Woman in a man’s world?

So this snippet in the AFR caught my eye (emphasis added):

During her keynote address to the Business Council of Australia’s recent annual dinner, Prime Minister Julia Gillard said that she was looking forward to seeing a healthier flow of women up to the top leadership roles in business, “where I’m sure that in a couple of years’ time I won’t still find myself meeting with boards where the only other woman is serving food”. In saying this, the PM would have observed about 95 per cent of the BCA dinner attendees were white Caucasian males, with very few women present. Although the catering staff serving the food did seem to be about half male and female. One of the few women CEOs attending told me that the event made her feel like an imposter who didn’t belong in a room of Australia’s leading CEOs and Chairmen.

My first thought was that if anyone is so busy wondering about their gender they’re probably not thinking too much about the shareholders. I’m quite sure that if the shareholders are happy with their returns that they couldn’t care less about the management of the firm, or the gender distribution of the board.

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157 Responses to Woman in a man’s world?

  1. ar

    One of the few women CEOs attending told me that the event made her feel like an imposter who didn’t belong in a room of Australia’s leading CEOs and Chairmen.

    If she got there on the back of a gender-quota then she certainly is an imposter and her feelings are warranted.

  2. Hoddle Boulevard

    When Gillard came to power, six of the top dozen positions in the land were held by women.

    Queen
    Prime Minister
    Govenor General
    GG NSW
    Premier NSW
    Premier Qld

    Not bad for a sexist society!

  3. Sinclair Davidson

    ar – I’d be surprised if there was much (any?) quota driven appointments at that level. Which makes the comment even more surprising. Did she really mean it? Was she just being polite? Saying what was expected? A person at that level (actually) suffering from that sort of self-doubt isn’t going to be very good at her job.

  4. Rabz

    Don’t you just love the way the left have ditched their former obsession with ‘merit’ and reverted to victimology and tokenism?

    Gee, I wonder, why?

    The harshest critics of women I’ve encountered in my life have been women.

    They’ve been well placed to pass judgement, one must say.

  5. dover_beach

    I’d be worried if I were Steadman as Gillard seems to be constantly thinking of ‘mussels’.

  6. Supplice

    Juila Gillard, of Emily’s List fame, wanting her little group to infiltrate the private sector “in a couple of years” after she and all of her equally opportuned Labor ex-MP’s find they can’t get a crust anywhere else?

    On the other hand, there’s the whole “wreck capitalism” aspect to her and her ilk.

  7. Token

    If she got there on the back of a gender-quota then she certainly is an imposter and her feelings are warranted.

    Tokenism does not provide the “beneficiaries” relief from their insecurities.

  8. C.L.

    …attendees were white Caucasian males, with very few women present.

    Bligh, Kirner, Keneally, Lawrence, Gillard, Roxon, Bryce, Milne…

    …attendees were white Caucasian males, with very few women present.

    Good.

  9. Rabz

    Tokenism does not provide the “beneficiaries” relief from their insecurities.

    Much less their inadequacies…

  10. C.L.

    White Caucasian males built the greatest civilisation in human history, by the way.

    Without it, women – who contributed virtually nothing to its technical and philosophical hallmarks – would still be gathering berries and dying in childbirth more often than not.

  11. candy

    Quite a put down to catering staff, male and female, who take pride in their work, have qualifications to do so, and working at a dinner where the PM is present would be a prized job for catering staff. They would have to be right up to scratch.

    How condescending to be put down as just “serving food”.

  12. C.L.

    Good point, Candy.

    Do you think Gillard could do that waitress’s job?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlIRu1l33VA&feature=fvsr

    A food server is a useful person. Gillard isn’t.

  13. Milton von Smith

    if anyone is so busy wondering about their gender they’re probably not thinking too much about the shareholders.

    Substitute “voters” for “shareholders” and you’ve described Gillard perfectly.

  14. .

    Serving food is better than ripping off orphans and widows and fucking up the economy.

  15. And yet the favourite target of Gillard’s (and her supporters’) invective against greedy CEOs is… Gina Rinehart. Fucking hypocrite.

  16. m0nty

    White Caucasian males built the greatest civilisation in human history, by the way.

    Which one is that? I’m pretty sure most of them were built on the subjugation and/or extermination of people who weren’t white Caucasian males.

  17. lotocoti

    Strike me pink:

    High gender equality also produces a knock-on benefit to other KPIs on the diversity scorecard – aged workers, indigenous, LGBTI, and people with disability.

    Is your company still struggling despite gender parity at board level?
    Skip to 1:40.

  18. Fuck off, MOnty, you worthless quisling troll.

  19. Judith Sloan

    What complete tosh. I was at that dinner and there were plenty of women there. And in the vast majority of ASX 100 companies, at least one woman and sometimes more sit on the boards.

    Get over it, everyone. Compete on merit, not gender.

  20. m0nty

    Less than 10 per cent of ASX 500 directorships are held by women and more than half operate without even one female director.

    The recent growth for women has been in non-executive director roles. Shamefully, in 2012, women represent only 3.8 per cent of all the ASX 500 executive director roles.

  21. C.L.

    I’m pretty sure most of them were built on the subjugation and/or extermination of people who weren’t white Caucasian males.

    You were also “pretty sure” that Peter Slipper would return to the Speaker’s chair in triumph.

  22. C.L.

    Less than 10 per cent of ASX 500 directorships are held by women and more than half operate without even one female director.

    Good.

  23. Gab

    One of the few women CEOs attending told me that the event made her feel like an imposter who didn’t belong in a room of Australia’s leading CEOs and Chairmen.

    Indeed. Happens a lot…

    When Women Feel Like Frauds They Fuel Their Own Failures

    The “impostor syndrome” was discovered by psychologists Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes in 1978, and according to a longtime lecturer on the phenomenon, Valerie Young, Ed.D., little has changed in the last three decades—except that more women than ever are susceptible.

    Young, the author of new book The Secret Thoughts of Successful Women, describes it as “always waiting for the other shoe to drop. You feel as if you’ve flown under the radar, been lucky or that they just like you. If you dismiss your accomplishments and abilities, you’re left with one conclusion: That you’ve fooled them.”

