Midweek Forum: March 28, 2012

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1,191 Responses to Midweek Forum: March 28, 2012

  1. wreckage

    My point JC is that the break in the US system drives up costs but treats more patients more effectively. Especially trauma, by the WHO numbers. The more people you treat the more money you have to treat them with.

    The break in fully government-run system drives down survival and quality of care. The more people you treat the less money you have to treat them with.

  2. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    I’m sick of cleaning up “The War Room” blood is hard to get out of carpets

    Tal, go neo-feminist and take Gab’s advice; we should hand over the mucky jobs to the men.

    Thanks for your concern, Gab. The plumbing is fixed and the pizza is on its way: the usual vegetarian with the addition of a lot of meat. Makes being vegetarian (which we’re not) a pleasure.

    I was taken to the best vegetarian restaurant in Europe recently, in Zurich, with the man HIA calls my Aristo-Eurotrash admirer. It was half-way OK.

    Personally, I go for the guy who can sort out the drainage. Fireworks (true, for real) over the harbour right now.

  3. JC

    Which is why at the very least insurance needs to be by individual.

    Yep, but when you suggest that in the US he Demolitionists turn around and call you wacist. Bush actually tried to reform the system towards that direction in 2004 and he was accused of being wacist.

  4. Oh come on

    Wreckage: furthermore, there are a bunch of cancers and various other rare medical conditions that simply aren’t treated anywhere else other than in the USA. If you are struck down by one of these conditions and you aren’t in the USA (and can’t afford to travel there for treatment), you’ll be told that nothing can be done for you and put in a hospice.

    In America, you can pay for treatment that isn’t available elsewhere, and yeah, it’s expensive. Like, sell your house and that might cover it. So what would you prefer – a place where your rare condition can be treated for a hefty fee, or a place where there’s no treatment available for that condition at all and you’re simply told sorry but you’re going to die?

  5. JC

    In America, you can pay for treatment that isn’t available elsewhere, and yeah, it’s expensive. Like, sell your house and that might cover it. So what would you prefer – a place where your rare condition can be treated for a hefty fee, or a place where there’s no treatment available for that condition at all and you’re simply told sorry but you’re going to die?

    They have docs that specialize in particular families of cancer there and it can only be achieved through a heavy duty large scale medical system where that possibility opens up.

  6. JC

    Leftards,

    Answer the question.

    Do you think the market mechanism stops at the hospital doors?

  7. wreckage

    They really do think demand/supply/price stops at the doctors door.

    Because it’s morally wrong that medical treatment uses labour and capital Just Like Any Other Activity,
    and therefore requires money JLAOA

    and medical research and improvement of facilities and additional training and more staff all mean a medical enterprise has to be profitable JLAOA

    and that money will be invested elsewhere if medicine is less profitable than similarly risky enterprises, JLAOA

    and that if medicine is profitable it will automatically get resources efficiently and immediately from “the smart money”, JLAOA.

    All of this is morally wrong, and therefore it is absolutely imperative to pretend it is not true as well.

  8. Infidel Tiger

    Steve of B you pays no taxes and have no private insurance. You should keep the hell out of any argument on health systems.

  9. Oh come on

    JC: from what I understand, you have to go to private hospitals for such treatment. In Australia, private hospitals look nicer and the food’s better but, for the most part, you wouldn’t go to one for cutting edge treatment.

  10. Oh come on

    JC: of course they do. Just as it stops at the school gates.

    But not at the farm gate, weirdly enough.

  11. JC

    There’s one great example of what I’m talking about. Laser treatment correction for eyesight is not covered by medicare. the price of the service has been falling and falling ever since it was introduced.

    Clinics advertise on radio and stuff like that. As laser surgery has been falling in price the cost of every single fucking procedure done that is covered under medicare has been going up.

    There is no incentive to try and innovate in the larger medical system. None. And the reason is that its essentially a soviet model.

  12. JamesK

    IT,

    D’ya mean liar-stevefb™ is just another low grade leftist parasite?

    He’s not even a privately insured elitist leftist who believes in equality of outcome for everyone but themselves?

  13. JC

    JC: from what I understand, you have to go to private hospitals for such treatment. In Australia, private hospitals look nicer and the food’s better but, for the most part, you wouldn’t go to one for cutting edge treatment.

    Specialists etc work at different places, OCO. There are also private wings at some of the major hospitals.

  14. Oh come on

    I know you can go into a public hospital as a private patient.

    I don’t know for sure (I have no direct experience – never get sick, touch wood) but a doctor friend told me he wouldn’t seek treatment at a private hospital in Australia for anything major. He’s no socialist, either.

  15. Gab

    Neo-feminist

    I like that. I’m adopting that from now on.

  16. Oh come on

    I thought neo-feminism basically says gender is irrelevant…

  17. JC

    Dunno, OCO, but I wouldn’t have a problem seeking treatment at this place for instance.

    http://www.cabrini.com.au/

    Their doc choice is truly superb. They do all sort of crap there and the fucking rooms are clean and the staff nice enough.

  18. JC

    Ladies,

    Take your feminism and shove it. There’s none of that feminazi crapola here thanks.

  19. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    They have docs that specialize in particular families of cancer there and it can only be achieved through a heavy duty large scale medical system where that possibility opens up.

    This happened to a friend of mine. He paid many thousands of dollars for special US treatment after others here had said he should prepare his Will, and he’s still going seven years later. Sold his big house in Paddington to pay for some of it, and moved into an apartment. Still enjoying life.

  20. Gab

    It may do, OCO. But I understand it to be (per Lizzie) more about letting men be men and attend to icky stuff, like burst plumbing, clogged toilets, etc.

  21. Infidel Tiger

    but a doctor friend told me he wouldn’t seek treatment at a private hospital in Australia for anything major.

    That doesn’t sound right at all. I’d be avoiding the public alternative with every fibre of my being.

  22. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Take your feminism and shove it. There’s none of that feminazi crapola here thanks.

    OK, JC. We will just be girlfriends or Cat-chicks. Is that better?

  23. Gab

    JC, not feminazi (spit). Neo-feminism – where males and females are recognised as different genders with opposite and complimentary traits. :)

  24. Jarrah

    “The US medical system is second to none”

    That’s true. It’s 1st in cost per person, 37th in overall performance, 42nd in life expectancy, and 72nd by overall level of health… but it’s second to none.

  25. Kelly of Kenmore

    Who’d be poor and sick in America?

    Answer: The vast majority of the population sooner or later.

    Though not one voluntarily.

  26. Oh come on

    It’s a good thing Stephen Smith didn’t become PM, because he’s going to lose his seat for certain at the next election, along with any other sitting ALP member in WA:

    Carbon tax to show on WA utility bills

    Good show. Queensland, take note. It’d be nice if NSW and Vic followed suit, but I’m not holding my breath.

  27. Somebody (besides me) was interested in Michael Kroger’s humiliation of ALP deadbeat Bruce Hawker on Sky’s election telecast.

    Here it is, starting at 3:08…

    Thanks CL, as I said in the OT, if Sky promises to have Kroger & Costello on the coverage of the smashing of the worst government in Australian history, I’m willing to subscribe.

  28. Kelly of Kenmore

    The biggest deadbeat is Australian politics evah is Costello.

    What a career dud.

  29. C.L.

    Part of the reason public hospitals are so awful is the destruction of the nursing vocation by left-wing union stewards. Their big idea was to make it a ‘profession.’ The result is that the provision of basic, comforting, dignity-assuring service is now considered infra dig. There are now chiefs galore but hardly any Indians.

    Or too many Indians, in the case of Queensland.

  30. JamesK

    “The US medical system is second to none”

    That’s true. It’s 1st in cost per person, 37th in overall performance, 42nd in life expectancy, and 72nd by overall level of health… but it’s second to none.

    U talk crapola, Jarrah as usual.

    I think Cuba is 36 or somesuch.

    Go there for ur knee replacement, mitral valve repair, implantable defibrillator, coronory stents or bridge to transplant LVAD and subsequent heart transplant like Dick Cheney, u clown.

  31. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Oooooooooh, one of the girlfriends just walked in. Hi Kel. Sensibly sticking to the topic of health ‘cos she’s a serious chick.

    NHS in Britain gave me an urgent skull MRI in a machine where the operator to patient communication system was broken. It was like being entombed alive without help. MRI’s are like having your head in a concrete mixer at the best of times. It was free of course, but not very good. Plus that system really wants to own you. They tell you off about every little thing and seem to have surplus staff all over the place doing just that. Added to that, it’s really hard to just walk into a doctor off the street when you’re travelling around, they want to pin you down to one place so they can check everything about you.

  32. JamesK

    The result is that the provision of basic, comforting, dignity-assuring service is now considered infra dig. There are now chiefs galore but hardly any Indians.

    Medicos call ‘em the clipboard-carrying brigade.

  33. Kelly of Kenmore

    Apart from being verbally lame as smashed potato, Costello has a very bad case of facial downward gravity syndrome. He looks like he is melting from the head down.

    Note to Costello. Have a facelift and all else that it takes to look presentable again in civilised company. Pronto dude.

  34. C.L.

    Look at these beautiful birds:

    http://viralfootage.com/?p=22742

    Their conversation is better than Q&A.

  35. JamesK

    but a doctor friend told me he wouldn’t seek treatment at a private hospital in Australia for anything major.

    That doesn’t sound right at all. I’d be avoiding the public alternative with every fibre of my being.

    He/she’s probably referring to small private hospitals which don’t have staff doctors or many of ‘em and don’t have an ICU with ICU speecialists on site.

    It depends what you go to the small private hospital to have done.

    It doesn’t refer to the large cities’ major private hospitals.

    Private hospitals in the US are completely different.

    They are staffed like public hospitals here.

    It’s like comparing apples and oranges.

  36. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    The Ape watching the Champions League. Tells me it is recognised as extremely difficult, perhaps chromosomally impossible, to try to explain the offside rule to women. I have all sorts of questions about its application. Who judges, and when, and how do they tell when things are moving so fast, and why is it necessary etc etc? He says, just watch, because it doesn’t get any better than this. I think it’s just over now.

    BTW, tell us about your brilliant career again, Kel. Costello doing OK in my book.

  37. Oh come on

    OK. As I said, don’t know from personal experience, just going on what others have told me.

    CL: two nice vids. Thanks for the Kroger mauling one – that was vintage.

  38. JamesK

    Doesn’t Kelly of Kenmore have insight into the fact that s/he/it is a fvckwit?

  39. Oh come on

    Doesn’t Kelly of Kenmore have insight into the fact that s/he/it is a fvckwit?

    Doesn’t the pope heart the Cuban government?

  40. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    No. It’s half way through. We have yet to see Chelsea and Benfica (top Portuguese club, fyi Lizzie). Then we’ve got Bayern (Munich) and Marseilles. Educating Lizzie going on here. I quite like the travelogue part, we are now in Lisbon. Happy memories. Stanford Bridge next week, the great win of Harald Godwinson against Harald Hardrakka, the Viking, after which he marched south in two weeks to battle William the Norman at Hastings. The Ape’s generous Irish verdict: for a Saxon, Harald is very much under-estimated.

  41. Gab

    Look at these beautiful birds:

    They’re very funny. Cute clip.

  42. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    No link, Gab.

    Chelsea have just won ‘the first leg’, i.e. they live to play another day.

  43. candy

    “Candy that was awful”

    How about this one mr. oh come on, if you be fussy:

    What do you call a dead chicken that likes to scare people?

