Nelson Mandela – no Churchill

The response to Mandela’s death has been nothing short of exceptional. To me it has been exaggerated.

At various places in Australia, for example, people were invited to reflect with a minute’s silence – I don’t recall this being offered when Margaret Thatcher passed away.

There is no doubt that Mandela suffered, and he showed a great capacity to forgive. His relationship with F.W. de Klerk aided the transition from apartheid.

But beyond that, what is his legacy? South Africa remains poor and corrupt. Brutal killings and tribal wars threaten its stability.

Mandela could not influence the path that South Africa has embarked. A country with much potential is going backwards. Jacob Zuma and his government seem to be modelling South Africa into a second Zimbabwe.

Let’s celebrate the memory of Mandela, but don’t exaggerate his importance in world affairs. Mandela was no Churchill.

About J

J has an economics background and is a part-time consultant
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74 Responses to Nelson Mandela – no Churchill

  1. Noddy

    Why should we weep for Mandela?
    He was a communist-terrorist.
    Read his essay freely available on the ‘net, ‘How to be a good communist’.
    Yes, he did change Africa but I am amazed how the world leaders troop to pay homage.
    And let us not forget Winnie with her matches who advocated ‘necklacing’ those who opposed her.
    Barbarians of the highest order!

  2. Badjack

    How many blacks and coloureds are better off today than 20 years ago? SFA

  3. Geriatric Mayfly

    ‘Exaggerated’ An understatement surely. The SBS reaction alone has been unhinged. The heights of absurdity have now been scaled by SBS, which will leave them little room for manoeuvre when Fidel’s turn comes around.

  4. Jimmy

    Does Sinc have a comment ? His absence from this debate is kinda odd.

    Also, Samuel, declare where you work now. This obsession with minor Canberra stuff is bizarre.

    Declaration: I had 2 kids at Telopea in the high school(not the French thing).. it was a good school, but no better than many others (Coffs Harbour High, eg).

  5. Baldrick

    Can’t recall Churchill using petrol soaked tyres as a diplomatic tool!

  6. Badjack

    Even thought the words came from a pot smoking singer there could well be a lot of truth in them.
    Freedoms just another word for nothing else to lose.

  7. Tapdog

    Exaggerated indeed. As Mark Steyn observed

    “…..Mr. Phillips, who runs the Crumbs sandwich shop in the English town of Rugeley, had gone online and complained: “My PC takes so long to shut down I’ve decided to call it Nelson Mandela.” The Staffordshire constabulary arrested him, seized his computers, and in the course of an eight-hour detention fingerprinted and DNA-swabbed him. “

  8. Token

    Mandela was on balance a good man, but he was very flawed:

    Go safely Umkhonto. Umkhonto we Sizwe. We the members of the Umkhonto have pledged ourselves to kill them — kill the whites.” These are lyrics from the anthem of Umkhonto we Sizwe, or “Spear of the Nation.” The organization is better known as the MK, the military wing of the Marxist African National Congress (ANC). The MK was established by its commander, Nelson Mandela, to prosecute a terrorist war against South Africa’s racist apartheid regime.

    Mandela had been out of prison for about two years in September 1992 when, fist clenched in the “black power” salute, he was filmed singing the anthem with a number of his comrades. Interestingly, but not ironically, as Mandela and others repeated the refrain about killing Boer farmers, it was a white man who stood next to him, similarly clench-fisted and singing. The man’s name is Ronnie Kasrils. A Soviet-trained terrorist who helped Mandela found the MK, Kasrils was a member of the Central Committee of the South African Communist Party.

    …by doing what Gandhi refused to do and by using violence to fight the regime in power, he opened a Pandora’s Box which people in SAF still suffer from:

    The MK led a terrorist insurgency that included bombings of public places. It killed many, many more civilians than it did members of the regime’s security forces — copiously including women and children. Indeed, it killed many more people than the approximately 7,000 black South Africans who, according to the post-apartheid Truth and Reconciliation Commission, were killed by the regime during the 46 years of apartheid. In fact, twice that number, over 14,000 people, were killed between 1990 and 1994 — the period during which the ANC was legalized and black-on-black violence became rampant, just as it is in South Africa today. The ANC systematically killed rivals for power and suspected regime informants — most notoriously, by the savage method of “necklacing,” in which a tire filled with gasoline was hung around the terrified victim’s neck and then set on fire.

