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The Drum last night

82 comments

The episode of The Drum shown last night on ABC 24 is well worth watching especially from 3:40.

Written by Sinclair Davidson

November 13th, 2012 at 3:06 pm

Posted in Uncategorized

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82 Responses to 'The Drum last night'

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  1. I strongly support the Royal Commision being established but I thought the attitude of a couple of the panellists was pretty appalling.

    Chris

    13 Nov 12 at 3:23 pm

  2. The idea that you don’t report large scale theft to the Police to avoid being a “dobber” is just nuts. Latham is a first class peanut.

    Gibbo

    13 Nov 12 at 3:36 pm

  3. I have no idea why the ABC continue to get Rhys Muldoon to commentate on current events. Great actor but he is a featherweight in the intellectual sphere.

    Lee from WA

    13 Nov 12 at 3:40 pm

  4. Whoops, wrong video clip :)

    Gibbo

    13 Nov 12 at 3:44 pm

  5. Maybe so, Gibbo but it was still a good call on Latham.

    Lloyd

    13 Nov 12 at 3:55 pm

  6. Muldoon :
    “Duuuh, da Catholics are at the pointy end of this.”

    No one on the ‘panel’ had the common sense to ask :
    “Why do you think that Rhys ?”

    Keith

    13 Nov 12 at 4:16 pm

  7. In the modern cargo cult of celebrity the weight given to the opinion of actors and actresses is quite extraordinary. Other than sportsmen and women, it is difficult to think of a collective group of people whose opinion is less worthy of serious consideration.

    H B Bear

    13 Nov 12 at 4:37 pm

  8. Lee – I agree. I don’t understand why they keep getting him back either. Even if they’re just looking for a left-wing viewpoint there are much better people out there that could do that.

    Chris

    13 Nov 12 at 4:47 pm

  9. Rhys Muldoon suggests the government should withhold tax free status from churches until there is an outcome.

    WTF?

    Splatacrobat

    13 Nov 12 at 4:50 pm

  10. The DRUM is an almost left-free zone.

    Scapula

    13 Nov 12 at 4:50 pm

  11. The DRUM is an almost left-free zone.

    In much the same way that your gut is a fat free zone.

    Huckleberry Chunkwot

    13 Nov 12 at 4:52 pm

  12. The DRUM is an almost left-free zone.

    In much the same way that Gillard is a lie-free zone.

    Huckleberry Chunkwot

    13 Nov 12 at 4:53 pm

  13. I can’t wait till tonight when 7.30 dig up some actor or actress to ask them about it? Who knows who we’ll get? Hugh Jackman? Maybe even a foreigna actor like Martin Sheen (a devout Catholic with a very Catholic wife who was supposedly conceived through a rape).

    The Church has survived A LOT WORSE than this RC: Think of Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Bokassa, Kim Jong-Il , Niyazov, Ceausescu, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Mao, Lukashenko, Mussolini, Pinoche, Castro, Garcia, Chavez, Mugabe, Hoxha, Ghaddafi, Hussein, Ho chi Minh, Stroessner or Duvalier (“Doc”) who rewrote the Lord’s prayer to read “Our Doc, who art in Heaven”

    The RCC survived them all (and this was only the 20th Century). The RCC will certainly survive an RC. :-)

    Lysander Spooner

    13 Nov 12 at 4:57 pm

  14. Will a Royal Commission into institutionalised sexual abuse of children include those religious orders who advocate and practice female genital mutilation?

    Major Elvis Newton

    13 Nov 12 at 5:01 pm

  15. I have no idea why the ABC continue to get Rhys Muldoon to commentate on current events. Great actor but he is a featherweight in the intellectual sphere.

    He is the ABC’s vile male version of Merieke Hardy. I have posted on the OT in the past a vile statement he made.

    When I raised it with him politely he blocked me.

    Token

    13 Nov 12 at 5:02 pm

  16. What did Pinochet or Stroessner ever do to the Catholic Hurch?

    dragnet

    13 Nov 12 at 5:03 pm

  17. …and Musso gave them The Vatican state!

    dragnet

    13 Nov 12 at 5:04 pm

  18. “He is the ABC’s vile male version of Merieke Hardy.”
    I wish you hadn’t said that. I’ve got to bang my head to gety the image out of my head.

    ken n

    13 Nov 12 at 5:07 pm

  19. What apalling bigotry from the panel – with just one exception trying to save them from looking like the self-appointed Jury.

