The left will still seek to destroy anyone who dares to dissent

Mark Steyn wrote an article in which he basically told his editor at National Review Online to get rooted only much less politely than that. Steyn had written an article in defence of the Duck Dynasty and found his editor at NRO taking sides against him. Mark Steyn’s scathing and angry reply elicited a further reply from his editor. A bit complex, but made up of a brief article by Mark, an inane response by his editor, a further rejoinder by Mark and then another even more idiotic response from his editor.

But what really interests me is this from Mark Noonan at the blogsite blogsforvictory.com. This was his comment on the second statement by the National Review Online editor:

No, Mr. Steyn cannot mount an argument against the left without insulting them. To disagree with them is, in their view, to be insulting. We’re not dealing with rational people, here. We’re dealing with people who are, in the largest sense of the word, insane. For crying out loud, they really think that its ok to kill a baby! When you’re dealing with that sort of irrationality, trying to keep it polite is the least of your concerns. Our job, as sane people, is to drive these people entirely out of power. We won’t do that if we try to pretend that lunacy has a proper place in the debate.

And now he has written an even more scathing article defending Mark and attacking the NRO editor in no uncertain terms. This is the best para but it’s a short post so you should read it in full:

As I noted in my small comment, liberals are essentially insane. Not in the clinical sense where we could diagnose and treat them, but in the fact that what they propose flies in the face of facts and logic. That what they propose, if really and fully implemented, would utterly destroy human life on earth. People who think that babies can be killed, that tax increases cause prosperity, that crony-capitalism is a good idea, that government employees are altruistic, that a small elite can better decide things than people on their own; that a hack, Chicago politician is a new messiah – these are not rational views to hold. Added to their irrationality and completing it is a mercilessness which knows no bounds. You can rely on it that no matter how nice and polite we are, the left will still seek to destroy anyone who dares to dissent. This is not a call for us to start being mean and merciless – but for pity’s sake, don’t just sit there and be a punching bag. Hit back. And keep on hitting because until we completely remove the left from all ability to effect policy in this nation, we will not be able to reform and save it.

We are dealing with uncertifiable screw ups whose pious, superficial and hypocritical inanities will yet be the ruin of us.

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123 Responses to The left will still seek to destroy anyone who dares to dissent

  1. struth

    As I noted in my small comment, liberals are essentially insane. Not in the clinical sense where we could diagnose and treat them, but in the fact that what they propose flies in the face of facts and logic. That what they propose, if really and fully implemented, would utterly destroy human life on earth. People who think that babies can be killed, that tax increases cause prosperity, that crony-capitalism is a good idea, that government employees are altruistic, that a small elite can better decide things than people on their own; that a hack, Chicago politician is a new messiah – these are not rational views to hold. Added to their irrationality and completing it is a mercilessness which knows no bounds. You can rely on it that no matter how nice and polite we are, the left will still seek to destroy anyone who dares to dissent. This is not a call for us to start being mean and merciless – but for pity’s sake, don’t just sit there and be a punching bag. Hit back. And keep on hitting because until we completely remove the left from all ability to effect policy in this nation, we will not be able to reform and save it.

    Now rewrite it to suit Australia. Replacing chicago hack with krudd the dud and you got something to use here.

  2. Tel

    No, Mr. Steyn cannot mount an argument against the left without insulting them. To disagree with them is, in their view, to be insulting.

    That pretty much sums up the 18C problem.

  3. Noddy

    >You can rely on it that no matter how nice and polite we are, the left will still seek to destroy anyone who dares to dissent. This is not a call for us to start being mean and merciless – but for pity’s sake, don’t just sit there and be a punching bag. Hit back. And keep on hitting because until we completely remove the left from all ability to effect policy in this nation, we will not be able to reform and save it.<
    HEAR, HEAR.

  4. C.L.

    liberals are essentially insane

    Leftism is a legitimate mental illness, yes.

  5. M Ryutin

    The incomparable Mark Steyn is showing signs of being ready to leave NRO, it seems to me. He is quite cutting about this particular editor and seems to be showing signs of this not being any sort of minor incident. With the latest Steyn comment (on the Michael Mann case) he is again very blunt when blaming NRO ‘editors’ for not clarifying the effects of this supposed ‘victory’ in court sooner than this.

    However, not only is Mark getting much support generally, I was pleased to see that John Hinderaker of Powerline is interested in talking to him if he is looking for a new home and provides the number to do so.

  6. Bigpeteoz

    Hear, hear, the right to state your opinion is nothing short of sacrosanct, the right to be alarmed by such comment is nothing short of insane.
    Punch back twice as hard and see who ends up victor as Evelyn Hall implies. Usually the saner one.

  7. honesty

    The left have taken over key institutions particularly, education, welfare and the media. They then crowd out all debates with well crafted memes not arguments. To fight back we must simplify and attack with maximum force.

    I believe there are two kinds of people, those that get up each morning and think how can the “Government” make things better and those that get up and think how can “I” make the world better. If we can focus on framing this as the political debate we will win easily, if we let the Left continue to frame the debate it will be very hard going. Why will this frame win? Because it has cut through and the facts will win out. Even those totally dependent on welfare for their entire life know the government is inefficient.

  8. Evcricket

    What the right will never realise is that bring insane gives me a huge advantage over you. As a lefty I’m insane, giving me insight and intelligence, while those on the right are just stupid. Notice how ‘lumbering’ and ‘idiotic’ are easy swaps for the word “conservative”.

  9. Tom

    Evcricket, please encourage your fellow revolutionaries to post on this thread. It would be a shame if they became all shy-like just because the truth about them is being openly canvassed in public.

