The JFK survey – Catallaxy survey 29

I have a post scheduled for the 50th anniversary of the instant that JFK was assassinated (12:30 US Central Standard Time, 22 November 2013), so you will have a chance to write your thoughts then.

But in preparation for the 50th anniversary, and in view of the many conspiracy theories (even US Secretary of State, John Kerry, has doubts that Oswald acted alone) let’s kick off with a survey.

CLICK FOR SURVEY

CLICK FOR RESPONSES

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85 Responses to The JFK survey – Catallaxy survey 29

  1. Leigh Lowe

    I watched bits and pieces of the SBS show last week, postulating that Secret Service agent Hickey accidentally shot Kennedy.
    I took a keen interest in this subject some twenty odd years ago and read half a dozen books on the subject and lots of other shorter articles.
    None of these books bought the “lone assassin” theory, because that doesn’t sell books, but some were fairer and more objective than others.
    In any case, the Hickey theory is not new and was mentioned in at least two sources I read. Admittedly, it didn’t get much of a run, and one quite laborious (but thorough) book did deal with it in a little detail and found that (and I am paraphrasing here):
    (1) To have had the weapon pointing forward (and slightly to the right to line up with Kennedy), Hickey would have to have executed three very unnatural and uncomfortable movements, given that the postulated objective was to bring the weapon to bear on a threat behind him;
    (2) By the time the second shot had been fired Kennedy was crouched quite low in his seat, and Hickey would have to have been standing at full height with the weapon at his shoulder to have hit Kennedy. No witnesses saw anything of the sort, (and this would have constituted a deliberate “palace coup” assassination subsequently sanctioned by his colleagues, who then protected him to their death-beds).
    (3) to have accidentally shot Kennedy from a kind of “at ready” position, with the weapon at waist (or even chest) level would have meant that the fatal bullet would have passed through the windscreen of the Secret Service vehicle about 4-5 inches from the top. Oh, and that windscreen was bullet-proof.
    Every book needs a twist to sell copies I guess.
    After several house moves I am not sure i even still have this book among the boxes of treasures in the shed. And, who knows, maybe it is not correct in the conclusions it draws about Hickey, but it was quite thorough in most respects.
    It was about 700-800 pages long, focused a lot on the autopsy (including lots of quite graphic photographs) … anyone recall it or read it?

  2. ITT: Things only baby boomers still care about.

  3. Silly theory – the Cigarette Smoking Man from X-Files was all set up to do it but Oswald (acting alone) stole his thunder. :p

    Honestly, I think most people are beyond caring at this point.

  4. Jimmy

    Lone gun theory denial is the mark of the conspiracy nut bag ! The fact that so many cats buy into this is disturbing !

  5. j

    The US Federal Reserve was under threat.

  6. Paul

    “Lone gun theory denial is the mark of the conspiracy nut bag ! The fact that so many cats buy into this is disturbing !”

    Open up, here comes the aeroplane…good boy. Questions are for nut bags aren’t they Jimmy.

  7. OldOzzie

    As a youth, I did a lot of shooting with a variety of rifles and variety of bullets from military full jacketed bullets, to soft nose lead bullets, and variety of shot gun shells, and saw in the roos and pigs shot , the difference in damage between a solid military bullet – clean hole in and clean hole out, and the soft nose bullet – small hole in, big explosion of mass out the back.

    Watching the SBS documentary the other night, I agree that there must have been 2 guns, as Oswald was using full metal military bullets, and bullet that blew Kennedy’s Brains out had to be a soft nose lead bullet.

    Have not got a clue as to who/what the second gun was, but based on the exploding brain, seems feasible to me

  8. Go Tiges

    I just can’t get my head around the single bullet theory. If that puts me into the conspiracy nut bag group, so be it.

  9. Ellen of Tasmania

    Honestly, I think most people are beyond caring at this point.

    History matters.

    But it’s a comfortable thought for those who are trying to cover anything up today.

  10. Rabz

    If you think there was a conspiracy, who was involved?

    Extra Terrestrials.

