Penn and Teller Climate Change Bullshit at Catallaxy Files

Penn and Teller Climate Change Bullshit

162 comments

With a heat wave in Australia, record snows in parts of Europe, it’s time for Penn and Teller to give some perspective

Written by Samuel J

January 20th, 2013 at 7:08 pm

Posted in Global warming and climate change,SJ

162 Responses to 'Penn and Teller Climate Change Bullshit'

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I remember when ABC radio used to run a show called Tim & Debbie which made fun of PC crap. Amazing, but true. They would have had a field day with the Ecotherapy lady. How things have changed. Now you’d have a good chance of hearing that stuff presented as gospel by the same network.

blogstrop

20 Jan 13 at 7:46 pm
LOL!!.
Al Gore the profit prophet.

jumpnmcar

20 Jan 13 at 8:02 pm
That was good! Back in the 70′s when I was at uni in another country studying climatology global cooling was the rage. Climate did not pay the bills (boring sitting at an airport playing with balloons and Stevenson screens and that soon palled) so I went to the dark side and entered business. However I retain enough knowledge to assess bullshit in climate science after all those years of study. And Penn and Teller really nail it!

Tekweni

20 Jan 13 at 8:25 pm
fuck me!

face ache

20 Jan 13 at 8:39 pm
[...] saw this video a while ago, but Catallaxy Files have just reposted it, and that was my cue to share it with ACM's readers. Please be advised that [...]

Penn and Teller tear 'global warming' a new one | Australian Climate Madness

20 Jan 13 at 8:49 pm
Ever noticed that the only people who believe in doomsday are political activists devoted to trolling sites that don’t believe in the latest doomsday cult?

Very entertaining, SJ. Would like to see/hear more from these clowns.

Tom

20 Jan 13 at 9:28 pm
If you have an extra 27 minutes spare after watching that one, watch their segment on “organic food” too. It’s a hoot.

sdog

20 Jan 13 at 9:54 pm
sdfc, organic food has a large carbon footprint.

see http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/09/10/is-organic-food-worth-the-expense/the-ecological-case-against-organic-farming

20% less productive so more farmland has to be cleared to produce the same amount of food. organic also produces more carbon emissions per unit of food,

Jim Rose

20 Jan 13 at 10:37 pm
That was good! Back in the 70′s when I was at uni in another country studying climatology global cooling was the rage.

That was when we pumping SO2 into the atmosphere, we stopped doing that and cooling effect of SO2-generated particulates are slowing being worked out of the system.

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 12:03 am
You’re an atmospheric physicist now, greys?

JC

21 Jan 13 at 12:09 am
That was when we pumping SO2 into the atmosphere, we stopped doing that and cooling effect of SO2-generated particulates are slowing being worked out of the system.

I’m pretty sure that’s not an approved argument. You might want to read up a bit more on that before deploying it.

wreckage

21 Jan 13 at 12:10 am
You’re an atmospheric physicist now, greys?

Just because you are scientifically illiterate, does the whole world have to be?

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 12:13 am
That was gold!

Andy's Rant

21 Jan 13 at 12:14 am
Organic wheat is just wheat as it was grown in the 60′s through 70′s. Plough, plough, plough, plough, plough, grow wheat! Lather rinse repeat. Massively “carbon intensive” and only really works on certain soil types, flat terrain. Do it in most clays and you get a hardpan you could land a 747 on, do it in areas with wind or water erosion issues and you lose all your topsoil.

It can work, and if people want it then hey! Go right ahead. But you can’t do much of it and if we were to move heavily towards it we’d have to re-clear masses of farmland that have gone to national parks or regrowth. 20% less productive would be optimistic, and even then would mean hundreds of thousands of hectares converted back to farming.

wreckage

21 Jan 13 at 12:14 am
Grey, what would you say to surveys that find pretty consistently that the scientifically literate layman is more likely to be skeptical of AGW?

wreckage

21 Jan 13 at 12:27 am
Grey, what would you say to surveys that find pretty consistently that the scientifically literate layman is more likely to be skeptical of AGW?

I would say:
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 12:32 am
You’re an atmospheric physicist now, greys?

Just one more of his 50 shades of ~~grey~~ stupid.

5 down, 45 to go.

sdog

21 Jan 13 at 12:34 am
Give it to him: Al Gore is one of the greatest – if not, the greatest con men – in world history. He invented a story about the globe having a FEVER and made billions from the resultant hysteria. The world hasn’t seen anything like this since Erik the Red christened Greenland.

C.L.

21 Jan 13 at 12:55 am
Give it to him: Al Gore is one of the greatest – if not, the greatest con men – in world history. He invented a story about the globe having a FEVER and made billions from the resultant hysteria. The world hasn’t seen anything like this since Erik the Red christened Greenland.

But he did invent the Internet.

Rob

21 Jan 13 at 1:12 am
I’ve been waiting years for this. Upon first seeing Bullshit, I immediately wondered when they would do one on global warming. As obvious sceptics, there was little doubt which way they would go on the subject. It’s pleasing to see I was right. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel for them.

The Beer Whisperer

21 Jan 13 at 1:25 am
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again

I love the innocent joy with which you contradict yourself. Never change.

wreckage

21 Jan 13 at 1:34 am
The took on the gun-grabbers too, in the wake of Columbine:

Gun Control is Bullshit.

sdog

21 Jan 13 at 3:44 am
The s02 argument was deployed briefly as a reason for the pause in warming – china was pumping out too much s02. But you don’t hear too much about that these days, because the moment is stops cooling and shows the slightest uptrend in warmth, the co2 argument is back front and centre.