  10. will

    What the right will never realise is that bring insane gives me a huge advantage over you. As a lefty I’m insane, giving me insight and intelligence, while those on the right are just stupid. Notice how ‘lumbering’ and ‘idiotic’ are easy swaps for the word “conservative”.</blockquote

    I am sure your insanity is like eating magic mushrooms, which is why you think that it give you insight and intelligence, it actually does no such thing, but how else can you cope with evidence and reality?

  11. struth

    Honesty, you said it.
    The “kiss” principle, (keep it simple stupid) and forceful is the way to win. The media are completely left wing and will either lie or not report as their wish. Getting bogged down in details is unneccessary and corrodes your message.
    Lefties always pick a little piece of the message to sideline debate and divert.
    Aussies really hear you when you cut through the shit. That’s why talking shit got the last government thrown out.
    It just requires BALLS ! ………………………….oops did it again.

  12. Jannie

    In my experience, it is the Left who characterises dissent with lunacy and sickness. With respect to Steyn, we should not emulate their tactics even at the margin. The Left is demonstrably stupid, whether they are sick or evil is speculation.

    Leftists have control of the institutions of authority, and they tend to presume that their authority places them beyond criticism. Leftists are not accustomed to dealing with dissent, and quickly conclude that non conformists are evil or sick – even as they despise conservatives who try to compromise with them. They use such authority to browbeat dissenters, which is why they prefer to parley with the much despised old fashioned conservatives who tend to defer to tradition. So they especially dislike the libertarian Right, anti-authoritarians who do not recognise their status or try to be nice to them.

    The Left knows that in the long run their institutions can absorb social conservatism, but they cannot control individuals who yearn for freedom. That’s why they built the Gulag and the psychiatric institutions, for their sick people.

  13. Des Deskperson

    ‘Intelligent’ and ‘insightful’ Evcricket has just inadvertently confirmed exactly what this post is saying about leftist!!

  14. srr

    This is not a call for us to start being mean and merciless – but for pity’s sake, don’t just sit there and be a punching bag. Hit back. And keep on hitting because until we completely remove the left from all ability to effect policy

    BUT, as soon as anyone does hit hard where the hitting is most needed, all those lovely, loved ladies enthroned in the camps of The Righteous Right, scream, “NOT NICE!”, and their compliant eunuchs rush in to castrate the true champions.

    We are at war. It is a very real war. It is a time for bullets and bombs, not tizzy fashions, flowers and candy.

  15. wreckage

    The left aren’t insane. Simple as that. This is a contest, and the surest way to lose is to underestimate your opponent. Not enemy; opponent.

    Keep your head clear. Keep your eye on their next move. And be sure to keep it simple.

    I think a picture of the great Third Reich marches, captioned “Government fixes everything!” would be a good start.

  16. wreckage

    Oh, and I should add, playing the ball doesn’t mean being nice. Just keep puncturing pretensions, as brutally as possible.

  17. And Another Thing

    With the greatest respect for blogger Noonan, this is the time to get mean and merciless. Everything else he says is right on the money. I think everyone’s getting fed up with being dictated to by these moron leftard missionaries who want nothing more than to run everyone else’s lives.
    What they have done is arrange for the unthinkable to become reality, particularly in relation to abortion and the economy. It is as if the laws are being changed by an evil cult. As though some sick genie let out of the bottle by the old Soviet Union took no notice of the Berlin wall being torn down. All those westerners educated there are still trying to subvert the west.
    The left is upping the ante now because they know the general public is on to their antics. Global war mists in the vanguard of the attack are now on the retreat as reputable science wades in.
    Although I wouldn’t have gone so far as to believe this myself I have read in conservative blogs comments by people who believed global warming would be used to bring about a state of emergency, causing a suspension of elections.

  18. ar

    Ridicule is a powerful weapon against the left. That’s why they over-react when they perceive some small slight against them. Cloaked in deliberate obtuseness, and impervious to shame, facts and logic don’t hurt them. Get people laughing at them though…

  19. Alf

    So everyone on the left is insane, believes in killing babies, control government and social institutions and should be destroyed because they are like an evil cult, demonstrably stupid and sick or evil. And this is the sane view of the world? And right here you’re calling for brutality etc. Anyone reading this thread who wasn’t a regular on this site would be amazed at the comments and the strange persecution complex exhibited by many of those who have commented. Get a grip people, the world is not against you and the left is not in control of most institutions. Reality is out there, visit it sometime.

  20. Gab

    So everyone on the left is insane, believes in killing babies, control government and social institutions and should be destroyed because they are like an evil cult, demonstrably stupid and sick or evil.

    By George I thing he’s finally got it.

  21. Tom

    the left is not in control of most institutions.

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

  22. Alf

    Yes Tom, maniacal laughter is powerful argument, well said. How does it do anyone any good to paint people you disagree with as caricatures? It just makes you look ridiculous and is as stupid as anyone on the left making such blanket generalisations about those on the right.

  23. Tintarella di Luna

    Get a grip people, the world is not against you and the left is not in control of most institutions.

    It just makes you look ridiculous

    Sure does.

  24. candy

    Get a grip people, the world is not against you and the left is not in control of most institutions. Reality is out there, visit it sometime.

    Just one comment about once instance in relation to this matter -

    I don’t know if you ever read the comments in SMH the Age and Crikey re Tony Abbott.
    It’s a virtual free for all, about a weird ‘relationship’ with his daughters, that he bashes women, is going to destroy Australia, is going to force Catholicism on everyone etc.
    I know that’s just ordinary people’s comments there but there’s a cross section of something out of control happening via a couple of ‘institutions’ who allow this to pervade.

    Crikey in particular has been doing this about Tony Abbott, a free for all of hate, for years before he was PM.

  25. Tintarella di Luna

    Crikey in particular has been doing this about Tony Abbott, a free for all of hate, for years before he was PM.

    yeah candy and Abbott and the Betas just say it’s their enemies talking to their friends — instead of hitting hard with a knock out punch. What is that Burkeian quote: evil prospers while good men do nothing?

