So what does happen when you tax the rich as Marxist, and former ATO official, John Passant suggests?
The rich move. First they might try to move their money and failing that they move themselves..
It was the sort of below-the-belt blow Francois Hollande could have done without. Still reeling from a series of political thumps at home and abroad, the right hook delivered by Russian leader Vladimir Putin on Thursday gave the French president his first bloody nose of 2013.
The Kremlin’s announcement that Putin had signed official papers granting Russian citizenship to French national hero Gerard “Gege” Depardieu hit home.
…
Enraged at having his decision to leave France for fiscal exile in neighbouring Belgium described by French prime minister Jean-Marc Ayrault as “shabby”, Depardieu, star of the Hollywood film Green Card, had turned bellicose, threatening to give up his French passport.And there, given that France’s civil code requires a citizen to have another nationality in order to relinquish being French, the melodrama might have ended, had Putin not joined the fray.
It’s not just the Russians capitalising on the French tax policies,
… and the British prime minister, David Cameron, along with London mayor Boris Johnson, offered to roll out the red carpet to those seeking to pay less tax.
Tax competition at its finest.
Tax competition is exactly why we need to keep states, and return more taxation powers to them, even if the ato keeps collecting it.
brc
4 Jan 13 at 10:03 am
That’s hilarious. The froggies will be spitting cheese.
Mk50 of Brisbane
4 Jan 13 at 10:06 am
I don’t know what France will get first, Sharia law or communism. Probably both.
mundi
4 Jan 13 at 10:07 am
Mundi, I cannot believe I am saying this but I am actually hoping for communism in France. Full-fledged, unabashed Stalinist style communism. That way, the islamists would all go to the slave-labour and death camps, and French culture and civic monuments would survive.
We could probably still visit, too, for less risk than you’d have visiting a festering muslim crap-hole where France used to be.
Their choices are now between the worst possible outcome (communism) and extinction as sharia law will terminate France culturally and linguistically. No other outcomes now seem possible. The rot has gone too far now.
Mk50 of Brisbane
4 Jan 13 at 10:24 am
The problem with (over) taxing the rich is that i aspire, one day, to be richer than now as most people do. It is easy to sit from the bottom rung looking up saying “tax more tax more tax more” but don’t you aspire to move up these “rungs of opportunitiy” (no apologies to Latham).
Lysander Spooner
4 Jan 13 at 10:49 am
They don’t really mind Depardieu heading off – they don’t much like his money heading off.
Expect much workshopping in Paris and Brussels as to how they grab the dosh off fleeing tax exiles under existing EU border policies.
Probably won’t really work until the next Treaty change, when they go for an integrated EU government with a common budget. Then they just need border posts to seize exile wealth as they flee the Greater EU.
Myrrdin Seren
4 Jan 13 at 11:24 am
Myrrdin Seren, actually Gerard’s upraised finger was a huge blow. He is a genuine national treasure in France – loved and revered by a big chunk of the populace. Since, IMO, he is one of the greatest actors of his time (in the top 5) and uncompromisingly French, this is not surprising.
He also spelled out in his resignation letter how much tax he had paid during his career. I don’t have it at hand, but it was many millions of euros over a long period. He could have defected to the Bahamas anytime and paid bugger-all, but he didn’t.
Putin is a prick, but a very smart one. A good week for him – he pulled out of Kyoto and welcomed Gerard. We can only dream of having someone as smart running this country.
johanna
4 Jan 13 at 11:57 am
Putin gave him Russian citizenship… I gotta laugh.
What a smack in the face to Hollande.
Good.
Putin is still a douchebag though.
JC
4 Jan 13 at 12:05 pm
Regret lack of clarity johanna.
The Socialist government and at least a few of Depardieu’s acting freres of the Left are miffed about his money going elsewhere. naturalmente.
And as for the French public – I accept the remorse and public confusion, but they voted for this lot, and they can take it up with the Socialists at the ballot box.
Myrrdin Seren
4 Jan 13 at 12:05 pm
You know, out of all the countries in the EU the one that worries me the most these days is France…. leaving greece aside.
Hollande has basically inroduced policies that reduce growth and the budget deficit and debt is not in any good shape at all.
The Frogs are in total denial.
