At the very instant of the publication of this blog, Benedict XVI, Pontifex Maximus, is no more. Right now, his ring is being broken with a silver hammer by the Camerlengo, Cardinal Bertone, as is Benedict’s seal of office. The Vatican is now sede vacante pending the election of the new Pope by the College of Cardinals. In the interim the Camerlengo acts as de facto manager under the orders of the College, with the coat of arms below.
I quite liked Benedict and wish him well in retirement. He has extensive writings, has been a true scholar and probably deserving of the ultimate accolade of the Catholic Church after he dies: Doctor of the Church. He has had a very difficult eight years in the Petrine ministry, but has had difficulty in confronting some of the embedded problems of the Church. In 2005 I found myself attending his first Mass as Bishop of Rome at the Papal Archbasilica of Saint John Lateran (by accident – I was walking around Rome and saw a very long line leading into the basilica. It was a very moving service.
I don’t know the truth of the abuse charges levelled at some members of the Church, but suspect that the extent of the problems have been wildly exaggerated by enemies of the Church. In my personal experience I have never once seen any priest (or brother) act inappropriately and have found many to be wonderful Ambassadors for their religion (I went to a Catholic boys school).
The Church cannot be all things to all people. The Uniting Church has got to the point where even belief in God is optional. A church of agnostics and atheists is not a future for the Catholic Church.
Like him or not, Benedict has been a traditionalist and conservative. But that is what a Church that is 2000 years old must be. Fads come and go, but the Church must be a beacon of continuity; one doesn’t become ‘relevant’ and ‘up to date’ by compromising core principles and core beliefs.
George Cardinal Pell would be an excellent replacement. Perhaps it is time for the first Australian pope?
From Vatican Radio:
The Pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI will come to an end with the Sede Vacante (“Vacant See”) beginning at 8pm Rome time (7pm GMT). On the last full day of his pontificate, Pope Benedict will hold a special farewell meeting with members of the College of Cardinals in the Clementine Hall. At 4.55 p.m. the Pope will bid farewell to the pontifical household, and depart the Apostolic Palace by car from the San Damaso Courtyard. From there, he will be driven to the Vatican heliport, where he will be seen off by the Dean of the College of Cardinals, Cardinal Angelo Sodano. At 5.15 p.m. he will be flown to Castel Gandolfo, about 30 km from Rome. The Holy Father will then briefly greet the faithful of the Diocese of Albano from the central balcony of the Apostolic Palace. This will be the last public appearance of Pope Benedict XVI while in office. At 8 p.m, the reign of the 265th Pope, the 264th successor of St. Peter, will come to an end, having lasted 7 years, 10 months, and 9 days.
Here are Benedict’s final public words as Pope, translated by Vatican Radio:
Thank you, thank you from my heart. I am happy to be here with you, surrounded by the beauty of Creation and your friendship that does me so much good, thank you for your friendship, for caring.
You know that today is different from others… as of eight pm I will no longer be the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church. I will simply be a pilgrim who is beginning the last part of his pilgrimage on earth.
But with my heart, my love, my prayer, with all my interior strength, I will work for the common good and the good of the Church and all humanity.
And I feel greatly supported by your affection. Let us move forward together with the Lord for the good of the Church and the world.
I will now impart upon you all my Apostolic Blessing
Thank you and good night. Thank you all
A sweet, holy and intelligent man.
A giant in this modern breathtakingly superficial world of dwarves where idiocy is misrepresented as perceptive and courageous
I don’t understand all this. Why did he resign? What happened that his resignation was required? Was he just too crook to continue? Did his enemies, both inside and out of the Church bring him down?
Genuine puzzlement here from an agnostic who nevertheless recognises the powerful source for good the Roman Catholic Church was and is.
Winston, he was old and never wanted the job in the first place. He wanted to retire at 75 and spend the rest of his life writing. He had already tendered his resignation 3 times before he was elected Pope. He was knocked back each time.
“I don’t know the truth of the abuse charges levelled at some members of the Church, but suspect that the extent of the problems have been wildly exaggerated by enemies of the Church.”
The number of priestly pederasts has been consistently estimated at 6% of the priesthood for some years now, based on figures from the US, Ireland and Australia. That problem was compounded by local bishops, with the Vaticans knowledge and sometimes instruction, moving offenders around parishes and soemtimes countries without telling the faithful her were subjected to their “ministry”. This is all incontrovertible, Samuel. Of course, there are many more homosexual priests and priests who do not keep their vow of celibacy, but that is a moral problem for the church rather than a criminal issue fo rthe state to deal with. And I am not an enemy of the church, btw.
What is absolutely clear is that you have made absolutely no attempt to inform yourself of the extent of the problem, given that in a previous post you made the extraordinarily wrong statement:
and went on to list 6 examples. After I linked to a site listing 151 case of priests and brothers prosecuted (and most of them convicted and going to jail) for sexual abuse, and a further 180 odd civil cases and settlements, you still said in the thread “More Labor MPs have been thrown in jail than Catholic priests.”
It is good that you had only good experiences around clergy – as it happened, I did too in primary school and later as a teenager.
But seriously – it shows an incredible set of blinkers to make the statements you do downplaying the seriousness of the problem and the scandal it has caused within the Church internationally.
To end on a positive note: I also think Benedict was not a bad Pope. His assessment of modern issues were often in stark contrast to those shown in threads at this blog, which in their intense lack of charity on matters political, ugly comments on Islam, and blithe dismissal of serious issues such as climate change, I have every reason to suspect he would find deeply embarrassing, at least with respect to the Catholics who participate here.
Agree. Wildly exaggerated.
I attended Catholic schools for all but two years of my primary and secondary education. I was an altar boy from the age of 12 to around 17. I played cricket with clubs aligned with my local parish. I was a member of the parish youth group in my mid-teens.