    😉

  11. boy on a bike

    If you think there was a conspiracy, who was involved?

    Tony Abbott

  12. Peter H

    I think a survey into the murder of President John Kennedy is in very poor taste. To speculate on it for entertainment is pretty repulsive.

  13. I am the Walrus, koo koo k'choo

    I think you have to look at Tony Abbott’s role in this …

  14. Leo G

    Setting aside the questions about the identity of the shooter or shooters, there is overwhelming evidence of a conspiracy after the shooting- by the secret service and apparently the Vice President- to subvert the legal and medical processes in determining the cause of JFK’s death.

  15. Leigh Lowe

    …. there is overwhelming evidence of a conspiracy after the shooting- by the secret service and apparently the Vice President- to subvert the legal and medical processes in determining the cause of JFK’s death.

    Again, the particular book I read years ago (and I wish I could find the bloody thing) focussed a fair bit on the autopsy.
    It describes a similar scene to the SBS documentary at Bethesda – too many fingers in the pie, lots of confusion and some macho posturing – but it draws a very different conclusion.
    Instead of conspiracy and cover-up, it carefully outlined the roles and responsibilities of all the players and pointed out overlapping (and vague) jurisdictional boundaries and unclear chains of command.
    In short, it was a bunch of people trying to do their jobs (and no doubt avoid any later accusation of incompetence), and possibly some with the ghoulish intent of placing themselves on the centre-stage of history.
    A lot has been made of CIA links with Oswald and FBI links with Jack Ruby.
    FFS!
    Oswald was ex-military turned communist who had visited Cuba during the height of the Cold War – of course the CIA were interested in him.
    And Ruby was a slightly dodgy night-club owner and would have been a valuable source of intyel for the FBI on domestic criminal matters.
    I am unsure why relatively normal (even expected) behaviour by these agencies suddenyly becomes a consopircay becasue of one nut-job.

  16. No Conspiracy

    Leigh Lowe (9.50am). Was it “Mortal Error”? The bloke ( Bonar Menninger) who wrote that was interviewed on the SBS show.

    Apart from the two different types of bullets, there are plenty of witnesses who reckon they heard shots from behind the motorcade, and who also smelled gunpowder, including a number of cops right at the motorcade. This latter suggests at least one, much closer, firing than just those from Oswald 60 metres away.

  17. Popular Front

    Take a look at some of the written responses on that survey. Some amazing levels of ignorance are on display. Some clown claims ‘for initially prosecuting the Vietnam War, then negotiating a peace settlement leading to the country being partitioned into North & South Vietnam’.

    There are other equally ludicrous assertions in the ‘responses’ section but I’ll just deal with this silly one:
    1) Kennedy committed Special Forces training teams, much like our own AATTV and naturally they eventually got sucked into battle with the VC & NVA but always at a small unit level. It was LBJ who commenced the escalation, when he sent in the USMC to Da Nang in 1965.
    2) Kennedy had nothing whatsoever to do with the eventual peace deal because he was long dead.
    3) Vietnam was partitioned north & south at the end of the First Vietnam War in 1954, when the French had their gallic arses handed to them on a silver platter. According to the Paris Accords, free and fair elections were due in 1956 but everyone knew that Ho Chi Minh would win in a stroll and unite the country so Ngo Dinh Diem ousted the emporer Bao Dai and with growing US support refused to hold the elections, creating South Vietnam. Fast forward to 1975 and you have a unified independant Vietnam.

  18. Motelier

    Fortunately I was I short pants playing in the back yard or in my bed asleep when it happened.

    I have only seen documentary’s and read accounts of what he was like. So there will me no memory for me.

    However this is typical of “Leaders” who get assassinated either literally or figuratively. Think of Cough Wittless, and now observe the remaking of TLS. And all on Remembrance Day.

  19. Leigh Lowe

    I have only seen documentary’s and read accounts of what he was like. So there will me no memory for me.

    Think of him as the political equivalent of Buddy Holly.
    But for his early, unfortunate and sudden demise he would be long forgotten by now.

  20. Alfonso

    There is still an easy way to determine if a second shooter.

