Open Forum: December 15, 2012

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1,231 Responses to Open Forum: December 15, 2012

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  1. DaveF

    We all know Krugman is a hack. I’ve always wanted to interview him on TV and patiently tease out “When should the US debt be paid back” and keep repeating it until he admits “Never.”

    Well we don’t have to wait.

    The first thing we need to ask is what a sustainable budget would look like. The answer is that in a growing economy, budgets don’t have to be balanced to be sustainable.

    Keynesian doctrine be damned. Full speed spending forever.

    Thanks Paul.

    Actually its probably worth a post of its own.

  2. Token

    …who has long been fond of drawing comparisons between Obama and Lincoln — compared Obama’s speech in the wake of the Tucson massacre to . . . what else? . . . the Gettysburg address.

    It is a pity that 3 years on, with all the evidence about Loughner from when he gave that speech 3 years ago, Obama shows has not learned anything.

    Seriously, Obama could do something about the attitude of black men toward their children, he is a hero to the black community, but he does not have the ticker to be the transformational leader on the issue.

  3. steve from brisbane

    What we are seeing here is the continuation of the paranoid attitude of the NRA (down under division) which throws up a whole smokescreen of reasons why it won’t countenance any better regulation of gun ownership, arguing alternatively that nothing will work, nothing is worth doing unless the results are total effectiveness, and mixing up issues no end (continually talking about career criminals and guns when the case in question raises legally purchased guns used by the mentally ill, eg).

    It’s all driven by paranoia that the US could, even if it wanted to, disarm the “law-abiding” populace generally; and that “armed militia” are somehow relevant today as thwarting government tyranny.

    CL and Mk50 glibly talk about “Leftism” as a mental illness.

    It’s the nutty Right that has the real issues with mental health in the US and here.

  4. John Mc

    I agree with the sentiment, but the problem is there are so many mass shootings that the window for discussion isn’t big enough for such a controversial policy topic that by its nature will take a long time to get through.

    One, not really true. 9,100 Americans are murdered each year with guns. 99% don’t get the profile this one does (for completely understandable reasons).

    Two, it’s the same with court cases. There will always be public opinion and media attention, but you have to work with it while still affording a fair and speedy trial. That’s completely not what’s happening with this issue. I suppose we couldn’t expect anything different, but it’s definitely not what’s happening.

  5. Jarrah

    “I think we’re doing all we can in Australia, realistically, to prevent motor vehicle accidents. Americans have not done all they can to prevent gun homicides.”

    Reminds me of this graphic.

  6. .

    ???

    I don’t need a cooling off period to buy a car.

  7. Token

    What we are seeing here is the continuation of the paranoid attitude of the NRA

    So you are saying Jared Loughner did not have serious mental health issues? The same for Colorado cinema killer?

    Are you blaming it all on the NRA?

    It is not the Left that’s having an issue with “not having a conversation” here.

    Steve, it is good you admitted you are on the Left, but like so many who are with you on the irrational side of politics, you don’t have the comprehension skills necessary for the coversation you say you desperate want.

  8. .

    We all know Krugman is a hack. I’ve always wanted to interview him on TV and patiently tease out “When should the US debt be paid back” and keep repeating it until he admits “Never.”

    Well we don’t have to wait.

    The first thing we need to ask is what a sustainable budget would look like. The answer is that in a growing economy, budgets don’t have to be balanced to be sustainable.

    Keynesian doctrine be damned. Full speed spending forever.

    Thanks Paul.

    Actually its probably worth a post of its own.

    This makes the Democrat criticism of Reagan spending too much look really, really shallow.

  9. John Mc

    What we are seeing here is the continuation of the paranoid attitude

    ShitFer, we’re not paranoid. It is a simple fact that following the ideas of people like you will lead us to hell in a hand basket. It would be like having the policies of the Greens governing the country. It would be totally idealistic and it does not work. The failed European states – Greece, the problems in the UK and France – are due to putting ideas from people like you into place. The US continues to have an economy three times the size of the next one and leads the world in the western model precisely because it rejects ideas like yours. When it fails to do that it will also just become another failed western state.

  10. Jarrah

    “One, not really true.”

    If a national discussion on guns takes just six months, that exceeds the average gap between mass shootings in the US (62 in the last 30 years). So, prima facie, it’s true.

  11. John Mc

    Reminds me of this graphic.

    Jarrah, that’s just the Swiss model. Works completely fine as well. It’s just a different approach.

  12. John Mc

    If a national discussion on guns takes just six months, that exceeds the average gap between mass shootings in the US (62 in the last 30 years). So, prima facie, it’s true.

    Prima facie, yes, but on analysis no. They don’t get this profile because they don’t all have school children being murdered in wealthy suburbs like most of us live in. The last one I can quote is Columbine and I’m sure most people are like me. I know there’s 9100 gun murders, but that’s a different type of less emotional knowledge.

  13. steve from brisbane

    Token, you might notice I have given up responding to you because your points are just too confoundingly scattergun, and stupid, to bother answering.

  14. steve from brisbane

    Shorter JohnMc: America should not look at tighter gun control because “it’s awesome”.

    Very convincing.

  15. John Mc

    And completely opposite to what someone like you would propose it should look like. That’s even more convincing.

  16. John Mc

    When do reckon Greece will start up its space program?

  17. Rudiau

    Facts That Don’t Fit the News Media’s Anti-Gun Narrative

    Clackamas Mall Shooter Was Confronted By Concealed Carrier (Oregon)

    Pinched from SDA.

  18. steve from brisbane

    Of course, no one should be surprised.

    The same large chunk of the Right that hates the idea of any additional gun control at all is also on board with the “climate change is a socialist con job” meme.

    As with this current shooting, the problem is that this line of paranoid thinking is not just stuffing up the lives of those who subscribe to it, it’s affecting other people.

  19. Infidel Tiger

    More guns are reducing the crime rate Steve.

    I know you like to abuse science, but please, this is a serious matter.

  20. Infidel Tiger

    It probably wouldn’t work there. But it’s the right thing to do.

    Wow. That is leftism explained perfectly.

  21. John Mc

    As with this current shooting, the problem is that this line of paranoid thinking is not just stuffing up the lives of those who subscribe to it, it’s affecting other people.

    It’s exactly the same here. I don’t want your crap ideas lowering my standard of living. It’s not like you don’t want to impose your ideas on other people. If anything, it’s my side that believes in leaving people alone to pursue their own happiness.

    I think part of the key is to have devolution of power, so people can choose where they live away from people they’re less likely to want to be near. If we were US citizens you’d live in California or New York, and I’d live in Texas or New Hampshire.

  22. .

    …and yes…the first one is fake.

  23. Token

    Token, you might notice I have given up responding to you because your points are just too confoundingly scattergun, and stupid, to bother answering.

    We know you are not that bright.

    Thanks for underlying the point you don’t have the intellect to do more than to regurgitate your comrades on the Left “emoting”.

  24. steve from brisbane

    What a dimwit.

    You can take that a collective statement.

  25. twostix

    Shorter JohnMc: America should not look at tighter gun control because “it’s awesome”.

    You’re so bizarrely ignorant steve. You argue the typical dur,dur aussie leftist fantasy that the US is some anarchic wild west where you can just decide one day to walk into a shop and come out with an M16 and bazooka.

    All US states and cities already have various degrees of gun restrictions. The shooter in this case was denied a gun under his states gun laws. The highest gun crime is in the states with the toughest gun laws.

    None of this enters into the mind of the nutjob leftist who we see doesn’t actually care about careful gun regulation. No it’s not the gun laws you lot care about rather it’s the desire for the central government to take control of them, that’s what the real driving force is here. You’ll cannot stand that there’s an area of power in the US that can’t be ruled by decree – that a significant power remains with the state governments and the people who decide on what level of regulation they are comfortable with. That’s the real “problem”.

    Finally in the reams of “the US must ban guns!111″ posts you don’t even acknowledge the fact that the right to own a gun is explicitly outlined in the US constitution and for the Federal Government to “overrule” that and not be struck down by this or future supreme courts or start a civil war would require an amendment.

    Which with half the states in republican hands just isn’t ever going to happen.

  26. dover_beach

    Token, you may have noticed that in Australia, the mentally ill have a much harder time killing large numbers of people with semi automatic rifles.

    Oh, yes, but it was damn easy for one to incinerate 15 souls on one occasion with nothing more than some accelerant and a match.

  27. twostix

    The same large chunk of the Right that hates the idea of any additional gun control at all is also on board with the “climate change is a socialist con job” meme.

    Every state in the US has gun control you weirdo nutjob.

  28. Tom

    The same large chunk of the Right that hates the idea of any additional gun control at all is also on board with the “climate change is a socialist con job” meme.

    The fact that extremist leftwing dogma parrots like Dogshit and the hamster roam sites like this will be remembered as one of the signature characteristics of the era when an extremist leftwing government brought all of our fringe fruitcakes into the open because the fruitcakes in Canberra gave them the feeling of an official imprimatur.

    It’d be funny if they weren’t ransacking the national treasury.

  29. Token

    If a national discussion on guns takes just six months, that exceeds the average gap between mass shootings in the US (62 in the last 30 years). So, prima facie, it’s true.

    If its so critical to have the discussion about guns, before the facts are settled, maybe its time to ahve the discussion about mental illness as well.

    Five-Point Action Plan for President Obama to Reduce Violence by the Mentally Ill

    President Obama said the federal government has to do something meaningful to prevent future shootings, like the recent massacre of 26 children and adults at a school in Newtown, Connecticut. Here is what the federal government can do to prevent violence related to mental illness:

    …If Obama is serious about wanting to do something, the steps above would be the best first step. True, the mental-health industry may throw a fit as they find themselves obligated to serve the most seriously ill, but it’s the right thing to do. Anything else could be deadly.

    Here is what states should do.

    You can see this is a dual strategy that targets the federal government & states.

    Thank goodness someone was paying attention to the issues raised by Fort Hood (why is that shooting “forgotten”), Arizona, Colorado, Michigan & now Conneticut.

  30. boy on a bike

    Seriously, is there anyone in the US that gives a sh*t as to what non-resident, non-voting, non-taxpaying Australians think about how they manage their affairs?

