Kate Ellis on early childhood education

Kate Ellis was in the parliament today talking better wages for early childhood educators and putting the boot into Judith.

Kate Ellis on ECE

Small problem though – the benches behind Ellis are empty. For all the rhetoric very few MPs were there to share her pride.

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214 Responses to Kate Ellis on early childhood education

  1. Does Kate Ellis actually have any children?

  2. Gab

    Sinclair, is that meant to be a video ’cause it’s not playing.

  3. Sinclair Davidson

    Gab – no. That’s not the video. I can’t embed it. You’ll have to go to her facebook page to watch the video.

  4. Sinclair Davidson

    Philippa – no. She only got married earlier this year. To Penberthy on News Limited IIRC.

  5. m0nty

    Does Kate Ellis actually have any children?

    What’s your point, Philippa?

  6. Token

    What’s your point, Philippa?

    When you have some M0nty, this will make sense.

  7. Gab

    I tried watching the video, really I did. But with her constant hair tossing I really can’t be bothered. I prefer to read the transcript. Mind you, the first few words out of her mouth were lies. This government is not the first government to get involved with regulating early childhood care.

  8. Infidel Tiger

    I feel like finger painting.

  9. Sinclair Davidson

    Gab – always best to watch Ellis with the sound turned down.

  10. egg_

    Wasn’t Maxine McWho’s only policy contribution edumacation for 3-year-olds?

  11. Lloyd

    With the support she has in that video, she’ll be the next PM…

  12. Dianne

    The bigger question is – when are we going to address this? Judith raises some good points – cost of childcare, the qualifications needed to work in the field are a couple.

    & today, whilst at work I was listening to Sydney talk radio the reports of the pathologist in the trial of the death of that little girl – perhaps you do need a university degree to have a child.

  13. m0nty

    When you have some M0nty, this will make sense.

    When they appoint an Aboriginal person to head up Aboriginal Affairs (or whatever it’s called now), a veteran to handle Veteran’s Affairs, an immigrant to handle Immigration, a farmer to handle Agriculture, a former manufacturing CEO to handle Industry and an economist as Treasurer… then get back to me.

    Until then, there is no salient point to make.

  14. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    I saw this airhead speak in Parliament early in the piece – I think Comrade Dear Leader (in exile) made her someone important, such as Minister Sitting Behind the Dispatch Box in Parliament because She’s Sexy, evidently.

    It was approximately 14 year old schoolgirl.

    I don’t think I need to watch or hear her ever again.

  15. Mind you, the first few words out of her mouth were lies.

    That’s a shame. That’s how she and her husband got started too, according to the Silly:

    CUPID has been busy in our state and federal political circles. A month after the former Daily Telegraph editor David Penberthy and Canberra’s ”Minister for Glamour” Kate Ellis emphatically denied they were an item, PS can reveal love is definitely in the air.

    Recently separated from his wife, Penberthy reluctantly confirmed there had been ”chemistry” and that Ellis, the Minister for Employment Participation, Childcare and Status of Women, had accepted to go on a ”date” to see Powderfinger next month.

    The pair denied relationship rumours after they dined together in South Africa at Johannesburg’s aptly named power-restaurant Wall Street during the World Cup. This week Penberthy had an about-face and confirmed things were heating up between the pair.

    Ellis has been a long-term contributor to Penberthy’s political website The Punch. The pair both hail from Adelaide, went to the same university and have mingled in similar circles for years.

  16. duncanm

    munster,

    I think you’ll find in a coalition government that mostly is what happens.

    They don’t have shop stewards and ambulance chasers running the whole show.

  17. egg_

    Until then, there is no salient point to make

    As valid as writing a handbook on moonwalking having never been there or a virgin writing sex manuals…

  18. Alfonso

    Noooo….
    Socialist apparatchiks are best suited as pubic service heads, you know it makes sense.
    Sorry for for the outing, Ken.

  19. m0nty

    I think you’ll find in a coalition government that mostly is what happens.

    They don’t have shop stewards and ambulance chasers running the whole show.

    Not really, they’re mostly lawyers, cockies and carpet strollers. I still remember Alston in Communications, he barely knew one end of a phone from the other.

  20. It was approximately 14 year old schoolgirl.

    I don’t think I need to watch or hear her ever again.

    Ja’mie King.

  21. Jarrah

    We should amend the Constitution so we didn’t have to pick Cabinet from parliamentarians. Then we really could have experts in the field manage the relevant departments. At the moment they’re just likely to be lawyers or union apparatchiks or both.

    Of course this goes back to the ancient debate about democracy in general. I’m fairly sure Socrates objected to the idea of ‘common people’ being elected rulers, with Plato taking that idea to its logical conclusion.

    For those who read SF, you may recall the Bene Gesserit idea was to breed and train an expert ruling class.

  22. Jarrah

    “As valid as writing a handbook on moonwalking having never been there or a virgin writing sex manuals…”

    Or religious celibates talking about sex and marriage and children? 😉

  23. jupes

    I still remember Alston in Communications, he barely knew one end of a phone from the other.

    Yea, we are so lucky that Conroy is running the show now.

  24. Token

    Until then, there is no salient point to make

    Seeing you are qualified to speak as a parent, while you are at it please tell me how you are qualified to speak as a women.

  25. Snoopy

    Gab – always best to watch Ellis with the sound turned down.

    With the sound track from a Sharapova / Azarenka match?

  26. Sinclair Davidson

    the Bene Gesserit idea was to breed and train an expert ruling class.

    … and how well did that work out?

  27. H B Bear

    Not even the Pieman? Perverted dwarf that he is.

  28. Gab

    wow look at that Labor frontbench go the perv. Very sexist.

  29. Jarrah

    “… and how well did that work out?”

    Not too badly, until the Kwisatz Haderach was born.

  30. Token

    I still remember Alston in Communications, he barely knew one end of a phone from the other.

    …by contrast to Senator Red Underpants who doesn’t know one end of a business plan from the other.

  31. .

    I agree with Jarrah, For the most part, I like the US system.

    However, why the fark do we have a Federal Minister for Childcare?

    It is just vomit inducing sap.

    We only need childcare for those who can’t afford it because they have been taxed out of a reasonably affordable family home.

    Maybe I’m wrong and we need a Minister for Puppies, Fireworks and Swedish Supermodels.

  32. Sinclair Davidson

    hmmm – control over the Kwisatz Haderach was the plan.

  33. Gab

    I bags being Minister for Fireworks.

  34. Jarrah

    “Maybe I’m wrong and we need a Minister for Puppies, Fireworks and Swedish Supermodels.”

  35. egg_

    I still remember Alston in Communications, he barely knew one end of a phone from the other.

    Was a Public Servant under Alston’s Administration, actually.
    Respectfully disagree (at least, he was a Barrister).

  36. Infidel Tiger

    Hahaha!

    Tyrion wanted to be god of tits and wine, instead he became Master of Coin

  37. I bags being Minister for Fireworks.

    All yours, Gab. Can’t wait for the maiden speech.

    I’ll take the puppies; I will bring a basketful of them to every press conference and watch hardened journalists melt.

  38. Sinclair Davidson

    So, um, Jarrah and I get the swedish supermodels or get to be minister of swedish supermodels? For a grammar nazi, Jarrah wasn’t clear on this point. 🙂

  39. Gab

    Thanks, Philippa. I used to sell material that was used in materiel to blow things up. I’m qualified for the job.

  40. I would also consider taking responsibility for little fluffy bunnies.

  41. Jarrah

    “For a grammar nazi, Jarrah wasn’t clear on this point.”

    That was Punctuation Mark.

  42. Gab

    Yeah. no. Ditch your second idea, Philippa. Not a good look for when Abbott is PM.

  43. Perhaps you’re right. Puppies it is, then.

    Can’t wait for all the free trips overseas to inspect puppy facilities. And to the UN to ratify the International Puppy Convention.

  44. mareeS

    Go easy on Kate. She’s still relatively young, and is the unfortunate product of a modern education. The doctrine may wear off once she has children of her own. If not, and she proves to be terminally stupid, charges of child abuse could be an option.

  45. Youngster

    I have mates who have turned the Ellis hair flick into a drinking game. Down goes a shot every time she flicks those locks.

  46. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Toddlers bring out the worst in the university educated.
    I think that this is probably a bad move.
    Perhaps the not-terribly-good universities will be the saving factor.

  47. Infidel Tiger

    “Progressives” spend the first 9 months of the child’s life trying to abort it and the rest of its life trying to indoctrinate it.

    We really need some sort of doctrine that will muzzle them until they are civilised.

  48. Aliice

    Dianne says

    perhaps you do need a university degree to have a child.

    Oh I am just sure the unis would love that. You need a degree to have a child (and the degree for having children must be accredited and then think of all the extra hecs and fees they could charge to have useless accepting sheep strolling around camnpus just like now?)

