Yet another article saying we should copy our Scandinavian friends on some of other public policy.
The Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund which was started in 1990 is now worth $US600 billion. Its income comes from taxes on oil companies, exploration licence fees, and dividends from the state-owned Statoil. Norway is thinking of future generations.
Sounds like they’ve got lots of money. Yet the value of Australian Superannuation assets is $1.4 trillion. Depending a vagaries of the exchange rate that is double the amount Norway has.
The article also carries on about the pension.
We can expect another one million boomers to draw on the age or disability pension over the next 20 years.
The so called ‘generation Y’ and those born after them will be taxed to build infrastructure projects and support the ageing boomers while saving for a home and paying off HECS debt. Where’s the fairness in that?
Damn welfare system – taking from the young and healthy and giving to the old and sick. Like nobody thought that would ever happen. I have little sympathy here; this is not a bug, this is a design feature so I don’t understand why people who generally support the welfare state are now complaining about it being ‘unfair’.
Remember that the Australian pension is flat and means tested. How does the Norwegian pension work?
All Norwegians citizens are entitled to get a state pension from the age of 67 in accordance with the Norwegian National Insurance Act (Folketrygdloven). The state pension is paid in full to Norwegian citizens who have lived in Norway for at least 40 years after the age of 16 and in lesser amounts to Norwegian citizens who have lived less time in the country (see Minimal state pension (Minstepensjon)).
The State Pension is calculated according to what the individual has previously earned from ages 16 to 67. The calculation is made by The Norwegian Labour and Welfare Administration (NAV).
The financing of the state pensions is based on a “Pay as you go” system. This means that today’s work force is making the payments for the current retirees. The demographic structure in Norway suggests that in the future there will gradually be significantly fewer persons working in proportion to each retired pensioner.
Not means tested and not a flat rate.
Oh dear. Looks like those Norwegian Gen Ys are worse off than their Australian counterparts. They have half the money in their fund than Australians have in superannuation and Norwegians have a more generous pension scheme. So I’m not sure what it is we should learn from Norway.
As most of our current crop of time-wasting bandwidth thieving full-time trolls will demonstrate day in and day out, it’s not the facts that matter, Sinc, it’s the vibe. Most ethnicities have “culture”, while we Australians have a blank canvas. Scandinavians are, according to the vibe, so clever they can outperform us in all sorts of technical pursuits, social organisation and and politically correct stances. Pity about that immigrant problem they have accumulated, courtesy of open borders in the EU.
If they have oil, it’s because they drilled for it in the oceans, if they have nuclear power, it’s because they didn’t knuckle under to the fright lobby (until Germany recently), and if they have hydro, it’s because it happened before Green PC did away with it as a possibility.
If they have a sovereign fund of 600 billion but no 1.4 trillion super smackeroos, tough luck.
blogstrop
1 Aug 12 at 10:59 am
$600 billion versus $1.4 trillion ought to be put in the context of population size.
TerjeP
1 Aug 12 at 11:04 am
They have less than a quarter of Australia’s population, so per capita they have twice as much money in their fund. They also have private pension plans with tax advantages (bit like our super) which you haven’t counted here so I’m not sure you’re comparing apples with apples.
Isn’t the Australian equivalent of a sovereign wealth fund the Future Fund that Costello setup?
I don’t disagree that government pensions should be means tested – unless there are explicit contributions like I think happens with the US social security system.
Chris
1 Aug 12 at 11:10 am
All comparisons with Norway are useless until you look at the actual numbers.
Norway has a population roughly equal to that of Greater Sydney.
Norway has a GDP double that of NSW and covers less than half the same amount of land.
Basically it’s a small set of people with a massive oil + gas well sitting just offshore – one they are not afraid to use. And they’re rich because of it. And they like to spend their money on looking after the population.
