More evidence the AHRC is of the left and for the left

Just look at how the Australian Human Rights Commission is described and defended.

Here is Richard Cooke making the concession at The Monthly (emphasis added):

Whatever the merits of his appointment, it’s an ace piece of industrial strength trolling by George Brandis, parachuting a culture warrior right behind enemy lines like that.

Here is Mark Fletcher at SBS:

The Australian Human Rights Commission is an ideological organisation established specifically to meet a particular policy goal. Namely, we want to ensure that minorities have the best possible chance to have their voices included in public discussion. We want to make sure that the mainstream — either willfully or (far more commonly) out of ignorance and disinterest — don’t trample on people who can’t fight back on equal terms.

The notion that all Australians should have equal human rights and equal protections under the rule of law is simply foreign to progressive thought.

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134 Responses to More evidence the AHRC is of the left and for the left

  1. stackja

    The notion that all Australians should have equal human rights and equal protections under the rule of law is simply foreign to progressive thought.

    So all Australians do have equal human rights and equal protections under the rule of law! End of discussion! Abolish the Australian Human Rights Commission!

  2. Wolfman

    Orwell said it best:

    “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

  3. Rabz

    FFS – leftists are so staggeringly stupid they can’t even mount a defence of the infuriating, destructive lobotomised parasites guzzling our taxes without making their real agenda clear.

    Which is of course, divide and rule.

    Not any more, dickheads – you’re too stupid to tell me how to think and you always have been.

  4. Gordon of 2902

    “… all Australians should have equal human rights and equal protections …” But some are more equal than others.

  5. ChrisPer

    The AHRC is a huge opportunity for the Govt and us of the rational part to communicate what we are really about. The contrast between human rights as exploited in activist thinking, and the human rights in the dream of a western liberal society is a potential teaching tool that could be used bit by bit to entrench liberal values as workth defending, in the public mind.

    Of course, we doubt that is likely to happen – short of another Mark Steyn or Ezra Levant doing it as free enterprise – because there is little sign of the Libs being prepared to lead on they real values.

  6. Andrew of Randwick

    Namely, we want to ensure that minorities have the best possible chance to have their voices included in public discussion.We want to make sure that the mainstream …. don’t trample on people who can’t fight back on equal terms

    It appears Mark Fletcher at SBS has many misconceptions about what the AHRC actually does, or should do. But let’s put aside that for a moment and consider his closing paragraph – which should encapsulate his distilled and cognisant arguments.
    1) How is a minority defined and what are the admission tests?
    2) What public discussion is are voices missing from? What is a public discussion? What is a voice? How is missing a bad thing?
    3) How does the mainstream trample on people? Define mainstream. Define trample. Define the group ‘people who can’t fight back’ – I assume he means minorities (see 1 above).
    .
    The AHRC actual job:…..
    - The Age Discrimination Act 2004
    - The Disability Discrimination Act 1992
    - The Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986 following international instruments: Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), Discrimination in Respect of Employment and Occupation (ILO 111), Rights of Persons with Disabilities, Rights of the Child, Rights of Disabled Persons, Rights of Mentally Retarded Persons, and Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief. In addition, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner has specific functions to monitor the human rights of Indigenous people.
    - The Racial Discrimination Act 1975
    - The Sex Discrimination Act 1984
    .
    As you can see there is no mention of ‘minorities’, no mention of ‘voices’, no mention of ‘public discussion’, no mention of ‘mainstream’, no mention of ‘trample’, no mention of ‘fight back on equal terms’.

  7. What might those rights be, other than to yell “fire” in a crowded theatre?

    I would interested in hearing specific examples of rights have been denied. Similarly, I would be interested in hearing cases where peoples have taken responsibility to protect or enhance the civil and political rights of others, especially those with whom you disagree, or were in effect, voiceless.

    The Devil needs a skilled advocate, but it is a fundamental principle that he should have on.

  8. Sinclair Davidson

    ahhh – the old calling fire in a theatre to restrict free speech furphy.

    David Boaz from the Libertarian primer:

    When we understand free speech this way, we see what’s wrong with Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes’s famous statement that free speech rights cannot be absolute because there is no right to falsely shout ‘Fire!” in a crowded theater. Who would be shouting “Fire”? Possibly the owner, or one of his agents, in which case the owner has defrauded his customers: he sold them tickets to a play or a movie and then disrupted the show, not to mention endangered their lives. If not the owner, then one of his customers, who is violating the terms of his contract; his ticket entitles him to enjoy the show, not to disrupt it. The falsely-shouting-fire-in-a-crowded-theater argument is no reason to limit the right of free speech; it’s an illustration of the way that property rights solve problems and of the need to protect and enforce them.

  9. Makka

    Rabz,

    The repeated notion that the Left is stupid serves no benefit to us in the war being waged. That is not to say that the left are not stupid but they are most certainly smart enough to be better organised than the Conservative/Libertarian forces.

    If the Right were to view them as something much more dangerous than mere morons, perhaps the Right(eous) might get serious about eradicating them and their influences when the opportunity to do so arises. Like now. Currently, these cretins are not feeling any real pain, a sure indicator that the Right is failing in it’s job.

  10. A Lurker

    Namely, we want to ensure that minorities have the best possible chance to have their voices included in public discussion.

    Their voices? Not their voices, but rather the propaganda that the Progressive/Socialist Left have brainwashed them to believe, and the words that the Progressive/Socialist Left have put in their mouths, for the Progessive/Socialist Left desire that minorities should remain victims, so they can remain the ‘useful idiots’ of the Left.

    We want to make sure that the mainstream — either willfully or (far more commonly) out of ignorance and disinterest — don’t trample on people who can’t fight back on equal terms.

    No, they want the mainstream controlled, brainwashed, being good little plebs working hard, not rocking the boat, and being taxed to the max so that the Progessive/Socialist Left can continue to utterly remould our country and society into their warped, corrupt and malignant nightmare.

  11. Fisky

    What might those rights be, other than to yell “fire” in a crowded theatre?

    The actual ruling you are referring to with the quote “fire in a crowded theatre” was from that of a reactionary right-wing judge sending anti-war campaigners to prison during WWI. Opposing the draft was analogous to shouting “fire in a crowded theatre”, according to the judge. I’m genuinely perplexed that the Left consider this a worthy precedent.

  12. Fisky

    It is certainly puzzling that the Left are positively citing a legal ruling that had Left-wing anti-war protestors thrown in prison.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/

    But those who quote Holmes might want to actually read the case where the phrase originated before using it as their main defense. If they did, they’d realize it was never binding law, and the underlying case, U.S. v. Schenck, is not only one of the most odious free speech decisions in the Court’s history, but was overturned over 40 years ago.

    First, it’s important to note U.S. v. Schenck had nothing to do with fires or theaters or false statements. Instead, the Court was deciding whether Charles Schenck, the Secretary of the Socialist Party of America, could be convicted under the Espionage Act for writing and distributing a pamphlet that expressed his opposition to the draft during World War I. As the ACLU’s Gabe Rottman explains, “It did not call for violence. It did not even call for civil disobedience.”

    The Court’s description of the pamphlet proves it to be milder than any of the dozens of protests currently going on around this country every day:

    It said, “Do not submit to intimidation,” but in form, at least, confined itself to peaceful measures such as a petition for the repeal of the act. The other and later printed side of the sheet was headed “Assert Your Rights.”
    The crowded theater remark that everyone remembers was an analogy Holmes made before issuing the court’s holding. He was explaining that the First Amendment is not absolute. It is what lawyers call dictum, a justice’s ancillary opinion that doesn’t directly involve the facts of the case and has no binding authority. The actual ruling, that the pamphlet posed a “clear and present danger” to a nation at war, landed Schenk in prison and continued to haunt the court for years to come.

