In The Australian today:
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Tough – we’ll always have “la dolce vita”
Great piece, Henry – really enjoyed reading. Inflexible labour market regulation is at the core of the economic problems of many European countries.
And now Angela Merkel – who has turned out to be one of the most egregious populist ever – is contemplating introducing a national minimum wage in Germany – where this is none. Good one, AM????
Apply ritualitic slogan – labour market inflexibility – to every issue.
Given that Australia would be akin to a Southern Italy with a deregulated labout market without mineral exports we await a real theory about what creates a prosperous economy.
Apply ritualitic slogan – labour market inflexibility – to every issue.
Bartles – that’s the money line, FFS get teh spelling right!
I’m sure this is a bot. Minimum wage laws are keeping us wealthy, free from corruption, organised crime and keeps government debt down? With really bad spellling?
Forza Italia
Brilliant article. Conclusion: short Europe.
“Inflexible labour market regulation is at the core of the economic problems”
No it isn’t. The core of the problems are debt, government waste and handouts including overgenerous pensions etc. It might be part of the way to get out of the mess though.
Where? In Germany, Fennoscandia, and Benelex?
Debt is a problem everywhere it is German banks who are also insolvent due to bad loans. Poor government the Euro itself are problems otherwise this would not have happened.
Yes Kelly. But aggregate demand has fallen, prices can adjust, except for labour.
You can have a free labour market, or you can inflate to sort this out.
Inflating will cause problems down the line, like creating another credit cycle.
Yes I said may be part of the way to get out of the problems but the main message is. Get into debt or make bad loans pain will follow there is no magic to get out.
Lending money to people with no capacity to pay it back cannot be blamed on “inflexibility”; of the labour market or of any other kind.
It is straightforwardly a failure of the financial market.
Anyone wishing to argue otherwise needs to actually make an argument, because the prima facie case is against them.
Err…I’m talking about a downturn after a financial crisis.
Yes, Greece has no responsibility whatsoever in lying about their finances..lol. It’s an adverse selection problem, and it is mainly between Governments.
The grubment ‘borrowed’ the money on the ‘citizens’ behalf.
No one is going to vote out a grubment who keeps the trough full and “hang teh expense”.
How many votes would a political party get if they advocated slashing and burning the unsustainable welfare state, even if that course of action would keep the country solvent – albeit with a lot of ‘less than gruntled’ ol’ peons?
Rabz
You have pointed out the main problem with democracies.
In the space cadet vacuum betwixt FDB and Obummer’s ears its the debtors who should have the protection of the Law.
How’s about the EU fostering the idea that member government debt was backed by the EU such that the interest on 10 yr bonds for both Greece and Germany were near identical for the last decade despite the fact that immediately before Greece went into the eurozone She paid X3 fold the interest for Her national bonds than did Germany?
You clown
James
No
Both sides are to blame. So how exactly do you think the stupid banks that lent the money are going to recover the money? You did just point out how stupid they were cutting the rate by two thirds.
Yes, and it’s not something I’m happy about having to do…
Oh Dotty, you’re deliberately missing the point. When I do it it’s cute, but it doesn’t look good on you frankly.
The financial market has two ends.
Firstly there are the lenders, whose responsibility it is to choose good borrowers. That is to say, ones with the capacity to pay their debts over a specified timeframe. To do well out of the business of lending, they should skew their lending to borrowers who look likely to do especially profitable things with the money lent. If they do their business well, there will be the handy side-effect of reasonably predictable currency markets, and global financial flows will at least approach optimal efficiency.
Then there are the borrowers, who want some money to spend on things. If someone responds to their plea for money offering by it to them, on these or those terms and conditions, why the fuck would they refuse? They have a lot to gain from getting money in their hands, and if everything goes arse over tit then they can simply walk away.
[Maybe a couple of Patsies spend a few years in the slammer, but they'll not be the real villains, and you can take that to the bank, as it were.]
Now you can argue, if you wish, that borrowers ought not to look after their own interests by maximising their short-term financial gain. This is a moral argument, and one which in this case is worth consideration.
On the other hand, to argue that lenders oughtn’t do a proper and profound analysis of the prospects of their debtors is to argue for bad business. It is to say that people should be able to do stupid things with money, willy-nilly, lending it to demonstrated incompetents like the Greek government. This is a business argument, not a moral one. As such it makes no sense.
James, you are a very unpleasant man. If you continue to demonstrate an incapacity to separate me from your own imagination, I’m just going to ignore you unless I see some sport in baiting you.
It’s your call.
