I have a piece in today’s Sydney Morning Herald showing how an alliance of self interested parties and the usual green anti-growth crowd are throttling coal seam gas developments especially in NSW. CSG involves relatively new technology and offers considerable potential income levels.
We have put so many barriers in place of new venters in the primary production area that paralysis seems to be the normal order.
It does seem that agriculture has been forced into stagnation. Tree clearing bans mean that no new farmland is to be developed. Irrigation is being curtailed and there are no prospects of new dams. Live export markets are being destroyed placing the northern grazing industries in turmoil.
Pickles
28 Dec 11 at 8:13 am
Couldn’t agree more. However I think the miners should pay land owners proper rates for access to, and us of, their land. If it’s an industry, can create wealth and export opportunities then you can almost guarantee that a movement will begin to stop it. Farmers should be really careful how they play this lest their arguments are later turned against farming practices to hobble food production.
John Comnenus
28 Dec 11 at 8:14 am
Some quibbles with your article Alan:
1: Directly linking CSG with shale gas (the bad boy in Gaslands) will really set the hairs running amongst the freaks. I regard CSG as a lot less risky as shale gas extraction, because
2: Shale gas is heavily reliant on Fraccing to loosen up the shale beds, making the gas easier to extract. There is less reliance on Fraccing in coal seams, but it does happen. Which brings me to your dismissal of BTEX bans. I would question your estimate of a 15% loss without the use of diesel or other BTEX derivatives in the Fraccing process. In Queensland they use other chemicals that do not break down into BTEX. Why use something that may or may not be carcinogenic, but certainly acts as a lightning rod for the anti progress crowd, when there are substitutes?
3: Queensland is much more advanced that NSW not because of the impediments to development now being put in place in NSW, but because Queensland got going earlier, and importantly, actually worked with landholders and the industry to get the appropriate regulations in place in a timely fashion, and it must be said, before the activists really got going. In the dying days of the last NSW administration, well, they were dying. If ever a ‘government’ deserved to be kicked out, it was that mob.
4: What NSW needs is appropriate management of waste water and clear land access arrangements, like Queensland already has in place. And then make sure landholders understand the land access arrangements, which of course, must have an emphasis on allowing both CSG wells and agriculture to be practiced side by side, and making sure the landholder is not worse off.
It has been said is that good land access arrangements have been established once landholders starting fighting amongst each other to allow CSG extraction on their place.
Entropy
28 Dec 11 at 8:17 am
Thanks for that informative article, Alan.
daddy dave
28 Dec 11 at 8:56 am
Farmers are already been broken and are the green lobby’s bitch. That’s remarkable considering that they have their own political party, but have watched over decades of stifling strictures on farming and the expansion of farming. The National Party are useless.
daddy dave
28 Dec 11 at 8:56 am
It’s not that the national party are useless (well, not entirely) but that they would like to one day be in government so that the get to govern.
And once you are governing, you might want to actually have a CSG industry. It is easy to just say no if you are Bob Katter, as your Modes Operandi requires you to never be in a position to actually make good on your promises.
In Queensland, the CSG industry will deliver $850 million per annul in royalties. Should we just say no to that?
Entropy
28 Dec 11 at 9:07 am
Two other things in your article, Alan, there was a veiled reference to improving revenues to the state from CSG. By all means NSW should examine its royalty regime with respect to gas, but any attempts from denizens of the Feds to steal our state’s wealth (other than via corporate taxes) can bugger off.
The other thing was the supposition that Domestic CSG prices would not rise to the export price. I doubt that. The only way that would happen is if a government was to quarantine by regulation a quantity of gas for domestic purposes. Otherwise the domestic price would have to match the export price, as export demand will exceed supply for a long time.
Entropy
28 Dec 11 at 9:13 am
Entropy, some quibbles with your earlier post.
Gasland, simply put is a crock of shit. Fraccing for shales, particularly in Australia, is not a high risk activity at all. Principally, this low risk is a function of depth, with most prospective shales in Australia occurring between 2,000 and 4,500 metros. Shale gas potential in Australia eclipses CSG by at least a factor of two and more importantly generally doesn’t occur in areas in Australia with intensive agriculture. Fraccing is a common oil nag gas field activity and has been carried out thousands of time in onshore area in Australia with no incident. Fun fact, Barrow Island off the WA coast has had over 700 well fracs since the 1960′s without incident and has been an A class nature reserve for some time.
With regards to BTEX, one of the biggest Beat ups of our times. BTEX is not a common ingredient in fraccing fluids and typically occurs in very small amounts as a carrying solvent for some chemicals for the process. The vast majority of fracc jobs don’t need or have BTEX compounds at all. What is BTEX? About 15 -20% of petrol and diesels are BTEX, as are many common housed items, solvents and adhesives. Much of the BTEX detected in Qld to date have bee as a result of previous agricultural activities.
With regards to land access for CSG, what farmers (and the Commonwealth) forget is that all mineral and petroleum resources under private land ( leasehold, freehold etc.) is proprty of the crown. Farmers are only entitled to actual loss or actual ongoing losses as a result of an extractive activity on their land. They are prevented under state laws to negotiate terms in consideration of the value of the resource extracted from under their land.
Antipodean
28 Dec 11 at 9:38 am
You know , credit where credit it due. I saw a minister discuss this subject recently and he was all for this form of energy extraction. He said the science was clearly on the side of this method. He suggested firms need to be careful with the water table but as far as the government was concerned it was open slather.
Maybe he was bullshitting, but at least this was the first time I’ve heard these idiots be on the right side of a policy since they have been in government.
Baby steps.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 9:50 am
For all these alleged complaints by farmers about CSG, I am yet to hear of a state mining warden decision used as an example of farmers being mistreated. One can only assume from the lack of specific complaints that the umpire must being doing a good job. There is no need for new regulations.
This whole issue is an environmental/media beat up, supported by a few farmers trying to boost their payout.
2dogs
28 Dec 11 at 9:54 am
I thought that was essentially what I said, Antipodean. we are not very far apart at all. Diesel is a minor component of Fraccing fluid in OS operations, and there are substitutes, so why demand it? It just becomes a vehicle for opposition to the whole industry.
As for land access, of course TEH State owns the resource. The resource detractor though, has to go through land where the title belongs to the landholder. Good terms for this access is essential. I have been involved in land access for resource companies for a long time, and I can tell you that it is only recently that companies have started taking land access arrangements seriously. This is an historical issue as back in the day (ie the eighties) resource development needed every bit of help it could get, as commodity prices we poor and investment needed encouragement by minimizing impediments to land access. There just wasn’t that much activity.
Nowadays it is different with resource extraction happening everywhere you look. The more resource companies can make landholders happy, the easier it will be to get at the resource, and the less ‘moral’ authority the opponents to CSG will have.
Entropy
28 Dec 11 at 10:05 am
Slight error there: typed too fast on the iPad.
Entropy
28 Dec 11 at 10:07 am
Hard to disagree with you 2dogs.
John Comnenus
28 Dec 11 at 10:18 am
Look I think the current problem … farmers vs the miners.. indicates a real weakness in the way royalties are distributed.
If there is a piece of land with mining potential, the government takes the loot while the farmer is essentially paid at market value to exit the land. this is a real shitty situation and I can understand the farmers plight.
They ought to at least share in the royalties.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 10:22 am
How about we go back to basics?
The owner of the land owns the land – full stop. Why should the government have the right to tell you not to dig a mine, build a cubby house, or chop down a tree on your own property?
Yes, it’s going to be a legal nightmare to implement, but more regulation is never the solution.
That’s how we got to this point.
Winston Smith
28 Dec 11 at 10:58 am
Not just the Nationals. It’s interesting that we lament the gradual erosion of our rights – including our property rights – while forgetting that we have a frequently successful and lengthily-incumbent Liberal Party that refuses to repeal this country back to vitality. The Nats may be useless but the Liberals are worse: they’re yellow.
C.L.
28 Dec 11 at 11:23 am
Small farmers and environmentalists are a natural ally.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 11:34 am
Urine:
That’s about as true as you’re not Bird’s fat hairy trannie.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 11:37 am
How small do they have to be?
Four feet? Five?
C.L.
28 Dec 11 at 11:37 am
No surprise from the Director of Deregulation Instiute of Public affairs a corporate funded think tank, linked to the Liberal Party…. In the pursuit of the god money you people would poison the last stream and cut down the last tree… when will you people realise you can’t eat money. I know when. When its too late..
Thomas Brookes
28 Dec 11 at 12:07 pm
The issue is water and the salinity that occurs as a result of csg mining, the other issue is due to the act of fracking naturally o curing toxins in the earth leach into the water table, left alone the do not pose a risk. Csg is not sustainable and we cant afford to take the risk. No amount of money is worth food and water security. I do not want to live in a country which is pock marked by gas wells for any amount of money .
truth fairy
28 Dec 11 at 12:44 pm
truth fairy and Thomas Brookes are the voice of reason. Fatty O’Farrell has placed a moratorium on csg mining pending community consultations and further eis.
csg is shaping up to be one of the biggest political/social/economic battles in NSW history and the mining industry has got a helluva fight on its hands, thanks to farmers, sections of the National Party, and of course the Greens and the broader environmental community.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 4:18 pm
Well tf, if you won’t stay in a country which is pock marked by gas wells for any amount of money, where are you going to go?
Piss off, take TB and FC with you, and live in Tanganyika, or whatever poverty stricken shithole you can find.
Winston Smith
28 Dec 11 at 4:28 pm
About the same time as you with some original words or even an actual argument?
twostix
28 Dec 11 at 4:35 pm
Notice how he collectivities the decision for us all “we can’t afford to take the risk” but makes his subjective demands as an individual: “I do not want to live in a country which is pock marked by gas wells for any amount of money .”
Me, me, we.
twostix
28 Dec 11 at 4:38 pm
Winston’s a cheery soul!
“The owner of the land owns the land – full stop. Why should the government have the right to tell you not to dig a mine, build a cubby house, or chop down a tree on your own property?”
I don’t think you understand the problem.
The owner of the land doesn’t want a gas field, yet the government gives the miner the rights to take up the surface of the owners land with their infrastructure whether the owner objects or agrees. The owner has no choice in the matter!
I’m yet to meet a farmer that pro-actively wants a gas field on their land.
Peter Firminger
28 Dec 11 at 4:43 pm
It always amuses me whenever I read articles claiming to easily cut through CSG spin to find “real” facts. The whole reason CSG is so contentious is because there is no scientific consensus.
The data currently isn’t hard enough to easily dismiss arguments from either the industry or environmentalists. Your attempt to do so, Alan, is just another example of fact cherry picking.
You are right to say there is a lot of “misinformation” on CSG, and if you work from the pro-industry data, you’ve also recycled it. I think the APPEA would take issue with you caliming Australia’s CSG industry employs “new technology”.
And RE:
“Activists have sought to justify the bans on the basis that, of the tens of thousands of wells in the US, which have been subject to the most stringent analysis, one has shown possible evidence of the presence of these chemicals in the local groundwater.”
Could someone please point me to the source of this fact? I’d be interested to have a read.
Andrew Duffy
28 Dec 11 at 4:44 pm
Urine, phil
It’s so subversive, isn’t it. Aren’t you excited, you hairy trannie?
JC
28 Dec 11 at 4:47 pm
Aboriginal cultural heritage is shaping up to being a major obstacle to csg mining in the premier state.
And of course BoF has said that NO Aboriginal public servant will lose their job or have their position abolished under his government. That adds up to quite a reliable cohort up front which will oppose csg mining in conservation, protected or Aboriginal co-managed areas of the state.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 4:53 pm
“The issue is water and the salinity that occurs as a result of csg mining, the other issue is due to the act of fracking naturally o curing toxins in the earth leach into the water table, left alone the do not pose a risk.”
Your post contains more toxins, you daft idiot.
Extraction occurs well, well below the water table, you nimbus. The only way you could get seepage is if the pipes crack above or at the water table, otherwise, unless you and other nimrods think water defies gravity, it’s a non issue.
“Csg is not sustainable and we cant afford to take the risk.”
Who exactly is we, you dickhead. Speak for yourself as I’m more than happy to take the risk. It’s sustainable to the extent that there are reserves and then it’s no longer sustainable.
And stop abuse words in the English language. Sustainability means nothing like you think it does.
” No amount of money is worth food and water security.
Bullshit.
“I do not want to live in a country which is pock marked by gas wells for any amount of money .”
Go buy some acne medication then. If you don’t want to live here then fuck off somewhere else. Who would give a shit.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 4:54 pm
Just Corny, the same goes for people who oppose csg mining. If you don’t like that it won’t occur, or that people will stop it, emigrate.
It’s our country, and we the people decide. It’s called democracy.
The US, btw, is producing the best research on why this industry is very dangerous and must be curtailed. Will be curtailed.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 4:58 pm
“Aboriginal cultural heritage is shaping up to being a major obstacle to csg mining in the premier state.”
Urine, Phil Stay away from the sick.
What aboriginal heritage is there 1000 feet underground with a couple of machines and pipes extracting the crap out of the ground?
Stop making excuses, you fat trannie.
“And of course BoF has said that NO Aboriginal public servant will lose their job or have their position abolished under his government. That adds up to quite a reliable cohort up front which will oppose csg mining in conservation, protected or Aboriginal co-managed areas of the state.”
Cohort? Yea right. Excluding whites that call themselves aboriginal in order to get money from the taxpayers, the total population is about 2% aboriginal.
The only cohort are you and and the misanthropic green-slimes putting out anti-science bullshit.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 5:00 pm
That’s not an issue. Alan already addressed that in his article.
I guess being a ‘Truth Fairy’ means never having to deal with facts?
yes it is, yes we can.
daddy dave
28 Dec 11 at 5:00 pm
“Just Corny, the same goes for people who oppose csg mining. If you don’t like that it won’t occur, or that people will stop it, emigrate.”
Lol. You’re the one opposing development and telling us you don’t want to live here because of some acne problem. So basically just fuck off then
“It’s our country, and we the people decide. It’s called democracy.”
Who decides exactly, you lunatic? Pressure groups over property rights.
“The US, btw, is producing the best research on why this industry is very dangerous and must be curtailed. Will be curtailed.”
The US is producing great research from proper scientists on why it a great technology and will be used. What you’re talking about is advocacy research from scum like the WWF and Greenpeace.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 5:04 pm
The oil and gas industries in the US are famously exempt from many environmental regulations, like the Safe Drinking Water Act and the science is clear that fracking inevitably brings unacceptable disasters and potential and actual environmental devastation.
Science shows that fracking is a very poorly designed experiment.
It’s irresponsible for health reasons.
It’s objectionable from a libertarian pov on the basis that economic pressures to give it the go ahead are coercive for individuals and politicians – or the state – and on that basis alone renders it undemocratic.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 5:13 pm
To quote Col. Nathan R. Jessup, “is there any other kind”?
C.L.
28 Dec 11 at 5:16 pm
“Is there any other kind”?
But of course, the God-given kind. I’m a Catholic, C.L. so I know there are two kinds of disasters. Fracking is a decision of humans. It is not a natural disaster in the making.
This is news to you?
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 5:20 pm
“The oil and gas industries in the US are famously exempt from many environmental regulations….”
Yea, the Odumbo administration extorted $20 billion from BP shows the US is really lax.
“the science is clear that fracking inevitably brings unacceptable disasters and potential and actual environmental devastation.”
Bullshit. Da science you’re referring to is the anti-science crap coming out of green scum. On the other hand the real science shows that fracking is a great way to extract oil and gas ensuring the US will be energy independent and exporting energy to the rest of the world. It’s marvelous.
“Science shows that fracking is a very poorly designed experiment.”
No it doesn’t, you’re lying.
“It’s irresponsible for health reasons.”
Not true. You’re lying again.
“It’s objectionable from a libertarian pov on the basis that economic pressures to give it the go ahead are coercive for individuals and politicians – or the state – and on that basis alone renders it undemocratic.”
Nothing to do with libertarians as we’re a small minority. It’s perfectly good way of extracting oil and gas creating bountiful reserves. God has been kind to us again.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 5:23 pm
“Fracking is a decision of humans.”
aren’t we a cool species. Never resting to find a way to make an honest buck serving people and giving them what they want. Good cheap energy.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 5:25 pm
Piss off the people who produce the food at your peril. Stalin did that and look where he ended up.
Are you a neo-Stalinist, perchance, Just Corny?
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 5:32 pm
Let’s be upfront here. The Greens, Lock the Gate Alliance etc oppose CSG not because they have any genuine concerns over the impact on the water table, impact on landholders etc, it’s because they oppose fossil fuels. They want us to bypass gas and go straight to renewables. It doesn’t matter that renewables cannot provide the increasing baseload power. I’m honestly sick and tired of the broad and no-evidence-to-back-it-up statements that are made. Here’s an idea – be specific, provide the evidence to back it up and I might take what you say seriously.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 5:33 pm
“Piss off the people who produce the food at your peril.”
Piss off the miners and the energy producers at your peril too, you fool.
“Stalin did that and look where he ended up.”"
No, Stalin killed them off as they were opposed to his totalitarian rule. It’s the same thing as what the greenslime wants to do.
“Are you a neo-Stalinist, perchance, Just Corny?”
Lol, yea I am because I support the production of cheap energy. Go look in the mirror and you see a real live fascist staring back, you misanthropic clown.
Fracking is a great new technology source that we’re going to celebrate and thank God for the engineers that came up with the new process.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 5:36 pm
American farmers have signed millions of leases allowing companies to drill for oil and natural gas on their land in recent years. But some of these landowners are finding out too late what is, and what is not, in the fine print.
One survey showed that fewer than half the leases require companies to compensate landowners for water contamination after drilling begins. Most leases grant gas companies broad rights to decide where they can cut down trees, store chemicals, build roads and drill.
In the leases, drilling companies rarely describe to landowners the potential environmental and other risks that may or will pertain.
Most leases are for three or five years, but most also allow extensions without additional approval from landowners. If landowners have second thoughts about drilling on their land or want to negotiate for more money, tough titty.
In many US states landowners have had to spend hundreds of dollars a month to buy bottled water for drinking. They learned only after the fact that the leases did not require csg companies to pay for replacement drinking water if their wells were contaminated.
Thousands of landowners in US states have joined class action lawsuits claiming that they were paid less than they expected because gas companies deducted costs like hauling chemicals to the well site or transporting the gas to market.
Rent seeking much?
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 5:40 pm
Um, just to provide a fact or two; CSG is not Shale Gas. The two are distinct and separate. So let’s start there.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 5:43 pm
Dex, let me introduce you to a (not so) novel concept and analytical tool: pattern recognition.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 5:48 pm
hey jc you off your medication mate, before you rant you should check your facts . i know where id like to stick a csg well,right up your arse we could probably solve the energy crisis right now
truth fairy
28 Dec 11 at 5:53 pm
“American farmers have signed millions of leases allowing companies to drill for oil and natural gas on their land in recent years. But some of these landowners are finding out too late what is, and what is not, in the fine print.”
Ummm I’m not sure that’s true, but even if it is they should read any contract prior to signing and if they don’t understand it they ought to go see an attorney for advice.
In fact they ought to see an attorney anyway.
“One survey showed that fewer than half the leases require companies to compensate landowners for water contamination after drilling begins. Most leases grant gas companies broad rights to decide where they can cut down trees, store chemicals, build roads and drill.”
That’s not exactly fine print, that’s the body of the contract. No one, ;east of all American farmers, are forced off their land as they receive direct compensation for exploration and extraction.
Where’s the evidence for this and what is the source?
“In the leases, drilling companies rarely describe to landowners the potential environmental and other risks that may or will pertain.”
A standard contract would exactly explain what is being done.
Evidence please.
“Most leases are for three or five years, but most also allow extensions without additional approval from landowners. If landowners have second thoughts about drilling on their land or want to negotiate for more money, tough titty.”
Yep, lease contracts are bitch if you get cold feet after signing. extensions are generally standard in that industry, you muppet.
“In many US states landowners have had to spend hundreds of dollars a month to buy bottled water for drinking.”
As a result of oil extraction? Bulls fuck.
How much does the water cost exactly, as no one spends 100′s of 1000′s on water bottles you metal midget.
“They learned only after the fact that the leases did not require csg companies to pay for replacement drinking water if their wells were contaminated.”
there are EPA regulations that prevent that. You’re talking bullshit, you swine, Phil
“Thousands of landowners in US states have joined class action lawsuits claiming that they were paid less than they expected because gas companies deducted costs like hauling chemicals to the well site or transporting the gas to market.”
Read the contract if it’s true. I want to see the evidence and the source.
“Rent seeking much?”
Who the farmers demanding more than they signed up for? Yep.
Fracking is a great energy source and we ought to be on on hands and knees thanking the engineers that came up with it. They are heroes.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 5:54 pm
Fairy says
“hey jc you off your medication mate, before you rant you should check your facts .”
Here we go the put-on aggressive leftie. LOl
This is going to be interesting. The social democrat with balls. How unique.
I do check my facts you unassailable moron. I know quite a deal about that heaven sent industry and why it will save us and support cheap and abundant energy to fuel industrial civilization.
” i know where id like to stick a csg well,right up your arse we could probably solve the energy crisis right now”
You could stick in your mouth as far more methane is coming out of there, Fairy.
You leftwing green dickheads make me laugh, as you’re fucking whacked in the head.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 5:58 pm
fill the cup – let me introduce you to a novel concept – it’s called facts. Use it, apply it and you might wake up to a thing called reality.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 6:01 pm
Dex
It’s not Fill The Cup. It’s urine and the other idiot here is Fairy. These two knuckleheads are all evidence based from Greenpeace and the WWF.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 6:07 pm
JC, I’m sure they’re busy scouring the Greens &/or Lock the Gate Alliance website to find their so-called “facts”.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 6:11 pm
im sure you know alot about the heaven sent industry no guessing who pays your wage. guess what the green slimmy scumbags are going to kick your csg arse right off the planet just wait and see moron, your lack of information on the topic even from a pro stand point is infantile
truth fairy
28 Dec 11 at 6:11 pm
Just in case anyone is concerned about our capacity to feed ourselves, what about putting a stop to the Green lunacy of converting food into fuel for cars?
Rafe
28 Dec 11 at 6:13 pm
I think there is no doubt an absence of adequate protection for land holds in many states in the USA. So what? This is Australia.
Speaking for Qld, there is an elaborate system of landholder rights in the resources and P&G Acts, and the government advises getting legal advice prior to signing any access agreement, which the Act requires to be paid for by the CSG company!
The lock the gate mob fall into three camps: farmers who feel violated that anyone can come onto their property; a more intelligent small group with genuine concerns that will be talked around with the right agreement, and ferals on the blocks north of Tara who bought small plots of land in the middle of nowhere so they could hide from the rest of humanity. There will be no rational discussions with group 3. So I almost feel sad for the company that has the tenure of that area, except that it is QGC, who haven’t been too thoughtful of landholders in the past.
Lock the gate have formed an alliance with the Friends of the Earth dimwits, who are sort of the extreme end of greenpeace, but fortunately not as destructive as the OS variety of FOTE. FOTE’s main honcho, in an almost ludicrous coincidence, happens to be a Tara blockie.
Entropy
28 Dec 11 at 6:13 pm
Dex, let me introduce you to the philosophy of science circa 80 years ago.
What are you “facts” btw, bluster boy?
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 6:13 pm
Yet you provide no evidence to back up your own claims. That’s what the entire CSG opposition is based on. Nothing.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 6:14 pm
JC is a dude who has his trousers hoisted up around his armpits, right? Sorry for the diversion, but he does seem like a yokel, or more derogatively, an unproductive hayseed.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 6:16 pm
These left wing greenslime ratbags making these false claims ought to be sued for dishonesty if the miners had balls. And they would win too. Send the pricks out on the streets with begging bowls after they’ve paid legals and other compensation for lying.
JC
28 Dec 11 at 6:17 pm
I find Alan Morons article to be aggressive and meant to cause division among Australians. And by the look of some of the comments here coming from the housos and bogans he has acheived his aim. What an irresponsible and anti Australian thing to do. He should resign his position immediatly and I will be calling the terrorist hotline right now to report his attack on or freedom of speech.
Dean
28 Dec 11 at 6:17 pm
Of course an example of the more unhinged is tooth fairy. No acceptance that theybcould be wrong.
I actually prefer dealing with CSG companies, blood suckers that they are. At least you can make them feel guilty if they step beyond the bounds of a rational argument.
Entropy
28 Dec 11 at 6:17 pm
Dex, ask BoF about the “evidence” boyo.
Why do you think he is hesitating” Hmm?
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 6:19 pm
There’s nothing to add that JC has not already said. I’m just waiting for your response or is it because you are unable to offer any credible response in return.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 6:20 pm
BoF being a Liberal an’ all.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 6:20 pm
FTC – do you oppose fossil fuels? Personally, I am not against renewable energy but I’m realistic that it is a long long long way off.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 6:23 pm
Hahaha who are these noobs who have swarmed the site with these amazing debating skills?
twostix
28 Dec 11 at 6:31 pm
Dex, I find it hard to believe renewable energy is a long way off when the emerging global economy China is going for it along with the Tongan Baptist churches in Melbourne and Sydney who’ve made big financial/architectural investments in solar power.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 6:31 pm
Just Corny thinks that because Aborigines are only a certain percentage of the population their views count for nothing?
If so, the man is a totalitarian.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 6:34 pm
along with the Tongan Baptist churches in Melbourne and Sydney who’ve made big financial/architectural investments in solar power.
That’s why it’s called “having a faith”!
John Mc
28 Dec 11 at 6:37 pm
FTC – be realistic. It will be unable to provide baseload power for a long time. It’s why so many countries have now embraced nuclear power in order to be “green”. I base my bias on facts &/or well-weighted scientific evidence, and it truly annoys me when I see these groups who purport to want to tell people the “truth” all about piss on it for their own ends.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 6:40 pm
The fact is that the NSW Liberal Premier, BoF, has categorically stated that no Aboriginal public servant in NSW will lose their job under his watch by way of redundancy, restructure or related means.
That guarantees that a numerically and politically significant employment cohort with community clout, and vested interest, will make future csg exploration or mining in NSW difficult and fraught.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 6:46 pm
Dex, like it or not the good burghers of Australia have ruled out nuclear power on a grand scale for the forseeable future. Blame IT or whatever. We’re a well-informed species and nuclear is dead meat more so since this year’s events in Japan.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 6:50 pm
well with night falling i guess you boys need to dust off your white sheets and i need to cook dinner for my six welfare dependant children. catch you latter comrades hope you ve got a plan when the plunders over
truth fairy
28 Dec 11 at 6:54 pm
FTC, be honest, you oppose CSG solely because you are anti-fossil fuels. Now taking that as your foundation, you’re more than happy to put forward so-called facts opposing CSG which any rational person would find questionable because it suits your anti-fossil fuel stance.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 6:59 pm
TF – I hope you’re happy living in darkness, so good luck rubbbing those 2 sticks together.
Dex
28 Dec 11 at 7:01 pm
Dex, no point in shooting the messenger. The facts are that outside of the csg industry most people, presumably many “rational” people, oppose it with all their hearts and minds and capabilities.
Whinging about that fact doesn’t advance human knowledge much or at all or convince anyone of a contrary position, now does it, honey?
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 7:13 pm
The EPA has not brought one prosecution for fraccing related pollution, or indeed any polluting consequences of extracting shale gas in the US.
The list of chemeicals which MAY be used in shale fraccing are here:
http://www.appea.com.au/images/stories/mb_files/APPEA_fraccing_chemicals.pdf
The issue of farmer’s rights vs the rights of gas companies to explore and develope gas resources on farming land should be dealt with on a 2-tiered basis; the first step should be whether productive agricultural land will be compromised; this is unlikely because gas extraction is not on the scale of coal and other mineral mining.
The 2nd tier is to what extent should private ownership of land be vitiated by competing interests which have strong community benefits; historically land ownership has seen a movement away from “Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos” as the twin realities of air travel and an overiding community interest in not having valuable resources locked up became dominant criteria.
The key is proper and reasonable compensation for land-owners who have their properties wholly or partially subject to resumption; the recent case of Peter Spencer highlighted the inadequacy of “just terms” compensation at a state jurisdiction, something that was already known by many landoweners who had their coal rights resumed by Wran via the Coal Acquisition Act 1981 (NSW).
However, like everything else they touch, the dead-hand of brain-dead green ideology will make the CSG issue a much more complicated issue.
cohenite
28 Dec 11 at 7:13 pm
“However, like everything else they touch, the dead-hand of brain-dead green ideology will make the CSG issue a much more complicated issue.”
Translation: Everything under the sun is more complicated than we can imagine. Or perhaps ever know.
Agreed.
Ergo, people like the Greens are the ones we should listen to and learn from. They are political sages.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 7:18 pm
historically land ownership has seen a movement away from “Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos” as the twin realities of air travel and an overiding community interest in not having valuable resources locked up became dominant criteria.
I’m not quite sure these are even vaguely comparable. Regardless of how big or how noisy it may be, anything flying above 10,000ft will not affect my property or its use in the slightest. Waking to a couple of trucks, a drilling tower and a team of blokes in the middle of my crops or even just on an unused portion of my property will definitely affect me in a negative way.
annomer
28 Dec 11 at 7:25 pm
China is opening a coal fired power station every ten days.
You are not a rational person and your comments read like a spambot created them.
twostix
28 Dec 11 at 7:33 pm
“Waking to a couple of trucks, a drilling tower and a team of blokes in the middle of my crops or even just on an unused portion of my property will definitely affect me in a negative way.”
Precisely.
Many Americans oppose fracking because of the increased truck traffic, air and noise pollution, chemical spills, water contamination and disruptions to wildlife and hunting grounds even before we reach the health and public safety grounds for opposing it.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 7:40 pm
“Ergo, people like the Greens are the ones we should listen to and learn from. They are political sages.”
I must say that gave me pause; assuming you are not taking the piss, the religious aspect of the Greens, especially in the context of AGW is well described here:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3747368.html
The misanthropic aspect of the Green ideology is described here:
http://theclimatescepticsparty.blogspot.com/2011/09/kids.html#comments
“Ergo” the Greens have no sage capacity but are a dead hand on the apotheosis of humanity, often joining with the atavism of religion to lock humanity into an endless regurgitation of primtivism and nature based misery.
As for annomer, please read what I said about conflicting interests and “just terms”.
cohenite
28 Dec 11 at 7:46 pm
Maybe they do, but my whole point was about the property rights issues with CSG.
annomer
28 Dec 11 at 7:47 pm
I agree with Just Terms. I’m just not sure the commercial exploitation of resources is a valid reason for compulsory acquisition of private property even with compensation on just terms except perhaps in very unusual circumstances.
annomer
28 Dec 11 at 7:52 pm
Property rights are by definition minority rights and by definition something that will be opposed or challenged by the majority (of non-property owners, if you like).
That’s your conundrum.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 7:55 pm
Where is this majority who do not own property?
annomer
28 Dec 11 at 7:57 pm
“Property rights are by definition minority rights”
Now, you are taking the piss; in Australia the percentage of home-ownership is about 70%; how is that a minority?
cohenite
28 Dec 11 at 8:01 pm
You don’t have to own a home to have property. People who rent or live in old folk’s homes or whatever have you, still have property and need property rights.
annomer
28 Dec 11 at 8:04 pm
Home owners do not have the legal right to protect their property from exploitation, even sale, by mining companies or other “developers”, private or public.
Therefore, by definition, the property rights of the mining industry, (or government) trump the rights of homeowners, all homeowners.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 8:08 pm
“Therefore, by definition, the property rights of the mining industry, (or government) trump the rights of homeowners, all homeowners.”
Not at all; however I would agree with you that a green government would have no property rights at all.
cohenite
28 Dec 11 at 8:13 pm
I thought it might be a good idea to set up a mine in my backyard. Until someone told me I only owned the first few feet of dirt.
sdfc
28 Dec 11 at 8:14 pm
well yes sdfc. There are property rights and property rights.
And the fact is that most property owners, i.e. home owners, only “own” the building/s and the topsoil upon which they are placed.
fill the cup
28 Dec 11 at 8:20 pm
its called sovernty law the government owns what beneath your feet no matter who you are . there are special cases were the owner owns what lies beneath the ground these go back to property titles taken out over a centuary ago . the mining grab in qld brought most of these types of title up without the owners being aware of there legal rights, had they been aware it would have cost the mining companies dearly to get these properties. you people need to get a grip you cannot csg mine on working ag properties its not practical . i have watched many forums on this issue and no mining exec could state there was no risk the reason why they dont no straight from their own mouths having relied on aquifers all my life its not worth the risk
truth fairy
28 Dec 11 at 8:36 pm
Good reasons to oppose ‘wind power’ and the NBN.
