From a previous post, there seems to be confusion about how to address The Right Honourable, Christopher Walter Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley. He is an hereditary peer and entitled to be called “Lord Monckton”.
As a Viscount, he ranks above all life peers (who are always appointed as Barons). The run from top to bottom of the peerage is Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, Baron.
Since the enactment of the House of Lords Act 1999, the British Upper House comprises principally life peers and the Lords Spiritual (26 of them) and 88 elected hereditary peers. As at 1 February 2013, there were 760 members of the House of Lords: 647 Life Peers, 25 Lords Spiritual and 88 hereditary peers. There are more than 700 hereditary peers, so only a small proportion now sit in the House of Lords.
Life peers can be created without much thought (there was a modicum of constraint about creating new hereditary peers because it would be resisted by existing peers as diluting their influence and status as members of the nobility).
In the past, public servants (such as Sir Humphrey) could aspire to awards and knighthoods ranging from CMG (Call me God) to KCMG (Kindly Call Me God) to GCMG (God Calls Me God).
But now Prime Ministers can shower awards – since the Life Peerages Act 1958 was enacted, there have been 1232 Life Peers created. Tony Blair created 357 of those; David Cameron 122.
Nicholas Stern became Lord Stern, Baron Stern of Brentford, in 2007, for his fictional report modestly titled The Stern Review. And how does this man revel in his titles (including Professor at LSE)! He insists on being called “Your Lordship” in private, as I discovered in 2008.
The left always have a love of grandiose titles and awards (such as claiming a Nobel Prize for working at the IPCC). So I find it amusing that Monckton is getting a slam for using his title – has anyone criticised Stern and the others?
Anyhow, the present situation in the House of Lords is most unsatisfactory. The Queen (on the advice of the Prime Minister) can appoint life peers who then sit in the House of Lords. It is even worse than appointing Senators for a fixed term – these people live off the public teat (sitting fees etc) for the rest of their lives.
Fortunately the Cameron government is moving to further reform the House of Lords, with up to 80 per cent being elected (ideally the chamber should be 100 per cent elected).
As for peerages, it seems to me two sensible options for the 21st century:
- declare that peerages will die with the current holder, including hereditary peerages, with no new appointees; or
- ennoble every holder of a British passport as an hereditary Duke. In a splendid ceremony, the Queen announces that all of her people are noble and wonderful. The UK would be a nation of Lords. Lord Monckton would be promoted to Duke, as would everyone else.
Well when I first met Moncko in company with Jo Nova in Perth a couple of years ago he said to call him Christopher.
Poor Old Rafe
12 Feb 13 at 7:13 pm
So herein after he shall be referred to as Lord Monckton For He Is A Lord.
Pickles
12 Feb 13 at 7:13 pm
The only people who really quibble about Monckton being a Lord are those with no functioning idea about the peerage.
Life peers, on the other hand, are a mickey-mouse imitation and shouldn’t be referred to Lords by anyone. (they’re about as “noble” as all those Baronets James I created in the 17th century when he needed quick cash).
Quentin George
12 Feb 13 at 7:17 pm
house of lords reforms stalled after a Tory backbench revolt.
they liked the diversity of the Lords and they feared for the power of the commmons if the Lords used their popualr mandate to reject to many more bills.
Jim Rose
12 Feb 13 at 7:19 pm
When Steve Kates and I met Monckton in Prague recently he said “hullo my name is Christopher”. Similarly when I met Lord Lawson he said “my name is Nigel”
Sinclair Davidson
12 Feb 13 at 7:22 pm
Yeah but have you met Nigella, Sinclair?
Gab
12 Feb 13 at 7:24 pm
Indeed,yet when I met Stern in 2008, his secretary told me (before the meeting) that he liked to be called “Your Lordship” – I hadn’t even asked.
Samuel J
12 Feb 13 at 7:24 pm
Bit of name dropping hmmm boys
Tal
12 Feb 13 at 7:26 pm
Well written
Thank you
That is all !
Craig Havenaar
12 Feb 13 at 7:27 pm
Jupes was right on the other thread, he does it to explode lefty heads. CAGW people are ‘way the worst. I can say on some blog ‘he’s a lord you know’ and its like pressing the proverbial big red button.