    While both men and women experience the impostor syndrome, studies show that women are more often affected and more likely to suffer the consequences.

    Get a grip. If you believe you’re a fraud/imposter of skills then why would you even apply for the top jobs? Wonder how many women actually want the jobs at the big end? How many actually apply? Why is this even about gender and not merit?

  24. Token

    Less than 10 per cent of ASX 500 directorships are held by women and more than half operate without even one female director.

    How many female directors have you got M0nty in your company?

    What other minorities are being excluded from your male policy of excluding the victims of society?

  25. Alfonso

    Personally I’m shocked at the lack of one legged Aboriginals in senior management and believe with fervour that a legal quota of those appointments should be dependant on that characteristic… not those dreaded patriarchal constructs, competence and talent.

  26. Token

    What complete tosh. I was at that dinner and there were plenty of women there. And in the vast majority of ASX 100 companies, at least one woman and sometimes more sit on the boards.

    Yes complete tosh. With competition and margins so tight, what company can afford to descriminate?

    The PM would not say it if she did not see a vote in it. Part of the building of constituencies via victimhood the Left is playing globally.

  27. m0nty

    How many female directors have you got M0nty in your company?

    Aaaaahahahahahaha, nice try Token. I am a sole trader.

  28. HH

    It’s always amusing to see the left tie itself in knots, on the on hand portraying capitalist bosses in stovepipe hats as intrinsically evil, and then complaining that not enough of these monsters are women.

    Reminds me of Woody Allen’s joke about two Jewish women in a restaurant: “This food is terrible!” says one. “Yeah, and they don’t give you much either” says the other.

  29. Sinclair Davidson

    What complete tosh. I was at that dinner and there were plenty of women there.

    But there is only one Judith Sloan!

  30. Sinclair Davidson

    I am a sole trader.

    So … no women?

  31. ar

    What complete tosh. I was at that dinner and there were plenty of women there.

    Whaaaat? That would mean our PM is lying… It couldn’t be!

  32. m0nty

    I’m an equal opportunity discriminator in denying board positions to both men and women, Sinc.

  33. brc

    Why does it not occur to people that maybe the number of women who want to make it to board level, and have the skills and background, just aren’t as equal in supply as the men? Getting to that level takes a lot of dedication and hard work over a long period.

    Nobody discusses the gender anamolies in other industries, it’s always about executive level positions. Unless there is specific evidence of people being passed over due to gender, then it’s just a case of the outcomes reflecting the inputs. This is a tiny group of people in proportion to the workforce, and a very specialized role. Why not a study on gender imbalance in neurosurgery, or airline pilots, or any other specialized field?

  34. Token

    Aaaaahahahahahaha, nice try Token. I am a sole trader.

    So you conform to the male stereotypes outlined by the PM in her speech.

    Shame on you for your efforts ensuring wymmyn remain unrepresented at the decision making level.

  35. m0nty

    I can assure you, Token, that women make a lot of decisions for me in my house. :)

  36. Gab

    It’s good that you listen to your mother, monty.

  37. Token

    Good news M0nty :) It makes a happy home.

    So are you telling people some good news and confronting the 40yo virgin canard?

  38. m0nty

    Token, it makes me laugh the way people carry on with that meme. Far be it from me to interrupt their mistake.

  39. Gab

    Anyway, back to the topic of this post… well said BRC.

  40. Token

    Why does it not occur to people that maybe the number of women who want to make it to board level, and have the skills and background, just aren’t as equal in supply as the men? Getting to that level takes a lot of dedication and hard work over a long period.

    In the real world the twin demands for “flexibility” and then equality at the executive level (which requires extraordinary sacrifice) can never be met.

    I know it is not PC, but has there ever been stats on the # of men v women who actively state they do not seek the top rungs as they value a balanced life more?

  41. lotocoti

    Nobody discusses the gender anamolies in other industries, it’s always about executive level positions.

    Just imagine the improvements missed by Raytheon Industries by not having gender equity in engineering and design.
    (Apart from ordnance singing Soft Kitty at detonation, obviously.)

  42. candy

    This sexism stuff is pretty outdated. Young girls today are brought up and educated at school with the encouragement that they can achieve whatever they want to.

    I’m not sure who Ms Gillard is referring to in this matter, it seems pointless and 20 years out of date.

  43. Max

    Elizabeth Nosworthy

    - Chair of Commander Communications = Bankrupted
    - Chair of Babcock and Brown = Bankrupted
    - Chair 2020 summit of sustainability, climate change and water = gone nowhere
    - Director Ventracor = Bankrupted
    - Chair of the Queensland Water Commission before the Brisbane floods. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/dont-be-irresponsible-qwc/2008/02/07/1202233989111.html

  44. Token

    This sexism stuff is pretty outdated. Young girls today are brought up and educated at school with the encouragement that they can achieve whatever they want to.

    Unfortunately it is a crutch for those who wish to excuse their own failing through the cloak of victimhood.

    Too many times across may career I’ve actuall heard women who lose competitions for positions based upon hard work and talent trot out claims of a “Men’s Club”.

    Having worked with the relevant candidates over a number of years it was clear the correct decision was made, yet the lazy and inept needed an excuse to run to so they could avoid facing the fact they needed to change to move forward.

  45. Oblique

    Gillard has set the feminist cause or at least the perception of womens rights back two decades. Playing the victim card in such a caustic scheming manner may cause employers/boards to think twice before engaging them, particularly those to very high profile positions. Thanks for nothing Julia, you selfish slapper!

  46. Gab

    Funnily enough, every job (bar the first job) I held has always been in male dominated sectors. My gender was never a factor.

  47. Sinclair Davidson

    I’m an equal opportunity discriminator in denying board positions to both men and women, Sinc.

    But, but, but. You are a man running a company. Where is the gender balance?

  48. The reason that there are so few women at the top of the corporate food chain is down to two simple reasons.

    1. They take fewer risks with their assets and careers; and
    2. They work fewer hours than men (which also largely explains income disparity).

