Further to Steve Kates’ post on the school computer scandal where the Government funding is running out with the Age reporting
THE federal government’s scheme providing high school students with laptop computers is on the brink of collapse, leaving parents with hefty bills and educators with a chaotic start to the school year.
Peter Garrett claims the program has been
delivered on time and within budget
with 957,805 computers being purchased at a cost of $2.4 billion. That’s $2505 per computer.
Harvey Norman, which is rarely the cheapest place in town, is selling Toshiba Satellite C850/05D Laptops for $698 each. If Garrett had gone to the Harvey Norman website clicked “add to cart” and selected 957,805 computers it comes up with $668,547,890 (try it – it works!) with free pick up at the store or delivery “usually shipping within 2 days”.
You’d normally think that a bulk purchase would be cheaper, but not with this government. If the program is running through its appropriation, it’s because they are paying too much per laptop.
UPDATE
If anyone is interested, here is the original request for costing under the Charter of Budget Honesty for the 2007 election.ALP036_Request_for_Costing_-_Labors_Education_Revolution_-_Computers_in_Schools
Who left that idiot Garrett in charge of our money….again. Don’t they EVER learn?
Yes I know; rhetorical question.
Dexter Rous
3 Feb 13 at 7:10 pm
Alex Robson and I did an analysis of the policy when it was first announced.
Sinclair Davidson
3 Feb 13 at 7:13 pm
Happy to help out – as always.
Grey
3 Feb 13 at 7:18 pm
Sinclair and Alex were prescient. If you have a policy where schools can
it is reasonable to expect that they will in fact apply for $1 million.
Samuel J
3 Feb 13 at 7:21 pm
No it isn’t. It is reasonable to expect the program will have criteria that will grant 1 million to the largest schools and lesser sums to smaller schools.
Grey
3 Feb 13 at 7:24 pm
Oh dear – Grey, have some dignity.
A $1 billion program ended up being well over budget and late – yet the meeja doesn’t check up.
Sinclair Davidson
3 Feb 13 at 7:27 pm
I assume the number of bureaucrats overseeing this programme ate into the overall cost. Is there any info about this?
My interest arises as I am reminded of an Aboriginal Housing initiative for the Feds where the $10m allocated was mostly used in PS salaries.
Jock
3 Feb 13 at 7:29 pm
Thanks Grey. You always do.
This time you expose the obvious incompetence of a government which has a budget of 1 billion but then tells 2,659 schools that they can have up 1 mil each.
What are the rules – first in best dressed, or do they all get what they asked for with the inevitable budget blowout? As the cost is 2.4 billion, don’t answer, it’s a rhetorical question.
jupes
3 Feb 13 at 7:31 pm
Laptops are going to need software, while there are freeware versions I am guessing they are going to get the educational version of Office, they need a anti-virus capacity. The school needs networking capabilities in order to utilise the laptops properly. An investment in warranty might be a good idea as would be some kind of asset tracking registry. Don’t forget training – particularly for the smaller remote schools.
This doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem, just that dividing the budget by a unit price doesn’t reveal anything. And if you think there is a problem, I understand there are statutory independent audit offices for the Federal government – if it so obvious ask them to have a look.
Grey
3 Feb 13 at 7:34 pm
Hey genius – why don’t you ask them?
Oh, that’s right, such staggeringly stupid, criminal profligacy is of no concern to numpties such as your good self.
Rabz
3 Feb 13 at 7:46 pm
I can’t do everything. At the moment I am focused on clearing Craig Thomson and investigating murder (if it is murder – no body) mysteries in Hobarton.
I also have to address myself to the vexed issue of Jill Meagher’s handbag – its on the to do list. And help Dr Davidson with his economic modelling here at Catallaxy.
I have got enough my plate already, thank you. But you have my full support in your endeavours.
Grey
3 Feb 13 at 7:57 pm
Wonderful, thanks Ghey.
You do indeed appear to have your paws full.
Rabz
3 Feb 13 at 7:58 pm
Good point. I wonder who cleaned up with that contract?
jupes
3 Feb 13 at 8:01 pm
I hear the WA branch of the AWU have an excellent track record in provision of that particular service.
Or was it the AWU Workplace Reform Association?
