White smoke just coming out now
UPDATE (06:18) Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Argentina is now Pope Francis I – the first Jesuit to be Pope.
UPDATE 2 (06:22) New Pope emerges on the balcony.
Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum;
habemus Papam:
Eminentissimum ac Reverendissimum Dominum,
Dominum Georgium Marium
Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinalem Bergoglio
qui sibi nomen imposuit Franciscum
An outsider gets up:
Tom
14 Mar 13 at 6:20 am
Snippets: first non-European, first Jesuit, opponent of gay marriage.
Tom
14 Mar 13 at 6:22 am
It is 3.37 am here in KL. Reaction is muted.
JakartaJaap
14 Mar 13 at 6:37 am
I think the luvvies will be throwing gantries that the Catholic Church refused to follow their directions and appoint a black supporter of late term abortion and gay marriage.
Token
14 Mar 13 at 6:39 am
Wow, that wiki says he’s taken the name Francis after Francis of Assissi
Token
14 Mar 13 at 6:40 am
Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Argentina was elected in a surprise choice to be the new leader of the troubled Roman Catholic Church on Wednesday, and said he would take the name Francis I.
Tom
14 Mar 13 at 6:42 am
Precisely Token.
A social commentator on ABC just saying he “is more conservative than we were hoping for”
Who is “we” exactly?
A bunch of first world atheists think they have a vote in this.
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 7:02 am
Troubled? Only to the statists who worship graven images and the pseudoreligion AGW.
I see Pope Francis has got in troble with the pension stealing autocrat in charge of Argentina.
Is it toomuch to hope for that we get another reformer emerge from the Vatican, who follows John Paul II and improves the life of the people in his home region by standing up to the South American statist autocrats.
If he did he could be another epoch defining leader.
Token
14 Mar 13 at 7:05 am
LOL I was watching the ALPBC and the tag at the bottom noted that the new Pope is quite conservative and known to be against abortion, ssm and euthanasia. I could hear skulls imploding all over.
nilk
14 Mar 13 at 7:15 am
Any boss who sacks a Catholic for not turning up to work today is a bum.
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 7:18 am
Apparently he was runner up 8 years ago
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 7:23 am
Oh, and there were all these people there at the Vatican just waiting for the news.
FFS, anyhone would think that there were only about 14 catholics in the world.
nilk
14 Mar 13 at 7:23 am
Canterbury Tales blog:
10 Facts about our new Holy Father Pope Francis. Major curveball. Who saw this coming? Here are 10 quick facts about Pope Francis (Jorge Cardinal Bergoglio):
Pope Francis, Jorge Bergoglio, was born in Buenos Aires, one of the five children of an Italian railway worker and his wife.
He’s a Jesuit. The first Jesuit Pope ever.
Pope Francis is known for his humility, doctrinal conservatism, defender of the Church’s moral theology, and a commitment to social justice.
He has been critical of liberation theology.
He is close to Comunione e Liberazione.
He has opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage.
In Argentina, he has been accused by anti-clericalists as being “medieval” (another good sign).
Pope John Paul II made him a cardinal in 2001.
He has served on the Congregation of Clergy, Congregation of Divine Worship and Sacraments, Congregation of Institutes of Consecrated Life, the Congregation of Societies of Apostolic Life, and the Commission on Latin American and the Family Council.
He was concurrently named ordinary for Eastern Catholics in Argentina, who lacked their own prelate. So he can, presumably, celebrate the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 7:26 am
Tom – he is not the first non-European. Where do you think St Peter was born? He is the 11th non-European, the most recent being Pope Gregory III who was born in Syria.
Samuel J
14 Mar 13 at 7:27 am
I guess the heretics over at Catholica won’t be too happy.
nilk
14 Mar 13 at 7:37 am
My bad, SJ.
Tom
14 Mar 13 at 7:38 am
John Allen 10 days ago:
Bergoglio may be basically conservative on many issues, but he’s no defender of clerical privilege, or insensitive to pastoral realities. In September 2012, he delivered a blistering attack on priests who refuse to baptize children born out of wedlock, calling it a form of “rigorous and hypocritical neo-clericalism.”
The case for Bergoglio in 2013 rests on four points.
First and most basically, he had strong support last time around, and some cardinals may think that they’re getting another bite at the apple now.
Second, Bergoglio is a candidates who brings together the first world and the developing world in his own person. He’s a Latin American with Italian roots, who studied in Germany. As a Jesuit he’s a member of a truly international religious community, and his ties to Comunione e Liberazione make him part of another global network.
Third, Bergoglio still has appeal across the usual divides in the church, drawing respect from both conservatives and moderates for his keen pastoral sense, his intelligence, and his personal modesty. He’s also seen as a genuinely spiritual soul, and a man of deep prayer.
“Only someone who has encountered mercy, who has been caressed by the tenderness of mercy, is happy and comfortable with the Lord,” Bergoglio said in 2001. “I beg the theologians who are present not to turn me in to the Sant’Uffizio or the Inquisition; however, forcing things a bit, I dare to say that the privileged locus of the encounter is the caress of the mercy of Jesus Christ on my sin.”
Fourth, he’s also seen as a successful evangelist.
“We have to avoid the spiritual sickness of a self-referential church,” Bergoglio said recently. “It’s true that when you get out into the street, as happens to every man and woman, there can be accidents. However, if the church remains closed in on itself, self-referential, it gets old. Between a church that suffers accidents in the street, and a church that’s sick because it’s self-referential, I have no doubts about preferring the former.”
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 7:41 am
Long live Pope Francis!
81Alpha
14 Mar 13 at 7:49 am
Note that St Francis of Assisi was called ‘The Peaceful Crusader’ after his dialogue with Muslims.
one old bruce
14 Mar 13 at 7:49 am
The sanctimonious athiests at ABC News24 are most upset that Frank The First won’t be following the radical left’s political agenda on abortion and SSM. Prepare for 24 hours of rabid feralism from the fruitcakes.
Tom
14 Mar 13 at 7:58 am
How would anyone know?
jupes
14 Mar 13 at 8:04 am
… and in late breaking shock news, the College of Cardinals have elected a Catholic as their new Pope.
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 8:06 am
One hopes for his sake there weren’t any “accidents” involving young parishioners and priests under his watch.
m0nty
14 Mar 13 at 8:06 am
Not a surprising mistake Tom.
Anyone taught about history after the socialists got their hands on the textbooks would not know that the Mediterrean was a Christian sea before the muzzies arrived and how senior the patriarch of Antioch was.
Token
14 Mar 13 at 8:08 am
The Metro live blog was amusing.
m0nty
14 Mar 13 at 8:09 am
You are not trying to score petty political points around such a serious issue like child abuse, are you M0nty? That would prove you are sick and perverted.
No one can promise that M0nty.
Statistically it is less likely than abuse of young students under the supervision of secular teachers.
Token
14 Mar 13 at 8:11 am
mOron would love some allegations to arise.
Tiny Dancer
14 Mar 13 at 8:25 am
It is going to be wonderful to read his first Papal encyclical – no doubt being his infallable directive to the world’s Catholics regarding the moral ownership of the Falkland Islands, from the perspective of Argentina’s first Pope.
As Obummer would say – “Shouldn’t we all just sit down and talk about the Maldives?”
Kaboom
14 Mar 13 at 8:35 am
What mUnty?
Like using members money to visit hookers (allegedly).
Or setting up a slush fund for a boyfriend and partaking of the spoils in the form of renovations and clothes (allegedly).
Or taking a paper bag full of cash to grant a mining lease to his mate.
Is that the sort of thing you are concerned about?
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 8:40 am
When was the last time the ABC got stuck into the Mullah of Akemba or the Imam of Broadmeadows for being “anti abortion” or “holding conservative views on gay marriage”?
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 8:42 am
Akemba = Lakemba
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 8:43 am
Hopefully another John 23rd. Hopefully he will reign in the Curia. Hopefully he will combine a Jesuit sense of social justice with his theological conservatism. He has a record of this fine balancing act in Argentina.
1735099
14 Mar 13 at 8:45 am
He has a lovely smile and seems warm hearted and down to earth from his manner, on the balcony video.
candy
14 Mar 13 at 9:08 am
some background…
http://americasouthandnorth.wordpress.com/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/04/argenitina-videla-bergoglio-repentance
codger
14 Mar 13 at 9:09 am
It is very disappointing that they’ve appointed a mediaevalist as Pope. Yes I was hoping that they’d elect someone to bring the church into the twentieth(sic) century.
hammygar
14 Mar 13 at 9:15 am
Are you a Catholic too Hammygar?
candy
14 Mar 13 at 9:19 am
You ought to like kero. He seems fond of shoscial justice, like all statist argies. Hey kero, he may even give you special dispensation and allow you the big gates when you finally decide to pour the kerosene a light that match.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 9:26 am
You ought to like him kero. He seems fond of shoscial justice, like all statist argies. Hey kero, he may even give you special dispensation and allow you the big gates when you finally decide to pour the kerosene a light that match.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 9:28 am
Cool. First black Pope!
(wizard wheeze for Catholics there – explanatory note for everyone else: the Jesuit General used to be called ‘the black Pope’. Pope Francis is a Jesuit. Geddit, geddit?)
I’d say there’s been a big swing against the ABC in the seat of Rome. HAHAHAHAHAHA
Philippa Martyr
14 Mar 13 at 9:29 am
Yobbo often says the Hamster is the Alene Composta of the Left and that he’s merely a parody of leftist stupidity.
But the Hamster’s last comment would have been far too restrained to have been written by Yobbo himself.
Oh the irony!
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 9:31 am
PS On refusing to baptise babies of sole parents – just want to explain now that THIS IS NOT A CATHOLIC PRACTICE. This was clearly a local issue Bergoglio had to deal with in his diocese, and I’d say it’s one that turns up where there’s a lot of machismo in the local population. It is pure hypocrisy; he’s dead right.
But it’s not an issue we’ve had to face in Australia; I’ve never heard of a case here where a priest has refused a sole parent’s baby baptism.
Philippa Martyr
14 Mar 13 at 9:34 am
somebackground
http://americasouthandnorth.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/on-the-selection-of-jorge-mario-bergoglio-as-pope-francisco/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/04/argenitina-videla-bergoglio-repentance
codger
14 Mar 13 at 9:36 am
This affects the whole of humanity, not just the one-sixth who call themselves Catholic. The decision is a disaster for the other 6 billion inhabitants of the planet.
hammygar
14 Mar 13 at 9:36 am
You’re not paying attention, Hammy. Your communist brother-in-arms set the example upthread by posting his first actual non-trolling contribution to the Cat.
Tom
14 Mar 13 at 9:36 am
oops
codger
14 Mar 13 at 9:37 am
Are you a right-wing plant Hammygar?
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 9:42 am
That would be the senior ranks of the liars party, fatboy.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 9:42 am
Let’s hope Francis 1 reads Mary McAleese’s Quo Vadis.
I wonder if it is available in Spanish.
Extract from a very interesting interview done by Sara McDonald of ciNews with former Irish President Mary McAleese.
1735099
14 Mar 13 at 10:08 am
Hammy, by your own numbers, surely you mean 1 seventh who call themselves Catholic?
Do try to troll better, there’s a good chap.
Derp
14 Mar 13 at 10:13 am
Mary McAleese is a nice lady but she is a liberal leftist.
Why would the new Pope want to listen to a leftist who believes the future of the Church is with liberalistion?
It most clearly is not.
The Catholic Church is far more vibrant than any other branch of Christianity with the exception of protestant evangeicalism in the US.
And the Church is more theologically sound than any other branch of Christianity.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 10:19 am
I love Hammy. Mind you, I’ve been up since around 3am or whenever it was that the texts started arriving on the little phone next to the bed. Damn those flashing lights.
And I’m also trying to see things from his point of view. A disaster for 6 billion people is a big call. Has the Pope got nukes? Will he use them? Will he – like Tony Abbott – go round with gaffer tape, taping people’s mouths shut to stop dissent? It’s going to take him a while to do that, and that’s a lot of gaffer tape.
Or will he take a more old-fashioned approach, like poisoning the wells?
Headline: Pope Goes Crazy With Anthrax
Philippa Martyr
14 Mar 13 at 10:22 am
No good can come of this.
Infidel tiger
14 Mar 13 at 10:29 am
Tripe. They’ve had that power and ability for around twenty centuries. Some have made excellent use of it; others have abused it.
Unfortunately, bishops are usually the first to crumble when the political heat is on, with some notable and saintly exceptions.
And these days, when things get tough, they all start hiding behind each other via the local Bishops Conference. So they can make decisions collectively, and then blame the Conference for bad ones, and take individual credit for the good ones.
Benedict XVI sacked a LOT of bishops, and probably Francis I needs to sack a lot more.
Philippa Martyr
14 Mar 13 at 10:29 am
I wanted the smiley Cardinal Tagle from Manila. He’s the happiest looking Cardinal I’ve ever seen.
A Cardinal from South America who goes on and on about the inadequacies and social injustice in unregulated capitalism is just what we need to attack the Tea Party Catholics who think Ayn Rand has something to teach them.
(This creepy alliance between socially conservative Catholics and Randian economics that we see in the likes of Paul Ryan just has to end if the Republicans want to regain credibility.)
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 10:48 am
I know it has been said a million times before liar, but you are a twittering leftist fuckwit
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 10:53 am
Perhaps – but they’ve not used it.
Source
Moving to a collegiate model of governance was a clear recommendation from Vatican 2. The church simply hasn’t gotten round to it, stymied by collective inertia, the fact that the participants dispersed once Vatican 2 was over, and resistance from the bureaucracy in the Curia.
1735099
14 Mar 13 at 10:55 am
Hammy..the term mediaevalist is trade marked and owned by Islam.
I know you worship Onan, but you should broaden your knowledge
Steve of Glasshouse
14 Mar 13 at 10:56 am
I think commitment to ‘social justice’ is a God church centered approach at the personal level the traditional way, not a society/government approach, almost two different things.
candy
14 Mar 13 at 11:00 am
Yay!
