The use of a child to hold a sign which he cannot understand is a sad reflection on his parents.
I support free speech – if the parent of this child thinks that those who insult Allah should be killed – let her say so and preferably explain why this attitude is consistent with living in a liberal democracy. Of course she should then be arrested for inciting violence – or worse (ie actually commit such a murder) – and deported (if not living validly in Australia) or thrown into jail.
This is where proponents of restricting free speech are being disingenuous. They try to obfuscate by saying that we need to restrict free speech because people might offend others and then bring in examples not dissimilar to the placard above. Yet the action of inciting violence, or committing murder are well established crimes.
We do not need to restrict free speech – we just need to enforce laws and not turn a blind eye to the extreme behaviour of some segments in our community.
She gets an A for spelling.
Gab
17 Sep 12 at 4:38 pm
Doubtless typed on one of Kevin Rudd’s free skool compewders.
Is this the edukayshun revalushun that moolia is always banging on about?
Pickles
17 Sep 12 at 4:43 pm
I think she should be applauded for her contribution, not persecuted.
Can you think of a more eloquent argument against the religion of
retardspeace?lotocoti
17 Sep 12 at 4:53 pm
This placard demonstrates two sorts of crime. A crime calling for murderous killing is one of them. A crime against a small child who is being indoctrinated and used for murderous purposes is the other.
Charges should be laid in both cases.
That such a photograph can be taken in Sydney, Australia in September 2012 is an indictment of our unwarranted tolerance of such criminality and its associated violence. On Blair’s thread when I said this, someone has commented that the photo is going viral internationally. Good. Show them up for the hideous Islamofascists that they are. We and all other Western countries should re-think our welcome and ensure we carefully select migrants who will assimilate.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
17 Sep 12 at 4:54 pm
Hear, hear.
Except for the bashing of the cops & smashing of police cars, the day was a perfect example of why we should not shut up the racist, the bigotted & the throwbacks to the dark ages.
Let them hang themelves with their own words & actions.
Token
17 Sep 12 at 4:58 pm
Great post.
This mini insurrection, part of the ongoing insurrection by muslim people in the West and Australia, raises many crucial points about how an individual rights based democracy should provide latitude to its citizenry to express those rights.
The most obvious is the distinction between the essential freedom to chose your own religion and the totally fallacious ‘right’, which is conflated with the primary right, to be free of criticism for chosing whatever form of religion you have choosen.
No religion should be exempt from criticism, ridicule and lack of respect.
The Catholic church demonstrates this. At a time when Australian society was given far less right and latitude to question the religious structures a massive offence against the community was being perpetrated.
That offence does not mean that all catholics should be forced to relinquish their choice of religion but they should be prepared to wear and share the ignonimy which the leaders of their religious choice are now justifiably suffering.
The case of Islam is much worse. Its exponents have committed crimes against the world community, including Australia, which dwarf the Catholic attrocities; the crimes committed in the name of Islam have been monstrous.
Given this for the people who have choosen Islam to complain and riot violently against criticism of their faith in any form is a massive hypocrisy and denial of and threat to the democratic structure.
The craven response by our political leaders is Chamberlain like in its perfidy; they are betraying the society they have been elected to represent and preserve. O’Farrell’s capitulation was worse than the weasel words of Gillard and other left commentators [incidentally has anyone seen a comment from that fart on legs, Milne, or any green?] simply because he should philosphically know better.
Australia’s leaders, with few exceptions do not respect this great nation or value its values.
cohenite
17 Sep 12 at 4:58 pm
“Insurrection”, sheesh, get a grip.
Pedro
17 Sep 12 at 5:02 pm
Fuck you.
cohenite
17 Sep 12 at 5:07 pm
Well said, cohenite. Both comments.
Gab
17 Sep 12 at 5:16 pm
I wonder if the young mum there was forced to put that disgusting placard in her child’s hands. Sad to think of a young woman with two little ones forced into that situation, and now the picture of her child is around the Internet everywhere. Perhaps she’s proud though, who can tell.
candy
17 Sep 12 at 5:19 pm
Good point, and I agree.
There’s a wider issue here, and it’s a point where I disagree with the conservatives (but disagree even more strongly with the Left).
One thing these pricks are very good at is using our Western classical liberalism against us – they’ll make use of it where they can (demanding the right to hold jihadist rallies or whatever), then seek exceptions to it (trying to shut down critics like Mark Steyn or Geert Wilders).
They’ll exploit the useful idiots of the Left to support their ’cause’, knowing full well if they got control most of the trendy left-wing stuff (gay rights, drug law reform, multiculturalism) would be unceremoniously chucked out the window.
The Left seem to be in lala land and wilfully ignorant of this – labouring under the fantasy that if we just stop being so waaacist, and sit down with cups of tea and halal biscuits, we’ll all get along like brothers.
It’s bullshit and we know it – so forget the Left for a sec.
Some on the conservative right propose that we give up some (or a lot) of our liberalism to fight this threat. Restricting Muslim immigration, more and more invasive anti-terror laws, banning veils, even restricting free speech. They argue that Western culture has become slack and weak, and debauched (mirroring the Islamists’ own arguments), and that we will surely be beaten by an ‘enemy’ with a much stronger culture and moral conviction. I almost detect a slight admiration for the strength of Islamic culture (e.g. check Steyn’s article ‘the future belongs to Islam)
Nope, becoming like them is not the way to fight them. Classical liberalism is not dead yet. Just get rid of the PC crap and enforce existing laws.
papachango
17 Sep 12 at 5:20 pm
Your ALPBC: Non-Australian protesters face deportation if charged
Yeah, right…
Rabz
17 Sep 12 at 5:21 pm
What chance I get to stand at Lakemba with a sign saying “behead all who fail to insult the false prophet”
Now I understand why the Coptic Egyptian chap made his little movie clip.
WhaleHunt Fun
17 Sep 12 at 5:24 pm
What chance I get to stand at Lakemba
If you look like a ‘skip’ you’ll get abused, sign or no sign.
Gab
17 Sep 12 at 5:27 pm
Cloud cuckoo land fantasy, I’m afraid. The fundamental shifts in attitude required to meet this scourge head on and defeat its growing influence cannot be made under the current conditions.
I fear it will literally require a 9/11 type outrage here to get people up off their arses and actively resisting.
The agenda of that disgusting mediaeval death cult is unchanged since the Seventh Century.
These morons will never cease and desist until we grow a spine, stand up and fight back.
Rabz
17 Sep 12 at 5:29 pm
The tragedy is that those who seek to restrict free speech in the name of creating a kinder, more sensitive world don’t appear to understand that this will inevitably be followed by even more Draconian restrictions when it turns out that heretical thinking can’t be stamped out.
The obvious alternative; strong legal protections against actual acts or incitements to actual acts of violence and an equally strong right to express publicly any view, as a much less damaging option, doesn’t seem to get much consideration at all.
Just as human beings seem to have an innate sense of the importance of individual liberty, there is an equally (don’t know if it’s innate or learned) tendency to impose ta collective notion of what constitutes “better” via subjugation and force.
Totalitarians throughout history always justified restrictions on individual human rights as necessary for the greater good and ended up doing terrible harm as a result. I’m appalled that my twin teenagers discussing their year 11 history assignments with me, don’t seem to really understand the catastrophe that all flavours of totalitarianism visited on the 20th century.
The march through the institutions has certainly been a great success.