    Given there were 3 shots and all strikes have been documented, the large fragments of bullet jacket found on the front car floor have been surprisingly ignored. This can only be from the head shot if there was a single shooter, the stretcher bullet and the gutter hit being the other two.
    Bullet jackets from different ammo manufacturers always have micro metallurgy differences. A mass spectrometer will determine if the jacket on the floor is from the same ammo batch as the 6.5 Carc bullet fired by LHO. If not , Houston we have a problem.

    But here’s a tip: the floor jacket remain is large with imprinted rifling, it looks like no .223 I’ve ever seen, even a simple measure of the jacket might be enough to put the second shooter to bed.

    http://www.jfklancer.com/pub/CE/CE569.JPG

  21. Leigh Lowe

    The Kennedy’s simply exercised poor judgement in their choice of motor vehicles.
    Jack would obviously have been better off with a hard-top and, if Teddy had been driving a convertible, Mary-Jo might still be with us.

  22. Alfonso

    PS.
    The barrel rifling twist of a 6.5 Carc vs say, a .223 Win are different ( long thin 6.5 162gr bullet needs more stabilising than short 55-62gr .223), there’s enough floor jacket left to determine twist, so it’s possible second shooter can be disproved without cranking up the mass spec and wasting valuable electricity.

  23. Up The Workers!

    Everybody knows it was AbbottAbbottAbbott on the grassy knoll whodunit!

  24. roger

    As for the SBS documentary: It is based on a book which blames a Secret Service agent on JFK’s death. The documentary itself mentions that this agent sued, after the book’s release, the author of the book and received “undisclosed amount” to not take him to court.
    There is no f-ing way, IMO, that the author would have paid a cent to the alleged killer if the theory was correct. Even a court case which would have been lost would have given the poorly-selling book a much needed publicity, let alone a winning court case; Yet the author chose to pay so that this matter does not reach court.
    If you believe that the book was correct you probably believe that Craig Thomson cancelled his defamation case though he was innocent of the allegations made against him in the press.
    Having said all that, I do believe there a conspiracy, though one in which Oswald was the lone shooter. Some greater forces were behind the shooting, with Oswald – while being the shooter, IMO – was only one part of a much larger story.
    My favourite conspiracy theory is the Mafia, BTW.

  25. egg_

    My favourite conspiracy theory is the Mafia, BTW.

    Jack Ruby’s omnipresence around Oswald?

  26. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Ay, Popular Front, I think you find the “Paris Accords” of 1954 were actually signed in Geneva.

    I haven’t read DeVillers and Lacouture “End Of A War”, about the Geneva Conference, for a while, but some of the wheeling and dealing was pretty intense. “Chou En Lai, passing Anthony Eden in the corridors, indicates with a little nod, a half smile that perhaps they could have a profitable word alone,
    a stunned reporter
    realises that a Viet Minh spokesman’s response to a routine question is nothing less than a new diplomatic proposal…….”

  27. Popular Front

    Quite so ZK2A, of course it was Geneva. I was in so much of a hurry to rip that comment apart that I tripped over my own dick. Did you read any of those attached comments? The level of ignorance on an event from our recent past is truly staggering.

  28. roger

    Jack Ruby’s omnipresence around Oswald?

    Yep.
    Here you have a guy (Oswald) – going to be either locked up for life or to be executed for murder – and another guy – with no obvious direct connection to the murdered ruining his own life by shooting him.
    What on Earth could drive Ruby to kill Oswald if not to silence him – for the Mafia, probably?

  29. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Popular Front – some of the comments are staggering. I’m going out on a limb here, and recommend Gerald Posner’s book “Cased Closed” about the assasination. The various conspiracy theories will probably never go away, although…….

  30. JohnRMcD

    If there is a choice between a conspiracy and a cock-up; choose the cock-up every time. And though I was around 21 at the time, and it seemed like some kind of tragedy; had it not happened and he had served out his time, he would have been seen today as an average leader.