The only way you can have a semi-successful semi-socialist country is under these conditions:
a) small population
b) closed borders (Norway is not part of the EU)
c) large amounts of resources leading to high government income, but these must be inexhaustible
d) benign leaders who aren’t interesting in purging the population of dissidents
Norway is about the only example in the world that nearly gets there, although their (c) is a worry for the future.
Saudi Arabia comes close, except for (d).
I find it amazing that socialists love to hold up Norway as a shining light of socialism, and at the same time deplore the use of oil + gas. Because if you managed to achieve the green/left dream, the socialist experiment in Norway would collapse as their revenue and wealth base was taken away.
I like Norway, and I like Norwegians. They stick two fingers up to the EU and the UN. Their native women are undoubtedly the best looking around. They catch and eat whales. It’s a horrendously expensive place though.
brc
1 Aug 12 at 11:12 am
Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking about.
m0nty
1 Aug 12 at 11:16 am
What is it with lefties and Europe’s lesbian belt?
C.L.
1 Aug 12 at 11:19 am
Eating fermented fish?
ar
1 Aug 12 at 11:20 am
How much of our 1.4 trillion is due to the foresight of Keatings compulsory superannuation, which dot was bleating about yesterday?
SteveC
1 Aug 12 at 11:39 am
Ours? Like you think my savings are yours too? Fuck off SteveC.
Keating stole money from you, you dumb fuck and don’t even realize it. Every worker paid into the pension system which we were supposed to get on retirement. He simply ended that and kept the money paid in by those who were not going to get the pension under the new means test rules.
Stop the sneering, you moron. go look after kimberly, your sex doll.
JC
1 Aug 12 at 11:43 am
Keating the gutless year 10 dropout never moved on the country’s biggest and ballsiest micro-economic reform: the waterfront. That held the country back a decade and cost billions.
C.L.
1 Aug 12 at 11:50 am
In addition to per capita considerations source of funds needs to be considered. A big chunk of Australian super made up of member contributions. The Norwegian sovereign fund isn’t. Does later reference to norways ‘pay as you go’ pension system mean there is another pool of savings to add to norway’s sovereign fund?
Jack
1 Aug 12 at 11:57 am
HAHAHAHAHA!
Keating created a system where investments were taxed at 15%, returns were taxed at 15% and drawings were taxed at 15%.
Basically, Keating taxed the working poor on their savings at a higher rate than some of the middle class.
What a world class arsehole.
.
1 Aug 12 at 12:01 pm
Which pension system are you talking about?
SteveC
1 Aug 12 at 12:06 pm
Most households had a private pension plan before Keating “saved” us with a costly tax sink of a system which is too small to create real savings and has created an industry of carpetbaggers.
Keating was a hoax, and a world class arsehole.
.
1 Aug 12 at 12:08 pm
Yes, I still have one. How did Keating “keep the money paid”?
SteveC
1 Aug 12 at 12:09 pm
A very good analysis I think, BRC. Yes, Norway is really expensive to travel and live in (we were there for a short while in 2010) and quite frankly it’s a bit dull and there is not much to do, so they tend still to go a bit Viking on the hooch when they save up a month’s pay to enjoy a binge. They are proud of their peasant fishing economy, their ‘folk’ schools, their sod-hut heritage with the girls decked out in aprons, and the fact that in the C9th they went on a bloodlust and booty tour of Europe and the UK, although they do stress the boatbuilding skills over the Vik’s other early entrepreneurial activities. (There is a bit of reinterprettion of Viking history going on, founders of Russia, travellers to the East etc, perhaps justifiably). They have an old an cohesive culture and there is much to admire in their way of life, although as you suggest, it is the life of a rich country well-endowed and spending as they wish.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
1 Aug 12 at 12:12 pm
A stupid left wing troll won’t even admit the unfairness and capriciousness of taxing compulsory savings on entry, investment and exit at 15%.
.
1 Aug 12 at 12:20 pm
I’ve always want to know why the people who grand stand about Japanese whaling turn a blind eye to very much alive Norwegian whaling industry.