He always includes the insignia of the House of Lords on all his slides to explode their heads too. Works like a charm.
Bruce
12 Feb 13 at 7:32 pm
OH god – if only you really knew what the real peers do?
This is what they do…they come home pissed at 4pm in the afternoon from an “at home” or “luncheon”.
Then thet read Debretts Peerage for an hour to make sure that the person they spoke to over luch is a “real peer” and not a descendant of a family who (shock horror bought or purchased their “peerage” in the last 100 to 150 years)
One has “to be so careful whom one talks to doesnt one?” I mean a “purchased peerage is a bit declasse n’ext ce pas?
After that you tell funny stories about Princess Margaret who so loved to surround herself with gay boys didnt she? Even married one (lord Snowdon) not that most ordinary mortals \are aware of this of course etc etc but …well…thats the way things are?
Goodness me a title will take you anywhere in England as long as its real and you can meet the most nutty people too.
Aliice
12 Feb 13 at 7:45 pm
Nigella isnt a peer Gab, never was. Wealthy Russian Jewish family.
Never peers.
Aliice
12 Feb 13 at 7:47 pm
This is what else peers do.
They can be superb cooks but they never rinse a spoon or a pot and or put their hands in Madges dishwashing liquid. Instead they have thirty pots and 60 plates and bowls etc so they never have to rinse one. If a pot gets dirty when they are cokking it is simply dumped in the bin and maid will fish it out and clean it the next day.
If your maid or manservant leaves for any length of time you get up in the morning, cook your own steamed kippers, serve yourself and move each day to the next place at the 16 seater dining table and leave the old plates there till they get back. You do not wash or rinse or carry anything back from the table. There will eventually be someone to pick up after you sooner or later.
Simple.
Aliice
12 Feb 13 at 7:57 pm
“Drunk as a lord, sober as a judge”. Or was it the other way around?
Poor Old Rafe
12 Feb 13 at 7:59 pm
No its the right way round Rafe.
Aliice
12 Feb 13 at 8:01 pm
“ennoble every holder of a British passport as an hereditary Duke. In a splendid ceremony, the Queen announces that all of her people are noble and wonderful. The UK would be a nation of Lords. Lord Monckton would be promoted to Duke, as would everyone else.”
Old idea.
2dogs
12 Feb 13 at 8:07 pm
\
I gather that Nigel is used to people talking about his daughter because he got that long suffering look on his face when we did.
I’d be hanging a lot of shit on young CL if I had.
Sinclair Davidson
12 Feb 13 at 8:10 pm
Nigel must be a bit peeved. After all he was the Chancellor of the Excheqor…but Nigella is prettier and can cook. An irresistable combination.
Aliice
12 Feb 13 at 8:14 pm
On lords and royals for that matter, WTF, unearned distinctions are of no interest to me. Nigel Lawson did earn some distinction though, I expect at least some life peers are worthy of respect.
On Nigella, I don’t get it. she’s not hot, sorry.
Pedro
12 Feb 13 at 8:22 pm
Electing people to the House of Lords, achieves very little and may well make things worse unless the electors are limited to those not on the public teat.
Otherwise you just have an alternate house of commons. It’s a bit daft.
No, the vote must be limited to those whose pockets are raided to fund the joint. Then you start to get some real restraint on the handout class.
Driftforge
12 Feb 13 at 8:28 pm
Lord Stern has been on the wrong side of history even since he reviewed P.T. Bauer’s book in 1974.
His lordship wrote that
after the death of Lord Bauer, the Lord Desai wrote that Bauer’s views had won the respect of time-but not at DfID:
Jim Rose
12 Feb 13 at 8:40 pm
But the point is that this sort of silly behaviour just looks embarrassing no matter what side of the political spectrum the subject is on.
Love his CV:
To think my relative recently had a total thyroidectomy when the cure was discovered five years ago.
dan
12 Feb 13 at 8:42 pm
Peter Bauer was the brilliant and unpretentious son of a Hungarian bookie who went to Britain as a refugee. We were wondering how to entertain a high flying intellectual and Lord of the realm when he arrived in Sydney on Melbourne Cup day, and we were delighted to find that he loved the turf and was completely in his element joining in our Cup Day festivities.