C.L.
28 Dec 11 at 8:52 pm
Truth Fairy, Fill the Cup, Greens, Lock the Gate Alliance (i.e. Drew Hutton & co.), Friends of the Earth and every other stone-ageist who have no grasp on reality need our HELP. These militant environmentalists hate CSG for no other reason than it is a fossil-fuel source of energy produced by mother earth. If concerns regarding landholder’s rights or proximity to urban areas did not help in this quest to abolish all fossil fuels then they wouldn’t care one iota about these concerns. They don’t care that renewable energy can’t provide the base load power required to sustain increasing global energy needs. They live in such a distorted reality that they seriously believe intermittent wind, sunshine etc can currently meet our energy needs. They don’t say how it can exactly, they just say it can. So why don’t these muppets take some actions now. Give up your fossil fuel cars and cut the gas & electricity to your homes. In fact, given up everything ever invented by engineers. Goodness knows that if your so-called ideas were taken seriously over 100+ years ago then the industrial revolution would never have happened.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 12:18 am
Wow, this page is a classic example of pro-CSG campaigners. I’ll keep pointing people (especially farmers) that sit on the fence to this page so they can see how rabid and out-of-touch the pro-CSG lobby really is… and you guys say Lock The Gate is “stone-ageist” etc. Take a real look, not only at the REAL issues here, but at your conservative rural base that is at the front line of our fight. The only thing that farmers are stupid about is voting for the Nats (hence the COALition) who have let them down in a huge way.
Thanks, you’re making my job in LTGA much easier, thanks Alan for starting the blind rant.
I’m not anti-mining, I’m anti-inappropriate mining and we don’t need CSG at all at this stage. 100 years time, maybe but by then we’ll find a way to get it safely. I didn’t choose to fight this and I have (or did have) much better things to do with my time than this.
If this (and coal) were about base-load power, we wouldn’t be setting up these huge export facilities.
It’s about profit for the companies. And don’t start with the state royalty crap. 0% for 5 years then ramping up from 5 to 10% by the 10th year. The vast majority of the gas goes out with no or discounted royalties.
It IS about water and it IS about land-use conflict.
I’ll bet everything that not one of the pro-CSG commentors above actually works the land for a living… definitely not in a targeted area. Very easy to rant from a safe distance. Read the damn Act at least. But no… liberal bleating is all we get.
By the way… we’re winning, which is why this article was written and why you’re all bleating about it
You can’t buy a social license – not for any price.
Peter Firminger
Lock The Gate Alliance
Twitter: @LockTheGate #csg #coalseamgas #lockthegate (go on… follow and learn
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 1:26 am
Firmfinger.
You’re just a nimby bullshit artist. There’s no one here campaigning or lobbying for CSG. I for instance believe it’s a great way to access cheap and abundant energy to fuel our civilization.
You’re just the typical nimby prick we see far too much of in this country.
“Take a real look, not only at the REAL issues here, but at your conservative rural base that is at the front line of our fight.”
Not my base, you appalling dickhead. I just call it as I see it.
“The only thing that farmers are stupid about is voting for the Nats (hence the COALition) who have let them down in a huge way.”
Ya think they ought to be voting for the greenslime buckets and the ALP that fucked up the live trade in a day then, do you? As I said you are an appalling dickhead.
“Thanks, you’re making my job in LTGA much easier, thanks Alan for starting the blind rant.”
Lol. Yea, like you’re rally thankful for a rational discussion.
“I’m not anti-mining, I’m anti-inappropriate mining and we don’t need CSG at all at this stage.”
Look, you deadbeat, you are anti-mining and only the market ought to decide if we need or don’t need CSG. This is done through price and reliable supply of energy. Not you, you fascist fool, thinking you know better.
“100 years time, maybe but by then we’ll find a way to get it safely.”
Yea… like you’d know what’s safe and isn’t if it dropped on your head.
“I didn’t choose to fight this and I have (or did have) much better things to do with my time than this.”
Oh please spare us the altruism. You’re just greesnhirt nimby with pretensions. Don’t offend us with comments like that one, you nimrod.
“If this (and coal) were about base-load power, we wouldn’t be setting up these huge export facilities.”
So what. It’s baseload for other countries, you dickwad. The rest of the world needs energy too.
“It’s about profit for the companies.”
Of course it is, just like its about profit for you with farming, you duplicitous fuckknuckle. No different.
“And don’t start with the state royalty crap. 0% for 5 years then ramping up from 5 to 10% by the 10th year. The vast majority of the gas goes out with no or discounted royalties.”
Bullshit.
“It IS about water and it IS about land-use conflict.”
Yea right.
“I’ll bet everything that not one of the pro-CSG commentors above actually works the land for a living… definitely not in a targeted area. Very easy to rant from a safe distance. Read the damn Act at least. But no… liberal bleating is all we get.”
Oh please fuck off. We don”t have to be there to support it, you eggnog. We are perfectly in our rights to express opinion just like you are with pretensions of altruism and futuristic nous. But we’re not dishonest.
“By the way… we’re winning, which is why this article was written and why you’re all bleating about it
You can’t buy a social license – not for any price.”
You’re winning what you loser? Forcing firms away from developing resources. You clown, Firmfinger, you have no fucking idea of the damage you’re doing to the country.
You know what Firmfinger. You sicken me.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 1:48 am
Read the Act. Facts are facts… you don’t even know which act I speak of do you JC (notably without a real name you fracking coward)?
I’m doing damage to the country? Powerful, then, I must be
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 1:58 am
No I’m not a coward, Firmfinger. I will choose under what name I post comments here, not you, you fascist arsehole.
What’s da Act have to do with the fact that you’re a Luddite nimby turd telling people when we will need CSG, you dickhead. (100 years or so when it safe). Who gave you the futurist cap to determine when we need CSG rather than price and supply dictating potential exploitation of reserves?
Da Act has nothing with them facts, Firmfinger.
I fully understand the score here. Most probably you’re a shitty farmer who has never made any zac and you’re using this as a potential one way ticket to get to Canberra and start sucking on the taxpayer teat.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:17 am
“I’m doing damage to the country? Powerful, then, I must be”
You’re an idiot, so you by yourself would be unable to damage the country. However there are lots of asshat lunatic greenslimers around and collectively you will do damage.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:18 am
Here’s Firmfinger’s pic collection.
This one is of well known stalinist and soviet money bags Lee Rhiannon.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wollombi/5101381611/?q=peter%20firminger
Who the hell is Firmfinger kidding. The so-called friend of the farmer. lol.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:26 am
Firmfinger can’t seem to get enough of his hero, old soviet money bags Rhiannon.
Here’s a another shot of her. His hero. Lol
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wollombi/5101972290/in/photostream/
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:33 am
What he said… keep going JC – great stuff for us.
At least you know exactly who I am and where I live.
I don’t need to hide behind anonymity… I’m just right
(annoying isn’t it, coward?)
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 2:38 am
“Peter hosted, administered and developed Australian Museum Online for a number of years. He also manages a range of client sites such as Planet Ark, Recycling Near You, National Tree Day”
Hey Firmfinger, would you mind explaining exactly what is National Tree Day. hahahahahhahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah
Aren’t you the least embarrassed. And what the fuck is planet Ark, you green nimbus.
you’re a joke, just another green zombie. A pathetic excuse.
(Lol National tree day)
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:48 am
“I’ll keep pointing people (especially farmers) that sit on the fence to this page so they can see how rabid and out-of-touch the pro-CSG lobby really is… and you guys say Lock The Gate is “stone-ageist” etc. ”
If in fact there are any farmers there, be wary of this green zombie posing as your friend as he’s not. He seems to be just another green slime bucket lying to you about what he represents. Anyone taking pics of Lee Rhiannon is immediately suspect.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:56 am
My work here is done – Alan has done us a great favour in exposing ‘Da’ true “@WeWantCSG” audience – anonymous and spelling-challenged
Goodnight, sweet nameless Prince(ss)
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 3:19 am
Another Hi-Allanist bites the dust. What on earth do you think you are doing hanging out with Stalinists and borderline anti-semites, Peter? How is that good for the environment?
Fisky
29 Dec 11 at 3:22 am
I don’t even understand what you wrote Fisky (if that’s your real name).
I don’t hang out with Lee Rhiannon – I took some photos at a rally – sue me!
I have let my Greens membership lapse because of two issues. Israel and Gay Marriage – niether of which are my problem. If you love someone – marry them – who am I (or any politician) to argue! As for the middle-east – I simply do not care. Not my table.
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 3:36 am
“I have let my Greens membership lapse because of two issues. Israel and Gay Marriage – niether of which are my problem. If you love someone – marry them – who am I (or any politician) to argue! As for the middle-east – I simply do not care. Not my table.”
Right. You quit the Greens because of their policies on Israel and gay marriage, even though you don’t care about these issues at all. Peter, that doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense.
Fisky
29 Dec 11 at 4:16 am
oh this is too funny!
My understanding of anti CSG is that there is not enough EIS done. We are NOT anti-mining, we are anti-ignorance. Do the studies, supply the data…… in Vic, mining companies are ONLY obligated to pay $10,000 for environmental rehabilitation. That figure is insulting and ludicrous…….
Living in the Otways, we successfully stopped CSG from our area. Why? Because there is a long history of over-allocation of aquifer water to Barwon Water as it is. Our Aquifers are struggling with the human demand. Our creeks are testing highly acid sulphate NOW without the demands of CSG industry. I am happy to link you to the pics of degradation if you like. Our land (read farming/agriculture) is showing signs of degredation due to over-consumption of water from aquifers. If we added csg and their huge demands on ground water (realistically, the ground water is extracted as part of the process ~ but no EIS is done to show yay or nay, nor how the waste “moisture” is disposed of)…… so UNTIL UNTIL the EIS is done (by an independent body) we will continue to say no to csg.
The fight for the integrity of the Otway Water and ecosystems by LAWROC has been on for near on 10 year….. csg is just the latest adversity. CSG is not that special, the land is that special.
Come visit, I take you to visit the platypus, the areas that are untouched……. Dinosaur footprints on the coast, species that are endangered, tree ferns that are over 100 year old. We are not so “green” that we do not embrace logging. Logging plantation (not old growth) is really a cool idea. Locals who have acreage can lease out their land to timber companies who plant and harvest plantation timber. The landholder wins, the timber company wins, and the National Park wins as old growth is no longer harvested. THIS is what it means to be green in my area….. to have an acceptable alternative. BUT put my water, my neighbour’s livelihood (he is a dairy farmer) in doubt and I will fight you every step of the way……
And I will defend those areas until you can scientifically prove that your techonology/extraction methods will not harm them.
Until then, consider me a “left wing greenie nut-case” I don’t care….. your labels do not affect the ecosystem that I am duty-bound to protect.
karen
29 Dec 11 at 5:01 am
CSG production has been occurring in Queensland for the past 16 years. Most of the gas currently being consumed in SE Qld is CSG. Where is the environmental catastrophe so far? Please point to the farms where grazing or cropping has had to stop because of CSG. There aren’t any. The average producing CSG well takes up the space of a fraction of a basketball court and these are spaced about every kilometre. Anyone who is prepared to fight to stop gas production in east Aus should have a think about how they plan to run the lights in their house or make their dinner or power their ipad.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 8:39 am
Karen – the Santos EIS for their project weighed 63 kg and was thousands of pages. Hundreds of individuals, consultants and companies contributed to it, and then the Queensland State Govt put hundreds of conditions on the project and then the Federal Govt put further conditions on the project. The EIS took nearly two years to put together and cost millions. Then the Greens (actually the communists) say its an unregulated industry. The Greens will turn on the farming community, as soon as it suits them.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 8:46 am
The Green took over the farming lobby years ago.
Check out Peter above who makes out like he’s a “salt of the earth” farmer type then we quickly find out thanks to JC that he’s actually a (very) Green Activist who hangs around with Greens senators and spends his time running nutty Green schemes undoubtedly hoping to be funded by the taxpayer.
That’s the face of the Anti CSG movement – pretend farmers bank rolled by big environmentalism. Real farmers (like all of my relatives) just want to have a way to profit off the use of their land, give them that and they’ll be pro-CSG all the way.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 9:10 am
So many paid posters on this subject. Paid by CSG companies and/or their PR Firms. JC.. Please die… Today.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 9:26 am
It’s a triangle thing, don’t know why.
http://www.dreamstime.com/communism-symbol-hammer-and-sickle-thumb14216235.jpg
and
http://lockthegate.org.au/images/public/image-1497-ltg-tri11.png
and
http://greensmps.org.au/files/imagecache/preview/images/thegreens%20PMS375%20CMYK%20JPEG.jpg
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 9:37 am
LOL.. just read your article Alan.. Perhaps you should spell your name “moron”. Sigh…
Face it, the days of quietly moving under the radar are over for the resources sector. There would be no opposition to CSG if the companies proposing these projects could prove beyond reasonable doubt that their activities will not cause damage to aquifers, agricultural productivity or biodiversity, instead of lying, misrepresenting and doing the dodgy. These companies do not have a social licence to operate and are now reaping the rewards (or not) for the way they have engaged with the community. Strangely enough, the value placed on life for many of us far exceed the value of the dollar, in your support for this industry, you are most definitely in the minority.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 9:38 am
Rob in Margs said
“”"” JC.. Please die… Today.”"”"
And then,
“”"Strangely enough, the value placed on life for many of us…….”
fuck off liar.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 9:50 am
Do you realise how utterly stupid and puerile you sound saying things like that? How old are you? Please god don’t let you be a uni student.
Can someone tell what greens activist site has linked to this for us to be inundated with these dime a dozen, all sound the same (references to “social license” have increased by 900% today) shills?
You do realise that all states have to do is give farmers a cut of the royalties and then it’s game over don’t you?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:06 am
“So many paid posters on this subject. Paid by CSG companies and/or their PR Firms. JC.. Please die… Today.”
No I won’t Rob. In fact I will be living a long long time much to your annoyance you scum bag. Lol
Moderator, please don’t remove that comment as I want people to know just what type of human sludge we’re dealing with here.
What we’ve discovered pretty quickly is that this Lock the Gate racket is pretty much a Greens fascist Party Astro turf operation.
Peter (Freddie) Firmfinger is not a a salt of the earth farmer type but a lunatic fascist Geeen activist posing as one.
I presume you’re also connected to that lying sack of turd, Rob.
They were never under the radar, you lying sack of shit. They have operated fairly for the most part and helped raise our standard of living. It’s you and your fascist Green friends whose days are numbered because people get to know what lying, Luddite, misanthropic creeps you are.
You lying treacherous dishonest sack of shit. The science is settled on this one. CSG offers a great new source of energy that we will exploit despite your protestations. Suck it up, you pond scum.
And there is no one here being paid to say anything, you red nosed fucking clown. People here are simply rational human beings.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:07 am
Lol. That’s where it’s at basically and it’s not too far away either.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:12 am
WTF is a social license anyways?
Let me guess, these green fascist activist dickheads actually think people will ask their approval before we do things like mine or extract gas?
Lol. What a bunch of fucking clowns.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:14 am
Wondful isn’t it. CSG companies can say with 100% certainty that their actions will not cause harm because they are well, adults who are accountable for their actions.
Greenies, NIMBYs and plain old Luddites can get away with any sort of fear morning they like, because they are on the side of angels, and of course, the ends justify the means.
Compulsory disclaimer for discussions such as this: I have no interests, financial or social in the CSG industry. I do however have many,many ties in rural industries.
A lot of the grief that is going on is because of the differences in state jurisdictions. Qld actually has done a pretty good job of strengthening landholder rights, making sure CSG water is handled appropriately, and that the CSG industry will be responsible for any mishaps etc. NSW on the other hand was asleep at the wheel and is about four years behind Qld on this matter.
CSG will be hard to operate on a laser leveled irrigation block (eg cotton). If a CSG company wants to place a well on such a block, it will be difficult to do so, including the laying of pipelines underground etc without altering water flow in ways undesirable for cotton production. But it is possible to keep wells at the corners of such blocks to minimize interference, and by legislation, any loss in income for the landholder must be compensated for.
For many landholders, it is the mere presence of the cofactors that they find most offensive. They feel violated. They might have no trouble with a DPI person wandering onto their property, but a CSG contractor is another story. A lot of the grief has been friction developed via poor behaviour by contractors, which thankfully is in decline as the CSG producers learn appropriate ways of developing relationships with the landed gentry.
I am aware of landholders who have very good land access agreements. Some are so good the landholder doesn’t really need to get out of bed in the morning. They won’t live like that of course as they are farmers where the meaning of life is to get up and work hard. But a good access agreement will certainly take the edge of a highly variable income, as the compensation is guaranteed every year, unlike rainfall. And a proper agreement could even increase land values because of the guaranteed income stream of the agreement. At present, the massive uncertainty of change is limiting this. But imagine if you will, an agreement with say 30 wells and associated infrastructure. At $5000 pa from each well that is $150 grand cash every year before any agriculture is conducted. And I would expect a laser leveled irrigation lock to get a lot more per well than that.
Entropy
29 Dec 11 at 10:18 am
Bloody iPad
Entropy
29 Dec 11 at 10:20 am
Great explanation, Ent.
I’m sue it will work out in the end where both the farmers and the firms find a way to reach accommodation in a mutually rewarding way.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:23 am
Forgot your pills today JC? I just remembered what site this blog is on. Oh well, thankfully your own ranting is limited to those others that actually believe your shit.. lying sack of or otherwise. Twostix, it was on a lock the gate distribution. Perhaps so the rest of us can have a good laugh and perhaps get an idea of how rabid you people actually are. Sorry for interrupting your little cesspool.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 10:23 am
“Greenies, NIMBYs and plain old Luddites can get away with any sort of fear mongering they like, because they are on the side of angels, and of course, the ends justify the means.”
basically pond scum who ought to have the crap sued out of them for lying.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:24 am
His resume reads like a an Inner City Greenie with lots of “chair positions” on various arts and “action groups” with a couple of decades in the ABC and APS:
Vice-Chair
Wollombi Valley Against Gas Extraction Inc
Nonprofit; 1-10 employees; Political Organization industry
June 2008 – Present (3 years 7 months)
Committee Member
Valley Artists
Nonprofit; 1-10 employees; Performing Arts industry
January 2008 – Present (4 years)
Public Officer
Greater Wollombi Communities Alliance Inc
Nonprofit; 1-10 employees; Civic & Social Organization industry
May 2007 – Present (4 years 8 months)
Public Officer and Treasurer
Web Industry Proffessionals Association Incorporated
September 2006 – Present (5 years 4 months)
Owner
Webboy.net (Sole Proprietorship)
March 1998 – Present (13 years 10 months)
Committee Member
Wollombi Valley Arts Council Inc
March 2009 – March 2010 (1 year 1 month)
Co-Chair
Web Standards Group
2003 – 2007 (4 years)
Director
Web Essentials Pty Ltd
January 2004 – June 2006 (2 years 6 months)
Web Manager
Australian Museum
Government Agency; 201-500 employees; Museums and Institutions industry
June 1997 – July 2000 (3 years 2 months)
Production Director
ABC Radio (2BL 702)
June 1992 – June 1997 (5 years 1 month)
I’d be Vice-Chair
Wollombi Valley Against Gas Extraction Inc
Nonprofit; 1-10 employees; Political Organization industry
June 2008 – Present (3 years 7 months)
Committee Member
Valley Artists
Nonprofit; 1-10 employees; Performing Arts industry
January 2008 – Present (4 years)
Public Officer
Greater Wollombi Communities Alliance Inc
Nonprofit; 1-10 employees; Civic & Social Organization industry
May 2007 – Present (4 years 8 months)
Public Officer and Treasurer
Web Industry Proffessionals Association Incorporated
September 2006 – Present (5 years 4 months)
Owner
Webboy.net (Sole Proprietorship)
March 1998 – Present (13 years 10 months)
Committee Member
Wollombi Valley Arts Council Inc
March 2009 – March 2010 (1 year 1 month)
Co-Chair
Web Standards Group
2003 – 2007 (4 years)
Director
Web Essentials Pty Ltd
January 2004 – June 2006 (2 years 6 months)
Web Manager
Australian Museum
Government Agency; 201-500 employees; Museums and Institutions industry
June 1997 – July 2000 (3 years 2 months)
Production Director
ABC Radio (2BL 702)
June 1992 – June 1997 (5 years 1 month)
Real salt of the earth farmer that one.
And they invade this forum then accuse us of being paid shills.
*eyeroll*
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:28 am
Lol.. Don’t take pills Rob. Are you a salt of the earth farmer type like Freddie Firmfinger? hahahahaha
You deceitful lying clowns.
Lots of people read the site. You’re here don’t forget, Rob (the salt of the earth farmer)
You taking pics of Soviet money bags Lee Rhiannon like Freddie Firmfinger, Rob? hahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha
You AstroTurf clowns make me laugh.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:28 am
No JC, I am just having a laugh at your expense. It’s a kind of a morbid fascination to see what you will spout next.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 10:31 am
Well he might be one of those ferals on the blocks north of Tara, JC. To be fair, they moved there to get away from Civilisation. Little did they know that Civilisation would find them.
Entropy
29 Dec 11 at 10:31 am
Not that QGC is anything like David Livingstone, mind you.
Entropy
29 Dec 11 at 10:32 am
hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahaha
Twostix.
That’s a typical resume that any salt of the earth farmer would have.
Farmer Freddie Firmfinger once grew a couple of cabbages in his back yard.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:32 am
Umm Entropy, i am actually a business owner, you know.. capitalist.. I just see this from a different perspective and i would personally like to see our decendents be able to drink clean water and eat clean food.. radical concept for some here i know, Intergenerational Equity and all
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 10:33 am
We’re rabid? Two posts ago you were telling JC to “go and die”.
You’re not laughing, you’re losing. You lost Queensland (under Labor no less!) and you’ll soon lose NSW.
Poor babies, I’m sure those CSG wells will spoil the view from your delightfully sustainable 1 acre block complete with pet cow outside Scone.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:35 am
Wrong again Twostix, I’m on the West Coast. As far as I can see, it is the CSG industry that is losing the public perception battle.. that pesky little concept of social licence that confuses JC so much
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 10:37 am
“We’re rabid? Two posts ago you were telling JC to “go and die”.”
You’re using JC as an example of civil politeness who should be spared from verbal abuse?
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 10:38 am
just for the record bitches! i am not a member of any political group or party . The mining companies have stated themselves they cant predict the impact of csg on the environment because they dont know . if you cant be concerned about the environment maybe you care about the economy . guess what every other sector is suffering mining only employs 1.5 %of the population according to last years gov stats accounts for 8.4%of the economy what the frack do think the rest of the country do for a living and what do you think the rest of the economy revolves around .Talk about the minority miners are it . QLD has had small scale csg up until now, you cant compare yesterday to today 40 thousand csg wells in our prime ag regions ridiculous . the csg is not for domestic use its going overseas and when these bastard pack up and leave what will be left .any government participating in this practice should be tried for treason . be fracked if i’ll let my home be fracked to fuel china . you think the mining giants are dial china for take out when we cant feed ourselves
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:39 am
LOL! All the “capitalists” I know use phrases like “social license” and “intergenerational equity”.
Your ridiculous luvvie buzzwords give you lot away everytime, you can’t even pretend not to be a greenie leftist luvvies, you literally have no idea how normal people speak.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:39 am
Interesting choice of words there twostix “lost queensland and soon lose nsw”. Is this an actual concession that by approving CSG production, we “lose” the areas subject to this technology? Perhaps is an argument for keeping it out of aquifers, agricultural land and conservation areas?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 10:40 am
truth fairy:
Press Enter occasionally.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:42 am
twostix, it is very clear that you have not read any Environmental Protection Legislation. You will find all those terms clearly defined by law. The good operators in the resources sector know and use this terminology, it is only the cowboy operators that cause all the problems that have no understanding of these terms
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 10:45 am
Dick Smith is the most well known business owner who is a hypocritical loons. That doesn’t impress. It’s what you say that counts, you dickhead.
Yea, from a Green Fascist luddite perspective. No surprise there either.
Get the harp and wheel out the kids, Rob’s going to perform a folk song for us.
The only equity that’s required is to ensure we raise living standards by accumulating knowledge and wealth so as to leave to later generations. This means exploiting resources when the price suggests they are required.
Everything else you talk about is pure unadulterated, fascist drivel.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:46 am
Er no, its obviously a statement that the big multi billion dollar Green Lobby and it’s little shills and granoli eating shock troops lost the fight to prevent the extraction of cheap fuel from the ground in QLD when even Labor saw through the ridiculousness.
But you keep making things up, great story telling, do keep it up.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:47 am
Fairy
That rant is disturbingly puerile in a mentally disturbed sort of way.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:48 am
People who think the Greens are living on this planet might like to check out their full range of policies. Not a pretty sight. http://www.the-rathouse.com/2011/The-Greens.html
Rafe
29 Dec 11 at 10:50 am
Good to see the Greenies join the Alan Jones army.
C.L.
29 Dec 11 at 10:52 am
What I find the most amusing and the most telling about JC and Twostix responses is that it is full of insults, slurs and unfounded assumptions as to the character and intent of people who have a different opinion to you. Is that what can be genuinely expected from pro CSG activists?
Before you go on about my commend about JC dying, let me explain more fully. My dad always told me that if you don’t shit, you die and JC is so full of it he mustn’t have had a decent crap for years.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 10:53 am
“People who think the Greens are living on this planet might like to check out their full range of policies. Not a pretty sight.”
Quotes of the actual policies almost non-existent, but lots of strawmen and slippery-slope stuff.
Lots of “they would”, “they may”, and “one wonders if”, without any sort of evidence from the Greens’ policies or actions to back any of it up.
I’m beginning to see why Rafe takes the Oregon Petition seriously. Assumptions and ideological outrage are data, apparently.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 10:58 am
Rob
You seem be wishing death on people that disagree with you.
Do your ex-wife and kids have a protection order against you perhaps?
Wishing death on someone you’ve never met because s/he thinks you’re a fruit cake suggests you’re easily prone to violent temper tantrums.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:59 am
I say, pay the land holder a fair price, continue monitoring environmental effects ( is the web site up yet?) and let the Australian public buy it at somewhere around the price the Chinese pay.
Once the public can “swap n go” a BBQ gas bottle for under $10, rather than over $35, they will be delighted.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 10:59 am
No Twostix, The QLD government, who is broke, saw a chance to make some quick money, no doubt having “had it’s ass kicked” by Clive Palmer, BEFORE we were able to determine the long term impacts on important resources, i.e. agricultural land and water. NSW, who is also broke has been tempted to follow. Thankfully the general public has risen to the challenge of doing what the government should have in the first place, Fully assess and understand the implications BEFORE giving approvals. And no the science is no way settled, however the science so far is leaning very strongly towards the Precautionary Principle, another EP Act term that may confuse. Been keeping up with developments in America where CSG is directly linked to pollution and contamination of water supplies?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 10:59 am
No JC, not truly wishing your death, just saddened that you still breath air
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 11:01 am
Holy shit you people have some balls, truly.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 11:03 am
There’s no stopping Rob. I wonder how many dolls with pins sticking he has hidden around the shack.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:04 am
oops ….sticking out..
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:05 am
You’re such a liar.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 11:05 am
Rob, Google up a bunch of JC’s comments.
Throw in any violent or abusive term you like, and he’s probably shouted it at someone on Catallaxy. He’s particularly fond of challenging people to a fight when he begins to lose an argument, which is often.
In fact, Sinclair Davidson has started a campaign of censorship here precisely because he’s embarrassed by JC’s comments and won’t allow them to be quoted.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 11:06 am
Sancho – I have no problem with you attributing JCs comments to JC. But you chose to attribute them to other people.
Sinclair Davidson
29 Dec 11 at 11:08 am
Sanchez the pool cleaner has joined the melee. This will be interesting.
I’m guessing Sanchez is in favor of CSG extraction.
Did i guess right?
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:08 am
Lovely job of quoting there Twostix, perhaps it has not occured to you that if the same was listed from the contributions of yourself and JC, it would take up a lot more webspace than the content is worth.
Don’t worry about the dolls JC, i leave karma to deal with that.. oh No! Believes in Karma! must be a looney lefty luddite fascist socialist green slime tree hugging hippy card carrying communist!
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 11:09 am
Oh OK then! So when the democratically elected government of a state acts *against* your wish it’s only doing so because it’s broke, not because it’s the will of the people.
How convenient, that democracy is only useful when the people agree with you.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 11:11 am
jc go and have a lie down and a bex i think you need it .
you obviously are not a capitalist in the manufacturing sector as you would be singing a different tune. Put a decent argument on the table other than trying to be the biggest bully on the block . how about santos discharging waste water in to the bauhinia creek system which feeds into the murrey darling basin in the water was cyanide benzine carbon dioxide just to name a few . santos is one of the largest miners in the country if they cant get it right who can. id love to come to your home and piss cyanide in your water system
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 11:11 am
Speaking of karma…
ahahahahahahahaha. Is this the latest greenie facist argument against CSG? How simply childish.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 11:13 am
So Twostix, are you denying that QLD is about $80 billion in debt? Did the QLD government ask its population if it wanted a CSG industry? how about all the people who live in QLD that are uniting to stop this activity? I suppose in your world their opinions don’t count either? I put forward that if a referendum was held in QLD, the CSG industry would be shown the door.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 11:15 am
“Sanchez the pool cleaner has joined the melee. This will be interesting.”
It would be nice. All my comments are delayed while the Knight of the Red Pen decides what counts as free speech, and what’s too discomforting to be published on a “libertarian” website.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 11:15 am
Gab… is that you JC?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 11:16 am
List all of my insults and slurs.
Do it now.
You came here told someone to go and die, called everyone paid shills called the original author a “moron” then had the audacity to cry about being taken to task for it.
Worst of all it’s you who pretend not to be a tax eating greenie activist while using mealy mouthed leftie buzzword phrases such as “social license” and “intergenerational equity”. You’re probably a Uni student, public servant or an actual paid shill for some “action committee” yourself.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 11:17 am
Untrue. You’re lying Sanchez. I don’t use the C word for instance, although it very much applies to you in spades.
You’re lying Sanchez. I just once suggested a boxing match with Monty (monster) that would be managed in a very professional way using a referee. Boxing is not fighting, you low end fool. Gentlemen box. Low end pond scum like you fight.
I don’t think Sinc gives a toss about my comments Sanchez.
You’re just hurt and upset because you were thrown off the site for being an idiot and like a typical leftwing beta male have continued to whine about it to the point of tears.
You’re also upset that you’re referred to leftwing green fascist.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:18 am
No.
Just for you “Ron in Margs” (what does that even mean? Is Margs your partner or a place?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfyaaLC8G_k
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 11:20 am
Rob, is that you or a pinned doll in your likeness.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:21 am
Sorry for lumping you in with JC Twostix, i admit no one deserves that dishonour. But i am not that obsessed to feel compelled to trawl through pages of dribble. Anyway, it’s been fun, my condolences to those that have to read this blog. Keep up the good work truth fairy, your endurance in the face of the rants on this page is almost saintlike.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 11:23 am
Bailing so soon, Rob in Margs? Awww, but you haven’t made your point yet.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 11:24 am
Why would they? Do they ask the public if they want a construction industry, do they ask if they want a fishing industry?
That would have to be the silliest thing i’ve read today (amongst some stiff competition too)
You must be kidding. How about if we had a referendum on ‘would you like to work in a growth industry or sit on the dole’. The ecoharpie industry would be shown the door
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 11:25 am
HAhahaaha Greenie fascists: “We don’t care about no stinking house of representatives: we’ve got our well funded Granoli eating shock troops.”
Did Gillard ask Australia if it wants a Carbon Tax?
LOL! The LNP are going to be chosen by the people next year then QLD will be the CSG capital of Australia.
Or do you think the Greens are going to win the QLD election on their oh-so popular anti-csg, anti farming, anti everything platform?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 11:25 am
No Gab, i recognise a futile activity when i see it. Live long and prosper and a happy new year, everyone except JC whom, according to my pins, will stop breathing today, much to everyones relief,
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 11:27 am
The Fairy
More threats. Is there an end to this? Lol
This is hysterical. There is Sanchez the pool cleaner still crying because he was thrown off the site for being an idiot. Freddie Firmfinger the salt of the earth farmer than once grew two cabbages in a small plot in his back yard, Rob who seems to practice some form of weird voodoo and Fairy who wants to poison my water.