    A Poultrygeist

  44. Oh come on

    Candy, never do that again

  45. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Candy, do you have a job writing those super-lame jokes inside the Christmas crackers?

    e.g. A terrible thing happened when two peanuts were walking down the street. One was assaulted. Boom tish.

  46. Oh come on

    Candy, they’re so bad they’re not even fit for the ‘Dad Joke’ category

  47. candy

    okay one last one:

    What do skeletons say before a meal?

    Bone appetite.

  48. JamesK

    Ya goota love the Left when they panic

    The threats are never subtle.

    NYT: Parties Brace for Fallout in Court’s Ruling on Health Care By JEFF ZELENY (the reporter that Santorum said: “bullshit!” to.)

    “If this court overturns the individual mandate, it will galvanize Democrats to use the courts as a campaign issue,” said Neera Tanden, president of the Center for American Progress, a liberal research organization. “The idea that we would have gone through Bush v. Gore, Citizens United and now this.”

    Mr. Obama, who has signaled his intention to run against Congress in the mold of Harry S. Truman, could add the Supreme Court to his list of antagonists. It remains an open question whether the argument will resonate as it did in 1936 for Roosevelt.

  49. Oh come on

    From Insty: Couple who fled home after Spike Lee tweet hires Morgan firm

    Most here are probably aware Spike Lee tweeted George Zimmerman’s address. Perhaps they don’t know that he tweeted an innocent elderly couple’s address, not that of George Zimmerman.

    Excellent. Hope he has to spend the proceeds of his next few movies on compensating them.

  50. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    The birdies were extremely sweet, ta Gab.

    Bayern have beaten Marseille 2-nil. Semi-final will be Bayern and Real Madrid. 100%,for sure, he says. That will be a great game, he beams with such heartbreaking enthusiasm. Men are so pleased by the simplest of things.

    What are you blogging about now, he asks indulgently, not missing a beat to add “It will be fantastic, they are both great teams”. “Yep”. “Yep”.
    “Yep”, he agrees with the commentator, “It will be a fantastic semi-final”. Talking to the tele, now, he is.

  51. JamesK

    Talking to the tele, now, he is.

    If he’s a paddy like me, it sounds like ur talkin’ like him ‘ye are

  52. JamesK

    Politico: Why overturning health care would be a Democratic disaster

    Democrats are, understandably, spinning like tops to put the best possible face on a Supreme Court strike-down of the entire Affordable Care Act, which now seems entirely plausible.

    This, from James Carville, who told CNN: “I think that this will be the best thing that ever happen to the Democratic party because health care costs are gonna escalate unbelievably… I honestly believe this, this is not spin.”

  53. Jumpnmcar

    WTF, Just got my youngest lads school (cattletick) email newsletter and some fat chick calling herself the ” environmental coordinator ” is banging on about Earth hour.

    I wasn’t told i was paying for that shit.

  54. JamesK

    WSJ on Day 3, short version:

    It wasn’t the defense of ObamaCare that was bad.

    It was the law itself. All 2700 pages!

    The ObamaCare Reckoning
    Overturning the whole law would be an act of judicial restraint.

    After the third and final day of Supreme Court scrutiny of the Affordable Care Act, the bravado of the legal establishment has turned to uncertainty and in some cases outright panic. Everyone who said the decision was an easy fait accompli has been proven wrong by a Court that has treated the constitutional questions that ObamaCare poses with the seriousness they deserve.

    This reckoning has also been a marvelous public education. The oral arguments have detailed the multiple ways in which the individual mandate upsets the careful equilibrium of the American political system. The Obama Administration’s arguments in favor of the mandate to buy health insurance or pay a penalty stand exposed as a demand for unlimited federal power.

    Most of the Justices seem to be discomfited by this proposition, to one degree or another, and in Wednesday’s session they grappled with the Court’s options and the consequences if the mandate falls. Over the 90-minute exchange the Justices conducted a tutorial about the limits of judicial power in handling a huge bill if its core is found to be unconstitutional.

    The issue is known as “severability,” or what happens to the rest of a law if part of it is struck down. Usually Congress includes a clause that clearly defines its intent in that event. But the Obama Democrats neglected to include one amid the political rush to pass the law, and Supreme Court precedents are less than clear.

    The Court could uphold the individual mandate, in which case the point is moot. It could overturn the mandate without invalidating any other provision. Or it could say that everything else never would have passed without the mandate, so everything else should be taken down with it.

    That last is the persuasive contention of Paul Clement, the attorney who argued for the 26 states challenging the law. He argued that the mandate is “the very heart of this act” because it is meant to subsidize the insurance regulations that drive up costs. It forces the younger and healthier to buy coverage they may not need to finance people who consume more health care.

    That requirement is also tied to ObamaCare’s “exchanges” where everyone will buy coverage, which are in turn tied to the new entitlement subsidies, which are in turn tied to the Medicaid expansion, the many tax increases and all the other things on the periphery of the law that wouldn’t have passed without the individual mandate.

    Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said Mr. Clement is asking the Court to conduct “a wrecking operation,” before stating that “the more conservative approach would be salvage rather than throwing out everything.”

  55. candy

    “Note to Costello. Have a facelift and all else that it takes to look presentable again in civilised company. Pronto dude.”

    Mr Costello is the best treasurer Australia has ever had. His wife and family must be so very proud of him.

    Talk about living national treasures – Mr Costello really is one. so there Miss K! put that in your pipe.

  56. JamesK

    NYT Editorial
    Activism and the Roberts Court

    Under general principles, courts must avoid nullifying more of a law than is necessary. Justice Anthony Kennedy suggested that it would be more extreme to preserve part of the statute than to strike down the whole thing because that would alter Congress’s intent. He could avoid this problem by upholding the mandate.

    Oh God! But this is just too delicious.

  57. JamesK

    Candy, I liked the atom/electron/positvity joke

  58. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    it sounds like ur talkin’ like him ‘ye are

    Oh Good Lord, I didn’t realise it was contagious.

  59. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Oh, my. Very cruel Pickering caricature of Gillard, she looks like a life support system for a bum.

  60. JamesK

    Oh Good Lord, I didn’t realise it was contagious.

    arrah to be sure to be sure

  61. Peter Patton

    Having now caught up with the Obamacare SCOTUS argy-bargy, Americans should be scared to death if the majority actually let it through. The Feds arguments and counsel have been woeful.

  62. Mk50 of Brisbane

    These 14 hour workdays suck.

    Fortunately, there’s gambolling cretins about to laugh at!

    Les the racist kiddie:

    …takes[s] the post-modern posture that words have no real fixed meaning, and he can just play around with them as he wants. He says something dumb, or uses racially abusive terms, then he absolves himself by saying the words he used didn’t have their obvious import, but rather a special, private import ….

    The usual narcissism and lies from Les the racist Jew-baiter. What he’s arguing here is that only his interpretation can be valid.

    Consistent use of an insult when referring to terrorists, either directly or contextually does not matter to him.

    According to this quite nutty view, there is no such thing as a homonym! And to our dear mental midget, homonyms invoke conspiracy theory in what I laughingly call les’s ‘mind’.

    Hey Les, when someone say ‘good night’ to you, you must automatically believe it racist and anti-Islamic, as they MUST be referring to the Knights Templar being good, eh? :lol:

    To bolster this hilarious ‘argument’ Les uses ad hominem and invective. So clever. No lefty has ever been so smart before.

    Now you might find that plausible and acceptable, but that’s because you aren’t very bright and have extremely poor critical thinking skills.

    dumbarses, … weaselly turd

    This passes for logical discourse in Les’s primary school playground.

    John Mc, Kelly Liddle etc

    The Jews have been in Israel without interruption since the early bronze Age. Perhaps 5000 years. For most of that time there were a majority. Even Titus Flavius Caesar Vespasianus Augustus, after the Great Revolt, only forcibly exiled about a fifth of the Jewish population.

    The only independent polities which have ever existed there since the early bronze age Canaanite and Philistine city states were the Jewish Kingdoms. There has never once in history been an independent Arab state or entity in current day Israel’s borders (including the west bank and Gaza). There has been an array of Christian-Jewish petty kingdoms in Outremer but these wee hardly independent. The Jewish presence predates the first Arab by about 2000 years – and they were Christian and Nabatean arabs. Judaism predates Islam by about 3500 years.

    During the long Ottoman occupation, the Jewish population fluctuated between 25 and 50% or so.

    Kelly Liddle: Neocon (Neo-Conservative)

    Definition:

    A neoconservative (also spelled “neo-conservative”; colloquially, neocon) in American politics can appear to be conservative while in fact favoring big government, interventionalism, and a hostility to religion in politics and government. Many neocons had been liberals in their youth and admired President Franklin D. Roosevelt. The movement emerged in the mid 1970s, played a limited role in the Ronald Reagan Administration, and then dominated the George W. Bush Administration after 2001. Neoconservatives are often preferred by liberals to portray the conservative voice in the media, as in television talk shows, newspaper columnists, magazines, think tanks, and advisory positions in Republican Administrations.

    In contrast to traditional conservatives, neoconservatives favor globalism, downplay religious issues, [and] are unlikely to actively oppose abortion and homosexuality. Neocons disagree with paleoconservatives on issues such as classroom prayer, the separation of powers, cultural unity, and immigration. Neocons favor a strong active state in world affairs. Neocons oppose affirmative action with greater emphasis and priority than other conservatives do.

    On foreign policy, neoconservatives believe that democracy can and should be installed by the United States around the world, even in Muslim countries such as Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

    JC – “Think for a minute Les.” Comedy Gold! Best joke of the week by a country mile. Les. Being able to think. :lol:

  63. Tal

    Mark, sorry to read about your mate passing away

  64. Peter Patton

    One of the very first thing they tell newbies in law schools is to prepare themselves for how much their thinking on all political and contentious issues will change by the end of 1sr semester. If their thinking did not change by then, they would probably Fail, because the 1st semester is supposed to shock them into “thinking like a lawyer.”

    I took to the ‘thinking like a lawyer’ thing with great gusto. It took about 10 days. So when I read all these lawyers appearing before the USSC rabbiting on about neat it will be black folks can go to a white school, or Obamacare will save 49,000 lives, my eyes just glaze over.

    Imagine how the judges must feel. ‘Why are you lecturing about policy and what would be ‘neat’. If I got off on that I would have run for Congress, or got a job in an agency. From now on, unless you are quoting the legislative powers explicitly stated in the Constitution, please STFU.

  65. Lazlo

    There is an interesting theory that the Jews escaped Egypt at the time of the Theran eruption. This eruption plausibly caused the seven plagues, all of which phenomena have occured as a result of other volcanoes.

    Thera was almost certainly, in my mind, the cause of the Akhenaten Heresy – the monotheistic worship of the Sun God, and the move to Amarna.

  66. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Thanks Tal. He was a good bloke, and he’s sorely missed. Huge shock to a lot of people.

  67. dover_beach

    takes[s] the post-modern posture that words have no real fixed meaning,

    The irony here is this posture derives directly from modern philosophy; there really is nothing post-modern about it. And this was simply the consequence of the early moderns rejection of Aristotelian and Thomistic thought. That is obvious from recent debates here on the Cat.

  68. Calpurnia's Cat

    Oh here you are

  69. Lazlo

    So the first recorded manifestations of monotheism – Akhenatism and Judaism – occur at about the same time.

  70. Max Scream

    The Jews have been in Israel without interruption since the early bronze Age.

    The idea to conquer Palestine and dispossess its people of legal ownership of their own property and drive them into exile was an idea hatched and executed by Europeans.