  31. stackja

    Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone, shot and killed JFK on 22/11/63? * Yes

    If you think there was a conspiracy, who was involved? Fidel Castro

    If Kennedy had survived that day, how do you expect we would remember him?
    Not kindly. His agenda would have not worked. LBJ would not have become President. JFK may not have won a second term. Who knows Nixon may have won and maybe Watergate would not have occurred. Vietnam was just starting, LBJ may not have wielded the power to legislate that what he did. The Great Society for good or ill would not have been created.

  32. Leo G

    If there is a choice between a conspiracy and a cock-up…

    And if the choice is between a conspiracy and a multiplicity of unbelievable cock-ups?
    Kennedy’s car was stationary when the fatal shot was fired- a cock-up?
    So many big problems with the forensic, ballistics and autopsy evidence- all cock-ups?
    Why did no-one check the buildings along the motorcade route?
    Why did an ex-gunrunner for the CIA and Mafia eliminate the suspect?
    Why did Robert Kennedy and Jackie sent their agent William Walton to personally convey a message to Khrushchev shortly after the assassination?
    Seems to me that at the least there was a conspiracy to conceal a string of cock-ups.

  33. Leigh Lowe

    The documentary itself mentions that this agent sued, after the book’s release, the author of the book and received “undisclosed amount” to not take him to court.

    Yes, there was a total gloss-over of the court settlement with Hickey.
    The author and SBS dismissed this with the glib line that they didn’t want to spend money on a drawn-out court case.

    What the?
    A publisher and their lawyers were worried that a long retired Secret Service Agent would outspend them on legal fees?
    Bull.Shit.
    More like they wanted to settle quietly without a public court case, sign an NDA and wait until Hickey died before re-publishing.

    They then went on to impugn Hickey’s character by saying that it took him two years to sue. This is a deliberate slur as well. They know that Hickey would have had to seek a deed of release from the US Secret Service to use material and knowledge from his Secret Service job in his own defence. This would have been difficult to obtain, particularly as it was not a criminal trial, and also that Hickey was the plaintiff, not a defendant.

    These are just grubby pricks trying to sell books and, in the case of SBS, any slap at the US intelligence community is worth airing.

  34. Jim Rose

    if lone nuts can set-off world war I, shooting kennedy is easy to believe.

    oswald’s one talent in life was a marine sharpshooter

  35. Leigh Lowe

    oswald’s one talent in life was a marine sharpshooter

    That is another bit of spin employed by the conspiracy theorists, Jim.
    He is described in many quarters as being “only slightly better than average as a marksman”.
    This is based on the fact that he wasn’t in the very top echelon of marksmen in his military unit (which was selected for special training as elite marksmen).
    So, he was average among the elite, but is presented as an F-Troop type who couldn’t hit the side of a haystack.
    Genuine experts are perfectly happy that he was capable of firing three shots in the time and, given his position, concede surprise that it took him three shots.

  36. Go Tiges

    That is another bit of spin employed by the conspiracy theorists, Jim.
    He is described in many quarters as being “only slightly better than average as a marksman”.
    This is based on the fact that he wasn’t in the very top echelon of marksmen in his military unit (which was selected for special training as elite marksmen).
    So, he was average among the elite, but is presented as an F-Troop type who couldn’t hit the side of a haystack.
    Genuine experts are perfectly happy that he was capable of firing three shots in the time and, given his position, concede surprise that it took him three shots.

    You should read 6 seconds in Dallas. Which is also a good book about the shooting and presents the other side of Case Closed referenced by ZKTA above. Yes, it’s possible to get 3 shots off a bolt action rifle in 6 seconds, but unlikely to get 2 off as close together as they are. Also unlikely that the 3rd would be the best.

  37. stackja

    Life imitating

    Suddenly (1954 film)
    From Wikipedia
    Suddenly is a 1954 American film noir thriller, the tranquility of a small town is jarred when the U.S. President is scheduled to pass through and a hired assassin takes over the Benson home as a perfect location to ambush the president. It’s interesting to note that it was filmed years before the Kennedy assassination, but there are many similarities between the Sinatra character and Lee Harvey Oswald.” Another person who was certainly aware of Suddenly, whether or not he ever saw it, was Lee Harvey Oswald, the presumed assassin of President John F. Kennedy in 1963. The movie played at several New Orleans theaters for two months in the winter of 1954-55, at a time when Oswald was living there and was a 15-year-old borderline juvenile delinquent. In his teenage world, Oswald cannot have been ignorant of such a violent and sensational movie.