    Two similar Supreme Court cases decided later the same year–Debs v. U.S. and Frohwerk v. U.S.–also sent peaceful anti-war activists to jail under the Espionage Act for the mildest of government criticism. (Read Ken White’s excellent, in-depth dissection of these cases.) Together, the trio of rulings did more damage to First Amendment as any other case in the 20th century.

  13. Tintarella di Luna

    I just love Lisping Lizzie Broderick’s little paean to women in caring roles and still even with all those earnest words they are the group with the lowest well-being index ever recorded by the Australian Insitute for Health and Welfare, many live in a poverty that Lisping Lizzie will never know, and many are more than likely to be living in poverty for all of their lives with a broken marriage/relationship behind her, no chance for remunerative employment = no chance for super nest egg or build any kind of asset base . Her listening tour armed her with so much to eradicate domestic violence.

    She’s made such a difference to my life.

  14. Fisky

    Left-wingers celebrating the work of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is nearly as bad as Bob Carr calling Dred Scott “a very good decision”. Embarrassing.

  15. C.L.

    I think Carr called it a “great decision.”

  16. struth

    Yes and those left wing public servants get to decide what a minority is.
    It is anyone who is NOT a white middle aged male taxpayer working in private enterprise.
    (sounds ridiculous but true)
    That actually makes him the true minority.

    Anyway, the point with this article and others now is they are basically declaring that right wingers should not be allowed to be in these departments.
    This goes back to being able to brainwash the dummies that the right wingers are evil.
    Right wing is opposite to left wing.
    Stalin and hitler where socialists (though different types) but left wing.
    That is why the argument about what is right wing is so important.
    Many on this blog are unsure.
    We need to keep it basic and fight to make sure people understand that right wing is about freedom from government from the top down.
    The left have successfully changed it and lobbed one of their greatest evils (hitler) over to our side.
    This is in the back of dumb lefties minds.
    White racist nazis that are still around and anything evil they class as right wing. They just state it like it’s fact. Hitler was evil and therefore how can you put someone from the extreme right in the HRC? Both extreme right wingers, according to lefties.
    We have allowed them to change history and lie.
    They are still doing it with stolen gen, welcome to country and all sorts of shit.
    Right wing is libertarian. Right wing is about indiviual rights, as is libertarian.
    They misrepresent us as to what we really are and deceitfully pretend to take the moral high ground.
    You will never successfully beat this bullshit until you acknowledge you may yourselves be a little confused as to what right wing is, and realise you can’t rebrand yourself,to fight this, and you don’t need to.
    Just know you stand for freedom, that’s what right wing is, and ALL of the evils from governments have been by left wing governments and totalitarian regimes. (one in the same really) Government from the top down.
    In all of history it has never changed.
    As proof these days, the further the US government slides to the left, the further the people fall into dispair.

  17. struth

    Just to further my point.
    If you asked a hundred school kids if hitler was right or left, they’d say extreme right. If they knew who he was at all.
    If you pushed the point everywhere, that Hitler was a socialist and made sure school kids knew it, and it became general knowledge, SBS would pull their at least twice weekly doco on Hitler very quickly.

  18. Louis Hissink

    These idiots don’t seem to understand that democracy is the dictatorship of the majority – don’t like being one of the minority? Then don’t support democracy – and then demonstrate you have the maturity to suggest an alternative.

  19. Gutho

    Namely, we want to ensure that minorities have the best possible chance to have their voices included in public discussion
    “The smallest minority is the individual”
    Ayn Rand

  20. wreckage

    di Luna; it is a known fact that people like me only reject the government’s administration of welfare because we hate people, not because it has consistently failed the people who need it most.

    That’s just taken as read, and from there it’s easy to knock our arguments down, since we are obviously evil and therefore our intent is obviously evil. And we are proven evil by our intent, albeit a secret one, but one which the highly functional psychics on the left can discern at a mere glance. Since they know our intent is evil, they know we are evil, which neatly proves that we are evil. No loose ends in that logic, it’s neat as a pin.

  21. Tintarella di Luna

    No loose ends in that logic, it’s neat as a pin.

    Yes it sums up the leftist mind neatly, no loose ends, heavens no lest the who thing unravel, like a knitted kangaroo.

  22. Forgetting about Right or Left, perhaps it’s worth considering the role of the AHRC in the field of disabilities.
    The first question, of course, is whether it is necessary.
    These are a few examples of the behavior of some that I’ve come across towards kids with disabilities during the many years that I’ve been working both as a service provider and a pro bono advocate. They are the exception – but they happen –
    1. A wealthy private school charging a parent for attendant care of a lad with ataxia at school on the basis of 30 hours per week. The actual in-class care took up 20 hours, and the (male) carer operated as a soccer coach for the remainder of the time, paid for (unwittingly) by the parent.
    2. Another private boarding school refusing the enrollment of a boy with cerebral palsy, the youngest of a family of four. All his brothers had boarded and had been successful academically and as sportsmen. The grounds for refusal were that they had a policy not to board boys who weren’t independent. This young man was independent to the point of being able to round up cattle on a quad bike, and help his dad build and repair fences.
    3. A rural school giving a year five girl – an amputee – a “fail” for PE because she couldn’t skip. She was smart, determined, and would try anything. She was able to complete all other units (11 out of 12) in the assessment. The school refused to remove skipping from the assessment on the grounds that it would be unfair to the other students.
    4. A state high school refusing to hold a year 12 graduation ceremony in the body of a school auditorium rather than on a stage, so that a girl could graduate with her peer group of twelve years.
    These are just a few examples of situations where interventions from the AHRC altered the outcome for the complainants.
    Were these kids and their families deserving of fair treatment?
    What remedy would have been available without a low-key (and relatively cheap) complaint to the Commission?

  23. WhaleHunt Fun

    suggest an alternative.

    Easy. One vote for each landowning citizen over the age of 30 with no criminal convictions and enjoying no current publicly funded welfare
    That’s an alternative to democracy.
    There is sure to be better options, but disenfranchising leeches parasites and lowlifes would be a start.

  24. stackja

    Fisky
    #1125137, posted on December 27, 2013 at 3:44 pm
    Left-wingers celebrating the work of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is nearly as bad as Bob Carr calling Dred Scott “a very good decision”. Embarrassing.
    C.L.
    #1125138, posted on December 27, 2013 at 3:45 pm
    I think Carr called it a “great decision.”

    As I remember Dred Scott was about property rights.

  25. Tel

    Numbers, you bring up some interesting points, in the case of 1 and 2 clearly there’s a principle that people should be honest in their dealings and in their assessment of others. In the case of 3 though you are arguing the opposite that dishonesty is OK when the AHRC says it’s OK. I kind of have a problem with the inconsistency of that.

    It is indeed unfair to other students if some part of the assessment is arbitrarily removed for some and not for others. That’s the whole point of an assessment.

  26. Peter56

    Until I see those beautiful black kids living safely on those disgusting communities, all children living safely all over Australia, the AHRC is a joke. A very sick joke. If they had to go after the blackfellas their mantra would be, ‘But what about the rights of the disgusting black men’? Disgusting black men are my words, these toerags would more than likely call them noble savages.

  27. WhaleHunt Fun

    And these schools were cowed by the whining of the AHRC. Disgusting. Would not have been my old school. Public shaming of inappropriate behaviour by the school would have effected justice without the need for the fascists of the AHRC, the sort that support the lowlife scum illegally entering Australia, to be listened to.

