Multiculturalism and cultural confidence

Mark Steyn draws our attention to Sir Charles Napier who when told of the Indian custom of suttee famously said:

Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.

As Steyn says:

General Napier’s response was impeccably multicultural. … What my readers liked about my little bit of Napier karaoke at live appearances was its cultural cool. It wasn’t an argument for more war, more bombs, more killing, but for more cultural confidence. In the long run, that’s more effective than a drone.

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369 Responses to Multiculturalism and cultural confidence

  1. jupes

    Interesting stuff, numbers. These religions are all pretty nasty, I fear.

    Fuck off with your moral equivalence bullshit Abu.

  2. Abu Chowdah

    All religion is preposterous when considered rationally. Ironically the need to believe is likely linked to evolutionary success.

  3. Abu Chowdah

    Fuck off with your moral equivalence bullshit Abu.

    Take my cock out of your mouth and say that again, Jupes. I can barely make out a word you’re saying.

  4. Rabz

    Chowds – I’m not an adherent of any man made religion. You know this.

    There are other, more worthy targets of your ire on this blog.

    Go!

  5. Carpe Jugulum

    Neat slapdown Nilk, i hope your fists aren’t bruised from givin that beating.

  6. Gab

    Take my cock out of your mouth and say that again, Jupes. I can barely make out a word you’re saying.

    Stay classy, Abu.

  7. Abu Chowdah

    What was the appropriate response to Jupes’ typical flow of angry-ant verbal diarrhoea Gabs?

    Help me out.

  8. Gab

    Yes I guess the moral equivalence bullshit remark really got to you. It’s amazing for someone who thinks all religions are crap, you certainly come out fighting for Islam.

  9. .

    you certainly come out fighting for Islam

    I didn’t see that one.

  10. Abu Chowdah

    Yes I guess the moral equivalence bullshit remark really got to you. It’s amazing for someone who thinks all religions are crap, you certainly come out fighting for Islam.

    Not Islam, but rather the many Muslims I know who just live their lives (like you) but get defamed here by angry bastards filled with ignorance and hate.

    And yes, all religions are crap.

  11. nilk, Iron Bogan

    LOL. Numbers links to an anti-Jesus/Christianity nutter.

  12. Gab

    Don’t take it so personally, Abu. Be like us Christians who get bashed here and in the media and just take it on the chin.

  13. Gab

    Numbers links to an anti-Jesus/Christianity nutter.

    It’s what all good Catholics do.

  14. Abu Chowdah

    I get angry when my many Catholic friends are defamed or ridiculed by the cowardly leftwing media (who won’t touch Islam), too. I still think RC, like all religions, is bollocks.

  15. Abu Chowdah

    Don’t take it so personally, Abu. Be like us Christians who get bashed here and in the media and just take it on the chin.

    Right. Just read that. Well, see above.

  16. Rabz

    angry bastards filled with ignorance and hate.

    A perfect description of 99.9% of moozleys on this planet, Squire.

    Well done.

  17. candy

    It’s what all good Catholics do.

    It’s paganism he’s into reading isn’t it Gab?

  18. cohenite

    Historical and non-systemic manifestations of human capacity for oppressiveness and madness numbers.

    Cutting and pasting from an Islamic site is nonsense. It is a lie to say Islam does not oppress women; it is predicated on it. The reality in Iran, SA, indeed any Islamic nation contradicts this lie. Do you understand the conditions women live in under Islam?

    And this is just bullshit:

    The entire Qur’an, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people. The overwhelming message is that peace is to be found through faith in God, and justice among fellow human beings. Muslim leaders and scholars do speak out against terrorism in all its forms, and offer explanations of misinterpreted or twisted teachings.

    Have you heard of the Taliban and al Qaeda for fuck’s sake? How do you reconcile what they do with such crap?

    Have you been to SA, Iran, any Islamic nation?

    Essentially Jihad is an effort to practice religion in the face of oppression and persecution. The effort may come in fighting the evil in your own heart, or in standing up to a dictator. Military effort is included as an option, but as a last resort and not “to spread Islam by the sword.”

    That is nonsense. As has been mentioned how do you explain the hundreds of Australians [sic] travelling to Syria right now? Explain the traitor Hicks?

    You are beyond rational discourse on this.

  19. candy

    He may be having doubts about Catholicism Gab – it happens, and looking for different spiritual guidance or something.

  20. Abu Chowdah

    Looks like you have more in common than you know, Rabz!

    :)

  21. Rabz

    The spudpeeler – claims to a be Catholic.

    Isn’t

    The semenblogger – claims to a be Catholic.

    Isn’t

    Chowds – claims not to a be moozley.

    Is

    Thank Dog there isn’t a pattern emerging here, peoples.

  22. nilk, Iron Bogan

    Didn’t even work up a sweat, Carpe. It helps having a copy of the Reliance at my feet.

    It’s mindboggling the contortions some people put themselves through to ensure that they don’t confront the fact that they are wrong.

    The ideology is dreadful and that numbers can sit there and play the equivalence game with christianity and islam riles me up. Equate it, rather, with communism or other fun totalitarian ways of life.

    Interesting, don’t you think, how nobody ever plays the equivalence card between islam and, say, buddhism. I guess the monks arming themselves against muslims in Myanmar and Sri Lanka are of no consequence in this discussion. After all, da evil crusaders are just as bad or even worse than the muslims!

    And that comes from someone professing to be a christian.

