Recalling last week’s call for the Coalition to get serious about school education, we now have clear evidence of the bungling and incompetence of our leaders in education over the last three or four decades. They delivered a cohort of students who were not taught grammar and related disciplines of spelling and punctuation. Now we have teachers who don’t know those things and so they need remedial training in those places where the authorities have decided to do better.
This is a state responsibility and the Commonwealth should get out of the way. Sack a few thousand more excess tax eaters in Canberra. Commonwealth participation only slows progress by bogging down in the six-monthly COAG meetings where any state that wants to drag the chain can demand another round of consultation and background papers.
This calls for a serious and sustained effort to get the destructive ideologues out of the key positions in the education departments and to confront the unions with the aid of concerned parents in the P&Cs. It will be a miracle if the Coalition governments can find the personnel and the fortitude to go the distance but it is a miracle that we desperately need.
In addition our esteemed PM was of the opinion that she would much rather be sitting in a classroom hearing children read than attending international meetings. Clearly, she wanted to ensure that kids weren’t learning. If they had any honour, Rudd and Gillard should tender their resignations on this issue alone. It’s time for a voucher system where parents can seek out quality teaching for their kids.
Keith
12 Dec 12 at 8:44 am
Ah! The wonderful voucher system. Refer me to a review of how it works in practice. In the meantime, read this.
From School Vouchers
An evaluation of their impact on education outcomes
Andrew Macintosh and Deb Wilkinson – The Australia Institute.
1735099
12 Dec 12 at 8:55 am
Getting rid of structured, phonics-style learning and replacing it with classroom-less ‘research’ where each child learns at his/her own pace in many schools was and is a dumb decision.
Kruddler
12 Dec 12 at 9:02 am
What my friends who are teachers tell me endlessly is that what teachers need are enough text books for the children in classes.
Token
12 Dec 12 at 9:07 am
Brilliant call Numbers! The Australia Institute is part of the problem, not the solution.
Australia’s leaading progressive think tank. LOL!
Rafe
12 Dec 12 at 9:12 am
That is complete and utter nonsense, numbers.
Vouchers are a great idea.
What is needed in education is to drop the 1950s style of teaching we have an adopt the Finnish system (basically world’s best practice, on outcomes) for charter schools initially as they are privatised/gifted to the local community and let competition flourish.
All bullshit.
.
12 Dec 12 at 9:17 am
Noname’s got an attack of the Glibs again.
Get help.
1735099
12 Dec 12 at 9:20 am
Glib? Those “researchers” lied. They just listed a heap of issues and lied about them. “Ooh I’m concerned”. This is the level of anti vaccination cranks.
Go fuck yourself.
Vouchers work, moron.
Oh no, what we need to do is …. employ more civil servants to disburse money. That will help kids to learn literacy, numeracy, science, art and humanities.
.
12 Dec 12 at 9:25 am
After starting my career as a primary school teacher I now work with the students who reflect the poor quality of our education system. The rot began in the mid-seventies and is now so entrenched that tertiary institutions all over the country have had to establish academic skills units to give the students the basics of what they need to complete their coursework. It’s a sorry state of affairs when international students have grammatically better written and spoken English than the locals.
I matriculated in the late 6o’s. I could spell, write well constructed essays, understood how to argue a position and find flaws in the arguments of others, could summarise and knew how to research, footnote and attribute sources and write an annotated bibliography. I’ve been asked in 2013 to teach all that and more to first, second and third year students because almost all of them have reached this level of education without developing any of the above. I am both gobsmacked and furious on their behalf.
In a committee meeting recently a professor at a regional university said we were wrong to ask our first year students to do a literature review as it would freak them out and put them off the subject. Bollocks!
In another battle, the teacher training faculty had to fight tooth and nail to make third year students re-sit and pass a numeracy test which 60% failed in second year. It’s not about class sizes or how much we pay teachers. Set standards and teach the basics. And start setting even higher standards for potential teachers.