    You know Dianne – dont give them any more ideas. The wage / licensing / training nexus has got way out of hand and there are so many “ejacation” institutions having a pardee since Julia came in with her stupid ideas and the states backed her up and all they are doing is stopping real job learning and keeping kids on campus who shouldnt be there.

    Tell them to get off their asses and start creating real jobs instead of all this nonsense. Half the younger gen is on campus for want of any decent employment. Lets look at that huh?. Dont even talk about prospective parents being on campus or next thing you know you will all be there having to pass a Bachelor of Procreation or a Cert IV in Reproduction before you have sex with your partner.

    God the sooner they go the better. Businesses and individuals need LESS interference not more. They can pack up their bags and just go (but can they take Photios out with them because he and his mate are on the graft with insurance companies and we just dont need any more graft).

  49. Aliice

    IT – this interference in qualifications and education (where is DOT when I need him? Is he in Thailand? I havent heard a peep out of him for weeks?) has gotten out of hand. Let the headmaster decide what goes on in the school and tell the bureacrats to butt out – and better still resign (bloody do gooders).

  50. Aliice

    As for Kate

    Oh yes she now has the gall to call for higher wages for childcare workers after the government closed or privatised all its childcare centres and removed the subsidies from the parents.
    Childcare shortage Kate? Too bad. You decided to privatise and now have no right to tell private operators what to do.

    Isnt that right? Put some of your own salary on the table to fund a childcare worker or shut up (basiaclly because she doesnt have any better ideas).

  51. .

    Alice

    If you think Government interference is bad, why would we want Government owned and operated childcare?

    Yes you are right about credentialism.

    There is actually a Cert. II in water management, if you want to lear how to clean a bloody pool.

  52. .

    I misread what you wrote, mea culpa, mea culpa maxima.

  53. Aliice

    Dot

    I dont want any more regulation in education (they have gone way beyond the pale) but what really ticks me off no end is not the theoretical argument they Goivernment should or shouldnt run childcare centres BUT that they should flog them all off and then deign to make the rules for how the private sector runs what those they no longer own??? (bludging lazy bastards) ahem bureaucrats.

    I mean what is this – tinkering uselessly at the edges with legislation they no longer even understand the effects of? Dot, that is the reality – not only can they not run it, they dont know how not to be interfering so businesses can get on with th job.

    We are stuck between a rock and hard place. We pay our taxes to support their jobs (forget infrastructure forget services) and they give nothing back except a nuisance factor.

  54. blogstrop

    Kate Ellis talking in parliament about things she doesn’t understand; Russell Crowe expressing the usual opinions of an actor re politics – lack of gallantry in politics?

    Is this what important national debates boil down to? Photogenic bimbos?

  55. Mundi

    It actually makes sense that we have a minister of Child care. Have you read all the legislation? There must be a whole department and minister just thinking up ways to make it as complicated as they can.

    I challange any person to calculate their child care benefit from the legislation. Doing this is a real eye-opener. I honestly beleive the complexity is deliberatly added, maybe its to ‘create’ IT jobs for the computer software needed to calculate what is going on, maybe its done to deliberatly make comparisons between people incredibily hard. The most likly reason is to make people surfs, make it impossible for them to financially plan. I bet not one 10,000 could honestly tell you the change in FTBA FTBB CCB CCR etc etc from earning a bit more money.

  56. .

    Alice

    Refer to my mea culpa.

    It is bizzare to me that this is somehow a Federal issue.

    We Federated for common defence and uniform commerce rules and no internal tariffs.

    I stand by my Ministry for Puppies, Fireworks and Swedish Models comment. That and the mind blowingly bad joke that is an education system which has ‘Certificate II in water Management”

    I have changed my mind and actually think we’re regressing.

  57. Aliice

    F****** hell Dot – dont tell me there is a Cert II in water management to clean a pool? This has all gotten to the stage of utter BS. They are even creating a welfare class from those who cant afford uni and tafe fees to get the reulated Certs.

    Its utter interference gone stark raving mad. Look at Tafe will you? They sell every course under the sun as long as you spend more (or qual time) time “in trainin” than doing your work you will be fine.
    Its hell for kids these days I tell you and it is the stupid (incredibly irreversibly stupid) governments fault.

  58. Aliice

    Dot honestly I am in total agreement with you. I refer to your mea culpa I took no offence anywhere at any stage.
    We really ARE regressing.

  59. JC

    Alice

    Stop trying to seek attention from the younger fellas here. There are sites to do that.

  60. dd

    There is actually a Cert. II in water management, if you want to learn how to clean a bloody pool.

    These Certs actually lower the quality of employees because for any job, they reduce the pool of applicants to the few stoics who could sit through the tedium – and cough up the money – for the Cert II, Cert III, or Cert IV.

    It also is bad for the economy because it makes it harder for individuals to career change. If you want to change jobs you have to and get a mickey mouse certificate, sit through dull, low-information-volume classes, and in the end you might not even like that new career after all.

  61. .

    JC

    Check this

    What a bloody ridiculous idea

    http://training.gov.au/Training/Details/NWP20107

    The PDF spells it all out

    http://training.gov.au/TrainingComponentFiles/NWP07/NWP20107_R2.pdf

    Basically, the National Tranining joint venture is a cancer on the economy and the people.

    When I lived on a farm, I had to turn the bore back on when it got a bit dry and the pressure dropped (thankfully we got a big dose of rain and the shallow groundwater and rain tanks both recharged/filled again).

    …without the aid of the NWP20107 package.

  62. .

    It also is bad for the economy because it makes it harder for individuals to career change. If you want to change jobs you have to and get a mickey mouse certificate, sit through dull, low-information-volume classes, and in the end you might not even like that new career after all.

    Indeed.

    I’ve had to cop two and I’m trying to stomach another.

    Having an ex SAS guy run one made it tolerable. He even had a drink with us at the end of most days!

    The other thing is the courses go on for so bloody long…and they don’t need to.

    The RSA and RCG I had when I was but a pup were run by a mean spirited licensing seargant and a shifty bar manager. Admittedly they knew what they were talking about and tried to soften the blow by pumping the shit out at an absolutely rapid pace.

  63. Aliice

    Dot – not only that I can honestly tell from what I am seeing out there its a self feeding loop back chain of regulations. I help a small landscape business (and I mean small – three or four guys max) – they make lovely landscaped gardens and do tree planting for councils, parks maintenance that sort of stuff.
    Now because of WHS legislation I needed to upload their details, quals all that to apply for council tender band sort out all the electronic requirements of govt. Well one of the guys has been there five years and he doesnt have no cert anything…and the subcontracted website made me downgrade his quals to assistant labourer. In fact on the jobs he is in charge.
    He does the work, he is good at the work. Its up to the business to give him promotions, not bureacrats to downgrade him based on his no certs.
    Strangely enough they are the only company to be approved by a particular council in this system (because I know the bullshit and can play the game – but they had to pay my time which they cant really afford and I didnt charge much – but the reality is they shouldnt have to do that and dont need this nonsense as an overlay cost on their business – they are only a small business – its hard enough to survive).

    There is way too much legislative interference in small business and individuals going about their work at every level. Way too much.

    Dot you would not believe the amount of paperwork wanted for four landscapers. Utter utter costly interference – no other word for it.

  64. cohenite

    When they appoint an Aboriginal person to head up Aboriginal Affairs (or whatever it’s called now), a veteran to handle Veteran’s Affairs, an immigrant to handle Immigration, a farmer to handle Agriculture, a former manufacturing CEO to handle Industry and an economist as Treasurer… then get back to me.

    Until then, there is no salient point to make.

    Or a criminal to handle criminal investigations, or a climate scientist to deal with AGW, that worked well, didn’t it?

  65. dd

    People are incredulous and disbelieving that the world worked fine before the forest of credentials sprouted around us. On-the-job learning is ultimately the only way to master a vocation. It’s really sad the way the workforce has become the servant of massive bureaucracies and stuck in a web of regulation and rules.

  66. Gab

    People are incredulous and disbelieving that the world worked fine before the forest of credentials sprouted around us. On-the-job learning is ultimately the only way to master a vocation.

    journalism comes to mind. or what passes for journalism these days.

  67. Aliice

    JC on this topic Dot and I are on the same wavelength so stop being suspicious. I am not trying to get younger mens attention JC!! No use trying to do that unless in real life you wouldnt terrify them and Im too old not to terrify a young bloke away (I would be totally terrified as well… JC so dont worry – we would scare each other equally).

  68. JC

    DD

    I have a theory on this. The genesis of the need to credentialize almost every job came about because of the influence of expertologists.

    Victoria has 10 dead on weekend and some blathering idiot … usually an academic… telling the listeners the gobinment needs to lower the speed on roads to 25 K an hour on freeways.

  69. JC

    (I would be totally terrified as well… JC so dont worry – we would scare each other equally).

    Na, sorry Alice. Life doesn’t work that way. It’s a gals that lose their appeal with age. Fellas do fine. I get handsomer by the day.