James
“EU fostering the idea”
On this point you are now starting to sound like a potential unhappy Labor voter. The current government is fostering the idea that we will be much richer with the carbon tax. So good luck chasing up Julia in the future if your vote counts and they win again and we are poorer. Just a hint infering something does not make it real and if you choose to do a transaction based on some stupid statement not the contract you only have yourself to blame.
FDB
I’d say limited liability causes adverse outcomes. By allowing workers at a company to essentially walk away if they screw up tilts the balance in their favour.
It would be hard to police but taking the workers for all their belongings is a better option than the current: call the big boys to the white house and present them with a tax payer backed blank cheque.
given nobody can really explain how complex financial instruments work, this kind of behaviour, I belive, is legislated for by the Government/Big Business partnerships which screw us over.
To paraphrase Brouges:
You, you missed the point, you missed the fucking point mate!
As for the loans, it is an adverse selection problem between governments. Ireland wouldn’t have happened if there wasn’t crony capitalism and they weren’t part of this not optimal optimal currency zone.
It’s a fucking stupid argument. Do you understand how asset liability management works?
That’s a big fuckin’ problem when the applicants LIE THEIR ARSES OFF
Really dude, don’t ever let me catch you trying to lecture me on economics again.
Kelly u are no better than the dunce personified, FDB.
I’m not an apologist for Greece’s creditors but what FDB fololishly asserted was that the onus on proof is with the creditor and not the debtor with his ‘prima faciae’ distasteful hogwash
That is insane.
Secondly the creditors were lead to believe that Greek and Italian debt was guaranteed by the EU.
So before the eurozone both Italy and Greece were charged far more in interest than Germany for their bonds.
Now with the myth of gaurantee thoroughly dispelled they have resorted to charging higher rates for higher risk.
That wasn’t the creditor’s fault and they are now gaurnteed to lose at least 50%.
What you and the perennially offensively stupid FDB are suggesting is that the lose 99% of what the loaned.
That morally bankrupt.
Which is another characteristic of FDB’s ever tiresome ‘thinking’.
FDB:
Ahem!
Of course it is the creditors fault (as well as the debtors). No contract saying that, then it does not exist. History will tell you that even governments can’t be trusted without a solid contract and even then you have to consider the actual risk of the country. If I was going to lend billions of dollars I would research these things not just go on the publicity.
If either Mark or James would care to honestly address what I’ve said, then we might have a conversation.
Perhaps James should also stop drinking.
Sean seems to think I hold positions I don’t, about how the situation ought to be remedied. To clarify, I think the remedy should be just as painful for the dishonest borrowers as it is for the foolish lenders. The principles of honesty and diligence should be symmetrical at both ends for a loan to work well for all concerned.
Rabz, your contribution didn’t even come close to addressing anything I’d said.
I realise you feel left out, but even James did better.
Having the word ‘honest’ used by the mendacious slime merchant FDB is laughable.
If the method of collection of the debts is being bailed out by others then yes they should lose 99% that is what capitalism is. It also follows that Greece for example should not be bailed out just cut the funding off. This first stage has not even happened they are still running up more debt. “Budget draft sees deficit of 5.4 pct/GDP if debt swap goes through” http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/18/greece-budget-idUSL5E7MI1ZG20111118
It’s straightforwardly a failure of the politicians to keep borrowing on the electors’ behalf.
The markets are told what to do by the (ex) pollies, who control the IMF, etc.
You are a faux naive smartass.
OK James, as an alcoholic myself, I can honestly say that you should stop drinking now and go to bed.
You’re not even trying to address what I’ve said, so this isn’t a conversation.
It’s you lashing out, and me calmly swatting you away.
When you wake up and read it over tomorrow, you will be disgusted with yourself.
Where did I say otherwise? Death to bailouts!
Let’s enjoy an FDB replay
And now Dunce2:
D’ya mean the ‘others’ who kinda guaranteed the debt they didn’t guarantee, kelly?
Dot – it’s tricky enough having a conversation with five different people, each of whom is to varying degrees actually paying attention, but that comment of mine was clearly addressed to Sean.
Bailouts should be something to unite us all in disgust, across ideological lines. They make no sense at all, unless there’s been an alien invasion or similar.
Oh dear. Now James doesn’t even understand himself. What an odd person.
F8ck this – allow me to elaborate, oh weirded one.
Well, duuuuhhhh…
OK. For the last friggin’ time – It aint a market failure – because it aint a free market in the first place you smug, marxist twat.
If it was, the tap to the trough would’ve been turned off decades ago.
Strange how you addressed me twice as “missing the point”.