    …Defying fears justified by his past, Mandela did not allow South Africa to slide into civil war upon becoming president in 1994. Nor did he immediately fulfill the revolutionary hopes of his fellow Communists. Nevertheless, as the South African journalist Ilana Mercer recounts in Into the Cannibal’s Pot, a searing if depressing account of her country post-apartheid, approximately 300,000 South Africans have been murdered since the day, almost 20 years ago, that Mandela took office.

  9. Abraham

    Most ex-South Africans refrain from comment because of the ‘racist’ label given to any individual courageous enough to refuse worshipping St Nelson.

    Have you noticed the lack of opinion sourced from South Africans other that black Africans? Why weren’t white or Indian or coloured South Africans asked their opinions regarding the passing of St. Nelson?

  10. Jimmy

    He didnt go Algeria

    That’s his legacy

    Be thankful and not churlish !

    Try not to be whitefreaks

    And anyone who is South African (past or present) should declare it !

  11. Jimmy

    I ain’t dissing non ANC peoPle for not being paid up nelson members. I get that.

    Why does Samuel care about this issue or Canberra ?

    Too much skin in the game, methinks !

  12. feelthebern

    Mandela was the greatest man to ever live.
    If you say other wise, you are racist.

    I’ll defer to Randy Marsh for further comment.
    http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/209729/celebrate-good-obama

    Rest in peace, Madiba.

  13. Jimmy

    Abraham

    I think other South Africans self censor, for a variety of reasons.

  14. Token

    You forgot the end of this message from big gubbermint:

    Mandela was the greatest man to ever live.
    If you say other wise, you are racist.

    …or else the police will arrest you, seize and search your personnal computer, hold you in detention for at least 8 hours and put your fingerprints & DNA on file permanently if you query the divinity of the man.

  15. Abraham

    Jimmy,

    Have you ever been to South Africa other than to holiday and bask in the sun ….?

  16. Jimmy

    Never have claimed to. Why would I ?

    Abraham

    Declare now any SA connection

  17. Bruce

    The tearing of garments and rivers of tears is because Mr Mandela was a reasonably successful lefty.

    The left goes nutty when one of theirs kicks the bucket. Also they have few successes to celebrate, so when they have one they go even further over the top than usual.

    All religions want saints. Mandela was sainted by the progressive left a long time ago. Be prepared for a flood of worthy progressive organs being named the Mandela Memorial Lefty Organisation This and the MMLO That. To get in early I propose the Earth be renamed Madiba in his honour.

  18. Token

    Jimmy, if you don’t understand the question posed by Abraham, it is best not to push the matter.

  19. Token

    All religions want saints. Mandela was sainted by the progressive left a long time ago. Be prepared for a flood of worthy progressive organs being named the Mandela Memorial Lefty Organisation This and the MMLO That. To get in early I propose the Earth be renamed Madiba in his honour.

    The brilliant John O’Sullivan addresses the topic well in his article on the “Post-Christian Society”. One suspect he had this speech chambered and ready for this day, though he was not sure which of the lefty saints would be the perfect example of what he explains:

    But there are consequences to forgetting truths. One consequence is that while we instinctively want to preserve the morals and manners of the Christian tradition, we cannot quite explain or defend them intellectually. So we find ourselves seeking more contemporary (i.e., in practice, secular) reasons for preserving them or, when they decay completely, inventing regulations to mimic them.

    RTWT

  20. Jimmy

    The question is shit Token.

    I have the right to comment u tool.

    Are u also South African ?

    Call me wrong but I am starting to think a lot of Cats are SAs with issues. This will kill it.

    Prove me wrong, pls

  21. Token

    Jimmy, you have the nasty approach of a lefty with no values or moral standards trying to pretend to be “of the right”.

    We see them regularly, thinking they can “fake” the approach of the contributors. Your writing stinks of it.