  71. kae

    Keating: Gillard an idiot…

    What, he just realised that?

  72. Lazlo

    You must be on powerful drugs. There has never been even an idea of a state of Palestine until the late 20th century.

    Jews have been dispossesed of ownership of property and driven away for centuries.

    There is no smouldering issue here of right and wrong. Unless you are a simpleton of course.

  73. JC

    Note to Costello. Have a facelift and all else that it takes to look presentable again in civilised company. Pronto dude.

    Kenmore, try and age gracefully instead of all those knife wounds all over your face.

  74. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Well, there’s always validation in that Jewish commedians’ joke: Keep taking the tablets, Moses.

  75. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    .. comedian with one m (can’t spell late at nite, and so to bed)

  76. JC

    No kidding. This is a Congresswoman. Look! WTF!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_3do_LYSwI&feature=player_embedded#!

    Keith the media studies ag school graduate does some serious interviewing. Just his his expression.

  77. Token

    It will be interesting to see how Hartcher and the NoFax crowd tie this image of this registered Democrat voter in the crosshairs of a gun to the Tea Party, Sarah Palin and Yabott.

  78. wreckage

    37th in overall performance, 42nd in life expectancy, and 72nd by overall level of health

    jarrah, you’re ignoring the fact that almost all of the US’s poor performance is due to infant mortality and obesity, which drives the life expectancy and thus overall score down. In trauma care and surgery they are quite good, and they also drive most research into drugs and technology.

    It’s hard to do a like-for-like between, say, Denmark, and a country as dispersed, diverse, and chock-full of virtually illiterate immigrants as the USA. For example, the major cause of lead poisoning in Texas for years was a Mexican folk-remedy that involved administration of lead salts, and illegally imported Mexican glazed ceramic wares that used lead paint. True story. That and the race ghettos in some cities and the South originate in history, not in the hospital system, and the poverty and illiteracy have a massive impact on infant mortality.

    Short answer: almost all the WHO measures of health outcomes can be driven by infant mortality plus obesity, and those are driven by culture, one way or another, not by hospitals. Isolate them out and the USA does fine. Isolate out the free-riding on US pharmaceuticals and techniques, and the rest of the world loses most of any advantages.

  79. wreckage

    The idea to conquer Palestine and dispossess its people of legal ownership of their own property and drive them into exile was an idea hatched and executed by Europeans.

    Yes, but which do you mean? The ancient Greeks or the Roman Empire?

  80. JC

    You’re wasting your time, Wreckage. Jazzabelle argues simply from a leftwing ideological point and there’s no point trying to reason with him. He also has little understand on basic stats.

  81. Lazlo

    Yes, but what have the Romans ever done for us?

  82. Mk50
    Thanks for the definition of neocon and yes there are a few of them around here.

    while in fact favoring big government, interventionalism, and a hostility to religion in politics and government.

    I don’t know about the hostility to regligion bit as someone like Santorum fits the other 2 parts of the definition but appears he would like a religious state. I suppose nobody would fit the full definition.

  83. JamesK

    Andrea ‘Plastique’ Mitchell NBC and Jarrah are as one:

    NBC’s Andrea Mitchell Praises ‘Highly Regarded’ Cuban Health Care System Indoctrinating U.S. Med Students

    In a piece of propaganda that would make Cuba’s Castro regime proud, on her Tuesday MSNBC program, NBC chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell cheered the communist state’s “highly regarded” health care system, “and especially one of Fidel Castro’s signature projects, which is training doctors, doctors who then provide free medical care throughout Latin America.”

    Mitchell proclaimed: “As the U.S. debates health care….We went back to the Latin American medical school here to talk to American medical students about what they’re learning about medicine, about Cuba, and about themselves.” That soon became disturbingly apparent as student Cynthia Aguilera gushed: “…after graduating with no debt, no worries about paying off loans and having to get a high-paying job, we can return to our communities [in the U.S.] and work in them and try to uplift them the same way that Cuba uplifted us.”

  84. JamesK

    More NYT Leftism: The Case for Raising Top Tax Rates

    But now, a growing body of research suggests not only that the government could raise much more revenue by sharply raising the top tax rates paid by the richest Americans, but it could do so without slowing economic growth. Top tax rates could go as high as 80 percent or more.

  85. JC

    The freaking reality is that it’s unlikely that person will be able to practice medicine in the US unless s/he passes testing.

    And in any event I read that the Cuban medical schools are basically glorified nursing schools anyways.

  86. JC

    This could cause the Kenyan some trouble.. serious trouble.

    This makes it sorta personal and in a way Americans can relate to.

    ‘SO MUCH HATE COMING FROM THE PRESIDENT’ Says Zimmerman’s father.

    He also morphs the Kenyan, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP and the race hucksters as one. This is not good for the Kenyan.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnEQQnj7eXo&feature=g-logo&context=G25e6b8fFOAAAAAAAEAA

  87. Jarrah

    wreckage, I see a lot of assertions from you, but no supporting evidence. I’d be grateful if you would provide some, particularly for “chock-full of virtually illiterate immigrants” (considering the literacy rate is approximately 99%) and “free-riding” (considering the prices paid). I also wonder about your logic: the US has a great medical system, once you take out everything that makes it not so great, and make allowances for all sorts of factors. However, I’m glad that you’re pointing out to virtually illiterate JC the US’s poor performance in some areas – he apparently believes it’s “second to none”, instead of being comparatively expensive and ineffective.

  88. JC

    Jazzabelle

    However, I’m glad that you’re pointing out to virtually illiterate JC the US’s poor performance in some areas – he apparently believes it’s “second to none”, instead of being comparatively expensive and ineffective.

    So you’re back to your old ways. When nothing is left you resort to lying and adhoms, but thankfully this time not laced with your sanctimonious moralizing that you do so well.

    Wreckage explained nicely, in fact far too nicely, that the outcomes you presented are not the fault of the medical system, you loon. And yet you turn around and suggest his arguments support yours you delusional fool.

    And yes, Jazzabelle the US medical system is second to none. But go ahead, keep peddling universal statist solutions, you phoney.

  89. JC

    Here’s a really good piece by Megan McArdle and discussing the US system and what other insurance systems are there that are good value.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-myth-of-the-free-market-american-health-care-system/254210/

    Note, it’s not the EU’s.

  90. C.L.

    WTF?

    Why is that congresswoman wearing a sparkly cowboy hat on television and during congressional hearings?

  91. C.L.

    Is she bald or what?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederica_Wilson

    Wilson is an avid wearer of hats. She has a large collection that includes hundreds of hats of all different varieties. She wears one every day to honor her late grandmother. She has asked House Speaker John Boehner to waive the rule prohibiting the wearing of hats on the floor of the House of Representatives, a rule in place since 1837.

    Boehner should have refused.

  92. JC

    I have no idea. Note how Keith pretends its like any other normal interview.

  93. wreckage

    Jarrah, just read what I said and stop acting like I must be a blind idiot who opposes you out of a perverse love of bullshit. I don’t piss on you, quid pro quo, allright?

    Mexican immigrants are often ignorant about surprising things like lead salts being bad for you. I found that researching “lead poisoning in Texas”. I don’t know what to call this apart from a kind of illiteracy. Not exactly illiteracy, yes, for sure, I agree, but not stupidity. Just a hole in their education.

    America is far, far more “chock full” of immigrants than say, Denmark. Homogenous and well-educated populations of 5 million living in a postage-stamp of delightful greenery and spacious urban areas are going to have better health than huge, disparate populations with patchy education scattered across massive rural landscapes and clumped in shitty cities.

    I say Denmark because I was engaged about five years ago in an ongoing discussion between me on the slightly-right and a dude from Denmark on the slightly-left as we argued back and forth over the US health system, since a mutual acquaintance from the USA had a disabled kid who’d needed a lot of care. Neither Mr Denmark nor Mr Australia new much about the respective systems of the three nations, but Mr USA knew a fair bit about the USA from a practical perspective.

    Mr USA was left of me and right of him so we ended up in a pretty long discussion in text windows and chatrooms over about a fortnight.

    Go troll through the WHO website for a couple of hours. I lost the bookmarks and on a cursory inspection I cannot find the tables that allow per-country comparisons broken down by category. Honestly, as long as you’re just “AHA! STUPID STUPIDS ARE STUPID!” I really honestly don’t give a fuck. Sometimes you’re intelligent and interesting or I wouldn’t bother engaging.

    Free riding: I mean on research. Argue, fine, but it’s been posed as a problem. US health is fucking expensive, and they originate most new therapies. Other health is often cheaper and originates far fewer. Hey, maybe there’s no connection at all.

    I also wonder about your logic: the US has a great medical system, once you take out everything that makes it not so great, and make allowances for all sorts of factors

    My comment is what it is. Stop assuming I’m JC. FMD. I pointed out that they are way behind in obesity. Is obesity caused by health insurance? Really? Then why are Aussies so fucking fat?

    I pointed out that they’re way behind in infant mortality. That’s what I recall from my reading back then. Now, I’ve also read that disadvantaged black communities drive that statistic, with hygiene, education, nutrition, drug use all being significant, and all are attributable to poverty and social problems, and in communities with those problems, health insurance doesn’t mean a pinch of shit. Comparably fucked-over populations in fully public systems can and do have the same problems. Witness, Aboriginal communities here.

    You’re often a realist, Jarrah. You might consider the idea that you’re not the only one on the fucking planet.

  94. JC

    More on Jazza’s rankings and the 37th in the world ranking from a CATO study.

    Numerous studies have attempted to
    compare the quality of health care systems.
    In most of these surveys, the United States
    fares poorly, finishing well behind other
    industrialized countries. This has led critics
    of the U.S. health care system to suggest that
    Americans pay more for health care but
    receive less.

    There are several reasons to be skeptical of
    these rankings. First, many choose areas of
    comparison based on the results they wish to
    achieve, or according to the values of the comparer.
    For example, SiCKO cites a 2000 World
    Health Organization study that ranks the U.S.
    health care system 37th in the world, “slightly
    better than Slovenia.
    ”18 (See Table 1.)
    This study bases its conclusions on such
    highly subjective measures as “fairness” and
    criteria that are not strictly related to a country’s
    health care system, such as “tobacco control.”
    For example, the WHO report penalizes
    the United States for not having a sufficiently
    progressive tax system, not providing all citizens
    with health insurance, and having a general
    paucity of social welfare programs.

    It’s almost fucking impossible to deal with leftwing idiots like Jazzabelle because they end up picking junk stats and you spend time destroying them.

    Fucking unbelievable.

    Will he apoligize? Of course not, he just goes away for a few days then comes back here and starts trolling again.

    Read it here:

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-613.pdf
    More in the CATO piece here:

  95. JC

    More:

    The United States is actually
    penalized for adopting Health Savings
    Accounts and because, according to the WHO,
    patients pay too much out of pocket.19 Such
    judgments clearly reflect a particular political
    point of view, rather than a neutral measure of
    health care quality. Notably, the WHO report
    ranks the United States number one in the
    world in responsiveness to patients’ needs in
    choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, timely
    care, and confidentiality.20

  96. JC

    More:

    Difficulties even arise when using more
    neutral categories of comparison. Nearly all
    cross-country rankings use life expectancy as
    one measure. In reality though, life expectancy
    is a poor measure of a health care system.
    Life expectancies are affected by exogenous
    factors such as violent crime, poverty, obesity,
    tobacco and drug use, and other issues unrelated
    to health care. As the Organisation for
    Economic Co-operation and Development
    explains, “It is difficult to estimate the relative
    contribution of the numerous nonmedical
    and medical factors that might affect
    variations in life expectancy across countries
    and over time.”21 Consider the nearly threeyear
    disparity in life expectancy between
    Utah (78.7 years) and Nevada (75.9 years),
    despite the fact that the two states have
    essentially the same health care systems.22 In
    fact, a study by Robert Ohsfeldt and John
    Schneider for the American Enterprise
    Institute found that those exogenous factors
    are so distorting that if you correct for homicides
    and accidents, the United States rises to
    the top of the list for life expectancy.23

  97. JC

    Infant Mortality rates:

    The US seems to try harder to keep low weight babies alive as much as it can.