Megan
12 Dec 12 at 9:27 am
Rafe-Australia gets rolled by the same UNESCO policies that I wrote about here. http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/values-and-vocational-creating-citizen-drones-via-education-worldwide/
I am citing a Global UNESCO document from 1989 that also affected Australian education. Moreover the new economics foundation economic vision is influencing both global economic development to fit with The Great Transition and global ed policy to fit with economies redesigned and planned around Green Growth and low carbon energy. Basically CAGW is a big excuse to control the economy and natural resources. Not to mention use education, K-12 and higher ed, to change values, attitudes, and beliefs to impact adult behavior and what merits political action.
I know Australia had fully embraced Transformational Outcomes Education by name by the early 90s. The Core Skills document Gillard put out for K-12 has very little student knowledge in it.
I have a lot of documents on Australian education. The really key year in rejecting the transmission of knowledge template was about 2001 when Australia adopted the ATLAS Project from the US-Assessing Teaching and Learning for All Students.
Robin
12 Dec 12 at 9:38 am
I have just completed Year 12 and probably have a better understanding of the problems in the system than most ‘academics’. The problems with the education system in Australia are the lazy culture within the classrooms, the poor attitude of students towards school and a poor curriculum.
The lazy culture starts with the parents. The parents do not remotely push their kids to strive to achieve their potential and do not set a culture at home that promotes learning, instead for video games. The culture inside the classrooms is the same as the home. A learning culture is simply non-existent. Students, even at Year 12, simply are distracted and this negatively effects other students who want to learn, therefore this is a detriment to the kids who want to learn. Might I add, that I went to a private school for both my primary and secondary education so this is not just a public school system problem This leads to my second point.
The students have a poor attitude to learning. Many year 12 students simply say that they want to receive good marks at the end of the year but simply do not try. That is largely due to the students’ attitudes towards learning. Many simply do not care and misbehave in class. There are only a handful of students who really have the ‘drive’ to achieve, unless you are in a top private school. This is an intrinsic problem, a parental problem and a teacher problem.
The curriculum does not focus on the fundamentals as much anymore. It somewhat does focus on the fundamentals during the early years but completely forgets it in later years. I was amazed to see this year, in Year 12, of how many students did not understand basic sentence structure, did not understand how to use contractions, did not understand how to use an apostrophe amongst many other issues. The English curriculum is also flawed because it focuses too much on creative ‘bs’ and not on the fundamentals that students require in the future.
Andrew
12 Dec 12 at 9:48 am
decrease equality of opportunity and reduce social cohesion. Voucher schemes are also likely to be expensive and lead
to a widening of the resource gap between both government and non-government schools, and between wealthy and poor private schools.
So, in short, even the Australia Institute has analysed vouchers and found they will increase educational opportunity and standards, allowing everybody to achieve their best. Naturally, they’re horrified.
John Mc
12 Dec 12 at 9:49 am
The parents do not remotely push their kids to strive to achieve their potential and do not set a culture at home that promotes learning
Don’t jump to conclusions, Andrew. The Australia Institute has released a paper that shows this kind of home environment will decrease equality of opportunity and reduce social cohesion.
John Mc
12 Dec 12 at 9:52 am
Yes John Mc.
Numbers called me glib but fled like a Frenchman when I asked for evidence.
.
12 Dec 12 at 9:53 am
From Ben Jensen of the Grattan Institute:
I taught a class in 1972-76 in a disadvantaged area of inner Melbourne with few children with English as their first language. There were 36 in the class across 3 grade levels (grades 4, 5 and 6). As an example, several children that started in the group as fourth graders were teaching themselves Year 9 mathematics by the time they reached grade 6. We did that without any specialists and I worked my butt off making sure my content knowledge was way ahead of theirs.
I recently had to move my entire library so we could paint the shelves. When I looked at the maths and English texts I used from that time, I knew with certainty that the current crop of tertiary students I work with would not be able to cope with them. The font is too small and the amount of text on the page is too dense for them to persist past page one.
Megan
12 Dec 12 at 9:59 am
Not if you believe social justice trumps literacy and numeracy.
I know a year ten maths teacher who was “counselled” for offering to give up 2 lunch breaks a week to provide additional help for any of his students who thought they needed it.
It would’ve disadvantaged those students who needed, but didn’t seek further assistance.
Any improvement in class averages might reflect poorly on other teachers.
lotocoti
12 Dec 12 at 10:01 am
You and I are in furious agreement, Andrew!