    There are many more men prepared to work 6.5 day weeks, 7AM at work, 10PM home for 20 years than there are women, who don’t define their worth by what they do in the same way men do.

    Over time the net effect of men who work all those extra hours and take risks that they learn from (especially when they fail) significantly increases their chances of ending up at the top when compared to others who don’t put in the effort – both men and women.

    As an example, one could wonder why there are so many fewer women surgeons than male surgeons when men and women do equally well in their studies and graduate in roughly equal numbers? What you see is that women are choosing roles that have defined 9-5 work hours while men choose roles that are harder and thus more financially rewarding even though it involves many more hours. This explains why there are so many female radiographers, for example. It’s not discrimination it’s self selection.

    At the end of the day society is better served having the people who’ve done the 20 years of 7AM-10PM, 6.5 days per week work at the top of its organisations than having politically connected women, gays, Aborigines or any other so-called disadvantaged group.

  49. tbh

    I work at an ASX 200 company and we have a woman on the board. She got there on merit, due to her outstanding track record. No need for quotas.

    My sister, a Gen X’er like myself, was brought up to believe that she could have any job she wanted if she did the hard yards. She’s now a very successful stock broker and highly educated.

    Many of the women I’ve worked with have gone on to have very successful careers, including one who is a chief executive of a fairly large company. None of the successful women I know play the victim card. They all got there due to their own efforts.

  50. Luke

    Something I’ve noticed about the gender-feminists is that they don’t even bother claiming ‘equality’ anymore. Now it’s always ‘diversity’. Not merit, not equality, not ability just ‘diversity’.

    I see they are very vocal about women’s quotas etc for directors roles but you never see them claiming diversity in other areas of life. No ones demanding quotas in the mines, the waste collection industry, or even the trades.

    The way this mob carry on you’d think that males are all guaranteed high paying top jobs and for some inexplicable reason 99% of males just turn it down to do their preferred lower paid manual labour.

    I was reading this gem yesterday (Changing the rules > The experiences of female lawyers in Victoria [VIC humans rights commission]) where they actually claim (page 43) that paying people based on billable hours has “…led to the embedding of systemic disadvantage for women in the profession”. So apparently paying people based on how much work they do – regardless of gender – is now evidence of discrimination against women.

    Why is that I get the impression that modern feminism has simply become, “whatever women want is their right to have and everyone else’s responsibility to give”. Oh and consequences and possibility are not considered relevant considerations/limitations.

  51. m0nty

    But, but, but. You are a man running a company. Where is the gender balance?

    Technically it’s not a company. I just work for myself. I am 100% male, personally, but I apologise to no one for this. :)

  52. harrys on the boat

    ” But, but, but. You are a man running a company. Where is the gender balance?”

    His mum still makes his packed lunch, cleans his bedroom and does his washing and ironing, surely this counts?

  53. Sinclair Davidson

    I just work for myself.

    What?? When you could be creating job opportunities for women? What sort of selfish git are you?

  54. twostix

    Which one is that? I’m pretty sure most of them were built on the subjugation and/or extermination of people who weren’t white Caucasian males.

    The one that allows a snivvelling self hating beta male like you to run a “fantasy football” website yet still live a life of slothful leisure while never having to worry about who is going to shoulder you as a burden in your old age while making beta male snarky remarks about “subjugation and extermination” before stuffing another doughnut in your mouth.

    That one.

  55. harrys on the boat

    To appease Sinc, just treat yourself to a female assistant or secretary, m0nts. And in true Emily Lister style recruit the one with the biggest tits.

  56. m0nty

    You’re all class, harry.

  57. C.L.

    - Chair of Commander Communications = Bankrupted
    - Chair of Babcock and Brown = Bankrupted
    - Chair 2020 summit of sustainability, climate change and water = gone nowhere
    - Director Ventracor = Bankrupted

    Julia Gillard, law partner – S&G: sacked.
    Julia Gillard, chairman – Australia: bankrupted.

  58. m0nty

    What?? When you could be creating job opportunities for women? What sort of selfish git are you?

    In the words of a great Scotsman: I’m giving her all she’s got, Captain!

  59. Infidel tiger

    I am 100% male

    Thats the spirit. Never stop believing.

  60. Sinclair Davidson

    I’m giving her all she’s got, Captain!

    LOL – that is good. I’m going to use that line.

  61. Rabz

    Julia Gillard, law partner – S&G: sacked.
    Julia Gillard, chairman – Australia: bankrupted.

    You missed one:

    Julia Gillard, President of AUS – collapsed.

  62. papachango

    Less than 10 per cent of ASX 500 directorships are held by women and more than half operate without even one female director.

    The recent growth for women has been in non-executive director roles

    Just a wild guess, but could this possibly be that the vast majority of competent, professional women aren’t prepared to put up with the long hours and family sacrifices that go with these top-level jobs, rather than simply systemic geneder-based discrimination?

    Of course the Emily’s listers may argue that it’s still discrimination, and large businesses should make their CEO and Board positions more family friendly, but back to reality….

    My experience in large corporates over several years has been that in the entry to middle management there’s about as many men as women, and that competence depends on the individual, not their gender. But by the time people get into junior-middle management i.e. in their early -mid 30s, many women have kids and take extended maternity leave, and when they come back to a similar role they have less desire to go up the ladder, usually because of insane travel and work hour commitments. They’ve also got less years of experience due to career breaks. So if the Emily’s listers what to even up numbers, rather than crticising the management of big companies, they’ll need to convince their sisters to be more career and less family focussed, and persuade the blokes to be more Mr Dad types.

    I’ve also seen a bit of subtle reverse discrimination. Because there are so few women who are both willing to completely sacrifice family life and highly competent, when you get one or two they tend to get promoted to senior management very quickly. Often they’re more ruthless than the men.

  63. papachango

    it would explain the non-executive director roles too. More family friendly.

  64. MACK1

    “where I’m sure that in a couple of years’ time I won’t still find myself meeting with boards where the only other woman is serving food”.
    Odds on in a couple of years she won’t be in a position to meet anyone of note at all, let alone boards. She’ll be mainly talking to Tim.