In all that time, no one – not a priest or a lay person – acted inappropriately towards me at any time. Not only that, I never even heard rumours of any inappropriate or illegal behaviour. Maybe I had a sheltered life, maybe I was naive, maybe I was just lucky – but I think my experience is reasonably typical of young Catholic children in the 70s and 80s.
I am no longer a Catholic – if pushed I would describe myself as “atheist” – and I have no reason to defend the Catholic church. I find it truly bizarre that my experience with the Church – a largely happy one without any abuse or “repression” – is so at odds with the stories that are constanty fed to the public by the media.
I am not saying that there has not been some horrific and evil misdeeds perpetrated by Catholic clergy and laypeople and that in some cases the response by the Church hierarchy has been shamefully inadequate. Where there is evidence of criminal actions, those people should be punished to the full extent of the law.
However, using the appalling behaviour of a tiny minority of people to claim that this behaviour is typical or even common is grossly misleading.
“his ring is being broken with a silver hammer by the Camerlengo, Cardinal Bertone, as is Benedict’s seal of office.”
Nothing like enforced scarcity to ramp up a collectibles market.
Ask De Beers.
The smart underlings will be “saving from destruction” every seal item possible….for Super fund storage.
We may be religious or not, we may agree or disagree with Pope Benedict’s views, but I believe we have to admire a decision that places the good of the Catholic Church above his personal prestige.
True though. It would be a good campaign tagline in previously anti Catholic towns in NSW like Clunes.
That’s really nice warm hearted article by Samuel J.
Perhaps sometimes it seems Cardinal Pell has defended the church at the expense of showing his sympathy to the victims of abuse, a little more humility and empathy perhaps needed as Pope, just a thought.
Anthony, You say that the number of priestly pederasts has been ESTIMATED at 6%. Later you say that this evidence is incontrovertible. You can not have it both ways mate. An estimate is not “incontrovertible” in the universe that I live in. The Roman Catholic Church is the last one standing against the tide of leftists and socialists that have basically infiltrated and destroyed other denominations such as the Anglicans and the Uniting Churches and that is why they are so hated. As all of our institutions, from the universities to the courts, have now been corrupted by socialist and leftist thought I find it hard to believe anything that comes from any study from a university or any pronouncement from any court of enquiry into the Church. I am probably not alone in my distrust of most of our social, legal, and political institutions at this point in our history. Btw I am not a Catholic nor really a practicing Christian but I do understand the enormous benefits that have accrued to our society from the Christian tradition and I am dismayed by the constant and usually successful attacks on it by the intellectual pygmies that make up our current chattering class. The fact that people can accept estimates and socialist pronouncements as evidence that is incontrovertible” is part of the problem.
Well, I know plenty of people who were molested as children in boarding school by their Catholic headmaster over a period spanning nearly 25 years. One of my best friends included. The girl in this story was my classmate in primary school. So I guess the anecdotes above are not completely representative.
True though.
No, it is not. Read this link (which I put up at the previous thread) you moron.
If you saw footage of his departure last night you would understand why he resigned. He was incredibly frail – almost struggling to stand. I noticed that his white cassock looked far too big for his bones. He has shrunk considerably.
There was a good discussion on ABC 24 (!) about Benedict last night. The ABC’s religion editor (!) said it was a great shame people didn;t fully appreciate that as an intellect he was comparable to Plato.
I saw some of it and the Pope has physically shrunk incredibly in the last few months,just wasting away.
It’s good that they’re being exposed and going to jail.
What I want to see is teachers being exposed the same way given that the rate of sexual abuse is the same as in the Catholic Church.
Right.
The abuse is exactly comparable to abuse in protestant churches (New York Times) but the difference is nobody cares when the pastor of the First Presbyterian Church of Boise, Idaho molests a child. There is also no point pursuing the matter because the First Presbyterian Church of Boise, Idaho doesn’t have any money and has long since boarded up the cinema complex where it used to hold services.
Pay no attention to Steve – a fake ‘Catholic’ who fully supports abortion.
Saw that, CL and I was shocked to see how much he has deteriorated. The burdens of office weighs heavily on his frail frame.
Only this week another story from an Anglican home about abuse. Splashed all round the media it was, made headlines news it did. /sarc
Viva il Papa!
How many “men” in power do you see simply stepping down? How many PM’s in Australia have said “yup that’s enough folks.” NONE SINCE MENZIES! How many Presidents have done this? Even the Castro’s and Chavez’s of this world hang on till their last gasp!
Benedict has more than a gasp left.
Steve from Brisbane…aren’t you meant to be at the Old Soviet Boys reunion today?
It’s a good point, Lysander.
This country is crying out for Julia Gillard to do the right thing and get out of office – where she has been a shocking, historical failure (1100 dead).
But she has no humility; no decency.
I don’t particularly care for his doctrinal position within the church on mattersmatters of faith.
However it takes a special kind of moral relativism to celebrate a man who helped block the investigation of child rapists.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection
Corrected
I don’t particularly care for his doctrinal position within the church on matters of faith – if Samuel J is happy with that good for him.
However it takes a special kind of moral relativism to celebrate a man who helped block the investigation of child rapists.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection
Perhaps, Samuel, you should read a little Church history. Take one issue – celibacy, for example. There are many others.
The Church has changed over time. That’s why it’s endured for 2000 years. The biggest threat to its continued endurance is from those who deny the reality that it is 2013 in the same way they deny and cover up clerical abuse.
Those who act appropriately against abuse (like William Morris – ex Bishop of Toowoomba Diocese) are cast aside. Pell’s behaviour around this issue was cowardly.
I fear for the future of my church.
Thanks for that link to the extremist left-wing Guardian, Michael.
Very convincing.
Not:
Wow.
An investigation with no media cameras in tow. Confidential!
What a scandal.
See also
LOL.
Celibacy is a tradition, not a core belief.
… namely?
I guess the freedom to marry explains the mad rush of men tripping over themselves to become Anglican priests.
Right?
Their seminaries are bursting at the seems. Aren’t they?
Oh yeah, that’s right – no they’re not.