Grey
3 Feb 13 at 8:04 pm
Grey – the computer I chose was just an example, but it includes Windows 8. As for software, there is plenty of freeware available (including for anti-virus checking) but even Harvey Norman are selling the Norton anti-virus checker for only $48. As for a warranty – that would be a waste of money; the program was to provide a computer not to provide an endless series of computers. If a student loses or destroys a computer that’s their problem.
Also, the program was not about networking schools and training (do you really think that kids need training to use computers??). It was to provide a laptop.
As for administrative expenses, we are talking about $2.4 billion being spent. How much do you think would be appropriate for admin expenses? $5 m/$10 m? More? If it is much more than $10m than the program design is badly flawed.
No, the principal cost driver of the $2.4 billion must be the price of the laptops themselves (it is obvious really when you think about the quantity of laptops being purchased). So maybe $2505 per laptop is a slight overestimate (if one takes account of admin costs), but it is in the ballpark. And it is ridiculously over the top. I didn’t read that the program was to provide the highest spec most powerful computers. I didn’t read that the program was designed to provide a continuing supply of computers.
Samuel J
3 Feb 13 at 8:10 pm
The official website states
there’s your $2500. So why installation and maintenance more than the purchase? Quite strange.
Samuel J
3 Feb 13 at 8:12 pm
Oh, so a socialist Minister attempted to discover price?
Pete, baby, it’s beyond your ken.
I know that in a perfect world of bwaaaa….perfect State price setting….. bwaaaa, then Pete knows the price of computers and can budget.
Oh my sainted Aunt……
Alfonso
3 Feb 13 at 8:13 pm
Rip off I would say
Maintenance of bloody computer contract to donator?
Aliice
3 Feb 13 at 8:15 pm
I have a son who would love that installation work at one tenth the price and does a damn fine job so who is ripping us off again?
Remind me which dickhead in which dickheads pocket in government got this juicy little contract.
Lies lies and damned government opaque tenders.
Aliice
3 Feb 13 at 8:17 pm
This is the Government that spend $400+ giving pensioners a set top box.
Econocrat
3 Feb 13 at 8:18 pm
Samuel J, what you think ought to be in the program and what are in the program are two different things.
Budget for the Digital Education Revolution initiatives was 2.4 billion. Provision of laptops was a key but not the sole component of this.
If you want to find out exactly how the money was spent can I suggest you contact [email protected]
Or read the resources page here
deewr.gov.au/digital-education-and-technology-schools?resource=
This will give you an idea of the other projects alongside provision of laptops that were being run.
Grey
3 Feb 13 at 8:22 pm
Sam J says
“So maybe $2505 per laptop is a slight overestimate (if one takes account of admin costs), but it is in the ballpark.”
This is bullshit, good laptops can be found for $700 these days and certainly good enough for schoolkids.
Add a few hundred (max $200) to set up and install that is all.
Aliice
3 Feb 13 at 8:23 pm
It’s like a scene out of Yes, Minister.
(Mz Paul and Mr Manthorpe are public servants cluelessly operating within Department of Education, Employment and Workplace Relations)
Gab
3 Feb 13 at 8:24 pm
The surprising this is…… so many are surprised. Has this incompetent bunch of knuckledraggers ever done anything they have promised to do?
Makka
3 Feb 13 at 8:27 pm
The purchase price of computers is only one part of the equation. There are total cost of ownership considerations as well. For example, we lease our machines at work, but obviously have on-costs, such as software and administration.
Our chosen brand is Lenovo and the purchase price for one of these machines (with a Windows license included) is circa $1600. The leasing agreement has a pretty low interest rate and we don’t pay a lot more than that over a three year period. An Office license is around $450 for us, plus anti-virus and systems management software (Novell Zenworks).
Over three years it works out to be around $4000 if you include the cost of the staff, network etc. That’s a better deal than the government is getting on these machines I suspect and we don’t have anywhere near the scale or buying power that they have.
tbh
3 Feb 13 at 8:32 pm
From slam dunk to troll feeding in one easy thread.
blogstrop
3 Feb 13 at 8:38 pm
Doesn’t surprise me. My department recently purchased several hundred mobile phone handsets at about 20% more than the average retail price. Preferred supplier who had tendered for the contact i was told when enquiring about this.