    The fact is that the cartoon characterture the left uses to demonise people who vote based upon values is shows you have no understanding of the thesis that sits behind the philosophy of this blog.

  22. Token

    Bugger, that phone calls lead to the last paragraph to be incomplete.

    Take 2:

    The fact is that the cartoon characterture the left uses to demonise people who vote based upon values is fundementally built upon deliberate ignorance, and ultimately your writing shows you have no understanding of the thesis that sits behind the philosophy of this blog.

  23. Abraham

    Jimmy,

    You have absolutely no idea of the intricate and dynamic nature of South African politics. Yet you sound like an expert on South Africa. And what is it with this ‘declare your status’? I’m not HIV positive.

  24. Jimmy

    Tokes

    U r a dick. You are smoking something.. Values are something alien to you. I don’t understand your intervention. I don’t lionise Mandela
    I just think if you try and bring him down in a dickhead young liberal way you expose yourself. Yourchoice.

    Final Missive.

    South Africans

    Declare Yourselves !

  25. Abraham

    Obersturmbannfuhrer Jimmy … I solemnly declare my South Africanness.

  26. caveman

    Its what happens when peasants get hold of the reins. Churchill band Mandela comparison are worlds apart.

  27. Token

    I just think if you try and bring him down in a dickhead young liberal way you expose yourself.

    Like a lot of your postings, that makes no sense.

  28. Robert O.

    Certainly Mandela stopped S. Africa from being a bloodbath after apartheid and is universally respected for this but there are a lot of elder statesmen of equal merit. Do you think President Obama will go to Havana when Fidel’s time comes?

  29. Abraham

    Jimmy,

    What insignia would prefer us South Africans display on our clothing? Remember the yellow star ‘s taken.

  30. Jimmy

    Makes sense fuckwit, you want to get on that train be my guest,

    My only take on Mandela is that it could have been a bloodbath and wasn’t.

    Now Token, state if you are South African or not !

  31. Fleeced

    “Nelson Mandela – no Churchill”

    You’re just trying to stir up CL, aren’t you? :)

  32. Jimmy

    Abraham

    Up to you. I would suggest not wearing the star ! Like y’all a lot better that way !

  33. Gab

    Please stop feeding the troll.

  34. Token

    Now Token, state if you are South African or not !

    You’ve been here before “Jimmy”.

    That totalitarian approach with that belligerent writing style is distinctive – demanding and insulting in an attempt to intimidate when people see through your pathetic attempt to mimic what you don’t understand.

    The question is whether you are the oiled up tranny or one of the other fruitbats.

  35. Token

    Please stop feeding the troll.

    I’m ensuring that people like Abraham do not get fooled by the troll.

  36. Abraham

    I’m ensuring that people like Abraham do not get fooled by the troll.

    Token,

    We’ve all had the unfortunate pleasure of encountering Obersturmbannfuhrer Jimmy’s type. Universities, government departments, schools, unions et al are filled with his kind of abusive ‘expert’ type.

  37. Jimmy

    Yes or no fuckface ,!

    The reason for this question is clear.

    It’s not about Mandela.

    It’s about what you and the rest are, in the big government bosem now of Australia, pretending to be small government Libertarians.

    Gutless I say !

  38. Sinclair Davidson

    Jimmy – I’ve put you in auto-moderation until you get off the angry pills.

  39. entropy

    Abraham
    #1112241, posted on December 16, 2013 at 9:01 am
    Obersturmbannfuhrer Jimmy … I solemnly declare my South Africanness.

    We are all South Africans!+1

  40. Tekweni

    Generally we South Africans keep out of this sort of debate in public. We have plenty to say when with other South Africans. Most of us have family in SA who live with the real world of SA today and visits back to spend time with them keep us up to date with the situation. Unless you have been born and brought up in SA you really have no idea.

  41. Abraham

    We are all South Africans!+1

    Sssssshhhhhh … Obersturmbannfuhrer Jimmy might hear you. (sarc)

  42. Abraham

    Unless you have been born and brought up in SA you really have no idea.

    Spot on!!!