JC
4 Jan 13 at 12:08 pm
American Expat Taxpayers Would Rather Ditch Citizenship Than Face New IRS Rules
Obama’s really cracking down and making life difficult for expats, too: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444592704578062570295543436.html
sdog
4 Jan 13 at 12:11 pm
MS, you are right of course.
The Hollande government is plunging in the polls, and while it is too late to get rid of them, hopefully public pressure will at least curb some of the future debacles they probably have in mind.
johanna
4 Jan 13 at 12:25 pm
Johanna
Hollande may be plunging in the polls, that means stuff all in Frogland.
There’s absolutely no way the Frogs would vote for anyone that suggested the reforms they need.
So even if say Hollande gets booted next time round, the the right candidate will not be changing anything.
they need a serious crisis.
JC
4 Jan 13 at 12:36 pm
‘fraid I am with JC on this.
I don’t see the voters in all sorts of constituencies not voting themselves more empty short term promises any time soon.
Somewhere or another there will be a trainwreck and it won’t be pretty – see Greece for a modest taste.
I hope I am wrong for my kid’s sake.
Myrrdin Seren
4 Jan 13 at 12:41 pm
kids’ ( plural )
for clarification
Myrrdin Seren
4 Jan 13 at 12:42 pm
Depardieu also said he was bitter at the sentence given in France to his son for possession of (a small amount of?) heroin, when (from memory) ‘others got softer sentences for worse’.
But yes, George Harrison first brought this to our attention with his ‘Taxman’ – about working class folk who find themselves absurdly taxed when they achieve success. We saw all the rock stars head to the USA in the 70s, for that reason and others.
Putin, utterly ruthless and amoral, is the kind of leader who created ancient empires. If modern liberalism can’t beat him it will just be a return to the default position in the history of civilization (yay Oswald Spengler! [not that pyjama fellow]).
one old bruce
4 Jan 13 at 12:49 pm
Bruce, Putin is, as you say, utterly amoral and ruthless. But his sheer brilliance makes the leaders of our failing Western cultures look like the pathetic, gutless pygmies that they are.
I agree with previous posters who say that the French brought it on themselves, and will resist any attempt to wean them from the largesse of the State. But I can’t help liking a lot of things about them as well – their refusal to play ball with other countries if they didn’t feel like it, many aspects of their lifestyle and culture, and their language, which is superb and definitely preferable to German or Bulgarian. As is their food and wine.
They are a nation of drama queens (like the Italians), so no doubt there will be plenty of drama to come.
johanna
4 Jan 13 at 1:12 pm
Just want to add, I just read that Russia has a 13% flat income tax rate.
Presumably, there are other, ahem, costs for doing business, but it is an interesting experiment.
About 15 years ago, someone whose views on business and economics I respect told me, after visiting Russia, that the place was a total basket case. I wonder if that is still true?
johanna
4 Jan 13 at 2:03 pm
No, Johanna, it is not. Oh, they have serious problems and are in a demographic death spiral, but funding’s not an issue. The old tax system was a
dog’sSwan’s breakfast and no-one was paying any tax. Pensioners were starving to death. They junked the lot, brought in flat tax and suddenly the government was awash with funds.Info from a contact in the gas industry who spends half his time there and who says the greatest lesson to learn in Russia and the FSU is this: never, never, never, NEVER drink Kazakh vodka. He also mentioned that in Russia, beer has just been redesignated from a soft drink to an alcoholic drink. So you can’t get it absolutely anywhere any more (including primary school canteens!).
Mk50 of Brisbane
4 Jan 13 at 3:20 pm
Thanks, Mark. I did point out to my informant that South Korea had gone from being dirt poor to being middling in a generation or two, and they didn’t have the advantage of large-scale literacy. Still, in about 1990 he said that everything was falling down, nobody had any money, and there was no trustworthy way of doing business.
As for the Kazakh vodka, are you by any chance the local agent?
johanna
4 Jan 13 at 4:57 pm
Taki mag article on this…
http://takimag.com/article/the_depardieu_revolution#axzz2Gwts6Tv7
Abu Chowdah
4 Jan 13 at 6:00 pm
So let the rich move? Will they be missed?
