Freedom of Association is important

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85 Responses to Freedom of Association is important

  1. cohenite

    The bikie gangs are really the vanguard of Islamist values. So, while I can see where Tim Wilson is coming from I think it is a mistake to assume you are dealing with conventional criminals on this occasion; these criminals want to replace the social and legal structure.

    The real issue is therefore how much should an individual rights based Western democracy infringe on those rights to combat a concerted effort by Islam, which is not based on individual rights and freedoms, to replace those rights and freedoms with its own oppressive values?

  2. A Lurker

    I don’t believe regular motorbike riders belonging to social clubs like Ulysses are being targeted.

    I do believe that outlaw motorcycle gangs should be targeted – because their malign influence extends into society in general

    There is Freedom of Association, and then there is Freedom for ordinary citizens to go about their daily lives untroubled by all of the above. If criminal bikers cool their heels indefinitely in jail so that the rest of us walk free – then I’m not complaining.

  3. Infidel Tiger

    Excellent words from Fitzgerald and Wilson..

    People who disagree with it should really be banned from Catallaxy.

  4. The Queensland laws are an indication of lazy, ineffective policing. The police have plenty of existing powers to pursue organised criminals who don’t ride motorbikes and wear colours. Instead they are targeting them on that basis, whether they are criminals or not. It’s the equivalent of pursuing everyone who speaks Italian on the assumption they are all Mafia.

  5. Rudiau

    I don’t believe regular motorbike riders belonging to social clubs like Ulysses are being targeted.

    Two friends in MacKay, a couple, both with Harleys both have no association with clubs social or otherwise, have been pulled over no less than ten times in the last fortnight.
    Pretext? Random breath test.
    Questions
    Do you belong to a gang? No. (should be the end of it)
    Are you wearing colours? No.
    Are you wearing a patch? No.
    Do you associate with gang members? No.
    Where do you work? Non of your business. (seriously)

    Mackay, I am told has an influx of sixty extra police.
    This intimidation despite repeated lies on radio and tv that no innocent bikers will be targeted.

  6. Gab

    This intimidation despite repeated lies on radio and tv that no innocent bikers will be targeted.

    At the other end of the scale, members of criminal bikie gangs are being targeted for wearing the colours in public.

    And in Mount Isa, a bikie gang associate has been fined $2500 and ordered to hand over his belt buckle following a weekend incident.

    Michael George Potter, 51, was arrested at a Mount Isa pub on Saturday afternoon after shouting abuse at patrolling police officers.

    He was charged with drunk and disorderly behaviour and wearing a prohibited item, a Rebels’ motorcycle gang belt buckle.

    He pleaded guilty to both charges in the Mount Isa Magistrates Court today and was fined and ordered to forfeit the buckle.

    Explain to me how this”crackdown” breaks up the criminal gangs?

  7. JC

    So it’s obvious now. All those Bolt monkeys who came here arguing against freedom of association and the sloppy policing of the QLD cops have been beclowned.

    A group apology would be in order I think.

  8. boy on a bike

    Most Harley riders seem to be middle aged accountants and lawyers trying to be rebellious and edgy.

    The cops should be granted maximum powers to crack down hard on these poseurs and try hards. The sooner they are all chased back into their wine bars and macchiato serving cafes, the better.

  9. Rudiau

    Explain to me how this”crackdown” breaks up the criminal gangs?

    This maybe a far fetch but it does remind of the rise and rise of the TSA powers in the US, where everyone but the intended get a hard time.

  10. Rudiau

    The cops should be granted maximum powers to crack down hard on these poseurs and try hards. The sooner they are all chased back into their wine bars and macchiato serving cafes, the better.

    says a bike rider, lol. 🙂

  11. Gab

    The cops should be granted maximum powers to crack down hard on these poseurs and try hards.

    I believe they already have those powers as they are already cracking down on bikies wearing Sons of Anarchy t-shirts.