It is really worrying that Gonski’s call for more money hasn’t been genuinely analysed by the mainstream media who should surely be asking why we are not getting better value for we currently pay rather than simply paying more for no guarantee of anything better?
Jim Toohey
17 Sep 12 at 5:33 pm
The nasties are not calling for an end to islamic immigration. They want Islamic Emigration. All a bit extreme but not an unecpected result. Some sort of expulsion for people on Visas who took part in the violenve. Moreover there is something in the oath of allegianve sworn by prople taking up citizenship about obeying the laws. There is plenty of scope for expulsion if the argument is eon ny nasty people.
WhaleHunt Fun
17 Sep 12 at 5:33 pm
“strength of Islamic culture” – Papa most younger generation male Muslims are uneducated, unemployable resentful thugs. Sadly they are quite like a lot of country town aboriginals (minus the grog). I’d disagree entirely with Mark Steyn – they are history’s losers.
Bill
17 Sep 12 at 5:34 pm
I fear it will literally require a 9/11 type outrage here to get people up off their arses and actively resisting.
Nah, the leftists types will just be like Obama even if that happened here. They’ll apologise for having raised the ire of Islamists, agree we deserved it and then physically bow down begging for forgiveness.
Gab
17 Sep 12 at 5:35 pm
true – but someone at the top is channelling all that resentment quite effectively. I think that was what Steyn et al is getting at.
papachango
17 Sep 12 at 5:45 pm
Some elements of it certainly are, and unfortuately they are the elements that seem to have a fair bit of control within the religion. But we’ve managed to hold them off in the West since the 7th century, so what’s changed now? PC leftism is about the only thing I can think of.
Actually I think you’ll see an overcorrection to the so-called ‘far right’ (really ultra nationalist socialists) like Golden Dawn and the BNP, and it will be as bad if not worse than the Left running the place.
It’s happening in Europe now, and not a pretty sight. people will swing between 2 extremes who are really quite similar – communists and fascists.
papachango
17 Sep 12 at 5:51 pm
The Christians of Banda Island, North of Darwin,were totally cleaned out during the rule of Megawatti. Either killed or they managed to escape to other places. They were not offered asylum in Australia. They had lived peacefully with the Muslims for more than 400 years but for some real or imagined offence were wiped out!
Peter Martin
17 Sep 12 at 5:54 pm
Yep; and if there were any testicles attached to our political leaders a proper enquiry would start with the muslim leaders and mosque demagogues.
cohenite
17 Sep 12 at 5:55 pm
In continual defensive mode, its easy to be distracted by the stupid economic initiatives of the Left, and forget the Left/Islamist Coalition has other objectives involving the dumb taxpayers of the west.
This girl is merely doing what good Muslims do. Leftists used to argue that Islam is a religion pf peace, and it was only right wing propaganda that pretended they were inherently violent.
I have read most of the Koran (I actually doubt most Muslims have). I recommend that all people read at least some of it. I lost count of the number of passages in which Muslims were urged to kill or enslave unbelievers. The Koran judges that all you people at this site should be killed or enslaved (Yes it does, Left/Right, the lot! Read it!). Unless you submit to Allah, then you can join the killers and enslavers.
Jannie
17 Sep 12 at 5:57 pm
Bill, I agree with you.. but it doesn’t mean they’ll lose out in history.
Look at Afghanistan, Iran. Both countries were thriving in the 60′s and 70′s.. then it all went to shit.
Who won that? It wasn’t western inspired liberalism.
duncan
17 Sep 12 at 5:58 pm
Candy – clearly ‘young mum’ was not forced, she is taking photos of it all. She is a fascist breeding machine.
These demon possessed people have been doing this violent demanding carry-on for 1400 years now, silly westerners act all surprised and wonder when they might stop.
Chris M
17 Sep 12 at 6:03 pm
October 12. We have already had our personal demonstration of their intentions towards the Skips. 10 years ago for fuck’s sake!
Why the fuck do we need another demonstration of their collective insanity. We need to be working on solutions now, before it is far too late.
Rule of law, applied equally. The only answer.
Kaboom
17 Sep 12 at 6:04 pm
the smaller and more powerless the group, the more extreme the signs. gains media attention
see http://www.volokh.com/2012/09/15/just-say-no-to-terrorism/ for a great post
Muslim terrorists and rioters rarely if ever targeted Soviet embassies in the 1980s or Chinese ones today, despite the many Muslim grievances against those two governments over the USSR and Afghanistan and the USSR’s and China’s harsh treatment of its own large Muslim population.
this was because those two dictatorships would not make any concessions.
Jim Rose
17 Sep 12 at 6:05 pm
Catholic Atrocities?
I spent 10 years in various Catholic Concentration Camps. I never saw any atrocities. If I ever did, I was taught by those people to stand up for my own rights and dignity, and to protect any weak people who may be exploited or abused. That was what they taught us, and that what was they expected from us. I guess there were some failures.
Cohenite, you sound like you have absorbed the relativist pulp of the post modernists. You condemn many a good man and woman unjustly, but I understand that its from a lack of experience, rather than the other way around.
Jannie
17 Sep 12 at 6:11 pm
The Catholic church demonstrates this. At a time when Australian society was given far less right and latitude to question the religious structures a massive offence against the community was being perpetrated.
….
which dwarf the Catholic attrocities
Nonsense. You hadn’t heard of Vatican II? And the “massive offenses” being committed were being committed in other religious and secular institutions as “massively” and more “massively”, respectively, as well. And if we justifiably bear this ignominy will you also share along with us the ignominy of the neglect perpetrated of our secular leaders?
dover_beach
17 Sep 12 at 6:11 pm
There was an interesting story I read in a book about Reagan’s CIA Director, Bill Casey.
The book described how the Soviets at the time handled diplomats being kidnapped.
There was one time a couple of Sov embassy staff were kidnapped in Beirut. The sovs put the word out they wanted them back and wanted them alive ASAP. When that didn’t happen, several dudes suspected of being involved with the kidnapping disappeared. They were found dead, tortured and with their private parts stuffed in their mouths.
The kidnapped sovs were quickly released after that.
That book then talked about how Casey was suitably impressed but understood American limitations and how Sov diplomats were no longer touched.
JC
17 Sep 12 at 6:17 pm
cohenite, the problem is we don’t seem to have a Churchill anywhere to make up for the plethora of Chamberlain type characters currently in charge.
Obio
17 Sep 12 at 6:18 pm
If Muslims became the majority in our society, would Australia remain a secular democracy (like Indonesia)?
I’m not at all confident we would.
The other consideration is that moderate Muslims have little control over their more radical fellows and we largely cannot differentiate until they declare themselves radical by action or statement.
What percentage subscribe to jihad and the imposition of sharia?
JamesK
17 Sep 12 at 6:23 pm
Kate was offended and is to use the law. The rioters had supposed offence and broke the law. They demand freedom to impose themselves and to limit other’s rights. Why are limits placed on some and not others? Yes I know left is right and right is wrong!
stackja
17 Sep 12 at 6:26 pm
Jannie and DB:
Some.
I did say there was no equivalence between this stain on Catholicism and the blackness of Islam, did I not?
And I do say the media focus on the ‘sins’ of Catholicism and their apology for Islam is egregious.
Given this, what is your point?
cohenite
17 Sep 12 at 6:28 pm
I say let these fucks make signs like that, because how many times have we seen any Christians, Jews, Hindus or Buddhists act like this when their feelings are hurt?
