Jerusalem is the capital of Israel at Catallaxy Files

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel

I’ve noticed something interesting in the AFR over the past few days (emphasis added):

Today: “Foreign Minister Bob Carr has had Israel’s ambassador to Australia Yuval Rotem called in to protest against Tel Aviv’s decision to expand housing settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.”

On November 27: “In a move likely to anger Israel, Australia will split with Tel Aviv and the US by not opposing the resolution, to be presented as early as Thursday in New York, which seeks to upgrade Palestine’s status in the General Assembly to a non-member observer state like the Vatican.”

Referring to a capital city when talking about the government of a country seems to have gone out of fashion – why not refer to the Netanyahu government? But there it is. Twice in just over a week by the same journalist. So is this a personal choice by the journalist or has the AFR chosen sides?

Written by Sinclair Davidson

December 5th, 2012 at 7:38 pm

Posted in Uncategorized

140 Responses to 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel'

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How would the AFR react if the Jerusalum Post reported;

Foreign Minister Avigdon Leiberman has had Australia’s ambassador to Israel Ms Andrea Faulkner called in to protest against Melbourne’s decision to expand housing settlements in Tecoma/Upwey and the Dandenong Ranges.

They would probably piss their pants and run off screaming something incoherent.

Carpe Jugulum

5 Dec 12 at 8:14 pm
An informative exercise: see how many times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Koran and the Old Testament.

I guess the truth is at odds with the notion of “Abrahamic religions” and the attendant factually ignorant equivalence it induces.

e-girl

5 Dec 12 at 8:15 pm
To be fair, though, most of the world’s governments, including that of the United States, recognise Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel. The US Embassy (and Australia’s Embassy) are all in Tel Aviv. The formal UN position is that Tel Aviv is the capital. True, the Knesset is in Jerusalem. But I think the reports ‘Tel Aviv decided’ said are quite common and I’ve read similar references in the New York Times. Anyhow, as Tel Aviv is only 68 km from Jerusleum one could argue they are one larger city.

Samuel J

5 Dec 12 at 8:20 pm
The formal UN position is that Tel Aviv is the capital.

Who?

You becoming a communist?

Sinclair Davidson

5 Dec 12 at 8:22 pm
The formal UN position is that Tel Aviv is the capital.

Good Lord, Samuel. You’re citing the Turtle Bay toilet?

C.L.

5 Dec 12 at 8:26 pm
Agreed. The formal UN position on anything is to be avoided, or at least regarded with extreme suspicion.

blogstrop

5 Dec 12 at 8:26 pm
The US Embassy (and Australia’s Embassy) are all in Tel Aviv

Only because they are scared of having their backsides blown off…

Jerusalem is the political (Knesset’s there) and spiritual (“Next year in Jerusalem”) capital of Israel!

Arnost

5 Dec 12 at 8:27 pm
Samuel

Have you been brainwashed there in frogland? Do we need to send in the crack Cat SAS team to get you outta there?

Anyhow, as Tel Aviv is only 68 km from Jerusleum one could argue they are one larger city.

Dude, you realize that’s a good part of the country? You don’t preface 68 Ks with “only” when talking about Israel.

Fuck it, I’m sending in the team to get him outta there.

JC

5 Dec 12 at 8:32 pm
I’m hope Samuel isn’t doing a Wodger. It’s the same crazy time of year when that idiot went haywire.

JC

5 Dec 12 at 8:33 pm
You becoming a communist?

Yep, I’m a communist. I’ve just applied to have the word redifined in the Macquarie dictionary. It will now read:

Communist (noun):
a person who advocates liberty, especially with regard to thought or conduct.
2.a person who maintains the doctrine of free will.
3. a person who considers that the individual is more important than the collective
4. a person who advocates unfettered free speech
5. a person who believes that small government leads to better economic outcomes

We’re all communists now.

Samuel J

5 Dec 12 at 8:34 pm
Alright everyone, the UN reference was out of line. I withdraw – after all I have advocated the abolition of the UN.

Samuel J

5 Dec 12 at 8:38 pm
The question is – where does Israel state its capital is? No one else really gets a say in these things.

Driftforge

5 Dec 12 at 8:38 pm
So is this a personal choice by the journalist or has the AFR chosen sides?

It’s just bog standard insulting lefty bullshit.

Sinc, is this even remarkable? It’s certainly not remarkable that it’s parroted in the AFR, if that’s your point.

Rabz

5 Dec 12 at 8:40 pm
Wellington once said, “We are, we have always been, and I pray always shall be detested in France.”

If I had never even heard of the state of Israel previously, I would nevertheless instinctively know that they are worthy of my admiration and support – because the UN, the modern Left, and the ABC and Fairfax despise them.

They must be doing things right.

alexnoaholdmate

5 Dec 12 at 8:40 pm
Abolition is too soft. The buildings should be imploded, the earth salted, and the UNites sent off to re-education camps – at their own expense, of course.

Sinclair Davidson

5 Dec 12 at 8:40 pm
Samuel needs to be renditioned by CAT Team VI.

C.L.

5 Dec 12 at 8:40 pm
Sinc now channeling Cato the Elder. Can I spread the salt?

Samuel J

5 Dec 12 at 8:43 pm
If Samuel is in France then send me! send me! to rescue him. I’ll bring back some cheeses too.

Gab

5 Dec 12 at 8:45 pm
CL: I’ve returned from my rendition. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Always was, always will be.

Samuel J

5 Dec 12 at 8:45 pm
Abolition is too soft. The buildings should be imploded, the earth salted, and the UNites sent off to re-education camps – at their own expense, of course.