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:01 am
LOL.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:01 am
Given that Jesuits are big into education and academic stuff, I would certainly hope and expect that Francis I will continue with Benedict’s clear acceptance of the science of climate change and encouragement that nations do what they can to limit CO2, as the adverse effects are likely to be felt strongest by the poor.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 11:01 am
‘ “Pope Francis is known for his humility, doctrinal conservatism, defender of the Church’s moral theology, and a commitment to social justice.”
No good can come of this.’
Indeed, Infidel. Via Distributism, the Catholic Church represents a threat to liberalism from both left and right, simultaneously! Jurgen Habermas and the EU project have more commonality with Catholicism than differences. Some Catholics even consider an alliance with Muslims, united versus the modern atheistic world. 200 or so years of liberalism can appear fleeting and ambivalent. Who knows what the future holds?
one old bruce
14 Mar 13 at 11:07 am
The Guardian has been the first paper to bring up one questionable issue from the new Pope’s past.
I guess we’ll hear more about that soon…
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 11:07 am
Meanwhile, the new ‘Archbishop’ of Canterbury (whose appointment nobody cares about) says he used to be a dole-bludger.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:08 am
Pope Francis will of course make ‘Catholics’ like Steve and Nancy Pelosi outraged by reminding them that their passionate support for abortion means they’re self-excommunicated heretics.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:11 am
Social Justice has come up on this thread in connection with Francis 1.
I wonder whether there is a common understanding of the term.
From a conservative Christian website –
1735099
14 Mar 13 at 11:15 am
JamesK, that would be Protestant evangelism throughout the world. Listening to the jesuit interviewed on the Beeb immediately after the election one of his principal talking points was how Our Frank knew how to deal with ‘Protestant fundamentalism and Evangelism’. Clearly seen by this SJ as far more important than other threats viz liberalism or the ‘other’ Presbyterians- one trusts that there will be no revival of previous papal practices in this regard. Searching for Foxes’s Book of Martyrs as we speak…..
JakartaJaap
14 Mar 13 at 11:16 am
Interesting article about abortion in South America at the Guardian too:
CL’s attitude: “so what?”
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 11:17 am
World ends, women and minorities hardest hit …
Matt
14 Mar 13 at 11:19 am
Social Justice is a euphemism for Marxism.
twostix
14 Mar 13 at 11:22 am
Excellent: Pope Francis agrees with me that homosexuals adopting children is child abuse. He has also pointed out that ‘Catholics’ like Steve and Joe Biden cannot receive communion.
He has also condemned euthanasia and contraception.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:23 am
Steve has his “conservative catholic” persona on again today.
How quaint.
twostix
14 Mar 13 at 11:25 am
In the West, yes.
In South America it can just be the demand that people not be disappeared at 3 in the morning or that plutocratic leeches not be enriched by the politicians they own.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:25 am
Maybe this is the ultimate reward for the Ratlines through to Argentina after WW2, where the religious hierarchy helped out resettling Nazi war criminals.
Funny that there has been a waft of National Socialism pervading the two most recent Papacies…
Kaboom
14 Mar 13 at 11:26 am
Maybe this is the ultimate reward for the Ratlines through to Argentina after WW2, where the religious hierarchy helped out resettling various war criminals.
Funny that there has been a waft of National Socialism pervading the two most recent Papacies…
Kaboom
14 Mar 13 at 11:28 am
Is the Protestent propaganda piece Foxe’s Book of Martyrs is the best you’ve got?
Token
14 Mar 13 at 11:28 am
Only in your confused mind.
There are commonalities and differences.
Read this – it may open your closed mind.
An extract –
1735099
14 Mar 13 at 11:29 am
Sorry for the dup – thought I was being blocked for using the “N” word…
Kaboom
14 Mar 13 at 11:29 am
In South America politicians from the left & right are all crony capitalists. There is no comparison to Anglo-type honest small government.
Token
14 Mar 13 at 11:30 am
Hey, nobody talks about protestantism any more.
What happened?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xb7AVw_no0
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:31 am
Booooooooooooooooo stayed up on the couch in Perth till 1am, fell asleep. Woke up late becos of late night.
“Be alert, for you do not know when the master of the house will return!”
Lysander Spooner
14 Mar 13 at 11:41 am
Once again SoB lecturs on topics he doesn’t understand. Are you going to discuss your view on economics from the vantage point of the economically illiterate?
As Dan Hannan noted when the ABC’s hero Chavez died:
South Americans dream of the day when they have small accountable governments instead of sprawling governments enriching cronies (i.e. they would love the type of society the Tea Party is fighting for).
Of course SoB is still dreaming his delusions of strong men imposing a socialist hell on the world in the name of the AGW graven image he worships
Token
14 Mar 13 at 11:45 am
LOL
Numbers lies like liar-steve®.
Wheaton is an infamous leftist Christian, one the aptly termed aggressive liberal wolves in sheeps’ clothing of believers.
What these wolves are striving for is government transfer of wealth from one group of citizens to another ie leftist first and Christian second.
The taxation system advocated in the Bible is tithes ie a flat tax.
Alms giving is encouraged by the Church but encouraging the state to steal more from its wealthier citizens to redistribute is not.
One is free will the other is not.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 11:46 am
Meanwhile… having followed the lead of left-wing failed priest Paul Collins and astroturf outfit – Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests (SNAP) – a local phony Catholic news agency has issued a humiliating apology to Cardinal Pell.
It was either that or start selling their houses.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:54 am
Only in your confused mind.
LOL to “prove” that “Social Justice” isn’t simply a euphemism for marxism you link to an article arguing that Christianity is just like Communism.
twostix
14 Mar 13 at 12:07 pm
Must be terribly limiting to live in a binary world of Left and Right.
Get out a little more and observe that most can’t be classified as simply as that.
1735099
14 Mar 13 at 12:16 pm
So I’m right.
And numbers was disingenuous (kind)/ lied (accurate) when he asserted Wheaton’s leftist drivel was “(F)rom a conservative Christian website”
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 12:19 pm
JamesK also believes all atheists are leftists. Because god gives us not only all morality, but the ability to understand economics.
JamesK is not a smart man.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 12:21 pm
Well I often note you side with leftist and talk vile bigoted shite like so many leftists Yobbo.
In fact I mentioned you in dispatches at 9:31 am
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 12:26 pm
That’s a fair assessment.
He’s very limited.
Anyone he disagees with is a “liar”.
He rarely gets beyond labels.
He dispalys an incapacity to tolerate two slightly different concepts at once.
1735099
14 Mar 13 at 12:28 pm
Yes, we already know you’re obsessed with me James.
I’m just glad I’m not an altar boy.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 12:29 pm
Silly , if true. Almost as silly as Yobbo’s belief:
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 12:31 pm
I just hammer your bigotry Yobbo and many of your former supporters at this blog see you as such now.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 12:31 pm
Former supporters? Yobbo hasn’t lost any supporters around here. The “debate” you’ve been having with Yobbo is mild by Cat standards. Previous debates have developed into actual bar fights. Ask JC, Soon and Bird.
You need to dial it down a notch Jimmy.
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 12:35 pm
CL @11.23: Presumably, you think this principle means Tony Abbott (who has come out for abortion being safe legal and rare, and who certainly deny that he would interfere with Medicare funding of abortion) must stop receiving communion.
He is (unlike me, who just watches from the sidelines) a politician with a direct ability to adopt policies that would follow Catholic teaching.
Yet you spend all your time calling Democrats you don’t like bad Catholics, and nary a word about Tony Abbott or the other Catholics on the Coalition.
Why is that?
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 12:37 pm
I’d win at that too.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 12:37 pm
The following quote is probably a good indicator as to what he thinks social justice is about:
And I doubt that’s a particularly radical view in the Catholic church.
Chris
14 Mar 13 at 12:41 pm
while leadership renewal is one way that disgraced institutions can seek to rehabilitate their reputation, the new CEO at pedo-central would need more wisdom than Solomon to deal with the stench that emitting from the Catholic Church. Alas, he is just a fallible human being, and another old, conservative, pious male to boot, so those relying on this change to bring about the church’s redemption any time soon will probably be disappointed.
William Bragg
14 Mar 13 at 12:41 pm
Because you are a filthy leftist who would throw sand in his eyes and then kick him while he was blinded.
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 12:42 pm
Commie shit head.
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 12:44 pm
Sez… IT!!!
So IT now protects the indefensible hatred of his fellow Sandgroper
Does IT daily chant “Sandropers united will never be defeated!”?
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 1:01 pm
Has Mark Scott been replaced?
Steve of Ferny Hills
14 Mar 13 at 1:02 pm
Yes he f-ckin’ well has.
Most people groan.
Even atheists like JC notice the stultifying hatred chip he wears proudly on his shoulder
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 1:03 pm
He won’t need material to be in Spanish to be able to read it; papabili are invariably multilingual. Besides which, Jesuits are required these days to learn English (or if English is their first language, Spanish.)
vlad
14 Mar 13 at 1:06 pm
Ahahahahaha.
No no, Steve. Abbott is hated by lefties like you and Emily’s List precisely because he is notorious for opposing abortion, inter alia.
You must stick to the basics of your script.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 1:08 pm
I don’t think Yobbo has supporters as such; more those who agree with him and those who don’t.
To the Ratlines idiot – the left’s attempts to smear the last pope by trumping up his “Nazi past”, and then mentioning it at every opportunity, was as lame as it was shamefully dishonest. Yours is beyond pathetic.
Oh come on
14 Mar 13 at 1:08 pm
I will wait until I know more about the Pope. So much to me now is still media filtered.
stackja
14 Mar 13 at 1:09 pm
We all know Yobbo is an evangelical atheist. He does come across like a JW at times, but a lot of people get wrapped up in their faith.
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 1:12 pm
Whether or not Yobbo has lost any, I’m sure as hell certain you haven’t gained any, JamesK.
Apart from my not agreeing at all with his views on sex, prostitution, drugs, atheism or economics, Yobbo at least does not present as someone who one would want to necessarily avoid in a social setting. (Provided he wasn’t peddling anything illegal at the time.) Being around a seething bitter ball of hate drinking by himself in the corner, which is virtually everyone’s image of you, is another matter entirely.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 1:13 pm
Does the pope do more than wave occasionally from his balcony anyway?
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 1:14 pm
Bill Ludwig has stepped down?
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 1:15 pm
Indeed.
Yobbo is the real fundie.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 1:15 pm
If they do not start with a respect of property rights, all their other efforts will come to naught.
Token
14 Mar 13 at 1:16 pm
Watching videos of hitchens for 36 hours will have that effect.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 1:16 pm
Coming from the loathsome liar-steve®, that opinion is a badge of honour for me.
Thank you so much liar!
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 1:17 pm
For sure.
Pope John Paul II, for example, rescued Europe from the USSR.
So yeah. That sort of thing.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 1:17 pm
How do they change the colour of the smoke?
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 1:19 pm
So… Basically a rid the world of an evil empire one year, wave for thirty sort of gig?
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 1:19 pm
His publicly-expressed support for IVF, which is also in direct contradiction to Church teaching, would also put a big question mark over his brand of ‘Catholicism’.
Or has he in fact publicly expressed support for IVF – or just supported people going through it? Is it like his relationship with his sister – she’s gay, and he loves her, but that doesn’t mean he supports gay marriage or that lifestyle?
There is such a thing as loving the sinner and hating the sin.
I don’t know. What I do know is that most of the Catholics I know – who are practising, and who choose pro-life candidates to vote for, regardless of party – tend to see Abbott as a ‘cafeteria Catholic’ who picks and chooses what he believes. He may not be in favour of the various liturgical abuses we’ve had to suffer over the years, but I’m not even sure if he’s a regular Mass-goer or not.
Philippa Martyr
14 Mar 13 at 1:20 pm
Change the chemicals on the voting slips.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 1:20 pm
You dishonest clown, CL.
You will not admit that Abbott is furiously busy stating that he will not take any measures to interfere with abortion funding by a government he would lead, and that he supports IVF (a procedure known to create an excess of embryos, the great majority of which will be disposed of), and you seek to excuse your hypocritical failure to condemn him by the same standards you apply to US Democrats by some sort of “well, he’s only doing saying this for political purposes.”
His actions will speak louder than words, CL, and we all know that he will indeed live up to his promises regarding abortion.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 1:20 pm
Say, Mr Pot – I’d like you to meet Mr Kettle.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 1:22 pm
Somewhat off topic , but would people on here suggest that Catholics are treated any differently, or are culturally different in Australia than other branches of the church?
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 1:24 pm
Steve is arguing that Tony Abbott is a notorious supporter of abortion.
Steve didn’t get the Emily’s List memo.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 1:24 pm
“Conservative catholic” Steve is in his element. He gets to trash and lie about the Pope, Abbott and CL all on the one thread. He must think all his birthdays have come at once.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 1:26 pm
Cute summary.
There are plenty more despots in the world when one falls. If Pope Francis I makes a stand against Equador’s Corea, Argentina’s Kirchner & Bolivia’s Morales, and finally allow the poor in South America to achieve freedom, I’m sure people won’t mind if he spends the remaining time waving
.
Token
14 Mar 13 at 1:26 pm
Oh for goodness sake, Philippa:
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 1:28 pm
Sounds like Labor has thrown a short notice abortion/euthanasia double header down here in Tassie.
Reduced down though, it’s the same argument. Can we declare someone less than human?
On occasion, hard decisions have to be made. As long as the consequences are borne, I’m fine with that. A jury trial for every abortion or euthanasia would provide a good balance.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 1:30 pm
Absolutely.
There are people in countries where they have/are suffering under Athiest totalitarian regimes there are people who keep their faith in the face of certain descrimination. There are others in countries where islamists bomb churches and kidnap young girls to forceably convert them.
Such people value their faith in a way people who have only lived in a secular western democracy where freedom of religion and respect of property rights would never understand.
Talk to the people of Poland what their Catholicism means in the face of 3 centuries Russian/Orthodox, German/Lutheran and Communist/Athiest oppression.
Token
14 Mar 13 at 1:31 pm
Good news: Pope Francis hates phony ‘social justice.’
http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=50111
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 1:31 pm
He is a supporter of policies that see his level of government paying for legal abortions, even those in Victoria which are completely at the mother’s choice (no need to even nominally claim harm to the mother, as in other States.)
