when you were proved wrong you acted like a small child. We would have to assume that this is the way you approach all matters.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:03 pm
CL if you can’t take away from Genesis the conclusion that Christianity is anthropocentric.

Indeed I can’t. What a bizarre argument. And a perfect illustration of what happens when hubristic physicists capitulate on the science and indulge instead in undergraduate arguments from authority and ideological egotism of Hawking’s kind.

Christianity is, by definition, Christocentric.

Creation itself was theocentric. It only became anthropocentric with the Fall.

As I said, nobody – including the authors of Genesis – ever said that God created the universe “to please us human beings.” If anything, it was created that we would please Him who created it.

You’d think an Oxbridge prof would be aware of such an obvious thing. It’s frankly embarrassing and I can only assume the ‘God is dead’ angle is being used to sell another best-selling cosmology destined for a life of unread leisure on the world’s coffee tables.

Hawking has essentially capitulated – conceding under the guise of hubristic certitude – that neither he nor physics can explain God away.

Fail.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 8:03 pm
The centre of Christianity is Christ – a human male.

The dogma underpinning Christianity is overwhelmingly human-oriented, including that the Earth was created for Man to hold dominion.

There is simply no discussion to be had about this scriptural fact.

Perhaps if you want to dispute it John, you could point us to a scriptural passage, old or new testament, that indicates otherwise? I’m familiar with many biblical contradictions, but I’m pretty sure both books are pretty consistent on this matter.

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 8:05 pm
CL, see here, per FDB:

“PP – and the species to which Jesus Christ belonged was…?”

Looks like you’ve had a “Smug fail post” fail.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:07 pm
“Do I now have to call you Churl, Karl? Is that how low we must go, name calling?”

You started the name calling EVEE. You were proven wrong and you couldn’t accept this and instead acted like a child about it. Clearly this matter is very important to you. Otherwise why did you engage in a topic that you knew nothing about?

Is it that you want to tell yourself you are superior to a tea party type?

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:07 pm
Just get the elephants CL, end of story

tal

4 Sep 10 at 8:07 pm
I don’t understand CL’s argument, but I think attempts to prove or disprove existance of god based on science are futile if not stupid. Contrary to some commenters here, I believe it is quite rare nowadays, and has become the domain of children.

It happens only with people who think too much of themselves. Which does happen to some very prominent scientists. They think their inellectual achievements transcend the boundaries…. Oh well.

Boris

4 Sep 10 at 8:07 pm
Its not clear that you, EVEE or THR have learnt a thing.

Okay. Assuming the Birdists are correct on this one, and Obama really is a Muslim (or a gay murderer, as has also been alleged). So what? Again, this is even more ridiculous than the Lewinsky beat-up of a few years ago. The question remains – why are some on the right so exercised by this issue? I can only conclude it’s because, for them, the term ‘Muslim’ in used interchangeably with ‘evil’, ‘sinister’, ‘terrorist’, etc. Exactly the same happens with the Right when they oppose Obama on health care – he then is called a ‘communist’, a ‘nazi’, and so forth.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 8:07 pm
“The fact is you thought you knew he wasn’t a Muslim.”

Where did I say that?

“You were delusional in this respect.”

No, because I never held the position you ascribe to me.

“How many other matters are you delusional about.”

Not this one, and no ‘others’ either.

“And when you were proved wrong you acted like a small child.”

No, I wasn’t proven wrong. And no, this is not how children behave.

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 8:09 pm
Karl, you’re not a very serious person and perhaps mentally unwell. Please stop addressing comments to me as I don’t like to pick on the vulnerable.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:10 pm
No no you are mentally unwell. Because you cannot accept when you are proven wrong, just to take this as new information. New knowledge. You are not up to this conversation at all.

Plus you started off from a clearly delusional position. You are not very smart EVEE. This is clear to one and all.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:12 pm
But you’re wrong Ev.

And you’re acting like a child.

Wrong, proved wrong.

Child, name-calling, child.

Wrong.

You see now?

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 8:12 pm
Holy shit. Crossed comments, but prophetic, no?

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 8:13 pm
“I don’t understand CL’s argument, but I think attempts to prove or disprove existance of god based on science are futile if not stupid.”

Agreed. But citing a scientific fact to point out the anthropocentric nature of a cult is a valid and worthy exercise if it encourages rationalism and skeptical inquiry in general.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:14 pm
“No, I wasn’t proven wrong. And no, this is not how children behave.”

Yes you were proven wrong, since you thought you knew that he was not a Muslim. When you knew no such thing. You ought to have accepted the new knowledge like a grown-up.

Somehow you are too mentally disturbed to let the argument go. It ought not have been an argument at all. You ought to have simply listened and learned.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:14 pm
uh-oh

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:14 pm
It seems the two of you are so mentally retarded and emotionally disturbed that you wish to get the last word in after being proven wrong.

What you ought to have done is simply accept that you were proven wrong and go forth with this new knowledge. This foolishness of stupid leftist types trying to get the last word in is immature and evidence of ill-health.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:17 pm
FDB – a concise summary of the routine currently being run on a closed loop by Churl.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:17 pm
Karl, you have no proof that Obambi is a muslim. Let’s just all agree that he is a Marxist arse bandit.

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 8:17 pm
Leftist types?

FDB, perhaps we should form a Left-Right coalition? We might no agree on economic, social and defense policy but BY GOD we abhor ignorance and seek to stamp it out!

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:20 pm
IT – that’s a good summary. I agree.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:20 pm
“What you ought to have done is simply accept that you were proven wrong and go forth with this new knowledge.”

Perhaps you could do this poor deluded dolt, this confused and naughty child, the favour of explaining how I’ve been proven wrong, and on what matter of fact? I mean, godlike intellect though you are, casting your diamond gaze hither and yon over matters of nothing less than cosmic import, surely you can spare the time to assist such a worm as me to improve myself.

Pretty please?

“This foolishness of stupid leftist types trying to get the last word in is immature and evidence of ill-health.”

…he says, utterly unaware of the screaming irony.

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 8:22 pm
“Karl, you have no proof that Obambi is a muslim. Let’s just all agree that he is a Marxist arse bandit.”

Right there is evidence that Obama is a Muslim. But its not conclusive. Since after all we lack the ability to read minds and so forth. What exactly is your point?

You don’t want to let these two get away with being proved wrong and then getting all shirty about it? They are not going to let this business go until they get the last words in. This is the mental ill-health of these people. But if you have wondered why they always win, well here is part of their secret.

Be proved wrong but turn it into a win by way of endless filibuster. When you get someone like EVEE and FDB pulling that, instead of being gracious about being better informed, then there really is no help for it but to kick them off ones forum.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:22 pm
Jesus, it actually IS Bird, trying to hide it.

So cute!

Okay then, back to my do-not-respond-to-Bird resolution.

FDB

4 Sep 10 at 8:25 pm
Karl and CL are right – there is strong evidence that Obama was a Muslim when he was younger, with his faith entered as “Islam” in his school enrolment form. Was his mother lying about that? Probably not, no. Whatever his beliefs now, he was certainly a Muslim in his early years. And from time to time he does say things that suggest he may be a Muslim, although they could also be genuine slips.

For example, there was this:

At least as troubling are what amount to instances of presidential dawa, the Arabic term for Islamic proselytization. For example, Mr. Obama referred four times in his speech to “the Holy Koran.” It seems unimaginable that he ever would ever use the adjective to describe the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

Then, the man now happy to call himself Barack Hussein Obama (in contrast to his attitude during the campaign) boasts of having “known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed.” An interesting choice of words that, “first revealed.” Not “established,” “founded” or “invented.”

And before that there was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8M&feature=related

Michael Fisk

4 Sep 10 at 8:26 pm
I couldn’t give a hoot where he thinks he’s spending the afterlife, my truck is that the arsehole is buggering the present. Whether he was born in Kenya or worships Muhammad is irrelevant and it distracts from the man’s very proveable shortcomings and utter utter bastardry.

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 8:27 pm
Bird, you shouldn’t have used the word “filibuster”. It was too obvious.

Michael Fisk

4 Sep 10 at 8:28 pm
What many conservatives don’t realise is that letting immature leftist types get away with this sort of behavior, rather than simply accepting new knowledge with good grace, well by doing this the conservatives are building a hole for themselves.

For conservatives to allow FDB and EVEE to get away with this means always letting them win the debate in the eyes of the public, without them needing to ever be informed, right, or logical.

You see it is like the air you breathe. The leftist insistence in getting the last word in, whether they are correct or not, is so ubiquitous, that when someone stands up to this childish and annoying habit of theirs, the immediate reaction is to think it is the challenger, rather than the leftist perpetrators, who are acting in some sort of anti-social way.

Consider the topic that once was at hand. The idea that he might be a Muslim. Well this is routinely used as a putdown of tea-party types. Now we have seen the immense overhead that you have to go through, should you stand up to this leftist strategic plank. Why put someone down for valid speculation? The reason is it makes every other conservative put their head down and behave. So this is the way they manipulate the rest of us, though clearly they are inferior as human beings, and not fit for any sort of debate at all.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:34 pm
FDB

The centre of Christianity is Christ.

Well done; at least phonetically. But it kinda doesn’t really get us very far with Professor Hawking, does it? After all, he says “God”. So we are not seen as too churlish, let us adopt the pose of Hawking, Ev, and YOU, and assume said God is the creator of Abraham and his sons.

– a human male

Well certainly some of the descendants of the Sons of Abraham believe. But Christians? Not so much.

So, what exactly was it about Christ that resulted in this thing we call Christianity, which Professor Hawking, Ev, and FDB agree is a belief system which has God creating the earth for man’s enjoyment?

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 8:37 pm
“I couldn’t give a hoot where he thinks he’s spending the afterlife, my truck is that the arsehole is buggering the present. Whether he was born in Kenya or worships Muhammad is irrelevant and it distracts from the man’s very proveable shortcomings and utter utter bastardry.”

But this is neither here nor there. The point is that under the slightest social pressure you bailed out and wanted me to let these dopes get the last word in, rather than graciously accept their own manifest idiocy.

How do you think these mentally-retarded mindless ideologues are managing to wreck everything good in this world. We are letting them behave like pigs. I expect some sort of solidarity when the stakes are so high.

Now don’t let them do it. Why do you suppose that no issue can be resolved. Well it doesn’t help if you let them get the last word in and pussy out under their pressure and pack-instinct.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:40 pm
Peter, your Socratic method is tiresome, obvious and also pointless.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:41 pm
Let me give you a hint. The answer is seen every day iconographically – even in 2010 – in the hundreds upon hundreds of millions of insignias representing the ancient Greek letter Chi and Rho.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 8:41 pm
Fuck off, Karl, you’re boring us.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:42 pm
No you fuck off EVEE. And seek medical attention. You are an idiot.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:44 pm
Peter, your Socratic method is tiresome, obvious and also pointless since it does not impact on the fact that Christianity is anthropocentric.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:44 pm
If the issue can’t be resolved it’s because short of Ofucktard flying around the Washington Monument on a magic carpet whilst stuffing the Koran up his arse, we’ll never really know. You need to fight the good fight on readily contestable fronts.

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 8:44 pm
No, you fuck off Karl. And get me a ham sandwich before you go, bitch.

Hope this helps,

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:45 pm
We see here that EVEE is mentally not qualified to discuss anything at all like a grownup.

If he were mature enough to speak about any subject at all he would have simply accepted being better informed with good grace.

Fuck off EVEE. Your self-image is a lie.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:45 pm
You are impervious to reason. Discussion is wasted on you Karl. Chutney on the sandwich, please.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:47 pm
Oh no Tiger you’re in fatwah territory

tal

4 Sep 10 at 8:47 pm
This argument happened simply because EVEE and FDB were not capable of discussing any subject at all in a logical and mature way.

You still here EVEE? What possible benefit do you imagine in your little mind that you can be to this blog?

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:47 pm
No EVEE. It was you that were shown to be impervious to reason. And delusional in your presumed knowledge. When you were presumed wrong you simply went all poopy-pants about it. And now you are going the thread-wrecking route. Simply because you could not bear to be proven wrong when it came to a strategic leftist plank.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:50 pm
PP – and the species to which Jesus Christ belonged was…?

Yes, folks. You heard it here first.

Christians don’t worship Christ, True God and True Man.

They in fact worship Home sapiens.

Note well the bizarre casuistry being deployed to defend Hawkings’ embarrassingly dumb argument.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 8:50 pm
Tal, if I die without receiving a fatwah, my life has been incomplete.

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 8:50 pm
if Hawking’s hadn’t been a cripple, no one here would have heard of him.

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 8:51 pm
“Note well the bizarre casuistry being deployed to defend Hawkings’ embarrassingly dumb argument.”

Note well the sophistry employed to avoid acknowledging the truth!

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:51 pm
No EVEE. It was you that were shown to be impervious to reason. And delusional in your presumed knowledge. When you were proven wrong you simply went all poopy-pants about it. And now you are going the thread-wrecking route. Simply because you could not bear to be proven wrong when it came to a strategic leftist plank.

Now have you had enough. Because I’d rather prefer that you just shut up about this subject, talk about other things, or go away.

Cease trying to get the last word in. You were proven to be wrong, childish, and a moron to boot. I’ve been trying to lose this subject for half a page but your assholery won’t let it go. You are holding onto this business like a hundred dollar bill clenched between your anally-retentive ass-cheeks.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:52 pm
Ahura Mazda what a little bitch this EVEE insect is. If he were a man about it he would have thanked me for leaving him better informed.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 8:55 pm
PP – and the species to which Jesus Christ belonged was

Well, given that “species” did not become a feature of taxonomy discourse until long after Christ ascended to the Heavens (HINT! HINT! Boys), I dare say Christ did not belong to ANY species.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 8:57 pm
Comment of the day:

The dog’s like “I know this was meant to be joke, but I’m not so sure anymore”.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 8:57 pm
I certainly am better informed. I now know not to take anything you say seriously, my conspiracy theory-obsessed little friend.

Couple of sandwich pickles with the sammich, amoeba.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 8:58 pm
Well, that’s possibly a factor, Tiger. It costs a lot of money to keep Hawking in physics. Populist tomes for the Kramer coffee table set undoubtedly help.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 9:00 pm
“If the issue can’t be resolved it’s because short of Ofucktard flying around the Washington Monument on a magic carpet whilst stuffing the Koran up his arse, we’ll never really know. You need to fight the good fight on readily contestable fronts.”

It may not be important in and of itself, but its a strategic leftist plank that the left can use to shame conservatives or anyone who can think for themselves.

But as far as this thread is concerned, the main point is that you wimped out and took a shot at me to try and end the filibuster, rather than at EVEE or FDB. I simply informed them. And there was no good cause for them to start a filibuster over it or to put me down when I was right and they were wrong.

Thankfully FDB has buggered off. But it would have been better if everyone had kicked EVEE in the head and got him to shut up and act like someone who was now better informed. Instead of allowing or encouraging him to act like a little bitch.

By allowing yourself to be manipulated like this, you allow the left to strategically win all battles, even though they are manifestly idiotic in their various goals and secular-religious beliefs.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 9:01 pm
PP. Is that supposed to be some sort of Balestra?

Hint: tedious, old chap, tedious.

Right-o lads. Mid afternoon here in the middle east so I’m off to prep something for dinner. When I hear the call to prayer at ‘asha I’ll be thinking of you, Karl, as I sup my Margaret River Cab Sav.

Until tomorrow!

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 9:02 pm
“I certainly am better informed. I now know not to take anything you say seriously, my conspiracy theory-obsessed little friend.”

See that. Proved wrong utterly and the little bitch still hasn’t learned a damn thing.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 9:04 pm
One last one, as I just saw this:

“Thankfully FDB has buggered off. But it would have been better if everyone had kicked EVEE in the head and got him to shut up and act like someone who was now better informed. Instead of allowing or encouraging him to act like a little bitch.”

Nasty little piece of Whisky Tango, aren’t you?

“By allowing yourself to be manipulated like this, you allow the left to strategically win all battles, even though they are manifestly idiotic in their various goals and secular-religious beliefs.”

Why do you assume that only those of the Left are engaged in skeptical inquiry and rational thought? Hint (as Pete Patton likes to say): FDB and I would make strange bedfellows!

I’ll be thinking of you as they say the ash-hadhuuuuuu!

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 9:05 pm
Ev

As you are in the middle east, why not pick up a copy of Genesis for a quick squiz before falafel? And for a Pareto optimal grasp of Christianity, God, and the creation of the universe, just catch the first sentence of the Gospel of John. Pssstttt…grasping the logos will set you free, you Icharus of the sand dunes, you.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 9:06 pm
He he. Right, adieu!

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 9:07 pm
Hawking’s was also a lecherous philanderer and would have been called out, except that his disability somehow made it “endearing”.

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 9:08 pm
The graph that kills Keynes.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 9:09 pm
Great. That tedious little prick has gone. Now I can hopefully leave this topic finally and get some sleep.

You have to understand that these threads go on like this in filbuster mode, simply because the parties who are now better informed (ie proven wrong) simply don’t want to accept this in good faith. Both the little bitch EVEE and FDB sought to put me down, once they knew they had lost the argument. Then EVEE backed out of his knew knowledge, and sorted it that he didn’t learn a thing.

If it wasn’t a Saturday night there would have been an entire jackal pack of these childish assholes keeping the filibuster going around the clock.

This is how their antecedents taught you every wrong thing you thought you ever knew at school. Everything you think you know is wrong.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 9:10 pm
Wrong CL. Nothing can Keynesianism. The answer to any adverse result is always more Keynesianism.

Infidel Tiger

4 Sep 10 at 9:11 pm
Hark! Did I hear the faint but sonorous sussuration of a half-hearted bout of flatus? No, it was just Karl impersonating fecal coliforms.

Keep it down, Karl, you cretin. I’m preparing fresh produce here.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 9:15 pm
“I wish scientists would stay away from this shit. Mind their own bloody business. Same goes for economists and politics. Soon’s blog, Sick of Politics, is an attitude other economists should seek to emulate.”

The problem is celebrity economists selling ideas and dumb politicians like Tanya Pilbersek who believes that less homes and smaller homes will solve the affordability crisis.

.

4 Sep 10 at 9:17 pm
Ground Zero Mosque Imam says that the only way to achieve peace in the Middle East is to destroy Israel. Apparently this guy is a “moderate”.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/ground-zero-mosque-imam-rauf-in-a-true-peace-israel-will-in-our-lifetimes-become-one-more-arab-count.html

Michael Fisk

4 Sep 10 at 9:18 pm
Ev

No doubt you own contributions thus far are mere fluffs compared to what you shall contribute a few falafels? We wait wait bated breath!

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 9:18 pm
True true, Tiger. We’ve learned that from our old and dear friend, Homer.

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 9:18 pm
dot

Blogging technology is largely responsible for this confederacy of dunces.

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/09/04/political-geographies-of-australian-globalism/

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 9:19 pm
If it wasn’t a Saturday night there would have been an entire jackal pack of these childish assholes keeping the filibuster going around the clock.

Why aren’t you over at David Icke’s site, Karl, proving how Obama is really a fractional reservist reptilian?

THR

4 Sep 10 at 9:20 pm
Karl

FDB’s alright. You have to forgive his – more than – occasional acid flash-back.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 9:22 pm
“Hark! Did I hear the faint but sonorous sussuration of a half-hearted bout of flatus? No, it was just Karl impersonating fecal coliforms.”

Its a powerful argument that you bring forth here EVEE. Straight out of your behind. This is the best you have to offer by way of logic, and it has never gotten better than this.

Lo, we find THR has entered into the picture. A third little bitch who cannot accept when he has been proven wrong.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 9:29 pm
All that chart says is they got their forecasts wrong. As did the IMF and the Fed etc.

sdfc

4 Sep 10 at 9:30 pm
Karl, you chucklehead, two questions:

1. Why are you so worked up about Obama being a Muslim? Who cares?
2. Are you equally concerned about Obama faking his birth certificate, or murdering his gay lovers at his local church?

THR

4 Sep 10 at 9:34 pm
THR, read that the little one is teething, good luck darl

tal

4 Sep 10 at 9:37 pm
Thanks tal!

I think the worst is over (for now). There were a few nights that weren’t exactly restful.

How goes it with you? And what’s with the references to elephants? What ever happened to pandas?

THR

4 Sep 10 at 9:39 pm
“1. Why are you so worked up about Obama being a Muslim? Who cares?”

I’m not worked up about him being a Muslim. Just admit you were proven wrong. You were the one who started this debate with your stupidity, and here you are continuing with the same subject, even though you’ve been proven wrong.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 9:43 pm
My debate, chucklehead, was that the right-wing focus on Obama’s alleged Muslim heritage (and all the other birther crap) was evidence that political discourse was taking a nosedive. You’re yet to refute that thesis.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 9:45 pm
“CL, that’s a characteristically idiotic article by Coulter. She questions whether Obama is a ‘real’ Christian. Well, fair enough. Let the theologians debate it. The debate that is happening, however, is not over Obama’s purported Christianity, but over whether he is in fact a Muslim. Coulter’s pals are debating this in the MSM all the time. That’s the embarrassing level to which political discourse has sunk in the US.”

A stupid comment don’t you think? Since the evidence is mixed, tends to point to him being a Muslim, the people are seeing their country ripped apart and are right to speculate on the reasons for this.

Now just admit you were wrong and stupid and move on.

Or can you not move on from this subject. You seem obsessed.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 9:46 pm
“if Hawking’s hadn’t been a cripple, no one here would have heard of him.”

I’d dispute this. My observation is that people on catallaxy are not that ignorant and would have heard of one of the greatest physicists of our time. I agree that his disability has increased the media attention, but far more was done by popular books he has written.

This does not in any way justify his remark on religion, which, in my view, was silly and childish.

Boris

4 Sep 10 at 9:46 pm
Pandas(useless lumps of shite) are still on the hit list.Ask Cl about the elephants, he knows how it get the links about how it started.
I’m fine thanks

tal

4 Sep 10 at 9:46 pm
“My debate, chucklehead, was that the right-wing focus on Obama’s alleged Muslim heritage (and all the other birther crap…..”

Other crap?

So you’ve been proven wrong but you just cannot let it go.

What is it you think you know? I showed earlier that your alleged knowledge was delusional. You have to be pretty obsessive to be holding on so tightly to these delusions.

Now people are right to speculate about these things. He is ruining the US and its only natural for people to wonder why.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 9:48 pm
A stupid comment don’t you think?

No. Read the Coulter article. She tries to shift the debate to the question about whether Obama is a ‘real’ Christian. This is irrelevant, since the debate the cranks are having is whether Obama is Marxist Muslim, who faked his own birth certificate, usurped the Presidential chair, and murdered his own grandmother (and gay lovers).

Now, where do you stand on these key issues?

THR

4 Sep 10 at 9:48 pm
I don’t know why there should be any angst even if Obama is a Muslim, after all Islam and Christianity are are basically just different sects of the same religion

sdfc

4 Sep 10 at 9:50 pm
Pandas(useless lumps of shite) are still on the hit list

They’re pretty chubby creatures. They’d probably go nicely with a bit of hoi sin sauce.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 9:50 pm
Boris

It is fascinating to watch such brilliant physical scientists, as Hawking and Dawkins, potentially trashing their live’s work and legacy by being bitchslapped over religion and theology.

The irony of their tombstone being written by such a religious concept as hubris.

R. Dawkins/S. Hawking

“Prominent Atheists”

R.I.P.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 9:52 pm
Shh THR PETA will have you skinned alive for that sort of talk

tal

4 Sep 10 at 9:53 pm
See you are stil in denial THR. You made a stupid comment. You were proved wrong. And you still won’t accept that you don’t know whether Obama is a Muslim. He grew up most of his early life as Barry Soetoro. He grew up a Muslim. He saw fit to go back to his Muslim birth name. He ALLEGES that he became a Christian under Jeremiah Wright. You believe this?

One has to accept this as a possibility and I do accept this as a possibility.

The fact is that your attitude was arrogant, wrong, and ignorant. And you refuse point blank to let go of this ignorance.

You cannot just turn this on and off THR. You have to accept that all your ideas must be in error, given your manifestly delusional way of making up your mind about things.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 9:54 pm
He ALLEGES that he became a Christian under Jeremiah Wright.

I couldn’t give a flying whether Obama converted to Hinduism under Ravi Shankar. To even debate such things, as you have, is to descend to the political level of NW mag.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 9:56 pm
I believe Rev Manning thinks Obama is a muslim,Karl

tal

4 Sep 10 at 9:57 pm
Sorry that should be Pastor manning

tal

4 Sep 10 at 9:59 pm
“I couldn’t give a flying whether Obama converted to Hinduism under Ravi Shankar. To even debate such things, as you have, is to descend to the political level of NW mag.”

So what. You’ve lost the argument, and now you are changing the subject.

The fact is you’ve been proven wrong, and yet you are so flagrantly delusional that you haven’t learnt anything. Now you are going the same route as FDB.

Having been proven wrong, and being an emotional retard, you say you don’t care about the subject you have been proven wrong about.

However if you weren’t a little bitch you would simply accept the new knowledge like a grownup.

Now this dysfunction hasn’t come upon you just his night. So clearly all your ideas and beliefs reflect your manifest delusional thinking.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 10:02 pm
So clearly all your ideas and beliefs reflect your manifest delusional thinking.

You’re right – anybody who doesn’t think that Obama’s religious status ought to be the centre of debate is clearly delusional.

Pray tell, you obviously think this particular delusion is just a fractal-style microcosm of a broader pantheon of lunacy, so perhaps you could shed some light on that?

THR

4 Sep 10 at 10:04 pm
“My debate, chucklehead, was that the right-wing focus on Obama’s alleged Muslim heritage (and all the other birther crap….”

See that. Delusional. Proved wrong utterly and has not learned anything new. There would not be a single subject this irrationality does not attach itself to.

“I believe Rev Manning thinks Obama is a muslim,Karl”

Anyone who lives in Harlem gets used to telling Muslims and non-Muslims apart. Plus the evidence, on-balance, would suggest that he were Muslim.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 10:07 pm
You’re filibusting, Karlie, on whether Obama is a gay Marxist who murdered his own grandmother. Now make with the evidence, or retract and apologise.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 10:09 pm
“You’re right – anybody who doesn’t think that Obama’s religious status ought to be the centre of debate is clearly delusional.”

Yes you are delusional and you are keeping his religious status at the centre of debate. Whereas if you weren’t delusional you would have accepted that you were wrong with good grace and learnt something from it. As things stand you are determined to continue with your delusion, and there is absolutely no evidence that you’ve learnt anything.

Clearly you are an idiot. And all your ideas and beliefs are without merit.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 10:10 pm
Just answer the question, Karl von Vogel.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 10:12 pm
There is no point continuing onto new subjects with someone who is quite clearly delusional about his presumed knowledge of Obama’s religious beliefs.

Here you are claiming outright that Obama isn’t a Muslim. Clearly you are an idiot. And it won’t just be this subject that you are an idiot about. You cannot just turn the stupid off and on.

Now admit you were wrong and stupid and move onto yet easier subjects. You were proved wrong right from the start. And yet this subject appears too difficult for you.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 10:14 pm
There is no point continuing onto new subjects with someone who is quite clearly delusional about his presumed knowledge of Obama’s religious beliefs.

This is a cowardly filibuster. Your fixation with Obama being a Muslim is a gateway delusion to your broader conspiracy about Obama being a gay Marxist, who faked his own birth, and keeps his dead grandmother’s corpse in a basement.

Now, that evidence, please.

THR

4 Sep 10 at 10:16 pm
Once again you have not come clean about your delusional nature. Why come on blogs when we have proved point blank that you are delusional?

You claim outright, that you know for a fact that Obama is not a Muslim. Clearly this is a delusional belief on your part. How can you possibly be competent to go onto other subjects when you have no intellectual capacity to handle this one?

You cannot be competent in this way. We will see you are delusional in all things.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 10:17 pm
Tal, are you still angry with the loveable Pandas?

C.L.

4 Sep 10 at 10:17 pm
You cannot be competent in this way. We will see you are delusional in all things.

I’ll bet you anything you like, in the currency of your choice, that Obama being an alleged Muslim is utterly irrelevant to US politics.

How will you bet? In liquid coal?

THR

4 Sep 10 at 10:19 pm
So we have had three little bitches who cannot accept reality with good grace. Three unmanly little girly-men, not competent to debate anything at all. Three obsessive pricks. And they are regulars. And you all must let them get away with spraying their delusional natures over the pages of Catallaxy day after day after day.

This is why the left win all the time. You let them get away with this stuff. Yet these are morons. Loony-tunes. Mentally deranged misfits.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 10:20 pm
“I’ll bet you anything you like, in the currency of your choice, that Obama being an alleged Muslim is utterly irrelevant to US politics.”

You may be right for a change. But its not irrelevant to you. You are obsessed with the matter. You were proven wrong right from the start, yet you haven’t learnt anything, you are still in denial, and you refuse point blank to let the matter go.

Clearly you are deranged. You would probably be better off locked up and pumped full of drugs.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 10:23 pm
Damn straight Lad,dolphins are my next target(that gong smoking tatt you put up the other day swayed me)

tal

4 Sep 10 at 10:25 pm
Okay Karl, you win.

Let’s change the subject, shall we?

What do you think of our banking system?

THR

4 Sep 10 at 10:26 pm
NO!!! Oh please not banking

tal

4 Sep 10 at 10:29 pm
Good. Its great that you have moved on. I’m not convinced that you have learnt anything. But I’ll take your word for it. But clearly your methodology would not have healed itself overnight. So nothing could be more pointless then discussing more complex matters with you when it took so damned long for you to accept reality when it came to such simple stuff.

Look how much time of mine you have wasted already by you being a delusional poopy-pants little bitch? Its not as if I want to be wasting another block of time on a range of subjects, none of which you are competent to discuss.

karl

4 Sep 10 at 10:31 pm
What do you think of our banking system?

Clearly run by a cabal of Christ-killers.

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 10:31 pm
Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 10:31 pm
Oh PP thanks mate,you had to go there

tal

4 Sep 10 at 10:41 pm
tal

If you’re gonna troll, do it right!

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 10:46 pm
Peter,pet, my trolling clothes at at the cleaners

tal

4 Sep 10 at 10:57 pm
Oh, honey, I AM the cleaner!

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 11:01 pm
Peter, you are just shameless this evening

tal

4 Sep 10 at 11:09 pm
Not really. Just available. Same, same, really!

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 11:11 pm
My grandmama always told me, “take no prisoners, darl”!

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 11:11 pm
Wise women, your nanna

tal

4 Sep 10 at 11:14 pm
My grandpa said “when they start slappin’, remind them the bitch is back!”

Peter Patton

4 Sep 10 at 11:16 pm
Peter!!!! These is no need to talk about nanna Patton like that

tal

4 Sep 10 at 11:22 pm
“This is why the left win all the time.”

It will indeed if you keep confusing me with a Leftist, you cretin. You clearly have a mind like a Moebius strip. Rewind, fastforward, pause… it’s all the same tiresome crap with you, motherfucker.

Peter, no felafel tonight. Tonight it’s chicken rendang.

Ev630

4 Sep 10 at 11:27 pm
EV630, did you have a nice dinner?

tal

4 Sep 10 at 11:35 pm
Birdie:

You when the site owner finds out it’s back to the bird cage, right?

JC

5 Sep 10 at 12:07 am
Have we got a government yet?

tal

5 Sep 10 at 12:16 am
Tal, just finished cooking it and have opened a pre-dinner bottle of Leo Buring Riesling.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 12:30 am
Enjoy,EV630

tal

5 Sep 10 at 12:38 am
This is why the left win all the time. You let them get away with this stuff.

Not true, Bird. I just assume that I win.

Look, Obama was a Muslim. That’s just a fact. And he isn’t a very believable Christian either. I’d say he’s essentially an atheist who hooked up with Rev Wright for the street cred. He isn’t really from the African-American milieu and he needed become a brother for political reasons in the Chicago firmament.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 12:45 am
SDFC
I don’t know why there should be any angst even if Obama is a Muslim, after all Islam and Christianity are are basically just different sects of the same religion

Yea, Every Sunday Bishops preach that young men ought to chop off someone’s neck and can bag themselves 72 virgins if they ram a 767 jet into a NYC building.

This is like you telling us that the BER and the Lurch/Rudd insulation debauchery raised our living standards.

Anymore smart comments, SDFC or is that all for the week?

JC

5 Sep 10 at 12:52 am
Aye Lad, but it’s funny folks that don’t care for religion are the first ones to yap on about it

tal

5 Sep 10 at 12:54 am
BO is a fraud all around. I don’t see why his religion is so crucial to Churl.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 12:55 am
Joe,that is bitter|sweet news about your child?

tal

5 Sep 10 at 12:59 am
Imagine if Bush did it.

New Oval Office rug gets history wrong.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 1:01 am
He bungled a rug.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 1:02 am
lord a Mercy Lad

tal

5 Sep 10 at 1:03 am
lol

Well it’s change you can’t believe in.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 1:03 am
I believe it’s spelt Boooooosh

tal

5 Sep 10 at 1:04 am
He really does screw up everything. What really irks is that the moron is so irrationally self-confident.

My kid’s over there and emailed me recently.. this is a kid that has absolutely no interest in politics. None.

S/he emailed to ask/tell me almost everyone she’s met talking about Obama can’t even sand the sight of him. She wanted to know why.

I think Americans are having their own Rudd moment when they realize the person they elected is indeed a turkey.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 1:09 am
Joe, your girl sounds independent and savvy. You raised her right, even if she’s being obstinate.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 1:10 am
This reapperence from the cage is truly hilarious. As if not one day has passed. Good laugh

Boris

5 Sep 10 at 1:12 am
…even if she’s being obstinate.

Dude, she defines obstinacy. Her middle name is Obstinate.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 1:14 am
I agree Boris

tal

5 Sep 10 at 1:15 am
Joe , That’s better than a “walk over Wendy”

tal

5 Sep 10 at 1:16 am
Joe,that is bitter|sweet news about your child?

Sorry I missed that Tal.

Yea… well that’s how things play out I guess. You gotta let them go sometime I guess not that we ever had any control over her even from a young age.

She’s studying for her SATS now and appling to colleges there, so I think that it. She’s gone. Poor wifey is a little grief stricken about it though.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 1:19 am
God Joe ,it’s one of the saddest things a parent goes through.There is one advantage…disposable income

tal

5 Sep 10 at 1:27 am
It’s taken me twenty + years to realise how devastated my mum was when I left home. (I know, you can’t see it that’s how I felt at the time).

It took having a bunch of kids of my own to wise up.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 1:34 am
Yea it is pretty devastating. I can’t believe how sort empty life feels without even one of them around.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 1:44 am
“It will indeed if you keep confusing me with a Leftist…..”

You are most definitely a leftist cretin. Now have you taken on the new information or are you still in denial? There is no use pretending to be anything other than a leftist if you are going to spend an entire Saturday night in total denial on a single subject that you will not drop.

Go away you idiot. Why did you not simply accept that you were wrong with good grace?

karl

5 Sep 10 at 1:50 am
Why did you not simply accept that you were wrong with good grace?

Birdie, that’s one big dirty pot calling that kettle very black

How can you say that?

JC

5 Sep 10 at 1:55 am
“I think Americans are having their own Rudd moment when they realize the person they elected is indeed a turkey.”

This was all entirely evidence before the lecture was over. But then if you are incapable of learning anything like the cretin EVEE, and just insult people when they bring you new information, you are going to be years into the Presidential term before finding this stuff out.

And look at the job our own media has done? Hopeless. None of the reality of the Obama disaster has gotten back to Australia. Its had not even seeped back to the endlessly stupid EVEE that he was in all likelihood a Muslim. It hadn’t occurred to FDB that he had been a Muslim virtually all his younger years.

Nothing that could explain to your average Australian what is behind the tea party has made it through the iron curtain of the Australian press. So we have people like THR running these guys down. When they are a very reasonable movement. What is there to disagree with them over?

karl

5 Sep 10 at 1:59 am
Birdie;

So you think he’s a gay Muslim?