Sinc..it actually would be a bad place for an apartment complex as it over looks the East River jutting out a little so you would get a really good angle of Manhattan and it’s close to Sutton Place. There’s a lot of stuff you could do with that real estate.

JC

5 Dec 12 at 8:46 pm
oops.. wouldn’t

JC

5 Dec 12 at 8:47 pm
I’m afraid Gab you’d be going to the wrong place. Samuel is happily living on a farm in NSW.

Samuel J

5 Dec 12 at 8:48 pm
AFAIK there are no foreign embassies in Jerusalem – east or west. And East Jerusalem is disputed land and wasn’t part of the original state of Israel.

But back to the original point I think its still quite common to refer to decisions coming out of Canberra or Washington so I don’t think its that unusual.

Foreign Minister Avigdon Leiberman has had Australia’s ambassador to Israel Ms Andrea Faulkner called in to protest against Melbourne’s decision to expand housing settlements in Tecoma/Upwey and the Dandenong Ranges.

They only control East Jerusalem through fairly recent conquest though.

Chris

5 Dec 12 at 8:48 pm
Oh. Then someone else can save him.

Gab

5 Dec 12 at 8:49 pm
We’re only joshin, Samuel.

C.L.

5 Dec 12 at 8:55 pm
They only control East Jerusalem through fairly recent conquest though.

Yea, you could say that about

Australia
New Zealand
US
Canada
Mexico

Rest of South AM

You could say that about various parts of Germany, Italy, France, Spain.

Why the focus on the Jews, Chris? Something you just like about those pesky Jews?

Fuck knuckle, when you’ve finally moved back the land of your ancestors then you can say something. Until then, shut your hypocritical gob about Israel.

JC

5 Dec 12 at 8:57 pm
Can I spread the salt?

There is a waiting list, but i’m sure we can squeeze you in.

Carpe Jugulum

5 Dec 12 at 8:58 pm
They only control East Jerusalem through fairly recent conquest though.

The six-day war was (just) before I was born – so yes, very very recent.

Sinclair Davidson

5 Dec 12 at 9:05 pm
Not all the embassies are in Tel Aviv, some of these are in places that i have no idea where they are.

http://www.science.co.il/Embassies.asp

Carpe Jugulum

5 Dec 12 at 9:10 pm
AFAIK there are no foreign embassies in Jerusalem – east or west

Sure, so you believe we should let the foreigners decide what a countries capital is.

I’m happy with that, I’ll get a bunch of foreigners to vote in the UN to make a section of the Aus Antartic Territory or even better Heard Island the new capital so we can force the useless departments like Sustainability & the CSIRO to be based there.

Token

5 Dec 12 at 9:13 pm
The six-day war was (just) before I was born – so yes, very very recent.

That’s pretty recent in the whole history of the middle east

Just as a comparison how many countries have gained land through conquest since WWII? A few perhaps in Africa? There’s been a few civil wars which aren’t quite the same thing. Tibet is one example and there’s a fair amount of international opposition to that and ongoing oppression of the population by China.

As I mentioned in the other thread I have a lot of sympathy for the Israelis around the right to self-defence. But creating settlements on occupied territory just makes a long term solution much harder/more expensive. Admittedly though nothing much is going to happen until the Palestinians elect a much more reasonable party to government – but at the same time I think that’s less likely to happen while Israeli settlements on occupied land is growing.

Chris

5 Dec 12 at 9:15 pm
They only control ~~East~~ Jerusalem through fairly recent conquest though.

FTFY

jupes

5 Dec 12 at 9:16 pm
As I mentioned in the other thread I have a lot of sympathy for the Israelis around the right to self-defence.

…but they have no right to choose where the capital of their own state is.

Token

5 Dec 12 at 9:17 pm
Every nation state exists due to conflict, conquest, and violence. I see no reason why the Israelis should be treated differently or why since WWII is a benchmark.

I’m also not sure why everyone carries on about the two-state solution. It was implemented.

Sinclair Davidson

5 Dec 12 at 9:23 pm
…but they have no right to choose where the capital of their own state is.

I’ve no problem with them selecting West Jerusalem as their capital. A tad unusual to place your capital city on a border, but it’s up to them. East Jerusalem is a different matter. Australia could select Wellington as our capital city, but there’d probably be a few international objections about that decision.

Chris

5 Dec 12 at 9:24 pm
To be fair, though, most of the world’s governments, including that of the United States, recognise Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel. The US Embassy (and Australia’s Embassy) are all in Tel Aviv. The formal UN position is that Tel Aviv is the capital. True, the Knesset is in Jerusalem. But I think the reports ‘Tel Aviv decided’ said are quite common and I’ve read similar references in the New York Times. Anyhow, as Tel Aviv is only 68 km from Jerusleum one could argue they are one larger city.

I do find it extraordinary that other governments let alone newspapers would choose to determine for themselves where another country has its capital. I can’t imagine other countries deciding that Myanmar needed to move its capital back to Yangon/Rangoon because of the sensibilities of the locals.

Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are about as “not one larger city” as two cities could be, they are entirely different culturally, ethnically, and geographically. Anyway they aren’t all 68km away just because of the local climate, they are there to make a political point so the distance is symbolic if not physically great.

Whatever the status of East Jerusalem, given that Israel has held West Jerusalem from the beginning I don’t really get how they can’t have a capital city there. East Berlin was the capital of East Germany, right? Even when it was divided? Nicosia has been a capital while divided – and still is.

Not all the embassies are in Tel Aviv, some of these are in places that i have no idea where they are.

