I watched the VP debate for the second time tonight since my wife hadn’t seen it during the day and I came away even more than before with the strong impression that Paul Ryan heavily took it out. He came across as someone with cool and judgement, someone with the gravitas and seriousness to be the president if he had to. He had thought about the issues and if he were called upon to decide on some matter, looks perfectly able to sort through the options he might be given with a genuine capability to properly weigh matters up.
Biden was the reverse. He struck me as crude and shallow, lacking in a genuine ability to see an issue through to the end. Nor did he give me that comfortable feeling that he would be able to take a difficult decision in which there might be a host of considerations to weigh up. And his laugh track was so irritating that you really do wonder whether he is psychologically unbalanced. It was obviously the strategy for him to smile and smile and be a villain yet, but if that was supposed to be a winning pose it worked for me not at all.
Before the debate I had written that:
Biden is wily and been around the traps for quite a while. He is practised in the art of politics which makes him a formidable opponent and not someone to let one’s guard down against for a moment. Though he lied and misrepresented from one end of the debate to the other, in my remembrance of the time he was more than a match for Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan is new at the game. Ryan has a number of potential problems in front of him – he may be too wonkish, he may sound too much like he intends to slash and burn and he is coming in against an expectation that will work against him if at the end of the night Biden has been able to hold his own. For all that, Ryan understands the issues within an inch of his life and Biden does not.
In the end, that’s still how it looked to me. Biden said whatever he thought might sound best on the night and truth be damned. He therefore came away with a superficial plausibility but struck me as someone of no substance. Ryan in contrast played it straight, obviously fortified by his deep knowledge of the issues and his commitment to the positions he took.
The test for me is this. If I were considering which of the two I would want to sit down with Vladimir Putin in some negotiation where some vital interest was at stake, there is no doubt that I would prefer it was Ryan at the table. On this, if there’s doubt for you, there’s none for me at all.
How can you say anything to “billy blow joe biden”.
What would be the point.
Nor the ‘adjudicator’.
If I was Paul Ryan I would have sat back and let the spew dribble forth, just as it did.
The real interest is how the Most Powerful Person In The World (MPPITW) will act at his next presentation with Romney.
Maybe The Big Bird (TBB, brother of MPPITW)) will plead the Fifth Amendment in front of everyone.
NoFixedAddress
13 Oct 12 at 12:28 am
I only listented to bits and pieces and I thought, regrettably, that Biden was more effective. I thought the mention of two letters from Ryan to Biden on green energy was a knockdown.
I think Steve you take the hope for the reality.
Boris
13 Oct 12 at 2:02 am
or more precisely, you agree with Ryan’s policies, and therefore naturally see him as the winner
Boris
13 Oct 12 at 2:09 am
Sounds like a fun night in
Lord Rexington
13 Oct 12 at 2:44 am
Boris: I take your point about the possibility of Steve viewing Ryan as the winner based on personal bias – this phenomenon is hardly uncommon in punditland. You may be right in saying that Biden was more effective in delivering the substance in the parts you caught. However, in this very scrappy, combative debate, there really wasn’t a lot of substance to reflect upon.
What there was was a crystal clear contrast between the demeanour of the two men – and I’m certain that this will be the take-away for the vast majority of people who watched the debate, not what information was imparted. I concur with Steve Kates’s description of Ryan’s composure. Biden, on the other hand, was downright weird – sometimes bordering on unhinged. That constant grin, the bizarrely timed laughter…yes, he was feisty. Feisty in the way that people who are mentally unbalanced or intoxicated are feisty. is this the guy Americans want to entrust with the country’s nuclear codes should something unfortunate happen to Obama?
Biden didn’t get the crap kicked out of him by an unusually reserved Paul Ryan, so I guess that should count as a major achievement by the VP. However, I think that he also managed to freak out an awful lot of viewers with the bizarre demeanour he maintained throughout the debate. As I said in an earlier comment, I doubt this will change the calculus of the race at this point, but I think a great many people will be reassessing their opinions of Biden due to his debate performance, and the results won’t favour him in the slightest.