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:03 am
Goodness me. What I meant to say that Obama’s nature was evident before the election was over. I got a bit mixed up there. I cannot stand people who won’t simply admit they are wrong and move on. Look above. You see I have corrected myself. Thats something that a few of you around here ought to learn to do. Instead of trying to abuse people who are forced to correct you, because you refuse to accept reality.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 2:07 am
Yes but is he a gay muslim?

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:10 am
Wow. Now that’s serious money to be spluring even for a Bugatti.

$30 million

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-25/collector-pays-more-than-30-million-for-1936-bugatti-video.html

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:11 am
oops…spurging

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:12 am
damn ipad..

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:12 am
Churl, you are quite the twat.

Having a Montecristo now. Thinking of you.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 2:15 am
Don’t start with more of this nonsense JC. Are you not tired of the filibuster that the three Amigos put on? Its lasted all night and it continues still. You can best believe that you and they take the same approach with global warming and any multitude of other subjects. Who are you? d’ Artagnan? The fourth Musketeer? One of the third amigos mini-me’s?

Irrational people ask what a person believes. This is always an important matter to the committed irrationalist. To people like you who never admit you are wrong and try and who use the leftist reversal, this is all pretty critical to people like you. People who try to project their inability to admit they are wrong onto other people. When I am wrong I admit it post-haste and move on. This appears to be something you want to tell lies about.

Were you in denial about Obama’s Islamic past? His probable Islamic present? I think you were. Thats what you have to deal with here. Were you in denial about it before the election? Are you in denial about it now?

You are essentially in the same position as THR. It hardly matters your tribal allegiance if you follow THR’s methodology of thinking you know things that you cannot possibly know.

The methodology is to follow the evidence. Not to be delusional and to assume you know things you cannot possibly know.

Answer your own question. But break it up. Is Obama a Muslim? Well the preponderance of evidence would suggest so. Though of course you and I are not in a position to know.

Then apply the same reasoning to the other question you raise.

Its terrible to have to walk grown adults through the process of assessing evidence, as though you were all cretins like EVEE. But there you are. Are you not capable of nutting a question like this out by yourself? And seeing where it is you get to?

Well yes I believe you are incapable of such a process. If you are capable of it lets see you thinking out loud.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 2:24 am
Birdie

Stop the filibustering bullshit and answer the question.

Do you believe Obama is a gay Muslim?

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:31 am
Yes well EVEE. The name-calling started the very second you were proved wrong. This is because you are a cretin with flat learning curves. If you weren’t a childish little puke there would have been no name-calling, and you would have accepted the tiny adjustment to your supernatural ignorance in good grace.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 2:32 am
This is too funny for words

UNEMPLOYMENT JUMPS TO 9.6%…

President Claims Job Creation; Doesn’t Mention Net Job Loss of 54K..

‘WE’RE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION’

HE NEEDS A VACATION: OBAMA TO CAMP DAVID..

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:36 am
Can I repeat to you JC you dummy. Irrational people are always interested in what others believe. Do you understand now? But we are not given to automatic knowledge. Now you appear to be still in denial about his probably Islamic status. I don’t think it would be an overwhelming probability that he is a Muslim. His incredibly callous version of free abortion choice would tend to go the other way. So I don’t have a “belief” in the irrational sense that you have “beliefs.” Were I inclined to answer your question I could not do it. Because unlike an irrational person, unlike yourself … I don’t get about with all these beliefs.

You don’t understand that do you? I work on best estimates and evidence. You deal with irrational beliefs. This is delusional on your part. I wouldn’t even expect you to be able to carve the question up and look at the evidence for him being Muslim, and look at the evidence for him being gay separately.

Certainly giving a stranger he had just met a blow-job would have to be considered evidence for him being gay.

Or do you disagree with that basic proposition.

Are you going to protest that you do this sort of thing all the time, and you are not gay?

Now it may be that its less credible that he is both these things at the same time. Is THIS what you are driving at? That he may be gay might in some peoples view reduce the probability that he is Muslim. Well I don’t know? What do you think? Are the two incompatible? Is there no Gay Muslims in this world? Is that your understanding?

karl

5 Sep 10 at 2:40 am
Proved wrong? My whole point is that your concern is irrelevant and somewhat creepy. You are yet to prove that to be wrong.

Cretin.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 2:49 am
He has two kids. That would go against the gay thesis right? He has no known girlfriends before Michelle. This could lend weight to the possibility of his extreme Muslim status. It might imply he had medical problems. It might lend weight to the idea that he is gay. It certainly doesn’t give one the impression that he is a normal male human being. Yet it doesn’t necessary imply “all of the above”. It may be hard for an irrational person to be convinced that their more scientifically-minded contemporaries don’t go around with all manner of “beliefs”, but you ought to get used to the idea.

YOU have beliefs to do with things you cannot possibly know. Rational people have few such beliefs. They may have core beliefs of some sort. But they don’t go around thinking they believe this, they believe that. They just respond to the evidence they have available.

Certainly we are talking about one dodgy character when it comes to Obama. Of this we can be very clear.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 2:54 am
You don’t need to lie about it EVEE. The first thing you said was that the idea that he was a Muslim was “risible”. Then when you were proven wrong the insults started. And you are never going to let the matter drop. You are determined to have flat learning curves. You simply won’t let it rest.

Now have your learned anything at all. You ought to have learned that this is a very reasonable suspicion for tea party types who wonder what his motivating his wrecking-ball behavior.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 2:58 am
Your whole agenda is risible. That was my point. Give it a rest, you fucking loony.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:02 am
Forget about this irrelevant detritus, the Wallabies just won one of the greatest Test Matches ever with the final kick of the game!

Infidel Tiger

5 Sep 10 at 3:04 am
It you who will not give it a rest EVEE. The main point is that instead of accepting reality the insults started. This subject is not important. What is important is that loony-tunes like you are walking around insulting people as a result of your own conceptual inadequacies.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 3:07 am
Obama was a muslim? Risible.

Well sorry but Bird’s right.

It isn’t “risible” at all.

Obama was a Muslim. That’s a fact.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:08 am
What a screwy country is Britain. Of all the things to protest about Tony Blair these loons are still haranguing him about the only good thing he did:

http://www.theage.com.au/world/protesters-vent-anger-at-blair-signing-20100904-14vas.html

Infidel Tiger

5 Sep 10 at 3:08 am
So what are you going to do tommorrow EVEE? Lock up another thread, with another filibuster, insulting people because you are too stupid to get with reality?

Its not this subject EVEE. Clearly you would behave this way for any subject. It doesn’t matter what the subject is. The denialist behavior and irrationality is the real topic here.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 3:09 am
Obama was a Muslim. That’s a fact.

True and his ostracised relatives have confirmed this. Just ask any Indonesian you meet. However, Obama now only worships one god – himself. There’s no deity that he considers worthy. Coulter’s article is spot on.

Infidel Tiger

5 Sep 10 at 3:11 am
Yeah, great finish in the Rugby! Yee-hah!

And the game was also a case study of what’s wrong with the code. You more or less have to be a Queen’s Counsel to ruck and maul, infringements inevitably occur and one team kicks its way to a win or back into the lead. This has to stop. I would change the law so that penalties for rucking/mauling infringements cannot be converted. You’d still get a freebie, get the ball, get a breather, get a kick for touch and a tap. All major disincentives to unlawful spoiling at the breakdown but we’d have more running and more tries.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:13 am
CL, so you subscribe to Bird’s agenda? I think that’s beneath you.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:15 am
Thats being a bit fancy. This is not the subject Infidel. The subject really is that people like THR, FDB, EVEE and JC insult people who prove them wrong. They never accept new information without having to subject people to this laborious process akin to slowly pulling teeth. They project their own childishness and other faults onto others. And so forth.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 3:15 am
Karl, we know what you’ll do tomorrow – more of the same Nirther shit.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:16 am
“CL, so you subscribe to Bird’s agenda? I think that’s beneath you.”

YOu still haven’t learned anything. You are a moron. You won’t let the matter drop.

THIS is the real subject. And if its not about Obama’s religious status it will be about an infinite of other subjects. People like you ought not be on blogs. You just get in the way. Once you have shown to be a person who starts insulting others when you are proved wrong, that excludes you from the blog process. You are a speedbump on the information superhighway. You are getting in the way.

What other subjects have you filibustered on recently?

karl

5 Sep 10 at 3:20 am
Too true, C.L. Rugby has become the nanny state with a ball. God it’s frustrating. Is there any other sport the ref plays such a role in?

As an aside, Quade Copper has been exposed as a very soft, yet brilliant turnstile. it’s called tackling son! If he bails on Rugby for League after all the support he’s been offered, then I wish him camel fleas in his jocks for eternity

Infidel Tiger

5 Sep 10 at 3:20 am
You are being childish on that subject, Ev.

Obama was a Muslim. That’s a fact.

It isn’t risible. Obama was a Muslim.

You were wrong. It’s not the end of the world.

Don’t try to re-spin it as something to do with me.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:20 am
Fuck off, you oxygen bandit.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:20 am
CL: I wasn’t wrong – my point is how is this relevant to anything? DTAKU, son.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:23 am
“Karl, we know what you’ll do tomorrow – more of the same Nirther shit.”

What shit are you talking about? You are the shit mate. You were proved wrong. You still won’t admit it. You started the insults the second you were proved wrong. And now you are claiming that its all shit. No its you that are shit.

Now are you quite clear that Obama WAS a Muslim, and its reasonable to access that he may still be one?

Or you too much the shit to admit that?

I think you are shit.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 3:24 am
“CL: I wasn’t wrong – my point is how is this relevant to anything? DTAKU, son.”

No you are liar. You are a piece of shit liar. That was not your claim and you refuse to admit that he was a Muslim. You claim that this is birther shit. Its you that are shit.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 3:26 am
Muslim or not, look at what the Marxist destroyer faces come November and rejoice:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/09/02/bigger_than_1994_106985.html

The handbrake of justice is about to be wrenched.

Infidel Tiger

5 Sep 10 at 3:27 am
Look at the shenanigans this shit is going through. He says that Obama being a Muslim, and the possibility that he may still be one is birther shit. Then he pretends that the issue was that it wasn’t relevant either way.

Just admit that you are wrong. And admit that you are worthless shit for kicking off the insults when you were proved wrong.

Understand that you are a worthless spineless insect and pick up your life from there.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 3:29 am
Ev, you wrote the following (4 Sep 10 at 6:33 pm):

“Obama was a muslim? Risible.”

It isn’t risible. He was a Muslim.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:32 am
Karl, this is a distracting argument that plays to Obama’s favour. He wants people talking about this crap. What he doesn’t want is people saying “regardless of who, what, where you came from, you’re destroying our country”. You need to slice like a sledgehammer on the man’s record as President not his nefarious and seamy past.

p.s The theory about Obama I think most likely is that Bill Ayers ghost wrote his books. I can’t see Obama filling in a golf scorecard, let alone writing 2 books.

Infidel Tiger

5 Sep 10 at 3:34 am
So you got that EVEE. Now can you admit you were wrong and drop it. And not insult me for being right? Not try and pretend that I’m at fault when its simply you and the others who don’t want to accept reality?

You think I like wasting my time like this. But its important that irrationality and mindlessness does not win out in every last area of the human understanding.

Admit you were wrong, wrong to start the insults when you were proven wrong, and if the other dopes don’t bring it up I won’t bring it up.

But be aware. It is not possible that this dysfunctional behavior is quaranteened to this subject alone. JC for example, pulls this sort of thing on all subjects.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 3:36 am
Some Obama related levity, from the world’s best satirist: Iowahawk.

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2010/09/barack-can-we-talk.html

Infidel Tiger

5 Sep 10 at 3:37 am
“Karl, this is a distracting argument that plays to Obama’s favou”

But its not about Obama infidel. Its about people like this wrecking every blog they are on by refusing to adapt to reality, insulting people who bring new information to them, and then not letting the matter drop.

Every chance EVEE gets he backslides on Obama having been a Muslim. He throws in the idea that its birther shit, when its a known fact.

As soon as FDB was trumped in the argument, he started delving into my alleged psychology.

Then THR tried to conflate this matter that he was wrong about, with other matters. Then JC jumped in, lied that I was a person who didn’t admit he was wrong …. and so forth.

We could be talking about anything and the four of them would be pulling the same stunts.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 3:40 am
Infidel, there is nothing wrong with stating facts in any context. Me? I think Obama is most likely a non-believer now. But there is no question that he was a Muslim in his youth. None. Now this history may affect his loyalties or it may not. Regardless, itt is still worth looking into. We are talking about the most important public office on the entire planet. There is nothing wrong with asking what makes the incumbent tick.

Michael Fisk

5 Sep 10 at 3:43 am
CL, yes – exactly. My point is that anyone who thinks it could be an issue is risible. See, for example, Karl.

Remember my subsequent comment? Re: relevance. DTAKU, son, DTAKU.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 5:36 am
“CL, yes – exactly. My point is that anyone who thinks it could be an issue is risible. See, for example, Karl.”

No you are a liar EVEE. You thought you knew that he wasn’t a Muslim. Any chance you get you backslide to your former ignorant position. It was an important matter before the election. The people pointing out that he may be a crypto-Muslim or a crypto-Communist were being ridiculed. Many conservatives like JC were supporting him. This blog supported him in general. When they are were proven wrong on any issue to do with this fellow they would do what you just did. They would insult the messenger.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 6:37 am
It goes further than this because you have to wonder how he got to be President. Before the election we had to try and figure out how someone so unqualified to be President was being promoted in this way. He had a radical Islamic supremacist backing him. Who had been backing him for decades. A fellow called Dr Khalid Mansour. Khalid Mansour worked for one of the Saud cousins. So the question had to be asked if the Americans were about to elect an actual agent of a foreign country to the White House as part of the jihadi struggle.

So here was this guy, a friend of Islamic supremacists, terrorists, gangsters and crooked politicians. I pointed out that he was probably still a Muslim. I said that if he wasn’t a Muslim what was Khalid Mansoor doing with him? And I got the same filibuster that EVEE, you piece of shit, subjected me to on this thread.

Now the thing is this; if the four of you cannot deal with the easy stuff, like the question that was put before you earlier, then how are you qualified to discuss more complex questions?

Clearly you are not. And if the four of you are just going to put out filibusters like this one you will not leave alone now, then you ought to recuse yourself from blog debate.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 6:47 am
Clearly the three amigos and d’Artangen JC, are not qualified to appraise the likelihood of various more complicated matters. But I think now we can address this nonsense of it not being an important matter. All matters of reality are important when you know almost nothing about someone who is determined to destroy our most important ally. It is important to note that a communist spy came very close to becoming the President on an earlier occasion. A communist spy became Vice President. Another communist spy lived in the White House as the Presidents right hand man. If the four amigos are going to just say “you called it a conspiracy” and believe that this is some sort of trump card, then this is a matter for them. They ought not take their irrationality public.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJzU056ccV4&feature=related

karl

5 Sep 10 at 7:01 am
Look out for the Hawaiian woman in this clip. She has her husbands birth certificate from 1949 and her sons birth certificate from 1981. Now people, if they weren’t like the four amigos, should have seen that there was a problem BEFORE he was elected. But rather those people, like JC, didn’t want to know, supported Obama in the election, and did the EVEE thing, insulting anyone who brought up problems with his eligibility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWPI5GOZJT4

karl

5 Sep 10 at 8:01 am
JC supported Obama? Probably news to him.

karl, you are a single-issue monomaniac. I happen to believe that Obama is a crap President. But he’d be a crap President whether he was a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Scientologist.

I really don’t see why people fucking care that much.

Quentin George

5 Sep 10 at 9:35 am
No I’m not a single issue monomaniac. I talk about any number of issues. You are being an idiot. The fact is that JC, Jason Soon, and any number of people on this forum supported Obama. JC and Jason Soon also supported the carbon tax, and the bank bailout. Soon supported the Malcolm Turnbull carbon price and was favourable to the extra company tax for miners. They supported also the communist nationalisation of strategic Australian assets.

All of these positions were arrived at by the THR/EVEE/FDB methodology. At no point apply systematic analysis. Ridicule anyone who proves you wrong. Don’t think. Smugness is superior to reason.

Not only did they support Obama. They ran interference for him. Ridiculing anyone who brought evidence to bear that he was no so much as eligible to run. It was a constant feedback loop of what we saw with the three amigos yesterday.

Get your facts straight idiot.

karl

5 Sep 10 at 10:19 am
Bye bye ‘Karl’.

Sinclair Davidson

5 Sep 10 at 10:21 am
Mullah Omar strikes again

tal

5 Sep 10 at 10:29 am
Sorry, Ev. That’s just spin.

Look, Obama is a very strange person. The media essentially banned all investigations into who he really was in the campaign (banned themselves, that is) while sending dozens of reporters to rifle through Sarah Palin’s wheelie bins. It’s simply extraordinary, for example, that his academic records are sealed. When Bush and Gore were going hammer and tong, their academic records, GPAs, majors and scholarly abilities were discussed at length. Why is ‘Professor’ Obama’s academic record verboten?

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 11:21 am
Went out to the pub in Perth last night to watch the collingwood game. First time I’ve been out to a pub here for a couple of years.

Wobbled out the door around 10:30pm, was just about to get into the car (girlfriend came to pick me up) when we watched a bouncer run off the pub grounds to punch some Irish tourist who was trying to leave and looking the other way.

Luckily for the guy he fell onto soft ground but they could easily have killed him. We told the bouncers we video taped the whole thing (unfortunately we didn’t), and they threatened to call the cops on us.

Yobbo

5 Sep 10 at 11:53 am
“Went out to the pub in Perth”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3tmo_AHKJQ

FDB

5 Sep 10 at 11:56 am
Bouncers. It warms the cockles of my being when one of them gets decked.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 12:37 pm
“Luckily for the guy he fell onto soft ground but they could easily have killed him. We told the bouncers we video taped the whole thing (unfortunately we didn’t), and they threatened to call the cops on us.”

What for, should have been the next question.

.

5 Sep 10 at 1:11 pm
“Now this history may affect his loyalties or it may not. Regardless, itt is still worth looking into.”

When we are discussing nomimation, yes, very much so. Especially for a first-time senator with no record to speak of. But now he has a record as President, and he should be judged by it, I think.

Boris

5 Sep 10 at 1:13 pm
I am 100% with IT. If after years in office, his opponents need to invoke his origins etc, then it demonstrates that their message is not compelling enough.

Boris

5 Sep 10 at 1:16 pm
Not for nothing but weren’t all these government offices such as the CSRIO, the weather bureau all telling us that the southern part of the continent was never gain to see heavy rain again and that it was doomed?

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-09-04/australia-s-victoria-hit-by-storms-flooding-towns-evacuated.html

What happened fellas?

Jc..

5 Sep 10 at 1:30 pm
“all telling us that the southern part of the continent was never gain to see heavy rain again and that it was doomed?”

Go ahead and find a link to that supposed claim, JC. I dare you.

Jarrah

5 Sep 10 at 1:35 pm
I really don’t see why people fucking care that much.

Quentin, the people who care most are Obama zombies who are trying to verbal Obama’s opponents into saying – collectively – that he’s a Muslim. There are some people on the fringes who care but the Tea Party couldn’t care less. As I said above, if there’s a conservative publication as mainstream as the Trig Troofer Atlantic raving on about Obama being a Muslim, I’d like to know what it is.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 2:22 pm
They said if Americans voted for McCain-Palin, books would be banned and free speech undermined…

And they were right!

Democrats trying to ban book promo by Republican ‘Young Guns’ Eric Cantor of Virginia, Kevin McCarthy of California and Paul Ryan of Wisconsin.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 2:28 pm
Hugo’s at it again
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/09/04/1807508/venezuela-introduces-cuba-like.html

tal

5 Sep 10 at 2:38 pm
‘Venezuela introduces Cuba-like food card’

Tal, two years ago a collective of socialists – including the ABC’s Phillip Adams, left-wing icon John Pilger, Julia Gillard coalition colleague, Kerry Nettle of the Greens, and Kevin Rudd’s nephew Van Thanh Rudd – begged Chavez to come and teach Australians a lesson:

Every country has its own traditions and culture and has to find its own solutions, but what Venezuela has been able to achieve in so little time will be a source of inspiration and ideas for many in Australia.

I’m intersted to see how Phat Phil reacts to the food card.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 2:47 pm
That would be ugly CL. I hope Bob Brown doesn’t read the piece

tal

5 Sep 10 at 2:48 pm
Jarrah:

Of course you know that no one said there was never going to another drop of rain again in an explicit way.

They attempted to plant those seeds by suggesting we would never see historic average rain levels again.

The statistician at Niche Modeling blog ripped that shit apart about 2 years ago when Meteorology suggested that. Niche Modeling showed that even using M’s very own stats there was no proof for their case and demonstrated that Australian weather tends to move in long intervals and the southern drought was not out of the ordinary. You can go to his site and check and look for it as I can’t be bothered seeing we’ve already done that here.

But hey, it does look like the southern drought is pretty much over, hey?

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:50 pm
Amazing… they’re running out of food now.

Where’s Kerry Nettle on this? That was the same Kez that asked Abbott to keep his rosary off her ovaries.

Kez, can i assure you that you never did have and won’t have a problem in the future.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:53 pm
Retraction accepted, JC.

Jarrah

5 Sep 10 at 2:54 pm
Retraction of what exactly , Jarrah? Nick M disproved the thesis the south part of the continent was going in eternal drought conditions?

Of course that doesn’t deserve any retraction.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 2:57 pm
Tal, full list of Chavez food card supporters here. Many are Green Party coalition colleagues of Julia Gillard:

Deb Foskey – Greens Member of the Legislative Assembly (ACT)

Ian Cohen – MLC NSW, Greens

Kerry Nettle – Australian Greens Senator for NSW

Lee Rhiannon – Member of the Legislative Council NSW (Greens)

Michele McKenzie – Greens Councillor, Leichhardt Council

Sylvia Hale – Member of the Legislative Council NSW (Greens)

Note well: the Gillard government has entered into an alliance with a political party that supports a mini-Nazi police state.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 2:58 pm
Palin: ya gotta love her.

More on Dave Roever here. He was facially disfigured beyond recognition in the Vietnam War.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:02 pm
Hey… I’m there, CL.

The Australian Global Warming and Fair Pay Institute

JC

5 Sep 10 at 3:02 pm
LOL
Beer-swilling British women are branded the ‘ugliest in the world’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1308985/Female-Brits-abroad-branded-ugliest-world.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz0yd221UjA

JC

5 Sep 10 at 3:06 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Memories.

The AGWFPI is still gettin’ it done.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:06 pm
“Retraction of what exactly , Jarrah?”

no one said there was never going to another drop of rain again

I was kindly ignoring the weasel words “in an explicit way”.

Jarrah

5 Sep 10 at 3:09 pm
Oh yea.. I forgot you’re pedant.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 3:11 pm
That list really is the who’s who of totalitarian haters. Communists, Islamists and Green Hitlerites. It must be very embarrassing to be a supporter of the Chavez regime right now. THR?

Michael Fisk

5 Sep 10 at 3:14 pm
The Daily Mail should have got some real pics for that story on Brit boilers. The one ‘posed with models’ might be considered vaguely alluring by some gentlemen.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:16 pm
Hello all.

Yes, CL, it was spin, intended to deny Karl any satisfaction because he was a monomaniacal nut bag.

Now, I came clean, you can too by admitting Hawking’s observation about anthropocentrism is correct.

Ho ho, hee hee, ha ha.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:18 pm
From the link:

Jaime Suchlicki, director of the University of Miami’s Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies, said that Venezuela’s current problems of scarce supplies are very similar to those Cuba faced when Fidel Castro introduced the rationing card.

“The card emerged when goods began to become scarce,” Suchlicki said. “The government had seized many companies that did not work because the government managed them poorly. Then they decided to distribute groceries through those cards.

In fact, this depressing story has repeated itself in almost every country that has abolished private property, not just Cuba. It is astonishing that there are still people out there who advocate the destruction of private property.

Michael Fisk

5 Sep 10 at 3:19 pm
Some respect please, Fisk. Several of them are coalition colleagues of the prime minister.

Now imagine if Tony Abbott and the Lib Nats entered into an alliance with a party whose members had requested that General Pinochet be brought to Australia…

Every country has its own traditions and culture and has to find its own solutions, but what Chile has been able to achieve in so little time will be a source of inspiration and ideas for many in Australia.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:23 pm
No I won’t, Ev, because it isn’t. Hawking has beclowned himself to sell another coffee table bestseller.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:24 pm
Great win last night by the Wallabies. Always good to get one over the Boers, and to win deep in the heart of their territory is an achievement indeed. A fine game and a historic win for our boys.

asf

5 Sep 10 at 3:27 pm
US lefties finally admit that their anti-Bushitler agitprop was all for the Democrat Party and that they couldn’t care less about war or casualties.

Gee. I’m shocked.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:27 pm
Now imagine if Tony Abbott and the Lib Nats entered into an alliance with a party whose members had requested that General Pinochet be brought to Australia

Comparing Chavez to Pinochet is about as logical as comparing Abbott with Franco.

THR

5 Sep 10 at 3:31 pm
CL, please don’t be Churlish.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:36 pm
What a finale, hey asf? As Tim Horan said, it was backyard fantasy stuff – the kind for which you once provided commentary in the backyard…

Twenty seconds from the hooter. It’s 39-38 with the Springboks in front, he’s 55 METRES OUT – it looks IMPOSSIBLE. He hits the ball… it’s got the distance, has it got the direction? Waiting, waiting… the flags are up! Australia wins 41-39! Raaaaaahhhhhh!

Voice in background: “Come up for dinner now please.”

Kurtley Beale should frame this.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:36 pm
Ev, you’ve admitted you were being silly on Obama.

Goodo.

Fin.

Now don’t try to offset that minor thing with further boosterism for Hawking’s embarrassing argument.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 3:40 pm
I got Jack Johnson latest album for dads day.
It’s really good.

Jc..

5 Sep 10 at 3:42 pm
Franco and Pinochet were much more effective than Abbott, agreed.

Michael Fisk

5 Sep 10 at 3:42 pm
CL, I know you’d rather die than acknowledge Hawkings’ observation is correct. Faith is a powerful deterrent to rationalism. Let’s leave it at that.

Hope you enjoyed the pun on Karl in my earlier post. No need to be serious all the time, dear boy.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:45 pm
Ev

admitting Hawking’s observation about anthropocentrism is correct.

Hawking is talking about two things, neither of which is “anthropocentrism”.

1. Geocentrism
2. A claim on God’s “purpose” upon which he alleges Christianity is based.

Peter Patton

5 Sep 10 at 3:45 pm
“Comparing Chavez to Pinochet is about as logical as comparing Abbott with Franco.”

As illogical as it may be, the way some Lefties have got their panic on and crapped on about Abbott being far right (ie on LP and The Drum) suggests that far worse comparisons are being made.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:48 pm
Peter – good man.

Ev630

5 Sep 10 at 3:49 pm
Yep, Abbot wants to capture the Pope and imprison him in Mosman. Then bring back sin offerings for menstrual and nocturnal omissions, ban women and homosexuals and move the capital to Canisuis college.

Or something.

.

5 Sep 10 at 3:51 pm
Bill finally cuts the chord and strongly indicates there’s going to be a play for the Dem primary in 12, or Obama just doesn’t run again.

Bill Clinton Endorses anti-Obamacare Dem in NYC

[ Via: New York Post ]

Bill Clinton strongly endorsed “independent” Staten Island Democrat Rep. Mike McMahon’s re-election bid yesterday — even saying it was OK for the incumbent to buck President Obama by voting against health-care reform.

“The one thing you got to say about this guy is he has been truly independent; he is not partisan,” Clinton said while stumping for McMahon at Wagner College.

“He has not voted for the president on every issue. On health care, for example, we New Yorkers have a special problem. We have a lot of immigrants here who are undocumented, and our hospitals claim real problems under this health-care bill,” Clinton added.

You just gotta love the dude. Well err sorta. There’s only one political party in Bill’s world and that’s the Bill Party..

JC

5 Sep 10 at 3:53 pm
Indeed CL. I’ve been down on Beale in the past for his lack of consistency, but there is no doubting the lad can play. Have to hand it to Joeys, he has been well taught.

asf

5 Sep 10 at 4:05 pm
“You just gotta love the dude. Well err sorta. There’s only one political party in Bill’s world and that’s the Bill Party..”

Same with Hilary.

Hilary’s student stuff reads like she belongs in a pro war faction of the Republican Liberty Caucus. Some of the stuff she’s said sounds pro Communist. Now she’s decidedly centrist.

The Clintons would be good in the corporate world. Greed is good. I reckon Bill should have had a golden handshake clause when he got inaugurated. Same for Hilary if she ever got the job. Love him or hate him, he’s up there with Reagan, Eisenhower and Kennedy. Good economic managers. Strong, sane foreign policy.

She would have been better than Obama. I bet the US conservatives feel like Pillocks for demonising her.

.

5 Sep 10 at 4:14 pm
Ev, whenever you do your Colonel Blimp thing, I know you’re rattled and somewhat angry. Hawking’s argument is an embarrassment.

Learn from your Obama error and stick to humility on this one too.

OK, buddy?

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 4:44 pm
Prince Philip – a surprisingly talented artist.

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 9:10 pm
Dot:

I always recall that just before he left office some dude remarked that people won;t know until they do just how much they’ll miss Bill.

Look to be honest I’m now in the camp of anyone by Obama.

I think Hillary has dried up a lot from her student days and would be a competent prez. especially with the Blow job bill around.

Yep, I agree American conservatives must be feeling like doofuses now for trying to kill her.

But they’re so damned dishonest. Every bit of campaign finance by those two always had a question mark beside it.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 9:18 pm
The Duke is a hoot

tal

5 Sep 10 at 9:23 pm
Anyone see Laurie Oakes this morn? No kidding, but the guy really looks ill. He’s yellow (jaundiced), which could be a sign of serious pancreas problem.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 9:45 pm
I saw Comrade Oakes at Canberra airport a couple of weeks ago.
Same thing occurred to me as did JC.
Not a well man, even considering the average pasty faced overweight blob seen lurking in the darker corners of the nation’s capital.

Pedro the Ignorant

5 Sep 10 at 10:04 pm
His did look healthy during the leak period

tal

5 Sep 10 at 10:07 pm
Sorry, he

tal

5 Sep 10 at 10:08 pm
Pedro:

Jaundice can mean a lot of things. However if a patient walked into a docs office who also happened to be obese and had a yellowish tinge the first thing that should be asked is if he has any symptoms to do the pancreas and send him or her for further testing to investigate further.

That was not a well man I saw on TV this morn unless of course he’s been overdosing on carrot juice by the gallon, which would explain the yellowish tinge.

I hope he’s okay though.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 10:16 pm
His did look healthy during the leak period

Yes, which could make his recent appearance even more concerning, Tal, because things move at the speed of knots with really serious pancreatic problems.

At first I really wanted to adjust the TV color and then I saw the despicable Anthony Albanese looking as healthy as a bathed baby’s bottom in terms of color…. obviously not having a care in the world seeing they bagged Oakeshitt.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 10:21 pm
Might he be eating too many yellow jelly beans?

Would that do it?

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 10:28 pm
Seriously, CL. You’d hope so. You’d hope he’s gouging on some yellow stuff.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 10:34 pm
Comrade Oakes redeemed much of his shattered reputation with his zinger at the Canberra Press Club re the surgical removal of the Ruddster.

He has annoyed me much in the past, and it is hard not to believe he has an agenda that he pushes both relentlessly and subtly, but I do not wish him ill, and hope that if he is unwell, he gets his priorities squared away and looks after his health.

In the Great Scheme of Things, being the “elder statesman of the press gallery” doesn’t count for a hill of beans.

(We Mexicans know our onions about beans, too.)

Pedro the Ignorant

5 Sep 10 at 10:35 pm
Yea, that was a great catch over the Rudd slashing. I loved how the color (there I go again) quickly drained from the GillFried’s face over that question.

But to be honest the only reason he did that was because his beloved former janitor was killed in action otherwise he’d be gunning for the other side.

Some people rise to a level of incompetence and perhaps the little turd should have stayed doing what he did.. cleaning jabba’s toilet.

JC

5 Sep 10 at 10:42 pm
Some Gillard stooge has obviously interfered with Oakes’s Wiki entry:

Oakes also ambushed Gillard about so called leaks from within Labor, one about cabinet discussions on parental leave. However these leaks have not ever been substantiated and may have come from a desperate Liberal party. Former ACTU president Sharan Burrow said Gillard always supported paid parental leave, and added ”Laurie Oakes must be suffering some sort of relevance deprivation syndrome.” Former Victorian Premier Joan Kirner dismissed the story as ”absolute rubbish” and said Julia Gillard and Jenny Macklin argued for paid parental leave. There is always some suspicion when such accusations are made, but motive needs to be considered when determining their veracity. Oakes himself and the Liberal party gain from unfounded accusations. Until Oakes reveals the source his honesty remains tainted.

Yeah, like we’re going to believe Emily’s List sheltered workshop graduates Burrow and Kirner over Oakes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Oakes

C.L.

5 Sep 10 at 10:55 pm
Interesting converation at LP’s with Robert Merkal scolding LE because she’s AGW sceptical.

Merkal poses veiled threats.

SL says ”

And I’m sorry, but I’m struggling to see the last par of your post as anything other than a veiled threat, especially when it comes to the mention of LE’s students and colleagues”

These people are truly fucking incredible. What a complete tosser.

http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2010/09/04/climate-change-scepticism-and-elitism/comment-page-2/#comment-81054

JC

5 Sep 10 at 11:48 pm
People get cranky about the weather JC

tal

5 Sep 10 at 11:57 pm
The trauma of Robert Merkel:

…it is very hard for me to accept climate skepticism of the kind she espouses in her post… as the views of somebody who has underlying assumptions about the world anything vaguely resembling my own.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 12:12 am
Oh bless

tal

6 Sep 10 at 12:16 am
Oh yes, he is indeed traumatic.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 12:28 am
Sorry for the delay. Work day here.

CL – angry and rattled? Please don’t project. You and Peter comprehensively failed to disprove the anthropocentrism in Judeo-Christian religions (though I note Peter has made baby steps in the right direction above. Peter, good man). It hardly becomes you to lampoon and ridicule Hawking when you seek to elide your way around a basic, elegant observation that challenges a core concept of your faith. Facile, indeed.

Adversity makes strange bedfellows, never more evident in your coalition with Karl, one of the craziest mono-maniacs ever to visit this site, and a repugnant individual.

As for Obama, my point is and has always been – how is it relevant? He’s not a Muslim now, and if he was, so what? It’s a bloody distraction and a desperate one at that.

Now, carry on where you left off, Babar, old bean.

Ev630

6 Sep 10 at 1:04 am
Ev. Sorry. I know this must be hard for you. You’re doing the Colonel Blimp thing again so I know you must still be rattled. But nobody has ever said “the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings.”

Christianity – which you’ve now altered to “Judeo-Christian religions” – is not anthropocentric.

It is Christocentric.

The idea that Christ was merely human was propounded by various heretics in ancient times – see Monarchianism, Adoptionism and, ultimately Arianism – but such ideas were always condemned by the universal Church.

Christianity is therefore Christocentric and therefore Theocentric. If anything, it teaches that the universe exists so that we may please God – ut in omnibus glorificetur Deo – not because God was trying to please us.

Hawking’s thesis is profoundly stupid and embarrassing. That a comparable solar system exists (lifeless, as it happens) which reminds observers of our own corner of the universe is no more evidence against the existence of God than the existence of a freakish doppelganger for me existing in Dublin. Indeed, the gift of a lifeless but fascinating brother solar system brings into stark relief the superabundant majesty of God and the especial beauty of Earth.

—————————–

Turning to Obama, you wrote:

“Obama was a muslim? Risible.”

It isn’t risible.

It’s true. He was a Muslim.

Your point was not “how is it relevant?”

Had it been, you would have written, “So what if Obama was a Muslim? To imply that it does is risible.”

No, you disputed the very fact that he was – dismissing it as laughable and ludicrous.

It wasn’t laughable and ludicrous (risible).

It’s true.

You were wrong.