Freedom of speech creates the sunshine which is the best disinfectant. I’m not saying that we are a country which has freedom of speech (just ask Bolt), but compared to the where those savages holding the signs come from, we’re the Somalia of Speech.
Somalia being what lefties think is a Libertarian paradise.
Alex Pundit
17 Sep 12 at 6:30 pm
I did say there was no equivalence between this stain on Catholicism and the blackness of Islam, did I not?
And I do say the media focus on the ‘sins’ of Catholicism and their apology for Islam is egregious.
Yes, but this constant refrain to the stock image “the ‘sins’ of Catholicism”, while the sins of other religious and secular institutions, which are as great, and possibly greater, are ignored just underlines the media’s focus. Why not, the Anglican atrocities, for instance?
dover_beach
17 Sep 12 at 6:37 pm
If it’s not our media and left politicians falling over themselves to appologize for, and thus enable, these radicals.
It’s generations of students in schools and universities being taught that the radicals are right and the West is the enemy/problem.
I don’t know why everyone is assuming these people are immigrants. They would be 95% home grown. That’s the real casue for alarm.
Luke
17 Sep 12 at 6:41 pm
I suggest a free one way ticket to pakistan on a sheep boat !
They hold 30000 sheep ,so you could fit 1800 islamofascists on one !
The boats have troughs to feed and drink from .plety good enough for thoe mongrels !
Ten a week for a start!
Borisgodunov
17 Sep 12 at 6:41 pm
Let them say whatever the hell they like. If they want to be our enemies, well, know thy enemy and all that sort of thing.
I think Fatty O’Barrell understands that politically it is better to ensure the thugs portray themselves as such rather than make the police the “aggressors”. How many deluded fools are now having second thoughts of our poor misunderstood Muslim brethren as a result of Saturday’s show of unrivaled hatred and disrespect?
Muslim fundamentalists 0, decent folk 1, politically. Give them plenty of rope, metaphorically speaking. I’m sure there are plenty more own goals awaiting the scumbags.
Twodogs
17 Sep 12 at 6:47 pm
Anyone watch Today Tonight? (yeah, I know…)
A selection of Muslims, some who attended the protest, and Joe Hildebrand were interviewed.
Ouch. S### just got worse. “It was wrong, but…”.
Joe at one point said “I’m calling bullshit on this” and explained that the movie had nothing to do with us. He did well.
They don’t accept that free speech should permit offending the prophet.
It’s worth viewing so hope it’s online.
Harold
17 Sep 12 at 6:58 pm
What will be the outcome of saturday’s crapfest? Sweet FA. Nothing happened after the Cronulla revenge attacks, for example. Carnita Matthews got off on a technicality and lived to brag about it.
We’ve got the muslim apologistas out bleating about how they fear a backlash days after houses have been raided by police on suspicion of potential terrorist acts, people arrested in two states over charges of the genital mutilation of children, and this is not the first time a child has been seen holding a disgusting sign.
Nothing happened then, either.
I’ve attended enough rallies to know the rhetoric, listened as a female half my age with an aussie accent whined about how her parents were refugees from Palestine, having left there in about 1969 and made their way here.
I’ve seen the black battle standard flying in Melbournistan on several occasions, and because I blog about it I cop racist, nazi, bigot and plenty of other names.
All this talk is just that. Talk. How many people educate themselves about why the muslims demand what they do? How many people would rather just whinge about the laws in order not to have to confront our ongoing issues here?
There is a segment of our society that demands we roll over and just shut up.
For years we’ve been doing it.
And yes, I’m seriously pissed about what happened on saturday.
/rant.
nilk
17 Sep 12 at 7:01 pm
Yeah, fuck, go for it. I think Henry V111 was a fat bastard.
cohenite
17 Sep 12 at 7:06 pm
“The other consideration is that moderate Muslims have little control over their more radical fellows and we largely cannot differentiate until they declare themselves radical by action or statement.”
That’s quite true, JamesK.
we live a couple of blocks from a major mosque and the Muslims you meet in daily life are polite and law abiding (though you can never be close in a friendship way with them because of the religiouis difference), but one has no idea of knowing if some could be radical or not. you can’t tell.
candy
17 Sep 12 at 7:12 pm
Geez people are historical numpties.
The fact is until 1832 in England and 1848 across Europe, most countries were ruled by homicidal dickheads.
Who is worse? Thomas Cromwell, Bloody Mary, Geroge Jeffreys (James II’s hanging judge) or de Mandeville who controlled the tower during the anarchy?
The answer is it doesn’t matter, they basically acted in a fashion similar to the Nazis and if apprehended in modern times for their crimes, would probably have been executed as were a lot of high ranking Nazis.
.
17 Sep 12 at 7:18 pm
I am waiting for our Dear Leader to correctly describe these retarded thugs as “mysoginist nut-bags”.
Still waiting.
Leigh Lowe
17 Sep 12 at 7:43 pm
Quite so, Chris M. This is why I refer frequently to the “small minority of misunderstanders” red herring.
blogstrop
17 Sep 12 at 7:53 pm
That young mum is doing what all proud young mums do : snap photos of their offspring on a cellphone.
She is probably brainwashed by her family and husband, mores the pity. But she is definitely part of the problem.
I agree with the sentiment that these types of actions (+ particularly the embassy bombings) need to have serious repercussions, not just mouthing apologies and doubling up the Marine platoon at the embassy.
The protaganists grow stronger when they get concessions like apologies. It allows them to recruit waverers to the cause, and to normalise the activities.
I don’t mean shooting and killing type standing up, although it may get to that one day – there are a lot of pressure points that can be applied, diplomatic, economic, you name it.
Appeasement is the road to ruin. You may as well start paying the Danegeld and beg for mercy.
brc
17 Sep 12 at 7:55 pm
I’m waiting for David Marr to call them “homophobic thugs”.
I’m also waiting for Scipione to explain why the police seem to have a good case of the battered wife syndrome when it comes to violent Muslims.
Keith
17 Sep 12 at 7:59 pm
That’s what Centrelink’s for.
nilk
17 Sep 12 at 8:00 pm
PC is feature in classical liberalism. It can’t be debugged. Actually the analogy in software hacker terms would be ‘Trojan horse’.
Big Jim
17 Sep 12 at 8:01 pm
‘PC is a feature…’
Big Jim
17 Sep 12 at 8:01 pm
Horseshit.
I’m a classical liberal and I think you’re a dopey, faggoty & spastic fucktard.
.
17 Sep 12 at 8:02 pm
Given this, what is your point?
Cohenite, I am not exactly sure, maybe I got offended and wanted you to be beheaded. (Joke, OK?) I just got a bit tribal at the easy use of the term “Catholic Atrocities”. I was taught by Catholics (their tribes are as varied as the nations in which they live). The tribe who taught me had many bastards in their ranks, but in my experience, many more good men and women.
I have no illusions about them, I dont think they claimed to be pure or perfect. They taught independent critical thinking (which may account for the high numbers of ‘lapsed catholics’), but they taught no tolerance of atrocities, physical or moral.
Jannie
17 Sep 12 at 8:06 pm
Political correctness is a marxist term, which has been heartily embraced by do-gooders and bleeding hearts all around the world. It’s a fantastic way to club people and feel smug while you do so.