    The faux outpouring of grief in the Australian media is sickening – it’s putrid moral posturing with an eye on selling more fish wrappers.

  31. the case in question raises legally purchased guns used by the mentally ill

    Fuckwit. Mentally ill people cannot legally purchase guns.

    In the current case, the shooter tried to purchase weapons legally but was knocked back. So he stole them instead.

    So we’re dealing with an unlicensed mentally ill youth, with stolen guns, carrying them illegally (double – both because CT doesn’t give carry permits to under-21s and because they were stolen), illegally breaking into a school, illegally taking them into a designated gun-free zone, and illegally murdering people with them.

    You don’t react to tragedies caused by people like that by disarming law-abiding citizens like my baby sister, who has never broken a law in her life.

    This is why no one takes you seriously.

  32. twostix

    As with this current shooting, the problem is that this line of paranoid thinking is not just stuffing up the lives of those who subscribe to it, it’s affecting other people.

    The person who thinks that using electricty is going to end the world is calling other people “paranoid”.

    Deranged.

  33. John Mc

    Every state in the US has gun control you weirdo nutjob.

    Except New Hampshire – which has some, but pretty much none – and is statistically the safest US state for gun crime and overall homicide!

  34. dover_beach

    That’s a coincidence, John Mc.

  35. Huckleberry Chunkwot

    Hey SfB,
    you didn’t answer my question yesterday, what kind of rape is it that women fear least?

  36. John Mc

    That’s a coincidence, John Mc.

    I think that’s an oversimplification. The reason they don’t have gun laws is because they’ve never needed them. The reason they’ve never needed them is due to a number of other very critical factors they’ve always got right since the state was created………………..I’d love to discuss them but I’ve really got to stop blogging!!!

  37. Derp

    SfB is making sense. Increase my meds STAT.

    But seriously, given that bugger all of the posters here live in the USA and that we don’t have a Constitutional right to bear them… emotionally arguing the whole guns thing one way or the other is kinda silly. Especially when specific scenarios are floated or bigots start making hysterical generalisations (yeah, I’m looking at you there numbers).

    The whole thing is turning (mostly) into a fracas between two camps; those who roll their eyes at Americans and those who see guns conferring talismanic powers. In Australia, we just don’t have a dog in the guns fight. There are plenty of other relevant issues that are closer to home such as mental health.

  38. steve from brisbane

    Undeserving of a response, Chunkwart.

    By the way, I take it everyone here really appreciates the way guns are sold in the US as a way a bloke can affirm his “manhood”.

  39. dover_beach

    John Mc, I’m was just being mischievous.

  40. dover_beach

    sfb, since you never responded yesterday; do you think it appropriate that husbands and boyfriends are counted in the same category as the local green grocer or doorman in sexual assault/ rape stats, for example?

  41. steve from brisbane

    No time now, d-b. It’s a complicated issue.

  42. Gab

    Shorter SFB: “Me SFB, Me don’t understand”

  43. Gab

    what kind of rape is it that women fear least?

    Rape is rape but SFB – the self-appointed spokeswoman for women everywhere – thinks some rapes are worse than others. Ah, the lefty mindset is a wonder to behold.

  44. twostix

    SfB is making sense. Increase my meds STAT.

    Sure he is.

    The differing gun laws in 52 states in the USA are all the NRA’s doing and the US hasn’t been having a “conversation” about gun regulation for thirty years now.

    LOL

  45. DaveF

    Very interesting article Token. I wonder if our laws are similar?

    I’m not sure the school shooter would have been stopped by these laws, it would probably have taken a ‘complaint’ by his Mum to have action started under those criteria.

    SAMHSA is the epicenter of what is wrong with the American mental-health system. SAMHSA actively encourages states to engage in mission creep and send the most seriously ill to the end of the line. They provide massive funding to organizations that want to prevent mentally ill individuals from receiving treatment. They have nothing positive to show for their efforts in spite of a massive bureaucracy that meets and meets and meets and never accomplishes anything.

    Tell us how it is, mate! lol

  46. .

    In the current case, the shooter tried to purchase weapons legally but was knocked back. So he stole them instead.

    Every state in the US has gun control you weirdo nutjob.

    Except New Hampshire – which has some, but pretty much none – and is statistically the safest US state for gun crime and overall homicide!

    Why would someone even try to argue for gun control?

    It is just an exercise in demonising a special interest group that will be defensive.

  47. Tom

    Could Sinc put up a Cat poll like Blair’s to see if Dogshit is our Leftist Shemale of the Year?

  48. Viva

    His call for the shooting of anyone who supports the NRA includes Texas’ governor, both of its senators, all of its other statewide officials and most elected members of the state’s legislature. His public threat against so many elected officials could constitute a terroristic threat.

    This reflects the pervasive violent mindset that is the problem in the US. The gun issue is simply symptomatic of it.

    The guy reminds me of the man who visited the doctor saying there was a buzzing in his ears. The doctor gave him some medicine and he returned a week later.

    “So are you better now?” asks the doctor.

    “Yes thanks”, says the man. “The buzzing is a lot louder now!”

  49. Infidel Tiger

    Let’s examine the science:

    In the last 30 years the amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere has gone up an agreed shitload and yet the temperature hasn’t moved statistically.

    In the last 30 years the number of guns in the US has doubled and yet the murder rate has halved.

    The left are science deniers.

  50. twostix

    Why would someone even try to argue for gun control?

    At this stage it’s because they’re authoritarian statists who don’t like that state governments determine their own gun regulations in line with the wishes of their electorates. Instead they simply want Obama to take power by force – reject the wishes of 100 million people and decree guns “regulated” exactly in line with their rejected-at-the-ballot-box demands and in direct violation of the constitution.

    In doing so they self-fulfill the prophesy (while mocking it) that had the right to own a gun set as the second most important right in the US constitution in the first place.

    Isn’t that weird?

  51. dover_beach

    Viva, it is safer to go out at night in NYC than Melbourne or Sydney.

  52. Huckleberry Chunkwot

    Let’s examine the science:

    In the last 30 years the amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere has gone up an agreed shitload and yet the temperature hasn’t moved statistically.

    In the last 30 years the number of guns in the US has doubled and yet the murder rate has halved.

    The left are science deniers.

    I like the cut of your jib IT.

  53. steve from brisbane

    Of course you do, Chunkwart.

    You’re as stupid and ignorant as he is in recognising what’s happening in the world and causal relationships.

  54. steve from brisbane

    Gab’s making silly comments about me again.

    Maybe if I buy a semi automatic penis enhancer gun as sold by Bushmaster, she’ll think better of me.

  55. Infidel Tiger

    The US is a lot less violent a place than Australia.

    They certainly don’t have drunken lunatics glassing each other everywhere and outside of black neighbourhoods you’ve got more chance of dying from a bee sting than a gun shot.

    You should save up and take a holiday there, Viva. You’ll be amazed at the reality versus the media myth.

  56. Gab

    SFB, you’ve got nothing but abuse in your arsenal.
    —————–

    About time too:

    MAGISTRATE Pat O’Shane failed to act impartially and treated police prosecutors in a “discourteous, pre-emptory and high-handed” way, a Sydney hearing has been told.

    Ms O’Shane, 71, faced the conduct division of the NSW Judicial Commission on Tuesday in relation to complaints made against her by NSW Attorney-General Greg Smith and police Chief Superintendent Tony Trichter.

    Counsel assisting the commission, Jeremy Gormly SC, said the tribunal would hear evidence Ms O’Shane acted in a partial manner in four cases between 2007 and 2012.

    Ms O’Shane could be referred to NSW parliament for the consideration of her removal or to the chief magistrate, depending on the findings of the conduct division.

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/magistrate-oshane-not-impartial-hearing/story-e6frfku9-1226539626673#ixzz2FMmj0fE1

  57. boy on a bike

    Actually, the left are racist, ageist and sexist.

    Hundreds of black males are gunned down each month, and the left doesn’t give a bugger.

    A bunch of very young white females are gunned down, and they go bonkers.

  58. boy on a bike

    Can anyone tell me what sort of carbine this Israeli teacher is lugging around?

  59. steve from brisbane

    Gab, you’re very silly.

    You insert yourself into a thread with a gratuitous insult to me, then in response come back with “you only abuse when you debate”.

  60. Gab

    Go back over your comments today, SFB. Mostly they’re just abusive.

  61. .

    Just hurry up and remove her.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kanaan#White_City_Police_shooting:_22_December_1998

    On 29 November 1999 Magistrate Pat O’Shane discharged Kanaan from standing trial in relation to the White City shooting. Ms O’Shane called the two police officers “stupid, reckless and foolhardy” and said that “the circumstances in which constables Patrech and Fotopoulos became involved with…Kanaan and his cohorts…indicated police harassment of youth” and there was “not a shred of evidence which gives rise to any factual or reasonable cause on the part of these police to chase these young fellows on this particular night.” The Director of Public Prosecutions was not impressed and ordered that Kanaan stand trial on the basis of an ex-officio indictment

    Yeah…da yoof…a 24 year old triple murderer.

    More here

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/again-the-law-shoots-and-misses/2006/06/04/1149359604861.html

    But the consequences for her actions stand in stark contrast to the consequences for the two police officers she upbraided.

    Constable Patrech was shot and wounded by Kanaan and is still troubled by his injuries. Constable Fotopoulos was later driven off the force for no good reason, and driven almost to despair.

    And O’Shane? She continues to be treated by the legal establishment as the cat with 99 lives.

  62. twostix

    In the last 30 years the number of guns in the US has doubled and yet the murder rate has halved.

    There’s also more guns than ever in NSW – nearly a million registered to private citizens easily double that for the true number.

    The left genuinely think there’s no guns in Australia anymore which is yet another example of the fantasy world they create then argue within.

    “Gun laws work – just look at us in Australia! Perfect! No guns allowed here in Australia!”
    “There’s more guns than ever”.
    “OMG we need more gun laws!”

  63. The guy reminds me of the man who visited the doctor saying there was a buzzing in his ears. The doctor gave him some medicine and he returned a week later.

    “So are you better now?” asks the doctor.

    “Yes thanks”, says the man. “The buzzing is a lot louder now!”

    So do you troll with the moniker “Capricornia of Potts Point” at Blair’s, or were all Aussie anti-gun nuts sent a single set of retarded comments to post on various blogs?

