Fiscal cliff explained

[Forwarded to me by my son – origins unknown]

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122 Responses to Fiscal cliff explained

  1. Andrew

    Classic! Great explanation!

  2. Grey

    Lets hope the Tea Party come to their senses and agree to the repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

    Tea Party? Senses? Who the hell am I kidding?

  3. JC

    Greys

    What do you find objectionable about the Tea Party’s view on debt and deficit spending.

    Explain it to us.

  4. Brian of Moorabbin

    Of course this will all go completely over the heads of the resident Leftist Apologista Brigade who, no doubt, will claim some fault in logic behind the post (or that it’s all Tony Abbott’s fault somehow) and demand that more government handouts be given to those who suffered the unexpected increase in effluent levels….

  5. Brian of Moorabbin

    And Grey perfectly proves my point.

  6. Gab

    agree to the repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

    The Republicans tried that about two weeks ago. Obama knocked it back. Try to keep up.

  7. Fisky

    No no they are not the same, as sdfc says. There is never a good time for a surplus. Clinton’s surpluses caused the tech crash and Howard’s were responsible for the GFC. Besides, ‘the credit boom is over’ and that’s why governments must borrow from now until the earth falls into the sun. Governments can just print money if they run out of creditors.

  8. C.L.

    Barack Obama: worst president ever. Worst fiscal bum in world history.

  9. JC

    There is one problem with it Brian. A nation like the US which has the power of the printing press/ fiat currency can literally print the the currency to repay the debt.

    The full faith and credit of the US Treasury only applies in that they promise to repay with currency, not the face value on the day of issuance.

    Last time someone came calling to be repaid in gold they broke the gold link… Nixon did that to the frogs.

    Full faith and credit has its limits.

  10. Fisky

    That is what you believe as an MMTer right sdfc? Surpluses cause recessions and stuff.

  11. Tintarella di Luna

    Steve I think that last figure on the homely calculation should be $385.00 but hey what’s a zero in the scheme of things?

    Love lesson two and of course Obummer has raised the ceiling a few times now hasn’t he?

  12. Andrew

    No no they are not the same, as sdfc says. There is never a good time for a surplus. Clinton’s surpluses caused the tech crash and Howard’s were responsible for the GFC. Besides, ‘the credit boom is over’ and that’s why governments must borrow from now until the earth falls into the sun. Governments can just print money if they run out of creditors.

    Is that some sort of joke? Holy crap on a cracker!

  13. Chris M

    Pretty sure this is an intentional destruction of their economy by Obamessiah and his jihadi comrades. No hope of fixing this, it’s going to have to be left to break now.

  14. jumpnmcar

    heh, posted that a couple of days ago on the Open Forum from ” Whale Oil Beef Hooked ”
    He’s done one on NZ ( him being a kiwi and all ) HERE

    Can someone do one for Australia please ?
    I need it for next years campaign T-shirts.
    Even better, Howards on the back and Gillards on the front,

  15. Token

    Lets hope the Tea Party come to their senses and agree to the repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

    You do realise that low and middle income earners are going to be hit harder by the end of the Bush cuts than high income people, right?

    The effect of the end of the cuts will be a “less” progressive tax system.

    You really are out of your depth here Grey.

  16. Mk50 of Brisbane

    This is why the election did not matter.

    And did not the wind go out of SfB and Monty’s boastful puffery and vainglory when I said that! it s not matter because the system is now so thoroughly broken that only the collapse will solve it. There is no solution to their fiscal disaster that does not cause the near-destruction of the middle class and the embeggarment of the lower middle class and lower two-thirds of the working class. The poor (especially the welfare-wrecked black urban state-mendicant poor lacking any viable skills, family support etc and who’s only response for two generations now has been welfare mendicancy in dystopian inner cities – they are doomed. They may actually starve and when they revolt the local machines will destroy them.)

    They can only inflate their way out now, and that will destroy the savings of all but the elite and depending on how bad it gets the upper edges of teh middle and working classes. yet, some significant portuions of US society will deal with it effectively – small states with good governance will pull through.

    God help badly governed crap-holes like California, Illinois, hell, anywhere with entrenched Democrat rule though.

    In essence, we are looking at a third ‘revolutionary event cycle’ in US history.

  17. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Oh, and Grey is a cretin

  18. Grey

    “You do realise that low and middle income earners are going to be hit harder by the end of the Bush cuts than high income people, right?”

    Your link does say that, but since the deficit is so large it doesn’t seem unreasonable to return all tax brackets to the level of 2001. What is the point of giving tax breaks if you just make up the difference up by borrowing?

    Actually the best solution would be for Obama to introduce a Carbon Tax.

  19. Andrew

    Actually the best solution would be for Obama to introduce a Carbon Tax.

    I don’t think anyone is going to see this as a legitimate argument but rather a troll attempt. Please grow up.

  20. Sinclair Davidson

    Andrew meet Fisky – a very old friend of the Cat. (Yes – that was a joke. Risky is on fire with that comment.)

  21. Mk50 of Brisbane

    This happens every year.

    Sad leftard spankers, knob-jockeys, cretins, morons and hamster humping buffoons like Grey get all sad that Bolt is on hold, and come here to masturbate in public.

    What sport and amusement they provide as they gambol about!

  22. Steve of Ferny Hills

    I don’t think anyone is going to see this as a legitimate argument but rather a troll attempt. Please grow up

    Nuh. Just one of 50 shades of stupid.

