George Pell is a much hated man by progressives and the anti-religious brigade. This week he appeared on Q&A debating Richard Dawkins. A bit of a storm has arisen. Here is how the SMH describe what was said.
CARDINAL George Pell has moved to clarify demeaning remarks he made about Jews on TV, calling them intellectually lesser than the Egyptians, including Jesus Christ.
…
He said he was trying to ”make a point about the unique place of the Jewish people in human history as the first to receive the revelation of the one true God while I was being regularly interrupted and distracted by the chairman” (Tony Jones).
In a hole during the debate, Cardinal Pell kept digging, saying ”the poor, the little Jewish people, they were originally shepherds” stuck between the great powers of their time such as the Egyptians and Babylonians, and that this reflected their intellectual development.
Okay. Sounds bad. This is what the transcript reflects.
GEORGE PELL: … Normally you go to a busy person because you know they’ll do it and so for some extraordinary reason God chose the Jews. They weren’t intellectually the equal of either the Egyptians or the…
TONY JONES: Intellectually?
GEORGE PELL: Intellectually, morally…
TONY JONES: How can you know intellectually?
GEORGE PELL: Because you see the fruits of their civilisation. Egypt was the great power for thousands of years before Christianity. Persia was a great power, Caldia. The poor – the little Jewish people, they were originally shepherds. They were stuck. They’re still stuck between these great powers.
TONY JONES: But that’s not a reflection of your intellectual capacity, is it, whether or not you’re a shepherd?
GEORGE PELL: Well, no it’s not but it is a recognition it is a reflection of your intellectual development, be it like many, many people are very, very clever and not highly intellectual but my point is…
TONY JONES: I’m sorry, can I just interrupt? Are you including Jesus in that, who was obviously Jewish and was of that community?
GEORGE PELL: Exactly.
TONY JONES: So intellectually not up to it?
GEORGE PELL: Well, that’s a nice try, Tony. The people, in terms of sophistication, the psalms are remarkable in terms of their buildings and that sort of thing. They don’t compare with the great powers. But Jesus came not as a philosopher to the elite. He came to the poor and the battlers and for some reason he choose a very difficult but actually they are now an intellectually elite because over the centuries they have been pushed out of every other form of work. They’re a – I mean Jesus, I think, is the greatest the son of God but, leaving that aside, the greatest man that ever live so I’ve got a great admiration for the Jews but we don’t need to exaggerate their contribution in their early days.
If you’re looking to be offended there is much to be offended by – yet what Pell is saying is not that unusual if you know the story. The foundation of Judaism is the covenant at Sinai. This is how Paul Johnson describes it.
They were a servile people, who rose up against their Egyptian master, the most ancient and autocratic monarchy in the world. They fled into the desert, and received their laws in mass popular assembly, not in some long-established city but on the bare mountainside from a wild leader who did not even call himself king.
So not just shepherds – escaped slaves. Much is made of the slavery in the foundation story.
(From memory – the book is in my office) Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan asks the question who would or should a creator reveal themselves to in order to influence the world – a great power or a small people? He says the same sorts of things Pell was trying to say – before being interrupted by Tony Jones. Kaplan was a bit more articulate – but then he wasn’t on national television when he wrote his argument.
The other bit of controversy is this.
… he also suggested that ”no people in history were [as severely] punished as the Germans were”, apparently ignoring the Holocaust, for which the Germans were punished.
The Germans were punished for the Holocaust? Really? By whom? Well, maybe. Fifty years of communism is a huge punishment. But again read the transcript.
TONY JONES: But he chose to intervene at different times in history to save the Jews when they were going over the River Jordan. I mean there are many times when, apparently, God has intervened in biblical times. Why not now?
GEORGE PELL: Well, that’s I think revelation is complete. That’s a mighty question. He helped probably through secondary causes for the Jews to escape and continue. It is interesting through these secondary causes probably no people in history have been punished the way the Germans were. It is a terrible mystery.
TONY JONES: There would be a very strong argument saying that the Jews of Europe suffered worse than the Germans.
GEORGE PELL: Yes, that might be right. Certainly the suffering in both I mean the Jews there was no reason why they should suffer.
The ten plagues were visited on the Egyptians and communism on the Germans. I suspect that is the mystery Pell refers to.
Okay – so what is going on here? George Pell is an anomaly in a secular world and in an anti-religious world. The way to understand Pell is to recognise that he actually believes in God and consequently that the bible and religious teachings should be taken seriously. Now we may disagree on that point – but to dismiss him as being racist or narrow-minded or offensive would be a mistake.
Erk…
ar
13 Apr 12 at 10:53 am
Yep – Abraham, Issac and Jacob were …
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 10:59 am
I think this is exaggerating a bit. They had city states ruled by kings *and then* they got conquered by the bigger empires. But they definitely had cities before that. Hence all those Biblical kings in the Old Testament. After all as you would know, the bits of the Bible they wrote after they became slaves is not accepted as the definitive version.
jtfsoon
13 Apr 12 at 11:01 am
Jason – not at Sinai. All that comes after. But look at this from Pell’s perspective; the bible is true that implies that God revealed himself to a ragged bunch of escaped slaves in the middle of the desert. The question then is ‘why?’. Why not reveal yourself to the greatest civilisation around – the Egyptians?
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 11:04 am
The ABC invents a new country “Caldia”. Chaldea I think is what you wanted. Sumer.
Bruce
13 Apr 12 at 11:05 am
Sorry – I meant the spelling…
ar
13 Apr 12 at 11:10 am
oops – fixed. thanks.
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 11:13 am
While I don’t agree with everything Pell said, I think it has all the hallmarks of a get square by the SMH. It wouldn’t be easy to sit there and have to speak off the cuff as he did. My question, why Pell, surely to be fair Dawkin’s responses should be analysed as well.
Oh, and if we’re talking of fanciful comments, how is it people like Flannery are never checked in the manner pell was?
Nic
13 Apr 12 at 11:13 am
Pell was just saying the Jews were not an advanced culture 2000 years ago. I understood what he meant, but Jones tried to turn what he said into a negative criticism. Again I ask myself, why watch Qanda…
ar
13 Apr 12 at 11:15 am
Yes, I mentioned this disgraceful line of questioning on Monday night.
dover_beach
13 Apr 12 at 11:19 am
The bit about the status of the Jews as the local underdogs was just a valid enough point a bit poorly expressed.
However, it’s hard not to expect Jews to find some offence in the equivocation to the suggestion that their suffering was worse than that of the Germans: “Yes, that might be right…”
It was a silly point that he attempted to make anyway.
steve from brisbane
13 Apr 12 at 11:21 am
Ah yes, the SMH, always at the ready to defend the Jews.
Gab
13 Apr 12 at 11:22 am
Steve – interpersonal utility comparisons are not valid anyway, but trying to out-suffer others isn’t a good approach. Jonathan Sacks argues strongly against this in his 1991 book Arguments for the sake of heaven.
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 11:25 am
Lol… imagine the sheer disgust if Pell had actually said the Germans had been punished enough by communism in the east.
Jones and part of the audience would have been horrified.
JC
13 Apr 12 at 11:28 am
It was a silly point that he attempted to make anyway.
Responding to a question?
dover_beach
13 Apr 12 at 11:28 am
As someone said over at Troppo, although I changing it a little…:-)
Jones is turning Q&A into an inner city bogan version of the Jerry Springer Show.
Instead of getting chants like ” Jerry, Jerry, Jerry” We’ll be getting ” Tony, Tony, Tony”.
JC
13 Apr 12 at 11:31 am
I’m not sure of your point Sinclair: are you saying Jews shouldn’t be trying to “out suffer others”, or that Pell shouldn’t be suggesting that you can balance up the ledger of suffering in a way that makes God look not so bad?
From my point of view: the Holocaust was a uniquely appalling event in terms of motive, numbers of people affected and the time frame in which it happened. I would, if a Jew, be offended at the suggestion that 40 years under communism for half of Germany was anything like equivalent suffering.
steve from brisbane
13 Apr 12 at 11:33 am
The Germans were reduced by a third by the Thirty Years War, and so on. Still, the Poles suffered more and for longer.
dover_beach
13 Apr 12 at 11:37 am
Steve – yes to both. Yes ‘the Holocaust was a uniquely appalling event in terms of motive, numbers of people affected and the time frame in which it happened.’ and yes ‘ Jews shouldn’t be trying to “out suffer others”’. As Jonathan Sacks writes, “Judaism survives despite Auschwitz, not because of it.” (1991: 101).
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 11:39 am
Stepford
Are you able to read English or wasn’t that taught in the TAFE diploma you went through in rural Qld.
This is what Pell said:
There is no equivalence here with the Holocaust, you conservative liberal voting Catholic. The Jews weren’t “punished” by the Halocaust. They were fucking murdered, you imbecile.
The two concepts, murder and punishment are different. Tony Springer didn’t pick that up and of course neither did you.
JC
13 Apr 12 at 11:40 am
You do know that Exodus is not an historical fact?
Cy
13 Apr 12 at 11:50 am
Hmmm. I can’t bring myself to fault Jews on the grounds that they want to claim to have “out suffered” others if it is someone else (like Pell) bringing up a pretty spurious example of compensatory suffering in the first place.
steve from brisbane
13 Apr 12 at 11:51 am
No – this ‘out-suffering’ is disgusting.
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 11:52 am
Gab
13 Apr 12 at 11:59 am
He has a predilection for cheap, “gotcha” interviewing techniques. He often interrupts someone midway through an answer by asking them to clarify some minor detail or innocuous turn of phrase. He then often uses the disjointed response to create an impression of confusion or at worst deliberately conflates the two separate responses to manufacture an answer the interviewee didn’t actually give.
badm0f0
13 Apr 12 at 12:01 pm
The funny thing is the line of questioning actually began with Jones hurrumphing about why the Jews were special.
The left nowadays hates Jews but will pretend to defend them if an alleged critic of Jews is a Catholic.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 12:05 pm
Agree it’s a bit of a beat-up, but Pell did stumble on that line of questioning. Dawkins did at other times – in fact they were both pretty terrible debaters.
papachango
13 Apr 12 at 12:05 pm
Pell’s statement:
“On ABC1’s “Q & A” program on Monday night, I tried to make a point about the unique place of the Jewish people in human history as the first to receive the revelation of the one true God, while I was being regularly interrupted and distracted by the chairman.