  70. Aliice

    dd

    It’s really sad the way the workforce has become the servant of massive bureaucracies and stuck in a web of regulation and rules.

    Yes dd it is but it has all come about through the interference of government and the ratchet effect of said government and mandating training and all sorts of nonsense (eg for WHS, CPD, registrations etc).
    Its a feedback chain of legislation that is actually choking a lot of small businesses attempting to comply. The only thing it justifies is the jobs of the idiots who design it.

  71. .

    I for one want to know why a constitutional barrister needs to get CPD points.

    It is a bit ridiculous.

  72. Aliice

    JC

    It’s a gals that lose their appeal with age. Fellas do fine. I get handsomer by the day.

    JC you havent seen me in action. I pass. The funny thing I have noticed about ???(vain) men is they always think older women need them because a woman who is older cant get a man.

    JC I have to tell you when I was younger my hubby used to say the same thing and it scared the hell out of me… but hey guess what?

    It just aint true at all!! My Mums on hubby no three and men just never give up chasing no matter how old you are (did you know that? Its true).

  73. brc

    My old man has had the same septic for 35 years.

    Along came the council and said it required yearly inspections by a certified person, ad helpfully gave them a list.

    He said a FU by studying his cert online and now ‘certifies’ it himself.

    This has all got to stop, but how, and when?

    The coalition idea of having sitting days dedicated to repeal is good, but will they really unwind all of this?

    I fear not. For every couple of things Campbell Newman has repealed, another 20 have probably sprang up.

    All because no politician have the stones to stand up and say ‘life is uncertain, deal with it’

  74. Aliice

    Dot says

    Indeed.

    I’ve had to cop two and I’m trying to stomach another.

    I hear you Dot. My son is trying to take a breather at the moment and he is a third of a degree in EE he is trying to turn into something by way of experience for a year working on his CV (thats a damn hard degree) to actually make some money. Jeez now he needs freaking certs 1s, 2s and 3s according to recuitment agents when he has done a third of a hard degree – this is ridiculous!

  75. Infidel Tiger

    Australia really is a toilet. Th only reason most of don’t up and leave is our lack of credentials.

  76. Aliice

    You know what – They all need sitting days for the next ten years to unwind some of the ridiculous over legislation. Is it any wonder people want to strip the public sector of its positions?. They have had a gutful of legislative interfence.

  77. Aliice

    IT

    ROFL –

    Australia really is a toilet. Th only reason most of don’t up and leave is our lack of credentials.

    hahahaha. Pay that!

  78. .

    IT

    All holders of Cert II in Emigration Planning will now have to enrol in Cert IV in Emigration Planning and Operations.

    There is also a conversion course from the retired Cert IV in International Labour Market Emigration, “ILME to EPAO” (say Imlay to E-pow)

    The sad thing is, that doesn’t sound made up.

  79. Aliice

    Dot seriously did you read this thing you posted? Its a joke.
    Really it is across the board out there!!! Tafe and unis are making a lot of money by govt interfering in people’s work lives. Thats what annoys me. Its a con.
    I mean have you ever needed someone to do a detailed drawing of how theyw ill clean your pool. Christ expect pool cleanings to cost a couple of grand soon to cover the pool cleaners training costs!
    Its utter nonsense and its exceptional interference in people’s working lives .

    “NWP20107 Certificate II in Water
    Operations

    Hang on there are something like forty subjects to complete probably taking two years at Tafe before a guy can “safely be qualified” to handle the chlorine to clean your pool?
    Listen to thse subjects… (and this is JUST the communication module of the pool cleaning CERT)

    I am amazed they didnt use the word “stakeholders”

    communicates effectively with internal and external customers
    ?
    records and relays relevant information
    ?
    understands and uses relevant definitions, terminology, symbols
    and language
    ?
    interprets plans, drawings and specifications
    ?
    participates in the implementation and monitoring of OHS
    policies and procedures
    ?
    follows reporting procedures for monitoring conformi
    ty with
    statutory requirements
    ?
    records and reports work activities
    ?
    produces basic reports and logs
    ?
    operates communications equipment
    ?
    gives and receives instructions
    ?
    follows plans, charts and instructions
    ?
    understands a range of technical documents, includi
    ng:
    ?
    specifications
    ?
    plans
    ?
    organisational policies
    ?
    service requirements specified in customer contracts
    ?
    discusses organisational issues
    ?
    reports and records hazards and risks
    ?
    maintains and checks records and documents

  80. Aliice

    Notice it doesnt say
    “knows how to make a nice cup of tea” and “stops for toilet and lunch breaks regularly”

  81. .

    You only do 8 subjects and I think you are listing units of competency, which are not always the same.

  82. H B Bear

    perhaps you do need a university degree to have a child

    I’m not sure I’d get a pass in the prac. I’ve had a few complaints over the years.

  83. .

    HB Bear

    You can always ask for a supplementary exam.

  84. Aliice

    Dot – dont worry

    There is also a conversion course from the retired Cert IV in International Labour Market Emigration, “ILME to EPAO” (say Imlay to E-pow)

    By the time you complete the checklist of your course you can make damn sure some bureacrat got the idea to force everyone to upgrade to the ‘new version” so he gets his “efficiency bonus’ for making a profit off the poor sucker public.

    Its insidious and the only one making any money is big brother. No wonder we want them culled is all I can say.

  85. Aliice

    HB Bear – or an alternative exam. You never know – the second marker may be kinder.

  86. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Comrade dense and red:

    For those who read SF, you may recall the Bene Gesserit idea was to breed and train an expert ruling class.

    This may explain the ALPgreenfilth ‘government’. They tried it and being lefties, completely ballsed it all up. The women for the breeding program were organised by Bobby the Brown-hatter and that Wong chap. This caused internicine war with the ACTU who could not figure out whether they wanted to build a union out of them or employ them kick-starting jumbo jets, thereby lighting the fuse to the socialist collective’s femenazi’s collective tampons. Meanwhile the femenzai’s had selected the ‘men’ with the unfortunate impact of universal selection of eunuchs and other completely scrote-free members of the left-wing establishment. Only Bobby was happy. Milne tried to snag one however her appearance (in the raw) led to an epic of projective vomiting. It was Shagger who saved the day by screwing everything that moved including a passing truck heading for Taronga, its cargo of unusual apes was in reality eleven female mutant genetic rejects from the cannibal tribes of the Congo who had gotten passionate with the local bonobos during a particularly nasty ebola outbreak – and a very surprised driver called Clive.

    The current ALPfront bench (and Slaps herself) are the mutant bastard offspring of Shagger and the truck’s cargo.

    I think this is the most credible explanation for the observed skills of the ALPgreenfilth coalition’s front bench.

    Sure as hell none of the incompetent swine are normal people born of woman.

  87. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    HB Bear

    You can always ask for a supplementary exam.

    Just don’t let Julia’s hairdresser organise it or you’ll get a lot more than you bargained for.

  88. m0nty

    The anti-science tendency of you lot is on full display in this thread. When did you get so fixated against education? It’s a disappointing trend.

  89. boy on a bike

    HB Bear – stop asking for oral exams.

  90. tbh

    Credentialism is not education. Who says education has to happen in a class room anyway. Most technical people, even those with a degree like myself, learned and mastered much of their skill set on the job and not in a class room.

  91. boy on a bike

    So Monty – where is your Bachelor of Sports Betting?

  92. Snoopy

    It’s a disappointing trend.

    A bit like global no-warming.

  93. Jarrah

    TAFE Certificate Whatevers have some insane components. Take Business Admin IV, which has a module called ‘Organise meetings’. How long do you think it would take to learn this skill? TAFE reckons it takes 20 hours. There’s one called ‘Write simple documents’ – 30 hours. Work effectively with diversity – 20 hours. Transfer content to a website using commercial packages – 20 hours. Produce texts from notes (I kid you not) – 30 hours:

    On successful completion of this unit you should have developed the skills and knowledge required to take notes from oral or printed sources to produce accurate text. Specifically you will: Take notes Transcribe notes Edit and revise text.

  94. m0nty

    So Monty – where is your Bachelor of Sports Betting?

    I don’t do betting, boab. In fact, I don’t run gambling content or gambling ads on my site.

    I have a BA in Journalism from RMIT. I am practising journalism, among other things.

  95. Gab

    Keep practising. You’ll get it one day.

  96. Aliice

    Oh for gods sake Monty. You dont live in th real world and never left school obviously. Those who do the work and do it well dont need governments telling them what they should do, and shouldnt need a day or two or or more off each week for a year to get Certs to apply for jobs.

    Monty have a good look around. I am afraid this isnt education. Its blatant interference with the objective of making a buck from people who do work, by government. Its actually racketeering if you want my honest opinion.

    Where is JC to get rid of the Monster?

  97. Aliice

    Jarrah

    On successful completion of this unit you should have developed the skills and knowledge required to take notes from oral or printed sources to produce accurate text. Specifically you will: Take notes Transcribe notes Edit and revise text.

    FFS when did we need to be told how to take notes????