Poor Old Rafe
12 Feb 13 at 8:56 pm
Dave Allen got it right:
Deadman
12 Feb 13 at 9:05 pm
I wish we never got rid of knighthoods, especially as we had (for a while) our own AK and AD.
A cheap way of promoting benevolence. I’d have no problem saying to any wealthy person, “donate millions to a charity unconnected to your own self-serving foundation, and you get a gong and a title.”
Deadman
12 Feb 13 at 9:08 pm
Where’s Lord mUttley of Ausboneville to regale us with his tuppence worth on this important topic?
Rabz
12 Feb 13 at 9:11 pm
Probably easier to just name the building or charity after the donor rather than all this peerage bull***t.
dan
12 Feb 13 at 9:13 pm
Funny how the ABC and lefties generally have no problem with the self promoting “Lord” Stern, author of economic fantasies that even out perform the high frying Garnaut Groanicles, but want to cast crap at Monckton at every opportunity.
Blogstrop
12 Feb 13 at 9:25 pm
Titles have always been handed out to reward supporters, but sparingly, to support their market value. Ironically, the lavishing of titles on all and sundry – the equivalent of union hacks getting safe seats – has totally debased the currency.
Some of the awards are verging on parody – like the 27 year old comely activist who wrote the ruinous Climate Change Bill was made Baroness something-or-other.
Baron Steptoe, of 5 Railway Cuttings, Dagenham?
Good job in destroying the public profile of the aristocracy, but of course they just put their pals in with lavish priviliges paid for by the British public.
johanna
12 Feb 13 at 9:31 pm
“When everyone is somebody, then no one’s anybody.”
Cold-Hands
12 Feb 13 at 9:42 pm
I really bear no ill-will toward the UK for their titles and carry-on. It does no real harm if you ask me, but makes them feel quintessentially British, and the Lords and Ladies so-addressed usually try and comport themselves with good grace and manners.
We could use a few role-models in Australian society. It’s not like our politicians or sports stars are people to look up to an emulate.
brc
12 Feb 13 at 10:06 pm
I maintain this rot all started with Cromwell…Oliver, of course.
Anthony
12 Feb 13 at 10:12 pm
I am sure I heard there was a law, or some weird legal requirement, requiring them to use their title, especially for anything as part of being in the house of Lords.
As for Stern… well what a wanker.
mundi
12 Feb 13 at 10:18 pm
rafe, I dug out a number of journal articles of bauer from the 1950s and 1960s last year.
The reviewers of his books did not like him; nit-picked where ever possible.
Jim Rose
12 Feb 13 at 10:19 pm
Well take a look at a Monckton Powerpoint presentation; he has little shining crowns and pseudo-House-of-Lords insignia all over the place. He has temperature charts with a little crown right in the middle of the data! So if he is required to tell everyone he is something to do with the House of Lords (but not with the right to sit in the House of Lords, I guess he is doing a good job of it.
I’m sorry but you have to call a spade a spade.
dan
12 Feb 13 at 10:28 pm
I sat next to a Lord at a formal dinner once with HIA. This Lord was quite famous and I thought he would be tedious. In the event, he was not at all boring so it was a better night than I had anticipated. Nor sure what sort of a Lord he was, but I made note to self not to exclaim my favourite ‘Good Lord!’ when I was surprised about something. Have to take verbal care. Like when I found myself sitting nearby to Cardinal Pell (a spiritual Lord if in Britain) in the First Class Lounge waiting for a plane. It won’t crash, Lizzie, whispered HIA, because da Good Lord will be watching over us on dis one. Just don’t paw me too much making da audible suggestions that might offend da good man and his God.
I missed my chance to be Lady Lizzie at long time ago, but that is another story.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
12 Feb 13 at 10:41 pm
You lot are a disgrace, fawning and primping before a titled buffoon.
I fully appreciate your commitment to free markets but supporting idiots like Monckton and Jones will only lead to grief.
Christ almighty be devoted but don’t slobber over the footprints of these false idols.
As for this garbage about the nobility – just fuck off! Are you in any sense sentient Australians?