Cardinal Pell with Rabbi Jeremy Lawrence
“Why did the Lord choose the Jewish people and lead them to a Promised Land between the greatest military and cultural powers of the era? Human thinking assumes that if something needs to be done, you go to the powerful. But God did not choose Egypt or any of the Eastern nations, Assyria, Chaldea or Persia, the great powers of the day. Instead he went to a people who at the time of Abraham, were nomads and shepherds, making them over time a great nation. “Historically” or “culturally” unequal might have been more appropriate than “intellectually”. My reference to “morally” was interrupted, but as I would never describe the Jewish people at any stage as morally inferior to their pagan neighbours, I was attempting to establish a counter poise to my earlier comment when interrupted.
“I also made some remarks about the way the German people were punished for the Holocaust, which is a crime unique in history for the death and suffering it caused and its diabolical attempt to wipe out an entire people.
“At the back of my mind I was thinking about an answer the Jewish writer David Berlinski gave to atheist Sam Harris on why God did not prevent the Holocaust. Referring to the incredible destruction and loss of life that the Allies inflicted on Germany in the course of the war which Germany started, Berlinski observed that ‘if God did not protect his chosen people precisely as Harris might have wished, He did, in an access of his old accustomed vigor, smite their enemies, with generations to come in mourning or obsessed by shame’.
“This is not to deny the enormous sufferings that the Germans caused to the other peoples of Europe. But Berlinski’s thoughts point us to the mysterious ways in which great crimes are sometimes brought home to those who have committed them.
“My commitment to friendship with the Jewish community, and my esteem for the Jewish faith is a matter of public record, and the last thing I would want to do is give offence to either. This was certainly not my intention, and I am sorry that these points which I tried to make on Q&A on Monday did not come out as I would have preferred in the course of the discussion.”
Gab
13 Apr 12 at 12:05 pm
You think?
Pell doesn’t think that. If you want to understand what he thinks you need to start by understanding the framework he thinks in.
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 12:11 pm
Pell’s explanation is fair enough – and was an explanation (particularly on the German issue) that deserved to be made.
steve from brisbane
13 Apr 12 at 12:15 pm
Like the victim/grievance hierarchy, is there also a hierarchy of hatred – I imagine wealthy caucasioan middle aged males would sit at to top?
papachango
13 Apr 12 at 12:15 pm
Incidentally, you know what was interesting about the debate? That Q&A – a show that has long featured Muslims as the face of religiosity – didn’t choose an imam to debate Dawkins. I suspect the reason is that Pell is a hate figure to the left and was therefore bankable as the official baddy. Had his seat been occupied instead by a Muslim, Dawkins’ godlessness would have constituted an attack on Allah and, therefore, would have been Racist. Because the left has nothing but respect for Mohammed and his moon god.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 12:20 pm
excellent point – I would have loved to have seen that, even just to see Catherine Deveny’s head explode trying to work out whose side to take.
papachango
13 Apr 12 at 12:26 pm
even just to see Catherine Deveny’s head explode trying to work out whose side to take.
Heh.
TimT
13 Apr 12 at 12:44 pm
Yes, this whole thing has demonstrated the complete ignorance of the ABC and Fairfax crew. The only problem is, it’s only demonstrated it to the people who were competent to know that in the first place!
Ignorance, ignorance and more ignorance, seasoned with an arrogant desire to make anyone who disagrees with them look like a bigot. They did it very well. If I hadn’t recently finished reading the Old Testament, I probably would’ve been gaping at what Pell said. But every one of his points was completely accurate, and everything Tony said, and Fairfax has done with it, is completely ignorant.
There’s none so ignorant as won’t learn.
(And yes, I have to laugh at that “Caldia”. The person is obviously completely ignorant not just of history, but also English spelling. “Caldia” would be stressed on the first syllable.)
Alexander
13 Apr 12 at 1:10 pm
I raised a similar point on Monday – that it was God v Athiest with the Catholic in the dock for the defense.
Considering it is Easter / Pesach, I believe the show would’ve had greater potency with a representative from Orthodox and Judaism.
I repeat another point, I really would’ve like a Copt there as it would be very topical to have Dawkins discuss the place of faith with a representative of a faith under persecution.
Token
13 Apr 12 at 1:11 pm
Again, we have here the classic ouptpourings of dualism, from not only Pell but also from the scholars quoted.
First let’s clear up an obtuse error of fact. Judaism did not ‘begin’ at Mt Sinai. The Hebrews were a national group with a close attachment to God extending back to Babel and by logical exegesis, right back to Noah and Adam. To suggest otherwise completely ignores the covenant with Abraham himself, 40years in the wilderness, the Passover and exodus, Joseph, Isaac, Melchizedek, Job, and of course Noah.
The events at Mt Sinai were a sealed contract which ratified and clarified a relationship and worldview that already existed.
Pell’s comments stem from his post modern, dualistic view of history. His official position seems to be that of Chief Embarrassor for Christians in Australia, with his outspoken media presence. Watching he and Dawkins go head to head is like watching two children argue over the colour of an orange – and both getting it wrong.
Pell’s suggestion that the Hebrews were intellectual minows is preposterous. Joseph was the most powerful man in Egypt, or has Pell relativised such history out of existence? The Hebrews flourished under Joseph’s patronage, and only later were discriminated against and enslaved by worried Egyption nationals.
Pell makes such claims becuase he does not understand the core history of Judeo-Christianity which has a central, constant theme of unification of truth and reality under God, the creator. Pell prefers to adapt the modern verion of Greek Platonism to his view of the world, separating the physical realm from the spiritual. For the Israelites and most of Christian history, such ideas were unthinkable and blasphemous.
Thus, Pell re-interprets the history of the Bible in obeisance to modern academia, as an evolutionary ‘progression’ in which the Jews were a primitive people who ‘believed’ in a particular God (note the dualistic separation of God from man), and that their ‘natural’ evolutionary development as a society was ‘behind’ others with more political clout. Then he bumbles his way through a relativistic argument that tries to sever Jesus from this evolutionary development. What rot.
The most distinct revelation of Pell’s worldview came in his answer to Jone’s question about God intervening in the world today. Pell had no meaningful answer because he has to separate God from the physical world in his mind, in which case Jones’ question poses a true conundrum.
In fact the answer should have been simple. ‘Tony, God IS intervening in the world today. We can’t separate God from our daily lives, from the choices we make, because He created this universe and is intrinsically linked with its fate. He came to us as a real, physical person, showed us the good news about our future in his resurrection, and is currently ruling the world through his Holy Spirit. We merely await the end of the last enemy, death, and his return as a human to fully restore creation and to judge our response to Him.’
Uber
13 Apr 12 at 1:31 pm
Also Sinc,
“A bit is a storm has arisen..”
of
[Thanks. Fixed. Sinc]
Ooh Honey Honey
13 Apr 12 at 1:46 pm
The other great power Cardinal Pell referred is called Chaldea, not Caldia as the ABC would have it. And as the person who wrote the transcript and the editors who passed it have obviously never heard of the culture they are hardly in a position to pass judgement on anyone who refers to it. We civilised Westerners, Jews and all, mightn’t like the idea but we are intellectually, socially, politically, economically and in every way inferior to the ancient Egyptians. And the evidence for that declaration is there staring us in the face if we dare to look.
Not The First Time
13 Apr 12 at 1:50 pm
The other interesting thing about this storm is that Jones would have said nothing had the subject been the intellectual and moral superiority of the medieval caliphate compared to Europe. In fact, he would have been panting with excitement if that comparison had been made, and there would be no need for any “clarification” from anyone.
Another reason the Left should be banned, BTW.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 2:22 pm
No surprise. For the ABC and smh, anti- catholic bigotry is the go to play. Continues a fine Australian tradition, doesn’t place favored minorities at risk ( after all Tony jones would never dare to criticize the Muslim faith), and always the chance to slip in some catholic=kiddie-fiddler humour – which occurred and had Dawkins and parts of audience laughing and jones smirking. Still, very transparent and reflects prejudice at abc and smh for all to see.
Jack
13 Apr 12 at 2:52 pm
Wonder if Tony Jones will be applying the Pell standard to his next Bob Brown interview ? Not holding my breath…
Jack
13 Apr 12 at 2:58 pm
The funniest thing this idiot Pell said was that the Germans had had it worse than the Jews. Obviously he had senior moment and didn’t actually mean it but was a pretty bad fuck up for a guy in his position.
LaRouchite
13 Apr 12 at 3:10 pm
Well our ABC is a balanced broadcaster (NOT), but
aside from that, sanctimonious groups can always do with a bit of ridicule. Of course, that also includes the ABC, along with representatives currently running the government & having the gall to be offended when we describe them as lazy & utterly inept. Just as a sample take Bob Carr, Stating that he should be entitled to receive his tax free income & benefits without having to do little things such as encourage acceptance of illicit drug laws!!!! The type of stupidity we had become used to hearing from Bob Brown.
maurie
13 Apr 12 at 3:16 pm
LaRouchite – perhaps you could cut and paste the bit where he said that?
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 3:18 pm
Douche, try not to make a complex pillock of yourself.
Its always best to check if your supposedly cutting comment had already been shredded by a thoughtful reposte.
e.g. Sinc @ 11:39am
Token
13 Apr 12 at 3:18 pm
SNAP
Token
13 Apr 12 at 3:19 pm
Sinc:
Why would he even say this? Trying to compare the punishing of the Germans to the Jews is real fringe nutter stuff.
A prick thing to say and reeks of anti-semitism.
LaRouchite
13 Apr 12 at 3:34 pm
That cut/pasted quote doesn’t say what you think it says.
brc
13 Apr 12 at 3:36 pm
You’re out of your depth in this debate LaRouche.
Be a dear and rustle up the latest TV ratings?
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 3:37 pm
LaRouchite – no. That isn’t the same as ‘the Germans had had it worse than the Jews.’
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 3:40 pm
Come on Sinc you can’t polish a turd all though I see you gave it a red hot go above.