  64. John Mc

    I noticed that as well. It’s a small (blogging) world.

  65. Huckleberry Chunkwot

    causal relationships.

    So Steve, tell me again what the causal relationship between CO2 and temperature is. Is that the one where there has been an exponential rise in one and no rise in the other?
    Fuckwit.

  66. H B Bear

    I often wondered who on Earth (other than Mr Anne Summers) would take anything written by that relic from the 70′s Mungo MacCallum seriously.

    Now I know.

  67. tbh

    I have to say that there is a lot of bullshit being written about the so-called culture of violence in the US right now, mostly from people who have never lived there. Well I have and I can tell you that I never felt the slightest bit unsafe in the major cities I lived in or visited.

    I spent three and a half years living in Houston where, horror of all horrors, concealed carry is legal! I am no NRA sympathiser, but neither am I a gun control nut. The overwhelming majority of people who own guns in the US are responsible and wouldn’t burst into a school and kill a bunch of people.

    I had some pre-conceived ideas about the US and guns before I went there, but let me tell you that when I left I didn’t have anywhere near the worries I did before. Overall, the country is very, very safe. Like any place, there are some neighbourhoods that you wouldn’t walk around in at night, but they exist in every place. Hell, I’d be more likely to venture out in the downtown area of most American cities than I would in Perth late at night.

    The very worst time to have a debate about guns is right after one of these incidents. Emotions run far too high on both sides. I’m all for a discussion to happen, but how about people being left to bury their loved ones first eh?

    And others are right, why in Australia do we care about this? We are not America.

  68. Cold-Hands

    Bob Carr BA Hons, CWB diverts foreign aid to Australia.

    Acting Coalition leader Julie Bishop had a great line: “The Gillard government has now made itself the third largest recipient of foreign aid.”

  69. James in Melbourne

    Without wishing to engage in the gun “debate,” (because I am not partial to having my masculinity/sexuality/penis ownership questioned), and without wishing to bring down torrents of analogies between the Newtown victims and foetii/zygotes (only because they were living, sentient bearers of many people’s love and hopes) can I just ask the Cat’s gun enthusiasts/advocates – quite seriously – what they suggest as to how we can ensure that a fruit-loop is not able to walk around a primary school with a combat weapon snuffing out kids?

  70. .

    You can’t.

    With or without gun laws.

    Shit happens.

    Let’s say I’m the Premier of QLD a few years ago:

    ‘Mr Premier, how can you assure another massacre like what happened at Childers never happens again’

    I couldn’t give you an honest answer without admitting impotence.

  71. Infidel Tiger

    what they suggest as to how we can ensure that a fruit-loop is not able to walk around a primary school with a combat weapon snuffing out kids?

    Maybe there is nothing we can do. No one wants to admit that, but it’s most likely true.

  72. .

    Look at the BTK murderer. A serial killer, not a mass murderer, but he was in low level law enforcement and a church deacon.

    You don’t have to be crazy to commit such evil acts, either.

  73. tbh

    IT has a point: there are some things that can’t be stopped. Who would have thought to stop Timothy McVeigh? Someone who is sufficiently motivated to kill a bunch of people will find a way to do it. All we can do is to try and identify those at highest risk of doing something before they do it. Even that is flawed though.

  74. twostix

    and without wishing to bring down torrents of analogies between the Newtown victims and foetii/zygotes (only because they were living, sentient bearers of many people’s love and hopes)

    A near term baby isn’t a “living, sentient bearer of peoples loves and hopes”?

    What depravity is this?

  75. Tom

    Maybe there is nothing we can do.

    But the left can fix everything. Already, they have worked out how to control the climate. It just requires a well-funded leftwing academic grantocracy. They guarantee results by the 22nd century.

  76. twostix

    The Scrooge Left: The Global Mail axes 20% of its staff a week before christmas.

    Crikey can reveal 20% of the existing staff base — two foreign correspondents, two Sydney-based reporters and two back office workers — have been asked to leave the long-form website following an “independent review”. The review was conducted by new board member Brooke Twyford, who worked alongside CEO Jane Nicholls at Time Inc in New York and recently returned to Australia.

    A Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance spokesperson confirmed the redundancies this morning, saying the union had written to TGM and was seeking an urgent meeting.

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/18/wood-slices-global-mail-staff-woos-guardian-to-oz/

  77. Dan

    If we are pulling money out of aid programs to pay for asylum costs, I bet we can safely assume the budget contingency reserve is empty

  78. James in Melbourne

    A near term baby isn’t a “living, sentient bearer of peoples loves and hopes”?

    What depravity is this?

    What I meant, Twostix – hoping, and seemingly failing, to keep the a-word out of it – is that they could talk back to you; that having been born, they were KIDS.

    Fufuxake.

  79. Maybe there is nothing we can do. No one wants to admit that, but it’s most likely true.

    These things can’t be stopped, but, at least in the US where a greater proportion of people are skilled in their use, having staff allowed to be armed could cut the consequences by an order of magnitude.

  80. steve from brisbane

    The overwhelming majority of people who own guns in the US are responsible and wouldn’t burst into a school and kill a bunch of people.

    Well, d’uh.

    The overwhelming majority also have nothing to fear from better gun registration laws, better background checking, and restrictions on things like high capacity magazines and limitations on the type of military style weaponry available to the person on the street.

    The fact that most people don’t drink drive doesn’t stop countries regulating in detail the consequences of drink driving, even though everyone knows it will still happen to some degree.

  81. John Mc

    James in Melbourne, if you want to look at the effects, effectiveness and unwanted causes of using laws to stop mass killings in civil society, both with guns and otherwise, I recommend you make a study of the Israeli experience. It’s covers every conceivable situation you’ve though of and some more. Even have a look Israeli High Court rulings regarding civil liberties and the use of barricades and searches.

  82. DaveF

    Ah I knew the Global Mail was a loser, they changed the format to a normal site, not the side scrolling codswallop it had before.

    There are 78,631 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Theglobalmail.org. Visitors to it spend about 44 seconds on each pageview

    Approximately 54% of visits to the site are bounces (one pageview only).

    Indeed.

  83. steve from brisbane

    I have to agree: side scrolling is unnatural.

  84. Punishing drivers for drink driving — after they break the law — is not analogous to regulating what type of car people who haven’t broken the law are allowed to have.

    You’re not even making sense anymore, SfB.

  85. Infidel Tiger

    Stop abusing science, Steve. Your emotions are out of control.

  86. tbh

    Better background checking: yes.
    Restricting auto and semi-auto weapons: I don’t know that it would make the slightest bit of difference

  87. Huckleberry Chunkwot

    You’re not even making sense anymore, SfB.

    WTF sdog? Since when has the perverted liar ever made sense? Every time that he comes here and makes some stupid assertion or links to some far left whacko website, someone tears him a new one and proves him to be a nonsensical nutjob zealot.

  88. DaveF

    as funder Graeme Wood looks to spend millions on an Australian version of The Guardian.

    He’s delusional, he could buy the Fairfax metro papers for 20 cents and rebadge them as Guardian Australia. He wouldn’t need to change staff.

    Honestly these people live in a parallel universe.

  89. Restricting auto and semi-auto weapons: I don’t know that it would make the slightest bit of difference

    Auto weapons are almost impossible to get anyway. It’s hard to see how they could be much more “restricted”:

    Weapons capable of fully automatic fire, including assault rifles, have been regulated heavily in the United States since the National Firearms Act of 1934. Taking possession of such weapons requires paying a $200 federal transfer tax and submitting to an FBI background check, including ten-print fingerprints.

    Media myths on ‘assault weapons’ and ‘semiautomatic firearms’

  90. steve from brisbane

    sdog: different drivers are regulated differently as to what levels of alcohol they can have in their system, and most people follow the regulations.

    If caught, they are prevented from using any car that they have for a period.

    It is a potentially fatal matter which is heavily regulated, and how it has been regulated has been altered over time in the interests of decreasing fatalities.

    The analogy to regulation of gun ownership is not perfect, but it has many aspects that are comparable.

    Let’s face it: this whole “making the perfect the enemy of the good” is just a big smokescreen against rational discussion of how to reduce risk in an area where NRA types are paranoid about government.

  91. Huckleberry Chunkwot

    A few days ago someone intimated that a prominent media personality may be clouded in their perspective by attending games of footy with the first lady bloke. Bolt spills the beans on who it is, quelle surprise!

  92. Infidel Tiger

    Steve, is the US homicide rate half what it was when assault rifles were banned? Yes or no?

    Is the overall US crime rate falling a like a stone despite a decade long gun buying binge? Yes or no?

    Stop rejecting science. Embrace it and let the truth be your friend.

  93. C.L.

    Just when you thought they couldn’t get any more weird:

    Labor a major recipient of own foreign aid.

    THE Gillard government is now the third largest recipient of its own foreign aid program, opposition foreign affairs spokeswoman Julie Bishop says.

  94. H B Bear

    Anyone working at The Global Mail should really regard themselves as unemployed.

    Going on Ol’ Leathery’s Abbott Hour from time to time doesn’t count either.

  95. Steve, if you can’t see what’s wrong with your analogy I can’t really help you.

  96. C.L.

    Essential Poll:

    FP: LNP 48%, poor old ALP only 36%.

    2PP: LNP 55% (+1), ALP 45% (-1)

    Wow. Abbo ten points in front.

    Great year, Jules.

    LOL.

  97. steve from brisbane

    I can’t really help you.

    Who wants to be helped by a dog with an entire family in the NRA, with an unhealthy obsession with women carrying guns to prevent rape?

  98. steve from brisbane

    IT, you have demonstrated inability to understand causation, so what’s the point of trying to explain to you the ways in which your simple minded “facts” are wrong?

  99. Infidel Tiger

    So you think that there is no causation between guns and crime and yet you want to ban them?

    Why don’t we introduce a bear patrol tax instead?

  100. Huckleberry Chunkwot

    It wasn’t IT who asked you to justify your “causation” pervert.
    I repeat,

    So Steve, tell me again what the causal relationship between CO2 and temperature is. Is that the one where there has been an exponential rise in one and no rise in the other?
    Fuckwit.