  23. Grey

    http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2012/12/10/121210taco_talk_kolbert

    Not long ago, the Congressional Research Service reported that, over the next decade, a relatively modest carbon tax could cut the projected federal deficit in half.

    Julia to Barrack: Ring Ring, why don’t you give me a call?

  24. Mark

    I thought Iowahawk summed it upped nicely actually in this tweet

    “David Burge [email protected]

    Maybe the election should have been about the Fiscal Cliff. But hey, vaginas.

  25. Andrew

    Andrew meet Fisky – a very old friend of the Cat. (Yes – that was a joke. Risky is on fire with that comment.)

    Oops! That is the second time I have misinterpreted sarcasm on here. I am a bit slow on that front.

  26. Gab

    Andrew meet Fisky

    No you’re lying.

  27. Sinclair Davidson

    Andrew – you said you tweeted me recently. I can’t find it – did you send it to @sincdavidson?

  28. Andrew

    Andrew – you said you tweeted me recently. I can’t find it – did you send it to @sincdavidson?

    It was quite a while ago, don’t worry about it and I post a lot of crap on my twitter account.

  29. Rob

    Nuh. Just one of 50 shades of stupid.

    I think he has got all 50 shades covered, as the US’s competitive advantage now days is cheap energy. There clearly isn’t another government anywhere in the world as dumb as ours, trading 5 minutes of applause from mendicant govts in overseas forums for the country’s economic future.

  30. C.L.

    When it comes to generic analysis of America’s unstoppable decline, it’s not just Wall Street, K Street and Pennsylvania Avenue that provides the headlining cartographic cliche anymore. It’s also Main Street, USA. In fact, it is preponderantly Main Street USA to which blame should be alotted. A vast, electorally telling number of Americans are dumb, fat, entitled, irreligious, post-civilisational slobs and – yes – they went for vaginas over fiscal catastrophe. Of course they did.

  31. 2dogs

    “Maybe the election should have been about the Fiscal Cliff.”

    Everyone assumed that the election would resolve it one way or the other – few were tipping that the partisan congress/white house impasse would continue, even if they disagreed as to which party would win.

  32. WhaleHunt Fun

    So when the US falls into anarchy, who will intervene to keep their nuclear arsenal out of the hands of arms traders and opportunists happy to sell the stuff?

  33. Pickles

    Seriously what’s going to happen to the daily lives of the average Australian when this happens? What are the predictions?

  34. DaveF

    WhaleHuntFund: same people who sorted the Sov Republics from keeping their nukes.

  35. m0nty

    In essence, we are looking at a third ‘revolutionary event cycle’ in US history.

    LOL, Mk50 thinks the American South is going to go Adam Lanza on the North. Tell us more, O great Hari Seldon, of your theoretical future. Will the union split in twain once again? And who will play Scarlett O’Hara?

  36. Louis Hissink

    Isn’t that Quiggin Economics ?

  37. Infidel Tiger

    going to go Adam Lanza

    Hang your head in shame. That’s a disgusting turn of phrase.

  38. Chris

    Why did they (Republican congress presumably?) legislate the Bush tax cuts to expire in the first place? Was it because the long term cost made them look unaffordable?

  39. Gab

    Didn’t the Bush tax cuts expire in 2010? Why did Obama extend them for two years?

  40. C.L.

    So when the US falls into anarchy, who will intervene to keep their nuclear arsenal out of the hands of arms traders and opportunists happy to sell the stuff?

    Joe Biden.

  41. m0nty

    Didn’t the Bush tax cuts expire in 2010? Why did Obama extend them for two years?

    If you read Noel Pearson on the weekend, Obama played the GOP like a guitar.

    At the time, the conventional view from Right and Left was that the Republicans had won.

    I was more impressed with the analysis of conservative commentator Charles Krauthammer in The Washington Post, who called Obama’s deal with the Republicans the “swindle of the year”.

    Pearson’s thesis is that Clinton advised Obama on how to fool the GOP House leadership into setting up the cliff, and the plan worked, producing the current situation where Boehner is between a rock and a hard place.

  42. Skuter

    Thank god Tom Switzer finally wrote this article.
    Leftist hypocrisy. I am utterly bewildered and shocked…

  43. Steve of Glasshouse

    Skuter at 7.21..” Thank god Tom Switzer finally wrote this article.
    Leftist hypocrisy. I am utterly bewildered and shocked…”

    Bewildered and shocked is OK. You can recover from that. A fair whack of the left have been pithed ; forever stuck in lumbering drooling outrage..

  44. jumpnmcar

    A vid of Pierre Poilievre in Canadian Parliament back in April explaining why Canada is less socialist and has no fiscal cliff.
    I don’t know if he’s correct on all points but I found it informative.
    ( 10 minutes )

  45. Dan

    A vast, electorally telling number of Americans are dumb, fat, entitled, irreligious, post-civilisational slobs and – yes – they went for vaginas over fiscal catastrophe. Of course they did.

    “Modern Americans behave as if intelligence were some sort of hideous deformity. Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our
    mediocre educational system. Forget about the Senior Prom and
    go to the library and educate yourself if you’ve got any guts.
    Some of you like pep rallies and plastic robots who tell you what
    to read. Forget I mentioned it… Rise for the flag salute.”

