Liberating Aboriginal People from Violence

That is the title of Stephanie Jarrett’s book based on ten or twelve years of work starting as a Ph D at the Uni of Adelaide.

There is a reluctance to scrutinise and address the fundamental cultural generators of Aboriginal violence. Where violence is seen as part of culture, too often it is defended as the culture’s “right” to practice it. Above all, the separatist self-determination model maintains customs that are dangerous, particularly to women and young people. Hence, if we keep to a separatist, self-determination model, we will keep having to have crisis responses, major enquiries and interventions, and decades more of assaulted Aboriginal women and young people facing the terrible dilemma of abandoning their country, their community, to get some safety.

This is an interview with the author.

I am committed to the liberal-democratic principles of universal individual human rights and non-relativism regarding violence. My left-leaning feminism increases my outrage against the oppressions endured by remote Aboriginal women. Through my research, I came to understand that Aboriginal self-determination is a key causal factor in the persistent, high levels of violence against Aboriginal women.

She reported on one of the forgotten scandals of progressive (catastrophic) policy, the elimination of a scheme where some country Aboriginal families moved en masse to a suburb of Newcastle with support from the local community, resulting in 100% school attendance, and full employment.

The Aboriginal-initiated, voluntary Family Re-Settlement Program in New South Wales of the 1970s, where mainstream communities provided welcome and support for Aboriginal families establishing a new life in a city, is exemplary here. The program ceased when funding stopped because it was deemed assimilationist. Hopefully we are now more enlightened.

Don’t bet on it.

Jim Franklin and his wife organized an event in Sydney to promote the book with Bess Price in support and Gary Johns the Master of Ceremonies. Bess Price was hesitant at first and delivered a moving account of the suffering of her parents’ generation in frontier violence (violence from outside the Aboriginal community) and her perception and personal experience of violence against women (culturally condoned violence within the community).

Stephanie Jarrett was quite emotional, partly due to the impact of the stories that her book has to tell and possibly in part due to the shock of coming from the left and finding that the facts she found in her research did not fit the politically correct straight jacket that is supposed to be imposed on the truth.

Update.

Taking up johanna’s 9.55 comment “The best thing we could do for Aboriginal people is to apply the law impartially across the board. Yes, it would increase the rate of imprisonment, at least temporarily. But down the track, everybody would be much better off.”

That reminds me of a question to the speakers from a school teacher in the audience, along the lines – “what can be do about this in the new standard school curriculum because the issue of black deaths in custody is “out there” in the history and social studies courses there but community violence is not on the agenda?”

So the issue of black deaths in custody is “out there”. The statistics indicate that blacks are no more likely to die in custory than others. The issue is a racist beatup that completely sidesteps the central issues, one of which is the very different rate of imprisonment (even before blacks are put in gaol) and the other is the prevalance of violent incidents in some of the Aboriginal communities which according to Bess Price are seriously understimated in the official statistics that they collect in Canberra.

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109 Responses to Liberating Aboriginal People from Violence

  1. John H.

    Good on you Rafe. On other forums I have pointed out that from a developmental pschology and developmental neuroscience perspective the best way to reduce aboriginal childrens’ prospects is to place them in an isolated environment where they will never receive the types and quantities of stimulation that will engender behaviors, emotional and cognitive development that can help them reach their maximum potential. The policy as it now stands is not child abuse but I’m splitting legal hairs there.

    The argument I have mentioned above is so bloody obvious to any person familiar with the relevant literature that I am amazed that I have never read about it anywhere. It is basically common sense but there is a mountain of decent literature to support it. On other forums where I have put forward my view people have expressed dismay that even the professionals helping aborigines have refused to raise it. It’s a fucking disgrace and it really pisses me off.

    And congratulations on the recent win.

  2. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Rafe, this is an important post, because it shows just how hard it is for a leftist viewpoint to come to terms with some hard realities. Stephanie Jarret is brave, but she is perhaps only at the start of a journey others have taken, and she may never proceed any further. Many of us on the Cat have been through those ‘hold on a minute’ periods of questionning the received wisdoms we took away with us from our Gramsci’d university ‘education’, and have moved away from the need to be groomed and favoured socially and intellectually by the hard-core left luvvies. The romantic images held by the left, and by those aboriginal people (identifiers of all varieties) still in thrall to this ideology and vision, do no favours at all to yet another generation of aboriginal children condemned to a lesser life than they could have had if more people had been willing to admit to previous blind spots.

  3. MACK1

    At last after all these years a glimmer of hope. The dangerously naive leftists are finally beginning to realise that the best aboriginal policy consists of just one word: assimilation.

  4. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Rafe – I like the word ‘thrall’. For those who don’t know, it is a Norse Viking word – a ‘thrall’ was a slave.

    Slavery over the freedom to exercise one’s reason is also slavery of a sort. Just a thought for those lefties wavering over ditching their long-held simplistic approaches to understanding complex things and doing a re-think about a lot of it. If this sounds arrogant, and I think it does, then my defense is that I have many fewer certainties these days and am thus more open to persuasive and reasoned argument than I ever was before. Surely a good thing?

  5. Poor Old Rafe

    We need a climate of debate where we cut each other some slack about being wrong about things, provided we and they are prepared to keep learning.

    Based on the attitude, “You may be right and I may be wrong, and with an effort we can help each other to get closer to the truth.”

  6. Gerry

    I find it extraordinary that family violence is being touted still as “cultural” …..are people trying to tell me that a culture that enabled a race to live for thousands of years in a harsh and often unforgiving climate included wife beating and child abuse as an integral part of its culture …….

    Clearly what is being described as part of Aboriginal “culture” is nothing more than what it is …..

  7. maurie

    While ever our nation has a political party controlled by unions & dependent on social division for its existence any studies of topics such as aboriginal violence is quite simply a damn waste of time & effort.

  8. “I am committed to the liberal-democratic principles of universal individual human rights and non-relativism regarding violence. My left-leaning feminism increases my outrage against the oppressions endured by remote Aboriginal women.”

    So what about the men who get abused? Oh I see – they aren’t in the picture unless it is as an oppressor.
    Gotcha.

    Sorry guys, too old and bitter about what I’ve seen to be untainted by emotionalism.

  9. …but good luck with your efforts, Rafe.

  10. johanna

    In practical terms, it matters not one whit to what extent violence was or is part of Aboriginal culture. While women are being beaten to death and children are being raped in the course of business as usual in these cesspool communities, quibbles like this are bullsh*t.

    It is not about mindsets or culture, it is about behaviour. Change the behaviour and the rest will follow – or not, it doesn’t matter.

    The real issue is that the law is selectively enforced because of “cultural sensitivities” and self-determination policies that entrench bullying, nepotism, corruption and violence. Rivers of money and power pour into these communities without the basic accountability that we require in other spheres of life.