Megan
12 Dec 12 at 10:03 am
Rubbish! Those ‘academics’ should actually come into a classroom for once and experience the ‘real world’. Logically, do you really believe that a more disciplined environment at home, opposed to a lazy environment, is better at home? I am not saying that the students should have to focus on school 24/7 but more focus would improve the system. In fact, not creating a disciplined environment decreases equality of opportunity due to the fact that students are not giving themselves the best chance to get into the course they want and as a result the job they want.
Andrew
12 Dec 12 at 10:04 am
Andrew, that was sarcasm. Read my comment directly above that one.
John Mc
12 Dec 12 at 10:06 am
The Numerical Numpty should have fled. The state where he apparently was a school principal and where he continues to “educationally consult” was one of the worst performers. There was no way known he’d grow a backbone and take any responsibility for contributing to those outcomes.
Megan
12 Dec 12 at 10:06 am
Sorry, John Mc. I didn’t read that comment. Often sarcasm flies straight in one ear and out the other when I am debating an issue.
Andrew
12 Dec 12 at 10:13 am
Does anyone have any information on how many public school teachers are terminated for inefficiency, or fail to complete their probation, annually or over, say, a five year period for any Australian jurisdiction?
I understand that most jurisdictions have legislation and procedures that enable inefficient teachers to be sacked, but I can’t readily find any actual information on how often, if at all, it actually happens.
I’m mindful, however that the public sector generally is reluctant to take action against underperformers, not through any sense of compassion but because there is no pressure to do so (it’s only taxpayers’ money). I’d be surprised if the education arm of the public sector was much different.
Des Deskperson
12 Dec 12 at 10:16 am
Another problem is the Australian Education Union. Many of their campaigns for ‘duds’ like Gonski are not very progressive like they seem to state, but in reality is rather regressive.
Andrew
12 Dec 12 at 10:21 am
Does anyone have any information on how many public school teachers are terminated for inefficiency, or fail to complete their probation, annually or over, say, a five year period for any Australian jurisdiction?
This issue was solved through negotiations with the Education Union. Teachers are no longer ‘terminated’ in the traditional sense, that’s an old fashioned way of doing things that only continues in dinosaurs that refuse to modernise, e.g. the private sector. Teachers who are “competence challenged” are now promoted out of the position in order to enhance their capabilities elsewhere. Numbers could probably private some first-hand advice if you want more details.
John Mc
12 Dec 12 at 10:30 am
Says it all. Ignore the ones who want help and favour the lazy.
Come back Numbers, Sinc is leading on comments!
Dang, I put multiple comments on his thread.
Rafe
12 Dec 12 at 10:47 am
Poor old Lurch, out there apologising for yet another Prime Minister’s failures. At least they haven’t killed anyone this time, unlike the Pink Batts fiasco.
You have to set the bar pretty low for the KRudd-Gillard governments.
H B Bear
12 Dec 12 at 11:13 am
Poor old Lurch
The walking cadaver?!! Did you see him run and pass a football at some school opening or something he was at yesterday or the day before? It looked like something out of a B-grade comedy movie where the politician has died at an inconvenient time and his staff have got the cadaver and and strung it up on fishing line so he could be present at the event!
John Mc
12 Dec 12 at 11:22 am
Having done the rounds of a few schools lately in preparation for my daughter starting next year I think the “phonics is gone” meme is a bit of furphy. They all said they use phonics when teaching children to learn to read. But they also use whole of language techniques because some children learn better with the former and others with the latter – which if true would not be surprising to me.
Having started primary school in the late 70s I’m a victim of the no-grammar period. I learnt more about English grammar in my French classes than I did in the English ones.
It would be interesting to compare that to private schools as well. I went to one of those “elite private schools” and whilst by all reports the teacher quality was higher than the public schools the only time I know of teachers being sacked was because of abuse (an older teacher who failed to change with the times when it came to what was allowed wrt physical discipline). There were certainly a few teachers around who were crap at their primary academic teaching roles but were kept on because they were good sports coaches (*sigh*).
I’m all for a voucher system as long as those from disadvantaged backgrounds, or who have disabilities etc get larger than standard vouchers.
