Minimum wages cause unemployment

The Fairfax Media are reporting a great natural experiment:

______ was working at Japanese bar Hihou, and its sister restaurant Izakaya Den, getting paid an illegal flat rate of $15 an hour. She complained, and a week later she got sacked.

So that’s the caption in the story photo, what is the story?

Diners in Sydney’s A-list suburbs are unknowingly exploiting an underclass of employees who are being grossly underpaid, Fairfax Media has found.

Widespread cash-in-hand payments are resulting in hospitality workers being paid more than a third below the minimum wage, which is currently $15.96 per hour.

Fairfax has established restaurants in Manly, Neutral Bay and the northern beaches are paying employees as little as $10 an hour in cash.

The investigation has found the Sushi Bar Taka in Manly paid employees $10 an hour, Sushi Train in Neutral Bay was paying some employees $13 an hour and a northern beaches restaurant was paying $12 an hour.

With loadings and other entitlements, the workers are missing out on up to half the mandated salary they are entitled to.

Here is the thing – many of these people have a choice between having a job and not having a job at the minimum wage. A lot of these individuals would rather have a job than their so-called entitlement or mandated salary.

But what about the ‘exploitation’? Well you have to ask how many of these individuals are actually exploited? If they don’t like the salary they actually earn they can always get another job, or become unemployed. Being unemployed pays $35 a day – as we now all know following the recent kerfuffle involving Jenny Macklin.

You have to wonder about a mentality that would rather see people being unemployed than working.

After thought: Some might want to argue that cash-in-hand contributes to tax evasion. Yes it does, but at this level of income the taxpayer is better off with some evasion than paying the dole.

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191 Responses to Minimum wages cause unemployment

  1. Gavin R Putland

    If they don’t like the salary they actually earn they can always get another job, or become unemployed. Being unemployed pays $35 a day…

    Excuse me, but we’re talking about foreigners who aren’t eligible for Newstart — which of course is the real enforcer of minimum wages: if you can’t get Newstart, you have to take whatever else you can get, even if it’s less than the law prescribes.

  2. Infidel Tiger

    In the 90′s I worked a for a year at $10 cash in hand an hour at a liquor store. Worked out well for everyone. I also got the staff discount.

  3. Sinclair Davidson

    Some of them are foreigners. In the meantime youth unemployment is 16.8%

  4. hammygar

    Another right-wing glorification of the disgusting exploitation of workers. We really haven’t progressed much since the late nineteenth century in this country.

  5. MattR

    The hospitality industry has been doing this for years and who cares? Really, who cares.

    If they didn’t, many restaurants would go out of business and they wouldn’t have jobs. But hey, when did fairfax and their left wing bretheren ever care about facts when they can destroy peoples livlihoods and feel great about it?

  6. C.L.

    One of the reasons the left likes ‘minimum’ wages is they know it will lead to unemployment and a welfare-receiving demographic to vote for them.

  7. MattR

    Another right-wing glorification of the disgusting exploitation of workers. We really haven’t progressed much since the late nineteenth century in this country.

    Another fact free left wing rant that ignores basic reality in favour of emotive garbage.

    What would you rather, a job paying $12 an hour or no job at all? Oh wait, but if we pay them $16+loadings they will get that! I mean, employers will hire people at a loss won’t they? Won’t they? Surely they will, I mean, businesses are here simply for the benefit of their employees aren’t they? No risk involved with building and owning one, none at all!

    Honestly, you leftards are so stupid it’s almost boring to point it out, almost.

  8. Infidel Tiger

    My old man built a new house recently and paid every tradie he could with a cash price. He must have looked like an underworld figure dropping off bundles of cash all over town.

    The black economy is thriving.

  9. Anthony

    If we don’t like the law we should agitate through legitimate means for it to be changed. If the electorate thinks our proposal is reasonable, they will support it. But really I don’t think it’s ethical to condone this sort of thing in the meantime, Sinclair. And I don’t think a lot of mums and das out there would be happy to have their teenager employed under such conditions. If a restaurant is viable it can pay award wages – plenty do, my son works for one.

  10. Hristos

    One hidden cost of the minimum wage is working conditions. My son works as a kitchen hand earning the min wage. He is given no breaks (other than a loo break)and the shifts range from 8 to 12 hours. The literature on the employment effects of the min wage hasnt been able to find robust adverse effects. This is probably because the “shock” is absorbed by hours, conditions, prices and profits.

  11. Infidel Tiger

    And I don’t think a lot of mums and das out there would be happy to have their teenager employed under such conditions.

    Then they should increase his allowance.

    Was the kid forced to work? Most parents with a brain would be stoked their kid had the nous to get a job and negotiate his own pay arrangements.

  12. Ubique of Perth

    In the late 60′s I worked for 40 cents an hour after school at a chemist in Canberra’s Civic Centre. It’s where I learnt the value of money and how a business works. Thank you Mr Dean.

  13. Pickles

    On Christmas and New Year’s days in Noosa more than half the restraunts and cafes were shut. The remainder were advertsising 18% or $18 per head “surcharge for public holidays”. Trade was thin.
    The doctor’s wives were howling like dingoes giving birth to a reaping hook.

  14. Septimus

    the taxpayer is better off with some evasion

    Surprising comment, Sinc.

    Tax evasion is unlawful. Tax minimisation is ok.

  15. Leigh Lowe

    Forget about tax evasion.
    The primary motivation is welfare fraud.
    The dole plus a handy $200 a week cash in hand works very nicely thanks.

  16. Leigh Lowe

    In the 90′s I worked a for a year at $10 cash in hand an hour at a liquor store. Worked out well for everyone. I also got the staff discount.

    Did you have to take work home Tiger?

  17. MattR

    He is given no breaks (other than a loo break)and the shifts range from 8 to 12 hours.

    Are you putting a gun to his head and forcing him to work there? I worked under similar conditions for a while, told my employer where to stick it and got a better job. Simply, done, they had to train a new employee which cost them even more.

    If a restaurant is viable it can pay award wages – plenty do, my son works for one.

    This is illogical, what if the restaurant isn’t viable unless it pays it’s employees less? You are basically saying that they should go out of business, which is what is basically confirming the argument being made here, minimum wages create unmeployment.

    Good employees will be able to demand better conditions/wages or go to restaurants that offer better conditions.

    If my son was working for $10 an hour, gaining experience and was happy to work there I’d encourage him as much as I could. If he hated it, I’d say “stop being an idiot and get a better job then!”

    Good businesses want good employees.

  18. Holden

    Take it easy Matt you will probaly find Hammy has never been poor before. Only at the coal face do you realise that these laws actively make you unemployable. The irony of having to work around rules implemented, to prevent you from starving, to actually avoid starving is a joke and not a very funny one. It is completely beyond ther comprehension to understand it, Hammy will be feeling sorry for you as how could you be so heartless. Bet you like camping Hammy?

  19. MattR

    It is completely beyond ther comprehension to understand it

    Exactly, hence most leftists are also public servants or living off government funding one way or another (which causes which is certainly open for debate). To them the risk of losing a job is minimal and they can always get more money becuase “hey, they government has plenty of money let’s just get it!” Their employer never has to worry about going out of business, nor do they have to worry about retaining good employees.

  20. Alex

    It depends what a person is actually entitled to under the law. I would support abolishing or at least lowering the minimum wage, in which case there would be no grounds for complaining, but if I am meant to earn $x per hour, I would expect my employer to honour that.

  21. Chris

    Good employees will be able to demand better conditions/wages or go to restaurants that offer better conditions.

    In the case of foreign students who are not allowed to work (or not allowed to work as many hours as they would like) they trade off higher wages for cash payments which don’t risk their visa being pulled. The businesses who take advantage of this are basically involved in corruption – they know they are not allowed to employ these people. I think the better way to handle this would be to just allow students to work as many hours as they want – but they have to pass their courses to keep their visa.

    There are some foreign students who simply don’t know better – eg they don’t know there is a minimum wage. Better education – and it could be as simple as a pamphlet about the wage system in Australia which is given to them when their visa is granted would prevent people from unknowingly being exploited.