  65. Sleetmute

    I’m quite sure that if the shareholders are happy with their returns that they couldn’t care less about the management of the firm, or the gender distribution of the board.

    Tell that to Big Joe.

  66. .

    Just a wild guess, but could this possibly be that the vast majority of competent, professional women aren’t prepared to put up with the long hours and family sacrifices that go with these top-level jobs, rather than simply systemic geneder-based discrimination?

    How many women do you see in economics or engineering lectures?

    How many lawyers (and we know women enrol more in law than they do in the above, and it is a pathway to management) end up practising as public lawyers or as retained legal advisers?

    How many men end up as hairdressers, child carers or florists?

    The world won’t change to the vision the Emily Listers have until people simply act the way they think they should.

    What people choose to make them happy is what is right for them.

    Gillard should learn that some people also like their jobs in hospitality, and it can be a great career towards building levels of wealth she will never control.

  67. Token

    But by the time people get into junior-middle management i.e. in their early -mid 30s, many women have kids and take extended maternity leave, and when they come back to a similar role they have less desire to go up the ladder, usually because of insane travel and work hour commitments. They’ve also got less years of experience due to career breaks.

    A great summary. I asked for stats as it is clear the population of men v women with the necessary experience, time to commit to the work and ability to travel makes it statistically more likely that men make it to an executive position.

    Give it time as the # of talented women with the necessary experience rises and we’ll see 10-40% of boards given to women.

  68. .

    Shut up monty

    http://www.outrightusa.org/joomla25/about-us

    Why is the LP and Outright against government funding of AIDS research and service agencies?

    The answer to this is very closely tied to the fact of government over-taxation and of government bureaucratic waste.
    FACT: Any time middle-men are added into any transaction, prices go up. The more middle-men involved the higher prices go.
    FACT: According to the government’s own GAO reports between 60% and 80% of every dollar given to ANY department or agency of the federal government goes to pay for its overhead, salaries, and all the other expenses of its existence. Only an average of about 30% of each dollar actually gets used for the purpose stated.
    FACT: We are a generous community. It has been proven time and time again that we give to projects and causes we are concerned about.

    Think about this:
    If you want to give one dollar to AIDS research, which way is better? OR, which way benefits the research more?
    1 – through taxation — only 20 or 40 cents goes to fund research after the government takes its cut.
    2 – through United Way — about 60 cents goes to fund research after UW and the middleman charity takes their cuts.
    3 – through a charity funding research — about 80 cents goes to the research.
    4 – directly to the research institution — close to 100 percent goes to fund research.

    No One Wastes More than the federal government!

  69. Dangph

    How many women do you see in economics or engineering lectures?

    It’s like that joke:

    Feminist: There should be more women doing maths and science.
    Interlocutor: Are you doing maths and science?
    Feminist: Shit no. It’s boring and full of nerds.

  70. Oblique

    Why don’t feminists take their victimhood and war on women meme to other parts of the world where there is real discrimination?

    In Saudi Arabia, there are apparently different standards for being a prostitute. For example, if you work at Hardee’s in Jeddah, cover your head to prevent the public from seeing your face, and are female, well, you might qualify as a ‘prostitute’ according to at least one Saudi cleric.

    Via Al Arabiya:

    A Twitter post ignited a battle of arguments over a post tweeted by a Saudi cleric describing the newly-introduced waitress at a fast-food restaurant in Saudi Arabia as “prostitutes”.

    The debated topic sparked when Saudi Sheikh Ali Al Mutairi reacted to a number of Saudi tweets calling for the boycott of popular American fast-food restaurant, Hardee’s.

    The reason?

    The burger chain had recently allowed women – for the first time – to work as waitresses at their branches across the coastal city of Jeddah.

    “At the beginning of her shift she’s a waitress. When her shift ends she becomes a prostitute. The more she’s around men the easier it becomes to get closer to her”, tweeted Al-Mutairi, whose twitter account (@4aalmutairi ) boasts more than 5,000 followers.

  71. Viva

    Years ago it did feel a bit lonely being the only rep of the female tribe at various business gatherings even tho I was never a humourless feminist.

    I thought these days the numbers would have evened up a bit.

  72. Craig Mc

    “where I’m sure that in a couple of years’ time I won’t still find myself meeting with boards where the only other woman is serving food”

    The only boards she’ll be meeting with in a couple of years time will be disciplinary ones.

  73. Judith Sloan

    papachino- your analysis is completely spot on. Children do not bring themselves up and most women I know want to be there for them while still pursuing a career.

  74. BM

    What percentage of sole traders are women? I suspect it’s a pretty low percentage. I would love to see some stats to prove / disprove my theory.

    If I’m right, why is that? Is sexism so rife within our society that women won’t even hire themselves?

    Sole trader stats, I believe, would be a fairly good proxy for how many women would want directorships.

  75. BM

    @ Judith: There are alos some (many?), like my wife, want to be there for the kids whilst not pursuing a career.

    Each one like her reduces the pool of available feminine talent that can rise to the top of the business world.

  76. dianeh

    Very true that women are under represented in the upper echelons of business due to their unwillingness to submit to the demands of that level. I chose a few years ago to move back to a technical role from a lower level management role, and never regretted it. I didnt like the hours, the pressure, etc. I also have very specialist skills that I wanted to keep using, and they were no longer being used. Now as a mother, I am glad I made the choice. I work a standard 40 hour week and have time for my kids. Better that than the 50 plus hours I was working as a manager. I sleep better at night too.

    I do beleive that if the number of women appointees to boards and executive positions is expressed as a percentage of possible candidates rather than the entire workforce, that they probably are fairly well represented.

  77. brc

    Gillard should learn that some people also like their jobs in hospitality, and it can be a great career towards building levels of wealth she will never control.

    …unless they foolishly join a union or choose to use unionised employees. In which case she’ll either set up a fund to shake down the employer, or turn a blind eye when the union management shag their way through the money. Then, sooner or later, someone like Ms Gillard will control their wealth.

  78. James X Leftie

    Money rules all.