This is the face of the modern ‘vironmental left.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:27 am
Remember “Rob in Msrgs”, karma is a two-way street
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 11:29 am
“You’re lying Sanchez. I just once suggested a boxing match with Monty (monster) that would be managed in a very professional way using a referee. Boxing is not fighting, you low end fool. Gentlemen box.”
Ahem:
“Anyways, dude I’ve organized the ring in 6 weeks time. It’s going to be a Saturday night and the bout will go for 6 rounds of 5 minutes per turn…yes and there’s a cage around the ring to enure “no one” leaves before the allotted time…So I booked it okay…Let me know if you have the proper UFC attire as you want to look the part. I’ve already bought a pair of satin shorts with my own logo.”
Gentlemen also know the difference between boxing and MMA. Either you’re no gentleman, JC, or have no idea what you’re talking about.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 11:29 am
Gab, Margs would be Margaret River.
tbh
29 Dec 11 at 11:29 am
Oh, thanks, TBH.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 11:30 am
That’s alright Gab, blessings be upon thee, hopefully that helps a little
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 11:31 am
“you were thrown off the site for being an idiot and like a typical leftwing beta male have continued to whine about it to the point of tears.”
Oh? Exactly what did I do?
Also: internet tough guy projects masculinity fears. News at eleven.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 11:31 am
It’s just a shame you had to throw a little tanty, Rob in Margs. You greenies have no argument other than stamping your foot and wishing someone dead. That’s really quite nasty. Watch out for karma as whatever you put out comes back seven-fold to you.
Good luck.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 11:34 am
twostix
“”"LOL! The LNP are going to be chosen by the people next year then QLD will be the CSG capital of Australia.”"”
Don’t write off Katter as an influential player on this issue.
Just sayin.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 11:36 am
lol.. ok.. I must admit this morbidly fascinating but i must go have a shower using my solar hot water system in my solar powered house using water from my water tanks to recycle it in my grey water system to water my garden. Good luck to you to Gabs. signing off from yes.. Margaret River.. BTW did you know that we have effectively prevented a coal mine in our region and are now moving towards protective legislation in our region to keep out CGS mining out of our aquifers? no? oh well…
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 11:38 am
i would really like to know what happened to all the money from QLD last mining boom, it didnt go on health education roads ect . how about santos gas explosion 40 million to bring under control lucky it was in the middle of the desert gee those engineers are really cleaver I think from recall poor construction was the reason . sorry iam off topic just so you feel at home i ll add a little profanity for the bitches of capitalist whores
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 11:39 am
To Peter Firminger from Lock the Gate – the “profits” that you speak about go into YOUR superannuation fund, to help fund YOUR retirement. These “profits” also generate thousands of jobs in Queensland and help young adults in rural areas decide if they want to stay in the town they grew up in (because now there is a growing economy) rather than having to move to a coastal city looking for work. If our country wants to import Sony flat screen TVs, Toyotas and ipads, then we need to export something to pay for that – very basic economics.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 11:40 am
You should get down on your knees and thank me for the subsidies which enable you to have those solar showers.
You should move to North Korea.The Greenies’ Nirvana. Few lights there, only semi operating coal mines you see. The rest of us prefer to have electricity and live in the light. Don’t forget to recharge your iPhone, iPad and other modern day gadgets, made possible through mining.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 11:43 am
Peter J: I’m self employed – it’s not going to my super
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 11:45 am
It’s amazing that all these anti-CSG individuals don’t deny the fact that they are anti-fossil fuels. Tell the truth and let people see you for what you are. You have no idea. You hope that the smoke from your crack pipe will fuel this country.
BTW, I have no associtation with any CSG company. The only difference is that I am smart enough to understand the crap that is expouted from you ill-informed mouths.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 11:51 am
oh Gab, you have now fully revealed yourself as JC, anyone else notice how quiet JC got when Gab got on. Nice way to engage in debate matey. Even the way you respond to comments is identical. oh well, can’t really expect much from such limited intellect I suppose.
Hope you have fun choking and ranting on that one while i’m off to earn an income that doesn’t require pollution of aquifers or populations.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 11:59 am
dex you obviously have not been following the news, mining is destroying every other sector of our economy. driving up the dollar theres more to life than flat screen tvs . dont know who peter is but he obviously cares about his community and area more than any multinational mining company would do . i know who id rather live next to . what rock have you people been hiding under
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 11:59 am
The Alan Jones Army invades the Cat!
C.L.
29 Dec 11 at 12:00 pm
Oh dear. Poor Rob in Margs, the paranoia is strong in you. It would neve3r occur to you that JC is probably just engaged in 3D activities? Ooooh, no! It must be that becuase JC has “gone quite” and I’ve appeared then I must be JC!
Your apparent lack of logic and rational thought outs you as a greenie, Rob in Margs.
Peace be upon you. And if not, then seek medication. Quickly.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 12:02 pm
oh Gab, you have now fully revealed yourself as JC, anyone else notice how quiet JC got when Gab got on.
You’re an idiot.
annomer
29 Dec 11 at 12:07 pm
Yes you do you liar, up above one of you clowns said you’re all here because of a “Lock the Gate” link.
How quickly you all unravel from being “salt of the earth normal people” to revealing your barking Green dogma hate about evil flat screen TV’s and your hypocritical hate of materialism and now it’s not just CSG you’re against, now you admit its mining as a whole.
Thanks for the honesty, it’s refreshing. Greenie neo-luddite activists who hate modern civilization opposing CSG simply because it’s another form of mining, nothing to do with CSG in particular.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 12:08 pm
Possibly the worst thread ever.
C.L.
29 Dec 11 at 12:09 pm
“Hope you have fun choking and ranting on that one while i’m off to earn an income that doesn’t require pollution of aquifers or populations.”
Walking to Centrelink?
Infidel Tiger
29 Dec 11 at 12:09 pm
“”" i’m off to earn an income that doesn’t require pollution of aquifers or populations.”"”
I’m guessing income from illegal(mind altering) substances, if there’s any left.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 12:13 pm
dont want to talk about the rest of the economy obviously is one of the issues that will turn into the elephant in the room Come on bitches put up a fight other than name calling warris creek coal mining closed for safety breaches frack those engineers are a smart lot. i could post all day about mining frack ups how do i know this i read the paper watch the news nothing airy fairy about it . same papers alan moron got his spray in
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 12:14 pm
Punctuation, bitch. Use it.
Infidel Tiger
29 Dec 11 at 12:16 pm
I am ok with anyone who opposes fossil fuels and mining as long as they go and live in a cave (or under a wood lean-to) and they don’t ride in cars, trains or planes and don’t use electricity. They should also not use machinery to harvest their food crops or the many natural gas based fertilisers that increase crop productivity. Hand back anything made from plastic (which comes from oil and gas) or steel (your eye glasses for example or the scalpel the surgeon uses to save your life).
Anyone who opposes fossil fuels or mining but wants to use the modern comforts of life, is either a hypocrite or just not real bright, as they don’t understand how much fossil fuels and mining give to our very high standard of living and our long life expectancy (80+ years).
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 12:18 pm
truth fairy, is that you alfred from Canada ?
Your style is familiar.
yours sincerely
jumpnmcar
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 12:25 pm
FTC – again you avoid the admission you are anti-fossil fuels. As I stated earlier on – why don’t you cut off any gas & electricity to your house, avoid ever using a car, and basically return yourself to the stone age. Oh, and don’t say you want electric cars because from what materials do you think they manufacture those batteries, or what electricity do they use to power those vehicles. That’s right. I would have hoped for anough intelligence that from all your “news” watching (oh, there’s a source of quality right there), that’s you’d understand the basics.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 12:26 pm
Just did a seach on Catallaxy files.. lol.. oh well, i suppose you all have to go somewhere. Love and flowers and hippies to you all, may your bunyips leave little presents in your superannuation accounts and unlimited growth forever!
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 12:28 pm
I thought it quite illuminating, I for one thought Lock The Gate really was a grass roots farmer’s group.
Then I found out it’s run by a hyperactive “Tree Change” ex inner sydney ABC / ALP Greenie activist web designer whose home business takes money from various Green groups and leftist “action committees”.
Peter do you let all your friends on Agmates who you really are? When they’re ranting on about evil climate change fraud and Labor and inner city greenies do you have to bite your tongue hard?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 12:31 pm
Rob – while you are there give up that hot water system. That’s right buddy, it’s made of material that doesn’t just magically appear. You lot truly are hypocrites.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 12:31 pm
“oh well, i suppose you all have to go somewhere. ”
What are you talking about? This place is where free thought and reason flourish!
Next up: science all a communist lie; Enron and BP more trustworthy than democracy; bible a reliable guide to history and the natural world.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 12:34 pm
“Then I found out it’s run by a hyperactive “Tree Change” ex inner sydney ABC / ALP Greenie activist web designer whose home business takes money from various Green groups and leftist “action committees”.”
So who does the Libertarian Commission of Legitimacy approve for free speech and possession of opinions?
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 12:35 pm
Peter – Drew Hutton killed off any credibility that Lock the Gate had when he falsified submissions to the senate inquiry. It shows the desperation inside that organisation as most Qld farmers choose not to lock their gate – they see that gas exploration and production has virtually no impact on their business, they may actually get a decent passive income from gas production and they may also get a decent volume of treated CSG water to enhance their beef or crop productivity – have a look at the Mount Hope trial north of Roma where the grazier is getting about a 25 fold increase in his beef production due to the CSG water on top of the passive income from the gas production. Question – why didn’t that family lock the gate? Answer – because they could see real financial benefit to their farm in having the company produce gas. Lock the Gate has simply tried to scare the shit out of people, and most farmers/graziers are smarter than that and can work out for themselves what is in their own best interest. Feel free to lock your own gate, but allow people around you to make their own decisions based on real information and facts and not just a lot of scare mongering accusations with absolutely no basis.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 12:36 pm
“That’s right buddy, it’s made of material that doesn’t just magically appear. You lot truly are hypocrites.”
Good lord. Do strawmen come in size, because that’s a whopper.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 12:37 pm
and unlimited growth forever!
The only way we couldn’t have unlimited growth forever is if we all stopped thinking and being responsible in our behaviour. Ah, I see you’re leading by example.
annomer
29 Dec 11 at 12:37 pm
were actually discussing csg not all mining . how have we managed until now . maybe some facts will help you understand. gov stats mining employs 1.5 % of the work force, accounts for 8.4 % of the economy . what do you think the rest of australia does hug trees and collect welfare. far as the greens go ive never voted for them in my life but if that’s the only way to put the brakes on csg , i will. Be scared there are a lot of fed up people like me, first time in my life iv ever seen mainstream farmers greenies and indigenous groups, suburban urban dwellers all on the same page
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 12:37 pm
“have a look at the Mount Hope trial north of Roma where the grazier is getting about a 25 fold increase in his beef production due to the CSG water on top of the passive income from the gas production. ”
Do you have a link to the trial data, or is this something you heard somewhere?
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 12:38 pm
Did you believe the millennium bug was going to cause the crash of civilisation as well?
annomer
29 Dec 11 at 12:39 pm
Um no Dex. Everyone acknowledges the importance of mining and the resources it provides. The question being should mining be allowed anywhere and everywhere? Should activities that have a high probability of causing damage to our underground and surface waters, agricultural productivity and remnant biodiversity solely on the economic profit model be approved? There is more to life and things more necessary to life than CSG energy sources. Add to that the dramatic erosion of private property values, impacts on existing industries and detrimental effects extending into the foreseeable future. None of this furore would have occured if the companies pursuing these resources practiced a little bit of restraint and displayed some ethical, moral and environmental consideration before launching their speculative bids for economic gain.
Fighting off the Vasse Coal Project in Margaret River taught us a whole lot about this industry, first hand and sadly the majority of companies do not employ best practice, more accurately described as cowboys who have sullied the reputation of the industry in the eyes of communities.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 12:40 pm
A few things that might even up the score:
The gas companies paying the same royalties to freehold landowners as they pay to native title claimants;
Mining companies being subjected to the same land clearing restrictions as freehold landowners;
Mining companies acquiring land from farmers at the same rate they paid Tony Windsor.
Pickles
29 Dec 11 at 12:40 pm
oh and guys, have just posted throughout the NoCoalition! your website comment details, your audience has just increased by orders of magnitude.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 12:47 pm
Lie, lie, spin, backpedal, smear, slur, lie.
Unless you were trying to say that CSG mining is “destroying every other sector of the economy”
Which is quite the statement.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 12:48 pm
Excellent. We may get to see an original thought from the anti-CSG mob. I doubt it though, but I’ll keep an open mind.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 12:50 pm
Ah so the greenie fascist calls in the Granoli shock troops because he’s getting a beating.
Uhoh here come the Uni students and Public Servants to slur and post walls of text without punctuation.
Oh no!
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 12:51 pm
how many leases did ian mcdonald sign off on , on the way out the door .
megan clarke ex bhp exec head of csiro undertaking the enviromental impact study
shaw out of politics to lobby for metco gas in canberra , and the list goes on i can feel a royal commission coming on.
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 12:52 pm
Is “truth fairy” Homer?
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 12:53 pm
oh and guys, have just posted throughout the NoCoalition! your website comment details, your audience has just increased by orders of magnitude.
Wow, you must be very influential and important.
Is this your site: http://www.nocoalitionmargaretriver.com
Why are there no posts on it?
annomer
29 Dec 11 at 12:54 pm
One of them rants on about how this is all only about being against CSG mining, nothing to do with other types of mining, then at the same time another is posting this site to his Anti Coal Mining activist group.
LOL dumb and dumber.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 12:56 pm
we communicate amongst ourselves, very effectively thank you.
Neither influential nor important, just a guy, amongst many.
I just wanted everyone to understand your point of view, i personally find it hillarious.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 12:56 pm
Beating the drums? Smoke signals? Carrier pigeon?
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 12:58 pm
no, email.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 12:59 pm
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 1:02 pm
oh, and our hydrogeologists have already picked apart Alans article. it will be entertaining to see how rabid you all can get lol.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 1:02 pm
I’ll say I called it when I said the Anti-CSG mob here were all greenie activists pretending to be salt of the earth farmers. Now we find out that yet another is involved in the running of an anti COAL mining activist site.
So far two out of the three posting here have been outed as hard left greenie activists.
So I said it once but I’ll say it again:
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:03 pm
More or less rabid than telling somebody to “go and die” like you did or that you’re going to “shove a csg gas well” up someone’s arse like the other guy did?
How rabid exactly?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:06 pm
frothing at the mouth and twitching hopefully
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 1:07 pm
Rob in Margs – lots of people in BNE and SYD have strong anti views on CSG because of the garbage they are fed in the media. Some of this garbage unfortunately is being spun by the very leftist ABC. Most of these people with strong views have never been west of the Great Dividing Range, never actually met a farmer or grazier, never seen a well being drilled or a gas well being produced yet they are convinced the world will end, aquifers will be ruined and we are all going to starve to death. And yet the Roma area in Qld has happily produced natural gas for 43 years and CSG has been produced for 16 years in Qld without an aquifer being polluted and without farmland stopping production. City people need to widen out their source of information, ask more questions and demand facts rather than greenie lefty spin, some of which is being provided by Aunty (whose credibility is now suffering badly).
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 1:12 pm
awwww.. no comeback? Safe to say I have as little respect for your opinion as you do mine. Ultimately all your cage rattling in your little corner of the e-world has no real impact or relevance to the outside world.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 1:14 pm
“”"Tree hugging moonbats crying over trees”"”
HILARIOUS!!
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 1:14 pm
just how many pollies have signed leases with csg companies
just how much were they paid
just how many have received entertainment packages
holidays, massages, maybe even flat screened tvs, free plane rides
Australians are waking up to just how many pigs have had their snouts in the trough. we are over it
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 1:14 pm
Why should we be “rabid”? CSG is going swimmingly, it’s entrenched in QLD who are reaping the benefits and after a short period of time NSW will shortly give the green light as well.
Cheap, low emission energy for all of Australia – securing our energy needs for decades. What’s not to love?
The only thing I get “rabid” about is farmers landrights. Giving farmers more ownership of their land would enable them to sink their own wells.
But the greens and you will never, ever go for that, of course as you all hate broad acre farmers.
I’d be happy if they’d be given a cut of the royalities though, which is what will happen then this manufactured opposition will be forgotten.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:15 pm
We did ask a lot of questions, of government, politicians, industry and proponents, but were not given any answers.
So we did our own research and lo and behold, tonnes and tonnes of material of the downsides and only one or two answers on the upside, mainly based on economics and jobs, which are thrown into doubt when you actually consider the full picture.
I know who i believe, and it’s not you.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 1:17 pm
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:19 pm
“”just how many have received entertainment packages”"
What is Craig Thompsons position on CSG?
And don’t say missionary.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 1:19 pm
twostix, you still make the mistake of believing that everyone who is opposed to CSG is a “greenie activist internet warrior”.
That’s your mistake to make of course and as Napoleon said “Never interrupt your enemies when they are making a mistake”
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 1:21 pm
Umm your on an anti-coal mining activist list.
The other one here *runs* lock the gate and has a resume a mile long of greenie activism.
How embarrassing for you to be unmasked though. Certainly a long way from the start of the thread where you were both posing as regular salt of the earth rural folks.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:25 pm
Don’t think I haven’t noticed you refuse to address the matter of giving farmers more land rights, including the right to sink their own wells as a solution to the “big mean companies on farmers properties” problem.
Of course farmers “rights” are a long, long way down on your list. Undoubtably under the “right” to prevent farmers from cutting down their own trees.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:28 pm
as a fifth generation real farmers daughter and there’s many more of us the 1% of the 99% who do give a rats growing in numbers by the day. are going to make a big noise come the next election and kick the multinational pirates and the pollies there in bed with right out the front door catch you later bitches
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 1:29 pm
Rob in Margs – find a farmer or grazier with 20 or 50 wells on their place – ask them what its really like. Ask them if their water bores still work OK. Ask them if they are taking any treated CSG water and if it helps their productivity. Ask them if they like the passive income from the gas production, that comes in irrespective of the rainfall and the weather. Ask if their kids have grown up and left or still live in the area. Find some real experience out there (and there is plenty of it) and listen to the people who really know what its like.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 1:29 pm
No embarassment at all, i would actually have to care about your opinion to experience embarassment. I’m just a guy who joined with the rest of my community to protect what we value. Get that – the entire community, and we get that information from surveys by our local government, local chamber of commerce and every peak industry body in the region. How does that equate to your perception that we are not in step with the broader Australia?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 1:30 pm
“Beating the drums? Smoke signals? Carrier pigeon?”
No Gab, they’ve got a secret handshake, decoder ring and everyfing!
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 1:31 pm
Peter, thankfully we don’t have farmers or graziers with 20 or 50 wells on their property, that is QLD’s curse and the entire nation is watching developments there. From what i have been able to glean, most of the communities there are up in arms over this industry, why else have all those councils voted to oppose CSG development. The sad thing is that if the shit does hit the fan, there is no way out for those farmers, while the CSG companies leave it all behind for those poor souls to try and remedy.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 1:34 pm
HAahhaha you really can’t help yourselves can you?
“Social licenses”, “integergernational equity” and now you’re spouting OWS rabid leftist 99% stupidity.
I know when I go visit my relatives farms they’re all standing in solidarity with the OWS though.
“2000 acres of farmland, we are the 99%!” LOL.
The 1% of the 99%??
So now the 99% has a class structure?
That didn’t take long.
Now off to the student bar you go, I hear today they’re serving free tofu snaggers and granoli!
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:37 pm
Such a target rich environment…
It’s like watching Red Army troops with no weapons, march into German MG fire, arms linked and singing the “Internationale”
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 1:37 pm
Because broader Australia absolutely cannot stand greenie activists and that’s exactly what you are?
Maybe?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:40 pm
WTF is granoli? Is it anything like granola?
Jarrah
29 Dec 11 at 1:42 pm
Two simple questions for all you “anti-CSG” activists who are oh-so concerned about farmers property rights:
Do you support the repeal of the vegetation acts?
Do you support giving farmers the right to sink their own wells if they wish to?
A simply litmus test the every farming body should ask every “Coalition” that turns up pretending to want to help them.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:43 pm
everyone who is opposed to CSG is a “greenie activist internet warrior”.
insert blockquote tags here!
Everyone who thinks the problem is CSG and not the pitiable state of property rights in this country IS in fact a greenie activist internet naif.
wreckage
29 Dec 11 at 1:43 pm
No the problem is innapropriate weighting being enshrined in Mining Acts that abrogate and overide local planning schemes, existing industries and uses communties as road kill on its way to profit.
nothing surer to create “greenie activist internet warriors” out of ordinary people than that.
I think it’s time to create a lable for the pro csg.. how about right wing brown fascist capitalist community killers?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 1:50 pm
2000 acres thats a horse paddock in my country. student bar been to busy working all my life for that luxury. My kids do though and guess what we were all lib/nat party voters until csg came along, most of my neighbours share my views . 5 years ago we were the boring mainsteam . kids in country towns getting mining jobs Phffff show me the stats its all fly in fly out. the miners we see in town are kiwis who live on the goldcoast . how do i know iam living in the heart of where this crap is taking place
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 1:51 pm
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:51 pm
We are the 99%!
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:53 pm
what twostix, the 99% of your brain matter that is surplus to requirements?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 1:56 pm
Hi Alan,
Long time lib/nat party voter here who lives in part of the land where 2000 acres is a horse paddock.
Can I just say that until CSG came along I never dreamed of voting Green, but I am the 99% and I definitely will from now on in order to secure my property rights. See the Greens are serious about rural farmer’s property rights.
KthanksBye!
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 1:58 pm
Fuck me.. we have social licenses being handed out, inter-generational wheeling out the kids and now the OWS crapola.
What a retarded dysfunctional bunch of loons this country has to endure.
By the way where is the salt of the earth cabbage patch farmer, Peter (Freddie) Firmfinger when you need him?
What a bunch of economic illiterate clowns these people are.
I wish there was a social license to get these idiots on those boat for the return trip after being processed on Nauru.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:01 pm
“as a fifth generation real farmers daughter and there’s many more of us the 1% of the 99%”
The landed fucking gentry more like.
Infidel Tiger
29 Dec 11 at 2:03 pm
whats the matter twostixs dont like the fact iam conservative and mainstream .
no mate your the 1% of the mainstream that’s gonna convince the rest of the 97% iam right
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 2:03 pm
Answer the questions Rob:
Do you support the repeal of the vegetation acts?
Do you support giving farmers the right to sink their own wells if they wish to?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 2:04 pm
“we were all lib/nat party voters until csg came along…..”
Bullshit.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:04 pm
how do i know iam living in the heart of where this crap is taking place
I’m in the Darling Downs. I’d say that’s “the heart of where this crap is taking place”. Where are you?
annomer
29 Dec 11 at 2:05 pm
careful infidal your starting to sound like a radical lefty
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 2:06 pm
don’t you mean what a retarded dysfunctional bunch of loons this website has to endure? i include myself as i am bothering to be involved lol.. mainly as it is very entertaining
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 2:07 pm
Hey Fairy
I’m really surprised you say you’re female, as you seem to exude very aggressive male traits. Do you shave daily?
Honest question and I’m not having a go at you.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:09 pm
How come farmers and graziers didn’t “lock the gate” when taxpayers were delivering truckloads of subsidies, hand-outs, rebates and various other dole payments?
C.L.
29 Dec 11 at 2:09 pm
Rob
You’ve been threatening to leave this heathen land since around 10 am this morning and you’re still here. Stop the pretense or just fuck off. Seriously.
No one really gives a shit whether you stay or leave.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:11 pm
Two Stix, neither of those issues relate to CSG which is the purpose of this thread. However, first of all remember i am in Western Australia so not knowing about any proposals to repeal vegetation acts or the content of those acts, don’t have an opinion.
From what I do know is that when dealing with aquifers that cover large areas, the Precautionary Principle needs to be the guiding determiner. Part of the health of an aquifer is the surface waters connected to it and part of the health of those surface waters is dependent upon a healthy eco-system. So in principle, i support regulation as to the clearing of land to ensure that negative impacts are not placed upon critical water systems and i support a farmer being able to place a bore for the purposes of irrigation, domestic use or livestock where that bore would also not have a negative impact on same water systems.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 2:12 pm
JC then why comment when i don’t. I am smart enough to be able to multi task, what pretense are you referring to?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 2:13 pm
These idiots aren’t farmers. It’s basically an astro turf operation run by cabbage patch farmers like Freddie Firmfinger and Fairy.
I suspected all along that’s what it was and I’m right.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:14 pm
all day you bitches have offered up nothing more than you bad lefties. put some facts on table get off your arse and put up the stats on how many rural kids are getting mining jobs . how many farmers want csg and how many dont surely someone for pro mining crowd on this pages has some figures to offer . just hearsay you no its true because you watch alot of adds on tv. not an independent thought amongst you
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 2:14 pm
Who cares?
C.L.
29 Dec 11 at 2:15 pm
What pretense?
Are you just moronic, Rob?
As I said, you’ve been threatening to leave since this morning and you’re still here, almost 5 hours later.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:15 pm
CL, i guess that why they are arcing up is the risk that this industry poses to their water, without which nothing is possible.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 2:16 pm
um jc.. i was at home, then had my shower, then came to work in my own business, am working but am also responding to the comments made by yourself and others. The fact that i can do this all and contribute to this discussion indicates that no, i am not a moron, otherwise i’d be on a disability support pension soaking up your tax dollars and drooling into my incontinence pads.
You still haven’t clarified what you mean by “pretense” or is that word a little too big for you, like Precautionary Principle, Generational Equity, or Cat?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 2:20 pm
how many farmers want cog
The vast majority, if they can make money from it, without upsetting their current operations now or in the future, and while respecting their property rights.
Guess what? They are making money from it and it’s the future regardless of what teething problems are happening right now.
annomer
29 Dec 11 at 2:22 pm
what the frack has farmers being helped in a time of need got to do with this tread ,something all australians do for each other. floods brushfires god knows weve had plenty of disasters lately . please jc continue i cant wait to show my neighbours just how self entitled the pro miners are
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 2:23 pm
otherwise i’d be on a disability support pension soaking up your tax dollars
I’m pretty sure that’s coming sooner or later.
annomer
29 Dec 11 at 2:24 pm
I suppose you should be grateful i will get bored eventually and leave you to your own little “i’m right! I’m Right! you think i’m right Too? I’m right! I’m right! club
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 2:24 pm
There’s no point as you and the rest of this gaggle are basically illiterate no nothing swine. There’s no point discussing markets, trade offs and profits as you don’t understand these concepts and think profits are eeeevil. So far we’ve seen the interesting concept of social license, wheeling out the kids, Futurist Freddie Firmfinger informing us that the technology will be developed 100 years from now and Rob walking around sticking pins in dolls.
Hence we just make fun of you.
“put some facts on table get off your arse and put up the stats on how many rural kids are getting mining jobs .”
Those jobs a advertised. There is no reason why rural kids aren’t getting them and frankly I don’t believe you. I’m guessing there are tons of rural kids going outback and working for mines. However, since when should the mining companies discriminate between rural and city people when they’re looking for staff?
Tell your lazy kids to get of their arse apply online, Fairy. The jobs are there.
“how many farmers want csg and how many dont surely someone for pro mining crowd on this pages has some figures to offer .”
I’m sure if the offer is generous people will do a deal like the old lezzo did (Tony Windsor) when he sold his farm.
“just hearsay you no its true because you watch alot of adds on tv. not an independent thought amongst you”
Fuck off Fairy. Go grow a brain.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:25 pm
i’m pretty sure it comes to all of us eventually annomer
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 2:26 pm
Great information Peter, Karen and Fill the Cup – the immaturity of many of the other comments on AM’s article are a bit sad really, unless they are tongue in cheek. Maybe they help explain why something as ludicrously shortsighted as the c.s.g. industry has got away with it ….so far.
Baseload solar thermal plants powering 25,000 homes 24 hours a day are fully operating in Grenada & Seville in Spain. 43,000 baseload solar thermal plant powered homes about to get off the ground in Nevada USA. Baseload solar thermal plants in Oregon & California to power 140,000 homes and 235,000 homes respectively are right now under construction. Germany’s investment in solar plants is outstanding, China’s and India’s solar investment well under way – long term thinking.
Catch up Australia, land of perpetual sunshine! What the point investing in last century coal/coal seam gas fields with profits largely going to overseas multinationals, plus a death blow to our food/water security. I am a grandmother on the Gold Coast looking out for my grandkids and their peers.
Check out “Beyond Zero Emissions” website. There are many more long term jobs in solar thermal technology/operations than in the mining industry – who in their right minds opts for short term gain (for the very few in coal/csg) for long term irreversible pain.
Jenny Chester
29 Dec 11 at 2:30 pm
I’m not pro any group per se, Fairy. If the miners can make a buck out of the operation and the farmers get to share a little as well as the government I’m all for it as it raises living standards for all of us.
What I’m against are trolls and trollops like you poisoning the well with bullshit and dishonest claims when the thing closer to the truth is that you’re envious of those people making money out of this enterprise.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:31 pm
Just had a quick ring around of the properties in my area – 200 km SE of Mt Isa. Of the eight, seven would allow CSG on their properties if they got a fair slice of the income.
The eighth wanted more time to think about it.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 2:31 pm
Frack off JC, leave the fairies alone you bully!!
I’d say grow a brain, but sadly your thick skull only leaves room for one the size of a pea, dessicated…
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 2:31 pm
“poses to their water, without which nothing is possible.”
Perhaps you might think of this in relation to the Murray Darling, Rob of Margs, where a substantial amount of the water does little else than wash the fishies.
Whilst we’re at it, last time I was in the Margaret River area, it was full of dope farms, dope smokers and half failed NIMBY ‘Vintners’
Very much like Nimbin on the NSW North Coast. So the odds are against you being a ‘horny handed son of toil’
Bet you use irrigation for your skunk weed too…
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 2:37 pm
jc my kids dont need mining jobs they’ve chosen long term sustainable employment with their degrees ,and worked there way through uni, are smart enough to realise the short term benefits and bucks arent worth the risk . guessing thats what your rant is based on. mine has been on facts not one of which you have actually addressed. your brain probably fell out of your arse a long time ago . i m sure youd like me to be a hairy lesbian but im not i was blessed with good looks great body and brains.
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 2:40 pm
Ye Gods, Green Slime everywhere JC on this thread. Let me repeat what you said earlier:
“And there is no one here being paid to say anything, you red nosed fucking clown. People here are simply rational human beings.”
All you paid or free-leaching Greenie newcomers to the Cat should know that this is a robust and honest site, where you will be torn apart if you aren’t prepared to face argumentation about your received wisdoms and learn to either defend them with argument or recognise how silly they are (or both). You have never met such a thing no doubt in all of your wonderful Green university lives, and let me tell you, it is good for you. If you aren’t a Greenie but have just been caught in their entrails, then stick around and listen, ‘cos the Cat can put you right. You won’t find just one view on the Cat, but Green Slime is not liked much.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 2:43 pm
Judging by the trajectory, JC should be bringing out the threats of violence any moment now.
Just don’t ever point out that Sinclair publishes them, because he might want to get outraged at a threat of his own someday.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 2:45 pm
“newcomers to the Cat should know that this is a robust and honest site, where you will be torn apart if you aren’t prepared to face argumentation about your received wisdoms and learn to either defend them with argument or recognise how silly they are (or both)”
LOL
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 2:46 pm
You’re a liar, the entire “lock the gate” platform is run along the lines of “the poor farmers don’t even have the right to keep big bad miners off their land”.
But as you finally evasively manage to state, you don’t give a shit about farmers property rights either and in fact are even worse than the big bad mining companies as you don’t even want to let farmers have the right to cut down their own tree without begging the urban green bureaucracy first.
Such duplicity and a pox on any farmer who falls for the ruse, the anti-coal seam gas “movement” is entirely made up of fake tree change hobby farmers and urban greenie hippies.
True farmers and rural Aussies join this rabble at their peril.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 2:47 pm
“i m sure youd like me to be a hairy lesbian”
To be honest fairy the thought did cross my mind as you sound aggressive in a masculine sort of way, so i thought you one of those nasty, irrational Nimbin dykes.
“but im not i was blessed with good looks great body and brains.”
Shouldn’t you let other people be the judge? In any event I’ve noticed that some women generally over-rate their looks by 2 to 3 points out of 10. So if you think you’re a 8, you’re probably about 4 to 5 or below. Just a hunch mind you, but I fear a good one.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:54 pm
Sanchez
Stop trolling. Either contribute to a thread in an intelligent way or please go back under the rock you came up from.