If he was a Democrat, you would say he should not receive communion and has made himself a heretic.
Because he’s “not Labor” here, you won’t say the same.
Hypocrite.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 1:32 pm
This thread is the most glaring example yet of why SfB needs to banned from this site.
It’s not because I disagree violently with almost every single thing that he says, it is because he takes over threads and diverts them to his 3 pet topics every single time.
FFS, his first attempt upthread was to try and link the new pope to climate change, then when that didn’t work, out came abortion and then AbbottAbbottAbbott.
Sinc, ban the fucker now please.
Anyway, back on topic: I really hope that this new guy can be half the man that John Paul II was, and I second the hopes already stated that he can go some way to loosening the shackles in South America.
Huckleberry Chunkwot
14 Mar 13 at 1:33 pm
Chuckleberry: CL was the first to bring up abortion, as a handwave about how this Pope and the previous one would hardly be “on side” with the economics views of the Right as they currently stand in the Tea Party and its Australian outlet, Catallaxy.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 1:36 pm
South America would do well to revolt against the “Social Justice” followers that have infested and riun most of the place for decades then wouldn’t it?
Following the prosperous freedom loving Chilean model would be a good way to go.
twostix
14 Mar 13 at 1:37 pm
Steve’s reaction to the joyous news of a successor to St Peter is malice, hatred, bitterness, lying, insults and aggression.
You really are a sick person.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 1:38 pm
It’s not a straight either/or.
As I said above, don’t make the mistake of believing South American capitalists are anything other than statist leeches. They’re not the good guys.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 1:40 pm
Quite a good summary of how threads here regarding anything to do with Labor, Islam, and economists with a Keynesian approach proceed, CL.
All I’ve done, on the other hand, is call you out for indefensible hypocrisy.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 1:44 pm
I guess it might be a sad time for the former pope now, and I reckon he’s fading physically pretty much too.
candy
14 Mar 13 at 1:44 pm
Yes but that’s when you know SFB is happy.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 1:47 pm
Since Catholicism ain’t your gig SoB, try to find some happiness here
Dan
14 Mar 13 at 1:49 pm
There sure does seem to be a lot of respect for this socially conservative socialist on a supposed libertarian blog.
Popes stance on freedom:
Social Freedom: Nope.
Economic Freedom: Nope.
And yet everyone is so excited about him.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 1:50 pm
Or merely a repugnant morally bankrupt pathetic slimeball?
There’s been a long debate about whether psychopaths are distinctly ill or whether there is actually no clear scientific evidence for an objective point of difference by which to distinguish ‘psychopaths’ from various dimensions of personality found throughout the population in varying combinations.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 1:51 pm
Steve now claims that I won’t criticise Tony Abbott.
… and that Abbott is pro-abortion.
Nobody believes anything you say, Steve.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 1:51 pm
Evidence please
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 1:52 pm
But none of those examples are in a modern Australian context. I may not have phrased my question well.
Other than on here, I haven’t noticed Australian society to make any distinction whatsoever between Catholic and Protestant. Yet here they seem to be viewed as quite distinct in their culture and politics.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 1:52 pm
I like that the new Pope is said to have cooked for himself back in Buenos Aires.
I also just a thought: if he wants to truly live up to his namesakes’ reputation, perhaps we’ll see the first nuding up of a Pope at St Peter’s during his installation ceremony. (Think of the television ratings..) Heh.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 1:54 pm
Most Social Justice true beleivers I’ve been in contact with are soft headed commies and when I hear any word prefixed to “Justice” I reach for my revolver. It seems to me that “social justice” being spouted inside the church is a result of the long march through the institutions or, worse, simply a pathetic sop to modern leftism “see we’re just like you we’re cool with our ‘Redistributive Justice’. Please like us”.
twostix
14 Mar 13 at 1:55 pm
I quite possibly may the first person in the universe to have had that thought.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 1:56 pm
There is a vast gulf between people who choose to help others of their own will and those who do so because of government edict.
There is a spectrum that transitions from gift to theft, with exchange in the middle. It is quite the opposite to live under grace than in is to live under socialism; capitalism is half way.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 1:57 pm
Apparently “merely a repugnant morally bankrupt pathetic slimeball”
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 1:57 pm
That shouldn’t surprise anyone given that social liberalism is responsible for the escalating size of the state, for welfare addiction and for Roxonian interventionism.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 1:59 pm
CL’s version of libertarianism – you can only be truly libertarian if you agree not to do anything libertarianism allows you to do.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 2:04 pm
No, CL. That’s “social justice”, of which your new pope is a big fan.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 2:05 pm
You are disturbingly peculiar, Steve.
Oh come on
14 Mar 13 at 2:08 pm
SOB – there is nothing new under the sun.
Lysander Spooner
14 Mar 13 at 2:08 pm
It may also a precondition for libertarianism. That is certainly not a new thought.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 2:09 pm
In the book of Samuel, YHWH told his people not to appoint a King for “he will tax your labour and all of your efforts” for generations to come…he warned them about rulers!!!
Is YHWH in the Tea Party?
Lysander Spooner
14 Mar 13 at 2:12 pm
Speaking of odd thoughts about Popes, I am reminded of this claim (as part of the “Pope Joan” legend) but which is still no doubt believed by some people:
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 2:13 pm
Gold!
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 2:17 pm
“You need to dial it down a notch Jimmy.”
If even the rambunctious Infidel Tiger is giving you this advice (the last in a long line of others doing the same), you might want to start paying attention.
Jarrah
14 Mar 13 at 2:20 pm
Yahweh was pretty conservative, but his son Jesus was a hippie and a communist.
He was the Abbie Hoffman of the 0000′s
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 2:23 pm
Rack off Jarrah, you boring twit.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 2:25 pm
How do you summarise Mohammed, Yobbo?
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 2:25 pm
Tribal Warlord and [that naughty word gets stuck in moderation. Sinc].
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 2:27 pm
Tribal Warlord and kiddy-fiddler.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 2:27 pm
I feel sorry for JamesK’s wife or boyfriend. Long suffering victim of his frustrations at being bested in every aspect of his life. Even on a blog James appears to be the one sick seagull that all the others peck.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 2:30 pm
“That shouldn’t surprise anyone given that social liberalism is responsible for the escalating size of the state, for welfare addiction and for Roxonian interventionism”
The RCC, bringing you small govt everywhere!
LOL, do you actually know anything about church social teaching?
Pedro
14 Mar 13 at 2:31 pm
Abudhabby is becoming as thoroughly dishonest as liar-steve® these days
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 2:33 pm
Acton Institute’s Rev. Robert A. Sirico Comments on the Election of Pope Francis
With the election of Pope Francis, the Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, Argentina, the Rev. Robert A. Sirico released the following statement.
“Pope Francis is a man of great spirituality who is known for his commitment to doctrinal orthodoxy as well as for his simplicity of life,” Rev. Sirico said. “Like Benedict XVI, he combines concern for the poor with an insistence that it’s not the Church’s responsibility to be a political actor or to prescribe precise solutions to economic problems. In that regard, he’s a model for all Catholic bishops and clergy throughout the world.”
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 2:34 pm
Tiny, little man.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 2:35 pm
Like yobbo I’m an atheist. Like Yobbo I see most Catholics as people who were brainwashed into mumbo-jumbo at an early age and who lack the moral and intellectual fortitude to reject it. On the other hand, I’m a moral absolutist like the pope. I believe in truth and justice and hold that they are as real as bricks and more real than electrons. So I hope the new pope has at least as much moral and intellectual fortitude as yobbo ad JamesK and the moral sense of CL and Dover Beach. And is very different from SfB who gives me the creeps.
DrBeauGan
14 Mar 13 at 2:36 pm
ACTON INSTITUTE: A Passion for Government Leads to Neglect of Our Neighbor
March 13, 2013
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 2:38 pm
Sez tge sad little f-0ck who immediately predceding wrote:
You’re a joke Abudhabbydoo
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 2:40 pm
I would like to make a list of the all the people on the Cat, Jimmy With A Fucking K has abused over the years.
I even saw him getting stuck into Jumpnmcar the other day.
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 2:40 pm
The ease with which people are “creeped out” here (sometimes) provides me with much amusement, Dr.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 2:41 pm
Yobbo, the One is referred to as YHWH, and not the full spelling of the name that, out of respect, cannot be spoken or spelled out. I am Catholic but even I understand this respect for the Hebrews.
Has no respect for difference, tradition and plurality been cultivated from your obviously “egalitarian” roots? Oh, I forgot, most of “that type” are “egotarian.”
Lysander Spooner
14 Mar 13 at 2:42 pm
There’s not a single post in this thread by JamesK that isn’t just outright abusing someone. I invite the reader to scroll up and check for themself.
You have to ask why he is still allowed to comment here. He never adds anything to the discussion, his only contribution is abuse and profanity.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 2:45 pm
Too close to the truth, eh JamesK.
Poor, self loathing JamesK. Can’t even be an alpha male on a fucking blog. Sad git.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 2:46 pm
It’s the little things eh Steve. You sit around with one finger up your arse, another finger up your nose, whiling away the hours while your wife works happy to know that the government keeps cutting you a cheque every fortnight.
Your living the dream motherfokker!
Dan
14 Mar 13 at 2:46 pm
I abuse only those that dish out personal abuse.
So stuff that up your unionised sandgroper jumper IT
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 2:46 pm
I am an atheist and have no respect for people who believe in sky fairies, whatever their flavour. I shall call him whatever I want.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 2:47 pm
Normally I’m a big fan of this genre, but it must be done in an original manner.
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 2:47 pm
Don’t be too hard on the little woman or little ladyboy when you get home from the Preston general practice tonight, Jimmy lad. And no kicking the dog or cat in your impotent beta male rage.
It’s only a blog and I’m sure there’s something you are good at.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 2:49 pm
P.S. New Pope referred to Gay Marriage as “machinations of satan”.
Lol.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 2:51 pm
It’s his incisive original intellect that makes the Abudhabby bunny so attractive.
Such as likening the pre-20Century Catholic Church to Stalin
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 2:51 pm
Well.
It didn’t take long for this thread to fall into a heap of shit…
Winston SMITH
14 Mar 13 at 2:54 pm
Slow day at the surgery, Jimbo?
All this time on your hands and you can’t even post anything witty. I can’t believe you are a GP. All of my doctor friends are smart and have great senses of humour. Why did you fix on a doctor for your onscreen persona?
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 2:56 pm
So you support socialist ‘businesses’ in South Anmerica that buy their way to wealth at the expense of others?
That’s the ‘market,’ is it?
No.
All of the gargantual growth in the state today is being driven by social liberalism/
The poster boy of social liberalism is Barack Obama.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 2:57 pm
Obviously it’s pick on Junior day.
While not entirely true, this resonates somewhat. Then again, that isn’t exactly rare. There is a tendency on the Cat to put anyone new (or on the standing list) through the wringer with personal attacks rather than discussing the matter at hand.
Not for the insecure, this place.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 2:58 pm
Good.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 2:59 pm
How should he refer to a man forcing his penis into another man’s anus?
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 2:59 pm
I’m curious, are all Libertarians atheists? And if so, does that mean only atheists can join the LDP? Or does Libertarianism not tolerate religion and people of any religion?
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 3:00 pm
Have to agree with Frank the First on that point.
The very concept is an abhoration; unfathomable to right-thinking males everywhere, excepting JamesK, the gay leprechaun doctor of Kilkenny.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 3:03 pm
Yes. We know. We all know.
And we’re never allowed to forget.
Everyone on this blog who believes in God is consequently been told by you on multiple occasions that we are stupid or insane or both.
What makes your vile arrogance so laughable apart from your thorough-going ignorance is your stupidity.
It would be a miracle if your IQ was ever measured at 110 or more.
I’d know the test was mal-administered.
You are unable ever to apply discipline or logic to what would be loosely described as an ‘argument’ in support of your bigotry
Your atheism is based on hatred.
It’s emotional.
Neither is it rational. Ever.
Rational arguments can be made in support of atheism or at least atheism on the agnostic scale of definitions but in your case, they have never been made.
Ever.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 3:03 pm
Some clowns on this blog used to think Abudhabbydoo was cool with an exciting international lifestyle on the public dime.
LOL
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 3:05 pm
That summarises the worst ever abuse scandal in Australian history: the protestant-run’s ADF’s 75 years of raping boys.
And all of them were free to marry, oddly.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 3:05 pm
Do you play Irish jig Muzak in your practice, wee Jimmie? It might explain your temper.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 3:15 pm
Yobbo-the-cretinous-emotional-atheist wrote at 1:50 pm
I immediately asked for evidence but no response has been forthcoming.
In fact he repeated the assertion again later as if it were fact.
No luck finding evidence, Yobbo?
Oh wait I forgot! Evidence and a logical argument are quite unnecessary to feed your vile bigotry.
Still you have your fellow nasty bigot Abudhabby to provide support now.
Facts and argument are quite unnecessary for that nasty twit either.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 3:15 pm
Can anyone name the world’s senior Lutheran?
I’ll have a go.
Is it John Bjelke-Petersen?
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 3:17 pm
LOL.
Laugh out loud.
Laugh. Out. Loud.
Hahahaha.
Lololololololololol
Lol
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 3:17 pm
Is it a full moon?
Eddystone
14 Mar 13 at 3:20 pm
Early morning here as I lead my cool international lifestyle. Is the moon out down there?
Laugh out loud. Right, James? Ell oh ell, hey matey?
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 3:23 pm
No, just another day in dealing with JamesK.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 3:24 pm
Not sure, but certainly one of the (unintentionally) funniest threads ever
Squawkbox
14 Mar 13 at 3:26 pm
Seventh photo down. Looks like Murdoch attended the Pope’s big day.
Start a rumor and we might be able to treble Leftie head explosions.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 3:28 pm
I’m just waiting for someone to start raving incoherently like Peter Patton did a while back, although he was under the influence of some exogenous chemicals.
Eddystone
14 Mar 13 at 3:30 pm
I’m curious, are all Libertarians atheists? And if so, does that mean only atheists can join the LDP? Or does Libertarianism not tolerate religion and people of any religion?
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 3:35 pm
JamesK may be on the surgery meds…
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 3:35 pm
Ladies please.
