Baby Joe arrives

There has been great excitement in our family with the arrival of baby Joe, first son of my first daughter.

One of the offerings promised by the government – I’m not quite sure which level, actually – is one home visit by a midwife/mother craft nurse.

My daughter duly rang to make a time for the visit.  This is the information she received.

  • The service goes on holiday for four weeks from mid-December.  So bad luck if you have a baby in that time period.
  • The call centre to make bookings is only open from 9am to 12 noon and 2pm to 4pm, weekdays.
  • The operator asks an amazing number of intrusive questions, including the suggestion that it would be better to wander down to the local Infant Welfare Centre, or whatever it is called.
  • The questions include: is it easy to park outside your house?  (The appointment is abandoned if the nurse cannot get a park, she was told.) Does the nurse have to take off her shoes to enter the house.  (Another reason for abandoment.) Are renovations being undertaken?  Is there a history of domestic violence in the house?  Is there a history of drug or alchol abuse in the house?  And the questions went on.
  • She has managed to make a time for an appointment, nearly three weeks after the baby was born, but we shall see.

In the meantime, on the recommendation of her obstetrician, she secured the services of a private nurse, who came two days after Joe and mother left hospital.  My daughter texted her to say that an hour after the original time would be better for her and that was no problem. She visited for about an hour and half.

She was excellent – matter of fact, informative, empathetic and worth every penny.

All this got me thinking about the challenges that face an expanded NDIS.  If governments cannot even organise the relative simple task of providing home-based assistance to new mothers, one really wonders how this much larger scale project can ever be achieved efficiently and in ways that meet the needs of people with disabilities.

By the way, Joe is flourshing.

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174 Responses to Baby Joe arrives

  1. Sinclair Davidson

    So we going to call you, “nana”, “granny”, “grandma”, … ?

  2. This topic was discussed here once before, and I noted (in response to someone who thought this was some innovative outrageous infringement on privacy or liberty or something) that 12 years ago, my first was born in the public ward of the Mater Hospital in Brisbane. A home visit was organised at the hospital, with little fuss. I think it was within the first week of discharge.

    I was always under the impression that one of its main reasons was to ensure no post natal depression for the mother, as well as a just a general check that the parents had some idea of what they were doing.

    Other readers at the time noted that they had these visits too.

    Is it just Victoria that has some problem with organising this?

    But, anyway, congratulations.

  3. .

    The questions include: is it easy to park outside your house? (The appointment is abandoned if the nurse cannot get a park, she was told.) Does the nurse have to take off her shoes to enter the house. (Another reason for abandoment.) Are renovations being undertaken? Is there a history of domestic violence in the house? Is there a history of drug or alchol abuse in the house? And the questions went on.

    This is when we reply “shove it, Tokyo Rose”

    Anyway, well done, Nanna.

    All this got me thinking about the challenges that face an expanded NDIS.

    If the NDIS is going to have 8000 staff and 18200 people become disabled every year, I assume this means each public servant will have a caseload of less than three clients per year.

    What a joke.

  4. Congratulations.
    There are many ways to celebrate the birth of a grandchild. Using the occasion to have a dig at the public sector is at the shabby end of the continuum.

    she secured the services of a private nurse

    Your daughter has the means to do so.
    Many others may not. They may have to rely on the services that you have so comprehensively maligned.

    So bad luck if you have a baby in that time period.

    Ever noticed that all the private medicos (especially the specialists) take a long break across Christmas?
    Those dreadful public emergency departments never close down….
    Spoken like a true Glibertarian.

  5. Congratulations to you and your family, Judith from Chez Bogan.

    After my offspring was born (in a public hospital) we had a visit from the nurse within the first week to see how we were doing, and then one more, before we were allocated a ‘parenting group’ and the nearest centre. I dumped the ‘mothers’ group’ as I didn’t really connect with any of them, but had no issue with the actual service.

    Of course, that was 10 years ago and things have changed since then.

    There were no intrusive questions like those, although these days they are no surprise. Not when even the police are expected to pander(pdf) to other cultural norms.

    No matter for now, though. Enjoy your grandson – he’ll grow up quickly enough. :D

  6. .

    There are many ways to celebrate the birth of a grandchild. Using the occasion to have a dig at the public sector is at the shabby end of the continuum.

    Using someone else’s newborn to tell them what the fuck they can and cannot do has the ethics of a wombat trying to pass on it’s DNA.

    Your daughter has the means to do so.
    Many others may not. They may have to rely on the services that you have so comprehensively maligned.

    …what’s your point? Public hospitals are awful places. If you can afford private care and don’t opt for it, you are a misanthrope.

    Ever noticed that all the private medicos (especially the specialists) take a long break across Christmas?

    Numbers is against conscription and will cry how he had to peel spuds but wants to conscript all of those greedy bastard doctors…you know, like oncologists?

    He then claims he is so well to do that he works “for the fun of it”.

    Those dreadful public emergency departments never close down….
    Spoken like a true Glibertarian.

    They are pretty dreadful, one only has to look at golden staph infections in public hospitals to know this. Why are you are glibertarian now?

  7. candy

    Christmas is a stressy time for all Mums, a new mum with an unsettled but otherwise healthy bub,

    might find a talk with the baby nurse just the ticket.

    Joe – short for Joseph? a lovely name.

  8. @noname

    Published data for these indicators suggest that infection rates rarely differ between
    the public and private hospital systems.

    Extract from recent data on hospital-acquired infections.
    Why do you always post complete crap?

  9. .

    Published data for these indicators suggest that infection rates rarely differ between
    the public and private hospital systems.

    No. Golden staph. Do not change the topic.

    People go in for more complicated surgeries in private hospitals, short of motor vehicle trauma. Getting a mild infection after a serious tumour removal isn’t uncommon.

    Why do you always lie, numbers?

  10. Gab

    Table 6.1 in that link tells a different tale though.

  11. Infidel Tiger

    Does the nurse have to take off her shoes to enter the house. (Another reason for abandoment.)

    Surprised they can get away with this, but I like it.

  12. .

    Yes I know Gab, I skimmed the chapter in detail and numbers isn’t just lying about MRSA, he’s a full spectrum liar.

  13. @noname

    People go in for more complicated surgeries in private hospitals, short of motor vehicle trauma.

    Provide evidence of the comparative rates or slink back into your hole.
    The stats I referred to cover all infections of which Golden Staph is the most prevalent.
    You prevaricate, obfuscate, produce red herrings, but mostly you bullshit….
    @ Gab
    Read the whole article.

  14. .

    Stop lying numbers, we’ve read the chapter of that report.

  15. .

    People go in for more complicated surgeries in private hospitals, short of motor vehicle trauma.

