Tuesday Forum: February 5, 2013 at Catallaxy Files

Tuesday Forum: February 5, 2013

1,118 comments

Written by Sinclair Davidson

February 5th, 2013 at 4:38 pm

Posted in Open Forum

1,118 Responses to 'Tuesday Forum: February 5, 2013'

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I’m no economist, merely one who can’t understand our financial world at all. So, I’m seeking the help of my Cat correspondents.
I see that the Stock exchange indices for the UK, USA, and many other such around our world, have recovered to the level that pertained just prior to the GFC.
But not Australia. Sure it’s going in the right direction, but in broad terms it is still 1600 points shy of its apogee, 6600.
Our World’s Best Treasurer assures us that Australia is the envy of the civilised world; low inflation, low unemployment (if you really believe his figure) and low interest rates. Apparently these laudable results get us nowhere, because our competitors don’t need these levels for their economy to heal.
I listen to the BBC panel programmes with interest. I like them because they invite eminent people to express their views. And, because of time constraints, these experts tend to get the point quickly; time prevents their propensity to waffle on.
Just today, I heard a discussion on the benefits and pitfalls of Quantitative Easing and Inflation. I was very interested to hear one American economist state that the skills necessary to curb inflation were well understood: – what was needed was a mechanism to ensure International balance between Currency values. In other words, a serious re-think about Exchange Control Acts. No-one can deny that the Chinese, American, and Japanese, as well as plethora of other minor players do surreptitiously manipulate their currency values in a global context
Why is the apparent lack of progress in the recovery of the All Ords important to me? Well, my pension fund still loiters around 60% of its pre GFC capital value. You bet I’m concerned. And I fear that Our World’s Best Treasurer is incapable of shielding Australian manufacturing and jobs (remember jobs; Gillard’s Socialist raison d’etre?) from the havoc wreaked by a high Australian Dollar.
In Pauline parlance…..Please explain?

Dexter Rous

5 Feb 13 at 4:41 pm
Twoth, or should that be tooth?

Huckleberry Chunkwot

5 Feb 13 at 4:43 pm
Dovish RBA statement – looks like we’ll get another cut next month.

Sleetmute

5 Feb 13 at 4:45 pm
Missed the podium agin!!!

Leigh Lowe

5 Feb 13 at 4:48 pm
I’ve just walked in and I am five! Very clever.

Mick Gold Coast QLD

5 Feb 13 at 4:51 pm
Former NSW Labor minister and party historian Rodney Cavalier said:
“People should not dismiss the escapades of Young Labor lightly. These are the people who will be occupying the opposition benches before the end of this decade and beyond.
“They are apprentice members of the political class, trained in hatred and trickery. No one should doubt for a moment the values that motivate them.
“All of them are seeking paid employment inside what used to be called the Labor movement, some have already cracked jobs on the staffs of unions and with ministers.
“The moment they are employed, their life’s experiences come to an end. They will not mature beyond that moment.

I have never read a more concise or accurate summation of what is wrong with the ALP.
Interesting that an insider is publicly consigning them to the wilderness of opposition.
In fact, on re-reading I believe that it is worthy of a liberty quote.
RTWT
H/T Bolt

Huckleberry Chunkwot

5 Feb 13 at 4:55 pm
I see Piers Akerman has asked his bloggers to post the more spectacular of the feast of leftie journalists’ commentary and opinions between now and whenever the hell the election is. He is going to hold a judging for a Stupid Award. I think this is something everyone should get behind.

Tracey

5 Feb 13 at 4:55 pm
Dexter, exchange rates are a lame excuse for ~~quantitative easing~~ money printing, if that was what the “expert” was implying.

One of the main reasons for our high dollar is our relatively high interest rates, due to artificially low interest rates elsewhere. Australia is an obvious choice for currency investment as a result.

So, they propose, as a solution, to print money to solve something that they themselves created? For chrissake, never let an economist anywhere near you economic levers…

The Beer Whisperer

5 Feb 13 at 5:01 pm
You really set the tone for the new thread DexRo.

Great start. Why do you go to the BBC for advice on economics again?

Token

5 Feb 13 at 5:04 pm
“People should not dismiss the escapades of Young Labor lightly. These are the people who will be occupying the opposition benches before the end of this decade and beyond.

Great timing for that quote. Bolta has this snippet from young Labor about the former Senator Falkner:

ALP Senator John Faulkner has been labelled a “hypocrite” and a “contemptible charlatan” by members of Australian Young Labor in a draft motion to the organisation’s annual conference.

The widely respected Senator Faulkner has been campaigning for greater integrity within the party, against the backdrop of the corruption inquiry into former ministers Eddie Obeid and Ian Macdonald.

But in a draft motion to the Canberra conference, Senator Faulkner was accused of being a “whiner” for complaining about party processes…

The motion read, in part: “Australian Young Labor recognises that Senator John Faulkner is a hypocrite, an ineffective member of the Federal Parliament and a contemptible charlatan. We recognise that as cabinet secretary he oversaw the largest decline in the cabinet process in history.”

I’m not sure if he was in charge the whole time, but the substance of the quote is true.

Token

5 Feb 13 at 5:06 pm
A couple of years ago, there was a guy from the Left of NSW Young Labor who wrote an oped in the SMH that – from memory – said at candid forum moments, Young Laborites of the Right will cheerfully proclaim their willingness to do anything – anything – to get their snouts in the trough.

What ever it takes – as their mentor and sage, Richo, said.

I am reminded of young wannabes in commodity trading and investment banking, who can display similar levels of ‘pick me, me, me’.

Young wannabe traders and banker of course have to participate to greater-or-lesser degree in commerce to make their pile.

For the Labor Right – commerce appears to be what you suck the blood out of on your way to the polished seats of a political career. ( ref ICAC ).

Myrrdin Seren

5 Feb 13 at 5:08 pm
Magnesiumth!

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 5:20 pm
Gillard has never progressed beyond student politics. Advised by her failed Scottish Rasputin, she is incapable of seeing beyond the short term politics of anything.

H B Bear

5 Feb 13 at 5:29 pm
From Bolt, Essential unchanged @ 54:46 2PP.

Huckleberry Chunkwot

5 Feb 13 at 5:38 pm
Gotta love that Labor experience in the real world.

the ministry has been involved in the political industry for 534 years, or to put it in another context 180 years more than the total experience of all their other combined industries

The full list of work experience before entering parliament (in years)

Union: 157
Politics: 141
Legal: 62.5
Academia: 33
Small Business: 22*
Entertainment: 20*
Charity: 15*
Public Service: 15
Journalism: 8
Corporate: 7*
Defence Force: 5*
Private Sector: 4*

More at http://www.reasonablylikely.com.au/the-alp-ministrys-collective-resume/

Adam Diver

5 Feb 13 at 5:38 pm
I hope they’re able to reconstruct the face so we can see what he really looked like.

They already have:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21328380

Viva

5 Feb 13 at 5:39 pm
Befuddledth!

Cold-Hands

5 Feb 13 at 5:40 pm
I really hate it when asterisk is placed indicating a further explanation somewhere, only there is none!

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 5:43 pm
Does the ABC understand when an election period starts?
Methinks not

Steve of Glasshouse

5 Feb 13 at 5:44 pm
A new Fred has appeared while I was playing myself some music and getting all nostalgic for Da Hairy Ape, who is in another city on business, leaving me home alone. I will have to make do with Fred.

I think maybe I will hop in the car and buy myself a nice Chinese take-away to have later tonight. HIA doesn’t much like ‘Chinese’ food in Australia because he says it is never really Chinese like he has in China, a country which he frequently visits.

I am pitching the idea to myself – it’s a silver lining, a great opportunity, a tired cook’s reward (nope, that won’t fly), not much trouble (yep, good), and then I apply Da Ape’s special pitch he gives to me – you can afford it now Lizzie.

There was a time when I was studying for my matric when I lived on one delicious meal of take-away Chinese a day, Chicken Rice and Tomato Sauce, the cheapest on the menu, from a disgustingly dirty shop on the way home from Tech. I had nowhere to cook in my room so I had to buy take-aways. Well, truth to tell, I did have a gas ring and a sink, but I was mostly thinking too hard to cook anyway. It was a seedy area in those days and sometimes guys would follow me along the pavement in cars, and I’d have to tell them to piss off and look after myself.

One night I burst into tears in the lab at the end of biology class, and a kindly Estonian lab assistant took me home to her mother, a big lady with some steel teeth, who looked at me and said eat, eat, eat. They fed me and put me to bed, and I never burst into tears in that class or any other again.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

5 Feb 13 at 5:45 pm
* = the dregs on the 3rd space craft. Hitch Hikers guide to the Catallaxy

Steve of Glasshouse

5 Feb 13 at 5:46 pm
I really hate it when asterisk is placed indicating a further explanation somewhere, only there is none!
Gab, the asterisks refer to text underneath the tables. For example, the Entertainment and Charity experience belongs to Peter Garrett.

Cold-Hands

5 Feb 13 at 5:53 pm
Interesting story, in fact, would be of interest to some young thing out there who may benefit from your experience, Elizabeth or may simply enjoy and learn from same. If only there was a way your experiences could be recorded and sent out into the world for other people to read…Elizabeth.

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 5:54 pm
Yes but Cold-Hands there are no *s indicating a match to the first lot of *s. This is just wrong.

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 5:56 pm
Please labor, I can’t handle any more popcorn right now.
‘Charlatan’: Young Labor members take a swing at Faulkner

Is this a case of spontaneous party combustion.

Keith

5 Feb 13 at 5:58 pm
It’s like going to the shoe closet only to find the pair of Louboutins has the left shoe is missing.

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 5:59 pm
Whoops I see I have doubled up with Token.

Keith

5 Feb 13 at 6:00 pm
the pair of Louboutins has the left shoe missing.
It wouldn’t bother this chap..

Cold-Hands

5 Feb 13 at 6:05 pm
@ Gab

My Bad I promise I won’t misquote again*

* Promise refers to the Macquarie dictionary definition. i.e however Gillard wants to interpret the word.

Adam Diver

5 Feb 13 at 6:08 pm
But that is not what I want to write a book about, Gab. Maybe one day. But I must admit these things just bubble up on me a bit and overflow to the Cat – sorry about bothering people with that.

I have some other thoughts to write about that deal with perhaps more important stuff, in the C5th and C6th AD.

I have to get that over and done with first. And keep up with the Cat too.

Enjoying the Richard the Third discoveries muchly, too.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

5 Feb 13 at 6:08 pm
Sorry, try this link.

Cold-Hands

5 Feb 13 at 6:09 pm
Looks like Ms Gillard is wearing j.Faulkner’s glasses.

candy

5 Feb 13 at 6:09 pm
sorry about bothering people with that.

Not bothering me; I rather enjoy reading them.

But that is not what I want to write a book about

That’s a shame for many reasons, still if the heart’s not in it, then no point. So continue to bubble away here for my pleasure.

I have some other thoughts to write about that deal with perhaps more important stuff, in the C5th and C6th AD.

And I look forward to reading them before I shuffle off this mortal coil. *stern look with one raised eyebrow directed at Elizabeth *

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 6:15 pm
lol that’s an excellent escape, Adam.

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 6:16 pm
Gillard …… (and) ……her failed Scottish Rasputin ……

Nice work HB!!!

Leigh Lowe

5 Feb 13 at 6:27 pm
I know nothing about stock exchanges, but wouldn’t the prices rise if there was some serious money printing (inflation) going on?

Ellen of Tasmania

5 Feb 13 at 6:29 pm
Where I am now you can’t get even a decent non-authentic Chinese meal, Lizzie.

Go and get that takeaway and have a short soup for me.

Abu Chowdah

5 Feb 13 at 6:30 pm
Looks like ICAC read my blog post asking whether Carr, Bourke, Bowen etc ever got any campaign finance or cash from Eddie Obeid. Eddies financial tentacles (tens of millions long) are quite likely to have reached into every corner of the ALP. Good to see Shorten named in ICAC. Eddie is the gift that will just keep giving…….until Tripodi takes the stand.

John Robertson is also named in ICAC the Tuesday after the Sunday ABC news gave John Robertson a tongue bath over his tough new rules against ALP corruption. The ALP is corrupt to the core.

John Comnenus

5 Feb 13 at 6:35 pm
And Mr Obeid also listed federal employment minister Bill Shorten, former state minister Carl Scully, state opposition leader John Robertson and former senator Mark Arbib as guests at the chalet.

stackja

5 Feb 13 at 6:36 pm
Hey Gab,what’s normally the time lag for Hansard.
Barnaby had a cracking lampooning of Wongs purchase of some farm/station.
I was driving and in tears laughing.
I’d love to put it up here.

( I’ve been remote and newsless for 2 days so the story may already have broke, but Barnabys telling was some of his best )

jumpnmcar

5 Feb 13 at 6:43 pm
Good to see Shorten named in ICAC.

Yes, but Shorten denies it apparently. Hopefully there are photos and records of some sort.

jupes

5 Feb 13 at 6:44 pm
Yes, but Shorten denies it apparently.

He hasn’t heard it but he denies whatever Julia denies.
And he’s sure she’s right.

jumpnmcar

5 Feb 13 at 6:48 pm
Usually around midnight or sometimes the following day, Jump, AFAIK

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 6:48 pm
Finally it looks as though Turnbull might earn his keep:

The Coalition has designed a two-pronged attack on Labor’s $37.4 billion national broadband network in an effort to transform it from a vote-winner for the government to a liability in time for the federal election.

Liberal Party MP and former Optus executive Paul Fletcher told The Australian Financial Review his party would try to make voters see the NBN as an example of Labor ineptitude by the next election.

“The politics of NBN at base come down to the fact that this government has a very poor track record on implementation and when you look at the NBN, it’s one of the worst,” he said. “Our task is to demonstrate we have a credible and sensible plan and Malcolm Turnbull has been developing a plan to build out a network making heavy use of fibre to the node.”

From the AFR posted at Michael Smith’s.

Cold-Hands

5 Feb 13 at 6:52 pm
Go and get that takeaway and have a short soup for me.

I second the short soup. Haven’t had one for yonks, and I’ve got a hankering for it.

nilk

5 Feb 13 at 6:55 pm
37.4 bn NBN?

No. Much more expensive.

.

5 Feb 13 at 6:58 pm
Usually around midnight or sometimes the following day, Jump, AFAIK

OK, thanks Gab, I’ll look 2morra arvo.

jumpnmcar

5 Feb 13 at 7:21 pm
Shorten must put the denial on record in QT tomorrow.

We’ll see.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 7:24 pm
Another balmy evening – 26ºC, ceiling fans of low, nice sunset happening through the open double doors and the shaded verandah. Had a Stella Artois, bbq’d and now enjoying the lemon, parsley and macadamia prawns on a bed of white rice with a glass of Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc. More of the wine to come. Very nice.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 7:36 pm
Kenyan’s uncle faces deportation from the US.

Obama’s Druncle Omar Faces Deportation Hearing
Posted by Jammie on Jan 31, 2013 at 9:51 am
uncleomarobama

For some strange reason the hearing isn’t for another ten months. But let’s face it, this lowlife drunk isn’t going anywhere.

A Boston judge today set a Dec. 3 deportation hearing for President Obama’s uncle, Onyango Obama, to determine whether he should be forced to return to his native Kenya.

Immigration Judge Leonard I. Shapiro set the date during a brief hearing in a Boston immigration court. Obama joined a crowd of more than 30 immigrants from Pakistan, Guatemala, and Uganda who were facing hearings.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 7:37 pm
Women urged: Be nice, cook, and have sex
the soothing sound of common sense

Tiny Dancer

5 Feb 13 at 7:40 pm
7.30 Report has … Tony Windsor!
What is so compelling about interviewing this loser, this misrepresenter of his rural (conservative) electorate.
He says he’s only been approached by eleven people who disagreed with him!
He seems nervous. Tries to cast doubt on both their houses. This is really misleading as it only has traction where you look at the individual polling, not the two party preferred, which is unambiguous.
At least admits Sept 14 is not set in stone.
A lot of big things in parliament we still need to do? Crap. The government he’s supported has done quite enough damage to date.
Craig Thompson? There’s no way you can know he’s a crook!

blogstrop

5 Feb 13 at 7:53 pm
37.4 bn NBN?
No. Much more expensive.
It’s the AFR, so they’re still spinning the Gubbermint line.

Cold-Hands

5 Feb 13 at 7:56 pm
Tiny

The better a man can provide bfor his whole family, inclusing his wife, the more cooking, the more being nice and the more sex he gets.
Same as it ever was.

So you measure access to sex, kind words and cooking on how much free time the woman has and well if she is busy working full time you had better carry half the load of coooking and kind words, or you wont get much sex at all.

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 7:58 pm
“Former NSW Labor minister and party historian Rodney Cavalier said:
“People should not dismiss the escapades of Young Labor lightly. …

All of them are seeking paid employment inside what used to be called the Labor movement …

“The moment they are employed, their life’s experiences come to an end. They will not mature beyond that moment.”

Rod Cavalier, who is smart, wrote and spoke of Labor’s “shallow gene pool” a decade ago. They paid no attention then and they’ll pay no attention now.

Standing back and looking at how this thing has gone all scattered cats since last week’s certainty giving election announcement I doubt the Slapper, the fat bummed lying prepared-to-salt-the-earth-for-Labor Slapper, will last more than a few weeks.

Reps sitting for four days now (and the Senate in a week for four days) puts a mob of panicked people together to firstly suss out who is applying for what job elsewhere, so they can spike them; and secondly to attach themselves to the most attractive evacuation lifeboat from the sinking rat (no matter how imbecilic – e.g. Swan as leader, or Kate Ellis or Turnbull).

Mick Gold Coast QLD

5 Feb 13 at 8:03 pm
37.4 bn NBN?

Maybe the original ‘back of a bus ticket’ estimate in 2007 dollar values. But, without proper estimates, or a value analysis, or a cost benefit analysis (and certainly not anything like a proper economic appraisal) then who would know what the cost of the NBN will amount to in end-cost dollar values? $50 billion? $60 billion? Probably more like $75 billion.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 8:07 pm
Lizzie,
Ozzie Chinese tucker is a class of its own. It doesn’t need to resemble anything from anywhere else in the world to be delicious. I love all those “traditional” oz chinese restaurant dishes. Particularly those which are fiddly to do at home, like deep fried prawns or pork pieces with a nice batter and honey sauce and sesame seeds. They’re so fiddly to do – you have to deep fry them twice! I can’t do the other one either, “Mongolian Chilli Whatever” – could be lamb or beef. Too hard to get the consistencies right. Fried rice is also great – if someone else is doing it.
We go to yum cha at least several times a year, and enjoy it, but I still miss all those “traditional” aus-chino dishes. Curried prawns and rice! Yum!

blogstrop

5 Feb 13 at 8:09 pm
Survivor Canberra has been the best in the series so far.

Can’t wait till the dirt files move to Defcon 5

Rousie

5 Feb 13 at 8:09 pm
In Australia to become a functioning town the following used to have to occur:

1. Racetrack
2. Pub
3. Church
4. Chink restaurant.

Now I think you need a mardi gras and a writers festival.

Infidel Tiger

5 Feb 13 at 8:11 pm
Lizzie

what a story
“One night I burst into tears in the lab at the end of biology class, and a kindly Estonian lab assistant took me home to her mother, a big lady with some steel teeth, who looked at me and said eat, eat, eat. They fed me and put me to bed, and I never burst into tears in that class or any other again.”

I was in london many years ago woking as a nurse, flat stony broke, living overdraft top overdraft each month wondering how the hell I was goping to get outta da poverty (and still socialise – its called “whats on for free”)

Then I got a private nursing job – you are not going to beleive this – nursing Nigella’a (yes that Nigella who was probably only a baby) grandfather in an apratment near Marble Arch – a very old man and terminally ill.

But the loveliest old man I ever met.

I worked night duty in their apartment (huge) and every night Nigella’s garndmother cooked me a meal (three course) that was so delicious for me to eat all alone in the middle of the night in the huge kitchen on lovely plates.

Three courses every night and the most delicious food and I swear this a completely true story. I know where Nigella got it from. He Grandma and Aunty – both as divine cooks as her.

Her Aunty invited me to her house for lunch and I still recall the recipe. It was Coronation chiken followed by Summer Berry pudding. So Rnglish. This was in the late 1970s – and it was unforgettable. Those women could really cook!

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 8:13 pm
I’m reading Hilary Mantel at present. Hope she now does a follow-up on the earlier period.

blogstrop

5 Feb 13 at 8:14 pm
Onyango Obama?

I’d certainly exclaim: “Good Onya!” if Obama went.

JamesK

5 Feb 13 at 8:19 pm
Onya Go, Obama. (As he is escorted onto a plane by Immigration Officials).

Cold-Hands

5 Feb 13 at 8:22 pm
Time for some easy listening. Late Night Moods 3, the perfect after hours soundtrack. Lots of talented ladies singing excellent songs. Just the right background music for some light reading on the Kindle Fire.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 8:24 pm
Blogstrop.
The Windsor interview on 730 was instructive for a number of reasons.
Firstly, when asked if he would be running in September, he said he would, but was cagey about “possible changed circumstances”, citing a candidate ho died in the campaign (we can but hope). He trotted “poor health” out very early, so I suspect the cue is in the rack, but admission would remove what dwindling relevance he has. There is no way he will suffer the indignity of the thrashing which awaits.
Secondly, when asked about Gillard and Abbott, I expected him to run to form and go ballistic over Tony and defend the Slapper-in-Chief to the hilt.
He suggested, without any of the usual venom, that Turnbull would win the election in a canter ….. which must be something North of the 2PP of 56:44 currently enjoyed by Abbott. And his defence of Gillard was lukewarm. Gone was the assertion that the independents agreement is with the Lying Slapper and all bets are off if the elect Rudd.
Methinks the bells are tolling for the Altona Droner around the corridors of Parliament House

Leigh Lowe

5 Feb 13 at 8:27 pm
IT my town didn’t have a proper racetrack, but on occasion you could watch the trots around the local showgrounds, and sometimes the speedway. I hope that is good enough.

The daughter of the local chinese restaurateur was actually in my class in primary school.

I actually haven’t had Australian-grade Chinese for the longest time. It’s hard to find a good one these days – too many just serve up greasy pap in a plastic dish and call it done, so I’m very gun-shy about trying new ones. And besides, my local Thai takeaway does a mean curry.

brc

5 Feb 13 at 8:29 pm
Please stop all this Julia being thrown out talk. On reflection I couldn’t bear another reign of Rudd the Terrible.

brc

5 Feb 13 at 8:30 pm
We have the Windsor & Oakshott duo to thank for the disaster which has been visited on us from 2010-2013 – and not yet finished!

blogstrop

5 Feb 13 at 8:31 pm
In Australia to become a functioning town the following used to have to occur:

1. Racetrack
2. Pub
3. Church
4. Chink restaurant.

Now I think you need a mardi gras and a writers festival.

So you’ve been to Daylesford recently, Tiger?
There is no racetrack (although there is still a Speedway!)
Most pubs have been converted to boutique accommodation and spa treatment houses.
Churches? See “Pubs” above.
Chink Restaurant ….. hanging on by the skin of it’s teeth

Leigh Lowe

5 Feb 13 at 8:32 pm
Turbull would win the election in a canter i agree.
You have to accommodate the middlies or centre lefts who are pissed off with labor rorting.
I agree. Ram the message home to them that they are posin for not getting ris of the scum earlier (poison)
but you take Tony back to an election and my guee is he is tainted by two things *owrkchoices and his attack dig style yunder Howard during the pro Iraq stage of Aus govt).

You can laugh this off if you like but if you want more votes there was a huge amount of people didnt like that and TA was very much part of that period and the war push. Tainted.

Dont shoot me. Im only the messenger.

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 8:33 pm
thats poison, scrum and rid and guess and workchoices and gog

oh god my spelling is really bad. I give up.

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 8:34 pm
He trotted “poor health” out very early, so I suspect the cue is in the rack, but admission would remove what dwindling relevance he has.

Spot on.

He is such a weasel and yeah, of course he’s only looking out for his skin, bugger the electorate.

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 8:34 pm
Ay, caramba! What I linked to at 8.24pm is not what I am listening to. But this is the right Late Nite Moods 3.

Heh. Sorry about that.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 8:36 pm
John Faulkner has been labelled a “hypocrite” and a “contemptible charlatan” by members of Australian Young Labor

Says it all really.

Totally and utterly disgraceful.

mct

5 Feb 13 at 8:36 pm
Alice, do you think Mr Turnbull connects with people, charisma and so on?

candy

5 Feb 13 at 8:37 pm
by members of Australian Young Labor

Bunch of clueless brats with delusions of significance.

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 8:39 pm
Further apology. Delta Goodrem ‘Lost Without You – track 6 – now playing.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 8:39 pm
No racetrack or chinese restaurant in my town.
We’ve plenty of other facilities though, that have never been in any town where I’ve lived or worked.

I’d always thought the presence of two things denoted a “town”:
Police Station,
Post Office.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 8:40 pm
Born Nigella Lucy Lawson
6 January 1960 (age 53)[1]
London, England

from Wiki.
So Alice, Nigella was just a baby in the late 70′s eh?
By my reckoning she was probably around 19 and very much a babe.

Huckleberry Chunkwot

5 Feb 13 at 8:42 pm
Candy – actually I do think he connects (Turnbull)
He is quite charming.

You see Tony has two sides. One we have seen when he was a vocal supporter of Howard and has since mellowed but I think its left a distrust in people that anyone could change from being quite that agressive and well when it came to Iraq – he was in there boots at all and vocally so
but now he is well behaved and gentlemanly?

Still I dont think he quite carries the trust eg like OFarrell did (I mean Bazza has somnething mainstream appealing doesnt he? Boring some say, but sort of solid and dependable. He never looked like someone who stuck their neck out verbally or took an extreme position and vocally as far as Abbott)because of that.

Just my take on it. I sort of agree with Windsor on his comments on Turnbull.

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 8:44 pm
Hmm … wrong link … incomplete parentheses … what next? Have to check the alcohol content of the Savvy B. Will do so when pouring glass number 4.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 8:47 pm
Aliiiiice

Gillard called you, and all other married women whores.

Gillard is the extremist.

.

5 Feb 13 at 8:48 pm
I’d always thought the presence of two things denoted a “town”:
Police Station,
Post Office.

You would seldom be invited to parties is my guess.

I’m talking about real towns.

Infidel Tiger

5 Feb 13 at 8:48 pm
It’s absolute crap to say that Abbott is tainted by Workchoices but Turnbull isn’t. They were both very much part of the government.

What people like about Turnbull is that lefties who would never vote for him could possibly stomach him as PM.

Whereas that will never do. If you’re going to have a conservative leader, you need one that lives in their heads for eternity, driving them nuts.

Newman is a great case in point. He infuriates socialists like few other modern leaders have been able. Imagine being competent and not putting up with lefty BS. The cheek of the guy!

brc

5 Feb 13 at 8:51 pm
Then you guess wrong IT!
I’m invited to every party going.
What is the basis for your guess?

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 8:52 pm
This Libs would win easily with Turnbull meme has to be one of the greatest crocks going around. Labor wiped the floor with him when he was Leader of the Opposition and would do so again.

The idea that the Member for Goldman Sachs could carry middle Australia is laughable.

H B Bear

5 Feb 13 at 8:53 pm
Turbull would win the election in a canter i agree.

Understand this Alice.
Turnbull has got as much chance of leading the Liberal Party again as I have of getting a full Monica Lewinsky from Beyonce.
After he rolled over on climate change, branch members were incandescent. As a result, despite the fact that he is the darling of the Q&A set, it ain’t gonna happen.
Apart from a couple of North Shore/Toorak doctor’s wives electorates, anyone who endorsed Malcolm would be in serious pre-selection shit!

Leigh Lowe

5 Feb 13 at 8:53 pm
Thanks, Viva.
And thanks to the other person on the old Open Thread who posted that interesting link to other British historical/anthropological info.

kae

5 Feb 13 at 8:54 pm
Huck

Whatta trying to say? Liar liar?
Why dont you write to Nigella dn ask hewr if her grandparents lived in a three bedroom apratment with aview of Marble Arch and a spanish maid they called “Florrie?”

I cant recall her exact age. I was only twenty three myself and if Im a certain age then Nigella isnt that much younger and that date of 53 has me amazed.
Her father was Nigel Lawson the Chancellor of The Eschequor. I met him three times and her never.
Go to write to the family. get your own eveidence I am lying.

You know I really love people in here who attempt to tell me my own life was a lie as if they are experts. I havent even told them yet about the Viscountess Pollington I worked for, who married and divorced the future Earl of Meaxborough, had a dughter called Alethea (Right honourable Alethea Saville) who was dating some guy from the gibley’s Gin family and then had a tragic accident when she wasstill quite young.

What are you trying to do – make me out to be a liar because I never met Nigella??
The english loved hirig Aussie and I just worked you fool and met some funny people.
Im old. I have lived. I have stories that happen to be true. Get over it.
I was just guessing Nigella’s age. I never eben met her. I didnt know Nigella is 53. Sure doesnt look it.

I nursed her grandfather, not her. Either way she was younger than me.

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 8:55 pm
Then you guess wrong IT!
I’m invited to every party going.
What is the basis for your guess?

If you think having wallopers and posties makes a town a town.

Struth. You’re a publican. Everyone knows that when you established a town in Australia the first buildings that went up were a pub and a church. The fun police and the bureaucracy came much later.

Infidel Tiger

5 Feb 13 at 8:56 pm
@Leigh Lowe. Amen to that.

The Liberal Party is a very top-down hierarchal party, pretty much the opposit of a democracy. For the membership to revolt & result in the removal of the leader is pretty much without precedent.

Turnbull musta been really bad as leader.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 8:56 pm
“Just my take on it. I sort of agree with Windsor on his comments on Turnbull.”

Thanks for your thoughts, Alice. I agree Mr Abbott has some baggage over the last couple of years of John Howard’s time – especially Work Choices! they went too far with that. My understanding is that Mr ABbott was not in full agreement with it, but what could he do?

candy

5 Feb 13 at 8:57 pm
I’ve been watching MKR.
Watching the contestants last night when they received low marks reminded me very much of the “reasons” given by students for remarks.

“Oh, even though I didn’t pass, I worked very, very hard and I should get a higher mark for my efforts.”

And so they go. I think it’s a cultural thing, too.

kae

5 Feb 13 at 8:57 pm
A lot of country towns withered when the local banks shut down.

Strangely, many country towns have re-opened bank branches in recent years.

Pedro the Ignorant

5 Feb 13 at 8:57 pm
IT, are you aware how few towns in Australia have anything more than a pub, general store, post office & police station? (NB: those 4 aren’t always 4 separate buildings either).

Though they aren’t that common, there are towns without a pub.

“District” is about as far as anywhere gets without either a police station or a post office.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 8:59 pm
I havent even told them yet about the Viscountess Pollington I worked for, who married and divorced the future Earl of Meaxborough

So the Pollington family married into the Meaxborough family?

Forgive me but I have an interest in English peerages. I have very, very old ancestry ala a Marcher Lord who married down.

.

5 Feb 13 at 8:59 pm
Viva
He certainly wasn’t an ugly young man.

kae

5 Feb 13 at 9:00 pm
Women urged: Be nice, cook, and have sex
A commentator pouring fuel on the fire at Tiny’s link.

“A man, though he be grey-haired, can always get a wife. But a woman’s time is short”.

Cold-Hands

5 Feb 13 at 9:01 pm
and either way, believe me or not, Nigella’s Grsndmother and Aunty were both superb cooks and looked like her.

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 9:01 pm
No comment was made about the veracity of your tale Alice. I was merely making a play on words (baby/babe) regarding a very, very, very fine woman.
I did make comment the other day regarding your comprehension skills though.

Huckleberry Chunkwot

5 Feb 13 at 9:01 pm
IT:..er.. your use of the plural: Walloper(s) & Postie(s) is what would be called a “tell” in poker.

If a place is big enough to have more than one of either, then there isn’t any doubt about it being a town.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 9:02 pm
A lot of country towns withered when the local banks shut down.

Strangely, many country towns have re-opened bank branches in recent years

I believe this is a demonstration of Say’s Law.

Unsustainable agriculture was propped up, and eventually, the bank(s) no longer had a market – eventually a core of productive farmers went out of business partly due to the insidious effects of subsidies – save for the biggest of farms which until recently saw very low cash returns on assets.

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:03 pm
@ Kae: That line gets used on me a lot. “I’ve worked so hard, it’s a real kick in the guts for you to tell me that my section’s profitability is going backwards.“

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 9:05 pm
Don’t follow you dot. In which country are you talking of propping up unsustainable agriculture? Of farmers going out of business due to the insidious effects of subsidies?

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 9:06 pm
Australia up until the 1990s.

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:08 pm
@ Kae: I’ll rephrase the above for clarity:
“It is impossible for this section to have become more inefficient under my control, as I work very hard.”

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 9:09 pm
Alice

Can you help me with the peerage stuff. I didn’t spend my lunch on wiki reading about early German (East Francia) history etc. for nothing!

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:10 pm
I agree Mr Abbott has some baggage over the last couple of years of John Howard’s time – especially Work Choices! they went too far with that.

Why do you think they went too far with it/? That is what the unions and the ‘fake’ ads Labor ran against it told you, not the facts.

Andrew

5 Feb 13 at 9:10 pm
Dot, I am unconvinced,and unaware of this.
Please list the subsidies received by Australian farmers (up until the 1990′s) and also what methods were used to prop up unsustainable agriculture.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 9:10 pm
@ Andrew: Bang on!
Despite all the scare talk, for the election advertising campaign the union movement had to script pretend scenarios of industrial bastardry, and use hired actors, as they were unable to find one single case of it in real life.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 9:13 pm
Dot Viscountess Pollington

Look it up. They start as Pollingtsons and when the heir secedes (succeeds??) they become the Earl of Mexborough (one of the most ancient of peerages with a tombstone in the major cahedral in London – which I cant recall then name – baaad).
God do you want me to get you a link?
Viscountess Pollinton (amiden name Elizabeth Grimsby) was divorced by the age of 45 with two children Rt hom Alethea Savile (?Saville) and Right hon Jonny Pollington, from father Lord Pollington who had not yet seceded (I think they all it) because the old Earl hadnt died when they divorced. He then married a “new” Viscountess Pollington. The way they distinguished between the “old” wife and the “new” was the single word “the”.
One became “Viscountess Pollington” and the other became “The Viscountess Pollington’.

Its all in Debretts Peerage I imagine. The Viscountess never worked. Money fell in her letterbox every day. She had never worked. She lived in Cadogan Square whivh is the primo W1 London address apart from Buck Pal.

She was very eccentric, very unusual, red head and a drunk by the age of 45. Very sad. Dined every day for lunch and again for dinner, either out or at home. Took holidays about 7 times a year and never unpacked her bag. Just bought new bag and clothes each time.
Came home at 4pm quite tipsy most days, slept got up and dressed and went out agaion. After each function (numerous cards came as invitations “so and so and so and so are “at home” on such and such a date and she was invited.

But she always came home nad got the Debretts out to check on liars who didnt really own the titles they said they did when she met them at functions.

Sad sort of Dot. I felt very sorry for her and she had heaps and heaps of money (I banked it for her and paid the bills etc). It really didnt make her any happier.

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 9:17 pm
Steve

It doesn’t matter if the financial outlay is minimal, if the subsidy makes agriculture uncompetitive it is highly important, agriculture has the highest sectoral multiplier in the Australian economy.

By doing this, the subsidy would ultimately remove the depositors from small towns as the industry withered.

Banks follow their customers. It was completely rational to downsize.

Here is what agriculture was getting up to 1996:

http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/94065/chapter3.pdf

Despite what they say about the effective rate of assistance, note that tobacco farming has basically been put out of business by taxation and repression of their end users.

For summaries, refer to Table 3.1 on page “47″.

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:17 pm
Alice, do you think Mr Turnbull connects with people, charisma and so on?

Not in places like Western Sydney or the middle to outer eastern suburbs of Melbourne. These areas are by and large, socially conservative. Turnbull does not connect in those areas, contrary to what lefties say.

Andrew

5 Feb 13 at 9:17 pm
Andrew, it lost them the election, so somehow it wasn’t handled right.

The ads seemed scary to me at the time.

candy

5 Feb 13 at 9:18 pm
Viscountess Pollinton (amiden name Elizabeth Grimsby) was divorced by the age of 45 with two children Rt hom Alethea Savile (?Saville) and Right hon Jonny Pollington, from father Lord Pollington who had not yet seceded (I think they all it) because the old Earl hadnt died when they divorced. He then married a “new” Viscountess Pollington. The way they distinguished between the “old” wife and the “new” was the single word “the”.
One became “Viscountess Pollington” and the other became “The Viscountess Pollington’.

That makes a shit-tonne more sense than what you said earlier. You inferred the Viscountess married her brother and then they became the Earl and Countess of Mexborough.

Thanks fuck the English keep their inbreeding to a minimum these days.

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:20 pm
Abu, Lizzie
Where I am I can’t get good Chinese food – but the Thai is to dai for!

kae

5 Feb 13 at 9:22 pm
Thanks fuck…

Bloody hell.

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:22 pm
Despite all the scare talk, for the election advertising campaign the union movement had to script pretend scenarios of industrial bastardry, and use hired actors, as they were unable to find one single case of it in real life.

I know for a fact that one of the ‘workers’ on an anti-WorkChoices ad was actually a ballet dancer. Having read Howard’s book, it seems many in the business community backed the idea or even wanted it to go further, but very few of those people wanted to publicly endorse the policy or help fund advertising campaigns. Shame.

Andrew

5 Feb 13 at 9:23 pm
No Dot – I dont know if the Pollintons married into the mexborough family (maybe did hundreds of years ago) but when these heirs move up a notch their name changes. they might have 6 surnames eg the baron of Seagrave, Sturton and comething else may have a different name before he becomes Baron.
its all very confusing.
But in that family Lord Pollinton was the grandson heir to the Earl of Mexborough meaning the first born male son pf the Earl was Viscount Pollington, and his son was Lord Pollington, and his father was the Earl of mexborough. So when the old earl dies, the viscount becomes the earl and the lord (or rit hon – I cant recall) becomes the viscount?

Do you get it? They all go up and get a different name!

Let me tell you Dot. It lost me as well.
What I couldnt get was why the daughter has a compeletly different surname to the others (Saville).

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 9:25 pm
Andrew, it lost them the election, so somehow it wasn’t handled right.

The ads seemed scary to me at the time.

I disagree. I think it was the ‘It’s Time’ factor and that people were hyped up about the environment at the time through fear campaigns that the Howard Government’s refusal to enact an ETS was not popular. WorkChoices had some influence, but not as much as people seem to think.

Andrew

5 Feb 13 at 9:25 pm
No Dot

This lady never made it to being the Earl’s wife (wonder what they would have called her then?) because she divorced the Viscount before he became the Earl so she doesnt get a name change anymore!

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 9:27 pm
Dot, whoever wrote that is on drugs or something.
It is full of generalised academic terms, but there is nothing specific.
The best they can do is focus on unspecified “assistance” to niche pseudo-horticultural activities that are carried out on the fringes of cities.

Am now even more unconvinced.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 9:28 pm
Andrew, it lost them the election, so somehow it wasn’t handled right.

The ads seemed scary to me at the time.

The ads were bullshit. The Liberals should have:

1. Passed the damned law early on – in the first month of Parliament sitting after the 2004 election, along with 2.- 6. outlined below.

2. Had it more simplified like the NZ IR law and scrapped the minimum wage.

3. Passed a tax cut at the time abolishing or significantly cutting excise tax, payroll tax and income taxes.

4. Capped compulsory super at 7.5% and abolished all, not just one of the three taxes on superannuation (effectively raises after tax contributions to 10.5% at a much lower cost to employers and thus wages and unemployment).

5. Lower the superannuation retirement age to 55 but raise the retirement age for the pension to 70.

6. Reduced the inflation target of the RBA to zero in the medium to long run and -2 to +2% in the short to medium term.

7. Researched the backstory on the ads and given a John Stossel like expose on the poor dears who got fired…for being shit at their jobs.

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:34 pm
The Liberals should have:
1. Passed the damned law early on – in the first month of Parliament sitting after the 2004 election….

Couldn’t agree more.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 9:36 pm
Out of all the investment fuckers in the world, this fucker needs a fork lift to carry his set of kahunas.

Bruce Berkowitz makes money the old fashioned way. He has a few good ideas and holds them forever. He was seriously hurt in 2011, but came back big time in 12.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/one-on-one-with-fairholme-s-brice-berkowitz-zBlSewj_T0KTInzut650UQ.html

JC

5 Feb 13 at 9:37 pm
The better a man can provide for his whole family, inclusing his wife, the more cooking, the more being nice and the more sex he gets.
Same as it ever was.

You’ve got it back to front, Alice.

Nowadays, it’s no longer a seller’s market.

Young men are bailing from the institution altogether.

So let’s re-write that:

The better a ~~man~~ woman can provide ~~for his whole family, inclusing his wife, the more cooking, the more being nice and the more sex he gets~~ traditional and attentive wifely love, the more likely she is to find a man willing to marry her.
Same as it ever was.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 9:38 pm
Dot, whoever wrote that is on drugs or something.
It is full of generalised academic terms, but there is nothing specific.
The best they can do is focus on unspecified “assistance” to niche pseudo-horticultural activities that are carried out on the fringes of cities.

Am now even more unconvinced.

You mean, like dairying, sugar, wheat, wine grapes, citrus…?

Yeah those whacky kids at the Industry Commission. Smoke a blunt then using the VLOOKUP function in Excel.

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:38 pm
If the ads were scary, they certainly did their job.

Andrew

5 Feb 13 at 9:39 pm
Craig Thomson: ‘You’ll never believe this but…’

“Putting aside anything I’ve said, if anyone was looking at this HSU saga from outside, you couldn’t script it,” he said.

“There’s a whole range of things that are quite unbelievable, but they’ve happened.

“Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.”

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 9:39 pm
I agree Mr Abbott has some baggage over the last couple of years of John Howard’s time – especially Work Choices! they went too far with that.

Candy, you fell for the union/alp/media line on this.
Not something to be out and proud of.

blogstrop

5 Feb 13 at 9:39 pm
Turbull would win the election in a canter i agree.

It’s like living in some Orwellian nightmare, where great swaths of recent history are simply memory holed.

Malcolm “14% approval as leader” Turnbull was utterly despised by the electorate, relentessly attacked as a blue blooded, silver spoon gajillionaire and couldn’t even land a touch on the “Psychopathic” Kevin Bloody Rudd.

Here in reality Tony Abbott will win the election “in a canter” so wtf are you and your idiot and utterly hated by his community friend Tony Windsor on about?

twostix

5 Feb 13 at 9:39 pm
“Turnbull does not connect in those areas, contrary to what lefties say.”

I can understand that, Andrew, he would seem a little ‘out of place’.

In all due respect to Alice, i find M. Turnbull kind of passionless, not particularlay persausive on anything to lead a party … each to their own but.

candy

5 Feb 13 at 9:40 pm
5. Lower the superannuation retirement age to 55 but raise the retirement age for the pension to 70.

Why?

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 9:41 pm
IT:..er.. your use of the plural: Walloper(s) & Postie(s) is what would be called a “tell” in poker.

If a place is big enough to have more than one of either, then there isn’t any doubt about it being a town.

Mate, it’s an old Australian joke that when towns were established in Australia it was a race to build the church or pub first and the racecourse followed soon after. Thanks for making me explain a joke. I’ll see if I can get one of those interpreter/hand signing ladies to help me in the future.

Maybe you’re a kiwi. In which case, I’m sorry for the confusion.

Infidel Tiger

5 Feb 13 at 9:42 pm
This Libs would win easily with Turnbull meme has to be one of the greatest crocks going around. Labor wiped the floor with him when he was Leader of the Opposition and would do so again.

LOL. So true. Australians hated Turnbull.

Stephen Conroy has bested him, ffs – and Stephen Conroy is retarded.

Remember that Windsor is a yellow, lying dog.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 9:43 pm
Just heard a commentator on Sky suggesting the NSW Right are considering making Swannie the Steven Bradbury of the ALP leadership.

Surely not. Kevnie won’t be happy.

Rousie

5 Feb 13 at 9:45 pm
The idea would be to encourage self reliance, Septimus.

I can see a practical argument against it but it doesn’t fit in with the way the demographic behaves financially.

Allowing people to retire earlier of they have enough money would ostensibly turn them into conservative leaning voters too.

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:46 pm
Breaking in the Herald Sun:

NEW senate leader Stephen Conroy and cabinet minister Tony Burke have admitted staying at Eddie Obeid’s Perisher ski lodge, as federal Labor figures become embroiled in the former party powerbroker’s corruption inquiry.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 9:47 pm
Just heard a commentator on Sky suggesting the NSW Right are considering making Swannie the Steven Bradbury of the ALP leadership.

Surely not. Kevnie won’t be happy.

Please do it AFTER the May budget.

.

5 Feb 13 at 9:48 pm
Oh, speaking of Kiwis, there’s a campaign the eradicate cat.
Good slide show.

jumpnmcar

5 Feb 13 at 9:48 pm
It’d be easier and quicker to ask ‘hands up those Labor ministers who haven’t stayed at Obeid’s lodge’

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 9:48 pm
Tip a beer cart over and a town will sprout. It may only be Tennant but its still a town by any standard. Helps if theres a bit of gold.

Pickles

5 Feb 13 at 9:49 pm
What’s confusing about the Earls of Mexborough? The eldest son and heir of the current (8th) earl has the courtesy title of Viscount Pollington; his surname is Savile, and, should he outlive his father, he will in turn become the 9th earl, and then his eldest son would have the surname Savile but the courtesy title Pollington; all the earl’s other children will have the honorific, “Hon.”

Deadman

5 Feb 13 at 9:49 pm
Hands up who.
Yes who exactly has their hands up the ventriloquist dummy referred to as Gillard.

WhaleHunt Fun

5 Feb 13 at 9:50 pm
LOL.

DRUDGE is running this picture for its ensemble of Obama anti-gun headlines.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 9:50 pm
Oho!

Just what do we have here?

The Indian railroad engineer and craptastic soft porn bodice-ripper author, Pachauri, the chairman of the IPCC is cashing cheques issued by the extremist green group the World Wildlife Foundation.

So the IPCC is trousering $$$ from the WWF.

Nup. No conflict of interest there, eh, greenfilth?