The problem is we are not talking about taxing the rich more here. Rather this is about taxing people with high TAXABLE EARNINGS.
The distinction is by no means a small one. Has any French national named DE ROTHSCHILD taken out Russian citizenship? No I don’t think so. And increasing the income tax rate has got nothing to do with taxing the rich more ……. Or at least very little.
Nick De Cusa
4 Jan 13 at 7:27 pm
This is a truth often not realised until things get very bad indeed.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
4 Jan 13 at 7:44 pm
The real rich have always moved their money and assets around. They have ways and are not easily bled, nor are they so easily detected in their moves.
Not so the poor taxpayer, no matter what the income.
Tax earnings, people pull their head in and don’t earn, and investors don’t invest as much.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
4 Jan 13 at 8:12 pm
Precisely Lizzie. We have to run it a little bit tighter with our definitions here. The rich cannot take ownership of assets with them if we don’t let them. If their assets are the other side of our obligations then we can rescind enforcement of debts when they leave. We ought not be taxing high income earners very much it’s true. But by and large these ought not be grouped in as THE RICH.
Nick De Cusa
4 Jan 13 at 8:50 pm
Overtax the rich = kill capital investment = fuck the economy.
Night-night, Bird.
Abu Chowdah
4 Jan 13 at 11:46 pm
No you want to increase capital formation and have a more egalitarian tax system. But figuring out how to do both is beyond what I could reasonably expect to be able to explain to you. First thing you have to make sure that banks lend for capital formation. Something they don’t do much of now.
Nick De Cusa
5 Jan 13 at 4:36 am
“First thing you have to make sure that banks lend for capital formation. Something they don’t do much of now.”
—————————
Oh, my. Time to take the meds and hit the pit, “Nick.”
johanna
5 Jan 13 at 5:06 am
You ignorant witch. This is merely a statement of fact.
Nick De Cusa
5 Jan 13 at 5:14 am
Try learning economics.
Nick De Cusa
5 Jan 13 at 5:15 am
Have you got an argument against this incontrovertible fact? Or will you just sit there with egg on your face?
Nick De Cusa
5 Jan 13 at 5:19 am
A. R. S. E. H. O. L. E.
Abu Chowdah
5 Jan 13 at 6:12 am
Three drive-by abusive posts in five minutes. See my comment above. Feeling a bit hyper, are we?
As for your ridiculous comment about how banks lend money – well, two points. Firstly, as soon as someone starts to post about how if only banks loaned money the way they think the banks should, the world would be a much better place, we are in irrational territory. Very often, it’s the first glint of tinfoil in the woods.
Secondly, you provide absolutely no evidence for your assertion that banks are not doing what you think they should do. Nor do you provide any evidence as to why they should do it.
Of course, you could always get involved in banking and try to sell them your brilliant ideas.
johanna
5 Jan 13 at 6:44 am
I’ve seen Boris on the French news a couple of times. He speaks a little bit of French, with a heavy British accent. Enough to be understood, and he’s hilarious the way he winds them up. He calls Hollande a government of ‘sans culottes’, then says (to successful Frenchmen) ‘Venez ici. Vous êtes tous bienvenus’ (come ove here you’re all welcome). I think he remains my favorite Western politician
I agree with JC or whoever it was. The French have completely lost the concept of economic liberalism, they’ve been a welfare basket case for so long they’re addicted to it. Gérard’s defection for being very axed was a bit of a wakes call, but they won’t see liberalism as the solution because they’ve forgotten what it means.
Instead, they’ll get pissed off with Hollande’s socialism, as well as the increasing Islamification, but their solution will be to vote in nationalist socialism in the form of Marine LePen or someone even more radical.
My father in law is fairly sensible and has always voted UMP as the least worst of a terrible lot, but the younger in laws have literally switched from the Parti Socialiste to Marine Le Pen last election.
Papachango
5 Jan 13 at 9:19 am
“well, two points. Firstly, as soon as someone starts to post about how if only banks loaned money the way they think the banks should, the world would be a much better place, we are in irrational territory……”
No you are wrong and irrational and obviously so. If the banks lend money for wealth creation we will get richer very quickly. If they lend for flipping houses we won’t. Learn economics you stupid woman.
Nick De Cusa
5 Jan 13 at 4:16 pm