Ramat Gan and Herzliyah, particularly Herzliyah Pituah (“open”) are fancy suburbs of Tel Aviv. Several embassies are in Jerusalem, although they are technically called consulates in these cases.

rob

5 Dec 12 at 9:24 pm
Just as a comparison how many countries have gained land through conquest since WWII?

Off the top of my head:

Egypt – Occupied Gaza from 1948 – 1967.
Jordan – Occupied the West Bank from 1948 – 1967.
North Korea.
North Vietnam.
Indonesia.
Argentina (Very temporarily).
Iraq.

But all the above are different to Israel. Israel is entitled to that land. They were attacked from that territory so it is legitimate for them to occupy it. Just because the UN disagrees doesn’t change that fact.

jupes

5 Dec 12 at 9:32 pm
A tad unusual to place your capital city on a border, but it’s up to them

Unusual but hardly unknown, I have Nicosia, the other side of Nicosia (is that a capital? let’s not go there), Kinshasa, Brazzaville, Vatican City(!), Copenhagen, Vientiane, Lome…

rob

5 Dec 12 at 9:33 pm
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel

Well, obviously!

And the UN can get secured to teh bulkhead by red hot rivets, with a white hot one in it’s scrote.

Sinc noted that: I’m also not sure why everyone carries on about the two-state solution. It was implemented.

He’s dead right. There is a ‘Palestinian state’ and it is called Jordan.

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Dec 12 at 9:43 pm
Just as a comparison how many countries have gained land through conquest since WWII?

Off the top of my head:

Egypt – Occupied Gaza from 1948 – 1967.

Hey I will give you another one- Palestine.
After decades of warfare, the Palestinian authority took over in 1993 various territories albeit scattered ones that had previously been administered by Jordan, Egypt and then Israel.

rob

5 Dec 12 at 9:43 pm
A tad unusual to place your capital city on a border, but it’s up to them

How about Canberra & Queanbeyan?

Splatacrobat

5 Dec 12 at 9:46 pm
There is a ‘Palestinian state’ and it is called Jordan.

Well there’s definitely a Palestinian enclave called Gaza, bordering Egypt run by their ideological and ethnic cousins, said border presumably able to be opened for all legitimate purposes, but the political climate in Gaza doesn’t seem conducive to it flourishing as a beacon of free markets and free minds.

rob

5 Dec 12 at 9:48 pm
But all the above are different to Israel. Israel is entitled to that land. They were attacked from that territory so it is legitimate for them to occupy it. Just because the UN disagrees doesn’t change that fact.

That is a fair argument but when you conquer and occupy another land it follows that the people living there eventually become citizens or you give it back maybe taking a small piece for punishment.

kelly liddle

5 Dec 12 at 9:48 pm
Abolition is too soft. The buildings should be imploded, the earth salted, and the UNites sent off to re-education camps – at their own expense, of course.

Stop being a wimp, Sinc.

1. invite all UN staff to an all-nigh kiddiefiddling, Moet and caviar night to make sure all of them pack in to the building.

2. Lock the doors after filling the ground floors with anti-personnel mines with trembler switches

3. Blow the structural supports on the river side of the building and topple it into the river.

4. napalm the site and impact area in the river for 20 minutes to make sure there are no survivors.

The UN is now useful for the first time in half a century. Landfill is, after all, the very definition of useful

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Dec 12 at 9:50 pm
That is a fair argument but when you conquer and occupy another land it follows that the people living there eventually become citizens or you give it back maybe taking a small piece for punishment.

So you agree with Israel expanding their settlements.

Good.

jupes

5 Dec 12 at 9:52 pm
Yes, Rob, there is. That piece of Israeli generosity has not, however, been at all rewarded.

it should be rescinded.

And the left were SO strident in their belief that it would lead to peace and unicorns gambolling in teh fairy-floss fields.

Funny how they lied….

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Dec 12 at 9:52 pm
the Palestinian authority took over in 1993 various territories albeit scattered ones that had previously been administered by Jordan, Egypt and then Israel.

That’s different! Because stuff, and that!

wreckage

5 Dec 12 at 9:53 pm
How about Canberra & Queanbeyan?

see also Washington DC, Mexico City, Sao Paolo, Berlin (I think still bordering Brandenburg), and in Venezuela, and the Dominican Republic…actually take a look at where Damascus is, you can see why they want the Golan Heights back!

Vienna and Bratislava are almost on their respective borders, only 60-70km apart

rob

5 Dec 12 at 9:55 pm
That piece of Israeli generosity has not, however, been at all rewarded.

it should be rescinded.

Generosity??

I assume you never visited Gaza?

rob

5 Dec 12 at 9:56 pm
Nope. Never been to Gaza. I DO note that the first bombardment rocket (an indiscriminate weapon, fired at a civilian town – Sderot – and by UN definition a war crime) was fired less than an hour after the last Israeli left gaza.

They have not stopped this habit since. perhaps they should.

if not, permanent walls, genuine blockade, minefields and return 155mm fire for each rocket might set the lesson. Seven years of getting shot at from Gaza seems like just about enough.

Gaza is far from the hellhole it is commonly thought to be, as a bit of research into UN reports indicates.

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Dec 12 at 10:03 pm
I assume you never visited Gaza?

It’s a holiday resort.

http://conservativepapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/gaza2.jpg

C.L.

5 Dec 12 at 10:05 pm
So you agree with Israel expanding their settlements.

Good.

If they draw a specific line that is reasonable maybe 5% or 10% of what was previously the West Bank for example and say this is ours and that is that and never overstep than line and make plans for diplomatic normalisation with West Bank and Gaza then yes but that is not what is happening.

kelly liddle

5 Dec 12 at 10:07 pm
4. napalm the site and impact area in the river for 20 minutes to make sure there are no survivors.

Won’t the napalm get in the way of the sharks with fricken laser beams on their foreheads?

boy on a bike

5 Dec 12 at 10:07 pm
No, Boab. They are under the water searching for live ones in air pockets.

Can’t be too careful, donchaknow.