    [Edited. Sinc]

    Amfortas

    13 Nov 12 at 5:12 pm

  20. Pell needs to stop trying to deflect blame from his own institution.

    Scapula

    13 Nov 12 at 5:13 pm

  21. Meanwhile, the Australian Bolshevik Collective is studiously ignoring the fact that it’s fellow left-wing deviants, perverts and peddo’s at Buggering Britain’s Children, Boy Bonking Communists, Bolsheviks Bungholing Children Bestial British Carnalists… erm… the British Bolshevik Collective seem to have a teensy little problem with being caught out having spent the last thirty years procuring moppets for kiddie-fiddlers while encouraging perversion and deviancy from the top to the bottom of the entire organisation.

    But hey, these geniuses are smart enough to try and cover it by falsely accusing a conservative politician of what they themselves have been doing on an industrial scale for thirty years.

    Who said lefties are not clever?

    Mk50 of Brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 5:15 pm

  22. Gonna be interesting though. Royal Commissions are uncontrollable. If it runs a full out anti-Catholic line, it will upset as many in the ALP as it will damage Abbott.
    And then there are the boy scouts, police boys clubs, all sorts of schools. All they need is one or two in each to say there was a coverup.
    I have not been following it, but my guess is that the Catholic church has been raked over pretty well so they will need to find something new and unexpected.

    ken n

    13 Nov 12 at 5:15 pm

  23. I have no idea why the ABC continue to get Rhys Muldoon to commentate on current events. Great actor but he is a featherweight in the intellectual sphere.

    The man’s a published author in a political collaboration without equal in the history of our country.

    Myrrdin Seren

    13 Nov 12 at 5:18 pm

  24. LOL.

    C.L.

    13 Nov 12 at 5:19 pm

  25. How’s about we start crowdsourcing a submission to the RC regarding the culture of sexual abuse of children in the ALP?

    After all, AFAIK they have had more people gaoled for kiddieprn and sexual abuse of children than the Catholic Church in Australia has.

    Mk50 of Brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 5:20 pm

  26. Curious that the BBC bloke molested all those children.

    After all, he was free to marry.

    C.L.

    13 Nov 12 at 5:21 pm

  27. Hurrah…..this will therefore include bush Aboriginal old men with their promised child brides and concealed 3rd world African Muzzie immigrant female genital mutilation.

    Should be fun……unless someone pikes.

    Alfonso

    13 Nov 12 at 5:26 pm

  28. After all, AFAIK they have had more people gaoled for kiddieprn and sexual abuse of children than the Catholic Church in Australia has.

    You truly obnoxious, offensive moron.

    Try reading this list for an idea of how many offenders you are going to have to “crowdsource” to match the long list of Catholic offenders and victims.

    And stop trying to be funny on the topic, as per your 5.15 pm comment.

    steve from brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 5:32 pm

  29. You truly obnoxious, offensive moron.

    Do you ever stop talking about yourself, SFB? Really.

    Gab

    13 Nov 12 at 5:38 pm

  30. Dragnet says: “What did Pinochet or Stroessner do to hurt that Catholic Hurch”

    You don’t read much Dragnet? Unless you were joking?

    C.L: Right on!

    Steve from Brisbane: Should that be SFB or SOB? Ken has a point mate. There has been plenty of abuse in State (and other) organisations mate. Take your Catholic bashing elsewhere mate – its about CHILDREN! Not your political vulgarity.

    Lysander Spooner

    13 Nov 12 at 5:39 pm

  31. Only if they are Catholic Aborigines with child-brides and Catholic muslim labia-loppers who can be linked to Abbottabbottabbott, Alfonso

    Mk50 of Brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 5:46 pm

  32. Lysander, he’s known here as ‘Shitfer’, and is a renowned semenologist and butt-plug aficionado.

    Yes, these are his good points.

    He’s also a shill for totalitarians, and believes wikipedia is the be-all and end-all source for everything, especially after he’s just amended it.