    Many years ago, I was involved in the investigation of an influential Aboriginal Land Council in NSW. The Treasury officer I worked with bluntly told me that “if these people (the Land Council officials) weren’t Aboriginal, they’d be in jail.” Millions had been siphoned off. Needless to say, nothing came of it.

    The best thing we could do for Aboriginal people is to apply the law impartially across the board. Yes, it would increase the rate of imprisonment, at least temporarily. But down the track, everybody would be much better off.

  11. Poor Old Rafe

    Thanks Winston. I am just here to help.

  12. Alfonso

    Just another failed primitive culture that must desperately crank up some motivation to adopt successful Western cultural values.

    Lots of funding and careers are dependent on aboriginal failure.

  13. Tom

    We need a climate of debate where we cut each other some slack about being wrong about things

    I can’t see it happening, Rafe. The left is now in a gloating ascendancy, proclaiming itself the one true way of the future because shutup. Australia wasn’t as divided as it is now during the Whitlam years. Buildings will be burnt when Abbott takes office and the battle lines will be redrawn, with the zombies still controlling state and federal public services, most statutory authorities, the media and academia. The left will not rest until the West and the wealth on which it is built are destroyed. Rational discussion and compromise are distant memories. It’s the interests of the majority trying to withstand dictatorship by the minority and the minority is winning because the majority won’t use the minority’s tactics of constant lying, subterfuge and intimidation.

    Lizzie is right. Being a leftist and a feminist, Stephanie Jarrett has probably done all the iconoclasm she will will ever do and will retreat into the comfort of leftism, in which commonsense and logic are regarded as a conspiracy which must be opposed because shutup.

  14. Jim Rose

    Rafe, debate is not about learning. it is about polarisation. see http://www.yalelawjournal.org/pdf/110-1/NEW%20SUNSTEIN.pdf

    Group polarization is among the most robust patterns found in deliberating bodies

  15. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    My left-leaning feminism increases my outrage

    Yes Stephanie, it increases my outrage too, but in ways that may yet be foreign to you. What a shame you apparently know something, but close your eyes tightly to many other obvious things that can be seen if only you look.

    Left-leaning feminism has destroyed many women’s lives, livelihoods and capacity to recognise hypocricy.

    There is a true meaning to misogyny. Check it against some of the outcomes of left-leaning feminism. You may be surprised.

  16. Poor Old Rafe

    Jim that is a trickle-down effect from the ruling obsessions in traditional philosophy and theology and it needs to be corrected at that high level by the best modern thinking to correct institutionalised “true belief” attitudes that are promoted by academic philosophy and all “true belief” religions.

    On the ground, all people of good will need to do whatever can be done to promote problem-solving rather than ritualistic point-scoring in debate.

  17. .

    Under the power that the Federal Government has to enforce protection of human rights, I believe the intervention should exist wherever law and order has broken down.

    I don’t care. It’s not heavy handed to have a strong police presence to stop assault happening every day and children under the age of ten getting syphlis because of intermittent sexual assaults.

    These problems aren’t isolated to Aborigines either, they are just generally at their worst in those communities.

  18. dianeh

    Lizzie, very well said.

  19. Poor Old Rafe

    There is a massive amount of goodwill in the community to help Aborigines who are prepared to help themselves. That goodwill has been undermined by the radical activists of all colours but they are being challenged by the likes of Bess Price who are making the hard yards. They need to know that their efforts have support in the broad community and we need to help every way we can.

    Years ago at the Fall of the Wall I contemplated the idea of clinics where disillusioned leftists could get help to come to grips with reality. But they just ramped up their efforts and went on living in denial (on public funds). Much the same response as those cults who beieve that the world was about to end, when it did not they persisted in their beliefs anyway.

  20. Jim Rose

    hammygar, the death sentence was abolished in australia a long time ago.

    the number of Indigenous Australians who die in custody is roughly proportional to the total number who are imprisoned.

    A key conclusion of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody was:

    the immediate causes of the deaths do not include foul play, in the sense of unlawful, deliberate killing of Aboriginal prisoners by police and prison officers

  21. dianeh

    These problems aren’t isolated to Aborigines either, they are just generally at their worst in those communities.

    True and it is not cultural, it is caused by drug and drink. There are far too many kids coming to school in dirty clothes without their face washed or hair done, and not been fed. There are non Aboriginal families that are the same.

    The cause of violence and child abuse (sexual, violence or neglect) is not cultural. Its cause stems from substance abuse. This essay talks about the drinking cycle in aboriginal communities.

    https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2012/197/1/aboriginal-women-alcohol-and-road-fetal-alcohol-spectrum-disorder

  22. Jim Rose

    thanks rafe, milton friedman did not believe arguments changed opinions much.

    Government policy about inflation and unemployment has been at the centre of political controversy. Ideological war has raged over these matters. Yet the drastic change that has occurred in economic theory has not been a result of ideological warfare.

    It has not resulted from divergent political beliefs or aims. It has responded almost entirely to the force of events: brute experience proved far more potent than the strongest of political or ideological preferences

    Milton Friedman: Nobel Memorial Lecture

  23. Poor Old Rafe

    That is a response to a comment from hammy which I trashed because it dropped the g word.

  24. H B Bear

    You could put white, yellow or black people in small, sub-economic communities hundreds or thousands of kilometres from job opportunities, meaningful levels of health and educational services, dependent on government and public servants for just about everything and they would all look the same after a few years.

    Nova will fix it.

  25. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    a moving account of the suffering of her parents’ generation in frontier violence (violence from outside the Aboriginal community)

    Yes, this did happen. I have just finished reading James Boyce’s ‘Van Diemen’s Land’ which deals with frontier violence drawing on oral accounts of a time when bog Irish wombat and wallaby-eating convicts deliberately living far away from civilisation reverted in the bush to simple huts and carried out their own versions of cultural contact – and these settlers were not so different in those early times from the aboriginal people they displaced. Violence was officially proscribed towards aborigines but it seems to have been endemic in this situation of culture contact, cultural borrowing on both sides, and conflict over resources. It was bad and probably was in other parts of the continent too, as well as from what we know of the abuses of the ‘protection’ period. Not to be forgotten, but also to be seen as another time and place, as I see my own parents trapped in something bad, very bad, violent and bad for a child. I’m sad for Bess.

  26. hammygar

    Thanks Winston. I am just here to help.

    And to censor apparently. Perhaps a list of “banned” words would help foster free debate, Rafe. I just love it when the fascists yell about freedom of speech they don’t have any belief in anyway.

    Oops – I just dropped the f word. Banned again!

  27. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    “On the ground, all people of good will need to do whatever can be done to promote problem-solving rather than ritualistic point-scoring in debate.”

    Rafe, I do agree and try to do this elsewhere. However on a site like the Cat please excuse me if occasionally I indulge in a little bit of ritualistic pointing out. 🙂

  28. hammygar

    hammygar, the death sentence was abolished in australia a long time ago.

    the number of Indigenous Australians who die in custody is roughly proportional to the total number who are imprisoned.