I asked you a question earlier as I’m honestly unsure which side of the debate you support, Sanchez. Are you for or against CSG?
I guessing you support it , right? LOl.
You leftwing green zombie, Sanchez.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 2:57 pm
Free speech at Catallaxy: still better than the gulags.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 3:00 pm
“jc my kids dont need mining jobs they’ve chosen long term sustainable employment with their degrees ,and worked there way through uni, are smart enough to realise the short term benefits and bucks arent worth the risk .”
Degrees in penis puppetry and womyns studies no doubt. Just as well they’ve avoided this whole mining fad. That shit will never last. Avoid shares in that cheeky little start up Broken Hill Pty at all costs.
Infidel Tiger
29 Dec 11 at 3:01 pm
The answer to all those questions would be made plain, JC, if Sinclair wasn’t lopping my comments in half to evade criticism.
How do YOU feel about censorship?
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 3:01 pm
most of you boys sit in town somewhere. real farmers are foremost environmentalist. Were brought up not to shit in our own backyards. Very scientific all water in the murrey does is wash fishes. god help us if your the 98%. oh an boys ive got my big girl blouse on, bring it on . cause the greenies on this page are to nice. iam not a greenie, did see a couple at byron bay the last time i drove through
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 3:02 pm
……..did see a couple at byron bay the last time i drove through on the way back to Nimbin.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 3:04 pm
Glad to amuse you Sancho; it takes not much apparently. Onya twostix.
Every public vista in Australia, big and small, is now obscured by what I call Green Tree Disease. Especially, don’t hope for a glimpse of water anywhere. It is not just the dreadful ‘rich’ who aren’t allowed an inspiring view, it is everyone, everywhere – be it on the Cairns Kurranda Railway, the Great Ocean Road, the Governor Philip Lookout (and many other lookouts throughout Oz), or at Sydney’s West Head Panorama (panorama no more).
Self-important and self-satisfied Greenies are covering our cleared lands with bushfire fodder and denying farmers their natural rights over their own properties as well as getting up the noses of urban property owners. Greenies sing their Druid song: every leaf is sacred. Been chilly here in Sydney lately too, hasn’t it you loony warmists clinging to discredited Green ‘science’?
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 3:04 pm
“”" real farmers are foremost environmentalist. Were brought up not to shit in our own backyards.”"”
I’m with that!!
“”"god help us if your the 98%. oh an boys ive got my big girl blouse on, bring it on . cause the greenies on this page are to nice.”"”
Now you’ve lost me again.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 3:08 pm
“The answer to all those questions would be made plain, JC, if Sinclair wasn’t lopping my comments in half to evade criticism.”
I’m taking a rough stab here, Sanchez and thinking Sinclair simply doesn’t like you as he thinks you’re basically a moron like most people do here.
There are plenty of lefties here that have never been turfed out head first like you, so it’s nothing to do with ideology. You’re just a clown and an abusive one at that with a passive aggressive tone (the worst trait of all)
“How do YOU feel about censorship?”
Of course I’m against censorship, Sanchez, you dildo. However lets not confuse censorship with turfing you off this site, because if I owned the site you would have been out of here long ago.. on your arse.
Censorship has nothing to do with throwing you off this site. The fact that you drone about it on every comment makes me hope you get the boot ASAP.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 3:11 pm
“Glad to amuse you Sancho; it takes not much apparently”
Sinclair deleted the link that put it in context. Let him know how you feel about censorship.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 3:12 pm
Is ‘truth fairy’ Phil the greek?
Sinclair Davidson
29 Dec 11 at 3:12 pm
So why are my comments deleted or altered, JC? You haven’t given any good reason for why that might happen.
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 3:13 pm
I don’t think so, although they seem closely related particularly in the loon department.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 3:15 pm
the people in my family are ag scientists microbiologist doctors lawyers farmers hairdressers diesel fitters ringers chefs you know country people, we breed well, all that eye fillet and baked potatoes and yes we’ve got the odd dole bludger shop assistance musicians on the whole we all are and contribute to the mainstream and jc not one of us is a member of the greens and not one of us want csg
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 3:16 pm
“The other one here *runs* lock the gate and has a resume a mile long of greenie activism.”
I don’t *run* LTG – and my resume has two closely related things WAGE and Lock The Gate – one local and one distributed across over 120 groups like WAGE. In both cases they are within the last four years.
Hardly makes me a hard left greenie activist. In fact the only other activism I have taken part in was against the greens in stopping Cessnock Council imposing an E3 zone (replacing a Rural zone) in Wollombi Valley in the standarised LEP – again on the side of the farmers and rural land owners.
My views are pretty much the same as Senator Heffernan’s – a noted Hard left greenie?
I never said I was a farmer but I live in a rural community.
At least Peter J is being civil and debating the issue rather than just spewing personal abuse. That’s what this should be about.
Rather than just bloviating and attepting cheap shots and abuse at a personal level – deal with the facts – read the Act for instance.
This is what Lock the Gate is about:
The LOCK THE GATE Alliance is a national alliance of over 120 community, industry and environmental groups and over 1200 supporters concerned with the devastating impact that certain inadequately assessed and inadequately-regulated fossil fuel extraction industries are having on our short and long term physical, social, environmental and economic wellbeing. We are particularly concerned with the damage caused by the coal and coal seam gas (CSG) mining industries.
We believe that neither we, nor our governments (at all levels), are sufficiently well informed about these industries, about their true role in our economy and their impact on our health and welfare as a nation and within the diverse communities that constitute our nation. We are concerned that the short-term greed associated with these industries (including that of governments through royalties and other returns) is compromising the welfare of future generations of Australians and our future ability to thrive in a new world driven by renewable energy sources.
We believe that the interaction of these industries with our governments and the extreme imbalance between the way their rights are measured against the rights of others in the community is indicative of a system that is no longer working for all Australians and that has lost a moral and ethical compass.
Our mission is to hold our governments to account for past decisions regarding the operation of destructive fossil fuel industries and ensure that future decisions incorporate the rights of current and future generations of Australians to sustain their communities, pursue their livelihoods, enjoy and realise the potential of their assets (natural, cultural and economic) and operate within a healthy natural environment. In doing so, we wish to encourage our vision of a model of government decision-making that is properly informed, inclusive, far-sighted and morally and ethically based.
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 3:21 pm
“So why are my comments deleted or altered, JC? You haven’t given any good reason for why that might happen.”
Sanchez
I do have a good reason although I’m simply speculating here. My guess, as I said, is the site management doesn’t like you and possibly thinks you’re a complete waste of space.
Here’s an objective for you.
If you post comments try and be on message and stop attacking the site owners. Attack their arguments but not them. Also try and say something intelligent once in a while. It doesn’t have to be all the time as that would be expecting far, far too much from you.
lastly stop it with your theory of da nile equals creationism as no one’s interested in reading about it every second comment of yours. It’s really stoopid.
Try all that and you may become a regular with the privileges everyone else has.
I’m not betting the farm you’ll succeed though as you’re not very bright. In fact you doggedly stupid in some ways.
Thank me in a month if it works out for you Sanchez. Personally I find you very amusing, as you’re so thick.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 3:23 pm
Hey Big Girl Truth Fairy, do up your blouse. Don’t make assumptions about us here on the Cat. I was brought up on a mixed dairy farm and can hand milk a cow and farrow a pig and recognise coccidiosis in my chickens. I’ve lost a potato crop to black beetle and lived through drought in the dam and flash flood in the creek. On my dad’s place I could show you a platypus and I know country folk. They are canny and generally not Greenie. They love the land but not in that effing ‘rains are coming down like a woman’s water’s breaking’ manner beloved of ABC ads. The land is their livlihood and they like to use it to make money. You are losing sight of that.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 3:24 pm
truth fairy
Look, Australia needs farms cause we need to eat (and fibre) and we need export income.
Australia also needs mining, cause we need the shit we mine( for everything else) and export income.
The Greens hate both.
Don’t trust em, they are never content.
If you arereally a rural person, you will remember the past.
“The enemy of my enemy” does NOT apply to Greens.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 3:27 pm
the argument about CSG essentially comes down to water. This industry uses huge amounts of it, extracts massive amounts of salt that no-one knows what to do with and the resulting destablisation of hydrostatic balance within aquifers spread the potential impacts over a much larger area. Water beats gas in terms of what we NEED to exist, so does food. all who are pro csg, can you answer me these questions..
What do you do if your aquifers become contaminated or degraded and are no longer able to supply potable water for domestic use?
What do you do with all the salt?
If these questions cannot be answered, do you think there is merit in slowing down the development of this undustry until these questions have been answered?
No insults, no jibes, no jeers please.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 3:27 pm
Peter Freddie Firmfinger,
So let me get this right, you’re not a greenie, but you took all those pics of Repugnant Rhiannon. They were taken in error, right? It was an accident, as you were focusing on some else and she threw herself in the frame as you were taking the pic.
Yea I can understand that.
I can also understand how you left the Greens over Israel but also post pics of former soviet money bags seeing she is a ring leader of the anti-Semitic movement on the left.
yea, we all came down in the last shower.
lastly, who gives a shit what Heffernan supports. He’s a conservative statist and this site is primarily populated by Libertarians rightwingers.
If Heffernan supports your cause then he’s just as guilty over this issue as you are. Big deal, none of the regulars here have a problem lambasting Coalition members if the fuck up.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 3:31 pm
Coal seam gas is such a wonderful technology, which has become economic, in the most timely fashion. We don’t really deserve to have had such good luck with it. The problem isn’t with the technology. The problem is the way we distribute natural resources. The problem is the mode in which companies acquire property rights to our natural resources.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 3:32 pm
Rob
There are hue numbers of seam gas operations in the US and there have not been the problems you suggest there.
The courts are always available if you can show loss.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 3:33 pm
not all of us want to make money from csg!!!! yes weve all raised pottycalves enjoyed the wildlife can recognise disease in our live stock. its our job just like it is our job to protect our farms from enviromenatal vandals . with out good water were fracked jc what have you brought to the debate except fuck off greenies you def arent a mining exec your too stupid
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 3:36 pm
“Check out “Beyond Zero Emissions” website. There are many more long term jobs in solar thermal technology/operations than in the mining industry”
Well done jenny you managed to reference an ecoharpies wet dream, free lentils for everyone.
Pity that this kind of bilge will always need to be subsidised by the taxpayer and still cannot deliver reliable baseload power at an affordable price.
If there were such a river of gold and long term jobs available i’m sure the venture capitalists would have been all over this.
Perhaps you’d be better off returning to the drum circle or canoodling with a red gum mmmmkay.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 3:38 pm
One of those photos was of Lee Rhiannon talking to Dale Troy – ex Liberal (now independent) Cessnock Councillor – a good mate of mine. Yes I was at an anti-CSG rally at the AGL AGM. What a pathetic argument. I took a photo of Lee Rhiannon so I must be a leftwing greenie.
Whatever – we’re still winning
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 3:38 pm
JC, a recent investigation by the US EPA has shown a direct link between csg operations and contamination of water sources, destruction of native habitat and detrimental impacts upon the health and wellbeing of people living amongst csg fields. That is the latest information coming out of the US keeping in mind it is only in the past 2 years that the US government has allowed the EPA to assess the impacts of the industry. If it wasn’t for the exemption from the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act gained by Dick Cheney (CEO, halliburton corp that developed the fracking process) these impacts would have been officially recognised much earlier.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 3:39 pm
p.s. just remembered there are 2 Peters, I was commending Peter Firminger
Jenny Chester
29 Dec 11 at 3:39 pm
“I was commending Peter Firminger”
Get a room.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 3:42 pm
Truth fairy, how long ago were the greens calling YOU the ” environmental vandal”?
I you can’t remember, ask Firminger.
Hay Fermenter, help us out, how long ago?
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 3:45 pm
If you can’t ….
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 3:46 pm
“JC, a recent investigation by the US EPA has shown a direct link between csg operations and contamination of water sources, destruction of native habitat and detrimental impacts upon the health and wellbeing of people living amongst csg fields.”
They’ve even made a movie about it. We can expect these sort of results here, given our resources policy. But should we have expected these results in the US? Does anyone have much of an idea how the US goes about doling out property rights for natural resources? If they have a good system, and yet supposing they are truly getting these bad results, its only then that we would be calling the technology itself into question.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 3:47 pm
“I was at an anti-CSG rally at the AGL AGM”.
Unless you have some skin in the game i doubt the shareholders of AGL give a toss what ecoharpies think.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 3:47 pm
Fairy
You’re losing it. the last comment as incoherent gibberish.
Rob
Sorry the US EPA is a poltically tainted organization and anything coming from them is tainted.
The peer reviewed stuff I’ve read indicates that the process is fine. There are also numerous seams operating in the US that are functioning perfectly well.
What you seem to want is an ironclad guarantee that nothing will go wrong. That simply isn’t possible.
I presume you’ve flown in a plane, right? Have you asked Boeing Airbus to give you an ironclad guarantee that nothing will go wrong with the plane? Of course not.
In this case you’ve thrown the precautionary principle out the window because and I assuming here, you’ve flown in the plane. The reason of course is that we all know that sooner or later a plane will go down but the odds a tiny that it would be your flight. If you were honest about the precautionary principle you would quickly see that it is unworkable. It’s basically nonsense.
Ask yourself what are the trade offs.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 3:51 pm
Americans love csg not from what i read, neither does Ireland. Britain new Zealand or any other country it shows up in, the grass root movements are springing up all over the world no political agenda just concern for the environment.
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 3:52 pm
The stuff in the US is mostly Shale Gas not CSG – the fracking is the same process – just clarifying.
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 3:55 pm
Oh, JC a mining exec, lol. The picture! Imagine the Board meetings. He is a trader, darling. A very smart one, don’t mess with him. As some are finding on this thread, Cat people are very good with digging around on the internet and come up with all sorts of things. Beware.
Plenty of debate above about the water table issues, the risks seem to be grossly overstated, as with most Green hysterias. The arguments seem more political and distributive rather than genuinely environmental. Cool heads and moving away from Green paranoia might seem to provide a focus for debate for the genuinely concerned.
Farmers should not EVER trust feral Green socialists, they are wolves, even if they appear looking harmless and friendly in sheep’s clothing.
As for this piece extracted from above, as Gab is won’t to say, please pass me a bucket:
“Our mission is to hold our governments to account for past decisions regarding the operation of destructive fossil fuel industries and ensure that future decisions incorporate the rights of current and future generations of Australians to sustain their communities, pursue their livelihoods, enjoy and realise the potential of their assets (natural, cultural and economic) and operate within a healthy natural environment. In doing so, we wish to encourage our vision of a model of government decision-making that is properly informed, inclusive, far-sighted and morally and ethically based.”
It is Green sludge. It has brought you Julia Gillard and the Labor Government and all the economic loss which that entails. It will destroy your rights and freedoms with a sneaky smirk, mouthing the inanities above as it squeezes you dry.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 3:56 pm
“I took a photo of Lee Rhiannon so I must be a leftwing greenie.”
Actually thee are several pics of the disgrace for a human being, Freddie, not just one. From what I can see she is also wearing different clothes, which indicates she didn’t go to just one of your rallies, but several.
Who invited her, Freddie? Did you?
Also you haven’t explained how you reconcile your alleged support for Israel that caused you to leave the Greens Party and snapping pics of the former Soviet Money bags.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 3:57 pm
jc were not talking about a couple of hundred people were taking about aquifers interlaced with each other that we’re dependant on for more than just washing fishes you mate need water just like the rest of us would you cut off your nose to spite your face probably
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 3:57 pm
For the record, I don’t own any mining company except a small position in EXK a US firm operating silver mines in North America.
I have also never worked for a mining company and don’t have and never had any financial ties to any.
In fact I’m looking to short the mining ETF over the next week or so if I get around to it as I don’t like that sector.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 4:00 pm
LOL all these supposed “farmers” been on here all day long and not tending to their “farms”. Well I guess they have produced enough manure on this blog to cover most of QLD. So their day was not a total waste.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 4:01 pm
JC, where are you getting you peer reviewed information from? Industry sources perhaps? how compromised would that information then be?
Your example of the plane is not really relevant. A plane crashes, disaster yes, but it does not mean that entire regions then have to cope with polluted water and degraded agricultural productivity, nor do future generations have to deal with the impacts.
I note that no one has been able to answer those simple core questions i asked earlier. Do you not have the answers? Why should communities accept your assurances that nothing would happen if you are unable to answer the basics?
Of course in any situation there is the potential for things to go wrong. It is a question of scale. If a small probability even occured that DID cause damage to our aquifers, there is a greater risk that those damages will affect a much larger area than the initial foot print of a proposal.
How do you repair an aquifer if it is depleted/contaminated. How do you make good on this? How do you then ensure that those who are affected by this occurance would be able to obtain sufficient water to support themselves and their businesses. What happens in 10 years time once the companies move on?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 4:01 pm
Fairy
If you want us to read your sludge please show a bit of class and apply proper grammar like using full stops at the very least.
It’s really a sign of poor breeding not to use full stops etc and expect people to wade through the crap.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 4:03 pm
“Why should communities accept your assurances that nothing would happen if you are unable to answer the basics?”
they don’t have to. If they are caused a loss they can sue.
What assurances do i get from an airline that while I posting this comment a 747 jet doesn’t come careering through my roof.
As I said the precautionary principle is a load of shit. Always has been and always will be.
it’s basically used by the Greenslime in an attempt to prevent technological progress in the same way as the Luddites. They need to be taken on at every to the point where people feel embarrassed they every supported them.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 4:08 pm
“A plane crashes”
“How do you repair an aquifer if it is depleted/contaminated”
Well, according to sarah hyphen-diddums ‘accidents happen’. It’s the ecoharpie way, you know it makes sense.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 4:08 pm
i wish you lot would dig around on the Internet and come up with some facts instead of the bad greenie drivel so far the only facts that have been put up are by the anti csg crowd if you dont want an open tread close it ,you can all pretend these concerns are only the ramblings of left wing greenies
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 4:09 pm
“Well I guess they have produced enough manure on this blog to cover most of QLD. ”
Are their concerns not real concerns? There is certainly no inherent conflict between agricultural and coal seam gas technologies. But if the overseas experience suggests that there will be damage, then this is something to take seriously.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 4:10 pm
Thank you Black Nobility, at last soem consideration given that these concerns warrant being looked at.
JC you seem to miss the point regarding your reliance on being able to sue.
The problem is that once the damage has been done, there are no technologically valid methods by which the damage can be undone. No amount of money will make good an aquifer.
Also re sueing, you would first have to establish base line testing, which government have been loath to carry out, and then identify the contaminants, their sources and prove that it was the responsibility of the csg miner, no easy task given the lack of information provided by the industry, the wealth and legal resources available to communities or individuals when up against multi billion multi nationals.
And during all this, you have no water, no income and no assets as no one else would want the land afterwards.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 4:18 pm
great thing about democracy i dont have to be well breed to have an opinion, one minute iam the landed gentry next iam an uneducated hayseed so and so it goes on, so jc are you even in australia or are you a Silver miner from the states. jc how do you repair the underground water table if you poison it, if your so fracking smart enlighten us
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 4:20 pm
Black
No their concerns are not real, it’s basically nimby, leftwing green crap, that’s all.
There has been no substantial contamination in the US and the EPA raised the issue of potential risk, which the industry is aware of. The EPA did not condemn the industry as too risky or anything like that.
As I said earlier there are a numerous operating in the US without difficulty and have so for quite a while.
The lock the gate crowd is just another astroturf operation created by the green sludge, that’s all.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 4:20 pm
ps. i am doing my absolute best to actually have debate now without insults, slurs, or attempting to demean the individual.
If you really want to have a rational discussion and want to claim to be rational, could you please do the same and omit you mantra of “greenslime fascist luddites”
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 4:21 pm
sue how very american jc and then what move overseas
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 4:24 pm
Nope. No fucking way. Hell would have to freeze over before I abandoned any such term to refer to that human filth.
If you don’t consider yourself a green supporter then it should not be a problem for you.
Are you then?
JC
29 Dec 11 at 4:24 pm
Oh and JC, your assertion that there has been no subsantial contamination in the US is not supported by the information coming out of the US.
What you are expousing appears to be the industry line, who of course are above using propaganda to pursue profits (sic), which does nothing to further the debate as we have heard all that verbatim ad nauseum.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 4:26 pm
“Nope. No fucking way. Hell would have to freeze over before I abandoned any such term to refer to that human filth.”
Harsh, but fair.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 4:26 pm
I consider myself human, it appears that you are not prepared to acknowledge that in others of the species who disagree with you.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 4:27 pm
Actually Fairy, we’re not far behind in the legal stoush department either.
I don’t see what the problem is. The mining firms are more than well insured in case of a disaster as they are forced to take insurance. The amount is supposed to cover for potential losses.
If people suffer a loss they can obtain compensation by engaging a law firm.
Life carries risk, Fairy. We also help mitigate against risk with insurance.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 4:27 pm
come on jc were do you live. if its not in australia i can see why your all for it, talk about a nimby no wonder you ve got no real facts or fears to bring to the table wanker
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 4:28 pm
Caught you red handed, TF you liar.
“Very scientific all water in the murrey does is wash fishes.”
What I wrote:
“where a substantial amount of the water does little else than wash the fishies.”
You pricks just cannot help yourselves, can you? You lie even when you don’t have to.
Bloody sociopaths…
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 4:28 pm
Peter, the shale oil fraccing process castigated in Gaslands is NOT the same as the coal seam fraccing here. Here the CSG companies do not use diesel as a forcing fluid additive, for example. basically the only additives to the water used for fraccing are the same stuff that goes into pool chemicals, as well as sand and gel to force open the clits in the seam.
I am a bit worried that you think the only possible outcome of removing brackish water from a coal seam will result in widespread contamination of the Great Artesian Basin, with no alternative outcome in your worldview.
it is all very easy to sit back in WA, soak up all the claptrap the activists have fed you, and not actually do the hard yards to find out what is really going on.
The water extracted from the Surat and Galilee basins (the Bowen Basin is not part of the GAB) to allow the CSG to come out of suspension would represent one thoopteenth of bugger all of one percent of the water in the GAB. And by extracting this water the pressure gradient will end up being into the coal seam, not away. So widespread contamination is unlikely. The possibility remains, of course, of local contamination in highly fractured locations, which is all the fruitcakes need to carry on about it.
Quite a lot is known about the GAB, and the likely impacts of CSG water extraction. But in the way of real life, everything cannot ever be known.
The Qld Water Commission has developed a detailed model, and there are thousands of test bores across Queensland, let alone information from all the farmers’ bores (one irony, farmers had accessed the GAB using uncapped bores – so the water just flows across the ground from artisan bores – for 150 years, and the government has only recently helped fund the capping of these bores). And then there is the rape of the condamine groundwater by irrigators, so much so that the pressure is reversed around Dalby so that coal seam gas water is flowing out of the coal seam into the condamine aquifer, when it would naturally be the other way. CSG operations might actually help here (OK a bit facetious). At least the irrigators are smart enough to have worked out what is going on and are reducing their take. Now they just have to ensure they get a fair land access deal for CSG operations.
There are two water related issues with CSG operations:
1. pressure drops. As noted above, there will be some interconnection, even through solid rock, with flow attracted to the seam as the pressure gradient will be in that direction. this will reduce pressure in surrounding aquifers, with modelling suggesting between 5 and 15 m bore head drops in subartesian bores, depending on location. In Qld there is legislation requiring CSG companies to ‘make good’ water supply if this head height drop causes a problem.
2. the brackish water that is brought to the surface. In some areas, this CSG water is drinkable (and has been used as such for years), in other areas, it isn’t. NSW hasn’t got a handle on this yet, but in Qld there is extensive legislation in the EPA, P&G and MRA Acts dealing with this water. Basically, if they can’t put it back (reinjection), they are required to treat it, usually by reverse osmosis, which results in potable water. This can be used for beneficial purposes (town water, stock water, irrigation) or in certain circumstances can be put into streams (with a lot of rules around that). The brine left over from the RO process will be further processed into products that can be sold (e.g. Sodium bicarb) and any remaining slurry buried in specific, purpose built facilities.
Only isolated test wells will be allowed to have a small evaporation pond, which cannot be permanent. Production wells cannot have evaporation ponds.
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 4:31 pm
in relation to being a green supporter, the sad truth is that i have looked at all the political parties and i do despair, of the lot of them in the main.
My personal opinion however is that as a race, we cannot afford to continue on a business as usual model, the stakes are becoming too high.
Having said that, i would vote for any party the genuinely and consistently focussed their efforts on the long term survivability of our species and the health of resident communities.
More to the point, the more opinion that seems to generated in your percieved camp arises, the more i am more and more certain that i am in the opposite camp and more and more convinced it is the right place to be.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 4:31 pm
Winston, i don’t think they are sociopaths, they just want the lumpenproles to to do what their ‘betters’ want.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 4:32 pm
Entropy, not sure what the situation over there is, but we have had a csg company use 20,000 litres of diesel to test frack a coal seam in the Whicher Range in the South West of WA.
It also appears that you have more information as to what is planned for the salt than we have been able to obtain. If it is so clear cut, why do the CSG companies not release their science and information in order to allay the fears the people have for their land, families and communities?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 4:36 pm
“My personal opinion however is that as a race, we cannot afford to continue on a business as usual model, the stakes are becoming too high.
Having said that, i would vote for any party the genuinely and consistently focussed their efforts on the long term survivability of our species and the health of resident communities.”
WTF does that even mean, are we doomed?, is there some impending apocolypse we should know about?
What stakes are you refering to?, or are you subtley referring to the ecoharpie doom merchant predictions? (ala Flannery, Williams, Hanson et al)
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 4:38 pm
oh winston caught me red handed. whats that!! you do know water in the murrey darling basin does more than wash fishes, see your learning something. jc should have known you were a septic tank by the way you run off at the mouth. we would prefer to protect our country rather than sue after the fact.
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 4:40 pm
I have problem with people disagreeing with me, Rob. I have a serious problem accepting any serious member of the Australian Greens Party is a fully formed human being. It’s a fascist organization with seriously fucked up people such as Rhiannon and other trogs. There is absolutely no reason to debate them in the same way I wouldn’t waste any time with a Nazi or a Leninist.
This is a political party that needs to be crushed at the ballot box and every last vestige of this evil misanthropic grouping thrown at sea.
They poison everything they touch
JC
29 Dec 11 at 4:40 pm
Rob in margs.
Salt is an industrial feedstock.
http://www.wasalt.com.au/SaltProducts.html
(So is CO2, but that’s for another day.)
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 4:41 pm
lol stoned hippy: I can feel the waves, man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBluUZ4NnZg
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 4:43 pm
Wow tf, i bow before your superior debating skills. You do realise that is the blogging equivalent of ‘you’re a poopy head’.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 4:43 pm
oops..wrong clip, wrong thread.
Carry on.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 4:43 pm
“I do have a good reason although I’m simply speculating here. My guess, as I said, is the site management doesn’t like you and possibly thinks you’re a complete waste of space.
…
If you post comments try and be on message and stop attacking the site owners. Attack their arguments but not them”
JC is at least open in his willingness to silence those with dissenting and opposing views, unlike Davidson, who quietly deletes discomforting arguments but maintains the facade of treasuring liberty.
Attacking arguments is all I’ve done, and everything I’m being censored for.
Do you think I should demand Sinclair have a fist fight with me instead, JC?
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 4:45 pm
the CSG companies do release their data. water data, for example, from all their test bores, farmers bores and DERM monitoring bores is centrally stored on the Qld water commission web site. This includes head heights, water quality etc.
The legislation on treatment of CSG water, disposal etc is all readily available on a number of Queensland Government websites (e.g. DEEDI, DERM). I frequently hear this meme that the information is not available, and am a bit nonplussed. of course, I suspect for some people there will never be enough data, and the risk is never small enough to accept.
if what you report regarding diesel being used in a WA test bore fracc is true, I would be focussing on getting the WA government to get in early and put appropriate management in place. They could have a look at the qld legislation and see what can be transferred into theirs. I am not familiar enough with WA legislation to know what is and is not appropriate.
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 4:47 pm
“Black
No their concerns are not real, it’s basically nimby, leftwing green crap, that’s all.”
Farmers? Left-wing green crap coming from farmers? How credible is that? And the movie that was made about the consequences of tracking, with all that on-camera testimony? Do you suppose that was just a beat-up to get oil prices higher? I’m willing to go with your argument, but how exactly are you obtaining your information?
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 4:49 pm
JC, sadly, the only poison i am witnessing (apart from CSG) is your contributions to this discussion. If you can’t handle people disagreeing with you than it appears you are ill-equipped to handle a rational conversation about this subject.
Also, your freqent accusations of people who disagree with as being “fascist” etc shows that it is pointless to even attempt to have a rational conversation with you as a conversation involves the exchange of ideas, one way communication is a monologue and is not useful for ascertaining key elements of any issue.
Carpe Jugulum, i did not refer to any doomsday scenarios, only the evidence of my own senses. If what i said is opaque to you, i don’t know what else to say. Seemed pretty clear to me.
Winston, yes salt has its uses but there are no clear plans by a csg company that i can find that clearly answers the question of what to do with the sheer volume of salt.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 4:50 pm
Is this an unreasonable argument?
http://johnhumphreys.com.au/2011/08/14/farmers-miners-private-property-rights/
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 4:51 pm
Nazis nope. just a mianstream aussie. last time i looked at the family tree my ancestors were Irish.
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 4:51 pm
entropy
I don’t agree but thanks for the rational debate, sadly missing elswhere in this thread. I’m in the Hunter Valley not WA.
Peter Firminger
29 Dec 11 at 4:52 pm
Why “Black Nobility” as a user name?
Sancho
29 Dec 11 at 4:53 pm
Black nobility, good reference. It shows there is room to maneuver, but we need to be more strategic in our long term thinking.
Paramount should be protection of water resources as we all depend on water.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 4:57 pm
“”"”but there are no clear plans by a csg company that i can find that clearly answers the question of what to do with the sheer volume of salt.”"”
What are the volumes of salt?
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 4:57 pm
No worries Peter, I will say the NSW government does need to lie tits game wrt to CSG management
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 4:58 pm
No worries Peter, I will say the NSW government does need to lift its game wrt to CSG management
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 4:59 pm
After 20 years there will be a couple of football fields worth of salt. Most of it will not be commercial unfortunately
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 5:00 pm
No you’re “merely” the Vice Chair of WAGE and oh look who just happens to be the registrant for lockthegate.com.au….you, and which entity owns lockthegate.com.au? WAGE – which you’re Vice Chairman of.
And around and around we go.
Now, according to some minutes on your site, the Facilitator at the last LTG meeting was Drew Hutton.
Who’s Drew Hutton? Co founder and serial Candidate of the QLD Greens.
Who took the minutes? Andrea Vickers.
Who’s Andrea Vickers?
Recent Greens Candidate for the Tweed.
So at the last Lock the Gate meeting both the facilitator was the co-founder of the QLD Greens and the minute taker was a recent Greens candidate.
Lets look further.
Who was elected secretary?
(Sarah Moles) – Qld Green senate candidate
Who else is there in office?
Warrick Jordan – National Forest Campaigner for The Wilderness Society,
Michael McNamara (Tweed, Northern Rivers Guardians) – utter ratbags who try and ban car rallies.
Cassie McMahon (Ipswich; Friends of the Earth) serial Greens activist, anti nuclear campaigner and general greenie pest.
I think you’re not being entirely honest in that wall of text on what exactly Lock The Gate is.
What it *isn’t* is a spontaneous organisation by everyday people against CSG mining.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 5:00 pm
jumpnmcar
Quoting from the Senate Enquiry into CSG, it is estimated that the amount of salt that would be produced in the Murray Darling Basin alone would be 1.6 million tonnes of salt
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:00 pm
Carpe, unfortunately, the Left tend to fit the definition which is why I use the term.
1. Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
2. Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”
3. Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
4. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
5. Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
6. Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
7. Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
8. Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others’ lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
9. Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle.
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
It’s a cut and paste, but it is a good indicator of the Trollflood we’re experiencing.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 5:01 pm
thats the problem they are making it up as they go . why are farmers having water restrictions placed on them because the government fears aquifer depletion, and on the other hand giving miners as much as they want for free. thats what the fuss is about, they have not been able to address any of the concerns people have over this issue. not one excect theres lots of money in it not good enough for me
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 5:05 pm
yes, I will retract my statement of a couple of football fields. It is more like 15. the estimate is 31 million tonnes. Each CSG company in Qld is required to build a facility to store any they haven’t used for commercial purposes. This facility is defined by DERM.
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 5:05 pm
rob
I’m very wary of senate enquires, do you have the source of their information?