    Mk50 of Brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 5:50 pm

  33. Not your political vulgarity.

    I’ll tell you what “political vulgarity” is, you idiot: it’s the never ending quest here to pin your a “child abusers” tag onto your Left wing political opponents.

    steve from brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 5:52 pm

  34. You may be right Lysander, perhaps I don’t read enough! I understood the gist of the post that gave rise to my comment but I was genuinely perplexed by the inclusion of Pinochet and Stroessner in that list of anti-Catholic tyrants, I thought that they were pretty neutral toward it. Tell me how I am wrong and save me some Googling!

    dragnet

    13 Nov 12 at 5:55 pm

  35. After all, AFAIK they have had more people gaoled for kiddieprn and sexual abuse

    as far as you know, which clearly isn’t very far.

    SteveC

    13 Nov 12 at 5:55 pm

  36. Bravehearts study into Child sexual abuse

    94% of abuse occurs in the home.
    Some stats on reported abuses in Catholic churches overseas but none in Australia?

    Rys Muldoon said “the Catholic church is at the pointy end of this”. In part he is right but the correct analogy should have been “the church is just the exposed tip of an iceberg, the bulk of the abuse berg is under the murky waters of the rest of the community.

    Splatacrobat

    13 Nov 12 at 6:01 pm

  37. I could name names (but won’t because I’ll be banned) about people in the judiciary and the court bureaucracy in my city of residence who had an arrangement with the local orphanage/state ward home.

    No complaints to people in positions of government about this situation changed matters for these under-aged boys and girls being pandered to the judiciary and their facilitators until a local “colourful identity” took matters to a different level.

    The only catholic involved in solving this matter was the “colourful identity.”

    mareeS

    13 Nov 12 at 6:03 pm

  38. Rhys Muldoon suggests the government should withhold tax free status from churches until there is an outcome.
    WTF?

    I don’t think it should be linked to the RC at all, but long term I think the tax free status of churches should be looked at. Allow tax concessions for activities that normal charities would be permitted, but not for other activities.

    Chris

    13 Nov 12 at 6:07 pm

  39. it’s the never ending quest here to pin your (sic) a “child abusers” tag onto your left wing political opponents.

    Spoken like a true idiot.

    Look up the court records, you monstrous, amoral arsehole.

    Rabz

    13 Nov 12 at 6:09 pm

  40. Pell smears the media at the cost of his own moral authority.

    Scapula

    13 Nov 12 at 6:10 pm

  41. Hiya Dragnet; sorry I don’t have a lot of time but Stroessner persecuted the Church for all of his decades in power. He shut down free thinking Catholic institutions and openly murdered “seditious” Catholics as well.

    Pinochet was guilty of more or less the same (however he is sometimes {wrongly IMHO} written up as pro-Catholic when he certainly wasn’t).

    :-)

    Lysander Spooner

    13 Nov 12 at 6:10 pm

  42. Got to agree with the consensus here about muldoon’s view on this matter.

    You’d be better off asking a pot plant.

    Rabz

    13 Nov 12 at 6:10 pm

  43. Rabz – thankyou for paraphrasing from my mind (well done!!!)

    Steve from Brisbane – I’ve never made a comment EVER on this website smearing “lefties” as I am one. But I am also a righty. True Libertarians such as me are both left and right wing and, at the same time, none of the above. Its complicated…but we are generally right (as in, we always win).

    You, on the other hand are trying to use these atrocities to your (apparent) “political gain” which makes you a leech; sucking off the suffering of others to create yet more pain. This is about abused children; not a lynch mob against all those whom you hate and fear.

    That makes you vulgar.

    Lysander Spooner

    13 Nov 12 at 6:20 pm

  44. Bravehearts study into Child sexual abuse

    94% of abuse occurs in the home.

    Hmmm….and the there’s SFB:

    Try reading this list for an idea of how many offenders you are going to have to “crowdsource” to match the long list of Catholic offenders and victims.

    Had a look SFB, it says

    As at August 2011, according to Broken Rites, a support and advocacy group for church-related sex abuse victims, there have been over one hundred cases where Catholic priests have been charged for child sex offences in Australia,

    Hmmm…

    The hate hysterics need to calm down before they injure themselves.

    Gab

    13 Nov 12 at 6:23 pm

  45. Sue Cato was fantastic.

    Abu Chowdah

    13 Nov 12 at 6:29 pm

  46. Agreed Abu, Sue was polite, persistent and determined in not letting those two mental lightweights get away with the more outrageous, fact-free statements.