  22. Nuke Gray

    Let’s not forget Gillard’s direct contribution to unemployment- those kids who were busted for not working three hours a night, only two, in some private businesses a few years ago! the businesses were happy, the kids were happy, the unions were unhappy. Guess who ‘won’? I think we all lost.

  23. tgs

    But really I don’t think it’s ethical to condone this sort of thing in the meantime, Sinclair.

    I don’t think Sinclair is endorsing or condoning the behaviour – merely commenting on it and citing it as evidence that minimum wages cause unemployment.

    That minimum wage laws increase unemployment is unequivocal. It is a textbook example of the effects of a price floor preventing a market from clearing.


  24. “Another right-wing glorification of the disgusting exploitation of workers. We really haven’t progressed much since the late nineteenth century in this country.”

    Proof positive that today’s left is rooted in late 19th century/early 20th century thinking.

    Almost everywhere you find a minimum wage being introduced you find the unions trying to protect their workers from the competition of lower priced labour (normally of a different race). In South Africa it led to apartheid. In the US it led to a severe worsening of the black unemployment rate, which was LOWER before the minimum wage law was introduced than it ever was after. It was also LOWER than the unemployment rate of whites…which makes you think. That’s one reason why the great, black economist Tom Sowell calls the minimum wage the most racist law ever introduced.

    In modern times the minimum wage is used by large corporations to limit competition from their smaller rivals. For example, Coles and Woollies are big supporters of the minimum wage. Why? Because they pay more than minimum wage and an increase in minimum wage hurts their competitors.

    From racist union discrimination to Big Business market thuggery – these are the policies that Hammygar supports.

    Is there anything the left touches that it doesn’t make worse? I’m yet to find one.

  25. Andrew T

    OT – @ MattR:
    Matt, I’ve read many of your comments around the Net, particularly at places like Macrobusiness. Always enjoyable, thank you. Needless to say, I subscribe to similar views as you.
    Many a time I have wanted to say that I truly admire your persistence pointing out to various statist deadbeats just how wrong they are. Mind you, having gone through the massive flame wars that used to exist on Usenet in the 90s, I am well aware such efforts are ultimately futile, but thank you for not giving up, anyhow.
    Cheers.

  26. Infidel Tiger

    Did you have to take work home Tiger?

    Often. Product sampling was a major part of the profession.

  27. Monkey's Uncle

    Of course high minimum wages price people out of work, and things like unfair dismissal laws make employers more risk-averse about hiring new workers. But that is the whole point. The more that new and marginal workers can be priced out of the market, the less competition there is for the jobs of existing workers (and especially unionised insiders). And the more people who are priced out of the labour market, the greater the constituency for the welfare state.

  28. H B Bear

    Fauxfacts should be celebrating the fact Gillard’s implementation of her union master’s award simplification hasn’t killed off the hospitality sector completely. Not for want of trying.

  29. Jannie

    I think it would be useful to explore the implications of Mr Hammygar’s thoughtful contribution.

    Maybe all kitchen and service staff in the country should be employed by the government on 37 hour weeks with penalty loading after pm and weekends. That is only fair, why should some workers be disadvantaged?

    They wont be overworked because restaurants will not have too many pesky customers. The food will not be unnecessarily fancy, just good honest workers food like cabbage and potatoes and tofu paste sandwiches.

    The workers paradise will have to make a few sacrifices, besides the usual statistics at the collective farms, gastronomy is just a middle class fetish anyway.

  30. JC

    The businesses who take advantage of this are basically involved in corruption – they know they are not allowed to employ these people.

    Chris

    I had higher hopes, a glimmer of hope yesterday that we could take you off the confirmed idiot list and place your name in the suspected idiot list. Look what you’ve done now!

    Moron, corruption is what Liar Party mates are likely to be charged with in NSW. The word describes people finagling with the government or the state apparatus.

    It does not suggest people working in the grey market or the people employing them are corrupt, you doofus.

    You deserve a clip over the ears for that swill.

  31. You could argue that the minimum wage is obsolete with welfare. Simply put, if employers can pay what they like and potential employees can do more for nothing by getting the dole, no employees. Except for illegal immigrants, of course.

    I’ll step out on a limb here and say that i wouldn’t want to see wages here of $6 an hour as in the US. Why work legally for $6 an hour when you can sell or run drugs at many times the price?

    The US has a huge criminal underclass, primarily around drugs.

    Personally, i believe the minimum wage should be scrapped and welfare pay the difference. It sounds ludicrous, but the welfare cost of paying the difference would be less than paying full Newstart and disability pensions for people who could be working.

    With the minimum wage gone, employment would rise and welfare costs would fall. Of course, working should produce a net financial benefit which could be attained through taxation. If it wasn’t for the difficulty of enforcing compliance, i would even suggest negative taxation.

    Regardless, compliance needs to be enforced. How hard could it be to raid restaurants and ensure they are not avoiding tax and paying wages legally?

    Or has The Beer Whisperer simply whispered into too many beers?

  32. Chris

    Personally, i believe the minimum wage should be scrapped and welfare pay the difference. It sounds ludicrous, but the welfare cost of paying the difference would be less than paying full Newstart and disability pensions for people who could be working.

    In principle I agree as I think in general its better for people to be in work than not, but I’d like to see some real costings first to see if it is in fact cheaper.

    As a side question would that mean that someone who is employed on a low wage which requires welfare top-up to get them to the minimum wage would not be subject to Newstart look-for-work (or better paid work in this case) tests? eg. could it become a welfare loophole – someone organises to get paid 1c/hr by a friend to surf – government picks up the minimum wage difference.

  33. Chris

    I had higher hopes, a glimmer of hope yesterday that we could take you off the confirmed idiot list and place your name in the suspected idiot list. Look what you’ve done now!

    I think I’d be slightly horrified if you took me off your confirmed idiot list.

  34. “In principle I agree as I think in general its better for people to be in work than not, but I’d like to see some real costings first to see if it is in fact cheaper.”

    Of course. I’m surprised no one has mentioned it before (that i’m aware of). I’d love to see it get the Ergas treatment, for better or worse. I wouldn’t mind being wrong for a change lol!

  35. Pedro

    The long term unemployed number is going so it is especially important to encourage people to get actual jobs.

    “could it become a welfare loophole – someone organises to get paid 1c/hr by a friend to surf – government picks up the minimum wage difference”

    possibly, but you have to look at the big picture, which is why Sinclair thinks we be better off with a bit of tax fraud of the kind described.

  36. Hristos

    Matt, its a summer job not a career. And its a well known establishment and he wants a reference from them. Still 8-12 hours with no break really sucks.

  37. Morsie

    The only problem with this argument is that often it is not a choice between cash wages or the dole but rather its cash wages plus the dole.

  38. MattR

    Matt, its a summer job not a career. And its a well known establishment and he wants a reference from them. Still 8-12 hours with no break really sucks.

    OK, so he’s getting a fair bit out of the deal then. Low pay, bad conditions but a potential referral at the end that will lead to higher pay and higher conditions. After all, he is free to leave at any time. Seems like the market is working pretty well here.

    Imagine if people over 18 could do that! Hardly fair that they can’t don’t you think?

  39. Sinclair Davidson

    But really I don’t think it’s ethical to condone this sort of thing in the meantime, Sinclair.

    That’s fine. It isn’t my place to impose on your ethical beliefs. I, on the other hand, think that it is immoral to choose economic policies that result in other people being unemployed. That is what people who support minimum wages are doing – they are choosing other people to be unemployed.

    As the point about tax evasion and tax avoidance – this is tax evasion. It is illegal. No question. Is it immoral? I don’t think so.

  40. Infidel Tiger

    I’ll step out on a limb here and say that i wouldn’t want to see wages here of $6 an hour as in the US. Why work legally for $6 an hour when you can sell or run drugs at many times the price?

    A good waiter or waitress will make another couple of hundred a day on top of that in tips.