  28. John Comnenus

    Numbers,
    The family in question could have come to my boys school. Through the school fees of all the parents the school provides first class disability class room, facilities and teaching. It is part of the Catholic duty to help the less fortunate, as practiced by our school.

  29. Tom

    Once again, people get sucked into arguing with a troll. No links posted even though all matters referred to are on the public record. In other words, he’s lying about the facts. This particular trollscum lies about everything all the time.

  30. Tintarella di Luna

    A wealthy private school charging a parent for attendant care of a lad with ataxia at school on the basis of 30 hours per week. The actual in-class care took up 20 hours, and the (male) carer operated as a soccer coach for the remainder of the time, paid for (unwittingly) by the parent.

    On this point alone the Human Rights Commission is a pissant– why the hell did the family have to pay for the attendant care? because the effing government discriminates on the basis of choice in schooling against students with disabilities in the private system. Still today even with the Gonski rubbish students with disabilities in mainstream private schools do not receive like-for-like funding as their peers in non-government schools — this has been my gripe with the Human Rights Commission all the examples of the HRC intervention are individual why does this kind of thing have to be fought over and over again individually? Because the Human Rights Commission is a useless rent-seeking collection of feather-bedders who will trumpet kudos on a case by case basis but wont push for the system to accommodate the general from the individual — I guess that’s how it continues to justify it’s existence by not forcing change for all but just for some who have the wherewithal to complain.

  31. Tintarella di Luna

    I mean their peers in government schools

  32. Tintarella di Luna

    Once again, people get sucked into arguing with a troll.

    As a rule I don’t engage with trolls numerical or otherwise but I made an exception in this case.

    I wrote to the Human Rights Commission many years ago when Sev Ozdovski was the acting Commissioner about the inequity and discrimination against students with disabilities in non-governments schools. My complaint was given over to a nitwit who responded to me talking about cricket pitches and rifle ranges, when I was talking about charity schools (read private schools) which provided education for some of the most disabled children in the country I said it was disrespectful and affronted the dignity of students with disabilities to continue to allow the government off the hook while allowing these children to be treated as charity cases and not as part of the general education system.

    Remembering that the education of children with disabilities was almost exclusively the undertaking of the Christian churches and Charities, i.e. the private system, the government recognised that responsibility very late in the piece.

  33. Menai Pete

    The AHRC was set up so that Australia could comply with The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). That simple role has been usurped by the usual band of left wing wankers who want to fuck with peoples lives and freedoms.

  34. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Numbers, your points could all be addressed by negotiation rather than compulsion. Also, the ‘rights’ of disabled people have to be considered with some thought given to the traditions and rights of others. Why for instance expect a school to alter its graduation on a podium tradition for just one student, which may the have altered the experience for the whole watching audience? The legal system already has anti-discrimination provisions and in your first example sheer fraud is apparently taking place.

  35. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    In other words we don’t need an interfering AHRC.

  36. Tintarella di Luna

    In other words we don’t need an interfering AHRC.

    No but if the Australian Human Rights Commission sought to ensure that peoples rights were protected it’d be a good thing. It would have had plenty of work just looking at the real discriminations and breaches of rights for every day citizens but every day citizens are just pedestrian fodder, not exotic enough for the Australian Human Rights Commission so the AHRC went into the grievance manufacturing business, a sort of re-imagining of human rights to give the Commission the elitist tweak. Useless pack of leftist urgers. Abolish.Now but Tomorrow will do.

  37. wreckage

    No but if the Australian Human Rights Commission sought to ensure that peoples rights were protected it’d be a good thing

    A call centre with proper IT and some consultants on the payroll would do a far better job. The AHRC is a pointless waste.

  38. No links posted even though all matters referred to are on the public record
    None were on the public record.
    Complaints that are settled through negotiation without a formal hearing are deliberately kept off the public record for obvious reasons.
    Numbers, your points could all be addressed by negotiation rather than compulsion
    They were – in each of these cases the schools accepted the Commissioner’s findings and agreed with the recommendations.
    Why for instance expect a school to alter its graduation on a podium tradition for just one student, which may the have altered the experience for the whole watching audience?
    It’s about what is “reasonable”.
    It is hardly unreasonable for all students to be treated the same – viz – all be handed their awards in the same place at the same time.
    On this point alone the Human Rights Commission is a pissant– why the hell did the family have to pay for the attendant care? because the effing government discriminates on the basis of choice in schooling against students with disabilities in the private system.
    The school was already receiving a bulk commonwealth grant for the supported care of this student. The parent was not apprised of this – when it came out in the negotiation he was told that it was none of his business.
    In my book, it was a clear case of fraud, but the parent didn’t want to make an issue of it and was happy with an apology and a refund of fees so that the lad could continue to go to school with his friends.

  39. Sinclair Davidson

    1735099 – the problem is this; I’m not convinced that a federal body is necessary to prevent fraud and stupidity.

  40. 1735099 – the problem is this; I’m not convinced that a federal body is necessary to prevent fraud and stupidity.
    Fair enough. Care to develop an alternative?

  41. It is indeed unfair to other students if some part of the assessment is arbitrarily removed for some and not for others. That’s the whole point of an assessment.
    Using that logic it would be completely fair to assess a totally blind student on his capacity to read text to be certain that other students weren’t disadvantaged…..

  42. Sinclair Davidson

    Fraud is best dealt with through the court system that already exists and stupidity is dealt with via social mechanisms such as naming and shaming. In your examples I don’t understand why those individuals couldn’t engage in self-help. I’m particularly surprised that a federal body had standing to intervene.

  43. Motelier

    Using that logic it would be completely fair to assess a totally blind student on his capacity to read text to be certain that other students weren’t disadvantaged…..

    Why would a blind student be assessed on their ability read text? I would have thought that the blind student would have been assessed on reading Braille.

  44. JohnA

    struth #1125156, posted on December 27, 2013 at 4:10 pm

    Yes and those left wing public servants get to decide what a minority is.
    It is anyone who is NOT a white Anglo-Saxon church-going Christian middle aged male taxpayer working in private enterprise.
    (sounds ridiculous but true)

    FTFY

  45. In your examples I don’t understand why those individuals couldn’t engage in self-help.
    Mostly because they are afraid of figures of authority, or they believe that their children would suffer if they made a complaint.
    In most cases the mere presence of the legislation and the existence of the agency precludes much of the discriminatory behavior.
    Believe me – it exists (the behavior I mean).
    If ignored – avoided – in my experience a kind of regression to the lowest denominator occurs.
    Sadly the world has changed – I don’t pretend to understand why.
    When I was young you settled a disagreement with fists out the back of the janitor’s shed.
    When someone was knocked down, that was the end of it.
    Today, the boot goes in, or knives are drawn.
    Regretfully naming and shaming doesn’t cut it these days.

  46. Why would a blind student be assessed on their ability read text? I would have thought that the blind student would have been assessed on reading Braille.
    Again, applying the logic suggested above, the use of Braille would mean that the blind student is being treated differently.

  47. ChrisPer

    Fair enough. Care to develop an alternative?

    The cases you raised are worth 20 MILLION dollars a year to resolve?

    At leaast, unlike the Canadian equivalents, we dont have star chambers extorting go-way money from small businesses and individuals for head-scarf-wearing grievance entrepreneurs – or do we?

  48. Sinclair Davidson

    Sure it exists – why don’t people open their mouths? Are they sheep or slaves?

  49. Tintarella di Luna

    The school was already receiving a bulk commonwealth grant for the supported care of this student.

    and what was the amount of the bulk care package of the commonwealth pray tell? any such package would have covered only a portion of care and certainly not on par with what a similar student would have received in a government school when the state would have been paying the balance of 80% if it were NSW. The school was in the wrong in any event and the parents could have named and shamed but I take it they named and shammed instead?