  101. Boy on a bike

    what they suggest as to how we can ensure that a fruit-loop is not able to walk around a primary school with a combat weapon snuffing out kids?

    Arm a few teachers. 10% would be more than sufficient.

    I know we like to think of teachers as a bunch of soft left pinkos in skirts, but in amongst them are the conservative sleepers who are hunters, sporting shooters or ex-military that could be authorized to carry in a trice.

  102. H B Bear

    The Guardian-on-the-Yarra to be replaced by the Guardian-on-the-Interwebs. Media diversity = more versions of wrong.

    Lefty Wotif guy seems to enjoy losing money. Should talk to Gina and Packer – they seem to have the same affliction.

  103. steve from brisbane

    Good article at Slate about the encouragement of paranoia by the NRA, and their long standing and transparent strategy of “this would be an inappropriate time to talk about gun control” which enables them never to have an appropriate time to talk about it.

    They really are creeps.

  104. Tom

    They really are creeps.

    Not nearly as creepy as your behaviour here, Dogshit.

  105. I know we like to think of teachers as a bunch of soft left pinkos in skirts, but in amongst them are the conservative sleepers

    Even if you wanted to assume that the majority of American teachers are Democrats…

    “Republicans are still more likely to report gun ownership, but the number of Democratic gun owners spiked dramatically — rising from 30 percent in 2009 to 40 percent this year [2011].”

  106. Infidel Tiger

    The American public overwhelmingly supports the 2nd Amendment.

    Foreign creeps like SfB should shut the fuck up and darn some socks.

  107. dover_beach

    What I meant, Twostix – hoping, and seemingly failing, to keep the a-word out of it – is that they could talk back to you; that having been born, they were KIDS.

    Fufuxake.

    Two things, you made a silly remark that pretended to solicit no further comment but in fact promiscuously invited one. Secondly, it was, and the follow-up was as well, ridiculous.

  108. John Mc

    Forming a factually-based opinion based solely on what you read in the popular media is so difficult. I’ve just looked at this article:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/gun-laws-grew-from-dunblane-tragedy/article6504191/

    which claims “Today Britain has one of the lowest murder rates among G8 countries”

    Firstly, what has the G8 got to do with it, and why would you exclude countries like Spain, Denmark, Austria etc let alone Switzerland.

    Secondly, out of the eight countries of the G8, by my research France, Germany, Italy and Japan all have lower murder rates than the UK. And this is consistently the case over time and the three Europeans all have more liberal firearms laws.

    I suppose, to be as kind as you could be, it’s not an incorrect claim, but it’s intentionally misleading.

  109. Infidel Tiger

    Today Britain has one of the lowest murder rates among G8 countries”


    Gun crime up by 89% in Britain.

    My goodness the left have really abandoned science and reason. It’s unhealthy for our democracy to have these people walking amongst us.

  110. Jarrah

    It may just be an exotic military project in its early stages, but this sort of thing shows why the NBN isn’t the essential infrastructure so many people contend it is.

    DARPA sees the next leap in data throughput coming from improvements in extreme high frequency (EHF) radio technology. Using wavelengths measured in millimeters, EHF frequencies—such as the 60 gigahertz frequency used at the top end of the WiGig standard—are typically only effective for communications at short range and within line of sight. But DARPA believes that by using techniques in the modulation of signals, including quadrature amplitude modulation (QAM), the millimeter wave band can be used over much greater distances, through cloud cover, and to achieve even higher throughput. In a statement on the program, DARPA program manager Dick Ridgeway said the project “plans to demonstrate how high-order modulation and spatial multiplexing can be synergistically combined to achieve 100 Gigabits per second.”

    http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/12/darpa-looks-to-create-wireless-skynet-with-fiber-like-100gb-bandwidth/

  111. UK is most violent nation in Europe and is worse than US

    “Britain also has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.”

    More.

  112. Infidel Tiger

    It’s good to see Jarrah, someone who has suffered from bouts of magical leftist thinking abandoning the NBN nonsense.

    This is refreshing and gives me hope for the future that the left may once again embrace science, reason and freedom from tyranny.

  113. twostix

    The non “paranoid” rantings of the two prolific anti-gun posters:

    a big smokescreen against rational discussion of how to reduce risk in an area where NRA types are paranoid about government.

    Good article at Slate about the encouragement of paranoia by the NRA

    Mk50 – Just another ignorant local apologist for the NRA,

    It’s instructive that one lobby, the NRA, can hold that democracy hostage

    That’s a cowardly copout, and characteristic of the response of legislators too frightened to take on the NRA.

    It is. Only in the USA it’s a bit more sophisticated[than the Taliban] and is called the NRA.

    I thought this article in Salon, detailing the sensible provisions that the NRA opposes re gun registration and background checks was very good.

    the NRA has a leadership that literally thinks every man and woman in America should be encouraged to be armed for their own safety.

    the NRA has refused to be part of Presidential discussions about gun control after mass shootings

    Ahem:

    What we are seeing here is the continuation of the paranoid attitude of the NRA

    You two: SfB and numbers are absolutely out of your minds you tinfoil hat wearing authoritarian nutjobs.

  114. Jarrah

    “It’s good to see Jarrah, someone who has suffered from bouts of magical leftist thinking abandoning the NBN nonsense.”

    Excuse me? Abandoning? I’ve never supported it. Furthermore, none of my thinking is magical, and similarities to leftist or rightist thinking is coincidental only, something moderate libertarians just have to live with.

  115. John Mc

    Jarrah has a different perception of the world. However I respect it and he defers to emperical data when possible; in other words, he’s honest.

  116. Jarrah

    Everyone has a different perception of the world, John Mc. That’s the point of individuality.

  117. Tom

    Essential Poll:

    FP: LNP 48%, poor old ALP only 36%.

    2PP: LNP 55% (+1), ALP 45% (-1)

    Still not a word about the union-friendly Essential Report in the zombie media after yesterday’s AbbottAbbottAbbott hysteria. The thing I find especially heartening about Essential is the likely 2013 thrashing of the Greens, which are struggling for a single quota in the states. The three Greens up for re-election next year, including Wednesday Addams, will probably be booted.

  118. Gun-control proponents: Purchasing a gun is easier than buying a cup of coffee, adopting a cat, doing just about anything

    What? You don’t own a gun? Are you sure? According to Jesse Jackson, Piers Morgan, Jennifer Granholm and a lot of others, buying a gun in America is so easy, you might have purchased several already and don’t even know it.

    In the recent case that spurred all this, of course, the shooter was barred from buying a gun. He tried, and they wouldn’t let him. But let’s not mention that.

    LOL. The American Steves are losin’ it.

  119. Viva

    So do you troll with the moniker “Capricornia of Potts Point” at Blair’s, or were all Aussie anti-gun nuts sent a single set of retarded comments to post on various blogs?

    My you are a nasty little man sdog. I don’t often comment on Tim Blair’s site but I mostly agree with his views and the same goes for the views expressed on the Cat. You will note that the guys here know me well enough to respect the fact that I sometimes have a different view from the majority (eg guns and the Republic) and are polite in their responses to my posts. I return the favour. I note that you are infesting a lot of sites with your condescending abuse on this issue so I was rather expecting you to rear your ugly head here.

  120. Token

    what they suggest as to how we can ensure that a fruit-loop is not able to walk around a primary school with a combat weapon snuffing out kids?

    Read the article I posted at 12:33pm – found here. “Fruit loops” like Jared Loughner can be detained if they did not take their medication.

    Now, who made the claim that our gun laws prevent such crimes?

    The Monash University shooting refers to a shooting in which a student shot his classmates and teacher, killing two and injuring five. It took place at Monash University in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia on 21 October 2002.

    Why are the articles I’m posting focused on mental health? Is this a common issue in such crimes? Let’s look at that Autralian example again:

    The gunman, Huan Yun Xiang, was acquitted of crimes related to the shootings due to mental impairment, and is currently under psychiatric care. Several of the people present in the room of the shootings have been commended for their bravery in tackling Xiang and ending the shooting.

    So in our Australian example it was the actions of the potential victims that saved lives. Hmmmm.

  121. Alice

    Someone said a a solution
    “Arm a few teachers. 10% would be more than sufficient.”

    Great then we would get the lunatic teachers going crazy (or the disgruntled sacked, or marriage broke up teachers already armed).

    Better still get some security guards on the gate. Arm them.

  122. Alice

    Yeah Viva – I also find sdog a bit of a pain in the bum with the insults. What sort of dog does he think he is? Watchdog?
    You dont dog own this territory so quit the aggro barking at people (that has nothing to do with the argument usually).

  123. Boy on a bike

    Then make sure you have at least two armed teachers so the sane one can shoot the nutter.

  124. .

    Alice

    Israel does that. Schoolkids are not routinely shot at by Palestinian terrorists anymore.

  125. I note that you are infesting a lot of sites with your condescending abuse on this issue

    Two blogs – Tim Blair’s and this one – are “a lot”? Well dear you are “infesting” at least as many as I am with your inane anti-gun nonsense. And using at least twice as many different sockpuppets as I, too.

    so I was rather expecting you to rear your ugly head here.

    Yes, I’ve never commented here on this blog before this issue came up. Ever.

  126. Yeah Viva – I also find sdog a bit of a pain in the bum with the insults.

    You just don’t like it when you’ve been caught out telling inconsistent “stories”, Catfish. Simplest way around that is to drop the Walter Mitty act.

  127. squawkbox

    Then make sure you have at least two armed teachers so the sane one can shoot the nutter.

    From what I remember of my primary school days the crazy teachers outnumbered the sane ones at least 5:1

  128. C.L.

    Good article at Slate about the encouragement of paranoia by the NRA, and their long standing and transparent strategy of “this would be an inappropriate time to talk about gun control” which enables them never to have an appropriate time to talk about it.

    They really are creeps.

    Slate passionately supports NARAL, of course.

  129. Gab

    Great then we would get the lunatic teachers going crazy (or the disgruntled sacked, or marriage broke up teachers already armed).

    Better still get some security guards on the gate. Arm them.

    Israel armed teachers and other staff (some, not all) way back in 1974 after a spate of attacks at schools.

    No school has been attacked since then.

  130. SteveC

    Israel armed teachers and other staff (some, not all) way back in 1974 after a spate of attacks at schools.