Of course, because the true believers think that because the developed world restricted so2 emissions (and generally cleaned up atmospheric particulate emissions) the problem was solved and thus the world started warming again.

In reality, what happened was that the earth was going through warming and cooling phases, and the soothsayers found a post-hoc cause to pint it on after the trend became obvious.

Of course, the true message of this video is ‘when the people who say it is a problem start acting like it is a problem, then I will believe it is a problem’.

brc

21 Jan 13 at 5:40 am
According to a study published in PLOS ONE, “unusually warm spring weather in 2010 and 2012 […] led to the earliest spring flowering times on record”!
Early spring flowering times!
See “Plants Flower Nearly a Month Earlier Than They Did A Century Ago”:

There’s little disagreement among scientists that climate change, as a whole, is a fearful proposition. But, interestingly, some botanists might actually see these findings as encouraging for the plants in particular. Those studied, at least, seem able to adapt to the warmer springs and shorter winters by flowering earlier, rather than missing out on crucial growing time—a flexibility that bodes well for their future in a warming climate.
Of course, this is only a stop-gap measure, as the scientists suspect that there is some flowering threshold the plants cannot pass. If winters get so short that these flowering plants have no time at all to go dormant, it would conceivably alter their annual growth cycle to an extent that threatens their survival—or allows plants from warmer areas to move in and outcompete the natives.

Doom!

Deadman

21 Jan 13 at 5:52 am
I watched the organic food one. While it’s amusing, in particular I have no problem with organic food in the way I have no problem with overpriced clothes. If people want to pay more for a product which has more psychological benefits than real benefits, that’s their lookout. In reality, there is zero chance of any government, anywhere of enforcing any type of organic food mandate. So I think it will remain a niche product for people with more money than sense.

Like anything, if you want to pay more for mythical brand benefits, more power to you. It’s only a problem for me when you try and use state power to force everyone else into your choice. If you want to pay more for organic apples, or give your airline more margin for ‘carbon offsets’, enjoy. Just don’t use the threat of jail to force me to go along with it.

brc

21 Jan 13 at 6:28 am
In reality, there is zero chance of any government, anywhere of enforcing any type of organic food mandate.

And what about places where, if you want to use GM seeds or give your livestock GM feed , the government prohibits you from doing so?

It’s only a problem for me when you try and use state power to force everyone else into your choice.

Yes, that is a problem.

sdog

21 Jan 13 at 6:48 am
Penn & Teller really are great. Exposing idiots and scams in a funny way.

MattR

21 Jan 13 at 7:16 am
That was when we pumping SO2 into the atmosphere, we stopped doing that and cooling effect of SO2-generated particulates are slowing being worked out of the system

They were also contributing CO2 emissions as the other significant cause Grey. But I guess that omitting significant parts of the whole picture is SOP for climate evangelists. You know I think it’s called misdirection and all that.

Rohan

21 Jan 13 at 7:40 am
Some people in the comments seem to think that Penn and Teller actually retracted their arguments (not that it matters in the slightest). Can anyone confirm this? It will certainly make me lose a bit of respect for them, they were right the first time!

MattR

21 Jan 13 at 7:40 am
Some people in the comments seem to think that Penn and Teller actually retracted their arguments (not that it matters in the slightest). Can anyone confirm this?

They got slammed by the evangelical Warmy community for that episode – basically charged with “HERESY!!!111!!!”

So Jillette wrote an editorial expanding on his thoughts, basically reiterating what he said in the confessional at the end of this video.

He didn’t “retract” his “climate heresy”, he just reiterated, “Hey, no one knows what’s happening, if it’s happening, how to stop or fix it if it is happening, aren’t skeptics allowed to say ‘I don’t know’ anymore?”

The evangelicals have apparently mutated that into a “retraction”. Go figure.

sdog

21 Jan 13 at 7:54 am
BTW, that episode was first aired like 5 years ago. Good to see it getting another go-’round.

sdog

21 Jan 13 at 7:56 am
Some people in the comments seem to think that Penn and Teller actually retracted their arguments (not that it matters in the slightest). Can anyone confirm this?

I don’t know about a retraction, but they took a while to come out as skeptics. I saw an interview where Penn was asked about AGW, and he said he wished he could ‘grow a dick’ and declare himself a skeptic, especially since he ‘loathes Al Gore’. A the time he wasn’t ready to out himself, as so many scientists were agreeing with AGW.
Since then he must’ve studies some of the ‘scientific’ scams.

Papachango

21 Jan 13 at 8:14 am
That video is extremely insulting and is the very type of thing that Nicola’s legislation is aimed at.

manalive

21 Jan 13 at 8:23 am
Penn & Teller as libertarians attract a lot of fans from both Left & Right. What’s kind of funny is how some on the religious right get all butthurt over their shows poking fun at creationism, Catholicism, Biblical literalists, et. al. … and then many on the left get all butthurt over the shows poking fun at THEIR sacred cows such as recycling, GM food, gun control etc.

sdog

21 Jan 13 at 8:26 am
Fantastic, sweary stuff and the butchering of a sacred cow to boot.

I approve.

Rabz

21 Jan 13 at 8:37 am
So Jillette wrote an editorial expanding on his thoughts, basically reiterating what he said in the confessional at the end of this video.

He didn’t “retract” his “climate heresy”, he just reiterated, “Hey, no one knows what’s happening, if it’s happening, how to stop or fix it if it is happening, aren’t skeptics allowed to say ‘I don’t know’ anymore?”

Sounds like the rational & considered position.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 8:59 am
sdog

Thanks mate, I was getting a bit worried for a second. Seems like it was just a case of warmists lying to push their cause, what a shock.