Can you image the yowling and greenfilth caterwauling is Monckton accepted money from Xsrata?

This will be all over the media….

Any minute now….

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Feb 13 at 9:55 pm
What happens in Perisher stays in Perisher

Rousie

5 Feb 13 at 9:55 pm
I agree Candy – it is often a case of ech to their own.
I never really minded turbull but as you say some brand him as a Toff although I dont think he got branded so, quite as badly as Downer did in that regard.
Now he is a bit of a toff isnt he?

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 9:55 pm
The UK: On the precipice of a Dystopian nightmare.

GPs [general practitioners] are to be forced to hand over confidential records on all their patients’ drinking habits, waist sizes and illnesses.

The files will be stored in a giant information bank that privacy campaigners say represents the ‘biggest data grab in NHS history’.

They warned the move would end patient confidentiality and hand personal information to third parties.

The data includes weight, cholesterol levels, body mass index, pulse rate, family health history, alcohol consumption and smoking status.

Patients will not be able to opt out of the system.

twostix

5 Feb 13 at 9:58 pm
Deadman it confused me back in the 80s. I couldnt figure why all in the same family seemed to have different surnames.
I get it now. The richer and more important you are / or ancestors were the older the peerage the more names there are!

Aliice

5 Feb 13 at 9:59 pm
Yes who exactly has their hands up the ventriloquist dummy referred to as Gillard.

Hasn’t it been Big Bill Ludwig from the very beginning?

Cold-Hands

5 Feb 13 at 10:00 pm
Face of Richard III unveiled.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 10:00 pm
CL:

Remember that Windsor is a yellow, lying dog.

Cripes CL, I wish you’d stop praising that sewer-runner.

And what do you have against yellow, lyings dogs to insult the poor buggers by comparing them to something like Windsor?

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Feb 13 at 10:01 pm
Ah, Mk50, Pachauri is a “climate scientist”, doncha know. That was what the ABC’s standard, sycophantic, awarmist reporter called him to his face when he was in Australia a few weeks ago; and, of course, the old, corrupt fraud refused to correct her error.

Deadman

5 Feb 13 at 10:01 pm
GPs [general practitioners] are to be forced to hand over confidential records on all their patients’ drinking habits, waist sizes and illnesses.

As I said a few weeks ago, England is only marginally better off having been rescued from Hitler by the Americans. The country is a revolting toilet.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 10:02 pm
NEW senate leader Stephen Conroy and cabinet minister Tony Burke have admitted staying at Eddie Obeid’s Perisher ski lodge, as federal Labor figures become embroiled in the former party powerbroker’s corruption inquiry.

I always knew Tony Burke was a clown but this really confirms it.

He walks on the Murray Darling waters.

Is he the Jesus figure Moses Obeid has talked about?

The PM’s royal commission is a cover, not just to silence a RC into her affairs, but to blindside the Obeid investigation.

Mabye Holy Billy, Vicar of Joe, the foundation stone of a new labor paradise on earth, can ask the Papess, Holy Mother, Queen of Yarralumla and mediatrix of the ACTU and Sex Discirmination Commissions, if Burke actually is, following in the path of Tony Kelly (now, the morning star of witnesses) the beachouse Baptist, and is the Son of Whan.

It is not written in your law, said Burke. But you will see me sitting at the right hand of Joe Ludwig in Yarralumla.

“Fucken bewdiful poerty maaate”

Hopefully Alice and C.L will probably get all of the political and religious jokes.

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:02 pm
And what do you have against yellow, lying dogs to insult the poor buggers by comparing them to something like Windsor?

Ahahahaha.

Mark, as soon as I wrote that I thought, ‘hey wait – sounds like I’m slandering sleepy, loyal labs.’

My apologies to any sleepy, loyal labs reading.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 10:05 pm
Maybe you’re a kiwi

IT, I respectfully suggest there is plenty of Australia you ain’t seen yet.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:05 pm
Allowing people to retire earlier of if they have enough money

The qualification makes what you said at 9.34pm quite different. To my knowledge people who operate their own SMSF already have the option of retiring at 55. But, the behaviour of the Share Markets and Superannuation Funds in recent times makes it extremely hazardous to make that option available generally. The result is likely to be a significant increase in the number of persons reliant on benefits before they reach pension age and a further increase in the number of persons who subsequently become Age Pensioners with no other income and with reduced assets.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 10:06 pm
So King Richard III of England looked like a librarian grunge rocker who wanted to be a pirate?

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:06 pm
“Now he is a bit of a toff isnt he?”

Well, Alice, A. Downer spoke as you say like a “Toff” perhaps, but I think South Australians tend to sound a bit different?
my understanding is he was one of the best foreign ministers ever and an oustanding person of the Howard years?

candy

5 Feb 13 at 10:06 pm
I believe that all existing superaanuation accounts should be closed to further contributions and that new accounts be automatically created to take future contributions.

The new accounts should be subject to no contributions tax of any kind, however future pensions and lump sum withdrawals from those accounts would be subject to income tax.

Pensions and lump sum withdrawals from the original quarantined accounts to be subject to conditions currently in place.

This would have the effect over time of increasing the value of super at retirement plus discouraging superannuants of ‘lump summing’ themselves to the pension.

Steve of Ferny Hills

5 Feb 13 at 10:07 pm
Aliice, even more confusing for some is that the current Duke of Normandy, as well as the Duke of Lancaster, is our gracious sovereign, HM the Queen.

Deadman

5 Feb 13 at 10:07 pm
I’ve a fantastic (true) Windsor story, that provides some interesting background on him.
Alas it’ll have to wait until I bump into someone in person, as if I tell it here, the very nature of it will allow someone to track down my real name & address.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:07 pm
Septimus

15 years is a long time – also even by 55 consumption patterns are not those of a 30 something with a mortgage and kids.

To my knowledge people who operate their own SMSF already have the option of retiring at 55.

Even young uns like me?

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:08 pm
The Indian railroad engineer and craptastic soft porn bodice-ripper author, Pachauri, the chairman of the IPCC is cashing cheques issued by the extremist green group the World Wildlife Foundation.

Pach is a despicable human being. He was caught advising people not to eat meat under the pretext of global warming concerns, but the sack of shot was doing so because of his religious affiliation..He’s a Hindu.

Everything about these people at the top of the IPCC is truly rancid and disgusting.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 10:09 pm
Dot: It’ll take more than that small piece of dry-as-dust .pdf that is chockers with questionable methodology before I’ll accept that agriculture in Australia has ever been subsidised.

I remain unconvinced.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:09 pm
Oh, speaking of Kiwis, there’s a campaign the eradicate cat.
Good slide show.

Sick.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 10:10 pm
Dot: It’ll take more than that small piece of dry-as-dust .pdf that is chockers with questionable methodology before I’ll accept that agriculture in Australia has ever been subsidised.

Believe whatever the fuck you like then.

That’s on you.

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:11 pm
Patients will not be able to opt out of the system.

Fortunately lying to your doc about alcohol consumption will be a partial opt out.

Steve of Ferny Hills

5 Feb 13 at 10:11 pm
Forensic IT anlysis determined that your real name is Steve and your address is The Pub
You canna hide from IT bloodhounds

WhaleHunt Fun

5 Feb 13 at 10:12 pm
I remain unconvinced.

You’re an agricultural economics historian, Steve?

JC

5 Feb 13 at 10:12 pm
I’m certainly not going to believe a rancid little fabian-type paper Dot.

If (haha) there has ever been subsidy to agriculture in Australia, there will surely be more evidence of it… somewhere? Really, wouldn’t there?

Just saying.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:13 pm
Face of Richard III unveiled.

So he had Down’s syndrome.

Who knew?

I wonder if the revolting Andrew Sullivan will claim that like Trig his real mother was his sister?

JamesK

5 Feb 13 at 10:13 pm
You’re an agricultural economics historian, Steve?

Perhaps I am

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:14 pm
And its a XXXX pub so that narrows it down to the 20,000 pubs in Qld.

WhaleHunt Fun

5 Feb 13 at 10:14 pm
Watched a few snippets of QT today. Macklin and others attacked Abbott for not loving The Workers. Should be fun watching Conroy and Burke explain how many garbos, hospital orderlies and shearers joined them at the Obeid family’s ski lodge.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 10:14 pm
Did Shorten deny he stayed at the Perisher abode, or that he slept there.
Subtle difference you know.

Rousie

5 Feb 13 at 10:17 pm
Whalehunt: I can feel you closing in on me already!
I knew I should have been more obscure in my disguise.

You know, chosen a wider social group to hide in, perhaps fabricated an online ID as kiddy fiddler with ALP sympathies, or something like that.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:17 pm
Met a nice woman today who works for one of the big retailers-(Myer or Dj’s)- but say which on the management side.

She told me how they are getting absolutely hammered by the overseas online business and there’s no respite and they don’t know how to get out of it.

I suggested partnering with one of the biggies around the world like say a Neiman Marcus. She reckons they haven’t thought about it. These fuckers are gone. Their city outlets are going to end up as high end apartments.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 10:19 pm
I’m certainly not going to believe a rancid little fabian-type paper Dot.

The Productivity Commission…and free traders are ‘rancid little fabians’?

If (haha) there has ever been subsidy to agriculture in Australia, there will surely be more evidence of it… somewhere? Really, wouldn’t there?

Just saying.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/treasury/industry-protection-bill-hits-98bn/story-fn59nsif-1226385435912

Farmers received net combined assistance of $1.5bn in the year to June 2011, a steep fall over the past four years, as the government paid out less in drought assistance.

But…you reckon these subsidies…do not exist.

This is a report written in 2003…obviously by ‘Fabians’

http://www.thecie.com.au/content/publications/CIE-greening_farm_subsidies.pdf

John Humphreys, Martin van Bueren and
Andrew Stoeckel
Centre for International Economics

I know one of these guys personally and he is the founder of the LDP and now works at the CIS (IIRC).

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:23 pm
WTF?

QUENTIN BRYCE became the first Australian governor-general to visit Antarctica when her plane landed on the ice runway this morning at Wilkins Aerodrome in Australia’s Antarctic Territory.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 10:23 pm
Their city outlets are going to end up as high end apartments.

Or Swanky pubs. I liked the Grace Hotel’s bar for a very quiet drink after work.

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:25 pm
Martin van Bueren

Really? That’s his name?

JC

5 Feb 13 at 10:26 pm
Dot, perhaps you have difficulty after dinner or something. “Fabian-type” is not the same as “Fabian”.

Just saying. You perhaps should look into the subsidies for optical appointments.

On the matter of (faked) subsidies for agriculture in Australia, I’m a somewhat basic type. These things work better if translated into a particular case study.

I’ve worked on plenty of stations, & the odd farm, and never yet seen or heard of a subsidy of any type.

Do you have first hand knowledge? Or are you relying on something you read on the internet? (eg that “paper”)

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:26 pm
“This trip marks the centenary of the great Mawson expedition,”

And then she unveiled a plaque. Wonder the cost to taxpayers for the trip etc. Does Obeid have a chalet there?

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 10:26 pm
QUENTIN BRYCE became the first Australian governor-general to visit Antarctica when her plane landed on the ice runway this morning at Wilkins Aerodrome in Australia’s Antarctic Territory.

The Papess is consecrating Antarctica to the cynical heart of Joe Ludwig and his faceless saints.

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:27 pm
first Australian governor-general to visit Antarctica

End days. Snout. Trough.

Steve of Ferny Hills

5 Feb 13 at 10:28 pm
Does Obeid have a chalet there?

Dunno, a clue would be how readily available are hookers and stocks with which to resupply the bar?

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:28 pm
CL

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Feb 13 at 10:29 pm
SATP:

perhaps fabricated an online ID as kiddy fiddler with ALP sympathies

[as a disguise]

Yup. That’d hide you. You could be ANY member of the ALP (including that Wong chap’s strap-on) if only you’d used that disguise.

Mk50 of Brisbane

5 Feb 13 at 10:32 pm
Should be fun watching Conroy and Burke explain how many garbos, hospital orderlies and shearers joined them at the Obeid family’s ski lodge.

As part of the “brotherhood of workers sharing chalet time” are messrs Conroy and Burke allowed to claim valets, chambermaids, butlers, room service attendants and concierges?

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:33 pm
Peter Hitchens has a good albeit long blog post about, well, pretty much everything but it has a good observation describing how his old marxist comrades slid into New Labour and took the country:

A recent BBC Radio 4 programme, enquiring what had happened to the so-called ‘Euro Communists’ of the 1980s, concluded that they had more or less transmuted into New Labour, whose ideas and ambitions were first set out in their journal ‘Marxism Today’. The programme was right about this but, as usual among those who were never themselves on the inside of the far left, wrong about its significance.

It drew the conclusion that principled young men and women had dissolved their fervour in ambition and conventional politics. My view is, and always has been, that these young Marxists wisely adapted their Marxism to bureaucratic and parliamentary methods, and expressed their revolutionary intentions in a long march through the institutions. I always remember, just before a BBC Radio 4 discussion on whether the Left had won or lost, Comrade Dr Reid, then Defence Secretary, giving an interview in which he used the phrase ‘Pessimism of the Intellect; optimism of the will’.
…
Here’s my point. It is precisely because I was myself a sixties revolutionary that I understand the language, tactics and aims of the movement to which I used to belong, and can see and explain its many and various successes. Creating a world in which nobody was shocked to have an ex-Communist as Secretary of State for Defence was one of those successes.

And this good observation about the desires of the current political elite:

Mr Cameron and his allies, of course, want to destroy *conservatism* while keeping the *Conservative Party* in being , as a safety valve for conservatives in a liberal society. The same-sex marriage issue is a perfect vehicle for achieving this. What he desires is a country in which all the parties are in fact the same, but have different names so as to absorb tribal energies and maintain the tragi-comedy known as universal suffrage democracy. As I wrote long ago, Communist East Germany had a multi-party parliament. The only thing wrong with it was that all the parties, though they had different names, agreed on all important matters. I struggle increasingly to see any serious difference between the old People’s Chamber of East Berlin, and our current arrangements.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

twostix

5 Feb 13 at 10:33 pm
Septimus

To my knowledge people who operate their own SMSF already have the option of retiring at 55.

Correctly it’s had the option.

It’s being moved to 60 so if you were born prior to 1 July 1960 it remains 55 but for others it is a year by year move to 60.

dismissive

5 Feb 13 at 10:34 pm
Bryce is getting in all the freebies she can.

She apparently did it to commemorate Scott’s journey of exploration.

kae

5 Feb 13 at 10:34 pm
Do you have first hand knowledge? Or are you relying on something you read on the internet? (eg that “paper”)

…and maybe instead of using ABS inflation data I should ring up every shop in Australia and ask them what their prices are doing.

On the matter of (faked) subsidies for agriculture in Australia

You are deluding yourself Steve.

In NSW we had price supports for milk in my living memory.

Yes I know farmers that don’t need subsidies. I know the children of some very well to do farmers, some are descended from pioneers and the others have megabucks operations today. There was another farmer who lived near me when I was a kid who went bust because of the AWB restraint of trade.

So what? Agricultural subsidies existed in the past and continue to do so now.

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:34 pm
perhaps fabricated an online ID as kiddy fiddler with ALP sympathies

Or I could have disguised myself as a left-wing academic who makes a dickhead of himself everytime I use twitter.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:35 pm
The tobacco leaf industry was subsidized.

Gab

5 Feb 13 at 10:39 pm
Steve

Maybe you can explain why we had a national wool stockpile when I was a kid…if there has never been agricultural subsidies in Australia.

Maybe the wool farmers preferred to use wool as currency instead of $50 notes, and they were saving for a rainy day?

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:39 pm
You left out the floor price of wool Dot. But you should look into how some of this stuff is paid for, before declaring Australia to be some of agricultural copy of the USA or Austria.

The best you’ve done is milk price support in NSW. And declared the AWB restraint of trade to be bad (it was quite stifling at times). Are you aware of why those things began? (The origins are sometimes very revealing.

There are no end of free marketeers who want to throw Australian agriculture to the worldwide wolves.
These people have much in common with inner-city comforable greenies who want the rest of us to live in caves.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:41 pm
Dot, when were you a kid? It seems you are unaware of who was paying for that wool.
If you are suggesting it was an external subsidy, then you really should get some better spectacles and start reading more of those conspiracy theory .pdfs.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:42 pm
Oh no, Abbott went on to The Project. I am not sure if I want to watch that interview.

Andrew

5 Feb 13 at 10:43 pm
These people have much in common with inner-city comforable greenies who want the rest of us to live in caves.

Some do.

So you want the city to subsidize the rural sector so people won’t live in caves and starve.

That’s right?

JC

5 Feb 13 at 10:43 pm
Steve at the pub is a commenter on the Cat. Steve (Conroy) at the chalet is a representative of the workers in the Senate.

John Comnenus

5 Feb 13 at 10:44 pm
I’ve worked on plenty of stations, & the odd farm, and never yet seen or heard of a subsidy of any type.

Diesel fuel rebate?
Pre GST Sales Tax exemptions for Primary Producers?

Huckleberry Chunkwot

5 Feb 13 at 10:45 pm
JC, the rural sector subsidises the city to the nth degree at the moment.

Within 3 weeks of the rural sector divorcing itself from the cities, there would be rioting in the streets, as the population reverted to raw animals.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:46 pm
JC, the rural sector subsidises the city to the nth degree at the moment.

How so?

Within 3 weeks of the rural sector divorcing itself from the cities, there would be rioting in the streets, as the population reverted to raw animals.

Don’t flatter yourself. The agrarian socialist do have a constituency.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 10:47 pm
Huck, you’ll have to explain how the diesel fuel rebate is a subsidy.

It is a cost to agriculture.

And if you’re relying on lack of a tax as evidence of a subsidy, then you’re a goner.
Are you able to name the farm purchases that were not eligible for that sales tax exemption? Or the circumstances in which the very same tyre – destined for the very same use on the farm, would or would not, be eligible for the exemption?

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:49 pm
JC, 3 weeks is about how long it would take civilisation to break down to unhinged street rioting, were food supplies to be withheld.

This reliance upon the rural sector may be unpalatable to you, but it is fact.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 10:50 pm
If you are suggesting it was an external subsidy, then you really should get some better spectacles and start reading more of those conspiracy theory .pdfs.

Fuck me. You think the Productivity Commission is a ‘fabian conspiracy’.

Do you know who Kim Carr is?

Go on, tell us who paid that floor price. Who bought the wool. Etc.

There are no end of free marketeers who want to throw Australian agriculture to the worldwide wolves.

Like farmers. The NFF and Nats are basically free traders these days.

Hence why Katter split. Outside of Kennedy, he is a marginal figure.

These people have much in common with inner-city comforable greenies who want the rest of us to live in caves.

No.

.

5 Feb 13 at 10:52 pm
Correctly it’s had the option.

It’s being moved to 60 so if you were born prior to 1 July 1960 it remains 55 but for others it is a year by year move to 60.

Thanks dismissive @ 10.34pm.

Even young uns like me?

Don’t know how much of a youn un’ you are, Mark (Is that how I should address your good self?). If you were born before 1 July 1960 and if your Fund Deed provides for it, benefits can be taken on permananent retirement from age 55-59, either as a lump sum or an income stream. There are, however, likely to be tax implications from taking superannuation benefits early.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 10:55 pm
JC, 3 weeks is about how long it would take civilisation to break down to unhinged street rioting, were food supplies to be withheld.

It’s a little different, no? Pick out the most extreme example like the siege of Leningrad and say, “look, see what could happen”.

It’s a ridiculous example

This reliance upon the rural sector may be unpalatable to you, but it is fact.

No it isn’t. Over a short period of time the cities would import their food from elsewhere like Singapore and Hong Kong do. No biggie.

I asked you how does the rural sector subsidize the cities. You still haven’;t answered, unless you consider the siege of Leningrad to be useful in this exchange.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 10:56 pm
These people have much in common with inner-city comforable greenies who want the rest of us to live in caves.

People have been killed here at the Cat for a lessor insult…figuratively speaking of course.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 10:57 pm
Steve

By you arguing the agricultural sector multiplier is so large, all I have to do is show a small deleterious effect on aggregate farm productivity because of subsidies and my theory that bank closures were just a symptom of Say’s law in action under such undesirable circumstance is basically proven.

.

5 Feb 13 at 11:00 pm
Steve the alcoholic
You are right on most points but this is not one of them.

This reliance upon the rural sector may be unpalatable to you, but it is fact.

We have free trade and I will not starve if I have to eat Thai manufactured food but I will miss my beef. It is true most probably that the bush subsidises the city though.

kelly liddle

5 Feb 13 at 11:00 pm
Dot, I’d suggest your knowledge of farmers & agriculture & farmers comes from reading about them.

This gives you a lot in common with the ALP.

This conjecture is borne out by your suggesting that the NFF is representative of farmer opinion or something. The NFF is about as popular as a turd in a swimming pool. The nats are so popular amongst farmers that no end of farming districts have for quite some time elected an independant instead of the nat candidate.

That is just a clue.

If you are claiming the wool stockpile to have been the result of a subsidy, it behoves you to explain just what subsidy it may have been.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 11:00 pm
Steve, you did say a “subsidy of any type”.
To my mind, a rebate for purchasing fuel is therefore subsidising the purchase.

Huckleberry Chunkwot

5 Feb 13 at 11:03 pm
Kelly (you should make an effort to moderate your language when typing after dinner), please keep in mind that I am near teetotal. This is a choice, not a control mechanism. I am not who you may think I am.

Without the bush, Australian urban areas are just inefficient, expensive & lazy versions of Singapore.

No bush = bye bye Australia, hello poor white southern trash.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 11:03 pm
A lot of country towns withered when the local banks shut down.

Indeed they did, but the banks didn’t just ‘shut down’. They amalgamated, effectively resulting in multiple branches of the same bank in the same town. Naturally branches closed. A major factor in bank amalgamation was technology. Banks embraced IT and installed their own leased line networks. All sorts of economies of scale and efficiencies followed, encouraging banks to think they could serve a greater catchment area and shutting down entirely in some towns and leaving only branches in the larger towns. This enabled the small community banks to gain a toe hold into a niche market in some towns no longer being served by the larger players who basically went too far. Future technologies may see the closure of bank branches as we currently know them entirely.

Keith

5 Feb 13 at 11:04 pm
The excellent Eagles Farewell 1 Tour (Australia) is now playing though the headphones.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 11:06 pm
Dot, I’d suggest your knowledge of farmers & agriculture & farmers comes from reading about them.

If you’re not a farmer yourself, you know as much as me.

I don’t read people the same way I read books, I talk to them. I’m friends with six people in their 20s who are off cattle farms. One of my friends is one of their Dads!

The nats are so popular amongst farmers that no end of farming districts have for quite some time elected an independant instead of the nat candidate.

This is bullshit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_results_for_the_Division_of_Mallee

Just a clue.

Maybe you ought to look at the Reachtel polling for Lyne and New England.

If you are claiming the wool stockpile to have been the result of a subsidy, it behoves you to explain just what subsidy it may have been.

What’s your point? Don’t be cryptic. State your argument and do not set homework for us like Homer fucking Paxton used to.

.

5 Feb 13 at 11:09 pm
Steve
Just going by your screen name. Not sure how the discussion started but by leaving the Bush out of welfare, Australia has created probably the most productive in dollar terms agricultural sector in the world. This is how we should treat our city industry vehicles being the standout. Not saying vehicle manufacture will stay but something will.

kelly liddle

5 Feb 13 at 11:09 pm
Women urged: Be nice, cook, and have sex

Be nice (I try), cook (I try) and have sex (I don’t have to try)

———–

Abu and Nilk, as it was a nice evening I decided to walk to the local fancy Chinese restaurant and eat there, after some urging by telephone from HIA to do so and get out of the house for a while because it would do me good. (Apparently, he has some sort of sixth sense about dese t’ings)

On the way I stood gaping at the gateway of a deserted house as a flock of parrakeets flew in a fleet from a green pear tree in the garden growing wild. As the gloaming settled deeper down, the big bourgainvillia in another garden further along turned a dark plum purple blue. A man with a moustache came out of another gate and I heard it click as he waved to his neighbour coming home. There was no woodsmoke but there should have been.

The restaurant was the sort with tablecloths, lazy susan circles on top of the tables, and red lanterns hanging with tassels. People at the next table were speaking of a big ginger cat and I wondered if it was the fat one I see next door, sunning himself.

I ordered the short soup and it came in a small bowl with only three wontons in it. One for me, one for Nilk and one for Abu. I ate them all for us and I am glad you both enjoyed yours. Mine was pretty good too. They didn’t have chicken rice and tomato and I made do with Schezchuan Chilli Chicken and it was good enough for old times sake.

I didn’t get to read much of Niall Ferguson’s “Civilisation” which I took with me as extra company for the three of us, but I am enjoying it so far. Niall can come to bed with me now, although I suspect I may fall asleep on him far sooner than he deserves.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

5 Feb 13 at 11:10 pm
Huck, you are unware of what the diesel fuel rebate is.
This is likely a result of too many lazy (or left-leaning) journalists writing about it, and no attempt to correct this by the bodies who take farmer’s money to represent them.

To pay for road construction and maintenance there is a tax levied on fuel. The rationale: The more you use the road = the more fuel you burn = the more “road repair” tax you pay.

Fuel that is not used on public roads (eg that used in farm tractors to pull ploughs etc) has – quite obviously – never attracted this road-use tax.

Paul Keating changed this. Any fuel sold would be taxed, and if the fuel was for off-road use the purchaser can apply (in writing, by filling out a government form) to have the tax amount refunded.

Processing, and subsequent payment of this refund is not a quick process.

The diesel fuel rebate (as it is called by research-shy graduate journalists) is actually an interest free loan by farmers to the federal government.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 11:10 pm
Our unsubsidised and unprotected farmers are the best in the world. And yet stupidly we pretend that importing apples from NZ or pork from Canada will ruin us.

Infidel Tiger

5 Feb 13 at 11:13 pm
Does anybody go shooting here? As a sport in a club I mean?

What’s it like joining a club? What does someone who’s interested in it as a sport do to join up? Just rock up or do you need license first?

Is it worth while?

twostix

5 Feb 13 at 11:16 pm
Mate, a rebate is still a subsidy no matter how it’s dressed up.
Anyway, would love to stay & chat, but my shift is just about to start and I will be offline for the next 8 or so hours.
Toodle-pip.

Huckleberry Chunkwot

5 Feb 13 at 11:18 pm
Dot, stick to the internet. Poll results for one electorate, and polling in Oakshott & Windsor’s seats (post JG’s minority govt) is not proof that farmers all love the national party.

Keep in mind how many seats were held by National party sympathetic independants (pre-OakshotWindsor).

If knowing 6 people from cattle “farms” makes you an expert, then I see you and raise you by several hundred.

I’ve spent time on the road, and spent several years riding for the brand, culminating in a position as station manager.

I’ve some idea of the convoluted administrative hoops in Australian agriculture. And I never saw one cent of subsidy paid to any of my bosses.

Heard plent of it from archair experts though, as I’m hearing right now.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 11:18 pm
Chunka, you really should purchase yourself a dictionary.

By no stretch of the imagination is the diesel fuel rebate a subsidy.

No matter how you twist it.

Steve at the Pub

5 Feb 13 at 11:19 pm
Our unsubsidised and unprotected farmers are the best in the world.

IT
For once you agree with me. A rare occasion and maybe to be celebrated with another beer.

kelly liddle

5 Feb 13 at 11:21 pm
Stix

Skeet shooting is a great sport. It’s really fun and you get a lot of satisfaction when you get better at it.

For sket I strongly suggest an underand over as they’re better than a side by side.

It’s not hard to join a club. In fact they are always trying to get new members.

Not a member but have been frequently with a friend who does skeet and easy to join but simply haven’t bothered.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 11:22 pm
For once you agree with me. A rare occasion and maybe to be celebrated with another beer.

IT busily goes about looking to figure where he went wrong.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 11:22 pm
Dot, stick to the internet. Poll results for one electorate, and polling in Oakshott & Windsor’s seats (post JG’s minority govt) is not proof that farmers all love the national party.

Keep in mind how many seats were held by National party sympathetic independants (pre-OakshotWindsor).

For fuck’s sake. I mentioned the RECENT polling by reachtel in New England and Lyne.

If knowing 6 people from cattle “farms” makes you an expert, then I see you and raise you by several hundred.

Yes, knowing a farmer is different to grazier makes you a clever boy. So what, they’re called farms or “properties” around here, not stations.

You know 300 cattle farmers and they’re all personal friends? You talk to them outside of business and have their personal phone numbers?

Whatever.

I’ve spent time on the road, and spent several years riding for the brand, culminating in a position as station manager.

That disproves absolutely nothing.

“I was the CEO of GM Holden, therefore there are no car industry subsidies in Australia”

The exact same argument you are making now.

.

5 Feb 13 at 11:23 pm
Diesel fuel rebate?

Supposedly the portion of tax on diesel which goes to roads which farmers don’t use when ploughing, raking, harvesting, etc., so they are given it back.

kae

5 Feb 13 at 11:26 pm
The diesel fuel rebate is also available to miners, fishermen, coastal shipping and for off-grid diesel electricity supplies.

Steve of Ferny Hills

5 Feb 13 at 11:26 pm
Almost bed time. Have fast forwarded to the Hotel California track – excellent trumpet solo introduction, then into the very familiar 12 string guitar opening riffs.

Evening all.

Septimus

5 Feb 13 at 11:29 pm
Steve

Get back here and explain how the Wool Stockpile and price supports were “no true subsidy”.

I would never tell you how to run a cattle property (or a pub) but when you argue that Australian agriculture never got subsidies before the 1990s, you are talking out of your arse, son.

.

5 Feb 13 at 11:30 pm
Not a member but have been frequently with a friend who does skeet and easy to join but simply haven’t bothered.

Do you need a license to do that?

———————————–

Anyone who owns a gun how often do the cops inspect your safe?

Is reloading ammo worth it these days?

Do you have to choose the type of shooting you want to do then stick to that type? Like skeet shooting and firing a rifle on the range that’d need two guns how hard is that to organise?

Is moving interstate with guns a major headache?

twostix

5 Feb 13 at 11:31 pm
Off the current topic but why do so many object to statements such as this?

Nor should the argument seem strange that taxation may be so high as to defeat its object, and that, given sufficient time to gather the fruits, a reduction of taxation will run a better chance than an increase of balancing the budget.

kelly liddle

5 Feb 13 at 11:31 pm
By no stretch of the imagination is the diesel fuel rebate a subsidy.

Indeed. Just try to tell the miners that it’s a subsidy. In fact that’s what Bob Brown used to do.

Keith

5 Feb 13 at 11:32 pm
I will tell you what would happen if farmers stopped selling food to us urban hipsters, Steve. We would import every bit of it until the b-doubles loaded with the produce of the strike breaking farmer scabs get sold around your totally ineffective blockade.

The protectionists have always had a toehold in Australia, and post war the soldier settlement scheme ensured they were divisions of clueless farmers out there that needed handholding even to grow the crops, let alone have the foggiest about how to market the stuff. The big state ag departments were formed to solve the first problem, and selling the produce was the problem the great statutory marketing authorities were created to solve. And of course, to start with they did, shielding the ignorant from their own mistakes, letting producers not have to worry about how to sell their produce and what the customer might want, giving them the chance to learn farming on the job and make a real go of it.

And of course the wool and wheat booms of the fifties helped, although that wasn’t because of the SMAs.

These SMAs reached their zenith in Qld where you ended up with awesome named institutions like the South Burnet Butter Board, the South Burnett Cream Board, the South Burnett Brushed Millet Board and so on in each region. The government even owned butcher shops and controlled the sale of bread and milk. People didn’t have much choice, but at least it was cheap, you could have chops and htree veg and in comparison the XXXX tasted better.

Eventually , as the skills of the producers improved and generational change started to occur, the SMAs and regulated pricing passed their use by date, and were actually keeping their industries back while the older producers’ now anitiquated practices and inefficiencies were kept viable by the artificial prices maintained by government regulation. The QUANGOs in Queensland main purpose had become a training ground for QNP members (like the unions are for the ALP) and a vehicle to bestow favour on ~~voters~~ constituents. That was probably the number one reason Beattie killed them off. But they should have been ended years before for the benefit of their industries.

Any government institution will try to continue well beyond the time when its purpose no longer exists. It’s true for the IMF, and OECD, it will eventually be true for the IPCC, and its true for the AWC, the AWB, the CDO or any other acronym-bestowed authority you could care to mention.

Some SMAs died spectacularly , like the Wool Reserve Price Scheme, a grower led disaster that killed off wool prices for a decade and left a massive overhanging debt, all the while relying on the generous hand of the taxpayer. Others like the QMA which regulated milk prices in Queensland, guaranteed that the Qld dairy farmer fell further and further behind their cousins in Victoria, where a pool price system (ironically, a less market distorting regulation of the market than the quotas used in Qld) did not provide disincentives to improve efficiency and production. But the Qlders clung to their quota so much they convinced the processors to emulate it post deregulation, and now the Qld industry is struggling against milk brought up from south of the border, and conveniently blame the supermarkets.

And yet these old agrarian socialists still cling to the memories of the good times when they could produce whatever they damn well please and didn’t have to think about what the customer actually wanted.

entropy

5 Feb 13 at 11:32 pm
I think IT left out a /sarc tag, Kelly.

C.L.

5 Feb 13 at 11:33 pm
Speaking of this farming stuff, has any rigourous, laissez faire leaning economist who believes in good economics over ideology done a study of various moonbeam farming methods, like permaculture or natural sequence farming?

I’m sceptical of permaculture as a sustainable financial enterprise. Holistic and NSF make sense on paper.

I can smell a research grant…

.

5 Feb 13 at 11:36 pm
You do require a shooting license, if you’re not with a friend who okay’s you or whatever it is. The point is that you can get around no having a shooting license and go to a range/club and shoot provided someone there okay’s it. Not exactly sure of the angle.

Dunno to all those questions Stix. I don’t have a license and I am fine to shoot as I indicated above.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 11:37 pm
JC
So far as I know there has never been any licence to fire a weapon, only to own one.

kelly liddle

5 Feb 13 at 11:42 pm
dot, I think the farmers that practice those sorts of cultivation maximise their utility through other means than price.

If it doesn’t harm you, why care what they do under a full moon?

entropy

5 Feb 13 at 11:43 pm
Get back here and explain how the Wool Stockpile and price supports were “no true subsidy”.

Dot, wool is not a good example.

Mr Massy is critical of the government-backed – but grower-funded – reserve price scheme set up in 1974.

But everything you want to know about government meddling in the dairy industry is here.

Steve of Ferny Hills

5 Feb 13 at 11:43 pm
Oh Okay. That’s it then, Kelly. Thanks.

JC

5 Feb 13 at 11:44 pm
Gillard standing by Conroy ( who thought the whole thing was a laugh, on ABC 24 news) and Burke.

You can imagine the confected outrage if it had been Abbott staying at a chalet owned by someone of the calibre of, say, Russ Hinze.

Tiny Dancer

5 Feb 13 at 11:45 pm
Steve

Who picked up the tab until it was privatised? Who paid for the dole payments of farmers who went bust under that ponzi scheme?

It was grower financed until it went tits up.

.

5 Feb 13 at 11:46 pm
Who cares. It’s not what Gillard thinks. It’s what voters think.

Steve of Ferny Hills

5 Feb 13 at 11:47 pm
IIRC correctly there was no scheme before 1974.

In 1998 the Australian Government announced its intentions to privatise Wool International and pass ownership of the wool stockpile to shareholders. Parliament legislated a freeze on stockpile sales until 30 June 1999 and appointed an interim advisory board to facilitate a smooth transmission from Government to private ownership.

Given that the stockpile was grower funded, I doubt that much taxpayers money was involved.

If the dole is regarded as an industry subsidy then the government is subsidising the dope industry (and every other industry).

Steve of Ferny Hills

6 Feb 13 at 12:02 am
Russ Hinze was four times the man Obeid is.

Literally.

WhaleHunt Fun

6 Feb 13 at 12:03 am
Steve

The article you linked to claims a 10 bn loss.

The scheme was short sighted and it sent people broke.

Who picked up the tab? The taxpayer, paying once self employed wool growers a pittance.

.

6 Feb 13 at 12:06 am
WA still has a statutory potato marketing board telling people how many and what type of potato to grow. You can actually get a few different varieties now but nothing compared to the potato stall at the South Melbourne markets. I haven’t had a look at the annual report but I suspect there a few public servants making a comfortable living and a few ex-polies or party hacks pulling directors fees for a couple of weeks work a year.

I don’t know why Liberals don’t shut this sort of thing when they have the chance.

H B Bear

6 Feb 13 at 12:12 am
Steve of Ferny Hills:
When the WRP collpased the debt, some $3.5b from memory, was underwritten by the taxpayer. This was carried for the decade it took WI to sell the stockpile, including the interim period when no sales occurred when Ian McLachlan did John Anderson over in Cabinet the day John’s child died.

In addition, the taxpayers paid out $300 million to woolgrowers in adjustment payments when the price collapsed, as well as a stock slaughter scheme at about $2 a head to bring the flock numbers down.

I once expected to live my career in the wool industry, but I saw the writing on the wall in 1988 when the industry got greedy by government fiat and fixed the floor at a ludicrous price, so I bailed just in time. Still wear wool though. And to this day clowns still hark back to the good old days of the ‘floor price’. All schemes like that never end well.

entropy

6 Feb 13 at 12:13 am
Discrimination!

What about the Sweet Potatoes?

.

6 Feb 13 at 12:14 am
QUESTION:

Would Kevin Rudd be a tougher opponent?

TONY ABBOTT:

That’s really a matter for the Labor Party and my plea is they should sort their problems out because these are not easy times for our country. Many, many Australians have suffered this summer through flood and fire and they expect a strong and stable government and sadly, that’s not the perception of things right now in Canberra. So I do say that the government should sort its problems out. It should stop focusing on itself. This is what the people expect. They want the government to be focused on them, rather than on its own internal shenanigans.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 12:17 am
Shit why did I make that joke?

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201210/s3602932.htm

The Australian Sweet Potato Growers group is canvassing its 90 growers, 85 per cent of whom are in Queensland, to introduce a marketing and promotions levy.

.

6 Feb 13 at 12:18 am
Yes HB, and interestingly enough, because the price is guaranteed, the variety the WA growers grow is the one that generates the highest yields, but has other features that make it a lot less attractive for certain markets (makes crap chips, for example).

Improved transport and logistics across the nullabor will eventually kill off that little racket.

entropy

6 Feb 13 at 12:19 am
Doesnt WA still ban sunday trading?

entropy

6 Feb 13 at 12:20 am
Dot and what is wrong with Sweet potatoe farmers forming a union?

kelly liddle

6 Feb 13 at 12:22 am
Sorry, Dot. It’s late but I can’t see the refernce of a $10Bn cost to govt.

Entropy

So the real cost to the taxpayers was basiccally $300m plus whatever the slaughter scheme cost.

For the record I’m against any form of government ‘assistance’ for industry. It always ends in tears and the taxpayer getting screwed.

Steve of Ferny Hills

6 Feb 13 at 12:22 am
Plus carrying the debt for ten years. And I wont mention the endless variety f RAS payments, EC or adjustment payments providing income support either. At least they tend to be decoupled from production.

But yes, the ag export industries lie wool, beef and wheat, with the exception of sugar, have always been less subsidised than the domestically focussed ones. And the subsidies aren’t necessarily overt. There are plenty of shonky quarantine arrangements for example.

entropy

6 Feb 13 at 12:31 am
entropy – for a long time all you could get were those watery, light brown skinned ones. The range now is OK – the royal blues make the best mash once you put them through a ricer and kipflers are good for a change. I think intra-state trade in potatoes is caught too.

Nah – we have Sunday trading now for most things (still a few exclusions, I’m not sure what).

Has anyone read “Breaking the Sheep’s Back” on the wool industry?

H B Bear

6 Feb 13 at 12:38 am
We now have Sunday trading in the west. It has ruined the very fabric of our community.

Infidel tiger

6 Feb 13 at 12:40 am
At least it hasn’t faded the curtains.

H B Bear

6 Feb 13 at 12:44 am
Lizzie

Thanks for the reminder. I read Niall Ferguson’s “Civilisation” while travelling around europe two years ago and I found it very entertaining and quite relevant to the travel. I watched the TV series last year and found it both poorly structured and frankly hard to follow. This was a little surprising since the TV show came first.

Hope you enjoy it.

dismissive

6 Feb 13 at 12:59 am
Paul Kelly forgets the last two years:

The Labor Party is damaged and weak. One bad Newspoll sends tremors through its ranks. A spate of bad public polls will guarantee a spiral of instability.

Yeah, imagine if that ever happened – a whole spate of bad public polls.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 1:09 am
Canberra bans children’s birthday cakes:

CHILDREN will be banned from blowing candles out on communal birthday cakes and all toys, doorknobs, floors and cushion covers will have to be cleaned daily under strict proposed hygiene rules for childcare unveiled yesterday.

The National Health and Medical Research Council guidelines were slammed by doctors, who said they went too far and “bubble-wrapped” children.

The new guidelines state children who want to blow out a candle on their birthday should bring their own cupcake to avoid blowing germs over a shared cake.

“Children love to blow out their candles while their friends are singing Happy Birthday,” the NHMRC document says. “To prevent the spread of germs when the child blows out the candles, parents should either provide a separate cupcake, with a candle if they wish, for the birthday child and (either) enough cupcakes for all the other children . . . (or) a large cake that can be cut and shared.”

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 1:17 am
cupcake

Oh, and in this country they’re patty cakes, you idiots.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 1:19 am
WSJ Op-ed: America’s Baby Bust
The nation’s falling fertility rate is the root cause of many of our problems. And it’s only getting worse.

Forget the debt ceiling. Forget the fiscal cliff, the sequestration cliff and the entitlement cliff. Those are all just symptoms. What America really faces is a demographic cliff: The root cause of most of our problems is our declining fertility rate…….

For two generations we’ve been lectured about the dangers of overpopulation. But the conventional wisdom on this issue is wrong, twice. First, global population growth is slowing to a halt and will begin to shrink within 60 years. Second, as the work of economists Esther Boserups and Julian Simon demonstrated, growing populations lead to increased innovation and conservation. Think about it: Since 1970, commodity prices have continued to fall and America’s environment has become much cleaner and more sustainable—even though our population has increased by more than 50%. Human ingenuity, it turns out, is the most precious resource.

Low-fertility societies don’t innovate because their incentives for consumption tilt overwhelmingly toward health care. They don’t invest aggressively because, with the average age skewing higher, capital shifts to preserving and extending life and then begins drawing down. They cannot sustain social-security programs because they don’t have enough workers to pay for the retirees. They cannot project power because they lack the money to pay for defense and the military-age manpower to serve in their armed forces.

There has been a great deal of political talk in recent years about whether America, once regarded as the shining city on a hill, is in decline. But decline isn’t about whether Democrats or Republicans hold power; it isn’t about political ideology at all. At its most basic, it’s about the sustainability of human capital. Whether Barack Obama or Mitt Romney took the oath of office last month, we would still be declining in the most important sense—demographically. It is what drives everything else.

RTWT

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:24 am
USA TODAY-
Study: Global Warming Can Be Slowed By Working Less
A new analysis suggests that a more ‘European’ schedule would reduce the effects of climate change

Want to reduce the effects of global warming? Stop working so hard. Working fewer hours might help slow global warming, according to a new study released Monday by the Center for Economic Policy and Research.

A worldwide switch to a “more European” work schedule, which includes working fewer hours and more vacation time, could prevent as much as half of the expected global temperature rise by 2100, according to the analysis, which used a 2012 study that found shorter work hours could be associated with lower carbon emissions.

Shorter Version:

Leftist Think Tank: Work Less, Save Planet
We can short work week/long holiday our way out of global warming problems.

That’s why we need even more leftist think tanks.

We could come up with brilliant ideas like this.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:30 am
leftist think tanks

Surely an oxymoron.

Lloyd

6 Feb 13 at 1:35 am
NYT EDITORIAL for the nation’s fiscal repair:

More Jobs, Higher Pay

Part of an effective agenda would surely include a higher minimum wage, which is overdue. It is one of the most effective ways to lift wages because raising the floor also raises wages higher up the income scale. Union membership can also push up wages through collective bargaining. In 2012, even as the share of American workers in a union fell to its lowest level in nearly a century, the median weekly earnings of full-time unionized workers was $943 versus $742 for comparable nonunion workers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Yet the administration’s support for unions has been more rhetorical than real. Mr. Obama failed to keep a campaign promise from 2008 to advance legislation to make it easier for workers to unionize and made scant use of the bully pulpit as unions have come under prominent attack in Wisconsin, Indiana and Michigan.

A recent federal court ruling invalidating his recess appointees to the National Labor Relations Board, which enforces federal labor law, will be a further setback to workers’ ability to bargain for higher wages. The misguided decision, if upheld, would deny the board a quorum to rule on legal questions. In seeking to overturn the ruling, all the way to the Supreme Court, if necessary, the administration should take aim at the court’s unjustified incursion on presidential power and its antiunion bias.

Short Version-

NYT: The three keys to economic recovery: More Union Power, More Labor Regulations on Employers, Higher Minimum Wage

I shit you not.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:37 am
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Judge to rule on insanity verdict in Midtown shooting trial

During his testimony Wednesday, Thandiwe suggested that his reason for even purchasing the gun he used in the shootings was to enforce beliefs he’d developed about white people during his later years as an anthropology major at the University of West Georgia.

“I was trying to prove a point that Europeans had colonized the world, and as a result of that, we see a lot of evil today,” he said. “In terms of slavery, it was something that needed to be answered for. I was trying to spread the message of making white people mend.”

He said the night before the shooting, he attended a so-called “Peace Party” intended to address his concerns about helping the black community find equal footing, but two white people were there.

“I was upset,” Thandiwe said. “I was still upset Friday. I took the gun to work because I was still upset from Thursday night.”

Short Version-

University Taught Me to Hate White People

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:42 am
UK Independent- The power of TV: watching 20 hours a week halves sperm count, according to new study

Men who watched more than 20 hours of television a week had a sperm count 44 per cent lower than those who watched the least, it found.

Don’t worry.

More than 20 hours of Da Cat doubles sperm counts

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:46 am
In case you didn’t think Ron Paul was an amoral low life, how about this?