LaRouchite
13 Apr 12 at 3:43 pm
No, as a supporter of an extreme, fringe ideology, you are the only nutter around here.
Obviously, the Germans were punished like no other country after WWI and WWII. But the Jews were not punished as they hadn’t done anything wrong (punishment implies there was an initial wrong that had to be corrected). As being punished and suffering are not the same category, it doesn’t follow that Pell was comparing them.
Finally, as a supporter of the BDS movement, you are not allowed to talk about anti-semitism.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 3:44 pm
LaRouchite – sure. But I’m not polishing a turd. Pell has been verballed.
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 3:47 pm
You are right, he can’t. You are the Cat’s turd polisher.
Considering you hang out at Crikey you have a lot to handle..
Token
13 Apr 12 at 3:47 pm
Fisky,
I see as I suspected the Right have gone into weasel words spinning & double speak territory that would make Howard or Bolt blush in their attempts to explain way Pell’s brain fart (I’m being generous here).
LaRouchite
13 Apr 12 at 3:48 pm
Poor old LaRouchite.
Poor old lefties.
This whole thing didn’t go according to the script.
The idea was that Cardinal Pell (instead of Sheik Hilali, for example) would be invited on and humiliated by the superior ‘scientist.’
Oops-a-daisy!
Instead, Dawkins was destroyed by Pell.
Tony Jones and senior ABC staffers are probably meeting as we speak to work out what went wrong.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 3:48 pm
No no, the problem is all yours, Douche. Pell is not the most articulate figure (although he’s always much better than grammatically-challenged Centrelink recipients like you), but his point is valid. Obviously, being punished is an entirely separate thing from suffering and there is no contradiction between saying that Germans have been punished the most on one hand, and that Jews have suffered the most on the other. Sorry if that’s still above your head, but I did my best to simplify it for you.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 3:55 pm
I’ve said before as loathsome a person as Pell is he did better than Dawkins, hardly destroyed though. Dawkins refusal to question what happened before the big bang was ridiculous.
Given how badly the ABC stacked the audience with happy clappers I highly doubt that CL.
LaRouchite
13 Apr 12 at 4:02 pm
Pell is a great person, a great Australian and a great divine.
We’re all proud of him.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 4:06 pm
Don’t know. How many people identify as being atheist?
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 4:07 pm
Fisky,
Don’t get upset because Pell’s an idiot (again being generous).
If you want to be an apologist for Pell or the Vatican or something good for you.
LaRouchite
13 Apr 12 at 4:07 pm
Sinc, you saw their overtly positive responses to anything that fell out of Pell’s mouth and continually laughing at Dawkins.
Even Dawkins commented on how stacked the audience was.
LaRouchite
13 Apr 12 at 4:09 pm
You really don’t like Catholics or Christians do you Douche?
Why the hate?
Token
13 Apr 12 at 4:09 pm
And it was good to see so many intelligent, young, Christian, level-headed, rational and nonhateful people in an ABC audience for once. Australia at its best.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 4:11 pm
I don’t hate them but have no time for flat-earthers trying to muddy the waters of science. I remember what they tried to do in Dover, it was gross.
LaRouchite
13 Apr 12 at 4:11 pm
LaRouchite – didn’t watch the show.
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 4:11 pm
Douche, if you have no argument it would be much better and healthier for you to admit it. And faster, too, than starting a losing thread of doom.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 4:15 pm
You should check it out on iView Sinc, the crowd was certainly stacked. I still enjoyed it though and really the topic probably deserved two hours.
Supposedly it was Q&A’s highest rating episode since the 2010 election stuff too.
LaRouchite
13 Apr 12 at 4:18 pm
I could but I’m all ABC’d out after having to read the transcript.
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 4:31 pm
A stacked crowd my arse. My God, you leftist swines can’t stand it when we aren’t all marching in lock step with you down Parisian avenues.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 4:40 pm
It seems NoFax journalists have the ethical standards of the US CBS, ABC & CNN organisations:
Token
13 Apr 12 at 4:48 pm
This is all bollocks! but I would agree that TJ is an atrocious interviewer, Pell was very civil and the Dawk was, well, a dork.
amcoz
13 Apr 12 at 4:49 pm
1. selective and deliberately deceptive quotation
2. anti ancient-Israel tirade
3. no one suffered more than the Germans
= doddering and rambling cleric
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 4:58 pm
Time to fire up the elephants Lad,some folks need to be taught a lesson
Tal
13 Apr 12 at 5:09 pm
Where?
So stating that one country is less developed than another is an anti-… tirade? I presume that means anyone who goes on about the “Islamic Golden Age” must be logically “anti-Europe”.
Really, where did he say that no one suffered more than the Germans? (I know what you are referring to – this is a lexical test as much as a logical one)
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 5:20 pm
A very dirty pot calling the kettle black, Bob? You define rambling bobster.
JC
13 Apr 12 at 5:33 pm
Catholics believe in the trinity so … what can one really argue?
Ancient Israel was more sophisticated than the primitive depiction that Pell gave of it, which is part of the Catholic mythology that Christ came into the world in a poor country and went on to conquer the civilised worlds of Greece and Rome.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 5:35 pm
You’d know. You were in your 20′s then.
JC
13 Apr 12 at 5:45 pm
OK then, I’ve always wanted to get to the bottom of this. Let’s get it out:
The Jews are an incredibly sophisticated race of people. 15 million people have produced a massively disproportionate amount of the science in the world, the inventions, the (credible) philosophy, the (worthwhile) arts. They repeatedly wage war against the whole Arab world to preserve the tiny, relatively irrelevant, state of Israel, and repeatedly win. (Not to mention, Jewish women are hawt!).
Yet throughout history they are considered Sheylocks, unsophisticated and unwanted. An unattractive type of people who assume power solely to their own ends.
Why is that? You know you want to get to the bottom of this!
John Mc
13 Apr 12 at 5:50 pm
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Woolfe
13 Apr 12 at 5:58 pm
John Mc – see here.
Sinclair Davidson
13 Apr 12 at 6:08 pm
OMG. ANOTHER one. The paranoia is stunning.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 6:14 pm
Malcolm Gladwell wrote a nice article on how the Jews came to dominate the legal fraternity in New York.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 6:17 pm
Here’s what Catholics believe:
That a virgin was impregnated by God and gave birth to a baby God (Or was it God himself? Or was it the son of God? This has never been made clear).
That the god/man was killed (WTF! Humans killed a god?!) however he came back to life before ascending to heaven.
That the god/man “died” for our sins…Well for two days anyway.
The fact that Dawkins couldn’t beclown Pell shows how hopeless the Dork is rather than the strength of Pell’s argument.
jupes
13 Apr 12 at 6:34 pm
Peter, what is your problem? Is it that gay couples end up being almost as sexless as lezzer couples? Perhaps you need a new beau to reignite your heathen lust and get you back on an even keel.
Until then, do we really need you interrupting old and dear friends while they bash the microcephalic bonces of left wing interlopers?
Abu Chowdah
13 Apr 12 at 6:43 pm
Pell is probably the most high profile Australian clergyman. It shouldn’t be surprising that they chose him to front Dawkins.
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 6:51 pm
Peter, Read La Rouche’s comments I based that comment on. They were smarmy and full of intolerance. I didn’t accuse him of sectarianism as I wanted to give him a chance to explain.
You I treat differently as over many months I’ve noted there is more to you than the current stirring indicates.
Token
13 Apr 12 at 6:59 pm
Jupes, does your exposé of the Catholic faith indicate that you believe most of the Christian religion has no value?
John Mc
13 Apr 12 at 7:00 pm
You do know that Exodus is not an historical fact?
Sinclair Davidson wrote:
1) Yes, I do think, facts are facts. People here still argue as if it was an historical fact. Incredible!
2) his framework is based on delusion. I do understand it, I don’t care for it. Pell was a light weight! He couldn’t even put a rational/reasonable argument forward that night.
Cy
13 Apr 12 at 7:06 pm
Okay Cy. Outside of some Larmarckian voodoo how does evolution work, because the random genetic mutation theory sounds like it’s based on pure uncertainty to me.
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 7:10 pm
John,
I believe it is a load of tosh.
As to its value; Overall I would have to say it has been valuable to human development and civilisation. Far better to live in a society with a European / Judeo / Christian history than anywhere else.
However it was also responsible for the dark ages and the inquisition, so it hasn’t been all good.
jupes
13 Apr 12 at 7:15 pm
Peter Slipper?
But thank goodness Oxford and Pontifical Urbaniana graduate Pell was available because he’s given the Atheist Taliban a smacking they won’t soon forget.
Incidentally, I wondered why nothing was made of Dawkins’ wavering on atheism, as reported earlier this year.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 7:17 pm
Easy, you forgot to add the natural selection part. You can’t discuss one without the other when referring to evolution. But you could always try google, it’s better than the bible for answers.
Cy
13 Apr 12 at 7:19 pm
Here’s what Catholics believe:
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 7:20 pm
A couple of friends have no religious affiliation whatsoever would describe it thus also. Makes sense they see the religion this way and it’s interesting seeing it through their eyes.
Gab
13 Apr 12 at 7:21 pm
Natural selection is built on the uncertainty of random genetic mutation.
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 7:22 pm
So which is kinder on the losers?
Natural selection or Britain under Thatcher? I really would’ve lived to pose that to Dawkins.
Token
13 Apr 12 at 7:24 pm
Did you die Token?
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 7:27 pm
Here’s what Catholics believe:
Thanks C.L.
That seems to be a passable Latin translation of what I wrote.
jupes
13 Apr 12 at 7:28 pm
What, no, it is the basis by which genetic traits are continued based on their adaptive qualities to the environment. Look, just go and look it up. There is an enormous amount of evidence on this stuff. Unlike Global Warming Tipping Points the science is actually real and tested and proven/observed in realtime at virus and bacterial level, at least.
Cy
13 Apr 12 at 7:29 pm
No SDFC, I continue to live and love.
Token
13 Apr 12 at 7:30 pm
I’m trying to go a bit deeper than the Readers Gigest version Cy. If you can’t answer the quesion that’s fine.
Thank god for that Token, your comment had me worried.
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 7:37 pm
Are you familiar with the Readers Gigest?