MattR

21 Jan 13 at 9:00 am
I urge you look up their effort on PETA. On phone, too difficult to provide link.

Grant B

21 Jan 13 at 10:10 am
Thanks for the Penn & Teller link. They work through the same issues we do, but they are so much more entertaining.

The Gun Control episode of Bulls**t addresses the key points in that “conversation”.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 11:44 am
“Fantastic, sweary stuff and the butchering of a sacred cow to boot.”

Butchering? They ate it.

The Beer Whisperer

21 Jan 13 at 12:40 pm
What’s kind of funny is how some on the religious right get all butthurt over their shows poking fun at creationism, Catholicism, Biblical literalists, et. al. … and then many on the left get all butthurt over the shows poking fun at THEIR sacred cows such as recycling, GM food, gun control etc

One indication of being a true libertarian is that sometimes you’ll piss off the right as well as the left. Sometimes you’ll be called ‘to the right of Genghis Khan’*, other times ‘to the left of Lenin’

*I’ve never understood this expression – did GK come up with a primitive form of Austrian economics and free-market liberalism in the territories he conquered?</em

papachango

21 Jan 13 at 12:52 pm
sorry I didn’y close the italic tag properly Now Done.

papachango

21 Jan 13 at 1:03 pm
Just watched it all in a spare hour. Very funny. Loved the ‘eee-aws’ wittering about climate misery in their counselling sessions. (Why are these well-fed people so miserable?)

CL is right about con man Gore:

The world hasn’t seen anything like this since Erik the Red christened Greenland.

lol

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

21 Jan 13 at 2:38 pm
I suppose I should try and find their episode on Catholicism.

dover_beach

21 Jan 13 at 2:52 pm
‘to the right of Genghis Khan’

The mongols did ethnic cleansing on a scale the Nazis failed to emulate.

If you have a strong stomach, spend a few hours listening to these programs.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 3:00 pm
Penn and Teller are entertainers and illusionists. They can be very entertaining indeed.

But they are also uneducated, ideologically driven, intellectually lazy and dishonest – above all, in relation to Christianity.

Their “Bullshit – The Vatican” rolls out half a dozen monumental examples of, well, BULLSHIT, in its intro alone.

C.L.

21 Jan 13 at 3:27 pm
penn and teller on gun control is good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhXOuuHcjbs

asks how many mass murders at NRA conventions and gun shows?

Jim Rose

21 Jan 13 at 3:38 pm
at the 21 minute of penn and teller on gun control http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhXOuuHcjbs there is an interview with susan hoff:
Law-abiding good citizens obey gun laws, suicidal mass killers do not:
1. A gunman entered Luby’s cafeteria in Texas in 1991 and shot 23 people dead.
2. Suzanna Hupp expressed great regret for obeying the Texas law that strictly prohibited the carrying of a concealed weapon.
3. Hupp left her gun in her car parked outside Luby’s cafeteria.
4. She had to watch the gunman murder her parents before her eyes. she had ample time and opportunity to shoot him.

Jim Rose

21 Jan 13 at 3:42 pm
I saw Susan Hupp interviewed with a few others similar victims on Stossel. Start 4:50min.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 3:47 pm
What’s kind of funny is how some on the religious right get all butthurt over their shows poking fun at creationism, Catholicism, Biblical literalists, et. al.

lol – indeed. I give you Exhibit A, C.L. @3:27 pm

they are also uneducated, ideologically driven, intellectually lazy and dishonest – above all, in relation to Christianity.

papachango

21 Jan 13 at 3:54 pm
in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inFtOMx8nDU on P.E.T.A. Penn and Teller go looking for a fat vegetarian.

Jim Rose

21 Jan 13 at 4:18 pm
Love Penn and teller. All their stuff is hilarious. They refer to PETA President in Rose’s link as a press slut.

Penn reckons that that craziest side usually wins in a drawn out publicity context. However the pro meat crowd has it’s own crazies too.

” You wanna talk crazy fuckers… Meet our very own.. Ted Nugent”.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 4:33 pm
Ideologically driven? Perish the thought!

Quentin George

21 Jan 13 at 4:36 pm
Yes, they are.

When Penn says in the introduction to something called “BULLSHIT” that the Vatican denied the Holocaust, the only explanation is that’s he’s lying or being lazy because of – or to further – an ideological agenda.

C.L.

21 Jan 13 at 4:57 pm
CL

The big difference with people like Penn and Teller is that they may very well dislike the Catholic Church, but they would do nothing to impinge on one’s right to worship. In fact they would defend that right.

That’s a big difference between say the appalling Tubbsie Milne and these guys.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 5:11 pm
Lol… you gotta love these dudes. Just watching the gun control seg.

There’s a large woman who carries a small gun in her bra. Penn suggests it gives new meaning to words “gun rack”.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 5:15 pm
“lol – indeed. I give you Exhibit A, C.L. @3:27 pm”

Frankly I don’t know how you could argue that organised religions aren’t a scam so it’s not surprising that it’ll be covered on a scam-busting show. A few wrong facts (if that’s true) can’t change the big picture on organised religion. They’re selling snake-oil.

Pedro

21 Jan 13 at 5:16 pm
Frankly I don’t know how you could argue that organised religions aren’t a scam…

Donating money to support people like vocational sisters who care for people in the paliative stages of life and similar is not the same as being scammed.

Pedro, think before you post crap like that.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 5:20 pm
Pedro

Is that what you meant when lecturing people about the difference in tolerating gays and accepting them.. re bigot.

So it’s okay to attack someone about their religious beliefs but not okay for gays and if you are you’re a bigot.