Ron Paul ‏@RonPaul

Chris Kyle’s death seems to confirm that “he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.” Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn’t make sense

Iraq vet charged in fatal shooting of ex-SEAL

Travis Cox, the director of a nonprofit Kyle helped found, told The Associated Press on Sunday that Kyle and Littlefield had taken Routh to the range. Littlefield was Kyle’s neighbor and “workout buddy,” Cox said.

“What I know is Chris and a gentleman – great guy, I knew him well, Chad Littlefield – took a veteran out shooting who was struggling with PTSD to try to assist him, try to help him, try to, you know, give him a helping hand and he turned the gun on both of them, killing them,” Cox said.

A knock on the door at Routh’s last known address went unanswered Sunday. A for-sale sign was in front of the small, wood-framed home.

Kyle’s nonprofit, FITCO Cares, provides at-home fitness equipment for emotionally and physically wounded veterans.

“Chris was literally the type of guy if you were a veteran and needed help he’d help you,” Cox said.

Cox described Littlefield as a gentle, kind-hearted man who often called or emailed him with ideas for events or fundraisers to help veterans. He said he was married and had children.

“It was just two great guys with Chad and Chris trying to help out a veteran in need and making time out of their day to help him. And to give him a hand. And unfortunately this thing happened,” Cox said.

Bryant seemed to confirm that scenario. The sheriff said Routh’s mother “may have reached out to Mr. Kyle to try to help her son.”

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:55 am
It’d be easier and quicker to ask ‘hands up those Labor ministers who haven’t stayed at Obeid’s lodge’

Yes, very good!

Lizzie – glad you enjoyed your “mystery meat bags floating in chicken broth”. My favorite!

CL, I have never heard cupcakes called patty cakes in Oz. Where did you grow up?

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 1:59 am
The nation’s falling fertility rate is the root cause of many of our problems. And it’s only getting worse.

Just one of the many reasons the South will rise again:

Perhaps more importantly, these states are nurturing families, in contrast to the Great Lakes states, the Northeast and California. Texas, for example, has increased its under 10 population by over 17% over the past decade; all the former confederate states, outside of Katrina-ravaged Mississippi and Louisiana, gained between 5% and 10%.
On the flip side, under 10 populations declined in Illinois, Michigan, New York and California.

Houston, Austin, Dallas, Charlotte, Atlanta and Raleigh also saw their child populations rise by at least twice the 10% rate of the rest country over the past decade while New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston and Chicago areas experienced declines.

Blue-state “progressives” are extincting themselves.

sdog

6 Feb 13 at 2:09 am
I thought patty cakes was a yank expression. Ess dawg, is that right?

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 2:27 am
I thought patty cakes was a yank expression. Ess dawg, is that right?

If it is, it’s ancient. Hostess Cupcakes have been called Hostess Cupcakes since forever (around WWI-era?).

sdog

6 Feb 13 at 2:38 am
Twostix:

Best advice I can give is to go along to the clubs of the things you want to do/try. Speak to the members and get their advice. Chances are, they’re the ones who are going to take you through the firearm safety courses you will have to sit in order to get your licence (depending on State), and they can advise you on the ins and outs of how to go about applying for your licence etc, and all the other paperwork you have to go through. Joining the club is a small price to pay for their assistance.

If you want to do long-range target shooting and also want to get results worth a damn, you will pretty much HAVE to reload (been there; done that). Depending on the sort of target work you do, you may or may not be able to go hunting (if you so choose) with a rifle in the same calibre and can often use one set of reloading dies & components (but not projectiles; those are not cross-compatible!) for both. Beyond that, talk to experienced club members who can advise you in depth as you go along. I think you’ll be in for a good time, but be aware, your wallet is going to take one fuck of a beating.

perturbed

6 Feb 13 at 2:45 am
Twostix, re shooting sports.

Firearms regulations vary from state to to state, usually in minor areas, but you need to have a good awareness of what is legal etc. and there is a lot of paperwork BS involved.

As a first step, I suggest you visit your local gun shop (if there are any left in your area) and express an interest in taking up sporting shooting. Like old time barber shops, the gunshop men all love to shoot the breeze and will be a mine of information.

Discuss the types of shooting you want to do and arrange an introduction to a suitable club, (target, skeet, handgun etc) for a familiarisation tour. Most clubs will welcome potential new members with open arms, and your membership can give you the required “need” to purchase your firearm. There are other methods, but club membership and sponsorship is the easiest.

Don’t rock up unannounced at a shooting range. Heavily frowned upon. Ring the Secretary in advance and request an invitation for a look and maybe a try out if they are willing.

Commercial ranges offer training courses, range time and rental guns at a cost. Expect about a $50 outlay for an initial lesson, .22 ammo, targets and range officers tutelage. More with exotic guns and ammo.

Safe storage in your home is mandatory, again depending on the type of firearms you own, and the police will inspect your safe(s) at their convenience, usually only once unless you change address.

There are a lot of hoops to jump through, but none are impossible to negotiate and shooting is great fun. Good luck.

Pedro the Ignorant

6 Feb 13 at 3:06 am
Maybe I’m thinking of an all beef patty.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 3:18 am
Pedro, thanks for the correction on just rocking up. In retrospect I’m pretty sure I called someone prior to turning up on both occasions, if only so I knew where to turn up to!!

perturbed

6 Feb 13 at 3:23 am
Perhaps you are Abu Chowd.

Wanna start an online blue over who has the best burgers, or something equally as trivial?

Warning: Being served a burger without beetroot in it is justifiable grounds for wrecking premises (or stall or whatever) of the vendor.

Steve at the Pub

6 Feb 13 at 3:24 am
In addition to “all burgers have beetroot” another rule of the bush was: If one was served Captain Morgan rum instead of real rum, it was justifiable to wreck the premsises.

Enforcement of this rule led me to the discovery that wrecking a barroom is one helluva lot more tiring that you’d first think.

… and that’s before factoring in the resistance that will be shown by the proprietor.

Steve at the Pub

6 Feb 13 at 3:28 am
Of course, with Beetroot.

Just as the ultimate country town night cap after a teenage night on the turps is an Australiana pizza, with bacon and an egg cracked in the middle.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 3:57 am
No idea what you’re talking about. I did many things in my youth, but my sins certainly did not include visiting a town that sold pizza, or had late night food, i.e. food after 7pm.

I first saw pizza & alcohol in the same day when I was 27yo, in Woodruffe, South Carolina.

Steve at the Pub

6 Feb 13 at 4:00 am
Beautiful in its ugliness, the karma bus rumbles into town:

Rudd’s face is everywhere and any protracted setback will fan Rudd’s leadership claims. Labor is permanently tainted by its ties to Craig Thomson and Peter Slipper. Asylum-seeker boats keep arriving. The NSW Labor brand, witness Eddie Obeid, cannot be purged this year. Business is alienated from Labor. Confidence in the economy is patchy and Newspoll has a shocking figure that on economic management the Coalition leads Labor 50-28 per cent. This is death zone territory.

Gillard’s National Press Club speech was dominated by the economy but the impression of Labor ineptitude has infected its standing on the economy. It waited too long on the surplus. If it was going to ditch the surplus it had to move far earlier. Now Labor faces a new strategic mess – a pre-election budget based on Labor values that means declared tough decisions that will punish the investment class to finance Gillard’s unfunded re-election icons on disability and education.

This is a high-risk operation. Labor’s approach to superannuation is year-by-year improvisation. If major superannuation reform to cut tax concessions was essential this term it should have come in the first year, not the last year. Labor creates more uncertainty and invites retaliation by putting superannuation benefits on the table for cutting, thereby setting the scene for three months of pre-budget fear and confusion. How on earth does this help Labor’s economic standing? If Labor thinks it is smart politics, that merely betrays its cultural decline.

“Punishing the investment class” is code for the progressive strangulation of the non-mining economy for the past five years to pay for “Labor values”. From a government with the morality of car thieves. The sooner they fuck off, the sooner post-war reconstruction can begin.

Tom

6 Feb 13 at 4:45 am
I first ate pizza with an egg at 2am on a Sunday morning in Sale, opposite the pinnie parlour.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 4:50 am
My cosmopolitan worldly knowledge tells me that Sale = is Victoria.
That is about the sum of my knowledge of the lower half of this mighty nation.
(Note for the geographically challenged, the halfway point up the east coast is the city of Mackay, anything below Mackay is “southern”)

Steve at the Pub

6 Feb 13 at 4:58 am
Fairfax goes into bat for the extreme left gangster wing of the union movement:

NEARLY 1000 police officers were used on just one morning at the height of last year’s Grocon dispute – about one in every 13 sworn police in Victoria.

The massive response is underlined by police data – released under freedom of information – that reveals 3067 police shifts were worked in just two weeks at Grocon’s Myer Emporium site in central Melbourne in August and September.

Victoria Police refuses to disclose how much the dispute cost it – and taxpayers – as a legal case against the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union is under way. But it defended its response as necessary to ensure safety.

CFMEU state secretary John Setka denied the union was to blame for the costs and said the number of police used was an ”absolute disgrace”.

He said it was not the fault of police, it was a result of Premier Ted Baillieu backing Grocon chief executive Daniel Grollo. ”It’s just one little rich boy helping another little rich boy.”

Tom

6 Feb 13 at 4:59 am
If I ever ate pizza at 2am there would have been two pre-requisites.

I’d have have to have driven at least 300km to the nearest pizza place, and I’d then have to have saved a pizza for 6 hours after the pizza hut closed.

For some reason, at 2am (4 hours after pubs closed) we’d have been close on legless, but if we’d have wanted something, it’d have been more rum)

Steve at the Pub

6 Feb 13 at 5:02 am
Barnaby in fine form

Then we have senior ministers just resigning—they are dying like flies. Of course we get this every time: ‘Don’t worry. It’s all under control.’ The Attorney-General of the Commonwealth of Australia goes ‘pop’ and disappears. The 3IC—the third in charge—of the running of our nation goes ‘pop’ and disappears. They are just gone, and they have all got these gracious reasons of why they have got to go. I can never work out why the Attorney-General became the Attorney-General, because apparently a year ago she knew she was not going to be the Attorney-General. She must have just wanted a temporary posting in that role, because that is what the Commonwealth needs: a temporary person to run the legal system and jurisprudence of this nation! That’s so logical! As soon as the Prime Minister knew about it, she should have said, ‘Yes, you’re going to be so important for 12 months you must stay in that role.’ No, that is a completely believable situation! I am completely on board with that. Of course now we have got Mr Thomson—149 charges. I think he is over there. He is still in the building. It just goes on. All it needs is the Monty Python theme song.

Dan

6 Feb 13 at 7:25 am
Michael Whats-his-name on ABC24 still seems to have worms or maybe, as someone else on the Cat suggested, a mild form of St Vitus’ Dance. Why does he jiggle around in his seat so much?

Septimus

6 Feb 13 at 7:52 am
Thanks Dan, Vintage Barnaby, I love his pastoral parlance – hilarity ensues.

Question to a farmer in Queensland: How do you think Wayne Swan is handling the economy

Answer: Like a dog on lino.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 7:57 am
Whats-his-name? Septimus, I admire your forebearance, I just can’t watch or listen to the ABC in any form. I watch Q & C on the Cat the other night what wonderful entertainment that was between than ACTUALLY watching it.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 7:59 am
Lots of good laughs on the Cat this morning. Barnaby in particular:

The Attorney-General of the Commonwealth of Australia goes ‘pop’ and disappears

Just like the Wicked Witch of the West.

Ding Dong.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 8:32 am
” city of Mackay”

?Was that another Barnaby Joke?
City?
Seriously?
Nice enough, but “city”?

WhaleHunt Fun

6 Feb 13 at 8:42 am
How many drive by shootings in Mackay last night?
Less than three?
Not a city
Nice place to live but unless you sleep in kevlar andpollies steal in the HUNDREDS of millions it aint not city

WhaleHunt Fun

6 Feb 13 at 8:45 am
Any government institution will try to continue well beyond the time when its purpose no longer exists

A good post on protectionism, Enropy, and so true. Also relevant to all the recent organisations planted, seeded, sprouted and nurtured to do with da climate.

James K, thankx for the reading extracts and the helpful summaries to assist the early morning brain.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 8:46 am
He builds up to a nice crescendo when he asks for his carbon tax money back.

Dan

6 Feb 13 at 8:47 am
oops. Entropy, with a t. Wrist slap, Lizzie. Have to get names right. My C5th stuff is all about names. One in particular.

Entropy is a thoughtful screen name. Inevitable disintegration. Happens to us all.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 8:52 am
(Note for the geographically challenged…)

I was just going to let it go, but as long as we’re being condescending and smug… it’s Woodruff, not Woodruffe. You’re welcome.

sdog

6 Feb 13 at 8:57 am
CHILDREN will be banned from blowing candles out on communal birthday cakes and all toys, doorknobs, floors and cushion covers will have to be cleaned daily under strict proposed hygiene rules for childcare unveiled yesterday.

Won’t this up the already accelerating rate of children with allergies?

Can’t we just vaccinate against the really bad bugs?

.

6 Feb 13 at 9:00 am
Twostix: So many questions!

Does anybody go shooting here? As a sport in a club I mean?

No, but I know many who do (50′sB pistolero’s, skeet shooters, long range centrebore – there are scores of different disciplines. Alla re both challenging and a hell of a lot of fun.

What’s it like joining a club? What does someone who’s interested in it as a sport do to join up? Just rock up or do you need license first?

Rock up, look around and ask heaps of questions. Start with the Range Safety officers, normally retired, normally VERY experienced shooters.

To own a firearm and start shooting yes, a license is needed. Starting the sport without a license – see your state and the club’s regs and rules.

Is it worth while?

Yup. Hell of a lot of fun, meet some really good people. Socially, it’s excellent.

Do you need a license to do that?

Depends on state and club regs and rules.

———————————–

Anyone who owns a gun how often do the cops inspect your safe?

Depends on the state. In the ACT, they never did in a decade. here in QLD, had one inspection to date.

Is reloading ammo worth it these days?

Mostly yes. The rule of thumb is that the bigger the calibre and the more you shoot the more worth it it is. Realoading is fun, you can adjust your loads to suit your needs, and it cuts costs by up to 90% (I reload .303 for 50% of factory ammo price, for a weird obsolete calibre like 577/450 black powder where you also cast the bullet you’d save at least 90%)

Do you have to choose the type of shooting you want to do then stick to that type? Like skeet shooting and firing a rifle on the range that’d need two guns how hard is that to organise?

Tha’s a doddle. many people follow more than one discipline.

The start-up-costs at the start of any new sport can get expensive.

And shooting is non-PC. Lefties wet themselves, swoon from attacks of the vapours – or just mince away crying when they find out. (More fun!)

SO they try and make it hard and expensive. That’s actually WHY I got into the sport years ago, asa ‘get f**ked’ to those idiots.

License – takes a few weeks, lots of paperwork, a safety course, cost maybe $100-$200 all up depending on where you live.

Gun safe – $300-$400 for a 3 to 8 gun safe (hint, buy as big as you can afford, the perfect number of firearms is N+1, N being the number yuu own now)

Reloading gear – research the gun shops specials and buy a ‘package’. Cleaver Firearms is currently running a good Lee complete kit (press, powder loader etc) for $179 IIRC. That’s CHEAP. lee gear is good.

Is moving interstate with guns a major headache?

Nope. neither is transferring license from one state to another (it was not for me, anyway).

Hope this helps.

Contact your local SSAA and bug them with questions. They love to help new people move into the sport..

Mk50 of Brisbane

6 Feb 13 at 9:04 am
This is why I think this organic farming stuff is a joke. Chime in if you’re a farmer or ag scientist.

They certify you if you are a bio dynamic farmer.

I think permaculture, NSF, holistic management have merit, but biodynamic farming is a load of pseudoscientific crap.

Rudolf Steiner? Planting horns of cows filled with manure on certain phases of the moon cycle?

It’s commercialised moonbattery.

This is going to offend some people to but homepathic veterinary drugs are going to work as well as sacrificing doves to Saturn.

Ionising radiation has nothing to do with the actual growing of the crop, and there is no proof it does any harm.

.

6 Feb 13 at 9:09 am
Anyone who owns a gun how often do the cops inspect your safe?

Is reloading ammo worth it these days?

Do you have to choose the type of shooting you want to do then stick to that type? Like skeet shooting and firing a rifle on the range that’d need two guns how hard is that to organise?

Is moving interstate with guns a major headache?

Twostix,

I have just been through most of that, to answer;

I have never (yet) been inspected for meeting regs on my safe, my father has a number of times because he has pistols as well.

Reloading is still worth it provided you shoot often enough to cover the costs of the reloading equipment. Any sort of serious target shooting or hunting would require you to reload your own or be $$ loaded.

You don’t have to choose a discipline and stick to it, in fact I am a member of the SSAA and never shot at one of their ranges, but that satisfies the criteria of target shooting on my licence. The authorities don’t reconcile the types of guns with the club you belong to.

I have just moved interstate and changed everything from one state to the other, to do the shooters licence was not difficult but the Firearms registries and Weapons licensing is very slow to process applications and I am still waiting after a month for my new licence to arrive.

If you live in Victoria you can apply for a shooters licence and use hunting as the primary reason, obtain a game licence and permission to hunt on crown land from the DSE, or letter of permission from land owner and you are right to go as long as other licensing criteria are met. Or you can join the SSAA and apply as a target shooter. Or do both and be covered for all types.

In QLD you need to be a club member, the SSAA will suffice, or have a letter of permission to hunt on their property to qualify for hunting status on the licence. There are no game licences and hunting on crown land is not an option.

Not sure of other states.

Old Fridgie

6 Feb 13 at 9:10 am
Whale, you obviously have no idea about the bush. A thousand people is a big town. Municipalities recognise cities of 10,000 people. Mackay is No.22 on Australia’s biggest cities list. The fact that the bush isn’t a high-rise shithole full of Green zombies is one of the attractions.

Tom

6 Feb 13 at 9:14 am
Dot

permaculture works just fine, it’s an established practise and a bloody good one.

it’s simply not scalable.

It’s really a great concept but should be called ‘low-labour subsistence farming’, as that’s what it really is.

In fact, that’s what the traditional Australian quarter-acre (1000m2) suburban block was made the standard block for. You can run chooks and grow enough veggies on a quarter acre with the small houses they had in those days to provide most of the food a nuclear family needs.

Mk50 of Brisbane

6 Feb 13 at 9:28 am
Enforcement of this rule led me to the discovery that wrecking a barroom is one helluva lot more tiring that you’d first think.

I spent a few months working outside a “town” that consisted of a pub next to a combination supermarket/petrol station/post office. And perhaps one house.

The boys got a bit carried away one night when the owner was out of town and a backpacker was manning the bar. Every moveable object in the pub disappeared. Except the pool table, which was too heavy to move.

The owner returned and put the word out at 1000hrs that the pub would not be opening as usual at noon for those workers that like a few lunch time middies.

Everything was back in its place by 1159hrs. Many sheepish farmers made the drive in to town to return a pool ball or a pool cue or a painting or bar stool.

Don’t ask whey everyone decided to make off with all those items – it was just the sort of madness that grips you on a quite Tuesday night at around midnight.

boy on a bike

6 Feb 13 at 9:31 am
Lefties silent as Obama declares desire to kill US civilians with drones:

Obama 2007: Can’t Just Air Raid Villages and Kill Innocent Civilians… Obama 2013: Air Raids Are Legal, Ethical, Wise.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 9:47 am
Lefty nurse: 6,000,000 Jews committed suicide.

Nurse slams conditions at Nauru ‘concentration camp’.

A nurse with more than 40 years experience has likened the Nauru detention centre to a concentration camp, saying she witnessed multiple suicide attempts during her time on the island.

Marianne Evers, who is also trained as a counsellor, signed up for a six-week stint at Nauru last November but quit after three weeks.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 9:52 am
I’m enjoying reading the Age TV synopses. Only two 9/11 truther documentaries so far but this one on ancient prophecies sounds good:

About this episode
Are you ready for 2012? This film claims modern man has lost knowledge of a power our ancestors were in awe of about this date. Knowledge of it has been destroyed and rediscovered. Many have sought to wield it, falling foul of their own selfishness. Like mad magicians seeking to rule the world, men of renown have fleetingly seen the incredible nature of this power… but all too often have missed the point. In our modern era, we too have missed the point. We spend our lives naming things and separating them, while they remain whole all the same. We vainly believe that we can disconnect ourselves. The Ancient Code needs no material gain, hatred or warfare. You are the key to the code…

Dan

6 Feb 13 at 9:53 am
Scalability is what I find really intriguing about organic agriculture.

If it cannot be scaled, how else is it ever going to be cheaper?

You see results of isolated studies where it is noted for example that organic wheat yields are 25% lower.

That well may be the case.

I’m interested in the financial sustainability of an organic enterprise over a number of years. Organic wheat might have lower yields, but it can produce per given nitrogen and water input, higher protein wheat. No till farming increases soil productivity and it can increase pastures for grazing in a mixed farm. No till increases soil nitrogen, but it can take five years to have a full effect.

I really just want a full picture from agricultural science and then crunch the numbers as an economist.

.

6 Feb 13 at 9:54 am
Dan

Lulz

http://www.2012.com.au/Site.A.html

Welcome to 2012 UNLIMITED. We present information and tools to help you through the major changes taking place on Planet Earth now. This site and our catalogue cover: the Mayan calendar and prophecies, time acceleration, the frequency rise on Earth to a 12 hour day, the Quickening, Philadelphia and Montauk experiments in time, free energy, DNA upgrades, UFOs, extraterrestrials, the shift to 4th and 5th dimension, the Ascension, the synchronisation of earth with the universe.

1. Planet Earth is a training planet.
(“The toughest school in the Universe” – Virgil Armstrong)

2. We are fast approaching graduation time.

3. After we graduate we may go on and help others in emerging civilizations.

4. Hitler was the last Lord of Darkness. We are having no more. George W. Bush and friends are the final tail-end of this negative energy. He has shown us what we don’t want!

5. The Mayan Calendar time-science clearly shows that in any one time cycle of 1144 years, there are 13 Lords of Light (or heavens) and 9 Lords of Darkness (or hells). So creation has been designed towards love and light. See Hitler and Time.

6. The Mayan fifth world finished in 1987. The sixth world starts in 2012. So we are currently “between worlds”. This time is called the “Apocalypse” or revealing. This means the real truth will be revealed. It is also the time for us to work through “our stuff” individually and collectively.

7. The Mayans also say that by 2012-
- we will have gone beyond technology as we know it.
- we will have gone beyond time and money.
- we will have entered the fifth dimension after passing through the fourth dimension
- Planet Earth and the Solar System will come into galactic synchronization with the rest of the Universe.
- Our DNA will be “upgraded” (reprogrammed) from the centre of our galaxy. (Hunab Ku)

8. In 2012 the plane of our Solar System will line up exactly with the plane of our Galaxy, the Milky Way. This cycle has taken 26,000 years to complete. Virgil Armstrong also says that two other galaxies will line up with ours at the same time. A cosmic event!

9. Remember, in any given moment we are making small and large decisions. Each decision is based on LOVE or FEAR. Choose love, follow your intuition, not intellect and follow your passion or “burning inner desire.” Go with the flow.

10. Thought forms are very important and affect our everyday life. We create our reality with thought forms. If we think negative thoughts of others this is what we attract. If we think positive thoughts we will attract positive people and events. So be aware of your thoughts and eliminate the unnecessary negative or judgemental ones.

11. Be aware that most of the media is controlled by just a few. Use discernment! Look for the hidden agendas. Why is this information being presented to you? What is “their” real agenda? Is it a case of problemreactionsolution? Do “they” create a problem so that “we” react and ask for a fix, then “they” offer their solution? The “solution is what “they” really wanted in the first place.

12. Remember almost nothing happens by accident. Almost all “events” are planned by some agency or other. Despite this, it is a very exciting time to be alive!

The truth shall set you free!

Erm yes I’m sure it will.

.

6 Feb 13 at 9:59 am
The Ancient Code needs no material gain, hatred or warfare.

FMD. What planet are they on?

This is going to offend some people to but homepathic veterinary drugs are going to work as well as sacrificing doves to Saturn.

Doesn’t offend me Dot. I fought hard to keep a homeopathic vet away from my little cat in her last few years. Modern veterinary science kept her fit and going well way beyond her allotted time.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 10:06 am
They were patty cakes when I was a kid in the 60s.

kae

6 Feb 13 at 10:11 am
FMD. What planet are they on?

Nibiru, of course. They all are anthromorphic cat people now too.

After they’ve taken enough peyote for breakfast.

.

6 Feb 13 at 10:11 am
Oh, I see now Dot. It’s just come up while I was thinking my last comment.

We are on training planet.

Umm – that’s good to know. Now wait for the doctor and take your pills.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 10:13 am
An Australian with connections to the Hezbollah militant group is one of the key suspects in a bombing that killed five Israelis and a local bus driver at an airport at a Black Sea resort last year, the Bulgarian Government announced overnight.

I see a bright future for this bomber holding an Australian passport. No doubt the terrorist will be hailed as a hero by the Australian left, will be awarded the Sydney Peace prize, a lucrative book deal and subsequent Writer’s Festival award.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:22 am
Speaking to my Sainted Mother there, btw. Dot.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 10:24 am
All is forgiven. Best of friends again. The government will soon find it’s way after having lost its way for the second time in five very very long years.

“Almost a year ago, Simon Crean led the public flaying of Kevin Rudd, attacking him for running a “relentless, stealth campaign”, against Julia Gillard. But relations seem to have improved. He wants Rudd to play a key role in the upcoming election campaign. The pair were seen in deep conversation yesterday evening during a House of Representatives division on a social security bill.”

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:35 am
“If I’m prepared to do this to my waist, imagine what I’m prepared to do to Labor waste,” said the man formerly known as “Sloppy Joe” Hockey yesterday.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:38 am
More friends for Rudd:

Two of the Prime Minister’s key supporters, Victorian Right faction powerbrokers Stephen Conroy and Bill Shorten, both said yesterday Mr Rudd had a role to play in the election campaign, following comments on Monday from Regional Affairs Minister Simon Crean and Transport Minister Anthony Albanese that Mr Rudd was an asset to Labor’s campaign.

Keep an eye out for those KevMachine’13 tee-shirts.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:44 am
Forget the debt ceiling. Forget the fiscal cliff, the sequestration cliff and the entitlement cliff. Those are all just symptoms. What America really faces is a demographic cliff: The root cause of most of our problems is our declining fertility rate…….

Low-fertility societies don’t innovate because their incentives for consumption tilt overwhelmingly toward health care. They don’t invest aggressively because, with the average age skewing higher, capital shifts to preserving and extending life and then begins drawing down. They cannot sustain social-security programs because they don’t have enough workers to pay for the retirees. They cannot project power because they lack the money to pay for defense and the military-age manpower to serve in their armed forces.

Pope Paul VI was 100 percent right.

And once again we see the undeniable nexus between moral relativism and the rise and rise (and rise) of statism. Which is why no libertarian can ever be a ‘social liberal.’

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 10:44 am
Diesel fuel rebate?

Buck, you’re wrong on this one as Steve has pointed out.

You’ve fallen for greenpeace talking points.

The diesel fuel tax rebate is not a subsidy any more than any legitimate business expense is a subsidy. If you follow that logic, any attempt by australians to recover tax they have paid over and above the minimum as stipulated by law is a subsidy. Essentially what you’re arguing is that anyone with an ABN is being subsidized by the government when they claim back gst.

brc

6 Feb 13 at 10:46 am
“Keep an eye out for those KevMachine’13 tee-shirts.”

Don’t think so Gab, just a mcternan idea to make the party look cohesive and offer false hope to Rudd supporters, keep them quiet.

candy

6 Feb 13 at 10:47 am
Won’t this up the already accelerating rate of children with allergies?

Can’t we just vaccinate against the really bad bugs?

The clean freaks who have managed find a way to accelerate the # of children with nut alergies really have a lot to answer for.

You can not bring any food to my kids childcare. You can not bring any sunscreen either.

The poor tots who have the allergies are not the enemy, but damn they are taking the fun out of being a kid.

Token

6 Feb 13 at 10:50 am
Oh my, what an odious man Stuart Littlemore is:

Stuart Littlemore pushes reporter outside ICAC

Token

6 Feb 13 at 10:57 am
Heh. Just a week or so after I related a specialist mate’s observation re the likelihood that footballers in this country may not be in a position to chuck stones at Lance Armstrong… ‘SUPPLEMENTS!’

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 10:57 am
“What we will do is continue our proud track record of creating jobs and opportunities for working Australians,”

sniped gillard yesterday in Parliament.

Lovely rhetoric but no substance to it.

Gillard government appears set to impose stricter environmental assessments on coal seam gas projects in NSW, accusing the state of refusing adequate approval processes.

Was it really only a year ago gillard promised to slash green tape?

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:58 am
And once again we see the undeniable nexus between moral relativism and the rise and rise (and rise) of statism. Which is why no libertarian can ever be a ‘social liberal.’

Libertarianism is about taking responsibility for your own actions.

Anyway the Pope was wrong, at least for the war on drugs, but that war was fought – on the premise that being a heavy drug user was someone always else’s fault. Hang on, maybe his Holiness was right after all.

It sold a lot of cheesy action movies but it is bullshit and has cost society trillions and killed thousands of innocent bystanders.

.

6 Feb 13 at 10:59 am
Oh my, what an odious man Stuart Littlemore is:

Stuart Littlemore pushes reporter outside ICAC

I think he’s just dropped the act. Good on him.

.

6 Feb 13 at 11:00 am
KevMachine13

sub-text: Robots-R-Us

I think they’ll go for KevTeam13.

Certainly can’t be DreamTeam. Everyone knows they’re dreaming.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 11:02 am
The diesel fuel tax rebate is not a subsidy any more than any legitimate business expense is a subsidy. If you follow that logic, any attempt by australians to recover tax they have paid over and above the minimum as stipulated by law is a subsidy. Essentially what you’re arguing is that anyone with an ABN is being subsidized by the government when they claim back gst.

I don’t think that analogy is valid but the point is taken.

It illustrates how all taxes distort economic behaviour: it doesn’t make sense to tax farmers for road use in the same way but the existence of the rebate is at least, arithmetically, an implicit subsidy.

In effect, it acts as a poll tax on non rural workers and businesses.

Arguably the inefficiency and unfairness of rural rates “makes up” for this, but – it does so by being unfair, usurious and sometimes being the burden which can force people off the land.

.

6 Feb 13 at 11:05 am
Dot, I’m unaware of anything Paul VI wrote on the drug war.

But he was right about the West’s suicide by contaception.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 11:05 am
Gillard government appears set to impose stricter environmental assessments on coal seam gas projects in NSW, accusing the state of refusing adequate approval processes.

How can they do this? Doesn’t the Crown in NSW own the minerals?

I know how s 109 of the Constitution works BTW.

Any Federal environmental law applying to any harvesting or mineral resource on State jurisdictional land seems suspect to me, espeically if it is specific to one state.

Where is the head of power for the Commonwealth Parliament?

How does NSW CSG have anything to do with a treaty? Or how does NSW CSG have anything to do with corporations? Isn’t a NSW specific law a violation at least of the principles of rule of law?

Could the new law be a restraint of interstate trade?

.

6 Feb 13 at 11:11 am
ooww. Just dropped a cold grape down my bra.

You are always spilling t’ings down your front, says HIA. Can’t take you anywhere.

Easy for him to speak. He doesn’t have to cope with these things that get in the way when you are multi-tasking while reading the Cat.

He’s away and I miss him and his behavioural advice.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 11:11 am
But he was right about the West’s suicide by contaception.

C.L.,

I also blame expensive housing and the career changing aspects of credentialism. It’s not feasible to have kids until you’re 30+ most of the time.

.

6 Feb 13 at 11:12 am
Thanks, jc, perturbed, pedro, MK50 and fridgie.

It’s disappointing that NSW and VIc allow hunting on crown land but QLD doesn’t. C’mon QLD wtf? Stricter than commie Victoria?

Anyway I’ll contact the SSAA and see what they say about my area.

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 11:18 am
It’s not feasible to have kids until you’re 30+ most of the time.

The credentialism in the child care industry is making having kids 30+ hard as well.

Token

6 Feb 13 at 11:23 am
Grey and his inane comments have turned me to prayer.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:34 am
An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he turned to her and said, “Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.”
The little girl, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total stranger, “What would you want to talk about?”
” Oh, I don’t know,” said the atheist. “How about why there is no GOD, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?” as he smiled smugly.
“OK,” she said. “Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff – grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?”
The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl’s intelligence, thinks about it and says, “Hmmm, I have no idea.”
To which the little girl replies, “Do you really feel qualified to discuss why there is no GOD, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death, when you don’t know shit?” And then she went back to reading her book.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:42 am
On Tuesday Mr Windsor said that process had failed and he was determined to force the government to act to include the new trigger in the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act before the election on September 14.

”It’s D-day. NSW has shown they are not serious. They are not trying to fix the real problem, which is the potential for cumulative impact on water from numerous mines.

”I am not bluffing on this. I am not prepared to let it slide. There can be no more delays,” he said.

Shorter Winsdor: “I’m about to lose my job, do something Gillard heeeeelp meee!!!!!”

This sort of transparent bluff and babble about CSG is not going to save you Windsor. You callously betrayed your conservative rural neighbours and installed a leftwing Labor / Green government and then rubbed their faces in your betrayal by pushing the Greens Pièce de résistance: A tax on all industrial output. New England despises you, you will be fired shortly then will have to pack up your shit and move to a luvvie greenie region to escape your eternal shame.

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 11:43 am
“If we think negative thoughts of others this is what we attract. If we think positive thoughts we will attract positive people and events. So be aware of your thoughts and eliminate the unnecessary negative or judgemental ones.”

Well that’s not the worst advice in the world, but the rest of it seems pagan nonsense.

candy

6 Feb 13 at 11:43 am
Further to Richard 111 and my interest in his ancestress Katherine Swynford, from her fan club:

“The Mitochondrial DNA used to identify the body of Richard III with two currently living descendants of his sister was inherited from his great grandmother Katherine Swynford .

Mitochondrial DNA is inherited only from an individual’s mother. The maternal line between Katherine Swynford and Richard III and his sister passes through Joan Beaufort and Cecily Neville. Both Richard III and his sister inherited the same mitochondrial DNA from their mother Cecily Neville.

The details of the mechanism of genetic inheritance of mitochondrial DNA are described in two articles on Wikipedia.”

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 11:46 am
Pacific House BBQ in Victoria St (Richmond?)is a good go for Chinese, Lizzie. Very good, very fast, great takeaways and cash only. And you can get a hit of ice on the footpath.

Pickles

6 Feb 13 at 11:47 am
To which the little girl replies, “Do you really feel qualified to discuss why there is no GOD, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death, when you don’t know shit?” And then she went back to reading her book.

Nice story Gab except an atheist is unlikely to proselytize to a child. Rather that is exactly what you find at Sunday School. I resent the fact that children are expected to make decisions about such matters.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 11:48 am
It was only a joke, John H.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:49 am
How can they do this? Doesn’t the Crown in NSW own the minerals?

I know how s 109 of the Constitution works BTW.

Any Federal environmental law applying to any harvesting or mineral resource on State jurisdictional land seems suspect to me, espeically if it is specific to one state.

Where is the head of power for the Commonwealth Parliament?

How does NSW CSG have anything to do with a treaty? Or how does NSW CSG have anything to do with corporations? Isn’t a NSW specific law a violation at least of the principles of rule of law?

Could the new law be a restraint of interstate trade?

It seems he wants them to try to do it through water. I presume NSW ceded some power to the commonwealth re water and environmental law and he wants canberra to abuse that.

What a scumbag Windsor is though.

“The popular democratically elected NSW government isn’t doing what I, a hated about to be fired betrayer of my community wants them to, Canberra you must invade NSW!”.

Windsor and Oakeshotte must be held responsible for the mess they have created. The best way to do that is to convince the left that Labors annihilation is their fault.

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 11:51 am
Wherefore, one may wonder, would the pornerastic member for Dobell want the bail condition removed which prevents his contacting employees of certain businesses which provide escort services?

Deadman

6 Feb 13 at 11:52 am
May the Good Lord grant you your prayers today, Gab.

Lighten up, John, because we do know you are not one of the one’s Gab is praying about.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 11:53 am
oops. Apostrophe man strikes at Lizzie, wins one.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 11:55 am
And you can get a hit of ice on the footpath.

Sounds like that Melbourne winter again, Pickles.

Will investigate this blood and thunder Chinese. Will pass on the ice.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 12:00 pm
Lighten up, John, because we do know you are not one of the one’s Gab is praying about.

Gab should be praying that children aren’t subject to that sort of crap. It is no different than teaching AGW in schools. Actually it is, it is worse. Children are not prepared to handle that sort of information.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 12:00 pm
Nice story Gab except an atheist is unlikely to proselytize to a child.

Nu Atheists are the worst, most unapologetically obnoxious fire and brimstone, Dawkins book thumping evangelists since the pentecostal revival in the ’90′s.

I resent the fact that children are expected to make decisions about such matters.

Lol quite the christian attitude.

“Those children must be saved from their wayward parents!”

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 12:01 pm
Good Lord.

Five additional charges of fraud against Craig Thomson.

He was prohibited from knowingly contacting, either directly or indirectly, any person that was an owner, employee or contractor between 2003 and 2007 of several businesses including Tiffany Girls, Young Blondes and A Touch of Class.

I’m pretty sure they’re not hospitals.

His wife accompanied him today. I feel very sorry for her.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 12:03 pm
… an atheist is unlikely to proselytize to a child.

LOL.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 12:04 pm
It seems he wants them to try to do it through water. I presume NSW ceded some power to the commonwealth re water and environmental law and he wants canberra to abuse that.

Use the Interstate Commission powers…in a single state?

LOL

Arseholes.

.

6 Feb 13 at 12:06 pm
Mr Thomson’s lawyer applied to have a bail condition, that ordered Mr Thomson not to contact certain witnesses, be removed. […]
But Magistrate Donna Bakos refused the application because the condition placed no undue onus on Mr Thomson.
Instead, she varied the condition ordering he not “knowingly” contact witnesses. […]
Ms Bakos extended Mr Thomson’s bail that include strict conditions banning him from contacting anyone that he is alleged to have engaged for sexual services.

If part of your claim of innocence is that you never engaged the services of prostitutes it seems a tad contradictory to claim that it would be difficult to avoid them; if Thommo never paid for a prostitute, there must be a zero chance of encountering one.

Deadman

6 Feb 13 at 12:08 pm
You are always spilling t’ings down your front, says HIA

I did a fantastic job of spilling my red wine at dinner on Friday night (another speciality I have) when our friends flew in from Sydney, straight from life in the corporate fashion parade: she in silk flowing trousers and pale silk top (‘casual’ Friday apparently), he in his designer suit trousers and expensive business shirt. In sheer boredom at the football talk, I made a dramatic point with my hand and dramatically ruined the clothing of both of them.

Mortification.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 12:09 pm
I love frozen green pitless grapes on a hot day.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 12:12 pm
Nice story Gab except an atheist is unlikely to proselytize to a child

You are quite obviously off your meds again John.

Radical secularist atheists do nothing but.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 12:12 pm
His wife accompanied him today. I feel very sorry for her.

The only reason she is sticking around is that she either knows he bought the whores for others or she is desperate to get hold of his parliamentary super.

Infidel Tiger

6 Feb 13 at 12:12 pm
Illegal entrants to Australia claiming asylum are living in airconditioned buildings and given lots of goodies, flood victims are living in tent cities.

Yeah, that’s proper.

kae

6 Feb 13 at 12:13 pm
If it was a test match the international cricket would have already had my attention for over 90 minutes.

Roll on 2 o’clock

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 12:14 pm
The only reason she is sticking around is that she either knows he bought the whores for others or she is desperate to get hold of his parliamentary super.

Or…… possibly Shagger is such a great root she can’t bear to leave him.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 12:16 pm
kae 6 Feb 13 at 12:13 pm

Flood victims pay for their tents with their taxes.
Illegals do not pay taxes so need our help! So sayeth ALP.

stackja

6 Feb 13 at 12:17 pm
Radical secularist atheists do nothing but.

Religion does it far more pervasively and are compelled by the scriptures to do it. Radical secularist atheists, whatever that means, are a very small minority of atheists. Don’t hear you complaining about children being taught to believe in some religion. Why is that?

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 12:21 pm
Note to self: Do Not post jokes about atheists. They’re very sensitive.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 12:24 pm
Religion does it far more pervasively

Maybe Islam but otherwise that assertion is drivel.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 12:31 pm
James
Taranto, WSJ: Barack Obama, Straight Shooter?

Just seven weeks after a massacre at an American elementary school, the White House released a photo of the president firing a gun. Strangely, no one seems to think this is in atrocious taste. We imagine the reaction would be quite different if it were, say, George W. Bush.

But a lot of people, including this columnist, doubt that the photo depicts what it purports to show. The White House distributed the pic in response to widespread skepticism of President Obama’s assertion, in an interview with a liberal editor and a former campaign coordinator, that “up at Camp David, we do skeet shooting all the time.” The man who infamously said that rural Pennsylvanians and Midwesterners “cling to guns” had never before publicly indicated any interest in shooting sports.

The photo, purportedly shot last Aug. 4 (which happens to be the president’s birthday), shows Obama holding a shotgun. The barrel is smoking, indicating that the gun has just been fired. What’s odd about it is that the president is aiming straight ahead, as if he were firing a rifle at a stationary target.

But in skeet shooting, the target, a disk known as a clay pigeon, is moving. It is launched from one of two “houses” and travels in a parabolic trajectory across the field. In order to hit it, one has to move the gun so as to follow the path of the clay. It’s not impossible that one would fire at shoulder level, as Obama is doing in the photo, but it’s unlikely. We therefore surmise that the picture is the product of a photo shoot, not a skeet shoot.

Expressions of dubiety about the photo have prompted some weirdly intense reactions from Obama partisans. Our old pal John Avlon lashes out at “Republican conspiracy nuts” who are “partakers of the paranoid style in American politics” and have succumbed to “the unhinged, hate-fueled impulse” toward “disrespect and near-dehumanization of this president.”

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 12:34 pm
Does it really make sense banning Craig Thomson from visiting hookers?

Judge’s logic: Craig is accused of spending other people’s money on hookers. We will ensure Craig doesn’t continue to do this by forbidding him from seeing hookers.

But Craig only spent a small amount of money on hookers!

In fact, I believe, a large portion of the fraud involved spending on political campaigning for himself. So shouldn’t Craig be banned from participating in politic, lest Craig decide again to spend money in that arena which he shouldn’t?

(or does the judge think hookers – all hookers all over Australia – are potential witnesses?)

Harold

6 Feb 13 at 12:38 pm
Mr Thomson’s lawyer told the court his client had been keen to get the matter underway as quickly as possible.
“My clients had this hanging on his head for years,” he said.
“It’s a burden on my client. He obviously has his responsibilities.
“He’s anxious to get these matters resolved.”

Now he is in a hurry? Why did he stall for years?

A media request for access to Mr Thomson’s charge sheets was unopposed.

Secret men’s business!

stackja

6 Feb 13 at 12:41 pm
Note to self: Do Not post jokes about atheists. They’re very sensitive.

Quite so. They seem much more insecure and militantly defensive of their faith than the average Christian or Jew. Odd, that.

sdog

6 Feb 13 at 12:44 pm
Radical secularist atheists, whatever that means, are a very small minority of atheists.

So, unfortunately, are the few Christians who proselytise effectively.

I’m not even sure what you have to complain about the concept of Sunday School. To be honest, a good biblical grounding is one of the best defences against leftism going.

Certainly beats the culture produced by public schooling.

Driftforge

6 Feb 13 at 12:45 pm
Radical secularist atheists, whatever that means, are a very small minority of atheists.

Rally?

They seem so……loud.

In fact I never hear from other quiet type you claim is the overwhelming majority.

Hmmm…

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 12:48 pm
Really?

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 12:49 pm
I read a lot of this at Cat… Pickering’s gathered it all together here.

kae

6 Feb 13 at 12:50 pm
“The only reason she is sticking around is … ”

I know she is a Labor PR person which may make her fair game, but I don’t really think she is fair game on this issue.

It must be so humiliating for her, and I feel sorry for her situation as a wife. Perhaps she still loves him and she has a child to think about too.

Christian charity?

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 12:54 pm
A priest, a Pentecostal preacher and a Rabbi all served as chaplains to the students of the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa.

They would get together two or three times a week for coffee and to talk shop. One day, someone made the comment that preaching to people isn’t really all that hard. A real challenge would be to preach to a bear.

One thing led to another and they decided to do an experiment. They would all go up to the Smokies, find a bear, preach to it, and attempt to convert it.

Seven days later, they’re all together to discuss the experience.

Father Flannery, who has his arm in a sling, is on crutches, and has various bandages on his body and limbs, went first. “Well,” he said, “I went into the woods to find me a bear. And when I found him I began to read to him from the Catechism. Well, that bear wanted nothing to do with me and began to slap me around. So, I quickly grabbed my holy water, sprinkled him and, Holy Mary Mother of God, he became as gentle a lamb. The bishop is coming out next week to give him first communion and confirmation.”

Reverend Billy Bob spoke next. He was in a wheelchair, with an arm and both legs in casts, and an IV drip. In his best fire and brimstone oratory he claimed, “WELL brothers, you KNOW that WE don’t sprinkle! I went out and I FOUND me a bear. And then I began to read to my bear from God’s HOLY WORD! But that bear wanted nothing to do with me. So I took HOLD of him and we began to wrassle. We wrassled down one hill, UP another and DOWN another until we came to a creek. So right quick-like, I DUNKED him and BAPTIZED his hairy soul. And just like you said, he became as gentle as a lamb. We spent the rest of the day praising Jesus.”

They both looked down at the rabbi, who was lying in a hospital bed. He was in a body cast and traction with IV’s and monitors running in and out of him. He was in bad shape. The rabbi looks up and says, “Looking back on it, circumcision may not have been the best way to start.”

sdog

6 Feb 13 at 12:56 pm
Pretty sure the restriction on Craig revisiting brothels is about not interfering with witnesses.

Getting a girl to ID the johns was always going to be the key to the case.

brc

6 Feb 13 at 12:59 pm
Dot

Not having kids until after 30 can be a recipe for failure for women. Fertility plummets after age 35.

Too many women don’t know this, they see stars and celebrities having babies at 40+ and think that’s the way for them.