  26. Alf

    Same with ‘free for all hate’ and Gillard not so long ago, more so, I’d say. Abbott got a pretty decent run as Opposition Leader and, as I said, it looks ridiculous no matter whose doing it. The idea that any of our major parties or leaders are setting out to destroy the country is absurd.

  27. stackja

    We are dealing with uncertifiable screw ups whose pious, superficial and hypocritical inanities will yet be the ruin of us.

    If screw ups are allowed to ruin us. I ignore them. Stop giving them oxygen. What would Buckley say about the NRO editor?

  28. candy

    yeah candy and Abbott and the Betas just say it’s their enemies talking to their friends — instead of hitting hard with a knock out punch. What is that Burkeian quote: evil prospers while good men do nothing?

    I don’t know what the answer is Tinta. I feel for his wife and also particularly those daughters. The things they allude to about their dad and his relationship with them … it’s just shocking this happens in Australia in mainstream media.

  29. Tom

    OK, Alfie, tell us which of the following institutions of government and social influence the left does not broadly control:

    1. Parliament.
    2. The bureaucracy.
    3. The media.
    4. The judiciary.
    5. Academia.

    I wasn’t laughing at you. I was laughing at your ridiculous assertion that the left does not control most of our institutions. The left controls every institution that doesn’t require democratic election. The left knows it can’t win democratic elections, generally speaking, because, in order to gain power, it must lie about its real intentions so instead it has set about infiltrating the institutions.

  30. Alf

    Both sides lie to attain power and to hide their true intentions – again, in my view, the LNP are every bit as guilty, if not more. Of those on your list, I don’t know enough about 4., for the rest I’d say the first three are not controlled by the left and the fifth is to a point, depending on which branch of academia. This doesn’t mean that I think they are all controlled exclusively by the right.

  31. JohnA

    And Another Thing #1125084, posted on December 27, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    With the greatest respect for blogger Noonan, this is the time to get mean and merciless.

    Of course.

    The English language is replete with wonderfully suitable vocabulary, such as:

    [Female MP:] Winston Churchill, you are stinking drunk!
    [Churchill:] Indeed, madam, and I’m sorry to see that the bloom of beauty no longer blushes your cheeks. But I will be sober in the morning!
    (adapted from the shorter original for illustrative purposes).

    For an American version (air kisses all round):
    [Catty female 1:] Hello dah-ling! Loved your book. Who wrote it for you?
    [Catty female 2:] Ta, sweetie! It was nothing really. Who read it to you?

  32. blogstrop

    Over here we have Alf infecting, injecting, confecting. The blog owners must be so proud!
    The media not controlled by the left, he says … well, not all of it Alf. But 80% is a fair estimate.

  33. JohnA

    Alf, you can’t be that blind, surely?

    The Parliament and the senior PS divisions that service it constitute a gigantic legislation factory. Its purpose is to manufacture more and more rules to govern the lives of us “ig’rant dam’ dahkies.”

    And academia provides the pink-hued cannon fodder while the judiciary engages in activist law-making, and the media cheers the lot of them on.

    Should anyone wish to voice a thought-out but different opinion, they are hung drawn and quartered, hounded distorted and badgered by so-called journos until they give up just for some peace of mind. You have been watching this very process applied to Phil Robertson and the Duck Dynasty show people.

  34. Tom

    Alf,

    If you don’t agree that the left controls:
    1. The bureaucracy.
    2. The media.
    3. The judiciary.
    4. Academia.

    You are delusional.

    But you aren’t delusional at all. Because you know what I said is true.

  35. Alf

    Don’t know much about this Duck thing, but have read they are wealthy people putting on an act for the cameras, that this is not their real lives or lifestyles and that not so long ago they appeared nothing like they do now. I don’t know what you said is true Tom, if I did I wouldn’t argue against it. The parliament is currently more often than not let by Conservative governments, if the senate is constituted in any particular way it is because voters made it so. People who voice a different opinion are more likely to be done over by shock-jocks of the right, elsewhere they get a run on the ABC and in commercial media outlets – and being questioned does not mean hung drawn and quartered.

  36. JohnA

    And Tom, the Parliament contains a heavy preponderance of the left, especially when one includes the “wets” of the Liberal Party.

    MPs all have the attitude that they are there to “run the country”, which is the first step towards totalitarianism , and which MP does not carry a Field Marshal’s baton in his haversack, to quote Peter Reith (IIRC).

  37. Rafe

    Same with ‘free for all hate’ and Gillard not so long ago, more so, I’d say.

    More exasperation with disastrous policies I would have thought.

    Abbott got a pretty decent run as Opposition Leader.

    What planet are you from Alfie?

    The idea that any of our major parties or leaders are setting out to destroy the country is absurd.

    Are you counting the Greens who controlled the ALP for three years?

  38. Mr Rusty

    The idea that any of our major parties or leaders are setting out to destroy the country is absurd.

    Good Lord man. It’s been laid out in black and white since the 60′s and even earlier if we’re including the Fabian Society. How blind are you? Just take a look at England in 1997 and today and tell me that was not a deliberate plan to white-ant the country (now happening in the U.S and attempted with varying success here from 2007-2013.)

  39. wreckage

    The idea that any of our major parties or leaders are setting out to destroy the country is absurd.

    Idiots tend to wreck things without trying to.

    Are you counting the Greens who controlled the ALP for three years?

    Spot on, Rafe. The Greens (party!) want de-industrialisation, falling energy consumption, essentially Marxist economics, and massive population decline worldwide. They might not see that as setting out to destroy the country, but I sure as hell do. They want a return to organic farming; which is to say, farming circa 1930 (though admittedly with bigger tractors). They don’t see that as demanding the starvation of at least 30% of the world’s population, but people who know agriculture do. 30% might be on the low side. 30% might be the survival rate.