You’ve been told to get the bricks out of your hand bags before a skirmish
We won’t tolerate such behaviour on a gentlemans blog .
JC
14 Mar 13 at 3:36 pm
You already asked this question Gab. Nobody responded because it’s stupid. No need to keep reposting love.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 3:40 pm
Speaking of Obama, it will be remembered that – to a man – this site’s ‘libertarians’ backed the Illinois community organiser (several, rapturously), believing his social liberalism augured well for the limitation of statism in America.
Plus, he would keep that awful pro-gun, pro drug liberalisation, pro free speech, pro-Israel, pro-business, pro-oil, pro-surplus, anti-bailout wacko SARAH PALIN out of the White House.
So yeah, that worked out well.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 3:40 pm
I’ve never backed obama.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 3:42 pm
Maybe now we’ll be allowed to eat meat – as long as it is Argentinian beef – on Fridays in Lent.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 3:42 pm
Is there a single person on this site who backed Obama?
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 3:45 pm
Perfectly reasonable question, Yobbo given your vociferous condemnations and bigotry of anyone who has a religion.
I note you never answered the question, must be that ego of yours that got in the way, eh?
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 3:45 pm
You two are both sad pathetic unintelligent dicks.
You abuse people who believe in God for nothing more than their beliefs.
Although no theist on this blog – as far as I’m aware – have abused either of you two for your radical atheism.
In fact when the facts of your nasty bigotry are pointed out to you – in kind – I become the supposed demented one and you the supposed victims.
That technique is beloved of the Left by the by.
What you never do is engage in an argument to justify your blatant bigotry.
In fact you don’t believe that your bigots at all and your gratuitously insults any one who believes in God is completely justified.
The fact is that you both have the zealot’s fervent belief in the absence of something you don’t believe in (often called God) and the associated need to force that belief down everyone else’s throats coupled with the emotional need to condescendingly belittle people who don’t share your beliefs
You are both profoundly ignorant men.
And that’s got nothing to do with the presence or absence of a belief in God.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 3:46 pm
From the LA Times article about him:
I don’t think he’s going to such a friend to the Tea Party Catholics.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 3:47 pm
“I am an atheist and have no respect for people who believe in sky fairies, whatever their flavour. I shall call him whatever I want.”
Yobbo (fitting name), you display a typical manifestation of intolerant Atheism and the ‘fruits’ therein. It is funny that at a Catholic University we were always told to respect other’s beliefs as a direct result of Lumen Gentium (Vatican II doc).
Lysander Spooner
14 Mar 13 at 3:48 pm
Anyway, good luck to Pope Francis.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 3:48 pm
I didn’t answer because I don’t speak for all libertarians Gab. That’s why your question is stupid.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 3:48 pm
Certainly, for his second election especially.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 3:49 pm
Tell it to Fisky, although he may have to recuse himself as you’re both co-religionists.
dover_beach
14 Mar 13 at 3:50 pm
Steve – do you have PhD in ignorance like Yobbo? Rome press reported on Aussie’s ignorance in the link below…particularly in regard to meat on Fridays
http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/how-not-to-report-a-papal-conclave?utm_campaign=dailyhtml&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dispatch
The stupidity is stupifying.
Lysander Spooner
14 Mar 13 at 3:50 pm
I don’t think you understand what “tolerate” means.
Tolerate:
Verb
I tolerate religion. That doesn’t mean I have to like or respect it.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 3:50 pm
No.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 3:50 pm
My apologies, pet. I thought you were a member of the LDP thus could provide us with some insight given you said you have no respect for anyone who believes in God.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 3:50 pm
You didn’t answer because you can’t answer Yobbo.
You are both both profoundly ignorant and stupid.
You didn’t answer my query for evidence in support of your assertions about the new pope either.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 3:52 pm
Actually no, you quite clearly don’t.
You are the epitome of intolerance Yobbo
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 3:54 pm
Right. That’s what I said. I cannot answer Gab’s question because I do not speak for all libertarians.
AFAIK I am still a member of the LDP but I have not been associated with them in an official capacity for nearly 6 years, since I no longer live in Australia.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 3:54 pm
Another person who can;t understand the definition of tolerance, even when it’s cut and pasted for him.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 3:55 pm
I find Christianity and Libertarianism an easy fit. Both are based on the premise of choice rather than law.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 3:58 pm
I said earlier an IQ of 110 or less is plausible.
But perhaps more likely 100 or less.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 3:58 pm
Neither here nor there, at any rate. You have no respect for people who believe in God, thus if there are any of these “sky-fairy worshipers”, as you call them, in the LDp and among Libertarians in general of your acquaintance, then you have stated you have no respect for them or their opinions on any issues.
Just so we’re clear.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 3:58 pm
Of course you don’t.
But that’s not the reason.
Besides, you give libertarianism a bad name anyway.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 4:00 pm
Tell that to the Cathars.
Or, to the Pope vis a vis abortion laws.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 4:03 pm
Steve, that hardly means there isn’t right and wrong. Just that right and wrong are different from legal and illegal.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 4:05 pm
That is correct. Glad to see you finally understand.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 4:06 pm
Yobbo – the tolerance I am talking about that a Catholic university taught me was: (A) You don’t have to agree with a person’s viewpoint but (B) You don’t get stuck into them about “skyfairies” (Existent or not).
Do I get stuck into you because you are a poo pusher? Even though our morals diverge here, I don’t get stuck into you about it – if you want to do that action, it is your business – I don’t visit your back alley websites and say “you’re all going to hell.”
Lysander Spooner
14 Mar 13 at 4:10 pm
Yes, i do understand your bigotry, Yobbo and you wear it proud. Good for you, pet. You’re a real poster boy for the LDP and Libertarians everywhere.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 4:11 pm
Funny how people can’t stop talking about anal sex on a thread about a new Pope…
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 4:16 pm
SFB, the one thing i appreciate about the Cat, is you can basically speak about whatever you want. I would normally totally disagree with everything you stand for and have to say as i’ve “been there” and “done that” in my stupid youth, but on your last gag…nice.
Lysander Spooner
14 Mar 13 at 4:19 pm
“Speaking of Obama, it will be remembered that – to a man – this site’s ‘libertarians’ backed the Illinois community organiser (several, rapturously), believing his social liberalism augured well for the limitation of statism in America.”
Back on the truth serum I see.
Lysander, can you see a difference between these statements:
1 I hate you because you do/don’t believe in god.
2 I think your belief/unbelief in god is stupid.
Pedro
14 Mar 13 at 4:24 pm
“I find Christianity and Libertarianism an easy fit. Both are based on the premise of choice rather than law.”
But I think you’ll find that Horehay isn’t on board that boat, unless he’s secretly planning on rewriting a whole bunch of encyclicals and overturning pretty much all of the church’s teaching on economic and social issues.
Pedro
14 Mar 13 at 4:26 pm
No Leigh, I think the Pope is more morally upstanding than Arthur Sinodinos.
m0nty
14 Mar 13 at 4:32 pm
Yobbo at 4:06 pm:
The question is whether you see the difference Pedro.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 4:33 pm
And, being the pervert you are, you get excited whenever it’s mentioned.
Tom
14 Mar 13 at 4:35 pm
No, Tom. I limited myself to suggesting the Pope could walk nude down the aisle of St Peters, in quasi imitation of St Francis of Assisi. No need to test for testicles that way, too.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 4:38 pm
Chill, pet. I’ve got a job in the real world, so I can’t spend every waking moment on the Cat or indeed googling Tony Abbott (except for evidence of his very real crimes against humanity like eating other people’s ear wax in the House of Reps.)
But thank you for the information. Abbott is completely off the Catholic mark here, and has placed himself in direct opposition to the Church’s teachings. I suspect, though, that he’s actually got no idea of the theology behind it, and is ill-informed.
But I’d still vote Liberal, because I don’t live in his electorate, and he’s the best they’ve got at the moment.
Also I am leading a one-woman campaign to turn the safe Labor seat of Fremantle into a marginal Liberal one, so as to reap prodigious quantities of taxpayer-funded largesse in the form of solid gold toilet seats and a gigantic fur coat, and possibly a sparkly bracelet to go with it.
Philippa Martyr
14 Mar 13 at 4:43 pm
?
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 4:49 pm
No jimbo, I’m trying to refine the point. I don’t disrespect people in toto just because they believe in god. I prefer to wait until you’ve given additional evidence that you’re a dope. But if you are the skyfairy type then you can’t whinge about being picked on if you’ve ever bagged an astrologist or any other version of the skyfairy worshiper.
I wasn’t sure whether lysander was saying you’ve got to respect people’s beliefs, which is wrong, or just that you don’t disrespect people merely because they have a silly belief. Your belief in god is no reason for me to not say it’s silly.
“And, being the pervert you are, you get excited whenever it’s mentioned.”
How many people have to have anal sex before it stops being perverted? Given that it seems pretty common, and you can even see evolutionary reasons people might like it, I’m not quite sure what the fuss is.
Pedro
14 Mar 13 at 4:51 pm
Spanish pronunciation of Frank’s name.
Pedro
14 Mar 13 at 4:51 pm
How do they change the colour of the smoke?
These measures were introduced after complaints about ambiguity.
Cold-Hands
14 Mar 13 at 4:52 pm
Philippa: I don’t mind people like you and nilk saying “well, he doesn’t follow Catholic teaching on this, but at least he’s arguably closer to my views that a completely pro-choice Laborite.”
What I do have a problem with is CL attacking Democrats Catholics about once a week for their abortion law views, but coming up with weak excuses as to why Abbott doesn’t deserve the same contempt from him for the same reason.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 4:58 pm
Luckily for many on here, the Catallaxy servers crashed deleting a shameful period in Australian libertarian history. As I recall we were told he was going to be black libertarian Jesus.
JC and Jason Soon were most assuredly supporters.
JC thinks his Gucci loafers and pleated Dolce & Gabban jeans are his most embarrassing mistake. He is wrong.
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 5:03 pm
But I’m not Lysander. I’m also not black, but I think they deserve equal rights too.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 5:07 pm
Bravo.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 5:08 pm
Good but you shouldn’t disrespect them in toto or in part for believing in God.
I don’t disrespect people because the are atheists.
I do respect respect.
And absence of respect is quite different from obvious disrespect.
Yobbo is ignorant, stupid and bigoted and is regularly deserving of opprobrium
Stupidity, intolerance and ignorance are neither necessary for theism or atheism although some may consider they help one or the other or both.
Highly intelligent, reflective and well informed people can be either theists and atheists.
And such people knows this.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 5:11 pm
So, Yobbo is a pusher for poo pusher’s rights.
Is that right, or have I put my foot in the poo?
Huckleberry Chunkwot
14 Mar 13 at 5:14 pm
God knows when you tell fibs, you slimy little lying weasel.
LOL
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 5:15 pm
Huckleberry, must we again mine this unproductive seam?
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 5:17 pm
Check your family tree. Black ain’t a colour no more, bro.
Infidel Tiger
14 Mar 13 at 5:17 pm
Which of them is a lie, Abudhabbydoodoo?
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 5:23 pm
Internet TV shows Pope Francis I on the balcony, to me a Pope Pius XII lookalike. How long before the smears start? All recent Popes have faced such smears. But not the heroes of those doing the smearing. Moscow will start again soon and their supporters here in Australia will follow the party line.
stackja
14 Mar 13 at 5:24 pm
You are without respect.
Related to the issue of respect, you are without dignity. You denied being a Christian in a thread here but you are without question a keen member and advocate of the catholic church. To deny your own religion as a means of avoiding answering a difficult question is beneath contempt.
You are lower than the perineum of a hundred year old dwarf.
Regards & etc
Abudhabbydoyadoyadoyawannadance
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 5:27 pm
Abu, I have no time for this. I must go outside and attend to some uphill gardening.
Huckleberry Chunkwot
14 Mar 13 at 5:29 pm
For you Abudhabbydoodoo not just without reesopect but lotsa disrespect.
You juvenile ignorant oaf.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 5:30 pm
They’ve already started. The left is frantic to find him guilty of something. So far, all they can come up with is that the Argie Catholic hierarchy didn’t utter daily denunciations of the generals in the police state that terrorised the country 40 years ago.
Tom
14 Mar 13 at 5:30 pm
James, run along and look up ‘perineum’, you little fraud.
Fuck off now, there’s a good chap.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 5:33 pm
Huckleberry, I’m too busy to insert myself into a double entendre or pun fest. I’m buried in work right now and don’t want to fudge any of the paperwork
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 5:36 pm
Poor Abudhabbydoodoo!
Take a RDO tomorrow petal
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 5:41 pm
‘Catholic’ Steve is still making the year’s – if not the decade’s – most hilarious argument…
Tony Abbott: notorious for supporting abortion – just like Nancy Pelosi!!
Ahahahahahahahaha.
Steve: check your in-box for Emily’s List daily briefings.
By the way – congratulations for finally admitting that you support abortion. Of course, this makes you an excommunicate in the eyes of Pope Francis – who believes that all public defending and promoting of abortion is a mortal sin.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 5:44 pm
That’s OK Abu, I have tried several rejoinders, but they are way too crass to publish here. Besides, no doubt SfB is getting himself into a lather right about now, so it probably is time to stop.
Huckleberry Chunkwot
14 Mar 13 at 5:46 pm
Not to mention the gay leprechaun doctor of olde Kilkenny, huckleberry!
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 5:52 pm
I have no dog in that fight Abu, so I will steer well clear.
Huckleberry Chunkwot
14 Mar 13 at 5:56 pm
But Steve – CL is right – you are hardly Catholic! Maybe in name but not nature.
Lysander Spooner
14 Mar 13 at 5:59 pm
“Good but you shouldn’t disrespect them in toto or in part for believing in God”
Like I said, it takes your level of consistent dillness to get my disrespect. CL level lying will do it too. Soon and jc were on board for Obama, but I’m pretty sure that was about it, which is hardly descriptive of every libertarian around here.
Pedro
14 Mar 13 at 6:12 pm
Pedro you fuckwit I never said you showed disrespect.
Moreover I couldn’t give a fuck who was on board for Obummer here but I doubt JC was one.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 6:15 pm
A nice succinct Editorial from the WSJ:
A Pope From the People
The cardinals choose an Argentine pastor from a missionary tradition.