I’m in the wrong business. I need to become a government supplier.
bc
3 Feb 13 at 8:39 pm
The 2008-09 budget provided for $1.2 billion for this program out to 2011-12. On Garrett’s figures it ended up costing twice as much as what was budgeted for. Not sure how that qualifies as being “on budget”.
Oh, and don’t forget – who was the education minister responsible for introducing and costing this policy?
Milton von Smith
3 Feb 13 at 8:47 pm
And don’t forget the same person was warned at the time:
Gab
3 Feb 13 at 8:50 pm
Its about Greys 7: Cats 0 so far on my count.
But that has never stopped Cats from pretending the opposite before, so presumably Samuel’s jaundiced critique of the program will quickly become just another part of this site’s blinkered and biased folklore about the ‘failings’ of the current administration.
William Bragg
3 Feb 13 at 8:54 pm
Junior’s school got a wireless network plus a techo for 3 years. I think the biggest cost is the onsite tech support dude – who will be unemployed shortly when the funding runs out.
As I mentioned in another thread, 40% of Junior’s classmates had non-functioning laptops at the end of last term. The rest had been damaged and repaired at some point during their life. If you give a teenager a piece of junk for nothing, don’t expect them to treat it with any respect.
boy on a bike
3 Feb 13 at 8:57 pm
I’m glad you think the program is a success William. What would qualify as a failure in your eyes? Perhaps the same program run in the same way by a Coalition government?
Samuel J
3 Feb 13 at 8:58 pm
From my observations, anything delivered by DEEWR ends up costing more and providing less than the original promise. If you want to get the least bang for your buck, send it through DEEWR.
Samuel J
3 Feb 13 at 9:04 pm
Um yeah ok.
Millions for shitty laptops that don’t work (2500 AUD each).
$400 for a set top box installation.
0.00385% of homes reached (conflating commencements and completions, and with only a 40% uptake rate) by the NBN 2.5 years into a ten year programme with costs blowing out before they get stuck into any intense phase of urban construction and cabling.
Yes Bragg, it’s all going along just swell.
.
3 Feb 13 at 9:13 pm
I’ve always wondered what the purpose was behind handing out laptops. I think it was more a case of, “Private school kids have them – so we must give them to everyone at public schools” – forgetting that the private schools have spent years building up the necessary support infrastructure to make use of them.
Giving laptops away without the underlying support is as useful as giving an African villager a Ferrari.
boy on a bike
3 Feb 13 at 9:14 pm
BOAB, bingo on all counts.
tbh
3 Feb 13 at 9:36 pm
$2500 sounds pretty standard for the lease and maintenance of a laptop including software. Just sayin’.
Nobody is expecting the kidlets or their long suffering parents to be the bug fixers.
entropy
3 Feb 13 at 9:37 pm
Ent, the question is how much of the TCO is included in that figure of $2500 per machine.
tbh
3 Feb 13 at 9:40 pm
it would be three year lease woundlnt it? For $2500
entropy
3 Feb 13 at 9:49 pm
That’s hard to determine from the available information, though it looks like an outright purchase of each machine at an average of around $2500 each, plus $1500 per machine for maintenance.
As I said above, a mid market multi-national like us can do it cheaper than that and with better hardware.
tbh
3 Feb 13 at 9:55 pm
Let me run through how the laptops were used (or not used) at Junior’s school. Here’s how I would expect them to be used:
1. Improved communication between students, teachers and parents via email and/or an intranet. Reality – teachers refused to hand out their email address as it would entail “more work” and “possible parent contact after 3pm”. Home work and assignments never distributed or collected via email.
2. On line learning, especially for subjects like Maths. Result – never used. Not budgeted for. Teachers had no idea how to make use of existing on line courses.
3. Regular on line tests to assess performance. Result – never used. “Testing is bad for their self esteem” etc, and teachers had no idea how to do it.
4. Note taking in class. Reality – keyboards to small to type effectively for any length of time. Everyone reverted to spiral bound books, or collecting photocopied handouts.
Unexpected results:
1. Wholesale copying of information from Wikipedia etc for assignments.
2. Massive piracy of music and video.
3. Assignments turned into exercises in making them look pretty using photoshop etc, rather than bothering with the content.
Summary – WOFTAM. (Waste of F*cking Time and Money).
boy on a bike
3 Feb 13 at 10:42 pm
It’s none of the Governments business how parents spend their money on their kids education. Some kids would have been better off with a new drum kit, Lego Mindstorms or soccer boots. It was all about pandering to the Teachers Union and unionisation of the IT industry.