The history of this is clear. Anyone who knows where this reform comes from and when it occured, understands the principal behind it.
Given that, let’s weigh issues:
Celebacy v Genital Mutilation of Infant Girls.
I know which one I believe resources to be used to stamp out. Is it a surprise the old homophobe & bigot is focused on the wrong target?
I’m deeply, deeply suspicious of “Shifty” Benedict’s resignation. “Shifty” because in every picture I’ve ever seen of the man, he has a hunted, mistrusting appearance; it’s not an open and honest face at all.
One might expect an almighty furore to erupt within the Roman Catholic church at any time, but Ratzinger will be well away in his retreat by then.
I wonder just who will step forward to accept the poisoned challis? Presumably all the cardinals know what’s afoot well before the public ever become aware. Could it be that they can find no-one to be the next Pope?
Usury.
Conservative Catholics have taken to twisting themselves backwards to come up with explanations that the Church hasn’t really changed its teaching: its all about changing definitions of usury and blah blah blah.
Their contortions are simply unconvincing. Look at this example by a priest who puts in this paragraph:
So, he’s telling us that bankers were refused absolution until the 1830′s, but argues this does not mean there has been a change in Church teaching.
The poor old devout banker who thought he was going to Hell because a priest wouldn’t give him absolution on his death bed might have a different view of the matter.
I find a certain smuttish glee in the idea that the last thing which happens to a retiring pope is that he gets his ring hammered.
Also, a married priesthood would protect the Church from scandals.
I was recently discussing just this point with the Rev. Jesse Jackson.
(Whose mistress was already knocked up when he was called to the White House to spiritually counsel brother protestant, Bill Clinton – who had not long before ordered an intern to lick his bottom in the Oval Room).
Numbers, it’s not ‘your’ Church, actually. It’s Christ’s. Which is why you don’t need to fear for its future, because Jesus Christ personally guaranteed that it had one.
But being a good practising Catholic – it being ‘your’ church and all – you’d know that already.
This idea that married priests will save the Church from scandal has always been a mystery to me, given the current divorce rate and the incidence of straying husbands out there in the real world.
I know dozens of priests – in fact, I counted them all one day and the number got to around 50 – and I realised that in all that time, I’d only had doubts about four or five of them.
I wish I could say the same for all the married men I knew!
The Catholic Church has seen over 150 seminaries open in the last 10 years. Doesn’t seem like people rushing out of the system to me!
The only people that want to get married these days are old fogey priests and gay couples; most young people I know live together and don’t want go get married HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
It’s over 50 years since I last attended a Catholic church.
However I do know that the Church’s traditions or teachings on various matters have and will change over time but the core beliefs i.e the Resurrection & Ascension, the Virgin Birth, transubstantiation etc. will not change.
And Dexter, much as I love you, perhaps you need to have a cold shower before going back to perusing your well-thumbed Dan Brown collection.
I spent over 10 years being educated at various Catholic institutions, including boarding school. A couple of years ago I attended a high school reunion, approx for matriculants of years 1970 to 1990, now mostly professionals and successful, and we discussed the matter of sexual abuse.
Nobody ever saw any suggestion of sexual abuse. Whats more we were taught a muscular Christianity, that empowered us to respect and care for ourselves and each other. We simply would not allow that sort of thing in our school, and any person – priest or brother or Pope- who even tried would have been seriously physically punished before being turned over to the school authorities.
It seems serious abuse did occur in some Catholic institutions, where the students were not as fortunate. But my schoolmates and I never saw it, and in turn I sent my sons to a Catholic school.
Catholics are not morally superior, and Popes are only fallible men. I suppose shit does happen. So we should support the victims as much as required, vigorously extirpate any perpetrators, and get on with the business of education and sport.
Oh Yeah, Vale Ben, you’ve done an alright job.
I find this thread amazing.
On the one hand, there’s the people with no religious belief who still have the courage to stand up and say, ‘Gosh, the Catholic Church, eh – really, not that bad an idea after all.’
On the other hand, there’s all the Catholics who haven’t darkened their parish church door in years, who seem to feel that a high school certificate from St Swineflu College entitles them to pontificate – no pun intended – on the Catholic Church’s rights and wrongs.
To the first group, I say a heartfelt thank you.
To the second group, I issue an equally heartfelt invitation to go to confession this Saturday, and go to Mass this Sunday. Believe me, you will feel better for it. Probably a lot less hung-up about the Catholic Church, for starters.
Local parish too trendy? Let me know – I can find you a Traditional Latin Mass if you’re really keen.
Peter Hollingworth.
Ah, yes, the science of physiognomonics to determine whether men are honest. I’ve also heard—from a noted phrenologist—that some anomalous and mysterious bumps of the former pontiff’s head might explain a lot.
Even the Pope’s vestments are lethal these days, it seems.
Only CL limply tried to respond to my above post.
Ratzinger threatened those who go to the police over child sex claims with excommunication.
Why should he be celebrated?
Link please.
The Catholic Church thrives on aggressive controversy, most Catholics appreciate this and would like to see the organisation grow a pair. They need to get actively political once more to show that they are not just a group of well kept eunuchs. They have let too many achievements and successes get ignored by the media and the PC set. At least half of what modern civilisation respects the most about itself is formed of catholic doctrine.
@Token
It’s no surprise that Token doesn’t understand the difference between “most important, consequential, or influential” and “a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption”
And I’m wondering what genital mutilation has to do with Benedict XVI.
Agreed, Simon.
The Australian hierarchy likes to be all, like, radical and stuff vis-a-vis “social justice” (stealing money from taxpayers) in the hope that this will win them plaudits and friends in the commentary class. But it isn’t brave – it’s boilerplate. Plus, the commentary class will hate them anyway. Go hard or go home.
@ Noname
Try here.
Apparently, it takes a special kind of moral relativism to condemn people on the basis of a partisan report in The Guardian which is itself predicated on suggestive smears.