There is certainly something to be said for having a critical mass of academically inclined students. When I did year 12 the vast majority of students were aiming to go to university. Academically selective public schools are a good thing for similar reasons.
I think the schools historically have often underestimated the capability of the smarter students. For example when I was in year 5 during the maths lessons the teacher let the top 4-5 maths students in the class leave the room with a year 10 textbook and just teach themselves. And it actually worked quite well. Its probably one example of why the modern strategy of letting children work at their own pace is better than the old fashioned very formalised classroom setting where the teacher stands out the front and everyone does the same work at the same time. The latter gets very boring for the capable students.
It’s a state responsibility. But its also pretty clear that the states having been failing.
Chris
12 Dec 12 at 11:26 am
Warehousing older teenagers who don’t want to be there by raising the leaving age doesn’t help either. It creates discipline problems and dumbs down the content.
When I was supervising graduate trainees in the APS, who were supposed to be the best and the brightest, I was amazed to find that people with first class honours in the humanities were unable to spell or to write a grammatical sentence. I actually used to run little grammar tutorials with some of them to teach the basics.
It wasn’t their fault – they were smart and eager, but no-one ever bothered to teach them or correct them throughout nearly two decades of schooling.
johanna
12 Dec 12 at 11:45 am
These people are supposedly on the fast track to become senior management PS. After their graduate stint, they make a beeline for the policy departments to enhance their career prospects. Now I understand why most policies are unintelligible these days.
Keith
12 Dec 12 at 12:06 pm
What a can of worms is this.
Megan, yes yes yes. I had plenty of experience with of graduate research assistants who can barely hold a pen to write joined up words, and regard apostrophes and random capitals as wallpaper. But I am an apostrophe nazi.
Andrew, you are remarkably literate and coherent for somebody who has ‘just completed year 12′. I hate to say this, but you could be used to demonstrate that the system is working.
Jannie
12 Dec 12 at 12:21 pm
There are still good teachers in the system, there are good students and there are parents who do the right thing as well. As someone said of a notoriously corrupt police force, “there are some good apples in every barrel”.
Poor Old Rafe
12 Dec 12 at 12:51 pm
True, but on the balance of probabilities all three of these things never come together sufficiently to achieve critical mass if you just go with the flow and accept what your told.
John Mc
12 Dec 12 at 12:53 pm
Zing.
Token
12 Dec 12 at 1:05 pm
‘When I was supervising graduate trainees in the APS, who were supposed to be the best and the brightest’
Johanna, while I agree with your overall point, I’m not sure that APS grads are necessarily the best and the brightest.
APS graduate intake tends to be skewed toward grads from the ANU and the University of Canberra. This is a reflection of geography – most grads are recruited to agency central offices in Canberra – and of the fact that the APS is now, to some extent at least, an hereditary caste.
The 2012 ATAR cutoffs for most humanities courses at ANU were in the low eighties. The cutoff for almost all courses at UC was around 65, so the APS gets a lot of mediocrities and a few downright dullards.
Des Deskperson
12 Dec 12 at 1:05 pm
True on the good ones but the last OECD report I read on Australian from about 2007 was on how to force the reluctant principals to give up pushing the transmission of knowledge. Just wellbeing and basic skills.
The private schools in Australia have been quite infiltrated because of the presence of the vouchers. At one point I linked to an August conference.
On phonics, there is very little but the teachers do not want to admit it. Marie Clay of New Zealand has caused great lietracvy damage all over the world but she has been very influential in Australia. The argument over reading briefly is that an abstract mind to some degree that can play out mental scenarios and weigh possibilities is close to an inevitable consequence of learning the phonetic symbol system we call reading. So if you are a Statist Schemer or wish to create a career enabling them, you do not want to teach phonetic reading.
Not only do you limit ability to conceptualize, you limit the access to info at the source. No need to censor if no one is likely to bother.
And that succinctly is the impetus behind both the reading and the math wars. Symbol systems disconnected to physical reality foster an independent mind.
Robin
12 Dec 12 at 1:10 pm
Great post Robin.
John Mc
12 Dec 12 at 1:16 pm
Neck and neck with Sinc. Come on fellas, we can do it!