  12. Lucie

    Very patronising of Tim Wilson to draw the false dichotomy of (dumb) populist who wants government to get tough on crime vs. (enlightened) thoughtful person … who agrees with his opinion.

  13. boy on a bike

    says a bike rider, lol

    Yep. They’re all wimps.

    Consider a financial controller who rides his Harley once a week from Vaucluse to Tetsuya’s for dinner, and has to moisturize his face with Lancôme as soon as he arrives because of the terrible effect the wind has on his skin, or a stock broker who rides his Harley from Woollahra to Watsons Bay to visit his man friend on a regular basis.

    Terminate. With extreme prejudice.

  14. Rudiau

    BTW

    Excellent words from Fitzgerald and Wilson..

    +1

  15. Infidel Tiger

    Queenslanders are now being arrested for wearing unregulated belt buckles and t-shirts. Nice fucking country we’ve got ourselves.

  16. Luke

    Yes but since when does one groups right to freedom of association trumps other’s right to freedom?

    The very reason bikies group together is to take away the freedom of others. Mostly the freedom to resist them.

    @infidel Tiger – that’s a load of crap!

  17. Rudiau

    Terminate. With extreme prejudice.

    Yeah … OK

  18. cohenite

    Bikies sans Islam are just big, fat hairy manifestations of organised crime and need no further criminal penalties although a dose of the salts through the ranks of the judiciary who do not enforce existing laws may be in order.

    But I repeat, bikies as agents of Islam are a different species, representing the pointy edge of a set of values which oppose the freedoms and individual rights otherwise being supported here.

    That’s the dilemma: when and to what to extent do you abrogate the rights which define our superior Western democracy from one group of people in that democracy? Is Islam a suitable candidate to have its members, in this instance as bikies, rights removed?

  19. J.H.

    JC

    #1051241, posted on October 30, 2013 at 12:22 pm
    So it’s obvious now. All those Bolt monkeys who came here arguing against freedom of association and the sloppy policing of the QLD cops have been beclowned.

    A group apology would be in order I think

    Er…….. No JC. It is you that needs to apologize for your hatred and inability to maintain a civil standard.

    Also it may come as a surprise to you, but under existing law, a person’s “right” to freely associate with certain others can be revoked by law and is enforced quite often…….

    These would be the “existing laws” the IPA chap was talking about…. and the laws that the “Bolt Monkeys” were in support of strengthening.

    So whether you like it or not, the “Bolt Monkeys” are right. There are already caveats on the freedom to associate in this country anyway………. it is you who are wrong by denying it.

    You may find it fine for criminals to openly associate, operate and maintain oppressive criminal networks…. but I don’t. I would like for them to be able to be dealt with by our laws and standards….. Thus the conversation must be had as to what laws, how much power and for those laws to be properly defined.

    Calling people with an alternate view and valid concern about violent criminal gangs, “Bolt Monkeys“……. While amusingly childish, doesn’t really contribute to the conversation much. It is intellectually lazy. 😉

  20. .

    You may find it fine for criminals to openly associate, operate and maintain oppressive criminal networks…. but I don’t.

    Those laws are recent innovations regardless and shouldn’t exist.

    The presumption of innocence is important. Parole conditions cannot be similarly defined as restrictions on association as it is a form of conditional release.

    If someone completes a 25 year sentence and is not free to associate, this is wrong. They should be back in gaol – or be totally free. A liberal justice system is honest.

  21. C.L.

    Great summary by Wilson.

    Very disappointing that many Finkelstein critics are A-OK with Newman.

  22. Infidel Tiger

    Very disappointing that many Finkelstein critics are A-OK with Newman.

    If Tony Abbott had proposed Finkelstein they’d be cool with it.

    No principles. No ideology. Shapeshifters.

  23. J.H.

    .

    #1051428, posted on October 30, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    You may find it fine for criminals to openly associate, operate and maintain oppressive criminal networks…. but I don’t.