    No school has been attacked since then.

    I think you’ve fallen for a right-wing con, Gab.

  131. johanna

    Spoiled and neurotic education culture among many local students and their useless parents shown up here:

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/international-duo-share-atar-honour-20121217-2bjm7.html

    “Two international students who spoke English as a second language and arrived in Australia at the start of Year 11 have achieved Canberra’s equal top Australian Tertiary Admission Rank of 99.95.

    Narrabundah College student Rongkai Tian arrived in Australia from China 2½ years ago.

    He lived alone and put himself through an intensive six-month English bridging course at Narrabundah College before starting Year 11 in 2011.

    Canberra Girls Grammar School student Maryam Eghtedari arrived at the start of 2011 from Iran with her family. Her older sister also studied at Girls Grammar and completed Year 12 last year with an ATAR of 99.8.”

    Narrabundah College is a selective public school, Girls Grammar is private.

    The rest of the world is going to eat us alive if we continue to treat kids like porcelain and allow them to think that anything they do is fabulous because they are special snowflakes. These kids clearly were not contaminated by such nonsense.

  132. Gab

    He lived alone and put himself through an intensive six-month English bridging course at Narrabundah College before starting Year 11 in 2011.

    He has well and truly honoured his family. I’d employ someone like him even without any formal qualifications. This kid has potential!

  133. blogstrop

    SteveC may well talk about cons. He’s been supporting the most incompetent and deceptive government in memory. Just don’t bother, mate. You’re just another waste of space here.

  134. Gab

    “The Gillard government has now made itself the third largest recipient of foreign aid,” Ms Bishop said.

    Agree, Cold Hands that was a good line by Julie, as was:

    “The people-smugglers have greater control over the Australian budget than the Labor government does.”

  135. Gab

    the budget contingency reserve is empty

    LOL. Labor? with thoughts of a contingency reserve? Dan, that was very funny.

  136. .

    Their contingency was the future fund. Shorten is looking superannuation.

    No wonder they want an early election, before tha wukkas pick up on this massive theft and sovereign betrayal.

    Imagine what that would do to sovereign borrowing rates with all levels of Government debt exceeding 40% of GDP, and what that in itself would do to our economy.

    They are a bunch of incompetent criminals and clowns. We’d be better off with some mental patients on strong liquor, and occasionally, Picaninny Polish.

  137. Gab

    Gotta love Texas:

    The Texas superintendent linked gun-free zones with the uprising of school shootings in recent years.

    “When you make schools gun-free zones, it’s like inviting people to come in and take advantage,” Thweatt told FOXNews.com…
    In order for teachers and staff to carry a pistol, they must have a Texas license to carry a concealed handgun; must be authorized to carry by the district; must receive training in crisis management and hostile situations and must use ammunition that is designed to minimize the risk of ricochet in school halls.

    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/12/17/texas-school-district-allows-teachers-to-carry-concealed-firearms/

  138. tbh

    He has well and truly honoured his family. I’d employ someone like him even without any formal qualifications. This kid has potential!

    Anyone with that amount of hustle will go far in life I reckon. I love reading stories about people who come to this country, put their heads down and make something of themselves. There are a few native born kids who could learn a thing or two from them.

  139. Dead Soul

    Read the article I posted at 12:33pm – found here. “Fruit loops” like Jared Loughner can be detained if they did not take their medication.

    There are some who argue that the problem is psychiatric medication. I don’t but do wonder about whether the reliance on mainly psychotropic medication to treat mental illness is part of the problem. I saw this recently with a friend of mine. He has an anxiety disorder, a few psychotherapeutic sessions but always on the antipsychotic(the one involved not recommended for anxiety) and an antidepressant. Yet the data is clear, optimal treatment must involve some form of psychotherapy, in fact drugs for anxiety are not that good. If we continue to treat mental illness as a physical illness when clearly these are two very different classes of pathology we are never going to get on top of the mental illness problem.

    The USA uses 80% of all the world’s antidepressants, has childhood behaviorla disorder rates through the roof, one million children on antipsychotics. The USA is breeding sick puppies.

    So stuff what the National Review says, they are not even seeing the problem: we don’t know who will go postal.

  140. tbh

    DS, I would be interested on your take on the amount of medication modern kiddies are being given to treat “errant” behaviour. It seems to me that it’s being used as a bit of a crutch at time. Kid misbehaving? Then give them some dexies to settle down or something similar. Am I way off base here or is there some science to suggest we are over medicating?

  141. Rabz

    I think you’ve fallen for a right-wing con, Gab.

    I wasn’t Gab who first pointed out that indisputable fact, you pompous imbecile.

  142. candy

    It seems an easy way out for parents to let thier kids be given powerful drugs,
    but perhaps they are afraid for children in regard to self harm and suicide, due to the social pressures they feel now etc, kids take on a lot of stress.

  143. Token

    The USA is breeding sick puppies.

    A good point. Removing guns to a level which makes them hard to obtain will not remove the problem if the soecial issues are not addressed.

    The thrust of the comments I’ve posted addresses the social reason these events are occuring.

    Seeing I have your attention DS, I keep reading that the hyped media coverage encourages copy cat killings.

    Does this point have any relevance? Is it probable these events would not occur so often if the reporting process was similar to suicides?

  144. Dead Soul

    Am I way off base here or is there some science to suggest we are over medicating?

    Recent data on antidepressants suggests that these drugs are way too often prescribed and their efficacy is sometimes no better than placebo. The irony is that the placebo effect is often larger which means on an evidence based analysis one would advise the patient:
    Your best chances of a cure are the placebo effect then the drugs.

    The big exception is severe depression, there the drugs do wonders. We may even be scripting depression, “teaching” people how to be depressed. The off label use of antipsychotics in the USA is atrocious and is going to lead to a rash of law suits, particularly given data suggesting these drugs induce cerebral atrophy in some patients. I “magic bullet” mentality drives us to seek a pill for every problem.

    I was discussing the issue of how to understand behavior with a friend of mine a few days. I suggested that while biology, physics, and chemistry work fine “below the neck”, we need a new cognitive tool kit for above the neck. So in a sense Freud, Jung etc were right but chose the wrong path. He laughed, like myself he regards “biological psychiatry” as an oxymoron. A recent Australian study found that giving people antipsychotics and\or psychotherapy did NOTHING to ward off psychosis. The drugs help with psychosis but do not appear to prevent it arising in the first instance.

    The challenge is enormous, we don’t understand so much about behavior let alone this sort of behavior. There is hope though, just yesterday I noticed an abstract which claimed(me doubtful) that through a meta-analysis they could determine from MRI alone psychiatric conditions. Getting better, oh so slowly … .

  145. Token

    The rest of the world is going to eat us alive if we continue to treat kids like porcelain and allow them to think that anything they do is fabulous because they are special snowflakes. These kids clearly were not contaminated by such nonsense.

    It is amazing what kids can do when they know the future of their family depends upon it.

  146. tbh

    DS, thanks. Appreciate it.

  147. Dead Soul

    Seeing I have your attention DS, I keep reading that the hyped media coverage encourages copy cat killings.

    Well I am an iconoclast so can’t relate to copy cat behavior! I don’t know Token, it is common sense that we copy behavior, we do that all the time. The news is all over all this, the person becomes something but I don’t think these people are seeking fame, I think they are “acting out” is the most extreme of examples of that!

  148. tbh

    It is amazing what kids can do when they know the future of their family depends upon it.

    Indeed. It is possible, however, for us as first world parents to give kids a sense of perspective and not turn them into a bunch of annoying drama queens.

    One thing that I’ve observed is that more young adults or teens than ever don’t know how to handle failure or even something going slightly awry. I feel we wrap them in cotton wool too much and try to shield them from every little thing that could go wrong.

    Two things that my two hear from me all the time:

    “Well you won’t do that again…”
    “Don’t get bitter, get better”

    Mrs TBH thinks I’m too hard on them at times, but better to come from me early on than being unprepared for it happening in an unforgiving world later.

  149. johanna

    Token,in the two cases cited I don’t think that ‘the future of their family’ had anything to do with it, although your point is valid.

    The Chinese guy must have come from a wealthy family, and the Iranian girl’s parents could afford high fees at Girls’ Grammar. So, it wasn’t necessity, it was culture (and brains).

  150. steve from brisbane

    Quite good article in Salon detailing (with lots of quotes from experts) the reasons why more guns everywhere is not a sensible response to mass shootings.

  151. Cold-Hands

    In a move that ranks right up with the publication of the Wicked Bible, a US publishing group have printed a Gay Bible.

    The world’s first ‘gay bible’ has been published in the US, with all references to homosexuality being a sin removed.

    Dubbed the Queen James Bible — a play on the King James bible, the most popular English translation of the holy book — the religious text has been translated to “prevent homophobic misinterpretation of God’s word”…

    …”Anti-LGBT Bible interpretations commonly cite only eight verses in the Bible that they interpret to mean homosexuality is a sin; Eight verses in a book of thousands!

    “The Queen James Bible seeks to resolve interpretive ambiguity in the Bible as it pertains to homosexuality: We edited those eight verses in a way that makes homophobic interpretations impossible.”

    I wonder how they treat the story of Sodom and Gomorrah?

  152. blogstrop

    The ABC has lots of quotes from carefully chosen experts, SfB. It doesn’t make them any more reliable than you are.

  153. Dead Soul

    The Queen James Bible seeks to resolve interpretive ambiguity in the Bible as it pertains to homosexuality: We edited those eight verses in a way that makes homophobic interpretations impossible.”

    We’ve had Liberation Theology now we have Queer Theology. That’s the great thing about Theology, it can mean anything thing you like.

  154. Mk50 of Brisbane

    SteveC:

    Israel armed teachers and other staff (some, not all) way back in 1974 after a spate of attacks at schools.

    No school has been attacked since then.

    I think you’ve fallen for a right-wing con, Gab.

    Really?

    What are the facts?

    1. 15 May 1974. Target, Netiv Meir elementary school. Attack type, Terrorist spree killing, hostage taking, school shooting. Deaths, 31 Israelis.

    2. 6 March 2008. Mercaz HaRav massacre, lone Palestinian terrorist shot multiple students at the Mercaz HaRav yeshiva, a religious school in Jerusalem, Israel, and was then shot dead by an armed student.