It doesn’t happen that way unless you are very, very lucky and/or have a lot of expensive medical help.

kae

6 Feb 13 at 1:06 pm
Wot a laugh, sdog. Hoot hoot.

I finished my freezy grapes a while back, Gab. They are yum, aren’t they? Don’t peel me one, I tell HIA. Put a few in the freezer. (Can’t leave them there too long though).

Now it’s lunchtime and one of my great successes remains in the fridge as leftovers. Tuscan meat balls, made from scratch with a tasty sauce under my own hand, plus some pine nuts and a few other things I added to the recipe to see what would happen because it seemed a bit boring.

That sometimes works. Sometimes not so much.

Why am I so experimental? Something in ya nature, says HIA.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 1:07 pm
Getting a girl to ID the johns was always going to be the key to the case.

Otherwise the jury will believe Shagger when he sez that even way back then as an unknown union official there was a “vast right wing conspiracy” which copied his SIM card and made calls from the his hotel rooms to Escort services when he stayed in different cities?

Those evil CIA-like conspirators directed by Abbottabbbottabbott copied his signature on credit slips with his union credit card and driver’s licence at various whore houses before slipping them back in wallet before he even knew they were missing?

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:08 pm
It doesn’t happen that way unless you are very, very lucky and/or have a lot of expensive medical help.

My sis had her first at 40 and second at 42 in third world Oireland after having multiply failed and then given up on assisted reproduction technology.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:11 pm
So will they ID the John’s Jonothan? That’s how they tried to get Michael Jackson, the incriminating birth mark or some such.

Harold

6 Feb 13 at 1:14 pm
Drive-by posting as I’m at work, but the fricken Nanny Staters strike again.

We have the lunch truck come every day, and they stock all sorts of good things. Plenty of junk, but that’s good too. All tastes are catered for.

Said chuck truck also sells cigarettes. In a fashion.

New government regs mean that cancer sticks cannot be sold to someone unless they are registered with the company that runs the trucks.

So, one of the lads wanted to buy a packet of cigarettes, and got told no, because he’s not on the list. He’s now got his name and smoking preference on the list and can buy from the truck as of tomorrow.

I find this grossly offensive.

I guess when they’ve got enough names they’ll know who to target later on down the track if the government wants to do a data grab like they’re doing over in the UK.

nilk

6 Feb 13 at 1:15 pm
Carney: Drone Strikes ‘Legal,’ ‘Ethical,’ ‘Wise’

White House press secretary said Tuesday the administration’s use of drones is “legal,” “ethical,” and “wise,” at a press briefing following remarks by President Obama.

“These strikes are legal, they are ethical and they are wise,” Carney said.

NBC News reported late Monday on an unclassified Department of Justice white paper on the use of drones against American citizens, like al Qaeda operatives Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:16 pm
And once again we see the undeniable nexus between moral relativism and the rise and rise (and rise) of statism. Which is why no libertarian can ever be a ‘social liberal.’

Well said CL!!

‘Social liberalism’ is the supreme form of solipsism. If a person likes putting his willy about, that’s all well and good for him, but he should not force the world to change so as to make his lifestyle ‘normal.’ On insecure idiots want ‘acceptance’ for their behaviour.

Rococo Liberal

6 Feb 13 at 1:17 pm
Definitely patty cakes in Qld – they were quite a bit smaller than the modern cupcake too.

Our drunken middle of the night food thing when I was a teenager was staggering to the bakery and paying extortionate prices for hot loaves of bread and sausage rolls that we would fall on like ravenous dogs. Good times.

Tracey

6 Feb 13 at 1:19 pm
James, I call myself an ‘unbeliever’ because that is what I am. I believe that because I have no real idea of what to believe, having followed all of the ‘reasoning’, and because belief is just not in me, I should not try to persuade other people about what they should believe. I also avoid those trying to persuade me.

I live happily in the world seeing the sun, as now, sparkling on blue water like a thousand thoughts, and like Hemmingway, who chose his biblical title, I know that the sun also rises.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 1:21 pm
I love frozen green pitless grapes on a hot day.

They’re even better if they have to be fetched from a bra.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 1:22 pm
My sis had her first at 40 and second at 42 in third world Oireland after having multiply failed and then given up on assisted reproduction technology.

Two little miracles, James K.

That is so wonderful for her and Uncle James.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 1:25 pm
I love frozen green pitless grapes on a hot day.

Gab really nice is frozen black muscat grapes, bit grape, then chocolate and swig through a little grappa, repeat one, two, three, oops floor. Very nicsh though.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 1:25 pm
Perhaps the not seeing hookers thing is so that he can’t influence witnesses?

kae

6 Feb 13 at 1:25 pm
Your sis was very, very lucky.

kae

6 Feb 13 at 1:25 pm
Just to play evens lest the charge of “grapist” be called.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 1:27 pm
You QLDers have strange habits. I just use a plain old boring bowl to serve the grapes.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 1:27 pm
Careful CL or you will have to be sent to the Naughty Man’s Corner, and no Tuscan meatballs for you.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 1:29 pm
In fact I never hear from other quiet type you claim is the overwhelming majority.

They are quiet James so why do expect to hear from them? When atheists start door knocking I’ll be the first to tell them to piss off. When atheists start creating logos like fish and crosses I’ll laugh at them till my dying day.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 1:29 pm
frozen black muscat grapes

If the grapes are not seedless than no thanks, Tinta. And as for grappa – only if I want to drink rocket fuel.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 1:29 pm
LOL.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 1:29 pm
Speaking of matters cake-el and foodal – and resuming an old Catallaxy conversation – I have now converted to supermarket lamingtons.

With cream centres.

Very tastey. Bakery lammies are nowadays too dried up.

So. There you go.

I should add that lamingtons are an entirely manly thing to eat.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 1:32 pm
Gab, Liz et al

I’d serve grapes in my bra, but I’m not a contortionist so it’d be too awkward for me to be able to eat them from it… (and besides, that’d be silly.)

Oh, and they might get, ahhh, lost.

kae

6 Feb 13 at 1:33 pm
I have now converted to supermarket lamingtons.

With cream centres.

Heh. Chalk up one more convert to my side.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 1:35 pm
I’d serve grapes in my bra

Like I said, you QLDers have strange ways. Each to their own but.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 1:36 pm
only if I want to drink rocket fuel.

Gab my papa’s grappa was a blend of rocket fuel and marine varnish — I think that’s what gave it a bit of an edge.

He used to send it down to me by post in two gallon glass flagons, that was soooo long ago. I missed my Italian home so much I used to go into delis to smell the aroma of coffee, salami, stoko-fisso – it really helped the homesickness. Beinga poor little moonbeam living in a garret and couldn’t afford to buy the stuff – the grappa as a heart starter in some percolated coffee first thing in the morning kept me going. Ah those were the days.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 1:38 pm
How old were you when you came to Australia, Tintarella?

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 1:40 pm
but I’m not a contortionist

kae I think your gravitar pose says otherwise.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 1:41 pm
Having had grappa before, Tinta I can attest that it is great after your typical Italian six course feast (aka as lunch) for speeding up the digestive process. Much like the way phosphoric acid eats through metal.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 1:42 pm
When atheists start creating logos like fish and crosses I’ll laugh at them till my dying day.

logo

Keith

6 Feb 13 at 1:44 pm
Mediaite is a leftist sympathising news aggregator but it had this brilliant headline:

Breaking: Fox News Now Dick-Less (Morris, That Is)

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 1:49 pm
“Rational wiki” is satire, surely?

.

6 Feb 13 at 1:50 pm
Lizzie – re wife of Thomson – I understand your pity, but has she no self-respect?

I would be sitting at home, baseball bat at the ready.

pete m

6 Feb 13 at 1:52 pm
C.L.

How old were you when you came to Australia, Tintarella?

I was born here but lived a very isolated life with my family way up in the hills in country NSW our family was one of the alien enemy who would’ve been interned had they not fled into the hills and subsisted with the assistance of wonderful Aussie neighbours and friends.

My parents lived a hard life and we live in little house with no electricity, no hot and cold running water, a Koolgardie fridge (sheer loozury) — it was a life very similar to some of the descriptions in Geoffrey Blainey’s Black Kettle and Full Moon. Great memories though.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 1:53 pm
ooops “lived”

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 1:53 pm
Keith – very good. Hammer and Sickle is is one such aethiestic logo.

But don’t suggest the Swastika. That is stolen from ancient Indo-European religion religion iconography.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 1:54 pm
religion religion – bah. religious.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 1:55 pm
I hope you write down your story, Tintarella.

Folks with your memories should visit schools and tell the children.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 1:56 pm
Much like the way phosphoric acid eats through metal.

Gab perhaps your experience of grappa can be put down to a bad batch. It does help digestion there is no doubt but I like it best in the morning in my caffe coretto – only one but ahhhh great start to the day.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 1:57 pm
If I made “wine” in a aluminum vat once from sultanas and baker’s yeast, and it turned out to have ABV over 35%, does it count as Grappa?

It had a golden hue, like a mid ale.

It was very, very dry.

.

6 Feb 13 at 1:59 pm
I hope you write down your story, Tintarella.

Thanks C.L. I’ve never thought about it. I’ve had the most amazing life, when I think of the mean circumstances from which my parents came, how they had the mountainous courage to come half-way across the globe to start a new life, and how hard they worked and without any English, the mind just boggles.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 2:02 pm
When atheists start creating logos like fish and crosses I’ll laugh at them till my dying day.

Keith was joking above, but Atheists certainly do have a logos. And prophets to worship, and full-on tent revivals.

One of y’all’s favorite snarks when people describe your beliefs as a religion is that “atheism is a religion like not collecting baseball cards is a hobby”. But show me where the people who don’t collect baseball cards have logos, and clubs, and global conventions, and fellow non-collectors they wait in line for hours to see and get an autograph from (squeeee!).

Look, you’re welcome to your beliefs, and you’re welcome to bring your kids up in your faith. But you’re not welcome to insist that everyone else adopt your belief system, that no-one is entitled to any belief system other than yours.

Really – think about it. You’re doing the same “MINE is the only One True Faith and no-one should be allowed any other!” that other more traditional religious zealots do.

sdog

6 Feb 13 at 2:03 pm
Gab perhaps your experience of grappa can be put down to a bad batch.

How dare you insult my father-in-law’s Grappa, recipe handed down to him from generations of Calabrese ancestors! Wars have been started for less!

I think it comes down to grappa is just too strong for my liking, Tinta.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 2:04 pm
Bakery lammies are nowadays too dried up.

Lusxcious Affairs in Hawthorn and Toorak do the most magical chocolate lamingtons.

mct

6 Feb 13 at 2:04 pm
James, I call myself an ‘unbeliever’ because that is what I am. I believe that because I have no real idea of what to believe, having followed all of the ‘reasoning’, and because belief is just not in me, I should not try to persuade other people about what they should believe. I also avoid those trying to persuade me.

You’re an agnostic Lizzie.

As long as you are open-minded and have investigated, then stand tall as such.

Personally I don’t believe that there is a God person who is without looking in saying: ‘that Lizzie is no good ‘cos she doesn’t believe in Me’.

For those of us who suffered existential angst however Faith/inner-knowing is absolute relief.

In many respects what the Buddhists call ‘old souls’ don’t need Faith.

You may well be one of those. Don’t laugh.

Religion – apart from the mystical function has great societal value in the passing on of values.

Those values help create great independent thinking young minds capable of resisting leftist brainwashing and they don’t don’t need to be people of Faith.

That’s why the Left loathe vibrant Christianity in pedagogy in particular.

I can’t honestly accept the Nicene Creed so I simply can’t call myself a Christian fwiw.

The cricket is about to start!!!!!!

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 2:05 pm
Sorry dot, sounds amazing, I think the test is to take a swig breath on the paint of the front door if it doesn’t peel it’s not grappa.

My papa made grappa after he’d made the white wine, he would put the skins in a big sealed vat and then boil them up and connected the vat to a tube that ran into a 44-gallon drum of water (like a great big leibig condensor) and then the vapour would travel down the submerged pipe and liquify and eco la out would come the clear as crystal grappa liquid. It was a still highly illegal but jolly good.

He and one of the local larrikins nearly blew themselves up one day when the whole thing went up like Krakatoa. Funny times

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 2:11 pm
So many women on the Cat with tales to tell, CL, and who are well able to put words together. Tintarella, do as CL says. HIA, who is familiar with the Naughty Man’s Corner, must have shown him how to get out of it – be nice to da girls and offer heaps of encouragement.

Guilt rises. Elizabeth (yes, mum, I hear you, I am coming) is now heading off to the fifth century AD for a few hours to at least gather some notes together and look over this stuff I have in my head, stuff clamouring for its say.

Thanks for all your tough talks, Gab. Say no more, and we’ll see what happens.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 2:13 pm
Oh, Tinta, that photo is nearly 30 years old…

I was young and naive then, too. (But only in my 20s.)

kae

6 Feb 13 at 2:14 pm
The lying strumpet is on her feet in Question Time, whining like an EH diff, thankfully at the moment the cricket started across the road at the South Bumfuck Oval in Zombie Parrotville to deliver us from her screechy obfuscations. Do your worst, luv. We can’t hear you.

Tom

6 Feb 13 at 2:15 pm
kae which means that you would have only grown more supple/subtle in the interim. Very wise to be young and naive in your 20s.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 2:19 pm
Yes, I agree, Tinta you really ought to write about your life and what your parents experienced. I wish my dear Mum had written about hers, as she too led an amazing life, from being on the Wanted list by the communists and escaping Hungary to landing in a country where the word ‘bus’ sounded like a word for f**k in Hungarian. Taught herself English by reading the papers, watching TV and generally mixing with Poms and Aussies. Worked hard, sometimes with three jobs on the go to provide for us, ran her own business at one stage, never relied on government handouts. Incredible woman.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 2:22 pm
Homepathic ER…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

Steve of Glasshouse

6 Feb 13 at 2:23 pm
If we’re talking supermarket lamingtons, what’s the opinion on lamington fingers vs full size lamingtons?

I’m torn. I think the finger size makes the right sized bite to eat with a coffee, but misses out on the fluffy lamington centre by dint of having the wrong chocolate/coconut to sponge ratio.

brc

6 Feb 13 at 2:24 pm
I see one atheist responding negatively to a standard “feel good” joke and many Christians piling on.

The accusation of sensitivity was misapplied, I think.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 2:28 pm
Lamingtons are overrated.

kae

6 Feb 13 at 2:28 pm
In many respects what the Buddhists call ‘old souls’ don’t need Faith.

You may well be one of those. Don’t laugh.

Old souls, originally a Hindu I idea IIRC. Old souls seems to be increasing in number which sorta makes sense over time. In developed nations at least people are increasingly turning away from organised religion but the majority are then opting in for some New Age trash or trying to construct a metaphysics from QM. Atheists are not old souls, agnostics are much closer to being old souls than atheists. Atheists commit the same logical error as religionists: they presume to know what it all means. Yet the major religions of Buddhism, Islam and Christianity are are so diverse in what it all means that one wonders what they mean by what it all means. Each religion branches in manifold ways, especially christianity. If they have the truth they should first sort it out amongst themselves then come knocking on my door.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 2:30 pm
Not sure if it has been posted yet, but the Coalition has decided to oppose the Roxon-anti-free-speech bill outright.

http://freedomwatch.ipa.org.au/coalition-will-oppose-anti-discrimination-laws-outright/

’bout freaking time.

Seems the good polling has stiffened up their backbone a bit. Pity it wasn’t several years ago.

brc

6 Feb 13 at 2:33 pm
When a joke cannot be posted without someone launching in a tirade about religion and Christians, then yeah, I call that sensitive, Abu. Among other things.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 2:33 pm
Swan in the House blaming the Tea Party for absence of surplus.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 2:35 pm
Michael Smith has put up Craig Thomson’s charge sheet for download (all 46 pages of it) and arrest warrant. Haven’t found any references to icecreams yet, although we do learn that it’s cheaper to rent a porn video at a Mercure Hotel than at a Sofitel or Stamford.

Cold-Hands

6 Feb 13 at 2:35 pm
Not sure if it has been posted yet, but the Coalition has decided to oppose the Roxon-anti-free-speech bill outright.

I’d oppose anything that despicable woman proposed.

Infidel Tiger

6 Feb 13 at 2:37 pm
In many respects what the Buddhists call ‘old souls’ don’t need Faith.

Honestly, who cares what those navel-gazing lay-abouts think about anything?

The best thing the Chinese communists ever did was to clear out Tibet.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 2:38 pm
For those of us who suffered existential angst however Faith/inner-knowing is absolute relief.

I don’t think I have ever felt my unbelief as angst in my adult life. It is more like some form of quiet acceptance.

I was seventeen when I first came across Christopher Brennan’s poem ‘The Wanderer’. I think by then I had somehow got through the worst of that sense of homelessness Brennan expresses and had learned to make my own place and to accept the making of it. The last lines of Brennan’s ending always confirmed me in a quiet philosophical contentment.

I am the wanderer of many years
who cannot tell if ever he was king
or if ever kingdoms were: I know I am
the wanderer of the ways of all the worlds,
to whom the sunshine and the rain are one
and one to stay or hasten, because he knows
no ending of the way, no home, no goal,
and phantom night and the grey day alike
withhold the heart where all my dreams and days
might faint in soft fire and delicious death:
and saying this to myself as a simple thing
I feel a peace fall in the heart of the winds
and a clear dusk settle, somewhere, far in me.

I know he was an alcholic and a Roman Catholic, a tortured soul who wandered around Sydney University in a donnish drift, and I sometimes felt there that I wanted to speak to him, to say you are being heard, it is like that when your heart is still wandering, and you are right, in the end it is calmed by a simple thing.

Another poet of that era, Shawn Nielson, spoke very directly to my heart.

the young girl stood beside me. I

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 2:41 pm
Yeah Gab sounds like your Mum’s life was even more worthy of a story. It’s such a shame the questions I now have can’t be answered.

One thing is clear though: the go-getters have those stories and the come-takers don’t.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 2:43 pm
Almost sound… a step, a light, a call

It came last night to a pear tree around here.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 2:44 pm
I’m not even sure what you have to complain about the concept of Sunday School.

For exactly the same reason teenagers should not receive education in school about AGW. Simple. I’m so agnostic I regard evolutionary theory as very incomplete and that in spite of Susan Lindquist(hsp90) and epigenetics and Ted Steele.

If want unsubstantiated stories to attack the unsubstantiated stories of leftism you are as bad as leftists because you are willing to sacrifice truth to fight against untruth.

A tirade Gab, what about the endless debates on Gay marriage and arguments in favour of God? Now those are tirades but a two sentence remark is not a tirade.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 2:44 pm
“If they have the truth they should first sort it out amongst themselves then come knocking on my door.”

John, it’s just a leap of faith, but one has to be in place and time ready to make it as I think you’re saying?

Even the most knowledgeable theologian who knows the Bible back to front may not necessarily understand.

candy

6 Feb 13 at 2:47 pm
When a joke cannot be posted without someone launching in a tirade about religion and Christians, then yeah, I call that sensitive, Abu. Among other things.

One person tars the rest? But the irony came from the reaction of the many.

I thought the whole sequence amusing.

I also enjoyed CL’s unchristian observation on the state-sanctioned murder of others.

Religious tangents always deliver at the Cat!

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 2:48 pm
He smiled, smugly.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 2:48 pm
The go-getters all have stories worthy of recording, Tinta.

One of the greatest moments in my life was sitting down with my now dearly departed father-in-law and asking him about his life in Italy and what he experienced when he first arrived in Australia. (Day 1: disembarked ship. Day 2: Got a job) He told me stories even his kids didn’t know, with mother-in-law in the background chortling and making comments sotto voce whenever the truth was stretched just a little to far. Different world, different generation.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 2:50 pm
Even the most knowledgeable theologian who knows the Bible back to front may not necessarily understand..

Yes, after reading Berkhof, Theilekie(spelling), Calvin, Berkouwer(wonderful lecture series in Calvinism) and many others it does seem that they don’t understand. But you see Berkhof had the title “Systemic Theology” but it aint systematic, it is all over the shop. If after all this time a book cannot be understood then it is not meant to be understood. Thus as Paul laments in Roms11:35 – how unsearchable his ways, his paths beyond tracing out etc etc. Yet apparently some think God is not so unsearchable and inscrutable, except when it comes to the difficult questions and contradictions.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 2:52 pm
I also enjoyed CL’s unchristian observation on the state-sanctioned murder of others.

I said exactly the opposite.

The Tibetan Buddhist lords were running a slave and death camp for centuries.

All you need to know about the world and its difficulties vis-a-vis Christianity is this: the largest charity on earth is the Catholic Church.

Second, the worst and most irrational and most bloodthirsty leaders in human history were the atheist tyrants of the twentieth century.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 2:53 pm
what about the endless debates on Gay marriage and arguments in favour of God? Now those are tirades but a two sentence remark is not a tirade

No, those, as you first correctly described, were debates and arguments, not tirades.

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 2:54 pm
Ha ha ha. Yes, CL, very good!

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 2:54 pm
But the irony came from the reaction of the many.

No the hilarity ensued just after I posted a little joke, Abu. It sat there for a bit but then an atheist just couldn’t help himself but had to use that joke as a platform to rail against religion. That was hilarious.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 2:55 pm
You mean, very true.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 2:55 pm
We now know CL is a fan of atheist tyrant regime China, who “cleared out” Tibet.

A Christian can see the good in everyone.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 2:56 pm
Gillard running the “Tax as a percentage of GDP” argument during QT.

A change from the AbbottAbbottAbbott. Now it is our fault.

H B Bear

6 Feb 13 at 2:58 pm
t sat there for a bit but then an atheist just couldn’t help himself but had to use that joke as a platform to rail against religion. That was hilarious.

Yes, I will rail against AGW activism, I will rail against neoDarwinism, I will rail against the Central Dogma of DNA(now thoroughly discredited). Why is it here people can rail against those religions but not organised religion hmmm?

And for the last time I’m agnostic! Agnostic about so many things!

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 2:58 pm
It was indeed amusing, Gab. Thank you!

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 2:58 pm
Why is it here people can rail against those religions but not organised religion hmmm?

Yes, good point, John. We have never had people rail against religion here before today.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 3:00 pm
Abu
I’ve always been interested to know the names of the great atheist charities. I can’t seem to find them but then I can only oogle on google so there might be another source of such hard to find information.

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 3:01 pm
Atheists really hate to be reminded that when they got a whole century to experiment with a world made in their image they gave us World War II, the Holocaust, the Cultural Revolution, Year Zero, the Gulag Archipelago and 100,000,000 dead.

They’re the Gillards of the ages.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 3:03 pm
I don’t think I have ever felt my unbelief as angst in my adult life

Existential angst has nothing to do with agnosticism Lizzie.

On a superficial reading Judaism and Christianity says: ‘put up with this vale of tears’, live honourably and your reward will be in some after-life.

But mystical Faith provides the reward here and now which in reality is all there is.

Promise of relief in another life just didn’t cut it for me. I needed mystical faith.

Many people (‘old souls’) have no need for mystical faith because they already love ‘here and now’.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 3:03 pm
Did anyone here catch the Craig-Rosenberg debate at Purdue that was televised live on the net? You can watch it here. I was pleasantly surprised by Rosenberg’s performance.

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 3:06 pm
An alcoholic and a Roman Catholic

Now Lizzie, dere’s a turnup for the books. Son of Irish immigrants, his dad a brewer!
Nice poem. Then there’s this from “Autumn”:

I see my dreams’ dead colours, one by one,
forth-conjur’d from their smouldering palaces,
fade slowly with the sigh of the passing year.
They wander not nor wring their hands nor weep,
discrown’d belated dreams! but in the drear
and lingering world we sit among the trees
and bow our heads as they, with frozen mouth,
looking, in ashen reverie, towards the clear
sad splendour of the winter of the far south.

blogstrop

6 Feb 13 at 3:08 pm
Abu
I’ve always been interested to know the names of the great atheist charities. I can’t seem to find them but then I can only oogle on google so there might be another source of such hard to find information.

Why ask me? I agree with CL that the church of Rome is the worlds’ greatest charity. Possibly followed by the Muslim Brotherhood.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 3:08 pm
But mystical Faith provides the reward here and now which in reality is all there is.

This is almost the exact opposite of what mysticism is.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 3:09 pm
I’ve always been interested to know the names of the great atheist charities.

The long suffering taxpayer.

Infidel Tiger

6 Feb 13 at 3:10 pm
I’m so glad I posted a joke. Tomorrow I’m posting a joke about Mohammad.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 3:11 pm
Possibly followed by the Muslim Brotherhood.

No, it would be followed by other Christian charities.

The fact is atheists do nothing for anyone.

Well, they did kill about 150,000,000 people in the name of their cult in the twentieth century.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 3:12 pm
Atheists really hate to be reminded that when they got a whole century to experiment with a world made in their image they gave us World War II, the Holocaust, the Cultural Revolution, Year Zero, the Gulag Archipelago and 100,000,000 dead.

But those arseholes “cleared out Tibet” so at least your christian eye can spy one Christian Good, eh CL.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 3:13 pm
Atheists (Gillard, Roxon et alia) don’t like jokes, Gab.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 3:13 pm
But those arseholes “cleared out Tibet”…

Right. And atheist icon Adolph Hitler buit some incredible highways.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 3:16 pm
Well, they did kill about 150,000,000 people in the name of their cult in the twentieth century.

These cults of personality can be very dangerous, CL.

Personally, I can’t imagine the communist atheist cult evolving into a force for global good the way that your chap Jesus Christ’s cult evolved over the centuries.

There have been many phases for your cult, good, bad, very bad, weak, strong and now you deliver excellent welfare work.

Keep up the good work.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 3:18 pm
Neilson:
I know you have been to my countree
Though I never saw you there;
I know you have loved all things I have loved,
Flowery, sweet, and fair.
The days were long,—it was always play;
But we,—we were tired and worn;
They could not welcome us back again
To the land where I was born.

blogstrop

6 Feb 13 at 3:19 pm
Right. And atheist icon Adolph Hitler buit some incredible highways.

I have never had a good word for Hitler, CL, so don’t fabricate a straw man. But you expressed some praise for atheist communist cult followers, China. Apparently the one good thing they did was to “clear out Tibet”.

But don’t take it to heart. I’m only yanking your rosary beads.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 3:23 pm
Apparently the one good thing they did was to “clear out Tibet”.

Right. They cleared out a centuries old slave and death camp.

Ask Jason Soon, who first made the case to me.

Of course, being atheists, they went on to build one of their own on an epic scale.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 3:25 pm
Watched Question Time today. Gillard and Swan again did not answer a question and misused facts.

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 3:25 pm
Of course, being atheists, they went on to build one of their own on an epic scale.

It’s these man made cults, CL. Very bad juju.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 3:33 pm
I don’t think I have ever felt my unbelief as angst in my adult life

Actually that is not quite true. The wracking sobs in that biology class three years later came upon me after viewing a film showing electron microscopy magnifications of human cell mitosis and meiosis. I knew then that my defenses were breached and that life was inexplicable and that this new thing called ‘education’ that I was grasping at was not goiing to help much there, at the level of really knowing, although I flew into studies in History and English like a lost fledgling to the nest. Funnily enough, I came close to topping the State in Biology although I had never studied anything like it before.

Sobs also brought about of course by a considerable level of lonliness and malnutrition.

Now – back to the C5th pronto.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 3:34 pm
The police not being to provide a list of witnesses against Craig Thomson was not a good look.

Still, on the bright side, it is kind of funny to think that they must be going around pleading with brothels: “please supply us with some witnesses, we will even start paying for our visits if you do.”

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 3:34 pm
Still, on the bright side, it is kind of funny to think that they must be going around pleading with brothels: “please supply us with some witnesses, we will even start paying for our visits if you do.”

Grey, I agree with your position: that senior union officials should be able to engage in fraud to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, especially if they can sink some of that dough into brothels.

Kind of funny, indeed.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 3:38 pm
I’ve always been interested to know the names of the great atheist charities.

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Bill Gates is some sort of agnostic or atheist.

Dangph

6 Feb 13 at 3:41 pm
Grey, I agree with your position:

Well I am happy to hear that because generally I find righties tend to support police corruption. Very refreshing to learn that you are an exception.

What do you think of the admission of the NSW police officer that he had lied when he said that Thomson had been requested to surrender himself to the Victorian court? What do you think the penalty police officers should pay when they are caught lying?

I ask because generally righties are very supportive of police that lie – they even seem to prefer them to ethical police – except in the rare situation when it comes back and bites them, like in Plebgate.

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 3:45 pm
The police not being to provide a list of witnesses against Craig Thomson was not a good look.
I imagine that the police will delay handing in the list until it is legally necessary and not a second before to reduce the possibility of Thomson’s “mates” getting to them and intimidating them.

Cold-Hands

6 Feb 13 at 3:45 pm
That’s one thanks Dangph – any more?

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 3:45 pm
Dangph, if you had ever looked at a Microsoft software license you would realize that he thinks he is God.

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 3:46 pm
This is almost the exact opposite of what mysticism is.

You are quite wrong

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 3:46 pm
What do you think the penalty ~~police officers~~ politicians should pay when they are caught lying?

Cold-Hands

6 Feb 13 at 3:48 pm
In the land of Greenfilth and Labor that usually means a promotion, Coldie.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 3:49 pm
Well I am happy to hear that because generally I find righties tend to support police corruption. Very refreshing to learn that you are an exception.

Fear not. Like you, I totally find all corruption to be hilariously amusing, especially union corruption. We are two peas in a pod, aren’t we, fuckhead?

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 3:50 pm
“Simon Crean led the public flaying of Kevin Rudd … But relations seem to have improved. … The pair were seen in deep conversation yesterday evening during a House of Representatives division on a social security bill.”

I dunno if that means any more, Gabrielle, than two serious minded legislators earnestly discussing the correct placement of semi-colons and “notwithstandings” in the social security bill.

They may momentarily have been setting aside their mutual loathing in the interests of Strain workingk famlees.

On Craig Thomson:

” He was prohibited from knowingly contacting, … Tiffany Girls, Young Blondes and A Touch of Class.

I’m pretty sure they’re not hospitals.

His wife accompanied him today. I feel very sorry for her.”

Why? What he thinks one can do with other people’s money has been well known for years – one assumes she listens to the wireless and reads the Daily Mirror or The Truth.

I’d be fairly sure he’s taken the missus out for dinner and bunch of flowered her often enough, using other people’s money. Girls like that sort of stuff don’t they? Did she ever wonder what the union’s lowest paid members were missing out on so she could tuck into the oysters?

She’s had plenty of time, years, to dwell on what sort of bloke suits her and she’s opted for fame and deceitful and easy money. Oh, and suddenly suicidal and just as suddenly cock sure and gloating again after the need to milk that excuse has passed.

I wouldn’t be casting her as L’il Miss Naive-and-trapped so quickly.

Mick Gold Coast QLD

6 Feb 13 at 3:52 pm
Good to see the COalition has announced that it will oppose the new Anti-Discrimination Bill root and branch.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/roxon_defeated_by_the_free_speech_she_tried_to_gag/

Rococo Liberal

6 Feb 13 at 3:53 pm
Fear not. Like you, I totally find all corruption to be hilariously amusing, especially union corruption. We are two peas in a pod, aren’t we, fuckhead?

Abu Chowdah, you disappoint me. I look for a response to the fact that the NSW police admitted they had lied about Craig Thomson avoiding arrest and what you believed the appropriate sanction for police officers who lie?

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 3:55 pm
Life was inexplicable because I realised then that science had no answers – no-one at all knew what made this process happen, what drove the forces of movement and life – and I’d already called by religion and had found it wanting.

Just having my arvo tea, Gab.

See how I can procrastrinate?

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 3:56 pm
I look for a response to the fact that the NSW police admitted they had lied about Craig Thomson avoiding arrest and what you believed the appropriate sanction for police officers who lie?

It is not a crime to lie, per se. Nor should it be.

.

6 Feb 13 at 3:57 pm
I’m not such a hard taskmaster that i don’t see the benefit of breaks during the creative process, Lizzie. You have 3 minutes.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 3:57 pm
JamesK, I agree with CL here. Mysticism essentially is the direct experience of ultimate reality here and now, whereas you denied the existence of precisely the ultimate reality that mystics claim to experience directly.

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 3:58 pm
“See how I can procrastrinate?”

I think I can but I’m not sure Elizabeth.

Mick Gold Coast QLD

6 Feb 13 at 3:59 pm
It is not a crime to lie, per se. Nor should it be.

And there, in a nutshell, you have the perfect encapsulation of righties views of police corruption.

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 3:59 pm
Yes, I will rail against AGW activism, I will rail against neoDarwinism, I will rail against the Central Dogma of DNA(now thoroughly discredited). Why is it here people can rail against those religions but not organised religion hmmm?

Because beneath the thin veneer of your “agnosticism” is the hard edged judgment of a zealot?

You boldy laid claim to the minds of other peoples children everywhere, implying your mode of thinking is the one-true-faith and that parents who don’t follow your ideology are corrupting their children.

It wasn’t the comment on the (sorry gab) average joke, it was your softened up version of the “religion is child abuse!” canard that commies spouted (and acted upon in the well knows shitholes) for a century and that is now proudly spouted by technocratic NuAtheists. That’s what made people “react”.

Now you’re backpedalling “oh I wasn’t actually saying anything I don’t believe anything” , err yes you did you made a bold statement that children “shouldn’t” be taught about god. And of course other atheists are rushing to defend you despite us constantly being told that atheists are most definitely, absolutely, positively not any sort of collective group who hold any sort of collective beliefs except for all the time.

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 4:00 pm
I’m not a “rightie” and so your argument is bullshit.

Police and prosecutors lie all of the time to catch and convict murderers, robbers, sex offenders, thieves etc.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

You are a nutter if you think a cop or prosecutor being dishonest without doing anything illegal to catch out anyone guilty of the above constitutes a moral or legal problem.

You probably also think Napoleon’s feint whilst retreating from Russia was an ethical problem.

.

6 Feb 13 at 4:03 pm
So nobody outside the family should be teaching our children anything except to read, write and do sums.

Rococo Liberal

6 Feb 13 at 4:04 pm
That’s one thanks Dangph – any more?

Doctors Without Borders / Médecins Sans Frontières.

From their web site: “MSF operates independently of any political, military, or religious agendas.”

Dangph

6 Feb 13 at 4:07 pm
Mysticism essentially is the direct experience of ultimate reality here and now, whereas you denied the existence of precisely the ultimate reality that mystics claim to experience directly.

???

I wrote:

On a superficial reading Judaism and Christianity says: ‘put up with this vale of tears’, live honourably and your reward will be in some after-life.

But mystical Faith provides the reward here and now which in reality is all there is.

Promise of relief in another life just didn’t cut it for me. I needed mystical faith.

Many people (‘old souls’) have no need for mystical faith because they already love ‘here and now’.

Looks to me – and quite clearly – you actually disagree with CL and agree with me d_b

Meister Eckhart: “All God wants of man is a peaceful heart”

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 4:08 pm
Life was inexplicable because I realised then that science had no answers – no-one at all knew what made this process happen, what drove the forces of movement and life – and I’d already called by religion and had found it wanting.

Watch the cricket and all will be revealed Lizzie.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 4:10 pm
MSF operates independently of any political, military, or religious agendas.”

But that doesn’t make them atheists does it Dangp?

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 4:11 pm
prosecutors lie all of the time to catch and convict

Yes that is also corruption. And police lying about the circumstances of Craig Thomson’s arrest can not by even the wildest speculation serve any public purpose.

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 4:12 pm
I’ll be on ABC radio at 4.30am tomorrow morning talking about tax in an election year.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Feb 13 at 4:13 pm
Lamingtons are overrated.

NOT possible.

mct

6 Feb 13 at 4:14 pm
I’ll be on ABC radio at 4.30am tomorrow morning talking about tax in an election year.

Which ABC radio station?

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 4:14 pm
I’m not a “rightie” and so your argument is bullshit.

Most of the people who use terms such as “right winger”, “far right wing nut”, etc do not even know the definition of what right wing is. They seem to think conservative=right wing, which is wrong.

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 4:17 pm
prosecutors lie all of the time to catch and convict

I never said they perjured themselves or that they should.

Yes that is also corruption. And police lying about the circumstances of Craig Thomson’s arrest can not by even the wildest speculation serve any public purpose.

You are out of your mind you fucking imbecile. Trying to accuse non socialists of perjury writ large.

.

6 Feb 13 at 4:18 pm
I’ll be on ABC radio at 4.30am tomorrow morning talking about tax in an election year.

If its Radio National isn’t that normal slot for The Goons Show?

Seriously, I used to have 5 O’clock shift starts and have blurry memories of rolling out of bed as Neddy Seccombe blared out of the radio alarm clock.

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 4:19 pm
Which ABC radio station?

I think they all converge overnight.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Feb 13 at 4:20 pm
4:30 am? Is it worth the effort?

Or pre-recorded?

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 4:20 pm
Secular does not mean atheist it means non-religious which does not mean atheist

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 4:20 pm
Like all zombie fuckheads, Grey, you are a very accomplished liar in attempting to verbal the NSW police. Like all zombie fuckheads, you defend every last fellow leftist liar, conman and extortionist right down to the last stolen tax dollar. Not to put too fine a point on it, you’re just the typical juvenile human garbage for whom this government was created.

Tom

6 Feb 13 at 4:21 pm
Live – I sacrifice for freedom.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Feb 13 at 4:21 pm
But mystical Faith provides the reward here and now which in reality is all there is.

JamesK, are you denying the reality of a reward in the next life – which for Christianity is not so much congress with multiple virgins but rather the presence of the ultimate ground of Being, namely God – or are you denying the reality of that ultimate ground of Being that mystics purport to directly experience here and now and the rest of us after death?

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 4:21 pm
As a right wing non-conservativee I am all in favour of Police lying if it convicts aGillard supporter and brings Gillard down.
Does this assist in explaining the diff between rightwing and conservative

WhaleHunt Fun

6 Feb 13 at 4:21 pm
Sinclair, to whom will you be speaking?

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 4:22 pm
MSF is a left-wing organisation headed by lefties.

Even so I have charitably donated to them

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 4:23 pm
If you were Craig Thompsons wife when would be the ideal time to divorce him to get Maximum payout?

Now before he loses his pollies pay and pension?

Max

6 Feb 13 at 4:23 pm
Gab – Trevor Chappell (not the cricket player).

Sinclair Davidson

6 Feb 13 at 4:24 pm
She’s got two little kids, doubt she’d want to be a single mother, and he’s told her he’s innocent, she has to believe.

candy

6 Feb 13 at 4:25 pm
Secular does not mean atheist it means non-religious which does not mean atheist

It doesn’t even mean that or else describing parish priests as secular priests would make no sense. All that ‘secular’ denotes is something of this world.

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 4:25 pm
“I never said they perjured themselves or that they should. ”

Dot, I am not sure if you are an Australian or know the Australian system. Prosecutors get a brief of evidence from the police, there is no cause for them ever to lie.

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 4:25 pm
Okay, that’s 774 ABC Melbourne then.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 4:29 pm
But that doesn’t make them atheists does it Dangp?

I guess not, but they are secular.

Atheists say that atheism is a lack of belief in God. It’s hard to imagine a group of people banding together to do charitable works based on a shared lack of belief in something.

You would never have a charity based on a shared lack of belief in a teapot orbiting the Sun for instance.

But if we divide charities up into religious and secular ones, I think there are a lot of secular ones.

I wonder how much atheist individuals give to charity. That would be interesting to know.

Dangph

6 Feb 13 at 4:30 pm
JamesK, are you denying the reality of a reward in the next life – which for Christianity is not so much congress with multiple virgins but rather the presence of the ultimate ground of Being, namely God – or are you denying the reality of that ultimate ground of Being that mystics purport to directly experience here and now and the rest of us after death?

I know nothing of an after-life d_b.

The ground of being is here and now.

Einstein showed us that time is not independent/real.

When Meister Eckhart said: “God is at home, it’s we who have gone out for a walk”, I’m certain he didn’t mean we had to physically die to return

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 4:31 pm
looks like gillard’s quit.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 4:32 pm
Atheists say that atheism is a lack of belief in God

No.

Atheists believe that there is no God.

Agnostics have no belief. They simply don’t know.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 4:33 pm
That’s elite level trolling and dissembling but Police and prosecutors routinely lie (undercover work etc) and deceive (feigning sympathy etc.) suspects and those accused of crimes.

As long as they don’t perjure or commit another crime not approved under a controlled operation (as they are called in NSW), I have little problem with it, for the above crimes which have no element of being a victimless crime.

Keep on spinning to defend a bloke who stole union fees off janitors and orderlies…so he could bang hookers and tell the biggest load of shit ever said in Parliament. Hopefully after he has been convicted, Parliament will punish him for that as well (lying to Parliament).

You have accused non socialists of endorsing perjury writ large whilst at the same time backing Australia’s most famous perjurer.

Fuck off you arseclown.

.

6 Feb 13 at 4:34 pm
looks like gillard’s quit.

getting our hopes up.

Sinclair Davidson

6 Feb 13 at 4:34 pm
No, just joking, but it shut the God-bothering atheists up for a bit

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 4:36 pm
She’s got two little kids, doubt she’d want to be a single mother, and he’s told her he’s innocent, she has to believe.

She was also a media officer with the notoriuous Transport Workers Union.

She knows exactly what goes on in unions.

People need to ask his ex-wife if they want to hear the truth.

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 4:38 pm
Gab – Trevor Chappell (not the cricket player).

Oh, that means ‘local radio’ – 774 (old 3LO) in Melbourne, 666 in Canberra, etc. Not radio national.

Not sure ‘local radio’ is the right term when there’s so much networking, though. :-\

Steve D

6 Feb 13 at 4:39 pm
“ wonder how much atheist individuals give to charity. That would be interesting to know.”

Same as everyone since the vast majority of peoole are atheists.
Very few believe the bullshit dribbling out of the mouths of high priests. They just tell themselves theyre christian or whatever.

WhaleHunt Fun

6 Feb 13 at 4:39 pm
Because beneath the thin veneer of your “agnosticism” is the hard edged judgment of a zealot?

You are a mind reader? Now that’s faith. You play the game too many undergrad psychologists play: intern syndrome, you think you know what lies underneath. You need to be more agnostic.

I did not say religion is child abuse. I made the perfectly reasonable observation that children should not be instructed in concepts for which their minds are not prepared. Education is predicated on the very idea of a gradual lifting up of understanding yet some wish to inculcate in young minds the most inaccessible and incomprehensible aspects of being human. If you are happy with children being forced to memorise Koran verses then you and I live in different worlds.

Mysticism essentially is the direct experience of ultimate reality here and now, whereas you denied the existence of precisely the ultimate reality that mystics claim to experience directly.

For the most part, and they are wrong. Some Zen dudes will counter it is about perception, not reality; though disentangling those things is damn difficult. There is no unadulterated sensory experience, it is interpretation from sense to neocortex.

Meister Eckhart: “All God wants of man is a peaceful heart”

Wonderful, tis like

And learning better to feel joy, we learn best not to hurt others or plan hurts for them. Nietzsche, Thus Spake.

Life was inexplicable because I realised then that science had no answers

Science is always on the move. Just today I received a draft of yet another interpretation of what really happens in evolution. Oh damn I’m sick of that. I’d have to spend the entire year trying to critique it. I don’t have time for that. I had enough problems with the Alternberg 16, let alone Ian Stewart’s wonderful mathematical ideas.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 4:39 pm
Who is the judge hearing the Thomson case?

It would appear the kiwi Thomson defence would center around the fact that he didn’t break the rules (that he wrote) to govern his statutory organisation, and that anything related to the funding his election has passed statutory limitations. On the face of it, he would appear to have acted within the law and managed to avoid other penalties by the grace of the ALP dragging out the investigation.

So, this is potentially a huge case. Could a sympathetic judge possibly fuck over the most basic election funding methods of the ALP and reform governance of statutory (union) organisations?

Dan

6 Feb 13 at 4:39 pm
Gab, how could you get our hopes up like that?

Quit what?

kae

6 Feb 13 at 4:40 pm
After questioning gillard yesterday about her plans to get her scrawny talons on our superannuation, Abbott gets results:

JULIA Gillard has ruled out a new tax on payments from superannuation funds by repeating a 2010 vow that Labor would “never” remove the tax-free benefits for the over 60s.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 4:40 pm
Snap!

(Must refresh before posting…)

Steve D

6 Feb 13 at 4:40 pm
looks like gillard’s quit.

Quit what?

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 4:40 pm
prosecutors routinely lie (undercover work etc) and deceive (feigning sympathy etc.) suspects and those accused of crimes.

Dot, I am always willing to learn. Give me an example of a prosecutor lying in the performance of their duty in Australia and that being viewed as appropriate behaviour. Or just an example of a prosecutor lying – a concrete example.

I suspect you are an American and don’t understand the Australian system. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but this is an Australian site, so when you use the word prosecutor it has a particular meaning here.

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 4:41 pm
Atheists believe that there is no God.

I get the impression that most self-described atheists define it as an absence of belief rather than a belief of absence, but I could be wrong.

Dangph

6 Feb 13 at 4:42 pm
Nietzsche, Thus Spake.

He also committed suicide, becoming quite mad at the end.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 4:42 pm
I have already answered you from the perspective of a New South Welshman. Go back and re-read what I said Grey.

Despite how hard you try, you have not proven that Thomson is morally superior to anyone who doesn’t vote for the ALP or Greens, and you never will.

.

6 Feb 13 at 4:50 pm
He also committed suicide, becoming quite mad at the end.

Syphilis, apparently.

One of the funniest quotes I can relate about that author, is when a mate’s dear ol’ mum (a devout Catholic) found his copies of Thus Spake Zarathustra and the Antichrist.

She accosted him, waving the books around and proclaiming:

“Who is this Niyeechee person?”

Rabz

6 Feb 13 at 4:51 pm
I have already answered you from the perspective of a New South Welshman. Go back and re-read what I said Grey.

Sorry, who is this New South Welshman? Is this a prosecutor who lied? Which New South Wales prosecutor in particular?
Details please.

In the Australian system prosecutors are not supposed to lie in the course of their professional duties. It is that simple.

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 4:54 pm
I did not say religion is child abuse

You said children “shouldn’t” be going to Sunday School. Which is simply a softer version of it.

Why “shouldn’t” they we then wonder?

Because:

If you are happy with children being forced to memorise Koran verses then you and I live in different worlds.

Oh. So you say children “shouldn’t” be going to sunday school because you think it’s abuse. So why say you don’t think it is then come up with an “example” of why you think it is? As a kid I often spent time at Sunday School memorising bible verses. What difference does it make?