Poor Old Rafe
12 Dec 12 at 1:23 pm
Des, you may be right in the overall sense, but I was working in a policy area in PM&C, and believe me, these kids were the cream of the crop. They were very bright and very diligent, came from all over the country, but had simply never been formally taught grammar and spelling.
johanna
12 Dec 12 at 1:56 pm
Thanks for your kind words, Jannie. I will be receiving my marks next Monday. The system worked for me because I put my education as my number 1 priority, had a hard working attitude and actually thought for myself. Unfortunately, many students do not have this attitude. I think personal responsibility in all aspects of life is something that leads to success, not just relying on others to spoon feed you information. This ‘spoon feeding’ attitude leads to gullible leftists within our education system as students seem to believe whatever their teacher tells them to do.
Andrew
12 Dec 12 at 2:05 pm
Had exactly the same experience when I was running graduate programs in the corporate space. It’s not that they are dumb but because they have not been properly taught.
IMHO, the whole language approach is flawed because it attempts to build a pyramid on its point. Reading, first and foremost, is a decoding activity and without putting together the building blocks of phonics there is no foundation on which to build.
Megan
12 Dec 12 at 3:16 pm
There are some good apples in every barrel. That’s Good Rafe, it makes evolution possible.
Jannie
12 Dec 12 at 3:29 pm
The dirty little secret is that high schools are not really warehousing teenagers who don’t want to be there. When the new school leaving restrictions were introduced, no real effort was made to ensure that those who were going to leave at the end of year 10 actually turned up for years 11 and 12.
For instance – no increase in truancy officers.
I asked our Principal at a P&C meeting if the teachers were having discipline problems with those forced to stay.
They laughed, and said, “No – because none of them showed up after the first day of year 11, and no one is looking for them”. The teachers, facing years of having to cope with angry little sh*ts, breathed a sigh of relief and got on with teaching those that want to be there.
If they want to hide it, they get the kids to turn up and sign in, and then they don’t give a bugger if they shoot through – there are no further checks during the day to ensure the kids are actually still on the grounds.
boy on a bike
12 Dec 12 at 3:43 pm
boy, I think it varies from place to place.
Here in the Democratic People’s Republic of the ACT, my friends who are parents of high schoolers, or teachers, tell me that there are enough unwilling pupils in the senior years to pose significant problems in class. It only takes a few clowns or thugs to muck up the lesson for everyone else.
johanna
12 Dec 12 at 4:08 pm
‘I was working in a policy area in PM&C’
Good point. Treasury and DFAT would attract similar levels of grads. Line agencies, on the other hand, tend to get a mixed bag at best and some are finding that staff recruited through ordinary entry level selection are smarter, more diligent and in some cases better qualified that those attracted, selected and trained through expensive graduate recruitment programs.
Des Deskperson
12 Dec 12 at 6:11 pm
Megan says
“Reading, first and foremost, is a decoding activity and without putting together the building blocks of phonics there is no foundation on which to build.”
Megan that is at the heart of the matter of poor grammar that appears in undergrad uni students.
Not enough learning to spell properly (ha you all may say given my shocking spelling in ere.. but I dont have a spelling problem – I have an eye hand co-ordination problem with a keyboard and fast two finger typing and simply impatience).
Also not enough emphasis on punctuation in schools. The number of undergrads who write and write and write and end up with a garbled paragraph punctuated with dashes or “ands” instead of full stops or commas is quite astonishing.
The roots of this problem lies in the “whole language” approach to learning to spell c70s – oh so popular when it was decided that children were being “insulted” or “taught to be little parrots” for reciting from a list of phonetic words (with pictures) eg
cat
mat
sat
rat
bat
hat
As they should be still be doing.
The “whole language approach to spelling” gave me the horors when my son was in kindy and he was being given sheets of paper showing pictures of a beach, sand, umbrellas, balls, a sun, a towel etc
then a list of these unrelated words and told to write them in the boxes next to the pictures.
Enough for me tio run to the headmaster and say “this isnt good enough”. I was told way back then “I agree with you but there are still some materials like that being recycled and still in use but we plan to move back to phonetics.” They didnt. It did not change.