    Provide evidence of the comparative rates or slink back into your hole.

    Err, okay, they go into public hospitals for oncology, plastic surgery and hip replacements, and they go into private hospitals for emergency surgery.

    Happy?

  16. The relevant extracts are -

    Sound comparisons between the public and private sectors on the basis of
    hospital-acquired infections is necessary with a clear need to set benchmarks and
    identify best practice. One of the performance benchmarks adopted under the NHA is
    that the rate of Staphylococcus aureus (including MRSA) bacteraemia be no more than
    2.0 per 10 000 occupied bed days for acute care public hospitals by 2011-12 in each
    state and territory.

    Refutes –

    No. Golden staph. Do not change the topic.

    And

    Published data for these indicators suggest that infection rates rarely differ between
    the public and private hospital systems.
    In 2007 (the latest published data), only
    four of the 47 CIP indicators of healthcare-associated infections had a statistically
    significant difference between public and private hospitals (table 6.1).4 In the few
    cases where such differences were evident, the data suggest that the private sector
    consistently outperformed the public sector. However, this could be misleading
    because the CIP is not designed to monitor the relative performance of the public
    and private sectors.
    It is a service offered to individual healthcare providers to help
    them improve their service quality

  17. Ko Ko Joe. Because you can never have too much cowbell.

    Congrats, Judith!

  18. Here’s a very recent report on a study on how these at home visits are going. Some key points:

    Over 4000 women took part in the survey undertaken by Murdoch Children’s Research Institute. The study examined (1) the proportion of women admitted to hospital as public patients receiving postnatal home visits; (2) a range of sociodemographic, obstetric and organisational factors associated with women receiving postnatal home visits and (3) women’s overall rating of postnatal home care; with comparisons made within and between the two states.

    “We found that the majority of women in public maternity care in Victoria and South Australia received at least one domiciliary midwifery visit in the first week after they left hospital and the majority of these rated their care positively. However, there were significant state differences both in the groups of women who received care, and in their experiences. Victorian women were less likely to receive a visit and to rate their care positively.

    “Of particular concern is the finding that in both states younger women, women on a lower income, those holding a healthcare concession card or women who had not completed secondary education were less likely to receive a home visit in their first weeks at home. Whilst the majority of women received home care and rated it positively, an inverse care law seems to apply: women who were more likely to need and derive benefit from home care were less likely to receive it. However, these women may also have chosen not to receive home postnatal visits, perhaps seeing them as inappropriate in their circumstances.

    It seems my hunch might be right: for whatever reason, Victoria seems to implement this scheme a bit worse than other states.

    But even so, it works for the majority of women who get a visit in the first week.

    I doubt major lessons can be drawn from this for NDIS: it seems simply a matter that some States can learn better from other States how to deal with health issues.

  19. Err, okay, they go into public hospitals for oncology, plastic surgery and hip replacements, and they go into private hospitals for emergency surgery.

    They are admitted to both private and public hospitals for all of the above.
    Red herring.

  20. Gab

    The results show that private hospitals risk adjusted mortality rates are less than half of those in public hospitals.
    Public hospitals 0.632
    Public contract hospitals 0.540
    Private hospitals 0.305
    All hospitals 0.550

    ———————-
    The Commission has found that on average treatment in Private Hospitals costs $130 less than
    in Public Hospitals.
     The Commission’s data shows that when looking at the costs that private hospitals can control
    they cost 32% or $1,089 less than public hospitals.
     According to the report private hospitals have a more complex casemix than public hospitals.
     Where comparable safety and quality data exists in the report private hospitals are shown to be
    safer than public hospitals.
     Private hospitals offer more timely access to elective surgery, and analysis by the Commission
    shows that private hospitals carry out more elective surgery with patients from disadvantaged
    socioeconomic backgrounds than public hospitals.

    http://www.apha.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/APHA-Analysis-of-Productivity-Commission-final-report.pdf

  21. lotocoti

    Back to topic.
    So you were a child bride, Judith.

  22. duncanm

    Judith,

    congratulations..

    I must say, though, the best advice I heard as a parent (or gave to prospective parents) is “Ignore all advice and do what you think is sensible and feels right”

    The public health midwives are great at first… then we found that at each checkup they became intrusive and felt the need to find something to criticize about the performance (weight, height, whatever) of our children.

    Please advise your daughter to ignore most of this.

  23. Greg P.

    By the way, Joe is flourshing.

    Congratulations.

    Having a child is an indication of faith and hope in the future…not that I’m an optimist or anything.

  24. Judith Sloan

    By the way, my daughter is not in Victoria.

    Yes, Joseph William.

  25. Congratulations Judith, great to hear Joseph William is flourishing.

    Enjoy your new grandmotherly duty to spoil him rotten.

  26. .

    Thanks Gab. If that doesn’t shut idiot spud peeler up, what will?

    Once again, congratulations, Nanna.

  27. Biota

    Congrats Judith and Daughter. JC will be thrilled by the naming :)

  28. Jarrah

    Congratulations, Judith.

    “Does the nurse have to take off her shoes to enter the house. (Another reason for abandoment.)”

    How weird. The only reason I can think of is that sensible nursing shoes are protection against dropped needles, glass containers, etc, and it might be against OH&S rules to take them off while performing nursing duties. It would be the kind of one-size-fits-all over-regulation that we can expect from our nanny state.

  29. stackja

    My GP is available Monday to Friday 9am to 6pm and Saturday 9am to noon. I believe he is allowed some time off. Governments only recently got really involved in health with Medibank. Many voluntary doctors had to quit hospitals because of Medibank. Governments always find a way to have bureaucracies create more problems then solutions.

  30. Anne

    Call call Joey, wee poppett! You’ve chosen a really nice family.

  31. Anne

    GOOD call Joey, wee poppet! You’ve chosen a really nice family.

  32. Anne

    The shoe thing is irritating. Recently asked to do this at an ‘open’ house inspection.

    The assumption is that their floors are cleaner than my feet! Doubtful.

  33. OldOzzie

    Judith,

    congratulations, I assume 1st Grandson, your joys will be many.

    Just on the Visiting Nurse, one thing the Govt and HCF have done that is good, is Free Doctor Home Visits after hours.

    With our youngest grandson living with us, his parents were concerned with a rash that was fast developing and used the HCF Home Doctor Service – available from 6pm to 0800 – Doctor arrived in 3 hours – previously 1 hour, obviating visit to emergency outpatients and exposure to other patients for my granchild – results of the visit are on forwarded to their own GP.