Talk about a straw man though. You first said Sunday School now you’re talking about being forced to memorise the Koran? (I see what you did there evil Koran is evil right).

I’m interested though do you think an hour a week reading verses from the Koran or Bible is less or more superior a use of a childs time than watching TV or playing the XBox during the same time?

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 4:54 pm
Abbott owns her head.

pete m

6 Feb 13 at 4:54 pm
omg I’m in moderation – save me sinc!

pete m

6 Feb 13 at 4:56 pm
Syphilis, apparently.

Probably. Currently reading The Creation of Psychopharmacology by David Healy. He states that a great many people in asylums were there from STDs. This might explain why there are now relatively so few in mental institutions because STDs have been very much controlled. Modern psychiatry, even that demonised ECT, which can work wonderfully well, has also made huge strides(despite the criticisms of this text I am reading!).

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 4:56 pm
Re Gillard’s promise on super I remain unconvinced. She has not ruled out other taxes or charges, nor has she ruled out tinkering with any of the current taxes associated with super.

Then of course there is the “There will be no carbon tax” ~~lie~~ misstatement from Ms Gillard prior to the last election. Untrustworthy bitch.

Lloyd

6 Feb 13 at 4:56 pm
test

Grey

6 Feb 13 at 4:57 pm
Just read this on The Bum (aka The Drum), Tony Abbott allowing a conscience vote on gay marriage would potentially result in a “swing towards the Coalition of up to 1.3 million Australians”.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4504222.html

The blog is hilarious.

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 4:58 pm
the vast majority of peoole are atheists.

Actually I think that most people are religious in some sense. Most people are either explicitly religious or they describe themselves as “spiritual”. I had some data on that once, but I can’t find it now. I think it was something like 75% of people were either religious or spiritual, and that held true across all countries no matter how secular the countries were.

Dangph

6 Feb 13 at 5:01 pm
When Meister Eckhart said: “God is at home, it’s we who have gone out for a walk”, I’m certain he didn’t mean we had to physically die to return

True. But I’m equally certain that he didn’t mean that the here and now is all there is; quite the opposite.

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 5:01 pm
test

Good afternoon and welcome to the Cat automated response system;

press 1 for site advice

press 2 to sing along with the alp/greens Howler Monkeys

press 3 for general derision for silly statements

press 4 to be transferred to the alpbc for a circle jerk

press 5 to hook up with ms summers

Thank You for calling.

Carpe Jugulum

6 Feb 13 at 5:08 pm
Yay! Sven’s back.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 5:11 pm
press 6 for the department of silly walks

press 7 for an aura reading

press 8 for JC’s greatest hits

press 9 for GOD

press 10 for the answer to “Am I gullible”

pete m

6 Feb 13 at 5:15 pm
Trevor Chappell (not the cricket player)

A personable broadcaster but very orthodox ABC ie CAGW-believer, Obamaphile, Pro-gay marriage and so on. I’ve heard a bit of his program (2.00 am – 5.30 am) when insomniac.

Cold-Hands

6 Feb 13 at 5:16 pm
Actually I think that most people are religious in some sense.

I think most are non-religious, but don’t like to commit… if pressed as to whether they believe in God, they’ll say, “No, yeah, no… I dunno”…

Fleeced

6 Feb 13 at 5:17 pm
Abbott owns her head.

He should put it out for collection.

kae

6 Feb 13 at 5:19 pm
Yay! Sven’s back.

Stop.Calling.Me.Sven

Sure, i’m a good looking rooster in a not actually nordic way but most people call me Kurisu or Kurisama. Except english speakers or people in the Southern Hemisphere, apart from that, everyone.

Thank you – resume your usual programming.

Although there is some Germanic in my past? mmmmmmmm

Carpe Jugulum

6 Feb 13 at 5:21 pm
what mysticism is.

I do not think that this can be rationally analysed CL.

Poetry comes close, but it is still thought, which mysticism is not. And like life, we do not even know what thought is.

‘In the beginning was the Word … ‘
‘and the Darkness comprehendeth it not … ‘
‘a light, not of the sky …. ‘
‘amost sound … ‘
‘listening to the orange tree …’
‘listening with the orange tree … ‘(my emphases, Nielsen uses both)

I am rather wary of mysticism because on that path also lies a sidetrack to madness and I have seen a lot of madness in my personal world. By whatever grace there may be I have not been touched in this way, nor will I be, but there are genetic linkages which urge caution and groundedness whilst never denying something in yourself that belongs to humanity itself.

James K, I do like your theologian.

Mick, you know how something niggles and you have to get back to it? What did Mick mean, what did Mick mean?

OK, so I can’t spell when I am hot and feeling woozy thinking deepish thoughts.

P R O C R A S T I N A T E

No r. Hope that is better. Now you know what I do well.

I am now procrastinating due to HIA calling, and a doorknock from someone collecting for a children’s charity, so I had a little chat with her too while she was working on the receipt.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 5:22 pm
Chrissie Swan is apparently the focus of an ethical storm because she has been smoking on and off during her third pregnancy. Had she (and her husband) decided to terminate her pregnancy there would be a stunning silence in the media and we would be being told that this was a private decision that women should be allowed to struggle with without moralistic hectoring from the media or public. We really live in the midst of absolutely stunning incoherence and studied stupidity.

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 5:24 pm
Stop.Calling.Me.Sven

So no Carpe Sven? Oh.

PS. You started it!

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 5:25 pm
He should ~~put it out for collection~~ rent out the spare room.

FTFY Kae

Carpe Jugulum

6 Feb 13 at 5:25 pm
PS. You started it!

Yes thats true – curse my excitable, yet lazy typing.

I blame the goverment (of course)

Carpe Jugulum

6 Feb 13 at 5:28 pm
I think most are non-religious, but don’t like to commit… if pressed as to whether they believe in God, they’ll say, “No, yeah, no… I dunno”…

I think most people have a feeling of God. That’s why they call themselves spiritual even if they don’t like religion as such. You may not feel that yourself. It’s not universal. I’ve felt it fleetingly on occasion. I don’t know what it was. It may have just been purely neurological, a side effect of some brain function. But I have no way of knowing, so I don’t really care.

Dangph

6 Feb 13 at 5:29 pm
Don’t be silly, Carpe Sven.

It’s not the government, it’s AbbottAbbottAbbott!

kae

6 Feb 13 at 5:40 pm
I don’t know what it was. It may have just been purely neurological, a side effect of some brain function.

Check out Persinger’s “God Helmet”. It don’t provide anything but it does demonstrate that this feeling can be very magnetic.

Also, a brave neuroscientist has written a book outlining various themes which clearly point to a non-physical element in our behavior. See “Brain Wars”. Very interesting read.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 5:40 pm
I still don’t see how you agree with CL and disagree with me.

You said:

Mysticism essentially is the direct experience of ultimate reality here and now, whereas you denied the existence of precisely the ultimate reality that mystics claim to experience directly.

Christian Refection: What is a mystic?

“To speak of mystics today is to risk misunderstanding,” Emilie Griffin warns. “Many Christians (mistakenly, I think) associate mystics exclusively with cults and Eastern religions, ignoring our long Christian centuries of intimate union with God in Jesus Christ. Such a view is too limited. In biblical history, in the early Christian communities, in later Christianity, and in the church of today, mysticism still matters, for it brings us close to God who whispers and guides.”
Bernard McGinn defines Christian mysticism as a form of spirituality that “concerns the preparation for, the consciousness of, and the reaction to…the immediate or direct presence of God.” Mystics describe their experience in various ways—as union or communion with God, ecstasy or intimacy, seeing visions or hearing voices, and so on.
Nevertheless, Griffin suggests, “there are many quiet, unrecognized mystics, mystics who fly below the radar. They are close to God, transformed by that relationship, but may never look
like ‘mystics’ in the eyes of others. In fact, being a mystic has little to do with visions or ecstasies. Instead, a mystic is a person far advanced in the spiritual life, one who very likely spends
time in prayer and worship with a disciplined regularity. Wouldn’t such a definition include a large number of people?”

The only “immediate or direct presence of God” is only ever here and now.

I don’t know of any after-life.

Between thoughts I know neither death nor my self-image reference.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 5:43 pm
Don’t be silly, Carpe Sven.

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO, not you too.

Thats it, i’m calling Floyd the wonder dog on you missy.

Carpe Jugulum

6 Feb 13 at 5:45 pm
Woah – that ended up aot. /

Carpe Jugulum

6 Feb 13 at 5:46 pm
Check out Persinger’s “God Helmet”. It don’t provide anything but it does demonstrate that this feeling can be very magnetic.

I was thinking that the effect of the helmet could either be purely physical or it could be lowering some perceptual barrier to God in some way. Like you say, it doesn’t prove anything.

See “Brain Wars”. Very interesting read.

Thanks. You have mentioned this book before. I have it on my to-read list.

Dangph

6 Feb 13 at 5:47 pm
Derryn Hinch has lost his mind. On his website he claims that Abbott needs to question George Pell about sexual assault in the Church and if he has had any conversations with Pell on such a topic, he needs to be open about them to the public.

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 5:52 pm
Yet another thread ruined by the atheist holy-rollers.

C.L.

6 Feb 13 at 5:52 pm
Derryn Hinch has lost his mind. On his website he claims that Abbott needs to question George Pell about sexual assault in the Church and if he has had any conversations with Pell on such a topic, he needs to be open about them to the public.

Yeah, and Gillard needs to question Thomson and so many others in the ALP about their sexual lives. Really, Hinch is bonkas. Pell has been remiss but so many organisations have refused to address this issue so the blame goes all around. When they first started using LSD in therapy it was noted that some patients started reporting about child sex abuse they experienced. The claims were dismissed as fabrications. Freud made similiar observations and accepted that hysteria could be the result of child sex abuse. So for a very long time it has been on record that child sexual abuse is a problem throughout cultures and it has remained remarkably underground.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 5:56 pm
Yet another thread ruined by the atheist holy-rollers.

Yeah sure CL, this agnostic refers people to texts which challenge even agnosticism let alone atheism. I didn’t derail anything, people chose to respond with smug remarks. They could have just let it go but kept on coming.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 5:58 pm
looks like gillard’s quit.

You is de debbil, Gab.

Got my attention there.

Septimus

6 Feb 13 at 6:01 pm
I still don’t see how you agree with CL and disagree with me…..The only “immediate or direct presence of God” is only ever here and now.

When I said,

Mysticism essentially is the direct experience of ultimate reality here and now, whereas you denied the existence of precisely the ultimate reality that mystics claim to experience directly.

I meant that mystics directly experience a reality that is normally hidden from us even though this reality is indispensable to the world of appearances. Now, I can’t speak for CL, but when I read what you wrote above thread you seemed to be arguing that the world of appearances was ultimate and no mystic has ever believed that the world of appearances was in any sense ultimate and the end of the story.

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 6:01 pm
you seemed to be arguing that the world of appearances was ultimate

No I certainly wasn’t arguing that.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 6:04 pm
Konbanwa Kurisu Carpe Sven sama,

Genki desu ka?

jag antog talar svenska

Septimus yori

Septimus

6 Feb 13 at 6:18 pm
All religious / non-religious debate has been solved by the phrase:

Each to their own.

Now F**k off. (h/t Russell Crowe)

pete m

6 Feb 13 at 6:19 pm
hehehe You is de debbil too, Septimus

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 6:20 pm
Former Media Watch host Stuart Littlemore now suddenly referred to as the “Barrister for the Obeids” on Your ALPBC. How curious.

H B Bear

6 Feb 13 at 6:26 pm
Assholes. Far too much of this going on. Makes life for doctors very difficult.

Published clinical trials shown to be misleading

A rare peek into drug company documents reveals troubling differences between publicly available information and materials the company holds close to its chest. In comparing public and private descriptions of drug trials conducted by pharmaceutical giant Pfizer, researchers discovered discrepancies including changes in the number of study participants and inconsistent definitions of protocols and analyses.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 6:28 pm
All religious / non-religious debate

For a debate you need two rational arguments, not an argument and a drug-delusion.

WhaleHunt Fun

6 Feb 13 at 6:31 pm
C’mon WhaleHunt Fun, that is being rather too harsh of non-religious arguments; some of them are in fact arguments.

dover_beach

6 Feb 13 at 6:35 pm
Assholes. Far too much of this going on. Makes life for doctors very difficult.

Au contraire. it’s what you would expwect.

The FDA is a nightmare for drug companies and is a major reason for the high price of pharmaceutical drugs.

Nice article from Richard Epstein a few years ago on just one aspect:

Cancer Patients Deserve Faster Access to Life-Saving Drugs
Companies should be able to promote all uses of their drugs that are reliably shown to be effective.

As President Barack Obama’s new Food and Drug Administration team of Margaret Hamburg and Joshua Sharfstein take the reins, they must decide what to do with off-label uses of FDA-approved drugs. Right now these drugs provide immense life-saving opportunities for many sick patients, particularly those threatened by cancer. The FDA and Congress should protect physicians’ and patients’ right to off-label uses — and for the first time allow drug makers to promote off-label uses that prove beneficial.

JamesK

6 Feb 13 at 6:59 pm
Assholes. Far too much of this going on. Makes life for doctors very difficult.

There has been complete regulatory capture of the FDA by the drug companies. The whole thing is corrupt. The regulators are worse than useless because they provide a false sense of security to the public. A free market would be preferable.

Dangph

6 Feb 13 at 7:02 pm
Companies should be able to promote all uses of their drugs that are reliably shown to be effective.

But that’s the catch James. The recent Cochrane Review of antidepressants was not very encouraging. The book I am currently reading on the history of psychopharmacology is intriguing because it seems that some approaches are just abandoned. I was particularly fascinated by the findings of the late 60′s regarding the impact of methyl donors on psychiatric conditions. Very new to me, I’d only heard about SAMe in that regard.

One idea put forward is that all proposed research should have protocols and methods stated before conducting the research so that the bods can’t fudge the results afterwards.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 7:04 pm
Quick check back and I see two small errors for correction:

Poet is John Shaw Nielson. Not Shawn Nielson.
He refers to ‘in’ the Orange Tree, ‘on’ the Orange Tree, and ‘like’ (not ‘with’) the Orange Tree.

Just for the academic nit-pickers who always seem to lurk around.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 7:08 pm
Konbanwa Kurisu Carpe Sven sama,

Genki desu ka?

Good evening to you from myself and Lady Jugulum, yes we are fine.

Don’t.Call.Me.Sven (Thor is acceptable, but only if you genuflect.)
kiite kurete arigatou Septimu sama

Carpe Jugulum

6 Feb 13 at 7:16 pm
JohnH

I don’t find that out of the ordinary. Some of the tests conducted by the firm my differ from the clinical trials demanded by the FDA and of course the results could very well differ. There’s nothing at all to be worried about there.

Keep in mind that even if a pharma succeeded through the protocols demanded by the FDA it’s still doesn’t protect the firm from legal liability.

JC

6 Feb 13 at 7:37 pm
The 7.30 Report is doing the right thing for Labor – putting “Sport Back On The Front Page”. Not Obeid, not Thompson.

blogstrop

6 Feb 13 at 7:38 pm
Gillards latest stunt.

Comment:
“My dictionary (not macquarie)

Child pawn. noun

The act of using an innocent child to gain emotional leverage over people who care for the well being of children. Often without the informed consent of the child that is being exposed to the public.”

Rudiau

6 Feb 13 at 7:40 pm
Don’t.Call.Me.Sven-y

That could be put to music, so desu ne?.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 7:45 pm
Nicola Roxon, boy do we know how you feel

A commenter called Casper lets fly

Tiny Dancer

6 Feb 13 at 7:49 pm
Just stumbled on this story, its so cliché.

You know how it goes…those kooky Norwegians and their goatcheese, a bit of naked flame and wham…

Token

6 Feb 13 at 7:50 pm
Gillards latest stunt.

Hilarious.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 7:59 pm
“Gillards latest stunt.”

sad.

candy

6 Feb 13 at 8:03 pm
The seamier side of the Obeid matters at ICAC were avoided by the 7.30 clique in large part because they had the distraction of the Perisher Valley jollies. While this is a bit tittilating, it is, when all’s said and done, only a sideshow.
Next: (it is the ABC after all) the subject of Gay Marriage was higher in priority than any other political distraction here in Australia.

blogstrop

6 Feb 13 at 8:04 pm
Ms Gillard really is the pits. She who did not want children is now borrowing children all over the place to use them as political props. What a disgrace.

I have seen Ms Gillard up close at various functions where she is with the public — the first thing she does is grab the first baby she can lay those grasping digits on, and bills and coos to show what a wonderful mother she’d have made but didn’t want to be one but pretend to be one is fine while Tony Abbott has a real family of his own that he wanted and created with his lovely wife.

To give her her due she’s always wanted a husband — yeah sure — as long as it was someone elses —

Truly I have run out of outrage for this disgraceful excuse for a person.

I know I know this is distraction No 219 — but really ……… what next?

Tintarella di Luna

6 Feb 13 at 8:06 pm
Newman’s government is in the shit again.
They’re cutting the state government support of medical supplies for people like haemophiliacs who need needles to inject their “drug”.
400-odd people received letters to this effect.
Problem was that the letters didn’t mention that they’d be able to claim these charges from the Federal Government.
Saving the state $700,000.
Hmmm.
No link, sorry!

kae

6 Feb 13 at 8:09 pm
In the Australian system prosecutors are not supposed to lie in the course of their professional duties. It is that simple.

No Grey. It is not that simple.

A prosecutor or any barrister will bluff (lying) and feign concern (lying) with the opposition but also breach the rules of the bar as much as they can get away with it (lying when they apologise for it).

These snippets of reality does not make Craig Thomson innocent of 154 charges of fraud and lying to Parliament or make non socialists guilty of tacitly accepting corruption.

However, keep spinning away, I’m sure your obfuscation is gonna make Gillard win and beat the misogynist Abbot lose…or something.

The police and prosecutors quite rightly lie to suspects and the accused when it is in a public interest and they commit no crime in doing so other than a controlled operation.

Outside of victimless crimes, deceiving people in policing (undercover operations) or prosecution (bluffing or feigning concern etc.) does good for society.

You probably think that catching Fowler on tape to an undercover cop was “illegal”.

Fuckhead.

Thomson is guilty as sin and Gillard will not win.

THE END

.

6 Feb 13 at 8:12 pm
This was Barnaby yesterday.( try to hear it the way Barnaby tells it, with a smile in his voice )

What sense of competence do you get from a government when you find out that they bought a property, Toorale Station, near Bourke, and the Commonwealth taxpayer shelled out $23.75 million. The closest that this government ever got to that place was 30,000 feet on their way to Darwin. They never set foot on it.

The story goes that this place was going to auction and someone from the government rang up and said: ‘We may have an interest in that place. What is your reserve?’ The sellers said, ‘We do not tell you the reserve before we sell a place.’ I know that Senator Fifield, who used to work in the Treasurer’s office, will be fascinated by this. The government said, ‘We are really interested.’ They went back and had a meeting and said, ‘The government has just rung up and wants to buy Toorale, wants us to tell them the reserve.’ The bloke said, ‘Tell them to go jump.’ Anyway, the number they actually had in mind was $16 million but they said, ‘If they ring back, just say 23.’ Guess what! They rang back and said, ‘It is 23.’ They thought they would drive a really hard deal. So do you know what they said then? They said, ‘But it has still got cattle on it.’ They said, ‘They have to go and that will cost more.’ So it cost the Australian taxpayer $750,000 to remove the Commonwealth’s stock off their own place and have them sold.

The ALP, the great NEGOSHUATORS!!

jumpnmcar

6 Feb 13 at 8:20 pm
What did the morons want to do with the land they purchased with taxpayer’s money?

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 8:22 pm
The PM said the Opposition planned to axe superannuation tax cuts for people earning under $37,000 which would cost people hundreds of dollars and would be “cruel” towards low-income workers who were mostly women.

Says the lying slapper conveniently forgetting what she did to single mothers. She is the pits.

“Don’t hurt 3.6 million Australians… don’t hurt these working women,” Ms Gillard said.

Tiny Dancer

6 Feb 13 at 8:31 pm
What about the married man’s whore, married women?

Or the orphans and widows of the Orphan and Widows fund?

.

6 Feb 13 at 8:33 pm
Dot, why did you buy into Grey’s stupid equivalency game?

Grey endorses corruption and then implies a stupid error by a police official who should know better is the same as stealing from the poor workers in hospitals.

Grey is creepy.

Token

6 Feb 13 at 8:34 pm
Gab

What did the morons want to do with the land they purchased with taxpayer’s money?

Just Barnaby riffin on ALP competence or lack thereof.
.The rest is here.
BILLS
Water Amendment (Water for the Environment Special Account) Bill 2012
Second Reading
Joyce, Sen Barnaby

( WARNING , Sarah Huffn-Puff next up )

jumpnmcar

6 Feb 13 at 8:36 pm
THE Opposition has called on Labor to apologise for using taxpayers money to send newsletters to households boasting it had “delivered” a Budget surplus.

Pathological liars the lot of them. Hockey brought this up today in QT. Swan naturally never answered Hockey’s question, preferring to attack the Libs as is their mantra.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 8:37 pm
Just Barnaby riffin on ALP competence or lack thereof.

Still, am curious to know what the government will do with the land. They could build a chalet and truck in fake snow, I suppose.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 8:39 pm
Sven, Floyd’s not listening!

kae

6 Feb 13 at 8:39 pm
There’s nothing at all to be worried about there.

Stick to trading. When people publish results that do not accord with the data they are liars. What you don’t appreciate is that many trials are done, then the bods choose the trials and statistical analysis to provide a result most favourable to their cause. That is the problem here. I suppose climate scientists are a different matter though eh JC? They must be condemned for fudging data but not Big Pharma. Really JC, come on, that’s just not on.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 8:41 pm
Tooralie Station, a productive unit, was closed down for flim-flam political greenie points and water rights. Paid way too much. Then the deluge. Water everywhere.

blogstrop

6 Feb 13 at 8:43 pm
Oh, and that Wong chap was in the thick of it.

blogstrop

6 Feb 13 at 8:45 pm
JohnH

So you’re saying trials conducted differently will spew out eggsact same results.

Ummmmmm.

That is the problem here. I suppose climate scientists are a different matter though eh JC? They must be condemned for fudging data but not Big Pharma. Really JC, come on, that’s just not on.

anyone should be condemned for lying. However pound for pound Pharma are babes in the woods compared to the layabouts swine currently in climate science.

JC

6 Feb 13 at 8:50 pm
Sven, Floyd’s not listening!

Don’t.Call.Me.Sven

PS: Floyd & I Have an arrangement, be afraid, be very afraid

Carpe Jugulum

6 Feb 13 at 8:52 pm
Big Pharma is a business. Climate alarmism is bringing down western democracy.

blogstrop

6 Feb 13 at 8:53 pm
Oh, and that Wong chap was in the thick of it.

Yes, fine chap that Perry Wong, a good man.

Oh wait…

Carpe Jugulum

6 Feb 13 at 8:54 pm
Everyone has played the game of “tag” when they were kids.
This group of men have been playing for 23 years.
With no end in sight.
Awesome !

jumpnmcar

6 Feb 13 at 9:02 pm
John

Why did it take so long for the contraceptive pill to have problems?

.

6 Feb 13 at 9:04 pm
Does it really make sense banning Craig Thomson from visiting hookers?
Judge’s logic: Craig is accused of spending other people’s money on hookers. We will ensure Craig doesn’t continue to do this by forbidding him from seeing hookers. […]
In fact, I believe, a large portion of the fraud involved spending on political campaigning […]

He’s banned from visiting hookers who, for money, already have a propensity to oblige their clients; the magistrate clearly and rightly fears that Thomson could offer inducements to corruptible prostitutes for their perjurious testimony.
He’s not banned from visiting meretricious members of his former party who, for money, already have a propensity to screw the people whom they are supposed to represent; the magistrate surely realises that current government MPs and party bigwigs could not possibly be corrupted any more than they already are.

Deadman

6 Feb 13 at 9:09 pm
The Tooralee shambles is a fave of mine. Needs to be dissected line by line.

Pickles

6 Feb 13 at 9:11 pm
More Barnaby:

This is why you have to be so careful: because any government that is going to an election talking about economic prudence—talking about having the capacity to get the economy going—is going to look awfully odd if one of its front-and-centre pieces is a policy to actually shut down economies. When you really think about it, the way it is going about this is that it is borrowing money from overseas. We are in debt by $262 billion, and 86 per cent of that money that we have borrowed comes in from overseas—from the good people of China and from the people in the Middle-East. All of these prudent people saving their money send it over to us because we cannot make our incomes meet our expenses and our debt gets bigger and bigger—we borrowed in excess of $2 billion last week—and ultimately we have to pay these people back. But when you think about it, when you really drill down to it, we are borrowing money from overseas not to create a productive asset that can pay things off—not to actually build a new factory or a new dam or to increase our capacity to meet our debts. We are borrowing money from overseas to shut the factories down and to shut the towns down. It is a double whammy. We are borrowing the money and we are reducing the size of the economic component that is supposed to pay it off. It is a very, very strange and peculiar thing. It is a job for Inspector Clouseau, something we must investigate more closely. It needs a rather large magnifying glass to work out why we are doing this.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 9:14 pm
Big Pharma is a business.

Big Pharma are rent-seeking arseholes… lots of corruption there. Largely caused by government policy, of course, but then what isn’t?

I’ve been a long-standing skeptic of so-called “alternative medicine” as opposed to what I would call the “real” scientific kind… that certainly hasn’t changed, but I’ve recently realised how rife with dodginess this “real” medicine is.

I don’t have a problem with big Pharma being “greedy” – Greed is often (though not always) a great driving force for good – but the medical industry is far from a free market, and far from being “weeded out”, medical malinvestment is incentivised. The whole system is a shambles.

Fleeced

6 Feb 13 at 9:15 pm
Senator JOYCE (Queensland—Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) (14:27): My question is to the Minister the Finance and Deregulation and Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Wong. I refer the Minister to the fact that the Reserve Bank of Australia data has the government currently borrowing $27.8 billion in the first six months of this financial year, and we are now in excess of $262 billion in gross debt. Given that this is a larger amount than what the government borrowed in the first six months of the 2009-10 financial year, why is the government borrowing more money now than during the height of the global financial crisis?

Senator WONG (South Australia—Minister for Finance and Deregulation) (14:28): Senator Joyce really does the opposition no credit when it comes to their economic credibility, and given the looks on the faces of the coalition front bench, I think people would agree with me on that side, because when Senator Joyce stands up a couple of those over there who might have some inkling about these issues just drop their heads. This is the man who seeks high office as a minister, should the coalition win government.

The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, come to the answer.

Senator WONG: In relation to the government’s debt position, I make two points: the first is that net debt, as a percentage of GDP was 10 per cent in 2011-12. That is around one-tenth the level of the major advanced economies. Under this government we see this nation with a AAA credit rating with a stable outlook from all three international credit-rating agencies. But Senator Joyce wants to come in here and say that he knows more than everyone else in the markets and everyone else in the rating agencies.

Senator Joyce: Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. Why has the government borrowed more money during the last six months than at the height of the global financial crisis?

Senator Conroy interjecting—

Senator Joyce: Would the Leader of the Government in the Senate stop interjecting—otherwise can we put the other bloke back?

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 9:17 pm
Senator WONG: Senator Sinodinos is leaving the chamber. He cannot wait for your third question, Senator—or even your second question. Gross debt as a percentage of GDP is 18.4 per cent in 2011-12 and 2012-13. I take from that question an acknowledgement, which is an unusual one from the opposition, that there was in fact a global financial crisis. The opposition opposed the government’s stimulus package, opposed the action that saved 200,000 jobs. One thing we know from that decision and from so many others is that it is the people on this side of the chamber who care about Australian jobs; it is the Labor Party who care about jobs, not those opposite. (Time expired)

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 9:18 pm
Yet another thread ruined by the atheist holy-rollers.

An observation on which reasonable men may differ.

Abu Chowdah

6 Feb 13 at 9:24 pm
Don’t.Call.Me.Sven

Hai. So. Desu.

And no more trying to speak svenska

Septimus

6 Feb 13 at 9:25 pm
Barnaby might be ridiculing the ALP government in Canberra, but the long term goal is to get all the pastoral leases back into the crown and destock the bush of human influence. They do it by buying a property outright if it is private, or not renew the pastoral lease if it is leasehold, or gazette land as reserves, parks or whatever.

In addition government is making exploration more onerous now requiring us in the NT to consult with all stakeholders with an interest in the mining title we take out. This means basically having everyone approve our activities each and every year as part of our license conditions. This technique is basically the boiling frog method, or death by a thousand cuts, and its being implemented at both federal and state level. Both main political parties support this agenda, UN Agenda 21.’

Except that the utopia they are looking at will implode because the remain dogmatically attached to the original socialist fallacy of hoping to get something for nothing.

Louis Hissink

6 Feb 13 at 9:25 pm
BARNABY: Senator Faulkner says that I deny climate change. I do not deny climate change at all. I just deny that they have the capacity to change it back. I was watching the weather intently over the Christmas break and since the carbon tax it seems to be around about where we left it last time. I thought that it was all going to be better now that the carbon tax is in. I thought that we had climate nirvana, but it is about where we left it. I want my money back. What happened to the weather? It was supposed to be fixed up by now after the carbon tax!

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 9:32 pm
“Oh, and that Wong chap was in the thick of it.”

Comrade Senator Mssssr Wong pulls off another frabjous negoshuashun.

When you’re flogging something that rare and so specialised the concern is that there may be only one buyer, who knows he’s the only likely buyer – such as, for example, an inscrutable Chinese corporate after “living space”.

The value then becomes what they are prepared to pay and not a zac more.

But when “someone from the government rang up and said: … ‘We are really interested.’ “ well, that’s a whole ‘nuther thing.

Mind you, I am bemused that Comrade Bob Carr-Kissinger’s mate Comrade Eddie Obeyed didn’t get onto it, secure a sexy little option to purchase and set up a neat settlement by direction.

Mick Gold Coast QLD

6 Feb 13 at 9:39 pm
“Senator Joyce: Would the Leader of the Government in the Senate stop interjecting—otherwise can we put the other bloke back?“

Podiumed and golded! I just lerv Barnaby.

Mick Gold Coast QLD

6 Feb 13 at 9:44 pm
The album for tonight is Ennio Morricone – Film Music 1966-1987.

Septimus

6 Feb 13 at 9:45 pm
Smart work from Joe Hockey in Question Time today. The Speaker welcomed Bob Hawke to the visitors’ gallery, leading Hockey to add his own welcome to ”the last Labor Prime Minister to deliver a surplus”.

Wyatt Roy then went and shook hands with Hawke, out of respect and maybe just to make sure a Labor leader who delivered a surplus was actually real and not a figment of his imagination.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 9:46 pm
anyone should be condemned for lying. However pound for pound Pharma are babes in the woods compared to the layabouts swine currently in climate science.

Irrelevant and unknowable, these types of issues are too hard to quantify. What is it with some people here who think that by pointing out the evils of some other that somehow excuses the evils in question. The law don’t work like that and I don’t think like that. Crooks are crooks. Don’t make excuses for any of them.

John

Why did it take so long for the contraceptive pill to have problems?

My understanding is the problems are not that great. Bodies are not like machines, bodies have multiple redundancies in processes so while damage is occurring it can take decades for symptoms to appear. Dementias are the obvious example. The claims of some to cure Dementia is, at this point in time, wishful thinking. A much more realistic goal is to identify prodromal markers in the 40-50 age range and intervene at that time point. Why? Because when symptoms appear various vicious cycles of degradation are in play and cannot be stopped without creating havoc elsewhere. Parkinsons is a good eg, a person can lose up to 80% of dopamine neurons in the SN before symptoms appear.

We will never have the certainty that people crave. There are now numerous studies pointing to possible risks with GM crops but it may take 50 years for that to become apparent. We can test all we like now but we can never know with comforting certainty because so many variables are in play. There are now even documented 2nd and later generation effects from various agents, including the BPA family. Do I worry about this? Not really, I’m more likely to die from excessive blogging than that crap.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 9:48 pm
On telling truth, see Theodore Dalrymple’s “Time Past” at New English Review.

Deadman

6 Feb 13 at 9:54 pm
everyone loves Barnaby, he connects with people like no other politician.

candy

6 Feb 13 at 9:56 pm
Barnaby is the only member of the Senate ( possibly the entire Government ) with accountancy as a prior occupation.

Just sayin.

jumpnmcar

6 Feb 13 at 9:58 pm
sorry mr moderator i’ve stuffed up my email address again it’s only me

candy

6 Feb 13 at 9:59 pm
When I say ” government ” I mean the whole shitfight, both sides of.

jumpnmcar

6 Feb 13 at 10:00 pm
Comrade Senator Mssssr Wong

It is K.D. Wong, get it right!

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 10:01 pm
Barnaby is the only member of the Senate ( possibly the entire Government ) with accountancy as a prior occupation.

And yet the media painted him as an incompetent fool for once accidentally saying billion instead of million (or something trivial like that, anyway – don’t recall specifics). It’s a crazy old world.

Fleeced

6 Feb 13 at 10:01 pm
And yet the media painted him as an incompetent fool for once accidentally saying billion instead of million (or something trivial like that, anyway – don’t recall specifics). It’s a crazy old world.

Swan blurted out once that the MRRT was going to be used to fund their zany 12% superannuation scheme.

It was on network TV for about a day and it got shitcanned.

.

6 Feb 13 at 10:09 pm
Barnaby is the only member of the Senate ( possibly the entire Government ) with accountancy as a prior occupation.

Barnaby Joyce FCPA*, no less.

* Fellow of the Australian Society of Certified Practising Accountants.

Septimus

6 Feb 13 at 10:09 pm
Joyce:

BFA (UNE), CPA, FCPA.
Farm worker 1989-91.
Accountant 1991-94.
Rural banker 1994-98.
Self-employed accountant 1998-2005.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:12 pm
Wong:

BA (Jurisprudence), LLB (Hons) (Adel), GradDip in Legal Practice (SA).
Industrial officer 1990-94.
Senior Policy Adviser to the Minister for Land and Conservation (NSW), the Hon. KM Yeadon 1995-96.
Barrister and solicitor 1996-1999.
Legal officer 1999-2002.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:14 pm
Barnaby isnt a fool but he may like a drink occasionally country style. I dont see that as a problem. He is more honest than a lot of politicians and cares about regional Australia.

Aliice

6 Feb 13 at 10:15 pm
I think Gillard has a Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Law and a Bachelor of Agriculture…

Fleeced

6 Feb 13 at 10:16 pm
Annoying how Labor espoused today in Question Time that Tony Abbott’s statement to reintroduce a superannuation tax for the lower class is going to effect 3.4million Australians yet the only way Julia Gillard has abolished that tax cut is by ‘revenue’ from the MRRT, which ultimately has not collected a cent. The Coalition should attack her on this point, because her superannuation tax is basically funded by debt which = future taxes.

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 10:17 pm
Gillard:

BA, LLB (Melb).
Solicitor 1987-95; (Partner 1990-95).
Chief of Staff to the Victorian Leader of the Opposition, J Brumby, MLA ~~1995~~1996-98.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:18 pm
Gab – cLassic Barnaby you posted above..
“Senator Faulkner says that I deny climate change. I do not deny climate change at all. I just deny that they have the capacity to change it back”

Aliice

6 Feb 13 at 10:19 pm
Swan:

BA(Hons) (Qld).
Lecturer, Queensland Institute of Technology 1976-77, 1981-82 and 1985-88.
Policy analyst, Office of Youth Affairs 1978.
Adviser to the Leader of the Opposition, the Hon. WG Hayden, MP 1978-80; Special Ministers of State, the Hon. MJ Young, MP and the Hon. KC Beazley, MP 1983; and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Hon. WG Hayden, MP 1984.
Party official (see Party positions above).
Adviser 1996-98.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:19 pm
I’m sure I could find a lot to disagree with Barnaby on, but I could say that about any of them… on balance, I like him. He’s good value – not half as dumb as he’s painted – and aside from some bad policy ideas that seem to go along with being a Nat, seems to be a no-nonsense type who has his head screwed on (mostly) right.

Fleeced

6 Feb 13 at 10:19 pm
Ooh… that last comment was #666. Spooky.

Fleeced

6 Feb 13 at 10:21 pm
Heh. I didn’t realise Abbott worked as a Plant Manager for Pioneer Concrete.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 10:22 pm
“Does it really make sense banning Craig Thomson from visiting hookers?”

yes – it maakes sense becuse I dont think he can afford them any more after visiting his lawyers. Wouldnt want an ex ALP welfare case on our hands with no ethics or scruples. Someone has to ban him from hookers. They wont want a non payer. Do the hookers a favour.

Aliice

6 Feb 13 at 10:25 pm
We are borrowing the money and we are reducing the size of the economic component that is supposed to pay it off.

That should be on the front of all election advertising. Perhaps even simpler. Borrowing but deliberately damaging ourselves so we can’t pay it back.

Tell that to those oldies worried about their grandkids futures.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 10:29 pm
I agree Lizzie. That oomment really nailed it.

Aliice

6 Feb 13 at 10:30 pm
comment sorry

Aliice

6 Feb 13 at 10:31 pm
Barnaby Joyce calls the ALP-Green-Independent alliance, “Glee Club”. ROFL!!!

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 10:36 pm
That Wong chap:

Labor hack “1990-94, 1995-96, 1999-2002.”

for 12 years from age 22.

Now, about this “Barrister and solicitor 1996-1999.” fable …

At 28 with zero experience she would not have done anything a barrister does (if she has in fact been admitted which I say is unlikely – or extraordinary if I’m wrong).

Even as a solicitor she would been plonked in a back office and given lots of paperwork to read for half a year or more, then allowed to sit in, silently, on meetings with clients.

For the remainder (of not a full three years) she’d have been the anonymous little assistant girlie passing the big books to the blokes sitting at the front table in court, and wheeling the trolley load back to the office at the end of each day.

She is not a “barrister and solicitor” one would consider ringing to act as one’s barrister or a solicitor!

Mick Gold Coast QLD

6 Feb 13 at 10:36 pm
Apologies if this is repetitive, but the headline in the OZ:

‘Thomson told to stay away from brothels’

is a candidate for a freedom quote?

Lazlo

6 Feb 13 at 10:38 pm
barnaby Joyce would be the most popular politician in Australia, he just connects with people naturally even Laborites like him

candy

6 Feb 13 at 10:45 pm
I think Gillard has a Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Law and a Bachelor of Agriculture…

Correction Fleeced.
The only Bachelor she has is the Bachelor of Hairdressing.
The others were all married at the time.

Leigh Lowe

6 Feb 13 at 10:53 pm
It is K.D. Wong, get it right!

Actually, it is k d wong.
A bad case of upper case ruins the effect.

Leigh Lowe

6 Feb 13 at 10:58 pm
Thomson’s lawyer said his arrest was crazy as he was the most accessible person in australia. Apparently his credit card is 100% proof of that!

pete m

6 Feb 13 at 10:59 pm
Wong actually refereed to fellow students as “comrade”. Talk about a caricature.

Good lord! Wong’s boyfriend was Jay Weatherill. Amazing.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:00 pm
LOL leigh (‘the others were all married at the time’ – pay that one!)

Aliice

6 Feb 13 at 11:01 pm
Emmo might be coming on this blog to post a comment soon to the “Economic Exaggeration” . Keep your eyes open!

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 11:04 pm
So Gillard didnt get the Bachelor of Greek Construction then?
The question is did any of her friends stay at Chez Perishers d’Obeids?

Aliice

6 Feb 13 at 11:05 pm
She is not a “barrister and solicitor” one would consider ringing to act as one’s barrister or a solicitor!

Yes it’s all a bit curious, Mick.

In South Australia all lawyers are qualified as both barristers and solicitors. Those who choose to work solely as barristers work in Chambers rather than in law firms. Like a Medical Specialist, the public do not come to them as their clients.

She was employed at Duncan and Hannon.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:07 pm
Does the Bachelor of Agriculture demonstrate Gillard’s affinity to produce manure in Question Time?

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 11:07 pm
Emmo might be coming on this blog to post a comment soon to the “Economic Exaggeration”

Oh good Lord, Andrew. Don’t we have enough trolls here already? Hopefully he’ll be kept in moderation.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:09 pm
Oh good Lord, Andrew. Don’t we have enough trolls here already? Hopefully he’ll be kept in moderation.

He is resisiting me now and the only tax he can name that the ALP cut was the tax free threshold. We are getting closer to Emmo admitting that his tax as a % of GDP is a fallacy.

This is what he just tweeted me.

trebled tax free threshold for starters. But you Libs deny that happened. So debate impossible.

All Emmo is doing is just beating around the bush because he can’t explain where taxes have been lowered under Labor other than that policy.

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 11:14 pm
Wong actually refereed to fellow students as “comrade”. Talk about a caricature.

When Gillard was a solicitor and nearly a partner in a law firm she still referred to fellow Socialist Forumites as “Comrade”.

Such thing is an obvious litmus test for automatic disqualification from politics for ever.

Grand inquisitor: “Since your 21st birthday have you ever referred to anybody as ‘Comrade’ in a non-ironic way?”
ALP Commie: “Yes back when I was 28 and lead organiser for the Socialist Forum I regularly did – I was a fully employed solicitor at the ti”
Grand inquisitor: “No need for any more words BAN HAMMER ENGAGED”

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 11:16 pm
barnaby Joyce would be the most popular politician in Australia, he just connects with people naturally even Laborites like him

True, Candy. And on the female side, Amanda Vanstone is very well liked too right across both sides of politics, by both men and women. There’s not a Labor woman (lol the hideous handbag hit squad) to hold a candle to her. For straight talking at the BBQ no Liberal female pollie has Vanstone’s appeal either. Pity she’s not in there any more, just called in as a supporter these days.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 11:18 pm
I am soooo tired. Must haul myself to bed. HIA is home and that is lovely. Hope he doesn’t snore though. It was good last night in that regard. Niall Ferguson didn’t make a peep all night.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

6 Feb 13 at 11:20 pm
” Those who choose to work solely as barristers work in Chambers rather than in law firms. Like a Medical Specialist, the public do not come to them as their clients.

She was employed at Duncan and Hannon.”

That last sentence took my eye too Gabrielle. There is no way she could set up in chambers at 28 or 29 – high cost, no income – and solicitors simply could not recommend engaging her with zero experience.

In all my years I came across a barrister working within a legal practice only twice I think, both senior partners in the Big 3 or 4 ready to be pensioned off who occasionally wrote opinions and did not appear in court actions.

I suspect she majored in Inventive Résumé Writing like most of the Labor wymminses.

Mick Gold Coast QLD

6 Feb 13 at 11:20 pm
trebled tax free threshold for starters

Yes well I believe Sinclair has already opened the curtains and let the sun shine on Emerson’s little treble tax threshold tale.

http://catallaxyfiles.com/2013/02/02/emmo-being-a-bit-too-clever-i/

Mind you, I applaud you for taking him on, Andrew. Hopefully you don’t spend too much time with the old so and so.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:21 pm
Niall Ferguson didn’t make a peep all night.

LOL.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:22 pm
‘Thomson told to stay away from brothels’

Told by the prostitutes, they are sick to death of having their reputations tarnished by association.

John H.

6 Feb 13 at 11:25 pm
Yes I’m finding it extremely difficult to believe she was a barrister, Mick. Perhaps she worked for one.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:26 pm
All Emmo is doing is just beating around the bush because he can’t explain where taxes have been lowered under Labor other than that policy.

Tell him to dance like a monkey!

Oh, that’s right Gillard already did that.

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 11:26 pm
Larry Pickering reports on the Labor’s Gen Next best and britest-est girlie:

“Nova Peris

• was not a member of the ALP

• has lived in Canberra for 15 years

• previously stated that she would like to get into politics in the NT (hoping someone would ask her) but both major parties ignored her

• did not know who the father of her first daughter was

• married the bloke who drew the short straw

• was known as greased lightning, but not for her sporting prowess

• was evicted by Cathy Freeman for trashing the house she had generously loaned her

• was picked up drunk in Darwin mall, having a punch-up with her then husband

• didn’t turn up for a celebrity race the next day as she had a black eye

• was very unsportsmanlike towards team mates in the Kuala Lumpur Commonwealth Games

• posed for a nude calendar

• sponsors Telstra and Novotel withdrew their sponsorships

• took fellow hockey team members on a fishing trip to Bathurst Island (Charters, exclusive lodge accommodation) and charged it to the NT Government

• great expectations of living off the public purse”

That’s what Larry’s report sez …

Mick Gold Coast QLD

6 Feb 13 at 11:27 pm
Told by the prostitutes, they are sick to death of having their reputations tarnished by association.

Do you reckon when Fiona Patton said “if the public knew how many high and mighty used the services of sex workers” or something to that effect it was a backhand against Thomson and the NSW right – which would be allied to Victorian right leader Conroy, the man with the porn filter and red underpants on his head and a confected moral crusade?

.

6 Feb 13 at 11:30 pm
Nice to see the workers’ friend, Brother Hawke, down from his harbour-side mansion to move among the people. You can always tell when the circus needs a break from the clowns, they roll out the props.

H B Bear

6 Feb 13 at 11:30 pm
But you Libs deny that happened. So debate impossible.

Heh. He may as well have said: You’re right, Andrew.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:36 pm
Yes well I believe Sinclair has already opened the curtains and let the sun shine on Emerson’s little treble tax threshold tale.

http://catallaxyfiles.com/2013/02/02/emmo-being-a-bit-too-clever-i/

Mind you, I applaud you for taking him on, Andrew. Hopefully you don’t spend too much time with the old so and so.

Yes, Sinclair has also opened the curtains today on the tax as a % of GDP argument in the “Economic Exaggeration” blog page. Emmo and Andrew Leigh continually espouse the incorrect argument. I already understood that argument, but Labor MP’s who are far more qualified than I seem to not understand it or simply ignore the idea.

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 11:36 pm
It’s interesting the things one finds when trawling through Hansard for the years 1996 to 2007, Andrew, using a specific search just to see what the then Labor opposition said. It really brings into focus the depths of their hypocrisy.

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:41 pm
Heh. He may as well have said: You’re right, Andrew.

Yeah, I basically said that he couldn’t name any other taxes.

Andrew

6 Feb 13 at 11:43 pm
Hey Gab

Recall when you doubted me?