    What idiot of a boss would pay more for a man if he could get a woman with the same abilities and pay her less?

    Liberalism is a disease.. it’s shocking how the “women earn less for the same job” theory is accepted as fact the world over.

    Quotas eh? How about we enforce quotas to ensure 99% of workplace deaths are not male? 50-50 sounds fair.

    Or school teachers? Kindy teachers? Nah that wouldn’t work.. as the media tells us, every male is a potential pedo. Can’t let them near the kids, even on planes.

  79. Toiling Mass

    Odds on in a couple of years she won’t be in a position to meet anyone of note at all, let alone boards.

    MACK 1, perhaps she wants quotas for women on Parole Boards.

  80. James X Leftie

    Why were Facebook, Twitter, Ebay, Paypal, Megaupload, and 99% of recent megacorps all started by men?

    I know… SEXISM!!!!

  81. .

    I can’t believe the left carry on with this twaddle AT THE SAME TIME they tell us we should be less focused on money.

    “I’m a CEO because I love my job”

    Bullshit.

  82. jupes
    Julia Gillard, law partner – S&G: sacked.
    Julia Gillard, chairman – Australia: bankrupted.

    You missed one:

    Julia Gillard, President of AUS – collapsed.

    You missed another one:

    Julia Gillard, silent partner AWU WRA – went gangbusters for a while before it was able to cease business with all partners receiving a profit.

  83. jupes

    Nobody discusses the gender anamolies in other industries, it’s always about executive level positions.

    As it is with the armed forces as well. This is what drove the decision to allow women into combat positions.

    Smith and his cronies didn’t give a moment’s thought to combat capability, it was all about getting women into the top positions.

    Smith even backed a recommendation by the Sex Discrimination Commissioner to ‘fast track’ women into command positions in the infantry. Supposedly this will ensure the men respect women more. Yea right.

    Can you imagine if they had let a sex discrimination commissioner like the current idiot loose on the Second AIF in WW2? We’d all be speaking Japanese.

    We are led by numpties.

  84. m0nty

    What percentage of sole traders are women? I suspect it’s a pretty low percentage. I would love to see some stats to prove / disprove my theory.

    Nationally, 31.5% of small business operators are female and 68.5% are male.

    Not equivalent, I know. But…

    if we look at the data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, that illustrates that over the past 10 years the number of women sole traders has gone up 24.6 per cent, while for men it has only gone up by 1 per cent

    I’m trying to find that on the ABS site now.

  85. m0nty

    If I read this spreadsheet right, there were 597,847 + 180,747 male full time sole traders (full time plus part time) and 181,944 + 255,211 females in 2011. This makes for an overall ratio of 64% male, 36% female.

  86. Megan

    over the past 10 years the number of women sole traders has gone up 24.6 per cent, while for men it has only gone up by 1 per cent

    It’s anecdotal observation only, but amongst the younger women of my acquaintance, online businesses which they can run from home have made it easier for them to be there for the fsmily and earn an income free of the hassles of travelling to a workplace and working for someone else. I know I would have done exactly that when my kids were small.

  87. tbh

    Megan, I would have thought the exact same thing. I can only see more of this kind of thing occurring in the future, either in the form of sole trading, telecommuting and/or contracting. I already know several women who do this and many more who want to (Mrs TBH included).

  88. candy

    A lot of sole traders are plumbers, painters and decorators, taxi drivers, physical professions that women don’t generally engage in anyway. I don’t see that changing much.

  89. tbh

    And m0nty, thanks for bringing the data.

  90. Jazza

    As a matter of interest, how many housewives do you think would call up an electrician if it was a woman?
    I live where a few tradies work on their own eschewing the IR laws and all the ATO fuss of employing an offsider or apprentice, fit out their vans ,advertise locally ,and off they go. There is no woman sole trader tradie locally that I’ve ever heard of!

  91. BM

    Thanks Monty. Well, prima facie that suggests that women are half as likely to want to run a business than men. Far from a perfect proxy, but it does show a clear disparity in desire / participation between genders.

  92. Gab

    Close to 60 per cent of federal public servants are female.This gender inequality must be addressed and quota system for hiring males implemented.

  93. .

    Smith even backed a recommendation by the Sex Discrimination Commissioner to ‘fast track’ women into command positions in the infantry. Supposedly this will ensure the men respect women more. Yea right.

    Fuck me. I am all for women serving in combat positions based on merit. That proposal that Smith backed was of course nuts.

  94. Gab

    Sadly, physical fitness requirements for females in the ADF are lower than for males.

  95. .

    Clearly it isn’t about actual equality, is it?

  96. Gab

    nope and neither is it about merit.

  97. Alfonso

    First two USMC female line infantry officer candidates just failed …..one day and two days into the 6 weeker.

    Seems the 100lb loads a bit much for the sisters on rough ground.
    Suck it up.
    Smith will solve that prob by dropping the standards.

  98. brc

    A lot of sole traders are plumbers, painters and decorators, taxi drivers, physical professions that women don’t generally engage in anyway. I don’t see that changing much.

    You left out makeup artists, beauticians, hairdressers, pet groomers, dog walkers, babysitters, bookkeepers, cake decorators and whatever the latest craze in alternative health care is.

    If you think there aren’t many women running sole trader businesses because they aren’t plumbers, well, your just not thinking straight.

  99. Mr T

    Sinclair – I think you are being a bit harsh on m0nty’s gender issue.

    I really think m0nty is female – after reading “his” many posts, I have come to the assumption that m0nty either has one or is one…..

  100. brc

    Why were Facebook, Twitter, Ebay, Paypal, Megaupload, and 99% of recent megacorps all started by men?

    I know… SEXISM!!!!

    Meg Whitman ran eBay for 10 years and grew it from a 30 person company into a 20 billion behemoth with 27,000 staff. She now heads up Hewlett Packard.

  101. jupes

    I am all for women serving in combat positions based on merit.

    This is a commonly held belief however it is wrong, will never work and will destroy the Australian army as an effective combat force.