    A great concept, reduces calls on Emergency Depts of Hospitals and is faster than visits to Outpatients, tying up resources that can be better utilised for real emergencies

  34. The assumption is that their floors are cleaner than my feet! Doubtful.

    ? The assumption is that your feet are cleaner than the soles of your shoes.

  35. sdog

    Steve, aren’t you even a little bit embarrassed that the assumption you made, and which was the cornerstone for two of your typically excruciating hectoring know-it-all pronouncements, was wrong?

    Chuckleheaded wrongologist.

  36. Anne

    You want to think about that for a second Steve?

  37. Anne

    Cut him some slack sdog. Poor Steve, never makes a comment without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.

  38. Chris

    How weird. The only reason I can think of is that sensible nursing shoes are protection against dropped needles, glass containers, etc, and it might be against OH&S rules to take them off while performing nursing duties. It would be the kind of one-size-fits-all over-regulation that we can expect from our nanny state.

    I’d assume the shoe requirement is an OH&S issue. And given some of the houses they’d be visiting is a reasonable one (eg there may well be syringes or sharp objects lying around on the floor). As are the questions regarding alcohol and domestic violence. For mental health visits for example they often send two nurses rather than one for safety reasons.

    My experience of the maternal nurses whether they be public or private (we had both, though only the latter visited our home) is that some can be rather overbearing and judgemental which is not helpful as many parents are quite vulnerable during the first few weeks of their first child. But as a parent its something you’ll need to get used to in the long term. Everyone feels free to judge your decisions with very little background information!

    If you don’t have medical people in your family it is very useful to go for regular checkups either to a nurse or doctor because if there are developmental problems the sooner they are picked up and treated the better the long term outcome. The free nurse help lines in some states/territories have been pretty handy to avoid emergency visits too (good at least for inexperienced new parents).

  39. Jarrah

    “And given some of the houses they’d be visiting is a reasonable one (eg there may well be syringes or sharp objects lying around on the floor).”

    Sure, but why can’t the nurse make a decision on arrival, rather than there being a blanket rule that a no-shoe household means no visit?

  40. Token

    When we had our first we. We’re in an apartment in Sydney eastern suburbs. Any nurse that isn’t willing to park and walk isn’t seeing any patients.

    About the shoes. FFS it is just good manners to respect the wishes of the household, especially if they want to build a report with the mother so the message sticks.

    We did find the nurse rather inflexible and preachy, but with good intentions.

  41. Anne

    “…build a report…” Token ???

    Would she then file a report about the rapport she’d established?

  42. Token

    Anne ’twas the autocorrect on the iPad again. You know what I meant.

  43. Anne

    Sorry Token. That was mean…but…mildly amusing…yeah?

  44. Token

    It was Anne, and very apt considering how much the health bureaucracies seem to value a report over a rapport.

  45. Anne

    LOL. Excellent retort Token…. or is that ‘rettor’?

  46. Someone will have to draw me a diagram as to why the reason people ask for shoes to be removed is the assumption that feet are cleaner than soles of shoes.

  47. I’ll try that again – as to why the assumption is not that feet are cleaner than soles of shoes.

  48. sdog – why would I embarrassed about suggesting that some states might do this home visit thing better than others?

  49. candy

    The shoe removing may be about visiting a Muslim family, and nurses are forewarned so as to observe protocol and not offend.

  50. Anne

    Grab a pad and pencil, Steve, and 20 or 30 IQ points and we’ll talk you through it.

    I’ll put the kettle on. This could take a while…

  51. Ellen of Tasmania

    Congratulation Judith et al! A wonderful excuse to enjoy those Pooh books all over again.

  52. tbh

    Am I the only one who finds this business of organising a visit from a nurse a little odd? My kids were born in the US, so I’ve not experienced this practice. The visit is optional, right?

    The best advice I got about parenting was to not listen to any advice about parenting. It’s served us pretty well.

  53. Anne

    Am I the only one who finds this business of organising a visit from a nurse a little odd?

    No, tbh, I concur! I also note that no one has suggested its a waste of taxpayers money either.

    Talk about Nanny State!

  54. sdog

    Am I the only one who finds this business of organising a visit from a nurse a little odd?

    No, I do as well – but like you I come at it from an American viewpoint.

    Having nurses (who in a nationalised healthcare system are agents of the State) come do “inspections” of the new mum, her bub, her house, etc, “just checking things out” (and reporting to whom?), strikes me as incredibly creepy.

    In the US I think the only women who’d be subject to an intrusion by a government agency such as that would be those on probation or deemed “at risk” for cause by child protection services.

    But then again, as Americans start handing more and more responsibility for their day to day care and welfare to the State (hello Obamacare!), they too will soon find that they have also handed away any concomitant rights to freedom & privacy. You can’t beg the government to do everything for you and then expect them to leave you alone when it comes to following up on their “investment”.

  55. sdog

    sdog – why would I embarrassed …

    You numpty. You assumed her daughter was in Victoria, so you condescendingly pontificated know-it-all-style at length on how this was a good example of how inferior Victoria was.

    Clown.

  56. Let’s look at the Australian Private Hospital’s Association Analysis of the Productivity Commission’s “Public and Private Hospitals”.

    First of all, it needs to be read with the clear understanding that it was produced as a defence against the findings of the PC, In other words, it’s not objective. It’s spin.

    Some conclusions from the PC’s original analysis relevant to the topic –

    Costs –

    The Commission’s experimental cost estimates suggest that, at a national level in2007-08, public and private hospitals had broadly similar costs per
    case mix-adjusted separation. (Finding 5.2)

    Hospital-acquired infections-

    Australia does not have a robust nationally-consistent data collection on
    hospital-acquired infections. The limited available evidence suggests that private hospitals have lower infection rates than public hospitals, but this result could be misleading because private hospitals generally treat patients who have a lower risk of infection. A more definitive finding will require the development of data collections that enable risk differences between hospitals to be distinguished from genuine differences in performance. (Finding 6.1)

    Other Partial Indicators –

    Timely access to elective surgery is less likely in public hospitals than in private hospitals. The relatively high bed occupancy rates in public hospitals restrict their ability to manage their unpredictable workload. Equity of access is more likely in public hospitals than private hospitals, since public hospitals provide relatively more elective surgery to patients from poor socioeconomic areas and from remote areas of Australia. (Finding 7.2)

    Multivariate Analysis –

    The efficiencies of public and private hospitals were broadly similar, except that:
    – Large and very large private hospitals were slightly more technically efficient than public hospitals
    – Very small and small public hospitals were more technically efficient than private hospitals, although this may in part reflect the way such hospitals were modelled in the analysis.

    The APHA’s analysis completely ignores these findings. It attempts to distract by cherry picking the data and providing an “executive summary” that is pure spin.
    For example –

    The Commission has found that on average treatment in Private Hospitals costs $130 less than in Public Hospitals.