No kidding, how do you manage to make such a demarcation without appearing a little bit hollow.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 5:20 pm
The video game episode is also excellent, showing it as a convenient straw man for whackos.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 5:21 pm
Pedro

You’re making the exact some arguments that everyday leftwing turds make.

If you don’t agree with what I am saying you’re a bigot.. regarding gays. That of course doesn’t apply to gays though.. no siree.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 5:22 pm
Frankly I don’t know how you could argue that organised religions aren’t a scam…

What, as opposed to disorganised religions?

Gab

21 Jan 13 at 5:25 pm
This will go nowhere and be very polarizing. Welcome to the Cat!

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 5:26 pm
JC, I don’t think any less of people because they believe in god, I just think they believe something wrong, same deal for astrology, socialism or AGW alarmism.

However, organised religions sell a non-existent salvation and my comment was about organised religion. If I said we should treat people differently because they have a particular silly belief then I would be a hypocrite. I made a deliberately provocative comment. Notice how the people celebrating penn and teller from razzing one institution (AGW fretting is basically an institution now) can take a different view when it is an institution they support.

Token, sure, churches do lots of charitable work and have some good schools and hospitals. It’s a funny thing, they’re great institutions except for the problem with the central justification.

Pedro

21 Jan 13 at 5:29 pm
Pedro..

All I’m seeing is a lot of what you think.

I’m not in the least bit concerned with what you think about religion. I highlighting your inconsistency here in that what you’re saying.

Notice how the people celebrating penn and teller from razzing one institution (AGW fretting is basically an institution now) can take a different view when it is an institution they support.

Isn’t that what you’re doing?

JC

21 Jan 13 at 5:33 pm
You’re an atmospheric physicist now, greys?

Interesting, I was just listening to a video from Roger Peng discussing using R statistics with an example from his own field of atmospheric data.

He was demonstrating how ozone production increases exponentially with rising temperature – this isn’t talking about the ozone layer, although maybe there is a relationship? Anyway the point is; is this one of the field back mechanisms for managing climate by Gaia?
Temperature rises produce more ozone – more ozone or thicker ozone layer blocks more UV light and reduces energy reaching the earth surface and hence acts as a coolant (it also traps some IR wave lengths as GHG, but this is a smaller effect overall)

This would have been a feedback mechanism that we whacked out of shape when we began to destroying the ozone layer back in the 70s and 80s. If so it is fairly obvious so I am sure the IPCC would include it in their models. Anyway, just a thought bubble I would throw there out, because I know JC is interested in these things.

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 5:33 pm
The other dumb thing Penn says in “Bullshit – the Vatican” is that he’ll be condensing 2000 years of history into a half hour. There was not even a church at the Vatican hill until the fourth century and it wasn’t really interchanegably synonymous with the Holy See until 1929. There are, then, distinct intellectual disadvantages in spending most of your time in Las Vegas auditoriums.

C.L.

21 Jan 13 at 5:34 pm
The video game episode is also excellent, showing it as a convenient straw man for whackos.

It is only going to get worse for that industry. Too many people in the Hollywood and the IT data vendors provided thousands of hours of pro-bono support to the DNC in the last election.

If the DNC goes after the RNC’s supporters like the gun lobby, the vid game industry are going to get hit in the push back.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 5:34 pm
Token, sure, churches do lots of charitable work and have some good schools and hospitals. It’s a funny thing, they’re great institutions except for the problem with the central justification.

Sounds like you admit they are not a scam…

Token

21 Jan 13 at 5:35 pm
“You’re making the exact some arguments that everyday leftwing turds make.

If you don’t agree with what I am saying you’re a bigot.. regarding gays. That of course doesn’t apply to gays though.. no siree.”

I don’t think that’s true at all. Let’s be clear about the gay comment I made. I said that Lizzie sounded like a bigot when she said we should tolerate gays. Tolerate implies a grudging acceptance at best. A bigot is a person who treats people differently or disapproves of them because of an attribute. What’s more, it was pretty clear I wasn’t accusing her of being a bigot.

Saying that a church is selling snake oil is no different from saying that a communist party or greens party is selling snake oil. Those are things you ought to be able to discuss like adults.

Pedro

21 Jan 13 at 5:37 pm
The big difference with people like Penn and Teller is that they may very well dislike the Catholic Church, but they would do nothing to impinge on one’s right to worship.

Well, good for them.

I’m just giving you “Penn & Teller – BULLSHIT.”

But apparently when the boot’s on the other foot, their admirers get all – what was the word? – butthurt.

Pedro

You’re making the exact some arguments that everyday leftwing turds make.

What an amazing surprise. I’m shocked.

C.L.

21 Jan 13 at 5:38 pm
Greys

Get back to me when you’ve studied atmospheric physics otherwise, you know shit about it.

Look dickweed, reading up on a couple of blogs written by some idiot doesn’t mean you’re suddenly an expert in the field, so stfu.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 5:40 pm
Token, sure, churches do lots of charitable work and have some good schools and hospitals.

No no. Every day the Catholic Church alone feeds, clothes, shelters and educates more people than any other institution on earth.

C.L.

21 Jan 13 at 5:41 pm
I said that Lizzie sounded like a bigot when she said we should tolerate gays.

I’m still surprised you could interpret that context from the comment and from the contributor. Probably a statement of your own values and prejudices…

Token

21 Jan 13 at 5:41 pm
“Sounds like you admit they are not a scam”

Sounds like your deliberately ignoring what I said. The scam is the apostolic mission, not the charity work.

Pedro

21 Jan 13 at 5:42 pm
It is only going to get worse for that industry. Too many people in the Hollywood and the IT data vendors provided thousands of hours of pro-bono support to the DNC in the last election.

If the DNC goes after the RNC’s supporters like the gun lobby, the vid game industry are going to get hit in the push back.