Ahhhh, the Grauniad. That source of all authority on things Catholic.
Michael, READ THE ARTICLE. Cardinal Ratzinger didn’t threaten anyone with excommunication. Those who violated the confidentiality of the process would excommunicate themselves in the most extreme cases.
This is no different from a lawyer’s professional confidentiality, or when you are investigating a workplace grievance or complaint at a high level. These proceedings are always bound by confidentiality.
And as for the ten year period – did it occur to you that the evidence was to be kept secret to protect the innocent – namely the victims, and those wrongfully accused?
Or do you have to break a few eggs to make a good omelette? Is this just collateral damage that the victims will have to ‘suck up’ after their lives and careers have been ruined by false accusation?
I have a feeling no matter what is explained, nothing will stand in the way of hate and gossip and misrepresentation of the truth.
Dunno about Islam, but I thought Rabbis had to be married in order to practise, or at least it was preferred that they were. Seems common sense that spiritual leaders all need to have experienced the normality of domestic life in order to dispense good advice. Where the hell did this insistence on celibacy come from?
michaelfstanley
You came across as saying the Pope supports pa**dophiles, so it makes it difficult.
Why don’t we know tha names of all the perpetrators and victims from the ADF sex abuse scandal – probably the worst and longest-lasting in Australian history?
The answer is simple: any government official who brings forward that information will be excommunicated from their job and, possibly, their liberty.
Celibate priests have indeed experienced the normality of domestic life.
Like Christ.
Ratzinger’s and Wojtyla’s upbringing was a heckuva lot more ‘normal’ than that afforded to a generation of children raised in the era of 50% + divorce rates.
Perspective.
I was contrasting the campaign against a barbaric practice which, if stamped out, would improve the lives of children and women for generations to come, against a pointless campaign which will required as much or more energy which deliver no real benefits to anyone.
That said, we understand you have entrenched prejudices based upon the events across a 6-9 month period 30 or so years ago driving your decision making process, so I am not foolish enough to believe you will change your viewpoint.
It’s less a feeling, more a deduction, Gab.
Likewise, if a cop stuffs up procedurally, the perp walks away.
It’s not such a bad rule after all. A cop who ended up allowing a perp to walk free because they had loose lips ought to lose their job too.
Completely agree, Simon. As they teach in kendo: defence, ATTACK!
Actual LOL here. No it didn’t because the church (and Ratzinger himself) have been involved in the cover up of child rape.
If I came across accusations of the rape of children I would call the police immediately.
It took me a minute to realise the victims you speak of were falsely accused priests. The Police in most countries are perfectly well equipped to investigate these matters and can use discretion at the early stages of enquiries.
As the case of Bernard Law (under JPII and Benedict) shows being rightfully accused doesn’t hinder your career in the Catholic church, so why should false accusations hurt?
To be honest, I think Ross Douhat did a better job at defending Benedict against the claims regarding the 2001 letter.
Bob Geldof for pope! … one Rats’ singer should succeed another(Boom Boom!)
Looks like you missed Vatican 2, you lucky thing, Manalive!
Quite incredible. Hitchens publicly accuses a man of complicity in hiding terrible crimes based upon a “a tissue of misrepresentations from beginning to end”. These are the same people that get all het-up about McCarthyism, or cry at the injustice represented in the fourth act of The Crucible when John Proctor defends his name, “I will have no other”, and yet they brazenly sully a man’s name from their own lips without even engaging in the most basic research.
Not true. John Gorton resigned (albeit after a leadership spill).
From Wiki:
Lol
Hmmm, hypocrisy is not a liberating state — not for me anyhow.
That’s one thing for which I can thank my Catholic education.
Notice how nobody gave a crap when the ‘Archbishop’ of Canterbury stepped down?
Honestly, who cares?
Of course you would, Michael. But you still haven’t produced any evidence that the church – small c – and Ratzinger himself were involved in the cover-up of child rape. You’re making some pretty big calls without anything to back them up except a very dubious piece in the Grauniad.
But then again, it’s very convenient to claim that there’s no evidence precisely because it’s been ‘covered up’. I’m reminded of an interesting discussion I once had with a very evangelical Protestant, who informed me that documents proving that various aspects of the primitive Church were directly reflected in modern evangelical Christianity ‘had all been destroyed by monks’.
Yes, that’s right. Being falsely accused of paedophilia is about the most damaging thing that can happen to a Catholic priest. Mud sticks.
And child rape, for that matter. Round about now you should be asking, surely, in the interests of balance, ‘Why didn’t the victims go straight to the police?’
Ever met Bernard Law, Michael? I have. He’s suffered immensely, and he will continue to suffer until the day he dies, just like the kids he didn’t protect.
Oh manalive, you’re not a hypocrite.
You’re just too proud to admit you’ve been wrong all these years!
PS Michael – Far be it from me to come between one man and his personal conspiracy theory, so I must apologise for not picking you up earlier about this:
Go back and read what I actually wrote. ‘The victims AND those wrongfully accused.’
“I guess I just woke up one day and realized I’m 85 years old and I’m still putting on a little costume and hat and making a fool of myself in front of thousands of people. It’s time to be a grown-up, you know? Heck, I actually told people that if they really wanted something, all they had to do was clasp their hands together and ask an invisible force for it and it would deliver.
You know, kids’ stuff like that. The kind of stuff a 5-year-old would say.”
http://www.theonion.com/articles/being-pope-was-great-but-you-cant-play-makebelieve,31485/
Look, poor old Hitchens was ga-ga a lot of the time.
An intellectual coward (and mediocrity – third class honours at Oxford), even the New York Times ran a column mocking him for his loopy book about Mother Teresa.
Speaking of intellectual cowards and mediocrities, pontiff of atheism – His Holeyness Richard Dawkins – is in the news again.
Mine were better.
I can’t tell if that article in the Onion about the Pope is supposed to be humerous or just written by a strange person?
Wow, that is just daft. Satire is great, but that shows an amazing lack of self awareness.