Finally, regarding the Yen and especially regarding the weak Yen’s effect upon corporate Japan, we note that Toyota has raised its fiscal year profit forecast to nearly three times what it had made the year previous, as sales are surging, especially here in the US. Toyota’s October-December profit rose 23% year-on year to ¥99.91 billion while quarterly sales rose 9% to ¥5.3 trillion. Toyota’s management said that the company now expects fiscal year profits to be ¥860 billion and it had previously expected them to be ¥780 billion, with much of that increase directly attributable to the weak and weakening
Yen for according to the company it had gained ¥50
billion yen in operating income in October-December
from the weak yen… and it had only begun to weaken at
the time. It has fallen much more sharply since. Clearly

JC

6 Feb 13 at 11:46 pm
Today

Honda Motors:

3,580.00
+115.00 (3.32%)

JC

6 Feb 13 at 11:47 pm
Yes, JC. I also said “but what would I know” and then a few days later made mention here that you were, as usual, correct.

Hope you made a motza!

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:49 pm
Japan is doing fine for me and so are the US banks.

It’s really dull and boring though as I have nothing much to do except sit it out and hold.

JC

6 Feb 13 at 11:52 pm
So you’re going to hold onto Honda for how long?

Gab

6 Feb 13 at 11:53 pm
Do you reckon when Fiona Patton said “if the public knew how many high and mighty used the services of sex workers”

Apparently the sex industry in the ACT is built around the political class, closely followed by ADFA cadets. Or so the story goes.

John Mc

6 Feb 13 at 11:54 pm
By the way anyone seen those two imbeciles… Stepford and Monster?

Boy are they like a bad smell around here. What a couple of morons.

I wonder what that idiot stepford thinks about James Annan shifting into the moderate warming camp and stating publicly that the observational data no longer supports the models.

Stepford?? I know you’re reading this so don;t even pretend…Well?

JC

6 Feb 13 at 11:55 pm
Andrew has he called you a “filthy young lib” yet? You’re nothing on twitter until you’ve been abused or abused then blocked by crazy old uncle Emmo.

twostix

6 Feb 13 at 11:57 pm
Gab

I’ll hold Honda and the Nikkei index for a while or until something goes the way I don’t like.

JC

6 Feb 13 at 11:57 pm
Bachelor of Agriculture

Been plowed many a time but never germinated a seed.

Splatacrobat

7 Feb 13 at 12:00 am
Hey Stix

I gave the moron a hard time once calling him the leg over man in reference bonking the slap and he never blocked moi.

I think I embarrassed him about referring to “filthy young libs” I suggested that a minister of the nation shouldn’t be using such terms to refer to members of the public. He denied it of course, which elicited a typical Catallaxy reply…”Bullshit”

JC

7 Feb 13 at 12:01 am
JC

How is the war on Emmo going?

What’s your twitter handle? I can’t remember it and I didn’t want to read everything Emmerson said.

.

7 Feb 13 at 12:02 am
Been plowed many a time but never germinated a seed.

Pickering reckons she had one hoovered. I wonder where that loon got that story.

JC

7 Feb 13 at 12:02 am
Dot

I basically stopped a long while ago and haven’t been there since. I found it boring. There are far too many moronic swine on that site.

I think it’s JC from memory.

JC

7 Feb 13 at 12:04 am
Hey Dot

Birdie has gone fully retarded anti-Semite. There’s references to the Protocols and all.

This is like full monty and he’s leaving no stone unturned looking for a Jewish conspiracy.

JC

7 Feb 13 at 12:06 am
That poor prick.

.

7 Feb 13 at 12:07 am
Greatest blog on the net:

http://graemebirdforum.wordpress.com/

.

7 Feb 13 at 12:08 am
You’re nothing on twitter until you’ve been abused or abused then blocked by crazy old uncle Emmo.

He blocked me over a year ago , which was weird because I don’t think I’d ever had any convos with him and only found out I was blocked when I went to search something and was told “you are not authorized to do this – user has blocked you” or some such.

I went back and did a search of all of my tweets going back to Day 1, and I’d only mentioned his twitter handle a handful of times, and never directly addressed him. And nothing rude or harassing. Weird, ay. So now I’m not allowed to see the tweets of an elected representative whose salary I’m paying.

“MOST OPEN & TRANSPARENT GOVERNMENT EVAH!”

sdog

7 Feb 13 at 12:08 am
I gave the moron a hard time once calling him the leg over man in reference bonking the slap and he never blocked moi.

Ahh the mysteries of early onset dementia.

twostix

7 Feb 13 at 12:08 am
Some of Bird’s greatest hits:

“The Germans may have kicked off the war. But they were also magnanimous enough to call it off unconditionally. ”

“So you see these fucking grasshoppers eat the DDT in this story. And this fucking frog eats this motherload of DDT which is eternal. At least if you soak it in fat. And then the fucking trout comes along and he cannot stop eating frogs, complete cunt that he is. Frogs minding his own business and the trout just comes up and eats him like he has nothing better to do.”

Hang the Trout!

.

7 Feb 13 at 12:12 am
Some of Bird’s greatest hits:

“The Germans may have kicked off the war. But they were also magnanimous enough to call it off unconditionally. ”

“So you see these fucking grasshoppers eat the DDT in this story. And this fucking frog eats this motherload of DDT which is eternal. At least if you soak it in fat. And then the fucking trout comes along and he cannot stop eating frogs, complete c*nt that he is. Frogs minding his own business and the trout just comes up and eats him like he has nothing better to do.”

Hang the Trout!

.

7 Feb 13 at 12:14 am
He blocked me over a year ago , which was weird because I don’t think I’d ever had any convos with him and only found out I was blocked when I went to search something and was told “you are not authorized to do this – user has blocked you” or some such.

One of the first tweets I ever made on Twitter was a reply to him in #auspol and my account was reported for abuse and suspended. This was the tweet:

“LOL Abbott, who has the Libs on a 12 point lead is ‘on his last legs’ #delusional”

Oh and that was back in May that Emmerson was sure Abbott “was on his last legs”. What an embarrassing clown.

twostix

7 Feb 13 at 12:24 am
The next day, Ms Crossin was sent a draft press release by the Prime Minister’s chief of staff Ben Hubbard which included a line from Senator Crossin endorsing Ms Peris as her replacement, despite her telling the Prime Minister she would not do so. Senator Crossin instructed the Prime Minister’s office to remove the line from the official press release because it was a lie.

A story you won’t hear on our ABC.

nic

7 Feb 13 at 12:42 am
The government kleptocracy will go feral today after details of Abbott’s Northern Australian vision thing are leaked:

TONY Abbott will take to the election a radical plan to reshape Australia by splitting it into different personal tax zones and forcibly shifting tens of thousands of jobs to the Top End.

The secret draft economic policy document, entitled Vision 2030, also proposes to carve $800 million from the foreign aid budget to be diverted to a mega-project in northern Australia.

In an embarrassing high-level leak to The Daily Telegraph, the 30-page document outlines plans for the mass migration of public service workers to north of the Tropic of Capricorn to Karratha, about 1500km north of Perth, Darwin and Cairns.

While not specifying which southern state capital cities would be targeted for relocation of government departments, western Sydney would be expected to be a major source of the new northern workforce, with 22,000 public sector jobs in the region alone.

Personal income tax incentives are also proposed to lure private sector workers north of the border, while major defence facilities would also be relocated.

The draft policy has been circulated among senior levels of the Coalition and was sent to state and territory premiers three weeks ago.

It qualifies the document by claiming it is not “definitive or comprehensive” but seeks input from the states.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 12:43 am
”
In an embarrassing high-level leak to The Daily Telegraph”

Turnbull?

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 12:47 am
$800 million from the foreign aid budget to be diverted to a mega-project in northern Australia.

For something like “A Solution for Refugees & Asylum-Seekers: a Free City”?

Deadman

7 Feb 13 at 12:48 am
In an embarrassing high-level leak to The Daily Telegraph, the 30-page document outlines plans for the mass migration of public service workers to north of the Tropic of Capricorn to Karratha, about 1500km north of Perth, Darwin and Cairns.

I told Tony to drop these bastards in the desert. I’m not sure he understood my point.

Infidel tiger

7 Feb 13 at 12:55 am
Further to Nick’s mention, Trish Crossin reveals her execution was all about’s Gillard’s vanity:

Ms Crossin, who will be awarded a taxpayer-funded pension for life when she leaves politics at the next election, has confirmed she asked Julia Gillard for an appointment to a board or an ambassadorship on learning she would be dumped, a suggestion angrily rebuffed by the Prime Minister.

Accusing the Prime Minister’s office of asking her to sign off on a press release that falsely claimed she backed the installation of Olympian Nova Peris as her replacement, Ms Crossin also said Ms Gillard had conceded she would win a rank-and-file ballot.

However, she said Ms Gillard insisted her “legacy” as Labor leader must include installing an Aboriginal woman in the Senate.

Supporters of Kevin Rudd’s return to the leadership are using the story of Ms Crossin’s political execution to try to push Gillard supporters to switch camps this week amid claims Mr Rudd is closing the 71:31 gap at the last leadership ballot to just a handful of votes.

Admitting she had nothing left to lose, Ms Crossin said her treatment should prompt MPs to think long and hard about Ms Gillard’s judgment. “I do think people are now seriously questioning how she might behave in the future,” she said.

“She can’t do anything else to me now. People have said to me, ‘I could be next. What if I am next?’ Of course, it was unfair dismissal.”

I don’t care how it happens; I must want Gillard’s career to be ended in the most publicly himiliating fashion possible. What a venal, mendacious trollop.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 12:56 am
Of course, it was unfair dismissal

Then tottle along to FWA, deary. Pfft.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 1:01 am
I told Tony to drop these bastards in the desert. I’m not sure he understood my point.

I told him to carve up NSW and look how that went – he’s carving up the never never instead. Dude needs to get his ears checked.

twostix

7 Feb 13 at 1:06 am
The only way you would get Federal public servants to Karratha is with zip ties and a flat bed truck. There is a reason you have to pay people $150k+ a year to work there.

It would be easier to relocate them to the Multi-Function Polis in South Australia.

H B Bear

7 Feb 13 at 1:09 am
Ms Crossin […] asked Julia Gillard for an appointment to a board or an ambassadorship [...].

So, would the senator be as peeved as she is now if the PM have provided a huge bribe courtesy of the taxpayer?
She who comes into equity must come with clean hands but, though Sen. Crossin is by no means as corrupt as the PM, it might seem that her manus aren’t completely mundae.

Deadman

7 Feb 13 at 1:12 am
The only way you would get Federal public servants to Karratha is with zip ties and a flat bed truck. There is a reason you have to pay people $150k+ a year to work there.

So it’d be pretty much the same situation as now and getting people to go to Canberra?

twostix

7 Feb 13 at 1:13 am
The Daily Telegraph also received that leaked email re Abbott’s speech.

I have no doubt it’s Turnbull.

He has a history of leaking – and email leaking.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 1:14 am
TONY Abbott will take to the election a radical plan

Simon Benson seems sure he knows what Abbott will do…but then

It qualifies the document by claiming it is not “definitive or comprehensive” but seeks input from the states.

So he’s not entitled to come up with ideas and seek input? Sometimes silly ideas bubble up better ones that have little or nothing to do with the original idea. This used to be known as brainstorming. Still, there is definitely someone within the Libs that wants to see Abbott gone before the election. That sounds like Turnbull, imo.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 1:19 am
Is Abbott’s internal position still so weak he can’t have Turnbull shafted? The prick has a bigger ego than Rudd and his primary popularity is with people who will never vote for the Coalition.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 1:25 am
Personal income tax incentives are also proposed to lure private sector workers north of the border, while major defence facilities would also be relocated.

I think it’s a great idea and I’d go if they’d halve the tax rate in the zone.

twostix

7 Feb 13 at 1:26 am
Is Abbott’s internal position still so weak he can’t have Turnbull shafted? The prick has a bigger ego than Rudd and his primary popularity is with people who will never vote for the Coalition.

Abbott seems to be all about presenting a united, no hassle liberal front to contrast with the current eternal ALP soap opera.

Turnbulls days will be numbered after the election I’d say – nobody will care about him then.

twostix

7 Feb 13 at 1:29 am
Actually having a quick flick through the “troppo” plan, as Simon Benson calls it, it doesn’t seems so bad for most of it.

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/02/06/1226572/178934-tony-abbott-troppo-plan.pdf

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 1:31 am
All you need to know about the world and its difficulties vis-a-vis Christianity is this: the largest charity on earth is the Catholic Church.

Greenpeace would probably get a lot more donations too if they forced your ancestors to join at the point of a sword and burned alive the ones who refused.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 1:38 am
No, people converted to Christianity originally because the old pagans were a bunch of clueless yokels. In fact, the very word ‘pagan’ was derogatory erstwhile slang for yokel. You can read all about how Christians won the cities of the ancient world and established things like hospitals in Peter Brown’s magnificent histories.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 1:49 am
Actually having a quick flick through the “troppo” plan, as Simon Benson calls it, it doesn’t seems so bad for most of it.

I’ve been hearing scuttlebutt for months now from old Canberra contacts in Human Services that there’s fears all over that Abbott’s going to gut the place and send jobs around the countryside. In fact someone told me that “who knows what will happen to the local market if Tony Abbott gets in” was just used as an excuse by their agent to try and get them to drop the price of their house so it’s a “fear” (well founded hopefully) that’s around a bit.

The problem is they think they’re going to end up (hold on!) all the way out at Wagga. Little do they know Termintator Abbott is planning to send them all to the Australian version of Siberia – hopefully starting with the AFP who didn’t investigate Gillards race riot against him, followed closely by FWA where they are then forced to shut down the department. Then the dept of Climate Change to a building with no aircon somewhere north of Mackay.

twostix

7 Feb 13 at 1:50 am
Actually having a quick flick through the “troppo” plan, as Simon Benson calls it, it doesn’t seems so bad for most of it.

It actually avoids some of the more idiotic and unachievable pipe dreams that have been put forward for northern Australia in the past 50 years. Because it involves politicians and bureaucracies over four different jurisdictions, of course it will feature occasional bouts of mud wrestling and progress will ebb and flow according to who’s in power. The biggest fight will be with the ecofascists, who are already three-quarters of the way towards making any type of infrastructure project impossible through bureaucratic strangulation. Sooner or later, this confrontation needs to be had: the green lobby’s ability to veto vital economic projects has to be smashed.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 1:53 am
Abbott’s plan will certainly sell well in the electorate.

Australia hates Canberra.

The idea that they should move to where action is needed rhymes with the times.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 1:53 am
No, people converted to Christianity originally because the old pagans were a bunch of clueless yokels. In fact, the very word ‘pagan’ was derogatory erstwhile slang for yokel.

CL, denying history yet again.

The Scandinavians and the Saxons (our most direct ancestors) were converted to Christianity by force, and the ones who refused were purged.

If you are going to have a serious discussion about the goodness of the Catholic Church, you need to at least acknowledge historical facts.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 2:04 am
Now watch as some of the suggestions in the Draft Paper surface as “ideas” proposed by Labor in the coming months.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 2:05 am
Bingo, Gab. That was the whole idea of the September 14 circus.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 2:10 am
What’s the point of voting for the Libs if we can deliver this/these projects? Plus Free Stuff™ (paid for with borrowed money). Except no-one will believe them. All aboard the karma bus.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 2:16 am
It occurred to me,Tom when pondering the early announcement, that Labor and the lovemedia will put pressure on Abbott to release detailed policies early so that they can

1) ridicule and carry on with the Abbott not fit for PM meme
2) and swipe policies, titty-fart around with them a bit, re-badge them and call them their own as they did in 2007.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 2:19 am
The killer truth, which Abbott simply has to keep repeating (preferably with a smile on his face and in his voice) is: You just can’t trust these pricks with money. 72% increase in government spending. $262 billion in government debt. They’re bankrupting the country and killing the economy.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 2:27 am
$1500 per Australian household per year just to pay the interest on the debt they’ve accumulated in the past five years. The bottom line is taxes will have to rise.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 2:32 am
Yobbo, you’re a halfwit. The Saxons in Germany were forcibly converted by Charlemagne, but the Saxons in England and the Vikings in Scandinavia all converted voluntarily. If not, please tell me what mysterious power was able to forcibly convert the Vikings when they were the scariest power in Europe?

squawkbox

7 Feb 13 at 2:52 am
It’s wrong to say that the Vikings and the rest of Scandinavia converted voluntarily.

A few Scandinavian chiefs and kings did convert voluntarily (and when I say voluntarily, I mean they were given a choice between conversion and war, and chose conversion), and they then attempted to impose their beliefs on the rest when they got back to Scandinavia.

The result was 200-300 years of religious civil war that eventually resulted in victory for the Christians, except in Lapland, which did not convert until the 1800s.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 3:32 am
It’s also wrong to say that the Vikings were the “Scariest Power” in Europe.

The Holy Roman empire led by Charlemagne was the pre-eminent power in Europe around 800 AD, and it was he who introduced Christianity to Scandinavia.

There is a reason that the Vikings were successful in England but only dared turn up in places far away from Charlemagne, like Russia and Slovakia.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 3:41 am
At least some Christians are willing to accept the fact that their religion was spread by force.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 3:49 am
Scandanavia was converted by force.

Harald Bluetooth had started a war in alliance with rebels in the Holy Roman Empire, but was defeated. He converted to Christianity as a term of peace.

This peace agreement brought considerable trade advantages to his kingdom, and the wealth generated from trade allowed him to expand his kingdom northward, expansion his Christian heirs continued.

2dogs

7 Feb 13 at 4:38 am
“Does it really make sense banning Craig Thomson from visiting hookers?”

It’s likely that some sex workers will be called to give evidence not in the interests of the defendant. If so, it makes sense to ban the defendant from seeking to contact possible witnesses.

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 4:53 am
Yobbo, your last link would make for enlightening reading around these parts! Very interesting.

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 6:45 am
This issue, more than any other we’ve published, raises the awkward matter of forced conversions—”Be Christian or die.” There’s no sense in pretending this was an exceptional missionary tactic; for many centuries, it was the method of choice among Christian rulers and missionaries. The conversion of much of Europe and of Latin America is unimaginable without the sword.

It is not a pleasant aspect of our heritage, but one that nonetheless teaches us a great deal about human nature and what, in fact, solidifies Christian faith.

To explore this topic, Christian History spoke with Richard Fletcher, history professor at the University of York, England. Professor Fletcher has spent a lot of time researching medieval Europe, the era when forced conversions were the rule, and his The Barbarian Conversion: From Paganism to Christianity (Henry Holt, 1997) is one of the splendid results.

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 6:46 am
For those who think we’re living in a free country (ya, nobody here), Geert won’t be talking in Sydney.

I’m too angry to think at the moment, and have to head out the door, but consider this:
An elected politician who has done nothing but speak persistently and consistently against islam is so terrifying that nobody with any sort of authority wants him here.

Why?

He’s never killed anybody, never been found guilty of bashing anybody or doing other than using strong language.

So words can kill, I guess.

After yesterday’s assassination attempt on Lars Hedegaard, I wonder how long it will take before Geert’s security slips up and the Dutch have themselves another martyr on the altar of Free Speech.

nilk

7 Feb 13 at 7:22 am
From My Cold Dead Hands…
A Sandy Hook father whose report you won’t see on 3 monkey media. (video ~3mins)

Rudiau

7 Feb 13 at 7:27 am
From nilk’s link.

It was not her only setback. ”Yesterday PayPal froze the funds in the account that is processing ticket sales. They will not tell me why. All staff keep saying is the account is under review. It’s been like an Orwellian nightmare.”

This follows a refusal by Westpac to allow her to set up a payment system and refusal by more than a dozen venues to host a Wilders event, citing security concerns.

FMD.

Rudiau

7 Feb 13 at 7:35 am
Rudiau you have no idea. It’s insane. I keep thinking of Barry O and his mispronunciation of ‘corpsman’. I guess when we’re talking of the ‘ANZAC spirit’ we can pronounce the last word the same way.

I am beyond ashamed. What a pack of jellybacked, whining sooks. Afraid of one man and his words.

Well, actually, afraid of the potential for the ummah unleashed, which is even worse.

It just shows how far we’ve fallen, and can no longer scoff about the UK or Europe.

nilk

7 Feb 13 at 7:45 am
nilk
Have just tweeted this shame on #auspol and #ozcot.

Rudiau

7 Feb 13 at 7:56 am
Thanks, Rudiau. I was working on a blogpost about Wilders called ‘The Last Free Man In Captivity’, but have been so busy that I’ve not finalised it.

I know what I’m doing tonight.

nilk

7 Feb 13 at 7:59 am
nilk
Love the title.

Rudiau

7 Feb 13 at 8:04 am
Bolt juxtaposes.
Gillards borrowed v Abbotts own.

Rudiau

7 Feb 13 at 8:08 am
I’m surprised Bolt hasn’t reported on Geert Wilders.
He was/is a big fan of the man.

Rudiau

7 Feb 13 at 8:11 am
I see the man with the burning hatred of Christians was at it yet again last night.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 8:12 am
At least some Christians are willing to accept the fact that their religion was spread by force.

What a silly absolute statement.

Of course in some circumstances it was spread by force. Every Christian knows that.

Do we need to dig up some articles on the way athiesm was/is forced upon people via violence in Left Wing Totalitarian countries to stop this absolute holier than thou attitude of athiests?

Token

7 Feb 13 at 8:39 am
A burrning hatred. Greenies. Not me. Love Burning. Starting with whaleoil and then coal then greenies in that order

WhaleHunt Fun

7 Feb 13 at 8:40 am
nilk,

That news about Wilders is just absolutely infuriating.

Chalk up another victory for islamic stupidity, bigotry and violence.

Rabz

7 Feb 13 at 8:40 am
More on free speech.

This will not do. It will not do at all. Instead, the United States should go on the offensive and demand that blasphemy be legalized in every country on earth.

It’s all Salman Rushdie’s fault.

Rudiau

7 Feb 13 at 8:42 am
At least some Christians are willing to accept the fact that their religion was spread by force.

But we do accept that it was in some cases spread by force, and as Alcuin in his letters to Charlemagne counselled, we believed this was and is contrary to the Gospels. We also recognize that the Germanic invasions of the fifth century destroyed existing centres of Christian culture on the Continent that had to be re-Christianized through the establishment of monastries, bishoprics, and schools by monks from Ireland. And, again, we recognize that the Saxons drove Christians out of England during the end of the fourth century. And we also recognize that England was re-Christianized by missions sent by Rome that returned in the centuries following lead by men like Augustine of Canterbury that patiently and over a number of generations re-established the necessary institutions and acting here and there in concert with local Saxon kings converted the pagan Saxon. and In other words, we have a complex historical picture that resists the sort of caricatures you’re presenting.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 8:47 am
As Larry Pickering says:

Her (Gillard’s) elevation of Novis Peris at the expense of Crossin is just another thought bubble in the bath and designed to combat Abbott’s history of charitable work within Aboriginal communities.

Now Nikki Savva reports:

Gillard did consult Northern Territory MP Warren Snowdon days before booting long-term senator Trish Crossin for Peris. He objected, was ignored, then stayed quiet rather than tell his colleagues so they could help scuttle it. Now he is worried about losing his seat, especially as Labor insiders fear more damaging stories will emerge about Peris and predict it will end, as it began for her, in tears.

…which refers to unverified, but highly credible accounts of Peris’s poor behaviour like this.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 9:10 am
Tom, from Smithy
Her Royal Smugness
“A self satisfied stretch after the rush of ruining someone’s career.”

Rudiau

7 Feb 13 at 9:26 am
Abbott was on breakfast media this morning hosing down his northern Australia vision thing, with speculation that Turnbull is leaking to try to damage him. Former Darwin resident Bolt is a supporter of the idea, but only if the envirofascist economy killers are taken on.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 9:29 am
No, people converted to Christianity originally because the old pagans were a bunch of clueless yokels. In fact, the very word ‘pagan’ was derogatory erstwhile slang for yokel. You can read all about how Christians won the cities of the ancient world and established things like hospitals in Peter Brown’s magnificent histories.

I’m with Yobbo.

Why did the Charlemagne have a right to not only rule over the Eastern Franks but the rest of Germany including the Saxons and Wends?

.

7 Feb 13 at 9:36 am
We also recognize that the Germanic invasions of the fifth century destroyed existing centres of Christian culture on the Continent that had to be re-Christianized through the establishment of monastries, bishoprics, and schools by monks from Ireland.

…and that justifies invading land that the late Christian Roman Empire never subjugated?

Soon you’ll be defending the bulls that backed the Norman invasion, Lordship of Ireland and electorships of the middle to late Holy Roman Empire.

Bloody hell pick your battles guys.

.

7 Feb 13 at 9:40 am
There is a reason that the Vikings were successful in England but only dared turn up in places far away from Charlemagne, like Russia and Slovakia.

What was it?

It also depends at what time you are referring to. There were so many changes over hundreds of years.

.

7 Feb 13 at 9:45 am
Why did the Charlemagne have a right to not only rule over the Eastern Franks but the rest of Germany including the Saxons and Wends?

Right is a silly word, even today. People only have what they allowed by others, or take by main force.

DriftForge

7 Feb 13 at 9:47 am
…and that justifies invading land that the late Christian Roman Empire never subjugated?

dot, in your excited state, you must have missed the following:

But we do accept that it was in some cases spread by force, and as Alcuin in his letters to Charlemagne counselled, we believed this was and is contrary to the Gospels.

Why did the Charlemagne have a right to not only rule over the Eastern Franks but the rest of Germany including the Saxons and Wends?

Good question. And by what right where the Saxons in Britain in the fourth century? This idea that the Saxons and Vikings were innocently going about their lawful business only to be cruelly molested by Christians is just absurd.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 10:02 am
“This idea that the Saxons and Vikings were innocently going about their lawful business only to be cruelly molested by Christians is just absurd.”

The Saxons were, in Germany at least.

.

7 Feb 13 at 10:07 am
On ABCNews24, Emerson gets a free kick against the Opposition, opining that Tony Abbott has no interest in policy, but no Opposition MP has a say. Lyndal Curtis does her usual inept job of epitomising.
Ho hum.

Deadman

7 Feb 13 at 10:10 am
845 AD: Ragnarr Loðbrók attacks and captures Paris with a fleet of 120 ships. Now that is staying away from the Franks. Later, of course, the northmen took what is now called Normandy; that’s really keeping well away from the Franks

Deadman

7 Feb 13 at 10:18 am
Is Abbott’s internal position still so weak he can’t have Turnbull shafted? The prick has a bigger ego than Rudd and his primary popularity is with people who will never vote for the Coalition.

His cabinet is largely filled with ‘moderates’. J Bishop, Pyne, Turnbull, Macfarlane, Hockey, Hunt and Brandis. Dutton is a tricky one to say where he stands. Kevin Andrews is in there although he is not the best performing minister. Scott Morrison is in the middle of the two factions, although I think he is more aligned with the conservatives.

Andrew

7 Feb 13 at 10:34 am
dot: “I’m with Yobbo.”

Of course he is.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 10:35 am
I forgot Mirabella, who is aligned with the conservatives.

Andrew

7 Feb 13 at 10:35 am
I want Morrison to be PM after Abbott

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 10:36 am
”Yesterday PayPal froze the funds in the account that is processing ticket sales. They will not tell me why. All staff keep saying is the account is under review. It’s been like an Orwellian nightmare.”

Isn’t PayPal owned by a supposed libertarian? What madness is this?

Infidel Tiger

7 Feb 13 at 10:39 am
Isn’t PayPal owned by a supposed libertarian? What madness is this?

Standard operating procedure for Paypal.

DriftForge

7 Feb 13 at 10:45 am
Bit ahead of yourself there JamesK. Don’t wish your life away …

candy

7 Feb 13 at 10:47 am
Bit ahead of yourself there JamesK. Don’t wish your life away …

And then Kelly O’Dwyer

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 10:51 am
James

If you have anything worthwhile to say, please comment…otherwise, crawl back up your arse the way you came out, head first please.

.

7 Feb 13 at 10:52 am
James

If you have anything worthwhile to say, please comment…otherwise, crawl back up your arse the way you came out, head first please.

Stop pretending to be intelligent dot.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 10:53 am
The leaked Abbott email about northern Australia must be really damaging – Fairfax are ignoring it.

I think we can safely assume Abbott’s camp leaked it deliberately.

Infidel Tiger

7 Feb 13 at 10:55 am
His [Abbott's] cabinet is largely filled with ‘moderates’.

As has been said previously it is hard to pick out a “dry” or small “l” liberal amongst them. Mathias Corman seems promising, although in the Senate. Kelly O’Dwyer will hopefully inherit some of Costello’s thinking in Higgins. Amongst the senior members and Shadow Ministers a continuation of Howard’s big spending conservatism seems to be an odds on bet.

H B Bear

7 Feb 13 at 10:55 am
What a silly absolute statement.

Of course in some circumstances it was spread by force. Every Christian knows that.

I refer you to CL’s claim a few hours ago that the Saxons and Scandinavians converted not because they were forced to, but because they were stupid yokels who would presumably believe anything.

The truth is that both groups fought for centuries to retain their old religions, but were eventually forcefully pacified and converted.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 10:56 am
The truth is that both groups fought for centuries to retain their old religions, but were eventually forcefully pacified and converted.

I pray one day we can do the same again to Europe.

Infidel Tiger

7 Feb 13 at 10:58 am
Stop pretending to be intelligent dot.

You have no argument. You are incapable of arguing anything.

C.L called the history of the spread of Christianity glorious.

No. It is a mixed bag.

.

7 Feb 13 at 10:58 am
What’s even more pathetic is that hunt, a mad warmy, retains his influence. He must be sidelined after the election (or preferably before).

Is there any way of ensuring that turnbull announces his ‘retirement’ before the election? He really is a liability.

Rabz

7 Feb 13 at 11:00 am
Still waiting on DB to tell us why the Saxons, Wends, Sorbs and Bavarians ‘deserved’ to be invaded and forcibly converted as he implied – as well as being at the same time “regrettably” converted.

.

7 Feb 13 at 11:06 am
Still waiting on DB to tell us why the Saxons, Wends, Sorbs and Bavarians ‘deserved’ to be invaded and forcibly converted

It made their lives immeasurably better. They will be eternally grateful.

Infidel Tiger

7 Feb 13 at 11:09 am
Is there any way of ensuring that turnbull announces his ‘retirement’ before the election? He really is a liability.

Atually, scratch that. It may make him even more of liability…

Rabz

7 Feb 13 at 11:10 am
Damn shame about The Conversion in Scandinavia. People really did enjoy those human sacrifices and then those darn Christians came along. Christianity is a kill-joy.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 11:12 am
How many people do you think Charlemagne killed to create his Empire and stroke his own ego, Gab?

.

7 Feb 13 at 11:13 am
Japanese Roxons call for replica Michelangelo’s David to be provided with undies.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 11:14 am
Still waiting on DB to tell us why…

Who’s “us” dottie?

You and the even more irrationally hate-filled Yobbo?

That both of you indignantly feign thoughfulness after being widely criticised for your evident bigotry is amusing but tiresome in the repetition.

How many people do you think Charlemagne killed to create his Empire and stroke his own ego, Gab?

Why doncha just fuck off you inanely ignorant little tosser?

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 11:15 am
Fairfax lines up the usual Green left mouth-breathers to attack AbbottAbbottAbbott’s north Australia policy paper:

Assistant Treasurer David Bradbury told Sky News the Coalition’s northern plan would be ”hundreds of billions of dollars of white elephant infrastructure”.

Mr Bradbury, who represents Lindsay, a western Sydney seat Labor holds by only 1.1 per cent, said Mr Abbott’s idea would result in ”gold plated footpaths in Karratha while people are stuck in traffic gridlock in Sydney”.

Greens leader Christine Milne also rejected the plan, saying it was a recycled idea from former Queensland premier Joh Bjelke-Petersen and mining magnate Gina Rinehart.

She said it was an ”old frontiersman” plan that didn’t fit in with what the Australian economy needed, which was a transition out of a ”dig it up, cut it down and ship it away” mentality.

”This is just Tony Abbott doing what Joh Bjelke-Petersen and Gina Rinehart want,” Ms Milne said.

If it’s clever, the Coalition can attack these government ferals for their negativity. The Greens are the original Dr No!

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 11:16 am
History is history. Dover has already pointed out

But we do accept that it was in some cases spread by force, and as Alcuin in his letters to Charlemagne counselled, we believed this was and is contrary to the Gospels.

Hey let’s talk about how many people are still being killed in the name of Islam today, including, but not limited to, Christians.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 11:17 am
Wow, the atheist Taliban are still going strong this morning.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 11:19 am
That both of you indignantly feign thoughfulness after being widely criticised for your evident bigotry is amusing but tiresome in the repetition.

I’m sure as a proud Catholic man, because I think calling the spread of Christianity “glorious” is over-egging the pudding, I’m a “tiresome bigot”.

You’re a pest James. Fuck off.

How many people do you think Charlemagne killed to create his Empire and stroke his own ego, Gab?

Maybe someone can answer the question instead of flying into a fit of rage as some sort of brainless, proxy defence against radical Islam and the secular hard left.

.

7 Feb 13 at 11:20 am
I guess they’re missing the good old days what with those human and animal sacrifices and all.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 11:21 am
The only rage being exhibited here is by you, Dot.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 11:22 am
Gab, last week there was a story about a new-found mass grave in Mexico from the pagan days. Thank God the spics were converted to the One True Faith.

No big moves afoot to reinstitute cannibalism in New Zealand either.

And if you haven’t noticed Aborignal babies dumped on ant hills about town, thank the nearest Christian.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 11:30 am
Wow, the atheist Taliban are still going strong this morning.

Take that back C.L., you are more honourable than this. Your slur is in fact bit of a joke considering Charlemagne was a lot more characteristic of a Talibani than anyone in modern Australia, or any modern democracy.

DB is wrong. yes the Saxons, Wends, Sorbs, Avars, Bavarians etc were doing just fine before Charlemagne.

Please tell us, as you have implied DB, what crimes they were engaging in daily and why Charlemagne’s intervention saved more lives or stopped more suffering than it created.

Gab brought up barbaric practices in Scandinavia.

I’m sure that Charlemagne did not intervene to end that – and created his Empire purely out of vanity once the Western Frankish provinces were united and rebellious local lords in Aquataine and Gothia were suppressed.

Or are you really going to assert that Charlemagne conquered Western Europe just to help everyone else out?

The fact of the matter is outside of the USA and England (which had terrible religious persecution under Protestant monarchs and Puritan Grandees), before the mid 1800s, most of the West was still ruled by bloodthirsty dickheads. The US and England only beat the rest by about 100-200 years.

It’s not about religion. It’s about recognising the theme that Niall Ferguson points out – we haven’t been truly civilised for very long and last century nearly fell into that abyss again with megadeaths.

We don’t need to glorify monarchies from over 1000 years ago to defend Western civilisation.

.

7 Feb 13 at 11:43 am
You and the even more irrationally hate-filled Yobbo?

I apologise profusely for pointing out irrational and hateful historical facts that CL is apparently unaware of.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 11:44 am
The only rage being exhibited here is by you, Dot.

Yes, when James chimes in with his brainless “of course” and “you’re an anti Catholic bigot”.

.

7 Feb 13 at 11:45 am
Still feigning I see

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 11:45 am
And if you haven’t noticed Aborignal babies dumped on ant hills about town, thank the nearest Christian.

I thank the British Empire, the gallows and a cadre of well trained barristers and judges.

.

7 Feb 13 at 11:46 am
CL renounce your evil ways.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 11:47 am
Assange’s supporters beginning to recognise their messiah has feet of clay: Jemima Khan turns back on Assange.

She writes that she wanted to stand up for free speech, but she says Mr Assange has let his rock star status go to his head.

“I don’t regret putting up bail money for Assange but I did it so that he would be released while awaiting trial, not so that he could avoid answering to the allegations,” she says.

“I have seen flashes of Assange’s charm, brilliance and insightfulness – but I have also seen how instantaneous rock-star status has the power to make even the most clear-headed idealist feel that they are above the law and exempt from criticism.”

…”It would be a tragedy if a man who has done so much good were to end up tolerating only disciples and unwavering devotion, more like an Australian L Ron Hubbard.“

Cold-Hands

7 Feb 13 at 11:50 am
dottie is sounding like keroboy Hammy.

Don’t suicide for shame of your heritage dottie.

For you, there’s so much more immediate to be shameful about.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 11:56 am
Or are you really going to assert that Charlemagne conquered Western Europe just to help everyone else out?

Charlemagne sought to expand the Frankish empire. Not for wealth and control but merely to convert the pagans? That appears to be secondary motive. Power and wealth. He was the only one in the history of the world ever to do so. There have been no other invasions committed by anyone else in history in the name of whatever, except for maybe when the Brits invaded Australia.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 11:56 am
The interesting and amusing thing is that Christianity’s critics accuse it of sinning against its own precepts when mistakes – some of them terrible – were made.

But with atheism, there are no mistakes.

Mass murder is a feature, not a bug.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 12:03 pm
Charlemagne’s first act upon conquering Saxony was to institute the death penalty for any Saxon who continued to worship Pagan gods. Including one lovely episode of the massacre in cold blood of 4,500 Saxons who had been caught practicing pagan rituals.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 12:06 pm
The interesting and amusing thing is that Christianity’s critics accuse it of sinning against its own precepts when mistakes – some of them terrible – were made.

But with atheism, there are no mistakes.

Mass murder is a feature, not a bug.

Sinc!!!!!!!

That’s a classic from CL.

It deserves to be formalised as a Catallaxy Liberty Quote

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 12:06 pm
This is the first hearing in the committal process. At this hearing the Court will set a timetable for the exchange of information between the prosecution and the defence and dates for matters which will ultimately be determined in a higher jurisdiction. Applications for bail may also be lodged at this time.” -see http://www.magistratescourt.vic.gov.au/jurisdictions/criminal-and-traffic/criminal-proceedings/types-hearings

Firstly, there is no expectation by either the police or the accused that a witness list will be handed over to the accused by the police at a Filing Hearing. Mr. Thomson’s criticism of the police on this point is a complete and utterly disgraceful comment. It is ill-informed and misleading. It should be denounced

Practising lawyer at Michael Smith’s demolishes Grey’s The police not being to provide a list of witnesses against Craig Thomson was not a good look. while correcting the false impressions left by Craig Thomson’s recent statements.

Cold-Hands

7 Feb 13 at 12:09 pm
The interesting and amusing thing is that Christianity’s critics accuse it of sinning against its own precepts when mistakes – some of them terrible – were made.

But with atheism, there are no mistakes.

Mass murder is a feature, not a bug.

CL’s daily claim that communism was nothing more than the practical application of atheism.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 12:11 pm
Charlemagne’s first act upon conquering Saxony was to institute the death penalty for any Saxon who continued to worship Pagan gods. Including one lovely episode of the massacre in cold blood of 4,500 Saxons who had been caught practicing pagan rituals.

Yes? And? So? Now what?

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 12:11 pm
Rule #1 of christianity:

If your neighbor is a practising christian, at branding time be sure to brand the calves in the paddock next to him first.

Steve at the Pub

7 Feb 13 at 12:15 pm
Yes? And? So? Now what?

So can CL now admit that Christianity was spread under threat of death in Saxony at least? Because if you read up the thread a bit, he has still refused to acknowledge that.

Shall we go further and list the crimes of CL’s “greatest man in history” Thomas More?

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 12:15 pm
Howard’s big spending conservatism seems to be an odds on bet.

I agree that Howard’s spending was extravagant in some areas, the Coalition in those years were rather economically ‘dry’ when you look at Industrial relations and taxation.

Andrew

7 Feb 13 at 12:17 pm
FFS, CL stop upsetting the atheists.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 12:18 pm
I do like Abbott’s plan for the Northern Australia to be expanded.

Andrew

7 Feb 13 at 12:19 pm
Your slur is in fact bit of a joke considering Charlemagne was a lot more characteristic of a Talibani than anyone in modern Australia, or any modern democracy.

Oh, yes, just like the Carolingian Renaissance, there was a similar Talibani Renaissance that occurred in Afghanistan just a few years back.

DB is wrong. yes the Saxons, Wends, Sorbs, Avars, Bavarians etc were doing just fine before Charlemagne.

Yes, they were doing just fine conducting raids on surrounding settlements and enslaving those captured or conducting their own acts of conquest. The Avars were not even native to the Carpathian basin being descended from Scythians, etc. further east – that were forcibly moved by Turkic migrations to the West – who would have forcibly displaced whoever they found in that area, who would have themselves done the same.

Please tell us, as you have implied DB, what crimes they were engaging in daily and why Charlemagne’s intervention saved more lives or stopped more suffering than it created.

I haven’t implied anything of the sort but then again I’m not drawing historical caricatures. On the whole, I think Charlemagne’s influence was a net positive for Europe as a whole.

Or are you really going to assert that Charlemagne conquered Western Europe just to help everyone else out?

And yet you implied this precisely about the British Empire.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 12:21 pm
If any of your umpteenth Great Uncles were burned alive at a stake, instead of being given food and shelter, when shipwrecked off the coast of Spain hundreds of years ago:

That was because of Christians.

Steve at the Pub

7 Feb 13 at 12:21 pm
Shall we go further and list the crimes of CL’s “greatest man in history” Thomas More?

Sure, go right ahead if it pleases you but please could you cite from books instead of Wiki?

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 12:25 pm
Sure, go right ahead if it pleases you but please could you cite from books instead of Wiki?

what’s the point?

The dunce wouldn’t have read the books either

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 12:30 pm
Sure, go right ahead if it pleases you but please could you cite from books instead of Wiki?

Wiki cites books, Gab. Try clicking the little numbers next to the passages you don’t believe. They are citations.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 12:30 pm
Then you should have no problem citing from the books. Not every sentence in Wiki is sourced.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 12:33 pm
tee hee.. someones been having a laugh on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offset_Alpine_fire

“- Mining Magnate Eddie Obeid”

duncanm

7 Feb 13 at 12:34 pm
Sinc you needn’t have worried about Catallaxy becoming an echo chamber, it has become evident that even without trolls like SFB and Monty (who have been in absentia for a little while now), there are still plenty of topics for the Cats to disagree on…

Old Fridgie

7 Feb 13 at 12:35 pm
Well one anyway…

Old Fridgie

7 Feb 13 at 12:36 pm
Your slur is in fact bit of a joke considering Charlemagne was a lot more characteristic of a Talibani than anyone in modern Australia, or any modern democracy.

Oh, yes, just like the Carolingian Renaissance, there was a similar Talibani Renaissance that occurred in Afghanistan just a few years back.

It is a fact they have more in common with the Taliban. They destroyed religious icons they did not like.

DB is wrong. yes the Saxons, Wends, Sorbs, Avars, Bavarians etc were doing just fine before Charlemagne.

Yes, they were doing just fine conducting raids on surrounding settlements and enslaving those captured or conducting their own acts of conquest. The Avars were not even native to the Carpathian basin being descended from Scythians, etc. further east – that were forcibly moved by Turkic migrations to the West – who would have forcibly displaced whoever they found in that area, who would have themselves done the same.

How does that justify conquering Western Europe from the Ebro to the Danube and Oder?

Please tell us, as you have implied DB, what crimes they were engaging in daily and why Charlemagne’s intervention saved more lives or stopped more suffering than it created.

I haven’t implied anything of the sort but then again I’m not drawing historical caricatures. On the whole, I think Charlemagne’s influence was a net positive for Europe as a whole.

Yet above you said how they were doing all sorts of things wrong.

Or are you really going to assert that Charlemagne conquered Western Europe just to help everyone else out?

And yet you implied this precisely about the British Empire.

No, I didn’t, and I know you are literate enough to be able to tell that if you didn’t have a dismissive attitude of anything that challenges a cult of personality for Charlemagne.

The British Empire made Aborigines better off through rule of law – not because of missionaries.

.

7 Feb 13 at 12:51 pm
tee hee.. someones been having a laugh on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offset_Alpine_fire

“- Mining Magnate Eddie Obeid”

Absolutely hilarious, and well played.

That wiki page is so damning about the ALP. They need to be ground into the dust.

.

7 Feb 13 at 12:52 pm
It is a fact they have more in common with the Taliban. They destroyed religious icons they did not like.

So they, both Charlemagne and the Taliban, are like the early Protestants, the Puritans, and Jacobins as well? Interesting.

How does that justify conquering Western Europe from the Ebro to the Danube and Oder?

I wasn’t justifying, I was merely stating facts.

No, I didn’t, and I know you are literate enough to be able to tell that if you didn’t have a dismissive attitude of anything that challenges a cult of personality for Charlemagne.

How have I expressed anything that would even suggest a cult of personality regarding Charlemange? I referenced his failure to follow Alciun’s advise.

The British Empire made Aborigines better off through rule of law – not because of missionaries.

Why, yes, and no Saxon was made better off by Charlemagne’s conquest. And, of course, the creation of a British Empire and its conquests of parts of the Americas, Africa, and Asia, was not itself analogous to Charlemagne’s conquests of parts of Europe because the latter did not make the conquered lands “better off”.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 1:05 pm
I’m not saying people weren’t bettered by invasions by a technologically more advanced conqueror.

The British Empire certainly did make Aborigines better off – eventually.

I object to C.L.’s characterisation of the spread of Christianity as “glorious” and the idea that Aborigines were civilised because of modern day Christians in Australia.

They are absurd statements.

.

7 Feb 13 at 1:12 pm
What is all this historical bilge ebing thrown about by the atheists?

The answer is simple. When Chritianity was a force for conquest human life was considered less than important. By the time that totalitarian regimmes began the mass killing sprees that dwarf anything Christian conquerors ever did, the moral environment had altered so that the taking of human life was regarded as evil.

In essence this means that atheistic regimes are far more evil than their Christian predecessors.

Rococo Liberal

7 Feb 13 at 1:22 pm
I guess they’re missing the good old days what with those human and animal sacrifices and all.

Yes. Leviticus has always been my favourite part of the bible.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 1:26 pm
CL’s daily claim that communism was nothing more than the practical application of atheism.

If all Christians are to be held accountable for the dark ages morality of Charlemayne applying his form of Christianity, all Athiests will be held accountable for the dark ages morality of communists applying their form of Atheism.

Token

7 Feb 13 at 1:27 pm
What is all this historical bilge ebing thrown about by the atheists?

Lies.

.

7 Feb 13 at 1:27 pm
If all Christians are to be held accountable for the dark ages morality of Charlemayne applying his form of Christianity, all Athiests will be held accountable for the dark ages morality of communists applying their form of Atheism.