    Similarly, infant mortality, a common measure
    in cross-country comparisons, is highly
    problematic. In the United States, very low
    birth-weight infants have a much greater
    chance of being brought to term with the latest
    medical technologies. Some of those low birthweight
    babies die soon after birth, which
    boosts our infant mortality rate, but in many
    other Western countries, those high-risk, low
    birth-weight infants are not included when
    infant mortality is calculated.24

  98. JC

    More
    Leftards always talk about the vaunted Cuban medical system and it’s low infant mortality rate. More kids are aborted, that’s all.

    In addition many countries use abortion to eliminate
    problem pregnancies. For example, Michael
    Moore cites low infant mortality rates in Cuba,
    yet that country has one of the world’s highest
    abortion rates, meaning that many babies with
    health problems that could lead to early deaths
    are never brought to term.25

  99. wreckage

    But the WHO stats can be broken up by actual medical outcomes – at least they used to be – and you can then compare like with like.

    But even then you can have problems. Some things are only treatable at high cost, at high risk, and in the USA. Elsewhere you die for sure but your surgery and treatment are not failures – they didn’t exist at all, so can’t fail – but in the US you statistically end up jacking up the failed treatments.

  100. JC

    More:

    When you compare the outcomes for specific
    diseases, the United States clearly outperforms
    the rest of the world. Whether the disease
    is cancer, pneumonia, heart disease, or
    AIDS, the chances of a patient surviving are far
    higher in the United States than in other countries.
    For example, according to a study published
    in the British medical journal The Lancet,
    the United States is at the top of the charts
    when it comes to surviving cancer. Among
    men, roughly 62.9 percent of those diagnosed
    with cancer survive for at least five years. The
    news is even better for women: the five year-survival
    rate is 66.3 percent, or two-thirds. The
    countries with the next best results are Iceland
    for men (61.8 percent) and Sweden for women
    (60.3 percent). Most countries with national
    health care fare far worse. For example, in Italy,
    59.7 percent of men and 49.8 percent of
    women survive five years. In Spain, just 59 percent
    of men and 49.5 percent of women do.
    And in Great Britain, a dismal 44.8 percent of
    men and only a slightly better 52.7 percent of
    women live for five years after diagnosis.26
    Notably, when former Italian prime minister
    Silvio Berlusconi needed heart surgery last
    year, he didn’t go to a French, Canadian,
    Cuban, or even Italian hospital—he went to the
    Cleveland Clinic in Ohio.27 Likewise, Canadian
    MP Belinda Stronach had surgery for her breast
    cancer at a California hospital.28 Berlusconi and
    Stronach were following in the footsteps of
    tens of thousands of patients from around the
    world who come to the United States for treatment
    every year.29 One U.S. hospital alone, the
    Mayo Clinic, treats roughly 7,200 foreigners
    every year. Johns Hopkins University Medical
    Center treats more than 6,000, and the
    Cleveland Clinic more than 5,000.

  101. JC

    Note the chart on page 6 that shows the numbers of MRI’s and Cat scans per head and the US is by far on top while the poor EU countries at at the bottom of the heap.

  102. JC

    Yes wreckage like the attempt to save low weight babies etc.

    The amount of fucking swill that comes out about the US medical system is appalling.

    Fisky makes a decent point that the Left should no longer ever be part of these debates are they generally are too ignorant, innumerate and prone to emotive nonsense and of course lying. The lying is the worst aspect.

  103. JC

    More

    Global budgets and fee restrictions for hospitals have led to a recurring lack of capital investment, resulting in a shortage of medical technology and lack of access to the most advanced care.

    But hey, you get to visit the GP who tells you there’s nothing they can do.

  104. C.L.

    This study bases its conclusions on such
    highly subjective measures as “fairness” and
    criteria that are not strictly related to a country’s
    health care system, such as “tobacco control.”

    LOL.

    Jarrah brought this junk to the discussion?

    You really are an alley-cat, Jarrah, dragging old mouse remains and dead budgies into the polemical parlour.

  105. JC

    More Unbelievable. Italy’s system by the WHO is rated number 2 after France.

    I

    taly’s national health care system is rated
    second in the world by the WHO.89 Yet a closer
    examination shows the system to be deeply
    troubled, plagued with crippling bureaucracy,
    mismanagement and general disorganization,
    spiraling costs, and long waiting lists.
    Generally, the Italian system is similar to
    the British National Health Service but enjoys
    more decentralization. The central government
    sets goals on how money should be
    spent, monitors the overall health status of the

  106. wreckage

    JC’s link is to a pretty decent summary of some of the things I found out under my own steam a few years back. The references would be a good place to start.

  107. JC

    and how does no 2 perform? (Italy)

    Conditions in Italy’s public hospitals are considered
    substandard, particularly in the south. They lack not just modern technology, but basic goods and services; and overcrowding is widespread.

    Mind you this is the WHO that ranked the US 37th.

  108. JC

    More

    Spain has a universal system. But good luck finding a GP.

    Spain has fewer physicians and fewer nurses per capita than most European countries and the United States. The lack of primary care physicians is particularly acute.

  109. JC

    more

    Waiting lists are so long and so prevalent that theEuropean Observatory on Health Systems says that they veer toward “de facto rationing

  110. This review looking at the JC claim that US health care is “second to none” in terms of quality and outcomes reads as pretty fair to me (it notes the many limitations and difficulties in doing the comparisons.) However, it’s conclusions are still:

    the picture that emerges from the information available on technical quality and related aspects of health system performance is a mixed bag, with the United States doing relatively well in some areas — such as cancer care — and less well in others — such as mortality from conditions amenable to prevention and treatment. Many Americans would be surprised by the findings from studies showing that U.S. health care is not clearly superior to that received by Canadians, and that in some respects Canadian care has been shown to be of
    higher quality….

    While evidence is not conclusive, it is clear that the argument that reform of the U.S. health system stands to endanger “the best health care quality in the world” lacks foundation. Like other countries, the United States has been found to have both
    strengths and weaknesses in terms of the quality of care available, and the quality of care the population receives. The main ways in which the United States differs from other developed countries are in the very high costs of its health care and the share of its population that is uninsured.

    In the light of the fact that the United States spends twice as much per person on health care as
    its peers, those who question the value for money obtained in U.S. health expenditures are on a firm
    footing. The evidence suggests that other developed countries achieve comparable quality of care while
    devoting at most two-thirds the share of their national income.

    etc

  111. JC

    More

    As many as 750,000 Britons are currently awaiting admission to NHS hospitals

  112. JC

    The U.S. health care system clearly has
    problems. Costs are rising and are distributed
    in a way that makes it difficult for some people
    to afford the care they want or need. Moreover,
    although the number of uninsured Americans
    is often exaggerated, far too many Americans
    go without health insurance. And while the
    U.S. provides the world’s highest quality health

    care, that quality is uneven, and too often
    Americans don’t receive the standard of care
    that they should. But the experiences of other
    countries with national health care systems
    show that the answer to these problems lies
    with more pro-market reform, not more government
    control.
    Of course, there is no single model for
    national health care systems in other countries.
    Indeed, the differences from country to
    country are so great that the terms “national
    health care” or “universal coverage” can be
    misleading—as if one collective model shows
    how other countries deal with health care
    and health insurance. Each country’s system
    is the product of its unique conditions, history,
    politics, and national character. Those
    systems range from the managed competition
    approach of the Netherlands and
    Switzerland to the more rigid single-payer
    systems of Great Britain, Canada and
    Norway, with many variations in between.

  113. Max Scream

    Yes, but which do you mean? The ancient Greeks or the Roman Empire?

    I think what we mean by Europe is something that begins to coalesce from the time of Charlemagne.

    The Greeks and Romans did not have a European identity.

  114. JC

    So in summary, we can conclude that the US insurance model is basically fucked, however we can also conclude that is medical delivery system is great.

    What to do?

    Go for the market based Swiss and Singapore models that keep costs well down.

  115. Max Scream

    The Cato Institute, whether run by the Koch brothers or not, is not a reliable and objective source of information about the American health system.

    Its like dealing with evangelicals who keep pointing to their bible saying there, its there, its clearly revealed there.

  116. wreckage

    U.S. health care is not clearly superior to that received by Canadians, and that in some respects Canadian care has been shown to be of
    higher quality

    But not intensive treatments, therapies, surgeries. No, in prevention and certain types of long-term, low-intensity treatment. I know this, I acknowledged this, and JC tacitly acknowledged this.

    But why would it be worth a total overhaul of the US system because it is in some respects inferior to Canada’s, but not worth a total overhaul of Canada’s which is, implicitly, inferior in more ways to the USA?

    Climb down off your yank-bashing cultural superiority complex and go dig through the detailed numbers in the WHO. They hate the US system but still couldn’t make it look properly broken: the marked inferiority in some health areas simply cannot be reliably attributed to “The US System” and ABSOLUTELY not to the US system of health insurance.

  117. Max Scream

    This is the Australian dental care system:

    THE number of teeth people retain closely reflects their income. As their incomes fall, so do the number of teeth they are left with, the latest national figures on oral health show.
    The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare study found that concession cardholders such as pensioners had twice as many missing teeth as other people, and were more likely to experience toothache, be uncomfortable with their appearance and avoid foods because of dental problems.
    The close link between income and oral health is conveyed by details of the study of dentition in seven income groups. It shows that the number of missing teeth rises in seven steps in direct relationship to decline in household income status. Those on concession cards were more likely to have avoided or delayed visiting a dentist, to have forgone recommended treatment because of cost and to have difficulty meeting a $150 dentist’s bill.

  118. JC

    Stepford

    The only two systems… insurance systems… that are better are basically sing and Swizerland and both these have more market based models.

    Impose a like system in the US and the medical system would be absolutely supercharged as the quality of care and entrepreneurship in the US in the medical field is superb.

  119. wreckage

    The Cato Institute, whether run by the Koch brothers or not, is not a reliable and objective source of information about the American health system.

    READ IT AND CHECK THE REFERENCES. Some of them are weak but every assertion has references and citations which you, diligent debunker of Cato, can look up, find wanting, and use to demolish those evil bastards. We’ll wait here.

  120. Max Scream

    You need to move out of the narrow circle of cult literature you consult on every issue.

  121. wreckage

    The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare study found that concession cardholders such as pensioners had twice as many missing teeth as other people

    Pensioners have fewer teeth. A shocking indictment of our health so-called “care” system!

    Despite all their improved access to free and concessionary healthcare.


    http://www.dhsv.org.au/clinic-locations/community-dental-clinics/

    http://www.health.qld.gov.au/oralhealth/services/adult.asp

    http://www.seniors.gov.au/internet/seniors/publishing.nsf/Content/Dental+and+oral+health+services

  122. wreckage

    The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare study found that concession cardholders such as pensioners had twice as many missing teeth as other people

    Pensioners have fewer teeth. A shocking indictment of our health so-called “care” system!