    Suddenly (1954) is available for free download at the Internet Archive.

  38. Alfonso

    “oswald’s one talent in life was a marine sharpshooter”
    Typical Yanks, a “World” Series type wank, the description means nothing , a Sharpshooter qualification was basic pass mark plus not much…..most of a squad did Sharpshooter then, a standard achievement.
    This is not a USMC sniper qualification.

    However, the firearm evidence aficionados need to note that the scope on LHO’s rifle was useless….the tv reconstructions haven’t read the evidence. The scope was easily moved in the rings and hence useless accuracy wise, LHO shot over open sights, the Weaver style high ring allowed that, now we have open sights…..much harder .

  39. Jim Rose

    Must everything be the result of a grand plan – a secret conspiracy that ordinary people uncover with little effort? Whatever happened to unintended consequences?

    Cass Sunstein defines a conspiracy theory as: “An effort to explain some event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role.” Of course some conspiracy theories turn out to be true.”

    He goes on to argue that millions hold conspiracy theories – that powerful people work together to withhold the truth about some important practice or terrible event.

    Sunstein also argues that many extremists stem not from irrationality but from having little (relevant) information and their extremist views are supported by what little they know:
    1. Conspiracy theories generally attribute extraordinary powers to certain agents – to plan, to control others, to maintain secrets, and so forth.
    2. Conspiracy theories overestimate the competence and discretion of officials and bureaucracies, who are assumed to be able to make and carry out sophisticated secret plans, despite abundant evidence that in open societies that government action does not usually remain secret for very long.
    3. Conspiracy theories also assume that the nefarious secret plans are easily detected by members of the public such as themselves without the need for special access to the key information or any investigative resources.

    Sunstein also argued that a distinctive feature of conspiracy theories is their self-sealing quality. Conspiracy theorists are not likely to be persuaded by an attempt to dispel their theories and look at these attempts as further proof of the conspiracy.

    Karl Popper argued that conspiracy theories overlook the pervasive unintended consequences of political and social action; they assume that all consequences must have been intended by someone.

    Most people lack direct or personal information about the explanations for terrible events, and they are often tempted to attribute such events to some nefarious actor.

  40. Alfonso

    Alas Jim , all anyone needs to do to disprove a conspiracy, ie. not a single shooter, is to prove the large bullet jacket remains found on the floor of the car are 6.5 Carc….an easy task in 2013.
    No takers.
    Interesting.

  41. roger

    Here is a conspiracy theory for you Jim Rose:
    Remember the four Americans that were killed in Benghazi? It actually was NOT because of an anti-Islam YouTube video, even though the US President, his Secretary of State, his UN Ambassador and the rest of the US Administration insisted it was

    Here is another:
    Killing the most guarded man in Earth could be quite impossible even to the best marksman on Earth. A lot of planning and access to secret information is required – More than one lunatic could handle by himself

  42. Alfonso

    ‘A lot of planning and access to secret information is required’

    Rubbish, JFK’s motorcade route was public knowledge. That’s all that was required.

  43. Leigh Lowe

    I think the conspiracy theories have got such currency on both sides of the political spectrum for two very different reasons.
    Democrats have always wanted to believe that their Camelot King Jack was taken by a vast conspiracy of Southern white supremacists, right wingers in general, criminals afraid of Robert, all aided and abetted by disloyal elements in the CIA, FBI and Secret Service.
    As for Republicans – and remember, this was at the height of the Cold War – they simply couldn’t accept that the vast security infrastructure of the USA was incapable of protecting the President from a dweeby 22 year old with a Sears catalogue rifle. No, it had to be an unlikely conspiracy of Castro’s Commies, dago mafioso assisted by a small number of Soviet infiltrators in the Security services.