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 7:37 pm
Gab
You wanted to learn about the Roman part of Roman Catholicism? Seems like CL might even be able to give you a hand. Amen.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 7:43 pm
sdfc is drunk again.
Jarrah
13 Apr 12 at 7:47 pm
Yes I am and uni has ruined you.
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 7:50 pm
Then again, CL would probably give you a very perverted view, given the intensity of his anger at God. Perhaps it would be best to wait until CL one day finally mans-up and tells God directly, that he is so angry at him, and why; if he knows why, that is. But seriously, I think God is more likely to shine a light on the right road out of that anger, than all the indirect means CL uses at present. Peace be with y’all.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 7:51 pm
Token
Dude, no sweat. Jesus, why do folks get so testy over this stuff?
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 7:53 pm
No, Peter. I was having a dig at you for linking the Roman Empire to the Roman in Catholicism.
Gab
13 Apr 12 at 7:53 pm
Not surprising that fxj created a strawman argument. Needed to take focus away from Dawkins, who seemed over-confident & expecting a similar discussion to his last Q&A when he verbally beat up Steve fielding and a hapless front row Muslim. This time he didn’t have a stacked audience of sycophantsand seemed shocked and stunned when people weren’t in awe of his magnificence. He was unable to coherently explain his own beliefs when questioned by audience ‘how do you get something from nothing’, ‘are you an athiest or an agnostic’ (as he told archbishop of Canterbury). Would hate to live in his darwinistic world.
Jack
13 Apr 12 at 7:53 pm
Abu, apart from the fact your understanding of the data on frequency of sex among different groups is bizarrely so wrong, if I did have the problems you suggest, I would blame nobody but myself.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 7:56 pm
Sinclair,
The only conclusion I make from this case of Pell being misquoted is that it seems that this misrepresenting the facts into what they, the left, believe Pell said, as opposed to what he actually said, is intrinsic to leftism, the fabricating of history, whether in the immediate in Pell’s case, or during the past, no matter how ancient.
If that is the case, that the left in general fabricate history, then they would have been doing since time immemorial, and hence anything that lefties recount, whether orally or in writing, has to be suspect, and that goes for the changes in meaning that occurred over time when the original Jewish texts, written in Aramaic?, were translated into Greek, then Latin followed by English.
I stumbled on this fact decades ago when I was checking the scriptural citations by one particular author. I picked up a Good News Bible, and compared the citation in the book with the Bible – and to my surprise the citations were quite different. Then I realised that at the time the subject book was written, the Good News Bible did not exist, and the only Bible the author could have used was the King James version. My guess was right, and the citations matched.
What was surprising was the complete change in meaning indicated by the newer Bible. This fact then led to the realisation that earlier versions of the texts the Bible was based on might have also had their meanings changed.
This led to the useful conclusion that nothing a lefty writes can be assumed to be factually correct, and then one needs to identify the political hue of an author in order to work out whether what that author wrote could be accepted at face value.
Which means that nothing lefties write can be taken at face value since even they seem unaware that they are changing the meanings that the original authors wished to convey in their writings or scripts.
On this basis one can ignore the arguments of any and all lefties, whether in the field of economics, history or science. It tends to simplify matters greatly by not having to waste time trying to interpret the, often sincere, deliberations of lefties.
Louis Hissink
13 Apr 12 at 7:57 pm
gab
A dig? I’m sorry, back up there. Are you seriously saying you reject the link between the Roman empire and Roman Catholicism?
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 8:01 pm
Aww, jeez, I’m so dumb, Peter. I mean, you’re the greatest historian since Aesop was a boy. You’d better educate me. ta.
Gab
13 Apr 12 at 8:03 pm
Only if they are insane Peter. The title Pope should give them a clue.
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 8:04 pm
Those damn papists, they have been very uppity since we let them work in the banks and insurance companies and join the local golf club.
Jack
13 Apr 12 at 8:10 pm
Pell’s point was not to have a go at anybody on the basis of ethnicity. His point was to emphasise the consistency between God’s message, and who He chose to reveal it to. Unlike all other human gods, up until that time in that part of the world, the Christian God is/was on the side of the ordinary, the oppressed, and the masses, rather than the kings and the filthy rich, who were the messengers of all the other religions around at that time.
To identify the world of Judea as more primitive than Rome, Egypt, Persia, and Greece in the 1st century BC, is not to diss the Jews. Even an atheist would agree that Pell was spot on here. And it also explains why Jesus Christ did not enter the world through any of those other more advanced societies.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 8:11 pm
Sorry Peter, in Jermyn street buying shoes. Will cite the studies when I get back to the hotel.
Abu Chowdah
13 Apr 12 at 8:13 pm
Gab, I’m sorry, but if that is your level of knowledge, there is no way in hell I could ever muster the patience. I suggest you hit the books.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 8:13 pm
Peter, why do you always say “Roman Catholic” when you talk about the Church in general?
Gab
13 Apr 12 at 8:15 pm
Peter Patton,
Which God? The God quoted in the Old Testament, or the one in the New? One and same if and only off one accepts divine schizophrenia ?
Louis Hissink
13 Apr 12 at 8:25 pm
Whoops, ‘only if’ not ‘only off’ – I usually shorten the phrase to iff but decided not to here.
Louis Hissink
13 Apr 12 at 8:27 pm
‘Pope’ is not a “title.” It simply means father. It’s more like an honorific and was not even exclusive to the Bishop of Rome until the 12th century. It’s still used by the head of the Coptic Church.
You were saying something about getting a clue?
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 8:34 pm
Actually I was thinking of Pontiff but couldn’t be fucked correcting myself. Thanks for noticing and giving me a reason to do so.
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 8:37 pm
Elephants Lad stat
Tal
13 Apr 12 at 8:40 pm
East Germany ≠ “The Germans”.
Pell was NOT talking about communism.
What a pathetic sight. A bunch of squibertarians bunching their panties over some racist old sky pilot making a duffer of himself.
All aboard the failboat.
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 8:44 pm
Really? How is George Pell a racist, FDB?
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 8:51 pm
There goes your very own all aboard whistle FDB – Captain Brown is in desperate need for some seamen on his very own leaky failboat. Hope you get to plug the hole before it sinks.
Jack
13 Apr 12 at 8:52 pm
Hey, we finally found some Jews living in Israel the left likes!
This is a good start.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 8:56 pm
Tiny steps Tiger tiny steps
Tal
13 Apr 12 at 8:57 pm
No, wrong again.
You were thinking of Pontifex Maximus – which is not one of the pope’s official titles and never has been. It was used from time to time in reference to bishops and patriarchs in general.
Pontiff simply means priest. The title “Supreme Pontiff” (an official title) just means chief priest. Nor was it a straight adoption from the Roman Empire; nor has it ever referred excusively to the Bishop of Rome; nor is its use even exclusive to Christianity.
Now you were saying something about getting a clue?
Look, I love that everyone constantly talks about Catholicism. Who the hell cares about Anglicanism or Lutheranism, am I right? But please don’t comment on things you know nothing about.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 9:00 pm
This raises the question of Christianity and capitalism once again.
The reality is however that Christianity made its peace with Rome.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 9:03 pm
Get a haircut Samson.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 9:06 pm
Jack – I can’t make you out there. Are you talking about the same topic as I was?
Fisk – yeah, your finicky point is taken. “Anti-semite” doesn’t quite cut it either, given it covers Arabs too (the irrational hatred of whom by Pell I have no information on one way or another).
How about “Jew-hater”? “Nazi-sympathiser”?
Is that better now?
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 9:09 pm
Another amusing thing about the left and Pell is that when they’re debating “neo-cons” and campaigning against Bushian “war crimes,” their first port of call is invariably Dresden.
I say “another” because I’ve already noted that the anti-semite left only pretends to be Outrageously Outraged about alleged anti-semitism when the culprit (real or, in this case, imagined) is a Catholic. Thus, Mel Gibson is evil but Tanya Plibersek is a gem. George Pell is anti-Jewish but Jeremiah Wright-schooled Obama is Righteous Among The Nation.
Sorry, lefties. You’re scrambling for a polemical toehold to assuage the acute sense of embarrassment you feel that Atheist Taliban leader, Sheik Dick Dawkins, was beclowned by an altogether superior intellect on Monday night.
Suck it up.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 9:10 pm
Huh? He irrationally hates them, yet you have no information on this?
George Pell is a man filled with love and a diehard Richmond fan.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 9:11 pm
Hang on, doesn’t that mean bridge builder, from what I remember it dates back to the original kings of Rome. Just curious.
Cy
13 Apr 12 at 9:16 pm
Pell has spent his whole career ingratiating himself to the right side of politics, both ecclesiastical and secular, so there’s no surprise that he’s so loved by some.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 9:21 pm
Well, to be a die-hard Richmond fan, you’ve got to be full of something. Love might be enough, but for me it’d take vodka in unsafe dosages.
Anyway, a non-moron would read my comment as saying that I don’t have any information about whether Pell harbours irrational hatred for Arabs. I honestly don’t know, because I lack evidence of any kind.
For me to believe, in this particular epistemological situation, that Pell did hate Arabs would be a leap of faith akin to belief in God. I’m not the man for the job. Faith is for chumps.
Let’s just concern ourselves with those things for which there is evidence. To wit:
George Pell has sympathy for the “punishment” meted out to the Germans for their massacre of the Jews.
He is on the record as being objectively a Nazi sympathiser.
Here endeth the lesson.
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 9:23 pm
I’ll try posting this again.
Doesn’t, Pontifex, mean bridge builder? I think it refers to a position that started during the time of the roman kings. Just curious.
Cy
13 Apr 12 at 9:24 pm
This is quite high level trolling. I imagine the events of the last week are causing you to lash out. Christianity’s greatest gift to us apart from eternal life is grace, so I won’t call you cockhead.
Be easy my friend.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 9:28 pm
What do you think he was sympathising with “the Germans” for IT?
Are you going to grit your teeth, swallow you intellectual pride, cut off your balls and pretend it was communism?
Because I can think of plenty of places that have suffered much more from the scourge of communism than Germany ever did.
So what was it then? What was the Germans’ “punishment” all about? May your God give you the grace to answer truthfully.