  98. Infidel Tiger

    I have a BA in Journalism from RMIT. I am practising journalism, among other things.

    That is on the gayest things I’ve ever heard.

    No journalist worth a damn ever went near a university journalism course. My God, the credentialism crap is worse than I thought. Couch ridden, internet slobs are now describing themselves as journalists in the belief that it gives them cache!

  99. .

    m0nty
    #901542, posted on June 25, 2013 at 9:21 pm

    The anti-science tendency of you lot is on full display in this thread. When did you get so fixated against education? It’s a disappointing trend.

    Okay. What we actually find so bizzare:

    TAFE Certificate Whatevers have some insane components. Take Business Admin IV, which has a module called ‘Organise meetings’. How long do you think it would take to learn this skill? TAFE reckons it takes 20 hours. There’s one called ‘Write simple documents’ – 30 hours. Work effectively with diversity – 20 hours. Transfer content to a website using commercial packages – 20 hours. Produce texts from notes (I kid you not) – 30 hours:

    On successful completion of this unit you should have developed the skills and knowledge required to take notes from oral or printed sources to produce accurate text. Specifically you will: Take notes Transcribe notes Edit and revise text.

    I think monster has finally lost the plot.

  100. Jarrah

    “I have a BA in Journalism from RMIT.”

    Pfft, a second-rate university 😉

  101. C.L.

    Work effectively with diversity – 20 hours.

    LOL.

  102. Snoopy

    Produce texts from notes (I kid you not) – 30 hours:

    I should’ve done that course! I never learnt to take minutes properly. I can listen and I can write, but I can’t listen and write at the same time.

  103. egg_

    The anti-science tendency of you lot is on full display in this thread.

    Trolling for attention?
    Many of us are Engineers/Scientists/Technologists.

  104. Aliice

    Work effectively with diversity?
    Is that like the childcare provider I know that had to write really long essays on accommodatiing indigenous children – when their population is well nonexistent almost on the Northern beaches and this 60 year old granny who became a kindly childcare provider had never seen an indigineous child let alone got one to mind? Writing about working with diversity when you dont actually work with diversity might be more a little useless.

    Oh I know what you are thinking – one day Granny from the Northern Beaches might move to the Pilbara and it could be useful.

  105. Boambee John

    Monty (901247):

    Actually, Charles Perkins headed Aboriginal Affairs (the Department, not the Minister) once, and several veterans have been Minister for Veterans Affairs.

  106. m0nty

    No journalist worth a damn ever went near a university journalism course.

    You’re stuck in the 1970s, IT. But I could say that in response to everything you say, really.

  107. Aliice

    Monty you really are dreaming – this whole ejacation obession has grown into an interfering Monster (dont take it personally).

  108. m0nty

    Actually, Charles Perkins headed Aboriginal Affairs (the Department, not the Minister) once, and several veterans have been Minister for Veterans Affairs.

    So what’s the point, Boambee John: that only Perkins has ever been a legit head of the department and all the white men were frauds? That’s the implication of Phillipa’s question: that a childless woman shouldn’t head up education because she just doesn’t KNOW how it feels.

  109. m0nty

    Trolling for attention?
    Many of us are Engineers/Scientists/Technologists.

    I’ll take your word for it, egg_. There doesn’t seem to be much respect for science around here. The vibe around here seems to be that kids should finger paint until they’re five or six, despite the overwhelming scientific evidence that early education produces better outcomes.

  110. Infidel Tiger

    You’re stuck in the 1970s, IT. But I could say that in response to everything you say, really

    .

    Apart from music and some great sport, the 70’s was an atrocious decade where much of our current malaise came from.

    I am from much further back in time. Possibly the 1870’s.

  111. egg_

    that a childless woman shouldn’t head up education because she just doesn’t KNOW how it feels.

    Do you know how childbirth feels?

  112. Aliice

    Monty you missed half the conversation, came late, and now misinterpreted the other half you heard and I think everyone else has now decamped. You are not following what we were saying but why does that not surprise me?

  113. Gab

    Monty you missed half the conversation, came late, and now misinterpreted the other half you heard and I think everyone else has now decamped. You are not following what we were saying

    Yep. That’s accurate.

  114. boy on a bike

    OK, how about a Diploma in Fantasy Football?

  115. egg_

    The vibe around here seems to be that kids should finger paint until they’re five or six, despite the overwhelming scientific evidence that early education produces better outcomes.

    My daughter was in the industry (acting centre Director); those with higher qualifications find placements harder to get (i.e. they cost more $), particularly in rural areas; Judith is correct about market distortions and qualifications; it’s likely urbanites pushing the ejumacation agenda, as the bulk of the industry are teenagers doing a CertIII on the job, hence low wages bills.

  116. Gab

    The vibe

    lol How very 1970s.

  117. tbh

    m0nty, I think you’ll find that many of us here value education very highly. Highly enough, in fact, to fork out considerable sums of money from our own pockets (either in private school fees or housing prices in “magnet” school zones) to increase the chances of better outcomes for our kids. We understand very well the value, thanks.

  118. JC

    The vibe around here seems to be that kids should finger paint until they’re five or six, despite the overwhelming scientific evidence that early education produces better outcomes.

    Does it? How so garcon gros.

    Mr Smary, Andrew leight suggested that the several studies he read early childhood dev. helps underprivileged kids, which being American studies would suggest it’s correct. Getting a kid out of a rat infested, crack house would most likely improve prospects.

    How, though does it help say middle class kids as I’ve heard other suggestions, you over-sized, big mouthed douchebage.

  119. JC

    No journalist worth a damn ever went near a university journalism course.

    You’re stuck in the 1970s, IT. But I could say that in response to everything you say, really.

    Garcon gros did. It’s where he went after he flunked 1st year eco0nomics.

    Tell’em, Garcon.

  120. m0nty

    m0nty, I think you’ll find that many of us here value education very highly. Highly enough, in fact, to fork out considerable sums of money from our own pockets (either in private school fees or housing prices in “magnet” school zones) to increase the chances of better outcomes for our kids. We understand very well the value, thanks.

    Oh I see, so you value education for the rich but not so much for the rest. Gotcha, tbh.

  121. tbh

    Oh I see, so you value education for the rich but not so much for the rest. Gotcha, tbh.

    Is that all you’ve got? Keep beating that strawman, Mont.

    Who said anything about being rich? I know plenty of working class families who have made substantial sacrifices to ensure that their kids get a better education (mine was one of them). I’ll bet you any amount of money that other Cats of relatively modest means are doing the same. It’s part of the reason why private schools have increased their proportion of total enrolments over the last couple of generations.

    If the government really cared about equality of opportunity they’d look seriously at independent schools, voucher systems and reduce the size of the education bureaucracy.

  122. Andrew

    Just read Kate Ellis’ speech. Tbh, I was expecting some substance in her speech to back up her contention. I was let down. Just a whole lot of drivel.

  123. dd

    Oh I see, so you value education for the rich but not so much for the rest. Gotcha, tbh.

    I don’t value the type of education where workers are forced to “educate” themselves about their job, just so they can do the job. These jobs all worked fine before Cert II, III, and IV. These credentials are solutions for non-existent problems.

    And now of course it’s going to be impossible to unwind them because the industries have been taken over by the credentialled vested interests, who will scream and wail that their monopoly on the job market has been broken. (although it was only created in the first place by unnecessary government mandate)

  124. brc

    it’s likely urbanites pushing the ejumacation agenda, as the bulk of the industry are teenagers doing a CertIII on the job, hence low wages bills.

    Nitpick: the low wages are a function of the supply of people who will take childcare jobs. The number of degrees one has, has no bearing on the wage level. It is the value of the job to the employer that sets the wage level, not the number of pieces of paper. Higher paid jobs naturally attract those with qualifications because the employer can be choosy about the best person to do the job. But the reverse is not true – having more pieces of paper does not automatically grant someone higher wages.

  125. wreckage

    What’s your point, Philippa?

    Could non-parents stop telling parents what they should want, please?

    Oh I see, so you value education for the rich but not so much for the rest. Gotcha, tbh.

    Forcing someone to study for 3-4 years, with lost wages the whole time, and a HECS debt after, to do a job they were perfectly and completely endowed to do from the outset just due to their own character and personality, is a cruel, ridiculous mockery.

    Education is nice. Chocolate is nice. Being force-fed either for four years straight is fucking horrible. Listen, get a clue; for some people the educations system is at best a boring chore, at worst an erosive and destructive prison. The fucking idiots who I only pray misrepresent the Left on this site are all about diversity as long as no-one is different, non-conformity as long as everyone is stuffed in the same beige box for life, and freedom as long as everyone chooses The Right Thing. You pricks are all for manufacturing jobs – WHY? If basic jobs at basic wages are such a fucking affront to human dignity?

    You’re a bunch of white-collar, over-educated prattling urban nancies who can’t even fucking imagine what it’s like to be the kid with ADD, Aspergers, or just an aversion to aseptic enclosures where experts force-feed you Betterment. All of you, seriously, fuck off.