What are satirical magazines / website really?
No no.
Mine were MUCH better.
So, no chance of you spending the next 36 hours watching all his videos on youtube, then?
One of his former students recounts the torment of a deeply troubled figure:
Hitchens’ finest hour was skewering the proponents of the Valerie Plame ‘scandal’ (after James Bond, she was the world’s most well known ‘secret agent’) – LOOK BEHIND YOU; IT WAS DICK ARMITAGE ALL ALONG! – and the orchestrated denialism concocted by lying douchebag Joe Wilson regarding Saddam Hussein’s attempt to purchase yellowcake from Niger.
CL, which program? I’d love to here it.
liar-steve® at 12:48 pm:
ROTFLMAO
Those who act appropriately against abuse (like William Morris – ex Bishop of Toowoomba Diocese) are cast aside. Pell’s behaviour around this issue was cowardly.
Y’know Numbers, I never thought I’d see the day but you and I agree on something. The Bish was a good guy. This was obvious from his connection with the community, and so many genuine people in the community supporting him. I’m not Catholic, but I don’t see how the Church could see their treatment of him as being positive for their image or this community.
Or was the Bishop.
Sinclair might be a ripping bloke, but if he started spouting Keynesian nonsense we’d kick him to curb in second. That’s what happened to Bishop I’ll Make Up My Own Rules.
When, an if we reach Pope Benedict’s retiring age we will become aware of our diminishing strength and lack of mental acuity and energy.
Managing a 1 billion plus organisation, even with the assistance of the Holy Spirit might be a problem for ordinary mortals.
One thing is for sure though, Christopher Hitchens now knows whether he was right or wrong, and so will we some day.
“You say that the number of priestly pederasts has been ESTIMATED at 6%. Later you say that this evidence is incontrovertible. You can’t have it both ways”
OK – I’ll spell it out: 6% of priests are estimated to be sexual offenders against children based on fairly consistent reporting from many dioceses across several countries and the evidence that bishops and the Vatican moved these priests around and thereby contributed to the incidence of their crimes is incontrovertible. I expect more and more confirming evidence of the latter will be uncovered as the church’s files are subject to subpoena. If you challenge that statement, read the research and study the church’s response see if you can make a cases to the contrary, Cyril. Perhaps Catallaxy would publish it as a follow up? Samuel’s statement was really incredibly naive. I wish it were so, but it isn’t.
So to sum up, the Catholic Church gets a free pass for ignoring accusations of child abuse because other organisations have also failed in this area.
I have a theory on that one. Believe it or not Hitch was leading the charge against Bill and Hilary’s corruption and his attacks on women.
He lived in Washington, which means that his strident attacks on Billary would have meant his old leftwing buddies would have begun to consider him toxic.
The Mother T books was basically a way of sucking up to the left.
Fair dickum, his attacks on the CLintons was truly masterful.
Samuel J, Some priests have been convicted of sexual offences. The hierarchy keep moving these priests on to new parishes.
What they should have done is report these priests to the police. Agree?
That isn’t a summary, that it simply being facile.
I’m not Catholic but I’m really hoping for the Nigerian Pope Francis Arinze. I look forward to emails from the Vatican:
Dear Sir,
An unknown underworld identity has deposited the sum of nine million US dollars in a secret bank account and for some reason known only to God himself we need you to take this money. Please send us details so we can haxor your identity. In the name of the Pope and all that is holy.
No. To sum up, protestant churches and atheist state institutions (which are the worst child-molesting institutions of all) get a pass because the main game for leftists is to attack the Catholic Church.
Which doesn’t worry me – it’s very flattering.
The left has always been terrified of the Catholic Church.
Like Robert Menzies, who sucked up to the British aristocracy – for centuries, the greatest collection of homosexuals and child molesters in the Western world.
Ah no. Very strongly and definitively, no. Bill Morris was an intellectual pygmy and his ouster was widely celebrated. It was Bill Morris and his generation of touchy-feely liberals who systematically wrecked seminary education in Queensland, resulting in the decline of priestly discipline and intelligence. Having played a role in this monumental fuck-up, his Temple PR Squad now roams around claiming he was a whistleblowing Rambo – a completely dishonest fantasy.
Quite the opposite actually. He had the intellect to comprehend that his flock was diverse, and he sought always to minister to each member, irrespective of race, disability or gender, something sadly lacking in many other dioceses.
When I ran a special school in his diocese he came to visit. This was highly unusual (first time in my 18 years at that time as a principal). The reason? He wanted advice in developing a sacramental programme geared to the needs of Catholic kids with disabilities. He got it off the ground, and it’s still in place.
Again, quite the opposite is true. There was a street demonstration involving about a thousand people in a candlelight procession from the Bishop’s house to the Cathedral. It takes a lot to get people on the street in those numbers in sleepy old Toowoomba. Marquees had to be erected to accommodate the crowd at his farewell mass, and the local media was very supportive. He was (and is) a much loved pastor.
Complete fabrication. He had no links of this kind with the seminary which operates in its own little sphere far removed from Toowoomba. You’re fantasising. Morris was one of the few senior clergy who tried to address the recruitment of priests directly, particularly in rural and remote Queensland. This was one of the issues that outraged the temple police.
None of his supporters has ever used the term “whistleblower”. That’s something else you’ve made up. He did deal quickly and compassionately with child abuse in one of the primary schools in the diocese. It’s a pity Pell wasn’t so proactive.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Avoid posting crap in future.
Indeed:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/sacked-toowoomba-bishop-discovers-romes-word-still-law/story-e6frg6zo-1226059618972
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100053450/mass-rape-by-paedophile-catholic-priests-is-a-myth-says-secular-humanist-magazine/
Great article from Pearson – who tells the truth about the fraudulent, cowardly and uneducated Morris.
Bill Morris kept telling the Vatican to get stuffed … was never going to go well, though he seemed loved in his area and cared about where the church was heading.