RTWT
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 6:17 pm
Habemus Papam. Thank you for your headline. Previous new Popes have always been announced thus in the world’s media. Not so from 2013 onwards it seems. The average msm employee wouldn’t know what Latin was, leave alone have any knowledge of the dreaded and hated Catholic church’s traditions. Most of them would think Latin was a type of semi-gloss paint.
davey street
14 Mar 13 at 6:29 pm
Did you need help with it?
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 6:36 pm
What a fascinating decision his name is, and has not the new Pope’s election been making lefty heads explode?
The Guardian is having conniptions as they realise that Pope Francis is a defacto (if not de jure) enemy of the left, and that this is a popular stance in the Church.
After all, the left are being ignored by the Church, and have no power within it. The ‘radical priest’ elements are gone or going, lefties have cleaned the cChurch of their depraved presence by leaving it for the happy-clappies, islamists or the ‘church’ of marx.
So the Church is booming in Africa, Asia and to a lesser extent South America while the left make themselves irrelevent and Europe falls into the historically inevitable collapse socialism always brings.
Interesting times.
Mk50 of Brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 6:41 pm
Yep, possibly the most shameful period of my life. I went into a 2 year depression over that mistake and have the scars to show only shock treatment snapped me out of it.
IT
I don’t mind you lying about the loafers and pleated pants, but I do hate you bringing this up.
Cease and desist.
I fucked up and read him as a centrist. Never in my wildest dreams did I think the Kenyan would be this leftwing retarded. Never.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 6:42 pm
And lets go back to 08. FFS McCain? God Almighty.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 6:43 pm
Yobbo
Why aren’t you on site and playing poker these days? What happened?
JC
14 Mar 13 at 6:43 pm
“The Guardian is having conniptions as they realise that Pope Francis is a defacto (if not de jure) enemy of the left, and that this is a popular stance in the Church.”
What the hell did they expect? I saw endless exhortations in various online forums for the the next pope to be a progressive, a reformer, even a woman. That this would require essentially a complete inversion of values in what is possibly the most conservative institution on the planet never seemed to occur to them.
Jarrah
14 Mar 13 at 6:50 pm
JamesK: when you said “I abuse only those that dish out personal abuse. ” did you mean “that dish out personal abuse to me“?
Oh come on
14 Mar 13 at 6:50 pm
– the same with Comrade Julia JC?
Samuel J
14 Mar 13 at 6:53 pm
“and the inherent dignity of every human being”
A paean to equality, from a group that insists its particular version of inequality is morality.
Jarrah
14 Mar 13 at 6:55 pm
Nah Samuel,Joe hated Gillard from the get go.he even offered to pay the legal fees of the hotel owners she threatened
Tal
14 Mar 13 at 6:59 pm
I am not an Obama supporter and wasn’t in 08. But, in retrospect, it’s probably a good thing McCain didn’t get up in 08.
Oh come on
14 Mar 13 at 7:00 pm
No Oco.
Just personal abuse full stop.
Deriding people who believe in God is personal abuse to each and every one of us who do believe and indeed to some like Gerard Henderson who don’t.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 7:08 pm
That’s a bit of a statement that’s sorta meaningless if not stupid.
Perhaps explaining why might make it meaningful.
Would McCain have increased government debt by $6 trillion and not dealt with unfunded liabilities in excess of $100 trillion relating to public service pensions, Social Security and Medicare?
I doubt it.
So ipso facto even McCain would have been a superior President than Obummer
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 7:13 pm
Not so sure.
We “lost” Sarah Palin, someone who seemed to have all the right libertarian, commonsense principles.
(Even if she does believe in the “sky fairy”)
Eddystone
14 Mar 13 at 7:13 pm
Actually, the whole “sky fairy” jibe is pretty juvenile.
Why do it?
Eddystone
14 Mar 13 at 7:15 pm
It’s interesting, JamesK, because I distinctly remember how you and I “fell out”, so to speak. I disagreed with you over something (it wasn’t religion – this was before the Great Cat God Wars). Civilly. Deliberately so, because I’m not a great fan of circular firing squads.
You flew into a rage and screeched abuse at me.
My own experience doesn’t really tally with your claim. I suspect that many others here could tell the same story. I’m not saying you’re lying, but you’re at the very least mistaken.
Oh come on
14 Mar 13 at 7:15 pm
It’s the only equality there is. The general concept that we are equal is blatant idiocy.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 7:16 pm
Absolutely.
Driftforge
14 Mar 13 at 7:18 pm
Oh yes that must have been it.
You twit.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 7:18 pm
No, the logic would be too subtle for you, JamesK.
I wasn’t aware that she’d bowed out of politics?
Oh come on
14 Mar 13 at 7:19 pm
The logic too subtle for you, Oco?
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 7:21 pm
The answer is in the question.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 7:24 pm
Does not play well with others.
Please keep away from sharp objects and hot liquids. Known to bite and has a micturition problem.
Please up little matey’s meds.
Dr.Abudhabbydoodoo
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 7:24 pm
I love how both sides of the god debate have hurled buckets of abuse (including me) but today one side is being sniffy and pretending to be adults.
Great sport, what!
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 7:27 pm
Pope Benedict XV warned against world government on July 25, 1920:
That 20′s pope chappy was prescient
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 7:31 pm
I thought she had. What is she doing now?
Let me guess. Not the atheists?
Eddystone
14 Mar 13 at 7:32 pm
JamesK: you don’t even realise you’re doing it, do you? The screeching simian faeces-flinging act, that is. Crikey. I highly doubt you’re a doctor but you sure need one.
Oh come on
14 Mar 13 at 7:34 pm
I actually think that JamesK believes he conducts himself here in an even-handed, calm and fair manner.
Oh come on
14 Mar 13 at 7:36 pm
You’re a moron Oco.
You asked me a question.
I answered politely.
You then followed up with meaningless slime – a tissue of fantasy wherein you are the calm rational one with an excellent memory.
You are not reasonable.
You’re a tosser with lotsa self-love
You were back then and you are now.
Grow up.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 7:43 pm
Is JamesK real or some moby algorithm that recycles a range of abuse?
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 7:48 pm
Ummm I was little dubious about her from the start as a result of the Fair Work crap she crested.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 7:52 pm
LOL I gave up eating meat on every friday last year.
nilk
14 Mar 13 at 7:57 pm
Argentinian beef is very good. Still, I’m looking forward to fish tomorrow.
dover_beach
14 Mar 13 at 8:06 pm
Fish, OMG, it’s lent. No wonder the easter eggs are everywhere at woolies.
Dear god, see how much I love you. Look, I’m having fish. World sacrifice champ, that’s me.
Pedro
14 Mar 13 at 9:29 pm
In honour of Satan, I try to abstain from non-alcoholic drinks on Fridays. Beer for every meal.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 9:41 pm
It’s not a sacrifice, Pedro.
dover_beach
14 Mar 13 at 9:41 pm
315 comments on the new pope.
Roxonian atheists abound, terrified somebody is having a joyous time.
You’ve got to LOL.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 9:47 pm
Now that nearly all fresh fish of any quality is horrendously expensive, the proper penance would be not to eat fish during Lent.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 9:55 pm
LOL @ at you with your eyes rolling and one hand on your cheek.
I mean you just have to LOL, because it’s so funny.
LOL
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 10:14 pm
Exactly.
Every time the Catholic Church is mentioned, the thread is swamped by terrified atheists and lapsed protestants with sketchy loyalties to Ian Paisley.
LOL.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 10:18 pm
Where have you been for the last forty years Shit for Brains?
That rule was ditched in the 1970′s.
Catholics are encouraged to forego something of their own choice.
It isn’t as rigid and stilted as, say, Earth Hour.
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 10:23 pm
[I'm sure you're quite correct. But please none of that. Sinc]
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 10:27 pm
Actually, I had momentarily forgot the present rule in Australia, LL, when trying to make a small joke in a hurry: just Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. (I usually forget about it on Ash Wednesday, but not Good Friday.)
So recast my comment to those two days only, and it’ll be right. (And besides which, it seems the no meat on all Fridays of Lent still applies in the US.)
So you’re another Catholic here, hey?
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 10:39 pm
LOL indeed!
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 10:42 pm
No.
Just a keen interest in religious customs.
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 10:46 pm
That’s okay, Leigh. Neither is SFB.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 10:49 pm
Steve just Googled meat on Fridays. Another one got through to the bounday for four – like Sunday afternoon confession.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 10:50 pm
If the new Pope promotes suicide martyrdom, beheadings, misogynist treatment of females, then I will be worried.
Christianity isn’t perfect, but some of the alternatives are are damn sight worse. BTW, if anyone mentions moral equivalence or some version of leftist fence sitting dodge a bullet coz we’re pansies , you’re pithed
Steve of Glasshouse
14 Mar 13 at 10:50 pm
National Review Editorial: A Francis for Our Time
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 10:52 pm
OK Sinc.
Let’s go with a list of names and let people guess the point I was trying to make.
Milton Orkopolous, Bill D’Arcy, Keith Wright, and Bob Collins never made it to court unfortunately.
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 10:57 pm
Abu, despite the fact that you can’t stand me, think I’m gay, and disagree with an extremely high percentage of my views, I harbour the faint hope that you might agree that moderate Catholics such as me and Numbers, who acknowledge serious issues within the Church and wish for some significant reforms to address them, are at least the more realistic and sensible ones than triumphalist Catholics like CL (well, he’s one of a kind, actually, who has built a bit of a fantasy around Catholics being soon to crush all opposition before them), or traditionalists who are determined to see the Church cut down to a fraction of its present size, as long as those still participating are just like Catholics of the 1950′s.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 10:58 pm
It may comfort some to know that, in some countries, meat is still verboten for Catholics in Lent.
But dolphin and whale meat is OK.
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 11:00 pm
In case you were wondering, SfB, I am a lapsed Buddhist.
Very, very lapsed.
Leigh Lowe
14 Mar 13 at 11:02 pm
LOL.
You mean Catholics who aren’t Catholics at all.
In fact the Catholic Church is growing hugely around the world. It is failing in exactly those places where left-wing phony Catholics have held sway for 50 years.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:03 pm
Is it too much to ask that some Pope, someday within my lifetime, will both reconsider the parts of Humanae Vitae relating to contraception AND live longer than 33 days following his election? Okay, I expect them to hold the line on termination and same-sex marriage for the foreseeable future, but on this they need to bend. And soon.
perturbed
14 Mar 13 at 11:05 pm
Please, stop begging for approval. It’s unseemly.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 11:06 pm
Well, of course. The Catholic Church has no doctrine whatsoever on political programs, size of states, deficit spending, size of a public service, optimal welfare; indeed, it specifically condemns the notion that statism replaces individual and private charitable endeavours.
You won’t be excommunicated for advocating a balanced budget.
All who promote and defend abortion, however, reject a dogma of the Church and excommunicate themselves from its sacramental life.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:07 pm
liar-steve® claims to be a Catholic whilst disagreeing with any number of Church doctrines.
I suspect liar is not only not a Catholic but he’s not a Christian either else he would have claimed Anglicanism or some other facsimile of Christianity
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 11:08 pm
What abject grovelling.
dover_beach
14 Mar 13 at 11:10 pm
I hope Francis takes on such political and public figures.
Nancy Pelosi some of the low-life Kennedy clan come to mind.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 11:11 pm
Forgive me, but having an Argentinian talk about soschial justice causes my antennas to rise up a notch knowing just how statist that rathole is.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 11:12 pm
Snap. Darn you, Gab.
dover_beach
14 Mar 13 at 11:12 pm
Relax JC.
Kirschener loathes him.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 11:13 pm
Yea, but Botox gal hates him because he’s against gay marriage and abortion.
Man, she had some really bad cosmetic surgery. That doc ought to be facing serious jail time.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 11:17 pm
That groveling alone ought to get him a lifetime ban.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 11:19 pm
Heh.
I am simply seeing if Abu would be prepared to grudgingly, with great reluctance, say that some Catholics (me, numbers) are more sensible about religion than other Catholics (CL, nilk etc). (He shouldn’t tar all with the same brush.)
I expect his normal hatred and dislike of everything else I ever say and stand for to then continue.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 11:25 pm
Why?
Paul VI has been proved right.
The entire Western world is now failing to reproduce itself, leading to almost unsolvable financial crises of the Greek variety.
The contraceptive mentality has been an absolute catastrophe.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:27 pm
You’re not more sensible, just a wishy-washy pretend Catholic who hunts with the hounds and runs with the foxes. You are basically unprincipled. If you do not agree with doctrine and what a more liberal type of religion to suit your wants, go join another religion.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 11:30 pm
You lost me with the ‘Heh’.
dover_beach
14 Mar 13 at 11:31 pm
“All who promote and defend abortion, however, reject a dogma of the Church and excommunicate themselves from its sacramental life.”
http://www.tonyabbott.com.au/LatestNews/ArticleswrittenbyTony/tabid/87/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/3653/RATE-OF-ABORTION-HIGHLIGHTS-OUR-MORAL-FAILINGS.aspx
Look at that – Abbott agrees with me.
Jarrah
14 Mar 13 at 11:32 pm
So, to summarise up SFB’s contributions today:
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 11:32 pm
Washington Times: Pope Francis is first Catholic pontiff from the Americas; he is known as a humble intellectual
As Argentine cardinal, he clashed with President Cristina Fernandez over her liberal policies
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 11:33 pm
I agree with Prime Minister Abbott, too.
Fisky
14 Mar 13 at 11:34 pm
Fuck knuckle.. This is how I see things. The catholic church has a number of points relating to core beliefs. You either believe or agree with them or you don’t. If you or try to equivocate you can of course continue to call yourself a catholic, as there’s no one to stop you, but you really aren’t part of the team.
I don’t understand why it’s so hard to get it into your thick skull.
Perhaps Spuds believes or agrees with those core beliefs, as I don’t know seeing I rarely read much if his incoherent babbling.
However you don’t.
That’s why CL is so harsh on you and deservedly so too I might add.