Strange how Green groups grandstand when it comes to asians yet are avoiding “polarising the debate” in the social welfare nirvana that is Norway.
Can any guess why that may be so?
Token
1 Aug 12 at 12:30 pm
I think we are talking about two different things. It was JC’s comment above that I can’t understand. Yes I’m paying 15% tax on my super earnings, but that’s still better than 45%. I don’t know what happens if your marginal rate is less than 15%. It would be pretty stupid if you paid a tax penalty.
SteveC
1 Aug 12 at 12:35 pm
No, that happened before hand, at much higher tax rates on savings.
Stop playing dumb.
.
1 Aug 12 at 12:37 pm
Apart from what you’re leading to, these guys won’t take any shit from greenpeace
Nanuestalker
1 Aug 12 at 12:48 pm
Foresight lol. The whole point of superannuation was to increase national saving, which, to date, it has failed to do. Superannuation is just corporate welfare for union funds, which is the whole reason it was set up anyway.
benson
1 Aug 12 at 1:54 pm
brc nails it with points a) to d) about the only way you can have a semi-successful semi-socialist country.
Not sure if Norway’s the same, but it also helps if you can ‘encourage’ poorer people, who would be the biggest drain on the welfare state, to go elsewhere.
The wonderful social democracy of Sweden pulled that trick with 19th and early 20th century mass emigration to the US.
Norway also likes its whaling and gives a big two-fingured salute to the likes of Greenpeace. If I get a chance, I’ll dig up a pic I took years ago in Oslo of some of the pro-whaling T-shirts for sale in the local markets.
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 2:20 pm
per capita figures aside, you can’t compare 1.4 tril of super with 600m of future fund.
Especially with some of Howards’ choice of fund reforms, super belongs to the individual, while Norways money belongs to the state. Yes it’s ‘held in trust for future generations’ but the govt will still decide how to spend it – they might decide to build a stack of useless wind farms or something.
At least with super the government is (so far) not allowed to touch it, and has to give it to you when you reach a certain age.
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 2:32 pm
@papa I could go you one better and show you a picture of me downing a whale sandwich in the Bergen fishmarket!
I should have bought one of those t-shirts, though. I’d love to see heads popping by wearing it to the local shopping centre.
Brunei is another country that nearly makes it as well. So far the leadership is benign towards the people, but it is essentially a socialist dictatorship with an omnipresent government. Running out of oil is a real worry for them as they literally have nothing else.
brc
1 Aug 12 at 2:35 pm
brc I wanted to try it when I was there, but it was in my Lonely Planet backpacking days and I basically couldn’t afford to eat in Norway.
I only survived by camping, and getting the free soup on the trains (which were free with my Interrail pass). I also caught lots of Arctic cod in the Lofoten islands and pigged out for a week or so before resorting to bread and free soup again. Beautiful country though, happy days.
another quiz for you – who are the only people in history who have ever gotten pure communism (i.e. Marx’s vision of a stateless, classless society) to actually work for a short while, albeit on a very small scale?
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 2:44 pm
Hunter-gatherers – though not all by any means.
Ronaldo
1 Aug 12 at 3:00 pm
kibbutzim ?
Gab
1 Aug 12 at 3:01 pm
I hate that the Scandi (Norway, Sweden, Denmark) countries are held up as some sort of social democratic workers paradise/far thinking big government garden of eden. Having done many deals with Scandi private equity firms I come away with the sense that the “Protestant work ethic” is strong there and that they are bigger capitalists than we are.
faust
1 Aug 12 at 3:31 pm
… and the ten poins goes to Gab.
Ironic that the Left reserve such hatred for the only people who have ever actually gotten their wet dream of a communist utopia to sort of work for a little while.
They should worship them and go on regular study tours to Israel
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 4:06 pm
Hunter gatherers don’t count, because they had no notion of capitalism / free markets to overthrow or simply move on from.
This was essential to Marx’s theory – unlike modern lefties I don’t believe he went in for this ‘noble savage’ BS.