Almost every freedom is under assault by people who have a totalitarian social agenda and no knowledge whatsoever of the facts. Video games are the new Dungeons & Dragons, are the new violent films, are the new heavy metal, are the new Elvis Presley.

Scared of change? Growing into middle age? Confused by young people and their music or other interests? Call for a ban!

It’s areas like video games where even the Left betray they are deeply, deeply reactionary. Left is right, right is left and libertarians are the meat in the sandwich.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 5:42 pm
I don’t read blogs on climate change. Aside from Anthony Watts, waiting for his confidently forecasted big chill to kick in.

Actually I don’t read Antony Watts either, but if we get the big chill I promise I will.

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 5:42 pm
I’m still surprised you could interpret that context from the comment and from the contributor.

It’s all about the nuance, Token. The nuance.

Gab

21 Jan 13 at 5:45 pm
The Vatican is certainly one institution that delivers services to the poor etc, in a more effective manner than big government, whose existence I am very happy to tolerate. At least the church has shown a willingness to reform and evolve, unless the left, which just finds sneakier ways to engage in creeping totalitarianism.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 5:45 pm
Pedro, don’t try your bulls**t on me.

Your initial absolute statement which I objected to:

Frankly I don’t know how you could argue that organised religions aren’t a scam so it’s not surprising that it’ll be covered on a scam-busting show. A few wrong facts (if that’s true) can’t change the big picture on organised religion. They’re selling snake-oil.

You did claw it back, with this clarification:

Token, sure, churches do lots of charitable work and have some good schools and hospitals. It’s a funny thing, they’re great institutions except for the problem with the central justification.

Yet you don’t admit they are not just a scam.

Sure you don’t believe in the values and teachings, your right, but surely you must agree in the main religion creates more benefits than costs.

Every day the Catholic Church alone feeds, clothes, shelters and educates more people than any other institution on earth.

That is a reality.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 5:48 pm
I don’t think that’s true at all. Let’s be clear about the gay comment I made. I said that Lizzie sounded like a bigot when she said we should tolerate gays. Tolerate implies a grudging acceptance at best. A bigot is a person who treats people differently or disapproves of them because of an attribute.

Tolerate… accept.. the two words are so close it’s difficult to separate different meanings.

What’s more, it was pretty clear I wasn’t accusing her of being a bigot.

Well you were, no? Otherwise why bring it up in the first place?

you consider it bigoted not to accept nor tolerate gays. However, as you see it, there’s no problem with using the similar lingo that you admonish others for. At least be a little consistent.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 5:48 pm
Probably a statement of your own values and ~~prejudices~~ interpretation of words

Pedro

21 Jan 13 at 5:50 pm
I don’t read blogs on climate change. Aside from Anthony Watts, waiting for his confidently forecasted big chill to kick in.

Actually I don’t read Antony Watts either, but if we get the big chill I promise I will.

Oh okay, got it. You do read Watts, but you don’t read him.

Fuck, you’re a moron.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 5:51 pm
Almost every freedom is under assault by people who have a totalitarian social agenda and no knowledge whatsoever of the facts. Video games are the new Dungeons & Dragons, are the new violent films, are the new heavy metal, are the new Elvis Presley.

Scared of change? Growing into middle age? Confused by young people and their music or other interests? Call for a ban!

Good summary. Each example counts on ignorance and wants to stop what is not understood.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 5:52 pm
To neither accept nor tolerate gays would be bigoted.

But to accept them as a fact and to tolerate (to compartment the mind so you ignore it) the bizarre realities of their private lives, is simply pragmatic. I’m not looking for Pedro or anyone else’s approbation. I think poo sex, whether hetero or homo is vile, and thinking that does not make me a bigot, so step down from the judge’s bench, you windbag.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 5:52 pm
Oh and you do read blogs but you don’t.

So greys, in summary..

You don’t read blogs but you do. You read Watts but you don’t.

as I said, you’re a moron.

Fisk is right, Lefties should not be allowed to voice their opinion in the public.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 5:55 pm
“They’re selling snake-oil.”

Token, do you think that’s a comment on the charity work or the prosletysing?

“Well you were, no? Otherwise why bring it up in the first place?”

Because of the context of Lizzies’s comment in the thread. Here it is http://catallaxyfiles.com/2013/01/13/guest-post-dover_beach-limited-government-requires-defending-the-conjugal-view-of-marriage/#comment-700724
I don’t understand what all the fuss is about.

“However, as you see it, there’s no problem with using the similar lingo that you admonish others for”

Where?

Pedro

21 Jan 13 at 6:00 pm
Where?

You don’t reckon people who read you earlier comments about organized religion would consider them bigoted?

Really?

JC

21 Jan 13 at 6:08 pm
At least the church has shown a willingness to reform and evolve, unless the left, which just finds sneakier ways to engage in creeping totalitarianism.

Oh I dunno, I’d say the left evolves a lot more quickly than the Catholic Church. Yes the totalitarianism has always been there in some form, but it’s only taken a decade or two to go from Soviet style industrial communism to neo-pagan anti-industrialism, and to go from being champions of the working class to dissing them as bogan planet destroyers.

That’s a pretty radical change if you ask me.

papachango

21 Jan 13 at 6:09 pm
Sure JC, those comments were clearly and deliberately about an instituion. Are we at the point that you can’t criticise an institution? Bigotry is something you do to other people.

Pedro

21 Jan 13 at 6:12 pm
Also, saying catholics, or irish or blacks can’t join the club is the B word. Saying god doesn’t exist so the basic mission of organised churches is a scam is a totally different thing.

Telling you that your belief in god is wrong is also not bigotted.