    You work shitty jobs as stepping stones.

    We really have become a nation of precious little bitches.

  41. Pedro

    ” Is it immoral” It’s piddling, and there is a large connection between being in some work and being in better work in the future.

  42. Pedro

    “You work shitty jobs as stepping stones.” Or because you’re a kid or a Uni student.

    The idea that every minimum wage schlub is living in poverty is both common and stupid.

    I heard kate ellis on the radio this morning defending their stupid job killing rules basically saying they rather people didn’t have the work. I’d bang her, but I wouldn’t put her in charge of anything.

  43. MattR

    You work shitty jobs as stepping stones.

    We really have become a nation of precious little bitches.

    Just had to quote that, so very true.

  44. Rodney

    A minimum wage can do no harm if employers are extremely generous and have plenty of money.
    The first is obviously true but the second unfortunately is not.

  45. Sinclair Davidson

    Pedro – sure. We are in agreement on this point. It is always better to have a job than not. Yet there is a view that obeying the law, any law, is always moral.

  46. pete m

    Another right-wing glorification of the disgusting exploitation of workers. We really haven’t progressed much since the late nineteenth century in this country.

    hammygar

    Is this the same guy who rabbits on about all the great things unions have achieved on behalf of the working class? Unions should be preventing this exploitation – where are they? Unions created minimum wage and penalty rates, which just cost jobs and over-time. Boy genius instead whinges about right-wing ideals of freedom to hire.

    Sinc – was that ANZ fraudster on Whitehaven acting morally or immorally?

  47. Philippa Martyr

    But can these lowly-paid employees outsource their jobs to even more lowly-paid employees?

    http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/programmer-bob-was-a-model-modern-employee-20130118-2cx2x.html

  48. “You work shitty jobs as stepping stones.”

    Well, you should. That particular piece of wisdom should be common knowledge and taught to children. Oh wait, responsible parents do, and irresponsible parents don’t.

  49. Sinclair Davidson

    Sinc – was that ANZ fraudster on Whitehaven acting morally or immorally?

    I think you’ve answered that question in the use of the word ‘fraudster’. If he gets anything less than 20 years ASIC isn’t being serious.

  50. Infidel Tiger

    Yet there is a view that obeying the law, any law, is always moral.

    Australians love marching in time.

  51. JC

    Yet there is a view that obeying the law, any law, is always moral.

    The Good German position. Turn in anyone you think is a Jew.

  52. pete m

    Well I could have said hoaxer, but he was a fraudster and they should teach him a lesson as you suggest.

    Not declaring your taxable income is defrauding the Cth.

    Does that answer your question?

  53. Hristos

    “Seems like the market is working pretty well here.”

    Matt, my point is that absent the min wage, my son would be earn less, but probably enjoy better working conditions. He would still get the employment reference that he is seeking but with less pain (he is not so interested in the pay but the reference and job experience). Still, its character building. Solid work is good for the soul.

  54. MattR

    Matt, my point is that absent the min wage, my son would be earn less, but probably enjoy better working conditions.

    Ah yes I see, in this case I agree. Just goes to show how valuable IR flexiblity is.

  55. Dan

    Beer Whisperer

    Personally, i believe the minimum wage should be scrapped and welfare pay the difference. It sounds ludicrous, but the welfare cost of paying the difference would be less than paying full Newstart and disability pensions for people who could be working.

    What difference? Do you mean no hourly minimum but a mandated weekly minimum?

  56. Sinclair Davidson

    Still, its character building. Solid work is good for the soul.

    Yes – those crappy summer jobs build lots of character.

  57. Carpe Jugulum

    You work shitty jobs as stepping stones.

    Or as my dad once told me “there are no shit jobs, just opportunities”.

  58. Pickles

    How much will I get paid?
    I’ll pay you what you’re worth.
    But I couldn’t possibly live on that.

  59. JC

    Or as my dad once told me “there are no shit jobs, just opportunities”.

    Sop so true.

  60. mundi

    “Personally, i believe the minimum wage should be scrapped and welfare pay the difference. It sounds ludicrous, but the welfare cost of paying the difference would be less than paying full Newstart and disability pensions for people who could be working.”

    how could that possobly work? all employers of minimum wage staff would pay $0.01 per hour and the government would have to pay the rest. stupid.

    There should be no minimum wage. every person should get new start, which should decrese slowly (say 20c per $) as they earn money.(it currently drops at 50c for each dollar earned).

    right now our tax and welfare system is idiotic. $250 with no job, but minimum fulltime job is $640, adding in costs to the employer (super, payroll, leave) a minimum wage job has a minimum cost to employer of $800 per week. no wonder there is unemployment.

  61. “What difference? Do you mean no hourly minimum but a mandated weekly minimum?”

    What, are asking me to think this through? Geez…

    Its easy, use the same system as currently, however every family is eligible for welfare up to a certain amount of income. Replace the minimum wage so that they earn more by working whatever they can.

  62. mundi

    Correction: a minimum wage worker on $16 an hour actually cost a buisness this extra per hour:
    $0.68 public holidays.
    $1.48 super
    $1.23 rec leave
    $0.68 sick leave (typ.)
    $0.96 payroll tax
    actual minimum value employee must be per hour to be in viable job in australia: $21.03.

    paying that sort of money would make those retaurants unviable for sure, the workers wouldnt have any job then, new start is essentially $6.25 per hour for 8 hours per day 5 days a week. i bet a $10 per hour job looks much more attractive.

  63. thefrollickingmole

    Ok heres how the Vietnamese community do it in my town..

    Flat $10 a hour, as many hours as you want, no tax, meals provided.

    A lot of Vietnamese would rather take that than learn English (well) or otherwise fuck about.

    Its win/win.
    He gets his cucumbers picked, they get cash.

    Heres another example.
    A friend of my fathers just had his new bride arrive in Australia and they were strapped for cash. My fathers missus runs a watermelon/rockmelon stand off the back of a ute in a carpark 4 days a week.

    She let her take over for a week, we worked out what she made in 3 days was equal to 1/2 her annual wage in Vietnam ($1500).

    Now theres no good reason this shouldnt be happening everywhere, small stalls can bring in big money, but only if they ignore councils/government.

  64. Dan

    See above…

    I would add that the current system is arse backwards. As it is, you are only eligible for job assistance, training assistance or forced onto a work for the dole scheme after six months. It should be, you want a cheque – you work for it. From day dot.

  65. thefrollickingmole

    Oh and a little saying I coined which went well at a joke site about the rioting shits in Queensland…

    “Welfare, because you need 24 hours a day to be a proper C**t”

  66. Grey

    After thought: Some might want to argue that cash-in-hand contributes to tax evasion. Yes it does, but at this level of income the taxpayer is better off with some evasion than paying the dole.

    Quite, it is well known that people working for under the table cash payments are
    a) generally in secure full time jobs
    b) never claim social security at the same time.

    The US has a minimum wage that might well as not exist and limited entitlements to the dole, and guess what, they have higher unemployment than us.

  67. JC

    The US has a minimum wage that might well as not exist and limited entitlements to the dole, and guess what, they have higher unemployment than us.

    1. Their recession was deeper than ours, Dumbfeld

    2. There’s been a pretty heavy duty supply side shock because the Kenyan doesn’t know WTF he’s doing.

  68. Token

    The US has a minimum wage that might well as not exist and limited entitlements to the dole, and guess what, they have higher unemployment than us.

    Nice try, our job markets do not compare.

    The population of illegal immigrants who have taken the place of legal workers is larger by proportion of the population & absolute #. How many million illegals are there working in Australia?

  69. Grey

    It seems to me by applauding this you are essentially insulting the majority of restauranteurs who obey the law and pay their employees fair wage.
    The restaurants that cheat will operate at a lower cost than those that treat their workers fairly and thus be able to offer lower prices and attract more custom.

    I have nothing against Cat readers guzzling down as much sushi as they want, but since most of them boast about how wealthy they are, I am puzzled as to why they have such a strong objection to the workers who prepare and serve them their sushi being paid at $16 per hour.