    And I agree that it is not OK if one child is left out of an event simply because they are disabled because then that condones discrimination based on disability. Times have changed in that regard and we are talking about students who have been together for their academic school life so the disability of that student was part of that school life – truth be told it is the thoughtlessness of the organisers that has to be addressed it’s got nothing to do with tradition as such, but more to do with thoughtlessness.

    E.g. a friend’s son was captain of the cricket team (he is in a wheelchair) but when the photos were taken the coach (thoughtless fellow) forgot about the captain’s disability and organised an inaccessible locations, however that was put to rights quickly and without a fuss when it was pointed out. It is not OK to leave out a child because of a physical disability and I think time and again people just forget about the disability and don’t see the wheelchair or physical aid, then reality bites.

    No comment I note however on why the AHRC is happy to go on case-by-case instead of addressing these anomalies systemically then?

  50. Motelier

    Again, applying the logic suggested above, the use of Braille would mean that the blind student is being treated differently.

    I would have thought that reading text and reading Braille would be weighted academically equal.

    Or have I missed something?

  51. Sure it exists – why don’t people open their mouths? Are they sheep or slaves?
    As a rule Sinc, I try to avoid binary judgements.
    We are all individuals, I guess, so our motives to act or to roll over are specific to each of us.
    Once, a long time ago, when I was young and ill advised, I rolled over.
    I will never do that again.

  52. Tintarella di Luna

    Again, applying the logic suggested above, the use of Braille would mean that the blind student is being treated differently.

    You are being deliberately obtuse, so that would mean reading glasses would have to go, or coloured lenses, etc…. reading is reading whether Braille or text, it’s still text – now that’s positive discrimination.

  53. Tintarella di Luna

    the janitor’s shed

    so you went to school in the US is that right?

  54. Or have I missed something?
    Frankly – in many cases, it’s seen as unimportant, or “just too much trouble”.
    Maybe that’s the most convincing rationale for the existence of the Commission, or something like it.

  55. Brett_McS

    Rabz: ‘You’re too stupid to tell me how to think”.

    Got the T-Shirt?

    http://www.hollywoodloser.com/shirts/5feetFury.html

  56. Peter56

    Numbers, you are just being an obtuse idiot, just because you can. But you do it so very well. Kudos to you.
    And Tinta, I don’t wish to sound harsh, but just what does a kid in a wheelchair do out on the cricket field? I realise these days that schools do all these sorts of things to cater for everybody, disabled or not, black or white, but that is just ridiculous. Unless of course they are only playing pretend cricket, like most sports at school these days, where scores are not recorded, as we wouldn’t want to traumatise the little preciouses if they are on the losing side.
    Yeah, a great way to show the kids what happens in the real world, like when they apply for a job and get turned down.

  57. wreckage

    Sadly the world has changed – I don’t pretend to understand why.
    When I was young you settled a disagreement with fists out the back of the janitor’s shed.

    Have you considered that part of the problem is people feel they can’t act without Big Authoritative Intervention? And that conversely, people know they don’t have to respond to complaints unless compelled by Big Authoritative Intervention?

    You can’t cure learned helplessness with more learned helplessness, as any mental health professional will tell you, if, for example, you know someone who works extensively in the field of re-learning coping skills, and who tells you a great deal insofar as they can without violating confidentiality. Just an example, off the top of my head :)

    (Aside: Huge, complex systems with formalities for everything favour and empower sociopaths, they don’t repel them, they attract them. I know a few sociopaths and I can tell you that for sure.)

    Would principals or teachers insist on skipping for legless kids if they were answerable to their community rather than to check-boxes on forms?

    Numbers: thanks for really engaging in this discussion, I can see it’s actually of interest and importance to you. Arguing is fun, but an actual discussion affords more opportunities for learning; so thank-you.

  58. Motelier

    Frankly – in many cases, it’s seen as unimportant, or “just too much trouble”.
    Maybe that’s the most convincing rationale for the existence of the Commission, or something like it.

    So maybe I am wrong here, but, wouldn’t the ability to communicate in a modern society be more important than any perceived slight?

  59. banz

    “1735099 – the problem is this; I’m not convinced that a federal body is necessary to prevent fraud and stupidity.
    Fair enough. Care to develop an alternative?”

    No numbers I dont, want to create a whole new legal structure, perhaps a federal body to oversee it, thats a leftist answer. He answered you numbers, fraud, take it to the police, stupidity learn. You know the world is not always a fair place, perhaps you should accept that rather than whining about every injustice.

  60. and what was the amount of the bulk care package of the commonwealth pray tell?
    Sufficient to cover the employment of a TA for 15 hours per week.
    In Queensland, a student with a similar level of impairment in a state school would attract exactly the same level of additional support.
    I am unfamiliar with the NSW situation, but given these grants are federally funded, I’d be surprised if it was any different.

  61. wreckage

    Yeah, from my understanding, Numbers, there’s state funding as well.

  62. Brett_McS

    That the AHRC was meant to be an exclusive lefty sand-pit was made obvious, if it wasn’t before, by their hysterical reaction to the appointment of a conservative/libertarian.

    What, no welcoming and celebration of diversity?!?!

  63. Tintarella di Luna

    Peter56

    And Tinta, I don’t wish to sound harsh, but just what does a kid in a wheelchair do out on the cricket field?

    Not harsh and a good question and I have a really good answer. The kid was a friggin’ genius at cricket, a kind of savant, he captained the team and did very well. What that kid doesn’t know about cricket you can shove up a gnat’s fundament, so he played his part in a real way, he would never have been part of anything contrived. He used to play wheelchair football too – you know murder ball but left the state so had to play what he could. He wants to be a sports commentator, which isn’t a bad ambition given some of what passes for commentary these days.

  64. banz

    Frankly – in many cases, it’s seen as unimportant, or “just too much trouble”.
    Maybe that’s the most convincing rationale for the existence of the Commission, or something like it.

    See numbers, I am staggered, you said – “…in many cases, it’s seen as unimportant, or “just too much trouble”.

    Now a person with common sense would accept that, but no, you want to establish a commission at taxpayer expense to right these subtle slights and not so subtle. What a waste of money and time, more parasites feeding off taxpayers, more regulations, more enforcement, numbers do you think that maybe we should all have a carer, paid for by the taxpayers and debt to make sure we are never slighted, tuck us into bed in the evening, what do you think?

  65. Tintarella di Luna

    I’d be surprised if it was any different.

    it is different in NSW and I am pretty sure it is different in Qld for students in non-government schools and remembering the state component – the student with disabilities in the non-government school is always worse off and will continue to be in the mainstream even when Labor’s much vaunted Gonski is implemented.

  66. Tel

    Using that logic it would be completely fair to assess a totally blind student on his capacity to read text to be certain that other students weren’t disadvantaged…..

    So using your logic if students are being assessed on their ability to paint in the style of various famous old masters, the blind student should be given the same grade as everyone else, because it would be unfair to admit that this is just an activity that blind people are not good at.

  67. numbers do you think that maybe we should all have a carer
    All children should.
    Variously called Mum, Dad, or something modern.
    Most adults do.
    Variously called husbands, wives or partners.
    We are, after all, a social species.
    Donne put it well -
    No man is an island,
    Entire of itself,
    Every man is a piece of the continent,
    A part of the main.
    If a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less.
    As well as if a promontory were.
    As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
    Or of thine own were:
    Any man’s death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.

  68. banz

    @ Numbers

    I got it, you give the blind kid a job, and also the kid in the wheelchair, no taxpayer funding though.