  40. Joe Goodacre

    I agree with Mark Steyn’s editor.

    Mark is simply rude.

    If the culture wars were is a pissing contest, he’d be a great ally. The culture wars are more nuanced than that and he comes across as a pig and convinces none who don’t already agree with him.

    Tim Blair and Andrew Bolt are the same – offend the left and neutrals and then complain there’s no civility left.

  41. Joe Goodacre

    Alf,

    The dividing line between the left and right is the role of government.

    Since people of the right (as defined above) don’t create those institutions or seek positions on them, they are dominated by people who do think it is an appropriate role for government (the left).

  42. M Ryutin

    Alf (posted on December 27, 2013 at 9:38 pm) Get a grip, man. I don’t know what political web site you are looking at (and being informed by), but the Duck Dynasty/Robertson family story is everywhere on the internet and that apart from beards, that family story is quite well known and verifiable. Maybe you should reassess the worth of those web sites you go to because of the junk they have just fed you.

  43. Alf

    That’s all great, but the ALP aren’t the Greens and are not in coalition with them. They weren’t controlled by the Greens any more than Abbott is now that he has to deal with them. The Greens can say whatever they like, however mad, ’cause they’ll never have to govern and they know it.

    If you think Mr Abbott didn’t get a decent run in the media as Opposition Leader Rafe, I’d love to see where he didn’t.

    As for the Duck Dynasty, it’s obviously huge and completely passed me by.

  44. Rafe

    Try the ABC and the Fairfax papers. What country are you living in Alf?

    Can you change your name? I used to be called Alf.

  45. Alf

    I did try them Rafe, and he got a pretty good run in both. We’re both living in the same country but I am not seeing enemies and bias everywhere I look.

  46. CatAttack

    The trouble is the centre right are ham strung by a sense of fair play and good manners conceding say that Kevin Rudd’s apology was a good thing. The Left feel no such compunction. Tony Abbott is viewed by seemingly intelligent friends of mine as evil incarnate and incapable of any good deed no matter how small. To do so would cause their whole hate edifice to crumble.

    The Lefts’s strength is in promoting simple messages often with strong visuals. As an example I recieved a Facebook post the other day with a picture of a dead elephant essentially saying palm oil killed this elephant and Dove uses palm oil. Lo and behold folk then repeat the message Dove kills Elephants. If you highlight the logical fallacy the result is the equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders and a whatever it takes. The cause is more important than the truth.

  47. CatAttack

    My Lefty friends also think the ABC provides balance. Balancing Murdoch that is. They see this as essential. I listen to the ABC and SBS all the time myself. I like a lot of their programs like Rake and Redfern Now but the notion that they do not have a Left bias is simply laughable. You can pretty well turn on the ABC news current affairs at random and you almost guarantee they will be discussing refugees, gay marriage, global warming or a variation on a green theme of sustainability or some other Malthusian dread at some point during the program.

  48. Gab

    guarantee they will be discussing refugees

    Something of a rarity during the years December 2007 to October 2013.

  49. Pat Warnock

    I have lived through the Whitlam, Keating, Rudd, Gillard, Rudd fiascos and I never want to see a Labor government in this country ever again. Some have short term memories!

  50. Alf

    Yes Gab, I never heard a mention of refugees during those years. Oh, hang on, except pretty much every time there was a news bulletin. Didn’t you hear Scott Morrison banging on about them on a daily basis. You should get your tv and radios fixed.

  51. Mr Rusty

    I have lived through the Whitlam, Keating, Rudd, Gillard, Rudd fiascos and I never want to see a Labor government in this country ever again. Some have short term memories!

    The blame is largely with us though Pat for failing to remind / educate and inform people of the disasters of electing socialist Governments along with soppy right Governments that have refused to attack, defund and cripple the left.

  52. wreckage

    It’s pretty obvious that expanding and solidifying the funding, social and political power base of the Left is not going to help the Right, and besides, it is already being carried out by the Left.

    We voted the Left out.

    To continue to expand and consolidate their hold on public money, social status and political influence is a direct stick to the eye of democracy. It is favouring the “political colleagues”, ie., the power elite, over the electorate, who have asked for them to be removed.

    Generally, nobody voted Abbott in. We voted the ALP and Greens out. The whole point of democracy is that we can remove the political caste from power if we feel they’ve failed us. Abbott is rejecting the will of the people in favour of consolidating the privilege and status of politicians. It’s wrong. The Left are perfectly correct to create stack institutions when they win; that’s what winning requires of them. of the Right it requires stacking of the necessary and defunding of the rest.

  53. Gab

    I never heard a mention of refugees during those years.

    Didn’t you? Well, as I said, it was a rarity for the ABC to report on the influx of illegal country shoppers, with the ABC giving up reporting any arrivals in 2012, 2013.

    Of course the ABC has remedied that situation since the majority of voters put Abbott in as PM as can be seen here by the ABC’s sudden new found enthusiasm for reporting on the illegals.

    Now show me where the ABC had a similar table drawn up and maintained for the years 2007 to 2013. GO!

  54. 1735099

    I have lived through the Menzies, Holt, Gorton, McMahon, Fraser and Howard eras, and never want to see their likes again.
    Perhaps the only worse government I have experienced was that of the Bjelke-Petersen era in Queensland.
    Many of them were behind bars, of course, by the end of the Fitzgerald inquiry, which is where Menzies should have finished up after he killed hundreds of young Australians in a military adventure which ended in chaos and disaster.