Pedro

21 Jan 13 at 6:16 pm
That’s a pretty radical change if you ask me.

Good point.

But the goals don’t change.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 6:19 pm
Sure JC, those comments were clearly and deliberately about an instituion.

Oh come on, Pedro. Stop playing these games. The Catholic Church is not an inanimate object. It’s people! What you were doing is attacking peoples’ beliefs.

Are we at the point that you can’t criticise an institution?

First off, as far as I’m concerned, break a leg. You can criticize whomever and whenever you like. What I did was raise your inconsistencies.

Bigotry is something you do to other people.

Which is what you were doing. Only the other day admonishing others and splitting hairs as to what was and wasn’t considered bigotry by you.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 6:20 pm
Telling you that your belief in god is wrong is also not bigotted.

Good to see you tolerate these people, Pedro.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 6:21 pm
“What you were doing is attacking peoples’ beliefs”

I agree, can’t we do that now? Or is it only some beliefs that are protected? You can attack socialism and enivoronmentalism but not deism?

Pedro

21 Jan 13 at 6:31 pm
pedro

You’re playing exactly the same insanely irrational game as my 20′s year old kid was earlier with me today over Skype. It wasn’t fun then and less so now.

As I said, you can criticize whomever whenever you like.

You’re being inconsistent in your view on how gays ought to be accepted/tolerated and people with religious beliefs.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 6:43 pm
I agree, can’t we do that now? Or is it only some beliefs that are protected? You can attack socialism and enivoronmentalism but not legislated worshipful normalization of sodomy?

Good point.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 6:47 pm
He’s not making that point, Abu. He’s attempting to redirect the entire discussion to make it appear that’s what the argument was, when it was nothing of the sort.

The entire point was about Pedro’s inconsistency.

In fact your approval of that line of argument is in fact a criticism of Pedro’s of you had thought about it because that’s exactly what he did.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 6:50 pm
oops not “of”, If.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 6:51 pm
JC, please reread the paragraph I posted carefully. It may have a change in there.

Naughty of me, I know.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 6:51 pm
Lol…

Oh I didn’t go past the first few words and thought it was the exact cut and paste.

Sorry:-)

JC

21 Jan 13 at 6:55 pm
I agree, can’t we do that now? Or is it only some beliefs that are protected? You can attack socialism and enivoronmentalism but not deism?
Socialism and environmentalism (of the loopy super-organism kind) are costing me, deism isn’t.

manalive

21 Jan 13 at 6:55 pm
“normalization”
Relief. Thought it was about mandating.

WhaleHunt Fun

21 Jan 13 at 6:58 pm
Relief. Thought it was about mandating.

Lol. The act is voluntary, but your views on it may need prior approval.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 7:13 pm
Oh okay, got it. You do read Watts, but you don’t read him.

Fuck, you’re a moron.

Well if you want the full story, I was doing a google search for 10 Beryllium ice core data – to see if anyone had some long time series posted (hard to find, I might add) and clicked on one his posts.

I was so amused by his confident prediction that it was just on the verge of getting really really frosty that I remembered it, I don’t read him on a regular basis. Actually I do read Climate Audit a bit, but that is a fairly irregular blog.

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 7:32 pm
“10 Beryllium ice core data”
Looking at maps associated with the data, it always spooks me how big Greenland looks on the maps.

WhaleHunt Fun

21 Jan 13 at 7:40 pm
Seems to be about equal NT plus SA so quite a size.

WhaleHunt Fun

21 Jan 13 at 7:42 pm
Grey, Chris, I have to tell you that you’re both just so skippable. Your comments go straight out the window.

blogstrop

21 Jan 13 at 7:44 pm
Grey, Chris, I have to tell you that you’re both just so skippable. Your comments go straight out the window.

Oh well, I read yours. But only because I am bored, you never have anything interesting to say.

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 7:46 pm
Happy Days!
Looking at elevation map of Oz, It is Adelaide an a lot of SA that guzunder. Goodbye Penny Wong. Hello to a 5 state Federation!

WhaleHunt Fun

21 Jan 13 at 7:48 pm
Melt ya b*std Melt!

WhaleHunt Fun

21 Jan 13 at 7:49 pm
I said it first.
That would seem to be the level you’re operating on.

blogstrop

21 Jan 13 at 8:05 pm
Blogstrop, I agree. There are some here that I zip past and never read. (the two you name plus Monty and SFB). I don’t know why people engage them at all.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 8:07 pm
Abu

Both those dickweeds need to be put back in their box. I hear what you’re saying but putting them down isn’t really engaging them.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 8:09 pm
There are others too, by the way.

JC

21 Jan 13 at 8:09 pm
The problem is these shitbirds thrive on attention, good or bad. They don’t think like normal people, but are damaged from lack of respect in life and online. Trolls are thus the modern evolution of comedy club hecklers.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 8:12 pm
This story of a CSIRO study by Asa Wahlquist didn’t make the front pages. ( PDF sorry, all the other sources I could find were $$$ )

New research has found since 1960 the frost window has lengthened by as much as three weeks in the Victorian grain belt and by two weeks in NSW.
Frosts in Western Australia have, statistically, remained the same, while eastern South Australian sites are similar to Victoria, and sites in the west of that state are more like Western Australia.
CSIRO climate application scientist Dr Steven Crimp has been studying the incidence of frosts across the grain belt between 1960 and 2011, as part of research supported by the Grains Research and Development Corporation.
“Observational data shows the incidence of frosts has increased in Australia and there have been shifts in frost occurrence to later in the year,” he says.

jumpnmcar

21 Jan 13 at 8:29 pm
FFS, Google ” Asa Wahlquist reports on the implications of an increase in the number of frosts ”

Second one.

jumpnmcar

21 Jan 13 at 8:31 pm
The problem is these shitbirds thrive on attention, good or bad. They don’t think like normal people, but are damaged from lack of respect in life and online. Trolls are thus the modern evolution of comedy club hecklers.