Oh come on
13 Oct 12 at 3:16 am
Ultimately the VP has to be ready for that godawful moment when the President has just collapsed with a stroke and multiple radar echoes are coming over the pole from Russia (or from Iran to Israel, or N Korea to California, or whatever). I have never trusted Biden with that responsibility (nor Obama; IMO he’d let the US get pasted and not fire back). I would trust Romney or Ryan.
I would, admittedly, hope that his orders would be something like “Scramble everything that can carry an air-to-air missile, ready the ICBMs, but DO NOT RETURN FIRE in the absence of further orders unless mushrooms are rising on US soil.” That way, if the interceptors get lucky and knock everything down, a general exchange might be avoided.
perturbed
13 Oct 12 at 4:22 am
Given what we know about both men, and what even a fairly disinterested voter must have absorbed, it is instructive that this sort of post-debate analysis has to happen at all.
On the one hand there should be no doubt at all which one is the more competent. But such is the power of shallow impressions in the marketplace of the plebs’ votes that it is to a degree unavoidable.
This is why I harp on about the media, and why Groseclose took it so seriously as to do his definitve analysis of bias quotients and their effec on elections. This is why the liberal left in America (and here) went into something of a pink funk when Palin appeared on the scene. She had immediate appeal, and had to be exterminated. That took a while, but the forces of the left were implacable and determined, right up to one journalist moving in next door to her family home, an act I still find totally reprehensible. That person was greeted with enthusiasm by none other than Richard Fidler on his usually enjoyable program Conversations.
So, in the end, what do you want: a competent person, but not so much a match for the glad-handing huckster, or do you want the glib misrepresentation of the perpetuators of the Tammany Hall traditions?
Blogstrop
13 Oct 12 at 5:30 am
True, Biden seem to have strange disconnected ‘Tourettes’ style responses to Ryan ….. but hey, if you had a teleprompter in each ear, you’d probably be distracted too.
The Old and Unimproved Dave
13 Oct 12 at 5:42 am
Peggy Noonan (who it has to be said has embarrasses herself on one or two occasions during this campaign):
So, to the debate:
There were fireworks all the way, and plenty of drama. Each candidate could claim a win in one area or another, but by the end it looked to me like this: For the second time in two weeks, the Democrat came out and defeated himself. In both cases the Republican was strong and the Democrat somewhat disturbing.
Another way to say it is the old man tried to patronize the kid and the kid stood his ground. The old man pushed, and the kid pushed back.
Last week Mr. Obama was weirdly passive. Last night Mr. Biden was weirdly aggressive, if that is the right word for someone who grimaces, laughs derisively, interrupts, hectors, rolls his eyes, browbeats and attempts to bully
And so the Romney-Ryan ticket emerged ahead. Its momentum was neither stopped nor slowed and likely was pushed forward.
Meaning that things will continue to get hotter. The campaign trail, commercials, all sorts of mischief—everything will get jacked up, cranked up. Meaning the next debate is even more important. Which means, since the next debate is a town hall and won’t be mano-a-mano at the podium, that the third debate, on foreign policy, will be the most important of all.
JamesK
13 Oct 12 at 6:13 am
The Beghazi security ineptitude and ensuing WH cover-up may see this race over before Nov 6.
JamesK
13 Oct 12 at 6:15 am
The US TV networks reported a big (double figures %) drop in the VP debate audience compared with 2008′s Biden vs Palin (39 million people). Even so, Paul Ryan won, according to audience polls. That can be expected to give Romney-Ryan a small but significant bump in overall campaign polling (I’m guessing 0.5-1%), which extends the momentum and means Obama enters the last month fighting from behind. I’ve already put $200 on Romney.
Tom
13 Oct 12 at 7:28 am
It seems US voter registration and voting security is in disarray.