Hey why do pagans get a free ride in the murdering stakes? What did the pagans ever do for us?

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 1:29 pm
Yes. Leviticus has always been my favourite part of the bible.

Then you’ll be completely enthralled by the Qu’ran.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 1:31 pm
The British Empire made Aborigines better off through rule of law – not because of missionaries.

Oh dot that’s some heroic anti-libertarian historical revision and distortion.

A) The Rule of law in the Evangelical Empire was inextricably intertwined with christian ideology. Judges and barristers regularly exhorted christian ideas and beliefs in the court room as support or defence for the morality of their cases. Christianity was absolutely everywhere.

Your constant attempts to erase that from history are wrong.

B) Missions were setup in NSW decades before there was any presence felt by the government and “rule of law” in those areas.

twostix

7 Feb 13 at 1:31 pm
If all Christians are to be held accountable for the dark ages morality of Charlemayne applying his form of Christianity, all Athiests will be held accountable for the dark ages morality of communists applying their form of Atheism.

Let the chips fall where they may. There is no need to gussy up Western European history. Admitting that Charlemagne was an unpleasant person does not take away from the results of what Martel, Leo I did nor does it give any credence to athiest dictatorships. You’d have to be paranoid to think that it would.

Liberal democracy is still the best thing that has happened in humanity.

Yes, you do have to credit Christianity with being moderate and accepting disestablishment and dissent, but only after a long series of religious wars, and the theological and governance reforms of the reformation and counter reformation.

.

7 Feb 13 at 1:32 pm
Well one anyway…

Old Fridgie, you can always bring up Churchill if things get dull.

brc

7 Feb 13 at 1:36 pm
When Chritianity was a force for conquest human life was considered less than important.

So mass murder was OK when Christians were doing it, but now they’ve allegedly stopped, mass murder is bad.

OK RL. Got it.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 1:38 pm
The Rule of law in the Evangelical Empire was inextricably intertwined with christian ideology. Judges and barristers regularly exhorted christian ideas and beliefs in the court room as support or defence for the morality of their cases. Christianity was absolutely everywhere.

That survives, and has been applied in Australia from colonial times, in equity, mostly.

Missions were setup in NSW decades before there was any presence felt by the government and “rule of law” in those areas.

…and they civilised the entire people? No. They civilised a few. Tribal law is being stamped out now only because of the intervention etc. Not by cheery Pastors and Priests.

.

7 Feb 13 at 1:41 pm
If all Christians are to be held accountable for the dark ages morality of Charlemayne applying his form of Christianity, all Athiests will be held accountable for the dark ages morality of communists applying their form of Atheism.

Logic fail. Many athiests are also anti-communist.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 1:41 pm
I do like Abbott’s plan for the Northern Australia to be expanded.

I certainly want to hear more about it. On a related note, did anyone see David Bradbury on Sky this morning discussing it. I think we have a new candidate for Dr NO. It was almost on the same faux-outrage scale as Gillard’s misogyny speech…

Skuter

7 Feb 13 at 1:41 pm
So mass murder was OK when Christians were doing it, but now they’ve allegedly stopped, mass murder is bad.

That’s not even nearly what he said.

twostix

7 Feb 13 at 1:42 pm
Wow, aren’t we lucky that noone in this country went over the top criticising Lance Armstrong for being a drug cheat.

A YEAR-long government investigation has concluded that drug use is widespread in Australian sport, along with links to organised crime which may have led to match-fixing.

The Australian Crime Commission probe identified widespread use of prohibited substances including peptides, hormones and illicit drugs in professional sport.

[H/t Bolta]

Token

7 Feb 13 at 1:43 pm
Abbot…

No buddy that’s not a bad idea. But…

Why can’t the private sector do it?

Probably because, of 30 years plus of environmental regulation.

There is so much scope for more hydroelectric dams in NSW and QLD to mitigate floods, provide power and provide irrigation and potable water.

Now try imagining getting such an enterprise off the ground. It’s easier to get a rare earth, uranium or coal mine off the ground.

.

7 Feb 13 at 1:43 pm
Then you’ll be completely enthralled by the Qu’ran.

Yes. A despite its short length it’s a very revealing book. I prefer the Hadith for a more comprehensive insight into the RoP.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 1:44 pm
Logic fail. Many athiests are also anti-communist.

As DB noted, many Christians at the time of Charlemagne rejected his methods as well, but similarly were powerless to stop him.

Token

7 Feb 13 at 1:45 pm
I don’t watch that Kitchen show but I like those Indian girls. I don’t get how they’re loathed by Australian viewers. Then again, this whole “death threats” thing seems like another dinosaur media beatup.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 1:46 pm
sfdc was right.

I got a copy of the Quran and I found it so boring I stopped at pg 2.

How they ever got people to spread their faith with such zealotry…I will never, ever understand. It’s like mainlining valium.

.

7 Feb 13 at 1:49 pm
C.L.,

Could they cook?

.

7 Feb 13 at 1:50 pm
That’s not even nearly what he said.

No doubt you can enlighten me then.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 1:50 pm
I prefer the Hadith for a more comprehensive insight into the RoP.

Which one and why?

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 1:51 pm
What did the pagans ever do for us?

Erect Stonehenge.

I recommend a visit there for the solstice and observe its new modern purpose of entertainment as all the locals get drunk and then vomit and urinate on the stones.

Some of the more serious modern pagans take drugs and copulate nearby. It caters for all tastes.

Dan

7 Feb 13 at 1:52 pm
I object to C.L.’s characterisation of the spread of Christianity as “glorious” and the idea that Aborigines were civilised because of modern day Christians in Australia.

I haven’t once used the word glorious, Dot. You’re somewhat casual with your use of quotation marks.

What I said, correctly – was:

No, people converted to Christianity originally because the old pagans were a bunch of clueless yokels. In fact, the very word ‘pagan’ was derogatory erstwhile slang for yokel. You can read all about how Christians won the cities of the ancient world and established things like hospitals in Peter Brown’s magnificent histories.

But sure: the story of how a small band of men gathered around Our Lord Jesus Christ spread the Gospel and created the most wonderful civilisation in earth’s history is indeed glorious. Ad maiorem Dei glorium.

And yes, Christians ended the old pagan/heathen slaughterhouses of the world – from Mexico to van Diemen’s Land.

I also pointed out that atheists were the worst mass murderers in human history.

———————————————

Now will you wild-eyed atheists stop wrecking another thread?

Please. Just shut up about religion.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 1:57 pm
Which one and why?

Here is something I posted somewhere – probably Bolta – a few years ago:

The Koran:

The Koran is the direct word of Allah as dictated to the Prophet Mohammed. Every single word in the Koran is the word of Allah himself. This is the book where you really get to know Allah, what he likes and what he doesn’t like. For example, he really likes the ‘fire’ but he’s not too fond of unbelievers. He’s also pretty fond of himself just quietly. This is probably best summed up in the following sura:

4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

The Hadith:

Now the Hadith is different to the Koran in that it is the story of the life of the Prophet Mohammed as told by his followers. Much like the Gospels in the Bible. Oh what fun those Muslim chaps had in the good old days! Fighting, raping slaves and marrying six year old girls. It’s a rollicking read. This is the book where you really get to know Mohammad and what a humanitarian he was. This is probably best summed up by the following passage:

Muslim 017, Number 4206:

…There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah’s Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me… By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah’s Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid’s) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

Inspirational stuff from the Prophet there! The world’s first humanitarian stoning.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 1:58 pm
Shocking news breaking:

Unions criticise Abbott tax plan.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 2:00 pm
Please. Just shut up about religion.

Of course, just so long as you get the last word.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 2:02 pm
You could have just sais you prefer the Sahih Mulim version, Jupes. No need to pontificate about it.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 2:05 pm
Yeah but apart from that, Dan what did the pagans ever do for us?

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 2:06 pm
What a crock of shit, if you don’t agree with C.L., you’re an athiest.

But sure: the story of how a small band of men gathered around Our Lord Jesus Christ spread the Gospel and created the most wonderful civilisation in earth’s history is indeed glorious. Ad maiorem Dei glorium.

Rubbish. The Roman Empire already existed and our law has its roots in Roman law, even if we are not a civil law country (the definition of property for example). The church of the middle ages, was not glorious, the Pope was effectively an Imperial overlord over Kings and Emperors and received taxation revenue from everywhere. It was “glorious” in the sense that it was perhaps one of the largest Empires that ever existed. A true glory of the church for example is how Leo I dissuaded Attila from attacking Rome.

To say Christendom on its own was glorious is far fetched too. Medieval England, one of the more free nations at the time, and first to throw off feudalism along with the Low Countries, before and after the Norman conquest and until the War of the Roses, had slavery, in addition to the bonded servants and landless labourers. Of course, the Tudors, Stuarts, Puritans and anti Jacobites all inflicted their own oppressive crap too.

Furthermore, the Church had serious problems until the end of the counter reformation.

.

7 Feb 13 at 2:09 pm
Yeah but apart from that, Dan what did the pagans ever do for us?

I hope you’re riffing monty python with a sense of irony.

.

7 Feb 13 at 2:11 pm
It’s only taken them half a day, but Fairfax have now gone into howler monkey mode on Abbott’s north Australia policy paper, wheeling out clown prince Ross Gittins and one of its Kremlin production line talking heads in a three-and-a-half-minute interview with clown prince Craig Emerson — a wall-to-wall anti-Coalition propaganda play with not a dissenting sentence penetrating the stitch-up, complete with the customary is-Abbott-an-idiot? poll.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 2:11 pm
What a crock of shit, if you don’t agree with C.L., you’re an athiest.

Obummer’s strawmen haven’t a patch on dottie’s

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 2:13 pm
What a crock of shit, if you don’t agree with C.L., you’re an athiest.

Obummer’s strawmen haven’t a patch on dottie’s

Okay genius boy…

Now will you wild-eyed atheists stop wrecking another thread?

Um okay…except I’m not an athiest, James. You also accused me of being an anti Catholic bigot before. No.

You actually think I’m a worse political figure than Barack Obama. This speaks volume about your paranoid mindset.

.

7 Feb 13 at 2:16 pm
Atheists were the worst mass murderers and most irrational morons in human history. End.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 2:16 pm
Of course, just so long as you get the last word.

You tell ‘im, jupes.

Now, why don’t you regale me with more tales of how evil we Christians are and how badly Western Civilization has suffered due to Christianity alone.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 2:17 pm
I dunno Gab…

A bunch of Nordic musicians in horned helmets and animal skin coats playing heavy metal songs about Thor?

Dan

7 Feb 13 at 2:20 pm
Atheists were the worst mass murderers

Arguably. Hitler was born into a Catholic family and ~~Abbot~~ Stalin trained in a seminary.

Mao – “religion is poison”, massive bpdycount, copycat killers like Pol Pot etc. Okay. I’ll give you that.

most irrational morons in human history

Tell me why it is irrational to doubt when Jesus Christ had a moment of doubt – and why say Anslem of Canterbury’s arguments are completely robust.

I’ve only seen arguments against him that I assumed were biased the same way left wing uni professors refuse to give Ayn Rand any credence, but the argument should be self evidently true.

.

7 Feb 13 at 2:20 pm
Incidentally, if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church acting alone in 1571, Europe would now be continental Saudi Arabia. Just say ‘thank you’ and we’ll move on.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 2:23 pm
Yeah but apart from that, Dan what did the pagans ever do for us?

HINT:

ATHENIAN DEMOCRACY

DEFEAT OF PERSIA

ARISTOTELIAN LOGIC

HOMONOIA

ROMAN EMPIRE AND ROMAN LAW

I agree the hippy Jesus Christ and his true followers were a great, and moderating influence on the above.

.

7 Feb 13 at 2:24 pm
Wrt:

Okay genius boy…

You have quoted somebody else not me, genius

You actually think I’m a worse political figure than Barack Obama

So dottie’s rebuttal of my accusation that he uses strawman arguments is itself a strawman argument.

Wow

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 2:25 pm
Hitler was born into a Catholic family and Abbot Stalin trained in a seminary.

LOL.

The old ‘Stalin trained in a seminary’ line.

Um, no.

He was admitted to a seminary school as a boy and was promptly expelled.

Hitler was an atheist.

So was atheist icon Mao.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 2:26 pm
Mao was raised a Buddhist.
Historian Allan Bullock writes, Hitler “had no time at all for Catholic teaching, regarding it as a religion fit only for slaves and detesting its ethics.”

“Hitler needed the support of the German people — both the Bavarian Catholics and the Prussian Lutherans — and to secure this he occasionally used rhetoric such as “I am doing the Lord’s work.” To claim that this rhetoric makes Hitler a Christian is to confuse political opportunism with personal conviction. Hitler himself says in Mein Kampf that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bears no relation to the truth but is designed to sway the masses. ”

Dinesh D’Souza, Was Hitler a Christian.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 2:26 pm
Incidentally, if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church acting alone in 1571, Europe would now be continental Saudi Arabia. Just say ‘thank you’ and we’ll move on.

Are you talking about the Battle of Lepanto?

It is a pivotal moment in history but you are really over egging the pudding again.

The Hapsburgs were not the Catholic Church, the fact that the Austrians refused to be crowned in Rome but rather ruled as Emperor elect shows this.

.

7 Feb 13 at 2:31 pm
Climate Consciousness just released this report for anyone interested.

CSIROh!
Climate of Deception? … Or First Step to Freedom?

Jessie

7 Feb 13 at 2:34 pm
I actually thought Hitler tried to reinvent Christianity to fit in the nationalist, racialist and totalitarian teachings of Nazism and at the same time repudiating the Jewish roots…which is odd, considering that Jesus must have been Jewish.

I had forgotten that C.L. about Stalin. Anyone who takes my joke seriously needs to take some Thorazine. I don’t think Abbot is Stalin…FFS you guys are paranoid.

.

7 Feb 13 at 2:37 pm
I got a copy of the Quran and I found it so boring I stopped at pg 2.

The trouble with the Koran is that they arranged the chapters in order of length instead of in chronological order! It also repeats itself a lot.

Allah, amazingly, is not a very good writer.

There is a version of the Koran called A Simple Koran. They put the chapters in chronological order, stripped out a lot of the repetition, and added in some historical context about the life of Mohammed.

It’s still very boring, I have to say. I haven’t gotten very far in it. So far the message is that if you don’t believe in the message of Islam, you are going to go to hell. They repeat that message over and over.

I think it will get more interesting later when they start killing the infidels.

Dangph

7 Feb 13 at 2:38 pm
Oh and unicorns, with an added bonus of an opportunity for Jascon Clare and Kate Lundy to tell us how much we need the government.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 2:41 pm
”This is just Tony Abbott doing what Joh Bjelke-Petersen and Gina Rinehart want,” Ms Milne said.

Oh dear. Did Christine miss the bit where Joh died years ago?

Tracey

7 Feb 13 at 2:42 pm
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/media/abc-wins-one-off-10m-increase-to-budget/story-e6frg996-1226572712989
Of course it would be waaaay to cynical to suggest this is a ploy from Conroy to garner more favourable coverage from ‘our ABC’…the red underpants gnome wouldn’t do that, would he? /sarc off
These knuckleheads must think we’re stupid…

Skuter

7 Feb 13 at 2:44 pm
It’s absurd to imagine that the choice is either Jerusalem or Athens and the early Christians and their descendants had the good grace to absorb those elements of pagan culture that were worth absorbing and they did a remarkable job of this particularly in relation to intellectual and institutional framework of antiquity. But they also cast off its most vile elements and Christianized the remainder. But to have people here criticize Charlemagne, for instances, for practices that the pagans themselves would never have even thought twice of doing and did when they were the victors is just incredible.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 2:44 pm
FFS you guys are paranoid.

So you’ve already said before. I think you’re paranoid about us guys.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 2:45 pm
It’s absurd to imagine that the choice is either Jerusalem or Athens and the early Christians and their descendants had the good grace to absorb those elements of pagan culture that were worth absorbing and they did a remarkable job of this particularly in relation to intellectual and institutional framework of antiquity. But they also cast off its most vile elements and Christianized the remainder. But to have people here criticize Charlemagne, for instances, for practices that the pagans themselves would never have even thought twice of doing and did when they were the victors is just incredible.

Dover, I beseech you to stop being so balanced and even-handed in your comments.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 2:46 pm
Dot, can you stop going on about religion?

It’s really boring for everyone.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 2:47 pm
I’ll stop when people stop calling me an atheist for disagreeing with them about history. It’s a slur considering you have called athiests morons, mass murderers and so on.

It’s absurd to imagine that the choice is either Jerusalem or Athens

Of course, we’re left with a legacy of synthesis and we got the best of East and West.

Thinking about it more – I’d say Hitler was a heretic with a messiah complex.

But to have people here criticize Charlemagne, for instances, for practices that the pagans themselves would never have even thought twice of doing and did when they were the victors is just incredible.

I’ve criticised everyone in the British Empire basically before 1832 as well. I mentioned that before and serial pest James said having such a belief was pretentious, I was being a wanker, pretending to be of a higher intelligence than I really am – after that deluded fuckwit has offered nothing of substance for an entire day.

.

7 Feb 13 at 2:54 pm
Gillard’s lying and not answering of questions is getting worse every day.

Andrew

7 Feb 13 at 2:57 pm
I’ll stop when people stop calling me an atheist

Paranoid atheist then?

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 2:58 pm
Interesting discussion on the Scandinavians and Charlemagne and the Christianisation of Europe and beyond. Yobbo is right. It was at times very forced and brutal. CL is right too. It was often not, being peaceful and considered, bringing many advantages with it, both economic and moral.

I am the proud owner, and avid reader, of Richard Fletcher’s ‘The Barbarian Conversion’ (Henry Holt, NY 1998), which I purchased in a Christian bookshop in the Aldgate in Oxford. The complexity of the conversion process, ably dissected by Fletcher, is summared briefly for us as this:

“Magic stones; magic letters; magic belts and bridles; magic dust. These few samples from a vast body of evidence prompt reflections on the manner in which Christian churchmen of the early Middle Ages were prepared to make room for customs and beliefs, practices and pratcitioners, of long ancestry and continuing vitality outside a Christian dispensation. It is a process that historians of religion term syncretism, which has been defined by The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church as a ‘fusion of various beliefs and practices’. The process has been called by other names: adaptation, borrowing, compromise, dilution, juxtaposition, surrender, transference are just some of them. Which one we chose to employ will reveal something of what we think about the processs. It has long been recognized that a readiness to adapt was of critical importance in the process of Christianization. So far, so simple. But there are other fine discriminations to be made and variables to which the enquirer must be alert. The problems are not dissimilar to some of those we encountered in chapters 5 and 6 when observing the interplay of missionary churchmen and warrior aristocracies. It was a matter of drawing lines around the limits of what was acceptable in trditional belief and practice.” 1997:253

I believe that I can make a contribution to showing that something else was also going on in religious conflict during this period, the remnants of which can still be found, if we know where to look. I have done a bit of looking. It concerns the Nicene Creed and the poorly explained appeal of Arianism to the Germanic nations.

All I wish to do is set the ball of discussion rolling in a populist manner on certain aspects of Christian syncretism and yes, of conflicting belief systems. I chose to do it this way because I am no historian, nor do I want to become one, and should my book sound like Fletcher’s then none of my friends would want to read it. I just found something to do with a name (I am fussy about names ), in Scandinavia, at Gamla Uppsala, a linkage I think no-one else has spotted – yet – although some are getting close (Sutton Hoo helps), and I wish to put it out there in a way that a lot of people might read; to share with them my excitement about how and when I found this name, and then how I found a lot more because I knew what I was looking for. A different sort of detective story, maybe. There is a history of this conflict. It lies embedded in the Arthurian legends.

I found in pursing some on-topic reading that very little consideration has been given to the prospect that there existed for a very long period in Europe a developed and anterior religion, categorised as ‘heathen’, one which did not just have its external rituals and simple beliefs as Fletcher elaborates, but which had also a strongly imagined theology. Pagan, CL, is a term originally used regarding the peasant beliefs in the old pantheon of the Romanised countryside during the period of Christianisation of the cities. Pagan was not a term for those whose gods ruled beyond the power of Rome and its Romanitas. Those gods were ‘heathen’: the ancient gods of the Germanic hearth.

This heathen religion deserves more attention, but work in this area, as I ruefully admit in my now written first chapter, is speculative, a ‘salvage’ anthropology, and it can’t really be more. Given what I have found, I deem that this lost religious past has not been well served by work of contemporary religious historians, who cannot leap from the particularist (every locality had its own deities, there was no real pantheon and no theology). I have no skin in any academic game, so I can make this leap in order to seek remnant forms of something more grand, as say the great nineteenth century historians of religion such as Sir James Frazer were doing. Not that the seekers of The White Goddess (as Robert Graves put it) were right, or that Gaia seekers today are anything but deluded fools, but there is a masculine and feminine in this this as in other early religions that I can unpick, even if only for fun. It could bring out some home truths about gender roles sorely needed under today’s feminisms.

As I say in that just formed first chapter, it is a good thing that, on this, I have no great academic reputation to lose, and that therefore Lizzie B can prattle away happily as she wishes.

If this doesn’t work for me, then no sweat, I will move on to other things.

Another book I have found useful is Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick, “A History of Pagan Europe”, Routledge 1995. An easier read, more of an overview, but drawing together a mass of information that demonstrates just how much of the old ‘pagan’ (read ‘heathen’) religious iconography is still extant; I think some of the beliefs are dimly visible too, euheumised into folk tales. I would not of course be the first to say this (folklorists do go on), but I think I can add something yet unsaid that has a particular salience to early Christianity. You have to have an obsessive interest with words and their origins and meanings to even begin to think this way: maybe my only qualification, maybe too my downfall.

CL – for more on ‘paganism’ in the Romanitas, you might find another of my favourites a good read:
Ramsay MacMullen, Yale UP, 1984 “Christianity and Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries”.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

7 Feb 13 at 3:01 pm
Really Gab, if you want to antagonise me and everyone else finds this very dull, prepare for more dullness.

C.L., could you refrain from making up history such as ‘the Catholic Church saved Europe and thus civilisation in 1571 (because there would have been NO land battles after this) and you can thank *us* “Catholics who believe the Church has never done anything wrong that can’t be excused with moral relativism, which otherwise we bitterly oppose)” for saving civilisation”?

Cheers.

.

7 Feb 13 at 3:01 pm
Aww, Dot I just get a kick out of your meltdowns.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 3:06 pm
If you say braindead things, what do you expect? A commendation?

.

7 Feb 13 at 3:09 pm
If you say braindead things, what do you expect? A commendation?

It seems to work for the slapper…

Skuter

7 Feb 13 at 3:20 pm
I heartily recommend Brown’s The Rise of Western Christendom: Triumph and Diversity, A.D. 200-1000 (Making of Europe)

The title is slightly misleading as he also addresses its fortunes in the East, particularly in Asia Minor and Caucasus.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 3:21 pm
It’s going into a wishlist, I have a pile of literature a metre high I haven’t touched. Besides 2 pages of the Quran and about five of The Shiralee.

.

7 Feb 13 at 3:31 pm
It’s going into a wishlist, I have a pile of literature a metre high I haven’t touched. Besides 2 pages of the Quran and about five of The Shiralee.

Becomes a problem eh? How much to read and how to choose what to read. I’ve been very scatter brained over recent months, hoping but continually failing to find something interesting I can sink my teeth into. I have decided to cut down my blogging because I think it is leading me to think about too many things.

John H.

7 Feb 13 at 3:35 pm
An impish read but informative:

How the Irish saved civilization:
the untold story of Ireland’s heroic role from the fall of Rome to the rise of medieval Europe

It’s only 250 odd pages but even that would be challenging for Yobbo and co.

It certainly illustrates the core role of monasticism in European cultural advancement and the Irish monks syncretism with Pagan fables

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 3:41 pm
Just to make sure, the Gillard rabble has allocated an extra $10 million to the ABC to splurge on new journalists in an election year:

The ABC’s director of news, Kate Torney, told staff in a speech at the broadcaster’s Ultimo head office today that was broadcast to ABC news offices around the country that there was “’No better place to be if you’re a journalist than the ABC”.

She added she was in a “rare and privileged position to be talking about recruiting more journalists”.

The sum is a one-off payment linked to the ABC’s news gathering review undertaken over the last 12 months in order to restructure ABC News. It is not linked to the upcoming triennial funding package.

Some of the money will be spent on improving regional newsgathering, including putting in better communications infrastructure and more cameras, as well as hiring more journalists for extended specialist and network rounds.

The broadcaster is also investigating the introduction of a fact-checking unit.

The increased funding comes amidst continuing negotiations with the federal government for the broadcaster’s triennial funding package, due to be announced in the coming May budget. It was postponed for 12 months last year.

This week, ABC managing director Mark Scott, chairman Jim Spigelman and others visited Canberra to lobby politicians and presented its annual showcase of programs last night.

The chairman stressed the broadcaster’s role as a strengthener of citizenship and a national builder, not just an audience chaser.

He said the broadcaster was not just another media company, but a “gift from the government of Australia”.

Communications Minister Stephen Conroy pre-empted today’s announcement by telling the ABC showcase the government was committed to strengthening the ABC’s news gathering abilities, particularly in regional areas.

h/t Blair

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 3:48 pm
Sinc!!!!!!!

That’s a classic from CL.

It deserves to be formalised as a Catallaxy Liberty Quote

Good god, man. Have some self respect and stop acting like a teenager.

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 4:15 pm
Hitler was a Roman Catholic and the Pope instructed all Catholics to pray for him on his birthday until he died.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 4:16 pm
Interesting discussion on the Scandinavians and Charlemagne and the Christianisation of Europe and beyond. Yobbo is right. It was at times very forced and brutal. CL is right too. It was often not, being peaceful and considered, bringing many advantages with it, both economic and moral.

Yes indeed. Sounds just like Islam, which used Christianity as it’s blueprint.

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 4:19 pm
In his book Mein Kampf Hitler made numerous religious pronouncements.[2] In its pages, historian Richard Steigmann-Gall notes, “Hitler gave no indication of being an atheist or agnostic or of believing in only a remote, rationalist divinity. Indeed, he referred continually to a providential, active deity.”[31]
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

Learn.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 4:21 pm
It’s only 250 odd pages but even that would be challenging for Yobbo and co.

You are on fire!

You nailed it. Reading long texts is a challenge for anyone who disagrees with you and backs their position with facts.

Run, James, run from the facty, fact-filled facts.

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 4:22 pm
Don’t let your sadness overcome you and make you rude:

I’m Maverick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuTvPkIz7Y0

.

7 Feb 13 at 4:24 pm
More scum to sell on Sept 15th, kidneys included

WhaleHunt Fun

7 Feb 13 at 4:28 pm
But to have people here criticize Charlemagne, for instances, for practices that the pagans themselves would never have even thought twice of doing and did when they were the victors is just incredible.

I think you missed the part, Dover Beach, where CL claimed that there was no forced conversion of anyone in Europe, and they all took up Catholicism purely because of the beauty of the teachings of Jesus.

So again, forgive me for describing what actually happened.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 4:28 pm
My goodness, Yobbo. It sounds like Hitler struck a chord with the belief of the religious masses that they are backed by a divine destiny. Could it be that he manipulated a human flaw in this manner, exploiting a religious imperative? Surely, not!

Actually, Yobbo, sarcasm aside, you are late to this party. CL already described Nazism and Stalinism as “cults” up thread, tacitly acknowledging that they were, like all cults including his own, a human phenomenon.

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 4:28 pm
After 5000 years of religious debate I would be shocked if the good denizens of Catallaxy couldn’t comprehensively end the debate once and for all.

Infidel Tiger

7 Feb 13 at 4:31 pm
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

Lee Rhiannon?

Christine Milne?

Infidel Tiger

7 Feb 13 at 4:35 pm
Learn.

Interesting. I linked to a book that gives a different historical perceptive on Hitler and his using religion merely as propaganda and he believed religion just enslaved the masses but I guess Yobbo’s Wiki link trumps all.

braindead

Why thank you, Dot. Coming from you, the scholar and genius that you are, I’ll take your enlightened criticism under advisement and be sure to agree with you on everything in future.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 4:35 pm
The truth of the matter is, if Constantine had never decided to make Christianity the official religion of Rome, nobody would ever have heard of it.

It was the Roman empire that was spectacular and glorious, not Christianity. Christianity has no more to offer than any of a dozen other religions.

Its only claim to fame is that it happened to be the religion of the greatest military power in the history of mankind.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 4:37 pm
Actually, Yobbo, sarcasm aside, you are late to this party. CL already described Nazism and Stalinism as “cults” up thread

CL repeatedly and incorrectly refers to Hitler as an atheist. He quite plainly wasn’t. He believed in a theistic god, he simply disliked organised religion.

Stalin was an actually an atheist. Hitler was not.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 4:39 pm
Why thank you, Dot. Coming from you, the scholar and genius that you are, I’ll take your enlightened criticism under advisement and be sure to agree with you on everything in future.

Really Gab? You trolled me earlier because you thought my responses were amusing.

.

7 Feb 13 at 4:41 pm
LOL

The reliably vile Yobbo is back with his Hitler is a Catholic meme.

And Pope Pius prayed for him apparently.

You are quite mad as well as being a thoroughly vile man Yobbo.

And Abu, you apparently enjoy playing the cretin intermittently.

*yawn*

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 4:46 pm
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/julia-gillard-sells-her-boutique-canberra-apartment/story-fn59niix-1226572752216

Interesting. Maybe I’m reading too much into things, but it seems Gillard has resigned herself to losing the election and she looks set to resign from politics afterwards…the opposition should press her on whether she intends to resign if she loses the election. It could take the sting out of any government attempts to try and avoid a by-election befor the general election in the event someone is removed or retires from the HoR…

Skuter

7 Feb 13 at 4:46 pm
Beautifully said, Lizzie at 3.01pm, all of it. Throughly appreciate your comment above. Your upcoming book sounds intriguing and I am sure will be enjoyable; I look forward to its publication. As a few have noted here, you were born to write.

You have to have an obsessive interest with words and their origins and meanings to even begin to think this way:

A very good memory is a boon also.

maybe my only qualification, maybe too my downfall.

Yin and yang, a curse and a blessing, depending upon attitude, but balances itself out, imho.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 4:46 pm
where CL claimed that there was no forced conversion of anyone in Europe

I don’t think CL actually said that.

So again, forgive me for describing what actually happened.

But you hadn’t since you claimed that Christianity converted Europe by force.

Learn

Indeed, from your wiki link:

According to Max Domarus Hitler promoted the idea of God as the creator of Germany, but Hitler “was not a Christian in any accepted meaning of that word.”[52] Domarus also points out that Hitler did not believe in organized religion and did not see himself as a religious reformer.[52] According to historian Laurence Rees, “Hitler did not believe in the afterlife, but he did believe he would have a life after death because of what he had achieved.”[53] Historian Richard Overy maintains that Hitler was not a “practising Christian,” nor was he a “thorough atheist.”[54] According to Robert S. Wistrich Hitler thought Christianity was finished but he did not want any direct confrontation for strategic reasons.[55] Samuel Koehne, a Research Fellow at the Alfred Deakin Research Institute, working on the official Nazi views on religion, answers the question Was Hitler a Christian? thus: “Emphatically not, if we consider Christianity in its traditional or orthodox form: Jesus as the son of God, dying for the redemption of the sins of all humankind. It is a nonsense to state that Hitler (or any of the Nazis) adhered to Christianity of this form.”[56] Koehne says Hitler was probably not an atheist and refers to the fact that recent works have asserted that he was a deist.[56] Richard Evans concluded his statements on Hitler’s religious views by suggesting that the gap between Hitler’s public and private pronouncements was due to a desire not to cause a quarrel with the churches that might undermine national unity.[49]

And yet you merely quoted from Hitler’s ‘early period’ and ignored the scholarly consensus. But at least you have Overy’s judgement that Hitler wasn’t a thorough atheist, and Koehne’s that Hitler was not so much a atheist as a deist.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 4:52 pm
Token 7 Feb 13 at 1:43 pm

Sport drug cheat stories take heat off ALP political cheats stories. Seems convenient. McT again?

stackja

7 Feb 13 at 4:54 pm
It was the Roman empire that was spectacular and glorious, not Christianity. Christianity has no more to offer than any of a dozen other religions.

Its only claim to fame is that it happened to be the religion of the greatest military power in the history of mankind.

That’s entirely the point Yobbo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_2

The point is made again in The Last Temptation of Christ.

.

7 Feb 13 at 4:54 pm
The reliably vile Yobbo is back with his Hitler is a Catholic meme.

No James. It’s CL whose only argument ever on this subject is “HITLER AND STALIN WERE ATHEISTS! ATHEISTS BAD!.

Hitler was not an atheist. This is a historical fact. He was raised a Catholic, confirmed as a Catholic. He later became antagonistic to the hierarchical nature of the Catholic church, but he always remained Christian and was never even close to Atheism. Ever.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 4:58 pm
Gab,

Hitler got his ideas for Mein Kampf from biologist Ernst Haeckel. Heackel had a theory of nature he called “monism” – turned into a movement called the Monist League. Monism is the opposite of dualism, as I’m sure you know.

ella

7 Feb 13 at 5:01 pm
I should make this clear though: It doesn’t make a bit of difference to me whether Hitler was Muslim, Catholic, Atheist or Hindu. He didn’t start WWII to spread atheism.

CL is the only person here who cares what religion Hitler and Stalin were.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 5:04 pm
LOL

The reliably vile Yobbo is back with his Hitler is a Catholic meme.

And Pope Pius prayed for him apparently.

You are quite mad as well as being a thoroughly vile man Yobbo.

And Abu, you apparently enjoy playing the cretin intermittently.

*yawn*

Apparently!

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 5:06 pm
The truth of the matter is, if Constantine had never decided to make Christianity the official religion of Rome, nobody would ever have heard of it.

Nonsense. Christians had been kicking goals well before Constantine. And this makes Constantine’s act before the battle of the Milvian bridge explicable.

It was the Roman empire that was spectacular and glorious, not Christianity. Christianity has no more to offer than any of a dozen other religions.

What, no word of complaint of the Romans subjection of Gaul or Iberia or Carthage? Earlier today you shed copious tears about the Saxons but now, not even a care for the Averni. Damn Charlemagne, but Julius Caesar, glorious! glorious!

Its only claim to fame is that it happened to be the religion of the greatest military power in the history of mankind.

And, of course, that without Christianity the glories of antiquity would have been driven into the dust by the yokel heathens to the north, rather than preserved and perfected.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 5:09 pm
re the ABC funding boost:

The broadcaster is also investigating the introduction of a fact-checking unit.

WTF?

Isn’t that what the fricken news people are supposed to do now?

Maybe they could use their well earned breaks ™(MWD) to check the facts.

duncanm

7 Feb 13 at 5:10 pm
You are quite mad as well as being a thoroughly vile man Yobbo.

Yep, correcting CL’s never-ending lies and half-truths in defense of his favourite supernatural being makes me insane.

I’d actually be interested to know if JamesK has ever contributed anything to this site except insults.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 5:11 pm
Damn Charlemagne, but Julius Caesar, glorious! glorious!

Believe whatever the hell you like.

.

7 Feb 13 at 5:11 pm
He later became antagonistic to the hierarchical nature of the Catholic church, but he always remained Christian and was never even close to Atheism. Ever.

Yobbo, this is contradicted by your own link above as I demonstrate in my quotation above with the appropriate emphasis.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 5:13 pm
And, of course, that without Christianity the glories of antiquity would have been driven into the dust by the yokel heathens to the north

It was actually the other way around. Christians under Charlemagne undertook an orgy of iconoclasm in Saxony and Scandinavia that lasted decades, if not centuries.

The Romans were preserving the works of antiquity long before they became Christians.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 5:14 pm
Good afternoon Sinclair,

Do you think a new ‘Religous Wars’ thread might be started? Or is this it?

If the latter, could we have a new thread for ‘Anything Other Than Religious Wars’?

Kindest regards, Septimus

Septimus

7 Feb 13 at 5:15 pm
Yobbo, this is contradicted by your own link above as I demonstrate in my quotation above with the appropriate emphasis.

I could quote the parts that agree with me if you like, but I think linking to it is enough, since it’s a pretty long article and anyone who is actually interested can read the whole thing themselves.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 5:15 pm
Sorry dot, but if you are going to complain about Charlemagne’s conquest of Saxony but offer not a bit of complaint about the Roman conquest of Iberia, Gaul and Carthage you cannot be surprised if I point out the stunning moral and intellectual hypocrisy.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 5:18 pm
I’d be more grateful for Catholics “saving” western civilisation if they hadn’t played a big hand in ending that same civilisation before hand, what with the closing of the philosophy schools in Greece and the end of religious tolerance in the Empire.

Islam also wouldn’t have got any foothold outside of Arabia were it not for the made desire to impose catholic orthodoxy on the “heretics” of the West (ie, Arians) and the East (Monothelitism).

Quentin George

7 Feb 13 at 5:19 pm
Its only claim to fame is that it happened to be the religion of the greatest military power in the history of mankind.

I’d guess that the Soviets ruled over a larger territory.

The truth of the matter is, if Constantine had never decided to make Christianity the official religion of Rome, nobody would ever have heard of it.

Stalin was an actually an atheist.

Foolowing that line of argument, atheism should have spread and be continuing to spread like wildfire through the former Soviet Republics.

Ivan Denisovich

7 Feb 13 at 5:19 pm
Sorry dot, but if you are going to complain about Charlemagne’s conquest of Saxony but offer not a bit of complaint about the Roman conquest of Iberia, Gaul and Carthage you cannot be surprised if I point out the stunning moral and intellectual hypocrisy.

…how…because I think Julius Caesar was a paragon of virtue?

What the fuck made you think that?

I have repeated myself that until a few hundred years ago, even the enlightened West was ruled over by bloodthirsty dickheads.

Please learn to familiarise yourself with other people’s arguments before you carelessly bandy about phrases like “caricature”.

.

7 Feb 13 at 5:23 pm
Could someone please tell me how many Catholics there are in Australia and how this number was arrived at? I’ve heard conflicting claims, some of them seemingly inflated.

Fisky

7 Feb 13 at 5:27 pm
I could quote the parts that agree with me if you like…

That would be tendentious. You could have just summarized or quoted the judgement of scholars in this area as I did but that wouldn’t have suited the argument your running.

It was actually the other way around. Christians under Charlemagne undertook an orgy of iconoclasm in Saxony and Scandinavia that lasted decades, if not centuries.

Yes, they were cutting down sacred trees, but they were also absorbing parts of heathen culture and creating new festivals, as they did in England and Ireland and elsewhere.

The Romans were preserving the works of antiquity long before they became Christians.

Of course, the Christians in the West were Romans. They took up the baton against the repeated invasion of Roman lands from the North and East.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 5:28 pm
Just to change the subject slightly, did anyone else notice that m0nster made a drive-by appearance on the Mrs Magoo thread today?
He is obviously lurking around these parts but hasn’t had the balls to stick his head up since the Newspoll numbers on Monday.
I can’t wait to see how truly pathetic he is after the only poll that counts later on this year.

Huckleberry Chunkwot

7 Feb 13 at 5:28 pm
Foolowing that line of argument, atheism should have spread and be continuing to spread like wildfire through the former Soviet Republics.

It probably would have, if Stalin had reigned for 1000 years, and had burned more people alive instead of just trying to make them atheists by way of propaganda.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 5:29 pm
No James. It’s CL whose only argument ever on this subject is “HITLER AND STALIN WERE ATHEISTS!

Well he’s right!

Some argue Hitler was a theist it’s clear he is no believer in a judeo-christian God.

He rightly saw the Catholic church as his enemy and successfully (and much to the Church’s shame) the ‘Concordat’ was signed in 1933.

Under the Concordat, the church was guaranteed autonomy of ecclesiastical institutions and their religious activities but had to cease political activities.

Under the Concordat, German Bishops agreed to swear an oath of loyalty to Nazi Germany

But despite leftist revisionism Pius was a hero not a villain particularly with respect to Mussolini’s and Hitler’s treatment of Jews.

There’s no point in being vile and absolutist and then subsequently affecting reasonableness and moderation only after the blow-back Yobbo.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 5:30 pm
If the latter, could we have a new thread for ‘Anything Other Than Religious Wars’?

So you looking forward to the Guns debate dominating the OT?

Token

7 Feb 13 at 5:30 pm
For fucks sake give it a rest on religion. Lets get back to ridiculing this clusterfuck of a government, more fun and everyone can play.

Sinc, please end the religious comments or give them a new thread. Also how are your mighty bombers looking? Tried placing money on them for the spoon yesterday but betting was suspended.

harrys on the boat

7 Feb 13 at 5:34 pm
So you looking forward to the Guns debate dominating the OT?

I liked Henson Ong – Legal Immigrant’s speech on 2nd Amendment
Gun Violence Prevention Working Group Public Hearing – Hartford, CT – 1/28/2013

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 5:34 pm
Please learn to familiarise yourself with other people’s arguments before you carelessly bandy about phrases like “caricature”.

dot, your response to Yobbo’s:

It was the Roman empire that was spectacular and glorious, not Christianity.

was “that is entirely the point”. To which I then made the observation that you find so offensive for reasons that escape me given what you’ve said.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 5:34 pm
It probably would have, if Stalin had reigned for 1000 years, and had burned more people alive instead of just trying to make them atheists by way of propaganda.

Constantine didn’t rule for a thousand years and plenty were killed or imprisoned for their religious beliefs in the Soviet Union.

Ivan Denisovich

7 Feb 13 at 5:35 pm
Constantine didn’t rule for a thousand years

No, but the Catholic Church did.

Stalinism was only in vogue for about 20 years. They probably would have converted more people given another few hundred years.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 5:40 pm
Well, we can be certain that Stalinism certainly killed more people in those twenty years than all Christian rulers combined did in those thousand years.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 5:45 pm
You have to laugh that anyone really thinks the irish saved western civilisation. Byzantium anyone? There was a reason the book was so small.

Pedro

7 Feb 13 at 5:47 pm
“Well, we can be certain that Stalinism certainly killed more people in those twenty years than all Christian rulers combined did in those thousand years.”

Yes, we’re all agreed that stalinism is yucky, but that says nothing about atheists.

Pedro

7 Feb 13 at 5:49 pm
BTW, the idea that the Church was ‘ruling’ in England or France or Germany or Spain or Hungary in the 800s or 1100s or 1300s is just ahistorical nonsense.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 5:50 pm
No, but the Catholic Church did.

Stalinism was only in vogue for about 20 years. They probably would have converted more people given another few hundred years.

Your argument, though, is that it was down to Constantine’s intervention. The parallels are there, but not the success. Quite the contrary. There has been growth in religious belief and observance.

Ivan Denisovich

7 Feb 13 at 5:53 pm
True, but the church was a big player and shares lots of responsibility.

Pedro

7 Feb 13 at 5:55 pm
Well, we can be certain that Stalinism certainly killed more people in those twenty years than all Christian rulers combined did in those thousand years.

Stalinism was eradicated though (except in North Korea I guess).

The catholic church is still killing millions of people every year by forbidding them from using condoms to prevent HIV.

And yet, some people still think it’s a wonderful organisation.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 5:57 pm
BTW, the idea that the Church was ‘ruling’ in England or France or Germany or Spain or Hungary in the 800s or 1100s or 1300s is just ahistorical nonsense.

Um, what? Ever heard of the investiture controversy? The Pope was able to make the most powerful secular European ruler wait in the snowing nothing but a hair-shirt until he was forgiven. The Church was the only, I repeat, only trans-national power in Europe. The power it wielded under fellows like Innocent III was immense. The Catholic Church and its priests were untouchable by the secular rulers, and remained so for centuries. That’s power.

Quentin George

7 Feb 13 at 5:58 pm
You have to laugh that anyone really thinks the irish saved western civilisation. Byzantium anyone?

I’m not familiar with the book but it is true that Irish monks returned to western parts of the Empire that fell to ruin following the Germanic invasions of the fifth century to re-build the institutions that would latter form an important part of the European civilization. That they saved it is most likely an exaggeration. Byzantium more or less gave up the Western half of its empire. I don’t blame them as they were under the hammer themselves.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 5:58 pm
Sorry, for “…snowing…” read “…snow wearing…”.

Quentin George

7 Feb 13 at 5:59 pm
Well, we can be certain that Stalinism certainly killed more people in those twenty years than all Christian rulers combined did in those thousand years.

Economies of scale: Population sizes PLUS technological advances.

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 5:59 pm
DB – I have digested all of Brown’s book on The Rise of Western Christendom that Amazon have let me have as a taste online – there is no Kindle version, as with so many of these must-have reads on history etc. I’m sure there is a market? I will have to order it in via mail.

I like the bit ‘the sheer excitement of men of the pen of the sixth, seventh and eighth centures as they set about to create for themselves an orderly and ‘usable’ view of the origins of their own tribes’. It’s no secret that a lot of editing went on too: see The Eddas, which bear signs of strong Christianisation; also Beowulf. Bede libelled Celtic Christianity too, in favour of his Roman preference and Anglo-Saxon being. Thus the Irish and the Welsh even today carry that mark or stain of ‘cowardice’ and ‘foolishness’ which possibly traces back to Bede’s attack on them for not doing more to Christianise the early Saxons Kingdoms (the Cornish, by being slipped into England, seem to have escaped). The warrior Scottish were – well- a bit Scottish about being messed with, and are still so, merely carrying the stain of parsimony.

I have been getting into the Latin (and other things) in the work of C5th Gildas – “On the Ruin of Britain”; a work sorely misinterpreted as even vaguely historical (historian Nicholas Higham would agree with me there in his very good book on the C9th Historia Brittonum, a text which sources from Gildas). Gildas’s De Exidio Britanniae is certainly a Biblical redemptive Jerimiad. But I want to show too how it is metaphorical in quite another way, and that what it is being metaphorical about can help us to rewrite some C5th history, with the aid of a few legends or two, some genetics, some archaeology, some further ancient textual analysis about a poor little C9th monk’s ‘scribal error’ that is not really an error (Lizzie to his rescue) even though his tiny hand was frozen, and some further linguistics from Lizzie. Pelagianism is relevant of course, but again, not the whole story.

The Pinenne Thesis mentioned by Brown (in outline) gave the Germanics no quarter in the cultural stakes, and of course this is where I come in – to say that syncretisms were everywhere, but in my view there was a big battle over one syncretic element that really caused trouble. What was the name that Percival could not mention in the Grail legends, and why did it matter so much? I know what it was and why it mattered. Cryptic, eh?