As for your childish attempt via the association fallacy to link me with somebody’s else’s ensemble of outrageous views simply because I corrected you on one important fact, nobody is buying it. I don’t believe Obama is gay, Kenyan, a double-agent or a Martian. Indeed, Ev, the irony is that you are emulating Karl in playing join-the-dots assocation. Not me.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 1:37 am
CL, is Obama a muslim? Answer: no. Therefore a focus on it is risible.

Please connect the dots so I don’t have to explain it to you next time.

But nobody has ever said “the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings.”

I’ve addressed this straw man earlier, several times. The inference to be drawn from a reading of the Old and New Testaments is that the religion is anthropocentric. [See "meek/earth", the genesis quote, and others].

A good direct knowledge of a faith like Catholicism (ie having grown up in it as I have) will only add to that inference via the things that priests say to the congregation either during Mass or within the parish. Anyone who professes to be a life-long Catholic who denies that sermons sometimes draw on all the wonderful things god made for mankind that we should be thankful for is a bloody liar).

Your focus on the fact that Hawkings’ phrase (a summary of the anthropocentric gist of Christianity) is pure misdirection. Only a stupid person or a dishonest one would not take away anthropocentrism as a core Christian concept from an honest exegesis of the canonical texts. A stupid person would say, “show me where it is explicitly stated…” etc. Again, a point I made earlier in this thread.

I know you’re not stupid.

As for this:

Christianity – which you’ve now altered to “Judeo-Christian religions” – is not anthropocentric.

How does observing that I have broadened my observation to include the pre-Christian religion from which Christianity is itself plagiarised strengthen your case or in any way weaken mine?

You’re clearly excellent at planting inference but have no talent identifying it!

I certainly regret having wasted my time on the Obama/Muslim baiting of Churl, since it has become yet another distraction in your bag of tricks, Felix.

Toodle-pip, old boy.*

Regards
Ev

*I threw that in for you and your Colonel Blimp fixation – another distraction to steer us away from the fact that Hawkings has made a valid observation which challenges the anthropocentric world-view of Christians.

Ev630

6 Sep 10 at 1:54 am
Another dishonest alteration:

CL, is Obama a muslim? Answer: no. Therefore a focus on it is risible.

What you wrote:

“Obama was a muslim? Risible.”

It isn’t risible.

It’s a fact. Obama was a Muslim.

You were wrong.

I’ve addressed this straw man earlier, several times.

No. You haven’t. The straw man is the Hawking’s risible invention – to wit: “…the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings.”

Nobody ever said the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings.

If anything, this comes close to being the exact opposite of what Christians believe about Creation. Namely, that it exists for us to please God – not so that God can please us. In all of the steps of creation in Genesis, God declares what he has wrought on the days is “good”. He pleased himself.

…sermons sometimes draw on all the wonderful things god made for mankind that we should be thankful for…

He made them. We should be grateful. This is a long way from saying He created them “just to please us.” I have never heard such a thing in a sermon.

Only a stupid person or a dishonest one would not take away anthropocentrism as a core Christian concept from an honest exegesis of the canonical texts. A stupid person would say, “show me where it is explicitly stated…”

So when all else failed – and it has failed, my man – you turn to that most devastating of arguments: ‘You’re stupid’. An honest exegesis of the canonical texts:

Christianity… is not anthropocentric.

It is Christocentric.

The idea that Christ was merely human was propounded by various heretics in ancient times – see Monarchianism, Adoptionism and, ultimately Arianism – but such ideas were always condemned by the universal Church.

Christianity is therefore Christocentric and therefore Theocentric. If anything, it teaches that the universe exists so that we may please God.

Hawking’s thesis is profoundly daft. Is, as I said originally, a capitulation. He concedes – under the guise of hubristic certitude and via amateurish exegetical bungling – that neither he nor physics can explain God away.

Fail.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 2:23 am
I didn’t say you were stupid, though, did I?

Ev630

6 Sep 10 at 2:32 am
who are these Pedestian Council jokers?
Now because of the follies of a few, ipod use may get restricted for the rest of us

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mp3s/pedestrian-death-rise-blamed-on-ipods-20100905-14w4d.html

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 6:57 am
They always pop up in the paper as comment about pedestrian safety, apparently they organize walk to work day and such. They have a quote by Prince Charles on their homepage, apparently he thinks the commoners should be out walking more.

Steve Edney

6 Sep 10 at 8:51 am
“Quentin, the people who care most are Obama zombies who are trying to verbal Obama’s opponents into saying – collectively – that he’s a Muslim. There are some people on the fringes who care but the Tea Party couldn’t care less.”

Orly?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/15/tea-party-leader-melts-do_n_286933.html

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 10:38 am
Speaking of crazy conspiracy theorists

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/how-to-make-a-lot-of-money-on-the-stock-market-right-now/#comment-32504

Cambria contributes money to Catallaxy so he can get away with his bullshit. It must be understood that fractional reserve churns out two-faced vermin like Cambria out just as effectively as it turns out funny-money.

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 10:43 am
FDB

What’s worse. Some dude saying Obama is an Indonesian Muslim, which actually happens to be based on fact. He was a Muslim living in Indonesia as a child or some leftwinger suggesting Palin was wearing a tub pretending it was her kid when the latest baby is her daughter’s?

JC

6 Sep 10 at 10:46 am
Jase.

That’s right I’m paying Sinc hundreds of 1000′s of dollars to keep the site going so it helps keep the banks run leveraged balance sheets.

I think he read that i sent Jacques 100 bucks when the collection tin was going around after he set the blog up on a new server.

Good one bird. Another fine mess you’ve got yourself into.

You missed “karl” on the weekend.

Birdie showed up and after a coupla comments he breaks into his unique bird song, gets caught out and sent to the bird cage.

Birdie and his boyfriend can’t keep their DR. Stranglove like personalities disguised for longer than one comment.

By the second comment their hand is choking them.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 10:53 am
Your comparison means nothing to me Joe. I was just responding to CL’s howler..

You know coming up with glib-distractions-in-the-face-of-obvious-wrongness is all CL can do. Don’t be a meanie and steal his thunder.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 10:54 am
“Birdie and his boyfriend can’t keep their DR. Stranglove like personalities disguised for longer than one comment.”

Actually I was surprised how long he kept it together. But then the strain was clearly too much and he overcompensated once the horse bolted.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 10:57 am
Okay then try it this way:

1. The Obama is an Indonesian Muslim is actually based on fact, as he was a young Muslim child growing up in Indonesia. This isn’t bullshit , as this is in his book telling how he was taken to Indonesia by his step father according to his book called “Audacity of a Community Organizer”… er sorry it was called “Audacity of Hope”.

2. Palin was accused by prominent leftwingers of wearing a tub around her stomach pretending she was pregnant so that she could disguise and cover for her daughter’s pregnancy.

Which is the worse.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 11:02 am
Now Oakshit needs till Wednesday to decide.

FFS as sure as night follows day, the Pope is Catholic and Philomena can stand up to pee, we know which side you’re on already dude. Stop wasting our fucking time.

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 11:07 am
To get to the heart of whether CL was wrong or not, I think you really need to answer the following question JC.

When CL said the following:

“There are some people on the fringes who care but the Tea Party couldn’t care less”

was CL wrong or not?

In light of my link to what the leader of the Tea Party said on the record in an interview, I believe CL was substantively wrong.

We can get on to your fascinating game of Apples or Oranges – which is worse than Hitler? later okay?

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 11:10 am
He’s such a dickhead. Obviously there are problems in the trioka. It suggests to me that the other two may be leaning to Abbott and he’s on left field all alone and acting like a panicked little girl.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 11:12 am
BTW Philomena got a big mention over at Tim Blair’s place
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/solidarity_breached/

tal

6 Sep 10 at 11:15 am
FDB:

I think the Tea Party guy just got his present and past tense wrong during the interview.

I listened to the interview and he really meant to say that Obama WAS an Indonesian Muslim, which is a fact.

But so what though. What’s wrong with being an Indonesian Muslim, FDB? What do you have against them.

Why are you so offended by the characterization?

I wouldn’t be offended if say someone suggested incorrectly I was a French Catholic.

Why do you hate Muslim’s, FDB?

JC

6 Sep 10 at 11:17 am
So wait, JC – are you acknowledging that CL was wrong? Just before we get onto your irrelevant bullshit.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 11:20 am
FMD

what’s Philo doing over at LP? I thought he was too crazy even for them,

And is he saying he’s into horses?

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 11:21 am
Different philomena.

Jinmaro’s been through half the fucking aliases in existence – it’s bound to happen sooner or later.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 11:23 am
CL…CL…CL…CL…CL…CL…

FDB is almost as obsessed with me as Andrew Sullivan is with Trig.

He might like to conduct the most basic of research before embarrassing himself by believing what he reads at far left wacko site, Huffington Post.

Mark Williams is a radio shock jock whose outrageous rhetoric…

…was widely criticized as racist, and as a result David Webb of the National Tea Party Federation on July 18 went on Face the Nation to announce that Williams and the Tea Party Express were expelled from the National Tea Party Federation.

Also reported at Obama news network, MSNBC – in JULY:

Tea Party federation expels group over racial writing.

Note that the Huffington Post deliberately lied when it called Williams a “Tea Party leader.”

FDB: beclowned.

By the way, some of us are still waiting for an organisation called the “Democrat Party” to expel an outspoken racist – and Democrat Party leader – called Harry Reid for calling the President a “light-skinned negro” who doesn’t talk like a street negro. Ditto for Democrat Party leader Joe Biden who described the President as “clean and articulate.” (Unlike your average run-of-the-mill black).

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 11:48 am
“…all telling us that the southern part of the continent was never gain to see heavy rain again and that it was doomed?”

Go ahead and find a link to that supposed claim, JC. I dare you.

I think JC was thinking of the following howler from Melbourne Water, widely reported last year:

Unfortunately, we cannot rely on this kind of rainfall like we used to. Any new dam we build in the Melbourne catchment will face the same problem.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 11:58 am
an organisation called the “Democrat Party”

Never heard of it.

Tillman

6 Sep 10 at 12:02 pm
He pleased himself.

What a wanker.

Tillman

6 Sep 10 at 12:04 pm
your childish attempt via the association fallacy to link me with somebody’s else’s ensemble of outrageous views

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Tillman

6 Sep 10 at 12:06 pm
FDB

Nope. It is the same Philomena.

Peter Patton

6 Sep 10 at 12:11 pm
More heartbreak for the Democrat Party:

Fewer Young Voters See Themselves as Democrats.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 12:13 pm
same avatar design FDB

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 12:16 pm
Tory MP discovers his wife is a whore (literally)

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mp-left-devastated-after-discovering-wife-was-a-prostitute-20100906-14wts.html

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 12:21 pm
ELO member dies in one of the most bizarre accidents in history:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertainment/confidential/elo-star-mike-edwards-dies-in-freak-hay-bale-accident/story-e6frf96o-1225914702769

Infidel Tiger

6 Sep 10 at 12:26 pm
Probably because said whore found out hubby was yet ANOTHER Tory poof!

Peter Patton

6 Sep 10 at 12:36 pm
Jason – these sex scandals are beoming very embarrassing. I’ve often never heard of the people involved – yet I read about their sex lives in the paper like it’s important news.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Sep 10 at 12:49 pm
Thanks CL.

Go ahead and find a link to that supposed claim, JC. I dare you.

I think JC was thinking of the following howler from Melbourne Water, widely reported last year:

Unfortunately, we cannot rely on this kind of rainfall like we used to. Any new dam we build in the Melbourne catchment will face the same problem.

Yea Jarrah. Don’t be bashful. Admit it, CL did good right?

JC

6 Sep 10 at 12:51 pm
Sinclair – it actually shouldn’t matter.

Clinton’s impeachment was a waste of time. He and GOP congressional leaders could have been prosecuting a war against bin Laden.

Fail.

.

6 Sep 10 at 1:32 pm
http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/28/refuse-to-carry-frenchmen-and-dogs/

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 2:02 pm
Bit unfair on dogs.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 2:19 pm
JC,
I am no great fan of Obama but I see no evidence that he was ever a Muslim. Living in Indonesia no more made him a Muslim than it made me one when I was living there not long afterwards.
The schools he went to (one of them a Roman Catholic one) were hardly hotbeds of Islamic religious thought – the then Indonesian President’s children went to Besuki, for example.
In the absence of any evidence of a proper declaration of faith, the whole “Obama is a Muslim” thing is just risible, IMHO.

Andrew Reynolds

6 Sep 10 at 2:31 pm
dot – I’m more worried about the fact that I’ve never heard of half these people.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Sep 10 at 2:33 pm
“same avatar design FDB”

The pattern randomly assigned by Wordpress because she has no gravatar?

Wow, I’m convinced.

The comments (and I’m pretty sure I’ve spotted every one of her and Greenfield’s many many morphs pretty promptly) are not written by the same person. I’d stake a tidy sum.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 2:45 pm
Andrew:

I don’t really don’t want to get into this in the sense that someone will begin birdianing me by suggesting I saying Obama is a Muslim. I don’t think his is anymore than I am.

Having said that, I thought I read somewhere that his step father sent the former community organizer to a Madrassa or something similar during his time in Indonesia.

It’s a little different from a catholic school, no?

JC

6 Sep 10 at 2:46 pm
You could always find out what the word means yourself JC.

It means an educational institution of ANY KIND AT ALL.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 2:50 pm
I was thinking about our junta jefe, Julia.

If she does win the support of the ‘independents,’ she’ll go down in history as Australia’s first twice-unelected prime minister.

That’s something.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 2:52 pm
yes FDB
have a look at JC’s avatar and sinker’s.

See if you can spot the same avatar designs for when JC comments at Birdy’s site. it’s pretty fricking easy. You get assigned the same patterned design if you don’t haev an avatar. There is, as someone has noticed, more than one Philomena who comments at Bird’s site but the Philo over at LP is definitely the same as one of the Philos who has been playing with Bird at his site.

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 2:53 pm
JC,
He did not attend a Madrassa. He attended a public school (the same one that Bambang Suharto went to) and a Roman Catholic school – at least I assume that the St. Francis Xavier primary was a Roman Catholic school. I find it unlikely that it was a Madrassa.
There was a lot of BS about from the more strident loonies in the US that the government school in Jakarta was a Madrassa. It was not – and, at that stage at least, it would have been no more religious than our local primaries are now with a chaplain attached.
Things have changed a bit in the 40 years since then. After Suharto was kicked out the mullahs got a little more of a look in, but the chances that Suharto would have tolerated a primary school, let alone the one he sent his own son to, teaching or being in any way fundamentalist is zero.
He probably would have had anyone trying to force that on his children shot.

Andrew Reynolds

6 Sep 10 at 2:55 pm
jeez FDB
I’m starting to think you wouldn’t do very well on one of those culture fair IQ tests where you have to continue the pattern sequence

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 2:56 pm
I could well be wrong. It’s just been very very easy to spot Phil in the past.

The one at LP has weighed into numerous threads lately, as far as I can tell without picking a ridiculous fight on no basis or quoting Arabic poetry is all.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 2:56 pm
“The pattern randomly assigned by WordPress because she has no gravatar?”

It assigns it based on your email address so either someone has guessed philomena’s email or it her.

That and the fact the comment is completely in keeping with her. Phil always says denigrates the person in this case calling them “brutish” (often its “autistic” or mysoginistic), then goes on to talk about their lack of empathy.

Steve Edney

6 Sep 10 at 2:57 pm
OK sorry for being snide. you’re right, it’s not Jinmaro. I suspect the two are playing tag team with Bird

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 2:58 pm
FDB,
I just check the wiki – the school is called “Sekolah Dasar Negeri (SDN) Menteng 01″ which, translated (not from the Wiki, I can do this myself) is “National Primary School Menteng 01″.
It was not even called a Madrassa.
The other school was “St. Francis of Assisi School”, not, as I said, the St. Francis Xavier. Again, though – I doubt that this was a Madrassa either.

Andrew Reynolds

6 Sep 10 at 2:59 pm
Andrew Reynolds knows his Bahasa. He’s right.

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 3:00 pm
Terima kasih, Jason.

Andrew Reynolds

6 Sep 10 at 3:04 pm
Barry Soetoro’s school report:

“Religion: Islam.”

This was an AP photograph.

AP caption:

This registration document, made available on Jan. 24, 2007, by the Fransiskus Assisi school in Jakarta, Indonesia, shows the registration of Barack Obama under the name Barry Soetoro into the Catholic school made by his step-father, Lolo Soetoro. The document lists Barry Soetoro as a Indonesian citizen, born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, and shows his Muslim step-father listed the boy’s religion as Islam. (AP Photo/ Tatan Syuflana).

The form also proves – for those of a birther mindset – that Obama was a US citizen from birth.

Certainly Obama was a Muslim as a youngster.

Later he became a Christian – although the depth of that conversion is questionable given the hate-mongering rabble with whom he ‘worshipped’ for 20 years. I think the major reason he became a Christian was to enculturate himself into the African-American mainstream. And that’s not necessarily a wholly political motivation because he probably did have a need for belonging given his fatherhood-bereft and erratic early life.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 3:09 pm
Maybe it’s Fake Phil; friend of the American Dominoes eater, who didn’t like olives, and died in Italy when his bicycle rode over a cliff, after Phil had been carrying him on his shoulders for 250 km.

Peter Patton

6 Sep 10 at 3:12 pm
Andrew:

And here’s a pic of the future community organizer from a clipping in the school year book… Obama at , I reckon age 6 or 7 fully bearded and wearing a Muslim turban.

http://saberpoint.blogspot.com/2010/08/is-barack-obama-muslim.html

It’s pretty damning if I may say.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 3:12 pm
Yes all it shows is that he was registered as a Muslim because his step father was nominally a Muslim. He certainly didn’t go a madrassa which is a whole other claim altogether.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolo_Soetoro

olo Soetoro enrolled Obama into a Roman Catholic School in Indonesia, and identified Obama’s religion as “Islam.” At the time, the school most likely registered children based on the religion of their fathers, according to Obama’s 1st grade teacher, who indicated that Obama prayed at the school in the Catholic way, as did all of the students at the school

really the fact that Obama tea party activists are making such a big deal over this is not exactly a great ad for their cause. So his mother having been married to a non Christian foreigner who was so relaxed about his faith that he enrolled his kid in a Catholic school is a talking point now?

There are like 10,000 other reasons for criticing Obama.

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 3:15 pm
The fact is Obama is probably an atheist or an agnostic if that’s relevant. One of the men his mother slept with being a Muslim version of an Episcopalian isn’t worth a hill of beans,

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 3:17 pm
Jase.

The pic is incontrovertible evidence of Obama at a young age, fully bearded and “turbaned” up to the 9′s.

———–

On a less serious note, who is peddling this story. Are the Tea party dudes?

JC

6 Sep 10 at 3:18 pm
On an even more serious note… or less serious depending on your point of view (because I’m finding this to be hilarious).

Congressional Demolitionist candidates are now campaigning by hiding which party they belong to. They’re running away from being
Democrats. Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhaha

It’s no longer a political party but a poor excuse for a joke.

CBS Congressional correspondent Nancy Cordes said the Democrats are distancing themselves from President Obama.

“Not only are they running away from President Obama, they’re running away from being Democrats in some cases. In some races you actually see the Democratic candidates not really mentioning that they’re a Democrat in their campaign ads,” Cordes said.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 3:25 pm
There are like 10,000 other reasons for criticing Obama.

Sure there are Jason, but those 10,000 other reasons are not an absolute slam-dunk way to get him kicked out of office, whereas proving he is a muslim absolutely would be.

He’s probably going to lose anyway, but if it came out that he was actually a muslim he’d be a dead set certainly to lose. That’s why it’s so important for the right to prove he is. They are just making themselves look stupid in this idiotic crusade though.

Yobbo

6 Sep 10 at 3:25 pm
“On a less serious note, who is peddling this story. Are the Tea party dudes?”

Yes.

Or, if you prefer to live in CLala-land, “no”.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 3:25 pm
On a more serious note… or less serious depending on you point of view because I’m finding this to be hilarious.

Congressional Demolitionist candidates are now campaigning by hiding which party they belong to.

They’re running away from being Democrats.

It’s no longer a political party but a poor excuse for a joke.

CBS Congressional correspondent Nancy Cordes said the Democrats are distancing themselves from President Obama.

“Not only are they running away from President Obama, they’re running away from being Democrats in some cases. In some races you actually see the Democratic candidates not really mentioning that they’re a Democrat in their campaign ads,” Cordes said.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 3:26 pm
C.L.,
IIRC my father was registered as a Roman Catholic at school because his father, like many of my relatives, was a Roman Catholic. That does not mean that he was one.
.
Exactly, Jason. There is plenty of other crap on Obama (like, for example, he has made an enormous hash of the economy) rather than trying to talk up an incorrect and meaningless point about what his religious beliefs (if any) were when he was a child.

Andrew Reynolds

6 Sep 10 at 3:27 pm
Yobbo’s right.

The right need to prove he’s a Muslim to get him out of office.

Communicating policy ideas is too hard. Let’s not get started on thinking them up.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 3:27 pm
FDB

The one link you gave was to some dude that was later expelled from the Tea party movement which is might dishonest of you.

Who else?

JC

6 Sep 10 at 3:27 pm
Obama is most definitely going to lose.

Even Tillman isn’t defending him anymore.

Some of the greatest crises in US history and he plays golf, buys shrimp and redecorates the White House in brown?

FMD, at least a radical Muslim would have more energy

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 3:30 pm
Look the polls show that a large number of Americans think he’s a Muslim.

If you know the US well, you’d realize that for the large majority there nothing exists beyond the shores of the East and west coast.

Not only are they ignorant, they just don’t give rats. So if Americans read that he grew up in Indonesia then the fact that he’s a Muslim just rolls off the tongue because after 911 they learnt that Indonesia was a Muslim country and they’re making this connection.

Indonesia is a far away place to the average American and they know shit and iunderstand about the place.

It’s nothing to get worked up about.

It’s up to Obama to explain top people that he indeed not a Muslim and he should raise this issue every day before the mid term elections.

That way I’m sure he’d placate people’s concerns about him being a Muslim

JC

6 Sep 10 at 3:35 pm
Recreation and dilly-dallying at times of crisis didn’t lose GWB any elections Jase.

I agree he’ll probably lose though.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 3:35 pm
If Obama truly was born a Muslim wouldn’t the splodies have issued a fatwa on his life by now?

Peter Patton

6 Sep 10 at 3:36 pm
Steve sailer’s coverage of Obama has been pretty interesting. sailer thinks Obama is actually bored with the job and doesn’t really give a shit if he loses.

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 3:40 pm
Really? Steve S think s that?

I’ve been thinking that for a while now , as he’s behaving like he wants to get the most from being Prez such as cheap vacations etc. because he knows he’s getting the boot in a coupla years.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 3:45 pm
Just tossing another:

What does Barry Obama believe in ?

entry into the mix

I was interested when this story of Barry’s early college days appeared on Breitbart:

http://www.academia.org/obama-a-college-marxist-2/

The gentleman concerned, John Drew, was most emphatic that Barry was a fervant chardonnay marxist ( mixed metaphor alert ) before heading off to law school.

And by this I am not presuming to suggest that Barry remains some sort of Hugo Chavez deep cover plant.
“Hi guys – remind me again where the nuclear launch codes are !?”

More that he has drifted through a life of some considerable socio-political extremes, and yet at the end of the day is actually a passionate advocate of – what, golf and the Hamptons ?

Probably the more damning critique that can be made is that he is a lifetime member of the New Class Professional Left stepping through the careerist ladder almost rudderless.

Myrddin Seren

6 Sep 10 at 3:48 pm
They are just making themselves look stupid in this idiotic crusade though.

Who is “they”, Yobbo?

Ninety percent of what you read about Obama being a Muslim is lefties accusing others of accusing Obama being a Muslim.

It’s political gamesmanship – as we’ve seen today with the HuffPo/FDB beclowning.

See also the claim that Tea Party “racists” called John Lewis a “nigger” and Barney Frank a “faggot” during their walk to the Capitol.

Small problem: it never happened.

Andrew Breitbart’s $100,000 reward for any video or audio proving otherwise (there were cameras and phones there by the hundreds) remains unclaimed.

There is a fringe of loonies interested in Obama’s birth certificate – which, oddly, nobody is allowed to see in the original – but these are far outnumbered by the 9/11 troofers and Trig Palin tragics on the left.

As I said above, Trig trooferism is given a place of honour at no less an organ than the Atlantic. If there is a comparably respectable organ of the right which publishes material about Barack Hussein Obama being a secret Muslim (week in and week out), I’d be interested to know which one.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 3:50 pm
More evidence of a democratic trouncing

You know a political party is in trouble when the opposing party is using pics of you with the current prez and the family sends out angry letters denouncing it. Lol

The family of the late Robert C. Byrd is angry after the GOP nominee for his U.S. Senate seat included an image from Byrd’s West Virginia memorial service in a TV attack ad.

But the campaign of Republican John Raese is defending its use of the image. The image shows President Barack Obama sitting with Gov. Joe Manchin at the state Capitol service.

The ad seeks to tie Obama to Manchin, the Democrat running to fill the remainder of Byrd’s term. The ad claims Manchin would support Obama’s policies — namely the health care overhaul — while Raese would not.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 3:51 pm
Certainly Obama was a Muslim as a youngster.

Actually, it’s not certain. Since Obama was a child, the form was filled out by an adult. An adult Muslim male, not related to the child but knowing the father of the child was a Muslim would have assumed that the child was a Muslim – regardless of the views of the non-Muslim mother. It’s the way things are done here.

If you want to marry a Muslim girl, except in rare liberal-minded pan-Arabist secular families, then yiou MUST convert to Islam. But If a Muslim male wants to marry a Jew or Christian or Buddhist then the religion of the woman is deemed to be irrelevant. The child is assumed to be a Muslim.

History has shown that whatever some step-father wrote on a small child’s school form, Obama identifies himself as a (probably agnostic or atheist, lapsed) Christian.

Karl quacked on rather arrogantly about Islam in his posts, but the fact is I speak the language of the Koran, and I live here and he doesn’t.

Risible.

Ev630

6 Sep 10 at 3:52 pm
The right need to prove he’s a Muslim to get him out of office.

LOL.

Mmmyes, it all hinges on that.

Incidentally FDB, you wrote this on the Climate thread:

Ultimately what she’s written does nothing but give succour to those who think that because “everyone’s entitled to their own opinion” you can make up whichever one you like, on whatever basis you like, and ignore all the evidence that you’re wrong, and everyone still has to be nice to you and include you in some mythical “debate”.

If it’s absurd why don’t you apologise to the readers here – and me, specifically – for falsely claiming that Mark Williams is a Tea Party leader?

Or will you ignore all the evidence that you’re wrong?

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 3:55 pm
No you are all wrong and Bird is right. The Malcolm X connection nails it

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/how-to-make-a-lot-of-money-on-the-stock-market-right-now/#comment-32507

He’s a product of Islamic sponsorship going back at least 30 years. This is just a fact which can be readily proven. Its something that is not even worth being irrationally and moronically in denial about. You will be irrationally and moronically in denial about this point. But its really not worthwhile. Now these Islamic bigshots would hardly have continued to back him had he not retained his loyalties to the cause. Case closed.

The other thing is that if he is Malcolms boy, Malcolm, and those who would have wanted to push his legacy, may well have ensured he was brought up right. After all first-borns don’t tend to stray too far from their upbringing.

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 3:56 pm
The child is assumed to be a Muslim.

Right.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 3:58 pm
I see Bird/Karl has seen through me too

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/how-to-make-a-lot-of-money-on-the-stock-market-right-now/#comment-32510

isn’t it just uncanny how agent-of-influence Soon always gets hard down to work to support a leftist strategic position.

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 4:02 pm
Bird has moderated me.. a sad thing I know, but can someone go over there and inform the idiot that Obama could be a closet high church of England adherent and if he’s still running like this he’ll lose all 50 states in a sweep.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 4:06 pm
The child is assumed to be a Muslim.

Right.

So your response is, “stop right there. No further thought required.”

I was hoping for a longer post ending with the word ‘fail’.

Ev630

6 Sep 10 at 4:12 pm
Jason,
Thanks – the link was worth it for the comic value.
On Obama losing – I think it depends on who the Republicans put up against him. If it is some nut job then he may have a chance. If it someone remotely electable then he will probably lose. It could still happen that he Democrats may try to rescue themselves in the primaries.

Andrew Reynolds

6 Sep 10 at 4:14 pm
The child is assumed to be a Muslim.

You’re right.

You now agree with me.

Thanks.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 4:16 pm
Even a nutjob would have a chance in 2012.

Obama himself proves that.

Two years is a long time in politics, though.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 4:18 pm
What for, should have been the next question.

As in, what would the bouncers would have called the cops on us for?

“Failing to leave a licensed premises when asked”. It being a real crime, I have been fined for it before.

Of course we had already left, and only returned after seeing the bouncers attack an innocent patron. But that wouldn’t matter to the cops. If you’ve been drinking, you are guilty of whatever the bouncers say you have done, end of story.

Yobbo

6 Sep 10 at 4:18 pm
Some bouncers are dodgy bastards. Ok, maybe most of them.

One night c8to and I were out drinking and decided to go back to my place for a final round of whisky and talk when we came across this large bouncer literally carrying this girl in her arms against her will while a mob of her friends followed behind protesting.

We go up to the scene to find out what’s happening and the bouncer claims that the drunk girl had vandalised some pictures at the bar he was guarding and that he was carrying her to the Surry Hills police station (which is near my place) because she refused to stay put while he called the cops.

Seeing such a huge crowd of people now gathered around him the bouncer then decides to put the girl down and pisses off.

Now the girl was pissed as anything and it’s entirely possible she had vandalised the bar but for all we knew he could’ve been carrying her off to a dark corner to rape her.

jtfsoon

6 Sep 10 at 4:26 pm
If you’ve been drinking, you are guilty of whatever the bouncers say you have done, end of story.

Yeah. Cops are dumb. They just pay attention to people with uniforms. Bouncers. What fine upstanding types they are.

Adrien

6 Sep 10 at 4:40 pm
“falsely claiming that Mark Williams is a Tea Party leader”

I never did so. I merely linked to an article which debunked your initial claim that only fringe lunatics on the right cared about the Obama=Muslim thing, and that the Tea Party didn’t.

Now you’re going to claim that because the current leadership of the Tea Party (such as exists at least) don’t constantly bang on about it, then you must be correct. But that would be to fondly hope nobody remembers your initial claim.

Which was false, right?

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 4:40 pm
I think it’s worse than that. Obama ran for office in the belief that the current system would continue with indefinite ~3% economic growth into the future, enough to redistribute plenty of goodies to his constituents, tinker with the economy a bit, tick off a few items on the Democratic wishlist, working on building a permanent Democratic majority and basking in the glow of his unquestionable brilliance. That was probably what he had in mind.

Then he stepped into the White House and a bunch of Wall Street guys told him the whole thing was only months (or a couple of years at best) from falling apart and that a) there was absolutely nothing he could do about it b) if he went after the top end of town, they’d destroy him in an instant.

So no more of this kind of coverage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlF-ChDdvlk

Michael Fisk

6 Sep 10 at 4:42 pm
“What fine upstanding ~~types~~ ex-cops and/or failed cops they are.”

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 4:43 pm
As expected: the beclowned FDB won’t apologise.

Ultimately what she’s written does nothing but give succour to those who think that because “everyone’s entitled to their own opinion” you can make up whichever one you like, on whatever basis you like, and ignore all the evidence that you’re wrong, and everyone still has to be nice to you and include you in some mythical “debate”.

One blog, two FDBs.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 4:47 pm
Apologise for what, you weirdo?

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 4:50 pm
C.L.,
Many people can assume many things. Those assumptions, though, should not be treated as a certainty, as you have done.
“Certainly Obama was a Muslim as a youngster.”

Andrew Reynolds

6 Sep 10 at 4:55 pm
When CL said the following:

“There are some people on the fringes who care but the Tea Party couldn’t care less”

was CL wrong or not?

In light of my link to what the leader of the Tea Party said on the record in an interview, I believe CL was substantively wrong.

I was right that the Tea Party isn’t interested in the Obama-as-Muslim weirdness. You were 100 percent wrong to claim that Mark Williams (?) is – or ever was – “the leader of the Tea Party” and 100 percent beclowned to be unware of the fact that the Tea Party, officially, wants nothing to do with Williams.

I still await the Democrat Party’s decision to distance itself from Harry Reid and Joe Biden.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 4:56 pm
CL – I did a 30-second search-and-link. I just linked to the top result.

Anyhoo, why do you draw any distinction at all between “The Tea Party” and “some people on the fringes”?

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 4:59 pm
FDB on the climate thread:

False accusation, ‘backed up’ by a quote showing no such thing.

Well you’d know. You ‘backed up’ an argument with a false accusation from Huffington Post.

Retraction please. Your beclowning is sticking out here like – how did you put it on the climate thread? – oh yeah: like dog’s balls.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 5:01 pm
I humbly retract my assertion that Mark Williams was ever the leader of the Tea Party. I moreover apologise for doing so on the basis of the first google result that came to hand. Lazy me.

Now about the actual matter at hand…

1) The Tea Party membership are mostly nutjobs.

2) Heaps of them believe crazy bullshit (see 1).

3) One of the crazy-bullshit things heaps of them believe is that Obama’s religious history as a small child is a really really important thing to be getting worked up about.

Any comments, CL?

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 5:36 pm
Hey FDB, that’s classic trolling.
Can’t you be a bit more subtle than that?

ken n

6 Sep 10 at 5:38 pm
FDB

And a large number of left-wingers thought 911 was an inside job. So dare you complain about anyone else when the leader of the party you voted for-Bob Brown- Australian Greens- was/is a troofer.

How dare you complain about anyone else.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 5:40 pm
Trolling?

I don’t think that word means etc etc…

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 5:41 pm
JC – you’ve lost me.

FDB

6 Sep 10 at 5:42 pm
The Tea Party membership are mostly nutjobs.

Well hail the nutjobs ’cause someone’s gotta do something about the US government. It’s a monster and it’s gonna eat the world.

Adrien

6 Sep 10 at 6:09 pm
So we’re all agreed that Obama is currently a practising Muslim?

Michael Fisk

6 Sep 10 at 7:53 pm
Liar, statist, and right-wing stooge Noel Pearson gets the bollocking he thoroughly deserves in this excellent article:

http://web.overland.org.au/previous-issues/issue-200/feature-chris-graham/

THR

6 Sep 10 at 8:24 pm
Not much of a bollocking. It sounds like you wrote it i.e. appeals to evils of his white-man education and lack of connection to the ‘true’ aboriginal people rather than drawing some solid factual conclusion. I didn’t read in detail but it didn’t seem to mention the actual amounts of money, in toto and per capita, that have been spent on indigenous people.

Also, I don’t believe Pearson ever embraced Howard. He was still calling him a racist when I last heard him speak on the Wild Rivers issue.

Michael Sutcliffe

6 Sep 10 at 8:42 pm
THR

Indeed.Must keep these uppity Uncle Tom coconuts in their place, hey what!

Peter Patton

6 Sep 10 at 8:49 pm
There was this, Sutcliffe:

Yet the Northern Territory intervention – modelled, say Pearson and Brough, on the Cape York reforms – has been an unmitigated disaster. A progress report released late last year by the Rudd government revealed that school attendance had actually dropped since the intervention was launched. But violence had increased, as had suicides. A $670 million housing program that had expended almost $150 million had provided no new housing. And there was no evidence of widespread sexual abuse of Aboriginal children, the very reason for the intervention in the first place.

THR

6 Sep 10 at 8:50 pm
3) One of the crazy-bullshit things heaps of them believe is that Obama’s religious history as a small child is a really really important thing to be getting worked up about

Well, let’s face it, FDB, it’s more than that. He describes Islam as a “revealed religion” – which in theology-speak means that he thinks it contains metaphysical truths revealed by God.
He celebrates Ramadan and describes Islam as a “Great religion.”
He mocks Christians.
He has described the Muslim call to prayer as the sweetest sound he ever heard.