An interesting analogy, but no one, not even your own mother after weekend long bender, would possibly mistake your rage filled rants with Jerry Seinfeld or anyone else who could possibly gain admittance to the stage door of a comedy club.

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 8:43 pm
Excuse me, Pedro, but I think I said we should as a society be tolerant towards gays. I did not say ‘tolerate’ and I have already pointed out to you that the two terms have a semantic slide, one that I am highly aware of and thus would not conflate.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

21 Jan 13 at 8:45 pm
Oh look, a climate change thread fucked over by gays, guns,trolls and church.

jumpnmcar

21 Jan 13 at 8:51 pm
I’m with you Lizzie, I am tolerant towards my gay rellies sexual preferences. I love them, but I don’t love their sexual choice or aspire to join their ranks.

Helen Armstrong

21 Jan 13 at 8:54 pm
But, btw, I think that others have the right to say they ‘tolerate’ gays but nevertheless disapprove of what they do.

I don’t do disapproval much, as I am pretty much a live and let live sort of person. However I am fairly good at disapproving of behaviour with my kids and da Hairy Ape. The look of death, they all call it, led in this descriptor by the worst and biggest miscreant; no prizes for guessing who.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

21 Jan 13 at 8:58 pm
Here again we see the BULLSHIT of Penn…

He hates the scouts because their oath puts duty to God before duty to country and self. He says (6:12) that this is the credo of “suicide bombers.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoP1YW72Zk

Clearly, he an atheist fundamentalist. And that’s a shame because he’s very intelligent and entertaining.

C.L.

21 Jan 13 at 8:59 pm
When did the word tolerant become loaded with bigotry? That one crept up on me, I must confess.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 9:00 pm
Abu, I must say I was impressed how cheekily Penn used the world GILF in context in that P&T Video Games episode.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 9:00 pm
Jump – sorry about the thread drift.

Look of death to all who now go off-topic.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

21 Jan 13 at 9:04 pm
Token, I can only imagine the reaction of the interview subjects if they ever see these shows. The narrative is done in post production of the interviews which are done by the show’s writers. That one struck me as OTT but it’s by no means rare.

I loved when he branded Teller on the arse. “Looks like he can talk!”

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 9:05 pm
Oh I was about to say-…on second thoughts, that’s quite a terrifying look you have there, Lizzie.

Gab

21 Jan 13 at 9:06 pm
The narrative is done in post production of the interviews which are done by the show’s writers. That one struck me as OTT but it’s by no means rare.

It is rather unfair, though often funny when the interviewee is a d*ck. At least John Stewart’s guys pull their crap to the face of the interviewee so they have a chance to respond.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 9:08 pm
I loved when he branded Teller on the arse. “Looks like he can talk!”

I saw that – GOLD

Token

21 Jan 13 at 9:09 pm
I agree with you, Token. Mind you, Stewarts editorializing is just as bad, in my view. People can’t respond to this sort of stuff. But when it’s insane PETA or AGW zealots, I’m okay with it.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 9:10 pm
Oh look, a climate change thread fucked over by gays, guns,trolls and church.

Don’t know what you are complaining about, I gave you a perfectly good negative feedback of temperature, ozone and blocking radiation.

I checked out Asa Wahlquist’s article; as you must well be aware the map she produces shows more patches with fewer frosts than those with more frosts. Just for reasons unknown the areas with more frosts line up with wheat growing areas. If you push misinterpretations of studies eventually you will get caught out. If you let misinterpretations grow until lots of people repeat them, the deflating effect of when the underlying data is produced is even greater.

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 9:13 pm
I really like when Robb Riggle was on The Daily Show.

His interview with the Hippies & Code Pink at Berkeley was the best that show ever had.

Token

21 Jan 13 at 9:27 pm
grey, poppycock.

jumpnmcar

21 Jan 13 at 9:38 pm
That was excellent.

I love the exchange where Code Pink want to shut down the recruiting office because they stand for free speech…

Riggle (ex-Marine): if only there was an organization that was… Sworn to protect free speech…

Code Pink moron: that’d be great!

Wriggle: that’d be awesome, right?

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 9:39 pm
“Observational data shows the incidence of frosts has increased in Australia and there have been shifts in frost occurrence to later in the year”

Dr Steven Crimp.

Grey calls scientist a liar.

jumpnmcar

21 Jan 13 at 9:42 pm
Steven Crimp was the person who produced the map with the large areas of red (fewer frosts) and smaller areas of blue (more frosts – mainly located over wheat growing areas) which you so cheerfully ignored.

So not only am not calling him a liar, I am saying you are distorting his excellent and careful research in a manner he would be most unhappy about.

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 9:45 pm
I am saying you are distorting his excellent and careful research

It’s a direct quote, fuck head, if you have a problem with his interpretation then take it up with him.

As for me, I regret taking your bait.
You do not converse honestly.

jumpnmcar

21 Jan 13 at 9:54 pm
It may be a direct quote but you are ignoring both
a) both the context which is related to wheat growing areas
b) his carefully research map which shows more frosts are limited to selected regions of Australia

Seriously, do you believe climate change is all some massive conspiracy run by CSIRO that only the lone voice of Dr Crimp is manfully struggling against?

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 9:58 pm
As for me, I regret taking your bait.
You do not converse honestly.

QED regarding my earlier advice on these oxygen bandits.