    Jim Rose entirely missed the point in my banned comment.

    The point is that aboriginals are imprisoned at a far greater rate the non-aborigines. This means that more individuals among them will die in custody than if the number imprisoned is proportional to population.

    In other words, many aborigines will die who would otherwise not have died in that time frame.

    Rafe can be as squeamish as he likes about the g word, but I certainly called it homicide on the basis of race. Look at that in your thesaurus, Rafe. Or are also going to now ban the h word too?

  29. JC

    Kero

    Stop flipping out. It’s Rafe’s thread and he can do what he likes with it.

    Your observation has a couple of problems, you meathead.
    1. If you’re attempting to assert that more aboriginals are in jail because of some concocted racism, then prove it with evidence.

    2. If you think there’s a racial imbalance what solution would you propose? Should aboriginals poteetially guilty of an offense no longer be charged… Do it on a quota system through say a lottery? Or would you imprison more whites even those that are innocent in order to get the ratio more to your liking.

    Go!

    No use whining, Kero boy. This is a solutions based blog after all.

  30. hammygar

    It’s Rafe’s thread and he can do what he likes with it.

    Of course he can, and he does. But never let him ever again be taken seriously if he bleats on about freedom of speech. He’s now forever disqualified!

  31. JC

    But never let him ever again be taken seriously if he bleats on about freedom of speech. He’s now forever disqualified!

    Yes coach Kero.

    (You’re confused or just trolling.)

  32. Jim Rose

    In Canada, a big place like australia with lots of remote places, Peter Kuhn found that residence away from an Indian reserve, residence outside the Yukon and Northwest Territories, and intermarriage with non-Aboriginals are among the most powerful predictors of Aboriginal labour market outcomes.

    • An observationally identical individual would earn twelve percent more if he had mixed (Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal) origins rather than purely Aboriginal origins.

    • North American Aboriginals have intermarried to a very high degree with non-Aboriginals

    Peter Kuhn argues that this evidence is strongly suggestive of one common explanation: the “contact/ assimilation” hypothesis similar to the immigration literature. skills (and perhaps cultural traits) acquired via close contact with the majority culture increase Aboriginal economic success, at least as measured by monetary income and participation in work for pay

    Kuhn concluded that one of their most reliable routes to economic success has been assimilation into that culture, in the sense of leaving reserves, living in cities, and marrying non-Aboriginals.

    I find his conclusion to be a long march to the urban wage premium. I am a simple country boy who would still be a bank teller if I stayed in my home town.

    HT: http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~pjkuhn/Research%20Papers/aborig.pdf

  33. Poor Old Rafe

    Introduction of the idea of genocide in the Aboriginal debate was the most stupid and unhelpful move on the record. I do not want this thread derailed on that account and I will feel free to delete hammy comments that pursue that line. Please take them to the open thread if you insist but I want to keep this thread focussed on real issues.

    I will most likely let them go because my committment to free speech is stronger than my irritation with trolls. It will help if people do not feed the trolls. I will be out for some time anyway.

  34. Jim Rose

    aboriginals are imprisoned at a far greater rate because they are poor.

    poor men generally end up in prison more often. why is it that so few aboriginal women end up in prision?

    in the USA, more than half of all black men without a high-school diploma go to prison at some time in their lives.

    I do not welcome falls in prison populations as long as there are unsolved crimes.

    p.s. the urbane and caring Dutch found that ’10 strikes and you are out’ affected 5% of the prison population, but reduced property crime rates by 25% to 40%. prolific offenders could be sentenced to a prison term 10 times longer than usual.

  35. My brother lived in Lightning Ridge for a while and was at a barby and met some indigenous neighbours and was getting to know them, pointing out his wife etc, and later one of the women asked in a discussion about his wife “Do you bash her?” He replied, taken aback, “er…no?” and the woman just smirked and looked him up and down with contempt.

  36. thefrollickingmole

    hammygar

    I had 3 bail cases on Monday, 2 indigenous one non indigenous…

    Results, one indigenous bailed, restraining order
    White: chose to plea guilty on the spot, sentenced (breatho)
    Indigenous2: Remanded in custody, 8 offences since January culminating in a serious assault on his partner.

    Now according to race based quotas I should have released all 3?
    Sent the “white” bloke to jail to balance out the Aboriginal bloke kept in custody?

    Or just judge, as best I can, on the merits of each case brought before me?

  37. Jim Rose

    Asian American incarceration rates are generally lower than European American rates. why is that so in so racist a society?
    see http://migrationinformation.org/charts/rumbaut-table1-jun06.cfm

    among the foreign born, the highest incarceration rate by far (4.5%) was observed among island-born Puerto Ricans.

    the lowest incarceration rates among Latin American immigrants are for the least educated: Salvadorans and Guatemalans (0.52%), and Mexicans (0.70%).

  38. thefrollickingmole

    Jim Rose

    I had a tongue in cheek chat with my copper mate and said to him “if I gave every copper in town one person to shoot what reduction in crime do you think that would achieve”..

    He guessed at least 50%.
    There are a tiny, tiny minority of people who commit a huge % of crime volumes, thats any race.

    On of the terrible results of making it “harder” to jail Aboriginal offenders is the damage that does to other Aborigines.
    In general the people stealing, vandalizing, assaulting are doing the majority of it to their own community group.

  39. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Rafe, as others have suggested, the solution lies in assimilation to the wider culture, but with a recognition that origins and heritage are important to people, but not a romanticising of that heritage. I have Viking heritage and that is important to me, for instance, even though I know how rough, crude and nasty some Vikings could be. That was their time, their place, life was hard and short, religion was cruel, women were ignored and abused. Yet these people and this culture made some good and admirable achievements too.

    Et toujours la Valkyrie, moi. We sometimes like to feel things about our mythologies. Aboriginal people have beautiful myths and an ancient religious tradition to be proud of. Maori people have been called the Vikings of the Pacific. All peoples need to assimilate to the contemporary world. Let it happen.

  40. Jim Rose

    on bashing her, Longitudinal child studies show that children witness considerable low level brawling and some rather nasty violence too.

    Men and women reported similar experiences of victimization and perpetration of domestic violence. Both men and women are perpetrators and victims.

  41. Jim Rose

    thefrollickingmole, good story

    an old uni friend was a solid socialist. he became a career prosecutor because he wanted to help to poor. the poor were the leading victims of crime.

  42. JC

    ….the poor were the leading victims of crime.

    It would be interesting to get the full stats for Aboriginal on aboriginal crime.

    Kero obviously thinks aboriginal victims of crime have far less rights that the perpetrators.

  43. thefrollickingmole

    Jim Rose

    Your lefty mate has grasped the right end of a shitty stick..
    Until people are protected by the rule of law they arent a functioning part of society.