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Dec 12 at 10:11 pm
Kelly, I think leaving the east Jordanians 5-10% of Israel’s west bank is a bit too generous, but I suppose there must be some pallies there who are not enthusiastic splodeydopes or depressing death-cultists.

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Dec 12 at 10:15 pm
I think leaving the east Jordanians 5-10% of Israel’s west bank is a bit too generous,

Yes you will get the bite. Of course leave them 90 to 95%.

kelly liddle

5 Dec 12 at 10:18 pm
There has never been a state called Palestine.

Lazlo

5 Dec 12 at 10:21 pm
Why do most nations and particularly the arab world think that apartheid is OK? How many jews are part of arab governments, whereas the Knesset has Arab and palestinian ethnic members. Having a bunch of rational democratic Jews in the Middle east is a real pain in butt for all their resentful neighbours. Resentment rules just about everywhere these days.

face ache

5 Dec 12 at 10:24 pm
There has never been a state called Palestine.

Yet the Palestinians are practically members of the UN, somehow. Even though to recognise them is to reward years of terrorism.

Because shut up, that’s why.

alexnoaholdmate

5 Dec 12 at 10:31 pm
Abolition is too soft. The buildings should be imploded, the earth salted, and the UNites sent off to re-education camps – at their own expense, of course.

Well then, there goes Sinc’s chance of getting a visa to visit the US ever again.

m0nty

5 Dec 12 at 10:35 pm
why not refer to the Netanyahu government

not every one knows who are the PMs of every major country.

Jim Rose

5 Dec 12 at 10:41 pm
not every one knows who are the PMs of every major country.

That’s why we have Google.

Gab

5 Dec 12 at 10:47 pm
Resentment rules just about everywhere these days.

Ever thus, as noted by Nietzsche

Lazlo

5 Dec 12 at 10:49 pm
Because shut up, that’s why

Indeed. As you are meant to shut up about a ‘climate crisis’, and simply hand over billions of dollars to the corrupt bureaucracy, as the UK has done.

And also shut up about the attempt by the UN, via the ITU, to take over the internet.

If that happens then it’s all over rover – O’Brien will have won.

Lazlo

5 Dec 12 at 10:54 pm
How many jews are part of arab governments

Only one as an act of positive discrimination in Iran.

kelly liddle

5 Dec 12 at 11:07 pm
Kelly:

Yes you will get the bite. Of course leave them 90 to 95%.

Except I was being quite serious. ‘palestine’ is Jordan. Giving the so-called pallies self-rule in Gaza has proven beyond the slightest shadow of doubt that the pallies are utterly unfit for self-government and need to be ruled by someone capable of keeping them to at least a low level of violence, brutality and mayhem. Self-government for those idiots has been an unmitigated disaster: judging by their behaviour the pallies are such barbarians they make the Visigoths look like paragons of civilised conduct.

The Hashemites are pretty good at ruling Arabs. The Turks are better. So give them the boot to Jordan, let Israel have its proper borders and at elast protect the one genuinely civilised liberal western democracy in the entire middle east. perhaps the barbarians can learn to emulate civlised behaviour. More likely is that they will continue to wallow in barbarism, but one can hope.

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Dec 12 at 11:18 pm
Sure thing Mk50. This ‘submission’ religion needs to get beyond resentment and suicide attacks. But the Socialist Forum will surely disagree.

Lazlo

5 Dec 12 at 11:28 pm
as Tel Aviv is only 68 km from Jerusleum one could argue they are one larger city.

Que??

Viva

5 Dec 12 at 11:53 pm
chosen sides?

everyone does it these days Sinc, even Bruce Wilson’s ex’s current…chew the lumps…

‘Albert Dadon…controversially, employed her partner, Tim Mathieson, as a consultant before she became Prime Minister’

http://antonyloewenstein.com/2012/12/02/baby-steps-towards-neutering-the-fundamentalist-zionist-lobby-in-australia/

codger

6 Dec 12 at 12:18 am
ban codger immediately. linking to lowenstein has to be the lowest act someone can perform at the cat!

Harrys on the Boat

6 Dec 12 at 12:47 am
Jerusalem is also the Palestinian capital.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 3:51 am
There has never been a state called Palestine.
Yet the Palestinians are practically members of the UN, somehow. Even though to recognise them is to reward years of terrorism.

It worked for the founders of Israel.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 3:55 am
It is simply because Bob Carr will do anything for support and comes from a party that is used to paying people off for their support. Now as it happens I know that Bob Carr and his party are mates with some of the people who attended the horrific riots outside the Lakemba Mosque after the Cronulla incident. I know that Bob Carr pushes some of these people for political positions within the ALP and I know that he promotes some of these people to turn up to Rudd’s 20-20 conference and other such Lefty talkfests.

John Comnenus

6 Dec 12 at 7:56 am
Israel should halt the construction of Arab homes on the East Bank. Quid pro quo.

John Comnenus

6 Dec 12 at 7:59 am
The Palestinians are people, too. Most on this blog don’t know any Palestinians or Israelis. It’s all an intellectual conceit, sadly.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 8:19 am
Most on this blog don’t know any Palestinians or Israelis.

I even know people who live in Israel.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Dec 12 at 9:33 am
The Palestinians are people, too.

Yes they are. But they are not nice people. They are barbarians. They elected Hamas, a terrorist organisation.

There may even be a few decent Palestinians, but in times of war, you treat the enemy as the enemy. The terrorists couldn’t exist without the support of the people.