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 9:32 pm
cy, yeah from the Latin pons (“bridge”,) it was a high religious position in pagan Rome, who supervised all the priests. The Xians adopted the term pontifex to refer to their own bishops. In pagan Rome, the pontifex maximus, was the head such ‘bishop’. From Augustus onwards, the emperor appropriated pontifex maximus for himself, as the Roman emperor became a god. The early Xian emperors continued with this until the late 380s. The title pontifex maximus then went the bishop of Rome – the Pope. Eventually, only the bishop of Rome took the term pontifex – the Pontiff. And ‘pope’ is just from the Greek word pappas (“father”). Except, of course, a Greek pappas was an actual father who’d done the deed, and had real actual children.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 9:39 pm
FDB I have a lapsed Baptist/Anglican’s grasp of theology and an Australian education systems understanding of history. I can’t truthfully answer. I also can’t read Pell’s mind.
It does seem rather a flight of fancy that only a hobgoblin or foul fiend would suggest, that Pell is a Nazi sympathiser.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 9:43 pm
Thankyou Peter, fascinating.
Cy
13 Apr 12 at 9:44 pm
People have been accused of being pro Nazi around here for saying things less serious than Pell’s unlearned offerings.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 9:45 pm
You mean you don’t know?
Pell was asked about the Holocaust and why God allows such things. He argued the Germans got what they deserved, that they were smote by God as few other nations have been – precisely for the crime of the Holocaust.
It’s perfectly unobjectionable and true as theological contemplation.
How sad that the Janus-faced on-again/off again anti-semites of the left are reduced to scrambling for these crumbs of the debate. A debate won by the Cardinal. And even these crumbs cause them to vomit forth untruths – pursuant to the now boilerplate hate-tactics of Anna Bligh and the Abbott-deranged race riot organisers of the Prime Minister’s office.
But nobody’s buying it anymore.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 9:48 pm
Vulgate Latin translation
What did you say about getting a clue?
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 9:51 pm
I give you the benefit of the doubt, commo.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 9:51 pm
This is what Pell was talking about I think. The revenge against them after the war.
kelly liddle
13 Apr 12 at 9:54 pm
This is a great thread. Congratulations, again, to Cardinal Pell. Well played, Your Eminence.
dover_beach
13 Apr 12 at 9:54 pm
Pontifex maximus was never an official title of the pope.
—————————————————-
Pell has spent his whole career ingratiating himself to the right side of politics…
How devious of him, then, to oppose mandatory detention of asylum seekers, support universal health care in the United States and offend every conservative in the country by accepting a role promoting Republicanism.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 9:57 pm
Well the relationship between Catholicism and capitalism is an aggressively negative one. OTOH, the relationship between northern European (Anglo-Dutch) Protestantism and capitalism is aggressively positive.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 9:58 pm
Pell isnt exactly a good advertisement for conservatism despite what he says about Jews being intellectually inferior – Id say there is a strong chance Pellie boy isnt too bright either.
There are better poster boys out there or should I say alter boys?
Alice
13 Apr 12 at 9:59 pm
I said (correctly), so to speak, that you didn’t have one on the question of the pope’s titles – about which you beclowned yourself twice.
On the first occasion, you said that the title (?) of “pope” should give Catholics a “clue” about their indebtedness to the failed Roman Empire. (Or something).
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 10:02 pm
Pell never said such a thing and it is not even an answer to the question asked.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 10:03 pm
I never said Pell was pro-Nazi.
I said (though it hardly needed to be said, as CL has helpfully illustrated) that he was sympathetic to Germans, for the punishment they suffered for trying to eliminate the Jews.
Perhaps Sinclair still thinks Pell was talking in some secret code about communism, because it’s apparently more politically correct for a public figure to leave his remarks open to pro-Nazi interpretation than anti-communist.
Umm… sure, whatevs Sinc.
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 10:04 pm
I will use all my control and the gift of grace to refrain from suggesting that Alice has a heart shaped vacuum within her filled with rancid bile. She may also be caring for 30+ cats in a studio apartment with no fresh air.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 10:04 pm
So a pagan Roman title being co-opted for the official religion of the latter period Roman Empire was all just a horrible coincidence. Glad you cleared that up.
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 10:06 pm
Pell is to the right of politics, but he is not in politics so he does not have to tow any party line.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 10:06 pm
Quite possibly, IT.
Alice is just another bigot.
Mk50 of Brisbane
13 Apr 12 at 10:07 pm
Their allies the japs being another bunch of vile fascist sh*teaters who spring to mind.
Luvverly bunch they were, as well.
Interesting that both of those peopleses (krauts and japs) are still being smote.
They are extincting themselves.
The festering zombie would approve.
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 10:09 pm
No, it’s not, historiographically – except to undergraduates (or mature age wanderers) put on to (the now heavily revised and widely dismissed) Max Weber by pony-tailed history lecturers.
Capitalism was born in Italy and its seminal founders were Italian and French Catholics, building on the work of the Scholastics and the men of Salamanca.
Joseph Schumpeter on the former, the Spaniards (History of Economic Analysis, 1954):
So yeah. Not only did we invent economics but we invented the universities in which the ‘discipline’ was eventually taught.
More canned fail™ from wrongologist, Peter.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 10:14 pm
God smote nobody.
The people of Germany endured suffering because their political and economic elites offered government to the Nazis in order to ward off the communists and other threats to their geo-economic and geo-political interests.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 10:15 pm
Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!!
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 10:16 pm
CL, you’re splitting again.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 10:18 pm
The ‘volk’ were more than happy to get on board with all that magisterial ‘master raceness’ when the (all too fleeting) benefits became obvious, you disgusting dishonest, shitsack.
Stop proudly displaying your utter ignorance of history.
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 10:20 pm
“George Pell is a much hated man by progressives and the anti-religious brigade.”
Isn’t libertarianism meant to be progressive?
And as a member of the anti-religious brigade I bristle at the suggestion that I would waste such a valuable thing as hatred on some irrelevant old nutjob in a funny costume.
Why are we even talking about this bullshit?
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 10:21 pm
Freedom is a constant. It’s the war on freedom that’s progressive.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 10:23 pm
It is what he was asked and it is what he clearly meant.
God intervened by saving the Jews from the ‘Final Solution’ and for that singularly horrific crime the Germans were smote as few other nations had been.
But again we have to note with amusement how the anti-semite left is pretending to care about the Holocaust – despite virtually every leftist in the country passionately believing that Gaza is a “concentration camp” and the Israelis the new Nazis. In other words, they believe that the ‘Palestinians’ are co-equal sufferers with the Nazi-slaughtered Jews. They repeatedly assert this.
Sorry, lefties. Nobody’s buying it.
Cardinal Pell humiliated Atheist Taliban leader, Sheik Dick, and that – you bunch of losers – is that.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 10:24 pm
Not your meaning of ‘progressive’, effs.
BTW, you’ve returned due to the demise of the lavatory?
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 10:25 pm
Cy:
Well, if it is not based on some kernel of reality, then how does one explain this?
Which also proves, beyond any doubt, the existence of Israelites in Israel about 3,500 years ago.
So much for Arab claims, eh?
Mk50 of Brisbane
13 Apr 12 at 10:26 pm
germans wear a mark on their souls to this day
entropy
13 Apr 12 at 10:27 pm
NO.
Men intervened to stop the final solution.
Six million dead, most of them innocents, FFS?
That’s one ‘angry’ god.
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 10:29 pm
I’ve always struggled with the idea of the interventionist God.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 10:32 pm
What does the Holocaust have to do with Gaza? Nothing.
Pell is more stupid than I thought.
The Germans suffered horrendously at the hands of the Nazis.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 10:33 pm
I agree with CL on one point at least. Dawkins was humiliated.
I mean, how utterly inept would a scientist have to be to even appear to lose a debate about the existence of something for which there is precisely zero evidence?
I’ve met him, BTW, and he’s a smug tool. The Dawk, that is. Derided my suggestion about natural selection for sociability in a social species, then published it a few years later.
Where’s my attribution BITCH?
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 10:33 pm
CL
Pssssssttttt…you forgot “Hall and Oates”.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 10:34 pm
CL:
Good work.
To prove the point, there is a movie, made by Bomber Command just after the fall of the Third Reich.
They flew a bomber over city after city, covering most of the major cities in Germany at low altitude. Each city is a shattered ruin.
it’s a little known fact that because of the dispersion of conventional bombs, a city hit with say 4000 tons of conventional bombs is much more heavily damaged than if hit by a single 10 kiloton nuke.
And every significant city in Germany was levelled, then the ruins were generally fought over. Berlin was smashed, and then fought over like only two other cities in the world were fought over – Stalingrad and Manila.
Ooh, yeah, the Germans got smote alright, and they deserved to reap the whirlwind of every jot and tittle of it.
Mk50 of Brisbane
13 Apr 12 at 10:35 pm
Is there any evidence for the exodus. The Israelites were most likely Canaanites. It really has nothing to do with Jewish claims to Palestine.
sdfc
13 Apr 12 at 10:36 pm
OMFG. This is sensational!
It doesn’t get any better than this.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 10:37 pm
One and the same.
Non kraut non nayzees suffered a hell of a lot more.
Cease your equivocating.
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 10:38 pm
I met the Archbishop Of Canterbury, Robert Runcie in 1986. Seemed a nice man. I was wearing shorts, a school blazer and tie if memory serves.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 10:38 pm
That’s one ‘angry’
godCaptain Catholic.Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 10:39 pm
Try reading one of his books, FFS.
BTW, the dawk makes my skin crawl.
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 10:41 pm
The Nazis hijacked the German people, but they undoubtedly suffered less than the Jews.
But Pell was asked about the Holocaust and he chose to respond about German suffering.
God did not smite the Germans, the Nazis did and then the Allies.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 10:45 pm
Rabz – I was interviewing him for a student rag, and all he wanted to talk about was his book. Imagine that! As if I would read one after that.
My recollection is hazy (understandably given the tenor of the times) but I don’t think the interview even warranted publication, it was so boring. Probably made way for an hilarious expose…
Drinking The Bongwater – Does It Get You Stoned?
But still, when my own little undergrad idea was so poo-pooed, then turned up in his own work, I was a tad miffed and haven’t forgiven him. I hold him to a higher standard than others, cos he has that ground to make up.