    Of course it does. First of all, $130, even as an average, is meaningless when overall costs are considered. It doesn’t break this down, because to do so would show up just how dodgy this “statistic” actually is.

    A disaggregation of the Commission’s experimental cost estimates by diagnosis-related groups (DRGs) suggests that in 2007-08:
    Nearly one-fifth of DRGs had an average cost in public hospitals that was at least 10 per cent lower than in private hospitals, and about half of DRGs had an average cost in public hospitals that was more than 10 per cent higher than in private hospitals.
    Almost three-fifths of surgical DRGs had a cost per separation in public hospitals that was at least 10 per cent higher than in private hospitals, and
    medical DRGs were where public hospitals performed most strongly in terms of cost relative to the private sector.(Finding 5.3).

    From the APHA’s analysis –

    The Commission’s data shows that when looking at the costs that private hospitals can control they cost 32% or $1,089 less than public hospitals.

    This is not borne out anywhere in the PC’s report. The data that my have been cherry-picked is this –

    There were significant differences between public and private hospitals in the composition of costs. For general hospital costs, public hospitals were estimated to be more costly than private hospitals ($2552 versus $1953 at the national level).
    This was also the case with the experimental estimates of capital costs ($426 versus
    $230). Conversely, average prostheses costs were estimated to be much lower in public hospitals ($131 versus $542). Average medical and diagnostics costs were also lower in public hospitals ($798 versus $1346). A similar pattern in the cost components was evident at the jurisdiction level. (Finding 5.3)

    It ain’t as cut and dried as the APHA’s spin concludes.

    There is also the rider –

    Very large hospitals were estimated to have among the highest cost per casemix-adjusted separation. This probably reflects the tendency of the largest
    hospitals to treat patients with the most complex clinical conditions, maintain a capability for major trauma events that is rarely used, and provide a large proportion of clinical training.

    The APHA’s analysis concludes –

    Where comparable safety and quality data exists in the report private hospitals are shown to be safer than public hospitals.

    In the first place, there is the rider that “where comparable safety and quality data exists”. A close reading of the PC’s report indicates that it doesn’t at this stage of the game. The other rider – to quote from the report –

    This result could be misleading because private hospitals generally treat patients who have a lower risk of infection. (Finding 6.1)

    So where does that leave us in the context of Noname’s original contention –

    “They are pretty dreadful; one only has to look at golden staph infections in public hospitals to know this.”

    The data shows a difference, but it is not consistent, and in no way does it indicate that the golden staph rate in public hospitals is “pretty dreadful”. It is not much different from the rate in private hospitals.

    Gab’s posting of the APHA’s spin makes no difference to the facts. Some salient considerations include that the public system provides access to all, which is a major issue when you live in say, Roma, or Longreach or Emerald.

    It also provides round the clock emergency treatment unavailable in the bulk of private hospitals.

    The public system also doesn’t clock your ticket when you walk (or are stretchered) through the door.

    Conversations with the medicos in my family indicate that the best indicator of quality is the skill and dedication of the individual practitioner. My GP brother insists that there is no difference between public and private in this specific. Given that his hobby is emergency medicine, and he works across both systems, I’d give that some credence.

    So noname’s glib stereotype amounts to bullshit.
    Hence “Glibetarian”.
    It fits….

  57. sdog

    Good lord. Somebody buy Numbers his own blog already.

  58. John Mc

    Congratulations Judith. The world needs more of your genes so this is undoubtedly a great thing for all of us!!

  59. John Mc

    Good lord. Somebody buy Numbers his own blog already.

    I’m willing to bet he has one just nobody ever visits it.

  60. Chris

    Sure, but why can’t the nurse make a decision on arrival, rather than there being a blanket rule that a no-shoe household means no visit?

    Just a guess on my part, but perhaps to avoid conflict where they do have to decline to enter the household as the occupant is likely to be offended?

    The shoe removing may be about visiting a Muslim family, and nurses are forewarned so as to observe protocol and not offend.

    Not just muslim either. The households I know of that have a shoes off policy are asian but christian (it seems to be a pretty common policy for houses in Asia). So for them its a cultural thing rather than a religious one. I have a general shoes off policy in my house simply because it makes keeping the floors (tiled) cleaner a lot easier. And the last place I had was wooden floors where if someone had say a small rock stuck in their shoes it could damage the floors quite easily and quickly. I don’t try to enforce the shoes off rules for those who really don’t want to though.

  61. Anne

    Numbers, don’t you have a crotch to stuff?

  62. Tom

    Having nurses (who in a nationalised healthcare system are agents of the State) come do “inspections” of the new mum, her bub, her house, etc, “just checking things out” (and reporting to whom?), strikes me as incredibly creepy.

    X2.

  63. Anne

    It’s not creepy Tom, it’s Government paternalism! It’s the State interfering, monitoring and regulating EVERY aspect of our lives.

    I find it frightening!

  64. Adam Diver

    Having nurses (who in a nationalised healthcare system are agents of the State) come do “inspections” of the new mum, her bub, her house, etc, “just checking things out” (and reporting to whom?), strikes me as incredibly creepy.

    Absolutely, but in a perfect world is a wonderful idea. We have a lovely midwife in our town who has now started home visits, and although its not a huge concern for baby number 4, baby number 1 was really helpful. And I would be reasonably certain that the real purpose behind these visits is PND as the mother would be unlikely to seek help on their own.

    Having said that though, there is always bound to be a little good in any government program. The idea of screening the entire population of new mothers to find the x% of PND sufferers screams of beauracracy and knowing the holier-than-thou attitude of many (not all) in the nursing industry is a terrible, terrible concept.

    My solution to treating PND? Don’t have one, not every problem needs a solution, particularly a state-backed and funded one. Perhaps the family unit could take back its role from the state and make sure mum is OK.

    So X3 for me

  65. I find it frightening!

    Don’t be afraid. Just make sure you wear your tinfoil hat at all times.

  66. Anne

    It’s not Mind Control I worry about RJ. I just want to run my own life.

    Thanks for the demo though, I can make a nice roast with that.

  67. Leigh Lowe

    By the way, Joe is flourshing.

    Flourshing?
    What means this word?
    Is it some form of wheat milling technique?

  68. Anne

    Ha, I was just thinking that Leigh. I so wanted to correct it to a more appropriate word like “Thriving” but I’ve been so bitchy on this thread already and … I fear Judith.

  69. pete m

    Congratulations Judith.

    My 2 girls arrived before this program, so cannot comment.

    Both girls came into this world in a private hospital and had a nurse we arrangec ome help out a few times at home.