    Despite all their improved access to free and concessionary healthcare.

    Improved reply with links is in moderation, showing improved access to free and concessionary health care.

  123. wreckage

    You need to move out of the narrow circle of cult literature you consult on every issue.

    Yes, the WHO is a known hotbed of right-wing quackery, established by the Koch Brothers in the late 1980′s “golden age” of neo-liberal political ascendancy, and funded by Big Oil.

  124. Max Scream

    There are extensive academic literatures on health insurance and there are journals where these issues are more popularly discussed, but to pick up the Cato Institute for your every thought on this issue is limiting.

  125. wreckage

    Its like dealing with evangelicals who keep pointing to their bible saying there, its there, its clearly revealed there.

    Yes. My Bible frequently cites the New York Times and reviews of the medical literature. Hey, have you read the article yet? it has some big words in it. I’ll give you a smiley stamp if you make it halfway.

  126. JC

    Bobster..

    This is a fact based site. If you’re going to simply ad hom CATO without a shred of supporting evidence fuck off back to your own site where the standard of discussion is about whether Abbott is wearing a wedding band and if it means his marriage is over.

    You fucking lunatic Bob. You deranged loon.

  127. wreckage

    but to pick up the Cato Institute for your every thought on this issue is limiting.

    But I didn’t. I was referencing the WHO. You can look it up. Off you go.

  128. JC

    The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare study found that concession cardholders such as pensioners had twice as many missing teeth as other people

    Pensioners have fewer teeth. A shocking indictment of our health so-called “care” system!

    Lol. It’s like you’re in a mental vortex.

  129. wreckage

    The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare study found that concession cardholders such as pensioners had twice as many missing teeth as other people

    I’ll quote it again. I never get tired of it.

  130. Max Scream

    The vortex leads to catalepsis.

  131. JC

    The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare study found that concession cardholders such as pensioners had twice as many missing teeth as other people

    I’ll quote it again. I never get tired of it.

    Lol Neither am I. In fact I’m going to keep repeating it on every open thread.

  132. Max Scream

    The gummy sharks of catallazy are baring their teeth.

  133. JC

    No, of course it’s not baring our teeth bobster. It’s frustrating, as you’re an annoying pest of the worst kind and you basically irritate people with rank blockheadness.

    Other than that you’re fine.

    Now go back to your freaking blog and leave people alone here.

  134. Max Scream

    As Ben Eltham put it to you, if you stop being a troll – JC – sensible people might talk to you.

  135. JC

    lol, thanks for the advice, Bobster. Like I really look forward to having an intelligent conversation with either you or Ben Eltham.

    Eltham wants to talk about economics which he knows nothing about and you wanna talk about stupid shit.

    I can’t wait.

  136. JC

    As for trolling, you’re the master.

  137. The compulsory insurance systems of both Switzerland and Singapore would be horrifying to your Republican mates in the US, JC. Or are u now saying that forcing people into insurance in the US is exactly what’s needed. Obama will be glad to hear of your support..

  138. C.L.

    the picture that emerges from the information available on technical quality and related aspects of health system performance is a mixed bag, with the United States doing relatively well in some areas — such as cancer care — and less well in others — such as mortality from conditions amenable to prevention and treatment. Many Americans would be surprised by the findings from studies showing that U.S. health care is not clearly superior to that received by Canadians, and that in some respects Canadian care has been shown to be of
    higher quality….

    While evidence is not conclusive, it is clear that the argument that reform of the U.S. health system stands to endanger “the best health care quality in the world” lacks foundation. Like other countries, the United States has been found to have both
    strengths and weaknesses in terms of the quality of care available, and the quality of care the population receives. The main ways in which the United States differs from other developed countries are in the very high costs of its health care and the share of its population that is uninsured.

    In the light of the fact that the United States spends twice as much per person on health care as
    its peers, those who question the value for money obtained in U.S. health expenditures are on a firm
    footing. The evidence suggests that other developed countries achieve comparable quality of care while
    devoting at most two-thirds the share of their national income.

    Good Googling, Steve.

  139. C.L.

    American ABC outs 13 year-old witness who confirmed that Hispanic Democrat George Zimmerman was beaten by drug-dealing burglar, Trayvon Martin.™

  140. JC

    Stepford.

    The US is able to get around that by using the tax system, such as tax free medical accounts and use the money that is currently spent by firms to pay for medical insurance. Da poor can be subsidized and the well to do retired means tested

    Ryan’s plan is basically that and there would be no constitutional issues.
    It would also be market based.

    The swiss and Sing models are market responsive which is the factor that should not be lost in any system.

  141. JC

    In any event, why are you worried, Step. You’re fully covered by the rest of us taxpayers.

    So’s bobster.

  142. Fisky

    Oh dear. Perpetual Far Left candidate George Galloway is running an openly religious sectarian campaign in Bradford:

    http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Galloway-Bradford-West.jpg

    God KNOWS who is a Muslim. And he KNOWS who is not. Instinctively, so do you. Let me point out to all the Muslim brothers and sisters what I stand for:

    I, George Galloway, do not drink alcohol and never have. Ask yourself if you believe the other candidate in this election can say that truthfully.

    I, George Galloway, have fought for the Muslims at home and abroad, all my life. And paid a price for it. I believe the other candidate in this election cannot say so truthfully.

    Meanwhile, his ally Ken Livingstone has called on people not to complain about Hamas rockets falling on Israel.

    The British Far Left are just despicable people.

  143. Oh come on

    Crap Stream is a troll. A particularly shitty one, at that. Now, there’s an easy way to deal with trolls:

    DON’T FEED THEM

    I know it was amusing in a deranged kind of way when it first appeared on the Cat, but now it’s just an irritating distraction with nothing of any value to add.

    If you ignore it, it will go away.

  144. As Ben Eltham put it to you, if you stop being a troll – JC – sensible people might talk to you.

    Max not your smartest line as you are suggesting you are not sensible.

  145. Gab

    The Pentagon forced an Army post in Afghanistan to remove a cross on its worship tent in December. It was offensive to liberal atheists.

    of course.

  146. Gab

    No kidding. This is a Congresswoman. Look! WTF!

    Someone told her it was fancy dress for the hearing.

  147. Peter Patton

    The idea to conquer Palestine and dispossess its people of legal ownership of their own property and drive them into exile was an idea hatched and executed by Europeans.

    I wouldn’t exactly call the Babylonians, Assyrians, and Persians ‘Europeans’. Remember, imperialism and racism and creations of the Orientals.

  148. Peter Patton

    With racism primarily a Hundu invention. Thanks curry munchers.

  149. Abu Chowdah

    Bullshit. I never use the term “white trash”, and Retardo’s comment would have been appalling if he had made his comment about “white trash”.

    You are just making shit up.

    No you are lying.

    Hhahahahahahahahah! Get it, Tillman?

  150. Abu Chowdah

    Jokes aside, you are transparently looking to accuse him of racism where none exists.

    In other words, you are playing the “Left bower”, and that, dear boy, is a dog act. Lift your game, China.

  151. Gab

    The Mad Hatter’s Greens Party:

    Earthian sceptic. Jon Faine ABC Radio 774 Melbourne, on Wednesday:

    FAINE: I’ve just seen the Green Oration . . . I think your leader, senator Bob Brown, has delivered. . . . I thought his website must have been hacked as I read it. He says that first of all, why aren’t the intergalactic phones ringing, why isn’t life out there in the universe contacting us? Let Australia take the lead in peacefully establishing a global parliament where everyone in the world has an equal vote for a global parliament and I plunk for democracy. I’m not quite sure what he means. I thought his website had been hacked. This is just crazy stuff, isn’t it?

    Christine Milne: No, it’s not and you have to hear the context . . .

    Faine: And he thinks that there are people on other planets who have brought about their own downfall through environmental excess. Does he really believe in extraterrestrials?

    Milne: What he was saying was we’ve got a fantastic universe, we have no way of knowing whether there ever has been intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.

    Faine: Is there intelligent life in the Greens? I have to ask after reading this speech, Senator.

    Milne: Well, just let me finish and what he was postulating is . . .

    Faine: He says: “Fellow Earthians, never before has the universe unfolded such a flower such as our collective human intelligence, nor has such a one and only brilliance in the universe stood at the brink of extinction as far as we know.” I thought his website must have been hacked.

    Milne: No, it’s actually a celebration of life on Earth and collective human intelligence.

    Faine: Or has Bob Brown lost it completely?

    Milne: No, not at all. It was a very inspiring speech . . .

    If only Brown had mentioned the CIA…

  152. Peter Patton

    This study bases its conclusions on such
    highly subjective measures as “fairness” and
    criteria that are not strictly related to a country’s
    health care system, such as “tobacco control.”
    For example, the WHO report penalizes
    the United States for not having a sufficiently
    progressive tax system, not providing all citizens
    with health insurance, and having a general
    paucity of social welfare programs.

    A lot of this crap goes on in organizations like WHO, which a lot of folks have every right to expect they can trust the research; hence my outrage at Elizabeth Warren. I’m no medico, lawyer, or economagician, but I have enough training to breeze through Warren’s published paper, which I eventually did. But why should I – or any of us – be obliged to go back to the source every time? Even the OECD, and even many non-government outfits throw in garbage like “fairness”, or when they are assessing university “how international the school is”.

    That famous Politics Quiz everyone takes to see which quadrant you fall into (I’m always with Ghandi, whom I have no time for at all) has a question like

    Should it be OK EVER for people to access better health care if they can afford it (capitals added)

    I – largely – support the Australia system. And I accept the rationing methods; largely because I know I – or anyone – can access less/otherwise-rationed services/treatments through either private insurance or plastic. If someone wants to access treatment/services through another system, I’m with them all the way. What a stupid question to even ask. It’s like those vile leftists who insists we should not allow third world skilled folks to be allowed to emigrate to Australia, as they should stay in their sewers and help their own people!

  153. Poetry Slam: @VodkaPundit vs. Daily Kos.

    I wondered whether the Kos poem was written by one of Cat’s resident Leftoids; this stanza especially:

    It shouldn’t matter that your are empty-handed,
    You have the right to be healthy.
    You should not be left sick and stranded,
    And only get care if you’re wealthy.

    Of course, I’m partial to Green’s rebuttal, especially the bit where it goes,

    Get your hand off my wallet
    You filthy weeping hippie

    Also the bit where it goes,

    Get your hand off my wallet
    You filthy weeping hippie

    And finally, the bit where it goes,

    Get your hand off my wallet
    You filthy weeping hippie

    Y’know what I’m sayin’?

  154. Gab

    The comedian Roseanne Barr last night tweeted the home address of George Zimmerman’s parents to her 110,000-plus Twitter followers, only to delete the posting after “not fully understanding that it was private not public.”

    What a stupid and vindictive moron and then to cover her actions with a lie.

  155. Peter Patton

    Max

    I think what we mean by Europe is something that begins to coalesce from the time of Charlemagne.

    The Greeks and Romans did not have a European identity.

    Indeed, Europe actually has a birth day – December 25, 800 AD; the day Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne the Roman Emperor. I’d similarly argue that Europe basically ended in 2007, when the EU decided against mentioning of religion, even Xanity, in the Lisbon Treaty (which amended the EU Constitution in other ways).

  156. Oh come on

    Was it the same wrong address that Spike Lee tweeted? Y’know, the address of an elderly couple – the wife who has a Zimmerman son because her former husband is a Zimmerman, but has no relation to George Zimmerman? That poor innocent couple who’ve had to go into hiding?