  70. Token

    The restaurants that cheat will operate at a lower cost than those that treat their workers fairly and thus be able to offer lower prices and attract more custom.

    Is a restaurant owner who is getting their child to work on a weekend night when they are busy “cheating” or “treating workers fairly”?

  71. Gab

    but since most of them boast about how wealthy they are,

    They do? They are? Show us the links wherein Cat people have “boasted” about their wealth, you envious little greenturd.

    See, this is what greenfilth do, they lie. Their jealousy just drives them to lie. And how dare anyone be wealthy?!! No, you must “share” your “wealth” with others who sit around doing bugger all because da equality! and da shocial justice!

    You’re a loser, Grey. A bit fat fabricating loser.

  72. thefrollickingmole

    Grey

    strong objection to the workers who prepare and serve them their sushi being paid at $16 per hour

    Ill type this slowly so you can read it.
    Its not costing the business $16 a hour, its costing substantially more due to taxes/super/loading etc.

  73. Grey

    Is a restaurant owner who is getting their child to work on a weekend night when they are busy “cheating” or “treating workers fairly”?

    You tell me. I would have thought the answer was fairly simple – pay them the legal wage and claw back any amount you think excessive in board.

    Boy, the innovative ways you guys come up with to try and shave a few dollars off your nights out never ceases to amaze.

  74. Token

    …have such a strong objection to the workers who prepare and serve them their sushi being paid at $16 per hour.

    Does the person have to be paid $16 or $21 in currency? Is it ok if the person receives goods in kind as an offset or is that “cheating”?

  75. Token

    You tell me. I would have thought the answer was fairly simple – pay them the legal wage and claw back any amount you think excessive in board

    Good to see you agree that goods or alternate in kind is a good offset. Is that part of the “legal” wage?

  76. Gab

    It’s truly an anthropological wonder why this Grey liar comes here day after day to get his butt kicked. He must be into masochism and bondage.

  77. Sinclair Davidson

    He must be into masochism and bondage.

    Is that bad? :)

  78. Gab

    Well, when you’re the one doing the whipping day after day it can become tiring and tiresome.

    Anyway, what are you doing here, shouldn’t you be in school or something?? :)

  79. Grey

    Ill type this slowly so you can read it.
    Its not costing the business $16 a hour, its costing substantially more due to taxes/super/loading etc.

    Perhaps you should try learning to read first, before commencing on the difficult adventure of typing. You might want to consider the speed of your typing makes no difference to speed of my reading (thankfully) – a tricky point that you begin to understand when you fully get the hang of this reading/writing business.

    It is costing the businesses who treat their workers fairly substantially more also. Why should they operate at disadvantage to the cheaters just so you get a few dollars shaved off your sushi?

    If it is too expensive, prepare it yourself. But since you are all rolling in money (so you inform me) why can’t you eat your opulent meals happy at the fact that the people who serve you can lead a decent, if very modest, life?

  80. Token

    It is costing the businesses who treat their workers fairly substantially more also. Why should they operate at disadvantage to the cheaters just so you get a few dollars shaved off your sushi?

    How can you establish if a worker is being treated “fairly”? What are the objective tests?

  81. Sinclair Davidson

    Anyway, what are you doing here, shouldn’t you be in school or something?

    Just finished a paper on Chinese corporate taxation so treating myself before starting on asymmetric information in the banking system. Still awake? Good. Check your mail.

  82. Holden

    Grey comes here to show how morally superior he/she is. I bow to you, you may now leave as JC and I are going to discuss business using the new influx of refugees to club baby seals, for their fat, to put in soft drinks (oversized) for 2$ an hour.

  83. Gab

    Just finished a paper on Chinese corporate taxation so treating myself before starting on asymmetric information in the banking system.

    A likely story, but hey if you throw the words climate change into the titles you’d be sure to get some of that “free” money the givernment doles out.

    And besides, Grey says you’re really wealthy so shouldn’t you be on one of your yachts?!

  84. rebel with cause

    Must be my age but $15 cash in hand sounds quite good to me – why complain? If you think you are worth more than that, then make your case or take your business elsewhere. As I have said before, a business will only hire someone if they think they can make more money as a result. I don’t think many people understand this.

  85. Sinclair Davidson

    Grey says you’re really wealthy so shouldn’t you be on one of your yachts?!

    Yes – I’m on a yacht with my ten concubines – I just pretend to be a poor academic so nobody gets jealous and tries to tax me into poverty.

  86. Gab

    Only ten? Cutbacks are terrible.

  87. Sinclair Davidson

    Middle age slows you down.

  88. Grey

    See, this is what greenfilth do, they lie. Their jealousy just drives them to lie. And how dare anyone be wealthy?!! No, you must “share” your “wealth” with others who sit around doing bugger all because da equality! and da shocial justice!

    Gab, I make no apology of being on the side of the honest Aussie small businessman/woman – and the overwhelmingly vast majority of them are honest, they treat their workers as best they can, paying them week in, week out. And let me tell you, Gab, that’s not easy and its not easy keeping up with all the rules and regulations that seem to change every week. But they do their darnest.

    Thats what make me so mad, to see a bunch of moochers like you jeer at them for obeying the rules and treating their workers right, just so you can get your sushi at a few dollars less.

    Shame on you.

  89. Gab

    You misunderstand, Mr Greenfilth Grey, my criticism of your lies and general buffoonery is not an invitation to engage me in your hostilities.

  90. JC

    Gab, I make no apology

    You’re not Rudd are you? God help us if you are.

    Who is asking you to apologize, you idiot.

  91. brc

    I have an American friend who spent 20 minutes in a pub in Sydney sitting at a table waiting to be served, before he gave up and left. It never entered his head that waiting staff have been priced out of existence and so you have to serve yourself, order and collect your own meals.

    Meanwhile, in San Francisco, I recently had a giant burger and fries, washed down with a pint of beer and the entire thing cost about 16 bucks including tip. All in a proper restaurant served by an attractive lass who was friendly and helpful and checked on us several times, and is ready to replace an empty glass with a full one in record time.

    When I get back my local surf club, which is pokie-subsidized, I will order the same meal, get charged 25 bucks, and I’ll have to pick it up myself like some kid with his tuck shop money.

    This is all due to minimum wages and ridiculous regulations like the need for all bar staff to undergo training in order to pour beers, lest they give some to a drunk person. Less young kids have a job, and we all put up with crap service. Ain’t stupid lefty policies grand?

  92. Token

    …to see a bunch of moochers like you jeer at them for obeying the rules and treating their workers right…

    Moochers? Interesting term. I certainly know I pay all my taxes and obligations on time. I wish all government agencies did the same.

    After this year the ATO will not refund any overpayments of GST.

    BTW, you still have not even defined what “fair” and “treating their workers right” means ???

  93. candy

    Apprentices are paid $10.22 per hour in Australia for full-time hours, which is just over the Dole and about two-thirds of minimum wage.
    So many prefer to flip burgers or quit their apprenticesihp if they don’t have family assistance.
    Fourth year is still only about $15.00 per hour.
    It’s a loss to Australia.

  94. Token

    I have an American friend who spent 20 minutes in a pub in Sydney sitting at a table waiting to be served, before he gave up and left. It never entered his head that waiting staff have been priced out of existence and so you have to serve yourself, order and collect your own meals.

    You can bet the staff were gathered together chatting with each other.

  95. Grey

    Meanwhile, in San Francisco, I recently had a giant burger and fries, washed down with a pint of beer and the entire thing cost about 16 bucks including tip.

    Clearly she isn’t going to get rich on your tips.

  96. Gab

    I certainly know I pay all my taxes and obligations on time.

    I get sick to the stomach having to fork over almost 50% of my wages every month only for it to be spent on useless schemes and to pay for incompetent rancid feotid feculant maggoty politicians like gillard.

  97. thefrollickingmole

    Grey

    “a tricky point that you begin to understand when you fully get the hang of this reading/writing business.”