    ? Frank Zappa

  46. jumpnmcar

    I seem to have saved it in the middle, please refresh to the start.

  47. Alice

    While ever the republicans fail utterly and dismally to do any thing about defence they are going to look mean and ugly to a lot of people with their wanting cuts everywhere else in the budget.

    Even if they returned to pre Iraq levels of military spending there would be an instant 250bill payback of debt.

    Its so obvious the US republicans are being bloody minded and want to foist all the cuts on MK50s “mendicant obese welfare recipients” or CLs “dumb, fat, entitled, irreligious” mainstreeters.
    (nasty – both of you)

    No mention that there is now an admiral for every ship in the US navy. Thats a pretty bloated admiralty towing huge taxpayer funded entitlements in anyone’s view.

    Even some conservatives are speaking out about this and so they should. Its objectionable.

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2012/10/the_republican_party_and_the_d040408.php

  48. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Monty:

    LOL, Mk50 thinks the American South is going to go Adam Lanza on the North.

    Aside from the typically vile, infantile, immature and peurile turn of phrase – only a dullard could read that into the current US crisis of governance.

    Tell us more, O great Hari Seldon, of your theoretical future.

    What future, you pathetic ignoramus? Oh, you mean the present, where the US government is so dysfunctional that it has been unable to pass a budget in what, four years now? Where debt is far beyond solution even if they had the will to bring it under control? Where the ‘free press’ has been captured by a political ideology… I could go on but it is obvious that even the bare existence of the ongoing crisis of governance in the USA is an unfathomable and complete mystery to you. Also unfathomable to you is why this is a revolutionary event (hint for Monty the Cat’s pet imbecile – a ‘revolutionary event’ does not mean a ‘revolt’: the creation of national electrical grids was a revolutionary event. The word has varying meanings).

    As for consequences – who knows? The best outcome would be a return to their own constitution and a radical reduction in centralised government down to 2-5% of its current scale.

    [chortle] That’s out Monty, intellect as deep as dog-piss forming a puddle in a carpark.

    never change, Monty, you are splendid amusement for a fine morning. Now, I must cook the mudcrabs for breakfast.

  49. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Aah, MAlice the military soopa-geenyus is back.

    MAlice you imbecile, not one ‘fact’ you have stated about the US military is correct.

    Example:

    a useless B1 bomber that is never used and never going to fly

    On 26 February 2012 the B1 Lancer achieved the type’s 10,000th combat sortie. The first was 16 December 1998.

    You missed ten thousand combat sorties over fourteen years?

    Hey, let me guess, as well as a drunken imbecile, you are a leftard!

    Sobered up yet from last night’s binge, MAlice?

  50. Token

    There is a 10 year limit on tax cuts coz the grand old Democrat & KKK grand dragon Robert Bird forced a rule change in the 80’s to make sure all permanent tax cuts must be passed by a fillabuster proof majority in the US Senate.

    Yes, the tax increase on low and middle class Americans is due to the petty political games of the Democrats.

  51. Alice

    MK50

    You are the bogan here and I am not on any binge except the one that points out your own hypocrisy.

    You really are like the ugly American. You are not much help at all to sensible fiscally conservative views.

    You dont fool me. You would rather keep the huge largesse flowing to defence (taxpayer carries the can) while you whinge on and on in the most disgusting way about the “obese mendicant welfare recipients” (who I presume you want to take all the cuts?)

    Notwithstanding that many of these people will not fit your disgusting “obese mendicant welfare recipients” one eyed slanted view, but may be people who may have lost their jobs as a result of production moving to China or as a result of the GFC.

    Have a good look at yourself – the picture of the ugly side of conservatism.

    That country needs some sense on both sides of the political debate, given the gravity of the situation, and it wont come from people like you.

    You are a belligerant fool and should stick to crabbing.

    You are a dumbarse. No other word for it.

  52. Anne

    Alice, welfare recipients don’t pay tax but if they were to wouldn’t THEY want tax cuts!

    As usual you don’t make a lot of sense but your spelling has improved.

    New medication trial?

  53. jumpnmcar

    Swans two cents
    “”Swan urges US not to squib on debt.””

  54. Pickles

    Ugly dumbarse crabbing fool. She knows you ML.

  55. Dave

    Wow, this household doesn’t have a mortgage! I wonder what the figures would look like then….

  56. Speaking of “obese mendicant welfare recipients” , my wife was watching a show about a hospital that specializes in weight reduction for the morbidly obese, who stay in hospital for up to 6 months at a time before being released. Of course, they go back to their diet of 6 chickens for breakfast with 5kgs of chips covered in three bottles of ketchup, only to go back for another few months in hospital.

    Who the hell pays for all this? At a couple of grand per night, I can’t see these non-working people paying for any part of it. Multiply this across the entire US and all the other waste and its not hard to see why they are so screwed.

  57. “Swans two cents”

    Is his opinion really worth as much as that?

  58. jumpnmcar

    “”Is his opinion really worth as much as that?””

    Yes, rounded down.

  59. Alfonso

    Alice has a point, running 11 Carrier battle groups with more to come and the $10,000 contract add on toilet seat of yore makes military suppliers owners of rivers of gold. They will act to protect that revenue. Eisenhower got it.

    But it’s all mere whimsy, the Xerox’s will run until the USD collapses, it’s what the masses require, then nature provides the fix on a plate.