Just like ‘social justice’ and ‘racism’ (which was first used by Trotsky, apparently).
nilk
17 Sep 12 at 8:08 pm
Islam doesn’t; in fact I suspect the only “atrocity” recognised and taught by Islam is not being Islamic.
cohenite
17 Sep 12 at 8:17 pm
An exceptionally eloquent classical liberal
SteveC
17 Sep 12 at 8:17 pm
The lefty trolls don’t get it, they think they are being original when they start a trolling in exactly the same way as the last 100.
Big Jim, go do some reading and come back once you’ve got an education. There is a great list of sites on the blog roll where you can start your journey.
Token
17 Sep 12 at 8:18 pm
Steve C come on , ya gotta laugh a that insult
Tal
17 Sep 12 at 8:23 pm
I see the abc has given some space to the ‘pretty’ face of Islam to peddle bullshit about the “true message” of Islam.
cohenite
17 Sep 12 at 8:40 pm
Bwahaha!:
Horribly Orientalist portrayal!
Infidel Tiger
17 Sep 12 at 8:53 pm
How heteronormative are the Orientalists?
.
17 Sep 12 at 8:55 pm
The abc article by the ‘pretty’ face of Islam is the good cop to the bad cop of the riot; classic intimidation.
Anyone who thinks there are moderate muslims has their head up their arse.
cohenite
17 Sep 12 at 8:59 pm
Wow. That’s right, muslims condemned the death of Mr. Stevens so strongly that they dragged his body through the streets and took a stack of photos of it.
nilk
17 Sep 12 at 9:14 pm
At The Roar of Lions: The Asymmetric Campaigns of Muhammad
So sayest the prophet.
stackja
17 Sep 12 at 9:25 pm
I’ve got a bunch of Iranian’s at work. Had a chat this morning regarding the goings on of the weekend.
The biggest issue for them is that they simply have no experience of the sort of vile offensiveness that people growing up in the west as Christians are expected to cop continuously from a young age.
None whatsoever.
While the guys are only nominally Islamic, they had gone and looked up the movie and were utterly shocked by it. Apparently its an interweaving of truth, stuff that is normally not mentioned and outright lies.
But, that sort of thing simply does not happen in their culture. Doesn’t excuse violence, but offers a bit of background to why the less restrained may react as they did.
Driftforge
17 Sep 12 at 9:26 pm
Quite so. Moderate adherents of that disgusting medieval death cult are a myth.
If you can’t accept the sentiments above, look up the quote by that shitbag erdogan, it may disabuse you…
Rabz
17 Sep 12 at 9:27 pm
I take that it’s established that we’ve got a problem in Oz. right here right now?
Pickles
17 Sep 12 at 9:34 pm
That’s just ridiculous.
.
17 Sep 12 at 9:40 pm
I recall my dear old Mother recounting the tribalist Anglican / Catholic antagonism back before the 1960′s. I wonder how much Muslim aggro is due to a similar sort of tribalism e.g. The Cronulla Riots,
that they are the latest immigrants (before them the Christian Lebanese, before them the Vietnamese, Italians, back in the 1920′s the Chinese,
or that they have brought their post WWII National Socialism (Ba’ath Socialist Party) influences? Another perfectly predictable consequence of the Trade Union Party’s branch stacking heritage.
Hopefully their third generation will turn out like all those that went before.
And as someone has already posted, sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Forester
17 Sep 12 at 9:45 pm
“Big Jim, go do some reading and come back once you’ve got an education. There is a great list of sites on the blog roll where you can…”
I am familiar with the glories of liberalism, just not aware of any modern state where liberalism is not degenerating into PC tyranny.
Big Jim
17 Sep 12 at 9:56 pm
The question of the existence of moderate Muslims is made more difficult because of the Islamic doctrine of taqiyya/kitman – that it is permissible to lie to unbelievers if it advances the cause of Islam.
Muhammed himself lied to unbelievers to further the cause of Islam – see for example the ten-year Treaty of al-Hudaibiyya with the Meccans which he broke two years later, as soon as he was strong enough to defeat them. Which makes the interminable ‘peace process’ between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs totally pointless. Arafat would often invoke the Treaty of al-Hudaibiyya when talking to Muslim audiences, but not in the presence of unbelievers.
“For war is deceit” –Muhammed
Andreas
17 Sep 12 at 10:21 pm
“Steve C come on , ya gotta laugh a that insult.”
It was quite funny. Misses the point though that such heroic’ displays of non-PC may only occur in private in even this most liberal of societies.
Big Jim
17 Sep 12 at 10:27 pm
Forester makes a good point about recent catholic and protestant sectarian divisions in Australia.
religious divisions in the ALP. the catholics versus masons in the public service.
these sectarian divisions died out because of a general loss of interest in religion rather than a decision to play nice.
Jim Rose
17 Sep 12 at 10:37 pm
Islam kills. Leftism kills.
CC
17 Sep 12 at 10:39 pm
Yeah Andreas, a moderate Muslim is either ignorant of the Koran, or practising Taqiya.
Anything that an educated and articulate Muslim says should be understood in this context.
And it follows that any articulate Muslim will deny that the convention of Taqiya exists, or dissemble its significance. Thats why I keep telling people to read the friggin Koran.
Jannie
17 Sep 12 at 10:43 pm
Correct; I did not consider the anatomy; so, anyone who thinks there are moderate muslims has their head up someone else’s arse.
cohenite
17 Sep 12 at 10:50 pm
Jannie, reading religious texts is informative. The god of the Old Testament was a cruel and demented god.
The People of the Book in the Qur’an refers to the followers of monotheistic Abrahamic religions older than Islam. This includes all Christians and all Children of Israel.
Many statements in the Qur’an promote tolerance towards People of The Book. The most widely cited example: “To you your religion, and to me mine”
Throughout Islamic history, Muslims have used different verses to justify a variety of positions towards non-Muslims. In some places and times, Muslims showed a great deal of tolerance; in other places and times non-Muslims were persecuted.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book
Jim Rose
17 Sep 12 at 10:54 pm
“The biggest issue for them is that they simply have no experience of the sort of vile offensiveness that people growing up in the west as Christians are expected to cop continuously from a young age.”
Driftforge what world do you live in? I’ve travelled through the middle east and you can switch on the evening free-to-air TV in Egypt and watch dramatizations of “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” and so on. Demonisation and dehumanisation of Jews and in particular Israelis is so commonplace that no-one would bat an eyelid.
Am I supposed to believe that Iranians fully aware of their leaders’ Holocaust denial and violent denunciations of their enemies, the great and little Satans, are so shocked that someone would mock their own religion. Not to mention the violent struggles between Shia and Sunni Islam, which date back to nearly the beginning.
I work with Iranians too but they would have been mildly bemused by the movie at most. The trailer is barely comprehensible anyway. I’m not surprised many protesters haven’t actually seen it as if English is your second language you would have no hope of working out what the insults are supposed to be.
rob
17 Sep 12 at 10:55 pm
The problem Jim is that few of us, I suspect, have a deep interest in comparative religion…but we do want to be able to walk through central Sydney without being threatened with beheading.
rob
17 Sep 12 at 11:05 pm
The guys here are less than six months out of Iran. So it may well be different for others. Just noting the situation and discussion I had.
DriftForge
17 Sep 12 at 11:06 pm
Yes, interesting. Everyone on Q&A this evening condemning the film prefaced their comments by saying ‘I haven’t actually seen it, but..’
A bit like Shorten saying: ‘I don’t know what the PM said, but I agree with it’
PC leftism: you know it makes sense.