You have lost all credibility as libertarians- just pathetic….
John Cowperthwaite
12 Feb 13 at 10:43 pm
88 hereditary peers?
The House of Lords Act 1999 excluded all hereditary peerage except for two royal office holders and 90 peers to be chosen as provided by the House of Lords.
the royal office holders are Earl Marshal and the Lord Great Chamberlain ex-offico
Jim Rose
12 Feb 13 at 10:44 pm
Not too OT I hope, but I couldn’t believe how quickly Lady Grantham forgave Lord Grantham for losing here fortune.
In her shoes I would have been seriously pissed off.
But she seemed to melt when he went teary.
What’s going on?
Lazlo
12 Feb 13 at 10:54 pm
Who dragged him in from the cesspits of Carlton/Balmain?
Lazlo
12 Feb 13 at 10:56 pm
Cowpie, if you don’t like the company here, go some place else!
We admire Moncko’s achievements and tolerate his eccentricities.
Poor Old Rafe
12 Feb 13 at 11:12 pm
We do try hard and work at it. Nice of you to notice. Now frottage off.
Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
12 Feb 13 at 11:28 pm
I’ve always understood you should meet a person before you judge them. From the stories above it is clear that good breeding is due to good parenting, not bloodlines.
Those can not do so are unfortunately hanging out their psychological insecurities.
Token
12 Feb 13 at 11:53 pm
What a marvelous surname you have. Is it made up?
Abu Chowdah
13 Feb 13 at 12:02 am
I actually think that the House of Lords as a last resort on judgements of law, etc., was a good idea, depending on its powers.
It means there’s a level of review by people who don’t need the next election, the next soundbite, or the next dollar.
While it’s not an institution I’d impose on a new democracy, it worked well enough in the British system, and let’s face it, the government there has gotten rapidly less liberal and rights-based-libertarian since the House of Lords was diluted. If I’m wrong on these points then abolish the thing.
So personally I don’t care for the idea of a nobility, but I think politically they can be useful and that the HoL was an effective and working institution that has been turned into a total joke and needs to be reverted or put down.
wreckage
13 Feb 13 at 12:08 am
Cowperthwaite did marvellous work with the Orientals in Honkers.
Infidel Tiger
13 Feb 13 at 12:08 am
Pffffffffha ha ha ha! Australia the Monarchy you mean, idiot?
Honestly. Be against nobility if you like, you have my in-principle agreement. But citing folk patriotism to support that, in a nation that loves the Royals and has so far only ever voted to retain the Monarchy, is just absurd.
wreckage
13 Feb 13 at 12:11 am
IT was that Cowperthwaite Major or his younger brother Cowperthwaite Minor?
One of their uncles was mentioned in dispatches during the Indian Mutiny as well. Or was it the retreat from Kabul…
Poor Old Rafe
13 Feb 13 at 8:29 am
While I agree with your post above otherwise, I think that not imposing this style of institution on a new democracy leaves them exceedingly subject to welfare capture over time.
There are two principles at work that need to be captured in the parliamentary structure. The first is the ‘one man, one vote’ consideration; everyone needs to be represented and should have the opportunity to meet with an MP, preferably one they have some level of agreement with. The second is ‘he who pays the piper calls the tune’. Those who are paying for the working of government need to have a separate, overriding capacity to deny or at least limit the extraction of their wealth for the ‘common good’. Otherwise you end up with unlimited growth of the mendicant class, and an aggrieved group of people who pay but have no say because they end up outnumbered.
Driftforge
13 Feb 13 at 9:17 am
I like the eccentricities of the Peerage system.
So there…
Winston SMITH
13 Feb 13 at 9:41 am
“declare that peerages will die with the current holder, including hereditary peerages, with no new appointees”
Sounds good to me.
“Ironically, the lavishing of titles on all and sundry – the equivalent of union hacks getting safe seats – has totally debased the currency.”
Exactly. It seems part of a wider trend of credential inflation. More trophies and ribbons at primary school track and field days, grade inflation at uni, needing degrees to get jobs that don’t need them and so on up the degree hierarchy. Now it’s Imperial titles and Australian honours.