What could a wealthy Sydney north shore ex Rock Star possibly know about the educational needs of someone else’s kid.
The kid’s parents, and probably the kid, will be paying off the debt the Trade Union Party is racking up (8 Billion a month) for 20 years.
And the poor bastard will be paying extra for his or her first beer so Nanny Roxon can retire at 45 to ‘be with her kid’!
Forester
3 Feb 13 at 10:48 pm
Here’s a radical idea: Part of the “learning experience” can be to install their own f*ing Office and anti-virus freeware! It’s not rocket science!
And maybe they have some qualified individual in the school who can assist? What are they called? Oh – Computer Science Teachers!! Surely if the govt is splashing out on laptops, the teachers should be so grateful that the curriculum can accommodate basics of computer ownership and maintenance?
Andrew
3 Feb 13 at 11:06 pm
Gold.
I’ve posted it on Facebook under “Are you smarter than a government minister?”
I’ve got a 9 year old and a 6 year old who are smarter than the current one. Come to think of it, I also have three guinea pigs and two japanese fighting fish who are arguably smarter as well.
The Beer Whisperer
3 Feb 13 at 11:07 pm
PS mind you, I’m quite astonished that the govt managed to deliver laptops to almost 65% of the promised students and for just 6x the market price – that’s pretty good by their standards.
Grey seems to find the ratio between laptop and installation quite reasonable – $1k ea for the hardware and then $1.5k for everything else. That being the case, why didn’t policy geniuses Rudd and Gillard (then Education Minister I think) anticipate that on-costs would be 150% of the cost of the program, and therefore underbudget it? Was this incompetence or election costing dishonesty?
Andrew
3 Feb 13 at 11:08 pm
Braggs
I hope you’re not in the private sector, or let me rephrase that. I hope you are in the private sector so that the public sector ie taxpayer is funding an imbecile like you.
JC
4 Feb 13 at 12:14 am
Looking elsewhere I see you can pay $600 for that Toshiba.
1 unit.
Includes seller margin.
If you’re buying 1 million units surely you don’t have to use a middle man, so get rid of the margin, and add the bulk purchase price. Down to $400 or so?
I worked with a young guy once (software company) who announced he was leaving to start his own IT business. Not long after there were reports in IT reseller mags about resellers being upset that the state government contract to supply schools had gone to our ex-employee’s business – only just set up. His dad just happened to be the outgoing head of the education department (this was well known, he previously worked there).
Harold
4 Feb 13 at 12:43 am
“Happy to help out – as always.”
Grey, imagine you’re a school principal. No, it’s okay, we won’t laugh much. You can apply for a grant up to $1 million.
How big a grant do you ask for? Take as long as you like…
The Beer Whisperer
4 Feb 13 at 12:45 am
The same goes for the set top box debacle. Cost of a set top box is about $50 but installations was $250+.
I seem to recall the average cost of supply and install was about $650.00 each.
Its easy to spend other peoples money.
Splatacrobat
4 Feb 13 at 12:59 am
The set top box was ‘needed’ to connect their old cathode-ray TV to a digital signal.
New 68cm flat screen TVs with digital reception were available for around $500.
Harold
4 Feb 13 at 1:09 am
Is this to improve our standing in maths, english and science. give the kids some of those things made of paper called books and buy a few stockwhips that will improve things.
kelly liddle
4 Feb 13 at 1:18 am
Do people still actually buy anti-virus? 20 years since I graduted from Comp Sci and never paid for it. Presently Microsoft gives it to you free, resident protection and malware scanner. Previously there was always a free alternative.
Harold
4 Feb 13 at 1:33 am
I am 6’4″ and I can type on a laptop without too many problems.
I find it hard to believe that a 12 year old kid would find a laptop keyboard too small.
Laptop keyboards aren’t much smaller than desktop keyboards, they just omit things like the numerical keypad.
Yobbo
4 Feb 13 at 2:09 am
Yeah there’s no need for paid antivirus, there’s hundreds of free ones. There is also OpenOffice, a free program that does everything MS Office does.
And a $700 laptop would come with Windows already installed. I fail to see what the $1500 installation fee is for. Installing it in your school? It’s a laptop, installation involves placing it on your desk and plugging it in.