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 10:49 pm
Yes, this is the crux of the matter.
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 10:50 pm
For the last time, what part of “One and the same” are you struggling to understand?
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 10:53 pm
I must say that I find these activist atheists a bit strange. It’s one thing to decide that there is no god, and get on with life. You know, cleanse your life of these sort of cares. It is quite another to become an activist atheist that travels the world going to atheist conferences where the only object seems to be to attack judeo-christianity.
I watched a segment on one of these conferences (I assume the dawk is here for it) on the new channel ten morning show this morning. They interviewer actually tried to divert the atheist dude from his rant onto a religion other than christianity. the ch10 guy searched around for an alternative for a few seconds (I could see it was a struggle) then came up with ‘Buddhist’. The atheist sort of mumbled ‘Ahh, Buddhists are mostly harmless’ or something like that, then returned to christian bashing. The elephant, meanwhile, tripped over the chair on the way out the stage door.
I sometimes think this type of person are naturally religious, but cannot reconcile it with their education or knowledge of how the world works. So in an attempt to reconcile within themselves, they substitute another religion, in Dawkins’ case, activist atheism, in someone like Bob Ellis, the ALP.
entropy
13 Apr 12 at 10:53 pm
Very possibly, see the link above.
Um. No. The Canaanites were Canaanites. Their language, pottery, dress, weapons, houses etc were all different. And they were well-off city-based farmers, not poor-arsed hillbilly goat-herders like the Israelites were.
So the unbroken presence of Jews in Judea and Samaria for 3,500 years has nothing to do with Israel. Interesting.
Instead, you seem to support the most recent but one waves of foreign conquerors. Hmm. How does that work? SO applying that same logic to Australia, you think ‘screw the aborigines, they have no claims to Australia because they got conquered by the British’?
Mk50 of Brisbane
13 Apr 12 at 10:56 pm
How many times do we have to go over this? Pell did not discuss German suffering. He did talk about German punishment, which, whether by God or some other force, was probably historically unmatched. This is a separate issue from Jewish suffering and the Far Left attempts to portray Pell as downplaying Jewish suffering are risible. Hypocritical, too, given the same people are barracking for Hamas, an exterminationist anti-semitic organisation.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 10:59 pm
A Q&A where agnostics peppered religious leaders of all persuasions with questions would be more instructive. I’d love to get some Islamic and Buddhist leaders off the leash about homosexuality etc. in a public forum.
Could keep our court system in hate crime work for a decade.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 11:00 pm
No it isn’t, actually, because he did not opine on German suffering.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 11:00 pm
Israel is an European invention and has nothing to do with the Jews who lived all over the Middle East and Northern Africa blissfully unaware that European Jewry wanted to hange address.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 11:01 pm
The historical record suggests otherwise.
The NSDAP, or “Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei” had massive popular support within the fatherland when it ascended to power.
There are no nazi parties that have ever existed outside of germany.
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:02 pm
Kissing Hamas one minute, verballing the Cardinal as an anti-semite the next.
We really should place the Left in mental health care, because their pathological lying and doublethink will cause them to cease functioning as human beings.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 11:03 pm
Mk50, the jewish people are indistinguishable genetically from canaanites. This may be because they are one and the same, or because they lived alongside each other for thousands of years. It doesn’t prove anything one way or another.
There is some thought that there never was an exodus, that the jews lived in palestine all along, and were subjects of the Egyptian empire. No doubt some were slaves taken to Egypt, no doubt many never left canaan. were the ten plagues divinely sourced, or were they natural phenomena that occurred at some time wholly unconnected tot he jews? Who knows? if you believe Moses wrote it like a diary, then it happened that way. If it was someone else chronicling folk stories much later, who knows?
entropy
13 Apr 12 at 11:04 pm
Wow! I had no idea that a country that existed in a remote part of the Middle East thousands of years ago was a European invention.
It did and has since nearly a million Jews had their “blissful” experience interrupted by pogroms and expulsion from their native lands in ’48. Where do you plan on sending these people now, you Nazi fuck?
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 11:06 pm
Abbott needs to budget for large scale “care facilities” after his election. We could perhaps rename the school halls and lunch sheds sitting idle around the country. I’m not sure what use the bike racks will be, but the leftover roof insualtion will dull the screams.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 11:07 pm
Tell that piece of stupidity to the grave of George Lincoln Rockwell among others.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 11:07 pm
There were pro-nazi organisations all over the Middle East in the 30s and 40s, and effectively there still are. The official position of the government of Iran is that the Holocaust never happened. The constitution of Hamas says that they’ll do it properly next time.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 11:10 pm
No IT, that is a totalitarian solution. I propose instead that we point our fingers at them and go “ha, ha!”
much more fun.
entropy
13 Apr 12 at 11:11 pm
Ahahahaha.
What have I been saying, folks, about the left’s phony concern with anti-semitism?
In fact, they fully subscribe to anti-semitism of this David Duke variety but will play at pro-semitism in order to indulge in anti-Catholicism.
Being a lefty is to be perpetually imprisoned in a murine maze of competing hatreds with no gated escape to reality.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 11:13 pm
Uh-huh.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 11:15 pm
Prince Harry is closer to the Nazis than Iran will ever be.
Israel is a European invention with a precise historical birthday and birthplace and no historian would disagree with that fact.
Samson Agonistes
13 Apr 12 at 11:16 pm
“they fully subscribe to anti-semitism of this David Duke variety but will play at pro-semitism in order to indulge in anti-Catholicism”
Aw, a persecution complex. So cute.
Say, howsabout nobody persecutes anybody?
Maybe I’m just a hippy.
FDB
13 Apr 12 at 11:19 pm
I think Bird’s tranny may be back.
Fisky
13 Apr 12 at 11:19 pm
Cl might be a tad sensitive to criticism of the cattle ticks, FDB, but in this case his accusation regarding the left and their endless ability to tie themselves up in logic loops is pretty spot on.
entropy
13 Apr 12 at 11:25 pm
Splatacrobat
13 Apr 12 at 11:25 pm
The term ‘nazi’ is purely germanic.
It is derived from the name of the fucking party, FFS – the NSDAP, hence my bolding the relevant characters in the comment above.
There are pathetic imitators and if they ain’t german, they ain’t nazis.
Give it away, you appalling ignoramus.
P.S. Fisky, you haven’t made the same stupid claims as the moron I’m having a go at. ‘pro nazi’ was the correct term to use, as you’ve done.
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:26 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTT1qUswYL0
Splatacrobat
13 Apr 12 at 11:26 pm
The Roman Catholic Church just does not seem capable of moving on from this institutionalised sexual pathology, which traumatises so many of the flock. This time it’s Melbourne.
Police to pass ‘abuse’ death details to coroner
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-to-pass-abuse-death-details-to-coroner-20120413-1wxz2.html#ixzz1rvVBCxhm
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 11:26 pm
Pell was not asked about the Holocaust. He was asked (absurdly) why God doesn’t intervene in our affairs, as in days of old (examples given by Jones were the Holocaust, genocide and famine).
Pell answered by first asserting that the survival of the Jews could be thought of as Godly intervention; and second by pointing out that the punitive smoting of the Germans could also be seen as God’s intervention.
So we have a clear lie being wheeled out as a distraction to assuage the left’s embarrassment about Sheik Dick being beaten fair and square by the Cardinal.
But sorry, it won’t work.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 11:28 pm
I hate Illinois nazis…
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:28 pm
Don’t be a dick Patton. A kiddy is in far more danger from a swim coach or parent than a priest.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 11:28 pm
IT
Feel free to link the next news item that is relevant.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 11:29 pm
I am trying to work out what the victorious debating point that the modern state of Israel was founded after WW11 is all about.
Jews lived in Canaan for [probably] thousands of years. They lived in the ancient state of Israel for over a thousand years. They lived in Judea for five hundred years. Those that weren’t killed by, or fled from, the romans lived in the middle east for 1500 years. And they have lived in modern Israel for 60 years.
What is the point again?
entropy
13 Apr 12 at 11:31 pm
Just doing their worst, CL.
FFS, what’s with all this unrepentant modern day hysteria about teh Jooooos?!?!?!
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:32 pm
Not even a tad.
I simply correct what isn’t true.
I delight in people’s near fanatical interest in Catholicism. As Catholic convert Oscar Wilde famously said: “It’s better to be talked about than not to be talked about at all.”
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 11:33 pm
The ‘point’ is that no one talks about the mass expulsion/exodus of Jews across the whole of the middle east and north africa post WWII – lands they’d lived in for millenia.
What about their ‘Right of Return’?
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:36 pm
Okay: Here.
That sort of evil doesn’t have a team.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 11:36 pm
Not on sale items or bathing suits, sir.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 11:38 pm
FFS, pete, you should give it away as well.
Dredging this topic up benefits no one.
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:39 pm
I am just loving this binary that has been set up of Catholic versus ‘the Left”. As though Catholicism = liberalism. Now, back in the real world, we know that liberalism developed against the Roman Catholic Church. Except, liberalism teaches tolerance toward the Roman Catholic.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 11:39 pm
: D
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:41 pm
Rabz
Did you read? It is breaking news right now in Victoria. The POLICE brought it up. And you’re right it does nobody any good at all. So, WHY do they keep on doing it? But please show some compassion for all these people who suicided.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 11:42 pm
aaarrrggghhhh!!!!!
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:42 pm
Like my schoolboy peers and the brothers who suicided?
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:43 pm
It has actually taken steps to ameliorate the problem, Peter. Not least by screening out homosexuals from the clergy. They were, after all, responsible for about 90 percent of cases. But there is no more sexual abuse in the Catholic Church than in the other churches. And, of course, atheist state institutions have the worst record of abuse of all.
I hope you’re buying canned fail™ in bulk, Pete.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 11:43 pm
Thanks pete – I’ve now jumped certain marine predators…
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:46 pm
It also goes a lot of the way in explaining why so many Roman Catholics are angry at God. The more Pharisee-like the Roman Catholic, the less likely s/he is to confront God directly, and more likely s/he is to suffer from a paranoid sense of persecution from all corners.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 11:46 pm
Yep, that’s worked out well, hasn’t it?