  44. Alfonso

    JFK was shot by LHO, two hits one miss……the book proclaiming Secret Service accidental discharge is nonsense, that isn’t a .223 Win jacket on the floor and it has to be for the book not to be junk.

  45. Leigh Lowe

    This vast conspiracy fifty years ago, with the direct involvement of how many ? …. Thirty, forty, fifty people? …. and supposedly covered up by hundreds more who were either complicit or coerced.
    In the intervening years, we have seen the New York mafia fall apart (helped by Grand Jury evidence from erstwhile omertà adherents), the Soviet Union collapse from within and Collingwood win two Premierships.
    But not one of these Dallas conspirators has had a twinge of conscience or made their peace with a death-bed confession.
    They are a tight bunch.

  46. roger

    If there was no conspiracy explain Jack Rubi.

  47. Alfonso

    Ruby was a coincidental nutter.
    Had he known anything about a conspiracy he could easily have converted that information into witness protection in Brazil.
    Instead he died of cancer in a gaol he didn’t need to be in.
    Duh.

  48. Leo G

    Yes, it’s possible to get 3 shots off a bolt action rifle in 6 seconds, but unlikely to get 2 off as close together as they are. Also unlikely that the 3rd would be the best.

    The Zapruder film indicates that the damaging shots occurred at frames 200 and 313 of a camera operating at 18.3 frames per second. So Oswald had more than 6 seconds between the two shots.

  49. egg_

    coincidental

    The murder of both John and Robert Kennedy.

  50. Alfonso

    Oh my dear egg…..
    Amazing similarities between the Lincoln and JFK assassination .

    A month before Lincoln was assassinated he was in Monroe, Maryland.
    A month before Kennedy was assassinated he was in Marilyn Monroe.

  51. egg_

    loser conspiracy nutjobs

    Fascinating.
    As a Tier III technical troubleshooter of some decades, when a fault* occurs through either misadventure or design fault, every @rsehole seems to have a theory as to the cause (until it’s resolved)… human nature?

    *More frequently find that simple logic (and observation) is your best friend.

  52. egg_

    similarities between the Lincoln and JFK

    Both American Presidents, a health hazard.

  53. Go Tiges

    The Zapruder film indicates that the damaging shots occurred at frames 200 and 313 of a camera operating at 18.3 frames per second. So Oswald had more than 6 seconds between the two shots.

    Depends on which one missed.
    From the Warren Commission: the time span between the shot entering the back of the President’s neck and the bullet which shattered his skull was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds. If the second shot missed, then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots. If either the first or third shots missed, then a minimum of 2.3 seconds (necessary to operate the rifle) must be added to the time span of the shots which hit, giving a minimum time of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for the three shots.

  54. JC

    anyone watch the 4 Corners program.

    The theory they expounded was that it was Oswald and that there were actually 11+ seconds between the three shots. The first shot, they suggest missed and hit a traffic light.

  55. Alfonso

    The FBI shooting tests with simulations of movement and angle were not encouraging….one of their competents did great, three more did not.

    It remains as the elephant, if the floor bullet fragments were 6.5 Carc = LHO, if not = a second shooter and a conspiracy.
    Easy to prove tomorrow morning.
    Do the US press read the Cat?

  56. roger

    IMO, both lone shooter AND conspiracy. They are not mutually exclusive

  57. Leo G

    Depends on which one missed.
    From the Warren Commission: the time span between the shot entering the back of the President’s neck and the bullet which shattered his skull was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds.

    That was based on the obvious responses shown between frames 210 and 225. But more recent examination of the film shows Kennedy responding to his injury in earlier frames.
    Moreover , the shooters job was made easier by the deceleration of the president’s car before the first damaging shot. The vehicle slowed from more than 20 kph to an average of less than 8kph between the last two shots at positions about 12 metre apart, so Oswald’s last shot of about 90 metre was at a target that was slowing to a stop.