    Private cost a fair whack which the baby bonus barely covered, but so be it.

    Cost is nothing compared to their being with us.

    re NDIS – 18,000 added per year on top of initial intake means those 8000 p/s will be very busy indeed.

    An example of how this might be bureau bad is public trustee managed funds over private – ppl get the run around by the p/t etc.

    good luck nan!

  70. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Safe arrival with all fingers and toes and hiccups. Excellent! They are so lovely when they are freshly baked. Well done new Mum and Dad. Special congratulations, Nana/Grannie/Grandma/Narnie/JooJoo or whatever it will be for you. Weight? A big one or a little one?

    It must feel very grand to be grand, Judith.

    Hope mum and dad enjoy the practice run and ignore everything but advice they are happy to take and that they can easily give up if it doesn’t work.

  71. hzhousewife

    Congratulations Judith, and well done to your daughter.

    In my view, enough sleep is the essence of good mothering. May baby Joe be an ongoing delight to all the family.

  72. .

    Piss off numbers, you are wrong.

    Public hospitals are death traps.

  73. Public hospitals are death traps.

    Another glib statement.
    Provide statistics to back it up, or crawl back into your cesspit.

  74. .

    You provided “statistics” which proved yourself wrong.

    Anyone who read the chapter of that PC report would sensibly call you a liar.

    The summary notes disprove everything you said, the chapter itself merely reinforces each point.

    Gab provided data that showed private hospitals are safer , have more complicated patient loads and look after the less well off.

    Now, piss off you untalented, whinging, attention seeking, dishonest piece of shit.

    Another glib statement.

    The truth. Public hosptials are deathtraps.

    Now fuck off. You’re as useful as a book on the rosary in a brothel.

  75. Thich Nhat Hanh

    We are lonely in Plum Village without you, numbers. As always, live in the present, and eat jelly beans.

  76. @noname
    God you’re thick.
    The productivity commission report says it all. Read my summary.
    The APHA’s analysis is spin.
    You make unfounded statements based on bigotry and ignorance, and abuse people when you’re called on it.
    You’re also about as boring as a CWA meeting.
    But you are fun to play with…..

  77. John Mc

    You make unfounded statements based on bigotry and ignorance, and abuse people when you’re called on it.

    Like citing this as proof the government’s roof insulation debacle didn’t have an unusually high level of installer deaths?

  78. Alice

    Congrats Sinclair.
    Thats nice news. All the best to Mother and baby Joe.

    I know how they can ask instrusive questions these days in hospitals and via health delarpments when ahemm… they are supposed to be performing a service arent they – that ahemmm..couogh splutter..is supposed to be actually caring for people and not covering their own arses from being sued.

    Case in point my Mum was taken to her local hospital…hours later, admitted and multiple forms later…it was decided it was too late to operate and subsequently her appendix ruptured causing numerous complications because apparently its OK to leave it there days more than 24 hours…

    while my Mum got asked to respond in the admission forms “Is there an animal at home that needs looking after”??

    Like who cares? The animal can starve. This is my Mum, you know a human being??

    Gone mad we have. Its Govt fear of being sued. Thats all it is. Thats what rules. They have dropped the ball in terms of providing a health service properly a long time ago. Its BS.

  79. Alice

    Dot is right. Public hopsitals are death traps on so many levels now its scary.

  80. Alice

    But Dot – for those who cant afford public hopsitals what are you advocating – that they die in the street? You fail to clarify yourself fully.

  81. Alice

    sorry “for those who cant afford private hopsitals’

    Fix the public hospitals. Get the damn lawyers out of writing procedure manuals to cover their arses.

  82. kae

    Congratulations Sinc, what?

  83. kae

    If I got carted off to hospital I’d be pretty upset if my pets died while I was away.

    Some people only have their pets as companions, and noone to take care of them if they are suddenly kept from home.

  84. Alice

    Chris

    ” Sure, but why can’t the nurse make a decision on arrival, rather than there being a blanket rule that a no-shoe household means no visit?

    Just a guess on my part, but perhaps to avoid conflict where they do have to decline to enter the household as the occupant is likely to be offended?

    Oh come on. This is crap. Some idiot is sitting in an office at a desk writing these stupid questions (on behalf of lawyers so a plank of scafolding from a reno doesnt fall on a nurses head and they..the government doesnnt get sued

    and then some in a call centre has to take the call from Joe’s Mum and that person has a list (read ten lists) of questions to ask Joe’s Mum, who halfway through the questions wonders why she bothered ring at all,…and no they have to ask about shoes off polixy in case someone of a differnt culture sues the government for the shoe walking in the shoeless house by a nurse wearing shoes who failed to notice three empty pairs near the front door etc

    Then there is probably a question on “so you have a dog? What type of dog. Do you have a proper chain, gate lock etc”

    I suppose it is cheaper to pay someone to sit at a call desk and get rid of all new mums bookings so the nurse doesnt have to actually visit?

    So typical of the sick public healthy system, which was not sick 30 and 40 years ago. Its a disgrace its gotten to this.

  85. Alice

    Kae – the point I was making is that my Mum was answering reams of questions (a small whole folder full while she was sick in emergency with a ruptured appendix at the age of 70). As an ex nurse trained properly I was horrified to the lack of attention being given to her deteriorating condition, in oreference to paper shuffling. At least I was trained properly and not handed the equivalent of a ten thousand word questionairre to ask new damissions when I was nursing. I feel sorry for these nurses now who are supposed to be nursing, not performing clericall duties. This really is bullshit.

    Bugger any animal questions. The animal can live a night or two without food. This is human life in an emergency dept we are talking about.

  86. kae

    IT
    Alice sounds strangely familiar….

  87. blind freddy

    Judith
    Welcome to the august ranks of “grandparent”–great fun AND you can” hand them back”

  88. ar

    Congratulations Grandma Judith…

    Yep, they do ask those sort of questions.

    They’re just making sure their nurses are safe. I guess the questions are based on experience.

  89. Congratulations, Judith and Judith’s daughter.

  90. sdog

    She’s a serial fabulist, kae. They all start to sound similar after a while.

  91. boy on a bike

    Congratulations Judith. Hopefully the grandparental babysitting duties won’t slow you down too much.

    Alice – fascinating to see your comment on the clerical load nurses have these days. Family members have had 4 stays in hospital over the last decade (two kids and two emergencies) and on each occasion, one of us has practically had to live in the hospital to provide basic nursing services.

    One ward had 10 nurses for 20 patients – what I thought was a good ratio. However, 9 of them were tied up at a computer for most of their shift, so the patients never saw them.

  92. Anne

    Alice, is English your second language?