  43. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From Jimmy at 9:20 am:

    “It’s about what you and the rest are, in the big government bosem now of Australia”

    I was three threads away but I’m sure I heard someone mention bosomses.

    Has Sinclair introduced a Page Three girl to sustain us during the quiet of pre-Christmas?

  44. Jimmy

    Sinc

    Man up pls.

    Call ur Ow thing.

    I get it, btw

  45. Woolfe

    He prevented a bloodbath. That is his legacy. Surely that is enough?

    He was not perfect but It is a pity he did not serve two terms as the current administration is a corrupt shambles.

    South Africa is well on the slippery slope to join the rest of Africa but it will take a lot of time. Don’t forget it is (was?) a first world country. It has better roads, mobile phone system and banking system than Australia. It is a nuclear power and has (had) the bomb.

    It is also an extremely cheap place for us to holiday, fantastic scenery, beautiful game parks, great restaurants. Cape Town is still one of the the most beautiful cities in the world and is currently well run as the DA are in power there not the ANC.

    Corruption is rife, as an example a friend works in the construction industry and it is not uncommon for school tenders to be awarded, money allocated but school not built. Corrupt officials banking the funds. The only companies that gain are Range Rover, Mercedes and BMW. Very sad. Still a lot of good will in the people, all they want is running water, a roof and schools which the current regime is not providing. There are elections next year and the ANC will get in again.

    For the resident racist I declare that I have just returned from holiday in SA, and worked there between 1980 and 87. I also had > 14 relatives murdered in Auchwitz.

  46. james

    According to Jimmy anyone who does not worship at the Church of Mandela is a secret South African.

    Why would white South Africans have anything against Mandela Jimmy?

    I thought his victory brought in a golden age of rainbow children dancing equally together hand in hand under a rising sun.

    Or at least that’s what I got taught at school.

  47. Ant

    If Mandela was a Churchill, Obama wouldn’t have bothered going to South Africa.

  48. Sinclair Davidson

    Jimmy – man up to what?

    If you’re pissed off that Samuel dissed your kids school take it up with him on that thread.

  49. Abraham

    So Obersturnbannfuhrer Jimmy had his offspring indoctrinated in the People’s Republic of Canberra. Now that explains everything …

  50. boy on a bike

    Compared to Idi Amin and all the other fruitcakes, nutcases, megalomaniacs, looters, murderers and thieves that have run African countries since independence, Mandela was pretty good.

    The again, that’s like saying that Billy is a saint because he is the only junkie in Redfern that hasn’t overdosed or been arrested this month.

  51. YT

    I just came in to read some comments, and after reading the bilge that came from “Jimmy” I think I need a bath, or maybe even a decontamination shower.

  52. Walter Plinge

    I have the right to comment u tool. Are u also South African ?

    Never take seriously, afford respect to, or take any notice of someone who can’t write a simple sentence in standard English. Trash English equals zero credibility.

  53. Robert Blair

    I’m feeling a bit Seth Efrican this morning, and a lekka morning it is too … I might even get out the braai later on.

    Never been to SA in my life.

    South Africa has been good to me. Due to the economic incompetence of the current government the Rand is pathetically low, and unlikely to ever recover.

    But unlike other third world countries South Africa has many thousands of western-trained, native english speaking IT experts, all of whom understand western work values.
    This is NOT the case in India, the Philippines and Pakistan.

    I can (and do) hire top-notch South African software developers at third world rates.
    For my purposes one South African developer is worth three or four Indians.

    Right now I have three South Africans working for me and one Batswana. These guys will generally out-perform most Australian developers.

    In the New Year I am planning to expand and offer development services by these guys to a broader range of Australian companies.

  54. Abraham

    I can (and do) hire top-notch South African software developers at third world rates.

    Don’t let Hammy hear you exploiting the proletariat you evil capitalist. (sarc)

  55. Token

    I can (and do) hire top-notch South African software developers at third world rates.

    Part of the transformation of the workplace I am noting on the OT.

  56. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From Walter Plinge at 10:14 am:

    “Never take seriously, afford respect to, or take any notice of someone who can’t write a simple sentence in standard English. Trash English equals zero credibility.”