Others means taxpayers in countries like Germany who will in the end probably pay for their banks (if Wall St is a guide to go by and the bankers bonuses) and Greece to stay afloat. So is this the sort of guarantee you were talking about “were lead to believe” “fostering the idea”? As I said if you are about to give a few billion dollars away better to actually get a reasonable guarantee and research the debtor which clearly did not happen.
The smug, arrogantly ignorant tosser FDB grandiosely asserts that the moral onus is on the lender and declares that fact is so screamingly obvious that he demands that any who deign to disagree with his insanity provide an argument.
A devastating critique of his noxious stupidity is provided so he goes into predictable desperate leftist mode and accuses his critics of insanity and stupidity rat5her than answer.
Answer the argument arrshole
Some bailouts are ok so long as they are based on capitalist principles not rent seeking. In other words bailing out the business but not the investors.
Dot, read this:
That first word – that name – whose is it?
Rabz, I like a feisty stoush as much as (frankly much more than) the next guy, but there is absolutely no way you could justify labelling be a Marxist. I’m not even much of a leftist. Disagreeing with you does not make me your opposite, and for that matter I’m not even sure we disagree on anything related to this thread.
You’re just being a total douchebag.
BLEEP!
I’m for betting you can’t even see the irony in this.
Have I accused anyone of insanity?
Of stupidity?
What is the question you want me to answer?
Having known ‘FDB’ for many years, I must protest. He is none of these things. Yes, he might be a stoushing luvvie, but oddly humble for blogs. Probably in AA/NA.
Do not get introspective, Rabz, don’t do it …
The EU constitution does not guarantee individal member countries’ debt kelly but the rhetoric by ots leaders has since its inception and up until a few weeks ago.
There is no doubt that the German eople are being milked but debt aqnd guarantees by your government is sovereign.
Culpability normally goes to the debtor and that debtors assets can be liquidated but obviously not with a government debt which is backed only by reputation.
EU leaders have known and encouraged markets to chage the same rates for German, Irish, Greek and Italian bonds.
The moral culpability is with Greece mainly also because it lied massively about its debt and its deficits and those figures were supposed to be ausited by the EU so a debt of 70% of GDP became 120% and a deficit of 6% cecame 15% in short order.
Its simply quite unfaie to say the debtors who were duped and lied to should lose absolutely ewverything.
FDB is a typical amoral leftist.
Don’t side with him even if u have lefty liberal views. Lefty liberals aren’t deceitful scumbag leftists.
No they are fucking not.
Bad investments/failing businesses must be liquidated. They are the problem. They use up valuable resources.
James
FDB does not assert anything about moral onus just as i have a asserted that if you want to go and lend money without finding out if you will be paid back you are stupid. Would you lend say $1000 to someone down the pub because he said he will be here tomorrow to pay it back and the bloke next to him says you can trust people in this pub? That is the basic equivalent of why you feel sorry for European banks.
And James, I’m going to be real nice and charitable one last time for you. After this, if you fuck up again, you’re in the Bird-bin where I only engage to make fun of you or use you to make fun of others.
I made it very explicit that the MORAL burden is on the borrower (i.e. to be honest), while the BUSINESS burden is on the lender (i.e. to be diligent/prudent).
If you had simply read what I wrote in the first place, you wouldn’t be in this wierd drunken spiral into incoherence.
Damn my dyslexia!
its,people, and, charge, audited, became etc
FDB,
If you are defrauded, it can ruin you (i.e Clive Peters) but you are entitled to recover costs, if it is at all possible.
Dot what about Barings bank. So it is a bad thing that was bought for one pound?
“AA/NA”
Huh?
I’m out and proud!
I am glad to hear it. Humility can go too far.
FDB you are a farce of ahuman being.
You are a liar.
It’s not difficult.
When I called you out on your drivel you made no differentiation.
And just by the way that’s a false differentiation on moral grounds as well as a belated one, you fuvkwit.
Yes.
If they didn’t have systems into control rogue trades, why would you want to set them up for failure again?
But the effect was it was privately recapitalised (“subsidised”) and the investors took a hit…which is what you want, right?
This seems topical now I mentioned it
http://www.smartcompany.com.au/entrepreneur-watch/20100520-five-lesson-from-the-clive-peeters-collapse.html
OK – it’s one of the most almighty f*ck ups of all time.
Why exactly wasn’t the tap to the trough turned off yonks ago?
Reason – voter rage and imperfect markets.
So how long will this charade persist?
“Oh yes, we’ll pay it off, just give us another gazillion drachma,
ShylockWong”!Anyhoo, to address the real topic of this post I can’t do better than direct you all to Fyodor’s offering at Troppo.
Sure, he’s arguing for free ponies, but they’re very nice ones IMNPHO.