  58. Go Tiges

    It remains as the elephant, if the floor bullet fragments were 6.5 Carc = LHO, if not = a second shooter and a conspiracy.
    Easy to prove tomorrow morning.
    Do the US press read the Cat?

    I agree Alfonso why haven’t they tested it? Something they could clear up quickly. I wonder if it’s the bullet that entered the President’s back but was not found in his body at the autopsy. If a shot entered JFK’s back, exited his throat, and did not strike the Governor, where did it go?

  59. Alfonso

    “IMO, both lone shooter AND conspiracy. They are not mutually exclusive”

    I have no opinion on that.

  60. egg_

    Unless a top grade sharpshooter, sounds ridiculous to attempt to (single out) a target in a moving motorcade IMHO.

  61. calli

    anyone watch the 4 Corners program.

    I did, JC. And it proves how variable eyewitness reports can be. The most compelling eye/ear witness remains the young man (15 at the time) who heard three shots from the window.

    I’m not one for long lived conspiracies…human nature always wants to reveal even the mundane, and yet this was important. If there had been something crucial, it would have come out by now.

  62. Alfonso

    ” I wonder if it’s the bullet that entered the President’s back but was not found in his body at the autopsy. If a shot entered JFK’s back, exited his throat, and did not strike the Governor, where did it go?”

    Nah, that’s the ‘magic bullet’. Not so magic, easy JFK lean forward geometry.

    After the JFK back strike it struck the Gov rib and wrist, It was found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital
    deformed but only missing a few grains of cupro jacket left in the Gov who could have helped everyone by allowing that jacket to be removed at his death.
    A 6.5mm 162 gr bullet has huge sectional density, penetration not a problem, ivory hunter WD Bell shot many thousands of East African elephants with a very similar bullet. The penetration of that weight in a 6.5 is immense, don’t let anyone tell you it was magic.

  63. roger

    How did Oswald know the motorcade would be of convertibles? Does anyone knowhether that was common in those days?

  64. Jim Rose

    why no romantic liberal conspiracy theories about those that shot at ford and reagan?

  65. calli

    Sorry, ‘proves’ was the wrong word. ‘Shows’ might have been better.

  66. Alfonso

    Geez, roger….
    This isn’t Mission Impossible.
    If LHO had no opportunistic shot on 22 Nov, due saloon cars or other, he’d have gone home and you would never have heard of him.

    Welcome to the random nature of events.

  67. roger

    Alfonso what IS was getting at – and this is just a hypothesis for which I have no proof – is that there was collusion from within the Secret Service.
    While this could be false I still believe it was a conspiracy, with or without inside help.

  68. Leigh Lowe

    Unless a top grade sharpshooter, sounds ridiculous to attempt to (single out) a target in a moving motorcade IMHO.

    Not so difficult.
    It is deceptive to watch the ground level footage.
    From Oswald’s vantage point the road runs almost directly away from him, and slightly downhill, so the car would have been barely moving relative to Oswald’s viewpoint.
    In fact, if you extend a line directly up Elm St, it passes almost precisely through Oswald’s position in the Book Depository.
    In other words, it wouldn’t have been difficult to fire, eject, and re-acquire the target again quickly, as distinct from a target moving rapidly across your field of view.

  69. Mundi

    Actually Leigh, several people have made death bed confessions, which is the basis of many books.

    Many of them are credible and compatible, especially the ones surrounding Jack Ruby, Thomas Davis, and basically their whole oganised crime setup. Combine this with the ties to oswald and his russian history and there is almost 100% certainty that there was somesort of greater conspiracy above Oswald and Ruby doing the murders just because they felt like it.

  70. Leigh Lowe

    How did Oswald know the motorcade would be of convertibles? Does anyone knowhether that was common in those days?

    Yes.
    Politicians haven’t changed.
    An opportunity to create an impact was never passed up.

  71. Alfonso

    Roger, roger….just stick to the physical evidence. You got nothing outside that.