Thank god for pencils and a national Electoral Commission. Aust. got something right. Now for proof of ID before you can vote.
Alfonso
13 Oct 12 at 7:53 am
Axelrod’s still experimenting with the right mix of uppers and downers for a candidate in a televised debate.
dd
13 Oct 12 at 7:55 am
The Benghazi security ineptitude and ensuing WH cover-up may see this race over before Nov 6.
It’s not over until the U-Haul pulls up to the White House door. Here’s hoping Obambi is obliged to load it himself.
perturbed
13 Oct 12 at 8:27 am
Thanks for introducing the Putin test, a measure I ultimately use to measure a candidate.
I wrote yesterday during the debate that Ryan’s strategy was to appear calm & presidential,& to allow Biden enough time to say something wrong.
In the end he lied about Benghazi, lied about his votes on Iraq&Afghanistan, laughed when Ryan talked about Iran having nukes, & made some statements about Israel & Bibi will may prove a lie.
All up Ryan was the pugnacious pugilist winning on points while fending the wild haymakers of his opponent.
Only a lefty partisan would ignore the fact Biden unnecessrily picked a fight with Hillary & the moderator thus creating long term trouble for Obama.
All up good strategy. Biden’s blunders lost the debate.
Token
13 Oct 12 at 8:30 am
Boris, that point was one of the high points for Biden, as Ryan does have a congressional record that can be exploited.
I was impressed at that moment, but Biden soon lost all momentum by being way too aggressive and not allowing Ryan to respond.
At the end of that stoush Ryan survived & Biden appeared churlish.
Token
13 Oct 12 at 8:46 am
Axelrod was co-opted to manage his prep. Axelrod is a clown and a loser, a regular downhill skier. If Biden had not interrupted Ryan a reported 80+ times in an idiotic attempt to pwn him, he would have broken even or won using incumbency as authority. On second thoughts, he fucked up Libya, too. And he giggled like a dying comedian. Lost cause.
Tom
13 Oct 12 at 9:21 am
being crude and shallow as Biden was appeals to your base, but they will vote for you anyway.
the task was winning the undecided voter. smugness is rarely a good strategy
Jim Rose
13 Oct 12 at 9:34 am
Biden tried to win it on theatrics, but he’s a ham actor at best. Ryan evinced the calm and clarity that is needed of somone who has to make the big calls. And there are some very big calls to be made in the near future.
larrikin
13 Oct 12 at 9:49 am
If you take away the laughing and smirking, Biden won it. Ryan’s wide eyed, wonkish sincerity wasn’t effective on anything outside of economics, but particularly underwhelming when discussing Iran, Libya, and the middle east.
Over an hour and a half, an experienced debater will have styles that ebb and flow. Sometimes earnest, sometimes relaxed, sometimes passionate, sometimes dispassionate. Ryan doesn’t seem to be an experienced debater – he didn’t have much of a mix. He needs to get a lot practice between now and 2020.
Biden was good. He nailed Ryan on unemployment – interrupting Ryan’s violin concerto to exclaim “but it’s going down!” (which it is). He nailed him on Iran – claimed that the GOP was scaremongering over how close Iran was to a bomb. He noted that Iran was more diplomatically isolated than 4 years ago. “Four years ago they were on the ascendancy!” He said if we do take action now “the world will be behind us. And that matters.”
He got Ryan again and again on things like tax cuts for the rich, the “47 percent” comment, and bailouts, which he characterised as compassionate populism.