Okay James, that’s torn it.
You are now merely a figure of fun.
You actually have to be a pretty crap person to sit in the Bird-bin, too. I originally created it after he threatened to rape my mother.
Fine company, eh?
Rabz
When I started reading your comment made me think of our government only the last line alerted me that the comment was about Greece
Really kelly, grow up and re-read my post at 9:53.
The practicalities of this are that the creditors will lose a huge amount of their money or even all. The banks’ investors lose which are usually largely pension funds.
When nummbnut leftist FDB asserts “the prima facie case is against” the debtors that is a immmoral and legalistically fallacious.
But its’s a typical leftist one.
Coming from a lying inanity like you FDB, I’m crushed.
And don’t the 12 step programs endeavour to encourage honesty in their members?
It should be noted that my “prima facie case” comment referred to the idea that this was all about labour markets.
Of course, anyone actually reading each other’s comments would know this.
You’ve gone too far my latte loving commie chum. James is argumentative. Bird actually makes threats. James will never ring up your home and demand to your wife that he speak to you (JC).
Oh bleep, another insult fest.
Apologies FDB – it wasn’t meant to degenerate to this.
JK is going to get a very stern talking to, very shortly.
In the meantime, up twinkles!
Holy Fuck. Did Graeme actually do that?
What step encourages honesty FDB?
I have no problem if the banks investors lose the lot but if they don’t I do have a problem. There is actually an incentive to do stupid things. The practicalities are that if what happened in the US happens in Europe then they will only take a hair cut and in some cases no loss at all.
Yep, had to literally dig up the noun ‘drachma’ from six feet under…
FFS, politicians are scum. They will answer for what they’ve plunged us into and it won’t be pretty.
Hangin’ upside down from the nearest telegraph pole, andy l?
Well, that’s immoral kelly.
The lenders lent under false pretences from Greece and the EU.
But even if that weren’t true what you assert would still be immoral.
But clarity is good.
Thanx for your honesty on that at least.
It makes a refreshing difference after witnessing FDB’s squirming, dissembling and outright lies.
James, I again invite you to read my comments.
They’re not fine literature (indeed many would say they are of no interest at all) but if you wish to respond to them then reading them is a solid first step.
I offer this advice for free. Just imagine what a full FDB service could add to your intellect!
“FDB’s squirming, dissembling and outright lies”
No example offered.
SA 3/100. WTF, we were 4 for last I heard. What’s going on Rabz?
SDFC
3-101 apparently
Actually “No example offered.” is an example but literally every single comment of yours since I first challenged your insane post at 19 Nov 11 at 8:19 pm, FDB.
James
How on earth is that immoral? If the bank is no longer solvent which i am guessing is in a few cases then why should the investor walk away with money. You do notice that in Europe they have stopped talking about stress tests which indicates to me there is no way to do that to calm the markets meaning some banks are technically broke.
FDB
I quite often agree with James but tonight he has lost the plot.
sfdc – it’s a simple case of middle-order collapse.
I think our heads are so far up our arses that we’ve forgotten how to preserve a wicket in a test match. Hard to believe, and to stomach, but there you go.
It’s like we want to play T20 for five days.
I have no desire to be fuckwit FDB iespecially of the lying kind.
However I’ve re-read your drivel.
Unjsurprisingly, it remains dishonest immoral lying drivel.
What did Kawaja get? The young fella seems to be bowling well.
No Foxtel so I’ve only got the radio.
FDB – Seth Efrica are batting.
We had our collapse last night.
Stress tests are bullshit.
“Technically broke” banks are fine as long as there isn’t a bank run, then they can survive on margins.
Greece has had years (this crisis has been going on for a while) to sell off land etc. They could have paid off their debt but simply don’t want to.
They’re a miserly old widow with a beachfront property who demands a welfare cheque. Fuck em.
Reminding us all of how badly you misread me and lost the plot hours ago is not helping your case James.
How could you think that it would?
Nobody here is on your side. Either we are all crazy (right, left and all shades between), or you are a strange drunken misanthrope.
I know which horse to back.
Yeah, I know Rabz. I was wording sfdc up on the last 24 hours.
err, I’d ‘ave to look it up.
He did appear to be steadfast last night, whilst wickets collapsed around ‘im…
That’s not a moral question, kelly.
This is like teaching an 8 year old.
If you owed me $1000 and you couldn’t pay but the Austalian government had advised me before the loan that your credit was excellent and moreover that they audited your books and that your financial position was sound and you had $10,000 in liquid assets and $4000 in liabilities, then the Australian government and you are morally responsible for the debt.
You are responsible legally for the debt and the government might also be lgally reponsible.