    3. Since the Netiv Meir slaughter, schools have been protected based on the assessed threat. They are fenced, there is an entry with an armed guard or two. No-one enters without reason and displaying ID, and no-one enters armed. Teachers are armed where threat levels justify it. No successful attack has been mounted on a primary or secondary school since 1974.

    SteveC – once again, facts show that you are wrong.

    In the awful case in the US, a nutter denied a firearms license then stole firearms, murdered his mother, disobeyed the declaration that no guns were allowed at the school, and then started slaughtering unarmed targets. The school had a ‘magical thinking protection’ (but lunatics and criminals do not obey the law – funny that) and a locked but unprotected perimeter. No response capability at all and even several men and women with knives might have been able to ambush the bastard in a building.

    When the slaughter started, they called for an armed response.

    Think about that for a moment.

    They called for an armed response.

    So the answer to the threat was an armed response and they called for it.

    But they had taken pains to make sure the armed response was distant and slow, not close and immediate.

    The answer is obvious and it has nothing to do with the long-debated US issues with breaching a US citizen’s constitutional rights at all – where the treat assessment is high, have the armed response close and immediately available. Have an improved perimeter defence to slow the threat down. If the level of assessed threat makes it necessary, arm staff inside the buildings.

    Magical thinking and ineffective threat assessment and threat amelioration cost those kids and teachers their lives.

    And when the threat eventuated, the school did not call for an interpretive dance ensemble, nor for Tuvan throat singers in traditional dress.

    They called for an armed response because they had none of their own.

  155. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Twostix, our two barking mad hoplophobes have been monkey-dancing furiously, haven’t they?

    Mk50 – Just another ignorant local apologist for the NRA,

    it’s probably escaped your notice in your onanistic frenzy, you cretins, but this is Australia. The American NRA is a less than negligible factor here. Different culture, different country, lots of wet salty stuff between the two, you see.

    We have the Sporting Shooter’s Association of Australia and yes, I am certainly a member of that.

    As are the majority of Australia’s law-abiding legal, mature and sensible registered gun owners.

  156. jumpnmcar

    Well, we’ve only got 1 week left to celebrate ” The Year of the Farmer” so maybe we consider a few facts and wonder who could succeed them for 2013 honours for ” Year of the …….”

    * 72 percent of Aussie farmers are male, 89 percent of farmers were born in Australia, and the average farmer is 53 years old.

    * Half of all farmers work more than 49 hours per week and more than half (56 percent) are self-employed owner managers.

    * In 2011-12, the average Australian consumed 104 litres of milk, 32 kilograms of beef, 25 kilograms of pork and ham and 9 kilograms of lamb!

  157. SteveC

    Teachers are armed where threat levels justify it.

    Have you got a reference for that mk50?
    I read otherwise.
    http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23572/Default.aspx

  158. ella

    A recent Australian study found that giving people antipsychotics and/or psychotherapy did NOTHING to ward of psychosis.

    Antipsychotic drugs such as Zyprexa, for example, are prescribed for Schizophrenia where the patients suffers from hallucinations and delusions, often with great success.

    Antipsychotic drugs have improved over the past couple of decades, and many patients no longer suffer problems associated with medication such as Akathisea (restlessness) and Tardive Dyskinesia ( involuntary, repeditive movements.)

    I’m not surprised psychotherapy did nothing to “ward of psychosis”.

  159. Dead Soul

    Have you got a reference for that mk50?
    I read otherwise.

    Thanks Steve. I find the idea of having to arm teachers because of violent kids to be more disturbing than the violent kids issue. Teachers have very high rates of depression and depression seems to be playing a part here, not psychosis. (there has always been this lingering relationship between depression and violence, with one ideas being that depression is simply violence turned against one’s self. So you are arming one of the most depressed demographic groups in the country to prevent violence? Yeah … .

  160. nilk

    America’s First Big Digital Defeat

    The open Internet, available to people around the world without the permission of any government, was a great liberation. It was also too good to last. Authoritarian governments this month won the first battle to close off parts of the Internet.

    At the just-concluded conference of the International Telecommunications Union in Dubai, the U.S. and its allies got outmaneuvered. The ITU conference was highly technical, which may be why the media outside of tech blogs paid little attention, but the result is noteworthy: A majority of the 193 United Nations member countries approved a treaty giving governments new powers to close off access to the Internet in their countries.

    U.S. diplomats were shocked by the result, but they shouldn’t have been surprised. Authoritarian regimes, led by Russia and China, have long schemed to use the U.N. to claim control over today’s borderless Internet, whose open, decentralized architecture makes it hard for these countries to close their people off entirely. In the run-up to the conference, dozens of secret proposals by authoritarian governments were leaked online.

    ITU head Hamadoun Touré, a Mali native trained in the Soviet Union, had assured that his agency operates by consensus, not by majority vote. He also pledged that the ITU had no interest beyond telecommunications to include the Internet. He kept neither promise.

    A vote was called late one night last week in Dubai—at first described as a nonbinding “feel of the room on who will accept”—on a draft giving countries new power over the Internet.

    The result was 89 countries in favor, with 55 against. The authoritarian majority included Russia, China, Arab countries, Iran and much of Africa. Under the rules of the ITU, the treaty takes effect in 2015 for these countries. Countries that opposed it are not bound by it, but Internet users in free countries will also suffer as global networks split into two camps—one open, one closed.

    Well there’s a surprise – totalitarian countries want to control the internet.

  161. JC

    Have you got a reference for that mk50?
    I read otherwise.

    No you didn’t , you lying sack of shit.

    Your own link, while disavowing the idea that all teachers are packing heat explains that school kids are protected either by armed guards, military or the teachers themselves.

    You really are a dishonest fucking turd, steves c. It seems even our plas

  162. Infidel Tiger

    In 2011-12, the average Australian consumed 104 litres of milk, 32 kilograms of beef, 25 kilograms of pork and ham and 9 kilograms of lamb!

    Pitiful. I get through that a month.

  163. JC

    Have you got a reference for that mk50?
    I read otherwise.

    No you didn’t , you lying sack of shit.

    Your own link, while disavowing the idea that all teachers are packing heat explains that school kids are protected either by armed guards, military or the teachers themselves.

    You really are a dishonest fucking turd, steves c. It seems even our plastic sex doll, Kimberly is beginning to reject you.

  164. Dead Soul

    Antipsychotic drugs such as Zyprexa, for example, are prescribed for Schizophrenia where the patients suffers from hallucinations and delusions, often with great success.

    Ella, I stated “off label” use. Antipsychotic drugs have not been anywhere near adequately tested in children, let alone for off label purposes. Neither the drugs or psychotherapy warded off psychosis as a preventative strategy but there is no doubt antipsychotics do help with psychosis management.

  165. Infidel Tiger

    So, lefties still want to ban guns even though it has been scientifically proven through rigorous statistical analysis that they lower the crime rate.

    Why does the left hate science and reason?

  166. nilk

    DS, do we know why teachers apparently have such high rates of depression?

  167. Alice

    Excuse me IT but have any “lefties” wanted to ban guns in here or did you make this up as a figmrnt of you own imahination?

    You know – I am so sick to death of this BS lefty righty war (its BS really).

    Argue the fucking point!!! (should guns in the hands of the civilian popultaion be banned or not?/ On what grounds ?? pros / cons etc – after this shocking gunning down of five to ten year olds the debate is worthy) without recourse to what you think fucking imaginary enemies might say…etc

    Get to the point.

  168. SteveC

    So JC, are teachers in Israel generally armed or not? That was the line I was disputing. The argument that teachers should be armed, based on Israeli experience, is simply incorrect. Arming teachers is not the same as providing armed guards in schools.

    Another interesting read on guns in Israel:
    http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07/24/3101546/despite-militarized-society-israels-strict-gun-laws-keep-civilian-violence-down

  169. JC

    I don’t even understand why the issue of armed guards in front of a school is controversial.

    Drive past Jewish schools in Melbourne and you will see a couple of armed security company personnel standing around the school.

    StevesC would obviously like to see the end of this making the kids vulnerable to being attacked by lunactics prompted by the leftwing BDS movements which attempt to destroy Jewish businesses.

  170. Mk50 of Brisbane

    So you accept the rest of what I wrote, SteveC: good.

    See, you can indeed learn.

    You are questioning one small part of the following (the bit in italics)

    3. Since the Netiv Meir slaughter, schools have been protected based on the assessed threat. They are fenced, there is an entry with an armed guard or two. No-one enters without reason and displaying ID, and no-one enters armed. Teachers are armed where threat levels justify it. No successful attack has been mounted on a primary or secondary school since 1974.

    So I thought to myself, how to provide best-available data to a lefty? Easy, look on left wing sites!

    So http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/12/16/israeli-teachers-are-armed-and-other-stupid-right-wing-myths/

    That one’s nice and mendacious. It even quotes a teacher who is a Quaker as ‘proof’ that guns = dark forces.

    You’ll notice that even this left-wing idiot accepts that some Israeli teachers are armed where threat levels justify it (Israel’s west bank for example). He/she/it also notes that “Each Israeli teacher goes through at least two years of military training.”

    So any islamic terrorist or other nutter knows that he’s going up against an armed target where even if every single teacher is unarmed, all have at least some military training and will at least fight cohesively even if all they have are extempore weapons.

    And all that adds up to not one attack on a secular/state/primary/secondary school since 1974.

    Ever been to the Philippines? They never have armed attacks on schools there either. The half-dozen or so armed security guards at each school see to that.

  171. Dead Soul

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23218022
    Randomized controlled trial of interventions for young people at ultra-high risk of psychosis: twelve-month outcome.

    Ella,

    This is odd:

    …all 3 groups improved substantially during the trial, particularly in terms of negative symptoms and overall functioning.

    So where is the hidden variable\s?

    This is the recent study but they only used low dose risperidone as a drug treatment intervention. I have big problems with the idea put forward that we should place “at risk” individuals on antipsychotics let alone the recent new category for “at risk of psychosis” in the DSM 5. In any event the relevant psychopathology here is depression, not psychosis.

  172. SteveC

    Could it also be the low level of gun proliferation and strict gun laws in Israel that make it safer?

    “Each Israeli teacher goes through at least two years of military training.”