Now, I’m not putting this forward because I’m Catholic, as I’m not in any real sense since I haven’t set foot in a church of decades. I’m just making an observation that you’re either bullshitting to people here or totally delusional. I think you’re bullshitting as you have been caught lying here from the very start when you tried to peddle the bullshit you were a conservative and a Catholic. You liar, Stepford.
I’ve never forgiven you for that. You know that right?
JC
14 Mar 13 at 11:37 pm
You’re not a catholic, steve, so give it a rest.
Abu Chowdah
14 Mar 13 at 11:37 pm
No. No, he doesn’t.
He’s a politician endeavouring to change the culture here where over 100,000 abortions are carried out each year and society collectively yawns.
Jarrah doesn’t even yawn but worse belittles anyone who posits that this is a sign of a sick society
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 11:40 pm
Gab you’re a bore, as well as being the blog’s biggest suck up, and the only person I know who was silly enough to put mercury in a fishtank as a teenager. Funnily enough, you now believe in climate change denialist scare campaigns about how dangerous compact fluorescent lights are if they break because of the tiny amount of mercury they contain.
You may now stop addressing me.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 11:40 pm
Ha! Abu thinks CL’s a nut on religion, except when it comes to CL’s assessment of another Catholic.
steve from brisbane
14 Mar 13 at 11:41 pm
No, no need to offer me your crown. You have proven to be the best at “sucking-up” and groveling. Why, only in the last ten minutes of so too.
LOL. As yobbo would say, “go fuck yourself”.
Gab
14 Mar 13 at 11:43 pm
Just to repeat:
It’s a Steve-esque Grand Canyon leap of mendacity to claim that Tony Abbott – in that article or in any other forum – defends or promotes abortion.
Especially considering that the Australian left and the entire commentariat regard Abbott as notoriously opposed to abortion.
So yeah: fail.
C.L.
14 Mar 13 at 11:44 pm
Abu seems to agree with what I said. Stepford, you’re not a catholic because you don’t scribe to those core beliefs.
You’re better off joining Earth First as you agree with theirs.
JC
14 Mar 13 at 11:44 pm
Well at least the Greeks enjoy their non-reproductive activities.
Steve of Ferny Hills
14 Mar 13 at 11:44 pm
There is something wrong going on when someone who is a Catholic claims not to be (JamesK) and when someone who isn’t a Catholic claims to be (SteveFB). Weird.
Fisky
14 Mar 13 at 11:47 pm
Defending abortion is exactly what he’s doing there.
Whether or not he actually believes what he’s saying is another question, but as potential PM he has to defend the right to legal abortion or he will not be elected.
Yobbo
14 Mar 13 at 11:54 pm
Correct.
His political position is that of Bill Clinton’s viz abortion should be safe, legal and rare.
He couldn’t even attempt to remove public funding of it in this country.
JamesK
14 Mar 13 at 11:59 pm
Tony Abbott writing in 2004:
can be answered: yes, Tony, you’ve shown us personally how hard it is to get 19 year old university students to use a franger with their girlfriend who’s not on the pill.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 12:00 am
“I agree with Prime Minister Abbott, too.”
We should form a club.
“No. No, he doesn’t.”
Yes. Yes, he does.
“He’s a politician endeavouring to change the culture here where over 100,000 abortions are carried out each year and society collectively yawns.”
So you’re saying he’s disguising his real feelings about the matter for political gain? Well, maybe. Politics is the art of the possible, after all.
“It’s a Steve-esque Grand Canyon leap of mendacity to claim that Tony Abbott – in that article or in any other forum – defends or promotes abortion.”
Oh dear. Where’s the aardvark reference for Saint Tony, CL?
Jarrah
15 Mar 13 at 12:02 am
Sometimes I wish you didn’t chime in, Steve.
Jarrah
15 Mar 13 at 12:03 am
Because a minority of people called for you to be allowed back here liar, the majority are made to feel soiled again.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 12:04 am
Whatever, Jarrah. I do try, but I can’t please everyone every time.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 12:11 am
No he’s writing as leader of a political party.
He’s writing to show empathy with women who find themselves young and alone and pregnant.
He’s writing to win the support of women who have aborted and feel bad about it.
And in an environment that will see anything he says demagogued.
You can be sure even that essay will see him slimed in the for the next few days by the mob left – they are your kind.
Politcis is the art of the possible.
And as i said he doesn’t agree with you on any fair reading of what he wrote anyways.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 12:12 am
“No [etc]”
You used ‘no’ when you meant ‘yes’.
“And as i said he doesn’t agree with you on any fair reading of what he wrote anyways.”
Anyways? Right. Moving on, his exact words are unmistakable and unspinnable:
Unless you think he’s lying?
Jarrah
15 Mar 13 at 12:22 am
You’ve misspelled your blog URL, Steve.
Jarrah
15 Mar 13 at 12:23 am
Oh, ta.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 12:29 am
The Catholic Catechism quotes this with approval in the section on abortion:
Clearly, Tony Abbott does not agree, especially when he says:
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 12:34 am
Don’t demonstrate fuckwittery yet again Jarrah.
You don’t agree with Abbott and he doesn’t agree with you on abortion.
I’m happy to leave what I wrote stand.
Engaging you in debate is a fate of misery and the sophistry of inane minutiae.
So this is my final response to your twittery.
Does the choice of abortion equal morally a woman who holds a gun to her ten-year-old child’s head and pulls the trigger?
Of course not.
But both are murder – the willful killing of human life.
Abbott chose his words well for reasons as I outlined in my prior post.
Now f-ck off Jarrah you inanity.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 12:48 am
So Abbott supports murder? That’s news to me.
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 12:49 am
Seriously Fisky?
You are showing signs of a progressive fuckwittery.
Soon you’ll be at Jarrah/liar-steve® levels of puerile inanity.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 12:53 am
JamesK will now explain that Abbott doesn’t support murder; he just prefers that murders be funded by the government to take place in hospitals rather than in backyard “clinics”.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 1:02 am
“I am simply seeing if Abu would be prepared to grudgingly, with great reluctance, say that some Catholics (me, numbers) are more sensible about religion than other Catholics (CL, nilk etc). (He shouldn’t tar all with the same brush.)”
Steve, it would be a relief if you or numbers are capable of being sensible about anything. I fear you may be deluding yourself though.
Monkey's Uncle
15 Mar 13 at 1:11 am
James, here is what you said:
According to you, Abbott advocates legalized murder.
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 1:18 am
Ha! The biggest catholic hypocrite of them all has the gall to call Abbott a hypocrite. Beyond the pale, SFB.
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 1:19 am
No, you don’t know anything about how Abbott’s mind works. That is because you are a fringe crank.
Abbott has made a moral case for not considering first trimester abortions as murder, as quoted above. But according to you, Abbott is pro-murder.
You really are a strange guy, JamesK.
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 1:22 am
LOL. This is like a virus caught from Steve.
Tony Abbott,
Captain Catholic: FAMOUS PROMOTER OF ABORTION!Jarrah supports the notion – which tells you all you need to know about its veracity.
——————————-
But let us assume Abbott is a limpwristed, self-aggrandising fraterniser with evil; this doesn’t alter the fact that he is NOT a notorious supporter, promoter and defender of abortion and isn’t regarded as such anywhere, by anyone.
Fail.
A Nancy Pelosi on the other hand, promotes, defends, supports, funds and profits by abortion. She is, ipso facto, an excommunicate who cannot receive communion.
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 1:24 am
You’re an illiterate monkey Fisky.
Seriously stupid.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 1:33 am
I mean extraordinarily unintelligent, ignorant, dense, foolish, dull-witted, slow, simpleminded, vacuous, vapid, idiotic, imbecilic, obtuse, doltish, thick, dim, dimwitted, dumb, dopey, dozy, moronic, cretinous, pea-brained, halfwitted, soft in the head, brain-dead, boneheaded, thickheaded, wooden-headed, muttonheaded chuckleheaded and dunderheaded.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 1:37 am
Let’s go over this again. Abbott believes first trimester abortion should be legal. You think it’s murder. Therefore, you believe Abbott supports legalized murder. The end.
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 1:38 am
James, I hope you aren’t plagiarising thesaurus.com – we are very good at catching plagiarists around here!
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 1:40 am
You are the complete fuckwit.
And illiterate.
Oh wait, I’m repeating myself.
Abbott first says:
Later he writes:
Now you contemptible cretin show us where Abbott “believes first trimester abortion should be legal”
It already is legal as is late term abortion.
It’s now an epidemic of evil and Abbott wants to moderate it.
It’s impossible to underestimate your cretinous inanity.
Abortion is the killing of human life and so is murder.
Abbott said the are not “morally identical”.
You absolute morally deficient arsewipe.
And not because you want abortion but because you belittle the moral question entirely
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 1:57 am
Oh. Thanks for the whole quote.
Destroying unborn babies, hey?
So he’s a real defender and promoter of abortion, OBVIOUSLY.
Um, no.
The End.
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 2:04 am
God approves!
Angel sighted in the sky!
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 2:07 am
He has always believed it should be legal – when he was Health Minister for instance.
Sorry, I thought late term abortion was heavily restricted in most jurisdictions.
No, murder is not simply “killing”. It’s deliberate and aggressive killing of innocent life.
Abbott, assuming he believes late term abortion is murder, obviously holds a different view of first-trimester abortion.
Which means he holds a very different position to yours apparently.
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 2:10 am
LOL
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 2:11 am
Abbott on abortion:
“Murderer!”, shrieks JamesK.
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 2:15 am
It’s not just that you illiterate, stupid, ignorant and dishonest but that you denigrate the moral question entirely which makes you repulsive to deal with Fisky.
In fact on 14 Mar 13 at 11:59 pm above I wrote exactly what was Abbott’s position after a rare moment of agreement with Yobbo viz safe, legal and rare.
What you quote is a puff piece on Peta Credlin where she says
Abbott didn’t want to restrict abortion but does want the numbers reduced (rare).
Why do you keep doubling down on fuckwittery?
Are you hoping no one else will notice?
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 2:40 am
JamesK, I have presented evidence that Abbott has supported legalized abortion. In response, you have presented amateur psychology, insights into Abbott’s “real intentions” that obviously you will never have access to, and, predictably, abuse. That is all. You are a big fat knobjockey.
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 2:45 am
No you haven’t except insofar as politically he accepts it as a reality and he now wants it to be rare.
100% lies
No you are you morally deficient creep.
I have referenced an earlier comment of mine where I accurately described Abbott’s political position long before you decided to join in with the other hyaena.
You have made rediculous conclusioins of what you want to believe Abbott said rather than what he did say.
Again what’s really repugnant is the fact that you chose to triumphantly belittle the moral question for petty perceived point-scoring and you did not read and understand what Abbott wrote.
Because you are incapable of reading and comprehending those with whom you disagree
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 2:55 am
James
You are not very consistant. Abortion is legal therefore is not murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of a life as you so like to tell me when advocating for the Government to take a life because we can have great faith in them doing so. So let’s not get into this “thou shall not murder” argument.
kelly liddle
15 Mar 13 at 3:01 am
How do you know you have accurately represented Abbott’s opinion when you haven’t provided any evidence for it? I have quotes on the public record. You have supposition and abuse.
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 3:06 am
Sorry, I should say “I have provided quotes on the public record”
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 3:06 am
He certainly isn’t. We all remember how he claimed that gay marriage was somehow linked to public support for Joseph Stalin, later pretending he had never said such a thing.
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 3:07 am
James may well be inconsistent, but murder is a concept older and more set than the whim of some government can change.
On your basis, the government could cut the murder rate to zero by making killing others legal.
Driftforge
15 Mar 13 at 6:25 am
kelly, I know you are an emotional petal and not terribly bright but where did I say abortion was murder?
Certainly not in the supposed gotcha quote you presented.
In fact in the quote you presented rather proves the that I didn’t say abortion was murder.
At least you’re consistent kelly as you consistently demonstrate that you’re stupid.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 9:00 am
The public record shows you are a morally deficient superficial illiterate twit.
And I have quoted in support of my position, you contemptible moron.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 9:02 am
In order to temper CL’s triumphalism re how the Catholic Church is crushing all opposition before it, with a Pope from a highly Catholic country (I think about 70% or so are said to be Catholic), here’s a bit of a cold shower:
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 9:36 am
Thanks for that link to Philip Jenkins, Steve – the left-wing academic famous for condemning the Bible as worse than the Koran and for abandoning Catholicism for the priestess-led Episcopalian ‘church’ of America.
Steve has been on the internet now for 24 hours straight expressing his hatred for Catholicism. He claims to be married with children.
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 10:07 am
jarrah:
You are being mendacious.
Lets look at context, eh?
So he does NOT agree with you, does he? You have warped his actual meaning well out of true in an effort to score the cheapest of points.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 10:15 am
CL shooting the messenger.
It’s true: Catholics in nominal numbers are growing; it remains clear that in vast swathes of Catholicism, the Church is having decreasing influence both politically and with its laity.
As I have said before, this is slowly evolving issue, going back to how Pius IX tried to stem the influence of modernity. The failure of his approach was exacerbated in the 1960′s, when the then Pope went against the advice of a Commission on the issue of contraception – a teaching that was immediately rejected by the broader Church, and which has (along with the sex abuse scandals) seriously eroded the Church’s authority regarding all teaching regarding sexuality and sexual relationships.
There is a real problem in the Church, and while the way it will be resolved is not clear, it is extremely likely that it will involved a future reconsideration of theological thinking about itself and how it operates.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 10:27 am
The Conclave has done something brilliant. No wonder the pavements are spattered with the exploded heads of leftards/greenfilth.
He’s not acting like all the reactionary left-wing elitists act now that he has the power. He’s not acting (and has never acted) so.
So I’ve noticed that every Australian Bolshevik Collective and Socialist Broadcasting Service ‘report’ makes a bit of a mention, then breathlessly brings in some sex scandal and discusses that, instead.
We are watching a real ‘moron meltdown’ in the leftosphere.
Poor leties, so hard to maintain the narrative now.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 10:44 am
LOL. Steve the Wiki King now quoting himself.
You hadn’t heard of Pius IX until last week, Steve.
The Catholic Church is in a rude state of health throughout the world.
Somehow the Church managed to destroy the USSR 20 years after (the now vindicated) Humanae vitae.