Abu Chowdah

21 Jan 13 at 10:01 pm
this is the credo of “suicide bombers.”

Bill connelly on suicide bombers is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdNqUW5wwTE

every time there is a bang, the world is one wanker short

Jim Rose

21 Jan 13 at 10:02 pm
If only they really were suicide bombers instead of murdering innocent people when they decide to wreak havoc on other people.

Gab

21 Jan 13 at 10:04 pm
Could Grey be one of the et als in the famous Gergis et al paper now looking for something to do? You know the one, detrend? Yes we did, no we didn’t, ..er.. just needs a minor rewrite, ..er… maybe a major one, ..er.. stuff it, we’ve been on the ABC and Fairfax telling them that the current Southern Hemisphere temperature anomaly is unprecedented.

That’s enough for the plebs and the IPCC and no, you can’t have the fucking code and proxy data.

Grant B

21 Jan 13 at 10:24 pm
When did the word tolerant become loaded with bigotry? That one crept up on me, I must confess.

…the time has come for you to take the last step. You must love Big Brother. It is not enough to obey him: you must love him.

papachango

21 Jan 13 at 10:54 pm
You must love Big Brother. It is not enough to obey him: you must love him.

Gold, Papachango. No look of death for you if you please Mamalizzie.

Back to thread:

Russia is currently experiencing a ‘snow tsunami’ which ‘swallows streets, cars, buildings’. Info via HIA, who says it is really just weather. Just snow.

But big weather.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

21 Jan 13 at 11:20 pm
Could Grey be one of the et als in the famous Gergis et al paper now looking for something to do?

Clearly not or I would not be looking an Anthony Watt’s for long series of 10-Be ice core data.

anything else I can help people with?
Talk about casting pearls before swine – my friends at Skeptical Science would laughing their heads of if they could see this.

Grey

21 Jan 13 at 11:52 pm
Excellent, papachango.

Abu Chowdah

22 Jan 13 at 12:00 am
Just watched “Bullshit – The Vatican”. Honestly, can’t they do any research? Can’t they offer any criticisms that have not already been done to death and/or are not so insubstantial? Condoms in Africa? Really, thousands of faithful Catholics in Africa scrupulously heed the teaching on contraception while studiedly ignoring the teachings on adultery, promiscuity, etc? Really?

It was so lame; I don’t feel “butthurt” so much as lobotomized. I think we should admit, as mentioned above, that Penn and Teller are libertarian Michael Moores/ Jon Stewarts. The effort is sophomoric, and thus humorous, to the extent that your not the butt of these efforts. But there really is nothing more to them.

dover_beach

22 Jan 13 at 2:49 am
I think that’s accurate. It’s comedy, take it or leave it.

Abu Chowdah

22 Jan 13 at 2:56 am
Even the featured BULLSHIT here is, well, bullshit.

What precisely does the weirdo rock woman have to do with carbon credits or global warming? It comes across as lazy – Penn and Teller’s prominent absence from any of the interviews and mockery segments also leads me to believe these were outsourced. Voice-overs only. Even Michael Moore personally harrasses his prey.

C.L.

22 Jan 13 at 2:57 am
They were outsourced. They just do the studio crap and mention that in several shows.

Anyone who expects penetrating insights (rather than humorous ridicule) from those shows probably reads Michael Moore’s books as political analysis.

Abu Chowdah

22 Jan 13 at 3:21 am
You mean they’re not?

dover_beach

22 Jan 13 at 3:39 am
Sadly, millions think they are.

Abu Chowdah

22 Jan 13 at 3:40 am
Have Penn & Teller done BULLSHIT-Islam?

Gab

22 Jan 13 at 6:55 am
Booker does a number on the Brit Met Office, whose sneaky Christmas Eve revision of long term predictive graphs tells us not just that that they are untrustworthy, but that they were basically wrong!
Link

Blogstrop

22 Jan 13 at 7:27 am
Bullshit Islam? Australians’ right to offend is about to be curtailed by nanny Roxon’s attempt to outdo Big Brother.
Instead of ringing the alarm bells, the left media is lying doggo, or even worse, doing interviews like the one I just heard on ABC (al jazeera Australai) News Radio.
Lexie Metherall asked Tony Windsor what issues he had with the legislation, as if that would be quite a perverse thing. He responded as usual that he and his people were still looking into it, that they’d been on holidays didn’t you know, but he did have some problems which he wouln’t outline, and that it looked like all the emails he was getting could be from Sydney therefore the work or shock jocks but he did respect Jim Spigelman. So there.

Blogstrop

22 Jan 13 at 7:37 am
If Tony Windsor eent off a building and crushed a greenie, I would maybe give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was maybe trying to do a good thing but the greenie stopped him. Short of that I wouldn’t trust him to shed skin cells without some petty self-interested motive

WhaleHunt Fun

22 Jan 13 at 8:18 am
Michelle Grattan wets the bed today…

Climate change will scare off Victorian bushwalkers. Fme…

In a submission to the Senate inquiry on extreme weather events, Bushwalking Victoria says it has ”serious concerns about the effects of climate change on bushwalking”.

Skuter

22 Jan 13 at 12:09 pm
Bushwalking Victoria says it has ”serious concerns about the effects of climate change on bushwalking”.

…by contrast, 4WD clubs got excited by the idea that they would not have to keep as close an eye out for the brown paper baggers in the futures.

Token

22 Jan 13 at 12:47 pm
Gab, that would take actual courage.

Abu Chowdah

22 Jan 13 at 3:43 pm
serious concerns about the effects of climate change on bushwalking

did not know the sea was going to rise that far.

Jim Rose

27 Jan 13 at 12:18 pm

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