    Megan

    13 Nov 12 at 6:35 pm

  47. Sue was polite, persistent and determined in not letting those two mental lightweights get away with the more outrageous, fact-free statements.

    Facts don’t draw as much attention as fact-free emotive bullshit.

    Gab

    13 Nov 12 at 6:39 pm

  48. Like all liars Gab, and especially one as prolific as shitfer, they always lose track of their pathetic lies and get caught out all the fucking time.

    I’m surprised every relative of shitfer, including the distant ones, haven’t all died of shame.

    harrys on the boat

    13 Nov 12 at 6:43 pm

  49. I have no idea why the ABC continue to get Rhys Muldoon to commentate on current events. Great actor but he is a featherweight in the intellectual sphere.

    Rhys Muldoon is a tosser and also a very poor actor.

    Lotsa good actors are tossers so Rhys should be very bitter.

    Oh wait..

    JamesK

    13 Nov 12 at 6:43 pm

  50. Anyone want to bet that this gets out of control of the ALP like everything else has? I welcome the RC, but I can’t help but feel that there’s a venomous political angle to it as well.

    I’m not religious and certainly not Catholic, but I don’t want to see an institution singled out here. The scope should be broad, but already there are many like those twits on the Drum getting stuck into the RCC by default.

    tbh

    13 Nov 12 at 6:47 pm

  51. Harry:

    I’m surprised every relative of shitfer, including the distant ones, haven’t all died of shame.

    At the risk of hyperbowl…

    Misogynist!

    :)

    Mk50 of Brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 6:55 pm

  52. Steve from Brisbane – I’ve never made a comment EVER on this website smearing “lefties” as I am one. But I am also a righty. True Libertarians such as me are both left and right wing and, at the same time, none of the above. Its complicated…but we are generally right (as in, we always win).

    The last line confirms you’re just a deluded goose.

    steve from brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 6:58 pm

  53. Sorry, Harry, just…couldn’t…. resist….

    Mk50 of Brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 6:59 pm

  54. those twits on the Drum getting stuck into the RCC by default.

    People who want a big overweening government with absolute power always go after religions.

    Naturally their impulse to control means they only give opportunistic attention to the democratic process, aware that they could not achieve power through ballots, but only through appointment.

    Aqualung

    13 Nov 12 at 7:05 pm

  55. I guess it depends what dictionary Judge Mordy uses when deliberating on peoples “hurty” feelings, Mk.

    harrys on the boat

    13 Nov 12 at 7:09 pm

  56. Well, that’s a moveable feast, Harry!

    Mk50 of Brisbane

    13 Nov 12 at 7:14 pm

  57. Following sfb’s link (5:32) the list consists of a couple of dozen criminal convictions Australia-wide for offences over 50 years. They seem to have peaked in the mid-1970s.
    There is no excuse of course for the harm that was caused to victims of those criminal acts.
    Apparently the Melbourne archdiocese conducted it’s own ‘in-house’ inquiry which resulted in financial compensation to over 300 complainants — a big mistake which has only foster the undercurrent of suspicion of all Catholic clergy.
    All those allegations should have been referred to the police and any financial assistance directed to legal advice in pressing the charges.
    Apriorism, a form of circular reasoning which occurs in all witch-hunts, was on display in that The Drum segment.
    Priests used guns, dogs in abuse: inquiry … those priests should be prevented from patrolling school yards carrying AK47s.

    manalive

    13 Nov 12 at 7:46 pm

  58. Will the Royal Commission investigate all religions and religious institutions, not just Christian ones?
    Will it investigate state schools?

    dd

    13 Nov 12 at 7:47 pm

  59. Priests used guns, dogs in abuse: inquiry …

    Really? There’s evidence for this not just hearsay?

    Gab

    13 Nov 12 at 7:49 pm

  60. Will the Royal Commission investigate all religions and religious institutions, not just Christian ones?
    Will it investigate state schools?

    An interesting add on to the investigation would be Female genital mutilation in Australia. That’s basically child abuse.

    JC

    13 Nov 12 at 7:50 pm

  61. Female genital mutilation in Australia.

    including those who are sent overseas for the mutilation.