    To be effective in combat requires male bonding. Putting a female in the mix will destroy that bonding no matter how physically fit she is (the proposed standard is a physical test).

    You can have an equity culture or you can have a combat culture. Not both. No amount of feminist theory will change that.

  102. jupes

    Smith will solve that prob by dropping the standards.

    No doubt. He will use Comcare to back him up.

  103. DrBeauGan

    There are nothing like enough women in the slammer. They are grossly under-represented and equity demands we have more even if we have to modify standards to get them there. I demand a quota!

  104. .

    You can have an equity culture or you can have a combat culture. Not both. No amount of feminist theory will change that.

    You base this on what?

  105. Token

    You can have an equity culture or you can have a combat culture. Not both. No amount of feminist theory will change that.

    Jupes, wipe your mouth out.

    Even now the wymmyns movement is planning to destroy the last of the all men only institutions (done in their Wymmyn’s only gyms and during their Wymmyn’s only swim sessions).

  106. Abu Chowdah

    Why don’t feminists take their victimhood and war on women meme to other parts of the world where there is real discrimination?

    The take home from that story should be the groundbreaking attempt by the government to introduce reform. Instead the focus is on one idiot Tweeter.

  107. jupes

    You base this on what?

    I have experienced both male bonding and equity culture.

    I also spoke to Blind Freddy about it.

  108. Dr Faustus

    Close to 60 per cent of federal public servants are female. This gender inequality must be addressed and quota system for hiring males implemented.

    Just enough time to load the ute with baked beans, bottled water and shotgun shells before the APS press-gang arrives.

  109. Meanwhile, The Slapper (had to borrow it, I love it) has just rewarded the deplorable Anna Bligh for her triumph in running Qld into the ground during a resources boom with a seat on the Board of Medicare. You go girls!

  110. jupes

    The USAF disagrees.

    There is a difference between sitting in a cockpit and assaulting dug in enemy positions.

    Nevertheless, pandering to feminist theory is one of the reasons the US can’t win wars anymore.

  111. Gab

    Tracey it’s not as if there are any successful women or men in the ALP, so the inept get rewarded. It’s the ALP way.

  112. You’re spot on Gab. I lost a bet on this. My money was on her landing some useless high falutin’ job with NBN Co.

  113. Luke

    Gab, in Queensland it’s above 68% of the public servants are female. When I was at the DPC awards a couple of years back (when Anna was Premier) this was met with thunderous applause and cheers from the 90% female audience.

    Apparently this was still a sign women were being oppressed becasue males made up a larger percentage of the top pay bracket. Nothing was said about males making up an even larger percentage of the lowest paid bracket (mostly Qbuild employees).

    I think it’s still the most current ‘state of the service’ for the Queensland public service.

  114. Tintarella di Luna

    I wonder how mOnty as been an owner-operator?

  115. candy

    “If you think there aren’t many women running sole trader businesses because they aren’t plumbers, well, your just not thinking straight.”

    I know that, I’m a sole trader myself, just sayin’ there’s lots of physical jobs that women will never be attracted to and one can’t make them take those sort of jobs up for “equity”.

  116. .

    The USAF is arguably the most successful military force in the world.

    It’s different to being a grunt but having fire and forget missiles launched at you with no armour plating and very large warheads and your fuel plus your own payload is a whole different type of bravery.

  117. jupes

    The USAF is arguably the most successful military force in the world.

    And yet the Taliban remain undefeated after over 10 years of war. Go figure.

  118. .

    Karzai has pleaded that the coalition ground forces should get reduced close air support. They acceded.

    Go figure.

  119. Alfonso

    Women are already in combat in sit down jobs.
    This isn’t about A10 drivers its about infantry in a different universe where you don’t get home nights like the USAF.
    Weak links are going to get good men killed in the cause of feminist ideology. So, sweetie better be able to carry 60lbs on a good day .,..water, kit, ammo, body armour and a SAW ( she won’t be ever carrying a SAW? Ah, I thought not). She also better be able to fireman carry a 180lb wounded Marine on her back for the move to safety ….. bullshit on a stick.

  120. John Mc

    And yet the Taliban remain undefeated after over 10 years of war. Go figure.

    What’s there to figure? Never underestimate the capability of a greasy guerrilla militiaman with a couple of hundred dollars worth of RPG when he’s got conviction, let alone when he’s willing to die for his cause.

  121. let alone when he’s willing to die for his cause.

    And, unlike his Western opponents, doesn’t have to sweat about how many women and children he kills getting there.

    Every one they capture should be executed and his corpse defiled and dumped in a village square somewhere.

  122. Abu Chowdah

    And yet the Taliban remain undefeated after over 10 years of war. Go figure.

    Your terms of reference are bollocks. You’re assessing an air force on its inability to maintain an occupation? That is not the role or forte of the USAF. When it comes to bombing the ever-loving shit out of tribesmen, the USAF is unsurpassed.

    Concede that or be doomed to be classified a clown for ever more.

  123. jupes

    Concede that or be doomed to be classified a clown for ever more.

    I concede nothing and you can classify me however you like.

    My original point was that women in combat positions will destroy the Australian army as an effective fighting force.

    Dot reckoned they should be allowed in based on merit. I disagreed and he brought up the USAF, “arguably the most successful military force in the world”. Well to me, success on the battlefield means victory. I wasn’t saying that the USAF should “maintain an occupation”. I was pointing out that it can’t be too successful if victory can’t be gained against bunch of Afghan tribesmen. On the other hand back in the day, they were very successful against the Japanese. Maybe he should use another adjective to describe the current USAF.

  124. jupes

    Never underestimate the capability of a greasy guerrilla militiaman with a couple of hundred dollars worth of RPG when he’s got conviction, let alone when he’s willing to die for his cause.

    Don’t overestimate them either.

    Man to man they aren’t a match for coalition troops. Hence their main weapons are IEDs and suicide bombers. The reason they are still there is because we don’t have the will to go after them. Too many lawyers involved. Too much international law. Too much political correctness.

    The US has the most powerful military in the world but hasn’t the will to use it effectively. And as far as Australia is concerned, it’s far more important to place women in combat positions than it is to defeat the enemy.