  55. Alf

    That was sarcasm Gab. The ABC, like everyone else, reported regularly on refugee arrivals. Perhaps they feel a table is necessary now as the Government is less forthcoming with information that was available every day when the previous government was in.

    Well said numbers, I’m younger than you it seems, but share your sentiments having started with Holt.

  56. Gab

    That was sarcasm Gab.

    Nooooo. Really?

  57. .

    Menzies should have finished up [in gaol] after he killed hundreds of young Australians in a military adventure which ended in chaos and disaster.

    This is something only a mental patient would write.

    The western intervention in Vietnam allowed hundreds of thousands of political refugees to escape a totalitarian regime that practiced extermination of political enemies.

  58. 1735099

    The western intervention in Vietnam allowed hundreds of thousands of political refugees to escape a totalatarian regime that practiced extermination of political enemies
    The western intervention in Vietnam turned a struggle for independence (the Vietnamese made no real distinction between the Japanese, the French, the Americans and the Chinese – they were all seen as “foreigners” ) into a bloody cold war struggle that killed million of Vietnamese.
    It was responsible for the “hundreds of thousands of political refugees”.

  59. lotocoti

    Many of them were behind bars, of course

    By many, our friend means four sentenced to a total of 4 years, 3 months.
    We won’t mention the 35½ years given to those four honourable members of the Labor Party who followed.

  60. Perhaps the only worse government I have experienced was that of the Bjelke-Petersen era in Queensland.
    Many of them were behind bars, of course, by the end of the Fitzgerald inquiry, which is where Menzies should have finished up after he killed hundreds of young Australians in a military adventure which ended in chaos and disaster.

    To author this is to reveal one is unhinged, in fact it is to be certifiable.

  61. Many of them [National Party MLA's] were behind bars

    None of them for kiddy fiddling.

  62. lotocoti

    Our friend seems to be confusing the eight hundred thousand who fled North Viet Nam following the war of independence and those who fled the communist invasion of the Republic of Viet Nam.

  63. 1735099

    I would have thought that denying an historical fact is “certifiable”.
    Menzies invited us into a struggle for independence which was never a threat to our national security, and introduced conscription in peacetime using an immoral and grosly unfair ballott which greviously penalised one in twenty young Australians and their families.
    Hundreds of them died, thousands were maimed, and many of the survivors are still suffering.
    Perhaps you should look at his record in the dispassionate light of the outcomes, rather than indulging in an attempt to rewrite it.

  64. wreckage

    the Vietnamese made no real distinction between the Japanese, the French, the Americans and the Chinese

    The political movers and shakers did.

    “The last time the Chinese came, they stayed a thousand years. The French are foreigners. They are weak. Colonialism is dying. The white man is finished in Asia. But if the Chinese stay now, they will never go.”

  65. wreckage

    Perhaps you should look at his record in the dispassionate light of the outcomes, rather than indulging in an attempt to rewrite it.

    With respect, the outcomes are hard to define. If you decide that Ho Chi Minh was more nationalistic, then yes. If you decide he was more revolutionary, then no. Because in the latter case the war left an expansionist regime too weak to advance any further, and indeed, they advanced no further. But in the former they were never going to advance.

  66. wreckage

    The Viet Minh then collaborated with French colonial forces to massacre supporters of the Vietnamese nationalist movements in 1945-6.

  67. 1735099

    the communist invasion of the rebublic of Vietnam
    What is a communist invasion?
    Communism is a political philopshy.
    A philosophy is an idea – ideas don’t “invade”- armies invade.
    I wonder what you would describe as the activity of the Americans.
    I understand their army entered the territory of Vietnam.
    I guess that wasn’t an “invasion” – more a gentle expedition, perhaps?
    I also understand that the Americans were armed.

  68. Gab

    Oh do fuck off you communist sympathiser. Imagine that, a Viet Nam veteran (of nine months) barracking for communism. Makes one wonder which side you were fighting on when you went over to Nam. And no, I’m not going to bother reading your inane retort.

  69. It should be clear now to even the most obtuse lurker, the reason Numbers is shunned, nay, downright unwelcome, by his peers.
    Muttering nutters are nothing new, they fill the homeless shelters, the asylums, the fringes of society. But to have one that works near children, or in a position to influence young minds, is unconscionable.
    In a better society (a decent, commonsense regime) he’d long ago have had six shades of sense belted into him by a police squad, as often as it took for him to cease his mental pollution of society.

  70. 1735099

    The outcomes are hard to define
    With respect, the outcomes are obvious if you spend time in modern Vietnam.
    There is a new generation in that country who have never known war.
    In 1970, there was a generation that had never known peace.
    The quality of life in modern Vietnam is a massive improvement over what it was in 1970.
    Life is stable, secure, and the Vietnamese have shrugged off the heavy hand of Marxism, even if they pay lip service to the symbolic trappings.

  71. That someone can, with a straigh face, describe the Bjelke-Petersen government, the best government Qld has ever had (daylight second), as a “bad” government, is clear manifestation of mental illness.

  72. Nanuestalker

    a struggle for independence

    Oh FFS! Shut up Spud! If you’re going to bore us with your Nasho victimhood, at least get your history straight.

  73. jumpnmcar

    That someone can, with a straigh face, describe the Bjelke-Petersen government, the best government Qld has ever had (daylight second), as a “bad” government, is clear manifestation of mental illness.

    +1

  74. In 1970, there was a generation that had never known peace.
    The quality of life in modern Vietnam is a massive improvement over what it was in 1970.
    Life is stable, secure, and the Vietnamese have shrugged off the heavy hand of Marxism, even if they pay lip service to the symbolic trappings.

    Just imagine how much better off Vietnam would be today had they shrugged off Marxism in 1970, and killed a whole generation of commissars, thus allowing the country a 40-year (or more) head start on where they are now.