Perhaps he needed a little more humility, as I think does Cardinal Pell does actually. Egos get in the way.
Like Jim Jones.
What a joke by Pearson that line is.
In huge numbers, Catholics have stopped going to one on one confession, and restricting Third Rite is not going to turn that tide back.
Jim Jones … now you’ll have 1735099 cranky, C.L!
In huge numbers, they stopped going to Mass too, Steve.
So those liberal changes worked well, huh?
The Third Rite was known colloquially as “Abracadabra confession.”
————————————
Another hilarious thing the dopey and notoriously vain Morris did was adandon episcopal attire for a business suit. The thinking was that he was thus dressed like ordinary Australian folk; but only the elites actually wear business suits. If he was fair dinkum – which he wasn’t – he would have worn an orange high-vis safety shirt and steel-capped boots. But he liked how he looked in a suit.
It was Bill MOrris asking for ordination of women that got him into serious trouble. Why be Catholic if that’s the case …
CL: The point is that those who go to Mass do not also go to confession.
I would bet my last dollar that the bishops and priests who supported Third Rite saw it better than having no one attending confession at all.
And I would also bet that stopping it has not seen any substantial increase in Mass attending Catholics going to confession.
My point was also that Pearson is showing the typical lack of charity that conservative Catholics on this site are famous for – he is claiming the Third Rite was wanted by priests for selfish reasons. Rubbish.
So? If people are attending Mass and accepting the Eucharist without attending Confession beforehand then they are behaving appallingly.
No, it is not a ‘lack of charity’ to criticize those who do wrong or those who facilitate and ease the conscience of those that do wrong. Charity involves bringing their error to their attention, asking that they repent and return, and forgiving them when they do.
I only know in my over 60 years I have no knowledge of any abuse. Church is full most Sundays. I withhold judgment until most of these allegations are tested in court.
Pell was personally accused by some misguided person and Pell was cleared. The person was never named. Only called x.
But the ABC and Fairfax will always continue the vendetta against the church.
By your miserable standards, I reckon 98% of Catholics receiving communion on any given Sunday are therefore “behaving appallingly”.
Look, I know the new Conservative Catholics known as the “Temple Police” sometimes have a point – extremely rarely – but they did have a point regarding St Mary’s South Brisbane, which was led by a priest who had in reality stopped believing in Jesus Christ in any meaningful sense.
But their main job seems to be to try to push the Church back into an ideological position pre Vatican 2, and the result would be a tiny, tiny number of faithful attending a tiny handful of Churches that congratulate themselves on their ideological purity.
It isn’t going to work. As Numbers said, the Church does change over time, and it is, and there is no point denying it or attempting to put some things back in the box where it will die.
I didn’t see it but I’m led to believe you once described yourself as a conservative Catholic.
Should the Church refuse to enforce Canon Law?
“The person was never named. Only called x.”
If I remember correctly, there has been a call in Germany for accused rapists to remain anonymous until conviction, due to the damage false accusations can do.
It’s not my standard, it’s the Church’s standard.
Except that, according to you, the ’98%’ currently attending are not faithful; in fact, it appears that they do not even particularly care to be faithful Catholics at all.
It has and it will. The changes you propose and have supported since the 60s have been intellectually, morally, spiritually and socially, a disaster, and yet you ask us to go even further into the breach.
You’re equivocating with respect to the word ‘change’. The Magisterium has two parts to it, one changeless once made, the other subject to revision where appropriate. Please stop these pee and thimble tricks.
Absolute fantasy.
I know the man.
I encountered him routinely in Cunnamulla, Thargomindah and Charleville as I travel in these areas. He is widely respected across the diocese. The American Bishop (Chaput) sent by the Vatican to spy on him refused an offer to travel out of Toowoomba to speak to those who knew his work.
As for his garb, Morris (without fanfare or publicity) shovelled mud to the point of exhaustion in areas destroyed by the deluge in 2010.
You’re typical of many who post here. You live in a weird Rightist fantasy making up “facts” to match your bigotry. Grow up….
The most important thing to emphasise about elitist snob in a business suit – Bill Morris – is that he was an intellectual coward. He deliberately essayed women’s ordination (infallibly dimissed for eternity by John Paul II) but then protested that he wasn’t ‘advocating’ it, he was merely ‘discussing’ it. Even the hayseeds in the local media didn’t read it that way. He lacked the courage of his convictions.
Steve posits the left-wing view of ‘charity’ (what a surprise).
Charity revolves around the truth – not the feelings of a mob.
Or do Bill Morris and his strange little cult of heretics also believe in the (frequently popular) death penalty?
- Pope John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, 1994.
——————————————-
But not for Proud Bill. ‘I’m the boss around these here parts. Yee-haaaaaaaa!’
No, you’re not.
See-ya. (Shut the door on your way out).
I’ll be sure and take this up with Tony Abbott, Malcolm Turnbull, Christopher Pyne and Joe Hockey at the first available opportunity.
Jeff, you forgot to wear your clown nose. No, no, you are right, it would have been superfluous.
Letter I wrote to George Pell on 23rd July 2011 –
Pell ignored this.
Bill Carter QC’s memorandum outlines the Church’s breach of its own processes.
Of course.
Of course.
“Nazi Ratzinger”
so it’s okay to call elderly frail holy men Nazi’s now?
You’re doing a good job of it on your own, Jeff. You don’t need any help at all from what I’m reading.
Dover
That isn’t a summary, that it simply being facile.
To see my comment was an accurate summary you only have to look at CL’s reply to comments down from yours.