    We have lost the plot.

  125. jupes

    Weak links are going to get good men killed in the cause of feminist ideology.

    No doubt.

    But the problem is much larger than just physical ability. It’s the baggage that comes with it. Consider the extra problems commanders have to deal with e.g. sexual harassment, fraternization, equity complaints, privacy issues, pregnancy, double standards etc. How does any of that increase combat capability FFS?

    This is all about getting women into senior positions. The majority of women who will join the infantry will be officers. They won’t be considered tough enough to play football with the men, but they will be leading them into combat.

    The key to winning in combat is to esprit de corps. The men have to bond as a team with every member pulling their weight. If they don’t, there are methods to pull them into line. They won’t be able to do this with women.

    The ADF used to exist to win wars. Now it exists as the forefront of political correctness.

  126. Alfonso

    “extra problems commanders have to deal with e.g. sexual harassment, fraternization, equity complaints, privacy issues, pregnancy, double standards etc”

    Correct, but unquantifiable except in retrospect, so not an argument that can be easily demonstrated. Once women are in line combat roles it will be near impossible to undo, the Army will pretend /change standards to keep Govt social ideologues happy.

    The deficiencies of women are physical and easily demonstrated during training.
    That’s what anyone opposed to this stupidity needs to hang their hat on. The rest is accurate but speculation.

  127. .

    I was pointing out that it can’t be too successful if victory can’t be gained against bunch of Afghan tribesmen.

    No, karzai ratfucked his own allies with respect to interdiction and close air support. He requested that the level of operations be wound down because it made him look bad.

    Man to man they aren’t a match for coalition troops. Hence their main weapons are IEDs and suicide bombers. The reason they are still there is because we don’t have the will to go after them. Too many lawyers involved. Too much international law. Too much political correctness.

    The US has the most powerful military in the world but hasn’t the will to use it effectively. And as far as Australia is concerned, it’s far more important to place women in combat positions than it is to defeat the enemy.

    We have lost the plot.

    See above.

    Just do it on merit, 1/200 soldiers is perhaps a woman and the number is so low it isn’t a big deal.

    The point the feministas would have to make wouldn’t be based on equality, but on privilege and they’d be ignored.

    Look at perhaps the Caracal regiment of the IDF. Do they make exceptions? I’m thinking they would be less inclined to given the proximity to a real firefight.

    From what I’ve seen they screen the women to see if they’re up to it and take the men on an as is basis.

  128. C.L.

    Stop being a Emily’s Lister, Dot.

    Women don’t belong in combat.

    It isn’t even about physical ability (which they don’t have).

    It’s about decency.

    Plus, there are many ways women can serve militarily – as nurses, for example.

  129. .

    ???

    Do you think women should be cops or firefighters too?

  130. sdog

    Speaking of the US Air Force… “Say It With Teal”

    Distinguishing leadership in the military ought to be about military leadership – inspiration, initiative, mission accomplishment – not prevention. A good leader will do the right thing about all of the stupid human problems that come with a military. Dealing with sexual assault in the ranks isn’t a specialized-training problem, it’s a straight-on leadership problem; it goes to the character of the leaders and the command environment. It’s not a triumph to prevent it, or punish it; it’s a failure if you don’t.

    Unless the Air Force starts putting aiguillettes on students who’ve gotten training in alcohol-abuse counseling or domestic-violence counseling – and I hope it doesn’t – the teal rope doesn’t fit with the other distinguishing aiguillettes as a leadership marker. Those markers should be reserved for leadership in the military mission or morale-enhancement (e.g., the black rope for student activity teams).

    Yes.

  131. Infidel Tiger

    Any man who would let a woman serve on the frontline should be shot.

  132. Infidel Tiger

    ???

    Do you think women should be cops or firefighters too?

    Most certainly not. Except in the clerical pool or domestic violence and rape counselling.

  133. C.L.

    Do you think women should be cops or firefighters too?

    No.

  134. sdog

    I can just see someone like Gillard on the front line. Every time someone’d try and pull her up for something she’d go on a 30-minute screech about MISOGYNEEEE!!

  135. Infidel Tiger

    I’d parachute the Emily’s List Squadron into Afghanistan.

  136. sdog

    I’d parachute the Emily’s List Squadron into Afghanistan.

    Penny Wong. Someone fucking meows at her and it’s a fucking National Emergency. Send her.

  137. .

    My problem is I am an idealist and I will get co-opted and ratfucked by the likes of Gillard.

    That Hot Air article is saddening. The point is made in the comments that any sexual abuse case is used as a mallet to smash the military, from the left wing, feminist point of view.

    Another comment notes that half of the accusations are false.

    Harassment is a dubious ball of uncertainty. Most decent men and women with normal sexual relations or attitudes can arguably be accused of “harassment” of some kind as the definition is so vague.

    The fact you’d want to burden the military with this crap is a sure sign you don’t care about its fortunes.

  138. sdog

    Where’s that excruciating youtube video of the Emily’s Listers rocking out? Oh yeah, they’d be a big hit with the Tally Band.

  139. sdog

    That Hot Air article is saddening.

    Yes.

    The fact you’d want to burden the military with this crap is a sure sign you don’t care about its fortunes.

    Yes.

  140. jupes

    The USAF is NOT successful in Afghanistan because No, karzai ratfucked his own allies with respect to interdiction and close air support. He requested that the level of operations be wound down because it made him look bad.

    So we agree. Most infuriating is that the US agreed to their own neutering.

    Just do it on merit, 1/200 soldiers is perhaps a woman and the number is so low it isn’t a big deal.

    Oh but it is. Especially for the men serving with, or more likely, under the command of that woman.

    The fact you’d want to burden the military with this crap is a sure sign you don’t care about its fortunes.

    We agree again. However this statement contradicts the one above it.

  141. .

    We agree again. However this statement contradicts the one above it.

    No it doesn’t. You are presuming, perhaps correctly, that merit will be abandoned.

  142. jupes

    The deficiencies of women are physical and easily demonstrated during training.