  60. JC

    Alfonso

    Before you go doing cartwheels over the US cutting military spending, spare a thought to what happens to our own spending in this area if they cut deeply. Free riding has been fun.

  61. entropy

    So is all this fiscal cliff stuff a share buying opportunity for large US companies?

  62. JC

    Dunno Ent

    It could as it depends on the effectiveness of the Feds actions going ahead.

    Here’s how I see it. The Fed has said that they will not relent on easing until they have employment at around 6.5%. This means that if they see the tax hikes biting into economic growth they will surely ease even more. That’s a tail wind.

    The cliff is basically a bunch of tax hikes which may dampen growth.

    I don’t mind the cliff actually. It basically means that americans get the big government they voted for but more of the fuckers are going to be paying for it. That’s a good thing in my book because it’s instructive and teaches lessons.

    The cliff if negative, but on balance there is some steam in the US economy to avoid a deep recession.

    On balance stocks with decent balance sheets look fine to me.

    However I think there could be better pickings. The Japanese stock market looks pretty decent to me if you can believe Abe is determined to beat deflation through monetary easing.

  63. Mk50 of Brisbane

    MAlice:

    You are the bogan here and I am not on any binge except the one that points out your own hypocrisy.

    Nice argument! Oh, wait… haven’t got the brains for it, have you. (I’ll tell my Doctoral supervisor the ‘bogan’ bit, the dear old fellow likes such merry japes)

    You really are like the ugly American. You are not much help at all to sensible fiscally conservative views.

    Ugly, yes, and proud of it (ask Pickles, I make him look good and that’s saying something). Hilarious that you apparently think I am American of course, but par for the course for you.

    You dont fool me.

    Why bother, MAlice, you do such a good job of proving yourself the fool no-one else could possibly compete.

    You would rather keep the huge largesse flowing to defence (taxpayer carries the can) while you whinge on and on in the most disgusting way about the “obese mendicant welfare recipients” (who I presume you want to take all the cuts?)

    Any central or Federal Government has two fundamental responsibilities. The first is national defence. The second is foreign affairs management to reinforce the former. Everything else is tertiary at best. A huge % of welfare recipients are like this pommie bludger.

    Notwithstanding that many of these people will not fit your disgusting “obese mendicant welfare recipients” one eyed slanted view, but may be people who may have lost their jobs as a result of production moving to China or as a result of the GFC.

    Who has a problem giving opeople a helping hand when through no fault of their own they have fallen on hard times? I don’t, your side does – you want to exploit them and tie them into welfare slavery for life. This is the left’s default position: ‘slaves are easy to rule and easy to please’.

    Oh, that must also explain the third generation always-vote ALP welfare families in Elizabeth and penrith, the Great GFC of 1950, eh?

    hey, here’s an idea, lay off the turps for a week and use the dosh to go to the states and watch the check out aisles at, say, Walmart Alexandria (on the Richmond Highway). You can pick the working class types, they do have their pride and they stare in undisguised loathing at the vast bulk of the bloated welfare types with two trollies full of chips, processed crud and soft drinks all paid for on an EBT card.

    Have a good look at yourself – the picture of the ugly side of conservatism.

    I keep telling you, I am not a conservative, I am an Imperialist. Obviously, you are a bit too thick to get that.

    That country needs some sense on both sides of the political debate, given the gravity of the situation, and it wont come from people like you.

    Aaah, the final cry of the drunken cretin ‘You must cut the 19% of spending on government’s primary responsibility but leave the 43% of spending devoted to welfare alone!

    hey, thats working so well for Greece right now. And for the eastern half of the Roman Empire too!

    You are a belligerant fool and should stick to crabbing.

    Six nice big muddies and a nice catch of flathead too (lost a nice threadfin, dammit).

    You are a dumbarse. No other word for it.

    Again, nice argument. Now. tell be about why you so, aah, intelligently missed the entire oeprational history of the B1? Perhaps someone told you something about it during the drunken stupor you spent the 1970s in and you have not sobered up enough yet to check it?

  64. Grey

    So – and do correct me if I am misunderstanding you – you would rather bomb other countries than have a functioning public health system?

    BTW, do you have undisclosed interest in taxpayers money flowing in ever increasing quantities to the military and defense industries?

  65. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Alfonso:

    Alice has a point, running 11 Carrier battle groups with more to come

    MAlice is an inbred drunken idiot. CVBG no longer exist except in name. They used to be a CVN, two CGN, two to four CG, two to six destroyers and frigates, two to four SSN, 2-3 replenishment ships and their escorts.

    CVN routinely deploy now with one or two CG and a destroyer or two at best, plus an SSN.