Rabz
13 Apr 12 at 11:48 pm
Rabz, that’s cool. We all need a little jumping now and again.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 11:49 pm
LOL.
We don’t actually need anyone’s tolerance, Peter.
Hear liberal protestant Lord Macauley explain why:
Be tolerant or not tolerant.
It makes no difference to us.
C.L.
13 Apr 12 at 11:50 pm
Aah yes. Catholic = kiddie fiddler argument again.
Jack
13 Apr 12 at 11:51 pm
Rabz, sorry to hear that. I’ve known victims as well. Then again, I know people who are grateful to the ‘fathers’ and ‘sisters’ who introduced them to the ways of the flesh.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 11:52 pm
Approx 1.2 billion now.
How To Win Friends and Influence People is probably not a necessary purchase for the Vatican library.
Infidel Tiger
13 Apr 12 at 11:55 pm
Unfortunately Jack, it is once again blame the victim, and soothe the poor hurt and persecuted Roman Catholic.
Peter Patton
13 Apr 12 at 11:56 pm
Peter,
Blumstein and Schwartz “American Couples” survey found that gay men average sex three timesper week for the first two years of a relationship. After a decade it’s found that frequency existed for only around 10% of gay couples, 18% of straight couples and 1% of lesbian couples. I read that in a Bettina Arndt book but my kindle thing does not allow me to cut and paste. A link to one of the authors is on wiki if you want to get the relevant book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_Schwartz
Abu Chowdah
13 Apr 12 at 11:59 pm
Just to sum up…
Cardinal Pell easily beat the Atheist Taliban’s best and brightest, Sheik Dick Dawkins, in a debate staged earlier this week. Deliciously, it aired on the ABC.
In a very lame attempt to save a semblance of face, the bruised left (filled with what they coyly describe as “critics of the state of Israel”) has attempted to verbal the Cardinal so as to portray him as a Nazi-sympathising Jew hater.
But we have unrecoverably destroyed this hilarious essay in bumbling mendacity.
As the week ends, then, chalk it up as another disaster for the left; they also suffered the trauma of losing their iconic parliamentary leader today.
C.L.
14 Apr 12 at 12:00 am
Ah, to be sure, to be sure. Night, night brothers Mick and Paddy.
Peter Patton
14 Apr 12 at 12:01 am
The last luvvie at LP blew out the scented candles too.
Infidel Tiger
14 Apr 12 at 12:02 am
Well I’d only expect an apology from a gentleman and you can’t be a gentleman if you are a bugger.
Abu Chowdah
14 Apr 12 at 12:05 am
Einstein conceded that for those who deny supernatural reason (logos), it was a completely inexplicable “miracle” that random chemical accidents in the human brain do in fact lead us to valid conclusions (truth).
Dawkins is a fool. As King David wrote “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God” – in his mind he knows that the notion of nothing exploding and making everything is utter folly but he is deluded in his own heart, he is wilfully self-deceived refusing to even contemplate the reality staring him in the face.
Chris M
14 Apr 12 at 12:17 am
Er, logos is NOT “supernatural” reason. It is very, very human reasoning. Herodotus gives the clearest and most expansive exposition of the term.
Peter Patton
14 Apr 12 at 12:21 am
The reference is to Jesus Christ as logos – the word.
Joh 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word [logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. *He* was in the beginning with God. All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.”
Chris M
14 Apr 12 at 1:06 am
logos has quite a range of meanings in Classical and koine Greek, as well as in Greek and Christian thought. Herodotus used it in any number of ways – including in it’s simplest meaning of word or discourse. His expansion of the term is not necessarily the final or definitive word. It can mean human reasoning but it can also be used to refer to divine reason.
The logos - ergon relationship (sometimes complementary, sometimes antithetical, and with some ancient Greek philosophers more a reality vs delusive appearance contrast) is also quite important in Greek thought and will colour the meaning of logos.
CC
14 Apr 12 at 1:28 am
*its
CC
14 Apr 12 at 1:33 am
Peter
Perhaps you’re a little confused. I’ll help you out. The Diocese of Rome is also known as the “Roman Church” (as well as “Holy See”) but not the “Roman Catholic Church”. That St Peter (no, not you) established the Church during the Roman Empire (RE) is just historical fact. It was not established by any Emperor of the RE, nor was any Vicar of Christ an Emperor.
With me so far? Good.
Since you didn’t bother to answer, let me explain it to you.
“Roman Catholic” was a derogatory qualification first used around 1580, in England, by those nasty Protestants who believed they were the True Catholic religion, not those reprobates in Rome. And nothing to do with the RE.
Now given that you say you are a font of historical knowledge on all things “Roman” Catholic and that you hate the Catholic Church…well it was no leap of the imagination to see that you continually use “Roman” Catholic as a less than favourable term.
Gab
14 Apr 12 at 1:37 am
Gee, sdfc, you mean the Pope lives in Rome?! When did he move there?!!
Gab
14 Apr 12 at 1:37 am
No, the left fully realises that the good Cardinal has a few traditional misunderstandings percolating around his meandering intellect but that …
he neither sympathises with Nazis nor hates Jews. His problem is that he simply can’t open his mouth without sticking his foot in it.
Samson Agonistes
14 Apr 12 at 1:47 am
Samson, it is not “opening your mouth to stick your foot in it” when you are being lied about. Even less so when you are clearly being lied about as punishment for not losing when you were meant to.
wreckage
14 Apr 12 at 1:54 am
God intervened by saving the Jews from the ‘Final Solution’
FMD he was a bit late wasn’t he!?
jupes
14 Apr 12 at 8:16 am
His Eminence torpedoed the HMS Dawkins. Last report: listing badly off South Head. Life boats deployed. Last message received: I was jet-lagged.
dover_beach
14 Apr 12 at 8:36 am
To focus on the original issue, the verbaling of Pell by the luvvie press, I think at the end of the day they are confusing ‘intellectual’ with ‘intelligence’.
entropy
14 Apr 12 at 9:11 am
“Cardinal Pell easily beat the Atheist Taliban’s best and brightest, Sheik Dick Dawkins, in a debate staged earlier this week.”
The fact that C.L. keeps saying this over and over proves that even he doesn’t actually believe it.
mike
14 Apr 12 at 10:59 am
CY wrote “You do know that Exodus is not an historical fact?”
Wrong CY, archaeological evidence exists. See here.
Sinimian
14 Apr 12 at 11:41 am
Yep. This error is so ingrained in academia that we light as well consider the two to be idiomatically identical, and that some people just can’t accept that intellect and pseudo-intellectual waffling are two different things.
wreckage
14 Apr 12 at 1:00 pm
I didn’t watch the debate as I find the smirking Tony Jones as bearable as the smirking Jonathon Holmes. What is it with the ABC?, all those smirkers.
From reading the transcript here, I think Cardinal Pell made a couple of errors (at least).
Firstly his reference to “the Jews” when he meant the Israelites, or the Hebrews. The term Jew has undergone changes over the years. It originally applied to the male line descendants of the Patriach Judah, the head of one of the 13 tribes of the Israelites.
Later, following the split of united Israel into two kingdoms (the House of Israel and the House of Judah), the term Jew came to apply to those who lived in the ancient kingdom of Judea, as Judah was the largest Tribe in that grouping. Today the term applies to the descendants of those people, who are still mainly descendants of Judah, together with the Levites, half Benjamin, and a smattering of 10-Israel, most of whom who went into the Assyrian captivity (plus gentile converts to Judaism).
Pell’s comment is frequently encountered though. Some even say that Abraham, the great grandfather of Judah, was a Jew, which is an impossibility.
The second glaring mistake Cardinal Pell made was to say that the Israelites were just shepherds and of no regional significance. This is plainly nonsence. When David took the thrown (he was a Jew, i.e., a descendant of Judah) his army destroyed all his neighbours who went to war against him. He defeated the troubling southerners (Amelikites etc.) then proceeded to destroy the armies of Babylon (Chaldeans), Syria (Aram), then defeated the Assyrians. King David had the most powerful army in the mid-east, and with the Canaanites in present day Lebanon, went on to form the regions major naval force also (the Hebrew / Canaanite “Phoenician” alliance).
These weren’t just shepherds sitting in the sun counting sheep, they were a major military power with a record of long distance naval expeditions.
I don’t want to sound too critical of Cardinal Pell though. He is one of the few Australian churchmen who will stand up and speak straight about Islam, so power to his arm I say.
Sinimian
14 Apr 12 at 1:10 pm
*** throne, not thrown
Sinimian
14 Apr 12 at 2:25 pm
CC
Yes, all that is true. Sorry, I did not mean that Herodotus’ treatment is definitive. I just think given how he integrates logos within his marvelous ethnography, he introduces us to the relationship between subjective knowledge/truth and universal knowledge/truth. The New Testament use of logos captures a lot of that. Unfortunately, the English translation to just ‘word’ misses a lot of that.
Peter Patton
14 Apr 12 at 3:02 pm
db
I take it you haven’t been hobnobbing/networking/celebrating at the Atheist’s Rave? Are you sure you’re not missing out on a wonderful opportunity? Apparently DOCTOR Leslie Cannold will give some reading or other. You do know she is an ETHICIST, don’t you? Oh, and it is important to address her as DOCTOR Cannold.
Peter Patton
14 Apr 12 at 3:08 pm
The Jewish press started complaining about Pell long before Fairfax picked it up,
Samson Agonistes
14 Apr 12 at 3:29 pm
The ABC invents a new country “Caldia”. Chaldea I think is what you wanted.
Bruce 13 Apr 12 at 11:05 am
oops – fixed. thanks.
Sinclair Davidson 13 Apr 12 at 11:13 am
Way to go, SD.
Graham
14 Apr 12 at 3:37 pm
Hurrah! That’s relevant!
wreckage
14 Apr 12 at 3:38 pm
Samson, as a supporter of a genocidal organisation, Hamas, you are not allowed to pretend to care about Jews, OK?
Fisky
14 Apr 12 at 3:41 pm
GEORGE PELL: … Normally you go to a busy person because you know they’ll do it and so for some extraordinary reason God chose the Jews. They weren’t intellectually the equal of either the Egyptians or the…
TONY JONES: Intellectually?