    Those laws are recent innovations regardless and shouldn’t exist.

    The presumption of innocence is important. Parole conditions cannot be similarly defined as restrictions on association as it is a form of conditional release.

    If someone completes a 25 year sentence and is not free to associate, this is wrong. They should be back in gaol – or be totally free. A liberal justice system is honest.

    Dot……….. Everyone who drives a car is liable and obligated to being subjected to a random roadside breath test. It is an example of where society assumes guilt in everyone in order to prosecute the few.

    Queensland Commercial Trawler operations are subjected to mandatory Satellite tracking….. Quite an invasive action by Government upon private enterprise. Another example of a small select group within the greater society having to undergo special circumstances in order to comply with societal perceptions and standards.

    So why shouldn’t a convicted criminal be prohibited with associating with other known criminals?…….. We are talking about an Ordered society here, not an Authoritarian state. The context is people of known criminal involvement being prohibited from associating with others of known criminal involvement…… It is no different in some ways than acknowledging that convicted Paedophiles cannot be trusted near children. That time in jail does not automatically mean rehabilitation.

    Yes. I get the freedom argument and the apparent degradation of Liberal values concerning the freedom to associate…… But I temper it with the reality of acknowledging criminal behaviour and malicious intent and the need to restrict those that would abuse the privilege of a free society.

  24. Abu Chowdah

    Where was Fitzgerald on the Bolt trial and press inquiry?

  25. Lucie

    Yes, where was he then, indeed.

  26. Abu Chowdah

    Very patronising of Tim Wilson to draw the false dichotomy of (dumb) populist who wants government to get tough on crime vs. (enlightened) thoughtful person … who agrees with his opinion.

    A common fallacy used by the left. Cf “AGW”.

    Some of us are aware of the hypothetical risks of such law but adopt a “suck it and see” approach. Existing laws or their application have failed. Similar laws in the security area have not developed the cataclysmic outcomes predicted by bedwetters, and I suspect the same will be true of this niche solution. As soon as one unintended and undesirable consequence is proven, THEN it will be time to toss them out.

    As for demanding that anyone who differs is not worthy to post at the Cat: go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.

  27. Abu Chowdah

    And I repeat: where the FUCK was the heroic Fitzgerald during the Bolt trial?

  28. twostix

    The police need no new power.

    Nearly every bikie arrested already has a string of previous, often serious criminal convictions. Yet there they are wandering the streets engaged in more crime. It’s the Judiciary that need cleaning up in this country. I note that nobody talks about Fitzgeralds other whinge: about Newman cracking down on serial rapists being relentlessley turfed out of prisons by the corrections system after being declared “rehabilitated” (for the second or third time) after serving tiny sentences handed down by leftist ALP luvvie magistrates.

    The police need no new power, they are regularly arresting these people. Then the judiciary gives them 12 – 36 months for extortion, assault, or rape and they’re back out again. So Newman complains about the Judiciary and today it threatens Newman that unless he grovels to them it will release bikies until he does.

    The Judiciary is the last remaining place of elite untouchable power. Elected judges now.

  29. Sid Vicious

    What the bleedin’ hell is an Islamist throwing his leg over a HOG? I thought the Harley-Davidson bike was put together in the land of the great satan: the USA.

  30. Rabz

    Surrender the Belt Buckle!

    😡

  31. Makka

    “If someone completes a 25 year sentence and is not free to associate, this is wrong.”

    No it’s not . In many cases it’s essential. If someone has served such a sentence it must have been for a particularly heinous crime or series of crimes. Should such a person have committed that crime say against a child or while part of a crime syndicate or terrorist network be free to associate at will with no restrictions? No, not at all. They certainly must not be free to associate without restrictions. My rights to be protected and that of my law abiding family outweigh the ex-criminals rights to freedom to associate at will in such cases. Every time. That distinction was made back when the crime was committed.

    These assertions look good in an academic sense, until that person moves in next to you.