    For example (this may have changed there was talk of it), if an Aboriginal man was to assault his Aboriginal partner the ALS would only represent the man in court.

    Thats a pretty strong/bad message to send to that community group.

  44. the lowest incarceration rates among Latin American immigrants are for the least educated: Salvadorans and Guatemalans (0.52%), and Mexicans (0.70%).

    Could that be because they have the most to lose by being caught breaking the law (deportation, losing their green card [if they have one] and being black-banned for life), and thus are on their best behavior?

    among the foreign born [sic], the highest incarceration rate by far (4.5%) was observed among island-born Puerto Ricans.

    Maybe they’re not as worried about committing crimes, because they’re US citizens by birth and thus aren’t risking immediate deportation & black-banning?

  45. Jim Rose

    the ALS represents the man in court because it is a criminal defence service. the DPP prosecutes.

  46. thefrollickingmole

    This link will take you to a lot of figures, seems slightly crippled by lack of info according to its own speil.

    Eg: An Aboriginal person is 11 times more likely to be arrested than a non-Aboriginal.

    An Aboriginal female is 12 times more likely to be the victim of an assault than non-Aboriginal.

    Zoom down to section headed “Victimization of Aboriginal people” there quite a few charts and figures there.

    Its still an ideologically crippled paper, being curiously incurious as to the races of the perps in the victimization, or even whether the increased numbers of Aboriginals jailed was a result of offences committed rather than police “bias”

  47. thefrollickingmole

    Jim Rose

    Sorry I should have been clearer. The ALS sees its job to keep the indigenous man out of jail, regardless of the probable effects on the woman/family.

    So while it may be keeping with their operational guidelines, it may actually be causing greater wrong.

  48. Nuke Gray

    If Aborigines are violent now, can we afford to let them get rich enough to afford TV sets? TV causes violence, doesn’t it? Keep them poor, and peaceful!!!

  49. Woolfe

    TFM,
    But isn’t that the role of any defense lawyer?

  50. An Aboriginal female is 12 times more likely to be the victim of an assault than non-Aboriginal.

    #WarOnWomen is only a Thing when it’s white women being victimised.

  51. johanna

    @ thefrollickingmole

    Quite so.

    The ALS has the perverse outcome of assisting perpetrators and ignoring victims.

    I don’t deny that there are a lot of nasty racist cops and jailers, especially in country areas. But the ALS has gone well beyond addressing that, and spends a lot of its time and money defending those who have assaulted or killed other Aboriginal people.

    Very sad.

  52. thefrollickingmole

    Woolfe

    Yes, but if an organizations charter is to provide justice it should take into account the race of the victim as well.

    So Id have no great problem with the ALS representing an Aboriginal man accused of assaulting a “white” person, Id be inclined to think its missing the point if its defending the same bloke for assaulting another Aboriginal.

    I am quite prepared to be called wrong on this, its just a perversity that irritates that an organization set up to assist Aboriginals may be causing some really negative outcomes.

    johanna

    Around 90% of arrests made rely on a description or “hard” evidence (fingerprints etc). A “racist” policeman cant make a description change or fingerprint evidence out of thin air.
    There may be racist coppers, but their ability to use prejudice to jail someone is minuscule. (which is good)

  53. “Based on the attitude, “You may be right and I may be wrong, and with an effort we can help each other to get closer to the truth.””

    You’ll never get anywhere in lefty la-la-land with that attitude, Rafe. Of course, simply getting a copy of the leftist songsheet would be much easier. That’s fine if you’re happy to be frequently wrong and misguided.

  54. “I find it extraordinary that family violence is being touted still as “cultural” ”

    You could argue that in Australian society, family violence was cultural as boys getting beaten by their drunken dads was widespread in decades past. Moral relativism is simply an excuse to make any argument you damned well please.

  55. It’s worth pointing out that as long as we accept aboriginal violence, proponents of sharia law will always have a precedent to point to.

  56. “And to censor apparently. ”

    Hammy, he hasn’t impinged on your right to free speech in any way. He has merely impinged on your imagined right to use someone else’s platform to spout your drivel. No one’s stopping you from getting your own blog, newspaper or TV station. I’d love to see the ratings (or lack thereof) from the Hammygar TV station.

  57. boy on a bike

    You could put white, yellow or black people in small, sub-economic communities hundreds or thousands of kilometres from job opportunities, meaningful levels of health and educational services, dependent on government and public servants for just about everything and they would all look the same after a few years.

    They don’t have to be distant. Hell, there’s a houso community down the road from me that’s 10km distant from the CBD and its a failed state in minature. Multi generational welfare dependency, drug dependency plus the hot spot in the area for domestic violence, assault, burglary etc.

    What really pisses me off is that the residents are right on the water – in Sydney! Multi-million dollar views, all on our dime.

  58. hammygar

    He has merely impinged on your imagined right to use someone else’s platform to spout your drivel.

    I’ve never challenged his right to filter his thread. He is entitled to do what he likes here. I’m simply criticising his hypocrisy is espousing free speech when he doesn’t sincerely believe in it for people he disagrees with. It’s a legitimate criticism, although I agree I don’t have a “right” to have it published here.

  59. Token

    Are you still whining Hammy? That got tired 2 hours ago.

    Your trolling license is going to be revoked soon if you don’t shape up son.

  60. jupes

    I find it extraordinary that family violence is being touted still as “cultural”

    But it is. Aboriginal culture is tribal culture.

    A tribe is a mini totalitarian state. Offend against the tribe and you cop it.

    Anything that perpetuates tribal society is doing the members of that tribe a great disservice. That’s why the Mabo judgement and subsequent legislation was a black day for Australia.

  61. Gab

    Yet another thread derailed because some attention-seeking lefty can’t stay on topic. Amazing though, they never ever remark on gillard’s restrictions on free speech but bitterly complain about some imagined slight on a private-run blog.

    How about we get back to what really matters, the subject of this thread, rather than indulging the rantings of a lefty blockhead.

  62. John H.

    It would be interesting to get the full stats for Aboriginal on aboriginal crime.

    When the intervention started I went looking for a proxy on aboriginal sexual crime. I chose STD infection rates amongst teenagers. Go check it out sometime, you will be shocked.

    You can’t get that JC because contrary to the view of some that the high arrest rates represent police racism the police do not like arresting aborigines because it becomes a legal and paperwork nightmare.

    Hunter gatherers often express high levels of violence in their culture. A old study found that the murder rate amongst the nice little bushmen exceeded that of New York in the bad times. Or go and read Chagnon’s account of the Yanomamo.

    There are many factors driving aboriginal violence. The environment and diet of aboriginal children does not promote optimal development of the frontal lobes, these being very important in inhibiting our more wayward tendencies.

  63. Louis Hissink

    The whole problem is better described as the result of maintaining Aparheid in Australia which, come to think of it, is essentially multiculturalism. Aboriginal violence in order to solve disputes is the usual social mechanism for nomads living at the subsitence level. Australian Aboriginals were living like that about 200 years ago but to expect them to continue living that Roussian existence while at the same time interacting with a civilised society will always lead to the mess being discussed here.