  93. sdog

    No, Anne, but sobriety might be.

  94. Anne

    LOL, there but for the grace of Dog…

  95. Rafe

    How come baby Joe needs a health visistor when he has got a grandmother?

  96. Gab

    Because the State knows better than Joe’s grandmother, Rafe. All bow down to the State.

  97. Anne

    It’s a nice example of The State creating a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist – at the taxpayer’s expense if course.

  98. Alice

    Anne

    even if english was my second language (witch itaint) my command is better than sdoggie’s one liners
    ….and woofs and barks.

  99. Alice

    Rafe and Gab

    Get real. A grandmother’s care no matter how loving (and not all grandmothers want to be that loving) is no substitute for trained medical and nursing care and all newborns deserve some proper attention and monitoring.

    Would you have us all whisked back to the dark ages when a lot more women and babies died in childbirth or didnt survive their first year of life?

    Ive heard of being anti state but really that is taking it a bit far. You correct the penpushers and their rules, so that better front line services are delivered. Unfortunately thats not the way the system is going. The public health system has been infected with an unhleathy dose of managerialism.

  100. Alice

    Walk around a public hopsital ward these days…
    what do you see – empty cups, overflowing rubbish bags, men and women sharing the same four bed wards (offensive to older women to have to share a toilet / bathroom with wee bottles and old men, not to mention snoring old men)

    Nurses with hair everywhere, not wearing gowns or gloves to do dressings, no one getting a back rub anymore because there is a “no touch” policy so forget washing an old ladies face and doing their hair or makeup to make them feel better, food trays left on bedside tables and no-one or not many helping people to eat, cant ask for a cuppa in between hours, no water jugs only tiddly plastic bottles, food not cooked fresh on premises but wheeled in stale from some outside processor and reheated (dont mention the food).

    Were hospitals doing it better 40 years ago when Matron and the Medical superintendent and their team were in charge?.

    Now we have an enourmous fat multi level department of health and the frontline services are in a sick state.

    You bet they were doing it better 40 years ago. So much for progress (or is that regress?)

  101. Token

    We get it Alice, the public hospitals you’ve attended are not meeting the standards you believe are the level required.

    We need to ensure our representatives resist the push from moronic lefties to make every hospital public.

  102. Anne

    For a drunk you’re awfully judgmental.

  103. Anne

    At least sdog is witty! I look forward to seeing his name.

    I groan seeing yours, knowing ’twill be a ten paragraph thesis on “vqsjge”!

  104. Token

    How come baby Joe needs a health visitors when he has got a grandmother?

    Both our kids arrived in public hospitals and as a result my wife spent time in a shared room (which we couldn’t get out of fast enough).

    In both cases the mothers were young, the fathers were very young and very foolish (at least they showed up and stayed), and though the grandparents were trying to help, there was a disconnect between the mother/grandmother which could not be bridged.

    The follow up visit probably was needed for the sake of the poor child in both cases. In both of those cases I saw the counselling and follow up health visits would overcome some serious social problems.

    That said, if the families had a real support structure through a good church group, etc the services wouldn’t have been required. Unfortunately, that is not where our society is.

  105. Alice

    Anne

    For someone I never even noticed before all I can suggest is that perhaps you ncould do with a drink.

  106. Alice

    Token

    - so if Granny cant deliver a baby and do follow checks on health, height, weight and progress etc we should all turn to the local priest to deliver and follow up eh?

    That sounds workable (completely not).
    Thats a ridiculous suggestion.

    Mothers already have mother’s groups as well or hadnt you noticed?

  107. .

    @noname
    God you’re thick.
    The productivity commission report says it all. Read my summary.
    The APHA’s analysis is spin.

    1 No, I’m more educated than you.

    2. The productivity commission report contradicts each of your claims.

    3. The APHA report condenses to a digestable format.

  108. Bob

    Alice, if you were a male rather than a ncould you would be accused (and rightly so) of constantly stepping on your doodle.

  109. Token

    …should all turn to the local priest to deliver and follow up eh?

    You really didn’t read what I wrote, did you!

  110. candy

    One or two visits from the baby nurse won’t cure any social problems, but perhaps they may identify an undernourished baby not feeding well,
    or one with severe nappy rash not treated properly by young disadvantaged mothers who have no advice from anywhere else.

    Things like that the nurses can help the baby.

  111. .

    But Dot – for those who cant afford public hopsitals what are you advocating – that they die in the street? You fail to clarify yourself fully.

    The APHA report actually shows that the private hosptials pick up the ball where the public hosptials drop it due to waiting times.

    Most people cannot afford an up front operation.

    That’s what health insurance and personal loans are for. If there are equity issues, then the Government ought to subsidise patients, not build hospitals it cannot manage.

  112. .

    Congrats Sinclair.

    Judith probably wants to know what really happened at the catallaxy 2012 Autumn box social…

    How come baby Joe needs a health visitors when he has got a grandmother?

    They don’t. Nor do they need medical care if they get home safe and sound.

  113. Token

    Things like that the nurses can help the baby.

    Plus can keep referring the mother to Tresillian and similar groups as reality of the size of the job hits home.

  114. Token

    The APHA report actually shows that the private hosptials pick up the ball where the public hosptials drop it due to waiting times.

    Interesting to note in the stats private run public hospitals perform better than pure public.

  115. Anne

    You miss a lot Alice…like…punctuation… and…um…oh, it was Judith who had a grandson not Sinclair! That’s the last peanut I’m throwing you.

    Dot, you are hysterical!

  116. boy on a bike

    Alice’s post at 9.22am was on the money as far as I am concerned. The standard of care in public hospitals would probably be a lot better if nurses were free to nurse and not forced to work as jumped up paper pushing clerical assistants.

  117. rob

    “Ever noticed that all the private medicos (especially the specialists) take a long break across Christmas?”

    Yeah. 10 days…after six months of 55 hour weeks. Sorry mate. I will try harder. After all there are SO many people wanting non-emergency care on New Year’s Eve…all the elective operating theatres are closed but perhaps I could sneak in and beg for some patients to come in for surgery

  118. Alice

    Dot why dont you get to the point

    “That’s what health insurance and personal loans are for. If there are equity issues, then the Government ought to subsidise patients, not build hospitals it cannot manage.”

    So for those who cant pay private health insurance or take out personal loans – then they should die on the street?

    No doubt about some of you “bugger you Im alright types.”
    The sense of antipathy toward ALL government services including medical, education has me gobsmacked. Nothing like sensible fiscal conservative management (something the libs used to be considered really good at).. No, here some lib outliers want to tear down the walls of government in entirety and shove Mums and newborns into the care of the church, charity or their grandmothers. Regressive totally. Bordering on insane.