So this “is Obama a Muslim” thing is not about his childhood, it’s about Obama the man. Personally I don’t think he’s a Muslim; he simply finds aspects of that religion somewhat appealing at some level.

daddy dave

6 Sep 10 at 9:08 pm
A progress report released late last year by the Rudd government…

LOL. The Rudd government measuring the progress of something. This is the government that failed to build any of the housing it promised for Aborigines and burned down 200 houses – with four fatalities – in less than three years.

Who wrote the Overland piece?

Chris Graham is a Walkley Award-winning journalist, the media and marketing director at the NSW Aboriginal Land Council.

A stooge of the status quo.

Overland subtitle:

Telling whites what they want to hear
Chris Graham on the trouble with Noel Pearson.

So white man Graham is launching an attack on an Aborigine for his white urban readers.

Nice.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 9:09 pm
Actually, Graham generally writes for the Aboriginal media.

But nice try at avoiding the facts with an ad hom smear.

THR

6 Sep 10 at 9:10 pm
One of the crazy-bullshit things heaps of them believe is that Obama’s religious history as a small child is a really really important thing to be getting worked up about.

Enter “THEM”.

Also known as THEY.

Far more bizarre is the US left’s doubts about Trig Palin being Sarah’s son. Trig trooferism is given a place of honour at no less an organ than the Atlantic. If there is a comparably respectable organ of the right which publishes material about Barack Hussein Obama being a secret Muslim on a regular basis, I’d be interested to know which one.

I’m still waiting.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 9:11 pm
…Graham generally writes for the Aboriginal media.

So he really is targeting a white audience for his anti-coconut hitpiece.

Nice.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 9:13 pm
Still smear in lieu of rebuttal…

THR

6 Sep 10 at 9:14 pm
I didn’t read in detail but it didn’t seem to mention the actual amounts of money, in toto and per capita, that have been spent on indigenous people.

Several years back someone sent me an email that claimed that we spend $48000 per aborigine per year on aboriginal “help”. Even if it were half that figure we could save a fortune just be sending each aborigine a cheque for that amount and say “you’re on your own”. NO churn, no special services, just a cheque each month.

Over 20 years ago I read a report on aboriginal communities and decided that until such time as that disaster occurring in those communities was addressed all the rest, from land rights to apologies to services, was just pissing in the wind. That is obvious, a dysfunctional community is not repaired with money it is repaired by individuals within those communities.

We have been very stupid because we have told aborigines we can solve their problems. Dumb. Yep, the Left can carry the can on that one. Even the very idea of preserving their traditional culture whilst expecting them to integrate into ours is hopelessly naive. Human beings are not that flexible.

John H.

6 Sep 10 at 9:34 pm
A smear is a white man telling white liberals that a disobedient Aborigine is only “Telling whites what they want to hear.”

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 9:37 pm
“Aboriginal Media” – I’ll bet it’s not the Borooloola Bugle or the Walgett Warbler. Most likely it’s a university newsletter.

Infidel Tiger

6 Sep 10 at 9:40 pm
Except that Pearson isn’t ‘disobedient’. He’s rather servile when it comes to supporting the Stalinist ‘interventions’ of Howard, Abbott and co. Turns out that said interventions actually made things worse. It’s no biggie for Pearson, however, since he didn’t advocate the same punitive measures for his own community.

THR

6 Sep 10 at 9:42 pm
THR

Notice how you not only get excited when a middle-class WHITE guy starts hurling the Uncle Tom Coconut shit at an actual Aborigine. But you wait until he is published by another middle class WHITE Trotskyist.

You are a fucking racist disgrace in the league of the Lefty Kims and that ‘Alice’ from p.kwig’n – she called him Benelong FFS.

Peter Patton

6 Sep 10 at 9:57 pm
Turns out that said interventions actually made things worse.

According to a Rudd government document.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 10:02 pm
I’m a ‘racist’? It’s you and CL who have been unable to refute Chris Graham, and who attempt to do so with reference to the guy’s skin colour.

Now, why anybody would support a heavy-handed government intervention in the NT on a libertarian site is beyond me. In any event, I always thought it mistaken at best, and a disgraceful political stunt at worst. Pearson’s role has been to act as little more than an alibi for Abbott and co whenever they want to invoke some punitive measure. If you think that opposition to this is racist, then you’re an idiot.

(BTW, I find it hilarious than on the climate thread, you defend pomo relativism, and here, you get all shrill and PC with shrieks of ‘racism’. Presumably you yourself were some culty-studies wannabe, who got a bad mark from a tutor or something).

THR

6 Sep 10 at 10:06 pm
THR,

Seriously, what can we do to help the aborigines? I don’t know but I’m happy to politely entertain any ideas.

John H.

6 Sep 10 at 10:24 pm
Maybe we should ask the aborigines what they want John H

tal

6 Sep 10 at 10:26 pm
I think they need economic integration. This is too general a statement to be useful in any way, but I think it’s a good guiding principle. Given the shortfall in resources in remote communities, some of these latter will probably prove unviable in the long-term, and should be abandoned.

THR

6 Sep 10 at 10:28 pm
“Now, why anybody would support a heavy-handed government intervention in the NT on a libertarian site is beyond me.”

Because the people doing so are conservative and/or right-wing, and not libertarian at all?

Jarrah

6 Sep 10 at 10:28 pm
Maybe we should ask the aborigines what they want John H

There’s also that…

THR

6 Sep 10 at 10:30 pm
The real question is: why did lefties oppose government intervention to help the poorest of the poor?

Answer: because Howard did it.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 10:33 pm
THR are you cranky with my suggestion? I can’t tell from your post

tal

6 Sep 10 at 10:35 pm
Katter was Q&A and had a real go at Wilkie for blabbing about his agreement with Abbott. HE suggested he was nothing abut a low rent rat.

The intellectual lioness of the senate, Christine Milne said that the Greens would look at the free trde agreements and suggestions changes and would also look at protection. Katter seemed t like that unfortunately.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 10:38 pm
Not cranky, tal. It’s a good idea. People think ‘self-determination’ is a big wank, and maybe it is, but realistically, it’s pretty much impossible to force somebody to settle down, fly right, etc.

THR

6 Sep 10 at 10:39 pm
Sinclair,

What’s the source of your quote by Marx:

“There is only one way to kill capitalism – by taxes, taxes, and more taxes.”

I’ve been googling it and I can’t find it, except quoted in anti-tax polemics without a citation. Could be a spurious quote. Marx actually supported the free market as a means of killing capitalism.

THR

6 Sep 10 at 10:44 pm
Marx actually supported the free market as a means of killing capitalism.

Very good. First one for the night. Best you stick to your knitting me thinks, pet.

Peter Patton

6 Sep 10 at 10:46 pm
Patton of the Wounded Narcissism,

Here you go:

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/01/09ft.htm

THR

6 Sep 10 at 10:50 pm
Victorian floods news… most flooding in 15 and in some places up to 30 years.

That’s just weather though and definitely not climate change. However if there are hardships because of too much water it can be considered as just part of climate change.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 10:54 pm
THR, all the self-determination in the world won’t help people who live in the middle of the desert where there is no economic activity.

If aboriginals want to be part of the economy, they need to live where the jobs are – in the city like everyone else.

Yobbo

6 Sep 10 at 10:54 pm
Jesus Christ. Spare me your sophomoric quote dumping. I read all that when I was a, er, sophomore.

Peter Patton

6 Sep 10 at 10:58 pm
How can you be “self-determining” on the dole?

Peter Patton

6 Sep 10 at 10:59 pm
I saw there is a movement for aboriginal kids becoming stockmen. That’s not a bad thing.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 11:02 pm
I put ‘self-determination’ in scare quotes as I don’t buy the concept. It makes more sense in the negative – intrusive, punitive, one-size-fits-all government interventions can never lifted individuals or communities out of misery. I don’t think you can shift outback communities to the city en masse. For starters, Aboriginals in the cities have problems of the own, suggesting that location can’t be the only factor. Secondly, there’d be a risk of creating ghettoes which would be as bad, or worse, than the worst of current rural settings.

THR

6 Sep 10 at 11:02 pm
Dubai’s Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum and Russia’s Roman Abramovich are having a <a href="brawl over who's got the biggest one. The Sheik is adding 24 inches and Abramovich is said to have exaggerated the length of his.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 11:05 pm
Oops:

Dubai’s Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum and Russia’s Roman Abramovich are having a <a href="brawl over who's got the biggest one. The Sheik is adding 24 inches and Abramovich is said to have exaggerated the length of his.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 11:07 pm
Whatever.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 11:08 pm
Cl

We went on a vacation on a Caribbean island several months ago where Abramovich has a 75 acre spread on the water beside a beautiful public beach there.

The public road leading to the beach runs on his compound and he was trying to but it off thereby making that entire beach his own.

Wodge would love the guy.

JC

6 Sep 10 at 11:12 pm
Big donors switching their cash outlays to GOP.

Major political action committees and employees of the nation’s largest business empires have dramatically shifted their money to the right.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/major-democratic-donors-shift-donations/

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 11:34 pm
“The real question is: why did lefties oppose government intervention to help the poorest of the poor? Answer: because Howard did it.”

Assuming you mean the NT intervention, there are a host of reasons why lefties (and others) opposed it. They can be broadly classified as objections to the rationale, the implementation, and the continuation (which also applies to Labor). It’s the facts of the matter that condemn Howard, rather than Howard’s involvement that condemns the action.

Jarrah

6 Sep 10 at 11:34 pm
Sounds like Abe has a good life, the lucky bastard!

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 11:34 pm
That’s not how I remember it, Jarrah. Over at the LP coconut express, it was being vehemently DENOUNCED mostly because lefties objected to evil Howard doing something for the black man.

After all, the left owns the black man.

C.L.

6 Sep 10 at 11:37 pm
“I put ‘self-determination’ in scare quotes as I don’t buy the concept.”

Right, except for when as Lenin ordered, for you to murder the industrialists.

Fuck me you’re a bright bloke but you’re totally blinkered by a bunk, poisonous and violent ideology.

.

6 Sep 10 at 11:45 pm
The left denounced it because the left believe that the only answer to the Aboriginal issue is more welfare, less mining and more self-flagellation.

Yobbo

6 Sep 10 at 11:50 pm
And good results abound do they not Yobbo?

tal

7 Sep 10 at 12:04 am
Tal, what do you think of the Abe’s rolled oat?

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 12:09 am
Lad your link is not working

tal

7 Sep 10 at 12:16 am
Yeah it is!

But here ya go:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/executive-lifestyle/dubai-ruler-maktoum-to-reclaim-mega-yacht-crown-from-roman-abramovich/story-e6frg9zo-1225914451034

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 12:27 am
What a pic with this story:

Babies fed french fries and cake: study.

They also mention biscuits. I thought the odd bikkie was OK for babies.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 12:30 am
“it was being vehemently DENOUNCED mostly because lefties objected to evil Howard doing something for the black man.”

Yeah, right. Whatever. What happened to the old CL?

Jarrah

7 Sep 10 at 12:35 am
Which “Old CL” is that, Fatfingers?

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 12:40 am
The child is assumed to be a Muslim.

You’re right.

You now agree with me.

Thanks.

Interesting that you didn’t quote my entire post. The point that Obama isn’t a Muslim appears to have been lost with that selective line. Why ever would you do such a thing?

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 12:53 am
Nobody has said Obama IS a Muslim.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 12:57 am
The non-rabid one. The one whose strong views weren’t largely expressed as manic denunciations of supposed enemies. The one who mostly engaged with topics instead of resorting to cheap mendacity.

I think you’re spreading yourself too thin, old bean. Maybe that’s it. Before, you didn’t need to expend your energies on umpteen posts about Obama and Democrats and Rudd and Labor, because you had Bush and Howard, and defence of the latter two was less time-consuming than attacking their successors has proven to be.

Jarrah

7 Sep 10 at 1:11 am
Wow so the government has less income from the mining tax. Who would ever have thought that was possible.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/julia-gillard-mine-tax-to-deliver-8bn-less-than-forecast/story-e6frg6nf-1225915027552

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:17 am
C.L.,
…the child is assumed – meaning there is no real evidence for your contention that Obama was a Muslim.
Just an assumption made decades ago by a step-father who really seems not to have cared about religion at all.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 1:34 am
Someone should tell Karl. He seemed to strongly think BO was a Muslim and had lied about it. Too bad he’s not here, as I think he would take this new information very reasonably and graciously.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 1:40 am
Jarrah, I remember when you were Fatfingers and you’d wheel out the exact same vaudeville when you were angry and repudiated. You’d harken back to some olden time of amity – when we could all get along – but imply that all of that came to an end because someone had the temerity to disagree with you. Please spare me the pseudo-seriousness. It’s very lame.

And posting ad hoc, casual comments at Catallaxy hardly spreads my talents thin. You apparently run a blog and comment at several other sites as well. I don’t know how you do it.

Tonight’s dummy spit was caused by my accurate depiction of the motivation of the leftist commentariat when Howard launched the intervention. Its principals were outraged because 1) they worried (vainly) that it could invigorate his electoral prospects; and 2) in a milieu like Larvatus Prodeo (where Noel Pearson is a “coconut”), there was a stock-standard reaction of outrage that Howard was doing something for blacks (blacks, of course, being the property of the left’s reservation).

That’s the way I see it. Your ‘No You’re Lying’ response isn’t much of a rebuttal.

Emotionally, you give the game away when you mention “Obama and Democrats and Rudd and Labor.” Well yes, my man, for three years these have been the two governments of the two most widely discussed polities in Australian blogospherical discourse. And of course you’re wrong when you say that criticising these governments is more time-consuming. I spent much, much more time writing essays and blogging the news in the Bush-Howard years.

When you use theatrical adjectives like “rabid” and “manic” you are, of course, projecting. I do not now – nor have I ever – spent any time denouncing “enemies.” I strongly criticise public figures but I don’t regard any of them as my “enemies” and my disposition towards life and the world remains sunny regardless of this day’s vicissitudes in the world of politics. So that too is a projection which says more about you than me.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:00 am
Just an assumption made decades ago by a step-father who really seems not to have cared about religion at all.

Do you have any evidence it was an assumption?

Do you have proof he didn’t care about religion at all?

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:03 am
Do you have any proof Obama is a Muslim and lied about it?

Put a fork in it, it’s done.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 2:15 am
I don’t now, nor have I ever, believed Obama is a Muslim or that he has ever “lied” about being a Muslim.

Have you been drinking, Ev?

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:28 am
Not yet.

CL, it is not my fault nor concern that you have strayed into an argument I was having with Karl and that you have since forgotten the key issue being argued between the two of us. Perhaps in future you need to consider whether there’s any point to lending your pachydermal gravitas in defense of a clown like Karl.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 2:39 am
No, Ev. The subject began in Saturday with my link to Ann Coulter’s amusing essay, “Obama Is Not A Muslim.”

I haven’t ‘defended’ Bird’s well-known matrix of conspiracies and ideas about Obama and his religion, his origins etc. A lie.

On the minor question of whether Obama was a Muslim, I pointed out that, indeed, he was and also that he became – and remains – professedly a Christian.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:50 am
Well, then clearly my argument was and is with Karl/Bird. Thread drift is unfortunate. As I look back on this exchange, fondly, I shall recall that you seemed to latch onto the Obama discussion as a means to distract from your unwillingness to acknowledge the fact that Christianity is anthropocentric (since to do so would only acknowledge Hawking has a point). I will also note that Peter Patton was gently led in his first baby steps towards accepting the fact.

Any final denials before I draw a veil over this scene? Ideally, I’d appreciate a post ending in the word fail.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 3:01 am
“The point that Obama isn’t a Muslim appears to have been lost with that selective line.”

Prove it. You cannot make him a Christian against his will.

Pedro

7 Sep 10 at 3:50 am
Ev630. You’ve been insisting that you know that Obama was never a Muslim. You have said that the very idea is risible. Now you are claiming that you know he is not a Muslim now. Where is your evidence for either of these propositions?

It hardly matters what is going on in your mind. We are talking about something out there in the real world. Something not even in this country. Now how is it that you think you know this thing? Given that it would require you to be psychic for you to know?
[Please choose a slightly different user name, eg Pedro II, to avoid confusion with an existing regular Pedro. Sinc]

Pedro

7 Sep 10 at 4:52 am
Is Bird impersonating Pedro because
1) that is a different avatar design
2) it definitely doesn’t sound like the pedro we know

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 8:54 am
Yeah this is a classic bird piece of rhetoric.

“It hardly matters what is going on in your mind. We are talking about something out there in the real world. “

Steve Edney

7 Sep 10 at 9:03 am
This Pedro isn’t ‘our’ Pedro – the avatar is unique to each address. (So those of you who come in on dfferent addresses will have different avatars). Not sure that it is Bird, yet.

Sinclair Davidson

7 Sep 10 at 9:14 am
what Steve said

1) accusing the other party of solipsism is classic Birdianism
2) as is the accusation that the other party is claiming to be psychic
3) as is the starting a question with ‘Given’

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 9:18 am
By all means, Ev.

Your dishonesty in trying to re-work Obama’s Islamic boyhood as proof that I believe he is a secret Muslim now…

Fail.

Your amusing attempt to salvage Hawking’s dopey thesis about God creating the universe “just to please us”…

Fail.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 9:34 am
Stand by for a lefty lynching:

Pearson backs Abbott.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 9:47 am
JC,

That is a costing flaw. Where is the media outrage?

43bn + 8bn.

Gillard has a $51 bn black hole, not to mention the $75 bn black hole in the economy thatnks to the stimulus – (bank lending to Government and cumulative debt have icnreased that much and bank assets and private lending have gone down that much).

Busted.

.

7 Sep 10 at 10:13 am
“theatrical adjectives”

I overuse adjectives. It’s a weakness in my writing that I struggle with. But don’t try to claim your choice of words are in any way non-theatrical: “angry and repudiated”, “dummy spit”, “accurate depiction”, etc.

“Your ‘No You’re Lying’ response isn’t much of a rebuttal.”

Mine? This from the widely acknowledged master of that tactic. And of course it falsely characterises the substantive part of my comment:

Assuming you mean the NT intervention, there are a host of reasons why lefties (and others) opposed it. They can be broadly classified as objections to the rationale, the implementation, and the continuation (which also applies to Labor). It’s the facts of the matter that condemn Howard, rather than Howard’s involvement that condemns the action.

“projecting…So that too is a projection”

And what are we to read into your frequent appeal to projection? LOL

“And posting ad hoc, casual comments at Catallaxy hardly spreads my talents thin.”

Since the quality of your contributions has diminished, I think it does. You used to put more effort in. I’m sure plenty here at Catallaxy remember the link-fests whenever you were trying to prove a point about other commenters. Now there’s little research, just assertions, like the laughable ones above about the “motivations” of people you’ve never met.

It’s a sign of rhetorical fragility to cast aspersions on the supposed intentions and mindsets of others, rather than dealing with their actual arguments.

Jarrah

7 Sep 10 at 10:29 am
This from the widely acknowledged master of that tactic.

Nobody goes to more trouble to rebut an argument with evidence, links, quotations etc than I do. So you’re again being dishonest, theatrical and silly.

Since the quality of your contributions has diminished…

Ooh, next you’ll be saying I have no friends in the schoolyard. What an embarrassing tanty you’re throwing because I accurately described the left’s response to John Howard’s intervention.

… the people [who supported the intervention to save Aboriginal children] are conservative and/or right-wing, and not libertarian at all.

- Night Jarrah

It’s a sign of rhetorical fragility to cast aspersions on the supposed intentions and mindsets of others, rather than dealing with their actual arguments.

- Morning Jarrah

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 10:38 am
“Stand by for a lefty lynching”

Oh goody, when and where can we lynch some lefties.

Rococo Liberal

7 Sep 10 at 10:38 am
Oh goody, when and where can we lynch some lefties.

It’s a new attraction at Warner Bros Movie World: 10am, Noon, 2 and 4pm – daily.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 10:45 am
That’s the way I see it. Your ‘No You’re Lying’ response isn’t much of a rebuttal.

It’s not a rebuttal it’s an accurate assessment of your rhetorical technique 90% of the time. Malebolge is nice this time of year.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 10:47 am
Nobody goes to more trouble to rebut an argument with evidence, links, quotations etc than I do. The Minnow Strategem – swimming into a debate as an ideological leech to seek revenge – is a speciality of Adrien, FDB and Jarrah. ‘Oh look, someone’s having a stoush with CL – I’ll weigh in with “No, You’re Lying’.”

Adrien is still pathologically furious because I highlighted some of the truly disgusting things you’ve written here – not all of them, alas, available for review post-Catallaxy crash. They include your defence of the Mumbai murderers – for which you were ridiculed and castigated by everyone (including then editor Jason Soon) – and your defence of child rapist Roman Polanski.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 11:03 am
Nobody goes to more trouble to rebut an argument with evidence, links, quotations etc than I do. T

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You really believe that don’t you Cane Toad Man?

And then of course you proceed to run out the same old tired things I haven’t actually said. You forgot to mention my ‘adoration’ of Kevin Rudd btw.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 11:10 am
So, the usual suspects tell us that the intervention was wrong, because, well because, er um, actually giving Aboriginal people direct help is so, like patronising, man.

What Aboriginal people really need is symbolic help, you know, like people saying thanks to the local tribe for the land before a meeting or flying Aboriginal flags from public buildings or even Native Title, which can’t be sold or exploited. What they don’t need is actual material assistance. Aboriginal people aren’t real people anyway, man, they are just victims who must always be thankful to those of us enlightened enough to see that it is more important to live authentically than to live in comfort. After all modern health is just an invention of hidebound medicos who close their minds to alternative medicine.

Rococo Liberal

7 Sep 10 at 11:28 am
C.L.,
You were the one that asserted that he was a Muslim as a child. The sum total of the evidence that you have linked to is the one form that was unearthed decades later, and not even written by him, when he went to a Roman Catholic school as a child.
He has been consistent that he was never a Muslim. If so, it is up to you to prove that he was lying.
One additional thing I should add at this point is that, under Suharto, it was actually an offence not to be a member of one of the 5 permitted religions (Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism or IIRC Shinto) as a way to find the “godless” commies so they could be imprisoned and executed.
His stepfather, therefore, had to put one of the five down.
Since he was himself nominally a Muslim and Obama’s father was nominally a Muslim it would have just made sense to put down “Muslim” in the “Agama” (Religion) field. That does not mean he was a Muslim and is no basis for your earlier assertion.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 11:29 am
Aboriginal people aren’t real people anyway, man, they are just victims

Like, wow! Go home and tell yer old lady Bird lives.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 11:31 am
“What they don’t need is actual material assistance.”

What they need is people to fuck off and leave them alone. How dare the Greens lock up their natural resources like the northern rivers?

.

7 Sep 10 at 11:32 am
How dare the Greens lock up their natural resources like the northern rivers?

What gets me is that they won’t even discuss it. It’s one of their three-thousand no-go zones. The problem it’s a difficult decision. They want to do the right thing by the aboriginies. They want to do the right thing by the environment, the right thing politically.

The Apology did the PR job for the Aborigines Are Sacred crew and this is Q’ld mate. There’s no votes in boongs up ‘ere. Screw ‘em.

I can understand why you’d want to preserve wild rivers. It might even be that important. But the ALP had an opportunity that year and they blew it. They’re over there right now and doing their ‘let’s show of my factoids game’.

But whatever you don’t mention them wild rivers.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 11:59 am
Andrew,

I thought people nominated Muslim as a matter of course, even if they were Hindu!

.

7 Sep 10 at 12:06 pm
My parents put me down as Buddhist in Malaysia though none of us were vegetarian or could’ve claimed to have read any Buddhist texts firsthand. Religious identification in that part of the world is familial and customary and most people don’t think too deeply about it. This was true of Muslim as well as non-Muslims in that era. Unfortunately things have probably changed now for the worse because of the infestation of sand-cracker money.

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 12:13 pm
Sand Cracker – it’s good.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 12:23 pm
Copyright Graeme Bird

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 12:24 pm
Pearson states his reasons for opposing Wild Rivers:

Because you won’t be able to get the permits to undertake that kind of horticultural operation within X kilometres of a river – the water source. So we’re going to have this ridiculous situation where wild rivers actually doesn’t stop mining but it will stop small-scale Aboriginal development activities and at making money and at feeding themselves.

Wilderness Society Dude at LP says this means he’s a front for the Mining Companies!

It’s time for Lurch to wear a penguin suit and sing a ‘Blue Sky Mine’/'Beds Are Burning’ medley in a cocktail piano bar where you can buy pies and rotten tomatoes for throwing, $1 each.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 12:29 pm
Paul Norton describes another Aboriginal dissenter as the ‘Mangosutho Buthelezi of Australian politics’

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/rhetoric-shades-tangible-plans/story-e6frg6zo-1225914993390

Dude, Aboriginals and Africans aren’t even the same race. But they’re all dusky skinned so I guess that’s enough

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 12:33 pm
Another Uncle Tom comment. “Pearson is beneath contempt”.

If I knew this is the way lefties really felt about Aboriginies, I would have dropped social democracy a few years before I actually did.

What a disgrace.

.

7 Sep 10 at 12:34 pm
Buried deep in a long list of jingoistic statements is a notion to conduct a study of opportunities for indigenous jobs and businesses.

HAHAHA

Hey don’t just do it, talk about it.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 12:39 pm
Here’s an Aboriginal with a job.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 12:41 pm
Um, aboriginie.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 12:42 pm
“…same old tired things I haven’t actually said.”

Adrien runs to denial. You did defend the Mumbai murderers – whose courage you insisted on – and you did defend child rapist Roman Polanski. With respect to the latter embarrassment, you came in later and announced that you were taking a break – presumably for mental health reasons.

I cite both travesties because they’re the chief explanation for the Birdian vengeance with which you troll any thread I’m on.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 12:50 pm
Lefties hate Aborigines who refuse to behave like National Geographic exhibits.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 12:51 pm
“the people [who supported the intervention to save Aboriginal children]”

I never thought you were gullible, CL. Don’t ruin that now.

Jarrah

7 Sep 10 at 12:58 pm
You were the one that asserted that he was a Muslim as a child.

I have no particular interest in the question but Ev said it was “risible” (laughable and ludicrous) to assert that was once a Muslim.

There is evidence that he was – not that it matters because he is a professed Christian.

The sum total of the evidence that you have linked to is the one form that was unearthed decades later, and not even written by him, when he went to a Roman Catholic school as a child.

Right. A document. Evidence. To which you responded:

“Just an assumption made decades ago by a step-father who really seems not to have cared about religion at all.”

To which, I say again:

Do you have any evidence it was an assumption?

Do you have proof he didn’t care about religion at all?

No. You don’t.

He has been consistent that he was never a Muslim.

He was also “consistent” that he would never abandon the Christianity of Jeremiah Wright.

Since he was himself nominally a Muslim and Obama’s father was nominally a Muslim it would have just made sense to put down “Muslim” in the “Agama” (Religion) field.

You have no evidence the choice (from five options) was made so casually.

Not that it matters but he was almost certainly a Muslim as a child. I don’t really understand why those of a putatively progressivist bent find this so shameful. Interesting.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 12:59 pm
““the people [who supported the intervention to save Aboriginal children]”

I never thought you were gullible, CL. Don’t ruin that now.

So Jarrah, you’re now saying the people who supported the intervention (including Howard, principally) didn’t do so because they wanted to save Aboriginal children.

Is that right?

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 1:02 pm
So the lefty lynching of disobedient Aborigines I predicted is in full swing.

I’m shocked.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 1:03 pm
I don’t really understand why those of a putatively progressivist bent find this so shameful.

yes. It’s really interesting how leftwingers don’t want Hopeychange to have ever been a Muslim.

Speaks buckets.

I hope he comes out each day until the election and denies he is a Muslim.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:06 pm
yes. It’s really interesting how leftwingers don’t want Hopeychange to have ever been a Muslim.

Speaks buckets.

I hope he comes out each day until the election and denies he is a Muslim.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:07 pm
There was a huge swing to the Coalition among Aborigines this election. Except of course among the inner-city 1/8 to 1/16th Aboriginal academics, HREOC, and other Regulatory State KKKomissars, who prefer to be called “Indigenous”.

Peter Patton

7 Sep 10 at 1:08 pm
Dot,
On Java they probably would – on Bali the reverse. It was important, though, not to leave it blank or, worse, put “Atheist” or “Agnostic”. That sort of thing could get you killed in the late 1960s.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 1:12 pm
C.L.,
Perhaps, as evidence, that he married a non-Muslim and did not insist on her converting? I think that is solid evidence that he really did not care.
BTW – who are you accusing of being of a “…progressivist bent”?

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 1:16 pm
Andrew:

But why the big deal that he NOT a Muslim. We’re speculating about shit we just don’t know. Furthermore if you run the probability razor through, it does appear that he was likely a Muslim seeing both the father and the step-father were nominally Muslim.

Why is there this huge need to suggest he wasn’t?

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:16 pm
Furthermore….

He was supposed to be a member of Wrights congregation and that is about as Christian and the local satanic league and really just a cover for a hate whitey group.

He’s not Christian either. He can’t be, hanging around with Wright.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:19 pm
JC,
I did not raise the topic – IIRC C.L. did and THR bit, followed by you.
The topic (and his religious beliefs in particular) seems to fascinate commentators like Beck and Coulter, who seem to want to raise it at every opportunity. This then seems to encourage unambiguous statements like C.L.’s above which is both pointless and wrong.
I don’t even know why C.L. seems fascinated by it – but I’m sure he has a reason.
As I said there is a lot of things that Obama has done wrong. Concentrating on his religion, to me at least, just puts you in a Birdian basket when those that disagree with him could be spending their time a lot better than trying to dig up documents written by third parties over 40 years ago.
Attack him – please – but trying to do so on the basis of his religion (and Coulter and Beck seem to be doing) is (IMHO) just to make yourself look even more like a nutjob.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 1:27 pm
Guess who?

The other point [white middle-class Trotskyist] Graham makes is that there are significant intra-community issues about Pearson’s legitimacy in FNQ as a “leader”. Some of this [according to renowned middle-class white historian, Lefty Kim] goes back to the direct effects of dispossession in some of the notorious mass enforced movements of populations by the Joh government and the churches, the Lutheran church in particular.

[Middle class white Trot] Paul is right, I believe, on the basic argument that white politicians ought not to anoint particular leaders as “legitimate”. [Only middle class white Trots should do this] But it also behooves people to find out something [by reading what white middle class Trots on LP write] of the way power plays out within Indigenous communities themselves.[which of course cannot be ascertained from Aborigines themselves].

What a ….oh god…

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/09/07/noel-pearson-weighs-in/#comment-233236

Peter Patton

7 Sep 10 at 1:29 pm
JC,
To shorten it – it you waste time arguing about his religion – whether Wright or Muhammed – you are making yourself look like a nutjob as it is clearly beside the point as well as possibly incorrect.
He’s a terrible President, whether he believes in Islam, Christ, Jehovah or a little piece of green putty.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 1:30 pm
Peter,
When you get a chance, talk to Ken Wyatt (Liberal MP for Hasluck) about Aboriginal health. He has worked in the area for a very long time.
He knows a lot more than any of us. I just hope he gets the chance to influence policy in this area.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 1:32 pm
Did Coulter raise it, or was she also responding as we are. As I recall she came out and suggested he was atheist?

I don’t see any mainstream right wing publications suggesting he’s Muslim.

There’s certainly is a public perception in America that he indeed is a Muslim. However he’s only got himself to blame for creating that wrong perception such as going to places and always apologizing to Muslim leaders for America like a coardly scmuck.

Fuck him. He’s a douchebag and just as bad as Rudd. If hinterlands Americans want to see deadshit as a Muslim, go on them I says. It’s his problem.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:34 pm
Breaking: Katter backs Coalition

Fleeced

7 Sep 10 at 1:38 pm
To shorten it – it you waste time arguing about his religion – whether Wright or Muhammed – you are making yourself look like a nutjob as it is clearly beside the point as well as possibly incorrect.

You really need to take that back. I mentioned much much earlier that I had read somewhere that mentioned he was a Muslim in his earlier life. That’s it.

The only reason I found this amusing is because it seems to me the fucking idiot has got himself into this soup by his own actions for acting like a cowardly schmuck every time the dickhead goes around the world.

I’m under no illusions that he is a Muslim. In fact if there was a choice it would be better for him in my eyes if he indeed was rather than being a racist prick attending Wright’s bullshit so-called Christian Church.

Point out where I have insisted he was a Muslim in his adult life.

Can you?

In fact I would offer this comment. In fact I find it’s you who seems to be obsessed whereas I just find it amusing how he’s managed to get himself into such a pickle.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:40 pm
Katter says he most likely would have supported Rudd… lol – the guy is crackers

Fleeced

7 Sep 10 at 1:42 pm
Let’s hope Pooshute and Half Windsor go Labor and the rest of us go back to the polls.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 1:42 pm
JC,
The fact that Coulter “came out” and suggested he is an atheist is my point exactly. Why even bother with it?
He probably worse than Rudd economically – but I am not sure if this is only because he inherited a much worse position from his predecessor.
Bush stuffed up and Obama made it worse. Howard and Costello did well (by comparison at least) and Rudd made it worse – but not as bad as Obama. Now that is an interesting topic for debate.
That said – I have to agree with him that the US needs to spend a lot on its infrastructure. I would hope, though, that this was controlled locally to reduce waste. Can’t see it happening – it will be a big Federal project with huge amounts of money spent but precious little achieved.
This reminds me of BER and pink batts.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 1:43 pm
“Katter says he most likely would have supported Rudd… lol – the guy is crackers”

He’s bullshitting. He’s just making an excuse for himself and sticking up to the Liar’s Party.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:43 pm
Big surprise – not – Katter in Coalition camp
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/07/3004931.htm

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 1:46 pm
Crikey we could have a 75 75 split and a new election.

.

7 Sep 10 at 1:47 pm
Katter’s leather document folder is like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. I hope one day we get to find out what’s in it.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 1:47 pm
It’s actually worse than pink Batts and BER, Andrew.

3.3% of the public money went to physical things. The vast bulk that was spent was spent on supporting US liberal states and localities by sending them thereby holding up the wages and salaries of Dem constituencies in the public sector.

This of course retarded the necessary adjustments that have to take place at the local level.

I despise the prick even more than Rudd.

Rudd’s spending was good compared to this prick and Rudd’s was pretty bad. Obama has damaged the US economy to a serious point.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:48 pm
Katter’s leather document folder is like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. I hope one day we get to find out what’s in it.
Australian Vogue?

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 1:49 pm
Dot… can’t see it. I think the other two will also break coalition because a new election will see them out.

My hunch is that they break lib only because their hides depend on it.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:49 pm
PUBLIC NOTICE

JC’s LP crisis center is open for business. There’s going to be some serious tough love for any beta that starts crying though. Take that as a warning.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 1:52 pm
JC – better check on steve

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 1:53 pm
I hope Tony’s agreed to 40% of Bob’s Great Leap Forward For Kennedy. Property rights and a 303 rifle for all!

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 1:57 pm
I hope that idiot Oakshit doesn’t request another delay till next Monday while regaling us with more stories about how Nationals shunned his wife or poisoned his cat

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 1:59 pm
Andrew, I didn’t raise the topic and I’m not “fascinated” by it. I corrected Ev’s baseless assertion that it was laughable and ludicrous to say Obama was once a Muslim.

It isn’t laughable and ludicrous.

I have no particular interest either way. But it is interesting how some people regard the religion of the Obama boy child as shameful. Their nutty militance on the question puzzles me.

The discussion began with my link to an Ann Coulter essay which argues Obama is NOT a Muslim.

It is certainly relevant to assessing his presidency to point out that he worshipped for 20 years with racist conspiracy theorists who loathe America.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:01 pm
Why woulnd’t Katter announce with the other two?

So they’re going Labor?

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:03 pm
No, I still think the others will break Labor, otherwise they would have joined Katter in making a united announcement. But I’ll join JC in manning the LP Beta Crisis Centre just in case.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 2:05 pm
Let’s take a look at the Rudd effect. He campaigns in 7 marginal seats – Labor lose 6. He takes BobKat to dinner twice – BobKat backs Tone.

Kev’s played this beautifully.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 2:05 pm
Yea

Good point CL.. It’s a little more ominous than I thought.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:05 pm
IT, According to Katter, the property rights issue was one of the things Abbott won points for.