  126. m0nty

    You’re a bunch of white-collar, over-educated prattling urban nancies who can’t even fucking imagine what it’s like to be the kid with ADD, Aspergers, or just an aversion to aseptic enclosures where experts force-feed you Betterment. All of you, seriously, fuck off.

    So you think, wreckage, that any schmoe off the street is capable of handling an ADD or Aspbergers kid? Doesn’t that require extra training?

    The anger towards education here is hard to fathom. dd’s points above about child care previously working without credentials long ago ignores the advancements in understanding education in decades since. Why are you all so against giving kids a healthy start in life? It is most curious.

  127. Steve of Glasshouse

    Good news ….The ever thorough ALP dirt unit has been going through Judith’s and Tony’s family trees and there is absolutely no connection between them, even down to the primordial swamp level.
    The dirt unit was devastated I hear. Best they could come up with was that they live on the same planet, so they can still technically run an Abbott Abbott line..

  128. .

    The anger towards education here is hard to fathom.

    You are such a dishonest turd monty.

    Leigh pointed out that the American stuff was basically taking kids out of bad homes. The TED talk someone else produced noted the benefits werre greatest to those who as adults…moved interstate!

    Are you really going to say this is because they were unsuccessfully taught like primary school kids 13-20+ years prior?

    A cert II in water management isn’t education you fuckwit, read the bloody course descriptors. It is an affront to people who are not bloodywell retarded.

    Places with better educational outcomes either cheat on test scores and treat kids like chattels or they have less structured learning and curricula.

    If they choose to tack on a vanity item like early childhood education, it is not a putative cause of their success.

  129. Tel

    The anger towards education here is hard to fathom.

    The anger is toward centrally planned indoctrination, and protected industries that allow the anointed to get involved.

    If you want to see the effects on letting government central planners loose on kids, read any of Christopher Booker’s articles about what is happening in the UK… families destroyed, young mothers being arrested for job sharing, it’s beyond the pale. Horrifying stuff.

    Sure it hasn’t happened here, yet. No particular reason why it won’t happen here.

  130. Tel

    You’re a bunch of white-collar, over-educated prattling urban nancies who can’t even fucking imagine what it’s like to be the kid with ADD…

    The really amazing thing is how much got achieved before ADD was even invented. All those centuries of human development where people managed to bring up kids and get an education, with no central planner telling them how to do that. Astounding!

    Why are you all so against giving kids a healthy start in life?

    Go and do what I said, read Christopher Booker’s documentation of what happens to real kids under a centrally planned system… now come back and talk about “healthy start in life”. In the US, the more government has gotten itself involved in education, the worse the results.

  131. wreckage

    So you think, wreckage, that any schmoe off the street is capable of handling an ADD or Aspbergers kid? Doesn’t that require extra training?

    It requires some on the job training. It doesn’t require a degree. And you’ve missed the point, again.

    Why are you all so against giving kids a healthy start in life? It is most curious.

    Don’t let a sense of intellectual integrity stop you from begging the question.

  132. John Mc

    So you think, wreckage, that any schmoe off the street is capable of handling an ADD or Aspbergers kid?

    The current approach is a failure with Aspergers kids and having more of that type of regulation is only going to make things worse. And as has been said before, the parents, family members and friends who mind that kid don’t have any training.

    Why are you all so against giving kids a healthy start in life? It is most curious.

    It’s not even slightly curious. We’re the ones advocating for workable approaches to give kids a healthy start in life. You’re advocating for a sheltered workshop for overpaid adults with pseudo qualifications which would not function without government subsidy because the parents of the kids wouldn’t have it that way if they had a choice.

    Besides, we both know having a degree qualified person in a childcare centre does nothing for the children who are there. They (e.g. the Aspergers kids you mentioned) are still supervised by the $22/hr staff member who was employed to be first contact with the kids. The person with the ‘degree’ is completely irrelevant – although they demand the higher wages, because apparently they’re ‘professionals’ now – while the attitude of the person in constant contact with the kids is everything. But they can’t negotiate with the parents for higher pay, even though the parents would be happy to pay extra for the right person, because they’re just the ‘workers’.

  133. .

    But they can’t negotiate with the parents for higher pay, even though the parents would be happy to pay extra for the right person, because they’re just the ‘workers’.

    …and rewarding people for effort or performance is “wrong”.

  134. Aliice

    Wreckage says

    Forcing someone to study for 3-4 years, with lost wages the whole time, and a HECS debt after, to do a job they were perfectly and completely endowed to do from the outset just due to their own character and personality, is a cruel, ridiculous mockery.

    Its ia cruel mockery that we are inflicting on far too many of our youth in the name of ejacation which is really masking an insidious complete removal of job pathways outside uni for youth (and attempts by the government to steal from them by raising course fees everywhere and indebt so many of our youth in the name of a whopping big ATO receivable). Nursing gone to uni. Police gone to uni. Ambos gone to uni. Pool cleaners going to tafe. Planters nursery workers going to tafe.

    Its a freaking disgrace Monty only you are too stupid to see it. Plus its insidious and damaging to the experience of our youth who in many courses are learning absolute tripe at uni and regurgitating absolute tripe at a cost to them over over $1000 a subject (multiply by five or 6 every semester and then mutiply that by three or four years and then add the 3 years lost income opportunity cost multiply that total debt by the cpi every year and you may in the dimmer recesses of your tiny brain start to see a light flick on about the financial burden to so many families of this ejacation impost).

  135. Aliice

    Monty rants on in typical mindless unuestioning fashion about the “benefits of education to the workforce”. Shame the educated workforce come out as dumb rocks after floating around campuses for absolutely years because they have had their brains addled and have never even switched on the photocopier or logged in to a computer in a real work environment (also only to find out employers want cert 2 from Tafe because they have no experience – there is a major disconnect going on in unis with what is useful and what employers want).
    Plus the latest is that unis are flogging cheap (no free) internships around town on the premise that “our students get work experience on their CVs). Helpful? Not. Some employers are getting used to running their businesses on free intern rotating labour. Brilliant idea that one. Downgrade wages at the same time you profess to be educating students. It was never the unis role to meddle in private job markets hawking cheap (no free) students to employers. Id like to know what the uni gets out of that and you can bet it comes with a dollar sign – not to the student but to the unis.

  136. Aliice

    Its not about the students. Its all about the hecs.

  137. Aliice

    And Monty

    Of course kids should finger paint till they are five or six and make mud pies and build cubby houses and climb trees and aim sling shots at people like you.

    Thats what kids should be doing until they go to school. They dont need centralised socially engineered planned experimential betterment.

  138. crocodile

    The anger towards education here is hard to fathom. dd’s points above about child care previously working without credentials long ago ignores the advancements in understanding education in decades since. Why are you all so against giving kids a healthy start in life? It is most curious.

    .

    It’s all about the price.

  139. m0nty

    The anger is toward centrally planned indoctrination, and protected industries that allow the anointed to get involved.

    Well that’s just silly. Three year olds are not being indoctrinated into Stalinism. When you say “protected industries” you’re really talking about unionism, aren’t you? You just hate unions Tel, that’s all.

    Go and do what I said, read Christopher Booker’s documentation of what happens to real kids under a centrally planned system

    This is the same Christopher Booker who believes there is no danger to passive smoking, asbestos or mad cow disease, and argues against evolution. Not exactly a friend of science.

  140. m0nty

    It requires some on the job training. It doesn’t require a degree.

    Really, wreckage? Caring for ADD and Aspbergers kids requires no credentials at all? You can get any oik off the street to do it as effectively as a health care professional?

    It is amazing, this denial of basic science. You lot have painted yourselves into such a corner. I trust you will all be happy in your nursing homes with high school drop outs caring for your every need. Enjoy those kerosene baths.

  141. m0nty

    Besides, we both know having a degree qualified person in a childcare centre does nothing for the children who are there. They (e.g. the Aspergers kids you mentioned) are still supervised by the $22/hr staff member who was employed to be first contact with the kids. The person with the ‘degree’ is completely irrelevant – although they demand the higher wages, because apparently they’re ‘professionals’ now – while the attitude of the person in constant contact with the kids is everything. But they can’t negotiate with the parents for higher pay, even though the parents would be happy to pay extra for the right person, because they’re just the ‘workers’.

    LOL, John Mc thinks training is irrelevant, it’s all about the ‘tude. Science is nothing, ‘tude is everything!

    The right: dumbing down everything.

  142. John Mc

    You can get any oik off the street to do it as effectively as a health care professional?

    Sometimes better. Depends on the person.

  143. Infidel Tiger

    Might be time to restrict monty’s comments. The cheese has slipped off his cracker.

  144. John Mc

    I trust you will all be happy in your nursing homes with high school drop outs caring for your every need.

    If you had your way, nationalised nursing home entry would be compulsory for everyone at a certain age in the name of ‘equality’. All the staff would have degrees, the care would be standardised across everyone, and all the inmates would live like shit.