  157. Oh come on

    (no but she’s still a dopey scrunt. Seriously, how the hell did that washed up old hag get 110,000 followers?)

  158. Rabz

    roseanne barr’s still alive?

  159. Oh come on

    Snap, Rabz! I thought she accidentally inhaled one of her chins in her sleep and asphyxiated.

  160. Seriously, how the hell did that washed up old hag get 110,000 followers?

    Sockington the Cat has 1,441,173 followers.

    There’s no accounting for tastes.

  161. Gab

    Good news:

    <blockquote>Executives at CNN must be in shock at the catatrophic implosion of their morning lineup, as Starting Point With Soledad O’Brien (7-9 a.m. weekdays) recorded the cable network’s lowest ratings for that time slot in more than a decade. Fewer than 100,000 adults 25-54 tuned in to O’Brien’s program on an average day, according to the latest quarterly Nielsen numbers.

    Inside Cable News called the CNN morning numbers “brutal,” and “an epic ratings collapse,” further adding: “CNN cannot continue to hemorrhage viewers like this much longer without taking drastic corrective action.”

    O’Brien inspired widespread mockery from conservatives earlier this month when she embarrassed herself in an attempt to argue with Breitbart.com editor Joel Pollak, whose site exposed President Obama’s ties to the late Professor Derrick Bell, an academic radical notorious for promoting so-called ”critical race theory.”

    Gotta love Karma.

  162. Gab

    This is funny.

    GS Elevator Gossip ‏ @GSElevator

    Suit#1 (on cell phone): Yes… Yes… I know… Yes… Ok, you too… Bye. [Hangs up]. Jesus Christ, I hope my next wife doesn’t do this.

  163. Fewer than 100,000 adults 25-54 tuned in to O’Brien’s program on an average day, according to the latest quarterly Nielsen numbers.

    As Jim Treacher pointed out, “Every day, @Soledad_OBrien‘s ratings are worse than the last. That means every time you see her, it’s the worst day of her life.”

  164. I was curious as to how the “Obamacare” scheme works regarding the contentious “it’s the government forcing people to buy insurance” horror that had rightwingnuts praying in front of the Supreme Court. This site explains (amongst other things):

    What happens if I don’t get coverage?

    Essentially what the law states is that you either show that you have the minimum coverage from a qualified plan or you pay an annual tax penalty. New IRC code § 5000A states the penalty as equal to or greater of the following:

    2.5% of the amount by which the taxpayer’s household income for the tax year exceeds the threshold amount of income required for income tax return filing under section 6012(a) OR
    $695 per uninsured adult in the household.

    This penalty will be phased in from 2014 through 2016. In 2014, the penalty will only be 1% or $95 per uninsured adult. In 2015, it will be 2% or $325 per uninsured adult. In 2016, it will be the full penalty. If you are low income and can show hardship, then you may be exempt per IRS rules.

    One very interesting part of the new IRC code § 5000A is that the act specifies that liens and seizures are not authorized to enforce this penalty and non compliance will not be subject to criminal penalties. That’s right, the IRS can’t enforce the non-payment of this penalty as the law is currently written. It will apparently be considered a subordinated tax. It may be subject to civil penalties or enforcement similar to unsecured debt. Check with a qualified legal professional for more information on noncompliance.

    So this is what causes an argument in the US along the lines “well, if the government can force people to buy health insurance, why can’t it force people to buy anything”? A system very similar to ours?

    It is absurd that they should be having that debate at all, and I now understand entirely why most commentators seemed to think the Supreme Court would uphold it, until the hearing.

    The US Right is full of pathetic arguments and positions at the moment.

  165. Rabz

    CNN fauxfacts cannot continue to hemorrhage viewers readers like this much longer without taking drastic corrective action.”

    FFS, who gives a rodent’s backsayeedah?!?!?

  166. So this is what causes an argument in the US along the lines “well, if the government can force people to buy health insurance, why can’t it force people to buy anything”? A system very similar to ours?

    Steve you ignorant slut.

    America is not Australia; Australia is not America.

    Americans are not Australians; Australians are not Americans.

    Australians should no more damn Americans as teh stoopid! for not wanting to adopt their healthcare system than Americans should damn Australians as teh stoopid! for not wanting to adopt their healthcare system.

    Get back in your box you neo-imperialist chucklehead.

  167. Oh come on

    That’s great, Steve, thanks for your input.

  168. Oh come on

    sdog: you mean you actually read his comment?

  169. Gab

    In a country that is debating its profile (Islamic or Arabic), the preachers find all too fertile soil in the absence of a response from the state, also urged by the leader of Ennahdha, Rashid Ghannouchi. Too many threats receive no response from the institutions: on Sunday a sheikh called Tunisians prepare to kill the Jews and on the same occasion a preacher wished the death (he later explained that he was speaking in political terms) of former premier Beji Caid Essebsi. And the air is still filled with the insane propositions of an Egyptian Wahhabi preacher, Wagdi Ghoneim, who came to Tunisia to say, before frenzied crowds, that female genital mutilation is not only imposed by the Koran, but are longed for because they are cosmetic surgery operations.

    Hey, isn’t Wagdi Ghoneim the top US muslim cleric that fled the US in December 2004 rather than be deported? Why, yes, it is.

    Tunisia is about to “update” its constitution amid riots supporting the inclusion of sharia law.

  170. JamesK

    I was curious as to how the “Obamacare” scheme…

    Drones aren’t renowned for their curiosity liar-steve™.

    I’m jest sayin’….

  171. sdog: you mean you actually read his comment?

    What can I say. I needed a purgative.

  172. Gab

    Paging CL and Dover:

    Once she was the curvy queen of calorie-packed puds… but now ­there’s a lot less of Nigella Lawson to pour into her trademark black dresses.

    In six months she’s slimmed down from a buxom Size 18 to a svelte Size 12, rolling away an astonishing three stone.

    She still looks terrific.

  173. dover_beach

    It is absurd that they should be having that debate at all, and I now understand entirely why most commentators seemed to think the Supreme Court would uphold it, until the hearing.

    This says it all. Because certain numbnuts thought such a law was “no biggie”, they also thought that it must be constitutional without ever bothering to peruse the Constitution. After oral arguments, they’ve found that their initial impression, that the law was “no biggie”, was probably without foundation. The lesson will not be learnt and they will continue to gratuitously pass on their impressions.

  174. dover_beach

    She still has the hourglass figure, Gab. The One remains in my affections.

  175. Peter Patton

    Gab

    Last time I saw Nigella, she looked like she was interviewing – or should have been – for The Biggest Loser, so let’s hope the story is true. Nigella has for a while been testament to the truism, ‘studio lighting is your friend’. ;

  176. Gab

    Peter, even at size 18 I thought she looked sexy. But good on her for getting rid of the excess weight. I hope she doesn’t lose any more weight though.

  177. Oh come on

    She’s a very sultry lady.

  178. Peter Patton

    Gab

    She never struck me as naturally/destined-to-be fat. I imagine a lot of it was just laziness/lifestyle/diet, so it would have been pretty easy for her to lose the flab with a little bit of focus.

  179. This says it all. Because certain numbnuts thought such a law was “no biggie”, they also thought that it must be constitutional without ever bothering to peruse the Constitution.

    Yeah, yeah, I’m sure they never gave it a thought:

    Legal consensus over the healthcare law has changed in the wake of Vinson’s decision and a prior ruling by a federal court in Virginia that found the individual mandate unconstitutional.

    Previously, many constitutional scholars expected the Supreme Court would vote by a comfortable margin to uphold the law, but now the consensus is it will be a 5-4 decision.

    “There’s been a big change in the conventional wisdom,” said Randy Barnett, the Carmack Waterhouse professor of legal theory at the Georgetown University Law Center. “The temperature of law professors has changed considerably.”

    Barnett described Vinson’s decision as “extremely deep in its discussion of principles and constitutional doctrine.”

    Democratic lawmakers, however, argue that federal district courts have ruled as expected, noting that two Democratic-appointed judges have upheld the law while two Republican appointees have ruled against it.

    “We’re now two and two,” said Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.). “Obviously, it’s going to the Supreme Court.”

    Leahy said he believes the law is constitutional and a decision striking it down would be surprising, just as the Supreme Court’s decision to allow corporations to spend unlimited amounts to influence elections, which it made last year in Citizens United v. FEC, was.

  180. Gab

    The Age defends Abbott:

    The Age even publishes an opinion piece by Wendy Squires defending Abbott from the few critics, particularly leftoids:

    … lighten up. I am a proud feminist but I am also a deeply flawed human being who says the wrong things and acts the wrong way… My stance on equal rights or feminism shouldn’t preclude me from putting my foot in my mouth, cracking lame jokes or noticing an ample rear in a badly cut jacket when I see it.

    Just for laughs.

  181. A rather excellent article here about the differences between the Ryan tax credit plan, and the Obama individual mandate.

    It argues they are economically the same effect, and highlights the way the Right is full of hypocrisy on the subject and just playing games:

    The constitutional argument over Obamacare is a dispute over a technicality. We agree that it’s constitutional for the government to intervene far more aggressively in the market. We agree that it’s constitutional for it to intervene in an almost identical, albeit slightly more roundabout, manner. We’re just not sure if the government needs to call the individual mandate a “tax” rather than “a penalty,” or perhaps structure it as a tax credit. As Pauly puts it, “This seems to me to be angelic pinhead density arguments about whether it’s a payment to do something or not to do something.”

    Of course, this battle isn’t really about the constitutionality of the individual mandate. Members of the Republican Party didn’t express concerns that the individual mandate might be an unconstitutional assault on liberty when they devised the idea in the late 1980s, or when they wielded it against the Clinton White House in the 1990s, or when it was passed it into law in Massachusetts in the mid-2000s. Only after the mandate became the centerpiece of the Democrats’ health-care bill did its constitutionality suddenly become an issue.

    The real fight is over whether the Affordable Care Act should exist at all. Republicans lost that battle in Congress, where they lacked a majority in 2010. Now they hope to win it in the Supreme Court, where they hold a one-vote advantage. The argument against the individual mandate is a pretext to overturn Obamacare. But it’s a pretext that could set a very peculiar precedent.

    If the mandate falls, future politicians, who will still need to fix the health-care system and address the free-rider problem, will be left with the option to move toward a single payer system or offer incredibly large, expensive tax credits in order to persuade people to do things they don’t otherwise want to do. That is to say, in the name of liberty, Republicans and their allies on the Supreme Court will have guaranteed a future with much more government intrusion in the health-care marketplace.

  182. JamesK

    NRO: The Myth of Cuban Health Care
    Michael Moore gives it a powerful boost

    The Left has always had a deep psychological need to believe in the myth of Cuban health care. On that island, as everywhere else, Communism has turned out to be a disaster: economic, physical, and moral. Not only have persecution, torture, and murder been routine, there is nothing material to show for it. The Leninist rationalization was, “You have to break some eggs to make an omelet.” Orwell memorably replied, “Where’s the omelet?” There is never an omelet.

    But Castro’s apologists have tried to create one. Their hopes rest on three lies, principally: that Castro cares for the sick; that he is responsible for almost universal literacy; and that he has been a boon to blacks. Castroite propaganda has been extraordinarily effective, reaching even to people who should know better. Among the most disgraceful words ever uttered by a secretary of state were uttered by Colin Powell in 2001, when he said, “He’s done some good things for his people.” The “he,” of course, was Cuba’s dictator.