  32. Luke

    @twostix

    Spot on mate. It is the judiciary who have caused this. Again and again they simply refuse to get with community expectations. The chief justice in Queensland has twice made public statements attempting to defend the judiciary only to in effect say the public are just to stupid to know what’s good for them – judges know best.

    I hope this latest threat from the judiciary to Newman finally causes them and the system of appointment to have a very very long overhaul.

    We have had some of the highest maximum penalties in QLD for time and yet still the average sentence handed out has barely moved. Parliament keep putting it up and judiciary keep using the sentencing guidelines and personal circumstances of the guilty to ignore the increase.

  33. Adam d

    If a person requires restriction for public safety o fail to see why they taste any freedom of all. Elected judges and mandatory sentencing are far better ideas imo

  34. struth

    The queensland police need no new power. The police force has become as extorsionist as some bikie clubs. They are a money making machine. Maybe if the police officers snoring away in their cars at roadworks , charging massive hourly fees to unnecessarily sit there with their lights flashing, or manning radar to trap those criminals in our society doing 4 kmh over the speed limit they could do some police work. Catching criminals regardless of gang. They already have the laws. Whether you hate bikies or not , if you the government get away with this new age laziness, it won’t be just the bikies. Read some history. This is about very excessive government control. This is your freedom being slowly inched from you.

  35. jumpnmcar

    Luke

    Yes but since when does one groups right to freedom of association trumps other’s right to freedom?

    The very reason bikies group together is to take away the freedom of others. Mostly the freedom to resist them.

    What freedom of association of others do ” bikies ” trump ?
    In fact what freedoms at all do they deny others at all ?

    Without doubt the void created in drug supply and untaxed prostitution will be fill by someone, these laws won’t stop any ” crime ” at all.
    And if anyone tries to make me a criminal for havin a beer or two with a person of my choosing, they can try and fail.

  36. .

    These assertions look good in an academic sense, until that person moves in next to you.

    They ought to stay in gaol then.

  37. Australia is rapidly becoming the worst country on Earth. Every day I feel reaffirmed in my decision to leave permanently.

  38. Australia is rapidly becoming the worst country on Earth. Every day I feel reaffirmed in my decision to leave permanently.

    You obviously haven’t travelled much.

  39. .

    But, he seems to have travelled well.

  40. Fisky

    It’s not quite there yet, but Yobbo’s right. It’s an over-regulated toilet and only about 10 years behind the UK.

  41. So, after all the whining about Howard’s security laws, what disaster ensued?

  42. But, he seems to have travelled well.

    Agreed. He appears to live in paradise.

  43. But “worst country on earth”… I can’t help but sense that is hyperbolic.

  44. Fisky

    The RDA doesn’t get used much either Abu.

  45. Not anymore after me major abuse.

    But what abuses can we point to in the Howard legislation? None. Not one. Aimed at shitbags, just like this niche bikie crap.

  46. james

    Omcg members already commit numerous crimes. Why exactly do the police need new laws to target people who are breaking the existing law? Do your Damn job jack boys.

  47. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Australia is rapidly becoming the worst country on earth

    I’m just back from Cambodia. I’ll pay your fare there – one way. All you have to do is sign a legally binding document that you never come back to Australia. You will really have something to whinge about.

  48. No, you’re right James. They just need to use the existing laws harder.

  49. Gab

    They just need to use the existing laws harder.

    I know you’re being sarcastic here, Abu but I wonder if the cops have given up using existing laws becuase the judiciary seems to let the offenders off free or with light sentences? And then there’s the Parole review Board…

  50. Jokes aside, I think there’s truth in that, Gab. But telling the cops to “police gooder” is BS.

  51. Gab

    I believe it was police “harder” Abu, which is not so fanciful given cops have been told if they refuse to avail themselves of the Newman laws they will be sacked.