GEORGE PELL: Intellectually, morally…
Except that:
Nehemiah was governor of Judah, highly esteemed, well paid, influential position
Solomon a king, full of wisdom and great power and wealth
David a king, musician, and poet
Joseph was in charge of all of Egypt and saw Egypt prosper in times of famine
Abraham a wealthy trader with an extraordinary relationship with God.
Daniel selected by a king to teach the language of Babylonians. Chosen because Daniel was well informed, showed aptitude for every kind of learning, qualified to work in the king’s palace.
The list goes on…
[These individuals all feature much later in the story. Sinc]
pargo
14 Apr 12 at 3:46 pm
I take it you haven’t been hobnobbing/networking/celebrating at the Atheist’s Rave? Are you sure you’re not missing out on a wonderful opportunity?
PP, why go to it when it comes to you?
dover_beach
14 Apr 12 at 4:12 pm
Graham – I wish I could fix the ABC. I did fix the spelling of sheperds to shepherds. The ABC spelling is their problem.
Sinclair Davidson
14 Apr 12 at 4:17 pm
Even worse is Jones’ tone of voice – in equal parts insinuating, smarmy and slyly menacing.
As for Pell, I sense he wasn’t taking the thing at all that seriously. He had an air of amused detachment most of the time. Why bother taking people like Dawkins and Jones and their claques seriously by engaging in erudite pyrotechnics? Sing ‘em muck dressed up as debate as much as decency and duty demands and head for the door ASAP.
Viva
14 Apr 12 at 5:10 pm
MArkL
So the unbroken presence of Jews in Judea and Samaria for 3,500 years has nothing to do with Israel. Interesting. So the unbroken presence of Jews in Judea and Samaria for 3,500 years has nothing to do with Israel. Interesting.
What are you talking about you nutter. The comment that the Jews were most likely Canaanites means they had most likely lived there since antiquity. Therefore the Jewish claim to Israel has nothing to do with the Exodus. Pretty simple really.
The Exodus is not supported by archaeological evidence. It’s a story.
The comment that I am supporting the most recent conquerors suggests you are once again putting forward the notion that the super breeders from the Arabian Peninsula somehow replaced the indigenous population. That’s a farcical proposition.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 9:25 pm
SDFC
You’re an expert in ancient history now?
JC
14 Apr 12 at 9:30 pm
No I take my lead from people who are like Israel Finkelstein. How about you?
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 9:35 pm
sdfc
Now, that’s one Fink I like. I’ve got one of his book here.
Peter Patton
14 Apr 12 at 9:37 pm
What? Who is Israel Finkelstein, SDFC?
I don’t give much of toss either way. I have a hard time believing such momentous stories develop out of thin air and also have a hard time believing that anyone who tries to disprove such stories isn’t really just practicing voodoo history.
JC
14 Apr 12 at 9:40 pm
SDFC:
WTF are you on about???
Mk50 of Brisbane
14 Apr 12 at 9:42 pm
JC
Finkelstein is professor of Achaeology at Tel Aviv uni.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 9:42 pm
Oh ffs, this is really getting silly now. It’s almost a form of junk science.
There can be no reasonable of such a story that could possibly be validated through archaeological digs.
JC
14 Apr 12 at 9:44 pm
So he goes around, digs up a tiny part of a desert and its environs that have been traversed since the dawn of human time and declares the story is untrue.
And you consider this to be definitive.
Hey SDFC, Global temps are going to rise 20 degs over the next century, but you already believe that to be the case.
JC
14 Apr 12 at 9:47 pm
oops..
…there can be way for…
JC
14 Apr 12 at 9:48 pm
It would be identifiable if the bible story was true. No records, no archaeological evidence yet you beleive it. Why?
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 9:49 pm
The Jewish media made it a story because the community were offended, so the story is not some sort of ABC/Fairfax media beat up, as suggested here.
Samson Agonistes
14 Apr 12 at 9:51 pm
I beleive that AGW is likely true because of what science tells us about how the earth heats.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 9:51 pm
You really have difficulty with comprehension SDFC. I said I couldn’t give a shit if were true or not.
However I think it would be almost impossible to determine if the story was unverifiable through digging up tiny pieces of a desert.
What I do think is stories like that do sometimes a kernel of truth to them.. maybe. But we can never really prove it though a dig.
JC
14 Apr 12 at 9:53 pm
Instead, you seem to support the most recent but one waves of foreign conquerors
Don’t waste my time Mark. If you are going to comment at least stick to what you say.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 9:54 pm
Bobster, you’re an avid supporter of Hamas, so you really have no reason to be involved in this discussion. Go away. Shoo.
JC
14 Apr 12 at 9:55 pm
Sorry, should have been italics on the first sentence.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 9:55 pm
SO your contribution JC is “I don’t know”. Why bother commenting then?
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 9:56 pm
The major evidence of Semetic peoples in Egypt is as counquerors not as slaves.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 9:58 pm
Stop playing these games, SFDC as they don’t work.
You started off with this crap.
Then this nonsense.
When I then nicely explain to you that digs would not able to prove of disprove such a story I get this:
Lets say I’m intolerant to bullshit.
There’s a great deal of politics being played out in Israel between Jews themselves over the issue of their historical roots. Books such as this for instance give anti-Israelis the air to breathe such as people like you and Hamas supporting/loving Bobster. I might add there are more than a few of these in Israel too.
JC
14 Apr 12 at 10:06 pm
So a few thousand goat herders took over mighty Egypt, which was the super power of the time?
lol
JC
14 Apr 12 at 10:07 pm
How can you post such a long comment and say absolutely nothing?
Let me be clear, a leading researcher in the field says there is no evidence. Come back with something substantial or STFU time waster.
Your last comment makes you look like an idiot.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 10:11 pm
He looks like an idiot because he is one.
Samson Agonistes
14 Apr 12 at 10:13 pm
Really? Two seconds of googling produced this.
http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/grounds.htm
He says he doesn’t know, you idiot. This sort of stuff can never be definitive and you’re taking it as virtual Gospel thereby giving anti-Semites and Hamas lover like Bob here more oxygen.
JC
14 Apr 12 at 10:20 pm
If Finkelstein is ready to concede the existence of David and Solomon
David and Solomon aren’t in the Exodus story. You’re getting dumber. If that’s possible.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 10:22 pm
He can’t be definitive because you can’t prove a negative. Fuck me.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 10:23 pm
If you’re feeling really cruel, bring up the historical Jesus. Captain Catholic and Gilligan will love it.
Peter Patton
14 Apr 12 at 10:25 pm
I actually think Jesus did live Peter.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 10:28 pm
I’m off. Carry on.
sdfc
14 Apr 12 at 10:28 pm
sdfc
You’re probably like most of us, and have never really looked at the evidence objectively. Whether he existed is not the same thing as the historical Jesus.
Peter Patton
14 Apr 12 at 10:32 pm
Shouldn’t you be reciting that in the fucking mirror to yourself then, SDFC.
Lets go back to the tape.
True
My argument all along is that it is impossible to disprove as it’s a story and archeological digs aren’t enough to prove or disprove it.
This has nothing to do with proving a negative, you dill. Proving a negative would mean like I was asking you to prove the existence of Santa Claus.
JC
14 Apr 12 at 10:35 pm
SDFC, bubble head,
You’re getting all confused in a form of inductive reasoning.
It’s like saying, we have no evidence of Bigfoot as there’s no definitive evidence of Bigfoot’s existence. That doesn’t in itself prove it either way.
You’re basically offering the same inductive reasoning with this. Because the professor said he has not found evidence to prove story to be accurate then it must be inaccurate. If fact it doesn’t prove anything much.
Try a little harder next time and you may avoid the pitfalls of entering a vortex of stupidity while giving oxygen of old bigots like Bobster.
Additionally it would give you a chance to escape the stupidity of Keynesian economics and MMT crap like cash flow.
JC
14 Apr 12 at 10:52 pm
For latecomers:
Cardinal Pell easily beat the Atheist Taliban’s best and brightest, Sheik Dick Dawkins, in a debate staged earlier this week. Deliciously, it aired on the ABC.
In a very lame attempt to save a semblance of face, the bruised left has attempted to verbal the Cardinal so as to portray him as a Nazi-sympathising Jew hater.
But we have unrecoverably destroyed this hilarious essay in bumbling mendacity. The cause wasn’t helped by mature age plonker, Peter, who likes to tell us he’s presently writing a “paper.”
As the week ends, then, chalk it up as another disaster for the left; a mini version, if you will, of John Paul II humiliating the USSR.
C.L.
14 Apr 12 at 10:58 pm
Wow, with Ricky’s Girl it’s always just dicks or bums, isn’t it? Is Captain Catholic two-timing on Ricky with Sheik Dawkins now? So many unsheathed ‘dicks’, so little time, eh Captain?
Peter Patton
14 Apr 12 at 11:02 pm
I’d love to hang with you, do a couple of Haily Marys, polish the rosary, and such. But I’m off for a night of partying – finished the paper, you see Captain. Sweet dreams of Ricky.
Peter Patton
14 Apr 12 at 11:05 pm
The Jewish community were offended and the issue got taken up in the Jewish press and from there to the mainstream press.
If George Pell can’t open his mouth without offending the Jewish community then maybe he has a problem, so take some responsibility for your side’s actions.
Samson Agonistes
14 Apr 12 at 11:12 pm
Bob:
Where is the evidence he’s offended the Jewish Community?
Where is the evidence say that he would offend equally in the same way you have by supporting Hamas?
JC
14 Apr 12 at 11:17 pm
Because it’s nearly sunday morning, and I’ve finally, finally read the whole thread, there’s not a lot for me to say right now, but I’m with CL.
Enjoy – the words are there for you to read along.
nilk
14 Apr 12 at 11:17 pm
And accepted his apology. Now, perhaps you could get your white nose out of minding their business?
wreckage
14 Apr 12 at 11:26 pm
SDLC said –
“The Exodus is not supported by archaeological evidence. It’s a story.”
Wrong SDLC, see my response to Cy this morning at 11:41, reposted HERE.
I have nothing but great admiration for the Jews, imagine putting up with this crap for thousands of years. It would make my head explode.
Sinimian
14 Apr 12 at 11:48 pm