  75. lotocoti

    Apologies.
    … those who fled the communist Democratic Republic of Viet Nam’s invasion of the Republic of Viet Nam.
    Note to self: The peace and freedom loving peoples of the USSR didn’t invade Afghanistan, they just supplied mechanised infantry and frontal aviation electoral support to their fraternal comrades in Kabul.

  76. he’d long ago have had six shades of sense belted into him by a police squad
    Steve’s answer to dissent – beat the sh*t out of anyone who disagrees with you.
    No wonder he’s a fan of Jackboot Joh……..

    From Evan Whitton’s – The Hillbilly Dictator -
    In the first edition, printed in June 1989, I noted that a former judge, the Hon J. R. ‘Diamond Jim’ McClelland, referred to the eponymous hero of this book as a ‘hillbilly Fuehrer’. I assumed he was not suggesting that grosser aspects of the late Adolf Hitler were replicated in Sir Johannes Bjelke-Petersen; merely that some parallels in their careers were observable.

    Both were masters of the politics of paranoia. In two months in 1933, Hitler played on perceptions of incipient anarchy and a threat of Communism to parlay, perfectly legally, his 31.6 per cent of the German vote and the post of Chancellor in a coalition Government into a dictatorship. The consequences are well known.

    The Bjelkist regime offers a similarly well-documented case study of the ease with which a parliamentary democracy can become an authoritarian state tolerant of corruption and injustice. Bjelke-Petersen started with a lower percentage of the vote than Hitler, and it took him longer to set up what was, at worst, no more than a quasi-dictatorship; perhaps fortunately, he was never able to implement his plan to secede from Australia.

    In 1968, with 19.28 per cent of the total vote, Bjelke-Petersen was Premier in a coalition Government. After the appointment of Terry Lewis as police chief in 1977, Queensland had some of the apparatus of a police state: the force became the regime’s private army; police were used to put down dissent and to spy on political opponents and citizens generally. By 1983, after relentless use of the Communist threat, firmness in the face of perceived anarchy, and provincial narcissism, Bjelke-Petersen was able to govern alone.

    In terms of corruption, a parallel between the situation in Queensland and the United States’ most famous case, the Teapot Dome scandal, may be instructive: if that is the best the US can manage — one doesn’t imagine it is – it may seem feeble by contrast with the corruption obtaining in Queensland in the earlier part of the 1980s.

  77. he’d long ago have had six shades of sense belted into him by a police squad

    Steve’s answer to dissent – beat the sh*t out of anyone who disagrees with you.

    No, only those who are a danger to vulnerable children, and only until the danger to children ceases. This is much different to sorting out people who disagree.
    You may be mentally ill, that is your problem, but you are also projecting. Nobody, except yourself, said anything about belting shit out of people who disagree.
    Seek professional help. Immediately.

  78. Nobody, except yourself, said anything about belting shit out of people who disagree.
    What Steve wrote – #1126225, posted on December 28, 2013 at 6:10 pm -
    It should be clear now to even the most obtuse lurker, the reason Numbers is shunned, nay, downright unwelcome, by his peers.
    Muttering nutters are nothing new, they fill the homeless shelters, the asylums, the fringes of society. But to have one that works near children, or in a position to influence young minds, is unconscionable.
    In a better society (a decent, commonsense regime) he’d long ago have had six shades of sense belted into him by a police squad, as often as it took for him to cease his mental pollution of society.

    I rest my case………..

  79. Just imagine how much better off Vietnam would be today had they shrugged off Marxism in 1970, and killed a whole generation of commissars, thus allowing the country a 40-year (or more) head start on where they are now.

    BTW Steve, there were no “Commissars” in Vietnam.
    Wrong era – wrong country.
    But then, historical accuracy has never been one of your strong points.
    Commissar is an English transliteration of an official title (Russian: комисса́р) used in the Soviet Union and Russia from the time of Peter the Great.

    The title was used during the Provisional Government for regional heads of administration, but it is mostly associated with a number of Cheka and military functions in Bolshevik and Soviet government military forces during the Russian Civil War (the White Army widely used the collective term “bolsheviks and commissars” for their opponents) and with the later terms People’s Commissar (or narkom) for government ministers and political commissar in the military.
    (Wikipedia)

  80. jupes

    Same with ‘free for all hate’ and Gillard not so long ago, more so, I’d say.

    Every criticism of Gillard was about something she did.

    The vast majority of the criticism of Abbott is a lie.

  81. jupes

    Numbers:

    BTW Steve, there were no “Commissars” in Vietnam.

    Oh dear.

    More:

    From 1950-1956 he served as Political Commissar of the Vietnam’s Ground Forces Officer Academy, which at that time was based in China.

    Why do you continue to beclown yourself Numbers. It’s unedifying.

  82. Oh boyo-boy. Numbers is “proving” Hitler had “things in common” with Joh Bjelke-Petersen.

    Doubtless they both wiped with toilet paper, and washed their hands afterward. They both knew how to use a knife & fork.

  83. Dan

    C’mon Numbers, get real…

    The modern Vietnamese drink Coke, wear Nike and ride Japanese motorbikes. They are also not too pleased about their countrymen in the rural parts living the subsidised dream. It’s pretty effing clear that capitalism and a people who are generally industrious made the country what it is today.

  84. Rabz

    Another thread destroyed by a barking mad, syphilis addled, illiterate, ahistorical commie moron.

    :x

  85. Rabz

    What was that about Vietnam, again, Perfessor??

    :x

  86. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Wreckage, I’d be interested in the scource of your post that the Viet Minh combined with the French to massacre supporters of Nationalism in 1946 – 47.