  72. egg_

    Leigh Lowe
    #1067105, posted on November 11, 2013 at 10:07 pm

    Last rifle I used was an air rifle as a kid (and not a bad shot); however, had LHO aimed marginally high, he’d have hit the Governor or the Secret Service agent in front of him – seems like a ‘crap’ shoot all-in-all, unless the best of marksmen?
    Plus it was still a moving target in 3D.

  73. roger

    The physical evidence, dear Alfonso, is that Oswald was shot by Ruby.
    No single-lunatic theory explains why a businessman with no links to either Oswald nor JFK but with links to the Mafia would ruin his own life to kill Oswald.

  74. Alfonso

    Oh dear…
    Why didn’t Ruby bargain his knowledge of the conspiracy?

    Getting it yet?

  75. Alfonso

    Here’s a better example Roger…..
    You don’t think Ruby would have bargained state of the art cancer treatment at Sloan Kettering Inst for his knowledge of a conspiracy……nah, better to choose certain death in a prison with asprin?
    Try and think matey.

  76. roger

    Ruby was obviously trying to silence Oswald from revealing some truth about the affair.
    Maybe this truth Ruby was trying to conceal, dear Alfonso, was NOT exposed to Ruby himself? Maybe he was just a Mafia footsoldier acting on order?

  77. Leo G

    “It wouldn’t have been difficult to fire, eject, and re-acquire the target again quickly, as distinct from a target moving rapidly across your field of view.”

    Not so easy when you consider that the target spread was less than 0.13 degree at about 90 metre range, the rifle’s 4 power telescopic sight was badly misaligned, the state of the bolt and the trigger pull prevented accurate firing, and he managed to fire the rifle without leaving the slightest residue of barium or antimony on his cheek. I wonder if he had his eyes open.

  78. egg_

    From the Zapruder film, looks like a front entry to me; as a crime scene, the vehicle, the body etc were tainted evidence anyway; there’ll always be speculation due to lack of (good) evidence.

  79. Leo G

    What I found interesting in the Four Corners feature tonight about the shooting, was the consistent description given by a witness who saw the weapon at about the time it was first fired from the book depository window. A long tube protruding well out from the window, and no stock in sight- that is, not a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano Model 91/38 short rifle like the one found with Oswald’s prints all over it.

  80. Conspiracy theories are often facts distorted by those who are not objective enough to let the facts speak for themselves. Most people interpret. Few are truly objective. But follow the money and you will often find who is pulling the strings.

    Why did Gaddafi need to be killed? The people of Libya loved Gaddafi. He walked around the country freely without security. Libya was a wealthy country and every married couple was given a $50,000 gift to build their own home. The education level of the people was becoming world class. Gaddafi wanted to institute a new currency for the Arab and African nations and break the rule of the central banks, in particular, the World Bank. Libya did not have a central bank, but as soon as the rebels took control, the country got its first central bank.

    Who owns the Federal Reserve Bank of United States (The FED)? Who owns the World Bank? Who controls the central banks? Do some research first and stop showing your ignorance. You might learn something about how the economy of this world really operates.

    Kennedy wanted to strip the FED of private ownership. He wanted to end the Vietnam War. Who would these two events hurt the most. Follow the money trail and then you might learn something.

  81. wazsah

    Saw 4 Corners last night and I thought their postlation of the first shot hitting the traffic light was bunkum. So many people there and nobody looks up at – boom – crack, clang- ricochet.
    Too stupid for words.
    I enjoyed their showing movie film panning across the grassy knoll to show – lookie no shooters – wow – and nobody could have been behind the fence – where several witnesses saw smoke at the time of the shots.
    Remember too that doctors at Parkland said the front throat wound was an entry wound. Small and neat.
    In both the SBS program last week and 4 Corners, no mention of the bullet mark found on the kerb.
    I am surprised at 4 Corners purveying such twaddle.

  82. Leo G

    I am surprised at 4 Corners purveying such twaddle.

    To date, all JFK assassination theories- including the official ones- have been twaddle. There was too much interference with the evidence and intimidation of investigators and witnesses that was covered up for too long. No-one has confidence in any of the remaining evidence.

  83. Cold-Hands

    The “magic bullet” wasn’t so magic after all.

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