“in a nation that loves the Royals and has so far only ever voted to retain the Monarchy”
That’s because we bear almost none of the costs and get plenty of entertainment.
Jarrah
13 Feb 13 at 9:42 am
I like Star Trek but don’t want the characters to rule the country no matter how nice the costumes are.
Rob
13 Feb 13 at 9:44 am
Wasn’t there a Copperthwaite who was beaten to death at Eton for being middle class?
Rococo Liberal
13 Feb 13 at 9:46 am
As a Tory romantic, I quite like the HoL, as it was before the useless reforms.
There was a lot to be said for a House that had a lot of talent and which was not beholden to any pressure group and needed not to face election.
I think it was Polybius who said that the best Constitution is a blend Monarchical, Aristocratic and popular elements.
Rococo Liberal
13 Feb 13 at 9:51 am
Interestingly, without the formal system, we generate ‘peerages’ of our own, with dynasty’s developing in our parliamentary systems.
There is a skill to representation, and an inherent advantage to those who grow up seeing their parents deal with the issues involved.
The beauty of it being informal though is that it comes to a natural end if the apple falls too far from the tree.
Maybe introduce a confirmation system to peerages, that when a hereditary peer reaches 40 or so that their peerage must be confirmed by the community they are peer of.
Driftforge
13 Feb 13 at 9:53 am
Sounds good to me
wreckage
13 Feb 13 at 10:00 am
Labor has a peerage system. They are just called Board,Commission, Director General appointments, and Union preferenced preselections.
Splatacrobat
13 Feb 13 at 10:05 am
Ever since Bob Hawke came to power Australia has its own peerage . That is :- Everyone is an honorary ‘Mate’ and is the peer of everyone else.
Just arks them.
john malpas
13 Feb 13 at 11:34 am
Copperthwaite is obviously phonetic pronounciation, so the question is, doth he have a lipth or not since the Tories were lampooned in pamplets and plays by having this affliction.
Louis Hissink
13 Feb 13 at 11:39 am
I’d prefer Spock to Gillard.
Yobbo
13 Feb 13 at 11:46 am
It might be all right being a Duke but what if you’re already a queen?
Lew
13 Feb 13 at 11:48 am
Seriously, I can’t believe rational people are trying to defend a situation where some toady 600 years ago was basically given a bunch of human beings and their labour on the land or in the army as a gift by a warlord. And 600 years later their (alleged) descendants retain the vestige of those privileges.
What I am finding most abhorrent are the comments implying that these “noble” people are genuinely more elevated and capable of good judgement than anyone else.
Rob
13 Feb 13 at 12:08 pm
Oh yeah…would love to see the evidence of this theory of natural selection…then again I suppose there are some examples of what you get with modern dynasties and perhaps kids do learn from their families:
Ted Kennedy
The Kims of NK
All the godawful Labor MPs in the UK moving into their fathers’ seats, sometimes at less than 25 years old
Mme Le Pen
Rulers of Syria and much of the Arab world
Rob
13 Feb 13 at 12:15 pm
Rob, your point is a fair one, but OTOH there is nothing unusual or sinister about children following the family trade. There are plenty of military families, and those of cops, farmers, doctors etc.
Being a politician at a senior level is a highly skilled job, like it or not. That is why blow-ins from populist backgrounds like Pauline Hanson crash and burn.
You may not like it, but the fact that if a child from a political family goes into politics it is neither sinister, or necessarily bad.
Getting the wheels greased by nepotism is another thing. But, then again, do the children of soldiers, or cops, or doctors, get no help from their parents?
I don’t think it’s as black-and-white as you might think at the first pass.
johanna
13 Feb 13 at 12:32 pm
There is something sinister about the ALP family connections in politics but I suppose that is just the tribal way that the left and the trade unions operate.
“Wasn’t there a Copperthwaite who was beaten to death at Eton for being middle class?”
No but he was not allowed to have a fag when he became a Senior.
Poor Old Rafe
13 Feb 13 at 12:46 pm
What turned up from a google of Eton+fags.
Poor Old Rafe
13 Feb 13 at 12:50 pm
Sweden has been doing something like that for yonks. In a family with a hereditary title, all the male heirs can use the title while the women can until they change their name by marriage. It’s not just first born males, etc.