But if the government refuses to cover whatever about your immorality or that of the governments I’m not going to get any return on my money.
and will lose mmy capital
He was worded up last night Squire!
If anyone needs teh score etc, give me a yell…
“it remains dishonest immoral lying drivel”
And yet strangely, you cannot quite bring yourself to explain what is wrong with any of it.
Why so coy?
Is this some kind of fan-dance?
Cos if so you should know I only go there for a really special kind of guy.
no too many. He looks quite nervous and wasn’t playing enough shots to take the pressure off. At state level he looks the goods but Marsh should take his place next match.
Dot if you are correct then just let it all unfold and the investors in banks take a hit. But the suggestion is that it is worse than that otherwise why not cut off funding to the Greeks etc. Then Greece may sell public assets and apparently they do have some they can sell.
Last score I got was from the West this morning. The story was obviously filed before the collapse.
Not that it matters, but be a man and speak for yourself you utterly pathetic sociopathic lying leftist.
Upping the ante with nothing in your hand AGAIN?
Man, I’d fucking love to play poker with you James.
James with your example that would only apply if it is in writing and the Euro has not done that otherwise would be solved they have only inferred or suggested that every country in the Euro is ok.
Can’t you do anytjing other than lie FDB?
Hmm? Just out of lazy interest?
Fucking oath they do.
sdfc was critical of me saying this, but I said this a long time ago now (at least six months now). They have more than enough assets to pay for it, but are trying to pretend they can’t pay.
They are just thieving pricks.
Fuck you’re a lying cunt James.
Dot
We are in agreement about something at last and I suggest they only way to do it is cut them off. A little more painful in the begining but much quicker and less painful overall.
Dot
A fire sale of Greek public assets is not a great plan. The optimal policy for the Greeks is to slap capital controls on the country ahead of returning to the drachma.
Well poker is all about deceit, FDB but given your addictive nature and blatant lies and scum-bucketry, I’m not sure gambling would be good for your health, FDB.
Besides, some people don’t take kindly to being ripped off by a shyster.
I’m just sayin’
To sum up once more my “sociopathic leftist lies”:
1) Labour markets had less to do with Greece’s FUBAR situation then did financial markets. The ready supply of unpayable debt permitted foolish spending, which in turn demanded more borrowing, in a classic and predictable spiral.
2) Lenders bear responsibility for bad debt, as do borrowers. The moral character of their responsibility differs, but both have some.
Now please, disagree with these propositions if you will. But avoid the unhinged abuse. It doesn’t hurt me, and it makes you sound like a loser.
sdfc
You do realise that means every business with a loan will collapse.
Demonstrate where or rack off little man.
“poker is all about deceit”
Sometimes it’s about cards.
What I’m demonstrating is you don’t know when you are being trolled. Of course I didn’t mean that. I’m serious now: are you new to the internet?
There is no “great plan”. You’re basically telling me they should expropriate investment. Why should investors in viable business pay for this?
FDB is lying about his lies!
Show me where I supposedly argued that Labour markets had anything to do with Greece’s plight
FDB on the other hand said:
“It is straightforwardly a failure of the financial market.
Anyone wishing to argue otherwise needs to actually make an argument, because the prima facie case is against them.”
Apparently now the scumbag liar assets that he actually said:
1. “Labour markets had less to do with Greece’s FUBAR situation then did financial markets. The ready supply of unpayable debt permitted foolish spending, which in turn demanded more borrowing, in a classic and predictable spiral”
2. “Lenders bear responsibility for bad debt, as do borrowers. The moral character of their responsibility differs, but both have some.”
Your deceit is sociopathic FDB because you are shameless.
It’s not the investors choice Dot. It’s the Greek’s choice.
Hmm.
I’m just not used to shameless lying scum like FDB.
They’re scum. They can pay for this. They’re like a CEO rooting the secretary in the toilets and not at the Sofitel or the Hyatt. They’d make her buy the rubbers too. Then dock her pay for excessive toilet breaks.
FDB was refering to Judith’s comment at 5.54 pm Judith has some good ideas but she tends to relate everything back to labour markets.
“Inflexible labour market regulation is at the core of the economic problems of many European countries.”
Judith correctly presumes freer labour markets lead to more employment. If you have higher unemployment, it is harder to pay off the debt. You realise how low our unemployment rate got to when we had the (imperfect) WorkChoices? They would be less reliant on handouts as well with lower unemployment rates. Furthermore, over time, with higher GDP, they’d be able to take a hit better.
Unemployment fell to 35 year lows because we were in the middle of a huge terms of trade boom.