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 5:05 pm
Truth fairy: because they are not the same aquifers, and in each location only extracting for 10 years or so?
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 5:06 pm
“Black nobility, good reference. It shows there is room to maneuver, but we need to be more strategic in our long term thinking.
Paramount should be protection of water resources as we all depend on water.”
Absolutely. Water resources are most important. The thing is supposing:
1. You have no lease deals, so no up-front cost.
2. The revenue to both the farmer and the extractor are tax free.
3. The farmer has the ultimate property rights.
4. But the royalties are quite high.
In this case there is no mad rush. There is the importance of taking ones time, keeping costs under control, including third party and environmental costs. No need to have this insane gold rush because the high-royalities keep the banks out of it to some extent, and no up-front costs, means a slow and sure approach.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 5:07 pm
winston own your own projection mate
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 5:09 pm
Rob in Margs – I put more faith in the EPA and Oz equivalents and industry scientists to determine the actual level of environmental damage than I do in ‘Green’ research. What usually happens is that projections of the relative risk are made, based on any known problems. RR is done for all public health infrastructure issues, such as Nuclear Power Stations, High Temperature Incinerators etc., and it is usually extremely low, so low that it is virtually nil, and liveable in cost-benefit terms (despite Green shrieking). The virtually nil RR seems to apply to fracking from anything I have read – although I am no expert in this. Nor, I suggest, is anyone else here, especially those quoting Green ‘research’. The argument in this thread is informed by the fact that people here don’t trust Green sources, especially given the climate change scientific fiasco. It has taken a thousand blogs to start to bring this fiasco to light, and probably a thousand more are needed on fracking to do the same and get a comprehensive and sensible picture.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 5:09 pm
Sorry about the length of that C&P, mods, but these loons need to be confronted with the reality of their mental illness so they can deal with it…
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 5:09 pm
Twostix, although no-one doubts your researching skills, you may be a little off on this one.
Disparate regional communities across the whole of Australia are now banding together to work collaboratively to deal with the same issues they are all facing through encroachment into our prime agricultural regions by coal and CSG proposals that immediately threaten environment, water resources, communities and existing industries in these regions.
Lock the Gate has become the figurehead of a much much larger movement that has grown exponentially over the past two years.
What i do know from our region, is that it has galvanised the whole community into action and we are now watchful and wary of industry promises of best practices that somehow seem never to make it off the paper and into actual practice.
I know a lot of professionals who work in the mining sector including, environmental scientists, geologists, hydrogeologists, project managers, administrators and also financiers of these projects.
They all agree that although the mining industry is important, mining should not occur everywhere.
So what the Lock the Gate is saying is that it is time to slow down, take a breath, take a good look at what we are doing and make rational choices based upon long term cost/benefit analysis.
What occurs now is that private wealth is being eroded to subsidise speculative ventures in regions that should not be subjected to this activity.
Also that the legislation enacted to deal with these issues is insufficient and does not deal with the whole CSG matter in a satisfactory manner
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:10 pm
oh winston, you have just accurately and thoroughly described the attitude exhibited by LDO operations in their dealings with the local community over the Vasse Coal Project.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:11 pm
“Peter, the shale oil fraccing process castigated in Gaslands is NOT the same as the coal seam fraccing here.”
This may be the case. But the problem is not in the technology. Its wonderful, beautiful technology. The problem is in the way our resource sector is managed. We have government attempting to wet its beak at every stage of the process, with lease deals, royalties and company tax. We have a government who appears to not even so much as understand the importance of clear property titles.
Putting all the public interest in royalties, and royalties alone, and all the sayso with the farmers, will see to it, that the resource is exploited, for the long-term benefit of everyone, and without conflict of interest between any party.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 5:12 pm
jumpnmcar. you would probably have to read their report (which i have) and obtain their source data (which i haven’t)
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:13 pm
LTG is certainly run by the northern rivers ferals*. But there are quite a few farmers that have signed on, particularly north of Tara and Cecil Plains. On the one hand the enemy of my enemy is a good saying, as long as you can work out who the ‘true’ enemy is. On the other hand, to abuse another saying, I think the poor bastards are lying down with the wrong people and will end up getting fleas.
The gripping hand might be that a squeaky wheel just might get a generous Conduct and Compensation Agreement /wink
* As I come from the northern rivers, it has been great having all these Occupy and CSG protests (e.g. Gladstone) going on. The bastards aren’t around to bother me when i visit the parents.
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 5:14 pm
lizzie,
I understand what you are saying, i do not rely on “greens” research, but look at it all.
I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head when you mention the distrust on the part of contributors to this site re what is percieved as “greens” research. On the other side of the coin, we have ample reason to distrust the research provided by “Pro-CSG” sources due to the financial interest that the originators of this research may have.
Point in case, with the recent application for the Vasse Coal Project, there were all sorts of promises about minimal, negligable, unlikely to impact, no impact etc. lots of motherhood statements, but no facts or science to back them up.
Also instead of engaging honestly in the approvals process, they did everything else but, then complained about not being afforded due process and even after the appeals committee looked into their appeals, and it was found they have no basis, these people continued as if the statutory authorities investigation was irrelevant and then sought to weaken the EPA further.
So trust extended to resource companies is very light on the ground, which unfortunately extends to the whole industry and the tactics they employ to superimpose their aspirations over others, irrespective of the damage they do, whether or not the community supports it, and dimissing of any concerns raised that do not support their ambitions.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:22 pm
Anyway, forget about coal seam gas etc for the moment. Basically I think we should be following the Chinese example and building more and better coal-fired power stations for our energy supplies. Our black coal is the cleanest and best in the world, and CO2 is increasingly being shown to be a non-problem, a Year 2K sort of blip.
Build them and they will come.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 5:27 pm
Lock The Gate is nothing but a meta front group for every hard green-left Activist group and the Greens Party.
That is clear.
No farmer who went to a Lock The Gate meeting would sit through two (two!) “Welcome To Country” ceremonies.
Nor would they sin in a group with the following groups also being “represented”:
CONOS (Conservation of North Ocean Shores), Northern Rivers Guardians,
Keerong Concerned Citizens, Gold Coast,
Barrington Gloucester Stratford Preservation Alliance,
Rising Tide Newcastle,
Tweed Climate Clime Action Now,
Keerrong Gas Squad,
Hunter Valley Protection Alliance,
Raise Awareness Collective,
Sydney Residents Against CSG,
Nimbin, Friends of the Earth Brisbane,
Rural & Regional Greens QLD,
Half these groups protest farmers!
This is Lock The Gate, allegedly a “Grass roots” uprising of farmers against Coal Seam Gas.
Uhuh.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 5:29 pm
there is a lot of legislation put in place over the years requiring a resource company to make good their mines etc after the project is complete. Governments also impose bonds which are forfeit if the job isn’t done properly.
Unfortunately, a lot of the time it has been cheaper to forego the bond than clean up. fact of life. So greenies in many cases are right to get all righteous.
In the case of CSG, it will be harder for a CSG company to get away with it. Each well only lasts 20 years, so new wells are always coming on line. A production tenure may cover thousands of hectares, but operating wells only cover a portion of it. As gas production from a well declines a new one elsewhere on the tenure has to come on line to keep production going. So if a CSG company does not clean up old wells behind them, they would lose their Environmental Authority. Without an EA they can’t operate, even if they have a tenure.
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 5:30 pm
Geez Rob, you are still here trying to convince people you know what you are talking about. Still going on about coal mining in Margaret River are we? Now don’t say you’re not anti-mining or anti-CSG because we all know you are. As long as it doesn’t happen near you, right?
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 5:30 pm
I’m sure you are a good bloke Rob, but careful you don’t get up with fleas. If this thread has provided fair warning, that is towards the good.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 5:32 pm
I would much prefer liquid flouride thorium reactors, which coincidentally the Chinese are working on developing as portable systems for export, combined with renewables.
not a lot of profit for mining companies or royalties for governments as thorium does not require enriching, is one of the most abundant elements on the planet, almost no waste, copious amounts of hydrogen gas as a bi-product, can use nuclear waste and decomissioned fisionable material as fuel.
Even Minister Ferguson has mentioned it recently. Why not move directly to that kind of energy rather than investing billions in an industry with such high risks, so socially divisive and only effective over a very short amount of time?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:33 pm
It’s a certainty.
I wrote ages ago that farmers aligning with the urban hardcore political activist green left will end up with them being eaten alive.
It’s already happening.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 5:33 pm
Sancho – try the santos website on http://www.santos.com.au
They also have a site to look at all the water bore data from around Roma area – http://www.santoswaterportal.com.au
Origin Energy and Arrow also have agricultural trials underway where they are increasing crop performance by using CSG water. Arrow has bought a 12,000 acre property called Theten which is mixed crop and grazing.
In the end, graziers and farmers who don’t have CSG wells on their properties will be looking over the fence at those who do have wells (and additional water resources) and are getting better productivity and will be wondering “why can’t I have that”.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 5:33 pm
“…can use nuclear waste and decomissioned fisionable material as fuel”
How can we ever use nuclear waste if your cohorts don’t want anything to do with nuclear power?
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 5:35 pm
Yet you’ve made up your mind.
“Lock the Gate” are extremist zealots by their own words. For example, on their homepage they boast of shutting down a conference by force. By speaking of Lock The Gate so approvingly, you give yourself away. Your pose of being a sensible person who weighs up all the facts is a charade.
Instead, given your support of LTG, you’re clearly a zealot and a fearmonger.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 5:36 pm
Good work twostix, the farmers should NOT trust em.
I hope Katter reads this thread.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 5:37 pm
Rob, are saying that a corporation has human developmental failings?
Dear God in Heaven – confirmation of the Silly Season, or the strength of your skunk weed.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 5:37 pm
“there is a lot of legislation put in place over the years requiring a resource company to make good their mines etc after the project is complete. Governments also impose bonds which are forfeit if the job isn’t done properly.”
But these are all strong-arm, bully-boy tactics, that the government of the day doesn’t need to deal with. They want their lease fees right now.
If you set up the resource allocation system properly, you don’t need to worry about this big-fist micro-management. But the legislation might turn out to be totally useless, as the company of that later date will rely on political donations, to secure a softball approach to the application of this legislation, when the government of that later date, is in power.
The problem comes with government wanting a quick slush fund, rather than decades of sound royalties. We ought to look for fiscal austerity now, and decades of royalties in the future. But this goes against the instincts of the government and its public sector lackeys.
In fact the three big political players (government, banks, and largest corporations) all work against proper management.
There is no substitute for sound resource management. But the government, banks, and bigger players don’t want this.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 5:38 pm
I’m sorry Dex, was i starting to be a little too reasonable for you? I know of the necessity of mining and the resources they provide, but i also know the necessity of preserving our water resources, agricultural productivty and remnant natural environs, seems a reasonable point of view to me.
Lizzie, i applaud your engagement in the discussion but vieled and vague threats never have much impact on me. I do as my conscience and beliefs direct me, as does everyone else here (Well, I would hope that to be the case).
Perhaps the greatest thing i have learnt here is that you cannot reason with some people, however i have also learnt not to write you all off and start assigning abusive labels willy-nilly.
Black Nobility.. thankyou for restoring a little bit of hope.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:38 pm
You still here, Robinmargs. Marathong effort but you’re getting emo I see. Need a tissue, pet?
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 5:41 pm
although, chemicals that can be use….hhmmmm…
http://www.appea.com.au/images/stories/mb_files/APPEA_fraccing_chemicals.pdf
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 5:41 pm
Oops
Earlier it should read …. I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing….
Jc
29 Dec 11 at 5:41 pm
If the Chinese aren’t using it themselves Rob then it’s probably still a bit wonky, just like the big bird killers and the crackable solar panels. Go for the well-proven coal, mate, and ditch the Greenery that surrounds anything else. It’s easy – just rub your thumbs together and say “I don’t want to be green”. The world won’t collapse.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 5:42 pm
geez, Jumpnmycar, don’t you understand how Bob Katter works? Reason is not part of his repertoire. His is the politics of complaint, not governance. So he will work as an echo chamber for any fears regarding CSG.
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 5:43 pm
Rob, as usual you didn’t answer the question. There’s a lot of unanswered questions that you and your cohorts have avoided on this forum.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 5:43 pm
Is this the same guy whose first post in this thread was telling a regular to “just go and die” simply for being for CSG mining?
Or the guy who’s on (runs?) an Anti Coal mining activist site?
You’re not a moderate disinterested person Rob, don’t pretend to be.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 5:44 pm
“Rob, as usual you didn’t answer the question. There’s a lot of unanswered questions that you and your cohorts have avoided on this forum.”
Pitch the questions my way and I’ll do my best to help you out.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 5:45 pm
Daddy Dave, i am neither a zealot or fearmonger. I am trying to understand.
I have waded through a lot of research, news articles, pieces of legislation, websites, posts etc in order to gain that understanding.
From what I have seen,heard and read, i have arrived at the position that as things stand, CSG has too many unanswered questions, has expanded too quickly, the state legislation is unsuited to managing this issue and the approvals process too compromised by vested interests and powerful lobby groups to be able to function effectively.
I support and will continue to support anyone that is fighting to protect their homes, families and communities at risk of being run over and swept away as irrelevant for the benefit of a multinational company or state coffers.
I also support and will continue to support those initiatives that move us away from fossil fuels as a power source as i personally believe that the future rests with renewables and that this diversion into CSG is preventing/delaying that transitioin that i believe needs to occur.
If that renders me something that you dislike and feel the urge to denegrate, then so be it.
At most i feel pity for those that cannot handle this concept.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:47 pm
Don’t forget every time you put two bucks in an Ainsworth poker machine you’re helping to keep the gates locked.
Pickles
29 Dec 11 at 5:47 pm
First off Blacky, you can learn not to confuse CSG with Shale Gas.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 5:47 pm
Amazing, Rob in Margs has gone from being an insulting hard green activist threating to send swarms of his activist friends here and boasting about him and his activist friends shutting down all sorts of things to the being the height of disinterested moderation.
All in less than a day.
Either he was lying this morning or he’s lying now.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 5:50 pm
Dex, i am still waiting for a few answers myself, how about you pan backwards, find them and fill in the gaps?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:51 pm
What were these unanswered questions Dex? They weren’t real and honest questions were they?
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 5:51 pm
What is your timeframe Rob for the uptake of renewables to provide our base load power. You’re demanding the closure of coal-fired power plants so what is your alternative in the meantime? Why do you think so many countries are actively pursuing nuclear power? May it be because there are no viable renewable alternatives sufficient to provide the power our energy-hungry society craves.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 5:51 pm
The only reason that Rob is in favour of Thorium Reactors is because it is in very early development. This gives him and his Greenshirt mates time to mobilise against it.
Never underestimate the Greens, Gab, they’re the inheritors of all the lunatic ideologies of* the nineteen and twentieth centuries. The mask is reasonable, but at the end of their road lies the re-education centers, the gulags and the death camps.
*RR, I think.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 5:52 pm
Rob in Margs – so if your comment that CSG is all about water and aquifers is true, please point out the aquifers that have been damaged by CSG production in the past 16 years in Qld. Surely there would be a long list of damaged and destroyed aquifers by now, given the substantial gas production that has occurred since 1995? The answer is – there have been NO damaged aquifers, there have been no farms destroyed. Why not use the last 16 years of actual data and history to support your argument? The reason you can’t, is that the actual data from the last 16 years blows a big hole in your own case – there is no catastrophe. It doesn’t exist. Farming and CSG can co-exist happily and have done so. And the aquifers and the general environment are none the worse for it. Imagine that, some economic prosperity with no environmental cost.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 5:52 pm
Will the Real Rob please stand up? All the other personalities stay quiet now. Thanks
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 5:52 pm
“You’re demanding the closure of coal-fired power plants so what is your alternative in the meantime?”
When did he make that demand Dex? I suspect you are making this up.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 5:52 pm
Blacky, do some homework buddy and go through all the questions asked on this forum and not answered. Oh, that’s right. You never do your homework on any issue.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 5:54 pm
WTF. I went to see a movie about the end of the world last night. We hit another planet that was once on the other side of the sun.
There is no earthly reason to focus on our long term survivability other raising living standards as that and only that helps doesn’t assure our continuance.
In any event there is no reason why our species will survive when the average rate is around 750K years.
There is nothing that makes us so special, so stop obsessing over this shit as it isn’t healthy.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 5:54 pm
So therefore, the rational response is to shut down mining conferences by force? That doesn’t sound like rational people exploring a brand new issue. That sounds like the same old crusty Marxist greens doing the same old stuff they’ve been doing for half a century.
After all, a conference the one place where you’re most likely to find answers. That’s just shutting down voices you don’t like, that’s all it is.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 5:55 pm
sigh, whatever twostix, No one can say i didn’t try.
BTW, i have had to endure far more vitriol being flung my way than i have given, and for far less reason.
Not lying either way, although that seems to be accusation you raise every 5 seconds, no matter the issue.
Instead, i have taken the time and effort to actually try to engage in a real discussion, or haven’t you noticed my ability to self moderate my responses.
Be sure that i can be as vile mouthed poisonous a troll as JC, but have chosen not to apart from my earlier affront at JC’s vitriol.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:55 pm
Are you serious Blacky? Why do you think there is such a pursuit for natural gas as an energy source. Geez, didn’t think you were that naive.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 5:56 pm
entropy
“”"geez, Jumpnmycar, don’t you understand how Bob Katter works?”"”
I have read his policies. He has always seemed honest,unlike the greens.
he could have done what the other Indys did.
He has always detested the greens, Its puzzling.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 5:56 pm
“a good indicator of the Trollflood we’re experiencing.”
Winston i think you left out the ecoharpies ‘self agrandisement and sense of moral superiority whilst being abject hypocrits’ assessment.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 5:57 pm
Yeay Rob, you support Gillard’s stupid carbon dioxide tax as ‘the right thing to do’ too no doubt, and in all your research have you never come across the problem base load power presents to ‘renewables’? Not too bright of you here I wit, Rob. Try rubbing those thumbs together harder for enlightenment.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 5:57 pm
This is boilerplate anti-capitalist NIMBYism.
That would be any party that supports capitalism, nuclear power, pharmacological research, and cheap energy.
Let’s look around and find such a party. For the good of the species.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 5:58 pm
Greens don’t believe in democracy unless it suits their own ends.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 5:58 pm
Peter J,
2 things,
The CSG operations in QLD over the time period you mentioned are generally isolated and no way near the scale that is being implemented today and with the potential increase in cumulative impacts that this presents.
It can take decades for damage to aquifers to become apparent, in some cases, due to the slow movements of some of the deep aquifers, you can be looking at 100s of years before the impact is evident.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 5:59 pm
Good point, Peter.
But perhaps Blacky and Rob could provide some evidence of damage done.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 5:59 pm
As soon as Bob Katter went to the courthouse to support Drew “I’ll never tell the truth” Hutton, I lumped him in with the rest of this uninformed mob.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 6:01 pm
Lizzie, the only time rob rubs his thumbs together is when he contemplates what other industry he can be a bansturbator for.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 6:01 pm
“Blacky, do some homework buddy and go through all the questions asked on this forum and not answered. Oh, that’s right. You never do your homework on any issue.”
No you didn’t have any unanswered questions, and you have no honest question to pitch. You simply lied and claimed that I didn’t know the difference between two processes.
Let me try again. Do you have any questions? Yes or no?
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:02 pm
…in other words, there is no apparent damage. A nice, unfalsifiable, unproveable claim.
This is getting too easy, Rob. I think you’re nearly done.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 6:02 pm
‘……you can be looking at 100s of years before the impact is evident.”
This is absolute fucking horseshit dressed up to look like research.
There is no fucking evidence so these fuckers stick a few hundred years to risk before we see a problem. What a bunch of dishonest turds.
couple of 100 years… what the flying fuck.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 6:02 pm
ahahahahaha
Rob are you related to Tim Flannery?
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 6:04 pm
“But perhaps Blacky and Rob could provide some evidence of damage done.”
Why would there be all this damage? The industry has been in a trickle, and has only hit gold-rush status recently. There is simply no substitute to getting resource allocation policy in Australia right.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:04 pm
Blacky – you’re as lazy as they come. I recall asking a lifetime ago if you are anti-fossil fuels? No one seemed to want to answer that one.
BTW, how can you know the difference if you keep using CSG instead of Shale Gas to refer to the US. Yeah, I’m really lying buddy. Get a clue, then we’ll discuss.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 6:06 pm
Okay so you’re saying there’s no damage, Blacky. Fine.
Lovely motherhood statement. It’s a keeper.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 6:07 pm
“Rob are you related to Tim Flannery?”
Where is this coming from? Its pretty simple. There was a world war one policy that cut landowners out of resource management. Farmers that is. Was that the right way to go or was it for emergency purposes? Secondly there is the inherent tendency of banks, government, and the real big shots to get resource allocation policy wrong. We need to correct this historical miss-step, and these institutional biases, and so we need to get resource allocation right.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:07 pm
“The industry has been in a trickle”
Are you taking the piss, it’s been running for 16 years.
Carpe Jugulum
29 Dec 11 at 6:07 pm
Yes its been running for 16 years. The industry has been running for sixteen years, in a trickle as I already pointed out, and now there is a sort of gold rush fever looming. I had it right the first time. Sort yourself out.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:08 pm
ok BS meter all full up now. I find it astounding that as soon as someone starts to actually discuss the issues rather than flinging shit, you all round on them (and no, i am not refering to myself, i knew this forum would be hostile).
I guess that our point of view is too different to find a common ground, so be it.
At least i gave it a good shot.
And i will continue to do so, but not in this forum. Good luck to you all.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 6:09 pm
It’s been around for 16 years and only now are the greenies protesting and disseminating scary stories about CSG? What a lazy bunch.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 6:09 pm
So here you are. You are ganging up on these farmers, and its THEIR LAND. So here you are disrespecting property rights, calling these farmers evil names like “greens” and so forth, and you cannot even get your head around serious long-term financial planning, as it relates to the resources industry, or the importance of clear property titles.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:11 pm
Rob – of course you can’t continue. It must be a change when someone presents a different point of view and aren’t bullied into accepting that view.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 6:11 pm
The vitriol being chucked at you, Rob, you poor little petal, is because you came on this morning at 0926 hoping one of us would die. You have then switched personnas to Reasonable Rob, and have refused to acknowledge the quote above since.
Just like a chameleon.
Go back and read #3 Pathological Lying.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 6:11 pm
Rob in Margs – standard old answers from you when presented with data that does not support your argument. My training is in subsurface fluid flow (oil, gas and water). CSG production will provide a pressure drawdown emenating from from the CSG well. The speed of movement of the pressure transient (pulse) will be proportional to a lot of factors, one of them being the permeability of the formation. Because water is effectively incompressible, the transient travels very fast and wells a kilometre apart will measure transients travelling between them in days or a few weeks. Your claim that it will take decades for damage to aquifers to be apparent is way off the mark – no technical basis for that claim – just someone who can’t explain 16 years of good CSG performance who is grasping at straws to rationalise violent opposition. So under your claims, if there is still no damage seen in the next 50 years you will still be claiming “damage in 100s of years from now”. Garbage mate. You need some data to support your arguement – in 100s of years from now is not good enough.
What does CSG operations in Qld being “generally isolated” mean? “The whole bloody country is generally isolated”. So what if the scale is growing? That is not what we are talking about – you claimed substantial damage to aquifers and I pointed out a fact that in the first 16 years of CSG production there has not been any damage.
The fact is “16 years of CSG production in Qld and no damage to aquifers seen and agriculture still co-existing”. So where is the issue and the problem?
You anti gas people need to turn the power off to your house and get a wind turbine and solar panel on the roof and stop being hypocritical. Learn to ride a bike too and stop consuming fossil fuels. Practice what you preach – how do you expect us to take you seriously if you won’t stop using the “evil things” that you want to shut down yourselves. Show some example here.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 6:12 pm
“Rob – of course you can’t continue. It must be a change when someone presents a different point of view and aren’t bullied into accepting that view.”
You don’t have a serious point of view, you have no serious questions, and you have no serious argument. Are you so fond of poor resource allocation and cloudiness with regards to property titles? No. That we be heaping upon you far deeper praise then you deserve. You are just going with the tribal position.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:13 pm
They’ve been whipped up by their ringmaster, Alan Jones.
C.L.
29 Dec 11 at 6:13 pm
Don’t slam the door on the way out Rob, you doofus.
What you’re basically saying is that there is no problem as 100′s years is no a problem.
Do you honestly think our technology wouldn’t be so advanced by then that these things simply wouldn’t be problems.
However it’s obvious it’s all made up.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 6:13 pm
Fair enough Carpe – I left a few out that weren’t germane to the point, but missed those.
They can be 10 and 11.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 6:14 pm
“Rob in Margs – standard old answers from you when presented with data that does not support your argument. My training is in subsurface fluid flow (oil, gas and water). CSG production will provide a pressure drawdown emenating from from the CSG well. The speed of movement of the pressure transient (pulse) will be proportional to a lot of factors, one of them being the permeability of the formation. ”
Wonderful wonderful stuff. Brilliant. So does that mean the farmers ought not have the ultimate property rights? Does that mean that the rest of the community should not be cut in by royalties and by royalties alone?
Brilliant technical reassurances, when the problem is not a technical one.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:15 pm
Blacky still hasn’t answered my question. What a SURPRISE!!
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 6:17 pm
“It’s been around for 16 years and only now are the greenies protesting and disseminating scary stories about CSG?”
This is delusional. Are you talking about greenies? Or are you talking about farmers? Its as embarrassing listening to you people, as it would be to listen to a bunch of tone-deaf people trying to form a choir.
Its their land. Their land their choice. What is wrong with having royalties and royalties alone, to cut the rest of us in? There is nothing wrong with royalties. There is everything wrong with lease fees, company taxes, and the heavy hand of government regulation.
Rob aside, this is nazi-economics, that is being preached here. Nazi-economics.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:19 pm
Blacky. I’m sure you wouldn’t have a problem about landholder’s rights if we were talking wind turbines and not gas wells.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 6:19 pm
“Blacky still hasn’t answered my question. What a SURPRISE!!”
What a giveaway. You didn’t have a question before. You don’t have a question now. So you were lying the entire time. Mate, if you want to do the tribal thing, do it in Africa. Because here in Australia, we used to stand for certain things, one of them being clear property titles. Its the farmers land. So its the farmers choice. This is not aborting viable babies I’m talking about. This is getting resource allocation right.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:22 pm
believe what you want people.
I sincerely hope that this industry does not cause any of the problems that we are concerned about and that you all end up justified.
Not because i care about you or I being right. Merely that i hope we don’t end up with polluted aquifers and decimated agricultural land.
How you will all feel if it the percieved risks do turn out to be the case is not mine to consider.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 6:23 pm
Black Nobility – you came in late and missed the point. Rob in Margs claimed earlier that the CSG problem was simply all down to aquifers and damage. I simply took a few mins to prove him wrong and show that those claiming aquifer doom hate when someone mentions the past 16 years of production performance while aquifers remain healthy. They trot out the garbage about “100s of years from now”. I guess however, whatever the CSG companies are doing, it cant be too bad if we are not going to see it for hundreds of years. Those that criticise CSG like to arm wave and try to scare the rural community, but are always light on facts and any data or science. The other one they trot out is the “precautionary principle” which I think means gets another committee and hire some bureauracrats and take 20 years to think about it while many rural communities slowly slide into economic oblivion.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 6:23 pm
“Blacky. I’m sure you wouldn’t have a problem about landholder’s rights if we were talking wind turbines and not gas wells.”
Another lie! What have I been telling you? The whole lot of you acting like a bunch of mindless, territorial, baboons, when this question is about the ill-will and nastiness that can arise when you ignore the need for clear property-titles. Its the farmers land. Its not the job of grubby little public servants to sell out the farmers, in order to provide a slush-fund for their rampaging political masters.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:24 pm
I trust our new Green friends would also support the Thompsons fight?
Woolfe
29 Dec 11 at 6:25 pm
Blacky you are both blind and dumb. Let’s hope stupid ends with you.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 6:25 pm
So Blackie, if you believe “Its their land. Their land their choice.” Then should the various vegetation acts be rescinded?
Should the farmers be allowed to harvest the kangaroos that graze on their land?
Should they be allowed to burn off / clear vegetation as they see fit?
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 6:27 pm
Farmers are just useful idiots in this issue. Yes, it’s wrong that they don’t get a share of the spoils of mining on their land. So they can be used as foils if you are anti-mining.
No it’s not. Perhaps it should be, but it’s not. Frankly, I’d like to see the farmers get a cut. The divide-and-conquer ploy would be quickly neutralised.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 6:29 pm
Peter J.
Just one last piece of clarificatin. The precautionary Principle as enshrined in the WA EP Act states:
“Lack of scientific certainty is no justification for delaying action to prevent damage to the environment from occuring”
In laymans terms it means that if there is doubt, leave it out.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 6:29 pm
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 6:31 pm
The precautionary principle is the refuge of the fearmonger who has no evidence for his fear.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 6:32 pm
Face it Dex. You are a Stalinist moron. Clearly you make a living off the sweat of another man’s brow. But a farmer does not do this. He has his property, and he’s self-employed. And the choice of how to use his land is a matter for him, and for no-one else. Least of all for some dirty little public sector minion, attempting to leach quick lease-fees off big shots.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:33 pm
“So Blackie, if you believe “Its their land. Their land their choice.” Then should the various vegetation acts be rescinded?
Should the farmers be allowed to harvest the kangaroos that graze on their land?
Should they be allowed to burn off / clear vegetation as they see fit?”
Obviously.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:35 pm
Rob in Margs – you sound like you trained as a lawyer. There is doubt in everything in life. I can’t guarantee I will make it home safely tonight, although I have a fair expectation I will – but I can’t be 100% certain. The term used in CSG in Qld is “adaptive management”. Studies up front have shown that the CSG producers can expect to have zero or negligible impact on aquifers. So let’s go forward on that basis, but also do a lot of monitoring to make sure (drill monitoring wells, take samples, measure water levels etc). If we get a result that we don’t like, then we need to adapt the plan to adjust for what we found. For example, the Qld Water Commission (QWC) requires CSG companies to “make good” any impacts. So aquifer impact is not anticipated, but if it did happen somewhere, then water would need to be er-injected back into that aquifer to make good the impact. Its not complicated.
If mankind downed tools on anything we do that has uncertainty or doubt, we would never have found the earth was round and Armstrong would never have got to the moon. Sometimes we need to do the studies, make a plan, execute and then adjust along the way if we need to. In the past 16 years in Qld aquifers, no adjustment has been needed.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 6:35 pm
um Daddy, the Precautionary Principle was required to be inserted into all states EP Acts through global agreements reached with other industrialised countries.
It is part of the LAW and one of the five environmental priniciples enshrined in LAW. It is also a legitimate mechanism by which a proposal can be determined to be environmentally unacceptable.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 6:37 pm
“Face it Dex. You are a Stalinist moron.”
Stalinist. Get stuffed in trying to associate me with someone who killed millions of people. Geez, it’s a measure of how low people can truly go. Have a Happy New Year by the way.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 6:39 pm
“Studies up front have shown that the CSG producers can expect to have zero or negligible impact on aquifers.”
“STUDIES”. Studies by whom? By public servants wishing to please their employers to find an excuse for violating property titles, and generating quick slush funds? As opposed to an enlightened government, practicing extreme fiscal austerity NOW and setting up a wondrous royalties stream decades into the future?
If there is a gold-rush they could do damage. If things are handled well, and in accordance with the high royalties and strong property titles model, there is almost no chance that they will do damage. Should we eshew excellence in resource management, and strength in property titles, over some technical wishbone?
Excellence is its own reward.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:41 pm
Regardless, I stand by the statement. Essentially, your strategy is to sow fear and doubt, then use that fear and doubt to shut it down, citing the “precautionary principle.”
Facts not required.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 6:42 pm
Dex you are a dropkick. I see no questions, no argument, nothing. I just see some hot-in-tot, putting his finger into the air, to see which way the tribal winds are blowing.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:42 pm
Blacky – the EIS for each of the Gladstone LNG schemes ran into thousands of pages. The QGC EIS had over 400 people and organisations contribute to the final report. The project was then given about 1300 state and federal government conditions and requires about 87 permits before the project will be completed. An average EIS process takes about 2 years to work through. Some of the people contributing to these EIS documents are world class hydrologist and environmentalists. People like you throw stones because of your ignorance of the millions of dollars and millions of man hours that go into projects like this.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 6:45 pm
Daddy,
You really have no understand of Environmental Protection legislation or the need for this legislation.