    See that’s where you go wrong, there is a thing called comprehension which is actually the point of the whole reading/writing experience.

    There is an extremely good reason a meal in Karratha (1 adult lunch 3 kids lunches) comes to over $100 but is substantially smaller than the same youd get in a less “high pay” area.

    Every time you push wages up, you also push up prices.

    Do you comprehend that?

  98. Gab

    Do you comprehend that?

    You’re ever the optimist, Mole. That’s lovely.

  99. Token

    Do you comprehend that?

    Sorry Mole, you didn’t express your statement in the subjective terms of “justice”, “dignity”, “fair” & “cheating”. It is going to be very hard for Grey to answer.

  100. Grey

    Apprentices are paid $10.22 per hour in Australia for full-time hours, which is just over the Dole and about two-thirds of minimum wage.

    One day a week they are at TAFE. It may not be a great deal in the short-term, but a good 4 year apprenticeship will set you up better than many a 4 year university degree. Individual circumstances may vary, but generally you would be a fool to throw in the chances an apprenticeship can offer in order to flip burgers at minimum wage.

    I would think an increase is a good idea, but then I don’t run a business or take on apprentices.

  101. JC

    Flipping burgers at the min wage works for young kids still at school, Greys.

    Why do you hate young kids working?

  102. brc

    Clearly she isn’t going to get rich on your tips.

    I paid 15% which is the going rate. On our table there were 4 people, which probably added up to about ten bucks. She was working about 6 or 7 tables.

    Even accounting for the tip splitting which goes between waiting and cooking staff, you might begin to see how a good server can make a very good living working in a restaurant, even though their pay is only 6 bucks an hour. And cash tips helps them make tax-free cash.

    But because we insist on an above-market rate for serving staff, they don’t usually get tipped. So they end up with less cash, we get worse service, and there are less jobs. Yay for employment regulations, nobody wins!

  103. Infidel Tiger

    I have an American friend who spent 20 minutes in a pub in Sydney sitting at a table waiting to be served, before he gave up and left. It never entered his head that waiting staff have been priced out of existence and so you have to serve yourself, order and collect your own meals.

    American service is the best in the world because every wait staff is basically running their own business. It blows you away when you first get there.

    Then you come back to Australia and some surly piece of work grudgingly takes your order in between uploading Instagram photos of her genital herpes.

  104. Monkey's Uncle

    “The US has a minimum wage that might well as not exist and limited entitlements to the dole, and guess what, they have higher unemployment than us.” – Grey

    The US has expanded access to unemployment benefits substantially. It used to be that unemployment benefits ended after 6 months. Now unemployment benefits for eligible individuals only cut out after 99 weeks (or almost 2 years). And while it is true that eligibility for unemployment benefits is tighter in the US than Australia (in that it is tied to previous work history and payroll contribution), unemployment benefits in many states are more generous compared to average wages than is the case in Australia. So at the moment it is actually more attractive for unemployed people in America to stay on the dole for a bit longer and hold out for a better job to come along, instead of simply accepting anything they can get compared to the situation in Australia.

    Moreover, the official unemployment level is not simply a product of the number of jobs created in any economy. It is also the product of how many people are actually required to look for work. In Australia more people are exempt from looking for work under our welfare system (such as a much larger proportion of single parents compared to the US, and Australia also has a slightly higher percentage of working-age people on disability).

    In addition, you also need to look at the broader macroeconomic factors. Australia’s economy has been artificially propped up by demand for our natural resources, which at least partially allows us to carry some of the costs of our inefficient labour market.

    Unfortunately Grey, you cannot just look at headline figures on unemployment and come to sweeping conclusions without delving a little deeper into the other variables. I know that makes life difficult for those who can do nothing but apply a bookkeepers perspective to more complex economic issues.

  105. candy

    Grey, they don’t all go to TAFE, but do the TAFE study at home but still work the regular hours, sometimes 40 hours per week. It depends on the apprenticeship and the employer.

    That’s why a lot quit. Families can’t go on subsidising them for four years.
    Working at 19 years old or 20 and getting say $14.00 per hour – before any tax taken out – pretty tough.

  106. JC

    American service is the best in the world because every wait staff is basically running their own business. It blows you away when you first get there.

    Then you come back to Australia and some surly piece of work grudgingly takes your order in between uploading Instagram photos of her genital herpes.

    You get attitude at the hipster restaurants. Just tell them to fuck off and get the manager explaining there’s a clash and you would prefer a different person to serve.

  107. brc

    The US has a minimum wage that might well as not exist and limited entitlements to the dole, and guess what, they have higher unemployment than us.

    Surely this piece of backwards logic isn’t trying to say that minimum wages increase unemployment?

    I’ve seen some stupid leftie arguments in my time, but this is the first time someone has claimed that raising the price on something will increase demand for that thing. I suppose swannee did try and argue that increased mining taxes would increase mining so I’m no t surprised someone would apply swan-level logic to minimum wages.

  108. JC

    I had a problem with this fucking arshole recently. I ordered a glass of wine and he filled it about 2/3rds of the way to the marker, so I asked why and he went all haughty on me so I asked for the manager, told him the story and asked for another waiter. No tip either. Fuck’em.

  109. candy

    ” but generally you would be a fool to throw in the chances an apprenticeship can offer in order to flip burgers at minimum wage.

    Absolutely true, just saying, it’s hard going for kids for those four years.

  110. Infidel Tiger

    That’s why a lot quit. Families can’t go on subsidising them for four years.

    No loss to us. They were obviously dead shits if they didn’t realise that once they have their ticket a trade in Australia is a licence to print bulk cash.

  111. Grey

    flipping burgers at the min wage works for young kids still at school, Greys.

    Why do you hate young kids working?

    JC, candy was talking about people leaving their apprenticeships to flip burgers because they would get more money in the short term. I was just saying a good apprenticeship can give you a very good career and it is usually a waste to throw it away for a relatively insignificant short term gain.

    I know all this must seem like a different world to you as you sit glued to your computer monitor watching your share portfolio go up and down. Fretting about the high wages your stocks may have to pay their workers might be eating into your dividends. But these are quite normal decisions that normal people face.

  112. Monkey's Uncle

    Grey, if you look at the chart on OECD figures contained in this article, it clearly shows unemployment benefits compared to average earnings are more generous in the US than Australia.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/11/the-rich-countries-with-the-most-generous-unemployment-benefits/265319/

  113. Infidel Tiger

    I ordered a glass of wine and he filled it about 2/3rds of the way to the marker,

    If find those glasses marked with a marked line offensive. In a properly ordered society they’d fill the fucker to the brim.

  114. JC

    ….but generally you would be a fool to throw in the chances an apprenticeship can offer in order to flip burgers at minimum wage.

    I’ve seen it at the coalface. The people at the the minimum wage… the adults.. are basically losers in 95% of the cases. They don’t show up to interviews most of the time..they are unreliable and don’t work for any length of time as the dole beckons.

    They are the worst of our species.

  115. JC

    I’ll say this and it’s already been said before by someone else. the minimum wagers are the most undeserving people in the country outside of single mothers who keep pushing out kids.

  116. Grey

    I get sick to the stomach having to fork over almost 50% of my wages every month only for it to be spent on useless schemes and to pay for incompetent rancid feotid feculant maggoty politicians like gillard.

    It is funny, Gab threw a fit when I said many Cat readers went on about how wealthy they are. Then he reveals that not only is he the top tax bracket, but that he is so far into the top bracket and $180000 a year seems so distant. that all the other tax bracket rates are insignificant to determining his final percentage.

    And what is it that causes this supremely fortunate man so much heart-burn? What is the cause that brings forth righteous anger in this person to whom a lowly $180000 a year is but a distant memory?

    The thought that the person serving him sushi might be on an undeserved $16 an hour.

  117. MattR

    Clearly she isn’t going to get rich on your tips.

    How do you know the meal wasn’t $10 and the waitress got a whopping 60% tip?

    Do you like being wrong constantly or are you actually delusional enough to think your world view is in any way reasonable or logical?