    There are not 11 active carriers, there are ten:

    1. CVN-68 Nimitz 1975 Nimitz-class supercarrier, lead ship Active; Homeport: Naval Station Everett, Everett, Washington
    2. CVN-69 Dwight D. Eisenhower 1977 Nimitz-class supercarrier Active; Homeport: Naval Station Norfolk, Norfolk, Virginia
    3. CVN-70 Carl Vinson 1981 Nimitz-class supercarrier Active; Homeport: Naval Air Station North Island, San Diego, California
    4. CVN-71 Theodore Roosevelt 1986 Nimitz-class supercarrier Active; Homeport: Naval Station Norfolk, Norfolk, Virginia
    5. CVN-72 Abraham Lincoln 1989 Nimitz-class supercarrier Active; Homeport: Naval Station Norfolk, Norfolk, Virginia
    6. CVN-73 George Washington 1992 Nimitz-class supercarrier Active; Homeport: Yokosuka Naval Base, Yokosuka, Japan
    6. CVN-74 John C. Stennis 1995 Nimitz-class supercarrier Active; Homeport: Naval Base Kitsap, Bremerton, Washington
    8. CVN-75 Harry S. Truman 1998 Nimitz-class supercarrier Active; Homeport: Naval Station Norfolk, Norfolk, Virginia
    9. CVN-76 Ronald Reagan 2003 Nimitz-class supercarrier Active; Homeport: Naval Base Kitsap: Bremerton
    10. CVN-77 George H.W. Bush 2009 Nimitz-class supercarrier Active; Homeport: Naval Station Norfolk, Norfolk, Virginia

    Building/planned

    1. CVN-78 Gerald R. Ford 2015[4] Ford-class supercarrier, lead ship Keel laid; Newport News Shipbuilding, Newport News, Virginia
    2. CVN-79 John F. Kennedy ~2020[4] Ford-class supercarrier First steel cut; Newport News Shipbuilding, Newport News, Virginia
    3. CVN-80 Enterprise[3] ~2025[4] Ford-class supercarrier Planned; Newport News Shipbuilding, Newport News, Virginia

    These will replace CVN’s 68, 69 and 70 respectively.

    These are easy, simple facts to ascertain – why do people like MAlice lie about it instead? Oh, that’s right, to fit their narrative.

  66. JC

    The US health care systems functions, Grey you fucking idiot. I experienced it for 15 years. It was perhaps a few leagues better than ours.

    I was saying that if the US cuts too deeply our costs will rise more so than expected which would place a nasty burden on our outstretched budget.

    Your question could only be posed by a fucking idiot troll with lots of time on his hands.

    Fuck off you dishonest waste of space.

  67. garry

    Like the intent of the card, but the maths is suspect. I calculate that if you drop 8 noughts from $38,500,000,000, you will have $385, rather than $38.50. No point in making it easy for lefties and Keynsians’ to ridicule us.

  68. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Reffo from Bolt’s:

    So – and do correct me if I am misunderstanding you – you would rather bomb other countries than have a functioning public health system?

    Notice how the leftard presents this as a ‘gotcha’. somehow in what passes for it’s brain, it believes that only two possible choices exist: indiscriminate atatck like Hamas terrorists, or a functional health system.

    What an idiot.

    For the record, and long on record here, I am a full proponent of the laws of war. Also for the record, I think the Australian model of a means-tested semi-private health system is the best balance there is. ‘Free’ health systems lead to the ghastly outcome of vile monstrosities like teh british NHS, which through incompetence and lack of care (and gargantuan waste) kills 8,000-12,000 victims – sorry patients – a year.

    BTW, do you have undisclosed interest in taxpayers money flowing in ever increasing quantities to the military and defense industries?

    As if that’s relevant, but nope. Got no shares or private financial interest in any military company or defence industry.

    You or MAlice got any personal interest in any welfare service, welfare service provider, company or part of the industry or as an investor in or recipient of public welfare?

  69. Grey

    The US health care systems functions, Grey you fucking idiot. I experienced it for 15 years. It was perhaps a few leagues better than ours.

    You would want it to be, you spend far more money on health than Australians. It is just your health outcomes that are far worse.

  70. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Right. Off to see if the Mangrove jack have turned up in the local creek.

  71. Grey

    You or MAlice got any personal interest in any welfare service, welfare service provider, company or part of the industry or as an investor in or recipient of public welfare?

    I work in public health yes.
    Actually I wasn’t thinking as in shares so much, but you received a wage from the military or defense industries?

  72. JC

    Greys

    Health outcomes are not far worse. You’re wrong and perhaps too innumerate to understand the stats.

    Like every single leftwhiner that comes here you seem to confuse the healthcare delivery with health insurance which are two different things.

    I suggest you either stop talking about shit you don’t understand that you picked up from reading da drum o go through the countless discussions in previous posts and get up to date.

    It was only a little while ago that we had another leftwhiner posing as a libertarian suggesting the US healthcare system is 40th in the world… Lol

    Now fuck off back to the sewer to came from.

    By the way, was it that moron who calls himself political animal who sent you here and runs a blog with the same name (I think)? He seems partially retarded.

  73. JC

    I work in public health yes.

    Janitorial services I presume?

  74. jumpnmcar

    MK50

    Right. Off to see if the Mangrove jack have turned up in the local creek.

    The grunter are on a bit up here, they’er takin pillys over prawn.
    ( can’t get myself to use plastics )

    Sorry folks, carry on.

  75. Rousie

    Grey is a psychologist & Sybil (aka Alice) is his patient.
    They are here as part of her therapy.
    Pure genious Grey.

  76. jumpnmcar

    Janitorial services I presume?

    Donated to the Shagger fund I hope.

  77. Rousie

    I particularly like how you got Sybil to manage her impulses long enough to get her spelling right. Small steps and all.

  78. JC

    Jump

    He’s a French writing janitor. He learns his french from Google translate like the moron was trying to impress us with last evening. Fme we attract some bad ones.

  79. Grey

    Janitorial services I presume?

    What have you libertarians got against cleaners? When the Ayn Rand paradise comes about I will give it 6 months at tops before it succumbs to an outbreak of typhoid from an uncleaned toilet.