As a result there are heaps and heaps of titled people with titles like arseholes – everyone’s got one.
I know this because in Sweden I am a Baron (as are all males with my surname). With no castle or slaves to go with it though, it impresses no-one.
DavidLeyonhjelm
13 Feb 13 at 1:07 pm
Rafe, there is no shortage of family dynasties on the conservative side – eg the Anthonys in northern NSW (3 generations), the Courts in WA and innumerable families in the UK, including Winnie Churchill.
Lyndon Johnson was the son of a State politician, but the Bush family has form as well, and not just at one level of politics at the same time.
I don’t see why it matters. Every pollie should be judged on their own merits, however obtained.
johanna
13 Feb 13 at 1:14 pm
Different situation in my view…one the one hand, machine politics where someone’s child is pushed to the top of a Senate ticket or preselected regardless of skill…on the other careers where, while you might be helped into medical school or basic training, you would think or hope that the cack-handed surgeon or cowardly infantryman is unlikely to rise to the top.
I understand what you mean but
Gillard
Swan
Emerson
Rudd
Evans
Plibersek
Roxon
And these guys are the top of the top at the moment
dan
13 Feb 13 at 4:29 pm
I suggest an Austalian soshalist “honors” system given by the alp guvnor each Peoples Holiday(Christmas)the following are worthy of note.
1.baronperson JoolIAR of the slush fundsI did nothin wrong ,
2.baron Swannie of the surplus.
3.baron Emmo of the contacts,
4 baron garro of the pink batts,
5 .baronpersonRoxon vof the secret files.
6.baronperson Wong of the fatherhood factor.
7.baron Ludwig of the important connections.
8.baron Shortass of the union obfuscation,
9.baron Carr of the overseas foolishness.
10.baron Rudd of the look at me Kochie
11.baronperson Kirner of the financial management .
12.baron Mcternan of the Disinfomation
13.baronperson Burke of the Impartiality.
14.baron Gibbons of the mentally Deficient.
15.baron Obeid of the pure coincidence.
Cmon people there Must be more?
Borisgodunov
13 Feb 13 at 4:30 pm
Yeah the silent but deadly responsible for immigration
dan
13 Feb 13 at 4:50 pm
dan, you are missing the point.
Being a successful senior politician is a skilled job. You may think that a lot of senior politicians are bad at governing, but they are no slouches at being politicians. It’s a different thing.
johanna
13 Feb 13 at 5:03 pm
the 1958 allows life peers to be a baron and no higher.
maybe five hereditary peers have been created since 1958.
Jim Rose
13 Feb 13 at 6:41 pm
he is an eccentric.
see http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/01/eccentricity-einstein-prince-society which reports that eccentrics tend to be optimistic with a highly developed, mischievous sense of humour, childlike curiosity and a drive to make the world a better place. They are also highly creative. they also are less prone to depression and illness.
Jim Rose
13 Feb 13 at 8:41 pm
Eccentrics have always been the engine-room of English civilisation.
wreckage
13 Feb 13 at 8:58 pm
is hard to find creative people who are not a bit odd.
Oscar Wilde used to take a lobster on a lead for walks. Einstein always filled his pipe with tobacco from cigarette butts he found in the street.
18 characteristics differentiate a healthy eccentric from a regular person or someone who is mentally ill.
Nonconforming attitude
Idealistic
Intense curiosity
Happy obsession with a hobby or hobbies
Knew very early in his or her childhood they were different from others
Highly intelligent
Opinionated and outspoken
Unusual living or eating habits
Not interested in the opinions or company of others
Strong moral obligations (against infidelity, strong family values, overly-religious)
Mischievous sense of humor
Jim Rose
13 Feb 13 at 10:12 pm
Sydney’s Daily Telegraph today wrongly and rudely refers to Catherine, HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn and Baroness Carrickfergus, as Kate Middleton. Has the newspaper no fact-checkers?
Deadman
15 Feb 13 at 4:06 am
deadman, The Scottish titles apply only when in Scotland. The prince Charles and the duchess of rothesay is an example.
Many get the name of the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled wrong too.
Jim Rose
15 Feb 13 at 8:27 pm