    Essentially, your views leave young and low skilled (people who need a job the most) out of the workforce, this is clear undeniable fact, yet you come here and claim that you are somehow standing up for businesses who ‘follow the rules’? What unadulterated bullshit.

    Why is it that you leftards constantly have ideas that are proven to be complete and utter failures that hurt the people you most want to ‘help’, yet consider yourselves morally superior? It’s like punching someone in the face and saying “stop whining you’re lucky, I could have kicked you in the balls as well! See how moral I am?”

  118. Infidel Tiger

    Clearly she isn’t going to get rich on your tips.

    She probably serves 50-100 pax a day getting between $2-$5 from each of them.

  119. brc

    And what is it that causes this supremely fortunate man so much heart-burn? What is the cause that brings forth righteous anger in this person to whom a lowly $180000 a year is but a distant memory?

    No, it’s paying half of your income to governments who piss it against the wall.

    While in your stupid frenzy of looking up tax tables, like any stupid lefty, lavouring under the delusion that the only tax you pay is the one on a pay stub.

    Well, here’s some news for you.

    -income tax
    -capital gains tax
    - super taxes
    - gst
    - fuel excise
    - stamp duties
    - import duties
    … And on and on it goes

    Most people lose at least half of their income to taxes, you ignorant fool. It’s the rich people who can afford better tax minmisation who end up paying less than 50%.

  120. MattR

    Let’s just ignore the utter tripe about the income of another reader, honestly who cares? Why are you so jealous? Maybe you should work harder so you can earn more.

    Focus on this little gem.

    The thought that the person serving him sushi might be on an undeserved $16 an hour.

    This basically shows everyone here that you have absolutely no idea what is being argued. You can’t get over the stupid, childish, idea that if you simply force businesses to pay their workers more then this is good for workers.

    Nobody here is begrudging a worker for earning $16 an hour (plus extras), not one person. What we are taking issue with is the fact that forcing an employer to pay their workers this, essentially excludes anyone whos labour is worth less than it from the workforce. So you sit there all high and mighty while the 18 year old who can’t get a job anywhere sits on the dole. You tell us all how great and holier-than-thou you are as a business goes bust because it can’t afford to pay it’s workers any more because of idiotic left wing IR laws.

    You tell us how great you are now that pubs don’t even hire waiters and waitresses because it’s simply too expensive to do so (while their customers are charged more than ever).

    I’m glad you can be oh so high and mighty, Mr Moral Highground, because I guess all those people don’t matter right?

    “The worst kind of tyrant is one who acts for your own good, for their tyranny occurs with a free conscious” or something like that.

  121. MattR

    Most people lose at least half of their income to taxes, you ignorant fool. It’s the rich people who can afford better tax minmisation who end up paying less than 50%.

    Actually, I’d wager the poor pay well over 50% as they are the biggest consumers of alcohol, cigarettes and gambling as well.

    Like I say above, in never ceases to amaze me how much damage lefties can do with their policies yet still feel morally superior to everyone. It truly is amazing.

  122. MattR

    Keep in mind this is based on income alone, I’m sure if you take out welfare it comes down a bit.

  123. brc

    IT don’t confuse the idiots with math problems. They think that an extra $6 for a 4 hour shift, leaving them with $24 is better than working for tips, clearing double or triple that with plenty tax free.

    The girls who serve the beer at the Oktoberfest get paid no wages at all. Ech one is a little micro-business. You’ll find American college girls serving beer to German men in leather shorts. Is this exploitation? Do they fly all the way to Munich in order to moan about the fact that there is no minimum wage?

    Try and get that one through your head one day.

  124. Grey

    She probably serves 50-100 pax a day getting between $2-$5 from each of them.

    She may or she may not.
    The minimum wage for wait staff is $2 an in the US. Some probably end up better off than Australians, some probably worse off.

    Either way, I prefer the Australian system as do most Australians aside from a few malcontents with their $180 000 plus salaries raging at the outrageously high %16/hr minimum wage, if you like the American system then allow me to assist you with your coat.

  125. Infidel Tiger

    You’ll find American college girls serving beer to German men in leather shorts. Is this exploitation?

    My tip depends on this. Who’s wearing the leather shorts?

  126. MattR

    if you like the American system then allow me to assist you with your coat.

    Care to point me to the people on the dole that can afford to move to the US? More over, the ones that will get a green card as well?

    Honestly, do you go out of your way to make idiotic comments?

  127. brc

    Either way, I prefer the Australian system as do most Australians aside from a few malcontents with their $180 000 plus salaries raging at the outrageously high %16/hr minimum wage, if you like the American system then allow me to assist you with your coat.

    Except you have to get your own food and beer because the bars and restaurants can’t afford to put on wait staff.

    So you prefer the system that usually results in less pay, and less jobs, and worse service, because you think otherwise people who voluntarily turn up for work are getting exploited?

    The stupid, it burns.

  128. Pedro

    brc, actually its about 25% on average I think. Anyway, thats about the total tax take as a percent of GDP. A small cohort of the population gets the 50% or worse, including yours truly and it shits me.

    Exactly MattR.

  129. brc

    You’ll find American college girls serving beer to German men in leather shorts. Is this exploitation?

    My tip depends on this. Who’s wearing the leather shorts?

    The men wear the shorts. The girls serving wear the low-cut, short skirt black and white fräulein thing.

    A picture is worth a thousand words

    Just remember when yousee that smile she is working for free! Exploited by greedy capitalists ! They would be far better off with one tattooed surly girl with a nose ring and a RSA certificate, because at least she’d be getting a Real Wage!

  130. Pedro

    “Either way, I prefer the Australian system”

    That’s fine, it’s a free country, just don’t pretend its doing anyone any good.

  131. Harold

    I don’t like those laws which say I can’t walk out of a shop with their merchandise without paying for it, so I do it anyway.

    I take it the average Catallaxy user will approve of this behaviour.

    ‘laws’, meh!

  132. Pedro

    So harold, you obey all laws all the time? Riiggghhhht. Wanker

  133. JC

    Harold

    Would you have turned in Jews? You know it as the law, right?

    I bet you would have, you good little german.

  134. Grey

    Would you have turned in Jews? You know it as the law, right?

    I bet you would have, you good little german.

    I see, so paying below minimum wages and cheating businesses who do pay them of custom is what Oscar Schindler would do?
    (actually he might, but that is another story)
    What do you want? A Righteous Gentile award for cheating workers and law abiding businesses of money?

  135. Dan

    A lowly apprentice may get paid fuck all bet they get a tool allowance. About $500 for the first year culminating at the fourth year worth about $1500. Also, the employer gets a tidy government stipend. To some of the less scrupulous employers out there it’s a great way to get cheap labour.

    Also some other corrections, you don’t go to TAFE once a day per week, generally you attend to theory for two to three weeks for every three months on the job.

  136. Pedro

    “I see, so paying below minimum wages and cheating businesses who do pay them of custom is what Oscar Schindler would do”

    I suspect the people you’re fretting about weren’t rounded up by the Gestapo and freighted to the restaurant to work. They were probably happy to have the job. You’d probably be happy to have some sense.

  137. Infidel Tiger

    I don’t like those laws which say I can’t walk out of a shop with their merchandise without paying for it, so I do it anyway.

    I take it the average Catallaxy user will approve of this behaviour.

    We don’t take kindly to property crime. In our world you’d be shot dead by the store owner and your family billed for the cost of cleaning the footpath.

  138. Grey

    Also some other corrections, you don’t go to TAFE once a day per week, generally you attend to theory for two to three weeks for every three months on the job.

    I only speak of the apprenticeship I was considering. Either way the time appears roughly the same. Anyway the point I was making was dividing the weekly wage by 40 hours is a misleading figure.
    Personally I think it should be raised, but I am not a stakeholder in this.
    Even as it is I think a good apprenticeship is a lot better than many a 4 year university degree.

  139. Infidel Tiger

    Even as it is I think a good apprenticeship is a lot better than many a 4 year university degree.