    Some of you really have lost it Dot (Token) etc based on comments here

    As for Anne – who is she again? Remind me of a memorable post of hers? – one that doesnt seem like she drinks only lemon juice?

  119. Alice

    Oh hang – Dot is suggesting patient subsidies “for those that cant afford private health insurance or personal loans”

    Maybe Dot is suggesting that someone poor who has a heart attack should first make a phone call to you guessed it, a government department, to be issued a voucher so they can shop at the private hospital of their choice.

    Judging by the interrogation that Joe’s Mum went through…. Maybe the ambos should be carrying a ten page questionairre on a persons assets and liabilities and those vouchers in case they are called to collect (horror of horrors) – a poor person to take them to a private hospital Dot?

    Seriously I wonder sometimes..

  120. kae

    Who didn’t know about toxoplasmosis?

  121. .

    Maybe Dot is suggesting that someone poor who has a heart attack should first make a phone call to you guessed it, a government department, to be issued a voucher so they can shop at the private hospital of their choice.

    No I am not. Medicine bills in arrears.

    You’re suggesting they have to compete for services with people coming in for a headcold.

    You fucking twit.

  122. Regressive totally. Bordering on insane.

    No – just Glibertarianism. There’s a lot of it about. It’s like Communism in that most outgrow it by late adolescence. Sadly, many who post here suffer from severe developmental delay.

  123. .

    It’s like Communism in that most outgrow it by late adolescence. Sadly, many who post here suffer from severe developmental delay.

    Your argument was bullshit. The data flew in the face of you calling what we said unbacked assertions.

    Christ you’re stupid – you won’t shut up about the war but call everyone else “developmentally delayed”.

    Fuckwit.

    Grow up – most of society wasn’t around when conscription was law. Stop inflicting your melodrama on the rest of us.

  124. Alice

    Dot you are not making baby Joe’s arrival a happy occasion. The poor baby is announced into a storm of controversy over poor state of public health services when they cant even get a nurse to check on a newborn under three weeks and without an interrogtation first (despite promises etc) and your expletives arent really appropriate are they?

    (Ok I know I am more than capable of a swear word or two / three but I dont think as many as you yet).

  125. Alice

    Dot

    I saw a vagrant sitting at Central last week with a hat out and a sign “medical bills”.

    This is Australia. I dont want to see more of that.
    I suppose you will tell me he was a conman?
    Maybe – maybe not. He didnt look confortably off.

  126. .

    Shut up Alice.

    Your pretence of rationality is unwelcome and diabolically ugly.

  127. you won’t shut up about the war but call everyone else “developmentally delayed”.

    The last twenty mentions of “the war” have been made by others as a form of abuse. Check my posts – the pattern is exactly the same as your response. I post something that has nothing whatsoever to do with “the war”, but the response is always the same.
    Grow up – or pull your head in..

  128. Anne

    “Alice: Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?
    The Cheshire Cat: That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.
    Alice: I don’t much care where.
    The Cheshire Cat: Then it doesn’t much matter which way you go.
    Alice: …So long as I get somewhere.
    The Cheshire Cat: Oh, you’re sure to do that, if only you walk long enough.” 
    ― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

    Off you go then Alice, crazy cat lady!

  129. .

    I saw a vagrant sitting at Central last week with a hat out and a sign “medical bills”.

    It’s called panhandling.

    Dumbarse.

    He didnt look confortably off.

    You are a pigeon, Alice.

  130. .

    Piss off numbers. Everything you said was countermanded by FACTS. You then have the temerity to call everyone who disagrees with you developmentally challenged, tout “I didn’t mention the war” but use your service no. as your handle. EVERY time you post, you mention the war.

    You are literally too stupid to realise you are a troll.

  131. EVERY time you post, you mention the war.

    It’s in your head – my tag – your problem. Get over it.

  132. Chris

    No I am not. Medicine bills in arrears.

    In my experience in Australia private hospitals, specialists etc often require proof of private health insurance and a deposit or even sometimes the gap payment in advance – at least for elective surgery. You then may get some trailing fees for medication.

    I have very limited experience of emergency hospital treatment in the US, but proof of insurance or ability to pay was one of the first questions asked – way before actual treatment. In Australia it has been sometimes a request for a medicare card in some less urgent cases, or just immediate treatment in others.

  133. .

    You are changing the topic, strictly speaking, chris.

  134. Alice

    Dot you are a royal pain in the arse.

    I have to swear to have a decent conversation with you.

  135. Alice

    Anne – may I suggest you grow up and learn to like drinking something serious apart from lemon juice and as a pastime chucking peanuts??

    But having said that Im not averse to Lewis Carroll at all and its probably the first interesting post you have made. It could ne considered someonewhat similar to some of the meanderings here (which I rather like).

  136. .

    “Grow up, stop swearing, drink more”

    Possibly the most precious, juvenille thing ever said here.

    Piss off Alice. The adults are having a serious conversation and throwing in some expletives, and not hogging the liver transplant list.

  137. Alice

    Yeah yeah Dot whatever you say

    “the adults here??? are having a conversation??”

    How is that going Dot when you are particpating and telling all and sundry you disagree with

    “ta pissorff”??

    Pretty adult conversation all round Dot from you (as usual).

  138. The Private/Public Hospital System, and Winstons Most Excellent Adventure Traversing the Pitfalls – Part 2.

    Unwell, call Ambos. Driven to Cloncurry, and flown via RFDS to Townsville. Collect Frequent Flyer points. Have 1 Liter+ drained from pleural effusion, and 660ml from pericardial effusion. Start to improve. Plan for discharge last Friday. Cardiologist gets wind I’m in the Public System. Cardiologist has partial meltdown. Winston is transferred to Private system. Multiple scans later, it is noted that Winston has a septic gallbladder – Gastroenterologist is called in, and surgery scheduled for this week.
    The Public system was going to discharge me home – they needed beds. The Private system kept plugging away until they found out what was wrong and will correct it.
    Guess which one I have most faith in?

  139. Gab

    Lordy, Winston you are in the wars of late. Wish you well. Quickly. xx

  140. .

    Winston

    Every story my family elders have about the public system is pretty much the same.

    I feel sorry for the old ALP guys who kept on voting in the useless SOBs, making themselves poorer, throwing money at public health, and expect the system to get better with more money.

    It can’t. It is the nature of the beast.

    These poor old guys have been sold a pup. Now they are finding it very defective.

  141. candy

    Jeez Winston, you’ve been in the wars of late. Are they taking your gallbladder out?

  142. Anne

    Good luck with the surgery Winston. You’ll be out in time for eggnog!
    Are you having it in Townsville?