  69. banz

    first come the poets, then the marxists..

    collectivism, jesus, even in poetry.

  70. Andrew of Randwick

    1735099 at 4:29 pm seems believe a ‘big brother’ is required to right society’s ills and unfairness.

    1. A wealthy private school charging a parent when the carer operated as a soccer coach for the remainder of the time (10 hours per week), paid for (unwittingly) by the parent.

    First stop for family: reimbursement, small claims tribunal, solicitor, police

    2. Another private boarding school refusing the enrollment of a boy

    A private institution can do what it wants, otherwise it is not private.

    3. A rural school giving a year five girl – an amputee – a “fail” for PE because she couldn’t skip.

    Yes she failed PE.

    4. A state high school refusing to hold a year 12 graduation ceremony in the body of a school auditorium rather than on a stage

    A ceremony is normally done on a stage.
    .

    “interventions from the AHRC altered the outcome for the complainants”

    And you think that is a good thing?
    1) Police were prevented from investigating an alleged fraud
    2) If you don’t like what a private company does are you suggesting we should have state control of all commerce.
    3) Just more Orwellian doublespeak in the cause of seeming to be caring. Lets not have any objective tests as it will offend those that do not pass.
    4) Let’s not have the graduation at all – because it hurts the feelings of those that didn’t – their rights needs to be recognised. Why is this any more perverse than your quoted example.
    .
    The Americans have expressed it best – you have the ‘right to pursue happiness’, not the right to be happy.

  71. So using your logic
    That’s not my logic.
    It makes great common sense simply not to assess the unassessable.
    If you want to argue that this adjustment disadvantages able bodied kids, go right ahead.
    You’d be the first I’ve encountered in 40 years in the field to do so, but that’s OK.

  72. Tel

    I got it, you give the blind kid a job, and also the kid in the wheelchair, no taxpayer funding though.

    The blind kid should get a job as a bus driver. It would be totally unfair to knock him back for a license with the highly discriminatory reason that he can’t see the road. The kid in the wheelchair would obviously get a job as a removalist, based on his school report where he was getting excellent results in the hurdles and pole vaulting.

  73. Tintarella di Luna

    numbers do you think that maybe we should all have a carer
    All children should.
    Variously called Mum, Dad, or something modern.

    But without the natural authority that comes with being Mum and Dad because the leftists have undermined it on the basis of rights and on the basis that the answer to who’s your daddy is: the State

    something modern? – oh, you mean partner one and partner two or parent one and parent two, or biological mother, birth mother, biological father, something along that modernity?

  74. Tintarella di Luna

    The blind kid should get a job as a bus driver. It would be totally unfair to knock him back for a license with the highly discriminatory reason that he can’t see the road.

    That’s why all this anti-discrimination bullshit has gone totally over the top. We all discriminate every day in every way, ti’s how we stay alive and prosper. There are some blind people who hear more than any of us can see and some deaf people who see more than any of us can hear. Horses for courses. Though I must say we should not stop trying to make life fulfilling and good for all people.

  75. Tintarella di Luna

    If you want to argue that this adjustment disadvantages able bodied kids, go right ahead.
    You’d be the first I’ve encountered in 40 years in the field to do so, but that’s OK.

    I have a friend whose son is partially blind and deaf and uses a wheelchair and has limited fine motor skills (He is 9 and English and his maths skills have been assessed at 16 year old skill level). Mum wanted her son to use a computer for his exams because he’d used a computer all year — the school was umming and ahhing because they did not want the other students to be disadvantaged. FHS. can you bear it.?

  76. A private institution can do what it wants, otherwise it is not private.
    When it is subsidized by the taxpayer, it has a responsibility to do what the taxpayer wants (i.e. comply with legislation).
    A ceremony is normally done on a stage.
    That wonderful word normal.
    Care to define it?
    If you don’t like what a private company does are you suggesting we should have state control of all commerce.
    No
    Just more Orwellian doublespeak in the cause of seeming to be caring. Lets not have any objective tests as it will offend those that do not pass.
    Where have I suggested that?
    Let’s not have the graduation at all – because it hurts the feelings of those that didn’t – their rights needs to be recognised.
    That’s not what I’ve argued – that’s all your own idea.
    The Americans have expressed it best – you have the ‘right to pursue happiness’, not the right to be happy.
    Surely all people (including those with disabilities) have the right to pursue happiness.

  77. Mum wanted her son to use a computer for his exams because he’d used a computer all year
    The jargon for this is a “reasonable adjustment”.
    It’s spelled out in the Disability Standards for Education in this state.

  78. banz

    A ceremony is normally done on a stage.
    That wonderful word normal.

    It is a wonderful word is it not, see you prefer abnormal, that is, the majority must sacrifice for the minority, in your world that even makes sense. Let the kids have their day on stage just like the tens of thousands before them, you know normal. See in your world you throw that out the window, hell, how about they have the graduation in a hospital room next year.

    Surely all people (including those with disabilities) have the right to pursue happiness.

    Sure they can pursue it, however, you want us to give it to them, we must change for them, we must pay for them, they do not have to pursue at all, they can now feel entitled.

    Jesus, go and get some sun numbers, life is passing you by while you sit there and bleed for everyone, unless of course, you get off on that.

  79. Gab

    The notion that all Australians should have equal human rights and equal protections under the rule of law is simply foreign to progressive thought.

    It’s called regressive thought for regressive they are. We already have laws that deal with these rights.

    Defund the AHRC and spend the money elsewhere.

    …oops, is this the wrong thread? is this a thread about schools not the AHRC? Ah, I see, numbers is at it again.

  80. you want us to give it to them
    Us and them?
    Planning on living a long life?
    You will transition from us to them towards the end of it.

  81. wreckage

    Numbers is right. There is no point trying to assess the un-assessable. And frankly, if a kid in a wheelchair spoils the spectacle for the parents, those parents can go and get fucked.

    Individual. Rights. There is no such thing as the right to not have your ceremony format adjusted for the sake of those for whom it is actually held. I am certainly surprised to hear people here arguing that a worthy individual should be excluded, for the sake of the collective’s hurt feelings!

    Gobsmacked, actually.

    And if PE requires you to skip a rope to pass, it’s a pile of garbage and needs to be disposed of. I am appalled that my taxes might be going to some time-waster to hand out “grades” for the taxing and important “learning” of jumping over a bloody rope! I’m even more surprised that people are defending such a pile of mickey-mouse gimme grades as somehow important!

    (Good God, the horror if I employed someone with no legs, confident in the total veracity and thoroughness of their high-school PE grade, only to find they couldn’t jump over a rope! The government needs to save me from such an error.)

    Surely since we’re basically tearing a grade off a roll and handing it to people for doing something they can already do, we can just tear one off for the kid with no legs; after all he or she is no less perfectly ridiculous in asking to be graded for it than any of the others!!

  82. Andrew of Randwick

    735099 at 6:55 pm

    When it (a private institution) is subsidized by the taxpayer, it has a responsibility to do what the taxpayer wants (i.e. comply with legislation).

    . Circular argument ‘comply with legislation’ is what we were arguing.
    .

    That wonderful word normal. Care to define it?

    . The opposite of abnormal, uncharacteristic, special, rare, unusual, not in the expected, etc
    .

    Lets not have any objective tests as it will offend those that do not pass. Where have I suggested that?

    . You have suggested that the PE be redefined so that one person does not fail.
    .

    That’s not what I’ve argued – that’s all your own idea.

    .You said the graduation should not proceed as one person could not fully participate. I suggested the graduation should not proceed because others could not participate.

  83. wreckage

    Giving someone with no legs a pass for PE is the normal and rational exercise of discretion by a free individual, and people here, HERE are whining because it breaks the rules?