    Well you’re not completely crazy then. Your lobotomy was only partially successful.

  140. JC

    Greys, you tool.

    Harold is making reference that good little germans need to obey the laws at all times even when they consider the law unjust and even when it causes zero harm to another individual.

    On that basis, you don’t want to be sticking harold into a time machine putting him in Berlin in the 30′s as that fucker would be dobbing in every Jew he could get his dirty grubby little mits on.

    You often see evidence here of leftwingers who would be a good little germans.

  141. Grey

    Well JC, a good german was also expected to dob any KPD or SPD party members he knew of also.
    Are you sure you wouldn’t have been quite enthusiastic about that?

  142. MattR

    Personally I think it should be raised, but I am not a stakeholder in this.

    Yay, let’s send even MORE people onto the dole permanently. You moral crusader you.

  143. Dan

    Even as it is I think a good apprenticeship is a lot better than many a 4 year university degree

    If you can last, give it a go. Which apprenticeship you considering?

    By the way, drop the commie shit, trades don’t like it.

  144. JC

    Well JC, a good german was also expected to dob any KPD or SPD party members he knew of also.
    Are you sure you wouldn’t have been quite enthusiastic about that?

    I’m not the one saying we need to obey every unjust law, Greys. You, Harold and others are.

    In other words I’m being very consistent with my position, in that one can take a moral position and disobey unjust laws particularly when it doesn’t directly harm another individual.

    Whereas you and Harold wouldn’t countenance such a thing.

    …….Wouldn’t stick either of you in a time machine as a lot more Jews would be dead.

  145. Tel

    All you have to do if you want to screw someone who believes in the minimum wage is ask them how they calculate what that minimum wage exactly should be.

    After they have gone on for a while and come up with a figure, ask why it shouldn’t be a dollar more than that.

    Eventually they will admit that if you set it too high, it forces people out of work, and that’s the job done really.

  146. Keith

    The Duke explains the nature of exchange.
    From 21:00 to 22:30

  147. Grey

    Whereas you and Harold wouldn’t countenance such a thing.

    Me? I break all kinds of laws – generally for personal amusement though and not for personal profit.
    I try not to send law-abiding competitors bankrupt by gaining an unfair and illegal advantage on them.

  148. Infidel Tiger

    Grey, by purchasing your $3 carrot juice from vendor A haven’t you therefore robbed vendor B of $3 by not giving him your custom?

    My God, your inhumanity knows no bounds.

  149. Grey

    My God, your inhumanity knows no bounds.

    Mr Tiger, actually it is my appetite for carrot juice that knows no bounds, I am fully able to patronize all carrot juice vendors in my area – provided they pay at least the minimum wage.

    Should I learn that someone was offering me cheap carrot juice on the back of slave labor, they lose my custom immediately.

  150. candy

    Too many carrots can send your skin a bit orangey.

  151. Woolfe

    A friend of my son is a mature age apprentice. In order for him to get a “start” his family had to do a deal where the extra wages paid to him because of his age were paid back.

  152. Jim Rose

    see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQdFrqt3464 for Chris Rock’s Everybody Hates Minimum Wage Part 1

  153. Jim Rose

    see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p25kR6TG7pE for Chris Rock’s even better Everybody Hates Minimum Wage Part 2

  154. kae

    Mundi

    Oncosts are calculated at 24% (or were in the mid 1990s).

  155. Helen Armstrong

    Well my nephew is a first year apprentice sparky and some weeks he makes a grand or more, which is pretty good for a 16 year old. But then he does the hours (without complaint, I might say) probably becasue they are no-where near what he had to do when he was a child exploited by the farm manager (his dad).

    Long hours are not bad, peoples, they are character forming.

  156. Keith

    The young lady in the story seems to have a chip on each shoulder. Rather then being sacked, it might have been her quitting rather than backing down.
    So, in reaching for an extra 6%, she refused to remain on the 94%. Yep, reeeaally rational, and now she has her name and picture in the paper, advertising her grievance skills to potential employers.

  157. candy

    That’s amazing Helen, about the $1000 per week.

    My son is a first year and gets just over $10.00 per hour (45 hours per week he works). This is normal wage.

    He saved for two years from a casual job to help ends meet when he got his apprenticeship.

  158. “I am puzzled as to why they have such a strong objection to the workers who prepare and serve them their sushi being paid at $16 per hour.”

    Because eating the shit costs about $100 per hour! That said, there’s money in them sushi joints …

  159. “Correction: a minimum wage worker on $16 an hour actually cost a buisness this extra per hour:
    $0.68 public holidays.
    $1.48 super
    $1.23 rec leave
    $0.68 sick leave (typ.)
    $0.96 payroll tax”

    Proof that payroll tax is a tax on jobs.

  160. kae

    And cash tips helps them make tax-free cash.

    That’s not correct in the US. It’s deemed that wait staff earn 15% in tips and they are taxed on that amount, whether they get it or not.

  161. “how could that possobly work? all employers of minimum wage staff would pay $0.01 per hour and the government would have to pay the rest. stupid.”

    Who would work for $0.01 per hour? If people have a choice to work or not work (as they already do – 800,000 on disability pensions says so), they will only work when there is an economic benefit. Can’t be that hard. Unless it is…

  162. Helen Armstrong

    Yes Candy, there is Saturday and overtime in that. He is working on a big build in so his wage would not be ‘normal’ in that regard. Good on your son for saving up and doing an apprenticeship, he will be well off job wise when he has learned his trade.

    I guess the wages of today make up for the lack of provision of lodging food and training

    The system of apprenticeship first developed in the later Middle Ages and came to be supervised by craft guilds and town governments. A master craftsman was entitled to employ young people as an inexpensive form of labour in exchange for providing food, lodging and formal training in the craft.

  163. “That’s not correct in the US. It’s deemed that wait staff earn 15% in tips and they are taxed on that amount, whether they get it or not.”

    Isn’t that a ridiculous arbitrary amount? Once you get to the stage that you are simply guessing, maybe it should simply be turfed.

  164. Rohan

    Is a restaurant owner who is getting their child to work on a weekend night when they are busy “cheating” or “treating workers fairly”?

    Interesting point Token. What is the deal that these kids have done with their parents? Have the parents said “Son/Daughter, here’s the deal. Your mother and I will pay for your expensive higher education so you can obtain those career goals you’ve always dreamed of. Our business isn’t generating massive profit and we don’t have $50k-100k to throw around so in exchange for that support we need you to work for the business without pay. That work will go towards your education expenses.”

    That’s the deal my sister and I had with our parents. Neither of us feel exploited as the hours we worked came nowhere near the cost it took to send two kids to the big smoke and achieve that education. It also instilled a work ethic with which I look at today’s young adults and despair with all but few exceptions. When you start to ask those few shining lights of the next generation entering the workforce, they all have the same type of background. Hard working, no nonsense but highly caring and supportive families running an SME. Not a precious prima donna amongst them, and they’ll do brilliantly for it.

  165. Septimus

    Proof that payroll tax is a tax on jobs.

    In NSW Payroll Tax is not payable unless the threshold of $689,000 is reached. Then it is payable at 5.45%. On $16 per hour that is 87.2 cents.

  166. John Mc

    I began working below minimum wage in the 90s on some sort of contract that was legal but constantly attacked by unions who would try to approach us on site. They didn’t like being told that I needed the job and suited me for the flexibility and as many hours as I wanted. Let me buy a car, start some study and get my life underway.

  167. John Mc

    My father was always a union man, and I grew up reading the union newspaper, but I think that was probably when I started to get sceptical. It was always the lazy fuckwits that gravitated toward the union crowd.

  168. thefrollickingmole

    On apprenticeships…

    My brother did a mature aged sparky one about 8 years ago, best move he ever made..

    BUT…

    My father moved out of his house into a (dirt) cheap apartment so my brothers family could live there.
    After a year of that I brought him a place on the condition he brought it off me for the same price when he could..