That is the only reason? How much of the economy is mining/services to mining, sdfc?
James, you are doing such a fantastic job of undermining your own credibility that I need hardly contribute.
As Kelly says, I was responding initially to Judith’s comment, and YOU saw fit to weigh on the basis of a complete and utter misinterpretation. One with which you apparently persist.
Tilting at windmills, you are. And because I haven’t actually said anything you actually disagree with, you’re stuck with mindless abuse.
Bored now.
Dot
The mining sector trades with the wider economy. National income is raised by an increase in the terms of trade.
Public sector workers are constitutionally protected against being terminated. The government was unable to retrench during the crisis because of this.
Private sector workers are also offered strong protections and the the labor markets are totally inflexible.
Retirement could happen at 50 with almost full salary and conditions.
Public debt was used to fund the welfare state and a large part of these hyper generous allowances.
FDB, you cannot just say that the Grecian problem was a financial one without looking at the underlying causes. The debt was a symptom of the abuse.
Stop being silly.
Dot The level of GDP does not matter much in itself and being able to take a hit is more about debt. How do you think the current Australian government would have gone if the debt was already 50% . So it is more about relative change with Australians having number 2 median wages in the world, does that mean we are doing the best in the world at this moment in time measuring this by social outcomes not money? I would say we are doing great and in a relative sense we are going backwards but we are a long way from the credit cut off point so everything is fine.
Terms of trade has been higher now for an entire year or more than during the earlier part of the mining boom (pre crisis).
Labour market flexibility is why unemployment could fall so low. The reform was designed to improve allocative efficiency. Returns to capital were higher, and this drove up the demand for labour.
No.
This is what Gingrich was paid to schmooze Washington to go easy on Freddie and Fanny so corruption is not an Italian phenomenon:
This week, Bloomberg News reported that Freddie Mac paid him between $1.6 million and $1.8 million in “consulting fees” over eight years beginning in 1999, ostensibly to help design a program to expand home ownership, among other policy matters.
no. greeks lied about their debt and attempted to hide their real position.
Try living in a recession whilst unemployed vs having a job.
The unemployment rate should be EVEN LOWER than in the WC period then. But it isn’t.
Fuck off bartelby, we’re having a reasonable discussion here. Two words, Barney Frank.
JC
“Public sector workers are constitutionally protected against being terminated.”
How can this be and what it guarantees them certain wages etc. ? Seems unlikely to me.
Dot
The first ToT boom was accomapnied by a credit boom.
The economy is currently suffering a debt hangover.
Labour market flexibility is a euphemism for lthe ow wages and bad conditions that authoritarian governments specialise in creating.
Barney Frank is not running for President, but the darling of the right at the moment is Freddie Gingrich.
Seems the main problem is the belief that money grows on trees, or that if the central banks drop interest rates to zero then an infinite quantum of money comes into existence.
As as social democratic economics, or an oxymoron.
Bartelby Simpson,
You ignorant leftist redneck. No one predicted the fallout.
It’s well known that some people on the right supported high levels of home ownership because they saw it as stabilizing and offering opportunities to low income earners.
There is nothing in this principle that could be considered corrupt, you insidious clown.
It was obviously a wrong thing to do, but it wasn’t corrupt.
What is corrupt is you posting comments here.
The Australian economy? Dude, you should know this but commercial banks dropped their rates BEFORE the RBA.
Just admit that WC was flawed, but had good results.
Seriously FDB, you are a pathological liar.
Get help.
Moderator
Is there any value added having Bartelby Simpson posting illiterate scrawl at the site?
When you don’t have an argument call for the censor, JC???
Judiths comment saying the following “core of the economic problems of many European” is what I don’t agree with. The core of all problems is debt. Labour is a secondary issue.
Banks dropped fixed rates because market rates fell.
Credit growth has slumped mainly because of a lack of demand.
The core of europe’s problem at the moment is the euro.
Wriggle scumbag
Louis
Zero bound interest rates is a sign of serious deflationary tendencies in the economy.
Even zero interest rates could be a extreme tightness.
Furthermore credit conditions in places like the US are much tighter than they were before the crash.
But TOT are higher now.
What was driving demand before sdfc? Could it be firms with higher efficiency gains wanting to take on workers with more flexibility?
No its not.
The debt of the USA is 100% of GDP.
The debt of Germany is 70% of GDP.
The default of Greece will rock finacial markets.
That’s the problem.
Economic inefficiency is Europe is related to big government labour markets that will need reform if Europe’s stagnnat economies are to grow.
No Bartelby Simpson, you economically illiterate red neck.
The core of the European problem at the present moment is high levels of debt and a collapse in economic activity, which due to inflexibility and rigidities has difficulty creating economic growth.