Lazlo
17 Sep 12 at 11:07 pm
Jim Rose is pretty naive to think the Koran promotes tolerance towards people of the book. Islam means submission (not peace). Shorter Islam: submit or die. ‘People of the book’, an odious (and derogatory) Muslim appellation which I refuse to use for Christians and Jews who don’t call themselves any such thing, get a third option: dhimmitude. Which is a metaphorical and symbolic beheading. I suggest you get your information from a better source than Wikipedia (which is overrun with ignorant 14 year olds and every sort of extremist apologist on most topics related to religion)
CC
17 Sep 12 at 11:15 pm
Thanks for that link, CC. I hadn’t realised the US government effectively signed Chris Stevens’ death warrant by sending a gay ambassador to a violent muslim country. At best, treacherous stupidity.
Tom
18 Sep 12 at 12:58 am
Um, Jim Rose, I suggest you read the Koran, and not rely on Wikipedia.
Sure some statements in the Koran allow peace to people of the book, subject to the laws of Dhimmitude. The ‘tolerance’ towards Jews and Christians diminished substantially after Mohamed was militarily secure.
As for Islam being in the Abrahamic tradition, that is theologically debatable. The original Mohamedan God was the moon, and still exists as the Kabah in Mecca (a meteorite thought to be a part of the moon, which was worshipped as a God in Mohamed’s day). I know Muslims ascribe to some kind of ‘Abrahamic Tradition’, but selectively.
There is a complex discussion about Abraham’s sacrice of Isaac – the Muslims say it was not Isaac but Ishmael. The Jewish tradition holds that God prevented the sacrifice of Isaac, because killing an innocent was an abomination. The muslim tradition holds that God spared Ishmael because Abrhaham submitted to God. At any rate, Muslims believe they descend from Ishmael not Isaac.
Who cares about comparative religion? Not me a lot, but it pays to know your friends, and know your enemy better. The point is that Christian violence has always been against the message of Jesus, and rarely even meeting Aquinas’ requirements for a Just War. Muslim violence is usually consistent with the requirements of the Koran, which may be why its hard to find Muslims condemning it.
Jannie
18 Sep 12 at 1:03 am
why do you think a really small (less than 1000 people) deomnstration in Sydney is representative of a large community? Any evidence.
Mind you, the police was alterted by text messages from Muslims.
Boris
18 Sep 12 at 1:24 am
That sample is good enough for most pollsters.
C.L.
18 Sep 12 at 1:42 am
CL, but this does not make sense, because this is not a random sample, not by any stretch.
It is like saying that 1000 football hooligans are representative of the wider population. They are not. Not even of football fans, let alone wider pupulation.
Boris
18 Sep 12 at 2:00 am
Could be that it’s a sample of non-condemning Muslims? There seem to be quite a few of those. Not a random sample it is true, and representing an extreme end of a spectrum, but convenience samples are sometimes useful and indicative if one accepts their limitations.
Anyway, sampling is not really the issue here. These people demonstrating represent something that is abhorrant in our culture and this representation is not limited to the few who demonstrate, as we know from the nature of their sacred text.
The question is: how best to tackle and contain this disease while being true to our own principles of political freedom and free speech.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
18 Sep 12 at 7:38 am
Ok Boris, so the moderate muslims are those who do not turn up to do physical things; if that’s your definition then there are a lot of MMs.
I guess the authors of this bit of agitprop at the abc are therefore moderate muslims; but both these women endorse the demand for Sharia law in Australia.
Is Sharia law moderate?
Just because the bulk of muslims don’t carry on like pork chops doesn’t make them moderate.
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 8:52 am
Lizzie, there’s only one way.
Isolation.
Send them back to their own cultures. You cannot negotiate with the plague.
Bob Sewell
18 Sep 12 at 9:14 am
Talking heads on ABC24 emphatic the islam is the “religion of peace”.
tell that to all those murdered in the name of Allah.
Also,
Muslim Youths In Nigeria Crucify A Cat On The Cross To Protest Anti-Islam Film
Gab
18 Sep 12 at 9:52 am
It is ridiculous. 25 people stirring 1000 people out of 480 000 people from 22 million.
The s11 protests had 10 000 people.
Sharia law is wrong, no disagreements here. How many Muslims actually want it?
.
18 Sep 12 at 10:23 am
Searching for at least one positive outcome resulting from the riot I discovered that on Saturday night there was not one drive-by shooting in Sydney.Could it be that the usual suspects,having got their rocks off bashing Police,took a night off?
Lew
18 Sep 12 at 10:47 am
I don’t think you can reduce the impact of Islam down to a %. Consider this. Note the % in European nations; once the muslim % reaches about 5% considerable social disruption occurs; look at France at 7.5% where major parts of the cities are effectively under Sharia law.
Islam does not have any mechanism for controlling extremism. That doesn’t mean all muslims are extreme in action; the vast majority aren’t but they constitute a mass which enables the violent extremists to operate from.
In respect of Sharia law I don’t know how many muslims want Sharia law in Australia; certainly some do.
What is s.11?
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 11:22 am
blockquote>It is ridiculous. 25 people stirring 1000 people out of 480 000 people from 22 million.
The s11 protests had 10 000 people.
Sharia law is wrong, no disagreements here. How many Muslims actually want it?
I don’t think you can reduce the impact of Islam down to a %. Note the % in European nations; once the muslim % reaches about 5% considerable social disruption occurs; look at France at 7.5% where major parts of the cities are effectively under Sharia law.
Islam does not have any mechanism for controlling extremism. That doesn’t mean all muslims are extreme in action; the vast majority aren’t but they constitute a mass which enables the violent extremists to operate from.
In respect of Sharia law I don’t know how many muslims want Sharia law in Australia; certainly some do.
What is s.11?
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 11:25 am
We live in a society where very little is sacred and we have learnt to wear people like Catherine Deveny (even though through gritted teeth).
I would say the ANZAC tradition is the nearest we come to regarding something as sacred in Australia. If someone piddled on the Cenotaph on Anzac Day would that generate a riot? The police would deal with the offender and I suspect the rest would vent through talkback, letters to the editor, blog posts and inner fuming. We have learnt to sublimate outrage through these means.
Three to four hundred years ago putting a foot wrong on the question of religion would lead you to a fiery death in the West. Where we were once sectarian and deadly serious about religion we are now if not secular then at the very least laissez faire. The Middle East is where we once were where the sacred is just that – sacred – with populations which are emotional and volatile in temperament. Hence the huge culture clash involving almost total mutual “it does not compute” between the West and Islam.
Furthermore Islam is transnational in a way catholicism and other denominations are not – the umma (Muslim community) is experienced as a global mind in which the reaction in one Islamic country quickly spreads (even more so since the Internet). This means, as we have discovered, that Australia cannot consider itself immune from the possibility of Downtown Beirut coming to weird and wonderful life in Downtown Sydney.
The good news is that the pace of change and evolution in societies is much more rapid than in previous times. And the traffic in ideas and attitudes is not just one-way. There are rocky times ahead and changes will be painful all round. But we made it through – and we can only hope the others will too.
And let’s not kid ourselves that Western culture has arrived at some sort of Nirvana either – IMO we have arrived at the other extreme of materialism, cynicism and the absence in many cases of any semblance of respect, modesty and awe at life’s mystery.
Which bring us back full circle to the likes of Catherine Deveney.
Viva
18 Sep 12 at 1:22 pm
“Islam does not have any mechanism for controlling extremism.”