    Really?

    Where are the fucking Libertarians that used to hang out here? Suddenly I’m surrounded by whining entitled soft-cocks.

  84. Tel

    We all discriminate every day in every way, it’s how we stay alive and prosper. There are some blind people who hear more than any of us can see and some deaf people who see more than any of us can hear. Horses for courses. Though I must say we should not stop trying to make life fulfilling and good for all people.

    Sure, the blind kid might turn out to be really good at music, not so good at painting. The assessment (if it is worth anything at all) should accurately and honestly reflect that. Please don’t tell the poor kid her painting is great when it plainly isn’t. That’s not helping anyone, least of all the kid who should be playing to her strength.

    That’s the whole idea of an assessment isn’t it?

  85. wreckage

    People with various missing limbs produce art that is remarkable, for the skill displayed. If a blind kid actually managed to paint something they should at least get a pass. Plenty of idiot brats of the genetically bereft of talent get passes for their pathetic attempts at art.

  86. Andrew of Randwick

    (wreckage) And if PE requires you to skip a rope to pass, it’s a pile of garbage and needs to be disposed of. I am appalled that my taxes might be going to some time-waster to hand out “grades” for the taxing and important “learning” of jumping over a bloody rope! I’m even more surprised that people are defending such a pile of mickey-mouse gimme grades as somehow important!

    It is important because words have to mean something – absolute.
    – Reading no longer requires knowing words
    – Arithmetic no longer require knowledge of numbers
    – Writing no longer requires forming of letters and ideas.

  87. wreckage

    You can’t go all sophist with the definition of assessment when there is compulsory attendance and compulsory curriculum. Art classes, for the majority of a persons schooling career, are non-optional. Giving the blind person a pass is not only the right thing to do, it’s the only rational response to a system that demands blind kids be forced to paint.

  88. Tel

    I’m even more surprised that people are defending such a pile of mickey-mouse gimme grades as somehow important!

    I never gave any opinion about the importance or unimportance of PE as compared to other school activities. I’m saying that if you are going to start editing the grades when it suits then you don’t have a grading system at all. You are just kidding yourself.

  89. wreckage

    It is important because words have to mean something – absolute.

    Any mark for PE is inherently meaningless.

    That is my entire point.

  90. banz

    you want us to give it to them
    Us and them?

    Awww thats really cute numbers, see, its US that generally give to THEM. Thats how socialism works numbers, see YOU take it from US and give it to THEM. You in fact created this seperation, just YOU and ya silly schoolboy liberal thoughts, see numbers, to give a right, you generally have to take a right off someone. There is no equality in your thought process, there is only inequality, YOU take from US, to give to them. Thats you in a nutshell, a fraud.

    Planning on living a long life?
    You will transition from us to them towards the end of it.

    See thats cute as well, so heres my answer, thats my problem, I will have to deal with any issues that arise, I have taken steps to ensure I have the capacity to do same, I am accountable and responsibe for myself and my family…get your fuckin hands out of my pocket you leach.

  91. Tel

    You can’t go all sophist with the definition of assessment when there is compulsory attendance and compulsory curriculum.

    I’m not a supporter of one-size-fits-all curriculum, and I believe people should be free to attend niche schools that don’t necessarily follow the standard. That’s a totally different problem. If the AHRC were going to encourage genuine diversity in education I’d fully agree with it.

    Jiggering the grades doesn’t fix the problem of poorly chosen curriculum, and to the extent that it hides the problem it prevents a fix from ever happening.

  92. wreckage

    I’m saying that if you are going to start editing the grades when it suits

    If you are not permitted to exercise discretion, don’t bother hiring professionals for the role. Discretion is their job. Most of them know what they are doing; don’t start in on me on the topic, I am as critical of teaching standards as anyone else, but “teachers” who mark “fail” for a blind kid in art, or a legless kid in PE, are EXACTLY AND TOTALLY the problem!

  93. Motelier

    People with various missing limbs produce art that is remarkable, for the skill displayed. If a blind kid actually managed to paint something they should at least get a pass. Plenty of idiot brats of the genetically bereft of talent get passes for their pathetic attempts at art.

    Then the assessment tool is useless. You know it and I know it. This is the dumbing down of education. it is happening everywhere where assessment tools are used across a population.

    However, that all changes when it comes to employment. This, as they say is where the buck stops.

    NO MATTER WHAT THE REPORT CARD, CERTIFICATE OR CV SAYS UNTIL YOU PROVE YOUR VALUE TO A BUSINESS YOU ARE UNPROVEN.

    That is going to be a shock to a lot of people, but private enterprise is a predatory world.

  94. wreckage

    Jiggering the grades doesn’t fix the problem of poorly chosen curriculum, and to the extent that it hides the problem it prevents a fix from ever happening.

    I don’t see how mindless obedience to destructive rules is of any help to anyone.

  95. Andrew of Randwick

    (wreckage) Any mark for PE is inherently meaningless. That is my entire point.
    car driving licences? machinery operating tickets, commercial pilot licences, surgical colleges, dentists, physios, etc
    Yes the measurement of hand-eye physical coordination is totally meaningless.

  96. wreckage

    Then the assessment tool is useless. You know it and I know it. This is the dumbing down of education. it is happening everywhere where assessment tools are used across a population.

    Exactly. The problem here is the system. I see no reason to submit to it.

  97. wreckage

    car driving licences? machinery operating tickets, commercial pilot licences, surgical colleges, dentists, physios, etc

    Yeah, cause they give you those based on your PE mark from highschool. Have… have you ever tried for any of those? Did any of them look at your PE marks? Wait, wait, don’t tell me the answer! Let me guess!

    OF COURSE THEY FUCKING DIDN’T.

  98. if you are going to start editing the grades
    There is an often neglected element to assessment.
    First you need to be clear on precisely what is being assessed.
    Few teachers thoroughly consider this.
    I was once asked to assist in a situation where a hemiplegic lad was to be assessed on his capacity to operate a metal work lathe.
    The problem was that the request came two weeks before he was due to sit for the assessment.
    No deep thought had occurred back when he had course choices to make.
    Much panic ensued.
    In the end, he was assessed on his knowledge of the machine, rather than his capacity to operate it, which was probably fair to nobody. The assessment revealed however, that he had a fine appreciation and understanding of the intricacies of working in three dimensions with metal.
    There is a happy ending.
    In the course of researching the problem we discovered that there are computer enabled lathes that are set up and operated via a keyboard and mouse.
    This led to further investigation of what was possible for him – he was fine with a keyboard and mouse.
    This lad ended up with a traineeship in one of the mining companies in the Surat basin.
    Last I heard he was doing OK.

  99. Motelier

    wreckage,
    The curriculum should better reflect the needs of society.

  100. wreckage

    In the course of researching the problem we discovered that there are computer enabled lathes that are set up and operated via a keyboard and mouse.
    This led to further investigation of what was possible for him – he was fine with a keyboard and mouse.

    This is exactly what a REAL TEACHER, a professional, would do. Not flop about because the tick boxes had gone all funny.

    Top marks, Numbers. You just went up several notches in my esteem. Next time we’re arguing I will shout more politely.

  101. wreckage

    Motelier; I partly agree. The curriculum should be based on the best possible learning of the most useful skills in the least possible time. Then let them go home early or have longer holidays or something.

    Everything else is for the family and community, or alternatively, give the kids more supervised “play” time with art materials, physical action, and so on. There is no reason whatsoever that a general “art” class should be graded unless it is an opt-in to actual, proper tuition with a skilled teacher and proper materials. Same with PE.