They deserve a lot more than what Israel has hit them with so far.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 9:34 am
But they are not nice people. They are barbarians.

Not fair – I’m sure most Palestinians, like everyone else, want to live in peace and prosperity. But there is a lot of institutional failure that prevents that. The largest contributors to their problems are the UN and European anti-semites.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Dec 12 at 9:43 am
Not fair – I’m sure most Palestinians, like everyone else, want to live in peace and prosperity.

Crap. Where is the evidence for that?

This is a common fallacy held by people living in the west. Peace means something completely different to most Muslims. They want to live in peace and prosperity as long as there are no Jews living in Israel.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 9:54 am
Give em a chance jupes.

If you took out a fair whack of Hamas and Hezbollah they might actually vote normally.

.

6 Dec 12 at 9:56 am
jupes – I don’t believe human natures changes that much across individuals. At some point everybody realises that the gains from cooperation outweigh the gains from violence. So I’m working on a ‘Make profit, not war’ ethic prevailing in the end.

Yes, I know – too idealistic, etc. etc.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Dec 12 at 10:03 am
Give em a chance jupes.

They have had many chances. Israel has been attacked by five Arab states and many terrorist organisations since 1948. Their aim is to exterminate Israel. It’s a religious thing.

But hey, don’t take my word for it. Speak to any Muslim. Even if they are a so called moderate ask them about their view of Israel. I have never met a Muslim yet with anything positive to say about the Jewish state. It’s all about Jew hate.

Read the Koran. It’s part of their religion. They will never accept Israel.

If you took out a fair whack of Hamas and Hezbollah they might actually vote normally.

You mean like in Egypt? Look at the so called Arab spring. How’s Libya working out? Is anyone confident Syria will end up well? There is no way any Arab country will be moderate in the foreseeable future unless they get smashed in a war.

Sad but true.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 10:13 am
So I’m working on a ‘Make profit, not war’ ethic prevailing in the end.

Religion trumps economics in this case Sinc.

At some point everybody realises that the gains from cooperation outweigh the gains from violence.

Probably. But the threshold is very high in a lot of cultures. With Islam it will probably take the kind of destruction wreaked on Japan in WW2.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 10:17 am
Religion trumps economics in this case Sinc.

I live in hope. It took Christianity 1500 years to get over religion.

With Islam it will probably take the kind of destruction wreaked on Japan in WW2.

Quite possibly.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Dec 12 at 10:34 am
You mean like in Egypt? Look at the so called Arab spring. How’s Libya working out? Is anyone confident Syria will end up well? There is no way any Arab country will be moderate in the foreseeable future unless they get smashed in a war.

Which is what I basically said needs to be done.

Israel should just target top down of Hamas, Hezbollah and the MB until they say uncle.

.

6 Dec 12 at 10:39 am
They have had many chances. Israel has been attacked by five Arab states and many terrorist organisations since 1948. Their aim is to exterminate Israel. It’s a religious thing.

A clear and concise explanation for the conflict in the Middle East. Worth the few minutes it will take to watch.

The Middle East Problem

Dancing Around Genocide

For decades Human Rights Watch has done brave reporting behind the Iron Curtain, in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, communist China and other dark corners. Yet its silence on Iran’s genocidal rhetoric fits a pattern toward Israel.

Human Rights Watch is a George Soros funded organisation.

Netanyahu

“What was the war about? The war was about our very existence. We left areas that we captured in the Six Day War, like the Gaza Strip, and they fire missiles at us.

Rudiau

6 Dec 12 at 10:46 am
Look, a good argument to use on Mohammedans is to ask them if they believe that God (a.k.a. Allah) can or does intervene in battles to help the side He favours. An early incident in Mohammed’s life (The battle of Badr, Surah 3, verse 13 of the Koran) is taken as proof that He does.
Then ask them if Israel, which has won ALL it’s battles, must therefore be Allah’s favourite nation? And since He allowed them to get ALL of Jerusalem, don’t they have the right to keep it as their Capital? And people who don’t accept Allah’s will can be automatically regarded as followers of Satan?
Since most Palestinians claim to be muslims, they would not have a theological leg to stand on!!!

Nuke Gray

6 Dec 12 at 11:43 am
For all you guys too bog lazy to check, the UN lists Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and there’s a map and all to help.

http://data.un.org/CountryProfile.aspx?crName=ISRAEL

Tel

6 Dec 12 at 3:15 pm
Then ask them if Israel, which has won ALL it’s battles…

Hezbollah’s anti-tank missiles stung them a bit harder than expected in their recent attempted invasion of Lebanon. They couldn’t get out of there quick enough.

Tel

6 Dec 12 at 3:18 pm
What? You mean Israel has been destroyed, and no-one noticed? Quick, call the media!!!

Nuke Gray

6 Dec 12 at 4:11 pm
Abolition is too soft. The buildings should be imploded, the earth salted, and the UNites sent off to re-education camps – at their own expense, of course.

All the reason I need to keep visiting the Cat.

Ellen of Tasmania

6 Dec 12 at 4:17 pm
Yes they are. But they are not nice people. They are barbarians. They elected Hamas, a terrorist organisation.

Idiot. Gaza is not the West Bank.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 4:33 pm
I live in hope. It took Christianity 1500 years to get over religion.

Me too.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 4:33 pm
This is a common fallacy held by people living in the west. Peace means something completely different to most Muslims. They want to live in peace and prosperity as long as there are no Jews living in Israel.

You know nothing about what people here think and say. Hamas does not equal every Muslim.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 4:36 pm
Abu, the PA’s position is nearly identical to Hamas in that respect. No Jews in a future Palestinian state, and “Right of Return” used to destroy Israel. The only difference is that the PA do not openly celebrate the murder of Jews anymore.