What a ridiculous way to go about building an understanding of english words. Yes, as someone said above they need to know the sounds first, be able to identify the sounds of syllables etc. They need the building blocks not this haphazard whole languange approach.
It is utter garbage and some countries have chucked it out.
Alice
12 Dec 12 at 7:18 pm
Some of us are out earning a living (in schools by the way).
There is no proven connection between the way schools are funded and educational outcomes.
This was proved when the Coalition in Queensland introduced the “Leading Schools” programme in 1996-97.
1735099
12 Dec 12 at 7:56 pm
Before you tried to link the funding model with poorer outcomes.
Give it up you ratbag.
.
12 Dec 12 at 8:25 pm
What’s that stink?
Noname’s here…….
1735099
12 Dec 12 at 8:28 pm
.
12 Dec 12 at 9:53 am
1735099
12 Dec 12 at 8:55 am
1735099
12 Dec 12 at 7:56 pm
So basically numbers has admitted The Australia Institute’s study is bullshit and fear mongering.
.
12 Dec 12 at 8:36 pm
@Noname
Who can’t tell the difference between a risk and a finding.
There’s that stink again……
1735099
12 Dec 12 at 8:42 pm
That would still mean the study by TAI is bullshit.
Fuckhead.
.
12 Dec 12 at 8:45 pm
@Noname
You made the glib statement that vouchers were the solution. The AI study is not supportive of that, nor is any of the available research. You make a statement – you need to back it up.
If you lack the cojones to do that, crawl back under your log.
1735099
12 Dec 12 at 8:51 pm
You quoted two studies, one by a left leaning Government which says “nada” and a left wing think tank with no empirical substance.
Bullshit.
Just shut up you craven bloody thief.
http://theconversation.edu.au/us-elections-do-school-vouchers-work-9927
Glenn Altschuler is the Vice President for University Relations, Dean of the School of Continuing Education and Summer Sessions, and The Thomas and Dorothy Litwin Professor of American Studies at Cornell University.
Vouchers are also more responsive to student needs, as is private education:
http://cepa.stanford.edu/content/how-do-vouchers-work-evidence-colombia
How do vouchers work? Evidence from Colombia
Author/s:
Eric P. Bettinger, Michael Kremer, Juan Saavedra
Year of Publication:
2010
Publication:
Economic Journal
Abstract:
.
12 Dec 12 at 9:01 pm
The Bettinger, Kremer and Saavedra study doesn’t make a finding based on any measurable data. It puts a hypothesis, just as you do.
In the first study, the vague statement “little or no overall impact” is telling.
The apparent improvement for African-American kids is a product of access, not enhancement.
Vouchers had a following in the 1990s in the US, but didn’t move beyond the point of being a passing fashion. Charter schools are now the flavour of the month, but again the evidence is illusory.
What makes a difference to results is the enthusiasm,energy and persistence of the individual teacher. A supportive and inspiring principal (leader – not manager) is critical.
1735099
12 Dec 12 at 9:25 pm
Really?
Evidence from Colombia
So they made it up did they?
You are a self aggrandising liar. You ask for evidence and cast judgment on empirical studies prematurely.
.
12 Dec 12 at 9:32 pm
Here is a presentation of empirical evidence antecedant to the Bettinger, Krema and Saaverda paper.
http://www.powershow.com/view/128b3-OTNkY/How_do_Vouchers_Work_Evidence_from_Colombia_powerpoint_ppt_presentation
Slides 20-29 are of a model, data issues and empirical evidence.
In other words, you’re full of shit, numbers.
Yet you have the temerity to tell others “to crawl back down their holes” for “being glib”.
Christ you’re a dishonest shitbag.
Just fuck off you arseclown.
.
12 Dec 12 at 9:40 pm
”
What’s that stink?
Noname’s here…….
ROFL
Alice
12 Dec 12 at 10:15 pm
You’re a silly old lady Alice with two fake careers.
.
12 Dec 12 at 10:18 pm
Fuck off, catfish. Pack up your fake backstory and peddle it elsewhere.
sdog
12 Dec 12 at 10:21 pm
ha ha no name…..here you are again swearing (as usual) at someone.
Is there anyone you like here?