    Deaths from Cancer:
    322/100 000 pa US
    299/100 000 pa Australia
    Infant Mortality
    6.81/1000 US
    4.66/1000 Australia
    Life expectancy
    78,2 US
    81.2 Australia

    And so on. However, you do win two important categories:
    Health Spending per capita
    US$ 8362 US
    US$ 4775 Australia
    But most importantly of all, run away winners in:
    Obesity
    30.6% US
    21.7% Australia

  80. JC

    Jan..

    We’ve been through those “stats” before a 100 times and I’m not going to debate them with you unless you go through the back pages of the Cat and then come back with questions which prove you’re read up.

    One example squire…. obesity stats is not a “health outcomes” you hospital toilet cleaning dummy.

    Now fuck off and we’ll see you in a day to three.

  81. Grey

    I though I would include it in case you pointed to the higher rates of lap band surgery performed in the US.
    Probably accounts for as much aa 2000 of the extra dollars per capita spent in America.

  82. JC

    Greys

    Lets go through one example that hits closer to home about what I’m talking about. Lets take M0nster commonly referred to as Fat Boy, who frequently posts irritating troll-like comments here at the Cat. From the public accessed pics of him that one of his friends – DavidJ- linked to, the lardball is perhaps 50 to 70 kilos overweight.

    How is it the fault of the Australian healthcare system that he’s so overweight? It’s not of course and yet, you, you hospital janitor post a stat about comparable obesity rates, which proves you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.

    Now go read up and we’ll see you when we do… several days of cramming.

    No Go!

  83. Gab

    What have you libertarians got against cleaners?

    Only you because you turn off the lights at the start of your night cleaning shift. You’re a danger to society.

  84. Grey

    I am getting the distinct impression that libertarians fail to appreciate the central role that sterilization and infection control professionals play in the provision of modern health services.

    Is this because they are stuck in some 1950s time loop? The world has moved on my friends, the simplistic solutions that probably wouldn’t have worked in the 1950s certainly wouldn’t work today.

    Does anyone have the figures on the number of lap band operations performed in the US? I am having trouble locating them.

  85. m0nty

    Also unfathomable to you is why this is a revolutionary event (hint for Monty the Cat’s pet imbecile – a ‘revolutionary event’ does not mean a ‘revolt’: the creation of national electrical grids was a revolutionary event. The word has varying meanings).

    As for consequences – who knows? The best outcome would be a return to their own constitution and a radical reduction in centralised government down to 2-5% of its current scale.

    Oh I see Mk50, so you’re not talking about a revolution at all. You’re talking about a libertarian singularity, where everything you wish for comes to pass all at once, including rainbow ponies for every true white boy.

    In other words: you’re talking rubbish, as usual.

  86. JC

    Sterilization and infection control? Is this the square root of vertical station frequency that the other leftwhiner idiot introduced into a discussion before he was booted outta here?

    What the fuck are you babbling about, you moron?

    (Now don’t break into some google translate french in reply. One bit of advice when pretending to be a frog language expert when using google translate for pretense. Don’t use every single accent and shit over words, as that’s a dead giveaway you thoroughly pretentious git).

  87. Gab

    Sterilization and infection control?

    I’d like Grey to explain what these have to do with the Obama engineered fiscal cliff, the topic of this thread?

  88. Grey

    I am just surprised at the continual hostility directed towards cleaning staff that I keep encountering here.

  89. JC

    Greys

    Do you apologize for raising comparable obesity rates as part of healthcare delivery outcomes when it’s obvious it has nothing to do with these stats?

    Yes or no?

    Please recall how you applauded someone yesterday for admitting an error.

  90. Grey

    No, we can only understand the enormous drain on US health expenditure for weight reduction surgery by considering this statistic.

  91. Alfonso

    JC….indeed, a vastly contracted military isolationist US due to being broke means Aust will have to nuc up, heads exploding among comrades everywhere.
    50….my bad, it was from memory, and you are correct of course, 10 carrier battle groups instead of 11 certainly changes the whole point….bwaaaa…..early drinkees?

  92. Sinclair Davidson

    Grey – not cleaning staff, just you.

  93. candy

    Infection control and sterilisation are very important eg. preventing Staph in hospitals, I think Grey does more than clean the facilities …

  94. C.L.

    Grey, how do you feel about Labor politicians stealing your money for prostitutes?

  95. Grey

    I could be a registrar, I could be a nurse, I could be a paramedic, I could be a janitor – what difference does it make?

  96. candy

    “…how do you feel about Labor politicians stealing your money for prostitutes”

    as long as it’s been put through the autoclave first the labor pollies don’t mind!

  97. Sinclair Davidson

    You could be … but I reckon you might be a nurse, in Bendigo.

  98. Jarrah

    Despite Alice’s focus on war spending (which does need to be cut), suicidally eliminating every single bit of it would only save $930 billion, or about three months of federal government spending.

    On the other hand, doing away with all the non-defense discretionary spending saves even less, something over $700 billion.

    The two giants in the room are the main components of mandatory spending – Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security. They will reach titanic size over the coming years as demographic factors kick in (and if medical prices keep rising so fast). Assuming the US just abandoned these programs and the rest of the mandatory spending, that would save ~$2.2 trillion now and much more in the future.