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 4:08 pm
ten poins
Oh, so no 1975 Château Mouton Rothschild then.
Gab
1 Aug 12 at 4:09 pm
Je suis désolé Gab, I would have, but I’d already used up my duty free allowance on Bombay Sapphire coming back from France.
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 4:28 pm
The Kibbutzes all failed. I’m not sure if there are any left.
Infidel Tiger
1 Aug 12 at 4:29 pm
“In 2010, there were 270 kibbutzim in Israel. Their factories and farms account for 9% of Israel’s industrial output, worth US$8 billion, and 40% of its agricultural output, worth over $1.7 billion.[2]
Gab
1 Aug 12 at 4:31 pm
Are you sure there is. I recall the traditional kibbutz was closed down around 2005.
I think all of them now operate as proper businesses.
JC
1 Aug 12 at 4:33 pm
Yeah they all failed eventually, or became quasi-capitalist.
I think their undoing was that no-one wanted to do the crappy jobs as everyone was paid the same, so they either had to have differential pay scales or hire outsiders to get the real work done.
But the point is, they worked for a few decades without resorting to violence or coercion. It’s far, far closer than any murderous leftwing dictatorship (or any social democracy for that mantter) has ever gotten to their ‘ideal’
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 4:49 pm
Agree completely with everything that BRC said above, he summed it up pretty much perfectly. Living here now and just signed onto a local contract so I get some of that delicious pension fund at some stage too, although there is a private pension contribution as well which as mentioned previously, hasn’t been addressed here.
I should also note that during my recent contractual negotiations an O&G engineer here in Norway actually earns LESS money than their equivalent Perth based counterparts, link that with the fact that the cost of living here is astronomical and you can see how their nice little social experiment starts to fall down.
That said it is an awesome place to live, and at least I don’t have to join the hordes of other Aussies in London.
The biggest advantage the Norwegians get (in my opinion) is the 12 months maternity leave (with a minimum 3 months paternity leave). Plus education is free, no need for private schooling here, even the royal family send their kids to public schools! Raising kids here is actually ridiculously easy and cheap compared to back in Oz. People have kids here without giving much thought to it at all, there’s very little financial or social pressure.
Jeremiah
1 Aug 12 at 5:02 pm
Oh and whale meat is delicious. Very lean and tender, like the ultimate rump steak.
And don’t even get me started on the women…
Jeremiah
1 Aug 12 at 5:13 pm
which is probably why the cost of living is astronomical – it’s paid for by your taxes.
I note from Wikipedia that Norway’s fertility rate is 1.85, only slightly higher than Australia’s 1.79, so why isn’t it higher if people have kids ‘without giving much thought to it’?
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 5:14 pm
You’re right Papa one way or another it is paid for. The difference here though is that unlike in Oz you get an even spread of the demographic popping out babies. Unlike in Oz, career men and women here aren’t afraid of having many kids so its not as skewed towards ethnic minorities and low socio economic groups like back home.
The added benefit is that even those in the lower socio economic class can still give their kids a good education and hopefully break the cycle.
Jeremiah
1 Aug 12 at 5:34 pm
so why’s the fertility rate so low – they should be pumping them out. is it the cost of living?
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 5:35 pm
Its the same in every western country, people prefer to have fun through leasure activities rather than the “joys” of raising kids.
Its a first world issue. When you live hand to mouth all you have in life is your family, but when you can enjoy ski trips in France, seaside vacations in Spain etc kids become a laughable alternative.
Jeremiah
1 Aug 12 at 5:39 pm
The reason fertility rates are falling is that wealthy people have become obsessed with leisure time and cocaine. Having kids stops you enjoying both.
Infidel Tiger
1 Aug 12 at 5:43 pm
“so why’s the fertility rate so low – they should be pumping them out. is it the cost of living?”