    Not always so, there will always be a woman who is physically fit enough to pass the training. And that is precisely the problem. The army has set a physical standard to join the infantry. Women will pass. It will start next year.

    Once women are in line combat roles it will be near impossible to undo, the Army will pretend /change standards to keep Govt social ideologues happy.

    Correct on both counts. Which is why the army required a leader with balls to stop this crap when they had the chance. The ADF hierarchy failed them miserably. They didn’t even try.

  143. C.L.

    Dot, your house is burning down and your three year old daughter needs a firefighter to lift a heavy beam to save her life.

    Wanna man or a woman on scene?

  144. jupes

    No it doesn’t. You are presuming, perhaps correctly, that merit will be abandoned.

    One of us has a comprehension problem.

    My point is that regardless of merit, women should not be allowed to serve in combat positions.

    Your point below supports my point:

    The fact you’d want to burden the military with this crap is a sure sign you don’t care about its fortunes.

    And I agree that merit will be abandoned. If it hasn’t been already that is. The Sex Discrimination Commissioner recommended that women should be fast tracked into leadership positions in combat roles i.e. get promoted faster than their male colleagues. Not surprisingly Smith agreed.

    Apparently having women in leadership roles in combat units will guarantee respect from the troops and lead to less sexual harassment. Genius. Idiots like me always thought that the more women in units the greater the chance of sexual harassment.

  145. .

    See jupes you actually back up my point at 1.02 in your first para.

    Dot, your house is burning down and your three year old daughter needs a firefighter to lift a heavy beam to save her life.

    Wanna man or a woman on scene?

    My family will probably die regardless as it is my preference to live away from civilisation.

    I’d like it if they can bench, squat and deadlift [health lift] four plates a side at a minimum with a thick grip (two plates a side min for shoulder press [press]) and be able to do bodyweight exercises like wide grip pull ups, muscle outs and rope climbing.

    Very few women could do this. It becomes irrelevant if objectivity is maintained.

  146. jupes

    See jupes you actually back up my point at 1.02 in your first para.

    Seriously, what part of regardless of merit do you not understand?

  147. Alfonso

    Well….I’m not sure what sort of halfarsed fitness is required for line infantry officer candidates in Australia but no woman in the US has been able to come near the USMC line combat officer physical standards.
    The left will get the military it wants…all just part of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire…don’t take it personally, there is no way back.

  148. .

    That’s my point, just don’t drop the standards. Ignore the feminists.

  149. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    The USAF is arguably the most successful military force in the world.

    It’s different to being a grunt but having fire and forget missiles launched at you with no armour plating and very large warheads and your fuel plus your own payload is a whole different type of bravery.

    Women can be very brave and very good soldiers, police or firies, or other ‘masculine’ things, as long as we have roles that recognise we are women, not men.

    I’m with jupes and CL and IT and some others on this.

    The crux is that we are women, have women’s internal body organs (strain more easily, different musculature etc.), and most importantly, we have female hormones softening and motivating us in ways that aren’t always obvious, nor always useful in a male context, nor always pleasant and tradtionally ‘feminine’ (they can make us very nasty, that is contextual; men get nasty in different ways). Our brains are female, they think female. There IS a difference and in hand-to-hand combat this difference matters (in the Boardroom it may well be useful, constructive, destructive, or not important – again it’s contextual, and comes down to the general idea of character, regardless of gender).

    On a bit of a sliding scale, all men are hairy apes. My own Hairy Ape is Irish in nature as well as birth, and he does male things sometimes to the point of stupidity. The male bonding thing too is so real, as jupes recognises.

    We were walking up to Wineglass Beach lookout on the Freycinet Peninsula in Tassie recently, and I stopped in a quiet spot to remove my bra which was digging in. At the same time a posse of older guys came around the rock below. Lizzie, says Da Hairy Ape, first you lose the map, then you spill your water bottle, and now you give dese poor old guys a quick heart attack ‘cos dey are already puffin’ …

    They didn’t see nuffink, says Eliza to Prof Higgins.

    Dey didn’t need to see, Lizzie, says da Ape sagely.

    I am a man, he says, I know what dey’re t’inkin. Dese old guys were doing good till they saw you.

    Interferes with male group bonding or something like that, is what he meant.

  150. blogstrop

    Any man who would let a woman serve on the frontline should be shot.

    The prevailing leftist meme these days is that anyone should be able to do any role, but since they have a view that our “forces” should be more peacekeepers, social workers and builders than actual soldiers, they will complain every time things get untidy.
    So we get women on ships where they shouldn’t be, women in harm’s way where in time they’ll be shot or used as hostages to good propaganda effect by those whose Rules Of Engagment (ROE) owe nothing to the UN’s fantasies.
    First they want the women in there, then they want the men to behave like women. And nobody anywhere must get hurt, particularly so-called “civilians”.
    Give me a break!

  151. C.L.

    Women can be very brave…

    Lizzie, aye. The women who served in uniform in World War II were braver than any USAF pilot dropping things on people from the stratosphere. They were braver than me. One of the things that irks and disgusts me is the notion that women serving in the military are just now being given an opportunity to shine as exemplars of courage.

  152. .

    The women who served in uniform in World War II were braver than any USAF pilot dropping things on people from the stratosphere. They were braver than me.

    There were indeed female nurses and spies that put up with brutal oppression or straight up terror and stared it down.

    I think we’re better off not comparing braveries.

    “Are cops braver than firefighters?” I wouldn’t even answer.

    Every time you turn on a warplane the bloody thing can blow up.

    When you are being chased by a big missile locked onto you doing Mach 4 with a 200 kg warhead and you have no armour plating with low outside air pressure, carrying thousands of pounds of fuel and munitions, you don’t have many friends.

  153. C.L.

    Every time you turn on a warplane the bloody thing can blow up.

    Tally-oh, old boy. How often does that happen in the 21st century?

    When you are being chased by a big missile locked onto you doing Mach 4 with a 200 kg warhead and you have no armour plating with low outside air pressure, carrying thousands of pounds of fuel and munitions, you don’t have many friends.

    You have an ejector suit.

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