Cripes you’re a dill. No religions have mechanisms for controlling their loonies. The average muslim is likely no more stupid or dangerous than the average baptist. The sydney idiots are reflections only on themselves.
Pedro
18 Sep 12 at 2:51 pm
No one is worried but the belly of bell curve, Pedro. It’s the fat tail we are concerned with.
JC
18 Sep 12 at 3:26 pm
That bit of moral equivalency tells any one with a modicum of sense all they need to know about perennial leftist twit Pedro.
If you can’s say anything sensible Pedro why continue to write fuckwittery?
Is such drivel, in fact, all you’re capable of?
JamesK
18 Sep 12 at 3:39 pm
Yes, JC, it only takes a few crazies to do a lot of damage, but cohenite was babbling on about all muslims being this that and the other and where their heads need to be shoved. That stuff is just stupid. The idiots on either side shout mindless slogans at each other without actually thinking about stuff.
You and I are old enough to remember how stupid people used to be about micks, coons, wogs and jews and all the rest of it. Pretty embarrassing to look back on even if we did think we were only trying to be funny. cohenite doesn’t even have that excuse.
Still think I’m a lefty I see jimbo. You’re not the sharpest pencil in the box are you?
Pedro
18 Sep 12 at 4:31 pm
Fuck you, again; you’ve taken me out of context; the context was the numerical critical mass above which Islam becomes largely sui juris in whatever host nation it is in.
No doubt some of the muslims who went on talkback after Sydney were earnest in their condemning of the other fuckwits, who, imo, presented a fair picture of an inherent part of Islam; but they all prefaced their condemnation with the context that the rioters did not reflect mohammed or the prophet.
This is the point; even these muslims doing the condemning did so on the back of their creed; the secular state doesn’t rate with them, until it contradicts that creed.
I see Sydney as a feint, a probe to test the level of resistance; the answer from our craven leaders was none; so the incremental push will continue.
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 4:37 pm
If they seriously believe he was a peaceful dude and he should be emulated, that’s a good thing.
.
18 Sep 12 at 4:43 pm
I’m with you on most of that Pedro but I have some misgivings about some of it.
The “Micks, coons, wogs and Jews” were treated abysmally by the anglos.. although the micks were just as bad and recalling they identified more with the anglos when picking on the rest.
But as varied as they were they basically shared core values.. Asians do too by the way.
About 5 years ago I recall reading about how the groups were doing (from Monash uni reserach paper). The intermarriage rate in OZ was/is about 77% which means the groups have melded in enormously well. Like if you want to bonk each other then I suppose the research paper was correct to suggest the melting pot was working. Australian society, despite all the bullshit about waaacism that the left go on about is the most successful on earth in getting along. It doesn’t get better than this.
However the one group where where the intermarriage rate was down at 17% were muzzos. After the second generation the group wasn’t co-mingling. In the end though it’s a small enough not to worry about I think.
JC
18 Sep 12 at 4:47 pm
No I didn’t, I looked at all your comments and it’s one sweeping generalisation after another about stuff you clearly can’t know shit about. It’s possible that all muslims in australia are secret terrorists, but there’s awful little evidence for the claim.
“but they all prefaced their condemnation with the context that the rioters did not reflect mohammed or the prophet.”
So, the average christian has to take a few liberties with the interpretation of the bible as well. As Mark noted, the point is not what is in the koran but what the believers think about it.
Pedro
18 Sep 12 at 4:48 pm
Yeah, I worry about the assimilation stuff, but I think they’ll come good too. To the extent there is a problem I think their religion is a big part of it. But here’s the thing, it’s a free country. Being a dick protesting a movie is fine with me. If you are violent then the cops should move, but that’s the same for picket lines, greenies, and drunken yobs.
Those guys come here cause it’s better. They’ll see the light, and I believe most already do. You must know some muslims, they seem pretty normal to me. No more weird that the hyper-catholics (by today’s standards) that were my family and our friends when I was a kid.
Pedro
18 Sep 12 at 4:56 pm
I was reading somewhere how Mohammed gave a farewell speech in Mecca or the other place which escapes my memory. He was getting old and frail and it appeared to everyone including him that this would be his last trip there before he croaked it.
Reading the speech or sermon he gave and I thought it was really good and in some ways quite moving. Now I know there’s some other crap in the Koran, but I can’t quite see how the loons get their stuff from say a speech/sermon like this one.. Why doesn’t this carry any weight with them I wonder.
O People
Man, he really hated interest. Lucky he wasn’t around during Keating’s time as treasurer or he would have gone berserk.
He also had tickets on himself too.
JC
18 Sep 12 at 5:04 pm
LOL
Surely Pedro-the-bigot is not yet another nasty dishonest leftist masquerading as a libertarian?
Surely not?
Anti-Christian bigotry, dishonesty and moral equivalence are markers of leftism.
They’re also quite clearly and repeatedly characteristic of da ped’s comments.
And rather conveniently and disingenuously Pedro did not answer the pointed criticism above.
Funny that.
JamesK
18 Sep 12 at 5:05 pm
I saw a part of a news segment that talked about how the Greenslime were booby trapping trees in parts of Victoria meant to destroy saws etc. I know where my priorities would be with the cops. Disgusting swine.
JC
18 Sep 12 at 5:07 pm
That’s bullshit and another attempt to verbal me. The point I make again is that when Islam reaches a critical mass it demands that the social structure conform to it.
You have to be a complete fucking idiot not to have noticed that process in the host nations around the world. I have already provided links to the world Islamic populations; here it is again.
A cursory perusal of the Western host nations reveals increasing demands by islam for their own legal process and recognition of their religious values when the population gets above about 5%.
Are you really denying that is not the case.
And this equivalence argument that prior immigration waves of other nationalities are the same as Islam is simply not true because islam is a religion not a nationality.
Anyway you’re a dickhead; this comment proves that and my point about the so-called islamic commentators relying on their religion rather than the secular social framework for their condemnation of the rioters; you say:
If the condemnation of the rioters, who think they are validly interpreting the koran, by other muslims is also based on the koran then all you have there is a sectarian conflict with the secular framework marginalised by both sides.
As I say the strength of a secular society is that its legal and scientific criterias are objective and testable. The twin evils now confronting the West are both religious, islam and AGW. The inroads by both are aided and abetted by dickheads like you.
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 5:09 pm
That is not correct. Here are just a few:
a) Doctrinal recognition of separation between church and state
Nope, Islam has no provision for the separation between church and state, meaning Islam is very difficult to restrict to the private sphere.
b) Interest in the spiritual realm, more-so than the material realm
Nope, Islam is very much concerned with this realm, the material realm. Indeed it is more than a religion – it is an amalgam of social, judicial and political systems with a belief system attached. Again, very difficult to restrict to the private sphere.
c) Flexibility, e.g. recognition that scriptures are the the work of humans, rather than the immutable word of God
Nope, the Koran is supposedly carved on a tablet in Heaven – hence it’s very difficult for Islam to escape the 7th century.
d) Clergy with a centralised and clear hierarchy
Nope. No Islamic equivalent of the Pope, for example.
In short, Cohenite is correct, Islam has little capacity to control its extremists. Fundamentally this is because moderate Muslims have very limited doctrinal support, hence they are easily marginalised by the more radical.
Andreas
18 Sep 12 at 5:13 pm
Cohenite..