Yobbo
4 Feb 13 at 2:11 am
I suspect that if you asked Apple for a special order of one million Macbooks, with protective covers and all softwear supplied, you’d get them for less than $500,000,000.
I also suspect that it never occurred to a single member of the federal government that such a large order could be had for less than the wholesale price.
Deadman
4 Feb 13 at 2:21 am
Hey Greys – get over here now and explain why Murdoch’s Newspoll is sinking the Slapper. You had better have a good explanation, Greys, because you were doing the Leftist insider routine and claiming to be in the know.
Fisky
4 Feb 13 at 2:24 am
“$2505 per computer”
Corporations often pay amounts like that after it gets through the IT outsourcing firm, but then the laptop is supported.
However, many school laptops are left in a state of disrepair, unsupported.
Somewhere, there is an IT organisation being paid a lot of money for no work. (cf: HSU newsletters)
2dogs
4 Feb 13 at 6:01 am
Laptops with a full size keyboard are fine.. Netbooks don’t have a full size keyboard. They are crap, always were crap, and inevitably find their way to the bin much sooner than a real laptop.
Oh, I am not sure if Apple ever discounts. Not in their DNA.
entropy
4 Feb 13 at 7:35 am
Let’s recap on the genius of Stephen Controy, the stupid apsirations of thousands of whirlpool and free subsidised porn fanbois like monty and Grey and Bragg’s PR spin:
Millions for shitty laptops that don’t work (2500 AUD each).
$400 for a set top box installation.
0.00385% of homes reached (conflating commencements and completions, and with only a 40% uptake rate) by the NBN 2.5 years into a ten year programme with costs blowing out before they get stuck into any intense phase of urban construction and cabling.
(What the FUCK is Mike Quigley paid again? 2 million AUD plus a 300k BONUS? FFS! Note the NBN Co. chairman recently said [paraphrased] “we don’t have to deliver a commercial return, this project is 20-30 years long”).
Yes, I can see why we’re gonna become world beaters with this socialist scheme for telecommunications. Watch out, South Korea!
.
4 Feb 13 at 8:24 am
Oh Fisky, you are so naive. How else can Gillard be eased out in favor of someone people might vote for when not blind drunk? Besides, we know Chris Mitchell reads Catallaxy and after reading my revelations he probably rang up Newspoll and threw his toys out of the cot.
All I have said there is a desire in the elite for the carbon tax to stay because they believe we will just have to reintroduce it a few years down the track. They would be quite happy for Tony Abbott to win, provided he doesn’t hammer his colors to the mast on repealing the carbon price. The recent volatility of Newspoll as been simply an attempt to try and lead opinion – and about as successfully as Gallup with Truman v Dewey. But Newspoll is not the only arrow in the quiver.h
Grey
4 Feb 13 at 8:52 am
Good luck with that.
The whole gerbil worming sham will be deader than a dodo “a few years down the track”.
Rabz
4 Feb 13 at 9:02 am
You are not part of “da elite”, Grey.
.
4 Feb 13 at 9:05 am
Netbooks cost more like $400 though.
Yobbo
4 Feb 13 at 9:33 am
To boab 10:42pm,
Under un-expected results add-
96% used for social enjoyments eg: u-tube/facebook/chatting/gaming etc: (perhaps a few other little nasties).
Wolfgang
4 Feb 13 at 10:03 am
“Watch out,
SouthNorth Korea!”There, I fixed it for you.
The Beer Whisperer
4 Feb 13 at 10:19 am
Exactly, tbh. Samuel has NFI what he’s talking about.
m0nty
4 Feb 13 at 11:03 am
Right.
Please show us the breakdown of costs for a school of 250 kids where there is one IT guy.
If the support costs are $1500 per computer -
Does he really earn about $125k p.a for three years?
.
4 Feb 13 at 11:12 am
As pointed out above:
How the fuck did that balloon out to $2.4 billion, and how come Garrett still gets to claim the program has been
?
sdog
4 Feb 13 at 11:16 am
65% delivered and budget more than doubled. Of course it’s Laborspeak for “on time and within budget” just check the Macquarie dictionary.
Gab
4 Feb 13 at 11:19 am
Ok I rent out hundreds of laptops, my customers budget is usually under $1200.