    Gab

    13 Nov 12 at 7:51 pm

  62. copy of an e mail I’ve just received:

    Will the Heiner affair be included in the Royal Commission? ( Who shredded the evidence?) Will Kevin Rudd and Quentin Bryce be investigated?

    http://www.heineraffair.info/site_pages/The_Heiner_Affair-Whats_it_all_about.html
    They include Prime Minister Kevin Rudd – Mr Goss’s former chief-of-staff – the Governor-General Quentin Bryce, who took no action after requesting and receiving a report on the affair from then Premier Peter Beattie in 2003, and six serving Queensland judicial officers.

    http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/news/goss/
    THIS (18 mBYTE DOWNLOAD), LINKED ABOVE, IS A PUBLIC DOCUMENT RELEASED IN AUGUST BY THE 2012 QUEENSLAND CHILD PROTECTION COMMISSION OF INQUIRY SO YOU MAY VIEW IT AND COMMENT ON ITS FINDINGS WITHOUT ANY FEARS OF BEING SUED FOR DEFAMATION. REMEMBER TO USE THE PASSWORD “Tsisrep2012″ TO OPEN IT
    More background information:
    On 8 August 2012 – a date which may live long in Australian history – the Queensland Child Protection Commission of Inquiry (QCPCI) released the unredacted Rofe QC Audit of the Heiner Affair as a privileged public exhibit under the Commissions of Inquiry Act 1950.
    It is now available for the world to read, discuss and quote from as a privileged public document.
    It is, and shall be seen as, an historically important document in the political, legal, democratic life of this nation.

    Well asked!

    val majkus

    13 Nov 12 at 7:52 pm

  63. That episode of the Drum could only have been put to air by an organisation swimming in government cash and freed of the commercial imperative to find a paying audience.

    Tom

    13 Nov 12 at 7:59 pm

  64. Rhys was trembling. Barely able to hold it together while he climbed higher and higher on the stupid ladder. Bringing back those memories. Like Conroy at the ALP conference.

    Tiny Dancer

    13 Nov 12 at 8:13 pm

  65. Is ‘Rhys Muldoon from Brisbane’ ?

    jumpnmcar

    13 Nov 12 at 8:18 pm

  66. Really? There’s evidence for this not just hearsay?

    Gab, I was attempting a bit of droll humour into a depressing subject.

    manalive

    13 Nov 12 at 8:18 pm

  67. According to Steve’s bible he was born at Newcastle and lives at Katoomba.

    Would have been bashed in your average Qld pub. And locked up by the constabulary. They wouldn’t like his whining.

    Tiny Dancer

    13 Nov 12 at 8:20 pm

  68. ehearts study into Child sexual abuse

    94% of abuse occurs in the home.

    Interesting.

    And odd.

    After all, those men are free to marry.

    C.L.

    13 Nov 12 at 8:22 pm

  69. An interesting add on to the investigation would be Female genital mutilation in Australia. That’s basically child abuse

    There is no doubt that under Australian law that it is both considered to be child abuse and illegal. There is currently at least one case going through the courts.

    Will the Royal Commission investigate all religions and religious institutions, not just Christian ones?
    Will it investigate state schools?

    It is very clear from the announcement that it covers both religious and secular institutions. As well as organisations associated with previous investigations such as the role the police forces have played.

    Chris

    13 Nov 12 at 8:23 pm

  70. Female genital mutilation in Australia.

    including those who are sent overseas for the mutilation.

    That too is illegal under Australian law. And doctors who have knowledge about it – eg I’d they examine a child for something else and notice it are compelled by law to report it. Which brings up the other topic whether religious leaders should continue to have an exemption to compulsory notification laws in the case of child abuse. Or whether they too should have a legal obligation to report such matters if they become aware of them.

    Chris

    13 Nov 12 at 8:29 pm

  71. both child abuse and illegal

    Tautology alert. The sort of child abuse the RC is to investigate would be both, ipso facto, would it not? We’re not talking about verbal abuse here.

    blogstrop

    13 Nov 12 at 8:40 pm

  72. It has taken an inordinate amount of time for FGM and honor killings to be highlighted and assiduously pursued and prosecuted. They have been a blind spot for too long, lower on the media priority list than animal welfare.

    blogstrop

    13 Nov 12 at 8:42 pm

  73. Or whether they too should have a legal obligation to report such matters if they become aware of them.

    Are you referring to the confessional or general information given freely.