    But at least the staff would have degrees and high (subsidised) wages.

  145. .

    LOL, John Mc thinks training is irrelevant, it’s all about the ‘tude. Science is nothing, ‘tude is everything!

    The right: dumbing down everything.

    What “science” do B Ed Early Childhood or Cert II Water Management grads learn I can’t learn by passing year 7 at high school, or by finding the information online?

    Really monty, you’ve called pre school teachers scientists now.

    On par with particle phsyicists and computer hardware engineers.

    You will say anything to defend this absurd union attempt of infiltrating another industry.

  146. m0nty

    Okay, I’m going to give you lot a break. You can’t be so brazenly stupid as to hate science for its own sake, so I’m going to assume you’re not all dumb as a post.

    What you’re really getting at is that you hate unions, you hate regulation and you hate equality. You would prefer that most child care workers were uneducated oafs on minimum wage, paid as much as babysitters with about as many skills and with no collective bargaining power. You don’t like rules about how educated child care workers have to be, because you’d prefer that most of them weren’t educated at all. But most of all, you want the prior two to apply to other people’s children, because for your own children you’d rather pay extra to actually get the benefits of decades of child education research.

    Your entire world view on early child education comes from the film Mary Poppins. Child care workers are magical beings, flying in through the power of their umbrellas to act pretty much the same as Victorian era governesses to the landed gentry, but now somehow affordable to upper middle class people such as your good selves. Dusty old Dick van Dyke loves her, though of course she would never deign to visit his scruffy po-boys to give them some sugar.

    This position is understandable, but self-serving and transparent. I hope this is more the case than what you’ve actually been pushing, which is neo-Luddism at its most destructive.

  147. John Mc

    LOL, John Mc thinks training is irrelevant, it’s all about the ‘tude. Science is nothing, ‘tude is everything

    Did you read my comment, lard-arse? The people with degrees are removed from the experience of the children; that’s apparently their privilege of having the degree. They are above the $22/hr workers.

    The $22/hr workers are the ones who affect the quality of life of the children. The people with the degree are far, far from someone like an engineer who oversees a design of something and takes legal culpability for it. In fact, if you need that kind of help for your child you call in correctly qualified early-learning and healthcare professionals to develop a program for your child.

    BTW, my experience is based on trying to use childcare to socialise my autistic son. What’s your’s based on you retarded sack of shit?

  148. .

    Caring for ADD and Aspbergers kids requires no credentials at all?

    That is correct.

    It is amazing, this denial of basic science.

    Indeed. Let’s take the children off good parents and give them to government, because you can find a study that asserts that only university trained “experts” can raise kids with aspergers or ADD. Let’s subsidise bad parents with childcare for all but refuse to take their kids off them ‘da dignity, da equality’.

    You lot have painted yourselves into such a corner. I trust you will all be happy in your nursing homes with high school drop outs caring for your every need. Enjoy those kerosene baths.

    You are just pointing out out how dumbed down “education” has become. You can drop out of high school and become an RN.

    The baths were banned a long time ago.

    You are peddling utter nonsense and hysterical crap to assert that disagreeing with you about the value of training all nurses at uni or having a degree to have children, means that we feverently support a discarded healthcare practice.

    You are a fanatical, desperate, low rent grub with dangerous and foolish ideas.

  149. John Mc

    LOL, John Mc thinks training is irrelevant, it’s all about the ‘tude. Science is nothing, ‘tude is everything

    Fuck you are repulsive. What are you saying? Attitude is nothing, it’s the ‘degree’ that makes you good?

  150. m0nty

    The $22/hr workers are the ones who affect the quality of life of the children. The people with the degree are far, far from someone like an engineer who oversees a design of something and takes legal culpability for it. In fact, if you need that kind of help for your child you call in correctly qualified early-learning and healthcare professionals to develop a program for your child.

    BTW, my experience is based on trying to use childcare to socialise my autistic son.

    Alright John Mc, what’s your better solution? Who is the sort of person who should be caring for a special needs child?

  151. John Mc

    Monty, let’s be honest here: you are trying to use socialism to make up for your own inadequacies that you refuse to address.

    You don’t like the fact that markets work because you are too lazy to make the effort for yourself and you see this as an easy way to level the playing field. You don’t want people to be able to make other choices, because that makes you feel bad about the choices you have made.

    You like people with psuedo qualifications because you’re not completely dumb as dogshit it makes you feel like you are somehow superior. You don’t like salt-of-the-earth people because they remind you of your own inadequacies and what you could be if you stopped shoving chips in your gob and made an effort.

    You don’t want diversity of opinion, thought or what not, because you crave the security of familiarity. You don’t like hard workers because you feel they diminish your status. You don’t like individualists because you measure yourself through other people’s eyes and it ain’t pretty.

  152. John Mc

    Who is the sort of person who should be caring for a special needs child?

    Without question, utterly undeniably, 100%, the best people to get the most out of a special needs child and allow them to develop to their potential are a committed family. I know fate means not everyone can have this, but government in their eagerness to provide support through law must acknowledge this.

    Unfortunately, stuff like childcare (the ADF, the tax system, the justice system, labour market regulation) is seen as a means of social engineering first and foremost, rather than really providing for the needs of people the program or department uses to justify it’s existence.

    More to follow below:

  153. .

    Okay, I’m going to give you lot a break. You can’t be so brazenly stupid as to hate science for its own sake, so I’m going to assume you’re not all dumb as a post.

    You’re a disgusting shit of a liar. I gave money to the Kirby Institute this year. Fuck off.

    What you’re really getting at is that you hate unions, you hate regulation and you hate equality.

    No. We hate the influence unions demand, pointless regulation and equality of what? You imbecile.

    You would prefer that most child care workers were uneducated oafs on minimum wage, paid as much as babysitters with about as many skills and with no collective bargaining power.

    Childcare workers don’t need an education. They can charge whatever price they damned well please.

    I’ve got an idea monty. Everyone who doesn’t vote for the ALP at the next election should have collective bargaining power with those who voted for the ALP, who only get to bargain as individuals.

    You don’t like rules about how educated child care workers have to be

    Correct, please collect a prize.

    because you’d prefer that most of them weren’t educated at all.

    They can be educated as they fucking well pelease. Why should we subsidise their leisure preference?

    But most of all, you want the prior two to apply to other people’s children, because for your own children you’d rather pay extra to actually get the benefits of decades of child education research.

    No. I want people to choose. You are lying monty, by saying that we want choice, we are imposing on others.

    You brain dead fuckwit. It is undeniable that you are lying because no one is trying to free ride, as you accuse them of.

    “Decades of research”

    Guess what dickhead, there is a Marxist Journal of Economics. What utility do you think it has?

    If the Government commissioned a report making 2-5 year old education compulsory, would that be justified?

    You tin eared moron.

    Your entire world view on early child education comes from the film Mary Poppins. Child care workers are magical beings, flying in through the power of their umbrellas to act pretty much the same as Victorian era governesses to the landed gentry, but now somehow affordable to upper middle class people such as your good selves. Dusty old Dick van Dyke loves her, though of course she would never deign to visit his scruffy po-boys to give them some sugar.

    Says the guy who defends the level of taxation we have which forces both parents to work, and who is pushing for more occupational licensing.

    No wonder you couldn’t cut it in the real world with economics (failure) and had to get your joke of a journalism degree, which you market plagiarised material with to earn a living and have blown up a company or two here or there..

    I hope this is more the case than what you’ve actually been pushing, which is neo-Luddism at its most destructive.

    Refusing to have kids looked after by childless early childhood teachers is anti technology!

    You mealy mouthed fuckwit. Stop telling everyone else how to look after their own children in the name of “science”, you hysterical ALP suckhole.

  154. John Mc

    I could tell you much more about the whole autism and childcare thing. My wife was caring full time for our children, we didn’t want childcare, but we thought maybe a couple of days a week could be good for the socialisation of our autistic son. We didn’t know anything about childcare centres and we hadn’t really researched them, but we chose a popular one which was quite high profile, in prominent spot (more than one branch actually), had lots of customers and not visually dirt cheap, and we can say it turned out to confirm the world that people like you want to bring upon the rest of us. It’s not all that easy to change childcare centres (although we did eventually) but our solution was for my wife to get a job there for the days our son was in care. She started in the reception, but when necessary looked after kids, but she ended up being the cook because it was the only way to get decent food served in hygienic circumstances was to do it herself. We’re talking a large centre here.

    Not that long after we were given a formal diagnosis for the autism which linked us into another network and we were able to link into other people like ourselves. I encouraged my wife to keep a book on everything she saw from the filthy kitchen, the quality of the food, kids sitting in their own shit for hours until 30min before their parents arrived, the indifference of the management (i.e. your childcare ‘professionals’ you reckon will fix everything) but she was just happy to move on.

  155. m0nty

    Right, so Dot and John Mc agree: the real problem is women working, instead of being in the nursery where they belong.