    I concur.

    The ignorant, uneducated, inarticulate – well, barely literate – self proclaimed fool lurching about this thread and a couple of others at the moment, barging and bumping into the hallway walls as a drunken lout – all bravery and blurt – is a classic case of someone who struggled through an acned fourteen and then ceased developing from the ears north.

  57. ella

    Mick,

    If I told Jimmy my husband fought the communist Cubans in SWA he would have exploded into total incoherence, so I resisted the temptation.

    I was outside Amanzimtoti shopping centre when one of Nelson’s bombs exploded. He didn’t care what race he killed or how old they were. Blowing the limbs off children was no problem, as I witnessed.

    I hope the communist creep rots in hell..

  58. Andrew

    20 years of Mandelas policies under ANC rule, what are his achievements? An economy in a mess, apartheid (the other way around now), corruption and dreadful conditions even for the ruling blacks.

    But please, let’s hear more about why Abbott666 hasn’t legislated away all our Problems in 4 weeks of parliament.

  59. A Fan

    Desmond Tutu is my preferred hero in SA because he has always been a man of peace. He is also a man with an unparralled capacity for forgiving and courageous enough to confront the ANC.
    He has had a truly remarkable life.

  60. Rococo Liberal

    20 years of Mandelas policies under ANC rule, what are his achievements? An economy in a mess, apartheid (the other way around now), corruption and dreadful conditions even for the ruling blacks.

    A brilliant summary.

    But of course we have to realsie that for the left real results don’t matter. For them it is all about seeming good, not actually doing good.Mandela is the perfect hero for them.

  61. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From Gab at 9:42 am:

    “Sooo something like this, Mick?”

    I will never trust you again Gabrielle, ever, ever, ever. My week was going ever so well until I looked at your link.

  62. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From ella at 11:24 am:

    “Mick,

    If I told Jimmy my husband fought the communist Cubans in SWA he would have exploded into total incoherence, so I resisted the temptation.

    I was outside Amanzimtoti shopping centre when one of Nelson’s bombs exploded. He didn’t care what race he killed or how old they were. Blowing the limbs off children was no problem, as I witnessed.

    I hope the communist creep rots in hell..”

    I have encountered many South Africans (and those from near by places) over decades, largely through coal mining and rugby and have, from them, a clear accounting of things I witnessed from afar as a younger man. I am impressed by their caution and restraint in discussing their experiences in their own country, including many who served their time in the armed forces.

    So much of what actually occurred is concealed in the selective rewriting of history and I understand your sentiments.

  63. Viva

    To be a revolutionary in the time of Mandela’s uprising, it would have been remarkable to anything other than a marxist. That was the blueprint. So the fact that Mandela transcended that ideology to embrace his race and class enemies is what makes him stand out from his contemporaries. Like Gorbachev, he smoothed the way for a tectonic shift avoiding much bloodshed and tears, and in the case of Gorbachev, the possiblity that the USSR would have gone down taking taking the rest of us with it. It is a shame that the capacity to act in such a way is deemed such a rarity amongst humanity that people such as these are elevated as saints rather than considered to be acting as any human being should.

  64. stackja

    The response to Mandela’s death has been nothing short of exceptional. To me it has been exaggerated.

    The Left always exaggerates.

    But beyond that, what is his legacy? South Africa remains poor and corrupt. Brutal killings and tribal wars threaten its stability.

    ANC rule is the problem.

    Let’s celebrate the memory of Mandela, but don’t exaggerate his importance in world affairs. Mandela was no Churchill.

    Mandela was a communist. Churchill despite his flaws was anti-communist.

  65. Bruce

    To be a revolutionary in the time of Mandela’s uprising, it would have been remarkable to anything other than a marxist.

    Viva – Mandela did good for his country by getting it to a pretty reasonable place without much bloodshed, albeit as a one party state.

    But Gorbachev he was not. To his death Mandela had always supported and always refused* to condemn his old revolutionary comrade and mass murderer Robert Mugabe. If Gorbachev is a Mandela he would have to be a public fan of Stalin or Kim Il Sung.

    You know the saying about knowing a man by the company he keeps? Well, Mandela kept interesting company.