  102. Tel

    Mum wanted her son to use a computer for his exams because he’d used a computer all year — the school was umming and ahhing because they did not want the other students to be disadvantaged. FHS. can you bear it.?

    In that case you have a resource problem. There’s no doubt that a computer would be an advantage to many of the kids doing the exam, and anyhow just about all of them will grow up to use a computer anyhow. The right answer is to provide computers to whoever asks for one.

    I’ll point out that the other students were indeed disadvantaged by the provision of a computer to one one kid in this situation, there’s nothing dishonest about pointing that out. Maybe you tell the other kids, “too bad learn to suck it up,” or you can just say, “Well it doesn’t matter much at age 9″ but anyway the assessment is skewed. Sure, this sort of thing probably happens all the time, and we don’t live in a perfect world. I don’t have a problem with people doing their best in a bad situation, but the objective of an assessment is to take a measurement.

    Why do you think the “climate scientists” discovered so much Global Warming? People took measurements with thermometers, and then other people came along and added “adjustments” to tweak the result. Next thing you know, we get heaps of warming! If you don’t believe me, search around where people graph the old GISS data up against the modern GISS data, you see history change before your eyes. No problem in a world of post-normal measurements, just change reality to suit consensus.

  103. All these bureaucracies ‘of the left’. Leads to the less obvious question — is democracy itself ‘of the left’?

  104. Tintarella di Luna

    By what’s been said upthread it sounds like you’re advocating Universal Design for Learning which I think in the future will be the way classrooms will be structure once the teaching profession is unshackled from the 19th ball and chain of teacher training.

  105. Tintarella di Luna

    In that case you have a resource problem. There’s no doubt that a computer would be an advantage to many of the kids doing the exam, and anyhow just about all of them will grow up to use a computer anyhow. The right answer is to provide computers to whoever asks for one.

    I agree.

  106. jumpnmcar

    Whooh, just dropped in to see the convo about the AHRC.
    I see some troll derailed it and some people can’t show the discipline or focus to ignore….
    .
    .
    .
    Fuck it, keep laying in the filthy pile of shit he excretes, enjoy stimulating his bits.
    Oh, btw, it has its own blog ya know, just sayin.

  107. Rafe

    Top marks, Numbers. You just went up several notches in my esteem. Next time we’re arguing I will shout more politely.

    Top marks wreckage. Like everyone else, Numbers sometimes make sense and sometimes we think he does not, the thing is to read the comment before we start shouting in reply.

    And if you think it is crap, either let it go through to the ‘keeper or add value rather than abuse in response.

  108. Rafe

    Taking a cue from jump to find where the thread was derailed.

    What remedy would have been available without a low-key (and relatively cheap) complaint to the Commission?

    On my reading all the cases could have been resolved with commonsense and common decency. If these things are in short supply we need to generate more of them and not resort to state bureaucracies to sort the issues out. It may take longer but society will be better for it rather than worse, the way we are going under the current human rights regime, They start with the best of intentions, like the NSW Anti Discrimination Board where I worked a few decades ago and they grow and grow, driven by zealots.

  109. Andrew of Randwick

    Numbers and Wreckage willing ignore the whole point that a test is a test is a test. Whether it is an appropriate one, or is one you do not think is important, it is irrelevant. The argument was that people now think it is compassionate (or anti-discriminatory) to redefine the test so that a person is not failed.

    yeah, cause they give you those based on your PE mark from highschool…OF COURSE THEY FUCKING DIDN’T

    None of those occupations mentioned would have people who couldn’t skip at 8 – because the inability to skip can signal motor neuron dysfunction, or underdeveloped synapses in the motor control center of the brain. Wonder why toddlers are encouraged to colour in – its not for art – its to develop fine motor skills so they can write later. And so going over the lines, an early test, is important!
    .
    Oh why don’t you go and get operated on by a one armed, blind illiterate surgeon who has passed all the redefined requirements in the Brave New World where truth is just a construct of the establishment, and everyone must pass so as not to hurt their feelings, and so as not to discriminate against them.

  110. because the inability to skip can signal motor neuron dysfunction
    In this case it signaled a lack of legs.
    Please please don’t tell me you’re a GP…..

  111. Andrew of Randwick

    Your child failed skipping. Note to parents: She failed because she only has one leg – but you have probably noticed that already. Case closed.
    Your child failed skipping: Note to parents: He failed because he can’t control his left leg, ever since that bump on the head at the tuckshop. Suggest you consult your GP. Case very much open.

  112. Tel

    Here, it’s kind of related to the same issue…

    http://dailybruin.com/2013/11/20/students-defend-professor-after-sit-in-over-racial-climate/

    In a letter sent to colleagues in the department after the sit-in, Rust said students in the demonstration described grammar and spelling corrections he made on their dissertation proposals as a form of “micro-aggression.”

    So there you go, if you mark something wrong, you’re a bully.

    Yes, I’m aware it’s a bit more nuanced… but it doesn’t take many steps down that path to fruit loopery before you forget where you came from and how to get back. Anyone who disagrees with me is being micro-aggressive, so just take a deep breath and be a bit careful with that.

  113. wreckage

    You can’t advance the cause of reasonableness and independence by railing against reasonableness and independence. If PE is a rigid requirement of the curriculum when it shouldn’t be, then complying with the absurdity and failing (presumably so as to require class repeat, indefinitely, forever) a legless student is the sort of mindless obedience nobody here would previously have advocated!

    Frootloopery isn’t a path that you can accidentally start down by being perfectly reasonable, for fuck’s sake!

  114. blogstrop

    A quick spin through the avatars on this thread tells me to go elsewhere. Way too many union thug flags.

  115. wreckage

    Numbers and Wreckage willing ignore the whole point that a test is a test is a test. Whether it is an appropriate one, or is one you do not think is important, it is irrelevant.

    That is the voice of total, abject, responsibility-dodging, adulthood-abrogating submission to authority. Peddle it to someone else.

  116. Rabz

    Makka
    #1125110, posted on December 27, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    Makka – your comment would require an essay to properly rebut, but let me just say this – ‘progressives’ are staggeringly stupid as well as insane (e.g. endlessly repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome).

    The only ‘positives’ they possess are rat cunning and a total absence of shame.

  117. Tel

    Wreckage, you bring up some fair points, there’s no such thing as a perfectly fair test, it always comes down to personal judgement and personal responsibility. Maybe there’s justification for subversion and civil disobedience at times, but even then it has to stop somewhere. If we collectively choose to abandon standards then what are we left with?

    The fat kid wants to pass skipping when he obviously can’t do it, then the stoned kid doesn’t want to show up for class, then some other kid gets stressed easily so better pass him as well. Someone uses personal judgement and says, “You and you are OK, but the rest of you no good.” Someone misses out and right away points to the other guy and says, “Hey he got in!”

    The end game is pass everyone, and that’s about where our tertiary education system is at right now.

  118. wreckage

    If teachers have no standards, you can’t make them have standards. All the rigidities and layers of rules and so on just isolate people who want to teach, and have the judgement to make a call on a PE grade, in favour of career politicians who are too fucking useless to make it as actual, real-life, career politicians.

    Tests and standards and all of that are bollocks. The more US education focused on them, the worse it got. Well trained, professional teachers, equipped to actually teach, are what is needed.

  119. Rafe

    Yes, the moment you start measuring indicators, many will teach to the indicators (and give out answers to tests, if it helps) and everything else gets the time left over.

  120. MT Isa Miner

    Menai Pete

    #1125202, posted on December 27, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    The AHRC was set up so that Australia could comply with The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). That simple role has been usurped by the usual band of left wing wankers who want to fuck with peoples lives and freedoms.