    Are you suggesting that same approach for US teachers?

  173. Infidel Tiger

    You know – I am so sick to death of this BS lefty righty war (its BS really).

    Lefties hate being called lefties. They absolutely fucking hate it.

    I am extremely proud to be a far right wing nut job. I love the crazy idea of freedom and responsibility.

  174. Carpe Jugulum

    I wonder how they treat the story of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Adam and Steves picnic day at the volcano?

  175. Alice

    Sinc

    did – not sure about that. In Underbelly the violent people are criminals who get caught and punished in the end.

    Thats just the movies. Ill be happy when that xcumbag Obeid goes down in the end. Till then in real life…

  176. Infidel Tiger

    Get to the point.

    You’re a delusional sherry soaked rat bag, but you’re okay.

  177. JC

    So JC, are teachers in Israel generally armed or not?

    Some are, as your own link suggests steves C, you fucking moron. And it also would lend support to the idea that every school in Israel would have arms or access to armed guards, particularly in the areas where the murderous fucks you and the rest of the BDS movement support have more room to ply their trade.

    That was the line I was disputing. The argument that teachers should be armed, based on Israeli experience, is simply incorrect.

    The fact is that Israeli schools sense the possibility of risk because of where they are or heightened tensions, armed protection will be made available.

    Arming teachers is not the same as providing armed guards in schools

    Lol

    It’s certainly cheaper.

    In any event the risk in Israel is different. The risk in the US appears random, which is more of a reason why teachers may need to be armed.

  178. Gab

    Then, on May 15, 1974, in Maalot:

    Three PLO gunmen, after making their way through the border fence, first shot up a van load full of workers returning from a tobacco factory (incidentally these people happened to be Galilee Arabs, not Jews), then they entered the school compound of Maalot. First they murdered the housekeeper, his wife and one of their kids, then they took a whole group of nearly 100 kids and their teachers hostage. These were staying overnight at the school, as they were on a hiking trip. In the end, the deadline ran out, and the army’s special unit assaulted the building. During the rescue attempt, the gunmen blew their explosive charges and sprayed the kids with machine-gun fire. 25 people died, 66 wounded.

    Israel at the time had some strict gun laws, left over from the days of British colonialism, when the British rulers tried to prevent the Jews from owning guns.

    After vigorous debate, the government began allowing army reservists to keep their weapons with them. Handgun carry permits were given to any Israeli with a clean record who lived in the most dangerous areas: Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

    All over Israel, guns became pervasive in the schools:

    Teachers and kindergarten nurses now started to carry guns, schools were protected by parents (and often grandpas) guarding them in voluntary shifts. No school group went on a hike or trip without armed guards. The Police involved the citizens in a voluntary civil guard project “Mishmar Esrachi,” which even had its own sniper teams. The Army’s Youth Group program, “Gadna”, trained 15 to 16-year-old kids in gun safety and guard procedures and the older high-school boys got involved with the Mishmar Esrachi. During one noted incident, the “Herzliyah Bus massacre” (March ’78, hijacking of a bus, 37 dead, 76 wounded), these youngsters were involved in the overall security measures in which the whole area between North Tel Aviv and the resort town of Herzlyiah was blocked off, manning roadblocks with the police, guarding schools kindergartens, etc.

    After a while, “When the message got around to the PLO groups and a couple infiltration attempts failed, the attacks against schools ceased.”

    This is not to say that Palestinian terrorists never target schools. In late May 2002, an Israeli teacher shot a suicide terrorist before he could harm anyone.

    On May 31, 2002, as reported by Israel National News, a terrorist threw a grenade and began shooting at a kindergarten in Shavei Shomron. Then, instead of closing in on the children, he abruptly fled the kindergarten and began shooting up the nearby neighborhood. Apparently he realized that the kindergarten was sure to have armed adults, and that he could not stay at the school long enough to make sure he actually murdered someone.

  179. .

    Alice

    Listen to me.

    You could remake Underbelly The Tale of Two Cities or Golden Mile based on a certain high ranking NSW ALP Cabinet Minister.

    When that SOB pops his clogs, all kinds of nasty things will be said. I understand he is in poor health.

    He makes Askin look like a boy scout.

  180. Dead Soul

    DS, do we know why teachers apparently have such high rates of depression?

    Because they are teaching a generation of spoiled brats? An old study even found teachers had higher rates of autoimmune diseases, which is very odd. I would like to see a breakdown of those diseases because some autoimmune diseases are inflammatory mediated, at least raising the suggestion that the teachers are exposed to particularly high stress loads. Not so surprising really since teacher capacity to manage the classroom has declined in recent decades.

    I remember my maths teacher reducing one student to tears just by yelling at him. Mind you he was really yelling! If a teacher did that today they would be out of a job. But that teacher was the only good maths teacher I had at high school. He was a great teacher and like the rest of the class I was happy he gave it to that suckhole because he was a real pain in the ass. Today such behavior would be regarded as psychologically damaging. Which is kinda funny because where psychological damage most frequently occurs is from the peers, not the adults(excepting cases like shitty parents).

  181. Alice

    Sdog quotes Alice on sdog
    ” Yeah Viva – I also find sdog a bit of a pain in the bum with the insults.

    (ueah I do)

    sdog replies (catfish is me apparently)

    You just don’t like it when you’ve been caught out telling inconsistent “stories”, Catfish. Simplest way around that is to drop the Walter Mitty act.”

    You peddle lies and crap about my ( and other people’s) lives and you get in here and accuse me of BS (Walter Mitty act)?

    WTF??

    Who the fuck are you but a little dog? Fuck off.

    I have all the proof and I dont need to explain myself or my life to a gravatar that looks like a dog, acts like a dog and wants to bark bullshit in here. Grow up sdog, learn a decent argumemnt without personal attack, and get yourself a more mature gravatar as well.

    Child. So annoying.

  182. Gab

    2005.

    Thai teachers to be allowed guns
    A Thai security officer stands guard in front of a house following a shooting incident in which a teacher was injured, southern Narathiwat province, 28 June 2005.
    Many teachers in the south want to be armed against militant attacks
    School teachers in Thailand’s troubled southern provinces will be allowed to carry guns, the government has said.

    The move is one of a series of measures designed to keep education staff from leaving the violence-hit south.

    Many of the region’s teachers are thought to have either stopped working or demanded a transfer from the area.

    More than 700 people, including at least 24 teachers, have been killed since January 2004 in unrest which the government blames on Islamic militants.

    Teachers are often targeted as they are seen as symbols of Thailand’s Buddhist authorities.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4651711.stm

  183. SteveC

    The concept that more guns would mean less gun deaths is pretty bizarre. This is a good site for numbers to check the logic of that assertion: http://www.gunpolicy.org/
    A scary fact that emerges is that the USA at .9 guns per capita has more accidental deaths (.27 per 100,000) than Australia has gun homicides (.1)

    The other useful thing to note is the significant drop in gun deaths in Australia since the change of policy in 1997

  184. .

    The other useful thing to note is the significant drop in gun deaths in Australia since the change of policy in 1997

    Suicides don’t count, they just substitute for other means.

    Port Arthur skewed the sample. The trend was going down anyway.

    Please go through the data more carefully.

    The concept that more guns would mean less gun deaths is pretty bizarre. This is a good site for numbers to check the logic of that assertion:

    No, less violent crime and murders, with and without guns. That is the assertion, which the data backs up.

    Suicides we have no control over and when an accident involves only the adult user of a firearm, it is sad, but it is only as sad and meaningful as a single car, single occupant car fatality.

  185. Alice

    Hint Dot hint please.

    The last state ALP were filthy and they will rot in the hell of opposition for a long time to come I hope..even that slickback smooth talking sleazebag Roosendahl was in on the game… ie the bloody Treasurer (we;; Ill be damned!!) and how about puppet premier Keneally – is anyone going to tell me she wasnt in the game?

    Right to the top. Filth and corruption.

  186. Infidel Tiger

    The concept that more guns would mean less gun deaths is pretty bizarre.

    But true. Look it up fuckwit and stop being a science denying gob shite.

    US Murder rate in 1991: 9.8 per 100,000. Murder rate now: 4.9 per 100,000.

    Many more guns, far less deaths.

  187. Tom

    The concept that more guns would mean less gun deaths is pretty bizarre.

    No it’s not. It’s just incomprehnsible to you because you’re mentally ill. It’s cruel that you have lived most of your like surrounded by the mentally ill, so you have not been told the facts of life.

  188. Mk50 of Brisbane

    SteveC:

    Could it also be the low level of gun proliferation and strict gun laws in Israel that make it safer?

    “Each Israeli teacher goes through at least two years of military training.”

    Are you suggesting that same approach for US teachers?

    He shoots, he scores! Here’s a tip, folks!

    When taking your lefty’s “argument” apart at the seams, use left-wing sites. The lefty has nowhere to go. The usual lefty tactic is to dismiss the site because it does not accord with their bigotry.

    They can’t do that with a lefty site. AFter all, they have their mental disease in common.

    So here, SteveC is reduced to the weakest of all possible responses (the laughable line bolded above.

    As to actual figures, SteveC, try here.

  189. blogstrop

    Wow. SteveC actually invokes numbers. There’s your measure of a real deadshit.

  190. boy on a bike

    new forum is open.

  191. Mk50 of Brisbane

    SteveC:

    The concept that more guns would mean less gun deaths is pretty bizarre.

    Bwahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaaaa…..

    Oh, my aching sides.

    That’s because you are convinced that everyone outside your lefty-circlejerk is less than a primitive savage, that everyone but you and your lefty mates are insensate beasts ruled solely by primal lusts, with none of your sophistication, nuance, and superior moral standing.

    This statement by you proves that you are an arrogant ass, a patronising smug fool without much contact with real life.

    An armed society is a polite and civil society where it is not an honour society but a society with honour.

    There’s only a couple of thousand years of history to show this. Guess you missed it.

    What’s bizarre is your cognitive dissonance in this regard.

  192. SteveC

    No, less violent crime and murders, with and without guns. That is the assertion, which the data backs up.

    Which data?
    Country, guns per capita, gun homicides per 100k, total homicides per 100k
    USA, .88, 2.98, 4.6
    UK, .07, .03, 1.2
    AUS, .15, 0.1, 1.2

    That more guns, less homicides is working really well for the USA.