    We can celebrate the good things and condemn the bad things.

    (* Under great pressure Mandela did eventually condemn “the tragic failure of leadership in our neighbouring Zimbabwe”. Weasel words were as close as he ever came.)

  66. Token

    Mandela was a communist. Churchill despite his flaws was anti-communist.

    Gandhi beat the British empire through a consistent campaign of non-violence and as a result the country of India has not been plagued by the violence that is the legacy of countries with violent revolutions.

  67. Struth

    I have always said I know not alot about South Africa and it’s politics because I haven’t been there. I have said it many times to Australian “experts” on remote community aboriginal issues who’s only knowledge of aboriginals is what their city teachers have told them, who also know nothing.
    Therefore from an outsiders perspective all I can really conclude is that he must have been quite left wing or the world would not have just gone into the profound grandstanding perception orientated false adulation and placed this guy who was just a human like the rest of us, up there with the saints. The media would not have barely reported his death if he was right wing. So the facts to me as an outsider, he must have been a luvvie of the left. We’ll get the same reaction when Bono or a boomtown rat dies. Whatever good or bad they’ve done will be of naught consideration.

  68. James B

    I think it shows how fucked we are, when so-called “conservatives” seem to think he was a great man.

    A communist black nationalist terrorist is a “great man” according to you.

  69. Jannie

    I have refrained from commenting thus far. Most white South Africans, Afrikaners included have real respect and even affection for Mandela, because of the conciliatory approach he took post 1994. Whites had been conditioned to expect him to be a bloodthirsty terrorist, and were surprised to find he was in fact not a monster. That does not mean he is seen as an angel, but he was on the right side.

    I dont believe Mandela was a terrorist, though Umkhonto was committed to terroristic tactics post the Rivonia trials of 1962, and committed a number of terrorist attacks from the mid 1970s. Before this the ANCs tactics and policy were to attack intrastructure only, and avoid civilian deaths. As far as I know, Mandela was in prison when Umkhonto changed its policy and decided to include civilian targets – probably in the mid 1970s. Mandela was not part of this decision, though it probably had some form of consensus amongst the ANC leadership. However, its not fair to sheet this home to Mandela.

    To describe Mandela as a communist is simply delusional. He is of the Xhosa aristocracy, and did not need The Party as a means for personal advancement. The ANC’s alliance with the SACP was really a pragmatic relationship, which provided the ANC with support from the Eastern Bloc that was not forthcoming from the democratic West. No doubt plenty of ANC street level supporters were willing to kill in the name of communism, but that was not how the leadership saw it. Most radical blacks drifted to the PAC, but the SACP remained institutionally committed to the ANC.

    Its probably true that Mandela did a bit of toytoying singing Kill the Boer. He had a broad church to play to, and was a politician palying both ends against the middle.

    He was not perfect, but he was literally a Godsend. South Africa avoided the mother of all wars, that would have destroyed Southern Africa and millions of people. But de Klerks role in this is often forgotten. Also forgotten is the great sacrifice the Afrikaner people made for peace. The Afrikaners gave up their birthright, which they had fought for for over 300 years, to others. They are now a lost, broken people, and are dying as a nation. Hopefully history will one day recognise what they sacrificed in order to achive peace. They did many bad things in the struggle, but in the end they made a great sacrifice for peace, they probably sacrificed a lot more than Mandela.

  70. Jessie

    The South African Communist Party begs to differ with your analysis of Mandela Jannie.

  71. Nato

    That O’Sullivan link of Tokens was so articulate. A non-white, non-Christian with enough judgement calls in line with CofE values is so hard to find. If only Madiba were a woman!

    Declaring that I know a SA ‘white’ who fled post-apartheid crime and didn’t care about any of the politics. His actions backed up his words.

    I also knew a ‘coloured’ SA bloke who probably would have only passed on apartheid or Hon Justice Bromberg standards. His parents fled apartheid SA & he hated whites. His race war was united with the battle of the sexes. Seduce the white girl and CRUSH HER SPIRIT.

    Something about that country bred magnetic personalities. Love ‘em both.

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