    THIS is the issue. All the rest is rolling in the muck that comes afterwards.

    We aren’t as fucked as the UK with the European control of their government but we bought a pup. Well now we know and have to figure our how to get out.

    I reckon it’s like dumping a psycho wife/husband. No point being honest about it- that will give your grief and could get you killed. Nah, you gotta prepare, prepare and slowly fade out before they realise you’re gone.

    If the Liberals had any brains or guts they’d get out of the abusive relationship with the UN and it’s socialist guerrilla organisations altogether. We can see the UN for what it is about now. Guilting the first world into left wing crap. What’s in in for us?

    .

  121. srr

    Yep, Mount Isa Miner, and unless Natasha Stott-Despoja is a committed holy soldier in deep, deep cover, I could find myself hating Abbott and ‘his’ Team, more than the looniest of Leftists.

  122. Peter56

    Tinta, I guess this kid was like Brearley, not much out on the field or at the crease, but tactically quite good. Just stick him at first slip where he can direct proceedings and make sure you impress on the keeper not to dive in front of him too closely.

  123. I really don’t understand why a school should be forced to develop a curriculum that enables a physically disabled child to pass PE.

    She can’t do the curriculum, so she failed. Seems pretty simple. It’s not like failing PE is going to hurt her academic career going forward.

    Or is it important that we pretend everyone can do everything even when they can’t?

  124. wreckage

    Why should she be forced to participate in a curriculum including PE?

    The school exists to serve the needs of the children. That’s the end point of the market: the consumer. Producers don’t matter. That’s a simple fact. Holden goes out of business? Who cares, if cars are cheaper?

  125. wreckage

    She’s being forced to consume a product she didn’t voluntarily buy. YAY LIBERTARIANS!

  126. wreckage

    Next you’ll be arguing people should be forced to buy station-wagons to keep Holden in business at Holden’s maximum convenience.

    If the government is going to compel people to consume a product, they better make fucking sure that product is suitable.

    As for the school’s inconvenience, it’s trivial. Write non-compulsory next the PE. DONE. There is absolutely no reason for PE to be compulsory. In which case the kid should get a mark of “not assessed”.

  127. Tel

    Next you’ll be arguing people should be forced to buy station-wagons to keep Holden in business at Holden’s maximum convenience.

    No one is arguing that. The equivalent statement is that you have already been forced to buy a Holden and then a wheel falls off so the government regards it as a Holden Rights Violation to mention to anyone that the wheel fell off and you are are supposed to pretend that everything is just fine.

  128. Tel

    The school exists to serve the needs of the children.

    Every student wants high marks, so if the students are paying for it, they should get any mark they are willing to pay for, right?

    I mean producers don’t matter, the customer is always right. Every student gets 100%.

  129. Here, it’s kind of related to the same issue…
    http://dailybruin.com/2013/11/20/students-defend-professor-after-sit-in-over-racial-climate/

    The linked article is more notable for the constant use of the phrase “students of color” than for anything else.
    Clearly some bunch of self-entitled whiners have been marked wrong for grammatic errors on a paper they submitted, and are stamping their foot to demand the uni enforce a “every child wins a prize” approach to marking papers.

  130. Andrew

    Fraud is best dealt with through the court system that already exists and stupidity is dealt with via social mechanisms such as naming and shaming. In your examples I don’t understand why those individuals couldn’t engage in self-help. I’m particularly surprised that a federal body had standing to intervene.

    This.

    If a disabled kid can do 11 out of 12 things and gets an “F” in PE (which I find extremely hard to believe) then the parents ring the school. If that fails I’d be astonished if a call to the Dept of Ed didn’t very quickly see sanity prevail.

    If not, I don’t think the kid’s life is ruined by that grade – she moves on to high school knowing there’s small-minded morons out there who grade her on her inability to skip that she’s certainly well aware of already – and who will probably find themselves starring in a local newspaper feature. Not seeing the case for nearly 150 leftist troublemakers feeding at the public trough for a year to fix this.

    As for the school not moving a graduation from the stage to ground level – no surprises there. The audience needs to SEE the ceremony – 100 odd sets of parents who aren’t 9 feet tall shouldn’t have to suffer. Can’t see why her family couldn’t simply LIFT her chair or bring a ramp with them (I’m sure after 18 years they know how to get a kid around). Again, a vast bureaucracy instead of parents taking a simple step to work around a minor inconvenience that could be dealt with in 5 seconds with some self-help.

    The first example of outright fraud again had nothing to do with discrimination. It’s a police matter. So we’ve got ONE example of them doing something that perhaps a family could not have trivially taken care of by itself. Against that, I have lots of personal examples of HREOC completely going beyond its brief and even acting directly contrary to the law and their own negotiated industry codes of practice. (They relate to insurance discrimination, which is specifically protected for obvious public interest reasons.)

  131. wreckage

    you have already been forced

    You’re almost there. Almost.

    I mean producers don’t matter, the customer is always right. Every student gets 100%.

    It’s a quote from Bastiat. Argue with him. Producers don’t matter. And there is no reason for every student to get 100%; there is a reason for them to get a suitable education without stupid arbitrary bullshit of no benefit to them or anyone else. How are students served or bettered by “100% because they’re always right”? How is the school served by grades? The school is there to produce actual educational outcomes not grades.

    The issue of a kid with no legs not being able to jump a rope should never have arisen. It is fucking ridiculous. Insisting that if we pass legless kids on PE then society will crumble into a morass of definitionless postmodernism is dumb as dogshit, and you should be embarrassed. It shouldn’t have needed the AHRC because the teacher should have looked at the situation and exercised discretion. And if THEY didn’t the principal should have.

    Conservatism and Libertarianism have in common that they hold common sense and individual accountability ABOVE arbitrary departmental procedure or some abstract psychobabble bullshit about social-conventional dialogue. The idea that the kid is a threat to objectivity is the kind of weirdo, over-intellectualized over-reach that I expect from DEVOTED Marxists. Of course, I could be misreading you completely, and I have no reason to think you’re genuinely stupid, so it could just be my comprehension skills; I’d be happy to hear how sticking to the letter of the overly detailed and intrusive rules – which shouldn’t, IMHO, exist in the first place – is from a conservative or libertarian perspective BETTER than taking responsibility and rationality upon one’s self and acting with intelligent self-will.

    Can’t see why her family couldn’t simply LIFT her chair or bring a ramp with them (I’m sure after 18 years they know how to get a kid around). Again, a vast bureaucracy instead of parents taking a simple step to work around a minor inconvenience that could be dealt with in 5 seconds with some self-help.

    Andrew, that’s a good point. Make a ramp in metal shop. Problem solved. If the school did indeed offer to provide for access, then getting the AHRC involved was unnecessary and stupid, and touting it as a victory is profoundly wrongheaded.

  132. struth

    This post was about the attitude of the left toward putting one right wing guy in to the HRC.
    It was about the left’s assumption that right wingers have no place in this commission. The assumption that right wingers are evil and therefore cannot possibly be allowed in at all.

    Numbers first statement on this thread was…….
    Forgetting about Right or Left, perhaps it’s worth considering the role of the AHRC in the field of disabilities.

    Numbers did not want us talking about the facts of this post.
    He did successfully derail it, I feel.
    However, if that’s what people wanted to talk about ,fine.
    But he did derail it.

  133. wreckage

    Eh, a derail maybe, but there’s not much to be said about stacking. They do it. We know it. When we bust into their little groupthink bubble they act like their throat’s been cut.

    TEL: by the way, apologies for coming across as a direct put-down of you. I tend to argue loud. I still think you’re wrong, but I’m enjoying the fight so far.

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