    Port Arthur skewed the sample. The trend was going down anyway.

    Really?
    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_gun_homicide
    How about you try going through the data more carefully?

  193. John Mc

    The concept that more guns would mean less gun deaths is pretty bizarre.

    Probably more accurate to say more guns means less homicides as well as (quite significantly) less person and property crimes.

    I would say the evidence says more guns will give you more gun deaths, particularly when you throw in suicides, then accidents for good measure. That doesn’t mean more murder per se.

    I would say that if a significant effort was made to disarm the law abiding population in the US (hypothetically, if it could be done), the nature of the US with the diversity of people and wealth, the large immigrant population and open borders, the drugs, the war on drugs, the financial crisis, the size of the world’s third largest population, the culture of freedom and individualism, etc the level of crime and social dislocation would be incredible. I would say murder rates of at least 15 per 100K, with places like DC and Chicago being over 40 per 100K. In other words, in line with places like Honduras, Columbia or South Africa.

  194. Tom

    Why does the left hate science and reason?

    Science and reason create civilisation built on success and wealth. The left is made up of people who hate civilisation and everything it has created, including success and wealth and the happiness they bring, mainly because leftists, being losers and malcontents, hate themselves. And those who roll up here to cheer their government wreckers of wealth and success are the dregs of the left.

  195. SteveC

    Mk50, the suggestion many times above was to arm teachers in the USA. You then pointed out that a samll number of Israeli teachers are armed, and they are all trained in weapons use. So if you suggest the USA copy the Israel example, then I guess you are in fact suggesting they train all their tecahers in military weapons use for two years, and then give a small number (where the security requires it?) guns.
    Do you really think that would work?

  196. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Now, stevie, take out the black community’s figures and see what happens.

  197. SteveC

    Mk50, when your sides recover, perhaps you could check the data and find something to back up your assertion that more guns means less violence, other than the romantic twaddle you seem to have cut and pasted from your clearly dismal history phd thesis.
    (Was that you in the Monty Python witch sketch?)

  198. Gab

    That more guns, less homicides is working really well for the USA.

    Yes it seems to be.

    1994: Aggravated assault by firearm 243,286 (FBI, pdf)

    2011: Aggravated assault by firearm 128,793 (FBI)

    Gun ownership has increased since 1994.

  199. SteveC

    Brilliant mk50, remove all the blacks from USA, and problem solved!! Why did nobody think of that before?

  200. John Mc

    Country, guns per capita, gun homicides per 100k, total homicides per 100k

    Try adding Switzerland, Finland and Sweden to that list off the top of my head. If you want to get adventurous you could look to somewhere like Serbia or maybe some of the Gulf countries with some time on Wikipedia. There is no correlation between total homicides and gun ownership rates per se, you must look at other factors.

    I reckon someone needs to graph gun ownership with wealth and living standards; I’m sure there would be a correlation. Name a great country that has banned gun ownership (the UK doesn’t count as it’s not even in the top 20 of living standards according to UNHDI)?

  201. SteveC

    Probably more accurate to say more guns means less homicides as well as (quite significantly) less person and property crimes.

    John Mc, the site I linked shows that 2/3 of all homicides in USA are gun homicides (10,000/15,000)

  202. Infidel tiger

    The great thing about law abiding citizens being alowed guns is that lots of criminals will be killed. Naturally this will increase the rate of gun deaths – in a really good way.

    My God, lefties really hate science.

  203. Carpe Jugulum

    The last state ALP were filthy

    Pick a state troops, any state. Only the level of cronyism and corruptioon differs.

  204. John Mc

    John Mc, the site I linked shows that 2/3 of all homicides in USA are gun homicides (10,000/15,000)

    2/3? Check your maths there, mate.

  205. blogstrop

    Oh, he meant statistical numbers, not the guy who he most resembles.

  206. Mk50 of Brisbane

    SteveC, what I have suggested is that they assess the threat and then employ measures in accordance with their threat assessments.

    Some school districts in Texas do indeed arm teachers. private ones and most Jewish schools employ armed security guards and heavy physical security.

    Assess the threat, take realism-based preventative security and security-response measures to deal with it.

    The newtown school apparerently took minor physical and procedural preventative security precautions. The terrible mistake thay seem to have made was to take NO preventative response precautions of any kind, but to rely on the magical thinking of declaring the place a ‘no-gun zone’. IF that is true (and I cannot confirm this yet), then all they did was advertise that the school had no defence.

    Look at the massacres in the US and elsewhere (Beslan…)over the past few years. All of them occurred in known places of mass gathering (lots of victims) which were either publicly declared to be defenceless (US gun-free zones) or known to be so by target reconnaissance (Beslan).

    Advertising defencelessness is NOT a good security practise in any way. It attracts, it does not deter.

  207. blogstrop

    SteveC, as a climate alarmist, your expertise with numbers and modelling are of no consequence in any argument. You remain a waste of space.

  208. Tom

    JC, hanging out for a 100-word travelogue.

  209. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Brilliant mk50, remove all the blacks from USA, and problem solved!! Why did nobody think of that before?

    Unlike you, I am not a racist, which the above appalling statement shows you to be. Why is it that you lefties always want to get rid of the non-whites?

    “See [the FBI site] for a race-based breakdown of US crime. Essentially, the welfare-ruined black community in that country is responsible for vastly disproportionate amount of the crime, and especially the serious crime.

    Blacks are only 13.1% of the US population … but are responsible for 48.7% of the murders, 31.8% of the rapes, and 55% of the robberies.

    So much for Johnson’s ‘Great Society’ claptrap.”

  210. ella

    I have problems with the idea put forward that we should put “at risk” individuals on antipsychotics let alone the recent new category for “at risk of psychosis” in the DSM.”

    I agree. However, I was not talking about those suffering from depression where cognitive therapy can be of help.

    Risperidone should not be used for a person suffering from depression.

  211. John Mc

    I can’t wait all night Steve. The figures I use as an average over the last few years are:

    Around 10,000 gun murders in US p.a.
    Around 22,000 homicides in US p.a.

    i.e. just under half are gun homicides.

    For the record, around 32,000 gun deaths in the US each year, which are:
    Around 10,000 gun murders as per above
    Around 20,000 suicides
    Around 2,000 accidents, mistaken law enforcement shootings, justifiable homicides

  212. Septimus

    Catallaxian friends, a conundrum for your consideration.

    Those of you who watch ABC News Breakfast will surely have observed the way Michael Rowlands constantly jiggles around while speaking to the camera. Perhaps you are as intrigued as I am as to what might be the cause of all his dancing about. Some possible explanations might be that he:

    - has a bladder problem and is constantly trying to defer the need to go and balance the electrolytes.

    - is actually Chubby Checker twisting the morning away to maintain his svelte figure.

    - has worms.

    - is in a state of nervous agitation about whether he is in fact Virginia Trioli (given that she has been shown live on camera professing to be Michael Rowlands) and whether his/her alter ego will be returning soon to replace him/her on ABC Breakfast.

    Is anyone able to shed light on this most mystifying phenomenon?

  213. Carpe Jugulum

    Is anyone able to shed light on this most mystifying phenomenon?

    Necator Americanus obviously.

  214. Dead Soul

    There is no correlation between total homicides and gun ownership rates per se, you must look at other factors.

    Yes, finally this important point emerges. The problem is not guns it is the culture of guns and ammo. Arming teachers is an admission of defeat, that we have no solutions to societal violence except to introduce more weapons. Echoes of MAD there. We need to find better solutions than arming teachers if only because arming people also means you have to train them, keep all those weapons safe, make sure those weapons are not stolen, and be sure those with the weapons don’t go postal themselves. Arming teachers is a statist solution though it might have the unintended consequence that a teacher carrying a firearm only has to look like he\she is getting pissed off to make the students calm down. Why should teachers be forced to carry weapons because of a culture that is creating so many sick puppies?

    An armed teacher is also the first one that is going to be shot. Then the shooter has the classroom all to himself. So then, what shall we do, also provide bullet proof vests, place the teacher in a pope mobile like contraption?

    I don’t like weapons control but if people are that bloody careless with weapons what are you gonna do? The fault in this particular case lies with the teacher who let her son get hold of the weapons. This casual attitude to guns, leaving these things lying around, that suggests a culture with a too casual an attitude to weapons. But to be fair, if you have guns in your house and teenagers chances are those teenagers are going to find a way to get hold of those guns. One axe, 10 secs latter that cabinet is smashed and its time to do some killing. Too easy.

  215. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Piles?

    Had a hot date with Bob Brown?

    A combination of the above?

    Has a chronic case of St Vitus’ Dance?

    Fleas?

    Actually, I’m betting on fleas.

  216. Mk50 of Brisbane

    That’d be one hell of an axe, and a seriously busy 10 seconds, DS!

    Seriously, d’ye really think we leave our firearms lying about?

  217. Carpe Jugulum

    Had a hot date with Bob Brown?

    AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahah

    Champagne Comedy *wipes tears of mirth*

    aaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha

  218. .

    No Steve C I will not review the data.

    You have lied, you dishonest fuckhead.

  219. SteveC

    Of course you won’t review the data dot, because it doesn’t agree with your stupid assertion. So here is the data again. And the source.

    Country, guns per capita, gun homicides per 100k, total homicides per 100k
    USA, .88, 2.98, 4.6
    UK, .07, .03, 1.2
    AUS, .15, 0.1, 1.2

    Gun death trend in Aus – compare before and after 1997 (excluding Port Arthur makes your “trend argument” even more obtuse).

    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_gun_homicide

  220. johanna

    Carpe, if you think that a tired variation of an ancient joke about anal sex is ‘champagne comedy’, there is an RSL club missing your attendance – and no doubt cheap Asti Spumante (aka ‘Spew’) is just as good as champagne.

    There are times when this blog sounds like a 1960s footy changeroom, but not as witty.

  221. John Mc

    Steve, the long term trend in that graph looks pretty consistent back to 1988. I believe a mathematical analysis a couple of years back also confirmed that trend well before 1988.

    1996 looks like a blip, both up and down.
    1988 is also a downward blip, so I’ll assume 1987 was upward.

    Doesn’t that graph work for us more than you?

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