Fleeced

7 Sep 10 at 2:05 pm
He says the other two were still talking about it… my guess is that it’s 75-all, and Oakeshott and Windsor are deciding which one flips to avoid election

Fleeced

7 Sep 10 at 2:06 pm
You too fisk.

So it’s now 74 apiece.

If that pansy is trying to make himself speaker I’ll personally go live in that shithole electorate of his and demand a recall election even if it’s unconstitutional.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:09 pm
Katter says he doesn’t know how the other two will vote. So maybe it isn’t about separate/different decisions.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/katter-supports-abbott-20100907-14ywv.html?from=smh_sb

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:09 pm
Fleeced, if it’s like that Windsor could go lab because he looks older enough to retire and may not give much of a shit.

However Miss prissy pants could worry, so he’s the one that decides which way to fall.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:11 pm
I think it boils down to Oakeshott.

.

7 Sep 10 at 2:11 pm
How about this.. Oakfucker goes lab, but windsor goes lib and pansy is speaker.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:13 pm
Katter’s decision may actually make it easier for them to go Labor. They’ll think, ‘yeah, the public can see this is fair – the LNP got Abbott but – in the end – we went for Labor.’ Even Stevens.*

*+1 of course).

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:13 pm
the LNP got KATTER, I mean.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:14 pm
Oakeshott strikes me as the sort of fairy who couldn’t make breakfast without Windsor or Katter holding his hand, so he’ll be trembling like a virgin at a gang bang right now. He’ll ask for another month to decide.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 2:14 pm
This site, thank god, takes a pretty harsh view of people that screw up and such… But I’ve never seen this amount of contempt that oakeshitt accrues here.

Not even Homer at his worst collects this amount of anti-love.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:20 pm
Oakeshott’s a sanctimonious grandstanding pillock.

What pisses me off about him is that I heard him interviewed 2 weeks prior to the election and he was praying for a hung parliamnet so he could do exactly what he’s done. Then to add insult to injury I find him with his t-shirt tucked in. He’s a jerk.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 2:24 pm
Oakeshott reminds me of Steve from Brisbane.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 2:27 pm
I can’t stand his stupid smile and the high pitched voice he has. Put that together with the shit he spouts and he turns out to be a immensely despicable punk.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:27 pm
Good pick, Fisk.

Steve from B brings out the worst in all of us. Even his name plate annoys and irritates me to no end.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:29 pm
I think this might be a stunt.

Katter says he’ll actually support Labor if the other two support Labor – for “stability.”

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:29 pm
Speaking of annoying and irritating people, that reminds me, where’s Homer?

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:30 pm
Oakeshott recently mentioned the racism directed from the Nats to his wife. I, for one, was totally shocked… he has a wife?!

Fleeced

7 Sep 10 at 2:31 pm
Yes, I don’t believe this crap for a minute.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 2:31 pm
I think you’re right, CL. It looks that way snd the LP crisis phones aren’t ringing as I at first expected.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:31 pm
Yes Fleeced – it was so traumatic for him that he became a Nationals MP for six years after the racial comment about his wife. But it’s really hurting him now and might affect his decision!

LOL

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 2:32 pm
What racism to his wife?

I think he’s confusing the contempt people feel for him. And any references to Mrs. Oakeshott would be directed at him rather than his wife who I’m sure goes by her own family name.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:33 pm
Maybe he’s just a little slow… after six years, he suddenly thought, “Oh… *that’s* what he meant. Hmmm… that was pretty rude!”

Fleeced

7 Sep 10 at 2:33 pm
“Oakeshott reminds me of Steve from Brisbane.”

He seems a very reasonable chap, so I take that as the compliment that it was not intended to be.

steve from brisbane

7 Sep 10 at 2:34 pm
In other news, interest rates on hold, as expected.

Fleeced

7 Sep 10 at 2:35 pm
I think we can call this: they’re supporting Labor but Katter has symbolically thrown a bone to the Coalition to sell the process to the public as even-Stevens and to placate his own constituency. Later, he’ll faux-reluctantly join the other two for greater ‘stability’. Katter has been the one repeating time after time that the group will act together and is very close etc. Then he suddenly goes walk-about on his Pat Malone. I don’t buy it.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:37 pm
No, Steve. It means that he is a BS artist who turns on the waterworks when he cops a bit of criticism. It’s pathetic.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 2:37 pm
Steve,

Keep up the delusions.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:37 pm
JC, I know you secretly admire my moderate tone and well argued positions, and want to join CL and I on the tattoo banned beach in Japan. (The tension might be getting to me.)

steve from brisbane

7 Sep 10 at 2:45 pm
That should have been “CL and me”.

steve from brisbane

7 Sep 10 at 2:46 pm
You’re a bit more flamboyant than Oakeshott, steve, but probably not as big a tool.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 2:47 pm
I like ya, Steve, you Laborite loon.

But I like Jap chicks more and wouldn’t want you cramping my style on that beach.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 2:51 pm
Looks like the mining tax is off the table anyway.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 2:52 pm
Andrew, I didn’t raise the topic and I’m not “fascinated” by it. I corrected Ev’s baseless assertion that it was laughable and ludicrous to say Obama was once a Muslim.

What I wrote was:

Obama was a Muslim? Risible.

What I was saying was that a focus on that as an issue is risible.

It is. It’s risible.

Next time I’ll be sure to connect the dots for you. However, I connected the dots on the exegesis of Christian canonical texts and you stubbornly ignored and denied the truth in front of you, CL, so perhaps investing any effort in explaining what is implied is nugatory.

BTW, I’m not a progressive. I just think religion is bunk and focussing on the issue of whether Obama is now or ever was a Muslim is risible. It’s misdirection and another way to dog whistle for the kind of xenophobic sentiment that is generated whenever certain matters are raised. Appeals to racists, even though Islam isn’t a race.

It may surprise you that some of us conservatives don’t tick all the cliched boxes, just as Legal Eagle doesn’t fit the progressive cliche because she is a climate skeptic. Don’t assume that all libertarians agree 100% on all matters, Fail-boy.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 2:55 pm
What I was saying was that a focus on that as an issue is risible.‘

That’s not what you wrote.

That was your face-saving spin.

In any case, I’m not sure who is actually ‘focused’ on Obama’s Muslim childhood – except people who keep raving on about how others are supposedly raving on about it.

It’s a straw dummy – like Hawking’s hilariously bungled argument that Christians believe God created the universe “just to please us.”

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 3:02 pm
Half Windsor’s gone ALP because he likes super fast porn. Berkshire Hunt.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 3:08 pm
Nonsense, Old Yella. You’re barking up the wrong tree.

Republicans talk about me like a dog: Obama.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 3:10 pm
The nation’s fate is in Rob Oakshott’s hands….

Steve Edney

7 Sep 10 at 3:17 pm
Someone kick the milk crate out from underneath this oxygen thief.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 3:18 pm
It’s no wonder you lack any ability to engage in exegesis, CL.

That is what I wrote – but it’s not spin. I think the whole fixation is risible. And I think your support of Karl/Bird/Pseudo-Pedro’s rabid objectives is baffling.

As I wrote earlier, you’re certainly not stupid.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 3:20 pm
An Abbot-Katter government at least holds out the hope of beginning to get a grip on moving towards a more self-sustaining aboriginal community. Oakenshott needs to come over in such a way as to not create the impression that he has been stringing the ALP-Green alliance along just to force Abbot to make promises he really ought not. Which is of course exactly the way a smart independent would behave. Always lean towards the crowd that you don’t want.

So what better way to be persuaded then to bring Noel Pearson into the mix? Is he on a last minute flight to Canberra as we speak? This would be prestigious for Pearson amongst his own community, which is more important than trying to get in good with the current Labour party. The hard-left hate him anyway. Anyone who hates Noel Pearson is evil and not worth placating.

If handled smoothly, Pearson being the final persuader for Oakenshott, could go down well for the Coalition, for Oakenshott, and for reconciliation as well. If Pearson, Katter and Abbot could bring Oakenshott over together, then Windsor would have to come in from the cold. And he would probably be happy to do so.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 3:20 pm
“That’s not indulgence”, says Oakeshott.

Give me a break, you preening pussy.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 3:20 pm
For god sake – get on with it.

Sinclair Davidson

7 Sep 10 at 3:22 pm
Looking after his own job.

Sinclair Davidson

7 Sep 10 at 3:23 pm
What a horrible self-centred man.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 3:24 pm
Is this idiot filibustering?

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 3:25 pm
Maybe he’ll keep talking until the market closes.

Sinclair Davidson

7 Sep 10 at 3:25 pm
Bring on the election so these over-weening intellectual midgets can be cast upon the trash heap of political history.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 3:26 pm
So this is the bloke that has asked for 4 minute answers in Question Time? What a joke of a man.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 3:29 pm
“That is what I wrote – but it’s not spin. I think the whole fixation is risible…”

Fixation with what? Surely we can agree on the following?

1. No-one in this debate knows that Obama is a Muslim.

2. No-one in this debate knows that Obama is not a Muslim.

3. None of us can prove that Obama is a Muslim.

4. The fact that both religions, though chalk and cheese, share much the same cast of characters, makes it hard to know just what being a crypto-Muslim in the USA today would entail.

5. Its not directly important what his religious faith is. What is vitally important is the slightly tangential matter (marginally tangential to his religious faith) of where his loyalties lie.

6. He was definitely a Muslim in earlier years.

Now is there any of the above six points that you are disputing? Because I cannot for the life of me see how you can dispute even one of the above six points? If you agree with these six, then why spend all your time pretending that you disagree with people who you may well agree with?

Supposing you disagree with one or more points? Why is this interesting enough to talk about given that it implies supernatural powers on your part?

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 3:30 pm
Sounds like he’s channelling Fidel Castro.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 3:31 pm
I hope Shitshott never, ever, stops talking.

DavidJ

7 Sep 10 at 3:31 pm
“After extensive masturbation, I have decided to support Gillard”.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 3:31 pm
What a contemptible little toad he is.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 3:32 pm
Gaddafi gave a more coherent speech at the UN.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 3:32 pm
Hmm, ironic that an independent who wanted less bloviating in question time chooses to do this. My twin brother is embarrassing me.

steve from brisbane

7 Sep 10 at 3:32 pm
That man knows how to filibuster.

.

7 Sep 10 at 3:34 pm
Karl, don’t you get it? You’re offensive. Your fixation is pure xenophobia. Go on, fly your racist freak flag high, you creep.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 3:35 pm
You’re risible, Karl. Risible.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 3:36 pm
“Windsor and Oakeshott hand power to Gillard? – 2 minutes ago
Mr Oakeshott, in a lengthy justification for his support, said it was “not a mandate for any one government, nor was it an endorsement”. …”

Right. Well thats it then. What a mess of a governing party Labour will be. Five independents in four different “categories.” This cannot last. Its pretty sad that after all this hard work the independents have shot themselves in the foot.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 3:37 pm
The Senate might euthanise itself to railroad Gillard.

.

7 Sep 10 at 3:40 pm
The only person who is fixated with this question is yourself it seems. Surely this is a technique. You say something that is obviously wrong, then when you are picked up on it you start reading peoples mind and accusing them of a fixation.

Just slow down, be calm, try to overcome your various psychic problems, and tell me which of the six points are you disagreeing with. Since if you don’t disagree with any of them, what has caused this fixation of yours since this morning?

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 3:40 pm
Quiet, you foolish, racist person.

Ev630

7 Sep 10 at 3:44 pm
Hey Bird/Pedro II

how do you feel about sticking up for the Independents now, you buffoon?

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 3:45 pm
Sir. You seem to be engaged in some sort of dog-whistling. As for me it seems that Katter has done the right thing, Windsor has acted kind of strange, and Okeshott may have been bought off. Either they were going to go with Abbot or they were going to go with Gillard. Now a number of them have made a very bad choice and Katter has made a good choice. But the process they went through was the right one. I’ve been wondering what the fuss was about. Kevin Rudd could blow more pork on the Palestinians in a day, then an independent electorate will see in a year.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 3:54 pm
Mr Pedro II

What are you thoughts on the lineage of Obama and how it intersects with that of Malcolm X?

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 4:00 pm
Broken window fallacy anyone?

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 4:06 pm
I think there may be a good case for fractional reserve banking. I hope the Independents have reaffirmed their support for this equitable and just banking system that we have.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 4:06 pm
Jason,
Perhaps we should ask about fractional reserve banking.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 4:07 pm
Michael,
And is not inflationary at all…

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 4:07 pm
Andrew, does the Drum agree that nuking New Zealand would be even better for the economy than an earthquake?

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 4:08 pm
“Pedro 11″:

Is Obama a gay muslim then?

————

Oakeshitt is a pansy little prick. But hey look at the bright side the Gillard government is basically under administration. It’s the equivalent of the liquidators being brought in.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 4:08 pm
Yes Andrew but Janda was using the fallacy to argue that GDP is not a good measure.

Ken Nielsen

7 Sep 10 at 4:09 pm
Michael Janda is the ABC’s online business reporter

God help us. He’s reversed about 200 years of economic thought.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 4:09 pm
Thanks Ken – I missed that.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 4:10 pm
There is good news though. The DLP are back from the dead! They’ll keep a close watch on the Commies in the Senate.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 4:10 pm
Goldman Sachs are a fine organisation which has created wealth for all. Perhaps the best organisation in the world – I am sure you agree Mr Pedro II

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 4:11 pm
The best run investment bank, anyway Jason.

Ken Nielsen

7 Sep 10 at 4:12 pm
It is a justly-run, Christian organisation.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 4:18 pm
Goldman Sachs are a fine organisation which has created wealth for all. Perhaps the best organisation in the world – I am sure you agree Mr Pedro II

Yes Pedro 11. It is without a doubt the finest organization the world has seen. Can you comment on this please?

JC

7 Sep 10 at 4:28 pm
“Is Obama a gay muslim then?”

I doubt that this is the place for a fellow of the alternate calling to be looking for prospects. Obviously I don’t know the answer as you don’t. Since we must all agree on the six points. That you lumped “Gay Muslim” together makes it sound like you imagine that there are no gay Muslims. This may come as a surprise to the Israeli security people who had to listen to tapes of Arafat and his “bodyguards.”

“Jason,
Perhaps we should ask about fractional reserve banking.”

Reading back upon the intense controversy I may have kicked off this morning, I see that you did not know that Obama had been a Muslim in earlier years. The other fellow who has never met me before but contends I am fixated also seems unsure of this fact, or any of the six points I listed, as a way of trying to find common ground.

Now is it the case that one is in a position to know with certainty that a fellow is not a Muslim, if one knew so little about that gentleman, so as to not realise that he had been one? I don’t think so. But it seems others may disagree with me? Its pretty hard to get traction on such truncated analytical skills.

Mr Reynolds. Its pretty clear that you have discredited yourself already. How are you to come to grips with any subject at all, when you have allowed yourself to be lumped together with the other fellow, who appears to have made a fetish of judgement under ignorance?

“Mr Pedro II

What are you thoughts on the lineage of Obama and how it intersects with that of Malcolm X?”

An interesting speculation. Failing genetic testing, only an intense visual study of the two families could give us a clue on this one. Its very hard to imagine his Kenyan father to be a genetic relative, since the Luo have no chin. Whereas Obama has a chin not unlike Dudley Do-Right.

http://blog.timesunion.com/rogergreen/files/2008/03/dudley_do_right.jpg

One cannot deduce anything by the chin and jaw alone of course. A full-blown comparative study would have to be launched. If it were the chin alone we might give Obama senior the nod on the grounds that Obama’s maternal grandfather had an outsized chin. But since it does not come down to any one body part, Obama senior may be left out in the cold.

But its a little bit premature going in for such wild speculations on this forum. Since we don’t seem to be able to agree on the six points I mentioned. If we cannot find what it is we agree on, then any more speculative analysis will be wasted on people who cannot comprehend it.

I seem to have chanced on a denialist site. Is there no-one brave enough to admit that all my six points are correct? Since all my six points are correct what is there to disagree on. Perhaps I can give you something to disagree with since thats what you are after.

Everyone knows that Goldman Sachs are a crime syndicate. Or that they front a crime syndicate in order to deflect liability. It would be pointless to deny this. No one organisation has facilitated that level of bribery and stealing in all of history. Not the Cosa Nostra. Not anyone. This is a fact of recent history.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 4:32 pm
I applied for a job at Goldman Sachs but they said I wasn’t sufficiently christian. They also checked my history and found that I didn’t return a library book. This has been devastating because now no banker in the world will hire me, they keep referring to that bloody library book. I never realised bankers were so ethically scrupulous.

John H.

7 Sep 10 at 4:33 pm
Who left the door open?

ken n

7 Sep 10 at 4:34 pm
Moderator, Birdie is back on pretending he’s Pedro 11.

When you banish him please ensure the other pedros stay on.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 4:36 pm
Nah let me him stay. Now the election is over you lot need another whipping boy.

John H.

7 Sep 10 at 4:39 pm
“I never realised bankers were so ethically scrupulous.”

Weird.

Did you know that these guys facilitated enough stealing to pay off every single mortgage in the US? They weren’t interested in your library book John.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 4:40 pm
I’d like him to stay for as long as he can maintain that polite persona.

I can imagine his blood pressure must be thru the roof and the mouse is being crushed under his grip as he’s controlling his temper while typing.

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 4:41 pm
Mr Pedro

I am afraid that global warming may lead to a substantial reduction in our food supplies due to its deleterious impacts on our ecosystem. What is your counsel?

jtfsoon

7 Sep 10 at 4:42 pm
Only when the Keynsian multiplier kicks in, Jason.

Infidel Tiger

7 Sep 10 at 4:45 pm
Goldman Sachs. Are they a Christian charity? They might as well be. All good people of faith should entrust their life’s savings with these pious gentlemen.

Michael Fisk

7 Sep 10 at 4:46 pm
Bird you contemptible fuckwit.

You have neither the brains nor breeding to argue about monetary economics, to which we’ve resoundedly proven Rothbard was a crank.

Piss off.

.

7 Sep 10 at 4:48 pm
Ev, you wrote that saying Obama was a Muslim was laughable and ludicrous.

It isn’t.

For laughable and ludicrous, see Hawking on what Christians believe.

C.L.

7 Sep 10 at 4:48 pm
“I am afraid that global warming may lead to a substantial reduction in our food supplies due to its deleterious impacts on our ecosystem. What is your counsel?”

Science jtfsoon. My counsel is science.

The fixated fellow makes a good point though. The question of Obama being a Muslim can neither be confirmed or falsified. All that can be said, is that we here in Melbourne, cannot know either way.

But the question of his loyalties are something else again. There we have the opportunity to bring all the circumstantial evidence together to make an informed call on whether he is loyal to global extremist jihad. Whether he is on their side. Whether he has kept faith with them.

Its probably better to focus on those issues that you have some chance of making a reasonable determination on.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 4:49 pm
Did you know that these guys facilitated enough stealing to pay off every single mortgage in the US? They weren’t interested in your library book John.

No nose for sarcasm eh? I just finished reading “The Great Sell Out”, about Wall Street. Those pricks were even trading against their own clients, they knew damn well those mortgages weren’t worth shit, they ware housed their products with a 100% mark(when it should have been at 65% or much less), hence cooked their books, they constantly lied to the public, shareholders, clients, and govt about their financial position, and one mortgage investigator claimed that it is more often the case that when he investigated the mortgages there was fraud, not so much by the client, but by the brokers and their organisation. Fuck ém, hope they burn in hell.

John H.

7 Sep 10 at 4:49 pm
I’d like him to stay for as long as he can maintain that polite persona.

yea right, like for an hour? After which this happens… the claw becomes uncontrollable.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/R-izETB3deI/AAAAAAAAAY0/ZikcklKDcog/s1600-h/Anarchic+Hand+System++Strangelove.jpg

JC

7 Sep 10 at 4:50 pm
Yes birdie, you a crank of the worst order. You have no understanding of economics. NONE!

JC

7 Sep 10 at 4:51 pm
“No nose for sarcasm eh? I just finished reading “The Great Sell Out”, about Wall Street. Those pricks were even trading against their own clients ……… but by the brokers and their organisation. Fuck ém, hope they burn in hell.”

Right. Well thats the fraud side of it. But what about the racketeering? Where are the prosecutions under RICO? We are talking bribes, payoffs, kickbacks and intimidation. Congressman will only speak off the record about Goldman-Sachs, or otherwise when those Congressman are being filmed for multiple websites on the net.

They must be fronting for still larger criminals. They must be flak-catching for bigger fish. Or the dirty work would be spread around much more evenly. The Goldman Sachs flak-catchers carry the flag for the finance industry more generally and for their counter-party risks in the particular.

No-one but the former Soviet Union has ever infiltrated Washington to a greater extent than this one organisation has.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 5:12 pm
Birdie;

You’re not American and no ties to America. You’re not an Australian. You’re a Kiwi lent here on overdraft so stop talking about the US all the time as it doesn’t affect you.
STFU.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 5:15 pm
John. It appears that others have a different assessment of Goldman Sachs and the American finance industry. Let them make their presentations. I will sit back and try and follow the idea that I could be wrong. It pays to have humility in these matters.

Surely the strident JC and some of the others can defend the American banking system in the general and Goldman Sachs in the particular.

Well I for one would like to see that. I’ll keep an open mind, and I think you ought to also.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 5:19 pm
Further, if and only if, I am reading the sarcasm right, it seems to me that many people here appear to find that Obama senior and Obama junior are basically two peas in a pod.

In their eyes, Obama is evidence that the fruit falls close to the tree. It seems that their subjective view of matters is that Obama-the-younger is a dead ringer for his father. A real chip off the old Luo block.

And of course its just uncanny Obama’s daughters! In the view of other posters there the visual spectacle of Obama’s daughters brings the veracity of the theory of evolution into doubt. Where is the change at all, when one finds that the daughters look more Luo then the Luo people themselves.

Or at least this may be the view of some of the people here who never thought he looked any different then his Dads little boy. His Dads little boy. That father-son thing so lovingly captured in their only known joint photograph, taken at an airport.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 5:26 pm
Who the fuck are you? Get you own name! Oh fuck, it’s fill.

pedro

7 Sep 10 at 5:41 pm
http://johndenugent.com/jdn/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Barack-Obama-senior.jpg

Here is Obama-Senior. I’m sure you had the same experience as I had. The literal “double-take.” How could two men look so similar and not be twins, clones, or the self-same fellow? We must put it down to the gift and the miracle of miscegenation. It is reminiscent of the superman comic character. Surely if we saw Obama senior today we would say “When did Obama junior take up the reading glasses? Verily it be news to me that he had taken up the reading of books?”

So clear is it that the one has sprung from the loins of the other that enquiries as to the paternity of the younger(?) man (who could ever tell) are put to an end right away. Never has a father resembled so much his son. Or should I say; never has a son deviated from the visage of his father, to such a small, imperceptible, and inconsequential degree.

These tea-party types. If it is not one thing its another. But here they lack plausibility. How can they question Obama juniors clear lineage when he looks so much like his father?

If Obama junior, were standing amongst his cousins in a Luo village, there would be no way to tell which one once went under the name of “Soetoro” -Who be Prince and who be pauper? There would be no means of knowing.

The rumours to do with Obama’s potential alternative lineage are going nowhere. The truth is so clear from the above photo: “All history present in that visage, the child the father of the man.”

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 5:44 pm
Here is one of Obama’s half-brothers. Just astonishing. you would swear they were twins. The same in every respect. Except one hopes brainpower. Since one wouldn’t wish Obama’s dimness on anyone.

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/obamamalikholdaphotoofhisbro424_0.jpg

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 6:04 pm
Mr. Pedro II,
At a bare minimum your point six is highly contestable, as discussed above. As for the rest, the Koran is clear that a Muslim must perform certain acts on a regular basis. There is no record of any of these things happening – quite the contrary, there is strong evidence that he does not perform them. Ergo, it is extremely unlikely he is a secret Muslim.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 6:29 pm
Looks like we are going to have to fixate on point 6 until you admit that you are wrong.

Here is point six:

“6. He was definitely a Muslim in earlier years.”

You could get this over with and admit you are wrong now. We both know that you don’t know anything about this fellow.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 6:49 pm
Tick tick tick tick tick.

Well Mr Reynolds. Are you willing to admit you are wrong on point 6 yet? If not might you explain what it is you are relying on other than your pure imagination and bloody-mindedness?

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 6:51 pm
Dear Mr. Pedro II,
The only evidence I have seen that he was a Muslim at any stage is the one document, written by a third person, to another third person, when he was a child. There was strong self-interest that what was his probable religion at that stage (agnostic, at best) was not disclosed.
Do you have further evidence, from Obama himself or a reputable witness, of anything else?

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 7:20 pm
Pedro II,

You have obviously thought about these issues a lot. It’s nice to see someone here who has a deep commitment to the scientific method.

Let me ask, do you happen to be familiar with the theory of panspermia? If you were perchance to rank various paradigms regarding the origins of human life, would there be a slot for panspermia?

Also, as regards the Jews – they are chiefly to blame for fractional reserve and bank-cash pyramiding, don’t you reckon?

I only ask because you seem like a very thoughtful person.

Even if you are from Melbourne.

Tillman

7 Sep 10 at 7:33 pm
Its not got anything to do with evidence you see or don’t see. You are not competent to judge.

We cannot go onto anything more complicated then point 6. because it doesn’t get any more basic then this. Its not about what you see or what you don’t see. Its only about you facing reality and admitting when you are wrong.

“6. He was definitely a Muslim in earlier years.”

This has to be a sticking point until such time as you admit point six is totally right and you are entirely wrong.

But then you might explain how it is you know so much more than the biographers. And the AUTO-biographer.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 7:34 pm
“Let me ask, do you happen to be familiar with the theory of panspermia? If you were perchance to rank various paradigms regarding the origins of human life, would there be a slot for panspermia?”

There are two types of panspermia. One at the cellular level. One at the level of intelligent life. Both ought to be considered part of the story of evolution, putting aside human evolution for the time being.

The first type of panspermia is pretty much proven. But the latter is highly controversial. Even though it almost has to be true. The real debate ought to be to do with the frequency of the latter version of panspermia. Given the distances between stars, apriori this ought to be an highly infrequent occurrence.

If evidence emerges that the second form of panspermia isn’t highly infrequent, then this would be terribly surprising on all levels and one really would not know what to make of it.

Mr Tillman I’m afraid that I cannot speculate further. You see the thread has ground down with the obstinence of Mr Reynolds. You see we are waiting for Mr Reynolds to admit he is wrong. There is really nothing to talk about until he does so in such a way as to rule out back-sliding.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 7:41 pm
I’m not sure what it means for a child of six to be a Muslim or a Christian or any other religion. In Indonesia to access all government services it was necessary to nominate a religion (the five permitted religious affiliations were Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism), and generally disadvantageous not to pick Islam. Criticism of any of the five official faiths is punishable, though in practice only Islam is protected.

Timothy Can

7 Sep 10 at 7:44 pm
Right.

What about pyramids? Don’t you think they are pretty much conclusive evidence of Panspermia?

Tillman

7 Sep 10 at 7:46 pm
This forum seems to be degenerating. Panspermia is a speculative hypothesis not generally accepted by scientists, the general consensus being that bacteria would be degraded beyond survival by interstellar transport.

Timothy Can

7 Sep 10 at 8:00 pm
I’m not sure what it means for a child of six to be a Muslim or a Christian or any other religion.

I do. Uncomfortable clothing and weekly boredom.

Adrien

7 Sep 10 at 8:00 pm
Well one supposes that bacteria would be degraded. But then bacteria is a multi-celled, large and sophisticated beast, compared to what one normally thinks of when one thinks of type 1 Panspermia.

“I’m not sure what it means for a child of six to be a Muslim or a Christian or any other religion.”

Relentless calls to prayer probably Mr Can. But if you are talking about some six year old Muslim who left and completed the experience at six, and never came back to it, and just left it at that, then you are not talking about young Barry Soetoro.

We want to concentrate on the subject at hand.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 8:08 pm
Here is a picture of the youthful Barry. As young as he looks, one would at a guess, place him as somewhat older than six years old.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/archives/images/Obama-muslim.jpg

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 8:11 pm
Birdie:

No one is interesting in this babbling swill you’re going on about. No more pics please, as it getting awfully boring.

You realize that the time you were banned from here one of the reasons was the incessant babbling you’re go on with.
Knock it off.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 8:17 pm
Hmmm that website also claims that the Earth is only six thousand years old. P2 you seem to be a crank so I shall draw our conversation to a close.

Timothy Can

7 Sep 10 at 8:18 pm
This forum seems to be degenerating.

No you’re lying. Where’s the evidence.

Tillman

7 Sep 10 at 8:22 pm
Very strange. A person who sometimes describes himself as a Christian was planning a non-religious Christmas.

“But Washington is a city that likes its traditions, and Ms. Rogers has raised a few eyebrows by trying to bend them. When former social secretaries gave a luncheon to welcome Ms. Rogers earlier this year, one participant said, she surprised them by suggesting the Obamas were planning a “non-religious Christmas”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeDz28VQu2k&feature=related

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 8:30 pm
Panspermia is a speculative hypothesis not generally accepted by scientists

Really? Francis Crick was a proponent of the theory. It’s hard to get more mainstream than that.
So please clarify. Are you saying that it’s speculative or that it’s wrong?

daddy dave

7 Sep 10 at 8:35 pm
“Hmmm that website also claims that the Earth is only six thousand years old. P2 you seem to be a crank so I shall draw our conversation to a close.”

Mr Can. I linked a photograph. I could have linked the same photograph from any one of a 100 different websites. Clearly you aren’t interested in the biography of Barry Soetoro. That he was a Muslim is beyond dispute.

Its a fact Mr Can. A fact. Before the modern era we had these things called “facts.” Facts that cannot be changed on the basis of the nature of a website, that one found by accident searching google for a well-known photograph. My goodness Mr Can. Pull yourself together.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 8:35 pm
Bird:

What is your point?

JC

7 Sep 10 at 8:37 pm
Re Obama and Christianity.
If nobody’s linked to this before, here’s a recent article on the topic: Is Obama a Christian?

In some ways, Obama exhibits a worldview that more closely resembles a secularist than it does either a Muslim or a Christian, especially in his views on social issues. Also, he seems to place a great deal of confidence in himself and in government to bring about transformational change.

How many God-fearing people have you known who would say “we (meaning I) are the ones we’ve been waiting for” or “generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal”? The staggering conceit of these statements cannot be overstated.

daddy dave

7 Sep 10 at 8:40 pm
“…..No more pics please, as it getting awfully boring.”

Well of course its boring. Its must mundane reality. Of course they are not interested in the actual authentic biography of Barrack Obama. I knew that. They don’t know anything about him and they are not the least bit interested in finding out. Not one person has endorsed my unassailable six points.

I don’t think reality is boring. But a lot of people do. They find it far more exciting digging things out of their own minds.

Individuals can never be in a position to figure out the extent to which they have been duped, if they cannot get simple matters of the fellows biography under their belt. How can it be established that he is faithful and beholden to extremist Wahhabi Islam (if he was) if it can never be established that he was at one time a Muslim? When he himself says so? He has never claimed he was anything else prior to moving to Chicago.

Pedro II

7 Sep 10 at 8:43 pm
Bird,
You claim, by saying “AUTO-biographer” that Obama has said he was a Muslim. Please justify this or concede error.
To justify this it has to be a direct claim that he was, at one stage, a Muslim.

Andrew Reynolds

7 Sep 10 at 10:11 pm
Andrew, for someone complaining to me (incorrectly) about “Obama is a Muslim”, that’s all you’ve obsessed about all day.

So what if Bird thinks he’s a Muslim. Why would you expect anything else from him? And you still keep talking about it.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 10:21 pm
Marieke Hardy is on ABC Booknotes. She’s wearing a huge flower on top of her head and fishnet stockings with hole and the garter visibly showing.

This woman’s an idiot.

She’s also Frank Hardy’s granddaughter.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 10:37 pm
There’s a really cute gal interviewing on lateline. Lovely smile. Doesn’t seem bright though because her first question was about climate change. But if she’s cute who cares.

JC

7 Sep 10 at 11:21 pm
Here’s another way to skin a cat.

http://www.businessinsider.com/can-the-economy-even-recover-when-92-of-the-population-things-things-are-horrible-2010-9?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+clusterstock+%28ClusterStock%29

We can’t these deplorable fuckers out but there’s hope across the other side

JC

8 Sep 10 at 12:31 am
JC,
You know I enjoy a good argument with the Bird. Having shown C.L. had no basis for his little comment, and was therefore incorrect, I am enjoying a little discussion with Graham. No obsession, just an argument.
If I were obsessed with something I would be making as many comments here as C.L. is.
.
BTW, C.L. – that form is wrong on at least one other count. I suspect it was so that he got free schooling that he was listed as an Indonesian citizen on the form – the “Islam” on it was probably for the same reason.

Andrew Reynolds

8 Sep 10 at 2:54 am
On your last comment, JC, I am not confident that the Republicans would do any better. The ones in Washington seem to be wedded to tax and spend and the Tea Party mob seem to be just an expression of rage rather than a group likely to carry the polls.

Andrew Reynolds

8 Sep 10 at 2:56 am
Then you’re basically saying the place is fucked, Andrew. If the GOP can’t do any better than this mob of loons there’s no hope for America.

I’m slightly more optimistic than you. I think they’ll do great, or as best as can be expected when there is a fucking dickhead in the White House.

JC

8 Sep 10 at 3:09 am
Here’s something to look forward to: some yahoo pastor in Florida is planning to burn the Koran in public on September 11. It is an excellent gesture that will certainly advance inter-faith understanding (in the true sense of the word “understanding”).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704282504575471870674163414.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird

Michael Fisk

8 Sep 10 at 3:22 am
I would wipe my arse with a Koran and post it on Youtube if I wasn’t 100% sure that it would result in my murder.

Yobbo

8 Sep 10 at 3:31 am
That could be a parliamentary reform – replacing the sectarian “lord’s prayer” with a more ecumenical Koran-burning ceremony. I don’t see how any reasonable person could object to it.

Michael Fisk

8 Sep 10 at 3:44 am
Fractional reserve banking, always a source of strife and passion. From William Allen’s (the collaborator to Alchian) memoirs

http://econjwatch.org/articles/a-life-among-the-econ-particularly-at-ucla
In the early 1950s, the UCLA department included relatively senior scholars
George Hildebrand and Warren Scoville; several old-timers, including Dudley
Pegrum; Alchian contemporaries Karl Brunner and Wytze Gorter; and several
innocent youths, including John McGee and me. Paul Homan, widely known as
the long-time editor of the American Economic Review, was chairman. (Homan and I
had rather different degrees of enthusiasm for the work of J. K. Galbraith, but in
my first semester, fall 1952, he steadfastly supported me in an investigation by a
regent. A student—a former Marine—in my money-and-banking class had
protested my favorable assessment of the 100 percent reserve proposal, and Paul
vigorously defended me, contending that the proposal was a conservative, not
radical, suggestion and a reputable idea.

jtfsoon

8 Sep 10 at 7:02 am
100% backing basically shuts down banking.

Katter wants a devaluation and a ethnaol scam to put his whole electorate on welfare.

Kennet wants national service. He didn’t have an image problem already as “jackboot Jeff”.

The Greens are selling red shirts now with “stop greed” on them. (Are they opposed to unethical behaviour or profit taking? Do they beleive there is a difference?)

Why have my fellow Australians gone native when there is a possibility the next Parliament could pass very little hare brained legislation?

.

8 Sep 10 at 7:24 am
Why has Jeff turned into a raging communist? His rationale for national service smacks of more upper class white trotskyism.

Abbot didn’t deserve form Government because his conegers slowly degenerate into raging communists. I believe he is already melting like a hydrophobic wicked warlock of forestville.

.

8 Sep 10 at 8:03 am
Andrew, you didn’t show I had no basis for my comment. I have a document. A source. Evidence. You have:

“Just an assumption made decades ago by a step-father who really seems not to have cared about religion at all.”

To which, I say again:

Do you have any evidence it was an assumption?