You are too stupid to be here, Simpson.
“FDB asserted that it was “straightforwardly” the creditors “failure”.”
No, I did not. As I explained patiently and politely, a few times now, the financial market consists of both creditors AND debtors. Both bear responsibility for bad (or good) loans.
Now how about you stop acting like a ten year old?
Bartelby
I’m not asking for you to be censored as you are able to post elsewhere. There is no reason for you to be spamming the site with turgid leftist crap, Simpson.
You ought to be thrown off the site, you stupid clown.
yes, you want to censor and your argumentative style is uncouth and lacking in civility, so you impress nobody
James it depends who you owe the debt to and how much they are charging you and do you want to borrow more etc. Japan seems to do ok because all the debt is internal. US is doing ok because they are defacto world currency. But I would suggest even in Japan or US something will happen at some stage can’t go on forever.
Bartelby Simpson:
I’m rude to leftwing nutballs like you who post deranged crap here. Of course I’m not civil to you as you offer nothing to this site.
You are not pithy and you are smart. You are a pathetic dumb leftie.
oops not smart..
No, you got it right, I’m smart and you’re not.
Bartelby, hi. You’re not related to rog by any chance?
nite all
Not related to Rog.
This site claims that is not right wing, but centre-right so it covers about 80% of all known political discourse in Australia.
Please God give me a break from this serial liar and shyster.
Even his setup background to his novel interpretation of english is a lie.
“Lending money to people with no capacity to pay it back ….. is straightforwardly a failure of the financial market” and now according to pathological serial liar FDB, the financial market is really the financial institutions purchasing safe-as-houses low interest (1 – 1.5%) government bonds equally across all eurozone countries for ppension plans and insurance companies
They lend from a eurozone country that reports deficits over many years as in the EU approved range of 6% of GDP against the EU approved background government debt of 60% of GDP when the real figures are 15% and 120% resoectively.
Now get this, according to serial liar FDB, Greece is also the “finacial markets” and that’s why FDB really rooly meant to spread the misery around equally, dontcha know.
Like I said earlier: shameless
lend to
Yeah as opposed to 80% of extreme leftism on ‘their’ ABC and Farfax and 60% centre leftism and 30% extreme leftism on the FTA television and 100% lunar space cadet leftism on Crikey – which is ur natural home
Bartelbore.
Toddle along
No Bart Simpson, you don’t take cover from an obvious missing word that was later corrected to suggest you’re smart. You’re not smart and offer nothing to this site other than wasted pixels.
You are a clown.
——
As for Newt supporting low income housing finance. You also need to pay attention to the support Odumbo gave the CRA and the comments he’s made sympathetic to low income finance. He was also instrumental in supporting ACORN’s attack on the banking system. He supported ACORN’s accusations of racist lending practices. Good luck seeing attacks on Newt over the GSE’s you moron.
Moreover, libertarian philosophy was invented by the left and its not the same as philosophies oriented to corporate power.
Simpson,
Stop spamming the site.
No. It was invented in the late 18th century by french and english libertarians. Even the name was invested back then by a churchmen of the same belief.
dot
Lying cunts aside, wouldn’t you be wary of Greeks bearing assets?
Libertarian epistemology may date from the C18th, but the political use of the term which dates from the C19th was a leftist innovation.
The left used to be the part of freedom but it split and what we call the left nowadays is only in favour of freedoms that upset conservatives, otherwise it is economically illiterate and in favour of the nanny state.
Stictly speaking, the left dating from the time of the French revolution was the party or parties of reform against the ancient regime. But when the parties of reform got control then it became a question of the kind of reform and there the socialists and interventionists split from the liberals and libertarians. But the liberals split as well and we have left liberals versus libertarian liberals, so all these terms have become meaningless without qualificatios and clarification. Classical liberalism is probably the best option right now, with cultural conservatism on some issues and a more libertarian approach on others.
Rafe
It all seems a bit academic to me and if anyone was to fit perfectly into any group then they have been brainwashed. Each new political idea should be challenged using common sense principles and in particular where the ideology may actually contradict itself. Another way to put it is maybe like with free speech there must be limits it is just an arguement of where that limit is.
I kind of agree with Kelly.
I don’t regard being “a bit academic” as a criticism. I take that to mean going into a bit of history and philosophy to recognize the nuances of ideas and the way these bias public debate. Some people are passionately attached to being “left” and not being “conservative”. They need to be a bit more academic, by which I mean critical and historically informed, while you probably mean using a bit more commonsense:)
Rafe
I think thats right. Mostly I am saying should always judge critically and I suppose think for yourself. Some people don’t and that goes across all political groups but would be true to say is stronger on the left at the moment as the Labor Party is about join us and agree with us in solidarity and the Liberal Party is more along the lines of join us if you have simular ideas and tell us what you think. Also Liberals are allowed to vote against the Party if they feel strongly about something.