    I acknowledge your frustration, John Mc, but you live in the modern world where women have the vote and the power to define themselves in roles other than just “mother”. That genie ain’t going back in the bottle.

  156. m0nty

    John Mc: I was hasty in lumping you in with Dot. I apologise.

  157. .

    Right, so Dot and John Mc agree: the real problem is women working, instead of being in the nursery where they belong.

    The problem, you malodours fuckwit, is that couples can’t afford to have either partner stay at home.

    This is because of taxes. The taxe rate on building a new dwelling in NSW, since 2003, has been over 70%.

    Women can do whatever the fuck they want to do.

    Your solution for ‘da equality’ is to make ‘the nursery’ instituionalised and Government regulated?

    Absolutely pointless. If a woman has high earning power, she won’t stay at home, unless it is her choice.

    If a woman has low earning power…then it makes sense for her to stay at home.

    It isn’t inequitable, much in the same way that Miranda Kerr and Lara Bingle are more attractive than most women.

    Maybe we ought to offer plastic surgery to ugly people, in the name of ‘da equlity’?

    You lunatic.

    I acknowledge your frustration, John Mc, but you live in the modern world where women have the vote and the power to define themselves in roles other than just “mother”.

    What has this got to do with ‘da science’ of having over educated babysitters work for them?

  158. John Mc

    BTW, my wife is currently a PA for a local businessman with a daughter with cerebral palsy and she tends to her needs by booking her into her care, schooling and so forth, organising transport and more or less being the nurse as well from time to time.

    She has no qualifications in this area and wants to rejoin the public service (we like lots of easy benefits, leave and all that sort of stuff as well, y’know.). Her boss doesn’t want her to go and is trying to entice her to stay obviously because he doesn’t think he’ll be able to find a PA who can also do this stuff for his daughter when he gets into a tight spot which will happen with his work. Some people have a natural aptitude for this stuff and could make a good living working as a nanny if they chose, probably better than your degree qualified childcare people if they chose (I understand this doesn’t address the care of poor disabled people who don’t get nannies, that’s not the point I’m making.)

  159. John Mc

    I acknowledge your frustration, John Mc, but you live in the modern world where women have the vote and the power to define themselves in roles other than just “mother”. That genie ain’t going back in the bottle.

    Nice try but yet another fail. I think women, in fact everyone, should pursue exactly the lifestyle they want so long as they are willing to take responsibility for their choices. I don’t think you could say the same.

    What you don’t acknowledge is that some women want to raise families as the significant activity in a phase of their lives. They don’t all confirm to your view of what women should be.

  160. m0nty

    John Mc, you both still have a choice. You could accept lower living standards and have your wife (or you) not work. All nuclear families have this choice.

    Regulated child care is for those who make a certain choice. It sounds like you copped a poor provider, which is an example of regulations not being enforced, but the conclusion should not be that regulation is unnecessary.

  161. .

    You could accept lower living standards and have your wife (or you) not work.

    monty you have a choice too, youcould admit that the costs reducing our living standards are due to tax (the rate being 70%+ on new dwellings), or you can keep on lying.

    “If the service was poor, the regulations were ignored”

    No, the regulations are a putative cause to poor service as their labour pool is limited.

  162. m0nty

    You have a choice Dot, you can choose to stop verballing. But you’re not pro-choice on that one.

  163. John Mc

    John Mc, you both still have a choice. You could accept lower living standards and have your wife (or you) not work. All nuclear families have this choice

    We have. We’ve optimised that choice within the constraints of our higher-level choices. My wife didn’t work for the formative years and now works in a lower pressure job. She may change that as the boys get more independent.

    Regulated child care is for those who make a certain choice.

    Sure, that’s fine. As long as people like me aren’t denied other childcare options that would be readily available to us, except for people like you trying to destroy them through your particular brand of regulation.

    You want to have your kid in a childcare centre like the one I described above, and spend your time squealing for more regulations and tougher enforcement while your kid lives like shit because your system is structurally flawed, is entirely up to you. I feel sad for your kid but hopefully as an adult he can realise what a sack of crap you are and move on.

    Just pay for it yourself and leave the rest of us alone to make better choices.

  164. Huckleberry Chunkwot

    I feel sad for your kid

    FYI John Mc, m0nty is a virgin.
    He is as likely to need childcare as the Pope.

  165. m0nty

    Sure, that’s fine. As long as people like me aren’t denied other childcare options that would be readily available to us, except for people like you trying to destroy them through your particular brand of regulation.

    What exactly is being destroyed? You can still hire some year 10 drop out to babysit your kid until puberty.

  166. Huckleberry Chunkwot

    m0nty, can you please get back to the open thread and answer my question about the footy. That is far more important.

  167. John Mc

    The choice of using a childcare centre run by someone we know who is great with kids and works with people they like, but doesn’t have a degree, but does have the trust of the parents. At a location of their choosing and a rate we both agree on.

    i.e. the way it’s worked just fine for who knows how long, and would be happening much more if it wasn’t for social engineering.

  168. m0nty

    The choice of using a childcare centre run by someone we know who is great with kids and works with people they like, but doesn’t have a degree, but does have the trust of the parents. At a location of their choosing and a rate we both agree on.

    i.e. the way it’s worked just fine for who knows how long, and would be happening much more if it wasn’t for social engineering.

    If all you want is babysitting, what’s stopping your hypothetical friend doing that?

  169. John Mc

    Tell me fatboy, do you believe someone with five or ten kids in their home every working day for an agreed daily sum, while doing a good job over a long time, should be left alone by the government to get on with their lives?

  170. Thew value of the work done in child care centres all over this country in one hour is far greater than what is done by the Masters of the Universe in the city in a year.

  171. .

    Thew value of the work done in child care centres all over this country in one hour is far greater than what is done by the Masters of the Universe in the city in a year.

    Sanctimonious bullshit.

    There is nothing wrong with working in childcare or in finance.

    You have however sledged all non degree qualified workers in childcare as deadshits, whilst banging on about outcomes and quality outcomes whilst at the same time declaring their work to be invaluable.

    You’re clearly full of crap.

    The workers in the city fund things like the childcare subsidy. Don’t kill the goose.

  172. value of the work done in child care centres all over this country in one hour is far greater than what is done by the Masters of the Universe in the city in a year.
    You have however sledged all non degree qualified workers in childcare as deadshits
    See what you did there?
    You claimed I said exactly the opposite of what is actually posted.
    I’m not sure whether you can’t read, can’t comprehend, or are simply so one-eyed that you lack any real reasoning capacity.

  173. m0nty

    Tell me fatboy, do you believe someone with five or ten kids in their home every working day for an agreed daily sum, while doing a good job over a long time, should be left alone by the government to get on with their lives?

    Leave out the insults please, John. I have shown you respect.

    If your hypothetical carer makes a business out of it, she comes under relevant business regulations like anyone else. Why should this person be a special case?

  174. John Mc

    If it’s exactly as I described it, is it a business or baby sitting? Why should it be treated differently to baby sitting? Should she forced to employ someone with a degree or shut down?

  175. .

    You claimed I said exactly the opposite of what is actually posted.

    No numbers. I put your statements together. They are your words, live with them.

    I respected you, now, what you are saying is hypothetical and a lie.

    You are a pathetic lunatic monty, you will never have kids, stop shilling for union featherbedding.

  176. m0nty

    I guess babysitting is generally only for one family, maybe two at a pinch. If you have kids from six families there, and you’re getting paid by all of them, it’s a business by that point and comes under OH&S laws.

  177. John Mc

    As for the insults, let’s not forget that you want to force your opinions on others, meddle in their lives and steal their money, while acting surprised when others object. Your like a rapist claiming they deserve to be treated with more respect.

  178. John Mc

    I guess babysitting is generally only for one family, maybe two at a pinch. If you have kids from six families there, and you’re getting paid by all of them, it’s a business by that point and comes under OH&S laws

    Then stop trying to obfuscate and own your opinion: you believe this woman should be shut down.

    You believe it is worth sacrificing civil society to the supreme rule of the state, and individuals should learn to expect worse outcomes and lower living standards in the name of ‘equality’ and state intervention.

    You are a filthy rule-by-force socialist who aspires to lower humanity to the lowest common denominator. There is no reason anyone should refrain from insulting you. No one is threatening you with violence. You really are a blight on society.

  179. egg_

    You can’t be so brazenly stupid as to hate science for its own sake

    Science or Natural Philosophy?

    I think you’ll find the hierarchy as:
    Logic
    Mathematics
    Science

    Leftists usually have trouble at the port of call…

  180. boy on a bike

    We’ve organised group baby sitting on numerous occasions. Parents agree to go to dinner at a local restaurant. Kids all get dropped off at one house. Babysitting looks after 6 kids for the night. Parents split the bill.

    Is that now a business that needs regulating to death?

  181. Gab

    It will be soon, BOAB. Give them time.