Historically, fertility drops as women start having the choice to get pregnant or not, as women enter the workforce, as the return on education increases, and as welfare replaces children as the means of surviving after you’re too old to work. Cost of living, not so much.
Jarrah
1 Aug 12 at 5:47 pm
I think the tide is turning and that once again having kids is now a measure of how wealthy you are. A lot of the well to do types I know seem to be banging them out at a rate rural Indian farm workers would be proud of.
Infidel Tiger
1 Aug 12 at 5:51 pm
Yeah I’m starting to see that too. Its almost like a sign of how awesome you are if you can raise a large family of well developed kids and still stay fit, have a social life AND provide for the family.
Kinda of a sign of how far society has fallen that this is now in vogue though…
Jeremiah
1 Aug 12 at 6:10 pm
I should also mention here that the Unions are running amok at the moment. Some of the Statoil rig workers actually stopped production recently as part of their industrial action. There was a resulting spike in the oil price on global markets.
Apparently they are the worlds best paid oil workers and they have a two weeks on four weeks off roster…
Security guards also went on strike a month of so ago. Caused chaos at the airport.
So despite the relatively even playing field here, people still find something to bitch about. The usual gripe is the cost of living, which is only high because of the ridiculously high wages paid to people in service industries, high import tariffs, farming subsidies etc. And so the cycle continues.
Jeremiah
1 Aug 12 at 6:31 pm
Here you go…
Pro-whaling t-shirts in Olso
papachango
1 Aug 12 at 7:17 pm
Because the old “just vote liberal anyway” (according to the real Julia inside the cabinet room).
Keith
1 Aug 12 at 7:38 pm
LOL @ Grillpeace!!!
Jeremiah
1 Aug 12 at 8:02 pm
IT the reason the fertility rate is creeping up in higher socio economic groups is because truly well off people usually only have one income.
In my experience, all that ‘women want to work’ stuff tends to be going back to the ‘hey, being a housewife and juggling kids, coffee and gym sounds a lot better than putting in 40 hours in some office box, as long as hubby can earn the bucks’. In fact, the discerning new mum does all of the above and has a little side microbusiness or tertiary studies on the go as well.
In years to come, I suspect the working class will be denoted by those with kids in childcare and two parents working, rather than anything else.
brc
1 Aug 12 at 8:09 pm
@papa very droll. I do remember the Norwegians being very anti-Greenpeace and anti-EU, which is why it’s so funny when lefties turn around and hold them up not only as the perfect socialist state, but also when they hold them up as ‘green’ because of all their hydro.
brc
1 Aug 12 at 8:11 pm
Attempts to do away with biological parenting ties failed dismally very early on in the life of Kibbutzim even when other communal aspects worked well. A lot of parents and kids were traumatised by this and changes were quickly made.
Similarly, women experience strong biological impulses and attachments to staying with their kids in the early years of childrearing. It not all just the ease of coffe and gym. You are right BRC that economic choices about this will start to have a demonstrable socio-demographic effect.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
1 Aug 12 at 10:16 pm
In my short term assignment in Stavanger, I noticed how astronomically high the cost of living was. With that said, the Norgies were at the time some of the highest paid people in the world (probably still are) and they enjoyed an excellent quality of life. Most of them appear to realise that this all needs to be paid for somehow and have chosen the high taxation path. A lot of them seem to buy into the concept. I knew a few who moved elsewhere and said they’d never go back due to the taxes though. BRC absolutely nails it above about what is required to have that kind of society. I doubt it will ever happen here.
Oh and the women are smokin’ hot there and don’t mind getting their gear off in the summer. There is a lot to be said for that.
tbh
1 Aug 12 at 11:40 pm
I never wanted kids. Dead set against it. I was talked into one, then another. I was begged to have the second. I love my kids but although I spent time with them and stuff when they were young, I found them annoying.
Now they are older I wish we had more. I reckon 5 kids would have been great as you get to see how your genes can turn out. As they’re older they’re much more fun to be around.
JC
1 Aug 12 at 11:46 pm