I’m still waiting for apologists’ condemnation of all those who cover for kiddie fiddlers regardless of whether they are Catholic, protestant, atheist or Martian.
two comments down
I see a Time magazine article in 1977 which summarises the situation well:
Increasingly, it seems the only thing U.S. Catholics confess these days is that they rarely if ever confess. In a 2005 survey by the Center for Applied Research on the Apostolate at Georgetown University, 42% said they never go to confession. Only 14% said they go once a year, and just 2% said they go regularly. The fading away of one of Catholicism’s best-known traditions has finally gotten alarming enough that bishops have begun turning to modern marketing tools to reverse it. “Confession isn’t about rationalizing or explaining away the wrongs we do,” says Washington Archbishop Donald Wuerl, who has used radio commercials and billboard ads to promote the sacrament in his archdiocese. “It’s about having the courage to admit them and experience the healing forgiveness that’s waiting.”
Any revival effort has a long way to go. Confession has been in steady decline for decades. Reasons range from long-standing doubts about church teachings to the current obsession with public mea culpas that have largely supplanted the confessional booth. One oft mentioned cause is Vatican II, the 1960s church council whose reforms stressed what Pope John XXIII called “the medicine of mercy rather than that of severity.” Since confession, with its accompanying penances, is all too often associated with the latter, many Catholics use Vatican II as a cue to scratch the sacrament from their to-do list. Some also cite Pope Paul VI’s 1968 encyclical, Humanae Vitae (Of Human Life), which reaffirmed the church’s ban on contraception. Because few U.S. Catholics consider birth control immoral, Humanae Vitae has led to a wider re-evaluation of what constitutes sin–and whether confession is really necessary.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1666268,00.html#ixzz2MML0bPs9
and
Joseph Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth, because membership was required by law for all fourteen-year-old German boys, but refused to attend meetings; being compelled to join the Hitler Youth but leaving that organisation as soon as possible is enough to be defamed for ever after as “a former Nazi”. That seems fair and reasonable.
Jeff, that guy is talking from Britain, where half of all men are gay. (Sorry. I’m channelling IT.)
By liberal extremists who hate the Church.
- the Supreme Pontiff, Pope John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, 1994.
——————————————-
Note that ex-Catholic Morris’s cowardly ‘discussion’ of women’s ordination occurred 17 years after Pope John Paul’s infallible settlement of the question (forever).
It occurred 104 years after Pope Leo XIII declared (infallibly and forever) Anglican priestly orders invalid.
I’ve been told that Proud Bill wasn’t the sharpest tool in the drawer, education-wise.
But he does love how the media love him.
SDFC being childish:
Me being accurate:
The Catholic Church is the oldest and most successful institution on earth. It is the largest charity on the planet. It created Western civilisation as we have know it. It has defied and bested its enemies – including the (now failed) Anglican ‘Church’ (founded by syphilitic sex maniac and serial killer Henry VIII) and the USSR (whose demise was preponderantly brought about by John Paul II.
Now, as protestantism slowly dies around the world owing to its decision to obey the world, the Catholic Church marches forward, growing in influence and missionary efficacy throughout Africa and South America and Asia.
Finally, no institution on earth saves, feeds, educates, heals and lifts up more children than the Catholic Church. Every day, year in and year out. Nothing can stop it.
We always win. Deo gratias.
Sfb, I think you meant 2007 article.
Yes I did.
Catholics Catholics ring the bell
Prodies Prodies go to hell.
I see no where in the Morris letter where he endorsed ordaining women.
Seems he was sacked for noting that people had talked about it, which was no doubt true.
He said it was a matter open to discussion, but given JPII’s Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, it was not. There endeth the matter.
Whatever happened to treating everyone the same?
Funnily enough, the church I go to doesn’t have that problem. During the High Mass there’s always a queue for the Confessional.
Yes, but Peter and rock are different genders; Πέτρος, “Peter”, is masculine but πέτρα, “rock”, is feminine:
Πέτρος is a movable or rolling stone, easily moved or thrown, whereas πέτρα is solid rock or a shelf, or even a cliff, resolute and immobile. Note also that the gates of Hades will not prevail “against it” not “against thee”.
A less ambiguous translation (whilst still retaining a flavour of the wordplay), perhaps, would be:
There is no basis, other than that punning reference to Peter, whom Jesus addresses, to assert that Jesus would establish His church on the vacillating, restless Peter; nay, rather, Peter is insufficiently steadfast, and Jesus explicitly prefers solidity; but, in the next verse, Jesus explains that He’ll give Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven—not, I submit, in addition to being the rock whereon the Church is built.
What’s more, Peter himself (in 1 Peter II, 4-8) explains that Jesus is the foundation stone.
Um Deadman, Peter likely didn’t write either of the epistles attributed to him – and most definitely not the second one.
Well, Quentin George, whether scholars dispute the authorship of the first epistle of Peter or not, the author—in the voice of Peter and in the lifetime of Peter or very soon thereafter, calls Jesus and not Peter the rock.
Traditionalist Catholics who attend churches of the like minded think that the enthusiasm they see around them translates to the broader Church.
You saw the same thing at St Marys – it attracted disgruntled liberal Catholics from all over Brisbane, and they also mistake their numbers as more significant than they truly are, and similarly proclaim theirs is the way of the future, too.
Sfb is proposing a ‘via media’.
Steve, when the congregation is growing, then I have no problem thinking that the broader Church is undergoing some changes.
We have people coming from all over Melbourne, and one of the churches closer to home here now has a Latin Mass every sunday morning rather than just the first sunday of the month.
I wonder what that would indicate?
@Nilk
That is precisely what he was doing. By establishing a sacramental programme for children with disabilities, he was providing them with the same pastoral care as all children.
Prior to that, they simply weren’t included.
@CL
You’re displaying your gross ignorance. He’s still saying mass – still a Catholic.
Another example of making stuff up. You’ve been taking lessons from
BlotBolt.Perhaps the Catholic Church just needs another split, d-b.
Modern technology can cover this – some cells gathered from the next Pope will be capable of cloning. The resultant baby will be capable of claiming apostolic succession as well. He can form the breakaway arm of the Church that’s OK with contraception, ejaculations outside of the vagina, married clergy, the Third Rite, and lesbians being Pope. (I’m not so keen on the last bit, but I’m not sure it can be stopped.)
Each branch of the faith will then proceed happily along claiming to be the true Church, and they will both be right.