My experience is that these CSG and Coal companies also believe that facts are not required. Particularly so in terms of supporting their claims in exploration and mining lease approval applications.
Adaptive management is akin to setting the barn on fire, with the horses still in it, without a firetruck standing by and then seeing how many buckets of sand you can throw on the fire while the horses are crisping.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 6:46 pm
“Facts not required.”
He’s not a soothsayer Dave. He’s a farmer. Or if he is a farmer, he is one who stands to have his natural property titles muddied, violated and sullied, by an unholy alliance of public sector leaches, bankers, and big shots.
Any one of us is right to get really pissed off when our property titles are being screwed with. Get out the shotgun right to get pissed off.
How many of you circle-jerk baboons are currently in favour of the TSA in the US? Are you all happy about that? You sound like you would be.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:47 pm
OK Black Nobility, I’ll help dad cut down all those bloody trees on the farm then?
And then everyone come over to my place and get rid of that damned fig full of bats and batshit and give me back half of the harbour view I once had. Then we’ll move over to West Head and make it the sort of place it used to be when you took international visitors there to admire the Pittwater panorama before the Greenies slimed onto the Council and grew it all out right in front of the lookout.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 6:47 pm
Peter J,
I also know that most minerals and resources departments do not read these EIs’s or have the resources to actually monitor these proposals to ensure that these conditions are being abided by. You can have all the best promises in the world, but if you don’t actually live up to them, a million conditions on a proposal would be worth absolutely nothing.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 6:48 pm
Sure. You got it Elizabeth. If these various environmental values are authentically worth-it, then they ought to be attained by an investment made by the entirety of the community. The worst and most costly way to achieve these environmental goals is to attempt to hide the cost, by singling out the farmer, and violating his property titles.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:49 pm
This is really a clever wedge tactic, using the farmers – salt of the earth – as the spearhead for green activism. I salute the tactical brilliance of you and LTG.
This is because the law doesn’t compensate farmers sufficiently for mining. This is a very elegant exploitation of that. Still. It will be ironic if the farmers go into bat for greens when they bent over and took it from behind on the blossoming of land clearing, shooting, and land use regulations.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 6:52 pm
Blacky you truly are a tosser. I asked a question, do you know what a question mark is, it’s this symbol ?. I’ll show you again, ?. If you read from the beginning you may get a clue; I said may, not will.
Tribal winds? What crap are you expousing now? Oh, I showed the question mark symbol again. Just wanted to let you know.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 6:52 pm
Our entire community has already determined that our environmental values (as in our environment and the ecology, community and industry it supports) are of such high quality that we prefer to invest in what we have, than to risk it all for CSG or Coal, whose profits and products go to overseas companies while diminishing the value of what the community currently holds.
I dare any of you to come to Margaret River, stand in the main street and lecture people about refusing to allow the coal and csg industry to get established here.
You may find that your reception is as warm and inviting as that received by people who have a differnt view on this forum
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 6:54 pm
Is Blacky Bird?
C.L.
29 Dec 11 at 6:55 pm
“but if you don’t actually live up to them, a million conditions on a proposal would be worth absolutely nothing.”
Right. Its not likely to work real good, without lawyers, departments, and rancour, because its not the product of a natural and harmonious system for going about things.
And why should we be paying for all this oversight and all these bully-boy threats? You get the property-titles, and royalties right in the first place, and all this nastiness and government-business interaction doesn’t have to take place.
You don’t want to give out property titles on a quid pro quo basis. You want to enforce property titles in a more natural and harmonious way than that.
I cannot but see this as being very simple. The farmer has all the sayso. The public has a great whacking royalty cut. Who could object? Except people who do not wish to earn the salaries they get paid?
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:55 pm
“Blacky you truly are a tosser. I asked a question….”
No you didn’t.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 6:57 pm
So how much is farming disturbed by the extraction process? How much of a property is affected and how long is it out of farm production, what is the recovery time? etc. What is the financial return in relation to the return from farming? What if the process is carried out during a long drought?
Rafe
29 Dec 11 at 6:57 pm
good questions Rafe. Perhaps these are among the questions that should have received answers before the gas rush was allowed to get a head of legislation
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 6:59 pm
“the Precautionary Principle was required to be inserted into all states EP Acts through global agreements reached with other industrialised countries. It is part of the LAW ”
Well, who’da thunk that? What a great piece of international diplomacy. The things they do when you are not looking. So it’s part of the Law eh? Just like the fucking carbon dioxide tax is too. And just about as useful. An open slather permit, naturally.
Perhaps I should get really annoyed like those farmers.
Nah. Double scotch, or a beer?
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 7:01 pm
“This is really a clever wedge tactic, using the farmers – salt of the earth ”
No no no. Don’t try that on. Its THEIR LAND. Get it! Their land. Its not about them being salt of the earth. Its about the fact that its not the governments land, nor the land of the big shot extractor, not the land of the public servant. The land belongs to the farmer, and to no-one else. These are property titles not to be violated by some jerk in Canberra, attempting to raise an unrighteous slush fund for the government of the day.
This is a very simple matter. Its true that the farmer, and his antecedents did not improve the value of the stuff deep underneath his own land. This reality is taken care of, practically, morally, and in full, by setting up a long-term royalties stream to the public.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:02 pm
“Double scotch, or a beer?”
Huh?? Beer with a scotch chaser!
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 7:03 pm
“the Precautionary Principle was required to be inserted into all states EP Acts through global agreements reached with other industrialised countries. It is part of the LAW ”
Sounds like Agenda 21.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 7:04 pm
“So how much is farming disturbed by the extraction process?”
Very easy question to answer rafe.
“So how much is farming disturbed by the extraction process?
If the farmer has all the sayso, and the public have a great whack of royalties, then farming is not going to be the least bit disturbed by the extraction process. Its really as simple as that.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:05 pm
black and rob give up, half these people dont even live in australia. They are a great example of why we need to be careful of the pro mining lobby. been on this blog all day and not one of them has said a rational thing yet . but if you just want to sling shit its great fun . black your a little to educated to waste your time in this crowd . poopy heads what aussie bloke uses that kind of lingo
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 7:07 pm
“half these people dont even live in australia. ”
Bollocks. Fat lot you know.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 7:09 pm
“Our entire community has already determined that our environmental values (as in our environment and the ecology, community and industry it supports) are of such high quality that we prefer to invest in what we have,”
I’d prefer to vote you out of this nonsense and let you sink or swim in your own environmental economy, without any welfare from us.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 7:10 pm
Black Nobility I think you’re in furious agreement with most of the people here.
You’re just being extraordinarily obtuse and so getting people’s backs up.
There’s few here who would argue against farmers having strengthened private property rights.
The Greens and Lock The Gate aren’t arguing for private property rights – it’s a ruse, a cover for their anti mining agenda.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 7:13 pm
Think of the hill-billy bears. That old cartoon strip. Now imagine if the farmer has the entirety of the property rights, yet no royalties. Then we would have this bidding war for farm properties, and a lot of unjust enrichment for a lot of farmers. Under this circumstance, would the hill-billy bears care if the trucks came in quickly, and ran right over the fences, leaving deep tracks in the ground, and if the sludge and run-off was poured down their drinking-well, leaving them to drink Perrier? No of course not.
The farmer didn’t homestead that which lies beneath. But yet the requirement of clear property rights puts them in charge. So with the high royalties there is no bidding war for this land, and no fast-bucks for the farmer. But many farmers would become multimillionaires out of the process just the same. It would be the ones who took the softly softly approach. The ones who dealt with good partners, the both of them bent on going about things patiently and keeping costs low.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:14 pm
Who doesn’t?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 7:14 pm
“Black Nobility I think you’re in furious agreement with most of the people here.”
Now that is more like it. You like righteousness in property titles when you hear it, but somehow you guys always seem to put that into the background, and you follow the big shots around, virtually begging them to let you wash their undies for them.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:16 pm
Hey Gab, problem solved. HIA just returned from shops with the goodies and handed me an ice cold stubbie. Saw from the look on my face I was dealing with some pompous git and needed it. Scotch chaser to come.
A true blue Aussie solution, Thruther Fairy.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 7:16 pm
Bird;
How the hell did you get back on here? This black nobility schtick is going too far. You’re a red neck.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 7:17 pm
The comments on this site are a disgrace. The way some of you people put others down because of what they believe is totally un-Australian. Try debating with some respect for others and you may achieve more. I personally won’t waste any more time either reading these comments or actually making a comment about CSG.
Denise
29 Dec 11 at 7:17 pm
jc hows that silver mine in the states working for you .
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 7:21 pm
“black and rob give up, half these people dont even live in australia.”
No sooner or later THEY are going to have to give up. And I don’t believe you are correct. Its not a foreigner problem. Its a tribal problem. They don’t stand up for the things they purport to believe in, as they ought to, because they have a somewhat cohesive mindset, and being cohesive, that mindset is thereby open to manipulation.
So they always seem to lurch towards the political powers in the nation. The government, the public servants, the banks, and the corps that are so big they are important to political donations, and to the media.
No-one sticks up for the small businessmen and for the farmer. And we have to get used to thinking about these guys first, in the middle, and last. In the morning, and at the going down of the sun. We have to have the habit of looking out for small business, since everything is skewed in favour of all others.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:23 pm
It doesn’t matter if you think it is the farmers land or not. The fact remains that anything under the top soil is the state’s. I never said I agree with it but it’s the same for any person living in the Brisbane suburbs also.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 7:25 pm
“Black Nobility” isn’t so much a racial term JC. People tell me that you are descended from Moorish invaders. But that would scarcely make you part of the Venetian black nobility.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:26 pm
“It doesn’t matter if you think it is the farmers land or not. ”
That is right. It doesn’t matter, what you, me, or anyone thinks about it. Its the farmers land. And no lawyer can RIGHTLY screw with his ownership of that land. I told you you were Stalinist commie filth. Or perhaps I forgot to tell you as much.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:28 pm
As it was pointed out earlier Blacky, you are so far away from the mindset of LTGA & the Greens that it’s only that landholder’s rights can be used for their own agenda of ending the use of all fossil fuels (with no alternative) they they purport to care. As I said earlier, if it was the erection of wind farms and not gas wells, trust me, they wouldn’t give a toss about the farmer.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 7:28 pm
” I never said I agree with it but it’s the same for any person living in the Brisbane suburbs also.”
That is right. We sell the farmer down river, we are selling our own selves out. This matter of clarity in property titles is a matter of vital interest to us all.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:29 pm
I was reading through the some Lock The Gates Minutes from a meeting at Muswellbrook and noticed that one of the places represented was “Margaret River, WA”. Which seemed rather out of place for a meeting held out in Musswellbrook NSW.
Now Rob from Margaret River said he got sent here by a Lock The Gate distribution.
Hmmm.
Rob if I find out you’re actually heavily involved in Lock The Gate it’s going to be most amusing after all your furious “moderation” and Hi Alanism this afternoon.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 7:31 pm
Blacky, you can go and fuck yourself. Don’t associate me with a person who killed MILLIONS of innocent people. This is not land or trees we are talking about, this is MILLIONS of innocent people. So go fuck yourself for a second time you ignorant dickhead.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 7:31 pm
Dex at 7.28pm.
No mate. You are just talking jibber. Just idiocy. No-one is going to believe you. You sound like you are a paid lobbyist, with that sort of fantasy-filler post. Give it up. Clock out for the night.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:31 pm
You ARE bird, aren’t you sweetie? Small businessmen and big bad banks, has to be bird. Shame about the Venetian black nobility. Kinda sexy, that was.
ABC news just mentions that Australian birds are in high demand. Try a life in customs evasion, birdie.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 7:32 pm
Bird? Oh, okay, so we really are in the thread of doom category now.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 7:34 pm
no dex there will be no fracking in metropolitan areas because when the farmers started saying no and the city dwellers found out they had mining leases under there properties , the government quickly ruled out csg in town for fear of how suburbia would react thats qld nsw is a different story
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 7:34 pm
Rob in margs – in Qld we have the LNG enforcement unit with a staff of 50+. And they are only a small part of the Dept of Environment and Resource Management. They regularly do site and office inspections. They have people on their team who specialise in hydrology so they know that they are talking about. Plenty of teeth. Plenty of rules and plenty of enforcement. They investigate every water bore claim from every landowner. Last I heard they had looked at 71 complaints from water bore owners and their investigations concluded none of them was from CSG operations. The CSG industry in east Aus is exceptionally highly regulated by any standard anywhere in the world.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 7:35 pm
Like I said Blacky, go fuck yourself. Paid loobyist my arse. Not happy when someone expresses an opinion contrary to your own are we. Why don’t you tell someone who gives a shit because that’s what your shouting to the heavens has achieved. Shit.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 7:35 pm
Lizzie Lizzie Lizzie. If you want to talk to this birdie, you could always email him you know. But I don’t believe he would be any part of any Venetian Black Nobility. Except as a way of getting pistols on the inside, and snipers on the outside, and kind of thinning their numbers down some.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:36 pm
Dex, to put it in terminology your limited intelletct can understand “how about you go fuck yourself as your simlutaneously both a massive cunt and a big dickhead.” lol…
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 7:38 pm
Fairy
Re silver mine… basically I’m down about 20% on a very small position. I’ll get out at around 35%.
I don’t really have much on at the moment. I have a few large cap stocks and a refinery as a special play. This is my current position ….what the hell
GE
Proc & Gamble,
Western Refining very large pos now
Total Frog oil compnay
Wells Fargo
Short BHP
I have a load of TZA which is leveraged 3 times as a bearish view on US small cap stocks which is traded on an logarithm I bought.
I’m very short Euro and have been for a little while but will square this up over the next day or so
That’s it, that’s my entire portfolio. And of course EXK.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 7:39 pm
now wait for the vomit to gush forth
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 7:39 pm
lol Blacky now confirmed as Birdy. His weakness for women outs him everytime.
You’re such a Lothario, Graeme
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 7:40 pm
that’s my trading account. I have an investment account, but I will keep those stocks forever and not touch them.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 7:40 pm
“The CSG industry in east Aus is exceptionally highly regulated by any standard anywhere in the world.”
Is this what matters have come to in this allegedly libertarian site? Since when did we want the big fist of exceptional and overblown regulation? Is this a good thing? Being exceptionally highly regulated? A good thing Peter? Something to brag about? Those girls goose-stepping in North Korea, are also exceptionally highly regulated. Only some politician who wanted exceptionally exorbitant political donations would see this as an exceptionally righteous scenario.
Get the property titles, and the royalties right, and you won’t need to regulate your fellow humans in any exceptional way.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:41 pm
so jc are you a septic tank or not
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 7:42 pm
Rob in Margs – your “overseas profits” bit is a bit old. Half the rural agricultural output in Qld goes overseas. Aus has to sell stuff overseas if we want to import things – need to pay for stuff we buy. 2 of the 3 big LNG schemes for Gladstone are being run by Aussie companies listed on the ASX- Santos and Origin. Any value generated from these companies goes into Aussie super funds and makes people like you and I have a happier retirement. So your xenophobia about “overseas profits” is just another way to try to pour cold water on an industry that is fundamentally going to make the earth’s environment better (by replacing dirty brown asian coal for cleaner burning natural gas) and also make the average Australian better off by growing the Australian economy – particularly those people in rural communities that are otherwise on their knees.
If all people in Margaret River share your views as you claim, then I guess you are OK if anyone who works in the gas industry abstains from buying Margaret River wines? Perhaps the gas industry should have a policy on Marlborough as its a lot easier to do business in NZ these days.
Peter J
29 Dec 11 at 7:42 pm
Hey Bird, Goldman Sachs is going to report great earnings at the end of Dec. Get ready. You’ll love the result.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 7:43 pm
“lol Blacky now confirmed as Birdy. His weakness for women…”
Gab. Stop making these slanderous and baseless statements against innocent third parties and give Lizzie “birdies” email address will you. We want to move forward in this debate. Move forward. Move ahead.
Onward.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:43 pm
Our Rob here likes to read The Green Left Weekly.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/49134
Real salt of the earth rural man this one is.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 7:45 pm
Peter J, you need to refresh yourself about the ownership structure of mineral resources in this country.. Our coal now belongs to the Chinese and the Indians, the Japanese own our coal power generating assets.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 7:45 pm
No Fairy. I lived there for 16 odd years and got used to their stock market, so I became more US stock centric.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 7:45 pm
“Goldman Sachs is going to report great earnings at the end of Dec. Get ready. You’ll love the result.”
They stole the money. Why would birdie, or anyone else be happy about it? Slur thee not thy moorish heritage. Moorish heritage! exclaim thee?
Wrinkle not thy sable brow at me JC. The civilised man does not approve of the gloatings of thieves or those that worship the quicksand upon which they walk.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 7:47 pm
“give Lizzie “birdies” email address will you.”
No. I’m not sharing that with any other female.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 7:47 pm
Not your Rob Twostix. I wouldn’t piss on you if you rubbed your two sticks together and caught on fire. I would hire some disease riddled prostitute to do that
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 7:48 pm
I also know that most minerals and resources departments do not read these EIs’s or have the resources to actually monitor these proposals to ensure that these conditions are being abided by. You can have all the best promises in the world, but if you don’t actually live up to them, a million conditions on a proposal would be worth absolutely nothing.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 6:48 pm
LIAR.
I know Bob Tinapple in the WA Dept. Petroleum.
I know the audit team leaders. They work their butts off on things like the EIS and associated compliance activities.
That’s because they are legally liable if they do not, and because the WA Govt’s revenue stream from the industry depends on it.
You Lie.
M
29 Dec 11 at 7:51 pm
black there all paranoid here. if there not screaming lier they think your some one else or from lock the gate . get this dickheads plenty of mainstream people dont trust the word of mining giants why because they have a bad global track record and have no one to blame for that but themselves.
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 7:52 pm
Moving on, Birdie. Rob has finally discovered his inner hermaphrodite. It’s been a long afternoon of fun, Rob. Ta ta.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 7:53 pm
Are we sure Truther Fairy is not Homer?
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 7:54 pm
Craig? Is that you, Thommo?
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 7:57 pm
M.. your ignorant and naieve.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 7:57 pm
“No. I’m not sharing that with any other female. ”
I’m sure this fellow will be torn both ways, and in two minds about such a revelation. He would appreciate the girlyness behind such a claim.
Anyway. We must try and stay on track:
“Our coal now belongs to the Chinese and the Indians, the Japanese own our coal power generating assets.”
Our resource allocation is so dysfunctional that all the value from our resource paternity is hard-wired to go to the deepest pockets. The deepest pockets are not BHP or Rio, and if they were, the principle that is driving how the industry works, would see to it, that the shares of these companies were owned by foreigners.
But even putting aside the idea of foreigners owning our stuff via the shares of our companies ……… there are deeper pockets then BHP. The Chinese communists being one of these deeper pockets.
So our view of free enterprise has become so warped that communist nationalisation of our gear is held to be “free enterprise.” And effectively much of what our resource companies do, is to put lipstick on a pig, so as to sell it to a player with the deeper pockets.
The argument of this thread is only a subset of the argument in favour of righteousness in property titles more generally. This is a matter of extreme national urgency.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 8:00 pm
Yeah, you stupid prat. Like I don’t work in freaking compliance.
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:00 pm
lol Let’s fix that up for you, Robinmarg.
“M…you’re ignorant and naive”
There. No, no need to thank me. All part of the service at the Cat.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 8:02 pm
oh, so it is your fault that we have a toxic plume making it’s way to the blackwood river courtesty of failed compliance requirements attributed to BHP’s Beenup Mineral Sands Mine. Does that mean that we can sue you in approximately 3 years time when it kills off the fish in the River?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:03 pm
black your making to much sense for this crowd to handle
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 8:04 pm
Mineral sand is petroleum, eh?
Idiot.
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:07 pm
Black makes a lot of sense. Does the magnificent one have his own blog, fairy queen?
fill the cup
29 Dec 11 at 8:08 pm
Compliance idiot.. you said that’s what you do? and you vouch for the efficacy of the wa Department of Minerals and Petroleum? note the title.. same department.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:10 pm
So, raise it as a breach under the Act. Done that, clown?
Nice bait and switch, tho, about you lying thru your teeth re EIS.
Anything to avoid that – quick change the subject.
I know you. You’re that brain-dead greenie whackjob who was whining that auction of the gas blocks deep to sea off Leeuwin would pollute Marg river from under the sea floor in 1 kilometre of water and 250k away
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:16 pm
Rob – you’re a dick also mate. Anyone who associates me with a mass murderer on a discussion about CSG can go fuck themselves also.
Dex
29 Dec 11 at 8:17 pm
um no loser.. that was Rob Alder of No Oil for South West Beachers
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:17 pm
Dex, lets wait and see if your CSG heroes manage to commit mass murder through their activities, although i don’t think you would equate the extinction of species and destroyed habitat in your death toll calculations
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:19 pm
Bull.
You’re Alder. Too quick to deny, and answer on the tip of your tongue. Less than one minute to respond.
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:22 pm
oh and m it was raised as a breach, the mine was closed down, the company tried to do some surface remediation, however nothing is going to stop that toxic acidic plume from reaching the river and the company will not be required to pay compensation for the impacts that will have
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:22 pm
CL, Lizzie, I think you’re right.
It is Bird. The writing patterns are similar, as well as the rising tone. By 2200 he’ll be spitting venom and swearing like an Arab.
Robs just a zoned out methamphetamine smoker who reads Green Left Weekly, specially flown over to the Margaret River area by winged koalas.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 8:23 pm
lol M, just because i know who the players are down here does not mean i am all of them. think what you like, but again your wrong.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:23 pm
winston, if that is the images that present themselves in your imagination, perhaps its you that need to put down that crack pipe
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:25 pm
Rob Alder
“Umm Entropy, i am actually a business owner, you know.. capitalist.. “
Here is your business.
http://www.baystore.com.au/profile/RobertAlder
No gas rally:
http://www.margaretrivermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/no-gas-rally/2321973.aspx
Greenie NIMBY
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:28 pm
It’s bird, moderator and urine is his hairy trannie.
Jc
29 Dec 11 at 8:28 pm
Rob, I get tested for drugs as part of my professional role.
Never failed one in my life.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 8:30 pm
M wrong again on all counts. I won’t identify what my business is as i don’t want all the examples of retardation that frequent this site to know that information
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:30 pm
M, as a general rule it’s poor form to out people in the comments, even if they are an annoying troll.
Unless, of course, it’s Mr Bird. Then it’s fine.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 8:31 pm
So what makes you think this?
“Robs just a zoned out methamphetamine smoker who reads Green Left Weekly, specially flown over to the Margaret River area by winged koalas.”
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:31 pm
oh and m it was raised as a breach, the mine was closed down, the company tried to do some surface remediation, however nothing is going to stop that toxic acidic plume from reaching the river and the company will not be required to pay compensation for the impacts that will have
Oh, so you admit openly that the Dept. did its job properly, it was investigated IAW the Act. It was shut down, and now you are speculating a load of crap about what might happen in future.
A lie, in other words.
Thanks for admitting it, Adler.
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:31 pm
Sorry, Daddy Dave. Get sick of these clowns, they waste an ocean of public money with their lies and whining.
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:33 pm
I agree dad.
M , it really doesn’t matter who it is. Just focus on their comments and attack those, including calling him or her an idiot if necessary.
The exceptions of course are bird and fat Phil the trannie.
Jc
29 Dec 11 at 8:34 pm
M.. still does not remove that this damage has been caused by a proposal approved by the DMP.
How can there be any confidence in the process if this was “best Practice” But they still fucked it up.
Which is the main reason why most people are opposed to CSG. They cannot make any credible assurance that they won’t fuck it up again.
And it’s not the Department, Government or BHP that has to bear the consequences. It is the communities in which this proposal was forced into.. much like CSG
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:34 pm
actually there’s a good reason for it: if you’re wrong, lawsuits can ensue. Marieke Hardy had an obsessive online stalker, whose identity she exposed. Unfortunately for her, she fingered the wrong guy, and even though she deleted the accusation within hours, had to fork out several thousand dollars.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 8:34 pm
M , yes but its not your blog to be outing someone like that, although I agree with all you say.
Jc
29 Dec 11 at 8:36 pm
whoah. Steady on, JC. Now that’s bringing out the heavy artillery.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 8:37 pm
thanks Daddy, so M, happy to go to court so i can get thousands of dollars for inaccurately identifying me as Mr Alder? and Rob gets to sue your for defamation”
“You’re that brain-dead greenie whackjob who was whining that auction of the gas blocks deep to sea off Leeuwin would pollute Marg river from under the sea floor in 1 kilometre of water and 250k away”
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:39 pm
I used to work in drug and alcohol rehabilitation, Rob.
Actually felt sorry for a lot of the poor buggers – an addiction to a mind altering substance is horrific to watch – it must be even worse to live.
Talking these wretches down from flashbacks is an edifying experience.
You should stop now while you’ve got two neurones to spark together.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 8:39 pm
wintson any dickhead miner knows how to fake a drug test
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 8:41 pm
Geeze Winston, sorry to hear you used to work in alcohol and drug rehabilitation, most people i know that worked in that sector either did so to deal with their own problems, burnt out over time and took up greater drug problems. So… borrowing someones urine to pass those tests?
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:43 pm
Then apologies and Ill accept the greenies denial that he aint Adler.
Itll be as totally trustworthy as any greenies word.
Hes still admitted we did our bloody job properly (not my area that one) and shut the mine.
Damn fool still does not understand the Acts liability provisions. Yeah, if his stupid little speculation comes tru then BHP retains liability.
Rob Margaret River is an idiot.
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:43 pm
I’ve yet to see any linked evidence of damage reported by any reliable source caused by gas extraction.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 8:44 pm
It’s hardly a comparable situation. I was outlining the general principle.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 8:44 pm
whats this winston you worked in drug rehabilitation sure you weren’t the patient
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 8:44 pm
” when will you people realise you can’t eat money. I know when. When its too late..”
Since money is the generic term for the intermediary item of exchange, it could represent a food item, and thus easily eaten.
Louis Hissink
29 Dec 11 at 8:48 pm
anyway people, as lizzy said, it’s been fun.
Good luck to you Blackie and Fairy, i admire your stamina. One day of these people is enough for me.
Can’t wait to see all your hand wringing, wailing and spewing come to naught.
Tsunami heading your way peoples, it’s called public opinion, going on developments so far, the CSG industry is facing an uphill battle with everyone else rolling shit down that hill to make it extra specially slippery hehe.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:49 pm
Rob Margaret River, THIS is defamation: See yr comment at 8:43 as you just accused someone of a crime.
So, to recap, your comment about EIS was totally false, your accusation re BHPs sand mine was false, and you do not understand the act.
So you have exactly zero cred, yes?
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:51 pm
You blokes sure squashed that idiot.
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:52 pm
lol M yeh, feel that way if it makes you feel better. fertilised more likely with all the shit spouted on these pages
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:55 pm
“I would much prefer liquid flouride thorium reactors….”
Now we are talking. Thorium has to be considered fundamentally inexhaustible, since even if ore-grades became too hard to get at on earth, 10,000 years from now (lets say), Thorium gives off a characteristic signature. So you could readily identify asteroids that were rich in Thorium.
But we are going to need the coal seam gas, the hydro-carbon solids liquification, and the coal-electricity, to be able to keep things running until we can get the thorium reactors and beyond that point as well.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 8:57 pm
oh and M re comment at 8.43.. it was a question not an accusation
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 8:58 pm
CSG is a vast industry already in QLD. You greenie NIMBY gits missed the bus. It left 30 years ago. Its taking off in SA now. NSW Gunnedah basin is going ahead
You missed the shale gas bus too. Been fraccing here for years.
Yknow that theyve been fraccing under Barrow (world class nature reserve etc) for 40 years, yeah? Thousands of such wells here.
M
29 Dec 11 at 8:59 pm
“Rob Margaret River, THIS is defamation: See yr comment at 8:43 as you just accused someone of a crime.”
The horror. The horror. Oh the (in) humanity.
You are a pathetic little white house-nigger M.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 8:59 pm
iam with you rob. there all miners or mouth pieces with vested interest . look out boys the greens are obviously gonna kick your arse . youve done a great job of convincing me you are the Luddite s get with the 21 century environment and social license matter just wait and see.
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 9:01 pm
“CSG is a vast industry already in QLD. You greenie NIMBY gits missed the bus.”
I’ve been here since before 4.00pm, and there hasn’t been a greenie or a Nimby argument made. Stop arguing with the voices in your head, you corporate eunuch.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 9:01 pm
Yes in QLD, by chance noticed any of the civil unrest going on there, or perhaps how unpopular the government there is? Sitting at the head of the Murray Darling System as it does, if there are major contaminations created through cowboy operators and it flows downstream, how happy are the rest of the East Coast going to be?
Ever heard of Asbestos? Glad i missed that boat too.
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 9:02 pm
oooohh.. must rush out and become a card carrying greens member. Hearing you guys tell it, would get me that disability support pension in no time on grounds of retardation. Have to get me some of those incontinence pads too to complete the image
Rob in Margs
29 Dec 11 at 9:05 pm
the continual denial of the effects of the regulations (which are probably OTT, BTW), in fact the denial of their existence pretty well shows this characters up as ideologues. Any development tis to be opposed.
And they also fantasise about stopping it. Has he been to chinchilla, roma, dally, miles?
true story: I have spent a lot of time in the western darling downs, for years on drought work, more recently CSG impacts. A decade ago these towns were on their last legs. Now they are transformed.
I was at a meeting in Chincilla and a uni mate who worked in agriculture was telling me they were selling house blocks at next to nothing (can’t remember the exact price, might have been a dollar). He looked at me and said “they’ll never get their money back”. Now a four beddie house in Chinchilla will go north of $500,000 these days.
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 9:06 pm
m csg on this scale is new and in fact the scale of open cut proposed is new too.
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 9:07 pm
“the continual denial of the effects of the regulations (which are probably OTT, BTW), in fact the denial of their existence pretty well shows this characters up as ideologues. Any development tis to be opposed.”
No you are just not comprehending the situation. Moreover its a loathsome, and weak point of view you are taking, attempting to be a libertarian, and yet speaking favourably about all these heavy-handed regulations.
You are not any sort of libertarian. You are merely an example of the many Sauron-forged demon-creatures, sent by the Dark Lord, to make a mockery of libertarianism, per se.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 9:13 pm
yeh shit head 500 thousand for a house in chinchilla what impact do you think that has on the locals. what will these towns be once you leave they’ll be on there last legs again
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 9:13 pm
Yep. The Bird is ramping up. “You are a pathetic little white house-nigger M.”
Hahahaha…
Two hours till lift off…
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 9:13 pm
You are a pathetic little white house-nigger M.
Im aboriginal you piece of racist crap.
Visiting an old WHITE easterner friend, hes married to a part islander women I know.
Yeah, racist vermin? My missus is white. Does that make you scream with rage, white-power-boy?
M
29 Dec 11 at 9:14 pm
m the likly hood of you being a murrey is doubtful maybe your one of the two hundred twiggy trained up to look good while he turns wa into a slag heap
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 9:18 pm
How?
Woolfe
29 Dec 11 at 9:18 pm
iam just going to have a wild guess but black comes across to me as a really proud cleaver indigenous women set me straight if im wrong black
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 9:21 pm
It probably does make him scream with rage, M.
It’s the innate Lefty rascism. It comes out every time Bird starts to wind up.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 9:22 pm
“He looked at me and said “they’ll never get their money back”. Now a four beddie house in Chinchilla will go north of $500,000 these days.”
Here we see the excessive interest burden and financing cost that poor resources management brings. This is an example of unjust enrichment as well. But of course on a humble scale, if its just an old-timer selling out to the newcomers.
But its not JUST about that sort of real estate wind-fall. As a practical matter this is not what these mining big shots are all about.
We saw that De Beers and other mining giants basically operate as real estate companies. The public servants sell us out with their slush-fund leasing deals, violating property rights all the way. Then the big shots come in and buy awesome amounts of all sorts of land, at what turns out to be bargain basement prices.
Then the big shots go about fleecing all the workers and everyone else, that are attracted to the area, by the mining activity. Fleecing them in terms of high rentals and exorbitant property prices. Then they offload their real estate sometime before the mining activity is in its scaling down phase.
The biggest beneficiary of all this dysfunction is both the big mining companies, but also the banking sector, who always benefit from inflated financing costs and inflated real estate prices.