    Cutting to the chase, it’s egalitarianism in outcome that is the problem – based on an appalling lack of understanding why humans act.

    Some of the stories I have heard from exploration teams in the remote west about progressive academics living among the Aboriginals engaged in anthropological studies are quite bizarre – those academics are generally hard left socialists living a delusion and these idiots drive the present policies.

    Aborioginal society is essentially totalitarian and its methods, while unsophisticated, of establishing peace are no different than the ones proposed and used by the present totalitarian incumbents in Canberra using the law and regulations.

    The late Sir Paul Hasluck was quite correct in his policy of assimilation. That the left in this country despised him and his policies IS the problem.

  64. johanna

    the frollickingmole quoted me and said:

    johanna

    Around 90% of arrests made rely on a description or “hard” evidence (fingerprints etc). A “racist” policeman cant make a description change or fingerprint evidence out of thin air.
    There may be racist coppers, but their ability to use prejudice to jail someone is minuscule. (which is good)
    —————–
    fm, having been personally involved with a couple of cases (one resulting in a death in custody) of Aboriginal men at the receiving end of ignorant, racist, redneck country coppers, your statistics are not particularly reassuring. Only 10% – hey, no worries, right?

    That said, there is no doubt that cops everywhere have a lot to put up with from some members of a self-destructive community who have learned to cry “racism” whenever they are pulled up for breaking the law. I mean, that dickhead Anthony Mundine called Arthur Beetson, a sporting legend and proud Australian, an “Uncle Tom.” Presumably that reflects on the fact that AM was never appointed the Chairman of Selectors.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, application of the law to the theft, fraud and corruption that goes on in Aboriginal organisations almost never happens. It is much easier to throw a few people into the paddywagon after a drunken brawl.

  65. hammygar

    The environment and diet of aboriginal children does not promote optimal development of the frontal lobes

    This is pure 19th century white supremacist racism based on the perceived inferiority (aka sub-humanity) of “savages”. Disgraceful.

  66. JC

    The environment and diet of aboriginal children does not promote optimal development of the frontal lobes

    This is pure 19th century white supremacist racism based on the perceived inferiority (aka sub-humanity) of “savages”. Disgraceful.

    Trolling again, Kero?

  67. John H.

    This is pure 19th century white supremacist racism based on the perceived inferiority (aka sub-humanity) of “savages”. Disgraceful.

    Bullshit, the concept was first elaborated by Lewontin, who hates genetic determinism, and recently elaborated upon by Adele Diamond in regard to white children living in impoverished environments. The results of her study were terrifying and raise fundamental questions about the implications of allowing children to be raised in environments that do not maximise their developmental potential. It is why I am utterly opposed to the claims of some that irrespective of one’s upbringing one can overcome any shortcomings arising therefrom. Naive mentalism.

    Go away boy you bother me.

  68. pablo

    A few years ago when ‘the block’ in Redfern was going through one of it’s regular upheavals, Premier Bob Carr proposed some indigenous families move out to safer suburbs. This suggestion of ‘dispersal’ was greeted with dismay. Perhaps the same solution to recent inter-racial violence in Logan, outside Brisbane might have crossed Premier Newman’s mind, suggesting it is not really a left/right issue, just practical self preservation.

  69. .

    John H

    Nutrition is a necessary antecedent to economic development. You are quite correct. This is an old paper but it is quite good and easy to read.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1573447188010174

    Handbook of Development Economics
    Volume 1, 1988, Pages 631–711

    Chapter 14 Health and nutrition
    Jere R. Behrman
    University of Pennsylvania
    Anil B. Deolalikar*
    Harvard University

    Do not worry about the contemptible fuckwit, Hammygar.

  70. .

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, application of the law to the theft, fraud and corruption that goes on in Aboriginal organisations almost never happens. It is much easier to throw a few people into the paddywagon after a drunken brawl.

    It’s not just that. In regional NSW, even arresting with probable cause is litigious. The ALS has no real purpose intervening in this stage. This is what makes crime so prevalent. It must end, even under Federal intervention.

  71. Jannie

    The Left has managed to benefit from posing as the Saviours of “Aboriginals” (really a highly diverse grouping – but seems to be dominated by the pale urban left). They own it, they own the media, nothing the Right can do to change that.

    It will be changed by black people, who are starting to realise that the Left have institutionalised Aboriginal dystopia.

  72. Gerry

    Jupes – tribal violence has no relevance to domestic violence …the tribal violence you’re talking about ( I presume) is related to tribal judgements related to breaking of tribal laws which were in place to maintain the tribe’s integrity ….just as our laws incarcerate people …

    We are talking about bashing women and children ( at the very least) ….quite a different thing altogether ….

  73. Helen Armstrong

    I have not heard Bess’ talk (any chance of transcript, Rafe?) and am personally sorry that her parents suffered as part of frontier violence. It must have been similar to violence her tribe suffered and or implemented over many hundreds or thousands of years. These tribes were not peacefully existing with and alongside each other, they were warring and raiding women all the time followed by reprisals. Often alliances with other tribes were formed for the purpose of peace and war. No different, it might be said, from any white tribe. (Ref Petter Sutton’s book ‘The Politics of Suffering’)

    The Warlpuri, Bess’s tribe were known to be particularly violent and war like. (I remember at school there was a fear of even playing football against them in the inter community football matches.) I also remember the story of two guys who were yard building having to hide all night under upturned toughing to protect them from the spear attacks in this country. (Maybe 80 years ago)

    I also recollect a study some years ago which found, that on a per capita basis, deaths were even between black and white on the (at least Northern) Australian frontier.

    This is not to take away from Bess or her Family’s personal experience. Nor is it to deflect – as most lefties would try and use as an excuse for – from what the issue is today.

    Today there is violence against children and women that is unimaginable to those outside the sphere of pain and anguish and minute to minute living that is occurring on many if not most communities.

    Literally rivers of cash have poured into these places, the outcome of which has been to perpetuate the misery.

    I am beginning to wonder if it might be in the best interests for these people to leave their communities and move to town to live.

    Access to schools, health, safety and jobs would be better, and the cost of maintaining community houses would be much cheaper. Money saved could go into health education and law in the towns.

    I’ll probably get shot down for suggesting it, but I cannot see how more of the same old same old will have any hope within it for the abused.

  74. Helen Armstrong

    quite a different thing altogether ….

    Fraid not, Gerry.

    From the Quadrant interview

    Q: In exploring your topic, one guesses that a substantial weight of documentary evidence must have been more or less readily available. Was it difficult to find your sources? Why has nobody tapped them before?”