[I like to plan ahead.]
So, nilk, you’re confirming exactly what I said. You’re going to a Church that is drawing a congregation from all over the place. They all think like you, and quite unlike the vastly more numerous laity attending Church in their local parishes.
You think this shows that Traditionalists (I am not sure of a better name) are the way forward because of a relatively small number of fellow enthusiasts you see each week.
This is quite illusory.
No, Steve, what I’m seeing is people disillusioned with the liberal, leftward-leaning types and the Novus Ordo.
People are prepared to travel to fulfil their sunday obligation to go to Mass. Given that some travel a couple of hours each way, that’s no mean feat.
Of course, not every congregant is there every week due to the distance, but we’ve even some who come down from the country.
There are also growing Traditionalist congregations in country Victoria, so it’s not just my imagination.
As people do as Pope Benedict asked and learn their Faith as opposed to just going through the motions, I suspect you will see more of this.
Give me numbers, nilk, and then we’ll know who’s right.
It’s also remarkable the resistance to the Latin in some catholic quarters. I was speaking with a local priest and mentioned that I attended a Trad Mass, and the first thing out of his mouth was that he wasn’t introducing the Latin to his parish.
He also waffled on about it being my ‘spirituality’ if I wanted to go Latin.
Since the conversation wasn’t about how he runs his Masses, I was quite bemused by that, and a touch insulted.
But then I felt sorry for him. It truly is a loss if he can’t see the beauty in the Extraordinary Form.
No. No he won’t.
Jeremiah(5:21) obviously knew fuckwits like liar-steve®:
I don’t do surveys, Steve.
I can tell you of my current experience, but you just dismiss it. That’s okay – it only takes a tiny minority to effect change, doesn’t it?
Look at how one Bishop in Toowoomba caused such a furore.
Look at how a humble man from Germany has polarised so many people (yes, I read Jeff’s bile. Poor thing. )
LOL @ JamesK
Mainly for d-b, here’s some material relating to the Church in Australia.
(I want to again emphasise that it confirms my original point that it was ludicrous of Pearson to say that it was lazy priests who wanted the Third Rite. The vast majority of priests had, and still have, virtually no one coming to confession and had no work in that regard to avoid):
This research also strongly indicates that a bunch of newly conservative priests, either from here or overseas, the likes of whom nilk and Phillipa Matyr both seem to think will lead to a revival of the Church here, is extremely likely not to have the effect of increasing the proportion of mass attending Catholics.
[I do not claim that gay marriage blessing liberal women priests would also lead to a revival - the Anglican Church is an example of that strategy not working.]
The link for the last quote: here.
Ah JamesK: the most intensely Catholic non Catholic on the face of the planet.
Sorry, sfb, but you will never be Pope.
Don’t sell yourself short, Steve.
I had to laugh at your 9:25, Steve, by the way.
Liberal flakes have had the run of things in the Australian church for nearly 50 years.
All of the subsequent disasters are theirs and theirs alone.
————————————————–
A complete, black lie.
————————————————–
With respect to St Peter – or Pope Peter – his premiership of the Apostles and his status as first among them, as also the status of his successor the Bishop of Rome, is acknowledged by the Orthodox and even the Anglicans now.
And yes, the vacillating and weak Peter is exactly the man I would expect Christ to choose as the Rock. That’s how Our Lord rolled.
It’s also nearly 50 years since Humanae Vitae, a teaching which brought into sharp focus the uneasy position of the Church regarding the issue of conscience, its teaching authority, and its willingness to draw some incredibly and implausibly fine lines in matters of sexuality.
In truth, the modern position of the Church is not wholly due to that – it’s been a slow moving crisis of how to respond to “modernity” in a general sense.
The Traditionalists response is to continue to hope to avoid the questions.
It will not work.
Liberals simply haven’t spelled out a principled alternative. You, yourself, admit that on these matters that principle should give way to intuition.
No, the questions have not been avoided, you just don’t like the answers given.
Bulldust. You conveniently forget (not for the first time) that there was a Papal Birth Control Commission with this result:
The vote amongst the bishops on the commission was 9 to 3 in favour of this, with 3 abstaining.
Were they just all unprincipled liberal flakes?
15 of the 19 theologians also voted in favour, as well as 30 of the 35 lay members.
Liberal flakes one and all, I suppose.
Yes.
See also Bill Morris – the Toowoomba yahoo who brought up priestesses and non-Catholic priests (for Catholics) 17 years after Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and 104 years after Apostolicae Curae. (Both infallible and eternal).
Dear extremist liberals: please have the balls to leave.
Dawkins is much braver than the cowardly pope on this matter. Dawkins may not have been willing to criticise Islam on Al-Jazeera, but he has done so on many other occasions.
Your heroic pope, on the other hand, condemned the Mohammed Cartoons.
@CL
You’ve done it again – making stuff up.
Ive worked in Special Education since 1971 in all parts of Queensland and attended many different parishes. One of the recurring complaints I heard from Catholic parents (when they discovered I was also Catholic) was that their kids couldn’t access the sacraments.
This remained the case until shortly after I moved to Toowoomba, and SPRED was established.
CL – you have absolutely no idea…
I wasn’t thinking particularly about contraception, sfb. On that matter, I can see how people, given the same principles, could disagree as to their application. What disturbs me about the so-called liberal Catholics, however, is that they no longer accept the same principles.
Hardly, since the Pope Emeritus came under significant criticism for his comments on Islam in his Regensburg lecture.
He did so for the same reason you condemned gay-bashing on the other thread.
“Speaking of intellectual cowards …”
Richard Dawkins is an atheist who makes a very fine living talking about God, it’s a little off beat really. He does seem scared of offending Isalm though, probably a natural reaction.
Yep, Dawkins is my kind of hero, Yobs. Yours too from what I gather.
He sucks up to a leftwing audience well, doncha think?
So this ignorant bully wanna be is your fucking hero, yea?