    It was hard to know which was worse: the “his people,” which is certainly how Castro thinks of Cubans. Or the imagined omelet, the “good things.”

    The myth of Cuban health care has been debunked in article after article, for the last several decades. (Remember that Castro took power in 1959.) …..

    To be sure, there is excellent health care on Cuba — just not for ordinary Cubans. Dr. Jaime Suchlicki of the University of Miami’s Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies explains that there is not just one system, or even two: There are three. The first is for foreigners who come to Cuba specifically for medical care. This is known as “medical tourism.” The tourists pay in hard currency, which provides oxygen to the regime. And the facilities in which they are treated are First World: clean, well supplied, state-of-the-art.

    The foreigners-only facilities do a big business in what you might call vanity treatments: Botox, liposuction, and breast implants. Remember, too, that there are many separate, or segregated, facilities on Cuba. People speak of “tourism apartheid.” For example, there are separate hotels, separate beaches, separate restaurants — separate everything. As you can well imagine, this causes widespread resentment in the general population.

    The second health-care system is for Cuban elites — the Party, the military, official artists and writers, and so on. In the Soviet Union, these people were called the “nomenklatura.” And their system, like the one for medical tourists, is top-notch.

    Then there is the real Cuban system, the one that ordinary people must use — and it is wretched. Testimony and documentation on the subject are vast. Hospitals and clinics are crumbling. Conditions are so unsanitary, patients may be better off at home, whatever home is. If they do have to go to the hospital, they must bring their own bedsheets, soap, towels, food, light bulbs — even toilet paper. And basic medications are scarce. In Sicko, even sophisticated medications are plentiful and cheap. In the real Cuba, finding an aspirin can be a chore. And an antibiotic will fetch a fortune on the black market.

    A nurse spoke to Isabel Vincent of Canada’s National Post. “We have nothing,” said the nurse. “I haven’t seen aspirin in a Cuban store here for more than a year. If you have any pills in your purse, I’ll take them. Even if they have passed their expiry date.”

    The equipment that doctors have to work with is either antiquated or nonexistent.

  183. Old story, JamesK, you bore. I don’t notice Democrats spending a lot of time running around saying the US system needs to be just like Cuba’s.

  184. Token

    Unions prove government rhetoric on the job destroying carbon tax are just lies:

    Union backers of carbon tax seek pay hikes to cushion the blow

    1. The carbon tax will cost everyone more
    2. The government compensation package will not cover all costs and leave working families worse off

    The 39,000-strong Together union will factor in the cost of the carbon tax during enterprise bargaining negotiations with the Queensland government this year. Union secretary Alex Scott said the federal government’s $8 billion household compensation package would not offset the cost of the carbon tax for all workers from July 1.

    “They are compensating 60 per cent of people for some of it,” he said yesterday. “That’s far from full compensation. We want to make sure we don’t go backwards in terms of cost of living.”

    So when will the AWU’s Paul Howes hand over the keys to his house?

  185. Oh come on

    Steve calling other people bores is rather like Tillman demanding apologies.

  186. JamesK

    A rather excellent article here about ……

    LOL!

    By….. Ezra Klein Wa-Po’s kid loon leftist blogger.

    Says – get this – a tax credit is the same as forcing uninsured to buy insurance under pain of financial penalty or jail.

    Apart from the patent stupidity of that argument a tax credit has the added advantage over a mandate of not being unconstitutional.

  187. Token

    The comedian Roseanne Barr last night tweeted the home address of George Zimmerman’s parents to her 110,000-plus Twitter followers, only to delete the posting after “not fully understanding that it was private not public.”

    Why are the family suffering?

    Whether George is guilty, why do Lefties believe it is ok to attack his family?

  188. or jail

    Where did you get that from? They have debtors prisons in the US still, do they?

  189. Token

    The constitutional argument over Obamacare is a dispute over a technicality.

    In that sentence the article is proven to be based upon a logical fallacy.

    If something is unconstitutional, it is in breach of the constitution. Black and white.

  190. JamesK

    Is fvckit and perennial liar stevefb suggesting debtors can’t be sent to prison especially if the judge believes that the debtor ‘won’t pay’ rather than ‘can’t pay’ his debts (that is, deliberately refused to pay, or have chosen to spend money on other things not truly needed)?

    If so, he is pathetically stupid in addition to being a nasty leftist liar.

  191. Token: the fact that the judges have lined up pretty much along ideological lines shows that it is indeed a “technicality” in the sense that there are easily constructed arguments that can go either way.

    It’s basically dumb to say constitutionality is “black and white” in such cases.

  192. Gab

    Then there is the real Cuban system, the one that ordinary people must use — and it is wretched.

    And it’s no different in China. While staying at Tongli Lake I had to be hospitalised. Naturally I wasn’t expecting western standards in terms of hospital conditions. I was very surprised though to be placed into a private room that looked more like a five star hotel room.

    Of course when I was up and about and wandered through the hospital I got to see what the locals were subjected to. The corridors were crowded with sick people waiting attention; the stench of urine was overbearing; the visuals of people vomiting and coughing up blood were unbelievable. I had four doctors attend to me, but medicos attending to the locals were few and far between.

    This was a large hospital. My local colleagues informed me it’s no different elsewhere.

  193. Les Majesty

    Jokes aside, you are transparently looking to accuse him of racism where none exists.

    In other words, you are playing the “Left bower”, and that, dear boy, is a dog act. Lift your game, China.

    No, I accused Retardo of being a pompous chickenshit stamp duty lawyer, which he is.

    I found his statement that the uninsured are only “poor black trash” appalling. Take the word “black” out, and it’s still an appalling statement, albeit with less overtly racist overtones.

    Retardo is a disgusting person, whether he is racist or not.

  194. Oh come on

    Les, you’re in danger of becoming as boring as SoB. Please end your crusade of self-righteousness and go back to trolling.

  195. dover_beach

    Yeah, yeah, I’m sure they never gave it a thought:

    Your quotation bears my remark out. To wit, they never thought deeply about its constitutionality; that was something Vinson had to do for me. Poor dears.

  196. I see JamesK is partially (but only partially) right:

    Borrowers who can’t or don’t pay their debts can be sent to jail in more than one-third of states, the Wall Street Journal reports. Judges may issue a warrant when a borrower either misses court ordered payments or doesn’t show up in court after being sued for payments on outstanding debt. Though there are no national statistics on the practice of jailing debtors, a WSJ analysis found that judges have issued more than 5,000 debt-related warrants since the beginning of 2010.

    Does the IRS do this? One has ones doubts.

  197. dover_beach

    LOL: ….had to do for them.

  198. Gab

    LOL Mike Quigley goes for the Sgt. Shcultz defense:

    National Broadband Network boss Mike Quigley reassures the public over suggestions that the project’s roll out will favour Labor seats:

    “Our planners wouldn’t know an electoral boundary if they fell over one,” he said.

    Our $36 billion is in safe hands.

    Tim Blair

  199. Token

    Token: the fact that the judges have lined up pretty much along ideological lines shows that it is indeed a “technicality” in the sense that there are easily constructed arguments that can go either way.

    It’s basically dumb to say constitutionality is “black and white” in such cases.

    This statement is “basically dumb”.

    Is a ruling by the SCOTUS or any other court law when it is made or is it technically valid only for those who agree with the ideology of the court?

  200. Token

    According to your poor logic SOB Plessy v Ferguson was a ruling based upon a “technicality’ due to the “ideology” of the court in 1896.

    Tell that to the millions of non-whites that lived with the consequences of the decision.

    i.e. they had to suffer the effects of segregation which Democrat state governments where able to implement with the cover of this “technicality”

  201. JamesK

    It’s basically dumb to say constitutionality is “black and white” in such cases.

    The enumerated powers are a list of items found in Article I, section 8 of the US Constitution that set forth the authoritative capacity of the United States Congress.

    In summary, Congress may exercise the powers that the Constitution grants it, subject to explicit restrictions in the Bill of Rights and other protections in the Constitutional text.

    The 10th Amendment states that “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

    Obummercare relies on this enumerated power:

    Article I, Section 8, Clause 3:(Commerce Clause)

    [The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes

    Now liar-steve™, in black and white – or grey – point out where the above cited clause allows Congress penalise a citizen for not purchasing health insurance.

    It’s only in the imagination of thug leftists like Obummer, Pelosi et al.

    And if you believe it does include Obummercare then why did the Framers bother to ‘enumerate’ the powers reserving all else to the States respectively, or to the people?

    Because if the Commerce Clause allows Obummercare ‘enumerating’ the powers of Fededral Congess was a waste of time.

  202. Oh come on

    the fact that the judges have lined up pretty much along ideological lines

    This is misleading, Steve. The schism between the liberal and conservative Justices is NOT over whether the Act (or parts of the Act) are unconstitutional. It seems that most – if not all – acknowledge the individual mandate sections of the bill are coercive towards the states and thus unconstitutional. The disagreement seems to be over whether the Act should be discarded in its entirety (which the conservatives favour) or whether the offending parts be chopped out (the liberal position). I think it was Justice Ginsberg who said the case should be a salvage, not a wreckage, job.

  203. Token

    Article I, Section 8, Clause 3:(Commerce Clause)

    Thanks JamesK, that is what I was looking for.

    The Democrats and statists are scared about the likely ruling in this case.

    This over-reach by the Obama is likely going to lead to the controls being placed on the ability of the leviathan to continue to grow and consume.

  204. Peter Patton

    The SCOTUS is even more than merely ideological. It is nakedly political, by design even. Candidates are subjected to intense and televised grillings about every nook and cranny of their beliefs: whether religious, political, legal, or whatever; with all past judicial decisions, lectures, articles open for public examination. That is how it should be. Less so than the Australian Constitution, the US Constitution is a poliitical document, formed by revolution, and political jockeying. That document then lays out the legal terrain. When it comes to the federal Constitution, the political precedes the legal. And that’s how it should be in a democracy, especially a federal democracy.

  205. JamesK

    I see JamesK is partially (but only partially) right:

    I wonder if liar-steve™ can point to which ‘part’ of my comment is the part that’s wrong?

  206. OCO: your claim is not consistent with commentary I have seen on the case.

    If you could back it up with a link I would reconsider.

  207. Oh come on

    Read or listen to the court proceedings, Steve.

  208. JamesK

    @ Peter Paatton

    The US Constitution and Bill of Rights are difficult-to-change laws that protect the people from the government and force the government to be answerable to the people.

    Leftists hate it.

    A Bills of Right here or Canada ala Geoffrey Robertson are difficult-to-change laws that protect an unelected few powerful from being answerable full stop.

    Leftists love it.

  209. I don’t have time to do that. If your point is clearly supported, and not just your idiosyncratic interpretation of what you have read, I expect it has been repeated somewhere in the commentariate other than by you.

  210. Gab
    I see JamesK is partially (but only partially) right:

    I wonder if liar-steve™ can point to which ‘part’ of my comment is the part that’s wrong?

    He probably doesn’t have the time to do that, James.

  211. Oh come on

    Oops, here ya go, Steve. From the LA Times, no less:

    The court’s conservatives sounded as though they had determined for themselves that the 2,700-page measure must be declared unconstitutional.

    “One way or another, Congress will have to revisit it in toto,” said Justice Antonin Scalia.

    Agreeing, Justice Anthony Kennedy said it would be an “extreme proposition” to allow the various insurance regulations to stand after the mandate was struck down.