But the surface appearance counts. Biden laughed and smirked and interrupted too much, so he threw away what was otherwise a clear debate victory. Romney-Ryan dodged a bullet here. They nearly lost the VP debate.
dd
13 Oct 12 at 10:43 am
dd, I must respectfully disagree with you here. My sense overall was a tie, Biden certainly appeared authoritative to begin with and did reasonably well on FP but Ryan did better on the economy overall (yes, Biden’s reference to Ryan’s two letters played well but I would expect a Congressman to petition on behalf of his/her constituents even if the policy wasn’t one they supported). I don’t think he won on tax cuts to the rich, or the 47%, etc. and Ryan’s answers there were Romney’s. Biden’s agreesiveness played well to the Dems but the Independents largely will have been put off by his smirks, tone, etc. And so far as jobs growth is concerned the vast majority of those were p/t, not f/t, so the economy is still in the shitter.
dover_beach
13 Oct 12 at 10:57 am
Maybe I was too easily impressed by Biden’s glib one-liners and theatrics. Probably people who don’t follow much politics would have been very turned off by him.
Even so, Ryan needs more debate practice.
dd
13 Oct 12 at 11:00 am
Yes, on that I agree. I think your second para (ebb and flow) is right on the money.
dover_beach
13 Oct 12 at 11:03 am
DD – In my view the difference in the debate and which affected Paul Ryan is the difference between talking to an audience that knows the facts and the general public that does not. Ryan’s experience comes from discussion in the House where it is difficult to get away with untruths and misstatements for very long. The unemployment rate went down below eight percent for the first time in 43 months – hardly a worthy test of economic competence – and even then the number had the look of a fiddle as has been noted. Anyway, as the Washington Post further noted, the data also showed “the biggest increase in so-called underemployed Americans since February 2009, during the depths of the Great Recession.” Loved the “so-called” since it is a stat in the same league as the unemployment rate.
Meanwhile Iran really is moving closer to the bomb and whatever nonsense there may be about Iran being “more isolated” than ever, it will make hardly an ounce of difference since even North Korea has the bomb and no one is more isolated than they are. And if you’re not scared about that what does scare you? Romney often talks about a suitcase bomb in New York against which there would be no defence.
And the bit about tax cuts for the rich, it is necessary to understand the American system which means that to raise this rate will raise taxes on a multitude of small firms.
Ryan’s problem – a general problem for Republicans – is that they assume a higher level of knowledge and a better comprehension of the issues. The Democrats, like all the parties of the left, stick to the P.T. Barnum Principle, there’s a sucker born every minute. With population growth being what it is, we’re down to one every ten seconds and the numbers are growing.
Steve Kates
13 Oct 12 at 11:12 am
All of those are good points, Steve, and I agree with you on all of them. But my perception was that Ryan struggled to make those points.
dd
13 Oct 12 at 11:33 am
The Joe Biden debate school
JamesK
13 Oct 12 at 12:20 pm
I think you are correct to say Biden lost on body language and presence-of-mind points. He had a similar problem to the one faced by Obama in the first debate. They both had to control expressions of incredulity when debating opponents who seem to have no hesitation in throwing out fictional positions and statistics just to look like they are winning an argument.
Both Romney and Paul Ryan gave masterful performances, keeping straight and composed faces whilst jumping from one fantasy talking point to the next.
I recall wanting throw something at the screen when Ryan claimed Obama did not call the Libya attack an act of terror for two weeks, when the President called it exactly that on the first day and then again a week later.
Maybe Ryan had an issue with the President not pursuing that description events more fully until he waited for clarity on conflicting reports from the state department and the CIA. Maybe Ryan would have preferred the President to run around like a headless chicken screaming out at US embassies for non-existent messages, and non-existent policies, but thankfully Romney wasn’t president on that day.
Then there was that whopper about Obama being in New York at the same time as Netanyahu. Time and space maybe relative but it doesn’t work quite that dramatically in day-to-day life, even if it is the life of a president.
Ryan also said Obamacare paid for abortions when it only pays for abortions resulting from rape and incest. He quoted a health official as saying one-out-of-six nursing homes and hospital units would go out of business when the original quote said nothing of the sort. Then he claimed the cost-saving panel would have no one who is medically trained when in fact the law stipulates that healthcare professionals must be part of the board.