We could bring all this nastiness, dysfunction, and misallocation of scarce loanable funds to an end, if only we applied righteousness in property titles.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 9:22 pm
synthetic cannabis and urine provided by the pharmaceutical companies purchased at the chemist . so all those mining mishaps are done by straight people now that is scary
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 9:23 pm
Only Bird’s not a lefty.
sdfc
29 Dec 11 at 9:24 pm
Oh well. Looks like I may have read M the wrong way.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 9:24 pm
Which mishaps?
Woolfe
29 Dec 11 at 9:27 pm
Just got told who this Bird is. mate and his missus just got back so we are out to dinner with them. I’ll get off his computer.
Yeah, racist white power boy? He said to say that you are a piece of filthy internet vermin.
So go jam that up your rabid racist ringbit.
M
29 Dec 11 at 9:29 pm
My goodness. I’ve been reading some of the comments on this forum and it has descended into utter anarchy. There will always be disagreements but if someone does not happen to agree then personal attacks are but a step too far.
James S
29 Dec 11 at 9:32 pm
whatever happened to Alan Moran? He had no arguments in rebuttal to the devastating takedown of his piece?
fill the cup
29 Dec 11 at 9:32 pm
That’s because the devastating takedown happened in a parallel universe where none of us could read it.
Please, in future, try to make the takedown happen in the same universe as the original article. Thanks in advance.
daddy dave
29 Dec 11 at 9:36 pm
Don’t be playing the race card with me M-matey. I just haven’t figured out quite where you are coming from is all. But if I find out you are coming from an unrighteous point of view, I’ll be back to kick you in the throat. Don’t be mistaking my pull-back as some sort of reaction to you pulling the black-fella special pleading race-card. I’m only admitting I don’t quite know what your act is about. Don’t get lazy and start falling back on the usual race-dodges.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 9:40 pm
santos poorly put together gas hub 40 million dollar gas mishap, orricas constant screw ups, werris safety breaches and they re all straight!!! how many died in java when santos screwed up there 13 people 40 thousand homeless and can never return to there properties if there not stoned there really are to incomperdant to be trusted
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 9:41 pm
I must admit M, that I ignored the comment by Rob. He was just showing himself up. He’s been saying he’ll leave since about 1600.
Yes. Thanks Woolfe, the synthetic THC doesn’t show up on the current range of tests, but one of the metabolites does. And guess what? It is detectable for six months from an oral cell swab, being fat soluble.
The new kits will be here in March. But really, I was waiting for the Tooth Fairy to tell us how it’s done. i.e. assisting in the commission of a crime…
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 9:43 pm
Very respectful of a differing opinion Black Nobility.
James S
29 Dec 11 at 9:45 pm
Whoo hoo hoo!
“I’ll be back to kick you in the throat.”
The countdown is on…
Let’s see this bird fly!
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 9:46 pm
“but black comes across to me as a really proud cleaver indigenous women set me straight if im wrong black”
If thats the case I must be a Lesbian. The word came up at work and so I asked the fellas what a Lesbian was. Someone said that Lesbians love women. I said that if Lesbians love women THEN I TOO …. AM A LESBIAN ….. I said.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 9:49 pm
Seriously I’m not likely to give M an excessively hard time. I don’t know his situation. In Arnemland we tell the aborigines that they are the custodians of the land, but we treat them like communist peasants. We don’t let them homestead resources on an individual basis, we keep them dependent, and if Noel Pearson wants to talk to any of the MP’s he has to wait in line behind an army of lobbyists. So I don’t know enough about M’s situation to be overly critical. It might be that the mining companies are the only people to talk to his folks as if they are grown-up human beings.
I know that Rio were training aborigines up from the distant communities to work in their outfit. Starting earnings were 90, 000 and the boss said the women made the best truck-drivers. If the mining outfits are the only people to treat M and his network like decent and productive human beings, then he has every right to show up here and push their case hard.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 9:54 pm
You do realise that BN is ranting about there being *any* regulations on CSG and he’s demanding that farmers should have complete ownership of their land and the minerals and gas underneath don’t you?
You do get that he’s not “on your side” don’t you? He’s actually arguing that farmers and landowners should be able to sink their own CSG wells, coal mines, etc and reap the profits all for themselves.
How funny you are.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 9:57 pm
so your new kits will be here in march
whats that mean your not actually testing for synthetic cannabis yet
winston do you think your the cia
i will leave you mining pimps to tell how its done your the experts
drugs never been my thing i do like a couple of scotches from time to time last time i looked that wasnt illegal in this country
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 9:57 pm
its ok to be a lesbian on this site just as long as your not hairy and your good looking black. shit maybe you are that bird guy they want to hunt down
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:00 pm
lol no Twostix, the troofer fairy thought Bird was on her “side”
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 10:00 pm
“You do get that he’s not “on your side” don’t you? He’s actually arguing that farmers and landowners should be able to sink their own CSG wells, coal mines, etc and reap the profits all for themselves.”
Not quite. The farmers did not make improvements on that which lies below their agricultural land. So for practical and moral reasons it is only just and right that a small government finance its act to a great extent through high royalties. But either way its the farmers call.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 10:00 pm
hey two dicks if farmers had those rights we would not be on this blog
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:04 pm
why? when they took up that freehold titel or lease, did it include the resources underneath (actually there are a few SEQ places that were settled pre 1919 where this is the case).
If a landholder was suddenly given rights to the resource (e.g. by getting to set royalties) their land values would rocket. How is that fair? one massive freebie. Actually given the mind set of some farmers I know, they would be all for it, until of course, the time came when they wanted to buy their neighbour’s place.
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 10:05 pm
“why? when they took up that freehold titel or lease, did it include the resources underneath (actually there are a few SEQ places that were settled pre 1919 where this is the case).”
Sure it was. This was a wartime violation of property rights. It was probably not needed then. It surely is not needed now. Even then it was a way of HIDING costs, and not avoiding them.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 10:10 pm
if landowners had these rights you pricks wouldnt have come here in the first place
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:12 pm
Do you support farmers having the right to sink their own CSG wells if they so desire?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:13 pm
Shylock can have his pound of flesh, but if he spills a drop of blood he has taken the flesh improperly. In the same way it has to be the farmer that makes the call, since you cannot get to what is underneath, except by way of piercing the surface of his property. Since we need clarity the sayso goes to him and him alone.
But in recognition that he and his antecedents only improved the surface of the land, and that this is the source of their title, the conflict of interest is made up in royalties. Then all the problems associated with our resources industry (not generated out of our finance industry) melt away, and we can just get on with it.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 10:14 pm
You do realise that there’s almost nobody in the mining industry on this site don’t you?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:15 pm
yes two dicks and plenty would say no
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:16 pm
Really? If CSG is worth ten times more per acre than crop or livestock you think they’re going to say no to a few wells?
Also “two dicks”? Really? Aren’t you like 50 or 60 or something?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:19 pm
“”Do you support farmers having the right to sink their own CSG wells if they so desire?”"
Valid question. Care to answer the question Truth Fairy?
James S
29 Dec 11 at 10:20 pm
Stop being a tone-deaf fool two-stix. You know full well that a high royalties regime would prevent any gold rush that would damage agricultural undertakings.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 10:21 pm
what has my age got to do with it 50 or 60 bit old for a greeny dont you think does put me in the more sensible steady age with enough life experience to think for myself
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:24 pm
this is what would happen. A lot of people would realise that giving up that hectare for a well will give them a return of say $3000 (better if it is irrigation). What crops yield that sort of return per acre. And you don’t actually have to do anything to get that $3000. Where do I sign? And my son could actually get a job working with the company too? for a six figure salary?
Of course, there will be a few that a happy to continue relying on the weather for their base income, and who will resist change and not want contractors wandering over their land once a week to check the well heads. They might need $5000 per well to change their minds.
And then there are the cantankerous old gits who will not settle for any price. These will greatly increase the cost of the CSG business, making everyone else the company, the State, their neighbours) as poor as them.
to vary a theme, would a % share of the royalties be an acceptable alternative?
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 10:27 pm
Fairy,
Before you get starry eyed about black Bird, be aware of the following.
he’s a troofer
He thinks the shadow government killed kennedy
He thinks there is intelligent life on mars
He thinks Obama killed the organist at his old church to prevent him from disclosing their gay relationship
He believes in explodia.. that gases inside the earth will explode and cause us to turn into gas
He thinks Jews rule the world and run banking
He thinks a magic water potion cures cancer
He wants to tunnel underneath his neighbor’s homes and refers to it as homesteading
He thinks caustic sodor cures also cures cancer
That’s just a few things I recall at the top of my head.
So before you get enamored with Black Bird, just remember these things.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 10:34 pm
“”Do you support farmers having the right to sink their own CSG wells if they so desire?””
Valid question. Care to answer the question Truth Fairy?
James S
29 Dec 11 at 10:34 pm
rather see more in the pockets of locals than multinationals how many 100s of billions are they talking about making out of this 5000 per well dont get to generous
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:34 pm
No thats rubbish entropy. What a high royalties AND NO OTHER TAXES regime would yield, would be a patient, and cost-effective way of getting hold of the deep gear, and with minimal, non-agricultural footprint.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 10:35 pm
I’m quite happy for people to own everything under their feet.
Luck of the draw and hard work unleashing the those resources – that’s what built this country not high royalty regimes, what are you some sort of commie?
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:35 pm
ooh, black IS Bird……
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 10:36 pm
jc hes obviously on the right blog then
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:36 pm
“I’m quite happy for people to own everything under their feet.”
Thats fine two-stix. But its a mindless fetish that you ought to keep to yourself. Your happiness has nothing to do with it. The fact is since the farmer and his antecedents, do not materially improve the 7000 kilometres beneath them, they don’t automatically get full title to that 7000 kilometres. To claim that they do is just anti-philosophical mindlessness.
They have the total call on what goes on at the surface.
Black Nobility
29 Dec 11 at 10:40 pm
fairy you support private property rights for farmers which puts you violently at odds with about 100% of the Green Left.
You’d probably fit in here ok if it wasn’t for your whinging about CSG and ebil corporations.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:40 pm
23 minutes and counting, and still no response.
James S
29 Dec 11 at 10:43 pm
Are they “allowed” to sell Native Timber that they clear in your commie new world order? They didn’t materially improve that.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 10:44 pm
TF, from what I understand the projections are a well will earn $1 million per annum. But i don’t understand why you think the landholder should get a large cut of that. They don’t own the resource, and they will not be spending billions getting the wells, water treatment, pipelines, lNG plants and ships up and running.
But if I was a farmer I would be happy. a few thousand dollars pa to effectively lease a small plot of land for fifteen years or so, after which you get to use it again? Inwhihc the CSG company does all the mainline, including roads etc, that will be left behind after?
A set of wells on your place means freedom from having to worry about whether the next drought will mean you don’t have enough cash to put food on the table (there will be no EC next drought, la Gillardine has emptied the larder). It means you can be more adventurous with the crops and livestock you do produce, perhaps becoming the farmer you always dreamed you could be.
I know a guy who got over $600 grand up front and over $200 grand a year for the wells on his place. he has mostly got rid of his debt, and he can still run just as many cattle, and still probably grow as much wheat, if he could be bothered.
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 10:46 pm
Sorry JC and entropy – I’ve kept bird warm for you, but he’s about to start swearing in Arabic, and I need my sleep.
Good night, tooth fairy – have dreams about being done on the roadside testing too – the coppers are getting those kits as well.
Winston Smith
29 Dec 11 at 10:47 pm
I am off also. I was hoping Truth Fairy would answer the question posed 31 minutes ago but unfortunately it was not to be the case. It seems widespread on this forum. Good luck all with your friendly and non-threatening discussions.
James S
29 Dec 11 at 10:53 pm
when i said and repeated im not not the green left you for some reason refused to believe
i dont even know anyone who admits to being green or left
never heard of geek greek or black bird just boring old mainstream
but you lot have nearly convinced me to vote green
and jc iam hot baby really hot i know why you whipped out that portfolio you still haven’t told me the solution if your mining mates screw up
suing is not really gonna cut it for me
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:54 pm
Well, come on birdinski, how long can it take to get the meth into ya? entertain me ya clown.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 10:57 pm
i know a guy thats how urban myths start winston
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 10:57 pm
The read what I wrote about Lock The Gate, you may not be but the entire anti-CSG movement has been completely co-opted by the hard anti-everything civilised and decent green left (including most modern farming).
If you aren’t lying and are just a normal rural farmers daughter or whatever then throwing your hat in the ring with the likes of Lock The Gate, etc is stupidity.
twostix
29 Dec 11 at 11:03 pm
Fairy
No self admitted hot gal would threaten to vote Green even out of spite such as you’ve done. There are standards and one can only go so low.
I posted that stuff about the stocks I own because I often talk about stocks with some other people and never done revealed what i own, but it’s a quiet period at the moment and don’t have much risk on. It wasn’t to impress you. You don’t even use full stops and commas in your comments and no hot gal would be caught dead doing such a thing.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:09 pm
As for solutions… read what M said earlier as he seems to be quite involved in this stuff, that’s if you don’t believe other people here.
The government schleps are watching over this thing like hawks and they have an ax to grind in this thing because if it fucks up, lots of people will lose their jobs.
Don’t be scared.
Of course there is risk in the process, but there is risk in everything we do.
The most important thing we can do for our kids is handing them a world that was richer than in our time. We want to raise living standards. That’s our principle objective.
Don’t be dirty on large corporations are they serving our needs and making profits which help fund our retirement pools with rising stock prices and higher dividends. They are populated with good people by and large that only want to make money and do so in a safe and honest way while delivering excellent service.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:17 pm
Don’t know how to break this to you fairy. The two dicks riposte was not about greenery but, ahem, horizontal activities at a certain age. Not that I’m against any of that..
Lazlo
29 Dec 11 at 11:18 pm
twostix, even some of the founders of greenpeace don’t trust the ” Greens” that have hijacked the environmental movement, I can’t believe a primary producer could.
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 11:18 pm
you dont have to pretend why you posted that stuff jc
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 11:19 pm
You wish fairy, but keep dreaming anyway.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:20 pm
The usual policy of developing any mine is to buy out the pastoralists at fair market prices. In the case of gas extraction from underlying shales, this is no different to sinking boreholes to extract liquid hydrocarbons underfoot. No unmitigated disasters have occurred from oil extraction requiring excessive compensation for the pastoralists whose leases, and lands when privately owned, are so affected.
In any case the Crown owns all minerals underfoot and we miners are only permitted to extract them according to law.
Judging by the large number of comments Alan has generated here, ignorance of mining law has to explain most of them.
What irks me is the rank hypocrisy of the usual suspects – they demand cheap supply of energy to power their iPods and iPhones and SUV’s but bitch when,in order to supply them with their energy, we in the mining industry have to dig a few holes in their amenities.
Louis Hissink
29 Dec 11 at 11:22 pm
well you see lazlo my life doesn’t revolve around playing with my dick all day.
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 11:25 pm
louise this boom isnt supplying australia it is supplying india and china if left for the domestic market we would have an unlimited supply
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 11:28 pm
Just playing with it some of the time, Fairy? What sort of a lady are you?
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 11:28 pm
Good point, Louis. The gas that comes out of the mains in Brisbane is CSG from north of Injune. It has been extracted since the eighties. Is the Arcadia Valley (aka God’s own country) ruined because of CSG extraction? Is the Carnarvon Gorge ruined because CSG is extracted nearby?
entropy
29 Dec 11 at 11:31 pm
louise last count in qld was 40 thousand gas wells to go in and raising and at this point in time the law is heavily stacked in favour of miners being a miner you would now that
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 11:33 pm
Louise H,
There is shale under laguna quays golf course NQ that Bligh put a 20 year moratorium on mining over, do you know if that includes gas extraction ?
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 11:34 pm
I’m confused fairy. Is ‘my dick’ part of you, or ‘to have and to hold’ as it were? All this stuff about lesbians is doing my head in..
Lazlo
29 Dec 11 at 11:35 pm
It’s Louis, you idiot, not Louise.
Firms are selling what they extract to consumers that happen to live in other countries. These firms don’t export to countries we export to consumers that happen to live in other nations. We also need to export so we can pay for our imports and more imports gives us better choice.
it creates more high paying jobs and if the firms make a profit they pay taxes which helps us fund our hospitals and other services.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:36 pm
lizzie you really think i care about what your definition of a lady is
cant you come up with something better than that
iam a fairy dickhead
truth fairy
29 Dec 11 at 11:38 pm
Pearls before swine JC. But don’t stop..
Lazlo
29 Dec 11 at 11:39 pm
opps “Louis”
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 11:40 pm
Queensland’s fraccing facts
Of the approximate 5000 conventional and domestic petroleum and gas wells currently in Queensland, just over eight per cent have been fracced. This equates to around 400 wells.
Fraccing fluid is pumped into the coal seam to prop open small cracks and openings which provide a pathway for more gas to be released
In Queensland, fraccing fluids are made up almost entirely of water and sand (typically 99 percent) but they also include a variety of additives used for various purposes, such as the prevention of bacterial growth and corrosion of infrastructure.
Many of the fraccing additives are used in everyday life such as in swimming pools, soaps and vinegar.
A number of the additives used in the fraccing process are designed to either oxidise or biodegrade during the fraccing activity or soon thereafter.
The government has regulated disclosure of the chemicals used by operators
Operators seeking Queensland Government approval to undertake fraccing activities are required to prepare and submit a risk assessment that considers over 26 potential risk factors. The fraccing will not be authorised if the risk assessment does not satisfy the government’s requirements.
The risk factors include:
details of the proposed chemicals to be used
the toxicity of the chemicals and their mixtures
the practices and procedures to ensure the fracc is contained within the target area
environmental and human health hazard and impact assessments.
The risk assessments must demonstrate that fraccing activities can be carried out in a way that does not cause environmental harm.
The government uses the findings of the risk assessment to develop specific operating and monitoring conditions on each environmental authority. These conditions are legally enforceable and there are heavy penalties for non-compliance.
Prior to carrying out fraccing, operators must determine the water quality in both the coal seam water and landholder bores.
Close monitoring must occur during the fracc process to ensure that the activity is going according to plan and that no interconnectivity of aquifers occurs
After the seam has been fracced, the fraccing fluids (flowback) are pumped out of the well. This water is stored in appropriately designed and constructed dams where it is either reused in further fraccing activities or treated to the appropriate environmental and human health standards.
After fraccing has occurred flowback water quality and quantity must be monitored until one and a half times (150%) of the amount of the fluid used in the fracc has been returned to the surface. This is to ensure that all water used for the fracc is removed.
Comprehensive impact monitoring requirements for landholders bores can continue for up to five years after fraccing has occurred.
In the event that serious environmental harm is caused as a result of fraccing activities, the maximum penalty for an individual under the Environmental Protection Act is $416,500 or five years imprisonment. A corporation may be fined a maximum penalty in excess of $2 million.
http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/environmental_management/coal-seam-gas/fraccing.html#chemicals_and_compounds_used_in
jumpnmcar
29 Dec 11 at 11:46 pm
Fairy, sweetie pie, my definition of a lady is someone without a dick, but maybe I am going wrong somewhere? I can only judge by my own equipment.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
29 Dec 11 at 11:50 pm
lol troof fairy said:
yes, you surely are. Or should I say, ain’t that the truth.
Gab
29 Dec 11 at 11:52 pm
Ladies please, no squabbling in the war room, unless of course it’s going to be mud wrestling in a 2 piece bathing suit.
JC
29 Dec 11 at 11:56 pm
jumpnmcar: excellent, but this is far too much truth for the average green voter to understand. They need it splelled in great big letters: NO CSG!
Lazlo
29 Dec 11 at 11:58 pm
Why the bathing suits?
Lazlo
29 Dec 11 at 11:59 pm
fairy,
Why do you use the word ” fracking” like on google search results, but the QLD govt uses ” fraccing”
hhmmm…..
jumpnmcar
30 Dec 11 at 12:04 am
They always start with the two piece and then get lost in the melee, lazlo.
Ever seen one? They are absolutely great. i saw one in Atlantic City once being hosted by one of the less salubrious casinos there. Surprisingly they were lookers too and were really going for it and naturally the bathers were ripped off part of the way through. You could even bet on the matches.
This is the sort of crap that made America great.
JC
30 Dec 11 at 12:07 am
The Petersham Inn, early 80s JC, with the same ‘careless’ shedding of bathers.
Lazlo
30 Dec 11 at 12:14 am
I guessed truth fairy was a girl, about sixteen I’d say.
And green, in every sense of the word.
kae
30 Dec 11 at 10:30 am
House Prices
Pre-
CSG Latest
Chinchilla $80G $380G
Dalby $84G $224G
All good.
Thomas Esmond Knox
30 Dec 11 at 11:48 am
Thanks for some great responses to my piece – though every heterodox blog has its truth fairies and Thomas Brookeses. Am away so cannot do real justice to the many helpful comments. Just two things.
First, in response to entropy the price of gas in Australia will be the world price but it is likely to be lower to the user here, as is the case of steaming coal, because domestic use does not need To incur transport costs.
Secondly, the issue of the rights of the landowner raised by JC and others is one that deserves far more analyitical attention. The landowner in Roman Law owned everything from the “core of the earth to the heavens above”. Under common law this has been changed as it would be clearly inefficient for example for airlines and radio transmissions to have To negotiate with all the landowners they pass over.
In the case of mining, vesting mineral ownership in the landowner leads to suboptimal effort – the landowner would be a passive beneficiary of any new found wealth that was uncovered. As if areas of prospective new technology were to be reserved for particualr individuals, this would bring too little search activity. That is why the basic ” finders keepers” approach of today prevails. Of course this involves some altercations where mining and other rights collide but at least until recently these have been sorted out equably.
Government claims on the mining rents are traditional and as to be expected have become ever more grasping while providing diminishing quid pro quos.
On a technical note, one particular feature of CSG is that the water is not actually used to pressure the gas out. It can be like that in conventional gas wells but the role of water is different in CSG wells. In coal, the gas is actually adsorbed onto the coal particles and held there by the hydrostatic pressure due to the presence of water in the seam. To free the gas and allow it to flow, one must get the gas to desorb. This is achieved by pumping out the water and thereby reducing the hydrostatic pressure.
Alan moran
30 Dec 11 at 12:03 pm
Dear Alan,
I have been reading through some of your other works and wonder how you reconcile the need for increased environmental flows through the Murray Darling Basin, the needs of protecting farmers water entitlements, and the effective doubling of the annual extraction from the system that would be necessary in order to facilitate extraction of CSG?
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 12:58 pm
Rob, GAB water does not go into the MDB system in any significant sense. ironically, if companies like QGC get their way there will be more available water in the condamine component of the MDB as treated water gets released into the Condamine weir. So you could argue that CSG extraction could result in more water in the MDB, even though it would still be insignificant.
Alan, I still don’t agree with you on gas prices. The transport cost from the well to the LNG plant is pretty much the same as the cost of piping it to Brisbane. I realise you are arguing for the cost of transporting LNG by sea to be factored in, but from a CSG perspective, the cost to arrive at the LNG plant would be the price that domestic users would have to match.
entropy
30 Dec 11 at 2:39 pm
“Dear Alan.”
Jeeze, that’s a big difference from “JC.. Please die… Today.”
Chameleon.
And Sociopath.
Winston Smith
30 Dec 11 at 2:53 pm
Hi Entropy,
thanks for your input, but i was hoping to hear from Alan
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 2:54 pm
Seems you were dead right Alan – The number of comments do indicate Coal Seam gas is the new activist “gravey train”.
Took most people 4 years to suss out the global warming bs. Now it must be so dead the Actys are fleeing to next big thing!
JC – keep the bastards honest – probably will take another 2 years for the Actys to jump onto the next big thing!
You should watch the movie “Idiocracy” – so funny and so green.
As for land rights, most farmland is leasehold in WA. unlike your freehold over east. With leases the only time “owners” become interested in land rights is when there is resource to be mined, then they ALL the “owners” come out for the slops like pigs at a trough.
Gowest
30 Dec 11 at 2:55 pm
“”“Dear Alan.”
Jeeze, that’s a big difference from “JC.. Please die… Today.”
Chameleon.
And Sociopath.”"
It’s laughable isn’t it. He comes onto this forum about how good he is about stopping a coal mine in the west when the bloody discussion was about CSG. Last time I checked you idiot, unconventional gas extraction was not a high priority in the west, you know, the whole north west shelf and everything. So stop bitching about how you’ll stop CSG over in margaret river because no one cares about extracting CSG over there.
Dex
30 Dec 11 at 2:59 pm
winston.. irrelevent
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 2:59 pm
been doing a little bit of research on Alan Moran, the AIPA and its links to the American Enterprise Instituted, who lo and behold, has Dick Cheney as being a long term member of the board of directors and chairman and CEO of Halliburton, you know, the company that developed the fraccing process, exempted the industry from the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act, does most of the fraccing operations around the world on behalf of CSG companies and has worked tirelessy to suppress and block any investigation into it’s impacts.
Just a little bit suspicious even for you guys.
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 3:02 pm
Gowest, i have to laugh, your description is the exact opposite of what i see amongst the local community. It is the landholders themselves that are uniting to keep this industry out of the south west
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 3:04 pm
Kae, Truth Fairy’s contributions and the various confusions they have produced due to simple grammatical errors such as not clearly distinguishing subject and object, let alone other issues of comprehension, make one fully appreciative of the obvious worth of grammar and especially of punctuation. Truther lives in a totally punctuation-free zone. It hurts.
I don’t think she is sixteen, but a grown woman, and I commend her for her staying power in this long thread, where, for the reasons above plus others, the odds are such that she has had little chance of success. Her message of ‘don’t trust the bastards if you don’t know what’s going on’ has some merit given her obvious handicap in accessing and comprehending accurate information. Unfortunately, this leaves her open to the simplifications of insidious Green slime.
Thus, I do advise her to vote for a Government that will do its utmost to fix the punctuation problem before anything else.
You have to start somewhere.
Aand of course fairies are female in the lexicon of simplicities. Apologies Truther for doubting it. Plus Bird was flying around then too.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
30 Dec 11 at 3:07 pm
My point Rob was that the MDB issues have very little, if any relevance to CSG activities, so why discuss it here?
Alan, surely the domestic price of gas will be LNG FOB at Port Curtis less the cost of processing into LNG? Any way you look at this represents a significant increase in domestic gas prices. And if you were an LNG producer, you might want to ensure you target your biggest customers, which will not be domestic.
I would not be surprised once LNG contracts are well established, there could even be domestic gas shortages. Just as well we have all that lovely black coal and a government determined to maintain our competitive edge in energy production. Oh, wait…..
Entropy
30 Dec 11 at 3:10 pm
Rob, Alan may not be across all the detail with regard to CSG, as I am sure he doesn’t spend a lot of his rather valuable time on it, but there is no need to launch into conspiracy theories involving TEH EVVILL Dick Cheney, who as far as I can tell did his most useful service when he shot a lawyer.
Entropy
30 Dec 11 at 3:14 pm
Yea Ron, I wondering when one of you would get to Cheney. It was so obvious and I was always worried that a half way intelligent sleuther such as yourself would pick it up and of course you did.
Damn.
Now I hoping you won’t find the connection with them evillllll Koch bros.
Jc
30 Dec 11 at 3:15 pm
my poin re the MDB is that all the studies are saying we need to reduce our drawing from that system, the farmers have experienced dramatic cut backs of their water licence allocations, yet the CSG industry is given the green light to double the current extraction of water from the system.
Additionally, our understanding of the entire system is still quite limited and there is no way to accurately predict what the impacts will be.
Also, if there is localised draw down of water tables affecting farmers bores, the CSG industry is effectively stealing water from the farmers.
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 3:16 pm
JC, just because you may ridicule something, does not mean it is not true, particularly when there is lots of money involved
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 3:18 pm
Rob
Your Cheney comment is so lame that in some earlier period you would have been taken to the town square then tied up in a rack like contraption and the village kids would have thrown rotten eggs and tomatoes at you for several days.
What a dickhead you are.
Jc
30 Dec 11 at 3:21 pm
Yes rob that’s true…. Something that I find incredible may actually be true…
However your stupid comment and dotted lines leads to a complete absurdity. It veers towards trooperism.
‘M was right about you, you really are an imbecile.
Jc
30 Dec 11 at 3:24 pm
whatever JC,
What you fail to realise is that i have learnt a great deal over the past 24 hours.. thank you
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 3:24 pm
“Rob, GAB water does not go into the MDB system in any significant sense. ”
I’m guessing that GAB is an acronym in your sentence, Entropy. If not, then I don’t know why I’m included in your comment.
Gab
30 Dec 11 at 3:25 pm
I’m sure you’ve tried to, rob but I’m also sure nothing sinks in.
The Cheney comment shows that everything we’ve taught you simply doesn’t sink in and M wasted his time.
Jc
30 Dec 11 at 3:27 pm
is ok though, i now have Alan’s own email address and will go through that route.
bon voyage
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 3:27 pm
oh and to be clear.. i was learning about you people, not CSG
Rob in Margs
30 Dec 11 at 3:28 pm
Don’t pester Alan. He’s a nice dude and he shouldn’t be swamped with an imbecile’s issues.
Jc
30 Dec 11 at 3:30 pm
More importantly I hope you learned a lot about yourself.
Gab
30 Dec 11 at 3:30 pm
Where’s. Sanchez the pool cleaner? I’m sure he’d find the connection with the Koch bros, if you don’t rob.
What a magnificent bastard he is.
Jc
30 Dec 11 at 3:33 pm
“I now have Alan’s own email address and will go through that route.”
“4. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.”
Got what you want, and now you’ll piss off…
Your girlfriends must have been real pleased with you, Rob.
Winston Smith
30 Dec 11 at 3:38 pm
Come think about it… Thinking about magnificent bastards… Where’s fairy.. Australia’s top model.
She better be hot looking as she claims as her performance on this thread has been appalling and the only way for her to get a pass is if she really is hot as she claims.
Jc
30 Dec 11 at 3:38 pm
Great Artesian Basin, Gab. The GAB inflows from the mountains in New Guinea, along the great Dividing range, ad runs deep underground in Werstern Qld and northern NSW. The coal seams form part of the sub basins called the Surat,galilee Clarence and Morton basins. Benign porous , they contain water. The main aquifers accessed by farmers are usually hundreds of meters above or below these coal seams, with lots of non porous siltstone in between.
Rob is right though that there will be drops in stock and domestic bore head heights in sub artesian areas. This is because even though inter connectivity is negligible, there will still be some and the reduction in water volume in the coal seam will reduce pressure in nearby aquifers, and you only need a tiny drop in pressure to get big drops in sub artesian head heights. it is bizarre he would call that stealing, though. First of all the cSG operators aren’t taking any water from those aquifers, and they are required to make good water supplies if, for example, the drop in head height exposed the pump the farmer has in that bore. This would be by sinking the pump below the new water level, or putting in a bigger pump if the old one couldn’t manage the extra depth.
Entropy
30 Dec 11 at 3:43 pm
Oh you have learnt about us Rob. You are the biggest wanker I’ve ever encountered. You and your fuck-horts refuse to accept anyone’s point of view, and in the meantime consider that because we offer a differing opinion to your own, that we must be paid lobbyists or some similar shit. Ordinary Australians can;t have minds of their own because it does suit your leftist agenda. So see you later, and tell someone who gives a shit, because if yesterday is anything to go by, it’ll take you 10 hours just to leave.
Dex
30 Dec 11 at 3:47 pm
It’s amazing. I started in this forum being very amicable with this lot and after copping a fair amount of unjustified crap, from being stalinist etc., it goes from there.
Dex
30 Dec 11 at 3:50 pm
Here is the status quo succinctly explained. It looks all fine, and good, but actually its an astounding violation of principles of property rights allocation, and a nightmare of comparative wealth destruction:
“The usual policy of developing any mine is to buy out the pastoralists at fair market prices. In the case of gas extraction from underlying shales, this is no different to sinking boreholes to extract liquid hydrocarbons underfoot. No unmitigated disasters have occurred from oil extraction requiring excessive compensation for the pastoralists whose leases, and lands when privately owned, are so affected.
In any case the Crown owns all minerals underfoot and we miners are only permitted to extract them according to law.”
No-one can disagree with this surely. But then Louis said the following:
“Judging by the large number of comments Alan has generated here, ignorance of mining law has to explain most of them.”
I wouldn’t suspect so Louis. I think most people understand the tawdry and dysfunctional status quo. But since the subject is public policy, we also talk about how things OUGHT TO be run.
If the industry was run my way, most mining outfits would be pretty small, and you personally, would probably be one of the wealthiest people in the industry by now. Whereas the services of Kloppers would not be needed, and Lang Hancock would have died moderately wealthy in all probability.