    A: There is ample documentation of pre- and early contact traditional violence from across Australia, including by early French navigators, First Fleet officers, explorers, missionaries and anthropologists. Such accounts are publicly accessible in bookshops, libraries and online. Stephen Webb’s palaeopathological study of skeletal remains is categoric evidence of commonplace cranial and other bone injuries caused by assault in pre-contact Australia for thousands of years.

    There is also accessible documentation of continuing traditional violence, such as submissions for the recognition of customary law from Aboriginal communities to the Australian Law Reform Commission. There are recent, fine scholars who have tapped into this evidence, most notably Joan Kimm, Louis Nowra, and Peter Sutton. However this evidence is still being denied or evaded, and the strategies indicated by the pre-contact origins of today’s violence have yet to be faced up to.

  75. Gerry

    Helen – is it clear from the research that violence towards women and children was a cultural tradition ….

  76. Helen Armstrong

    Sadly, Gerry, yes. And it breaks my heart. And we must do something – something that allows aboriginal people to step away from it, without being made to feel shame that they are deserting their culture. It is just one bit of it, and we must support the Bess’s and Garry’s and Alison’s and all who have the courage to speak out by echoing their words and spreading their message so it can no longer be hidden under the mantle of sacred culture.

  77. thefrollickingmole

    johanna:

    My town(30,000 or so people) has a reasonably high (for Australia) Aboriginal % of the population. (Census wont give me the % for some reason) The Aboriginal % would be well under 20%.

    Well over 75% of the court list is Aboriginal clients.

    Your last point is important though, without low level policing and enforcement of “norms” you are setting Aboriginal people up for continued failure.

    Eg: Customers were victims of a “run through”, 10-15 people go to a place, trash it as much as they can in 10 minutes and run off..
    So a person can go from reasonably set up (goods wise) to rooted within 10 minutes. Even if the offenders are caught there will be no meaningful restitution for the damage caused.

    I have a few Aboriginal businessmen in town, they are quite scathing about the “drag em down” mentality of some of their group.

    Im hoping the mining boom lasts long enough to get a lot of younger Aboriginal blokes working for good money, show them opportunities the naysayers claim they cant have.

  78. Dangph

    Stephen Webb’s palaeopathological study of skeletal remains is categoric evidence of commonplace cranial and other bone injuries caused by assault in pre-contact Australia for thousands of years.

    How do we know that was domestic violence?

  79. Helen Armstrong

    How do we know that was domestic violence?
    Peter Sutton p 99 The Politics’ of suffering.

    “Plentiful early contact reports by colonial observers, including some sympathetic characters like John Edward Eyre (35), and accounts by later field anthropologists(36), that make it clear that earlier and similar versions of what is now called ‘domestic violence’, ‘family violence’ or ‘community violence’ were also widespread and frequent in Australia under ‘traditional’ conditions. ‘

    this in spite of

    “The evidence is also clear that formal rules governed physical conflict to a greater extent than now, and the dramatic nature of alcohol was almost entirely absent. Nevertheless, rates of interpersonal violence were extremely high then also, and marital and sexual relationships and the various kinds of jealousies were chief among the prime causes of conflict than as now.

  80. Yobbo

    When the intervention started I went looking for a proxy on aboriginal sexual crime. I chose STD infection rates amongst teenagers.

    How can you be sure that this is a proxy for crime? How do you know it isn’t just a result of these communities being more promiscuous on average?

    The Chlamydia rate in Japan is the highest in the developed world. Japan is pretty unique in that their religion and culture places no special emphasis on either sex or virginity. As a result, Japanese kids are fucking each other like rabbits as soon as they enter high school, and nobody really cares.

    It doesn’t have anything to do with sexual abuse. Just sex.

    I’m not saying that there isn’t a high incidence of sexual abuse in Aboriginal Communities, obviously there is. But using STD rates to measure this is pretty silly when it’s obvious that Aboriginal kids are having a lot more consensual sex with each other too. There isn’t a hell of a lot else to do in a remote Aboriginal community.

  81. Helen Armstrong

    I guess if they are underage, then the sex is a crime.

  82. Poor Old Rafe

    “It will be changed by black people, who are starting to realise that the Left have institutionalised Aboriginal dystopia.”

    Yes there was a huge breakthrough when John Howard and Noel Pearson agreed that the system was broken. The next was the emergence of Bess and friends. It really comes back to the community itself, even while we give aid and support and try to put in place policies that don’t actually make things worse.

  83. John H.

    Fair point Yobbo. It may not be a crime but it is surely a sign of a dysfunctional society. For example, there were several reports cases of gonorrhea in aboriginal children, none in the comparative groups. Syphilus was x40 in the aboriginal teenagers. It is hard to imagine how teenagers are acquiring these diseases from each other. Do Japanese teenagers express these diseases at such differential rates compared to the other populations or is it only chlamydia?

  84. John H.

    Chyamydia is very common so I’m not sure you example is that relevant.

    Recurring Chlamydial infections are prevalent in young women ages 14-19, according to a Yale Department of Epidemiology and Public Health study. Over half of the study’s 411 participants were initially diagnosed with chlamydia and then, in a rate higher than previously recorded, nearly 30 percent reported repeated infection throughout the four-year Project.

    UK – In the UK the number of new cases diagnosed each year has been steadily rising since the mid-1990s – it is now the most commonly diagnosed STI in the country. In 2004, 104,733 new diagnoses of Chlamydia were made – in 2005 there were 109,958 new diagnoses. According to the NHS (National Health Service), UK, women under the age of 25 who are sexually active have a 10% chance of becoming infected with C. trachomatis. The peak age range for male infection risk is 20 to 30 years.

  85. Dangph

    ‘domestic violence’, ‘family violence’ or ‘community violence’ were also widespread and frequent in Australia under ‘traditional’ conditions. ‘

    Thanks, Helen, I didn’t know that. I must say that’s rather disappointing to hear from a faith-in-humanity point of view. I wonder if domestic violence is common in hunter-gatherer societies in general.

  86. Yobbo

    All STDs with the exception of HIV/AIDS are very common in Japan. Chlamydia is the most common because it is asymptomatic in the majority of cases, so it goes untreated and is spread more easily.

    Japan has been spared HIV/AIDS to a fair extent because it has traditionally been very isolationist and hostile to immigration (and also, it’s fair to say, overtly racist). But there’s no guarantee that won’t change in the future.

  87. Yobbo

    I guess if they are underage, then the sex is a crime.

    I guess you can call a 15 year old boy having sex with a 15 year old a crime if you want. If that’s the case though, at least 30% of all humans are guilty of sex crimes.

    50% in the more sexually liberal European countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway, where the average age losing your virginity is 15.x

  88. Yobbo

    It may not be a crime but it is surely a sign of a dysfunctional society.

    Some people might say that a society which forbids what comes naturally, forbids using condoms to prevent the unwanted results of that, and even forbids masturbation to relive the evolutionary pressure to procreate is a dysfunctional society.