Fisky

6 Dec 12 at 4:42 pm
And yet Abbas said that people needed to accept that they will never return so some of their villages even if there is a two state solution. He was criticized for it by the rabid types (the ones who get all the media oxygen) but it shows the sort of pragmatism that Sinc suggested ultimately gets people past enmities and focused on living.

Of course, just as in Australia, not every one agrees on everything here. Surprise.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 4:47 pm
But hey, don’t take my word for it. Speak to any Muslim. Even if they are a so called moderate ask them about their view of Israel. I have never met a Muslim yet with anything positive to say about the Jewish state. It’s all about Jew hate.

I have never met or heard of a single Muslim who unequivocally supports Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state with no “right of return”. The best you will ever get is the dishonest “two state solution on pre-67 borders with right of return for all ‘refugees’”, which in practical terms means two Arab states living side by side with a minority of Jews in one of them.

The overwhelming majority advocate up front the destruction of Israel, and a smart media-savvy minority call for a phoney “two state” solution with a majority of Arabs in both.

Fisky

6 Dec 12 at 4:48 pm
Complete bollocks.

But pervasive bollocks.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 4:50 pm
Abu, the problem is that the Palestinians will never be prepared emotionally and psychologically to accept anything less than the destruction of Israel either in one step or two. They are not teaching their children about the need for two states, including a Jewish state, living side by side in peace. They are instructing them about the inevitable victory of Muslims over Jews.

Any leader who in substance rejects the position of 99% of their constituents will be on the last helicopter flight out of Ramallah.

Fisky

6 Dec 12 at 4:51 pm
Complete bollocks.

But pervasive bollocks.

I know of one mainstream Arab commentator who unequivocally supports a two-state solution with no Final Refugee Solution. That’s Hussein Ibish. But I’m not even sure that he’s a Muslim.

The rest all do the same dishonest shuffle about “pre-1967 borders plus right of return”, when they are not openly calling for elimination. All of them (ok there might be another exception in a US think tank somewhere, but they have no constituency and no support at all).

Fisky

6 Dec 12 at 4:53 pm
I live in hope. It took Christianity 1500 years to get over religion.

Me too.

Christ, Abu. Did it really take you that long to find the flaws in the New Testament?

Fisky

6 Dec 12 at 4:59 pm
The problem is there are large blocs of people in some of these places who are way below the poverty line and uneducated. Egypt, for example, will need every minute of that 1500 years to get past the disaster of a Muslim Brotherhood regime.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 5:06 pm
Fisky, it took me two years at Marist Brothers…

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 5:07 pm
I’ve never believed that poverty is the cause of extremism. There is no evidence of any such correlation.

Fisky

6 Dec 12 at 5:20 pm
Idiot. Gaza is not the West Bank.

Are you sure I’m the idiot Abu? Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Elections in 2006 which were held in Gaza AND the West Bank.

Do you get that? The Palestinian people elected Hamas. They have the government they deserve.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 5:21 pm
You know nothing about what people here think and say.

How the hell do you know what I know? Are you psychic?

Hamas does not equal every Muslim.

No. But Hamas are Muslims. They were elected by Palestinians to represent and lead them.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 5:24 pm
It took Christianity 1500 years to get over religion.

It could also be suggested that it took that long for sovereigns to stop using Christianity to justify their own (often very UNChristian) agendas. How long will it take for Secular Humanism to get over religion?

Ellen of Tasmania

6 Dec 12 at 5:27 pm
And yet Abbas said that people needed to accept that they will never return so some of their villages even if there is a two state solution.

No. Abbas said he accepted HE would never return to live in his village. He made it clear he spoke for himself not others.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 5:28 pm
Complete bollocks.

Evidence?

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 5:30 pm
No. But Hamas are Muslims. They were elected by Palestinians to represent and lead them.

The Palestinians in Gaza, not the West Bank.

And there, in a nutshell, is your evidence. You’re the proof.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 5:35 pm
The Palestinians in Gaza, not the West Bank.

History is not your strong point is it Abu? Nor is comprehension by the look of things. I’ll repeat myself:

Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Elections in 2006 which were held in Gaza AND the West Bank.

Foreign aid was then suspended by western countries so they formed a unity government with Fatah. In 2007 Hamas took control of Gaza by force, defeating Fatah. Abbas dissolved the unity government by presidential decree and Fatah took the West Bank. They were not elected. Hence we now have Fatah in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 5:59 pm
In 2007 Hamas took control of Gaza by force,

How come this is never condemned? It’s all Israel this, Israel that but nothing on this invasion.

Gab

6 Dec 12 at 6:04 pm
It seems we can add logic to the list of things you need to try harder in.

Fisky’s post at 4:48 concluded with this para:

The overwhelming majority advocate up front the destruction of Israel, and a smart media-savvy minority call for a phoney “two state” solution with a majority of Arabs in both.

To which you replied:

Complete bollocks.

But pervasive bollocks.

I asked for evidence and you replied, quoting me:

No. But Hamas are Muslims. They were elected by Palestinians to represent and lead them.

The Palestinians in Gaza, not the West Bank.

And there, in a nutshell, is your evidence. You’re the proof.

So my comment that the Palestinians elected Hamas (or maybe just me) is proof that the belief that the majority of Muslims advocate the up front destruction of Israel is Bollocks.

WTF?

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 6:15 pm
How come this is never condemned?

How come there were no calls for a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank between 1948 and 1967?

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 6:16 pm
Muslims are not monolithic. The form is islam in south east Asia is very different to the ones in the ME. Jew-hatred is a feature of both, yet it seems to be less visceral and ‘more for show’ in SEA. Treated a little more like a slightly silly secret handshake.