    The modern Vietnamese drink Coke

    The going rate for someone to put you on their payroll is $5000 (U.S.) and the going rate for exemption from miltary service is $10,000 (U.S.) No- one is interested in Vietnamese Dong for services rendered…another idle statistic is that the population is ninety million, of which two million are members of the Communist Party (News to this particular Westerner, who thought Party membership was obligatory.)

  87. .

    Like rabz said, back on topic.

    There are numerous examples of this.

    Doug Cameron, Kathy Jackson both being intimidated spring to mind immediately.

    The ABC even made a movie once in the early 1980s outlining the bastardry.

  88. lotocoti

    But then, historical accuracy has never been one of your strong points.

    Perfect.

  89. Better check your links, Jupes.
    The first one refers to 2012 (as I said, wrong era).
    The second one referred to Tran Tu Binh who rejoiced in a variety of titles, including Vice Rector, Deputy Secretary, Major General, and Ambassador.
    The title “Commissar” is an English translation, and a very rough one, of a vague place in the Vietnamese political hierarchy.
    It was not in general use in Vietnam, and is anachronistic in the way you’ve used it in this context.
    Like most of the terminology used by the Right to describe Vietnamese history, it is dragged from a different era and a different dispensation in an attempt to categorize the Vietnamese with Communists in other places and at other times.
    You have made the same basic error that many made at the time and since by lumping the Viets with the Chinese and Russians because they followed vaguely similar organizational structures.
    The Sino-Vietnamese (Chiến tranh biên giới Việt-Trung) conflicts of 1979 – 1990 provide the clearest evidence of the historical rifts that existed at the time and still do.
    I suggest you read – Alexander Woodside, “Vietnamese History: Confucianism, Colonialism and the Struggle for Independence”, Vietnam Forum 11 (Winter-Spring 1988),
    or -
    Vietnam: The Ten Thousand Day War (1981) – Michael MacLear
    These are both good primers.
    or –
    A Rumour Of War (1999) by Philip Caputo © Holt Paperbacks
    which is a good first hand account.
    Even better, get hold of an English translation of an account of the war written by a Vietnamese. It is their country, after all.

  90. (News to this particular Westerner, who thought Party membership was obligatory.)

    Accurately describes the level of understanding of modern Vietnamese history held by most who post here. Generally, it’s a combination of cliche, mythology and polemic – a bit like the famous Five O ‘Clock Follies, actually….

  91. Tintarella di Luna

    Is Sinc out getting the shovel?

  92. .

    Doug Cameron, Kathy Jackson both being intimidated spring to mind immediately.

    Somehow this has something to do with Vietnam.

    Commence the banning.

  93. Wreckage, I’d be interested in the scource (sic) of your post that the Viet Minh combined with the French to massacre supporters of Nationalism in 1946 – 47.
    Probably this – (Polemic – not history).
    Robert F. Turner, Vietnamese Communism: Its Origins and Development (Hoover Institution Press, 1975), pp57-9, 67–9, 74 and “Myths of the Vietnam War,” Southeast Asian Perspectives, September 1972, pp14-8; also Arthur J. Dommen, The Indochinese Experience of the French and the Americans (Indiana University Press, 2001), pp153-4.

  94. jupes

    Better check your links, Jupes.

    No dickhead. You made this statement:

    BTW Steve, there were no “Commissars” in Vietnam.

    Of course they had commissars – they are commies and it took bugger all effort on my part to show that they have.

    As for your reading list, you can bash it up your cloaca. You come here pretending that your 10 months service makes you the font of all knowledge on Vietnam, when everyone here knows that you lie about that service and you just make shit up. You were just a digger who didn’t know whether he was patrolling north or acting as the blocking force on Op Finschhafen, so you wouldn’t have recognised a commissar if you fell over one. Who the fuck are you trying to kid?

  95. Tel

    Dan: Good old Rummel, he keeps track of the murders so you don’t have to.

    I will point out that it is impossible to say whether things would have been better or worse without American & Australian interference. We can’t rewind history and try it a different way.

  96. wreckage

    Hey, I’m not a historian. I did a moderate amount of reading re the Vietnam war years ago – history, not polemics. You’ll note I largely keep out of arguments on the topic, since I know enough to know my limits. Numbers, if you’ve got a reputable reference that negates what I said, go ahead and say so.

    However, your various statements suggest you’re just a straight-up sympathizer with the historical Communists. They were murderous bastards. Whether that’s anything to do with the philosophy of Communism is really up to you to decide, but the facts are the facts; virtually every Communist revolution was accompanied by bloodbaths and succeeded by tyranny, leaving the nation in question 20-50 years behind in development.

  97. Fisky

    I suggest you read –

    Or, how about you try to make an argument that stands on its merits? Handing out a reading list is a pretty lazy way to support your views, private Bob.

  98. Is it possible to have a thread where the topic is not:
    Conscription is evil.
    Vietnam.
    The Qld state school system is the best education a kid can get.

  99. Fisky

    Is it possible to have a thread where the topic is not:
    Conscription is evil.
    Vietnam.
    The Qld state school system is the best education a kid can get.

    Not with Numbers in attendance, no. He does not have an opinion on any other topics.

  100. Gab

    Not with Numbers in attendance, no. He does not have an opinion on any other topics.

    au contraire mon frere, he has opinions on every topic and he works in “Conscription is evil, Vietnam, and The Qld state school system is the best education a kid can get” into every topic. Apart from that, he also has a personal anecdote that conveniently covers every topic he argues over.

  101. Combine_Dave

    Alf,

    If you don’t agree that the left controls:
    1. The bureaucracy.
    2. The media.
    3. The judiciary.
    4. Academia.

    You are delusional.

    But you aren’t delusional at all. Because you know what I said is true.

    Largely because Alf is from;

    1. The bureaucracy.
    2. The media.
    3. The judiciary.
    4. Academia.
    5. Public Sector, and/or Union.

    So his is a delusion shared.