The Government is paying close to the same amount for their laptops as I do as a rental organisation.. and we are considered “bad” by the self same government.
That includes setup, 2 years antivirus and warranty repairs (not screens)..
99% of my customers use wireless dongles for their internet connections I would get back 1-2 a month for repairs.
Now heres another complication for Mr Conroy. Most of my clients are low income/pension types, even if he runs his fibre up to the house they wont take it up. Most dont have fixed line phones as they then get “humbugged” for other peoples calls.
thefrollickingmole
4 Feb 13 at 12:59 pm
There is no “easing out”. You claimed that “they” wanted Gillard and Newspoll was fixed to support her. You have not described the mechanism by which Newspoll has fallen into the hands of hostile forces.
Fisky
4 Feb 13 at 1:54 pm
“Does he really earn about $125k p.a for three years?”
With the right Labor connections…..
The Beer Whisperer
4 Feb 13 at 2:36 pm
Makes you wonder how the NBN rollout is going. After all, who needs a cost benefit analysis?
Jannie
4 Feb 13 at 2:38 pm
Makes you wonder how the NBN rollout is going. After all, who needs a cost benefit analysis?
Jannie
See above
Yeah, it’s fucking shithouse.
.
4 Feb 13 at 2:44 pm
link
and
link
The keyboards on the Netbooks are ridiculously small – so small, it took me about 6 attempts at typing my name the first time I used one.
boy on a bike
4 Feb 13 at 2:49 pm
Is this what we paid $2.5 billion for? For kids to become faster typists?
Would have been cheaper to have sent them all on a two week typing course using golfball typewriters – that worked for me when I was at school.
From my experience the “excitement and engagement” lasted about a week. The “workforce of the future” went back to playing video games and swapping pirated movies.
boy on a bike
4 Feb 13 at 3:01 pm
My son started year 9 this year and we have to lease at $250 per year for 4 years an Apple Macbook. $40 after the 4 years to buy it. I am told a teacher is fanatical about Apple so Apple it must be even though we have no other Apple products. Next year they have to “lease’ Apple Air which is lighter and would have preferred that at least, but didn’t get options. Could have bought my own to their minimum standards far cheaper. If the Govt. gave the school any money I didn’t see it and figure I am paying about market rate.
Stung parent
4 Feb 13 at 5:02 pm
No, I didn’t. I said certainty in carbon pricing policy was wanted. Just as in 1998 the possibility of GST failing a 2nd time was not an option, there is no desire to see carbon pricing to become a poison chalice either. The easiest is way is to have ALP re-elected – although if Tony Abbott were to give assurances he had no intention of keeping his promises in this area that would change the equation entirely. I have fairly consistent in saying this.
BTW, do you think the timing of the Craig Thomson arrest was a bit odd? No new information seems to have come to light, it just appears to be based on the credit card statements that have been in the public domain since 2010. No chance they were timing it so there was no chance that a premature byelection could bring down the government?
Grey
4 Feb 13 at 5:32 pm
Dot
All the good internet countries have a socialist programme that is just how it has to be. The question is about cost benefit only for a spread out country like us and the higher costs of labour.
kelly liddle
4 Feb 13 at 8:49 pm
The boys at mu son’s school call the govt issued laptops craptops.
Their teachers tells them not to bother trying to use photoshop on them because by the time the file is ready they will have already finished their HSC.
John
4 Feb 13 at 9:24 pm
Has this incompetent bunch of knuckledraggers ever done anything they have promised to do?
Yes, they have. Unfortunately for the nation, that’s not the same as saying that anything they promised wasn’t worse than fucking useless; nor is it the same as saying that anything useful they tried to do was done competently.
perturbed
5 Feb 13 at 3:03 am
“Year 9 student Kartika Brand said her typing skills had vastly improved since being given the netbook.”
lol
Who names their child after a typeface, with the surname “Brand”?
I think someone is having a lend.
The next line should be: “However, her friend, Times Roman Generic, disagreed.”
johanna
5 Feb 13 at 6:13 am
No, I didn’t.
Yes, you did, and it’s on record.
Yes people want certainty. They certainly want it repealed, forever.
.
5 Feb 13 at 8:26 am
Bullshit.
America’s internet is socialist? Who the FUCK are ComCast then?
.
5 Feb 13 at 8:28 am