Do you have proof he didn’t care about religion at all?

No. You don’t.

You now add:

“I suspect it was so that he got free schooling that he was listed as an Indonesian citizen on the form – the “Islam” on it was probably for the same reason.”

So you’ve now changed your theory. It wasn’t an indifferent stepfather (for which you have no evidence); it was a presumptuous official.

For which, of course, you have no evidence.

Not that it matters but Barry was almost certainly a Muslim as a child. I don’t really understand why those of a putatively sophisticated bent find this so shameful. Interesting. You appear to be Islamophobic.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 8:51 am
“…the Tea Party mob seem to be just an expression of rage…”

That’s what they said about the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s.

And that didn’t affect American politics for the better at all, did it Andrew?

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 8:54 am
Is Jeff Kennett calling for national service?

I suspect it’s because he’s served in the army himself and enjoyed his experiences.

jtfsoon

8 Sep 10 at 8:59 am
does anyone know if the betting markets ultimately got it right on yesterday’s events?

I really want to cure my futarchist friends of their insane delusions.

jtfsoon

8 Sep 10 at 9:05 am
Serving in Malaysia and Singapore during the Vietnam War, I’m not surprised he enjoyed it.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 9:08 am
Yobbo – not only might it result in your murder but it would unnecessarily offend many law-abiding, god-fearing Moslems who just want to live their lives in peace and quiet like everyone else.

Sinclair Davidson

8 Sep 10 at 9:15 am
Sinc, I think there’s a reason he calls himself “Yobbo”.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 9:25 am
“…the Tea Party mob seem to be just an expression of rage…”

That’s what they said about the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s.

And that didn’t affect American politics for the better at all, did it Andrew?

Bullshit.

What serious commentator ever said Martin Luther King was just expressing rage?

He said “I have a dream”, not “I have an overwhelming urge to punch whitey in the face”, you silly dissembling twit.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 9:55 am
And the civil rights movement pressed – and caused the enactment of – very specific legislation.

It was a political movement, with crystal clear political goals. And it got a bunch of laws passed.

What are the political goals of the Tea Party movement?

There are none.

It’s just an inchoate expression of frustration.

Not to say that there aren’t grounds for sympathy with many of the tea partiers who have played by the rules their entire lives and now see themselves screwed over by forces they don’t understand, but you can’t compare it to the civil rights movement in terms of political focus and direction.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 9:59 am
They’re not a homogenous group.

.

8 Sep 10 at 10:15 am
That new movie Tomorrow when the war began?

We may be closer to it than we think – Gillard looking to fulfill her promise to Rudd

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/rudd-a-risky-choice-for-foreign-minister-says-white-20100908-15014.html

jtfsoon

8 Sep 10 at 10:28 am
What serious commentator ever said Martin Luther King was just expressing rage?

Dunno but Martin Luther King was not the “civil rights movement.” John F. Kennedy tried to stop the March on Washington in 1963, fearing violence, rage and riots. Is he a serious enough commentator for you, dumbo?

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 10:50 am
I think you’re going a touch CL on us in the rhetoric, Jason, even though I have also been saying that I don’t think he should be foreign minister either.

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 10:52 am
Steve was waving the pop-poms for foreign affairs expert Rudd like a cheerleader when he was in office – especially in relation to Copenhagen.

Now he’s changed his mind.

“Doesn’t matter.”

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 10:59 am
No, CL.

You expressly said that “they” said the civil rights movement “seem[ed] to be just an expression of rage”.

Show me the quote from JFK where he says that.

Then again, you also think US federal judges run show trials and Gen. Mattis conspired with Cindy Sheehan in a Code Pink style lynching of exactly one US Marine for war crimes he didn’t commit in Haditha.

SO you’re not exactly a reliable authority, are you, dillweed?

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 11:05 am
The thought of Steve waving poms poms dressed in a pink miniskirt and sleevless shirt is quite funny.

jtfsoon

8 Sep 10 at 11:15 am
Can’t wait for Gillard to announce her Ministers. If Rudd doesn’t get Foreign Affairs, she’ll be bleeding like a stuck pig by the end of September.

Infidel Tiger

8 Sep 10 at 11:33 am
C.L.,
I have not changed what I have said one whit – except to add further clarification. Perhaps you should read it again, and this time actually think about it. There’s a good chap.
You have also cherry picked what I said on the Tea Party – I added the bit on “…carry the polls”. Kennedy (however slightly) did “carry the polls”, so even if his mob was an expression of rage (not conceded) then they do not fall into that category.
Again – think about it, please.

Andrew Reynolds

8 Sep 10 at 11:34 am
I vote KRudd for Defence Minister.

One – because I am pretty sure the payroll office at Russell Hill won’t stiff the families of the SAS troopers fighting in Afganistan for combat pay again AND ignore the pleas of the minister, like they did with the lamanted Joel Fitzgibbon.

Ruddie apparently has a winning way with words in dealing with his staff;

and

Two – with real tanks, ships and planes to play with – he can probably have a lot more fun in international relations than he ever did in foreign affairs !

Can’t wait until he starts giving orders to the commander of the US Pacific Fleet as to where to deploy Generlissimo Rudd’s expeditionary forces

Myrddin Seren

8 Sep 10 at 11:40 am
It’s the stuff of JC’s nightmares, I’m sure.

I’m just relieved the sublimated Catallaxian homoeroticism over Abbott’s “iron man” prowess is going to be given a rest for a while. Cos he’s turned out a loser.

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 11:41 am
Abbott’s s a loser in the same way Rocuy Balboa was you flamboyant fool. Stand by for the sequels.

Infidel Tiger

8 Sep 10 at 11:46 am
Rocky.

Infidel Tiger

8 Sep 10 at 11:47 am
The Bible, modernized

NOAH TODAY

In the year 2010, the Lord came unto Noah, who was now living in Bega (Gods country ?) and said:

“Once again, the earth has become wicked and over
-populated, and I see the end of all flesh before me.

Build another Ark and save 2 of every living thing along with a few good humans.”

He gave Noah the blueprints, saying:

“You have 6 months to build the Ark before I will start the unending rain for 40 days and 40 nights.”

Six months later, the Lord looked down and saw Noah weeping in his yard – but no Ark.

“Noah!,” He roared,

“I’m about to start the rain! Where is the Ark?”

“Forgive me, Lord,” begged Noah,

“but things have changed since you asked me to build your 1st Ark.”

“I needed a Building Permit.”

“I’ve been arguing with the Building Inspector
about the need for a sprinkler system.”

“My neighbours claim that I’ve violated the Bega Valley LEP and DCP, numerous SEPs and many other Regulations by building the Ark in my back garden and exceeding the height limitations.

We had to go to the Bega Valley Council and now we have to go to the Regional Planning Committee for a decision and then to the NSW Land & Environment Court.”

“The RTA; Council and the Electricity Company have demanded a shirt load of money for the future costs of moving power lines and other overhead obstructions to clear the passage for the Ark’s move to the sea.

I told them that the sea would be coming to us and it would float itself, but they would hear nothing of it…”

“Getting the wood was another problem. There’s a ban
on cutting local trees in order to save the Barking Owl habitat.”

“I tried to convince the Council, The Green’s and local environmentalists that I needed the wood to save these same owls – but NO – GO!”

“When I started gathering the animals the RSPCA took me to court. They insisted that I was confining wild animals against their will.

They argued the accommodations were too restrictive, and
it was cruel and inhumane to put so many animals in
a confined space.”

“Then the Green’s put pressure on the NSW Environmental Protection Agency ruled that I couldn’t build the Ark until they’d conducted an environmental impact study on YOUR proposed flood.”

“I’m still trying to resolve a complaint with the Equal Opportunity Commission & Labour Council on how many minorities and women I’m
supposed to hire for my building gang.”

“Immigration are checking the
Visa status of most of the people who do want to work.”

“The Building trade unions say I can’t use my sons.

They insist I have to hire only Union workers with
Ark-building experience.”

“To make matters worse, the ATO and Customs seized all my assets, claiming I’m trying to leave the country illegally with endangered species.”

“So, forgive me, Lord, but it will take at least 20
years for me to finish this Ark.”

“Suddenly the skies cleared, the sun began to shine,
and a rainbow stretched across the sky.”

Noah looked up in wonder and asked,

“You mean you’re not going to destroy the world?”

“No,” said the Lord.

“The AUSTRALIAN GREENS and LABOR PARTY have beaten me to it.”

JC

8 Sep 10 at 12:01 pm
It ain’t over till it’s over
(quote from the last Rocky movie)

jtfsoon

8 Sep 10 at 12:02 pm
There are rumours that Oakeshott is going to be sectioned under the Mental Health Act and won’t be able to take up his seat.*

*I started this rumour.

Infidel Tiger

8 Sep 10 at 12:04 pm
Oh FFS

I’m sure Steve in pom-poms will be happy with this

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/catch-of-the-day-circus-told-to-stop-fish-swallowing-act-20100908-150b3.html

Sydney authorities have banned a circus from performing an act involving live fish after an animal rights group complained it was cruel.

The Great Moscow Circus, touring in Miranda in Sydney’s south, includes a performance which sees a woman pick a live fish from a bowl, swallow it, then regurgitate the fish while it is still alive.

A NSW Department of Industry spokeswoman confirmed this morning they had banned the circus from performing the act.

jtfsoon

8 Sep 10 at 12:09 pm
See Jason, the Greens are flexing their muscles already.

Ken Nielsen

8 Sep 10 at 12:11 pm
No, CL. You expressly said that “they” said the civil rights movement “seem[ed] to be just an expression of rage”.

If you insist on the plural over the singular, why did you respiond with: “What serious commentator ever said Martin Luther King was just expressing rage?”

Lame casuistry.

Consider yourself beclowned.

Another William F. Buckley moment.

Then again, you also think US federal judges run show trials and Gen. Mattis conspired with Cindy Sheehan in a Code Pink style lynching of exactly one US Marine for war crimes he didn’t commit in Haditha.

No. What I said (correctly) is that far-left nutball Eric Holder was intending to run a show trial when he decided to try Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in New York while also saying he would never be released anyway. But Holder’s Justice Department has surrendered that stupid idea. The Obama ‘administration’ has admitted that Bush was right about military tribunals.

Of the eight Marines charged over Haditha, six defendants have had their cases dropped absolutely (they weren’t “prosecuted” at all, as Tillman lied), one has been found not guilty and the trial date of the other (Frank D. Wuterich) has been postponed (although the unpremeditated murder charges have now been dropped).

Trying to accuse other people of being allied to Code Pink when you’re the anti-Bushitler Cindy Sheehan loony doesn’t work, except in your imagination. Your imagination being the stench-pit that gave us anti-semite sockpuppets, “illegal statutes” and “prosecuted” Haditha Marines.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 12:20 pm
Me on election night, when I couldn’t find the pink outfit:

http://www.tinyurl.com.au/qmw

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 12:21 pm
Andrew, you didn’t show I had no basis for my comment. I have a document. A source. Evidence. You have:

“Just an assumption made decades ago by a step-father who really seems not to have cared about religion at all.”

To which, I say again:

Do you have any evidence it was an assumption?

Do you have proof he didn’t care about religion at all?

I’m still waiting.

You now add:

“I suspect it was so that he got free schooling that he was listed as an Indonesian citizen on the form – the “Islam” on it was probably for the same reason.”

This isn’t a “further clarification.” You’ve now changed your theory. So it wasn’t an indifferent stepfather (for which you have no evidence); it’s now a presumptuous official.

For which, of course, you have no evidence.

Once again: not that it matters but Barry was almost certainly a Muslim as a child. I don’t really understand why those of a putatively sophisticated bent find this so shameful. Cut out the Islamophobia, Andrew.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 12:24 pm
Tony Abbott: “loser.”

Election summmary (origins of a junta):

- Big swing to the Coalition.
- The first time a first-term government majority has been destroyed in 80 years.
- Coalition won popular vote (most common choice was an Abbott government).
- Coalition won 2PP (biggest preference was an Abbott government)
- Coalition won most seats.
- Coalition won overwhelming majorities in key three.
- Oakeshott and Windsor (Labor vote in his electorate: 8 percent) declare they supported Labor because Australians would back the Coalition in a new poll.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 12:28 pm
I see AEC has 2PP vote at 50% each again: there’s just over a thousand votes in it (in Libs favour.)

I still wouldn’t be putting bets on which side will eventually win on 2PP.

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 12:39 pm
LOL. Tim Blair reports:

The Los Angeles-area Carson-Gore Academy of Environmental Sciences, named after Gore and pioneering environmentalist Rachel Carson, was built atop an environmentally contaminated piece of real estate, the Los Angeles Times reports. Some are now raising concerns that the $75.5 million school – which sits across the street from an oil well – may pose long-term health risks to its students, faculty and staff, as the groundwater beneath it is contaminated by chemicals.

As if that’s not funny enough, there’s an organisation dedicated to science called the Carson-Gore Academy!

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 12:44 pm
So if the 2PP goes libs way you essentially agree with all of CL’s bullet points Stevie?

JC

8 Sep 10 at 12:50 pm
Of course not, JC. You lot just think getting close to the finishing line is good enough – “here Tony, don’t feel bad, have the winner’s ribbon, ‘cos everyone says you did so much better than they expected.”

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 12:54 pm
He didn’t get “close to” the finishing line, Steve.

He crossed it first:

- Big swing to the Coalition.
- The first time a first-term government majority has been destroyed in 80 years.
- Coalition won popular vote (most common choice was an Abbott government).
- Coalition won 2PP (biggest preference was an Abbott government)
- Coalition won most seats.
- Coalition won overwhelming majorities in key three.
- Oakeshott and Windsor (Labor vote in his electorate: 8 percent) declare they supported Labor because Australians would back the Coalition in a new poll.

Labor lost.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 1:12 pm
You lot just think getting close to the finishing line is good enough

Good point steve. How piss poor of me to think that if you scrape over the line you don’t win the ribbon.

Public announcement/

Steve From Nowhere proposes that from now on all individuals and teams that come in second in a sporting event will be deemed as winning.

JC

8 Sep 10 at 1:17 pm
oh and………Minister for sport and sheltered work shops, Kate Ellis will be looking into “independent steve from nowhere’s proposal for implementation.

JC

8 Sep 10 at 1:19 pm
Gonna keep this list in your cut and paste memory for the next 3 years, hey, CL?

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 1:19 pm
Going to keep “Abbott Speedos” in your google alerts, Steve?

Infidel Tiger

8 Sep 10 at 1:22 pm
“Gonna keep this list in your cut and paste memory for the next 3 years, hey, CL?”

I will.

Steve From Nowhere proposes that from now on all individuals and teams that come in second in a sporting event will be deemed as winning.

JC

8 Sep 10 at 1:22 pm
Any independent or minor party candidate from now on will now hopefully be aaked who they would support in a hung parliament, prior to the election.

Fleeced

8 Sep 10 at 1:28 pm
Fleeced: and of course, for independents at least, they would never answer, as to do otherwise would end the bargaining advantage for their electorate.

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 1:39 pm
Hurts, doesn’t it, Steve?

Gillard was humiliated on polling day and now suffers the ignominy of being the only twice unelected prime minister in Australian history.

She said she wouldn’t move into The Lodge until she was elected prime minister.

So I ask again: where will she and Stedman be living?

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 2:22 pm
What hurts, CL? You’re projecting. You can keep your illegitimate government line up if you like, but it’s as wrong as the complaints in the States about the Gore/Bush election.

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 2:30 pm
Gonna keep this list in your cut and paste memory for the next 3 years, hey, CL?

Makes for uncomfortable reading if you’re a Liar’s Party grub with a rare sense of fair play, doesn’t it Steve?

Suck it up, princess.

Ev630

8 Sep 10 at 2:45 pm
Illegal Statute FTW!!

Where’s Pedro II?

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 2:47 pm
Ace of Spades with the headline of the day:

Butts Arrested In Boob Murder Case.

Police have arrested a third person in connection with the murder of Samuel Boob.
…

Kermit Butts, 26, of Madisonburg, is accused of driving the suspected killer to and from the crime scene on the morning of the killing.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 2:48 pm
Hahaha. That’s really funny, CL. Dummy got his ass murdered. Hilarious.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 3:17 pm
Got any other funny stories about people dying to share with us, CL?

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 3:18 pm
Yarp, yarp, Tillman. Off you trot.

Ev630

8 Sep 10 at 3:25 pm
“Suck it up, princess.”

You’re in the running for the “sorest loser at Catallaxy” award, Ev, but you’ll have to put in a lot more effort to get past CL. (I was going to run a separate card on “sorest loser who

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 3:41 pm
manages to get gay jibe into an insult” but the field is too full.

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 3:45 pm
Ev630, I’m not trotting off anywhere until CL tells us one of his hilarious fart jokes.

He’s quite the humorist, our Comedy Lad is.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 4:10 pm
Tell you what, Tillman.
Do you have an iPhone?
I’ll give you iFart Mobile you can use as a ringtone if that will make you happy and stop you complaining.

ken n

8 Sep 10 at 4:18 pm
Sinclair, Ken N just offered to give me pirated software.

That’s ILLEGAL.

Can you ban him please? thanks.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 5:57 pm
Graeme takes the high road:

So anyhow now I’ve been proven correct, after having suffered this near constant defamation, insofar as being accused of going into a meltdown. Whereas it was just them being mindless cunts all the time.

Time for Sinclair and the others to apologize. Do the right thing. Choose reason. Put their hatred for evidence behind them. Admit there is no Keynesian multiplier. The whole damn thing. Let me back onto Catallaxy with all due deference. And so forth. Because they have been claiming to all and sundry that I was deranged. When it turned out to be them.

I hope you all feel a bit sheepish after you read that. You’ve clearly done him a great disservice.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 6:13 pm
Birdie wants an apology and allowed back here all caezar like riding on his chariot (reinforced) while we fill the road with flowers?

Is he even more insane than what i thought?

Birdie, face facts. The only way you would ever get back here is if you swan the heads in the nud and back… and we all know that is physically impossible for you as you’re too fat and out of condition.

And the apology is the other way around you clown.

JC

8 Sep 10 at 6:19 pm
You misunderstand Tillman.
You can “gift” stuff on iTunes.
But if you are not interested…

ken n

8 Sep 10 at 6:20 pm
C.L.,
You are claiming that “Obama was a Muslim. That’s a fact.” Forgive me if I do not take a document written by a third party over the clear statements of the person concerned himself.
It is not a fact – it is simply a supposition on your part that a document written by a third party with a clear incentive to give a particular answer, whether correct or not, should be taken over the clear denials of the person themselves.
As with many of the other supposed “facts” you come up with it is simply a supposition.

Andrew Reynolds

8 Sep 10 at 6:21 pm
there’s more

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/09/08/catallaxian-gift-of-second-sight-fails-again-obama-not-born-in-hawaii/#comment-32547

Its pretty clear that Obama is a Saudi agent-of-influence in the White House. But that doesn’t mean he is EXCLUSIVELY a Saudi asset. After all 9/11 was undoubtedly an Arab plot with an American overlay. It was both an Arab plot AND an American plot. One doesn’t preclude the other. So that we could imagine the Saudi Asset Obama, being sheparded along and assisted by American shadow government.

jtfsoon

8 Sep 10 at 6:22 pm
I also see from Bird:

“Cambria still supports the carbon tax.”

Are you hiding something from us, JC?

steve from brisbane

8 Sep 10 at 6:31 pm
Fascist police state brutality:

“black-clad riot police fired rubber bullets and non-lethal bean-bags to disperse the crowd

Nazi bean-baggers ! Damn you bean-bag tea-baggers !!

Protesting:

was shot dead after threatening a passer-by with a knife. He ignored orders from bicycle officers to drop his weapon, instead lunging at them, a spokesman said.

“He was ordered several times in English and Spanish to drop the knife, and failed to comply,” said Beck.

“The suspect then raised the knife over his head and advanced on officers, at which time an officer-involved shooting occurred”

Infamy !!!

Bicycle cop nazis !!!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/second-night-of-clashes-after-immigrant-killed-by-police-in-la/story-fn3dxix6-1225916056781

Myrddin Seren

8 Sep 10 at 6:47 pm
I thought Bird’s theory was 9/11 was a Russian plot? He changes his tune more than a teenage boy’s voice.

Infidel Tiger

8 Sep 10 at 6:50 pm
I vote KRudd for Defence Minister.

Me too.

“War educates the senses, calls into action the will, perfects the physical constitution…”. It’ll be good for us. And that Japanese will get a rematch.

Adrien

8 Sep 10 at 6:51 pm
I think perhaps a new office of baboon management might be created for Kevvie. Oh that’s right. He had that job and the baboons kicked him out.

Adrien

8 Sep 10 at 6:52 pm
Not hiding anything at all, Stevie. I’ve always supported John Humprhreys carbon tax with direct income tax set-offs. It’s a great idea and later he also added targeting the tax level to global mean temp which could even be perhaps finessed to water Ph levels.

That would do me just fine.

Add nuclear energy into the mix and I’m there for you Steve. But no sex of any kind as I’m 100% hetro.

JC

8 Sep 10 at 6:52 pm
Got any other funny stories about people dying to share with us, CL?

The headline is funny, Tillman, not the story. But then, you know that – don’t you, you mentally unwell imbecile?

Try to remember that you were banned from Catallaxy for legally actionable vilification of Jews using a false name and email address.

Also that you laughed at the orchestrated mass rapes and murder following World War II as so many “broken eggs” needed to make an omelette.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 7:56 pm
Andrew, sorry – not only have you changed your explanation but you’ve provided no evidence to support either of your arguments.

There is written evidence that supports my take on this largely irrelevant matter.

I remain puzzled by the Islamophobia that seems to undergird some people’s anger about Obama having been a boy Muslim.

Give him a break.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 7:59 pm
This debnate over whether Obama was a Muslim is really a vital and importan….

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Adrien

8 Sep 10 at 8:11 pm
The headline is funny, Tillman,

What made it funny, CL?

The fact that it contained the word “boob”?

Does the word “boob” cause you to have a fit of hysterical laughter?

How about “boobies”? Do you find that even funnier, CL?

How about if I said “titty bum bum”? Did that make you crack up?

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 8:11 pm
Oh and another question, CL.

Have you ever actually seen a “boob”? (Your gran’s don’t count.)

Do you find the word “boob” hysterically funny because female breasts are, to you, a source of sublime mystery?

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 8:12 pm
Moving right along….

Whether or not Obama’s parents or guardians believed him to be a Muslim as a child is fairly irrelevant, as one above poster points out, until you’re of an age where you actually care about stuff, your religious affiliation is nominal at best.

You think five year olds know anything about the religion they are born into?

Quentin George

8 Sep 10 at 8:36 pm
Does the word “boob” cause you to have a fit of hysterical laughter?‘

Well, it’s funnier than “Ron Pauline Hanson” (Ron Paul + Pauline Hanson – Hil-AR-ious!!), if that’s what you mean. Or vilifying Jews on blogs (before being banned). Or laughing about an orchestrated mass rape and mass murder campaign. (LOL!). Or threatening to bash a 67 year-old Jew at a train station.

But you forgot the other surname in the story: Butts. Have you ever actually seen “butts,” Tillman? I mean, besides fantasised renderings of Obama’s and Al Gore’s.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 8:40 pm
“These are people who were wearing sheets over their heads 25 years ago.”

- Oddly, Florida congressman Alan Grayson compares the crowd at Beck’s recent Washington rally to members of the Democrat Party’s terrorist wing.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 8:55 pm
Butts. Have you ever actually seen “butts,” Tillman?

Alas, I must defer to your vastly superior knowledge and experience in that area, CL.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 9:06 pm
CL, remember when your sidekick Nanuestalker used to spend time at the ‘Cat?

Remember how the two of you used to trade poo jokes?

Or actually you’d just make a poo joke and Nanu would snigger.

CL: Poo poo

Nanu: ha ha ha ha that’s funny CL.

CL: I do a wee wee

Nanu: ha ha wee wee

And then I called you on it and asked you to give the poo jokes a rest for a while and you got embarrassed and stopped but now I see you are back to your old antics.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 9:14 pm
Always multiple comments at a time in rebuttal.

Even you realise how lame you are.

Remember how the two of you used to trade poo jokes?

No, I don’t. But as the only ‘man’ on Catallaxy ever to raise the subject of an interlocutor’s grandmother’s breasts, you’re not psychologically well placed for the role of internet Will H. Hays.

However, I do remember you telling the readers that you once saw 67 year-old Jew, Joe Lieberman, at a train station and that you fantasised about bashing him. You were angry with him for collaborating with Bushitler. Like many others, I was gobsmacked by your psychopathy. It came as no surprise to learn that you were banned by Sinclair Davidson for posting actionable anti-semitic rants using a false name and email address.

Now you’ve moved on to shit – which, for you, is not exactly an intellectual metamorphosis.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 9:25 pm
CL, don’t get me wrong.

I think your poo jokes are some of your best material.

Tillman

8 Sep 10 at 9:37 pm
I’m sure Sinclair felt the same way when he issued you with this warning about your anti-semitism.

Some of your best material.

Now you’ve moved on to shit and grandmothers’ breasts.

It isn’t for nought that you’ve had your mental health questioned here on a regular basis.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 9:52 pm
Rasmussen poll seems to prove the existence of a Tea Party Majority.

Sixty-eight percent (68%) of U.S. voters prefer a smaller government with fewer services and lower taxes to a more active one that offers more services and higher taxes. That’s the second highest finding in Rasmussen Reports surveying on the question since November 2006, exceeded only by a 70% finding in August of last year.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 24% of voters prefer a more active government with more services and higher taxes.

Interesting.

C.L.

8 Sep 10 at 10:03 pm
Evidence? You mean all the stuff he has said himself is not evidence? If you insist:
http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/11/12/obama_has_never_been_a_muslim_1.php
All you have is a document written by a third party to a third party in a country where it was illegal to be agnostic.
Wrong again, C.L. – is it not a “fact”, it was your error.
Are you going to continue with this or give up?

Andrew Reynolds

8 Sep 10 at 11:50 pm
Really good piece by a guy named Walter Meade on the destruction of the environmental movement’s big ideas.

He argues that even with a president holding the largest majorities since LBJ he couldn’t get his green policies through the Congress. It’s well and truly over for them. The reason is he suggests that whereas environmentalism used to once be a libertarian movement, rallying against big government actions etc. Bambi has now become Godzilla. Original libertarian environmentalists used to try to make people aware of complex systems and one size fits all will not work

Worth reading.
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/08/28/the-greening-of-godzilla/

JC

8 Sep 10 at 11:56 pm
Interesting meeting with a journalist and Fidel Castro.

Castro says tell Iran’s uncle A to leave the Jews alone..

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/09/fidel-to-ahmadinejad-stop-slandering-the-jews/62566/

JC

9 Sep 10 at 12:37 am
Day one of the Rainbow Peace Train Love Dove Alliance Government:

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-election/first-cracks-appear-20100908-151b2.html?autostart=1

Hmm, not so good.

Infidel Tiger

9 Sep 10 at 12:48 am
Evidence? You mean all the stuff he has said himself is not evidence?

Strictly speaking, no. This may come as a shock to you, Andrew, but politicians say all sorts of things about themselves. Like “I did not have sex with that woman.” Was that evidence? One of the things a presidential aspirant wouldn’t tend to say during a campaign is that he used to be a Muslim. It would only have added fuel to the fire of conspiracy theories on the right-wing fringe – whose sense of shame about his past, quite oddly, you seem to share.

There is a document that says his religion was Islam.

Evidence.

Your explanation:

“Just an assumption made decades ago by a step-father who really seems not to have cared about religion at all.”

To which, I say again:

Do you have any evidence it was an assumption?

Do you have proof he didn’t care about religion at all?

No. You don’t.

You then changed stories:

“I suspect it was so that he got free schooling that he was listed as an Indonesian citizen on the form – the “Islam” on it was probably for the same reason.”

So you changed your theory. It wasn’t an indifferent stepfather, after all (for which you have no evidence); it was a presumptuous official.

For which, of course, you have no evidence.

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 1:36 am
Good to see the Koran bonfire pastor is holding firm. I can thimk of few books more deserving of incineration.

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/international/article/92432–fla-rev-still-plans-to-burn-the-qur-an

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 1:46 am
Yobbo – not only might it result in your murder but it would unnecessarily offend many law-abiding, god-fearing Moslems who just want to live their lives in peace and quiet like everyone else.

I’m sorry but if you believe anything written in that book, and treat it as some kind of guide for life, then you deserve to be offended, ostracised and treated with suspicion.

Islam is not a religion, the Quran doesn’t even claim to be the word of god. It is a code of fascist laws that should have been abandoned hundreds of years ago. We shouldn’t respect any Muslims’s right to not be offended any more than we should respect Nazis rights to not be offended.

And the same goes for religious fanatics of any religion. If you actually believe that a book is the written instructions from an omniscient deity than you are retarded, and if you try to force others to follow the instructions of that non-existent deity then you are evil.

Believe what you like in the privacy of your own home, but every time I here some fuckhead banging on about God, it makes me want to start talking on national TV about anal fisting and Shit eating and see how much they enjoy me exercising my equally valid right to be an offensive, annoying fucktard.

Let’s not beat around the bush.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 2:08 am
I think you’re holding back a bit there, yobs. Did you perhaps leave anything out?

JC

9 Sep 10 at 2:14 am
And might I add Sinclair, that muslims do not want to live in law abiding peace. One of the basic tenets of the religion is that the law of the state is not the law of god, and therefore does not apply to muslims. If you believe in the serparation of church and state, then you are, by definition, not a muslim.

So actually declaring yourself to be a muslim is no more than an admission that you will only be law-abiding to the extent that the laws in question agrees with the laws supposedly laid down by the mystical sky fairie that spoke to the world through the voice of some medievel paedophile.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 2:15 am
I think that’s going a little far. Believing in the Koran alone should not necessarily be grounds for ostracisation or suspicion so much as pity, but publicly proclaiming the hateful nonsense that is contained within is a different thing entirely. We are dealing with a group of serial hypocrites who happily preach that other people are going to be fried in a mythical hell, but then have a big whinge when someone wants to burn their incendiary text. “I’m allowed to call for your flesh to be melted away, but don’t you dare hold a lighter near my holy book.”

No. It is insulting to non-believers that this pastor should be held to different standards than the book he proposes to burn. I move, therefore, that the Koran be set alight. Daily.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 2:36 am
Here is a very good scholarly website on the Koran.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 2:43 am
“Gonna keep this list in your cut and paste memory for the next 3 years, hey, CL?”

Yes, what is that, six times it’s been repeated in the two days since CL promised “One last time with the checklist”?

It’s also not keeping up with the latest numbers. 2PP total has oscillated again, and is now (though who knows for how long) in Labor’s favour. And the 2PP swing to the Coalition wasn’t that big, at 2.69%.

This election does highlight some of the problems with our electoral system. Winning more votes doesn’t mean you get to form government, for example, which has happened several times that I’m aware of. The number of votes you get isn’t reflected in the number of seats you win. You can even win the most seats, but without a majority you don’t get an automatic win (though whether that’s an actual problem is an open question – plenty of countries seem to survive with ‘minority’ governments).

Jarrah

9 Sep 10 at 2:44 am
Believing in the Koran alone should not necessarily be grounds for ostracisation or suspicion so much as pity

If you have a serious belief in Islam, you better believe that I will at the very least suspect you of being a misogynist who treats women as property and forces his beliefs on the rest of his immediate family. And since those family members – especially children – can’t really do anything about it, they are very likely to suffer at the hands of your oppressive and archaic religion.

Sorry, but that’s just the truth. Islam is evil, people who believe in it are Evil, brainwashed or stupid at best.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 2:47 am
“Islam is evil, people who believe in it are Evil, brainwashed or stupid at best.”

As far as I’m concerned, anyone who genuinely believes in an organised religion has been brainwashed. And parts of Islam are definitely evil, as are parts of other religions. Islam probably has a substantial lead, though, due to the tendency towards fundamentalism.

Jarrah

9 Sep 10 at 2:53 am
My feeling is if the guy wants to burn the book in a liberal society, subject to any law preventing it (fire ordinance and the like), he has to be let do it.

It’s probably the most stupid, inarticulate, offensive thing it’s possible to do, and it also carries with it appalling historical connotations. It would be far better if he articulated his arguments against Islamic doctrine and published them. However I don’t think that ultimately matters.

It is also the least likely thing to enhance the image of Christianity, but if the guy wants to discredit his own religion that’s his problem (and perhaps a problem for whatever church authorities have jurisdiction).

If you take the pragmatic view that it does matter, you’re admitting that a violent response to the act by some people carries weight in the balance of considerations. On a point of principle like this it shouldn’t.

Taylor

9 Sep 10 at 3:02 am
I think you miss the point of the book burning exercise Taylor. It’s that he knows he will provoke a violent response, and therefore disprove (yet again) the whole “religion of peace” lie.

Unfortunately there are still a lot of awfully deluded people around who think that fanatical muslims are just misunderstood, and there’s no grievance there that a bit of social justice and apologising couldn’t fix.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 3:06 am
I think people who believe the Koran literally are generally brainwashed and possibly evil. At the same time, I’ve known quite a few people who called themselves “Muslims” who didn’t fit into either category. But this was in spite of the Koran, not because of it – were I to confront them with the hateful stuff that they are supposed to believe about me, they’d have to wave it off as “lacking context”. In other words, all the nice stuff is to be taken literally, even in non-Arabic, but the nasty stuff requires a doctoral thesis and anyway cannot be translated into English. Cute, isn’t it?

They should just skip the next 200 years of agonizing and admit it’s all bollocks, but of course that won’t happen. So let’s give them the full Voltaire treatment, with some edgy 60′s stuff thrown in. We must burn the Koran at once.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 3:10 am
I understand that.

I’m saying the violent consequences of the book-burning (whether he fully expects them to follow or not), ultimately shouldn’t matter in deciding whether he is allowed to go ahead.

There are material (as well as ideological) causes of Islamic fundamentalism, but that’s not presently the point. Actions by guys like this are inconsequential in that context.

Taylor

9 Sep 10 at 3:18 am
You have to love how some yokel burning a Koran in front of about 10 people is enough to “destroy communal relations” for billions of other people, according to the liberal elite. Sort of says a lot about the strength of “interfaith harmony” if that’s all it takes to bring the whole thing unstuck. This is another good reason to burn the Koran. It’s a timely stress test for multiculturalism that no genuine believer in diversity can honesty oppose.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 3:32 am
Taylor I was responding to this:

It would be far better if he articulated his arguments against Islamic doctrine and published them.

Why would that be better? It would be entirely pointless. The point of the whole Koran-Burning exercise is not to argue against Islamic doctrine. It’s to illustrate that fanatical muslims are still quite happy to murder in the name of the religion, and that you don’t really have to do much to set them off on a murder spree.

Not that anyone should be in doubt about that sort of thing since the murder of Theo Van Gogh and the threats against Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders. Unfortunately though some people are fucking thick, and thus need continual reminders of the kind of people we are dealing with, which is why burning the Koran should not only be allowed, but should be encouraged.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 3:37 am
That doesn’t follow for me.

Van Gogh was murdered for making a film.

Ali and Wilders and others have been threatened for verbal criticisms of the religion.

If you want to make a point, why not make it like they did? Why burn the book and associate yourself with people like the Nazis?

Taylor

9 Sep 10 at 3:41 am
Burning a book is a form of speech just the same as making a film. Perhaps the pastor isn’t making a film because he doesn’t know how to. Should political speech be limited to those with the creativity and technological know-how requried to produce a film?

Burning pamphlets or books has long been a form of political speech used by many worthy movements.

The nazis also drove cars, wore boots and read stories to their children before bed. Should we look down on people who do that because the nazis did them too?

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 3:48 am
Should political speech be limited to those with the creativity and technological know-how required to produce a film?

No, clearly not.

Burning pamphlets or books has long been a form of political speech used by many worthy movements.

You could well be right, but I don’t know of them by name. I suspect you would be going back before the 19th Century.

Should we look down on people who do that because the nazis did them too?

Personally, if I have to be killed by a “religious” lunatic for something, I’d rather die for writing a book than destroying one.