Also I found it incredulous that Ryan wouldn’t know the status of current national unemployment when their whole campaign is supposedly resting on attacking Obama’s handling of jobs policy.
These were just some of the things that I can remember right now in over a 90 minute performance of etch-a-sketching and story telling.
So yeah I realise that Biden came off a bit hysterical, but considering the wholesale assault on truth happening on the other side I think his composure was admirable.
TC
13 Oct 12 at 12:30 pm
Bullshit. Obama described it as “terror” but also attributed it to a spontaneous protest about a youtube video. that was a fabrication. The attack was planned for weeks beforehand, and Mathews’ knew something was afoot. His requests for extra security were denied. So in the big picture, Obamna misrepresented the Libyan attack as spontaneous when it was not, and he was advised that it was not.
Come off it. Obama snubbed Netanyahu, there is no way to spin that unless you’re actually part of the spin machine yourself.
You’ve used “incredulous” improperly. but at any rate, Ryan made no error on that topic, so your incredulity is misplaced.
yes, he did, and blew his glib talking points.
LOL. He had no composure. That’s why he blew it.
dd
13 Oct 12 at 1:14 pm
oops, correction: “Stevens” not “mathews.”
dd
13 Oct 12 at 1:22 pm
TC regurgitates copypasta from lametard Leftoid site “Fact[LOL]Check” without benefit of a cite. Top stuff.
sdog
13 Oct 12 at 1:45 pm
Bullshit. You didn’t watch it; you didn’t just happen to “recall” those things “off the top of your head” – you’re just pasting in the approved JournoList Talking Points(TM).
No-one here is as stupid as you’d like to believe they are.
sdog
13 Oct 12 at 1:49 pm
Thanks for taking out the trash, dd.
dover_beach
13 Oct 12 at 1:55 pm
Oh, and sdog. That’s how we keep the Cat clean.
dover_beach
13 Oct 12 at 1:57 pm
That one’s straight from the heavily-compromised and oft-beclowned “Politifact” spin machine, DD.
sdog
13 Oct 12 at 2:00 pm
The bit about the drunk uncle was funny, as this is how I previously described him to people – the whacky uncle who drank to much (which is an odd meme for me to use, since I didn’t have any drunk uncles)
From now on, its: Druncle Joe
Fleeced
13 Oct 12 at 2:00 pm
Seconded.
JamesK
13 Oct 12 at 2:04 pm
Skeevy Druncle Joe. I like.
sdog
13 Oct 12 at 2:08 pm
Jennifer Rubin, Wa-po Right-Turn blog: Biden adds to the Libya lies
I actually think it’s far worse than even Rubin suggests.
The electorate now know they have been lied to egregiously by their primary elected officials who outrageously apologised to the Arab world for the actions of an American private citizen exercising his First Amendment rights
JamesK
13 Oct 12 at 2:11 pm
Michael Medved posted this (and he like Prager goes out of his way to avoid hyperbole on his show):
Good work sorting out the trolls sdog (again).
Token
13 Oct 12 at 2:15 pm
Sarah Palin who never mentioned ‘death panels’ in her debate with Joe Biden 4 years earlier (yet another Biden lie) had this to say 2 days before the Biden/Ryan debate:
JamesK
13 Oct 12 at 2:17 pm
Romney after the debate:
“…because the Vice President directly contradicted the sworn testimony of state department officials…”
Video at link.
Token
13 Oct 12 at 2:22 pm
[...] are a few considerations that have emerged in the quite interesting thread following my post on watching the Vice Presidential debate for the second time. First is something I wrote myself. [...]
The more you look, the worse Biden becomes « Law of Markets
13 Oct 12 at 3:40 pm
[...] are a few considerations that have emerged in the quite interesting thread following my post on watching the Vice Presidential debate for the second time. First is something I wrote myself. [...]
The more you look, the worse Biden becomes at Catallaxy Files
13 Oct 12 at 6:21 pm