I’m not buying into this argument as I don’t know enough about. I watched a program of SBS several months ago discussing Muzzo divorce and how their system has made some inroads here in Australia.
To be honest it didn’t appear like a bad thing to me. The deal is that both parties have to agree to divorce under a muzzo arrangement. They go see the religious muzzo who (automatically) tells the parties to go away for 30 days and then come back and see if they have reconsidered. Property division is made under Australian law.
Muzzo divorce customs cannot breach Australian law according to the program.
If there is a divorce the religious muzzo agrees to divorce them and then sends the paperwork etc to the Australian court of oversight where the final decision. I really can’t see anything wrong with this accommodation.
These sorts of accommodations aren’t hurting anyone and the host culture is being impacted by very little.
JC
18 Sep 12 at 5:19 pm
JC; the program you may be thinking of is here.
All of the Islamic women were coerced in one way or another to conform to the sharia principles; that is their husbands dictated the terms.
Divorce is never not messy but the stand out for me was the ‘journey’ of one feisty islamic women who was very modern in her attitude at the beginning of the program and wanted nothing to do with the restraints her fundamentalist husband was demanding of her.
The muslim ‘advisors’ kept telling her to persist and refused to give her the Sharia ‘divorce’ she was seeking even though she was eligible for an Australian [sic] divorce.
After several months she was a broken women, had reverted to the hijab and was going to progress to the burqa.
I’m afraid I’m not as sanguine about this trend as you
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 5:34 pm
JC @5:04 sadly that’s a fabricated version of Muhammed’s farewell sermon. Here is the real sermon.
The lines about an Arab having no superiority over non-Arabs, etc. are made up. And the lines where he speaks of women have been changed. The real lines:
Andreas
18 Sep 12 at 5:39 pm
Really, andreas? It’s fabricated? Fme.
JC
18 Sep 12 at 5:42 pm
Cohenite, why are you back pedalling on your comment. You claim to ahve been misquoted.
Your words:
That is total shite. Of all the dumb things you have said here that is the dumbest. And pretty scary coming from a representative of a regsitered political party.
SteveC
18 Sep 12 at 5:43 pm
After the afternoon session with Kimberly, steveC decides to troll a little.
JC
18 Sep 12 at 5:45 pm
SteveC; you’re the numerate Steve, aren’t you?
I don’t mind playing this game; the game of spot the moderate muslim, mm.
First some context; all Islamic terrorist attacks since and including 9/11 have involved muslims who were doctors, teachers, engineers and people who were described as wonderful, caring and loving people who had embraced their Western nation’s values.
Now SteveC, define a mm.
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 5:54 pm
Maybe those descriptions were just lies.
.
18 Sep 12 at 5:58 pm
Cohenite
How is that sort of pressure all that different than say a Catholic priest telling a couple not to divorce.
There’s religious pressure elsewhere too.
JC
18 Sep 12 at 6:03 pm
cohenite – mm – most American muslims, most of Turkey, Indonesia. You didn’t say there’s a lot of immoderate muslims, which I agree is true. You said ALL muslims are immoderate, which is, to quote dot, ridiculous.
SteveC
18 Sep 12 at 6:13 pm
Yeah JC, according to WikiIslam. I’d link to their entries about it but the site appears to be down. The cached versions:
List of Fabricated Hadith (scroll down to “Muhammed’s Farewell Sermon”)
The Farewell Sermon
Seems like it’s a good example of what I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Islamic doctrines of taqiyya and kitman – that it is permissible to lie to non-Muslims if it aids Islam, e.g. to gain the trust of non-Muslims. If you want to read about that see for example: Islam’s doctrines of deception
Andreas
18 Sep 12 at 6:15 pm
My answer to that would be both general and particular.
Generally catholicism is a domesticated religion; it accepts the secular framework which includes divorce. Being a large institution it will yank at the leash from time to time.
It wasn’t always that way and the Catholic Canon law still has active aspects at odds with the requirements of the secular law such as the sanctity of the confessional. But these are vestigal.
The particular difference is between counselling and coercing; I don’t see a great move by the catholics, as the most pro-active of the non-muslim churches to reintroduce Canonical law.
There is, however, a strong move from within islam to introduce sharia law; the marriage counselling that you speak of which is given to the muslim women is in that context.
The point is that I think it would be fair to say that the pressures to conform within the muslim community are much greater than within the catholic community because of that pressure to introduce sharia whereas there is none from within catholicism, and the general ‘tightness’ of the muslim community.
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 6:25 pm
These are examples not a definition; as examples they can be repudiated by other examples,
America; you’re joking; Islamic activism in the US is very alive and well.
Turkey, for many years a secular state now has an activist islamic government.
Indonesia; tell that to the Bali victims.
You need to define what an mm is; the discussion in this nation and the world is worthless without an operative definition; people like you claim there are such things but you can’t even define what it means to be an mm.
How fucking ridiculous is that.
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 6:34 pm
On 7.30 tonight it has been reported that Geert Wilders is on the movement alert list and his visa application has not been approved yet despite being lodged weeks ago. If he is not allowed intoAustalia then that will be an indication that we , as a society, have surrendered to the islamofascists and given up fighting for freedom…
Skuter
18 Sep 12 at 8:00 pm
SteveC, how are you going with that definition? It’s in the book, right next to Unicorn.
Here’s some help for you; pick the mm.
Fuckwit.
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 8:22 pm
cohenite, the onus is on you to defend the ludicrous proposition “there is so such thing as a moderate muslim”. I only have to find one to bust that assertion. Are you suggesting because there was a terrorist attack in Bali, all Indonesian muslims are fanatics?
ALL is a pretty high bar! My two close friends Mustafa and Mehedi are both very moderate, modern, law abiding Muslims. So the ALL bar is busted right there.
SteveC
18 Sep 12 at 9:23 pm
Waleed Aly seems pretty moderate to me
SteveC
18 Sep 12 at 9:31 pm
Tell that to Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
I always wonder when I am debating apologists for the horror show which is islam whether the apologist is disingenuous or genuine.
I think you are of the latter variety.
cohenite
18 Sep 12 at 10:27 pm
Yes, and also apropos of earlier comments re the ABC leftard retards talking about Islam as the religion of peace, a couple of vignettes..
Two years ago we did the Nile cruise – wonderful, and we had a very chatty, urbane and knowledgeable tour guide. Near the end, in Aswan, we did the visit to a Mosque, which all got a bit solemn and spiritual. In the bus the guide asked if anyone knew what the word ‘Islam’ meant. My wise partner called out ‘submission’. This clearly upset the chummy guide who immediately shouted ‘Who said that?!’ and then said ‘Islam also means peace’.
It was obvious that he was intending to tell a bus full of gullible western tourists that ‘Islam’ means ‘peace’. It doesn’t, it means submission.
I also vividly recall reporting of some incident on the West Bank when the Israeli Defence Force was alleged by furious Palestinians to have taken some outrageous actions in response to an arab riot. A young, female IDF officer in a press conference said: ‘There is something you need to understand about these people: they lie’
Lazlo
18 Sep 12 at 11:40 pm
Quoting Andrew Bolt?
hahahahahahahaha!!
SteveC
18 Sep 12 at 11:50 pm
Boris
19 Sep 12 at 1:55 am
Samuel, I think your suggestion – ‘Of course she should then be arrested for inciting violence’ – is as bad for free speech as saying offensive language should be banned.
We have to be careful what we call ‘incitement’. It can be used to stop people saying just about anything. Remember critics of Alan Jones saying he was inciting people to throw Gillard out to sea?