  143. kae

    Heavens, Winston. Hope that things are sorted out soon.

    Bloody public system.

  144. Thanks everyone – hopefully the bag of marbles will be removed this week.
    Yes Anne. The Mater in Townsville.
    Yes, it’s been a crap couple of months, but the weight loss program is working…

  145. Alice, you seem to be very unhappy with the state of the public system today (fair enough), yet you fly off the handle and froth at the mouth at the idea that healthcare should be anything but “free”.

    You want “free” socialised government medicine but you want it to be up to the same quality and standards as a patient-funded for-fee private system. Surely you, as a university lecturer in economics and commerce, can see the problem here?

  146. Jeez, Winston. What a run of it you’ve had lately. Take care, mate – you’ll be in my thoughts and prayers.

    As for your experience with the public system, that seems to be par for the course. They don’t actually outright kill people, but by neglecting to diagnose major underlying problems and sending people home with conditions that, if untreated, will probably end up killing them, they might as well be.

    I too would be dead by now had I not had the resources to buy my way out of the public health system. It really is a shambles.

  147. Just Another bloody Lawyer

    Marvelous news Ms Sloan. Perhaps you will allow Nanna?

    Yesterday I attended my first great niece’s birthday (or is it grand?). Holding a little one again is just magic.

  148. Also, Alice, you’ve been called out here on your self-touted medical expertise.

    You would appear to be a serial fabulist of the worst kind. Moron.

  149. Anne

    Sdog, she’s a lecturer in economics!??? I missed that. She’s also a nurse! These hotchpotch sentences would seem to indicate some thought flow disturbance.

    As an ex nurse trained properly I was horrified to the lack of attention being given to her deteriorating condition, in oreference to paper shuffling. At least I was trained properly and not handed the equivalent of a ten thousand word questionairre to ask new damissions when I was nursing.

  150. She’s just incredible, Anne. Literally.

  151. Anne

    She’s got ‘stalker’ written all over her!

  152. .

    Anne

    She is competing with phil/freddie/isher/jinmaro, who used to troll this place with the most ludicrous left wing memes.

    philomena reckoned she was a nurse, a poet, an agronomist, an economic consultant (with no formal training) and had the best sex life of anyone she’d ever met. She also reckoned nearly everyone in her family was interfered with by high ranking catholic clerics, and some of her ancestors were the results of these predatory unions.

    Alice reckons she was born in the Sydney area in about 1957 and moved to England in a work programme where she moved to England (straight out of high school as a minor) became a specialised nurse only with on the job training, worked at Hammersmith hospital, lived in London for four years, saw that Tony Abbot was a bad man because Irish girls would come to London for abortions (they didn’t go to Ulster because they also went to London to get a husband). Now this is where it gets complicated. She reckons she worked for Mayne Nickless in the 1980s as a blood courier etc. She has claimed she worked and studied full time in a Sydney area university before she had children. Her “son” is 21, apparently. She has stated she didn’t have kids or get married until she graduated. She has inferred that she has been working as an academic for at least 15 years and up to 20 years.

    She has also claimed she graduated in 1996. She also claims she “came 11th out of 3000 students in a graduating class of commerce students” from a Sydney area uni (in both versions of the story). She also reckons all of the microeconomics she teaches is bogus. She also doesn’t realise but her story has changed a little. Previously she wasn’t an economists but inferred she was an anthropologist who taught some economics on the side. She forgot to keep up with her lies.

    Basically she creates her career to suit her populist left wing opinions that there should be taxpayer funded abortion on demand and that free trade is bad. She also thinks fluoridation is a good idea because her family are a bunch of social rejects with poor hygiene.

    Basically if she remembers the Whitlam era at all in detail, her entire story becomes evermore full of bullshit.

  153. kae

    So, to reiterate Dot, Spot, Anne and others who pegged it:
    Who The Fuck Is Alice?
    Alice is a bullshit artist, and not a smart one.

  154. Alice

    Dot is an idiot and wouldnt know fact from fiction – why he is quite so obsessed with my life can only be jeaolousy from some poor undergrad phd student (and Ive asked Dot where ie which uni? I could check that) who hasnt earnt a dime yet.
    ??

    So what uni are you doing your “econ phd” at Dot?

    How long have you been doing it?

    How old are you?

    You have a lot of time on your hands to blog for someone doing their “econ phd”.

    As I recall you have recently made the comment that you have an “econ degree with first class honours”. A phd student would describe themselves as such wo why did you announce only two days ago you are an “econ degree with first class honours.”

    My bet is you are not any phd student.
    Have you earned a dime from your career yet Dot?? (which someone else is asupporting you to finish? Unlike myself who actually knows how to work?)

    You are a sad case boy. Why dont you lay down a bit of history of your own life for a change?

  155. Anne

    It puts the lotion on it’s skin….

  156. .

    Have you earned a dime from your career yet Dot?? (which someone else is asupporting you to finish? Unlike myself who actually knows how to work?

    Stop lying, Alice.

  157. Alice, this one really deserves some sort of explanation. An attempt, anyway.

    Seriously. I can’t believe you came back after getting pinged on that.

  158. Anne

    She seems a bit obsessed with you Dot.

    Psycho nurse!

  159. candy

    “She seems a bit obsessed with you Dot. ”

    Well, Dot is obviously an extremely educated fellow with a tremendous IQ, who seems to have a smouldering type of sex appeal – so perhaps Alice is just being playfully provocative ….

  160. Gab

    seems to have a smouldering type of sex appeal

    only enhanced by his pipe smoking habit.

  161. Anne

    She has no shame. Certainly not terribly smart. I think she has a personality disorder. Maybe worse. Perhaps we oughtn’t taunt her.

    Where’s Charles Krauthammer when you need him!

  162. Anne

    “She seems a bit obsessed with you Dot. ”

    Well, Dot ….educated …. a tremendous IQ,…sex appeal – so perhaps Alice is just being playfully provocative ….

    Could be that Candy….or she could be your garden variety BUNNY BOILER!!!!!!
    I’d be circumspect Dot, she’s trying to FIND you!

  163. Anne

    only enhanced by his pipe smoking…

    Ha ha, in that case Gab, Candy forgot to add ‘distinguished’!

  164. Alice

    Well sdog – I got Dots fur ruffled when all the little bugger can say is
    Shut up bitch”

    and he deserves it.

  165. Look, you disturbed fabulist. This one has nothing to do with Dot. You bragged about having been a specialised oncology nurse in a blood cancer unit. You couldn’t have been. You need to either start walking back some of the literally incredible stories you’ve tried to sell people here or have the grace to fuck off.

    What the hell is wrong with you?

Comments are closed.