The weakest areas are those dominated by leftist Church leaders for nearly 50 years.
Like Australia.
Oh yeah: thanks again for that link to embittered left-wing ex-Catholic Koran apologist, Phil Jenkins. A man who has embraced the completely dead, priestess-led Episcopalian ‘church’ is certainly somebody to listen to on the subject of ecclesiastical robustness and relevance.
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 10:46 am
After abandoning the Catholic Church… Phil Jenkins’ new spiritual leader:
http://themcj.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Katharine-Jefferts-Schori.jpg
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 10:52 am
Look, when sfb is talking about nominal Catholics we should listen attentively.
dover_beach
15 Mar 13 at 10:53 am
Cripes, CL, at first I thought you’d linked to an image taken at the homosexual’s parade in Sydney!
She’s a right piece of work, though, and has caused schism, waste and despair (funny that).
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 11:00 am
Hey she’s given Anglican Christianity every ‘reform’ conservative catholic liar-steve® wants of his beloved religion
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 11:08 am
How far have the Episcopalians sunk? When will they hit bottom?
dover_beach
15 Mar 13 at 11:14 am
And that, my friends, is – chapter and verse – exactly what left-wing ‘Catholics’ want for the Catholic Church.
Note that the evil priestess believes the state must be involved in absolutely everything – except preventing the killing of children.
So Christ-like!
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 11:14 am
Californian protestanism going well:
Crystal Cathedral Sold To Roman Catholic Diocese Of Orange.
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 11:16 am
Without reading through the whole thread, would it be safe to assume our progressive friend from Pinkenba is certain the Catholic Church is doomed to ruination unless there’s an atheist LGBTI Pope who touts for abortion clinics, sabotages coal loaders and runs guns for Shining Path?
lotocoti
15 Mar 13 at 11:52 am
You must be psychic.
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 11:53 am
Changing the Church always begins at home, so why not join the process by starting to go to Mass on Sundays again? (Confession first, though, and don’t worry, because you will feel better afterwards, I assure you.)
My other prescription is a closer reading of the last 2000 years of church history. I’d recommend Warren Carroll’s History of Christendom series – it’s five or six volumes, but they’re highly readable and shamelessly Catholic. And it will give you a far greater sense of proportion about the current crisis, because quite frankly, it’s been far, far worse in the past.
There has always been a ‘real problem in the Church’. It’s called sin, or human nature, or whatever you prefer. We tend to stuff things up when it comes to God; the Old Testament is very clear on this front (read the whole thing some time; it really repays reading throughout, from Genesis to Malachi). And there has been a problem in the modern Church since Judas sneaked out at the Last Supper.
The answer is not in changing its theological thinking about itself, although this will continue to develop as it has always done. There may be changes in how it operates on a secular level, in some areas.
But the Church itself won’t change, because it has no right to. It believes it has a clear mandate given to it – to save people from spiritually destroying themselves – and it will continue to try to do this, long after we’re all dead and buried, with very little reference to our brilliant debates on the Cat.
So Pope Francis is quite right – if the Church forgets its mandate, which is to help people out of sin and into real happiness, it will simply become a compassionate NGO.
Philippa Martyr
15 Mar 13 at 12:06 pm
CL:
Yup. And it’s why left wing ‘Catholics’ are not Catholics at all, but schismatics seeking the Church’s destruction, and so in reality the enemies of the Church.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 12:11 pm
“So he does NOT agree with you, does he?”
Not on all points, no. I never said he did. I quoted one (centrally important) belief of his where he agrees with me.
I did make one assumption – that by “living human being”, he meant ‘person’, because obviously a first trimester fetus is a living human being. They’re not an aardvark, after all. Maybe someone should point that out to him.
Jarrah
15 Mar 13 at 12:22 pm
Even in context, Abbott supports the legality of first trimester abortion. He would like to see less of them (as would everybody), but he supports the right to abortion all the same.
Your quoting of the entire speech didn’t change the meaning at all. Abbott supports legal abortion, which is murder according to JamesK.
Yobbo
15 Mar 13 at 12:23 pm
It seems that this new Pope chap did not graduate from the Slippery Pete school of public administration.
Apparently he pays his own bills
Leigh Lowe
15 Mar 13 at 12:27 pm
Fence sitter. Like saying one is only a little bit pregnant.
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 12:36 pm
Labour MP Hilariously Assumes Vatican’s Black or White Smoke is Racist
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 12:37 pm
Cripes Yobbo, you been on the turps, or is comprehension not your strong suite?
Read it again – and carefully this time. Actually read it.
How does this: Aborting a first trimester fetus is not morally identical to deliberately killing a living human being, but it’s not just removing a wart or a cyst either.
Clash with this: His political position is that of Bill Clinton’s viz abortion should be safe, legal and rare.
This is a moral issue. The Church notes on the morality of it that abortion is the morally correct choice in very specific circumstances (such as ectopic pregnancies). Outside those circumstances, it is the taking of a human life. Where done outside this narrow range of circumstances, for example for convenience, ideology or whatever reason, it is in my view morally indistinguishable from murder. A child in first trimester is not a wart or a cyst.
I think this is Abbott’s moral view too, he being a moral man and a practising Catholic. That view was well summarised by Clinton’s comment.
And FWIW my wife and I have plenty of skin in this game. Our last child was not expected, was not really affordable, was not supposed to be medically possible, and posed a grave threat to my wife’s life. Killing that child would have been morally defensible even under Church moral definitions (that’s how high the risk was) – and my wife did not consider that for more than the instant it took to consider it and reject it with honest and open revulsion. She took the risk to herself and we were lucky, it paid off. That child is now a fine young person.
I am a bit dismissive of the posturing of those who have never had skin in that game (not that I am implying that you have not had skin in that game).
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 12:53 pm
This would be like someone saying that I support or defend abortion given that I might support a resolution that allowed abortion in cases of rape but that proscribed abortion in all other instances.
dover_beach
15 Mar 13 at 1:04 pm
Hey, remember a few months ago when Abbott’s denunciation of abortion as “the easy way out” was being wheeled out by pro-infanticide Julia Gillard as evidence of his misogynistic misogyny?
Yeah, well. He was really promoting abortion!
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 1:14 pm
Right. But Abbott said exactly the opposite of this.
I’m not sure what’s so hard to get about this. Tony Abbott does not share your view on abortion.
Yobbo
15 Mar 13 at 1:15 pm
Except that Abbott doesn’t make that qualification.
Yobbo
15 Mar 13 at 1:16 pm
LOL (and I actually did, Abu, briefly)
Fisky said
In response, JamesK wrote:
Isn’t it nice how JamesK proved Fisky’s point for him?
Although on a small number of issues JamesK and I agree, such as:
Although I suspect that the majority also thinks JamesK’s as nutty as a fruitcake. Never mind.
This thread is great.
Oh come on
15 Mar 13 at 1:18 pm
I understand Oco.
Your ego has been repetitively stung
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 1:21 pm
Emily Listers would actually like to see more abortions. They see abortion as right of passage for women.
You only have to see how outraged Planned Parenthood were at Nanny Bloomberg this week.
Infidel Tiger
15 Mar 13 at 1:30 pm
I doubt it, JamesK, as you understand very little. Anyway, don’t fret. I enjoy winding you up. It’s quite amusing. Some would say it’s not nice to mock the afflicted and I’d normally agree, but you’re an exception. I’ll say a few Hail Marys later in penance or something.
Oh come on
15 Mar 13 at 1:34 pm
I do fret for thin-skinned popinjays with huge if fragile egos like you Oco
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 1:39 pm
“The Conclave has done something brilliant. No wonder the pavements are spattered with the exploded heads of leftards/greenfilth.
Addressing the cardinals who elected him as Latin America’s first pope, the 76-year-old Argentinian said the church could “end up a compassionate NGO”, using an Italian word that can also mean “pitiful”.”
Yeah, the leftards and greenfilth will be sooo disappointed that catholic socialism will be mixed up with a bit of extra skyfairyism and fretting about the devil.
I’m pretty sure that the robber barons of the world aren’t thinking the election of Horehay is going to help them let loose the dogs of capitalism. I’m equally sure that the Franky isn’t about to unleash a new wave of economic libertarianism.
Pedro
15 Mar 13 at 1:41 pm
Riiiiight. Maybe you can type out a ridiculously long noun phrase to describe me? It’d probably prove how unpeculiar you really are.
Oh come on
15 Mar 13 at 1:42 pm
Yobbo:
I am unsure too – I do not understand why you can’t see a very obvious moral similarity in those statements. In moral terms, they are complementary, not contradictory. Abbott is referring to precisely those areas where abortion is moral. The moral matter has been decided long ago, the life of a child in the first trimester is less valuable than that of the mother where there is an either-or risk to the life of the mother, or when the pregancy cannot continue without killing both.
But a child ‘is not a wart or a cyst’ lacking any value in moral terms. It has to be considered in all cases – and this is what the pro-murder abortionists absolutely refuse to do. To those murdering bastards, no child’s life has any value whatsoever over that of ‘a wart or a cyst’ until born – and some deny that the child’s life has any value even then!
Yobbo, are you implying that the inconvenience (personal or financial or whatever) of a baby to the mother is a moral consideration which outweighs the value of the life of the unborn child?
If you do, we cannot possibly agree (not that I care about that) as we are on entirely different moral and ethical planets.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 1:43 pm
He refers to abortion in the first trimester as an “objectively grave matter”. If it were not an “objectively grave matter”, he wouldn’t spend time qualifying the mother’s ‘right’ to abort the child in cases from rape to simple inconvenience.
dover_beach
15 Mar 13 at 1:44 pm
Me: “The Conclave has done something brilliant. No wonder the pavements are spattered with the exploded heads of leftards/greenfilth.
Addressing the cardinals who elected him as Latin America’s first pope, the 76-year-old Argentinian said the church could “end up a compassionate NGO”, using an Italian word that can also mean “pitiful”.”
Peddo:
I present as evidence of exploding lefty heads pedro’s words above.
Case closed.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 1:45 pm
AArgh! Peddo = Pedro
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 1:45 pm
Anyhoo, off to the range with the new rifle.
TTFN!
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 1:48 pm
Only I’m not a leftard or greenfilth Mk 50. And you will never find any evidence to the contrary in anything I’ve ever posted here or anywhere else.
The only objection greenfilth would have against RCC teaching is the ban on frangers and such.
The only leftard object is the anti-gay and anti-abortion stuff. Leftards who are atheist might object to the mumbo jumbo, but that’s not a specifically left thing. Really hard core leftards would see a big pot for redistribution, but on economic issues, the average lefty would think the RCC’s strong support for social democracy is just dandy.
On the really really big left issue, the RCC is completely of the left. The natural homes of the true RCC person are the DLP and the NCC.
Pedro
15 Mar 13 at 1:55 pm
Yes, yes pedant you may well be but it’s not you, it’s me.
Don’t fret.
LOL
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 2:04 pm
Only JamesK would find a way to unite me, m0nty, IT, Jarrah, DD, and other disparate forces in opposition to him. What a dummy, hey?
Fisky
15 Mar 13 at 2:14 pm
James K reminds me of the Ayatollah Khomeini.
Infidel Tiger
15 Mar 13 at 2:16 pm
You said it, doc. You said it.
Oh come on
15 Mar 13 at 2:19 pm
No, I’m saying that if you think abortion is murder and should be illegal, Tony Abbott does not agree with you. He is a supporter of legal abortion, even in convenience cases.
Yobbo
15 Mar 13 at 2:25 pm
There’s sure is a lot of effort that goes into showing that Tony doesn’t mean what he says, and is somehow consistent with Catholic teaching, when he isn’t.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 2:27 pm
Hey, that sounds like you!
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 2:29 pm
Tony Abbott: notorious supporter of ABORTION!
Ahahahahahahahaha.
Well, no. He commented in strictly Catholic terms on the hierarchy of culpability that exists when it comes to the always grave sin of abortion – the Church’s penance being pastorally attuned to the circumstances. (Yes folks, a 16 year-old girl who aborts a one month old baby is not judged the same way Kermit Gosnell is).
But she is judged.
————————————————-
Meanwhile, Pope Francis has words for Nancy Pelosi and friends:
New Pope: No Communion for Pro-Abortion Politicians.
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 2:41 pm
Driftforge @ 6.25am 15/3
Of course they can, how many people talk about Iraq or Afghanistan in respect to how many people the Australian or US troops murder. Remember it is a very long bow to call it self defence we had do go thousands of kilometres to find these people who had no way of attacking us.
kelly liddle
15 Mar 13 at 3:07 pm
Gab, I don’t claim to agree with Catholic teaching on abortion in its entirety.
Like Tony, I would like to see few abortions, but doubt that attempts at legislative enforcement of the Catholic position is wise and practical, given that we know from past and present experience, from all over the world, that large numbers of women (even Catholic ones) will attempt abortion regardless of legality, and many will die as a result.
Like Tony, I think legal abortion should be less contentious for early abortion, rather than later abortion.
Unlike Tony, I think there is scope (as there has been in America) for genuine debate about the Medicare funding of abortion, particularly if States make abortion of demand available until quite late in a pregnancy, as in Victoria.
Gab, I think relatively few Catholics realise how strict the Catholic position on abortion really is, and as with the wide Catholic acceptance of IVF (see Tony and Pyne on this, and I actually don’t agree with him on this), the majority of Catholics do not accept their Church’s teaching on reproductive matters in full detail.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 3:19 pm
As it written and so it shall come to pass…
Abu Chowdah
15 Mar 13 at 3:23 pm
Abortions – heavens sake, how about considering the act that has to occur before an abortion becomes necessary. Apart from rape, it’s a no brainer. Just remember that animals can’t abstain from instinctive behaviour, only humans do.
Louis Hissink
15 Mar 13 at 3:26 pm
“New Pope Francis I is a conservative in the mold of his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II. That’s especially true on the issue of abortion, which he called a “death sentence” for the unborn in 2007. “We aren’t in agreement with the death penalty,” he said during that speech, “but in Argentina we have the death penalty. A child conceived by the rape of a mentally ill or retarded woman can be condemned to death.”
Nobody expects the Argentinian Inquisition!