Its important to do things right. That means that a profits tax can never be acceptable. No up front lease fees or auctions. The farmer would have total sayso in the one case, the aboriginal community in the other. And the royalties would be so high, that the bankers were to a great extent cut out of the process.
The technology is inherently capable of leaving a small footprint. You say that the farmers are bought out at fair market price. I suspect they are bought out with a premium. But that they are bought out is a misallocation of resources. Since if they were supposed to move out of farming they would already have done so.
A coal seam gas operation, can take as little space as a single-lane road, a cowshed, and couple of tanks. Maybe these operations take more space than that but they certainly don’t need to. So in your first sentence we see the comparative wealth destruction of an atrocious policy mix. Pastoralists being bought out. The pity and the waste of it. Extraction companies operating like real estate speculators, just for one thing. I could continue endlessly onwards about the disaster of the way things are done now, in comparison to sound policy.
Apache
30 Dec 11 at 3:52 pm
It’s cool Dex. What he’ll do now is round up half a dozen of his mates, and he’ll sool them onto us. He won’t be back, though. Even if he is just sitting back kacking himself with laughter, he’s just proved to his own satisfaction that he’s the Smartest Man In The Room.
He’s:
1. Manipulative and Cunning.
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
3. Pathological Liars.
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis.
4. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
9. Parasitic Lifestyle.
Poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
Oh, and Tooth Fairy is one of his compatriots – there to catch some of the flak. A patsy, is the word used commonly. She may be his daughter, or a very young girlfriend.
Winston Smith
30 Dec 11 at 4:15 pm
Jesus JC Joe Cambria [Edited. Sinc]
you have left a smattering of foul mouthed rants all over the place, how many profanities can you spew at so many different sites and people? A lot apparently
Rob in MArgs
30 Dec 11 at 7:02 pm
You’re a first class asshole for doing that Robinmargs.
Gab
30 Dec 11 at 7:06 pm
Yes, JC can be a bit of a potty mouthed chap, but he is our potty mouthed chap.
You hunting people down now, Rob? What will you do with him now you have caught him?
entropy
30 Dec 11 at 7:07 pm
“But if I was a farmer I would be happy.”
No you would not. You would be having your prior claim to the property being ripped off you. The farmers claim is superior to all other claimants, save only the general public, via the mechanism of royalties. No-one here, can come up with a single moral or practical reason, why anyone else ought to get a look-in.
The farmer clearly has the superior claim to the surface property. The public generally has the superior claim to the underground property, via the lifting of the tax-free-threshold, made possible by royalties. But no-one else, not any possible third party, can have a superior claim then the farmer has to the usage of the property. To say otherwise is patently ridiculous, and anti-philosophical.
Apache
30 Dec 11 at 7:16 pm
It’s very rare if ever I agree with Gab. But hear hear.
sdfc
30 Dec 11 at 7:17 pm
You and I will never agree on most things, sdfc, ’cause you have a weird take on economics
Gab
30 Dec 11 at 7:23 pm
You’re a right little charmer, aren’t Rob.
First off that isn’t me and neither is that my email address. However I do note your viciousness which is in perfect keeping with the fact that you’re nothing other than a greenslime sack of turd and will always be one. Hoping I would die yesterday, you’re now attempting to publish what you think is my name and email address.
What a diseased mind.
Secondly, it doesn’t change the fact you’re a fucking moron and a dishonest, envious little turd.
JC
30 Dec 11 at 7:32 pm
You’re a first class asshole for doing that Robinmargs.
I’d say a screaming fuckwit.
annomer
30 Dec 11 at 7:48 pm
What are you trying to prove by doing that Rob?
Rafe
30 Dec 11 at 7:54 pm
OK
JC is not Cambria and Rob in MArgs is not Alder, good, settled.
Now, can anyone show me evidence of damage done by csg extraction, with or without fraccing.
jumpnmcar
30 Dec 11 at 7:56 pm
And the despicable arsehole has also posted the same over at Graeme’s and added the comment:
“btw my email is
xxxxxxxx
Give it to me, fuckers lol. I’m a masochist and I can take it.”
Robinmargs is quite looney and vindictive pos.He’s a great example of what Greenies are capable of doing.
Gab
30 Dec 11 at 8:00 pm
Using “JC” as his moniker.
Gab
30 Dec 11 at 8:01 pm
Fuck off, Rob Margs. Publishing someone else’s email address is beyond the pale. I’m usually completely opposed to censorship and banning, but that sort of behaviour deserves an automatic ban.
Jarrah
30 Dec 11 at 8:48 pm
How low can people stoop. Disgraceful just doesn’t say enough. Unfortunately such behaviour is not unexpected from people of his ilk who become so angry and frustrated that they are conversing with people they can’t persuade, who actually have different views; it really makes me sick. Actions speak louder than words, even though he appears to be incapable of even providing the “correct” evidence. I’m sure that figured also in his fight with the coal mine in Margaret River.
Enough said.
Back on topic, jumpnmcar, from my research, I am unable to find any evidence of damage done to aquifiers from CSG extraction in QLD in the last 16 years.
Dex
30 Dec 11 at 8:52 pm
um people, simple, click on his little image and this own website lists his full name, do a search on linked in, note the time he spent in the us as a trader and wammo.. public information
Gabs, i have not done anything except on this page.
I have also completly re-read this entire page and it is not I who is the rude one.
Rob in MArgs
30 Dec 11 at 9:02 pm
Umm, there is a case somewhere near chinchilla involving Fraccing. I understand that there was some poor construction of the bore, so that the bore casing cracked under pressure and some Fraccing fluid got into a shallow aquifer. It is the only CSG related incident I am aware of. Not at all the same as CSG, but there have been two reports of UCG contamination. The Kingaroy incident led to the permanent shutdown of the trial due to the failure of the company to properly report the incident. Ironically, it was subsequently found that the source of contamination was most likely agricultural (pump grease probably). The last incident was nearvthe Kogan UCG trial, and was probably roadside runoff.
Entropy
30 Dec 11 at 9:04 pm
Lol
He’s gone to Bird’s site and posted that? What a nasty little beta that’s turned up here.
Leftwing Greenslime never ever surprise just how low they go.
Hey Rob, I know you’re reading this because that’s who you are. It’s water off a ducks back if you think such stuff intimidates me. It actually helps me when I’m arguing just how low Greenslime beta males are.
JC
30 Dec 11 at 9:05 pm
thanks Dex and Entropy.
I appreciate it,
jumpnmcar
30 Dec 11 at 9:22 pm
And JC, I wasn’t trying to intimidate you. I have merely read a few of your other exploits and your are as unsavoury everywhere else as your are here.
Rob in MArgs
30 Dec 11 at 9:22 pm
and if it really does annoy that much, i am sure sinclaire will remove it
Rob in MArgs
30 Dec 11 at 9:23 pm
Really? He really did that?
Rob take a read of the NSW Criminal Defamation law you stupid little cnut:
I suppose it all comes down to your intention in impersonating someone while posting their fullname and ISP email address and abusive comments inviting people to “give it to me, fuckers” around the place.
Sailing awfully close to the wind there I would say.
twostix
30 Dec 11 at 9:24 pm
“thanks Dex and Entropy.”
I’ll echo that for all the information you have provided here. Good stuff. And thanks to M also.
Gab
30 Dec 11 at 9:24 pm
Twostix, i don’t know what you refer to re the other site, that i have most certainly had no part in. I have not been defamatory, i believe the information to be accurate, i have no intent to cause seriouse harm.
Rob in MArgs
30 Dec 11 at 9:27 pm
Bullshit Rob.
You’re a sociopath and every time you make a statement on this site and others, you add more proof.
Winston Smith
30 Dec 11 at 9:30 pm
Rob
You’re just a scum bag, that’s all and like most Greenslime leftwingers a complete lowlife, so it doesn’t surprise. Neither does your voodoo attempt to wish death upon me.
It’s genetic with the left coming from long lines of scumbags and remorseless dickheads.
Who cares here about my comments as everyone knows about me and who i am.
One other thing, a large number of the regulars go drinking and lunching together having known each other for years and what we’ve said both here and other blogs. You’re not adding anything new. So fuck off you clown and go intimidate and scare some poor widow that’s dealing with the miners. That’s all you’re good for.
JC
30 Dec 11 at 9:31 pm
Sure thing.
That comment doesn’t CYA – just so you know.
twostix
30 Dec 11 at 9:32 pm
good to hear that it has all been said before, then you should be under no illusions. enjoy your new years people. needless to say, you really do deserve each other.
Rob in MArgs
30 Dec 11 at 9:33 pm
“i have no intent to cause seriouse harm.”
Yes you do, you lying piece of shit. If you didn’t want to cause harm you would not have published an email address you thought was mine.
You had every intention of causing harm, you lying sack of shit.
Man up, Rob, you frightened little beta and be honest abut it at the very least.
JC
30 Dec 11 at 9:34 pm
you’re right he is a sociopath. He publishes someone’s email address and tell people here we deserve each other as though he’s in the right.
Do people now see what this leftwing Greenslime is capable of and why it needs to be crushed?
These people are not normal. They all have serious mental problems. Every single one of them.
JC
30 Dec 11 at 9:38 pm
I looked up the info on the incident that I recalled. It wasn’t the bore casing, that was misreporting by activists. Unfortunately it does tend to dominate the press, who for some reason lap it up as fact.
What happened was at a place called myrtle 3. The gas yield from the test well was poor, so they tried Fraccing. Unfortunately there was connectivity between the seam and the springbok aquifer, and some of the Fraccing fluid was detected in the aquifer. This test well was shut down, and the amount of Fraccing fluid in the aquifer was not enough to cause serious contamination (detection occurs at very tiny levels).
This was covered in some detail by the ABC, which provided a stack of quite clearly partisan questions to the company (QGC). They replied in writing and it is all on the ABC website.
Entropy
30 Dec 11 at 9:42 pm
Of course he thinks he’s in the right, JC.
They are convinced they are the smartest person in the room, so therefore if you disagree with them, you must be wrong. Or Eeeevil.
They have to dehumanise you so they can ignore their own inhumanity.
That’s how Julia can ignore 700+ drowned refugees, thousands of freezing pensioners, and people having to spend money on power, rather than food.
It’s because we are Eeeevil, and deserve everything we get. And they will do anything to not see themselves in the mirror.
Winston Smith
30 Dec 11 at 10:07 pm
The other point here is the Discovery process when you sue someone.
Amazing just how much dirt floats to the top in that process.
And the internet never forgets, mate – something the Left continue to rediscover to their cost.
Eh, Rob?
Do you want to go down that road?
If you post here again, we will.
Promise.
Winston Smith
30 Dec 11 at 11:06 pm
Rob, who I guess is the Rob mcd emailing me, seems to have an affinity for conspiracies and having trawled the web mistakenly says I am in favor of greater MDB environment flows. I am not! The MDB system is a working river and better for man and probably fish and trees than pre-white settlement. City types spooked by Green activists are trying to seize the irrigators’ water, an act that would be highly detrimental to Australian incomes.
Entropy makes plausible points about the cost of gas being no cheaper in Australia once the international links are formed. My own view is that the export and local sale price will be cost reflective and the processing and ocean transport will always mean the delivered gas is cheaper especially inAustralian locations close to the gas .
It is however an empirical question. We should not be perturbed whatever the outcome since we want the best price for our products. We should not use fears about export sales to panic us into reservation policies and therefore suboptimal development
Alan moran
31 Dec 11 at 10:19 am
I note with much interest all the “Farmers are being conned by Lock The Gate and the greens” comments. So about you all here from a farmer…that’s me.
I live in an area of Queensland that is in the sights of the energy companies and I support Lock The Gate and their efforts. Sure there might be some odd fringe groups associated with them, but let’s have a look at some of the groups associated with the Coalition (Christian Lobby, The Brotherhood) or Labor (Fabians, Unions) and there is nothing unusual.
I have had mates tell me about their dealings in other areas and the results of wells on their land. We seem to have moved from “precautionary principal” to “adaptive remediation” and that isn’t good enough for me.
My gate is locked until it can be clearly demonstrated that my agricultural lands won’t be compromised.
Cocky
31 Dec 11 at 11:43 am
Alan, is there a clue you can legally and morally give us to follow if Rob comes back?
Sinclair has my email.
Winston Smith
31 Dec 11 at 12:50 pm
I’ve been reading through a number of the more colourful comments in relation to Alan’s article, and I tend to hear out arguments on whatever issue if they’re well-reasoned and based on more than emotional perception. I recently read this excerpt on an anti-CSG website:
“CSG production involves multiple wells, spaced fairly close together, connected by big aboveground pipelines leading to large, noisy compressor stations which vent hydrocarbons into the air. Many hydrocarbons cause cancer. The entire scene is then brightly lit up 24 hours a day without relief.”
My personal opinion is that this is alarmist. Using words such as “big”, “noisy” & “cancer” would likely scare anyone. I am no expert in conventional or unconventional gas extraction but I wanted to provide my own personal opinion in rebuttal on the statement above. I should point out that I have no association with the gas industry, CSG or otherwise (given the paid lobbyist comments accusations that are banded around that needed to be said in advance).
“Noisy compressor stations which vent hydrocarbons into the air. Many hydrocarbons cause cancer”. What do they define as excessive noise? I can’t recall what the Australian Standards allow but acceptable noise levels would have a dependence on the number of personnel in the vicinity of the noise source and number of hours they are exposed to the noise source. Compressor noise level would be heavily impacted by the flow it “sees” at the gas well. I could on about this point but I won’t.
I disagree that the compressor would be venting hydrocarbons (or gas) deliberately. If there was some venting of gas from the compressor then this would cause a reduction in the ability of the compressor to compress the gas, which kind of defeats the purpose of the compressor. I am somewhat doubtful that a company would allow gas to vent from a compressor station because it is an ignition source putting equipment and personnel in the vicinity in danger.
Is the gas cancerous? I don’t believe methane (main component of the gas) is a carcinogen but others may say otherwise. Again, from a safety point of view, companies would not (and should not) be allowing the venting of any gas likely to harm personnel. Imagine the ramifications on the company if someone is killed (not to mention the person but that goes without saying).
Anyway, that is my 2 cents for good or worse.
Tom
31 Dec 11 at 3:14 pm
Cocky and Tom, we’ve had a lot of ‘false flag’ operators dive in here on this and other topics, so you’ll understand if we are dubious about any new contributors…whatever the merits of your argument.
But don’t let that stop you from posting, we love to hear from opposing views, or supporting.
Once you get used to the site, it’s actually quite informative.
Winston Smith
31 Dec 11 at 4:38 pm
Like I said Winston, that is my 2 cents for good or worse.
Tom
31 Dec 11 at 8:21 pm
Tom, while the bore is being constructed, I am told it is pretty noisy and a 24 hour process that is lit upso the drillers can see what they are doing. This doesn’t take a long time though. I have been right up to wells, and I wouldn’t call them noisy. Most had a little pump (often running off the gas). it would have been the noise of a car running at idle, as in fact the pump was an old 202 motor. But that was in the real early days when I went and checked out the situation for myself. I would expect things are a lot more sophisticated, with purpose built pumps that would be even quieter.
Established wells look like a typical bore with a pump on top. No lights. The main difference in appearance to a stock and domestic pump would be the cleared land around it and obviously higher standards of maintenance.
Yes, like a car, there will be hydrocarbons burnt by the motor. leaks are few and far between, but minor. and the leak would be methane. methane is lighter than air and rises. I wouldn’t be surprised if you could be right beside a leaking well and because you are outside, inhale less methane than would the average dairy farmer in his shed twice a day (from cows burping). In any case I have never heard that methane is carcinogenic, but no doubt if you tried to breathe a pure atmosphere of it you wouldn’t last long.
It IS combustible at concentrations over 5%, but that would have to be one impressive leak. Like a truck driving over the top and ripping it out.
entropy
1 Jan 12 at 10:27 am
Entropy, I have no doubt it can get quite noisy when the gas well is being drilled due to all the heavy machinery. The excerpt from the anti-CSG website is based on a completed well with a compressor station transferring the gas through a pipeline. The noise levels allowed in a gas plant may not be necessarily comparable to that allowed in a rural “residential” area which is why I stated that acceptable noise levels would depend on personnel in the area, proximity to noise source and frequency of exposure. But all they state is that it is “noisy”, well, technically, their washing machine can be classed as noisy also. I take serious issue with the claim of emitting cancerous HC’s because apart from it being untrue, it claims that it is intentional, and that the companies have no moral obligation. People who would be designing this equipment do not want gas being released to atmosphere, they don’t want anyone harmed and they want to minimise the impact on the environment (believe it or not). Statements as shown in that website make it out that the people working in these industries don’t care and have no moral obligations. Maybe it’s so their opponents can try and claim the moral highground in their arguments, because that’s easier for people to oppose people like that.
Tom
1 Jan 12 at 12:11 pm
I’ve referenced the website I took that statement from just in case people think I made it up.
ttp://lelal.com/no2csg/
Tom
1 Jan 12 at 12:16 pm
Oh, OK, I thought you were talking about wells. Yes, the transfer/compressor stations would be a fair bit noisier, and would be lit up all the time for security. I think there are rules about distances from residences, and I have seen berms constructed to hide them, but all the same if you lived a km down the road I am sure you would be aware of it, much like a shopping centre in the city. However, the local farmer probably wasn’t expecting to end up with something like that down the road one day. So you can guess why they would be unhappy. It would even be worse if it was not on their property in a way, as they would not have access to compensation via a land access agreement.
I visited a CSG powered power station a few years back. Five ginormous turbines pumping out 125mwt. Total cost and footprint a fraction of a wind turbine fleet, and actually delivers the rated power. Quite impressive. But the point is while it was certainly noisy, you could talk 100m away. I would not want it too close to my house though.
I certainly take your point about the rhetoric though. There is a good example in yesterday’s The Australian about red spot infections in Port Curtis. The basic model is take whatever the activist/protestor says about a controversial subject as gospel, they seem to be able to say anything they like and are not questioned; not bother with evidence to the contrary (a fairfax habit); or downplay or play up any risk level; or outright skepticism of the alternate view. I guess to be kind the activist probably make themselves a lot more available to the journalists, who lets face it, a most interested in controversy to sell papers, and love sticking it to the man, having never gotten over the glory days running their student newspaper.
In the recent OZ article the views of the local fish wholesaler who reckoned dredging was the cause of red spot disease was accepted as the key fact. The views of BioSecurityQ, DERM and Fisheries were not clearly stated, and in any case treated with suspicion of a coverup. As you read on in the article you discover that the fish wholesaler’s troubles started well before the red spot turned up, as local fisherman moved elsewhere because of the increased LNG related traffic on the Harbour. he was grumpy that the government had not offered ‘compensation’.
The evidence currently points to red spot (a fungus) being the result of the floods earlier this year, and is certainly not unique to Port Curtis. As far away as NSW there were temporary closures of estuaries for fishing due to red spot and a host of other problems caused by flooding I suspect that the dredging certainly can’t help though, and it’s a good thing that dredging is only temporary.
Entropy
1 Jan 12 at 4:04 pm
bTW most wells don’t have a transfer/ compressor station. Pipes from wells all concentrate at the station for the GSG to go into a bigger pipe.
Entropy
1 Jan 12 at 4:10 pm
“In the case of mining, vesting mineral ownership in the landowner leads to suboptimal effort – the landowner would be a passive beneficiary of any new found wealth that was uncovered. ”
Wow. What a case of normalcy bias coming from Alan here! Its stunning to think that anyone could get matters so horribly wrong. Of course the best results lie in sound property titles. This is the essence of capitalism. And where is the issue of royalties in Alan’s analysis? We are not about to declare Australia an anarchy-capitalist territory anytime soon, so why the mean-spirited ignoring of royalties?
Alan is wrong on this matter, obviously so, and its very surprising because he has a tendency to get things right.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:03 pm
“In the case of mining, vesting mineral ownership in the landowner leads to suboptimal effort – the landowner would be a passive beneficiary of any new found wealth that was uncovered. ”
Wow? What a case of normalcy bias coming from Alan here! Its stunning to think that anyone could get matters so horribly wrong. Of course the best results lie in sound property titles. This is the essence of capitalism. And where is the issue of royalties in Alan’s analysis? We are not about to declare Australia an anarcho-capitalist territory anytime soon, so why the mean-spirited ignoring of royalties? Its royalties, and exemption from all other imposts, that can most effectively diminish excessive passive enrichment. Basic economics.
Alan is wrong on this matter, obviously so, and its very surprising , given who it is, that has blundered so completely.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:10 pm
I am have trouble understanding you point Apache. Unless you are Bird.
Entropy
1 Jan 12 at 5:14 pm
“Entropy, I have no doubt it can get quite noisy when the gas well is being drilled due to all the heavy machinery. The excerpt from the anti-CSG website is based on a completed well with a compressor station transferring the gas through a pipeline. The noise levels allowed in a gas plant …..”
Obviously if the farmer has control, it will be in his interests to not have to contend with noise problems. So the tendency will be to make his partners invest in sound insulation.
But if the farmer isn’t in control, other people can cause these problems and not really give a damn. This is a simple matter of failure to adhere to sound property rights principles. Where is the ad hoc argument against property rights? You won’t see it on this thread. We are tripping over communists, everywhere we go. When will these communists get off our backs? Think logically and not tribally.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:15 pm
I am trouble in understanding your argument Entropy, since you don’t have one. What is your argument against sound property titles? Where is it? Its not there. Because you don’t have one.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:17 pm
Apache
Vesting ownership below the top soil to the land holder assumes royalties goes to the landholder as well. I think you’re missing a step here, Comanche.
JC
1 Jan 12 at 5:18 pm
If someone has a killer argument against clarity in property titles, then surely you can apply this killer argument to other areas? Surely you would have a logical principle here that could be enunciated, explained, and applied elsewhere. But you don’t have that argument. You just accept the status quo, which is a complete mess.
Communists everywhere. Communists defined as people who hate property rights. But how do we explain this hatred? The normal communists had certain ideals about equality. But the crony-communists appear to be shameless brown-noses of the more useless manifestations of the big end of town.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:22 pm
No. Don’t be an idiot JC. I’m not missing anything. Get your act together you imbecile.
Its a simple matter of having total control in favour of the landowner, and diminishing the unjust gains through royalties. You have to be such an economic incompetent and general moron not to be able to understand that.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:23 pm
Bird
Get back in your cage. You should not be here and you know that.
Go away.
JC
1 Jan 12 at 5:26 pm
If you have a government you have to pay for it. Does anyone not understand that? Who here is an anarcho-capitalist (1) and thinks that we are on the verge of achieving anarcho-capitalism (2).
No-one. So why the gutless, and mean-spirited discrimination against royalties? Here someone doesn’t want to be enriching the farmers, and at the same time they are ruling out royalties, or act as though they are. So its just the same pro-crony anti-economics slime ball behaviour we see creeping into all things. There is no logic to it, so its simply tribal stupidity at play.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:28 pm
What an imbecile. What a moron. Can anyone tell me what is wrong with royalties? Someone other than this imbecile JC? The farmer did not homestead what was underneath the land, therefore obviously royalties are quite appropriate.
Or am I going too fast for the mentally incompetent here?
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:30 pm
You have economic rent, and you just simply, get rid of all other taxes in the industry, and match the royalties against the economic rent, as best you can. Its just economics people. That is all it is. But it appears that you cannot apply basic economics, being too morally bankrupt and then there is the problem if low IQ.
Economics is an authentic science. Its just a matter of applying it.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:33 pm
Bird
So what if a farmer wasn’t the first owner, you dickhead.
Go away and stop wrecking this thread.
JC
1 Jan 12 at 5:34 pm
The concept of rent has been refuted for 100′s of years, you mental midget.
As I said, go away and spend more time with your oiled up trannie.
JC
1 Jan 12 at 5:36 pm
No that is idiocy. Clearly there is economic rent in this situation, or imbeciles like yourself wouldn’t be so worried and concerned that farmers might make a lot of easy money. Don’t try it mate. You are just too mentally retarded. Accept your limitations you drooling retard.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:37 pm
Don’t respond JC
Entropy
1 Jan 12 at 5:38 pm
“Bird
So what if a farmer wasn’t the first owner”
Good Lord what an idiot!!!!! Holy crap. Don’t comment. You are just too dumb. What is going to happen if the farmer isn’t the first owner. Nothing you dead-head. Why are you so moronic. Go away.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:39 pm
Of course he shouldn’t respond. He’s a moron. So of course he shouldn’t respond. And neither should you. Until you find an argument against sound property titles, admit that I”m right or go away.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:40 pm
Imagine this idiot thinking that economic rent had been refuted as a concept? What a tool? Why would he say something as stupid as this? If you had total control of a property, where there was an old-fashioned gusher of an oil struck found, and the price of oil was 200 dollars per barrel, now supposing this property was real close to a shipping wharf……. Oh but you haven’t struck it lucky. Because the absolute total mentally retarded JC thinks that economic rent has been refuted.
How doesn’t anyone get this stupid?
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:43 pm
Hey I know what. I’ll get on the phone to Hernando De Soto, and point out to him that his decades-long work, showing the importance of clarity in property rights is all wrong. Thanks to a few mentally-retarded folks at Catallaxy, he need not continue to promote these concepts.
We might also nominate the dope JC for the nobel prize thanks to his releasing us from the dogma of economic rent. Great to get that piano off our backs right?
This is not a difficult matter. Its simply about applying stuff that is already known, in defiance of the bankers, and cronyists, who are profiting from the current setup, at great economic cost to us all.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 5:54 pm
Bird,
Please go away. Economic rent is a fallacious theory. It’s so absurd that suggests the most marginal mine would determine the profitability of the more profitable ones until a new less or more marginal mine is found.
It’s stupid. It’s commie thinking so no wonder you’d fall for it.
Now fuck off and stop abusing people, you clown.
JC
1 Jan 12 at 6:01 pm
Yep. It’s Bird again, anyone going to take bets on when the first meltdown will be?
Winston Smith
1 Jan 12 at 6:43 pm
Entropy, I should have clarified that it would not be at each gas well otherwise it would be quite an expensive endeavour (but the statement from the website seems to make that point). I do not know what the size of each compressor station is and if they are gas turbine driven (logical) or diesel driven (illogical). This would also dictate the amount of noise generated but compared to gas-fired power plants, the compressors and drivers would pale in comparison. I agree they are impressive.
I also do not know if the compressor stations have any sound insulation which could be a wall or barrier, enclosure (doubtful) or blanket (also doubtful). Contrary to comments by Apache disguised as Black Nobility, the stations may very well have some type of acoustic installation but I am not sure and from Apache’s comments, he/she certainly does not know.
As per my previous comments, I take issue with the alarm being presented making out as if the people working for the gas companies simply don’t care about people or the environment, which I find very hard to believe.
I also read about dredging of the Gladstone harbour and potential link with the “fish disease” but the link appears tenuous at best. The authorities (can’t recall the Department) have only tested 3 fish so far and claim it is not from dredging but testing is ongoing on a larger sample to find out the cause. From other numerous articles I have read surrounding the construction of the LNG plants in Gladstone, it appears that LNG is a very easy target for anything that goes wrong. It is an easy target.
Tom
1 Jan 12 at 6:51 pm
Well, yes, it is. Part of that is change, but also it is frigging huge,absolutely everywhere. And the risks are real, but I believe manageable.
And think about it from joe blow farmer’s perspective. There he is, king of all he surveys, or so he thought. But this mob of careless contractors get to drive all over his place, leaving gates open and cutting fences. At least they can’t do that without an access agreement anymore. But even with the new laws it is a ‘violation’ just the same, as he can’t prevent them coming on altogether. If he just keeps saying no eventually the land court will force access. It just forces home that they do not have as much rights on the land as they thought. And after a decade of the introduction of a whole heap of land management laws that increasingly restrict their activities to the extent they never know when some greenie feral is going to get them summonsed for what they know not.
So while I have a fair bit of sympathy, I can see the other side too. How dare they demand that their rights are more important than others? How dare they prevent access to the royalities that will build the schools, hospitals and roads of the future? Let alone the improvement in the standard of living for all.
And don’t get me started on that most glorious of all forms of bullshit, the ‘precautionary principle’.
Entropy
1 Jan 12 at 7:28 pm
No JC. Stop being an idiot. You don’t know anything about economic rent, and besides that you are a mental midget.
Now does anyone have an argument against clarity in property rights? Against royalties being the least cost tax in this scenario? Obviously not.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 7:43 pm
Tom? What is this? Stupid club? I didn’t make any claims about sound proofing.
“So while I have a fair bit of sympathy, I can see the other side too. How”
No there is no other side Entropy. Yet again its just you being a moron. No-one says that the farmers will prevent royalties being gained, if they are charged royalties. This is just you being an idiot.
If the farmers are charged royalties, obviously they will pay the royalties. How can you people be so stupid?
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 7:47 pm
So here you have your oil-well, on your farm, somewhat close to a shipping container, and Entropy is arguing, that if there is clarity in property rights, every farmer in that position will forego exploiting all the resources…..?
If you don’t have the mental ability to understand economics, listen, or ask intelligent questions. The mining companies also have the RIGHT not to mine. But this doesn’t mean they will always exercise their RIGHT not to mine, anymore than a farmer would.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 7:50 pm
Entropy, LNG plants are large but it’s not a new technology or unknown technology so it can be managed safely with minimal impact to the environment. Compare the situation to Chevron and the construction of a 2-4 train LNG plant on a Class A nature reserve (Barrow Island).
From the farmer’s perspective the company would have to handle things very delicately. I have no idea if it was done properly at the beginning but I can only imagine they have had to learn very quickly to do it right. I have no idea how it’s done but I hope the farmer is fully informed of what is about to happen, potential impact on them & their property and fairly compensated especially if things don’t go right. After all, you are operating in a community but I’m sure the companies are aware of their social responsibilities. It’s taking but also giving back (well I hope anyway).
Tom
1 Jan 12 at 7:55 pm
So the Entropy argument is what? That farmers, having the right to forego earning millions of dollars via mineral and energy resources, will forego that opportunity, on the basis of …… oh on the basis of Entropy’s stupidity. Yes thats right. We cannot have economic reform, simply because everyone is so dumb.
The failure to charge high enough royalties brings in massive banker dead-weight loss. Since it makes the capital value of projects very high. And of course the company taxes, and lease fees, auctions etc, there is incredible dead-weight loss and big shot favouritism will all of this. The only tax for this situation that doesn’t have massive dead-weight loss are royalties, so they ought to be the only tax. Not complicated.
The answer is simply to apply normal concepts of property rights and economics. But we have armies of idiots on the net running endless campaigns against reason in policy.
But no-one is quite as moronic as JC. Who this time has decided that there is no such thing as economic rent. He’s just a moron. But not being very bright, the rest of you, you don’t seem to pick this up.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 7:56 pm
I’d want one of you other geniuses to back JC up on this brain fart to do with economic rent. Like this total moron is capable of having an informed opinion on questions of economic doctrine. Yeah you wish dummy.
Apache
1 Jan 12 at 8:03 pm
Oops, I put in my details incorrectly (excuse the repeat that will appear soon).
Entropy, LNG plants are large but it’s not a new technology or unknown technology so it can be managed safely with minimal impact to the environment. Compare the situation to Chevron and the construction of a 2-4 train LNG plant on a Class A nature reserve (Barrow Island).
From the farmer’s perspective the company would have to handle things very delicately. I have no idea if it was done properly at the beginning but I can only imagine they have had to learn very quickly to do it right. I have no idea how it’s done but I hope the farmer is fully informed of what is about to happen, potential impact on them & their property and fairly compensated especially if things don’t go right. After all, you are operating in a community but I’m sure the companies are aware of their social responsibilities. It’s taking but also giving back (well I hope anyway).
Tom
1 Jan 12 at 8:03 pm
You are a clown Mr Moran. I know that many of the groups opposing this industry are only interested in saving thier own backyard (NIMBY) and that that is their achilles heal. However the way you characterize the benefits and potential costs of this industry leads me to believe that you are by no means an independent commentator and in light of this I must assume that you are nothing but a partisan hack (I would say spin doctor except a degree of talent is required). This industry has only been allowed to reach the stage of developement that it has due to lies by the companies to their shareholders, lies by the government to their constituents and the general ‘not give a shit about the environment’ attitude that occupies mainstream australian thought. Also throw in a touch of fear and greed. People living in rural Australia (that includes me, Chinchilla area) in the year 2075 will not be at all consoled by the fact that everyone got paid back when this industry was happening. THey will only be concerned that there are no more choices. And the cost of purifiying water is prohibitive. Life Jim, but not as we know it.
Kelly Fraser-Parle
2 Jan 12 at 1:22 pm