    Let’s be honest here. 14 year olds are not “children”. They are not adults either, but the evolutionary urge to procreate manifests itself in most humans well before the age of 18.

  89. JC

    Yobbo

    Japan a success story. If there are issues to do with STD’s they succeed at pretty much what they do. Sex for a teenage Japanese doesn’t appear to be an issue in later life.

    But we’re not talking about successful group here. Cutting to the chase, we’re talking about what appears to be abject failure. By almost every single metric, aboriginals are failing. It’s tough to accept, but that’s how it looks.

    It’s a little shallow to be comparing the Japanese to aboriginals and thinking you can draw any conclusions accept the stark differences in social success and failure.

  90. Jim Rose

    Reducing Aboriginal violence entails fundamental cultural change

    cultures change by people leaving it. working class cultures of domestic violence changed by more arrests and by divorce becoming financial viable.

  91. Yobbo

    But we’re not talking about successful group here. Cutting to the chase, we’re talking about what appears to be abject failure. By almost every single metric, aboriginals are failing. It’s tough to accept, but that’s how it looks.

    I’m not disagreeing. I’m just saying that the rate of STDs in itself is not a good way to measure the rate of sexual assaults.

  92. jupes

    And we must do something – something that allows aboriginal people to step away from it, without being made to feel shame that they are deserting their culture.

    They need to desert their culture. That is what is holding them back.

  93. jupes

    I wonder if domestic violence is common in hunter-gatherer societies in general.

    Endemic in PNG.

  94. Gerry

    Thanks for that information Helen …intuitively I doesn’t make sense but there you are ..!
    I only hope that strong women (not those mouthpieces for some of the lousy men who have been in power) continue to get stronger and can protect the children.
    The Aboriginal people need to start respecting their traditions that make them value each other.

  95. John H.

    Yobbo,

    The real issue here is not comparisons with Japan but rather that the studies in Australia were compared with Australian non-aboriginal teenagers and the differences in infection rates are remarkable. For example, it is not likely the the huge difference in syphilis infection rates can be explained by differing sexual mores amongst teenagers because teenagers everywhere are merrily rooting their way to adulthood. Even chlamydia is accelerated in teenagers is x8 compared to non-aboriginals, a result I find to difficult to square with just increased sexual activity amongst aboriginal children; though the data clearly shows that is the case(more frequent, younger ages).

    The other issue is that numerous reports indicate a serious under reporting of rates of child abuse. That was why I went looking for a proxy. And taken together, the increased incidence of STDs in aboriginal teenagers points to something more than just more teenage-teenage sexual activity.

    That a behavior is natural does not justify it. Culture is very much about containing the less than desirable aspects of human behavior. There is a very good reason why so many religions have strict sexual mores: STDs have been a plague on humanity so any culture that even to a limited extent can restrain sexual activity has a selection advantage.

    Aborigines need to abandon their culture.
    ——-
    From my archives:

    In 2009, the highest age-specific chlamydia notification rate in WA, occurred in the 15-19 age group for Aboriginal people living in the Kimberley region (12,534 per 100,000 population), which was eight times the overall age-specific rate for 15-19 year olds across WA (1,567 per 100,000 population) [13].

    This rate of substantiation was on average 4.3 times higher (for all types of abuse) in the Indigenous population than in the non-Indigenous population. The rate varied widely between states, with Victoria and Western Australia having a substantiation rate nearly eight times higher for Indigenous children than non-Indigenous children. Indigenous children were the subject of proportionately fewer substantiations for sexual abuse than non-Indigenous children and proportionately higher substantiations for neglect than non-Indigenous children.

    In 2010, more than a third (36%, or 3,604) of all gonorrhoea diagnoses were among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. (Endnote 11) The rate of diagnosis was more than 26 times that for the non-Indigenous population: 804 per 100,000, compared with 30 per 100,000 respectively. (Endnote 11)

    Other indicators suggest that these departmental figures may under-estimate child abuse and neglect more among Indigenous children than among non-Indigenous children (for example, Gordon, Hallahan and Henry 2002; Memmott et al. 2001). The Robertson Report (2000: xiii) stated: ‘Violence is now overt; murders, bashings and rapes, including sexual violence against children, have reached epidemic proportions with both Indigenous and non-Indigenous people being perpetrators.’

  96. Stephanie Jarrett

    Hello everyone

    I am Stephanie, the author of the book Liberating Aboriginal People from Violence, and thanks to all of you for this great debate. I want to assure you that I have a long-term commitment to the perspective in my book for over 20 years now. There is no comfortable retreat for me into my left-leaning politics. Rather, my views and my commitment to overcoming Aboriginal violence arise from my being on the Left. Also for me, my Left values are a major force sustaining my commitment. This is not a Right vs Left issue, and there are values on both sides of Australia’s liberal-democratic spectrum that can be harnessed for long-term commitment.

  97. Jessie

    PoR, thanks for posting this, I look forward to reading Stephanie’s work.

    John H,
    The HPA axis and stressors has applicability to the gross circumstances of living in a tribal culture or in re-tribalised cultures. cf [email protected].
    However v little research has been conducted on this, though I did hear that Fiona Stanley, WA was researching this. She had not until recently researched violence in spite of running thee midwives d/base and Aboriginal child research. Lloyd Fell (Sydney), an agricultural scientist did pioneering work on the HPA-Axis in’Feedlot Cattle’.

    The original nutritional research was done by Kerin O’Dea (ex Menzies School of Health) on a very small sample (6) returning to the bush and eating bush foods, partic kangaroo. Hence contributing to the growth of ‘bush foods’ programs and outstation/self determination movement. KO’D presented her work to Anthro Society in UK mid 1970s I think.

    I find it surprising that given all the stories about frontier violence that archaeological digs have NOT been allowed. Sutton for eg spent 30 years observing Cape York peoples and fulfilling anthropological work with a select few before he chose to comment on homicide and violence. As did Noel Pearson. This book is interesting from the perspective of the g word (which took me some time to understand what is actually was). So much for free speech!

    There are 100,000 Aborigines living in ‘remote Australia’. We only have a minute assortment speaking and in the media. One has to wonder what the real stories are if these people had the opportunity to speak. I don’t believe that the academics and others in the aboriginal industry have told the truth. S Jarrett has led the way for this to occur. Good on her.

  98. Jessie

    John H,

    The person to read and speak with is Frank Bowden.

    There has been so much manipulation of stats that it would be a poor proxy. Particularly in a historical presentation.

  99. Jessie

    Jim Rose,

    The numbers of single women with children in remote communities is large. They receive single mothers pension, re-partner, de-partner and leave their children with extended family.
    A great percentage of people travel incessantly between communities and between rural towns and communities.
    Hence contributing to poor education, horrendous overcrowding and so and so forth.
    Your solution is incorrect.