The difference lies in islam coming in via trade in SEA and not by conquest, and in it being a layer over very deep layers of Buddhist, Hindu and animist religion and culture before it.

In private, with trusted non-mussi friends and where no co-religionist can hear them, there’s a good deal of admiration and sympathy for Israel, less Jew-hatred amongst educated Indonesians and malaysians than you’d think possible, and a lot of bitterness and dislike of the ‘effing barbarians’ AKA those Arabs who are wahabist and salafist. They admire certain wahabist and salafist ascetics, but certainly not the killers.

not much support for ‘that jihad sh*t’, either. In Malaysia a jihadi of wahabist/salafist bent can be (and some have been) charged with ‘religious perversion.’

Mk50 of Brisbane

6 Dec 12 at 7:04 pm
The form is islam in south east Asia is very different to the ones in the ME.

Not all of it though. Aceh and the southern three provinces of Thailand are jihadi central. Also Muslims in Maluku are always up for a bit of Jihad against the Christians there. Sulawesi had a religious war at the start of the century and beheading Christian schoolgirls isn’t unknown in those parts.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 7:47 pm
They were not elected. Hence we now have Fatah in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza.

So you have learnt something today.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 8:46 pm
There might have been some nice tolerant “moderate” nazis as well.

Just because they subscribe to an ideology which demands death to the Jews doesn’t mean they’re not nice family-loving peace-desiring guys !!11!!!

WHY ARE PEOPLE SO UNKIND??!!

sdog

6 Dec 12 at 9:17 pm
So you have learnt something today.

I certainly have.

You are as dumb as a stump and ignorant to boot.

jupes

6 Dec 12 at 9:22 pm
I hold the view Israel should treat Gaza like an illegally controlled rebel area, and retaliate with extreme prejudice (like I said, target the MB, Hamas and Hezbollah from the top down until they say uncle) and offer the olive branch to the West Bank. They should also do the same whilst going back to the original borders where practicable and get rid of settlers outside their borders.

It is a nonsense argument they will be finished if they do so. They won several wars from those borders and it presumes they are not making anticipatory, first strike attacks.

.

6 Dec 12 at 9:26 pm
It could also be suggested that it took that long for sovereigns to stop using Christianity to justify their own (often very UNChristian) agendas.

That too.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Dec 12 at 9:27 pm
I can’t believe how brain washed many people here are.

Here is what actually happened:
The region know known as ‘Israel’ has been Islamic for hundreds of years at least since 1500. The history before this is largely irrelevant as it effects no one alive today.

Around 1900 the population of what is now called isreal was well over 95% Arab Muslim, ruled by the Arab Ottoman Empire and used ottoman lcurrency through out.

The stupid myth about there always being a Jewish state just throws fuel on the fire.

When the Ottoman Empire was defeated the west established isreal and forced the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Arabs.

So you have one religion forcing hundreds of thousands from their homes because of believes about the land that are over 500 years old, the the other religion wanting the land back.

They are as bad as each other. Isreal holds the land only for religious reasons. They could have chosen to build a Jewish state anywhere, they picked it because Jews lived there thousands of years ago.

Unfortuently for them it just happened to be occupied by an even crazier religion.

I really have more sympathy for Palestines who fight to get back there grandfathers block of land than for the isreals who fight to hold some dust bowl because some book written by a caveman said so.

Mundi

6 Dec 12 at 9:57 pm
I know many palestinians, spot. None of them wants to kill Jews or Israelis.

Not that those people don’t exist.

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 9:59 pm
Also before some one says ‘but Jerusalem was 90% Jewish’ … Well duh, Arabs took the land 500+ years ago and realised it was worthless, so they let Jews congregate there for the $$$.

If isreal really wanted piece they should have just claimed the Jewish Jerusalem, and left the rest of the British mandate, were all the Arabs lived to the Arabs.

If they have back that land the fighting would stop. How do we know? Because that would effectively be e same situation the Arabs had under e Ottoman Empire, just with an independent Jew town.

Hopefully in a few more generations there will be no more Arabs around who have family effect by the displacement, and the war will fizzle out. I think people massively over play the role of the Arab religion in this conflict and underplay the role of the Jewish religion.

Both sides are illogical nitwits.

Mundi

6 Dec 12 at 10:06 pm
The region know known as ‘Israel’ has been Islamic for hundreds of years at least since 1500. The history before this is largely irrelevant as it effects no one alive today.

I can’t really see how 500 year old history is somehow more relevant to the Israeli/Palestinian situation than 1000 year old history. Maybe the grandad’s land has relevance, but anything before that is dubious.

John Mc

6 Dec 12 at 10:07 pm
Jupes, my discussing this with you would be like Tony Abbott taking political advice from Steve from Brisbane. I lack the energy to bring the expertise of my day job into any Cat discussion on the Middle East – it’s nugatory.

Best & etc

Abu Chowdah

6 Dec 12 at 10:07 pm
Yes they are. But they are not nice people. They are barbarians. They elected The ALP, an economic terrorist organisation.

Just thought a bit of paraphrasing was in order.

kelly liddle

7 Dec 12 at 1:03 am
Jupes, my discussing this with you would be like Tony Abbott taking political advice from Steve from Brisbane.

Correct.

I suggest you study history, English and logic then maybe you will make some sense.

jupes

7 Dec 12 at 8:46 am
Here is what actually happened:

Wow. A lesson from a master historian. We are so lucky.

The history before this is largely irrelevant as it effects no one alive today.

Except that the Jewish people originated there and Jews have lived there continuously for thousands of years.

The stupid myth about there always being a Jewish state just throws fuel on the fire.