Only if someone had a sword, and I urged them to chop a particular person’s head off, would there be a case to say it’s incitement.
James In Footscray
19 Sep 12 at 7:48 am
I’m not verballing you cohenite. You verbal yourself. Unthinking righties and no better than unthinking lefties.
Andreas, that’s a fail. How do Christian religions control the loonies who shoot abortion doctors, for instance. The separate of church and state was forced on the fuckers, but the Pope doesn’t recognise it obviously, seeing he has his own state.
Jimbo, how am I a bigot? I merely say that religions are stupid, I’m not prejudiced against believers, I married one, my girls are baptised and my family are pretty much all believers. I also say astrology is stupid, does that make me a bigot?
Pedro
19 Sep 12 at 7:50 am
How do Christian religions control the loonies who shoot abortion doctors, for instance.
LOL. How do atheists control abortionists that leave their patients to bleed out?
The separate of church and state was forced on the fuckers,
No, we invented it: “Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s; to God what is God’s.”
dover_beach
19 Sep 12 at 8:16 am
Are you saying Aly didn’t say those things about Ayaan Hirsi Ali?
What does Aly have to say about Rushdie?
Aly is not a moderate person; he is subtle; in his book, as the excerpt I have linked to shows, Aly parrots all the ususal apologist mantras about Islam: the terrorists are not true muslims, the terrorists are the way they are because corrupt modernity has made them radical, the West does not understand Islam etc.
Astoundingly Aly also claims that Islam has had its reformation but, in a contrary direction to the Christian church, has reverted to a dark age in an opposite process to the enlightenment of Christianity due to the pernicious influence of the West.
It’s all the West’s fault.
Aly is not a moderate. And here is the thing; muslims are not moderates just because they don’t riot like the mob did in Sydney. They are not moderates because they are implacable in claiming the ascendency of their faith over the secular exigencies.
When those secular exigencies conflict with the faith there is no hesitation in the allocation of loyalties; that allocation can occur physically or through ‘reason’.
Aly was hostile to Ali because she had him picked, just like Rushdie has.
I said you were genuine in your belief in Islam moderation; just like Aly is in his.
cohenite
19 Sep 12 at 9:02 am
LOL
I have friends who are radical Christians…..
You dishonest creepy bigot, Pedro.
The American Christian Right are the same as radical islamists.
Of course, fucktard.
JamesK
19 Sep 12 at 9:24 am
the australian christian muslim friendship society seems pretty moderate, as does kaysar trad
stevec
19 Sep 12 at 1:20 pm
I don’t know what Aly has to say about Rushdie. You linked to a review of Aly’s book, which doesn’t mention Rushdie. What does he say about Rushdie?
This sounds moderate to me:
stevec
19 Sep 12 at 1:24 pm
Page 227; I said what he said about Rushdie in my post above; read it.
Keysar Trad, apologist for Hilali;
You must be joking; in fact I’m sure you are joking; you really don’t think islam is a problem, do you.
I said Aly was subtle:
When the West is subjugated to islam it won’t have any problems. No wonder they think we are fools.
Yep, Islam is SO nuanced.
The nuances of the concept of an mm is obviously beyond you.
cohenite
19 Sep 12 at 5:17 pm
This also looks perfectly reasonable. Which part of that interview was immoderate?
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 5:29 pm
Yep, so subtle that you don’t realise he is specifically talking about people like you.
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 5:30 pm
Pictures of burqas?
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 5:32 pm
The part you didn’t understand.
No, he is talking about people like you; it is a statement of dhimmitude; dhimmis don’t realise that; I realise that; you don’t realise that.
Do you like them? Do you think women should wear them? They’re rhetorical questions.
cohenite
19 Sep 12 at 6:06 pm
Translation, I (cohenite) can’t explain myself, I have no valid argument.
You’re the one that can’t accept that Muslims are different to for valid reasons. You don’t understand people that don’t think like you.
So burqas are part of your objection to Islam? Are muslim women who don’t weare burqas moderate muslims?
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 10:29 pm
Islam is predicated on chauvinistic misogynistic phallocratic doctrine in order to suppress women. This is only news to the clueless.
Gab
19 Sep 12 at 10:36 pm
As opposed to the catholic church?
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 10:39 pm
Talk to me when the Catholic Church decides adulteress’ should be put to death. You have no clue.
Gab
19 Sep 12 at 10:52 pm
A seriously stupid thing to say; the secular framework enshrines difference; Islam wishes to replace that with a system with no difference; that is their sine qua non; certainly everywhere where islam is dominant in the world today its tolerance of difference, whether it be based on other religions, secularism, sexuality, or anything which manifests individuality, is non-existent; violently so. I support a system which values difference; islam, despite some declarations from muslim scholars like Aly, provides demonstrable example after example that it doesn’t. In that respect it’s a case of what do you believe: what they say or what is done is islam’s name.
Your position is repugnant and a betrayal of Western society.
Are you a muslim?
cohenite
19 Sep 12 at 11:12 pm
I am not a lawyer but I am pretty sure I could get her off that one in a minute. She is calling for capital punishment which is only asking for the government to change the laws. She didn’t expicitly put that as she thought Australian’s were smart enough to understand her message. Many christians agree with capital punishment as do many non religious people. On occasions they call for the laws to be changed, should they all be locked up as inciting violence?
kelly liddle
19 Sep 12 at 11:23 pm
Gab, which of these has had a female leader?
Indonesia, The Vatican
Choose one.
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 11:23 pm
No cohenite I’m not a muslim, I’m an atheist. You have failed miserably to prove your assertion that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim. You talk in generality. It’s like saying during The Troubles there was no such thing as a moderate Irishman. Equally absurd.
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 11:29 pm
Stevec, does Islam have a female leader? Does Islam have one leader?
This is too easy.
Gab
19 Sep 12 at 11:31 pm
Are there any women in the hierarchy of the catholic church? Is Indonesia the largest muslim country on earth? So which one is suppressing women again?
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 11:34 pm
Sorry, did I say leader? Let’s be more general. How many women are there in power positions in the vatican?
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 11:36 pm
I can’t remember, which country was Benazir Bhutto leader of?
SteveC
19 Sep 12 at 11:39 pm
The prevalence of female leaders and politicians in islamic countries is, superficially, a fair point.
It would be glib to invoke Summer’s “God’s police and damned whores” paradigm to explain this apparent contradiction, but there is no doubt women can be at the forefront of oppression of other women and their society as a whole; the recent case on female circumcision in NSW highlights the role of women in implementing oppressive ideology.
Another reason for the prevalence of women in political positions in islam compared with catholicism is the centralised and hierarchial structure of catholicism.
However, the best explanation is that islam is a politicised ideology where the pinnacle of authority lies with the religious authority; as far as I know there has been NO female religious leader in any islamic society.
cohenite
19 Sep 12 at 11:44 pm
Pakistan, and they blew her up.
Infidel Tiger
19 Sep 12 at 11:45 pm
There has never been a moderate Irishman!
You really are an idiot.
cohenite
19 Sep 12 at 11:47 pm
So your problem then is simply the understanding of the words never and moderate.
SteveC
20 Sep 12 at 10:35 am
Steve, I have little regard for you, but you are a masochist, an endearing trait in a troll.
How is a non-moderate irishman different from a non-moderate muslim?
cohenite
20 Sep 12 at 3:23 pm