    Meanwhile, the court’s liberal justices argued for restraint. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the court should do a “salvage job,” not undertake a “wrecking operation.” But she looked to be out-voted.

  212. Oh come on

    Well, I’m sorry you don’t have time to educate yourself from the source, and are instead parroting talking points. Hopefully the article above falls beneath maximum SoB idiosyncrasy tolerances.

  213. I have run out of time: your quote does not support your claim, OCO. Ginsburg might just be looking at the next level of what the court does if 5/4 it does deem the individual mandate unconstitutional.

  214. Token

    No wonder Winsor & Oakeshott have voted 6 times to block parliamentary motions against Craig Thomson.

    Ray Hadley has been chasing Oakeshott over moneys donated by business people in Lyne which should have gone into a charitable trust. It seems Oakeshott has mislead people on this matter.

    I’ve been trying unsuccessfully to get Rob Oakeshott to confirm details of his Mid-North Coast Youth Trust for three weeks.

    In the absence of help from the member for Lyne, I have established that there doesn’t appear to be a trust, despite his announcement in 2003 that he would tip in about $20,000 a year if elected to Parliament. Locals on the mid-north coast were led believe that a $7,100 donation from a local publican kick-started the “trust”, but it appears Mr Oakeshott has used it as a political donation and has recorded it as such.

  215. Oh come on

    OK, I’ll let you cling to your rock of idiotic denial, despite the fact what I wrote was clearly supported in the article. Maybe you should read the whole thing and you’ll see your speculation of what Ginsburg “might just” be doing is wrong.

  216. Token

    I don’t have time to do that. If your point is clearly supported, and not just your idiosyncratic interpretation of what you have read..

    Translation from Liar-SoB speech:

    “I am too much of a lightweight to understand the technical mumbo-jumbo you guys are spouting. Your big words are making my brain hurty.

    I only chose to take a position to back Obama because ideologically I am a very leftwing green and I believe that it is best to blindly back every action of his administration. As I have no logical basis to back my claims I am now reverting to Ad Hom attacks…”

  217. Oh come on

    Then he asks for some evidence to back up what I posted. He gets it. Then he pretends the article doesn’t support what I wrote, when it very explicitly does, and in fact it even mentions that the Obama administration would be willing to accept that “some of the insurance reforms should fall if the mandate were struck down.”

    But no, Steve still wants to cling to his idiotic rock of denial. Whatevs.

  218. Peter Patton

    James

    That’s dead right. Look I don’t agree with your view of universal health care – at least not your view on how it is done in Australia – but those differences are fought out in the political sphere. I think your view is rational and not at all inconsistent with Australian ‘values’ or well-respected economic and philosophical ways of thought. To the extent you don’t change my mind, we fight in the political sphere.

    And given that our different views include different views on the role of the state, etc. we can expect to differ on how significant sections of the Constitution should be read. It would seem only consistent that we would also have the opportunity to make that part of our political fight also. That is why I prefer the US way of appointing SC judges than the Australian way. The downside of that though is that we have to suck it up on those occasions when we lose the political fight, just as we are entitled to cheer when we win. ;)

  219. Peter Patton

    One reasonable analogy with the current SCOTUS case is the HCA rejection of Gillard’s ‘Malaysian Solution’. The HCA judges did not knock it down because of any ideology/political persuasion, they did so because the bloody legislation the policy relied on did not authorise the executive to act that way. Legislation mind you, that Gillard and most of her colleagues had debated and voted on!

  220. JamesK

    David French, Lawyer, Corner NRO

    It turns out that the argument for Obamacare rests on a functionally unlimited view of federal power — that the Commerce Clause, Necessary and Proper Clause, and New Deal precedent have essentially combined to create a form of de facto police power for the federal government.

    But if you instead place federal power within the context of enumerated powers, then Verrilli’s argument becomes exponentially more difficult.

  221. So this is what causes an argument in the US along the lines “well, if the government can force people to buy health insurance, why can’t it force people to buy anything”? A system very similar to ours?

    Steve
    The aspect you mentioned about a tax penalty is our system if you earn over a certain level you have to buy insurance or pay more tax they probably copied it off us that is if Romney didn’t first or did we copy it off him. It is stupid and it only makes the problem worse in the US not fix it but so has everying already tried. These lame arguements about if you happen to live in this location and be this class of person you will get good healthcare is just a stupid one and in the next minute will be arguing about cost effectiveness of the dole or something. US health system is a very bad system on a cost effectiveness basis and Obamacare will make it worse so get over it all of you. Just as our medicare levy is a very bad system but the rest of our healthcare system is ok. Lets try to kill the very bad part of our system before we worry about the US.

  222. .

    Token: the fact that the judges have lined up pretty much along ideological lines shows that it is indeed a “technicality” in the sense that there are easily constructed arguments that can go either way.

    It’s basically dumb to say constitutionality is “black and white” in such cases.

    What rubbish Steve. Even the liberal justices believe there is an element of unconstitutionality. Constitutional cases are ALL ABOUT technicalities.

    Are you serious or trolling?

  223. JC

    I found his statement that the uninsured are only “poor black trash” appalling. Take the word “black” out, and it’s still an appalling statement, albeit with less overtly racist overtones.

    Retardo is a disgusting person, whether he is racist or not.

    Lester, your calling out though seems selective. How many times did Wodger for instance call me a wog, dago? In fact how many times have leftwingers used those terms in reference to me and there’s been silence in calling out the leftwing swine abusing me like this?

    I’m the victim here Lester and not once have you come out to defend me.

  224. I found his statement that the uninsured are only “poor black trash” appalling. Take the word “black” out, and it’s still an appalling statement, albeit with less overtly racist overtones.

    Nothing wrong with that if you take the black out it is no different to refering to dole bludgers here and they do exist. It just might not be politically correct that is all.

  225. A commentator writing for the Guardian says:

    The four liberal justices seem intent on preserving the law even without an individual mandate – although, as we gleaned yesterday, they’re also intent on preserving the individual mandate.

    Which is not consistent with OCO’s take.

  226. Gab

    Steve – you’re back! You’ve found the time. How about answering James?

  227. Fleeced

    Really, Mr President?

    Maybe he’s barking at him, not for him? Dogs… they always know!

  228. JamesK

    Network identified as dearest in the world

    LABOR’S $36 billion National Broadband Network has been branded the most expensive rollout of its kind in the world, according to new research by the Economist Intelligence Unit…

    It is the second year running that The Economist magazine’s Intelligence Unit has found Australia is spending more taxpayer funds than any other country. Upon release of last year’s report, Communications Minister Stephen Conroy branded the findings as “ideological dogma”.

    The report says Australia’s NBN is most expensive in terms of government funds, cost per household, percentage of annual NBN revenue and percentage of the government’s budget.

  229. JC

    The Kenyan is in a little bit of trouble here. He just showed that he’s a partisan racist huckster like Sharpton and Jackson.

    In fact the country would be better off having either “Reverends” as the president because at least it would be more honest and out there.

    Parents of murdered British students criticise Barack Obama
    The parents of two British students murdered in Florida have criticised President Barack Obama for his lack of compassion over their son’s deaths.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9173820/Parents-of-murdered-British-students-criticise-Barack-Obama.html

  230. JamesK

    they’re also intent on preserving the individual mandate.

    That’s probably true but where’s the evidence?

    The liberal left justice’s certainly couldn’t refute any of Paul Clement’s arguments that the mandate was unconstitutional.

    Mweanwhile the conservative justices left Verrilli’s case as to why the mandate is constitutionally consistent looking like a collander.

    Day 3 was the matter of severability which liberal leftist argument is complicated by the Dem’s own admission that the mandate is core and central to the law.

    Face facts steve: ur a fvckwit.

  231. .

    $36 bn – that is obviously some kind of joke James. The NBN will cost many times that.

    Ah yes, the right wing economist. They just hate poor little piss hands Conroy.

  232. JamesK

    Yes dot the infamously vast right wing conspiracist mag ‘Thee Economist’

    I’m surprised stevefb hasn’t demanded that it be banned.

    He hasn’t; has he?

  233. Every time I see that damned dog of his I cringe at the optics of his accepting a Portuguese Water Dog… from Ted “Let The Bitch Drown” Kennedy.

  234. Rafe

    Interesting numbers on the current perception of the carbon tax and its impact.

    Not good news for the ALP or the Greens.

  235. JC

    He hasn’t; has he?

    He explicitly banned it on his blog. He will never mention it.

  236. Gab

    AUSTRALIAN taxpayers will be forced to bankroll the federal government’s own $45 million carbon tax bill next year as departmental power bills continue to soar.

    Documents obtained by The Daily Telegraph have revealed the electricity bill for the federal government for 2010/2011 was more than $450 million.

    This covered the energy costs of the majority of government departments and agencies.

    The Treasury estimated that electricity prices would increase generally by up to 10 per cent when the carbon tax kicked in from July 1 this year.

    The expected carbon tax bill next year for the government sector was estimated to total $45,655,915.

    C’mon you lot, work harder and longer. The government needs your money.

  237. JamesK

    Interesting numbers on the current perception of the carbon tax and its impact.

    Not good news for the ALP or the Greens.

    The other ‘given’ to note in that piece fron the Phage is that the poll numbers are merely reflections of incorrct perceptions.

    2/3 rds of voters who believe they will be worse off under a carbon tax are “demonstrably” incorrect – fooled by Tony Abbott’s misinformation camapign.

    Julia need only sell its merits better and correct the misinformation out there.

    Left unsaid – but clearly understood – is that practically everyone will be better off except the eeevil 1% or somesuch

  238. C.L.

    What a stupid and vindictive moron and then to cover her actions with a lie.

    What’s Gillard done now, Gab?

  239. candy

    That article ‘current perception of carbon tax’ seems to be dated 18 july 2011 but

  240. C.L.

    What happens if I don’t get coverage?

    Essentially what the law states is that you either show that you have the minimum coverage from a qualified plan or you pay an annual tax penalty. New IRC code § 5000A states the penalty as equal to or greater of the following:

    2.5% of the amount by which the taxpayer’s household income for the tax year exceeds the threshold amount of income required for income tax return filing under section 6012(a) OR
    $695 per uninsured adult in the household.

    This penalty will be phased in from 2014 through 2016. In 2014, the penalty will only be 1% or $95 per uninsured adult. In 2015, it will be 2% or $325 per uninsured adult. In 2016, it will be the full penalty. If you are low income and can show hardship, then you may be exempt per IRS rules.

    One very interesting part of the new IRC code § 5000A is that the act specifies that liens and seizures are not authorized to enforce this penalty and non compliance will not be subject to criminal penalties. That’s right, the IRS can’t enforce the non-payment of this penalty as the law is currently written. It will apparently be considered a subordinated tax. It may be subject to civil penalties or enforcement similar to unsecured debt. Check with a qualified legal professional for more information on noncompliance.

    Good blockquote, Steve.

    Steve “Blocker” Roach.

  241. Face facts steve: ur a fvckwit.

    Face facts, James: you’re the last doctor any sane person who reads your aggro ramblings here would want to see.

  242. C.L.

    Nigella still looks good.

    Nice hippal definition!

    ——————-

    Oh yeah…

    Let’s go to the tape:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtS2Ikk7A9I

  243. JC

    Face facts, James: you’re the last doctor any sane person who reads your aggro ramblings here would want to see.

    Stop personalizing things stepford. I’m sure that just because you would be the only person James would place under permanent chemically induced coma he would treat everyone else professionally without favor or disfavor.

    And who would blame him.

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