Only two real careers? (more than that Dot – I have also bought and sold real estate in my spare time)
Some of us know how to run fast to and at work unlike fake econ phd students.
Anyway get back to abusing 1735099 for your entertainment tonight. Its my bedtime.
Alice
12 Dec 12 at 10:27 pm
Oh pardon me but here is sdoggie who has bounded into the attack in defence of the pack mate no name.
Sdog – maybe its you responsible for the stink. Did you leave a dog dropping in here?
Alice
12 Dec 12 at 10:29 pm
It sure is. If you expect us to believe you were a nurse when you don’t know what the blood brain barrier is, I’m sure you need plenty of rest to build up your property portfolio – on Farmville.
.
12 Dec 12 at 10:29 pm
Well beats switching from honours undergrad econ student to econ phd from day to day no name.
Or switching from working to not working but being satisfied with little money while you complete the “phd”
You are the fake around here.
Alice
12 Dec 12 at 10:33 pm
Its you who has the problem with people who have had multiple careers Dot, not anyone else and thats because you arent even old enbough to have had one yet.
Alice
12 Dec 12 at 10:35 pm
Anyway – speaking of multiple careers you are keeping me from my book rich kids.
So good night Dot (and could someone clean up the mess sdog left behind?)
Alice
12 Dec 12 at 10:36 pm
Oh, is that all?
Nato
12 Dec 12 at 10:36 pm
You made a very specific claim about your background, and you just happened to do it on a blog where someone reading had the background to be able to demolish that claim. You were not a specialist nurse in a blood cancer unit. You are a catfish who is becoming ever more noisome as you go off.
sdog
12 Dec 12 at 10:36 pm
What does that even mean?
sdog
12 Dec 12 at 10:42 pm
Great work team, with Alice and Numbers back we will kill Sinc! Eat our dust Birthday Boy!
Numbers, it is not the source of funding that matters as much as the capacity of the principal to actually run the school effectively. That is a worldwide research finding.
On the topic of retention rates, someone in NSW is excited that our retention rate has improved this year, big deal. As some have pointed out, many of the long stayers are a waste of space or worse. Keeps them off the dole but. Imagine the unemployment rate if they were counted along with bogus disability cases.
Poor Old Rafe
12 Dec 12 at 11:04 pm
Death threat.
Gab
12 Dec 12 at 11:09 pm
@Poor Old Rafe
The disconnect between funding souce and results (I avoid the term “outcomes”) is precisely my point. The knee-jerk responses from many posting here trying to politicize the issue is part of the problem.
After 40 years in school education (20 of them as a principal) I learned long ago that when any issue relating to education is gazumped by politicians, all reason and common sense is terminated.
Generally, schools prosper despite, rather than because of, political initiatives.
1735099
13 Dec 12 at 8:11 am
Yes possibly because the political initiatives in our lifetime have been generally driven by leftwing social engineers. An exception was the science labs program under Menzies in the 1960s, maybe I am biased because our school was the second cab off the rank:)
Do you have an informed view of the Metherill changes in NSW? Possibly another exception.
Rafe
13 Dec 12 at 8:20 am
Which is what vouchers and charter schools would do, if the Government kept away from the curriculum.
Which you don’t support despite evidence you demanded, contrary to you holding a duplicitous view on the matter and and your further duplicity regarding evidence to back up assertions.
You really are a confused, tribalist muppet, numbers.
.
13 Dec 12 at 8:38 am
No – they would make no bloody difference. You continue to miss the point. You really should get out more.
1735099
13 Dec 12 at 10:07 am
…numbers says they “make no bloody difference”.
Just shut up you old fool.
.