James – I have read that book on how the Irish saved civilisation. It is excellent. In Ireland I went to the Dingle peninsula and looked at the Gallus Oratory and all the little beehive huts and imagined the monks all copying out their Plato, plateless in the squalor. Amazing stuff.

You don’t have to tell me how great the Irish are.

Dot – too many books to read, true, and John H yes, da blogs can be da problem at times, and with all the reading and ideas you run into the wood and trees problem, so I am going to try and refocus to the bare bones of what I want to say and leave others to do the clever work of academic fencing and footnoting. Blogstop and Rabz advised: put some sex into it. Somehow I might manage that too.

I have to write this as Lizzie, as myself. My thesis is about the significance of a name, of names and naming. I hope this may explain some of my petulance lately over my own name.

And Gab, if it doesn’t bloody well get written this year I will dump it and write what everyone else does. Biography 101.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

7 Feb 13 at 6:04 pm
“For fucks sake give it a rest on religion.”

No harrys on the boat, no! I want more! Bring in the B-doubles and the supertankers delivering more on religion.

Anyway it’s only been going for 24 hours – give ‘em a chance ‘cos it’s the right thing to do (Comrade Lying Slapper™).

I have an abiding affection for the Roman Catholic faith, love the Mass and I’m not minded to argue the toss about that here. Nonetheless I do enjoy reading the passionate and sometimes mad arguments here, and the evidence offered, for matters on which, for Mick, the science is settled!

Mick Gold Coast QLD

7 Feb 13 at 6:06 pm
Well, we can be certain that Stalinism certainly killed more people in those twenty years than all Christian rulers combined did in those thousand years.

Economies of scale: Population sizes PLUS technological advances.

Do try and desist being a dumbfuck Abu.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 6:13 pm
The catholic church is still killing millions of people every year by forbidding them from using condoms to prevent HIV.

LOL. Yes, those poor promiscuous sods are routinely flouting one of the Church’s teaching only to faithfully follow the other.

Um, what? Ever heard of the investiture controversy?

Yes, I have, I’ve pointed to this precisely to prove this point. If they indeed did ‘rule’ there would have been no controversy. Apparently, we should be shocked that the Church would want to appoint bishops and abbots themselves rather than have this performed by the local secular ruler.

The Pope was able to make the most powerful secular European ruler wait in the snowing nothing but a hair-shirt until he was forgiven.

Yes, wonderful, isn’t it. Libertarians wet their pants from joy when Packer fronted the Senate and treated them with contempt but the Pope telling this or that King that he, not they, will appoint members of his own organisation is an affront to the dignity of kings and princes. FM.

The Church was the only, I repeat, only trans-national power in Europe. The power it wielded under fellows like Innocent III was immense. The Catholic Church and its priests were untouchable by the secular rulers, and remained so for centuries. That’s power.

Not quite. Thomas Beckett, the Archbishop of Canterbury, for instance, was not quite untouchable and was murdered by the King’s men during the investiture controversy.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 6:16 pm
Have you ever heard more wank in your life than all these shrieking banshees banging on about match fixing and drugs in sport?

That fascist gnomelike shit stain Senator Xylophone has called for all gambling to be immediately suspended.

What a load of cobblers.

Infidel Tiger

7 Feb 13 at 6:17 pm
Well, we can be certain that Stalinism certainly killed more people in those twenty years than all Christian rulers combined did in those thousand years.

No, we cannot be sure of that at all. The 30 Years’ War led to a dramatic fall in the population of Central Europe through battle casualties, starvation and disease, perhaps not quite equal in proportion to the Black Death.

Fisky

7 Feb 13 at 6:18 pm
Nothing like a moral panic to get statist politicians in a lather, IT. They have to justify their existence somehow. How about we leave the regulation of sport to the administrators of those sports eh?

tbh

7 Feb 13 at 6:19 pm
The catholic church is still killing millions of people every year by forbidding them from using condoms to prevent HIV.

I didn’t know all those barebacking homos were such devout Catholics?

I’m curious as to why they listened to the Church on not using contraception but not on abstinence?

Infidel Tiger

7 Feb 13 at 6:19 pm
Is I in moderation?

Septimus

7 Feb 13 at 6:20 pm
Lizzie, the latest edition of Brown’s The Rise of Western Christendom is available on Kindle.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 6:22 pm
if it doesn’t bloody well get written this year I will dump it and write what everyone else does. Biography 101.

If, you say? Charming; after you captured my interest now you tell me it may not happen. But then, the pressure of expectation from your readership can overwhelm and stifle the creative process. You’ll have to forgive my enthusiasm, stemming from regret that I simply cannot write as brilliantly as some, yet can recognise literary exceptionalness in others. See Dot, I’m not totally “braindead”. But I’ll harass you no more on your progress. I’ll be like Percival 2.0

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 6:23 pm
I had a interesting conversation with a friend in the oil and gas business in the US.

He reckons that carmakers are working on engines that you will be able to fill from the gas line to the home.

Oil to gas is the biggest short of a lifetime.

JC

7 Feb 13 at 6:25 pm
I didn’t know all those barebacking homos were such devout Catholics?

Actually ope Benedict said:

…sheer fixation on the condom implies a banalisation of sexuality, which, after all, is precisely the dangerous source of the attitude of no longer seeing sexuality as the expression of love, but only a sort of drug that people administer to themselves…There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralisation, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanisation of sexuality.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 6:27 pm
Actually Pope Benedict said:

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 6:28 pm
He reckons that carmakers are working on engines that you will be able to fill from the gas line to the home.

Yeah!

All that would be required is a compressor and tank.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 6:30 pm
I didn’t know all those barebacking homos were such devout Catholics?

The 42 million Africans living with HIV/AIDS are not homos. They are mostly heterosexual Catholics who have been told by their church:

A:) Condoms are a sin
B:) Condoms don’t stop AIDS anyway, so why use them.
C:) Condoms increase HIV risk because condoms make people have sex more.

I’m curious as to why they listened to the Church on not using contraception but not on abstinence?

Because abstinence is against human nature. Abstinence education doesn’t even work in Western Countries. It is completely unrealistic.

However, obeying the order not to use condoms is much easier for most people, as nobody actually likes wearing condoms anyway.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 6:34 pm
In what way was I being a “dumb fuck”, JamesK?

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 6:35 pm
Insults are all JamesK has.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 6:38 pm
Lizzie, the latest edition of Brown’s The Rise of Western Christendom is available on Kindle.

For $35 on kindle it would want to come complete with links to the winning lotto numbers.

nilk

7 Feb 13 at 6:41 pm
Now, why don’t you regale me with more tales of how evil we Christians are and how badly Western Civilization has suffered due to Christianity alone.

More tales Gab? I haven’t regaled you with any yet.

Modern Western Christianity is not evil. However for a large part of its history it was. The period when Christianity was at its most powerful was called the dark ages. The Spanish Inquisition went from 1477 – 1834. There were also Medieval, Roman and Portugese inquisitions.

Despite this, Modern Western Christianity has evolved into a civilizing influence on society. I believe this is mainly due to the seperation of Church and state.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 6:43 pm
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january_february_2013/features/wholesome_millennialsblack_bro042170.php

Great trends in the US among young people over the last 20 years – lower use of hard drugs, fewer teenage pregnancies, more abstinence and better high school retention. Teenagers of all races are living far cleaner lifestyles than their parents did.

Fisky

7 Feb 13 at 6:44 pm
Also, millenial generation are less religious than previous generations, so evidently they have found a way to reconcile a conservative lifestyle with secularism and non-crankery.

Fisky

7 Feb 13 at 6:49 pm
Thanks DB for the info. I just checked and there is a whole $2 difference between the Kindle edition and the DeLuxe Paperback. I know there are mailing costs, but I think I’d prefer to have the actual book in my hot little hands – easier to flip through, nicer to read in the bath (have to read the kindle in a glad bag), and I can write my margin notes and underline more easily on paper(no-one would ever want to purchase my library as I wreck books).

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

7 Feb 13 at 6:50 pm
The 42 million Africans living with HIV/AIDS are not homos. They are mostly heterosexual Catholics who have been told by their church

to not have sex with anyone but their wives, and yet they ignore this teaching but faithfully observe the other.

However, obeying the order not to use condoms is much easier for most people, as nobody actually likes wearing condoms anyway.

Which is effectively to say that they would ignore any such order in much the same way that they ignore the requirement of being faithful to their wives.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 6:59 pm
B:) Condoms don’t stop AIDS anyway, so why use them.
C:) Condoms increase HIV risk because condoms make people have sex more.

Dear oh dear. I wish you’d stop getting you information from the rantings of Hitch. Look, condoms have a 14-15% failure rate. Abstinence 0% failure. Now you can rabbit on all you like about human nature, sexuality, desire, force, want etc, but people make their own choices. Like choosing to be in a particular religion,or not, following that religion, or not.

The 42 million Africans living with HIV/AIDS are not homos. They are mostly heterosexual Catholics…

LOL. You know for certain that 42 million Africans with HIV/AIDs are Catholics? None of them from any other religion and no atheists, of course. The World Book Encyclopedia states Islam as the majority religion in Africa (more’s the pity). So by your reckoning, no other group/religion is spreading AIDS in Africa other than heterosexual Catholics. That’s some wild turkey right there.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 7:00 pm
Oh, FFS.
Shutup.

Winston SMITH

7 Feb 13 at 7:03 pm
Ladies please, stop the squabbling.

This isn’t that sort of blog.

JC

7 Feb 13 at 7:04 pm
The drugs thing surprises me. I would guess that a lot of kids have substituted legal drugs for illegal in the past decade or two.

You couldn’t get stuff like Ritalin before the mid 90′s.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 7:05 pm
I agree that you can’t blame the african aides problem on the pope. But the funny thing early is the argument about whether christians or commies killed more people. Is that the stupidest argument to make or what? The church isn’t made moral by confirming the lower body count. If you want to argue the value of the church, “we murdered less” is not the place to start or finish. Once you’ve agreed the murdering at all, you’ve acknowledged a great deal of evil.

Pedro

7 Feb 13 at 7:06 pm
Yobbo

All Africans have to do is stop having so many freaking sex partners. Keep it at a manageable level and AIDS would be less of an issue.

And stop smoking the the AIDS medications would also be a great help relieve the suffering.

JC

7 Feb 13 at 7:08 pm
In what way was I being a “dumb fuck”, JamesK?

It’s evident, Abu.

There is little in human experience to match the viciousness or scale of the governmental mass murder than Lenin’s and more so Stalin’s USSR.

Mao and Pol Pot are close but the USSR and Mao had agricultural policy in addition to direct mass murder which killed millions more.

It is facilely inane in the extreme to make them morally equivalent to pre-20 th century Christianity.

Yeah but for population and technology those people would have massacred 100 million and starved 40 million more.

The fact this has to be explained to you on demand doubles your dumbfuckery but par for the course for Yobbo

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 7:09 pm
None of them from any other religion and no atheists, of course. The World Book Encyclopedia states Islam as the majority religion in Africa

Africa includes North Africa. The majority of the AIDs epidemic is in sub-saharan Africa, where Christianity is the dominant religion.

no other group/religion is spreading AIDS in Africa other than heterosexual Catholics

No other religion is telling people not to wear condoms. Not even Islam.

It’s pretty despicable to depths you will go to excuse the crimes of religion. Earlier we had CL claiming that Europe was converted peacefully by the beauty of the holy spirit. Now here’s Gab claiming the catholic church has nothing to do with HIV/AIDs. And even if it did…look, muslims!

I hope you realise that to us, you sound like the people who are still trying to defend communism.

Yobbo

7 Feb 13 at 7:14 pm
I find whenever there is a debate about Hitler, the best point of reference is The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer.

Shirer was a correspondent in Germany from the election of the Nazis to America entered the War in 1941. After the war he was given access to the Nazi records and wrote his book after 15 years of research.

Anyhoo, with reference to religion during the period 1933 – 37 he makes the following points summarised below:

Hitler was nominally a Catholic;
Hitler attacked both the Catholic and Protestant Church in Mein Kampf;
Article 24 of the Nazi Party program demanded ‘liberty for all denominations so long as they are not a danger to … the moral feelings of the German Race. The party stands for positive Christianity;
Hitler promised to respect the rights of Christians;
The Nazis concluded a concordant with the Catholic Church which they promptly broke;
They dissolved the Catholic Youth League;
They arrested thousands of Catholic priests, nuns and lay leaders;
Most Protestants supported the Nazis in the 1933 elections;
Using intimidation, the Nazis rigged elections for the leader of the Protestants to form a new ‘Reich Church’;
The Nazis purged the church of anti Nazis and it came under its total control;
Himmler Rosenberg and Bormann, with Hitler’s backing, intended to destroy Christianity in Germany and replace it with the early paganism of the old German gods and the new paganism of the Nazis;
During the war, under Rosenberg’s direction the Nazis declared that they intended to exterminate the Christian faiths from Germany and replace the Bible with Mein Kampf.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 7:14 pm
Athiets amuse me deeply, for they spend far more time discussing religion than anyone else.

And it’s normally as laughably shallow and suprficial as the utter tripe Yobbo is babbling about so incoherently.

Amazing how he’s all het up about matter which occurred 1,200 years ago, and rather more silent on the religious war and civil war which has been raging for the last 60 years, and which is getting very, very much worse right now.

But of course, that one only involves Christians as victims, so that does not count.

Same old same old, athiest bigotry, ignorance and hypocrisy on public display.

Nothing unusual, move along, move along.

Nothing worth seeing here.

Mk50 of Brisbane

7 Feb 13 at 7:18 pm
replace it with the early paganism of the old German gods and the new paganism of the Nazis;

An unpleasant mix.

The new paganism is alive and well in the Gaia-hugging Greenies too.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

7 Feb 13 at 7:18 pm
The period when Christianity was at its most powerful was called the dark ages.

jupes, the Church was at it most powerful during High Medieval period through to the Renaissance. At least three hundred years after the ‘Dark Ages’ and even they weren’t that ‘dark’.

Lizzie, nilk, yes, I would buy the print rather than the kindle edition too in your position. I’ve come across a number of books with only a slight difference in price bewtween editions and always go for the print.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 7:22 pm
Hmm … maybe the link to Peggy Lee singing ‘Mañana’ was a bit dodgy … apologies if so, Sinc. Should have gone with Dean Martin instead. Ah well, midnight approaches … perhaps a new less intense fred will materialise then.

Septimus

7 Feb 13 at 7:23 pm
Now here’s Gab claiming the catholic church has nothing to do with HIV/AIDs.

I said no such thing, however I don’t believe the Cathoilc Church had anything to do with AIDS developing anywhere. Your comment is as awesome as your Obama’s pastor telling us the CIA developed the AIDs virus to kill blacks.

And even if it did…look, muslims!

Sorry, didn’t mean to disparage your precious Islam. I was merely pointing out how ridiculous your statement that all 42 million people with HIV/AIDS in Africa are heterosexual Catholics.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 7:25 pm
The “Aids in Africa” thing is less to do with the religion of those infected, or the geography, and everything to do with race.

Steve at the Pub

7 Feb 13 at 7:25 pm
The new paganism

Nothing wrong with consulting the Runes.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 7:26 pm
From the “Humanity is awesome” Department, the best of 2012 in video form:

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/02/this-is-probably-the-best-video-on-youtube-like-ever/

tbh

7 Feb 13 at 7:27 pm
Da Hairy Irish Ape just got in and I greet him verbally while he deposits his briefcase and meanwhile I realise it is time for a drink. I pour myself a very nice glass of red and move in with the glass for the hug. He does not rebuff me, but sort of bleats like a little caught lamb.

Don’t pour dat all over me, Lizzie, he pleads in genuine anguish, remembering what I can do with a full glass.

As if. I have been defending the cultural colours of the Irish this afternoon, I tell him to show him that I am on top of things today.

He should be pleased.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

7 Feb 13 at 7:32 pm
Pope Benedict said: sheer fixation on the condom implies a banalisation of sexuality

Does it? I guess he’d know having such extensive experience.

Adrien

7 Feb 13 at 7:36 pm
Does it? I guess he’d know having such extensive experience.

One can always rely on Adrien to prove the point he’s pathetically endeavouring to rebut

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 7:47 pm
The drugs thing surprises me. I would guess that a lot of kids have substituted legal drugs for illegal in the past decade or two.

Drug use moves around a great deal Yobbo with no clear explanation as to why that happens. So what we are seeing now could well reverse in the coming decades.

If Pinker’s argument re declining violence over the centuries is to be believed and he does have a good argument, then the increasing secularisation of society over the last 100 years and the loss of religious affiliation that continues into this century suggests that people are quite capable of being moral without religion. So argue all you like about who is the most evil but remember that if this trend continues religion will become irrelevant to the question of violence in society.

John H.

7 Feb 13 at 7:48 pm
. If you want to argue the value of the church, “we murdered less” is not the place to start or finish

Funnily enough, I think you may be talking sense here Pedro.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

7 Feb 13 at 7:49 pm
Let’s talk about frocks

Tal

7 Feb 13 at 7:50 pm
He doesn’t need extensive personal experience, he just needs to survey the scene before him. He has, and he’s right.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 7:50 pm
As if. I have been defending the cultural colours of the Irish this afternoon, I tell him to show him that I am on top of things today.

Yeah the Irish. I’m half Irish and thankfully not the half that likes to drink because I want my brain to keep producing new brain cells and even moderate drinking knocks that down by circa 40%.

John H.

7 Feb 13 at 7:52 pm
Have you ever heard more wank in your life than all these shrieking banshees banging on about match fixing and drugs in sport?

That fascist gnomelike shit stain Senator Xylophone has called for all gambling to be immediately suspended.

What a load of cobblers.

As I suspected, today’s confected drama was 90% pure electioneering bullshit by the Gillard rabble.

On SEN radio in Melbourne, presenter Mark Fine has just gone through Sports MInister Kate Lumdy’s speech line by line and exposed it as a giant beat-up with the Australian Crime Commission uncovering one possible case of match-fixing in the past year.

It will become apparent in the next few days that it was all piss and wind enabled by Fauxfacts and Their ABC for political purposes in an election year.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 7:54 pm
The 7.30 Report has just spent most of its half hour putting people to sleep with droning on about drugs in sport. Now at the final five minutes they’ve decided to do that other small “filler” story, the ICAC inquiry.

blogstrop

7 Feb 13 at 7:55 pm
I want my brain to keep producing new brain cells

Even your brain stopped producing new brain cells a long time ago John.

In early intra-uterine life in fact.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 7:55 pm
Interesting John. I wonder though if the decline in violence is more to do with an increased standard of living, which might also have a lot to do with the decrease in interest in religion.

I wonder, come the day when civilisation ends, which my death metal listening offsider seems to await with considerable eagerness perhaps exceeded only by Steve Keen, whether christian groups would be less violent to live in than irreligious ones?

Entropy

7 Feb 13 at 7:58 pm
Here’s the stupidest article written this year:

http://www.theage.com.au/business/carbon-economy/rising-risk-prices-out-new-coalfired-plants-report-20130207-2e0s4.html

Demand for electricity, meanwhile, continues to trend lower. Usage in NSW is at 10-year lows and Victoria at eight-year lows according to data for the December-January period, said Mike Sandiford, director of the Melbourne Energy Institute.

Electricity demand in the National Electricity Market is running about 16 per cent short of the amount regulators in the middle of the last decade expected current levels to be.

‘‘Nobody in their right mind would be building coal-fired power plants now,’’ Professor Sandiford said.

They think this is a good thing. Wankers.

Infidel Tiger

7 Feb 13 at 7:58 pm
Even your brain stopped producing new brain cells a long time ago John.

In early intra-uterine life in fact.

Are you being a smart arse or ill-informed? There is over a decade of studies showing neurogenesis does occur in adult brains. One of the more surprising, and pleasing findings, is that even astrocytes can morph into neurons let alone the recent claims that dopaminergic neurons are also created in adulthood.

John H.

7 Feb 13 at 7:59 pm
Oh Lizzie

Sometimes they just get tired and did you pour himself one too at the same time as you moved in for the hug?

Men are funny creatures. My hubby is an avid book reader and sometimes in the middle of the night. He likes doing starnge things in the middle of the night and has always hept a mobile workstation in the bedroom (which has at times, over the years made we want to kill him, but really I like (no love) his work ethic and have got used to the rustling of paper as I go to sleep – strangely comforting to know someone is beavering away in the house).

When I go to bed for a cuddle now (forget the rest except occasionally – too many times already and we are both slowing down) – if he is caught in a gripper of a book – he takes off as soon as I get in to bed and says “I really like this book Im reading so I’m sleeping in the other bed in case I want to read it in the middle of the night.” I just go OK baby.

He knows I like my sleep right through not interrupted by kindle lightsor rustlings etc but him – well he is prone to 2 hour spurts where he works away, reads, wanders, eats, watches TV etc in da middle of da night!!. Forever since Ive known him, quite bizarre.

It used to infuriate me when I was syounger and sleep deprived after i had my son (I was so desperate for sleep I used to imagine he was waking me up on purpose to torture me further) because after he wandered about for an hour or two making noise in the night – I couldnt get back to sleep for another two hours after he woke me and after he had gone back to sleep.

I used to think he was possessed and used to get so mad at being woken by a man who wandered the house in the small hours.

He does that for me now Lizzie – he warns me he is likely to wake and vacates to the spare bed (thank goodness)…Im as grumpy as a bear if I dont get enuff sleep.

We have learned to live together.

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 8:03 pm
Are you being a smart arse or ill-informed?

Ill-informed if adult neurogenesis is anything other than rare.

Human biology 101 was that neurocytes and cardiac myocytes don’t reproduce.

To my knowledhe only in laboratory conditions can they be made to reproduce.

People who recover from a stroke or a spinal cord injury for example not because neurocytes reproduce but because injured cells recover.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 8:06 pm
I wonder though if the decline in violence is more to do with an increased standard of living, which might also have a lot to do with the decrease in interest in religion.

You got it dude. I share that view. We live in a culture that still thinks thinking is the overwhelming factor in driving behavior. Environmental contingencies have huge impacts on behavior.

And yes, I did read a text which claimed that frequency of religion is related to the standard of living. If we want to reduce the more unpleasant aspects of human behavior raising the standard of living is the most efficacious way to do that.

John H.

7 Feb 13 at 8:07 pm
Lizzie, funnily enough, I agree with Pedro as well on that point. I take it for granted that institutions are going to get up to mischief, but in judging them, I want to see the restraint they imposed on themselves, and what they achieved over the duration that would otherwise have not been achieved. I think the Church survives such an examination as does the British Empire and the Roman Republic, as well, for instance.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 8:10 pm
Why would any international crime syndicate waste their time on AFL?
A gay little domestic game that no one cares about outside melbourne.

jumpnmcar

7 Feb 13 at 8:10 pm
And the Bombers fly high!!

jumpnmcar

7 Feb 13 at 8:12 pm
Ill-informed if adult neurogenesis is anything other than rare.

Still rare James but clearly still very important for memory consolidation. Not just the dentate gyrus though, the SVZ also produces neurons and a fascinating study earlier this year found that these neural precursors have a distinct preference for becoming GABA neurons. That was an experiment in relation to neuropathic pain, they transplanted these neurons into the DRG and presto the pain markers went down in the animals. The olfactory bulb is contentious, at least in humans, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it is also a source.

The really weird stuff is how some of the neural progenitors from the DG can migrate all the way to the neocortex(chimp study).

Eg. but lots of this:

Anesthesiology. 2013 Jan 11. [Epub ahead of print]
Propofol Anesthesia Impairs the Maturation and Survival of Adult-born Hippocampal Neurons.
Adult neurogenesis occurs in the hippocampus of most mammals, including humans, and plays an important role in hippocampal-dependent learning.

John H.

7 Feb 13 at 8:12 pm
If we want to reduce the more unpleasant aspects of human behavior raising the standard of living is the most efficacious way to do that.

Raising the standard of living of Islamists apparently does nothing to slow their will to kill weak decadent Westerners who smugly believe both that they should be wealthy whilst simultaneously championing policies that cause deprivation and misery

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 8:13 pm
Give us a spell, Jump. Thanks to the religious and anti-religious warriors for poisoning the water here today. Worst open thread for the past 12 months.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 8:14 pm
Well James K

I might just agree with this comment

“will to kill weak decadent Westerners who smugly believe both that they should be wealthy whilst simultaneously championing policies that cause deprivation and misery”

Hmmmm yes. I might agree.

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 8:15 pm
Regarding religion. God alone knows.

stackja

7 Feb 13 at 8:17 pm
Give us a spell, Jump.

Just trying to change to a more interesting subject Tom.
No joy in the present one.

jumpnmcar

7 Feb 13 at 8:18 pm
James

Thats the problem when the will of governments moves from civilised industrialisation to regulatory capture to de-industrialision where only the few are rewarded at the expense of the majority (ie the wealth of the few captures the regulatory process and causes a drain on the majority).
If we have electoral processes that are not simultaneously captured (and I dont think we do) it will only get worse before it gets better.

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 8:20 pm
Give us a spell

Jump may not know any. I do:

Fill your cauldron half full of water and drop a silver coin into it. Position the cauldron so that the light from the moon shines into the water. Gently sweep your
hands just above the surface, symbolically gathering the Moon’s silver.

While doing this say…

“Lovely Lady of the Moon, bring to me your
wealth right soon. Fill my hands with silver
and gold. All you give, my purse can hold.”

Repeat this three times. When finished, pour the water upon the earth.

Hope that helps

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 8:21 pm
“Raising the standard of living of Islamists apparently does nothing to slow their will to kill weak decadent Westerners who smugly believe both that they should be wealthy whilst simultaneously championing policies that cause deprivation and misery”

And if you looked at a 50 year snapshot of the Western cultural evolution from ignorant religiosity to the rational modern world you’d see it was different? They’re just doing the shit we did a few hundred years later, but the gap from the 30 years war to now is not so different in length from the gap from the Milvian Bridge to the explosion out of arabia.

Christianity had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world (and still hasn’t totally made it) so we should’nt be so surprised the muslims and hindus have their share of nutbags.

Pedro

7 Feb 13 at 8:23 pm
C’mon Tom, it’s helped me through my jet-lag no-end. I should be up to snuff tomorrow.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 8:24 pm
Global warming update:

Snowiest winter in 100 years paralyzes Moscow traffic for 3,500 km.

Boston: Snowstorm Friday Has Potential To Be Historic.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 8:27 pm
Dover what sort of frock do I need to buy,summer or winter?

Tal

7 Feb 13 at 8:30 pm
Regarding relgion?

What if you dont have one except one thing read once?

“Every atom that has been here since the big bang is still here and we dont go anywhere”.

Atoms just get recycled.
I think I think like Kerry Packer. There is nothing there.

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 8:31 pm
Athiets amuse me deeply, for they spend far more time discussing religion than anyone else.

Clearly not a deduction made on the basis of Catallaxy Files trends!

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 8:35 pm
from ignorant religiosity to the rational modern world

I’m surprised to see you support the Church here and particularly the work of the Dominicans.

Christianity had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world

Oh no! Wait!

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 8:36 pm
The period when Christianity was at its most powerful was called the dark ages.

The Christian world itself was greatly weakened in the Dark Ages. Remember the context of the time: territory from Syria to Spain was very rapidly lost to a completely new and alien enemy and the formerly peaceful Mediterranean became subject to raids (it was only Lepanto that ended that, nearly a thousand years later). To defeat a new and dangerous adversary, especially one driven by a potent ideology, it might be necessary to take on some of their ideas to survive, and so it can be argued that holy war and inquisition have Islamic antecedents – note that holy war first manifested itself in the Christian world in Spain, a country with the closest contact with Islam and at the pointy end in the struggle.

Andreas

7 Feb 13 at 8:36 pm
Not sure yet, Tal.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 8:39 pm
Oh for God’s sake Dover I’m sick of waiting

Tal

7 Feb 13 at 8:45 pm
Andreas

Havent most wars been sold to soldiers as holy wars in one form or another? I am to take it that religion or some form of it (adulation to a cause) has no greater power than to gather willing armies quickly who are prepared to act contrary to what the tennets of the religion they support, may preach (eg kindness, charity, subservience of self to a higher power etc)?

As if sacrifice of happiness and cold blooded murder in the present will yield peace in the future..

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 8:47 pm
They’re just doing the shit we did a few hundred years later

No they are not.

You are a fool.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 8:49 pm
Ahahaha, we haven’t set a date yet. Sorry, Tal. Oh, look, Nigella’s on, back in 10.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 8:50 pm
There is little in human experience to match the viciousness or scale of the governmental mass murder than Lenin’s and more so Stalin’s USSR.

I agree. I have at no time made any statement to suggest otherwise.

Mao and Pol Pot are close but the USSR and Mao had agricultural policy in addition to direct mass murder which killed millions more.

Mao killed more, actually. From, Mao, The Unknown Story, which I have here on my shelf:

Mao Tse-tung, who for decades held absolute power over the lives of one-quarter of the world’s population, was responsible for well over 70 million deaths in peacetime, more than any other twentieth century leader.

It is facilely inane in the extreme to make them morally equivalent to pre-20 th century Christianity.

I haven’t. I think Communism and Fascism are evil ideologies, and Cultural Materialism is even worse. I think that Christianity, having borrowed extensively from Judaism and Greek philosophy, has a lot to recommend it as a man-made way of creating good order, especially in it’s current heavily modified and constrained iteration.

No one is defending totalitarianism. No one is defending Fascism. No one is defending Communism. No one is contesting the fact that totalitarian regimes in the 20th century killed more than previous cults.

Yeah but for population and technology those people would have massacred 100 million and starved 40 million more.

Who knows? I think it’s clear that if Charlemagne could have killed 4,500 infidels in a day, it would be no great stretch to kill 40,000 or more. Why do you think that’s even controversial?

The fact this has to be explained to you on demand doubles your dumbfuckery but par for the course for Yobbo

What an angry little ant you are. You clearly take this very seriously. You appear to have been personally stung by Yobbo having the temerity to point out an uncontested fact: that Christianity in Europe and Latin America was spread by the sword, and by my unoriginal comment about economies of scale. Grow up, man. Have some self-respect. Not everyone is a “dumb fuck” if they disagree with you.

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 8:50 pm
Raising the standard of living of Islamists apparently does nothing to slow their will to kill weak decadent

Yeah but they are less violent now than in the days gone by. The issue is about the environment in which people are raised. Distribution of wealth is also an indicator of violence in society. The great virtue of modern societies is these allow many people at least the opportunity to rise from despair but in most Islamic countries it is still more like a feudal society with a ruling few dictating to the rest.

John H.

7 Feb 13 at 8:51 pm
where only t

he few are rewarded at the expense of the majority (ie the wealth of the few captures the regulatory process and causes a drain on the majority).

To be frank Aliice.

That’s meaningless leftist dross.

It’s indescribably inane.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 8:51 pm
Yeah but they are less violent now than in the days gone by

All evidence in the Middle East let alone jihad brought to the West informs us that you are wrong there.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 8:52 pm
Another year of nagging for you snoopy old son

Tal

7 Feb 13 at 8:53 pm
“I’m surprised to see you support the Church here and particularly the work of the Dominicans.”

Only an idiot would think that christianity had no role in the cultural evolution of the west. But I wouldn’t talk it up too much or forget that I don’t know the counterfactuals. The seed of the church fell on fertile ground in the greek and roman world and adapted to that environment as well as changing it. The israelite predecessors weren’t quite so impressive.

The modern world was created by christians, not churches.

Pedro

7 Feb 13 at 8:55 pm
JamesK on another wrong-a-thon. Read some history.

Pedro

7 Feb 13 at 8:59 pm
To reiterate:

I think that Christianity, having borrowed extensively from Judaism and Greek philosophy, has a lot to recommend it as a man-made way of creating good order, especially in its current heavily modified and constrained iteration.

Thank GOD civilization has moderated the rage of some Christians. Imagine the destructive power of someone who as an adult manifests his frustration at his powerlessness to influence others being handed the controls. JamesK’s infantile rage and abuse is all the proof I need. He’s like a Western version of that Islamic Rage Boy meme.

JamesK, calm down. While the image of you smashing out your angry little missives with the veins bulging at your temples is briefly amusing, I worry that it’s symptomatic of stress levels and a failure to cope in your real-world existence.

All I want is for you to be happy. M’kay?

Abu Chowdah

7 Feb 13 at 9:00 pm
Nigella is on? Im gone.

BS James “its meaningless leftist dross you stupid fool”

You are living the life of a westerner who thinks he is always going to be rich because you are western and living in the fucking pasr
- you who not a few mintess ago hand this to say?

“the islamists with a will to kill weak decadent Westerners who smugly believe both that they should be wealthy whilst simultaneously championing policies that cause deprivation and misery”

Make up you mind what you do or dont agree with James.

Dont call me a leftist you stupid jerk when I am not. The US is running plicies rar a de- industrialising. Australia like a small flock of bleating lambs without a brain are following orders from US textbooks and propaganda for burearcrats and too stupid to object.

Now bugger off James K.
Two seconds ago you were complaining about…what was it? Decadent westerners wasnt it?

Yet you idiot – you want to accuse me of leftist dross. I could accuse you of leftist dross also from your above comment.

You dont know where you are cmoing from do you? Or was the main point to comnplain solely about islamists?

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 9:01 pm
The modern world was created by christians, not churches.

Do you make up this inane dross up after a particularly deep lungful from the bong Pedro?

The Church is literally the assembly of Christians

Since the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church has been defined as a union of human beings who are united by the profession of the same Christian faith, and by participation of and in the same sacraments under the direction of their lawful pastors, especially of the one representative of Christ on earth, the Bishop of Rome.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 9:04 pm
I know, how bout the benefits of Islam.

jumpnmcar

7 Feb 13 at 9:10 pm
Remember how the lefty trolls told us endlessly that it is a good thing that electricity prices are going up…maybe this sad news will sting a few of the inner city luvvies…

A couple of weeks ago this site noted the shuttering of Danks Street Depot due to a number of factors, including higher power and refrigeration costs brought on by the carbon tax. Not surprisingly, Danks Street isn’t the only operation feeling the pinch:

Neil Perry runs four top restaurants in three states – NSW, Victoria and Western Australia. Food prices are one thing, he says. It’s the input costs that are the killer. Labour, transport, government red tape and energy. “My power costs have nearly doubled since last July,” Perry says. “Across the Rockpool group, electricity cost us $1 million in 12 months. We’ve been really battling not to put our prices up.”

Read the whole article: it’s a good round-up of the factors that make eating out – whether in pubs or fine diners – so expensive in this country.

I do wonder if the good restaurateurs of Sussex Street have been passing on the increased costs upon the barbarians that inflicted this pointless tax.

Token

7 Feb 13 at 9:10 pm
Thats lovely James K.

Pedro, welcome to the inance club – do you not subscribe to the Bishop pf Rome Pedro?
Shane on you.
I presume James means the Pope when he says the Bishop of Rome?
Not that I would know ezpecting not much more than to add my living atoms to a layer of bedrock one day.

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 9:10 pm
Thanks for the spell, Gab. Much better thanks.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 9:12 pm
There was a time when I used to enjoy reading this guy’s work popularising science. Pity he let his need to have his faith validated overwhelm facts:

No sign of that exchange now on Dr Karl’s Twitter site. No correction. No apology for attacking me, misleading Craig Emerson, misinforming his readers. No sign that a fundamental misapprehension – believing in 0.3 degrees of warming in 16 years rather than just 0.05 – has changed his opinion on global warming, as it should.

…Dr Karl, let me repeat, presents science on the ABC – and BBC, too. His employers pay him to spread this misconception?

It seems the need to be loved by the luvvies seduces and destroys even the best.

[H/t Bolta]

Token

7 Feb 13 at 9:16 pm
Jump “how about the benefits of islam?”
Cheeky. Well there could anti mosquito hijabs? They could be ueful somewhere tropical if light weight enough. Some reallly lovely architecture aqnd some great food etc. There is distinctly anti alcohol culture – dont know how I would go with that quite, they like group meetings (no internet tends to do that) etc
They are quire flexible having to bemd low early in life to pray, they dont retire their elders soon enough, they dont socially mix with the femalke sex early and often enough, the bread is much healthier than ours?

Time for Nigella and to ezit.
Goodnight Jump!!

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 9:17 pm
uncontested fact: that Christianity in Europe …was spread by the sword

Except that in Roman lands, or Ireland and England, and elsewhere, this was not the case. Three things spread Christianity in Europe and elsewhere: monasteries, bishops, and the conversion of the local ruler. The sword was, on the whole, the exception.

But I wouldn’t talk it up too much or forget that I don’t know the counterfactuals. The seed of the church fell on fertile ground in the greek and roman world and adapted to that environment as well as changing it.

Not so much “talk it up too much” as simply fully appreciate its achievement. BTW, the ground was quite run down by the first and second century AD; thankfully some Christians were good at cultivating these run-down fields. I thank them.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 9:19 pm
Don’t go yet Aliice, Gillard is selling up in Canberra, any idea why?

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/pm-gillard-sells-canberra-unit/story-e6frfku9-1226572943289

jumpnmcar

7 Feb 13 at 9:20 pm
Thank GOD civilization has moderated the rage of some Christians

You talk such rampant bigoted evil shite Abu.

Earlier you morally equated the peerless evil of Mao and Stalin with pre 20th century Christian leaders.

Apparently population and technology are the only difference in your tired worldly-wise understanding.

And you have now repeated that ignorance twice.

Apparently to you it’s self-evidently true and a perfectly reasonable observation to make.

But I repeat, in reality and with no more than a moment of disciplined reflection it’s evidently pure ignorant dumbfuckery on your part.

No one including CL is saying that even the political leaders of the Church itself were pure or hadn’t made mistakes.

No one is claiming that national political leaders claiming the Faith have disgraced the Faith they purported to champion.

But all of that is actually not the point of your arrogant condescending woeful ignorance which is frankly offensive; and not least to truth.

You’ve bought in – hook, line and sinker – to the classical leftist ploy of moral equivalence.

If you were a man worthy of the name, you’d retract.

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 9:24 pm
“how about the benefits of islam?”

It was heartbreaking to learn of the abominations visited upon the Muslims in Mali by other Muslims. The details are horrific and are surfacing now after the French drove the islamists out. “This is not what Islam is supposed to be” came the bewildered wail from those poor wretched people in Mali who managed to survive a version of their Religion of Peace.

God bless them.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 9:25 pm
It’s the Sunnis Gab with their ” Get a bit more Mohammed inta ya, and Allah the fuck up “

jumpnmcar

7 Feb 13 at 9:31 pm
I presume James means the Pope when he says the Bishop of Rome?

Well presumed Aliice!

JamesK

7 Feb 13 at 9:31 pm
Jump

So it wasnt included on her pecuniary interest register …wait for it..after it sold but before it settled? She could make time the settlement any way she liked. I didnt know this loophole.

Its a boring looking unit for 530K and sold for well not much more given 5 years had passed. Doesnt look like she got Con the Greek to do it up or anything to make some decent money – my bet is this was an off the plan purchase by the look of it. She could be simply boring enough to sell it because its depreciation had kicked down?

She doesnt need it now but owned it before she became pm? I doubt she has ever lived in that thing much but maybe she thought she might need it in case Rudd came back?

Nah – nothing much to this one Jump unless you have something more interesting? If she hasnt been living in it – she doesnt need to sell it before she loses at the next election’

But hang on – she could be the next lazy ALP bastard to want to retire young and collect the gold pass and doesnt want the hassle of the unit?

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 9:32 pm
Thanks, Jump. I always get them all mixed up anyways so I got lazy and stuck to Muslim.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 9:33 pm
“how about the benefits of islam?”

Well they produce some quality comedians: Comical Ali, Sheik Hilali, Keyser Trad etc

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 9:34 pm
Token I feel the same way about Dr Karl.

To mangle the phrase : never research your heroes.

Turns out a lot of people on the luvvie purse bandwagon really are the most terrible shits.

I guess few honest people make it in showbiz.

brc

7 Feb 13 at 9:35 pm
James

Take you pills. Im too tired to argue and you need sedating.

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 9:36 pm
Gillard is selling up in Canberra, any idea why?
Maybe she needs funds to afford a really good lawyer?

Cold-Hands

7 Feb 13 at 9:37 pm
Atheists turn to God when confronted with severe stress or at the end, it’s only natural, it’s innate.

candy

7 Feb 13 at 9:37 pm
I retract comment to James at 9.36.
James was insulting Abu not Aliice and well you all know the excuse..Im as blind as bat.

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 9:39 pm
This site needs three permanent open threads:
1) abortion arguments
2) religious arguments
3) WW2 arguments

brc

7 Feb 13 at 9:40 pm
it’s innate.

Either that or it’s bullshit.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 9:40 pm
Another Labor rat jumping ship:

PM Gillard sells Canberra unit.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 9:41 pm
Candy

Im not so sure that all atheists turn to God in the end but what is does happen is long standing lapsed catholics turning to god in the end (deathbed catholics) and I know that happens.

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 9:41 pm
Still debating religion? I think this open forum page is done for!

Andrew

7 Feb 13 at 9:43 pm
PRIME Minister Julia Gillard has sold her Canberra apartment for $615,000.

The sale was declared this week in an update to the prime minister’s parliamentary pecuniary interest register.

The Lying Slapper is bailing out of Zombie Parrotville like a sinking boy on the burning plank. Wasn’t she the one excoriating her underlings this week for not having faith in her fabulous leadership?

Great get, Jump. All aboard the karma bus.

Tom

7 Feb 13 at 9:43 pm
You’ve been a nurse in serious settings, Alice, you might be aware of how people from any religious persuasion call on God whey they’re in need?

candy

7 Feb 13 at 9:43 pm
Can we have a new Open Forum – preferably one where proponents of the atheist belief system are banned?

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 9:45 pm
Candy

I cannot deny that which you say in all honesty because I have witnessed this on many occasions when I nursed (re people calling on God in serious situations). It happens when people are very ill or who have relatives or loved ones or children who are very ill and is not uncommon at all. It makes you wonder what you would really do in the same circumstances etc I agree.
Life is a powerful incentive isnt it?

Aliice

7 Feb 13 at 9:48 pm
Can we have a new Open Forum – preferably one where proponents of the atheist belief system are banned?

Why stop there? You could also have us burnt at the stake. Been done before. For hundreds of years in fact.

jupes

7 Feb 13 at 9:48 pm
This site needs three permanent open threads:
1) abortion arguments
2) religious arguments
3) WW2 arguments

Don’t forget a thread specifically dedicated to Keelhaul and fractional reserve banking.

Fisky

7 Feb 13 at 9:48 pm
LOL.

I heard about this breaking ‘scandal’ on the radio.

Chrissie Swan Admits To Smoking While Pregnant.

Chrissie Swan emotionally confesses to smoking while pregnant

After being photographed smoking a cigarette while pregnant with her third child, Australian TV personality Chrissie Swan emotionally confessed she has “struggled terribly with totally giving up cigarettes since I found out I was pregnant” during a segment on her Melbourne radio show Chrissie and Jane this morning…

Swan’s confession comes just days after paparazzi photographed the pregnant star “having a sneaky cigarette.” Begging they “not write the story” of her secret shame “because I know how bad it looks,” Swan decided to come clean. “It is bad. And I also told them it was a deeply shameful secret no one knows…not my mum, not my best friend, not my partner.”

She should have had a late term abortion and every luvvie from Tony Jones to Julia Gillard would have praised her ‘bravery’.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 9:50 pm
Why stop there? You could also have us burnt at the stake. Been done before. For hundreds of years in fact.

But not these days, jupes, not for quite some time. But hey, if you want you could always be stoned to death in the time-honored islam tradition. Or a beheading perhaps.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 9:52 pm
Atheists turn to God when confronted with severe stress or at the end, it’s only natural, it’s innate. The nutshell is that while atheists consciously do not embrace god there are unconscious processes at play.

Very interesting study on that Candy …

Death Anxiety Increases Atheists’ Unconscious Belief in God

Study co-author Associate Professor Jamin Halberstadt says these results fit with the theory that fear of death prompts people to defend their own worldview, regardless of whether it is a religious or non-religious one.

John H.

7 Feb 13 at 9:52 pm
LOL.

I heard about this breaking ‘scandal’ on the radio.

Chrissie Swan Admits To Smoking While Pregnant.

You sure the story wasn’t about Wayne Swan? We all know the old bitch has to be smoking something to be so stupid!

Andrew

7 Feb 13 at 9:53 pm
And an open thread for the craven, complicit media to be put in the stocks and have soft, squishy, rotten vegetables pelted at them … then Monty Python’s architect sketch with John Cleese and the revolving blades might presage the next phase.

blogstrop

7 Feb 13 at 9:58 pm
You could also have us burnt at the stake.

Diddums.

Hardly anyone in history was burned for being an atheist.

I can’t think of one single example, in fact.

On the other hand, atheist icons like Hitler, Stalin and the Spanish communists burned, raped, shot, hanged and tortured tens of millions of Christians.

———————-

Seriously, though – it was an enjoyable and engaging Open Forum until the atheist Taliban showed up.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 10:00 pm
Don’t forget the Romans. They tortured and murdered Christians too.

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 10:03 pm
I’ve opened up a new open forum.

Sinclair Davidson

7 Feb 13 at 10:03 pm
LOL. I heard about this breaking ‘scandal’ on the radio.

I caught that yesterday old son and concluded more or less as you did.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 10:07 pm
Just watched that Nigella person for the first time.
Hahaha, 1 recipe and 30 sexual connotations, it’s like granddad porn.
And if those soft, wrinkle free hands have worked over a hot stove for 30 years then I’m the next PM.

jumpnmcar

7 Feb 13 at 10:08 pm
Don’t you just hate it when that happens.

dover_beach

7 Feb 13 at 10:09 pm
Sorry, Dover. These mega-threads become unreadable. I missed your comment.

C.L.

7 Feb 13 at 10:14 pm
CL
They were Pakistani and Bangladeshi.
THey were mean girls. They sounded like spiteful sixteen year olds.

kae

7 Feb 13 at 10:45 pm
The mean girls were quite shocked that the microphones picked up everything they said, and when they talked in a LOTE the conversation was translated and put up on the screen in text.

kae

7 Feb 13 at 10:47 pm
~ test

Gab

7 Feb 13 at 11:15 pm
Huck 5:28 pm

mOnster made a drive by?

I wondered where those skiddies had come from.

kae

7 Feb 13 at 11:24 pm

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