  182. m0nty

    John Mc, you are creating a straw man. I believe that early childhood care by trained professionals is superior to untrained babysitting, in that it produces smarter and better socialised children who are more able to cope with a changing world. In this, I trust in decades of research by experts in their field.

    I don’t know quite how the right of politics have come to this point, where they repudiate entire scientific disciplines for no logical reason. I can only surmise that this cancer has developed over decades, where lobbyists in business have seen it to be in their interest to challenge science where it intersects with their profit motive, and the more mercantile elements of the right have fallen in line. Tobacco, asbestos, the ozone layer, oil spills, climate change: a roll call of shameful anti-science denial.

  183. John Mc

    Monty, that’s just more obfuscation, rather than getting to the point. I’m happy for you to make choices based on your interpretation and selection of current scientific studies, just stop trying to force them on others. Others feel differently, and unless there is some evidence of child abuse or gross negligence, people like you should just f*ck off.

    My kids are just fine. I believe part of the success of my kids – remembering, one of them is autistic, admittedly, probably high functioning autistic – is avoiding state intervention wherever possible i.e. relying on personal efforts and family arrangements, civil society, private schooling, personal selection of health professionals and generally keeping away from ‘do-gooders’.

    My kids will grow up to be independent, self-sufficient, proud and capable. And even if one doesn’t quite make that point, I have as much chance, if not more, of getting him to that state than anything you would force upon me through government.

  184. Gab

    Shut up, John. You’re just a parent. monty doesn’t have kids so he knows what’s best for you.

  185. John Mc

    I think the fat f*ck does have a kid. It makes you wonder about that relationship, or how he sees his responsibilities as a parent. Generally people are changed for the better by the experience of parenting.

    Care to clarify if you have kids, Monty?

  186. You have however sledged all non degree qualified workers in childcare as deadshits
    No – that’s what you said.
    Sure you weren’t a Queensland copper in the eighties?
    You have a bad habit of verballing anyone who disagrees with you.

  187. candy

    Monty, with all due respect, unless you’ve raised a child or been a caregiver for a close relative’s child who you love, you may be considered by some to be talking through your hat!

  188. m0nty

    Monty, with all due respect, unless you’ve raised a child or been a caregiver for a close relative’s child who you love, you may be considered by some to be talking through your hat!

    So you’re attacking my experiential credentials for defending scientific credentials? Either you’re for credentials or you’re not, candy. Choose one.

  189. boy on a bike

    I believe that early childhood care by trained professionals is superior to untrained babysitting, in that it produces smarter and better socialised children who are more able to cope with a changing world. In this, I trust in decades of research by experts in their field.

    As someone that has real world experience of putting the kids into:

    – family day care with untrained staff
    – montessori day care with trained staff
    – expensive, day care with trained staff

    I call bullshit. 1 & 3 have been excellent. 2 was rubbish – due to very poor management, poor facilities (yet it wasn’t cheap) and unmotivated staff.

    1 & 3 were very good due to good management (1 had only 1 emplyee – herself), good facilities and very motivated staff.

    The number of bits of paper possessed by the staff had nothing to do with the outcomes that I care about AS THE PARENT.

    Frankly Monty, I don’t give a flying fuck what you think is good for my kids. They’re mine. Get your mitts off them. You want to mess with kids, go grown your own.

  190. .

    Tobacco, asbestos, the ozone layer, oil spills, climate change: a roll call of shameful anti-science denial.

    Wrong.

    1. Lefties do not admit that tobacco has any benefits (on top of its heavy toll of costs), it does. Denial.
    2. The Romans knew asbestos was dangerous, fibreglass can be just as dangerous. Strawman.
    3. Ozone layer breakdown on the pole cools the globe and disperses elsewhere. The causant chemicals are now superseded anyway. We should be worried about a non problem that has resolved now and isn’t likely to happen again?
    4. The damage from oil spills has been overstated. Check the catch profiles near the Exxon spill. Oil slicks are also created without human intervention.
    5. Climate change: recent Australian metre review shows that sea level rise by 2100 from 2000 will be 17 cm. Who cares?

    Lies, denial, half truths and obfuscation.

    You have no merit in being “pro science” given that you are inummerate.

    From this screed, monty deduces that Government run, accredited and trained childcare is the best for everyone.

    Piss off monty. You are the Walter Mittie of dictators.

  191. .

    Sure you weren’t a Queensland copper in the eighties?
    You have a bad habit of verballing anyone who disagrees with you.

    What a marvellous blend of blinding hypocriscy and stupidity. Because we need to teach four year olds how to read, before they are taught how to read.

  192. m0nty

    Monty, that’s just more obfuscation, rather than getting to the point. I’m happy for you to make choices based on your interpretation and selection of current scientific studies, just stop trying to force them on others. Others feel differently, and unless there is some evidence of child abuse or gross negligence, people like you should just f*ck off.

    I find it peculiar that you had such a bad experience of lax regulation at a child care centre and came out of it thinking that the solution was less regulation, John. Was it one of those ABC Learning places? That disaster is an example of the sort of unregulated environment you’re asking for.

    No, I don’t have a child.

  193. .

    I find it peculiar that you had such a bad experience of lax regulation at a child care centre and came out of it thinking that the solution was less regulation, John.

    You are the kind of idiot that thinks customer service can be taught in a TAFE package.

    QED. Carry on rewardless.

  194. m0nty

    You have no merit in being “pro science” given that you are inummerate.

    LOL DOT, at least I can spell “innumerate”.

  195. you are inummerate.
    You are illiterate.
    Lefties do not admit that tobacco has any benefits
    Probably certifiable as well.

  196. .

    That disaster is an example of the sort of unregulated environment you’re asking for.

    They were unregulated were they? Perhaps you’d like to tell us what regulations other places had, and why ABC was exempt, you stupid, dishonest shit?

  197. irving J

    You want to mess with kids, go grown your own.

    At least now with modern technology like eharmony, even someone like monty can get a root. Modern capitalism never ceases to amaze…

  198. .

    I mis type a word and this means you are numerate all of the sudden?

    Whatever.

    Linking to a UN report means nicotine has no pharmalogical benefits?

    You guys are utterly and revoltingly dumb, brainwashed zombies.

  199. m0nty

    pharmalogical

    That would be “pharmacological”, Dot.

    You would have benefited from better early childhood learning, evidently.

  200. .

    I don’t know quite how the right of politics have come to this point, where they repudiate entire scientific disciplines for no logical reason.

    This is demonstrably a lie.

    There is no net benefit in teaching most 4 year olds like primary school kids.

    Your sick agenda is to bring them into Gillard’s biased, socialist, anti scientific and ahistorical national curricula at a young age.

  201. John Mc

    I find it peculiar that you had such a bad experience of lax regulation at a child care centre and came out of it thinking that the solution was less regulation, John.

    Do you think more regulation is going to fix the drug problem in our society? Every new regulatory approach is almost certainly making the situation worse. Regulation can only do so much and we are way past that point.

    The only things regulation and government brings to the equation that wasn’t there already are another form of compulsion and coercion through a different application of force. There is a very limited scope of small but very important areas where this adds value to civil society. Beyond that it adds very little value but often ends up costing a lot or doing a lot of damage.

  202. .

    FFS monty if all you have got today is typos, please give up.

  203. irving J

    LOL DOT, at least I can spell “innumerate”.

    That’s only because you use google chrome’s auto spell checking.

  204. .

    Third parties:

    Christ this monty is a dumb cnut.

    He can’t park a car, can’t use a pair of chopsticks without hurting himself, can’t get a root without e Harmony and can’t pass economics 101, can’t run a company without blowing it up, can’t lose weight, but boy can he pick up on a spelling mistake someone else makes when he checks it in Word or Firefox!

    A pygmy standing on the back of intellectual giants and giving them chiropractic problems.

  205. m0nty

    There is no net benefit in teaching most 4 year olds like primary school kids.

    Are you a father, Dot? How would you know?

    Your sick agenda is to bring them into Gillard’s biased, socialist, anti scientific and ahistorical national curricula at a young age.

    You are merely flailing at this point.

    Third parties:

    LOL, Dot is reduced to whining to mummy because he got a boo-boo on his finger. Take it like a man.

  206. .

    Take it like a man, and educate your kids, which I will never have, as I say so!

    No, fuck off.

  207. .

    LOL, Dot is reduced to whining to mummy because he got a boo-boo on his finger. Take it like a man.

    This guys thinks he can be condescending?

    No way.

    Christ this monty is a dumb cnut.

    He can’t park a car, can’t use a pair of chopsticks without hurting himself, can’t get a root without e Harmony and can’t pass economics 101, can’t run a company without blowing it up, can’t lose weight, but boy can he pick up on a spelling mistake someone else makes when he checks it in Word or Firefox!

  208. Why do you lot talk to Monty? You know he’s only here to derail.

  209. wreckage

    He’s certainly here to engage in a very strange form of role-play wherein he says “Science!” a lot, in his best wizard voice.

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