  102. Combine_Dave

    That was sarcasm Gab. The ABC, like everyone else, reported regularly on refugee arrivals. Perhaps they feel a table is necessary now as the Government is less forthcoming with information that was available every day when the previous government was in.

    If the recent table is not an attack on a perceived political enemy (aka Abbott-Bush-Hitler) why not include earlier data in the table?

    Or would that make the Evil Mr R’Abbott look good with reductions in arrivals relative to the previous incompetent Government’s performance?

  103. Alf

    You don’t know know what I do for a living Dave so it is presumptuous to think you do. Nor would a table on arrivals during the previous govt. add much as the figures are well known and easily findable. No one is suggesting that there are anything other than fewer boats now – perhaps the LNP etc should be pleased that a table confirming this is readily available. As to the ethics of both sides in this, well, that’s a whole other story.

  104. duncanm

    I’m starting to get very worried about where people like the Sun King and his fellow travellers are going/taking the US.

    Ordinarily, I’d just ignore them as a bunch of fruit bats and leave it at that, however reading about Obama’s pajama boy’s past has made me sit and notice a little more. I’m not ordinarily one for scary stories or conspiracy theories, either.

    Irrational and dangerous freaks like PJ boy are being increasingly held up as the norm. Just look at the local set of ‘comedians’ and yarts flunkies (strangely, often female) who ritually abuse conservatives on twitter etc.

    This sort of abusive behaviour is being normalised. First language, then actions. Make it ordinary, then the real violence will seem justified. Much like Hitlers Jugendbund / youth.

    Similarly, the King-hit black-on-white culture is being ignored (ie: tolerated), whilst any white-on-black violence is instantly jumped on as race/hate violence.

    Its fortunate that the conservatives in the US are often gun-toting (eg: duck-man), as I feel that may be one of the few bulwarks against the tide.

  105. Tom

    Alf, have you ever worked in the private economy? Do you currently work in the private economy?

  106. Combine_Dave

    No one is suggesting that there are anything other than fewer boats now –

    Other than the ABC intentionally comparing apples and oranges to bash the LNP.

    As to the ethics of both sides in this, well, that’s a whole other story.

    Mandatory detention on one island vs detention on another? I have no problem with completely open borders so long as those arriving are prepared to participate productively in our economy and are disallowed from receiving social security payments.

    You don’t know know what I do for a living Dave so it is presumptuous to think you do.

    I am glad my assumptions were accurate. I would have sworn on Gough’s grave that you were not one of Howard’s battlers.

  107. Alf

    Maybe not a Howard voter Dave, but certainly from a background that would come under the ‘battler’ banner – not that I’d use the term myself.

  108. Gab

    Other than the ABC intentionally comparing apples and oranges to bash the LNP.

    Not once did the ABC keep track of the illegals Labor encouraged to arrive by boat for six years. Not once. But the minute Abbott was voted in they sure did. That’s because they’re Labor/Greens partisan hacks.

  109. Tom

    I’d point out that Gab actually tracked that stuff over the past three years. She knows what actually happened day-to-day. Thanks, Gab.

  110. Combine_Dave

    Maybe not a Howard voter Dave, but certainly from a background that would come under the ‘battler’ banner

    Got it. Future NDIS receipient.

  111. Alf

    Got nothin’ Dave, productive worker is a better description. But top insult there. Ouch.

  112. wreckage

    Well if there’s any decent reason for something like and NDIS to exist, it’s to cover labourers. But I always paid my own insurance. Obamacare demonstrates that the NDIS is unlikely to make that cheaper. In which case it’s a giant replication of the pension. Shit like that never ends well.

  113. Combine_Dave

    productive worker is a better description.

    Very, very hard to believe.

  114. Combine_Dave

    NDIS is unlikely to make that cheaper. In which case it’s a giant replication of the pension. Shit like that never ends well.

    Why couldn’t it have been managed via the existing Centrelink arrangements? (Aside from the obvious benefit, at the time, to push the costs from the Feds to the States).

  115. Tintarella di Luna

    Why couldn’t it have been managed via the existing Centrelink arrangements? (Aside from the obvious benefit, at the time, to push the costs from the Feds to the States).

    ‘Cause it was a Labor plan and therefore primarily a union membership drive, it was never about people with disabilities it was always about political mileage using the most needy in our community to make Gillard look human, while bolstering the ranks for the bruvvers.

  116. Combine_Dave

    ‘Cause it was a Labor plan and therefore primarily a union membership drive, it was never about people with disabilities it was always about political mileage using the most needy in our community to make Gillard look human, while bolstering the ranks for the bruvvers.

    I see. And LINO Abbott is continuing with this policy why?

  117. Dan

    I see. And LINO Abbott is continuing with this policy why?

    Because he feels the pain of all the Labor party hacks who lost their jobs in the NSW and QLD elections and thought appeasement is the way to go. Can’t have your fellow comrades out on the street! It’s easier to get them off Newstart and back into the bureaucrazy.

  118. Combine_Dave

    Personally I believe they’ll do less harm on newstart than empowered by their expected 80-100k salaries….

  119. Tintarella di Luna

    I see. And LINO Abbott is continuing with this policy why?

    They’re doing an audit and it looks like Centrelink is going to be used in the Scheme rather than an entire new bureaucracy to distribute the funds. A commission of audit (or some such) is underway looking at all policies and of course the bloated NDIS will need to be looked at because there are some major teething problems in the launch sites which all come down to ….. the inflexible bureaucracy which is expensive time and money wise.

  120. wreckage

    So they are keeping it to the extent that they can expect it to not be a monumental cock-up, which is very little? Smart.

    If there’s one thing we know for sure, it’s this: on their track record, any ALP attempt to help the disabled will be worse for the disabled than no help at all.

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