    So it took a family to get him through the apprenticeship as much as wages.
    Fortunately he blitzed it and got his ticket a year early…
    Brought the house off me, then lost it in the divorce… Life is lumpy..

    I dont know how a mature age apprentice can do it without extra support.

  169. Louis Hissink

    Unemployment is simply unpurchased goods because the asking price is too high.

    Even a wood plank could understand this.

  170. Louis Hissink

    Apprenticeships always assumed that the youngsters involved lived at home. Apprentices are unskilled and ignorant youngsters worth next to little until they learn the necessary skills from practical experience.

    Lefties prefer not to choose that lifestyle choice, it seems.

  171. kae

    Who employs and trains apprentices these days?

    My builder, now retired, had an apprentice when he built my house. It was difficult for him because the apprentice needed to be trained on the job and there was only the builder and perhaps another bod, hired when needed, who knew what he was doing to help. The quote for the house was X with a percentage to cover wages/profit.

    He retired after a fall about twelve years later and didn’t have another apprentice after he’d finished the one he had when building my place.

    Too many small companies can’t afford the time to train an apprentice when they are a one-man company. My father and his partner in business* had an apprentice and Dad was the trainer (the partner didn’t have a trade ticked and Dad had the builder’s licence). When the business was wrecked by the partner Dad had to find the apprentice (third year by that stage I think) another apprenticeship.

    *who ripped the business off to the tune of $25k in the mid 70s costing my mum a third mortgage and having the sheriff delivering blueys several times from people owed money by the business (they knew they’d get nothing from the partner who owned nothing, except the company ute which he decided to keep). The thieving by the partner included things such as claiming expenses for everything (Dad didn’t), getting Dad to cosign cheques for say, worker’s comp insurance, and then pocketing the money and not paying the insurance. Dad was warned by the accountant, but the partner kept ripping him off.

  172. sdfc

    Government used to train a shitload of them from memory.

  173. thefrollickingmole

    sdfc

    Used to be the majority of mature age were through govt utilities and things like hospitals..

    My experience of it was massive “mates” club. Impossible to get a look in unless you were mates with someone allready there. (same as my experience trying to get a job (advertised) on the wharf)

  174. Gavin R Putland

    Louis Hissink wrote:

    Unemployment is simply unpurchased goods because the asking price is too high.

    The surest way to reduce the minimum legal asking price, as seen by employers, is to have payroll tax declared unconstitutional: http://is.gd/aptoftc .

  175. John Mc

    Or just do the right thing and get rid of payroll tax on the basis that we’re a moral, civilised society that values productivity and employment.

  176. John Mc

    (same as my experience trying to get a job (advertised) on the wharf)

    No chance. I wonder if it’s still the same? Those things were passed from father to son.

  177. thefrollickingmole

    John Mc

    So I learnt, i actually got laughed at when i turned up for an interview.

    I actually got asked “whos your dad, who in your family works on the wharfs”…

    A real eye opener.

  178. Cato the Elder

    You need to think of an apprenticeship as training rather than a job. In early times the ‘prentice’s parents would actually pay the master for providing the apprenticeship, rather than the other way around. Four years’ training with no HECS debt and they get paid as well? Bargain!

  179. “…….Wouldn’t stick either of you in a time machine as a lot more Jews would be dead.”

    Then you’re doing it wrong! Let them ply their lefty ideas with Atilla the Hun. Or maybe try some Islamist appeasement on Vlad the Impaler.

  180. kae

    Cato
    I thought it was a way for the parents to offload another mouth to feed.
    The ‘prentice would go live with the master and do the dirty work for board and lodgings.

  181. Monkey's Uncle

    “I don’t like those laws which say I can’t walk out of a shop with their merchandise without paying for it, so I do it anyway.

    I take it the average Catallaxy user will approve of this behaviour.”

    There is a difference between laws that stop people transgressing against the property and person of others versus laws that restrict what consenting adults choose to do with their own property or person. But it takes half a brain and half a moral compass to work that out. In the case of minimum wage laws, you may have a situation where an individual is willing to work for less money than the minimum wage, but the law prevents them from doing so.

    Your argument is like comparing a law against consensual sex with a law against rape.

  182. Yobbo

    Apprenticeships are one thing, but I think a lot of Catallaxians forget that there are plenty of shitty, dead end jobs out there that train you for nothing and lead nowhere.

    Retail and services are this kind of job. Telling a kid to get one of those jobs is terrible advice.

  183. Fisky

    @Monkey`s Uncle – I’ve often noticed that about the Left. They think getting their comments deleted on a non-Leftist blog is ‘censorship’ but naturally they all support Finkelstein. There is no point talking to them about anything really.

  184. Mundi

    The whole apprenticeship system is design by the building unions to Minimize the number of workers and maximise hourly pay. In most states you have to pay apprentice rough the government, and its illegal to pay them extra. The wages are from $7 for a first year, which is a joke. A kid out of high school can pick up $20 per hour in casual job with the right penalties.

    I still have a hard time explaining how a 4th year app can go from $14 per hour in 4th year, to $50 per hour once they are licensed….

  185. mundi

    job in USA at an ‘Australian’ restaurant, pay was $3 per hour plus half of the tips (other half to kitchen). could easily do 8 tables per hour, avg tip was about $10-$15 per table. never made less than $30 per hour. 4 hours work on a good night with $150+ table bills could net you $300. they had trouble fjnding workers because people didnt inderstsnd how much could be made on tips, and those that did apply were trashy and spoke and presented poorly. people wouldnt even dress nice for interviews.

  186. Helen Armstrong

    It annoys me that when we hire foreign workers to work, we have to pay them Super, which they can’t access til they leave the country. When they do access it, the government keeps a portion. So this is back door taxation by the Feds and also deprives Oz of the equivalent super money being spent in the country. In effect we are exporting tax and super to another country for no benefit.

    And hardly any of them have a super account when they arrive, despite having worked for several months prior.

    And we have to pay them the minimum wage, despite them being useless for the first few months – you have to check all their work (which is pretty straightforward) and constantly be on the alert for safety and mechanical issues such as ‘no, I told you, this vehicle is petrol, not diesel, do not fill it with diesel’, and flat tires and getting lost and many would benefit from a big bolt under the accelerator.

    Having said that, across perhaps 50 employees, 3 or 4 really shone and we would have them back in an instant.

    So to me this raises several questions. Why does the experienced hand get the same amount as a learner (for say, the first 6 months) and why are we giving backpackers all the entitlements of Oz workers when they will never be utilised in Oz?

  187. Helen Armstrong

    Oh Dear, that was actually two questions, not several.

  188. Some might want to argue that cash-in-hand contributes to tax evasion. Yes it does, but at this level of income the taxpayer is better off with some evasion than paying the dole.

    Sinclair
    You might want to have another thought. Why do people get cash in hand is it only to evade tax or to keep other entitlements also. You seem to have some puritan view of the honest thief. I personally view tax evasion slightly differently to stealing from the government but often it is the same thing. So theft (recieving any entitlement) should recieve the harshest penalties if you think that a little tax evasion is ok.

  189. Sorry ’bout the use of the word entitlement but it appeared in the story and I am drunk I really mean handout.

  190. Jim Rose

    sinclair, why on earth do you think minimum wages causes unemployment?

    McKenzie and Tullock point out that money wages are the only form of employee compensation. Labor is paid in many different ways, so regulating one aspect of an economic relationship invites offsets elsewhere. Why is the minimum wage exempt from the Peltzman effect.

    A binding law should have the same effect regarding avoidance as rent controls.

    Many efforts to avoid the rent control regulation range from diluting housing quality to key money. Watch any American programme set in New York for the inevitable sub-plot on rent controls and housing inspectors and courts.

    A remixing of the wage package to a package of cash and non-monetary perks that is less preferred by workers will reduce labour supply rather than reduce labour demand.

    Suppose that by law you had to be paid more in cash but RMIT responded by asking you to teach more and publish less. Would that increase your labour supply?

    See Chris Rock’s ‘Everybody hates the minimum wage’ for more on this at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQdFrqt3464

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