  100. Paul

    Here in the North the local jail is practically an Aboriginal community. Many are in jail because they want to be. They get food, shelter, smokes (still), a bit of money and until Newman came to power they got relatives flown all over the countryside to join them for all sorts of untouchable cultural observances (accommodation included, thank you taxpayer). Among the disenfranchised young going to jail has become a rite-of-passage and a proof of manhood. They actively seek it.

    On the subject of single women parenting, try 14-15 year old kids asking the midwives for the paperwork for the “bebbybonnus” before they’re even out of the birth suite. The families organize pregnancies based on whose turn it is, age/maturity be damned. Police? Laws? hahaha…as if. Its a purely financial decision. Burglary is endemic, drinking has given way to drug use and the Psych Unit is full of Blacks with marijuana-induced schizophrenias. I recently shooed a Black kid of maybe 14 out of our house after he’d smashed a door to get in. That’s your baby bonus-based future for you. I live up here, I’m in the system, I see this, I talk to the other people who deal with this every day. That is what we see.

  101. Poor Old Rafe

    “S Jarrett has led the way for this to occur. Good on her.”

    We can applaud her efforts but others have gone before, Nowra comes to mind and he is not the only one.

    What is most interesting about SJ is the way she has emerged come from the heart of darkness in academia, that is part of the novelty and the other, equally unlikely in the usual scheme of things, is the support she is getting from Bess Price who has joined a non-left, non-labor party to follow her star.

    In fact it is entirely appropriate to join a non-left party to improve the situation because things were going forward in the pre-Labor era and they were set back decades by the Whitlam/Coombs ascendency.

  102. Yobbo

    John H. I don’t doubt at all that aboriginal teenagers are more sexually active than white teenagers. They probably have zero parental supervision and little else to do with their time.

    And I’m not trying to defend Aboriginal culture in any way. I’m just arguing with your methodology that STD rate is a proxy for the rate of child abuse.

    P.S. If you think the religious objections to sex arose from the need to curtail STDs you are kidding yourself.

  103. Jessie

    PoR at 11.33pm
    True.
    Coombes however did not play an active interest in Aboriginal Affairs until the early 1960s.

    It was the Blue Streak Rocket event and 1942-46 Pilbara strike that heated up public debate on the issue of remote Aborigines.

    Coombs followed the earlier efforts of an anthro-pologist + professional (Minister/medico) + politician as listed in link with this tome:
    Coombs, Brandt & Snowdon (1983)
    A certain heritage: Programs for and by Aboriginal families in Australia
    Centre for Resource and Environmental Studies, Australian National University.

    Duguid spoke to the Anti-Slavery Society in his efforts to stop development and the use of central Australia (WA/SA)for weapons testing and broad scale agriculture, as did Thomson for northern Qld. No assimilation just separation and horror for so many!

    Murdoch in 1959; The Advertiser on the case of Max Stuart brought Aboriginal issues to the High Court. Perhaps one day Murdoch will provide some detail on these years.

  104. Helen Armstrong

    Your solution is incorrect

    I think you are referring to divorce, Jesse as a means of escape?

    Otherwise to say that Aboriginal people cannot ‘leave their culture’ and improve their lot in terms of health and welfare outcomes because they are caught in their own maelstrom is to disregard all the Aboriginal families who already have done so and function well in urban life.

    Sure the spiral seems inescapable in the communities (just as a victim of domestic violence often sees no way of escape from her/his reality) but the fact remains that many families and individuals have escaped. Perhaps we need to do a study with them and ask why? And what were the triggers and how did you do it? How hard was it to maintain?

    There are many people who identify as aboriginal who are not living on communities or in ghettos. Why?

  105. Poor Old Rafe

    Jessie, by a weird coincidence I was working in the (then) Australian Council for the Arts for a short time in 1973 and in the typing pool they were transcribing the tapes that he made as he visited remote communities.

    Hasluck was streets ahead of Coombs on the appropriate policies.

    The Stockman’s pay case in 1965 drove a stake through the heart of Aboriginal employment in the outback.

  106. Helen Armstrong

    I should say that in the last sentence of my previous comment I meant to refer to dysfunctional or dangerous communities as opposed to others who may be safe and secure.

  107. Jessie

    Helen thanks for that.

    The women that are alive having married out of these communities are significantly less in number than the women who married out and died. That is my guess. And it would be in the bracket early 70s-current day I speak of. Prior to this a greater number of Aboriginal women/men intermarried and survived. That would be my guess also.

    So your question of interviewing the ones that are alive is a good one. Perhaps you could ask these women about the stories of the women that died.

    It is a criminal that these people were locked away and re-tribalised with substandard education, parallel IR awards were developed to maintain these ghettoes and academics controlled the publications and art work.

    Divorce is not a word I would use. There are few marriages that I know of under the Marriage Act or by celebrants in the remote areas. The last marriages that people speak of were performed by the local Ministers in the mission days.

    Apostasy is a more useful approach perhaps to describing the situation, including lack of education and life skills etc. Few dare differ form the norms enforced and supported by the Aboriginal industry in the remote communities.

    Bess Price describes herself as Australian, yet you refer to people who identify as Aboriginal and live successful lives having escaped. A debate to be furthered if Roxon sees the hypocrisy of her draft bill.

    I would recommend reading the reports on the NT Coroners data base for an understanding of these remote communities. While a skewed sample (not all deaths reach their notice) it gives some indication of the events that unfold.

    I am not aware of one safe or secure remote community, having worked remote for some 30 years. Same could be stated for PNG also my friends write.

    PoR sentence fixed:
    The communists, Trade Unionists and some others drove a stake through the heart of Aborigines and Aboriginal employment in the outback with the 1965 Stockman’s Award Case.

  108. Helen Armstrong

    Jesse,

    Escaped as in escaped from violence – not necessarily from their Aboriginality.

    Although on reading Stephanie Jarrett’s book, (Received and read yesterday and today,) there may not be a lot worth saving in a culture that uses women as objects and essentially, slaves.

    I was staggered to read that the world wails regarding aboriginal deaths in custody (male deaths) yet not a word about the deaths of aboriginal women by aboriginals, mainly spousal – these deaths far outnumber male deaths in custody.

    It seems that whole focus of culture is male and control of women and the women, well, they can be sacrificed because it is culture damn it! And they know what is coming for them as one judge said about the rape of a promised underage wife by her much older husband.

    The marriage ceremony of one tribe where the girl is dragged off by several men, kicking biting and screaming and then raped by them for several days in the bush and then the group come back and any male in the tribe (including her own father) is permitted to (I refuse to use the words have sex with, because it is not) rape her for several more days.

    The children are sexually active, as the girls say, if we don’t go with them they will take us anyway.

    I must thank Stephanie for writing this book, and I ask all of you to get the book and read it yourself. It should be required reading for teachers, historians, school kids, Politicians, everyone. It is only through real awareness that we will have the knowledge to stand shoulder to shoulder with people such as Stephanie and Bess, and bring about real change.

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