13 Dec 12 at 10:10 am
It’s unfair for urban underclass blacks to be able to escape their failing local schools and get a chance at launching themselves into a brighter, more hopeful future. Because, “social justice.”
sdog
13 Dec 12 at 10:16 am
Bronco Bama likes school choice. That’s why he chose to remove his kids first from Chicago’s failed school system and then from DC’s. If other black parents would like the same option but don’t have the big bucks to do so, then their children deserve the substandard educations they’ve just been doomed to.
sdog
13 Dec 12 at 10:19 am
Also, if anyone here has not yet seen the doco “Waiting for Superman” (from the director of “An Inconvenient Truth”, but don’t let that put you off) put that in your Netflix queue for the weekend. Seriously.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/
http://www.amazon.com/Waiting-Superman-Geoffrey-Canada/dp/B003Q6D28C
sdog
13 Dec 12 at 10:24 am
No. I am more familiar with the Queensland scene. (44 years in schools across all sectors, locations as varied as Mt Isa, Brisbane, Longreach, Townsville and Roma, and jobs as varied as teacher, principal, regional manager, and these days, part time consultant).
A reading of Metherill’s changes indicates to me that they conform generally to a pattern at the time where substantial recognition was given to inclusion, parental input, and catering for diversity.
A quick perusal of the objects of the act makes that clear –
It is not a political statement, and all the more valuable because of that.
To me, the amusing aspect of this discussion is the quite balmy hindsight view of many on the Right that there was some vast conspiracy to steer school education to the Left during this stage of our history.
These reforms were essentially a reflection of changing social expectations of schooling. They were imposed on education bureaucracies, not driven by them.
1735099
13 Dec 12 at 10:26 am
Wow, are you saying there may be a way to allow schools to get funding in a way that is based upon the satisfaction of the true customers (parents/children) instead of the whims and political desires of the dominant stakeholders (government/ever sprawling education bureaucracy)?
Someone who was a teacher for 40 years and a principle for 20 years would instantly see how that would assist when developing operating & capital budgets and allocating resources.
Token
13 Dec 12 at 10:29 am
I was a principal with principles.
The issue of curriculum is a total red herring. Curriculum content (the what) is far less important in the twenty first century, than curriculum style (the how).
Put simply, primary education should be about skill acquisition and secondary education about skill application.
1735099
13 Dec 12 at 10:36 am
Noname. It is apparent that you haven’t read the paper you cited, or if you have, you haven’t understood it.
Here is the conclusion in full -
They compared results for students who had won vouchers in a lottery with those who hadn’t. They were not comparing school systems where vouchers were used with school systems where conventional funding sources applied.
Until you can show us such a comparison you’re talking through your arse (again or still).
1735099
13 Dec 12 at 10:45 am
So vouchers work even in the public system. You say the funding source doesn’t matter.
You really are a self aggrandising idiot. Keep shifting the goalposts, dickhead. Previously you asserted they did no empirical work. You lied, they have statistical modelling of the data.
You have some fucking gall demanding empirical evidence, not reading a paper and asserting it has no empirical evidence behind it and then not even admitting you were wrong.
You ignore their abstract. The private sector is more responsive.
You’re just a dishonest shitbag.
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13 Dec 12 at 10:53 am
@10.26
The Metherill reforms were passionately and bitterly opposed by the teachers union, to the point of strike action, with a flying squad of activists on duty to disrupt any public appearance by the minister. I was on a P&C at the time and had a front row seat at the drama.
Rafe
13 Dec 12 at 10:54 am
“the doco “Waiting for Superman””
The ‘failure factories’ were scary.
Jarrah
13 Dec 12 at 11:10 am
So? What’s your point?
Most of this kind of industrial action is white noise. I’ve been a member of the QTU since 1968. I don’t necessarily agree with everything the union does – they treated me very shabbily when I returned from Vietnam in 1971 and wasn’t paid because the Department had lost my documents. When I told them I was an ex-soldier I was told to get knotted.
Having said that, on the whole, they have treated me well for those 44 years and any teacher not a member has rocks in his/her head given the litigious nature of the work environment these days.
The influence of the Unions is another Rightwing meme that has little basis in reality. The QTU is an efficient supportive organisation that supports its members well. It has very little political clout.
1735099
13 Dec 12 at 11:12 am
When you’ve grown up a bit I’ll consider resonding to your posts.
Until then, like most attention seeking juveniles, you’re best ignored….
1735099
13 Dec 12 at 11:14 am
You’ve been hammered numbers, you dishonest shitbag, I don’t give two fucks about what you think of me.
“Attention seeking juveniles”
Yes, like people who use their service number as a handle to flog a book they wrote.
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13 Dec 12 at 12:06 pm