Taylor

9 Sep 10 at 3:56 am
Yobbo

Last comment went to moderation for some reason. Signing off for now.

Taylor

9 Sep 10 at 3:57 am
Nothing wrong with burning Nazi books.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 4:19 am
“I remain puzzled by the Islamophobia that seems to undergird some people’s anger about Obama having been a boy Muslim.”

I see how you did that. Changing it round so that Karl’s stance becomes defensible. If no one notices, perhaps your little sleight of hand will replace reality.

Your secret is safe with me.

Ev630

9 Sep 10 at 6:05 am
10 aid workers were murdered in Afghanistan by the Taliban for supposedly preaching Christianity – which the charity has since denied.

Just being a Christian (or non-Muslim) is enough to get you shot. I say “screw them” – it’s one rule for them, and one rule for us. If some Muslims want to do a bible burning in response, fair enough. But somehow I doubt they’ll stop at that.

boy on a bike

9 Sep 10 at 6:09 am
Why burn it when he could wipe his arse with it, that’s all I’m saying.

Waste of good toilet paper.

Quentin George

9 Sep 10 at 7:38 am
“Nothing wrong with burning Nazi books.”

That is “just not getting it” perfectly encapsulated.

The “when I do it it’s cute” version of Fascism.

FDB

9 Sep 10 at 9:14 am
I see how you did that. Changing it round so that Karl’s stance becomes defensible.

No. I see how you did that, Ev. Conflate the subject with the Bird monster’s invenory of conspiracy theories on how Obama is a secret Muslim, I mean.

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 9:16 am
The “when I do it it’s cute” version of Fascism.

On that subject, Powerline on anti-semitism and leftist collaboration with Muslim Nazis:

One of the most chilling phenomena of our time is the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe. The dirty work, the threats and violence that are causing Jews to leave Europe, is carried out more or less exclusively by young Muslim immigrants. But implicit sanction for anti-Semitism comes straight from the top, as top European political, business and social leaders make little effort to hide their contempt for Jews.

The most recent case is that of Karel De Gucht, the European trade commissioner. On Thursday he gave an interview to a Belgian radio station, in the course of which he volunteered his opinions on the Jews:

On Thursday, with the Middle East peace process in the news, Mr. De Gucht picked yet another fight. Jews, he told Belgian radio, have a “belief” that they are “always right.” He described his frustration at debating the Middle East because “it is not easy even with a moderate Jew to have a conversation.”

He continued: “Don’t underestimate the power of the Jewish lobby in the capital. That is best organized lobby in the states. And they have an influence on politicians, Republicans and Democrats.”

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 9:25 am
CL, I’m not really getting the connection, but anti-semitism is bad, you’re correct.

FDB

9 Sep 10 at 9:31 am
FDB: There’s a difference between burning a book to make a point and burning books in order to censor them.

It’s not like burning a Koran or a Bible or a copy of The Australian is going to stop anyone reading one. It’s making a statement of disapproval of the content.

The Eureka Rioters burned their mining licenses, I guess they were Nazis too.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 9:31 am
Funny, but no one mentions the very practical concerns of Americans with family on the ground in Afghanistan as to any Koran burning publicity inspiring some more Taliban (or just nutty individual) troop attacks.

It’s a valid criticism of the Left that it likes pointless tokenistic showmanship over real results. Seems some libertarians have the same weakness.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 9:41 am
I can thimk of few books more deserving of incineration.

No books are deserving of incineration.

Not the Koran, not Mein Kampf, not even the memoirs of Kyle Sandilands.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 9:42 am
Fisk was clearly suggesting that there’s “nothing wrong” with book-burning when he finds the material objectionable.

That’s the beginning and end of what I was responding to – of course there are different forms of symbolic burning (not always bad) and actual censorship by burning (always bad).

FDB

9 Sep 10 at 9:43 am
Yeah steve, because I’m sure that refraining to burn Korans will make the Taliban surrender and stop trying to kill American soldiers, am I right?

Like I said earlier you are better off burning more of them to weed them out faster. Then those soldiers can go home sooner when the nutters are all dead.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 9:43 am
Burning a book is a form of speech just the same as making a film.

Oh, bullshit.

Legitimate political discourse consists of putting a superior product into the marketplace of ideas.

I would have thought that was a basic tenet of libertarianism.

Book burning is the exact opposite of having a competitive market for ideas – it’s saying I can’t be bothered coming up with a better idea than you have, so I am just going to destroy, in a violent and threatening manner, your ideas.

Book burning is an inherently illegitimate tactic. It doesn’t matter who does it and it doesn’t matter what’s being burned.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 9:47 am
Re the book burning, there is – as it were – an in-built and irresistable motivation for doing it and that is to demolish the rhetoric of a ‘small minority’ of Muslims behaving badly, a ‘religion of peace’ etc. When Newsweek published its story about the Koran-in-the-dunny, dozens of people were killed throughout the world. The story, which was false, was – this is fair to say – promoted by various lefties seeking to stir up trouble (to embarrass Bushitler). I don’t know those of a leftist disposition can now complain about the shit-stirring some yokel Christian minister is doing.

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 9:47 am
Yobbo, I would be interested to know what the Americans (and Australians) on the ground there, trying to win the confidence of locals, think about your high moral point.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 9:49 am
Tillman, I’m pretty sure Libertarianism isn’t a synonym for “everything Tillman thinks is cool”, and trying to troll everyone here by accusing them of not being libertarian enough whenever they say something you don’t like is probably not going to work.

Book Burning is no different to flag burning or burning an effigy or burning your draft card or whatever else you want to burn. It’s designed to be deliberately offensive, but there’s no real need to ban it as long as the fires are small enough to not be a danger to anyone.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 9:53 am
Yeah, Steve.

I bet some mother who gets the word that her kid was blown up by an IED will be really satisfied to have such strong evidence that Islam is not a religion of peace.

I’m sure all the family members of servicemen who get killed in Afghanistan or wherever else will consider their loss worthwhile, if it advances Yobbo’s rhetorical point.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 9:54 am
Are you saying, CL, that because a leftist motivated story helped cause unnecessary death, it’s fine for a rightist nutter to do the same?

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 9:54 am
Steve: What makes you think I am trying to make some kind of moral point?

I think they should burn more Korans in order to actually to encourage more attacks. To serve as a sort of radical muslim flypaper, if you will.

Certainly making them angry and making them try to martyr themselves is not going to result in giving them any sort of strategic advantage here.

The mistake you make is to think that radical muslims in places like Afghanistan are not already trying their absolute hardest to kill every Australian and American soldier they see.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 9:56 am
but there’s no real need to ban it

Where did I said it should be banned? I said it was illegitimate, not that it should be banned.

Book burning, flag burning – that should all be legal.

People should be free to engage in stupid, illegitimate, offensive acts.

Doesn’t make them any less stupid, illegitimate or offensive.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 9:56 am
You say that like being offensive is always bad.

Some people deserve to be offended. Especially violent religious zealots. The more offended they get the better. The more likely they are to show their true colours so we can put bullets in their heads, before they can hurt any more people than they already have.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 10:00 am
Absolutely no prob with book burning – or flag burning – as long as it’s their own property.

Fleeced

9 Sep 10 at 10:03 am
“I think they should burn more Korans in order to actually to encourage more attacks. To serve as a sort of radical muslim flypaper, if you will.”

Well, to help rid Australia of radical islamism, I look forward to you going through with the proposed Koran bum wiping exercise on Youtube. Make sure to add your address.

I’m sure there’s a bunch of Australian colonels willing to try your petrol-throwing-on-the-fire tactics in Afghanistan too.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 10:10 am
Perhaps we should be withdrawing our troops from Afghanistan and sending them out to western Sydney to fight the intifada.

Infidel Tiger

9 Sep 10 at 10:18 am
The difference between the guys in Afghanistan and me, Steve, is that they are allowed to defend themselves and I am not.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 10:22 am
Regardless of what you think of Brendan Fevola, there can be no doubt that the AFL is a fascist regime:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/lions-investigate-brendan-fevola-complaint-as-afl-stars-future-hangs-in-balance/story-e6frf9jf-1225915882855

What about the disgraqceful use of resources by the Victorian Police? Waiting a year to charge someone with being drunk at a private function?

Infidel Tiger

9 Sep 10 at 10:22 am
Hey I have a theory that the Japanese aren’t really that peaceful, despite their constitution etc. I think they are just as aggro as they were in the ’30s.

And I think we should prove it.

So let’s all engage in a campaign of racial vilification of the Japs. Let’s see if we can’t think of the most offensive, obnoxious, provocative anti-Japanese things we can do. Burn the rising sun flag, get Yobbo to take a dump on a Sony DVD player on live tv, draw cartoons of a pokemon character getting drilled in the ass by Uncle Sam and print them on the front page of every newspaper.

And then, when the Japs get aggro in response, we will have proved our point and it will be all worthwhile.

Hopefully, if we do it right, they’ll murder a bunch of Europeans.

Solid plan, right?

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 10:23 am
Hey I have a theory that the Japanese aren’t really that peaceful, despite their constitution etc. I think they are just as aggro as they were in the ’30s.

Tillman apparently thinks Islam really is a religion of peace.

Have fun debating yourself Tillman, I’m not going to waste any more time with someone who is completely delusional.

Also the dvd player thing and pokemons getting raped would probably be big hits in Japan.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 10:33 am
“get Yobbo to take a dump on a Sony DVD player on live tv, draw cartoons of a pokemon character getting drilled in the ass by Uncle Sam”

I’mn ot sure the Japanese don’t have a game show based around the first, and the second sounds like something you can already buy in the seedier districts of Tokyo.

Steve Edney

9 Sep 10 at 10:46 am
Oh great, Oakshitt will take another month to decide whether he wants the position and then deliver a one hour oration on it

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/abbott-offered-a-slice-of-power-20100908-151cf.html?autostart=1

Mr Oakeshott is considering accepting the newly created cabinet post of minister for regional Australia but fears it may bind his vote and is seeking advice.

jtfsoon

9 Sep 10 at 10:52 am
Actually i’m 100% sure you can already buy vids of Japanese girls in Kimonos getting drilled in the ass by black guys in WWII us military uniforms, and the subtitles are all in Japanese.

It’s a highly advanced form of cuckhold fantasy and you can probably buy the DVD from a vending machine on the floor of the Tokyo Stock exchange right next to the Coca Cola and peanuts.

Yobbo

9 Sep 10 at 10:53 am
Are you saying, CL, that because a leftist motivated story helped cause unnecessary death, it’s fine for a rightist nutter to do the same?

No Steve. That’s not what I’m saying. That’s just you being an idiot.

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 10:55 am
You don’t have to burn a Koran,just start a rumour that one was flushed down a toilet

tal

9 Sep 10 at 11:31 am
Would it be ok to immerse a Koran in jar of urine? If it was done artistically?

It could be given an edgy name like “Piss Koran”.

Will Kane

9 Sep 10 at 11:57 am
Ok, let’s assume Islam is not a “religion of peace”. (I’m not even sure what that statement means, or how it serves to distinguish Islam from Christianity, Hinduism, Scientology, Judaism etc, bet let’s assume it’s true.)

Let’s further assume that burning Korans will demonstrate conclusively that Islam is not a religion of peace (presumably because it will successfully inspire a violent backlash).

Now I’m a big fan of intellectual inquiry for the sake of intellectual inquiry, but I just don’t get what advantage is to be gained from proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Islam is not a peaceful religion.

I mean, there may be some debate about whether some particular species of shark attacks humans.

But who would volunteer to conclusively prove that they do?

Just seems to me that there are more fruitful and interesting lines of inquiry to undertake.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 12:02 pm
I’m actually with Tillman on that. No one, not even the most offensive left wingers believe Islam is a religion of peace. It’s cranked up bullshit. But why provoke them into a response and we end up with a few dozen non-Muslims being killed as a result of the provocation.

I like stirring up and shit like the next person, but I honestly can’t see any reason to do so here.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 12:28 pm
Jason:

I actually support Oakenshitt getting a spot. I really want to see it.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 12:30 pm
Sarah Palin agrees. She just went up like 5 notches in my estimation

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/burning-koran-like-building-911-mosque-palin/story-e6frg6so-1225916275079

jtfsoon

9 Sep 10 at 12:30 pm
Meanwhile Birdy goes native. He’s been hanging around the ABC too much

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/09/08/the-benign-outcome-of-the-three-statesmen/#comment-32566

Very good article by Kim at Prodeo for a change. Look when these people are right they are right. There is an incredible inversion going on here and a really nasty attempt at character-assassination and anti-ruralism. The independents have as much right to side with one side or the other, as the Labour and Liberals have to gang together and pass things over the independents heads.

This is a better outcome then Tony winning. Tony has to deep-six the idea of getting all the rich girls pregnant and the poor guys paying for it. He’s got to stop the triangulation towards the anti-CO2 idiocy; that utter crime against science. He wanted to waste money mixing charcoal into the dirt.

jtfsoon

9 Sep 10 at 12:33 pm
So Birdie has gone rural too.

There isn’t a quack he doesn’t support. In fact Bird’s like a web quack magnet. Post on the web or say anything that is even mildly deranged and Bird has you as a friend for life.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 12:37 pm
My problem with this proposal to burn the Koran is the idea that we enjoy a right to gratuitously offend or deliberately incite hatred of anyone we please is simply daft and undermines civility. And I don’t mean simply civility in terms of good manners only but in terms of the civil relationship; why should some one set aside their private interests when deliberating on matters of public policy when they see their fellow-citizens acting disrespectfully towards their revered beliefs, symbols, etc.?

dover_beach

9 Sep 10 at 12:44 pm
Exactly, dover.

jtfsoon

9 Sep 10 at 12:48 pm
The ground zero mosque is also deliberately provocative too though I’ve seen any Muslims being beaten to death for suggesting it.

I personally want to see them build it right there near ground zero to prove what a nasty religion it really is.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 12:48 pm
Apparently this ‘church’ has only 50 members and is associated with the Westboro mob. You have to ask why the world’s biggest and most powerful media organs would want to publicise such a small-scale yokel irrelevancy as this. But, of course, we know why. They want blood. The appropriate response from Muslims would be condescension and indifference. Amazingly, though, many of their leaders and rabble-rowsers want to kill people instead. That’s a given.

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 12:49 pm
And it won’t be Yobbo who gets killed.

It will probably be some poor bloody Kenyans or Somalis or Dutchmen just going about their business who end up murdered for no reason.

So we can then say, ah those Muzzers are a violent mob aren’t they.

And this will reflect well upon the liberal secular west how exactly?

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 12:50 pm
I think the ground zero mosque is a stupid idea too. I don’t think the guy behind it was being deliberately provocative though, but you don’t tempt fate like that.

jtfsoon

9 Sep 10 at 12:50 pm
oops haven’t seen

JC

9 Sep 10 at 12:51 pm
But, of course, we know why. They want blood.

No they don’t. They want ratings, moron.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 12:51 pm
The mosque is not at ground zero.

It’s being built several blocks away, on the site of an abandoned clothing store.

Lower Manhattan is not some sort of sacred ground, 9/11 notwithstanding.

There are titty bars and strip clubs and crappy bodegas and Wendys and nasty takeaway food joints and discount stores and dodgy electronics shops much, much closer to the hallowed ground of the WTC than this mosque is.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 12:53 pm
Tillers
I don’t support a law preventing its being built. Private property is private property. But the guy should have reconsidered.

jtfsoon

9 Sep 10 at 12:55 pm
CL:

Obviously this church with 50 members contacted the media to report it. The media hounds realize there’s a scoop in there somewhere because they can then tie this book burning with a few dozen deaths in parts of the Muslim world after it’s done. So it becomes a big story. I can’t see any real political overhang in this.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 12:56 pm
The mosque is not going to be built. The area is a union card area which means you can’t lift a hammer unless it’s done by someone with a union card and quite honestly I can’t see any union member working down there.

The NYC building unions will refuse to even consider it.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 12:59 pm
There are titty bars and strip clubs and crappy bodegas and Wendys and nasty takeaway food joints and discount stores and dodgy electronics shops much, much closer to the hallowed ground of the WTC than this mosque is

lol… Yea it’s a shit hole for the most part though not all… at least as far as the surrounding Wall Street area of downtown is concerned.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 1:09 pm
“There are titty bars and strip clubs and crappy bodegas and Wendys and nasty takeaway food joints and discount stores and dodgy electronics shops much, much closer to the hallowed ground of the WTC than this mosque is”

lol… Yea it’s a shit hole for the most part though not all… at least as far as the surrounding Wall Street area of downtown is concerned.

It reminds me an awful of of Sydney CBD down there.. LOL.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 1:10 pm
But, of course, we know why. They want blood.

Which intelligent people would know implied that they wanted that blood for ratings.

‘Intelligent people’ excludes our own Westboro Kid, Tillman – banned here for vilifying Jews under the blog editorship of a Jew and forever raving on about Catholicism.

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 1:13 pm
IS there any reason why the Coaolition cannot now operate as a Government in the Parlaiament. After all the PM and ministry is merely a convention with no real constutional basis.

Can’t Tony now introduce legislation and dare the Indeps to block it? If Oakshit and Windsor are so fucking virtupus shouldn’t they give equal attention to Coalition bills as they do to Lavor bills? Should Tony therefore suggest to the GG that she should appoint him co-PM on the basis that he has just as much chance getting his program through the house as Gillrudd has?

Rococo Liberal

9 Sep 10 at 1:23 pm
Good point, RL.

I’d send a guided missile their way and ask for $1 billion funding of the Tasmanian hospital and see what happens. The Wilkie fuck asked for it. Let’s see how the little fraud reacts.

I’d also demand a vote that any further progress on the NBN must also included a fully audited CBA. Audited by outside firm.

I’d also demand through a vote that all funding for the Indeps electorates must be fully disclosed and amounts that are over and above normative spending highlighted.

Stick a red hot pole up the rear and see those two cowards reaction.

Lets see how they vote.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 1:30 pm
I listened to that deadshit Tony Windsor on Bolt’s radio link last evening. The fucking idiot doesn’t seem to even understand what a CBA is.

The mumbling, bumbling old fool kept talking about been shown how much it would cost and at one stage suggested that was the CBA.

He’s like a clueless old uncle that needs to be put in a nursing home asap.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 1:36 pm
And Pyne gets it.

By the time this parliament is finished Oakenshitt won’t no if he’s Arthur or Martha and Windsor will be deposited in a nursing home.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/pyne-promises-torrid-tactics-in-new-parliament/story-fn59niix-1225916115992

Pyne will be asking for a vote on a judicial inquiry into the BER fiasco.

That puts Oakenshitt, Adam Ant, Windsor, and Wilkie square in the sight of a howitzer.

Let us see how they vote.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 1:53 pm
Fisk was clearly suggesting that there’s “nothing wrong” with book-burning when he finds the material objectionable.

No, that’s not my opinion. There are lots of books that I don’t like, but wouldn’t dream of burning. My stated position is that there is nothing wrong with burning books that explicitly call for me to be burned, in gory detail. It’s the Golden Rule in action.

A few commentators here have got their nickers in a twist about “causing offence”. I’ll tell you what’s offensive. Saying that you have the duty to beat your wife for being disobedient is offensive. Saying that you will fight Jews and Christians until they pay tribute is offensive. And saying that non-believers will be whipped and burned alive in oil is offensive.

We must burn this wicked, hateful book at once.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 2:01 pm
To what purpose, Fisk? You burn the book and what do you get out it?

They could have burnt it by themselves without the publicity and no one would be the wiser.

And you could burn one too and no one gives a toss.

It really is no biggie burning the Koran. You hardly need to call the media about it. What they want is a reaction and the reaction is some poor schlum or schlums somewhere that had nothing to do with this stunt is/are going to be killed.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 2:07 pm
My problem with this proposal to burn the Koran is the idea that we enjoy a right to gratuitously offend or deliberately incite hatred of anyone we please is simply daft and undermines civility.

I fully agree with you that we shouldn’t gratuituously offend people. At the same time, those who do childishly insult and deride others are deserving of ostracism and should be appropriately “paid back”. The Koran is such an example. It repeatedly insults (in very dehumanising terms) the character and humanity of people who do not believe in it. There is no moral reason why we shouldn’t burn an incendiary book of its kind.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 2:10 pm
Can’t Tony now introduce legislation and dare the Indeps to block it

Yep. And the Greens announced yesterday that they encouraged him to do so. The Greens! How about that? maybe they’re not so bad after all.

He can introduce anything he likes. For example, insisting on a CBA. He could even introduce an alternative budget for that matter, and make the independents choose the Labor budget over his.

daddy dave

9 Sep 10 at 2:13 pm
JC, it’s an exercise in exposing the hypocrisy of: “You are an infidel and will burn in hell. But don’t you dare burn my book!!!”

The BBQ would be quite a powerful statement if the pastor put it in those terms. And it would force a billion or so people to reflect on WHY they believe this nonsense.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 2:13 pm
So Michael’s in favour of burning the Bible. How are you with that CL?

sdfc

9 Sep 10 at 2:40 pm
Fisk

we don’t need a well publicized book burning routine by some redneck preacher in Buttfuck Florida to tell us that 5% of that religion are fucking violent nutballs.

If you feel the need to burn a Koran, no one’s stopping you from doing so. However if you’re publicising this stuff you’re running the risk of some poor schmuck is downtown Mogadishu walking down the street and collecting a thrust of bullets from an AK47 becuse he’s a known christian by he local bearded nutcases.

It’s just not worth the effort.

Stay out of this discussion, SDFC because if your adherence to voodoo economics is any take you won’t be helping. This is a discussion among the cognoscenti and no idiot is invited.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 2:52 pm
We must burn this wicked, hateful book at once.

You’re a loon.

If you don’t like the ideas in a particular book, the answer is to come up with better ideas and express them in a public forum.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 2:57 pm
Dads

All this stuff proves it’s not goign to work.

The libs though need to be careful here and not suggest they’re obstructing. They need a carefully manuscripted game plan that just continues hurting the Liars Party in front of the public and when elections are called there’s only a rump leftover.

They can do this simply because the Liars Party policies are shambolic and their alliances etc are incoherent.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 2:58 pm
http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/09/08/the-benign-outcome-of-the-three-statesmen/#comment-32568

Read Catallaxy down the page on the open thread. Cambria is so much bringing down the tone of the place. Its just one stupid and bigoted comment after another. Plus its delusional. The independents were not and are not now the cause of the overspending. This was the fault of people like those at Catallaxy who swear a blood oath to the existence of the Keynesian multiplier and refuse to follow up this irrational belief with evidence. This is the fault of the quacks in the economic profession who back eathother up and rubbish any outsiders who show them where they are wrong. Mostly of course this was the blame of the Labour team at the top of this dysfunctional government. It had nothing to do with the three independents.

jtfsoon

9 Sep 10 at 3:01 pm
Tillman, I don’t need to come up with better ideas than claptrap like “beat your wife (lightly)” and “fight the unbelievers until they pay the jizya”. Really, I don’t. There’s no intellectual discussion worth having with a bearded nut who literally believes in the Koran. Instead, we need to make it clear to them that their book is beyond the pale and highly insulting (childishly so) to non-believers. A Koran-B-Q is the fair, just and, according to some, Christian thing to do.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 3:03 pm
So Michael’s in favour of burning the Bible. How are you with that CL?

I couldn’t care less.

He’s like a clueless old uncle that needs to be put in a nursing home asap.

That reminds me, where’s our dear old friend, Homer?

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 3:05 pm
Vaudeville in Queensland:

Anna Bligh swaps in-tray for bed pan.

Anna Bligh is swapping her in-tray for a bed pan and high-heels for sensible work shoes to work a nurse orderly nightshift.

The Queensland premier, whose popularity has plunged to 26 per cent since she won the March 2009 election, has pledged to do more to get in touch with ordinary folk.

She says the nurse orderly shift, which starts just before midnight on Thursday, will help her understand the lot of the state’s health workers.

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 3:11 pm
I personally want to see them build it right there near ground zero to prove what a nasty religion it really is.

A friend of mine came up with a great idea, let all the religions build their temples at the World Trade Centre site but with all the doors facing towards the centre of the complex. That way, he reckons, they will be at each others throats in 5 mins.

John H.

9 Sep 10 at 3:11 pm
My problem with this proposal to burn the Koran is the idea that we enjoy a right to gratuitously offend or deliberately incite hatred of anyone we please is simply daft and undermines civility.

That’s the half the shock jocks out of a job and Andrew Bolt and …

John H.

9 Sep 10 at 3:14 pm
Fisk, there’s some pretty stupid stuff in Leviticus, too.

There’s also some stupid shit published in the Australian every day. Should we burn down News Corp headquarters?

And anyway, how does burning a book convey that the book is beyond the pale and highly insulting?

Did all of the writers who saw their books burned by the Nazis think to themselves, “Oh gosh maybe we went too far. Maybe we offended people. Maybe the Nazis have a good point”.

Of course not.

No one is going to have their point of view changed one whit by a book burning – EXCEPT for fence sitting, moderate Muslims (yes, they do exist) who are going to see this irrational expression of non-verbal aggression by a “Christian” pastor and infer from this act of pure rage that the US hates Muslims and, gee, maybe Osama has a point about the Crusaders.

Now what would really fuck with the heads of the jihadis would be if the west said, go ahead – express your ideas (so long as you don’t advocate violence).

Read your holy book, for whatever it’s worth. Build your mosque in Manhattan.

We don’t give a shit, because we thrive on ideas and we like having a well-stocked marketplace for them so that free-thinking individuals can make their own choices about what they want to believe and how they want to live their lives.

That’s the way we’ve done it for hundreds of years in the west, and it’s worked pretty well.

To start banning houses of worship and burning books because of some fuckwit jihadis is just a ludicrous overreaction.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 3:16 pm
Jason:

Would you mind asking Birdie to take me off his moderator as I promise I won’t call his trannie a big fat lard ball anymore.

SDFC could provide the answer.

Hey SDFC as a vulgar Keynesian, do you think anyone here believes that shit about Keynesian multipliers and stupid junk like that?

Could you please answer Birdie as he thinks we’re all like you.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 3:17 pm
Tillman asked me to edit his last piece.

Happy to , Tillers. Ask anytime.

This swill goes from
“There’s also some stupid shit published in the Australian every day. Should we burn down News Corp headquarters?”

To this correct statement:

here’s also some stupid shit published in the Australian every day. Should we burn down Fairfax headquarters?

Just call me Paul Krugman’s wife from now on, because like her I can easily change shit I don’t like.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 3:21 pm
No, I agree that banning construction of mosques is generally a bad idea, although again, a “pairing arrangement” whereby each mosque permit will be granted on the condition that an equivalent church or synagogue will be approved in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, and not before, might be a constructive way forward. Once again, it forces religious hypocrites to have a little introspection and to consider that they might have to start acting like decent people if they want to be treated with the “respect” that they so furiously demand. And that, coupled with other positive measures such as book-burnings, may well force them to change.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 3:24 pm
Fisky:

If Saudi didn’t have all that oil, no one would give a cracker about that desert and those Wahhabi loons.

Let them build it if they can and then we can all laugh at them for being such angrified pansies for thinking that sort of shit would upset us.

The only effect it would have on me if they built that silly thing would be to giggle at those would-be provocative morons who think stupid crap like that would suddenly have an effect on us.

It doesn’t. Things like having the smarts to build stuff like Iphones, great technology and having freedoms to do what we pretty well like are far more important. We have those and they don’t.

Building the mosque there is only a sign of weakness on their part. It doesn’t show any strength at all because it shouldn’t affect us.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 3:35 pm
Here’s another one for religious tribalists – every month and sometimes every week, for the last 5 years, a Shia or Sunni mosque somewhere in the world has been blown up, killing hundreds of people inside. Even as a non-believer I consider that to be sacrilegious, but where were the angry beards spilling out into the streets from Nigeria to Indonesia, demanding the heads of whoever was behind the operations? Nowhere – they were too busy complaining and making death threats over “cartoons” and “korans in the toilet” and height restrictions in Switzerland to worry about the small matter of tens of thousands of Muslims being slaughtered by other Muslims. And of course it’s “in the family”, so we have to look at these things differently.

Such people cannot be reasoned out of their narrow, tribalistic worldview. They must be shocked, terrified, bewildered and demoralised (as Christians were before them) until they finally give up in exhaustion and accept the reality and supremacy of secularism.

Michael Fisk

9 Sep 10 at 3:35 pm
Tillman, let it be recorded that I agree with you (mostly).

ken n

9 Sep 10 at 4:10 pm
Paging Jason: Clint’s next movie is a “spiritual” one about the afterlife, with executive producer Steven Spielberg (!):

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/music/la-et-clint-eastwood-20100909,0,7943805.story

Sounds interesting, even for an Eastwood skeptic like me. (Clint already looks like he’s got a foot in the grave in the very uncomplimentary photo with the article.)

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 4:12 pm
Just threw a “Gideon’s” in the incinerator

tal

9 Sep 10 at 4:23 pm
tal, I’m reporting you to the authorities for operating an incinerator.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 4:32 pm
Yeah I’ve broken about 7 laws

tal

9 Sep 10 at 4:37 pm
Can you email me your phone number? I’ll ask Bob Brown to explain to you the error of your ways. Then Wilkie can talk to you about pokies too.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 4:44 pm
A friend of mine came up with a great idea, let all the religions build their temples at the World Trade Centre site but with all the doors facing towards the centre of the complex. That way, he reckons, they will be at each others throats in 5 mins.

That was certainly the case when all the atheists of the twentieth century built their temples facing one another.

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 4:47 pm
http://healthycuriousity.blogspot.com/2010/09/epigenetics-and-ptsd.html

This news release from Science Daily highlights yet another epigenetic study that is raises difficult questions about our understanding of natural selection. There is a long, fascinating, and in some ways sad history about epigenetics. It all began with the Australian immunologist Ted Steele.

…

John H.

9 Sep 10 at 4:49 pm
Steve;

There no trailer on Clint’s movie , possibly because they pulled it. Sounds pretty good though

However another movie that does have a trailer and has received critical acclaim is Jackass 3D, which I’m sure will do really well seeing the other two did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co1OCpmjDso

As the narrator says, when Time mag. said 3D has arrived this isn’t what they had in mind.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 4:51 pm
For those who miss the Sopranos:

Martin Scorcese’s new HBO TV series, Boardwalk Empire, is supposed to be the next big thing. The pilot episode alone cost $50 million. Scroll down for YouTube series teaser. Looks good.

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 4:52 pm
Fisk, we are all agreed that jihadis and taqfiris are fuckwits. Ok? You don’t need to press that point.

And I don’t think there are even any Muslims posting here.

Probably most are atheist or agnostic. Most here (CL excluded and I don’t know who else) are fairly aggressively secularist.

I am certainly a secular non-believer.

But I am not going to let Saudi Arabia or Pakistan dictate how I live my life or what sort of society I live in.

I want to do it the way we have done it for centuries in the west. i.e. no book burning, and absolute freedom to worship, read, believe, say, think whatever the hell you want provided you don’t advocate violence and you don’t interfere with anyone else’s rights.

What you seem to want to do is just escalate and ramp shit up until we are as hysterical and violent as the taqfiris themselves are.

Not a winning plan.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 4:55 pm
Steve, you mightn’t like the new HBO series. It’s all about booze and gambling in the era of prohibition (which was the brainchild of erstwhile Wilkies).

C.L.

9 Sep 10 at 4:55 pm
Wow another great HBO series. The dudes are terrific at doing great shows.

Great setting too.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 5:01 pm
CL, if its HBO and Scorcese, I’m predicting I won’t like the f**king language.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 5:07 pm
jesus fricking christ you are one hell of a killjoy prude, steve.

you won’t watch beautifully written dramas because of swearing? what the hell do you watch? Nickolodeon?

jtfsoon

9 Sep 10 at 5:08 pm
Sponge Bob swears like a trooper

tal

9 Sep 10 at 5:11 pm
So Steve didn’t like Deadwood I’m thinking.

Steve Edney

9 Sep 10 at 5:13 pm
Tillman,
I have no objection to book burning, provided they are your own books you are burning.
I can’t think that I have burnt many books, but there are a few I have thought would probably have more calorific than intellectual value.

Andrew Reynolds

9 Sep 10 at 5:13 pm
oh lord.

Moderator.. Please ban Steve from nowheresville for being a prissy little moron.

You truly deserve a life ban, Steve, you fucking idiot.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 5:13 pm
Jason, it’s true. I’m a one man band for civility in language.

But apart from that, I do find its overuse in both real life and fiction just boring – it’s just a verbal tic now, tedious, and in the case of good drama, detracts from good writing (IMHO).

I’ve made the point before at my blog – while the lack of swearing amongst crims in older movies (or even one as recent as The Untouchables) is technically unrealistic, it doesn’t strike the viewer as such while watching it if the other movie elements are well done.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 5:18 pm
I wish these Muslims would get up to date. What happens with electronic media, do they swoon around with a huge device to emit EMFs?

John H.

9 Sep 10 at 5:24 pm
here you go, Steve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsPYJIat0lo

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 5:27 pm
And here you go, Fiskie

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/even_the_mosque-hatingest_of_mosque-haters_think_k.php?ref=fpa

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 5:27 pm
You and Oakenshitt would get on well together, Steve. Have you thought of applying for a job with him as an adviser. That way you could do your bit to make him unquestionably the most despised person the country.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 5:28 pm
BTW I forgot to give Inception special credit for that – not a cuss word in the whole thing, as far as I recall; and it definitely wasn’t marketed to kids.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 5:29 pm
some more info:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/arts/television/05empire.html?scp=2&sq=boardwalk%20empire&st=cse

will definitely be working the torrent sites for this one.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 5:29 pm
Bullshit there were no cusswords in Inception.

I distinctly heard myself saying out loud that “This is one fucking overrated cocksucking son of a bitch of a movie”.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 5:30 pm
Thanks Tillman – kind of showed my point about overuse makes it a mere boring tic.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 5:31 pm
Tillman, we have closer tastes that I expected.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 5:33 pm
will definitely be working the torrent sites for this one.

Try and use a privacy server for torrents, the pricks are cracking down on torrents.

John H.

9 Sep 10 at 5:34 pm
Isn’t there a new zombie series coming from HBO? Extras being supplied by Larvatus Prodeo.

Tillman, I hate to admit I agree with you that Inception was overrated.

Ev630

9 Sep 10 at 5:35 pm
John H, don’t worry. I just spoof Ken N’s IP address. He’s a well known pirate.

Tillman

9 Sep 10 at 5:36 pm
Overrated? With Marti doing it? Bullshit. It will a bull-terror of a show.

That era is hugely interesting as I think in a lot of ways it was the beginning of the 20th century.

Co-mingle Tammany hall, Prohibition, gangsters and slappers it will a heck of series.

In away it will also be a conclusion to all the chapters the whole gangster thing he’s done.

He’s actually going backwards after the Godfather 1 2 and 3 then the Goodfellas.

This will highlight the beginning of the entire saga.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 5:41 pm
At the end of the day, it must be hard to reconcile the fact that the Abbott led coalition failed to knock off what some say is the worse government since Whitlam, or worse..

..wot a pack of losers

rog

9 Sep 10 at 5:41 pm
oops Oh yea Inception was a movie..

I take it back, Tillman, however I blame that wussified idiot, Steve from nowhereville, for starting up the sordid crap.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 5:44 pm
Um, he didn’t do any of the Godfather movies, if that’s what u meant JC.

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 5:45 pm
“ball tearer” JC, get with the lingo pal.

So, you must be getting ready to go out for a bit of men’s crutching, eh? Not that I care too much, it’s your life

rog

9 Sep 10 at 5:46 pm
Re movies:

The other night I saw “Bitch Slap”. Very stylised and entertaining. The babes in the movie are delicious.

John H.

9 Sep 10 at 5:50 pm
Yea, you’re right. I got him mixed with Coppola. Marti did Gangs of New York, Casino and the Departed.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 5:56 pm
John, I’ve just persuaded them all to swear less, and now you bring in sexist language. Please everyone, lift your game.