Well yes it is a stupid myth but you are the only one I have ever heard say it.

When the Ottoman Empire was defeated the west established isreal and forced the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Arabs.

So you have one religion forcing hundreds of thousands from their homes because of believes about the land that are over 500 years old, the the other religion wanting the land back.

Are you sure that’s what happened Mr Master Historian? I seem to recall there was a bit more to it than that. Didn’t the Arab armies in 1948 tell the locals to move out while they dealt with the Jews?

They are as bad as each other.

Of course they are. One side fires 2200 high explosive rockets at civilians while the other builds houses. No difference at all.

They could have chosen to build a Jewish state anywhere

Germany? Poland? USSR? Iran? I’m sure everyone would have been lining up to give land to the Jews. Think of all the love they shown them over the years.

I really have more sympathy for Palestines…

I’m not surprised given the quality of your analysis.

…who fight to get back there grandfathers block of land than for the isreals who fight to hold some dust bowl because some book written by a caveman said so.

Cavemen could write books? Who knew? It’s insights like this that make you the master historian that you are. But what about the equal number of Jews who were kicked out of surrounding Islamic countries and have settled in Israel? No sympathy for them getting Grandad’s block of land back?

Thanks for the post Mundi. I feel I’ve learnt something today.

jupes

7 Dec 12 at 9:21 am
What happened before 1948 is irrelevant.

Hamas and Hezbollah don’t care about land rights.

Fatah might have a long time ago.

Even if Israel goes back to the mandate borders, then what becomes of Palestine is still a matter for Palestinians…unless Egypt, Lebanon or Jordan wants a piece of the action.

There will be two states soon, regardless of what backers of Israel want or like.

Israel needs to strike the root. Go after the MB, Hamas, Hezbollah and try to encourage palestine to be civil.

I suspect much like the Lebanese they mostly “vote” for Hamas etc only under compulsion of AK47 wielding thugs.

.

7 Dec 12 at 9:29 am
But wait there’s more:

Well duh, Arabs took the land 500+ years ago and realised it was worthless, so they let Jews congregate there for the $$$.

So the land is worthless. However now they want it back. Go figure.

If isreal really wanted piece they should have just claimed the Jewish Jerusalem, and left the rest of the British mandate, were all the Arabs lived to the Arabs.

So you would have all the Jews living in the Jewish Quarter of the old city, or would you give them a bit more land outside the walls? I think you missed your calling as a master diplomat.

If they have back that land the fighting would stop.

Well soon after anyway. In about the time it takes them to raze the small portion of Jerusalem with all the Jews in it.

How do we know?

Do tell Mr Master Historian.

Because that would effectively be e same situation the Arabs had under e Ottoman Empire, just with an independent Jew town.

Jew Town! Love it. Of course you know the Jews had to live as second class citizens don’t you. But hey, they’re only Jews right?

Hopefully in a few more generations there will be no more Arabs around who have family effect by the displacement, and the war will fizzle out.

Well there aren’t many Arabs alive today who are affected by the displacement. Not much fizzling happening though. Must be about to start, right Mundi?

I think people massively over play the role of the Arab religion in this conflict and underplay the role of the Jewish religion.

Yes the Religion of Peace has a very bad rap while those evil Jews have been getting away it.

Both sides are illogical nitwits.

Too bad there aren’t clear thinkers like you involved Mundi. Perhaps you should go there to impart your wisdom.

jupes

7 Dec 12 at 9:48 am
Yes they are. But they are not ~~nice~~ bright people. They are ~~barbarians~~ idiots. They elected The ALP, an ~~economic~~ ~~terrorist~~ incompetent and corrupt organisation.

I think we are getting there now Kelly.

jupes

7 Dec 12 at 1:42 pm
I suspect much like the Lebanese they mostly “vote” for Hamas etc only under compulsion of AK47 wielding thugs.

It is such a tribalistic culture that it’s almost impossible for the ‘moderates’ to try to differentiate themselves from the terrorists. It goes to the core of their social as well as personal identity.

John Mc

7 Dec 12 at 2:13 pm
jupes
I will not back down on my economic terrorism claim. For it to be true it has to have only caused one person to be very afraid of what will happen to Australia’s economic future to be true. The ALP has struck this fear into me. The US 15 years ago was in approximately the same situation we are now. So I understand how quickly a country can go down the tubes. If the ALP won the next 2 unwinnable elections which is not an impossibility and continued on their current path we would be well on our way.

kelly liddle

7 Dec 12 at 2:17 pm
I suggest you study history, English and logic then maybe you will make some sense.

Now, now, Jupes. I can see that you yearn for my attention, validation and approval, but on this topic you’ll just have to educate yourself independently. This is an excellent place to start for someone like you who will never travel here nor meet with any of those affected.

Abu Chowdah

7 Dec 12 at 5:32 pm
Abu, is it a factual book or another da Jews done wrong book?

Gab

7 Dec 12 at 5:47 pm
Abu – there is a more recent edition. Can’t find it on kindle though.

Sinclair Davidson

7 Dec 12 at 5:48 pm
…for someone like you who will never travel here nor meet with any of those affected.

Again. Still, you have no idea what you are talking about.

jupes

7 Dec 12 at 6:02 pm
Gab, more of a “the Brits done wrong” book. (If you think after all these years that I am anti-Israel, you haven’t been paying attention).

Sinc, I just grabbed the first Amazon Link, but I think I have the latest. If you haven’t read it, it’s excellent.

Abu Chowdah

7 Dec 12 at 6:14 pm
Nah, just asking for your opinion, Abu is all. Seems the only difference between the 2001 and 2009 edition is the Afterword.

Gab

7 Dec 12 at 6:22 pm

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