Pedro
15 Mar 13 at 3:35 pm
Will the painfully precious and self-righteous Oco ever make a pointed or significant critique or argument backed up with evidence?
Or are the usual mincing generalities and slime his sole stock-in-trade?.
Just this afternoon alone:
Isn’t it nice how JamesK proved Fisky’s point for him?Although I suspect that the majority also thinks JamesK’s as nutty as a fruitcake. Never mind.
I doubt it, JamesK, as you understand very little.
Anyway, don’t fret. I enjoy winding you up. It’s quite amusing. Some would say it’s not nice to mock the afflicted and I’d normally agree, but you’re an exception. I’ll say a few Hail Marys later in penance or something.
This thread is great
Riiiiight. Maybe you can type out a ridiculously long noun phrase to describe me? It’d probably prove how unpeculiar you really are.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 3:46 pm
What new strawman is this? Intimating that Abbott would try this on. That’s really quite low remark from you, SFB. Was it on the daily talking points sheet from the ALP?
What you seem not to understand is abortion laws are state level, not federal. Apart from that, I’m pretty certain Abbott knows the difference between church and state.
Gee, if only there was a way to stop that. Sadly, the reasons for abortions nowadays include lifestyle factors. It started out that abortions were rare and only for medical reasons and in the case of rape but my how the slippery slope has progressed.
And I think I’m sick of hearing you, a pretend Catholic, anoint yourself as spokesperson for all Catholics everywhere. Unless and until you canvass each Catholic around the globe, shut up already.
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 3:49 pm
This is easy.
dover_beach
15 Mar 13 at 4:00 pm
http://www.priestsforlife.org/statistics/09-03-30-gallup-catholics-abortion.pdf
Amazingly, 24% of American “regular churchgoing Catholics” thought abortion was morally acceptable.
The results are even more striking in the UK.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/most-uk-catholics-support-abortion-and-use-of-contraception-2083291.html
Jarrah
15 Mar 13 at 4:02 pm
And there’s Australia. (PDF warning)
Jarrah
15 Mar 13 at 4:04 pm
Just goes to show how poor Catholic schools and local leadership has been over the last 50 or more years.
dover_beach
15 Mar 13 at 4:10 pm
Thanks for doing SFB’s work for him, Jarrah.
yes and in full knowledge that this is against the Church’s teaching.
Reality is, the Church is not a democracy and it’s core doctrines are not negotiable to pander to the popular Zeitgeist. Any time any one disagrees they are free to leave and join another religion.
So poll away pollsters, but the Church will not change on the issue.
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 4:12 pm
Gab, you are clearly uninterested in knowing what my actual thoughts on the issue are: you would rather spend all your time condemning me from the straw man position that you and CL prefer.
It’s boring and tedious. Isn’t there an Order of nuns with a vow of silence that will take you; it would relief you of daily practice of spite and condemnation of all who disagree with you and the Pope.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 4:15 pm
I wonder what the poll would look like if they canvassed African and South American countries.
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 4:15 pm
Did you read that sentence, SFB? 24% is not “the majority of Catholics”.
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 4:21 pm
I wouldn’t ever expect the Catholic Church, or any church for that matter, to ever change their stance on abortion.
After all, the best way to make sure your church persists is to have your followers breed a lot. They aren’t allowed to burn people alive any more, so that’s all they got.
Yobbo
15 Mar 13 at 4:22 pm
Oh for goodness sake: the question “so you think abortion is morally acceptable” is incredibly vague as it gives no indication of the context in which an abortion may be happening.
The 24% figure tells us very little of the detailed beliefs of regular Church goers.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 4:25 pm
“Reality is, the Church is not a democracy and it’s core doctrines are not negotiable to pander to the popular Zeitgeist.”
I agree completely.
“I wonder what the poll would look like if they canvassed African and South American countries.”
Very different, I’m sure.
Jarrah
15 Mar 13 at 4:28 pm
LOL
Ring ring.
Hello?
Yes hello. It’s 1960 calling. Those damn god-botherers sure do breed a lot.
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 4:30 pm
“Just goes to show how poor Catholic schools and local leadership has been over the last 50 or more years.”
I’m with you there, what’s the point of claiming moral leadership if you put morals to the vote. That’s the road to NGOdom.
Pedro
15 Mar 13 at 4:30 pm
“The 24% figure tells us very little of the detailed beliefs of regular Church goers.”
It’s also just the figure for the committed Catholics. The overall figure for Catholics was 40%.
Jarrah
15 Mar 13 at 4:30 pm
Polls would probably also tend to show that most Catholics support – or could be Applebeyed to support – the death penalty. The Church isn’t going to greenlight that either.
Sorry, extremists.
The Church’s isn’t American Idol or the Gillard government.
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 4:41 pm
However, people who respect science should definitely be in the no abortion column. The religious types can have their scriptures and signs from above but the factual community has irrefutable proof that life begins at conception.
Infidel Tiger
15 Mar 13 at 4:43 pm
Actually, it’s a suicidal society that kills about 40% of the next generation before they’re born.
Eddystone
15 Mar 13 at 4:45 pm
The question is not just “when does life begin”, but “in what circumstances might it be deemed acceptable to have that form of life ended”.
And the answer is not always simple – if you were told there was a very high chance, nearly certain in fact, that your wife would die unless an abortion was soon administered, which would mean both mother and child would die – what you do?
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 4:51 pm
I stuffed that up, but the situation I was referring to was here.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 4:52 pm
Probably have the abortion. But unlike the other faggoty responses from the wishy washy community I’d admit that we just terminated a kid, not a potential rockmelon.
Infidel Tiger
15 Mar 13 at 4:54 pm
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 4:56 pm
By “that form” of life, Steve means human life.
The answer is easy: never.
Don’t like it?
Join up here:
http://www.uca.org.au/
See-ya!
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 4:59 pm
CL, the Church has not traditionally been against the death penalty. Recent popes, yes, but there is no traditional moral objection. Even the Catechism ums and aahs.
This is not meant to be a polemic point, just a matter of fact.
David Collard
15 Mar 13 at 5:02 pm
Wacky refugee psychiatrist cited an an authority:
Who’s Paul Mullen?
Let’s consult this hagiography in the Age from 2007:
Except Margaret Thatcher, of course.
Let’s ask Steve’s preferred expert, Professor Jenkins, to adjudicate:
The myth of the ‘pedophile priest’.
So atheist Thatcher refugee Paul Mullen was just making shit up before a parliamentary inquiry.
C.L.
15 Mar 13 at 5:18 pm
Correct and its not against it in certain countries even now.
I think the Church is wrong to make exceptions of those states it deems can lock the murderer up to protect the citizenry safely.
JamesK
15 Mar 13 at 5:33 pm
Great blog you got going there David . The chicks with short hair shit is just outta sight. And the Hiku that just goes on and on, outstanding.
You should smack inferior women down more though, makes the place look tidier. I mean c’mom, they really are jjust in need of a good Manly education and to realise that it’s not a woman’s place to meddle in what really is MansWorld carved from the image of our Manly God.
Well, all the best.
Dan
15 Mar 13 at 5:49 pm
Yobbo:
Once again, you refuse to deal with the issue of thjis being a moral matter and a legal matter in that order.
Firstly, that moral issues trump legal ones in the case of extinguishing human life was established at Nuremberg. The T4 and the Final Solution were completely legal under National Socialist law. Which was a reason the German state was legally terminated in 1945, so the moral crimes (crimes against humanity is a moral judgement turned into a legal one) committed could not be avoided by appeal to german national Socialist law.
Similarly, in matters relating to abortion, it is a moral issue and a legal issue in that order.
So your point on Abbott collapses. it is perfectly normal for a Catholic to hold the moral view that ‘abortion is murder’ (as I do) and simultaneously be perfectly happy with a woman having an ectopic pregancy to have an abortion (again, as I am). This is because the moral decision has been made, Yobbo, that in that case the right moral and ethical choice is to have the abortion (for the reasons discussed above). That it is also legal is a nice (but completely secondary) point.
If your sister (as an example) gets pregnant and all is well, but during the pregancy decides that a baby is unfashionable and too much of a drag on her ability to party, and she has a legal abortion, then that is legal. And that’s all.
Which does not stop it being as morally wrong as a killing under T4, does it? After all, that killing under T4 was legal when it occurred, was it not?
And morally, these are indistinguishable events – both are murder.
So Abbott (who has not explicitly said he’s OK with convenience killing of babies) can acknowledge the legality of such murders in Australia while also acknowledging that they are morally and ethically murder.
Which is why his wording was so very, very careful: a point you appear to have entirely missed.
By arguing solely from a legal basis (as you are doing) you are actually the sound of one hand clapping, for what you say is actually meaningless. As meaningless as arguing that T4 and the Final Solution were perfectly fine as they were legal under national Socialist law.
Now, I know you are not a racist, bigot and general dullard like Shitfer etc, so I think you actually get this – but you can’t acknowledge it. if you do, your point collapses even in your own eyes.
As I am approaching this from both the moral and the legal position, I understand this well.
But you cannot acknowledge that, which is why you simply talk past the issue, and cannot address it.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 6:13 pm
Hey, I have just been reading the (pretty good) Wikipedia article on the Catholic Church and abortion, and found this statement of which I was unaware:
Well, Catholics, go ahead and vote for Emily’s List-ers (as long as you are not doing it for their general pro-choice views); the former Pope said that can be quite OK.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 7:25 pm
Mk50 – your analysis does not get around this fact: the Catechism states:
Abbott does not agree with that part of Catholic teaching, regardless of whether you think he thinks its morally “murder” (which he almost certainly doesn’t, but do carry on with your attempted sophistry.)
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 7:42 pm
Shitfer, you provide mild amusement with every self-beclownment you perform here.
Especially when it’s plain you lack the ability to actually understand what’s being said. Precisely how does your final sentence relate to the discussion Yobbo and I have been having?
You state as fact that: “Abbott does not agree with that part of Catholic teaching…”
Can you actually prove this hypothesis of yours, or is it merely more of your normal inane blather?
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 8:58 pm
Blogging the shit out of it tonight Steve, keep the enthusiasm up
Dan
15 Mar 13 at 9:02 pm
I am working on the hypothesis now that you are blind, MK50.
Abortion should be legal [Abbott] does not equal abortion should always carry penal sanctions [Catholic catechism].
But go on, explain to the contrary.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 9:08 pm
I’m glad you appreciate my efforts, Dan the penis man.
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 9:11 pm
You know something MK50 I could wax lyrical about men who was lyrical about the things that happen in women’s bodies and the moral ramifications of that in your humble opinion.
Biut I will contain my ire because it wouldnt be pleasant if I let loose about what you think women should do.
Walk in our shoes. Abortions happen for all sorts of reasons and always have and the reality is men like you do not often get a say in it.
Thats the reality.
Aliice
15 Mar 13 at 9:16 pm
Steve and mAlice in succession, time to go now before this gets ugly.
Huckleberry Chunkwot
15 Mar 13 at 9:20 pm
So you cannot prove your comment, and it was merely more of your inane blather.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 9:38 pm
I could have a better conversation about this with a brick wall…
steve from brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 9:46 pm
The brick wall would outsmart you.
Gab
15 Mar 13 at 9:47 pm
Malice: {the usual banal tripe etc etc}
And comments on the morality of the matter translate in your alcohol-sodden brain into personal beliefs about “…what you think women should do”?
Go home Malice. You’re drunk.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 9:54 pm
Gab, I think Shitfer has conversations with brick walls on a regular basis.
When he does he’s trying to get an education from his intellectual superiors, of course.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 9:56 pm
MC50 – get over it. Im not as drunk as you are stupid. You dont have any say as much as you like to think you do in abortion moral, l;egal or otherwise.
Aliice
15 Mar 13 at 9:59 pm
MK50 tell me then – “what you think women should do” …and then tell me how many women will listen to you.
abortion will continue to happen with or without your opinions and with or without the law – it was always this way.
So i guess women make their own deciions if its oK with you Mr church going catholic?
That is the reality MK50 – are you going to be like the one show stops the boats of irish girls going to the UK for abortions in the 80s/
They may have listened to silly old men like you but they still did what they may have had to do and who are you to judge?
Aliice
15 Mar 13 at 10:05 pm
Malice, you are rather amusing tonight. The way you conflate general comment into personal is quite ridiculous.
Just why do you think I consider myself as having “…any say as much as you like to think you do in abortion moral, l;egal or otherwise” when making general comment?
No, on second thoughts don’t bother to answer. You opinion would be the usual valueless drooling.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 10:05 pm
The Lad has a good point,we are all yapping about The Pope ,no yapping about The Archbishop of whatever?
Tal
15 Mar 13 at 10:07 pm
The problem with Abortion and Euthanasia is basically the same problem – dehumanisation.
Best way to deal with it? Do either, face a jury trial. Not prepared to face the judgement of your peers? Don’t do it.
Driftforge
15 Mar 13 at 10:10 pm
Ok MK50 let me quote you
“If your sister (as an example) gets pregnant and all is well, but during the pregancy decides that a baby is unfashionable and too much of a drag on her ability to party, and she has a legal abortion, then that is legal. And that’s all.
Which does not stop it being as morally wrong as a killing under T4, does it? After all, that killing under T4 was legal when it occurred, was it not?”
So its a killing is it MK50?
You have NO idea why the abortion occurred. You assumed it was “unfashionable”. I know of no woman who aborted a baby because it was “unfashionable”
Your choice of words are odd indeed. Unwanted, unaffordable, no support, an accident yes
but unfashionable?
I cant recall the last time I saw a woman wearing a baby because it was “fashionable”, therefore I cant recall ever knowing or expecting to know a woman who aborted a baby because it was unfashionable.
Aliice
15 Mar 13 at 10:11 pm
Erm, Malice, did you miss the words ‘as an example’?
Your basic comprehension is abysmal. ‘An example’ is an exercise used to illustrate a principle, method, or concept.
Yet, you poor drongo, you came up with this:
That you say this about an illustrative example used in a discussion is hilarious.
Mk50 of Brisbane
15 Mar 13 at 10:24 pm
As though any of those reasons are valid reason to kill a human.
Driftforge
15 Mar 13 at 10:40 pm