    There is a difference.

    Carpe Jugulum

    13 Nov 12 at 8:43 pm

  74. Are you referring to the confessional or general information given freely.

    There is a difference.

    Both. Though the latter may already be covered.

    The sort of child abuse the RC is to investigate would be both, ipso facto, would it not? We’re not talking about verbal abuse here.

    Yes, if its happening under the cover/control of an institution then it certainly would be covered. It’s likely that occurrences of reporting of this happening will increase over the next few years as victims become old enough and independent enough to do so. At the moment they’re really only getting discovered when someone close to the family reports it.

    Chris

    13 Nov 12 at 8:50 pm

  75. Muldoon :
    “Duuuh, da Catholics are at the pointy end of this.”

    Well, he’s wearing his pointy white hood.

    Nic

    13 Nov 12 at 8:52 pm

  76. As well as suspending the tax free status of the Church shouldn’t their property be seized for the duration as well? Can’t they be interned? Shouldn’t children at catholic schools be placed under the care of the state for their own protection?

    Reese Muldoons cv consists of one word. Clown.

    Pickles

    13 Nov 12 at 8:57 pm

  77. Yes Chris the latter would be covered and i would expect any right thinking person to report that to police.

    The confessional is another kettle of fish entirely.

    if its happening under the cover/control of an institution

    I’m not sure what you mean, can you elaborate?

    Carpe Jugulum

    13 Nov 12 at 9:01 pm

  78. This RC is a tough gig, even IF they can quantify the abuses by occupation or group, the data can only consist of admitted or convicted examples ( usually known many years after the crime )
    If folks are hoping for a snapshot of CSA in 2012, not going to happen.
    If the real goal is to reveal systematic coverups then who else other than churches ( institution not the structure ) can this be about ?
    Scouts or sporting clubs maybe, but you can bet your house that ” non church educators ” will get a clean bill of health.

    jumpnmcar

    13 Nov 12 at 9:21 pm

  79. “I could name names (but won’t because I’ll be banned) about people in the judiciary and the court bureaucracy in my city of residence who had an arrangement with the local orphanage/state ward home.”

    Would that be Li*****, MareeS?

    Winston Smith

    13 Nov 12 at 9:49 pm

  80. The confessional is another kettle of fish entirely.

    I’m yet to be convinced that this exception can be justified in the cases where someone knows of ongoing abuse of a child (doctor/patient confidentiality doesn’t hold in such cases for example). Of course no one can force a priest to disclose, but that doesn’t mean they should not be held criminally liable for not doing so.

    I’m not sure what you mean, can you elaborate?

    From my understanding the RC is being setup to look at institutionalised abuse. So it wouldn’t cover FGM cases where some parents work by themselves to get it done (say sending their child overseas or getting someone else locally to do it). But if the local leaders at the mosque helped to organise it, and especially so if there was pattern of leaders at various mosques doing so, then it would be covered.

    Chris

    13 Nov 12 at 10:07 pm

  81. In the modern cargo cult of celebrity the weight given to the opinion of actors and actresses is quite extraordinary. Other than sportsmen and women, it is difficult to think of a collective group of people whose opinion is less worthy of serious consideration.

    Especially since the nose of the acting community worldwide (note emphasis) isn’t exactly clean on the matter of young children being buggered; is it, Mr Polanski?

    I smell a distraction and an anti-Catholic witch-hunt. This is the warmup to the dirtiest election in Australian history. Here’s hoping it backfires on Gillard in the same way the mud-smearing backfired on Bligh.

    perturbed

    14 Nov 12 at 3:41 am

  82. Having worked in the industry, I know that actors and popular musicians are overwhelmingly left-wing. In the US, people like Wayne and Heston and Reagan were standouts because almost all of their contemporaries were lefties.

    As individuals, these performers tend to be insecure, impractical and governed by their emotions rather than their brains. That’s why they change spouses/partners like underwear. That’s why so many of them go into a major decline if they are out of the limelight for any length of time. Their personal lives are frequently a complete disaster.

    I’ve met and worked with many of them, and they are the last people in the world to take advice from on anything other than their specific skill set, with a very few honourable exceptions.

    johanna

    14 Nov 12 at 4:10 am

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