The solidarity and group think of the left and ALP hves dug them into a hole where they will look increasingly silly and destructive. However the Libs have not been able to match them in winning elections and winning public debates, this has to change by education and motivation of the Lib/Nat grassroots and I think or hope that plans are under way to achieve that. The reason for being a bit academic about this is that the Libs have got to find out the principles of classical liberalism, translate them into policy and sell them to the electorate.
From ur keyboard to God’s ears
Wrong. If only you read a little more!
From the Irish Times – very good reporting.
France now has to pay over twice as much as Germany to borrow for 10 years, even though both carry triple-A credit rating. In the French senate, Mr Baroin played down concerns over the country’s position, saying conditions were “satisfactory” and the rates were still “favourable”.
The yields on bonds of countries from Portugal to Finland, the Netherlands to Austria also rose relative to Germany yesterday
James, I must say it’s odd to see someone other than Bird claiming doggedly that someone else is “lying”, without producing a single example of anything even resembling a lie. It’s actually a pretty meaningful accusation to throw around.
The closest you’ve come is to assert that your misinterpretation of what I said at the outset must have been what I really meant. Somehow, everyone else reading has managed to understand me quite well.
Get fucked, FDB.
There is no misinterpretation and no attempt by you to clarify but onlt to obfuscate and be smart-ass after my initial criticism.
You smarmy contemptible liar.
Back to flinging poo then?
Still no example of me lying?
FDB I think there is no point debating with James. The only thing he is capable of doing is shouting abuse.
That and being wrong, true.
Libertarians are neo-liberals.
Its liberalism that emerged as the proper term, but it can’t be used in the US and in the UK because liberalism went in a more progressive direction.
In countries like Australia, liberalism is identified too much with a party that contains a variety of ideologies, so libertarian emerges.
But libertarian was and still is a leftist term used correctly, for example, by Chomsky.
Bartleby, in Australia, self-described libertarians from the 19C up to the 1980s were virtually entirely leftists. The historic record clearly shows this.
FDB, Barelbore and Boris should form a circle.
Or have they done that already?
Wrong bart. D’oh.
Only if you read a little more!
I’ve barely seen one or two consistently right wing libertarian positions expressed here.
All I’ve read is pro Liberal Party/Tony Abbott and pro-Republican sentiment with a more neo-liberal edge.
This blog reads like it was made up mostly by Young Liberals back from a booze up.
name a non-libertarian position that you’ve seen this blog endorse, Bartleby.
so Barter, open borders policy endorsed by Sinc and dot are Abbott’s positions?
catallaxy tends to also be anti-war on drugs, and even anti-regulation of pharmacy; these aren’t exactly mainstream Liberal positions.
Catallaxy’s against any action on climate change – again, not Liberal party policy.
Plenty of other positions. the cat is more hard-core in favour of deregulation and reform than the Libs, against tariffs… not exactly a cheer squad for Liberal/National policy.
I’ve yet to revise my opinion in the light of further comment.
Never seen anybody advocate the de-regulation of pharmacy or law, for that matter.
Haven’t seen much evidence of pro-choice sentiment with regard to drugs.
Climate change and other matters is just an example of those on the fringe acting as a ginger group for those in power.
Well it’s been here, and discussed at length. Perhaps you don’t like what you’re reading because it challenges your thinking.
At any rate, I asked you to name a non-libertarian view advocated by the blog, but you can’t seem to do so. Surely that seals the deal – a knock-out blow to your criticism.
no, all the topics that feature – industrial relations, environment – are usually the ones currently dividing liberal and labour and this blog simply takes a hard-line liberal position as opposed to the liberal positions that seasoned politicians take to the public.
Whatever libertarianism is, it must be almost identical with hard-line liberalism, to judge so far.
That’s because of the anti-libertarian government that’s in power right now.
There’s no obligation to treat both sides equally when one is clearly against everything you stand for.
What’s “liberalism”?
I note that, having failed to win any debates on any particular subject matter, you’ve resorted to meta-commentary.
Is Bartelby, Rog? Same excruciating dullness. Every word dripping with a depressiveness that would make me jump if I were them.
So this guessin’ game is there to lauch a few gratuitous insults.
launch – to save all you typo-correction service providers.
Oh please fuck off you lying bore. They wouldn’t let half of us in the Liberal Party.