  52. But people mean police gooder with the old laws, Gab. Different. Subtle, but crucial.

  53. Fisky

    Yeah right, we need to pass a law to really crack down on a bunch of people who are breaking the law, but we won’t arrest them for breaking the existing law until we get that shiny new law???

  54. Gab

    Like I said, they gave up using existing laws becuase of the uselessness of the judiciary.

  55. Gab

    Yeah right, we need to pass a law to really crack down on a bunch of people who are breaking the law, but we won’t arrest them for breaking the existing law until we get that shiny new law???

    Tom Elliot (?) on 3AW interviewed Premier Napthine and asked a similar question. I am still waiting for Napthine to give an answer.

  56. Gab’s right. And whoever made the same point earlier.

    So they come up with a law that sparks a judicial shit fight. Maybe THAT was the point. Then they go back to the drawing board and generate laws that remove judicial advocacy from the equation. Result: everyone happy.

  57. Yeah right, we need to pass a law to really crack down on a bunch of people who are breaking the law, but we won’t arrest them for breaking the existing law until we get that shiny new law???

    You’re preaching to the converted. The Fisk doctrine is an example of this flawed thinking. All good in theory but when push comes to shove the law makers water it down and are scared to be tough. Also they lose their bottle and babble about replacing Abbott with Turnbull.

  58. Gab

    I’m waiting for NSW to implement similar OMCG “laws” to tackle the Outlaw Middle Eastern Gangs…but that will never happen.

  59. At least NSW had the balls to set up MEOCS.

  60. Calling a spade a spade, so to speak.

  61. jumpnmcar

    Q. How many innocent people are harmed by bikies?
    A. None

    Only willing customers and rivals.
    ( And occasionally willing spouses/partners.)

  62. Tinta

    … NSW had the balls to set up MEOC

    That was to give the boyz letters for their number plates

  63. Infidel Tiger

    Australia is rapidly becoming the worst country on earth

    Yobbo is right. In 2 generations this country has gone from the greatest place on earth to a shit splattered toilet ruled by bureaucratic leftist scum. Australia’s nanny state is so bad that even the British laugh at us.

  64. I’m just back from Cambodia. I’ll pay your fare there – one way. All you have to do is sign a legally binding document that you never come back to Australia.

    I was in Cambodia 2 weeks ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. I’m going to have to reject your offer though, since the fare from here to there is about $100, that doesn’t seem like I’m getting much out of this deal.

    If you honestly think Australia isn’t an overregulated nanny statist’s wet dream, then you’re obviously a pretty boring person.

    I probably will return to Australia one day, but only temporarily to visit my aging parents. I couldn’t think of anything worse than moving back there permanently.

  65. In fact probably the worst thing about Cambodia is all the busybody NGO workers, trying desperately to turn it into a family-friendly, overregulated poverty theme park. Spending all their time trying to convince hookers to take up organic farming or some bullshit, they make me sick.

  66. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Put up or shut up, Yobbo. You name me the country you regard as utopia, and I’ll pay your fare there. Economy, one way, standard baggage allowance, and all you have to do is sign a legally binding document that you never come back to Australia. As to getting much out of the deal, well your principles remain intact.

  67. You’re such a tough internet dude. Did you miss the part where I said I have already been living overseas for a fair while? I haven’t been back to Australia for 2 years, and don’t plan to any time soon.

    And by the way, your knowledge of contract law is pretty shabby. Me signing a contract to never return to Australia would not be enforceable unless you were compensating me in some way. And giving me a one-off payment of $100 wouldn’t cut the mustard.

    But if you’re willing to discuess an ongoing payment plan to keep me off your crappy island, I’ll have my people contact your people to thrash out the details.

  68. Name the Bikie gangs (we all know who they are), declare them terrorist organisations, and cut the military loose on them without restrictions.

    If there isn’t any hoof and mouth disease, there won’t be any…

  69. C.L.

    Australia is rapidly becoming the worst country on Earth.

    A mild overstatement.