[Heh]

steve from brisbane

9 Sep 10 at 6:15 pm
I think that JC has some strong arguments here, and I mean that in a positive way. As he has said, he knows and likes this bogan shit in that area he has undoubtedly proved his expertise.

rog

9 Sep 10 at 6:30 pm
JC

That you frame all your economic arguments as if the economy is always in some full employment long run equilibrium suggests you don’t know what you are talking about.

Though I’ve noticed that it rarely if ever prevents you from commenting.

sdfc

9 Sep 10 at 7:10 pm
SDFC:

I notice that since I’ve been proclaiming you don’t understand economics (you don’t) you return the comment back to me. Nice try. My comment is based on reality whereas yours is just payback

You’ve also been dishonestly putting the position of this blog and the other various sane commenters as being disagreeable to any form of stimulus, which is patently untrue.

There is no one here that has suggested such a thing. Tax cuts have been advocated here quite strongly, as well as cutting the spending.

Now let me ask you for the fourth time. Have you read the link I posted which says that since 1970 the writers are unable to find one single attempt at spending one’s way out of recession to have succeeded while tax cuts have.

You continue to remain silent on that well crafted study continuing on with your faithful belief in vulgar voodoo economics.

I’ll post it again and see if you continue to remain silent.

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/alesina/files/Large%2Bchanges%2Bin%2Bfiscal%2Bpolicy_October_2009.pdf

Oh by the way .. Nice fuck up with your knowledge of 1937/38, as I noticed Dot carved you up in small pieces and threw you out the servants door. Any more of those up your sleeve. Lol.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 7:25 pm
“We examine the evidence on episodes of large stances in fiscal policy,both in cases of fiscal stimuli and in that of fiscal adjustments in OECD countries from 1970 to 2007. Fiscal stimuli based upon tax cuts are more likely to increase growth than those based upon spending increases. As for fiscal adjustments those based upon spending cuts and no tax increases are
more likely to reduce deficits and debt over GDP ratios than those based upon tax increases. In addition, adjustments on the spending side rather than on the tax side are less likely to create recessions. We confirm these results with simple regression analysis.”

Their summarized findings are pretty important, SDFC as it also throws your 37/38 fiscal retrenchment bullshit right out the freaking window.

Here are academic economists that actually spent time researching through almost 40 years of evidence.

From now on, every time you show up here without an apology for the vulgar economic crap you’ve pested us with, I will be forced to link to this research piece and ask that you debunk it.

It’s no longer enough to go to Krug’s site, memorize his comments in talking point form and post them here like Homer does.

You need to debunk. Debunk these economists.

Go!

JC

9 Sep 10 at 7:41 pm
Tillman apparently thinks Islam really is a religion of peace.

Is there a religion of peace?

Adrien

9 Sep 10 at 7:52 pm
wow

Bird’s Dobell house is in the news
http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/09/08/the-benign-outcome-of-the-three-statesmen/#comment-32572

jtfsoon

9 Sep 10 at 8:04 pm
Wow. Birdie is sorta famous indirectly getting in the papers.

The cops obviously looked to see if the copper wires were still in the house and thereby obviously ruling Birdie himself out as the prime suspect.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 8:08 pm
The second time someone’s tried to torch Graeme’s house! Shie-za! Price of being the world’s fullest philosopher?

Adrien

9 Sep 10 at 8:09 pm
Is he renting out the house because if he is I don;t understand the logic here.

Why is he renting out the house while he himself is renting a house?

That’s a boneheaded thing to do financially.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 8:10 pm
Bird’s Dobell house is in the news

Yes, wow indeed.
I wonder if it’s anything to do with his blogging about political matters. At any rate, I’m glad they caught the alleged perpetrator.

daddy dave

9 Sep 10 at 8:11 pm
It was those fractional reserve bankers, Bird has them spooked so they paid off some peasant to do their dirty work.

John H.

9 Sep 10 at 8:21 pm
I’d just like to point out that this open forum thread has passed the 1000 comment mark. It therefore qualifies as a thread of doom. I blame Tillman and the mysterious “Pedro II”.

daddy dave

9 Sep 10 at 8:28 pm
Not guilty, Your Worship.
Those “II”s are sneaky mongrels, we Iggorants are just dumb spics.

Pedro the Ignorant

9 Sep 10 at 9:02 pm
Why is he renting out the house while he himself is renting a house?

That’s a boneheaded thing to do financially.

This may be the smartest thing Bird has ever done, JC. It’s very tax effective.

Infidel Tiger

9 Sep 10 at 9:27 pm
How infidel.

You pay rent on after tax and you pay tax on the rent less deprecation and other costs.

Where’s the benefit?

JC

9 Sep 10 at 9:39 pm
Lavatory Pronto’s Bobby Merkel has a real problem with the Oz’s advice for Labor and what it think’s of the Gangrenes.

At least the independents have forced Labor to take tax reform seriously. It was always anomalous that virtually the only policy picked out of the wide-ranging Henry tax review was the mining tax. The proposals to overhaul personal income tax, state taxes and social welfare payments deserve attention. We believe tax reform equals lower taxes, but we are not sure Labor agrees now that it has to answer to high-taxing Greens and rent-seeking regional independents. Greens leader Bob Brown has accused The Australian of trying to wreck the alliance between the Greens and Labor. We wear Senator Brown’s criticism with pride. We believe he and his Green colleagues are hypocrites; that they are bad for the nation; and that they should be destroyed at the ballot box. The Greens voted against Mr Rudd’s emissions trading scheme because they wanted a tougher regime, then used the lack of action on climate change to damage Labor at the election. Their flakey economics should have no place in the national debate. We are particularly tired of Greens senator Christine Milne arguing that “green jobs need a real green economy to grow in”. What on earth can she mean?

It’s amusing how they too cottoned to the intellectual lioness of the senate, the gifted Christine Milne.

It actually an editorial worth reading about the acoustic Australian Liars Party suggesting that Hawke and Keating’s party would never have had any truck with the gangrenes.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/needed-a-policy-for-julia-direction-for-labor/story-e6frg71x-1225916087426

JC

9 Sep 10 at 9:49 pm
It actually an editorial worth reading about the acoustic Australian Liars Party suggesting that Hawke and Keating’s party would never have had any truck with the gangrenes.

Franklin River Dam. Man is a twit, we cannot know how Hawke and Keating would behave now.

John H.

9 Sep 10 at 9:51 pm
JC

My response to your reliance on this study is the same as the previous time you brought it up. The authors acknowledge the causality issues in this study and state categorically that the regression results should be treated as correlations.

If you want to analyse the effect of the Rudd stimulus on the Australian economy for instance you would look at the national accounts. They tell us direct public spending contributed 3.1pps of 3.3% expenditure growth in the year to the end of the June quarter. This I might add excludes the impact of the cash handouts, business tax credit and first homebuyer grant the effects of which are there for all to see. That is those who have the ability to read ABS reports. I know that excludes you, but there you go.

Unless you are saying economic activity has no impact on employment you would have to conclude the stimulus has had a rather large impact on keeping a lid on unemployment.

Just how did Mark “carve me up” by the way? Selecting a monetary contraction as having led to the renewed slump in 1937/38 at the expense of the fiscal contraction is called cherry picking and is decidedly second rate.

There was no silence by the way JC I just have less time than you to comment here. You know, having a life and all.

sdfc

9 Sep 10 at 11:17 pm
“…..My response to your reliance on this study is the same as the previous time you brought it up”

Which is basically a non-response or more like a kid closing his eyes pretending it will all go away.

“…..The authors acknowledge the causality issues in this study and state categorically that the regression results should be treated as correlations.”
Freaking bullshit.

Here, I’ll repeat what they said,

……………..“We examine the evidence on episodes of large stances in fiscal policy,both in cases of fiscal stimuli and in that of fiscal adjustments in OECD countries from 1970 to 2007. Fiscal stimuli based upon tax cuts are more likely to increase growth than those based upon spending increases. As for fiscal adjustments those based upon spending cuts and no tax increases are
more likely to reduce deficits and debt over GDP ratios than those based upon tax increases. In addition, adjustments on the spending side rather than on the tax side are less likely to create recessions. We confirm these results with simple regression analysis.””

That doesn’t suggest what you claim it means. You really have a blind side in all this, don’t you?

………….”If you want to analyse the effect of the Rudd stimulus on the Australian economy for instance you would look at the national accounts. They tell us direct public spending contributed 3.1pps of 3.3% expenditure growth in the year to the end of the June quarter. This I might add excludes the impact of the cash handouts, business tax credit and first homebuyer grant the effects of which are there for all to see”

You’ve been through this before with Dot from what I recall. I can of course look up what he said, but how on earth do you simply attach your causation to the correlation while not paying any due respect to the massive exchange rate shock and the unprecedented change in monetary policy at the time, a labor market that hadn’t yet been shackled with regulation firms storing workers and not to shedding so early.

“……That is those who have the ability to read ABS reports I know that excludes you, but there you go “

Yes, I’ve gathered that you’ve purloined this off someone else pretending it’s your own.

…….”Unless you are saying economic activity has no impact on employment you would have to conclude the stimulus has had a rather large impact on keeping a lid on unemployment”.

You mean that pink batts and the dunny program held up the economy and we ignore the effect of the other three factors I mentioned above.
Exchange rate, monetary policy and largely “unreged” Labor markets. You’re kidding.

……..”Just how did Mark “carve me up” by the way? Selecting a monetary contraction as having led to the renewed slump in 1937/38 at the expense of the fiscal contraction is called cherry picking and is decidedly second rate”

Lol. Selecting a monetary contraction? And you don’t think that would have a material effect? Dot pointed out the fiscal retrenchment at the time was rather on the small side. You’re a joke, SDFC.

JC

9 Sep 10 at 11:54 pm
Disgusting corporate behavior, far too common in biomed. We need to start putting people in jail.
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.1000335

Summary
Some 1500 documents revealed in litigation provide unprecedented insights into how pharmaceutical companies promote drugs, including the use of vendors to produce ghostwritten manuscripts and place them into medical journals.
Dozens of ghostwritten reviews and commentaries published in medical journals and supplements were used to promote unproven benefits and downplay harms of menopausal hormone therapy (HT), and to cast raloxifene and other competing therapies in a negative light.
Specifically, the pharmaceutical company Wyeth used ghostwritten articles to mitigate the perceived risks of breast cancer associated with HT, to defend the unsupported cardiovascular “benefits” of HT, and to promote off-label, unproven uses of HT such as the prevention of dementia, Parkinson’s disease, vision problems, and wrinkles.
Given the growing evidence that ghostwriting has been used to promote HT and other highly promoted drugs, the medical profession must take steps to ensure that prescribers renounce participation in ghostwriting, and to ensure that unscrupulous relationships between industry and academia are avoided rather than courted.

John H.

10 Sep 10 at 12:38 am
Here we go.

JULIA Gillard’s pledge to start the rollout of the $43 billion National Broadband Network in regional Australia is in jeopardy because of an acute shortage of skilled workers to build and maintain it in the bush.

Skills shortages in regional areas have prompted warnings of a wages blowout that could drive up the costs of the NBN to taxpayers even further, with every 1 per cent rise in construction labour costs forecast to add a further $1.4bn to the total bill.

The powerful Communications Electrical and Plumbing Union yesterday warned there would be pressure for wage rises.

“The NBN Co will need to attract people to the industry and that means they will have to pay them more,” CEPU divisional president Len Cooper said.

This turkey is going to end up costing $70 billion.

JC

10 Sep 10 at 12:43 am
If you understood the difference between causality and correlation you might understand why the authors thought it pertinent to make that point. Have you read the paper?

As for the case at hand, free of the problem of lumping a large number of disparate episodes together. The cuts in interest rates did cushion the economy however the national accounts and RBA credit data tell us the fiscal expansion also had a large impact. That you are unable to understand basic economic data is your problem not mine.

Similarly the exchange rate had an impact but considering the decline in RGDI was ~2.5% at its trough only a fool would not understand the impact of a fall in income of that size on the Australian economy. Just to remind you RGDI is in $A terms. Do you know what that means? Probably not.

The labour market behaved in exactly the same manner it has in every downturn. You really don’t have a clue do you?

I didn’t say the monetary contraction had no effect because unlike you I have no need to cherry pick. The budget balance swung from -5.5% in 1936 to -2.5% in 1937 and -0.1% in 1938 that’s a fairly significant tightening in anyone’s language. It’s a bitch when others use research to back their arguments isn’t it you plodder.

Don’t let the numbers discourage you though JC, feel free to make some more stupid statements. Otherwise you’d have nothing to say.

sdfc

10 Sep 10 at 12:45 am
SDFC

Are you mentally incapacitated or simply a delusional quack? The paper I keep referring to DOES NOT agree with you sunny opinion of spending stimulus. Do you not understand that? It does NOT agree with you after studying 40 odd years of data and they come arrive at the conclusion that tax stimulus does work on the whole while spending does NOT. Is that clear or are you too far gone to even acknowledge something as apparent as that? No amount of waddling and skulking around will change that. I’ve read the paper and you have not understood what it’s saying, which doesn’t surprise me seeing that you have complemented Homer of his economic acuity.

Of course a sudden shock to demand by a sovietized method of spending stimulus will show up on the national accounts, you imperious loon. But it’s not demand, as we understand it. It’s unsustainable, brought about a large borrowing shock to the capital markets that simply takes capital away from other sectors. It’s been a toxic formula. Not only that but it also raises our debt levels for less than beneficial reasons. Note BER and the Lurch Rudd insulation fiasco. It’s also noted that the result is less than 1 by both Barro and Romer before she went stupid.

Okay so we had a fall in gross Income at the trough. We’ve also experienced falls of a similar magnitude before. Germany did for instance and they required very little stimulus. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill by suggesting this wasteful spending was the only thing that kept us out of a deeper recession. And you only give attribution to the exchange rate and monetary policy when forced to.

….”The budget balance swung from -5.5% in 1936 to -2.5% in 1937 and -0.1% in 1938 that’s a fairly significant tightening in anyone’s language. It’s a bitch when others use research to back their arguments isn’t it you plodder.”

You fucking clown. It’s around 1.8% retrenchment per year and hardly unprecedented or severe. As the study I cited before says retrenchment in spending does not appear to cause the adverse swings in activity as some people think… or in your case as some clowns think

You did not read the paper did you, you moron.

Here’s this is what they said again.

……..”In addition, adjustments on the spending side rather than on the tax side are less likely to create recessions. We confirm these results with simple regression analysis.””

Continue with the delusional vulgar economics, SDFC. As I’m enjoying you squirm reacting with your usual abuse, wit, charm, delusion and lies. LOL.

JC

10 Sep 10 at 1:15 am
Obama down to 58-41 on Rasmussen:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

Michael Fisk

10 Sep 10 at 3:59 am
Incredible. I never knew this. Apparently, George Soros was a Nazi collaborator.

http://ezralevant.com/2010/09/george-schwartz-the-jewish-naz.html

First he worked for the Judenrat. That was the Jewish council set up by the Nazis to do their dirty work for them. Instead of the Nazis rounding up Jews every day for the trains, they delegated that murderous task to Jews who were willing to do it to survive another day at the expense of their neighbours.

Theodore hatched a better plan for his son. He bribed a non-Jewish official at the agriculture ministry to let George live with him. George helped the official confiscate property from Jews.

By collaborating with the Nazis, George survived the Holocaust. He turned on other Jews to spare himself.

George moved to London after the war and then to New York, where he became a stockbroker. He’s rich now. Forbes magazine says he’s the 35th richest man in the world. Maybe you’ve heard of him. He goes by the name his father invented: George Soros.

How does Soros feel about what he did as a teenager? Has it kept him up at night?

Steve Kroft of 60 Minutes asked him that. Was it difficult? “Not at all,” Soros answered.

“No feeling of guilt?” asked Kroft. “No,” said Soros. “There was no sense that I shouldn’t be there. If I wasn’t doing it, somebody else would be taking it away anyhow. Whether I was there or not. So I had no sense of guilt.”

What a disgusting low-life Soros is. Feel free to swing a baseball bat at this unrepentant Nazi-collaborating f*cker’s face if you ever cross his path.

Michael Fisk

10 Sep 10 at 4:26 am
Kelsey Grammar launches right wing network

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/frasier-star-face-of-rightwing-network-20100909-151m8.html?autostart=1

jtfsoon

10 Sep 10 at 9:17 am
Your conscience may force you to read the SMH, but deep down you want to listen to a right wing shock jock who fantasises about lowering taxes, brutalising criminals and whould rule you like a King!

.

10 Sep 10 at 9:23 am
I’d say Robert Fisk has redeemed himself for his past journalistic idiocies

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-crimewave-that-shames-the-world-2072201.html

jtfsoon

10 Sep 10 at 9:37 am
The SMH would never refer to the ABC, CNN, MSNBC etc etc as “left wing networks.” This is an old trick. You see it often on Lateline, for example. ‘Tonight we’re joined by Fred Nerk, conservative columnist for the Times of London and George Monbiot, ~~far left-wing~~ who writes for the Guardian.

Saw that the other day, Fisk, and I was tempted to run it here on the Open – Soros being one of the most despicable grubs in the world. But he was 14 at the time, his father had lined him up with a job so he wouldn’t be gassed and he went ahead and did the awful job. It’s asking a lot to expect that he should have defied the Nazi authorities.

Interesting, though, that Benedict XVI is lambasted as the Nazi pope (by Richard Dawkins, for example) or has his compulsory service in the German army as a boy referred to in a wink-wink way – while nobody ever says that the biggest financial backer of left-wing causes, the Democrats and Obama is a former Nazi repo man.

C.L.

10 Sep 10 at 9:54 am
It therefore qualifies as a thread of doom. I blame Tillman and the mysterious “Pedro II”.

Not even close.

I tried to get a vigorous discussion of pyramids and panspermia going but it was nipped in the bud.

I blame Sinclair.

Tillman

10 Sep 10 at 9:55 am
He’s still a truther Jason.

Yobbo

10 Sep 10 at 9:56 am
“The SMH would never refer to the ABC, CNN, MSNBC etc etc as “left wing networks.””

Maybe not but but since they are calling it “RightNetwork” I think that in this case its probably a fair description.

Steve Edney

10 Sep 10 at 10:13 am
I tried to get a vigorous discussion of pyramids and panspermia going but it was nipped in the bud.

I blame Sinclair.

Just don’t dare deny the Keynsian multiplier it will be you banned instantly.

Steve Edney

10 Sep 10 at 10:15 am
I don’t know what harm the SMH has done here. The whole newsworthiness of the story is the fact that it’s a network that markets itself to right wingers and even calls itself RightNetwork. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been much of a story at all. As it is, people who identify as right wingers now get to know there is a network that caters specifically for them where the actor who launched it even publicises the fact and they get to know that Kelsey Grammar is one of them. Would you rather the SMH didn’t report the story?

jtfsoon

10 Sep 10 at 10:15 am
I didn’t say SMH had done any “harm.”

?

I was just pointing to the amusing journalistic convention of identifying ‘conservatives’ and ‘right wing’ commentators – something not done with even notoriously left-wing commentators.

It appears there is some truth in advertising here, though, as it’s being called ‘RighNetwork.’ MSNBC should adopt its widely used nickname, the ObamaNetwork.

C.L.

10 Sep 10 at 10:44 am
CL

Re Soros.

I think the point is not whether as a youth Soros resisted the Nazis or not. A means and method of resistance is not the issue.

The question that really raises eyebrows is his reaction to being a part of the extermination meachine:

‘There was no sense that I shouldn’t be there.

‘If I wasn’t doing it, somebody else would be taking it away anyhow. Whether I was there or not. So I had no sense of guilt.’

No remorse, no human empathy – none ?

Anyone else seen ‘The Pianist’ – the part where the lead character is dragged out of the next consignment from the ghetto to the camps by the head cappo, in order to give his talent a chance to survive – knowing the fate awaiting everyone else ? No survivor guilt in this situation ?

Soros is one smart, lucky cookie. He has been short-changed in the humanity dept though.

Myrddin Seren

10 Sep 10 at 10:50 am
Andrew Bolt has a headline list concerning the surreal reactions to the Koran-torching stunt of a little groups of American yokels:

PASTOR: KORAN WILL BURN…

‘Meant to Be a Warning’…

AP WON’T DISTRIBUTE IMAGES, AUDIO…

FOX NEWS WON’T COVER, EITHER..

Church website shut down…

FBI PAYS PASTOR A VISIT…

Obama says call it off…

Then sends ‘best wishes’ to Muslims worldwide…

Vatican: ‘Outrageous’…

NYPD: ‘Dangerous’…

Holder: ‘Idiotic’…

Clinton: ‘Disgraceful’…

Palin: ‘Unnecessary provocation’…

FBI: Retaliation ‘Likely’…

INTERPOL issues global alert…

Kind of proves the point, I guess. But we already knew how easy it was to prove that case – which is why it’s such a dubious exercise.

Also at that link, major credit to Angela Merkel for giving an award to Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard.

The organizers of the M100 Media Award in Potsdam near Berlin honored Mr. Westergaard for his defense of press freedom in the face of threats of death and violence. The Chancellor agreed…

“It is irrelevant whether we find his caricatures tasteless or not, whether we think they are necessary or helpful, or not,” the Chancellor said. “Is he allowed to do that? Yes, he is.”

C.L.

10 Sep 10 at 10:52 am
Myrddin, Soros also compared Bush to Hitler in a book – which was, to say the least, imprudent given his own unfortunate background.

C.L.

10 Sep 10 at 10:57 am
Wannabe Koran-torching pastor calls it off.

New York imam says: ‘Great news. But no – I’m not calling off the Mohammed Atta Memorial Mosque.’

C.L.

10 Sep 10 at 11:10 am
Uncle Georg was a very generous commission payer on wall street. That why he was called uncle George.

JC

10 Sep 10 at 11:17 am
Doesn’t matter what he paid, he’s a despicable scum bag of a man.

Infidel Tiger

10 Sep 10 at 11:39 am
Dude;

Scum bag? Not paying those sorts of commissions he wasn’t. He loved the street and we loved him back.

JC

10 Sep 10 at 11:44 am
Escobar rewarded his men well too. So do a lot of slimy pricks.

Infidel Tiger

10 Sep 10 at 11:48 am
Dude:

He spread that money around (commission) like a rich old uncle with his adoring nieces and nephews.

Every time his execution desk phoned in a buy or sell currency order we knew there was upwards of 100G just lying around to be picked up.

We loved him him back and no amount of you saying otherwise will change the fact that uncle george was very generous.

JC

10 Sep 10 at 11:53 am
Jeez

My homeritis is really bad today.

JC

10 Sep 10 at 11:54 am
They should let them build that mosque, and then build a 100 foot tall fucking billboard of the goatse.cx man sucking a pig’s cock right next to it.

Yobbo

10 Sep 10 at 12:06 pm
Yobbs

Have you ever thought of a career in the diplomatic service? They could use a person like you. Seriously.

JC

10 Sep 10 at 12:10 pm
SOON

What is your opinion of this X-prize style PPP or private non profit/for profit entrpreneurship?

http://www.nature.com/openinnovation?moreChallenges=true

.

10 Sep 10 at 12:16 pm
Journalists moonlighting on Facebook/Twitter:

… another one bites the dust.

C.L.

10 Sep 10 at 12:44 pm
Strike a light! Eastwood turned down Bond and Superman!

http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/movies/clint-eastwood-i-turned-down-superman-20100910-153m9.html

Good move.

Infidel Tiger

10 Sep 10 at 12:50 pm
There was an amazing Conversation hour on Jon Faine’s program today; one of the guests was Austin Williams, the pro-development architect from the UK. I just sat there listening at my desk as he stuck both boots into sustainable development, environmentalism, and other contemporary shibboleths.

He’s with the following group:

http://www.futurecities.org.uk/

dover_beach

10 Sep 10 at 1:08 pm
Clint as Superman: ‘Great Scott, punk.’

C.L.

10 Sep 10 at 1:11 pm
Superman is too wholesome for Clint. He would psychologically make a great Batman though.

jtfsoon

10 Sep 10 at 1:13 pm
Good call Jason.

.

10 Sep 10 at 1:16 pm
Yobboo

Thank you for that sensitive and thoughtful suggestion on this important matter. Definitely food for thought; something to chew on.

Peter Patton

10 Sep 10 at 1:41 pm
“Michael Burry, the former hedge-fund manager who predicted the housing market’s plunge, said he is investing in farmable land, small technology companies and gold as he hunts original ideas and braces for a weaker dollar.

“I believe that agriculture land — productive agricultural land with water on site — will be very valuable in the future,” Burry, 39, said in a Bloomberg Television interview scheduled for broadcast this morning in New York. “I’ve put a good amount of money into that.” ” http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-07/michael-burry-predictor-of-mortgage-collapse-bets-on-farmland-and-gold.html

This is essentially a prediction of food shortages. I expect Burry is now on the path to supporting the EMH.

pedro

10 Sep 10 at 1:53 pm
No he’s actually not predicting food shortages. He and others like him are pretty much forecasting food consumption of better foods and more of it containing more protein and junk like that in third 3rd world diets as the move up the income scale.

It’s a decent story.

JC

10 Sep 10 at 2:03 pm
Instead of opening a muslim friendly gay bar next door to the mosque, they should open a butcher that deals exclusively with pig-based products… and constantly cooks up free sample to offer on the sidewalk – pumping out the smell of pork in their general direction.

Fleeced

10 Sep 10 at 2:03 pm
Maybe some Christian nutjobs should fly a plane into it. Then in a decade build a Christian outreach centre on it. Makes sense.

Infidel Tiger

10 Sep 10 at 2:07 pm
Somebody on Wall Street should ask “Uncle George” to give back some of the property he helped loot from Jews as they were whisked away to their deaths.

Michael Fisk

10 Sep 10 at 2:20 pm
“I believe that agriculture land — productive agricultural land with water on site — will be very valuable in the future.”

Thanks for the heads-up, Gekko.

C.L.

10 Sep 10 at 2:24 pm
I’m with CL on this one. Has there ever been a time when productive agricultural land with water on-site has ever been not valuable? Talk about stating the bleeding obvious.

dover_beach

10 Sep 10 at 2:32 pm
This stinks.

C.L.

10 Sep 10 at 2:32 pm
?Doesn’t matter what he paid, he’s a despicable scum bag of a man.

Get real, he worked with the Nazis as a teenager. So bloody what? American companies were happily trading with German companies, even providing the raw materials for the gas used in the concentration camps, so why no moral uproar about that?

War does strange things to people. If you dare, and I mean that seriously because the book is shocking, go read, “Human Behavior in the Concentration Camp” by Ed Cohen. You might then begin to realise that many people are quite prepared to sell their soul to save their life.

John H.

10 Sep 10 at 2:36 pm
I couldn’t give a fuck about his Nazi childhood. He’s a scumbag because of his actions as an adult.

Infidel Tiger

10 Sep 10 at 2:40 pm
This stinks.

Grounds for a no-confidence motion? I won’t hold my breathe.

dover_beach

10 Sep 10 at 2:40 pm
Strike a light! Eastwood turned down Bond and Superman!

Of course he did. He’s not going to lower himself to playing those pansies.

Adrien

10 Sep 10 at 2:45 pm
Superman is too wholesome for Clint. He would psychologically make a great Batman though.

Nah.

They’ve done a zillion movies all of ‘em shite. They need Garth Ennis to write the script.

Eastwood would be ideal. Or Stallone. Stallone’s too much of a bonehead tho’.

Adrien

10 Sep 10 at 2:52 pm
No, John H, he volunteered to work for the Nazis and was employed to steal property from Jews who were about to be killed (he was a traitor, in other words), and later said in an interview that he had no regrets about it! Add that to the fact that he destroyed the lives of millions of Brits and Thais, the man is a scumbag with no conscience.

Michael Fisk

10 Sep 10 at 2:53 pm
But of course Ratzinger was much worse!!

Michael Fisk

10 Sep 10 at 2:53 pm
Looks like the Koran-B-Q is back on again.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/7959432/pastor-may-burn-korans-after-all

Michael Fisk

10 Sep 10 at 2:54 pm
Uh oh!

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100909/ARTICLES/100909743/1412?Title=Westboro-Baptish-Church-to-burn-Qurans-if-Dove-doesn-t

Michael Fisk

10 Sep 10 at 4:00 pm
Cl, DB

Farming has been a rotten business for the past 30 years returning perhaps 2 to 3 %. The dudes argument is that return is going to rise which would of course be reflected in land prices.

It’s the same thing as what happened in mining.

Jc..

10 Sep 10 at 4:31 pm
“We examine the evidence on episodes of large stances in fiscal policy,both in cases of fiscal stimuli and in that of fiscal adjustments in OECD countries from 1970 to 2007. Fiscal stimuli based upon tax cuts are more likely to increase growth than those based upon spending increases. As for fiscal adjustments those based upon spending cuts and no tax increases are…….”

JC. You do realise that when they are making these claims, they are really only talking about the metric GDP right? And since GDP growth isn’t growth per se, then we ought not pretend that they have valid statistical evidence for their conclusions.

Abdullah Bul Bul Ameer

10 Sep 10 at 4:40 pm
If your comrades include the Westboro Church, you know you’re on the wrong side of the argument.

THR

10 Sep 10 at 4:42 pm
Here’s an idea. The Coalition has the right to introduce legislation into Parliament and that Legislation will pass the House if sufficient indies vote with the Coalition. So maybe they should start introducing legislation that one or more indies would love but labor would hate. For example, they could introduce a new law that allows asylum seekers immediate residency in Australia, as along as they become non-unionised construction workers opn the NB project.

Bandt would have to support the move because it would be giving asylum. Wilkie and the other indies would also have to support it too, because they say they are caring and sharing types. result ALP defeat on the floor of the House. If this happens too many times, the indies will eventually have to admit that they have no confidence in Gillrudd and her stupid party.

Rococo Liberal

10 Sep 10 at 4:53 pm
db

Has there ever been a time when productive agricultural land with water on-site has ever been not valuable? Talk about stating the bleeding obvious.

Reminds me of advice my grandfather gave me as a wee lad. “Buy land, dear boy, they ain’t makin’ any more of it”!

Peter Patton

10 Sep 10 at 5:06 pm
That’s a good rule of thumb, FDB.

.

10 Sep 10 at 5:07 pm
“NSW police leaders have struggled to understand why the Middle Eastern – specifically Lebanese – community has bred such an intransigent criminal milieu. One theory is that it was spawned by Lebanon’s civil war, which forced many families to seek refuge in Australia, bringing with them a baggage of violence. Another factor is high unemployment and socio-economic deprivation conducive to crime.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/seeds-of-killing-were-sown-in-the-middle-east/story-e6frg6zo-1225916784338

FFS – still doing the PC dance – umm – PCs ?

Question – how many well educated, middle class Lebanese migrants, such as NSW Governor Marie Bashir’s family, who have come here for generations now and been exemplary citizens – are involved in violent organised crime ?

And how many have come from rural, clannish Lebanese communities, cloistered for centuries in a regularly invaded part of the world, and who probably survived the last two thousand years out of rat cunning and a quick trigger finger ?

Ask anyone from Beirut – the war drove the clans out of the hills and Malcolm Fraser welcomed them with open arms ( see recent cabinet paper releases ). They never wanted to leave the Bekaa Valley in the first place and they will never assimilate as a result.

Even the Wiki thinks so:

“The valley also produces hashish and cultivates opium poppies, which are exported as part of the illegal drug trade.

Due to wars, poverty, unstable economic and political conditions Lebanon faced in the past, and some failures within the agricultural sector, many previous inhabitants of the valley left for the coastal cities of Lebanon or emigrated from the country altogether.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beqaa_Valley

Yup – I am cutting out the bits that support my rant !

Myrddin Seren

10 Sep 10 at 5:12 pm
JC, the trajectory of human development is mapped in the reduction in food prices.

The demand for food is driven by an increasing population, which we’ve got for a few decades, and increasing numbers rising out of poverty, which will go on a bit longer. The amount of land available for higher productivity is the fundamental issue. Farm land prices aren’t being driven by organic food fetishists so there is not yet a fundamental constraint on productivity.

It could also be a bet on peak phosphorus.

My prediction is that technolgy and development will win.

pedro

10 Sep 10 at 5:20 pm
“As for the case at hand, free of the problem of lumping a large number of disparate episodes together.”

Gibberish.

“Similarly the exchange rate had an impact but considering the decline in RGDI was ~2.5% at its trough only a fool would not understand the impact of a fall in income of that size on the Australian economy.”

It is fuck all, historically.

“Just to remind you RGDI is in $A terms. Do you know what that means? Probably not.”

Please explain.

.

10 Sep 10 at 5:34 pm
Myrddin – spot on.

Ev630

10 Sep 10 at 5:52 pm
In the long I’m sure technology will win. Short term 10 15 years I’m not so sure.

Farming returns of 2 to 3% are unsustainably low. I just think that return will go higher and will carry land prices a lot higher too.

JC

10 Sep 10 at 6:23 pm
a new law that allows asylum seekers immediate residency in Australia, as along as they become non-unionised construction workers opn the NB project

My Lord. Talk about mixed metaphors.

Why don’t you also require them to do two years of national service, followed by a gay marriage?

Tillman

10 Sep 10 at 6:51 pm
Bird’s latest codeword for Jews: “Wandering Cosmopolitan Sellouts”

http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/wandering-cosmopolitan-sellouts-backing-keynes-in-error/#respond

Tillman

10 Sep 10 at 6:52 pm
Here’s the thing JC. Water has become scarce, input costs have gone up from external pressures and subsidies keep sub marginal producers in the game and farmers have recently copped stuff like the NVA. On top of that, we didn’t really know how to farm in Australia sustainably until recently.

Land is already expensive but cash yields are low.

There’s been a lot of bank forced sales in southern NSW lately BTW, which may have been ahstened by good rain but which were always going to happen.

.

10 Sep 10 at 9:17 pm
Some comical titles from Bird:

“Why Are Firms So Large On Average? (Schumpeter And Coase Mostly Wrong).”

“How To Make A Lot Of Money On The Stock-Market Right Now. – (More Later).”

.

10 Sep 10 at 9:21 pm
“Judith Sloan has picked out a few Bob Katter requests for indignation.

Fixing the dollar and forcing a depreciation (is he kidding? what, improverish us all?)

ACTUALLY ITS A VERY GOOD IDEA. ITS THE CURRENT POLICY THAT IS IMPOVERISHING US. ”

I knew it. Bird is pro inflation. He’s against “inflation” caused by bank leverage (it doesn’t exist Graeme) but he’s for a printing of money to end leverage and drive down the dollar – and ruin our economy with inflation. While at the same time spruiking “growth deflation”.

Graeme of course professes to be an upstanding libertarian with a qualification in economics in the Mises spearheaded Austrian tradition.

Um okay…

.

10 Sep 10 at 9:25 pm
Tim Lambert (UNSW) has another thread on Monckton which makes it 81 I believe.

No obsession there people, look away.

JC

11 Sep 10 at 12:34 am
Bird’s next thread:

Mein Kampf for the Wandering Cosmopolitan Sellouts: Metal Force in Every Basement

Tillman

11 Sep 10 at 12:38 am
Tony Windsor is a fucking moron in the true sense of the word. Period.

There is nothing left to discuss. He really is a total moron.

TWO of independent NSW MP Tony Windsor’s broadband “experts” were an unemployed phone technician and a small country town councillor.

Mr Windsor confirmed last night that Alun Davies, a Telstra technician from Armidale who lost his job about 18 months ago, and David Jones, a councillor on the Inverell Shire Council, were two of the advisers who had persuaded him a National Broadband Network was essential.

These were two of the advisers Mr Windsor quoted when he said on Tuesday that for him, the critical issue in making Ms Gillard Prime Minister rather than Tony Abbott was the NBN.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/windsors-broadband-experts-a-motley-crew-nbn/story-fn59niix-1225917701411

JC

11 Sep 10 at 12:39 am
Let me repeat. Tony Windsor is a total moron.

JC

11 Sep 10 at 12:44 am
It gets worse, JC – his chief economics advisor is a failed former LDP candidate who lives on the south coast and works at the local Woolies stocking shelves and runs a blog in his spare time.

Tillman

11 Sep 10 at 12:57 am

Catallaxy Files

Open Forum September 4, 2010

1,116 Responses to 'Open Forum September 4, 2010'

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