    What if spending stayed the same, and leftists got their dream of just taxing more? Firstly, remember that despite all the different taxation regimes the US has tried since WW2, federal revenue has oscillated between 15% and 20% of GDP, averaging below 18%. So getting it higher isn’t just a matter of having higher marginal rates. Regardless, let’s assume it’s possible, and while we’re making heroic assumptions, that none of the obvious consequences affect the flow of revenue – what tax rates would be necessary?

    If they only change federal income tax rates, they would have to go up about 147%! Less insane plans that incorporate all forms of revenue would still have to increase their take by about 60%. And that’s before the job-killing, growth-killing effects are taken into account, which will mean less revenue coming in, making the measures self-defeating to a certain extent.

    It’s not a simple problem that the US faces. Certain commentators who predict political gridlock and financial disaster may be right. I expect no grand bargains or comprehensive reforms, but more of the same – the US muddling through and things getting slowly worse.

  99. Grey

    Grey, how do you feel about Labor politicians stealing your money for prostitut

    The Jacksons are only wanna-be politicians.

  100. C.L.

    So you’re OK with Labor parliamentarians stealing your money for prostitutes.

    Thanks.

  101. Grey

    You could be … but I reckon you might be a nurse in Bendigo.

    Whoosh, over my head.
    Although I am a big admirer of Zena Coffey
    http://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2011/article/bendigo-honours-student-wins-national-nursing-award

  102. Gab

    So you’re OK with Labor parliamentarians stealing your money for prostitutes.

    For all we know he may have aided and abetted the Shagger.

  103. Grey

    For all we know he may have aided and abetted the Shagger.

    Its true, I did assist in the photoshopping of the credit-card statements. Now I feel tortured with remorse and I am looking for an honest News Ltd reporter to unburden my conscience.

    An honest News Ltd reporter – know ye of such a fabulous beast?

  104. Mk50 of Brisbane

    jumpnmcar, lots of baitfish in the creek, lots of small bream, a few small jacks but nothing of any size. Unusually, there were a lot of juvenile garfish. Good to see the creek doing its job though, very healty nursery system there.

    Now to get the boat sorted for when the wind dies off (too strong to get out on the bay comfortably and safely with sons + their girlfriends aboard). Maybe tomorrow….

  105. jumpnmcar

    Mk50, yeah blowing up here too. Lots of prawns up here ( Mackay ),
    still a bit small and late just like the wet season.
    Mud crabs still going strong.
    Plenty of untargeted (wink wink) Barra.
    The creeks are as healthy as I’ve seen them in 20 years despite the added traffic.
    Even got a turtle in a crab pot last week, even my old Dads eye nearly popped out of his head.

  106. Alice

    Jarrah

    You say

    Despite Alice’s focus on war spending (which does need to be cut), suicidally eliminating every single bit of it…”

    I didnt suggest suicidally eliminating every little bit of defence spending but like you I agree it does have to be cut. If you are looking for government waste trying to sort this deficit out you have a responsibility to look everywhere, not just selectively at some components of the budget.

    Now can anyone tell me how much of the social security fund have the US taxpayers already contributed to? Isnt that double taxation?

    According to this article

    ” The Social Security Trust Fund was established in 1937 to manage the income collected from these taxes so they could be redistributed as Social Security Income. Since then, the Trust Fund has collected $8.7 trillion, but only paid out $7.4 trillion in benefits. That’s mainly because of America’s demographics — there’s been more workers to pay the taxes than retired people to receive Social Security. It’s also been because of tax hikes and adjustments to benefits. In 1977, the payroll tax rate was raised from 6.45% to the current 7.65%. As a result, the Trust Fund has held a surplus.”

    Why does this need to be cut when its normal balance is a surplus? and it was only 2010 that it did not cover payments but still retained a surplus due to interest on bonds it owned.

    Given that this article says its surplus wont be depleted until 2036 I dont know why the obession with it here.

    http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/Soc_Sec_Trust.htm

  107. Alice

    Oh and MK50

    Neither myself or my family has ever had an interest in any welfare provider or benefit or whatever. I missed the baby bonus which you lot got. My son pays hecs. My husband and i pay our taxes every year on time.
    Once I considered benefits when I came back from england after a working holiday flat stony broke and with no car and went and visited my local office to tide me over till I got a job. Fortunately in those days they did the right thing. The office found me a job miles away in a stinking fish factory (I dont think you would have objected to that MK50 based on above posts) but I did and declined and got my own job. In those days the CES (Commonwealth employment service) advertised jobs on boards in their office ie they actually ran a helpful service and tried to help find people jobs. Now its “go pay to see a private jobs provider like Mission Australia who hit the enmployed up for training costs and recycle them to get more government subsidies for each person they “place” and that in itself is another BS story (too long).

    I work hard, pay my taxes and my bills on time and try never to “a borrower or a lender be” unless I can afford to pay back interest at twice the market rate out of my own income. Fiscally conservative to the core MK50 but my conservatism doesnt extend to wanting tax cuts just for myself at the cost of all government services.

  108. Alice

    MK50

    You said it yourself.
    “Any central or Federal Government has two fundamental responsibilities. The first is national defence. The second is foreign affairs management to reinforce the former. Everything else is tertiary at best.”

    I totally disagree. Any central or Federal Government has a main fundamental responsibility to ensure the economic health of its nation and has further responsibilities to ensure the prevention of fraud, rule by tyrants and theft of taxpayers funds.