    It is a freedom-hating, nanny state shithole, though, there’s no question of that.

    And it’s getting worse and worse.

    Our alleged defenders of freedom – the Liberal Party (LOL) – didn’t even have the balls to refuse support for Roxon’s abolition of property rights re plain packaging.

    The truth is Abbott loved the idea.

  70. .

    Yobbo
    #1052082, posted on October 30, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    In fact probably the worst thing about Cambodia is all the busybody NGO workers, trying desperately to turn it into a family-friendly, overregulated poverty theme park. Spending all their time trying to convince hookers to take up organic farming or some bullshit, they make me sick.

    LIBERTY QUOTE

  71. Well, that would be lowering the standard of liberty quotes, though I admit some of the choices boggle the mind.

    Anyway, Australia has become a toilet due to all of the people who don’t love it enough to improve it and keep talking smack about wanting to abandon it for other countries. Traitorous coprophile scum.

  72. The truth is Abbott loved the idea.

    Yes, if he doesn’t repeal the limit on duty free cigars then he will have committed a crime far worse than Campbell Newman.

  73. Fisky

    You’re preaching to the converted. The Fisk doctrine is an example of this flawed thinking. All good in theory but when push comes to shove the law makers water it down and are scared to be tough. Also they lose their bottle and babble about replacing Abbott with Turnbull.

    I won’t respond to any further Stalinist lies regarding the mythical Turnbullian deviation, but if you continue to misrepresent the beloved Doctrine, I shall have to riot and burn down whichever embassy you work at.

    The Doctrine has been distorted out of recognition by a tiny minority of extremists, known as the Perpetuist heresy.

  74. twostix

    Maybe if the police officers snoring away in their cars at roadworks

    I really couldn’t believe when I was up at the gold coast a few weeks ago seeing police babysitting road works late on a quiet Monday night what is this madness? In NSW they just put fake police lights next to road works. Far more efficient.

  75. Traitorous coprophile scum.

    Coprophile, or coprophage?

  76. twostix

    Put up or shut up, Yobbo. You name me the country you regard as utopia, and I’ll pay your fare there. Economy, one way, standard baggage allowance, and all you have to do is sign a legally binding document that you never come back to Australia. As to getting much out of the deal, well your principles remain intact.

    What are you doing with this nonsense?

    Australia is absolutely suffocating under 21st century nu-class statism, the only people who aren’t chaffing under the burden are statist lick spittles. Calling it out for what it is is the first step to redemption. Now let me get my precise measuring stick out and the correct paper work in order that grants me permission to throw a tiny piece of metal on the end of a piece of line into the ocean without being arrested.

  77. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Two Stix – I will admit to a very good dinner party earlier on, and I am pleasantly awash in good single malt.

    What on Earth are you talking about?

  78. twostix

    Last night the five year old son was up half the night with an irritating cough courtesy of a cold. The last bottle of kids cough medicine was out of date so off the mrs trots in the age old tradition of picking up some cough medicine from the chemist to relieve his suffering and allow him to sleep.

    “Giving cough medicine to five year olds is now banned without a prescription, here have a herbal remedy instead.”

    True story.

    So we were up half the night with a child hacking and coughing and miserable by government fiat.

    What a fucking shithole.

  79. twostix

    What on Earth are you talking about?

    Your whole love it or leave it nonsense. It’s stupid in the current regulation nightmare that is Australia.

  80. Australia has become a toilet due to all of the people who don’t love it enough to improve it and keep talking smack about wanting to abandon it for other countries.

    Who’s talking smack? I have abandoned Australia. I no longer live there. And I am not the only one in this thread who has done so.

  81. The point of no return for me came 7 years ago, when I was ejected from a pub and then arrested for no reason at all except that I wasn’t sufficiently deferential towards a pub bouncer. Spent the next few years getting my affairs in order so I could fuck off, and then I did.

    Australia is a shithole.

  82. Okay. Yob, we get it. So why do you keep touching base?

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