    The rest you describe, whislt national security, and donestic security for its citizens, ranks alongside the maintenance of the framework for a healthy economy,

    You need the funds to pay for that security and that flows from a healthy economy and you cant keep spending like drunken sailors on defence when the people can no longer afford it. Rome id that and I daresay its army ripped off the spoils of war at every given turn with its supply lines stretched so far from home (do you see the similarities??? – some of these wars initiated by the US have not even been warranted).

    You calculate the risks and pay for the level of security you can afford. You dont let the armchair generals in the republican party ranks continue their often private parties by whipping up fear in the nation, or the republican voters ranks, at the nations taxpayers expense.

    The budget is not a private party for some.

    That, my friend is unsustainable foolishness.

  109. Jarrah

    “I didnt suggest suicidally eliminating every little bit of defence spending”

    Didn’t mean to suggest you had. I was just demonstrating that even the most extreme case – wholesale abolishment of the DoD and related spending – wouldn’t be enough, and therefore concentrating too much on just that part of the ledger was pointless. I agree that everything has to be looked at.

    “Any central or Federal Government has a main fundamental responsibility to ensure the economic health of its nation and has further responsibilities to ensure the prevention of fraud, rule by tyrants and theft of taxpayers funds.”

    Sorry, Alice, but Mk50 is right this time. The primary reason why people enter into social arrangements is protection. Protection from outside threats – military. Protection from each other – police, courts, and the myriad institutions that protect our various rights. An arrangement that can’t achieve that first priority can’t do anything else. It’s fundamental.

  110. Mk50 of Brisbane

    jumpnmcar

    Big problem here is mudcrab thieves. You just can’t leave pots out. The whole lot will go. Was out last night (just on the shore fishing the top – hence flatties) and had put two pots into the creek mouth. Saw a tinnie heading in, so headed towards the pots. Sure enough, they spotted them and stopped, started to pull them up.

    You should have heard them squeak when another bloke there yelled out from 20 feet away. ‘I’ve got my 243 here boys, who d’you want me to shoot first?’

    he did not have a rifle, no-one did of course, but there’s persistent rumours of pot thieves being shot at on the bay, and as this old bloke said you might as well make good use of rumours! We had a good chuckle about it as these thieving sods zipped away.

    Nugget’s forum gets red hot on the subject every year. There’s big dollars in it. Local yarn here (not vouching for it, before my time but the volunteer coasties swear it’s true) is that one ***** caught a few years back (dole bludger of course) was clearing thousands a week in cash raiding pots and selling the crabs at teh clubs. The story goes that the dole bludger was ‘absolutely unable to work’ (on disability pension) due to a buggered back. Of course, 8 hours a night in a tinnie pulling other people’s pots apparently does not count, or need a back at all!

    Just been working on the boat and about to get back to it. Frigging steering’s seized, the grease has changed to a brown crumbly gunk. Got it unseized with WD40 and an extempore slap-hammer, have to spend some time working it.

  111. Alice

    Jarrah

    Forgive me for saying so (most of what you say I agree with) but no-one can enter into agreements for levels of security they cant afford to pay for. That is fundamental also.

  112. jumpnmcar

    Mk 50
    Pot thieving happens here too but fortunately not that often.
    Zero tolerance and an understanding constabulary.
    It’s a sacking offence among tradies and the grapevine encourages them ( thieves) to go away.
    Some of the stories told at smoko in front of young apprentices has helped drive that culture.
    Thieves are to be spat on.

  113. Alx

    As usual I am late to the party, but I thought that obesity in the states was more related to government meddling in the food supply than any health care factor. Namely, sugar. In the US, this has been mainly through subsidies paid to corn farmers and peddlers of high fructose corn syrup, the addition of which has dumbed down people’s pallettes (desensitizing them to the natural sweetness of food), increased their appetites and contributed to weight gain, diabetes, heart disease etc.

    So, if the cost of obesity and related illness is being borne by the health care system, then it is a direct result of government meddling (in the food supply) rather than being a symptom of the health care system itself. The cost per capita between Aus and the US is therefore not an apples for apples comparison.

    Now, before anyone goes quoting isocalorific studies “disproving” a link, you need to understand that an isocalorific study is useless because it ignores the mechanism for obesity which is an increase in appetite brought about by sugar consumption.

  114. Tracey

    Stuff the economy! Kim Kardashian is up the duff!!
    I wonder what’s more likely to be front page news in the States tomorrow?

  115. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Who the hell is Kim kardashian?

  116. Tracey

    Mk50, she’s one of a long line of vacuous celebrity nothings a large cohort of the US populace seem to be obsessed with. Ridiculous I know, but my question was serious. I fear to most of the free-phoners this news will be of much greater interest and importance than what is happening to their country’s economy.

  117. Warwick Hughes

    You could add to the list QE3 money printing at $85Bn per month or $1,020,000,000,000 PA –
    or $10,200 per year – if a family could print money.

  118. Mk50 of Brisbane

    Tracey – thanks. One of the progeny summed it up thusly:

    ‘Dad, think no-talent ninth rate white slut bangs third rate black petty criminal turned muso to get hooks into his cash. The only ring involved will be the respective rings of lawyers skinning him for dollars for the next eighteen years. he’s already called her a ‘baby momma’ which is ebonics for casual shag who I got up the duff – most are found in welfare lines.’

    Perspicacious individual, is child #last.

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