    I’ve got NFI what sort of a christian it is that puts other religions ahead of his own, or defends islam at the expense christianity.

  23. Rabz

    Looks like you have more in common than you know

    You really are touchy about moozleyness, aren’t you, Squire?

    I threw Catholicism under the bus (with good reason, BTW) when I was about eight. I’ve detested all man made religions ever since.

    However – you just seem to be hangin’ on in there with your lerve of that seventh century arab death cult that we don’t talk about, eh, Squire.

    Why?

    Cultural imperialism?

    Waaaaacism?

    Zeeeeexism?

    You’re just an irredeemable arsehole?

    C’mon, help us out here, pal.

    :)

  24. 1735099

    Have you heard of the Taliban…….

    Yep, and I’ve heard of the IRA. One of my uncles was a member. He regarded himself as a devout Catholic.

    Have you been to SA, Iran, any Islamic nation?

    I’ve spent time in Malaysia. It’s remarkably similar to SVN, although they’re a bit dour, and it’s a bit of a bugger trying to get a beer on a hot day.

    How do you explain the hundreds of Australians (sic) travelling to Syria right now? Explain the traitor Hicks

    In the same way as history explained the ex-pats (a number from Australia) who fought against Franco in the Spanish civil war.
    As for Hicks – he’s written a book. It’s a good read and should satisfy your curiosity.

  25. nilk, Iron Bogan

    No, it’s a crap read, numbers. I found it a turgid, poorly-written boys’ own adventure. Well, the first few chapters anyway. I couldn’t finish it, although one of my resolutions for this year is to do so.

  26. cohenite

    This is bullshit; you have sanitised an eschatological blight and reduced it to the size of the IRA, a pack of about 10000 dipshits and garnished the bloated toad and traitor Hicks with literary credibility and noble purpose.

    You are a fucking idiot.

  27. Rabz

    How do you explain the hundreds of ‘Australians’ travelling to Syria right now? Explain the traitor hicks

    In the same way as history explained the ex-pats (a number from Australia) who fought against Franco in the Spanish civil war.

    You staggeringly stupid, syphilis addled, drooling ahistorical cretin – there is no possible comparison between the two situations identified above, whatsoever. Especially given what’s likely to happen if Assad is overthrown.

    Mind you, both parties of the idiots identified above (i.e. the international brigades and the fundamentalist moozleys) are totalitarian, would be, mass murdering thugs. The disgusting behaviour of the left during the Spanish Civil War actually repulsed a certain figure of some historical note, one George Orwell. But then his repudiation of your beliefs needs no elaboration.

    If Franco was such an evil figure, we’d still be hearing about it. The fact is he played a clever double game, actively assisting the Allies well before the end of WW2. If he was some kind of mass murderer (after the civil war had ceased), then identify the historical accounts.

    Oh wait, you won’t be able to.

    You fucking moron.

  28. ella

    Cohenite,

    Leveling distinctions, in the way Numbers does, testifies to intellectual bankruptcy.

    Is it worth bothering?

  29. .

    Yep, and I’ve heard of the IRA. One of my uncles was a member. He regarded himself as a devout Catholic.

    The IRA did not necessarily need you to be Catholic.

    The Taliban require you to be a fanatical Wahibbist.

    Ever heard of the ‘Prod Squad’, Bob?

  30. cohenite

    Is it worth bothering?

    I live in hope of one day reaching a left wing wanker.

  31. Rabz

    I live in hope of one day reaching a left wing wanker.

    FFS, why?

    Just hold their bullshit up to the ridicule it deserves and fight the good fight.

    They can’t be converted, except in very rare instances.

  32. ella

    Rabz,

    Cohenite has Numbers on the ropes because the equals sign is always an abdication.

  33. By the way, Gab, the South-African slang, moffie (meaning “pansy” and the like] may derive, I’d contend, from the modern Greek for homosexual, ομοφυλόφιλος or φιλομόφυλος.

  34. jupes

    Take my cock out of your mouth and say that again, Jupes. I can barely make out a word you’re saying.

    Concentrate now Abu.

    There is no moral equivalence between Islam and any other religion in the 21st century. Not by a long shot. Only a fuckwit could possibly pretend that there is. With a couple of obvious exceptions, the people on this blog aren’t numpties, so your pathetic moral equivalence bullshit is not appreciated. Nor are your homosexual fantasies.

  35. Abu Chowdah

    Chowds – claims not to a be moozley.

    Is

    Friend of many moozleys. And other religionists. They all have admirable qualities, but we don’t share a belief in a sky fairy, mate.

  36. Abu Chowdah

    Jupes: pardon? Speak up, tough guy.

  37. Rabz

    we don’t share a belief in a sky fairy, mate.

    Good – then we have some common ground, apart from a love of these.

  38. Abu Chowdah

    We do indeed. Hey, have you seen Better Music’s new store? Amazing. Best music shop in Oz. Makes me almost wish I lived in Canberra.

  39. Rabz

    have you seen Better Music’s new store?

    Not yet, but having just checked out the website I may be there soon.

  40. In the meantime, a resourceful woman has developed a form of tasty, supportive protection.
    (Caution: not safe for work—or mosques.)

  41. Abu Chowdah

    Removal of the above may lead to the makin’ of bacon…

  42. srr

    So, where is the great public outrage from all those ‘moderate’ Muslims and their faithful friends?


    Man arrested in Sydney over genital mutilation of infant daughter

    Updated 25 min ago

    A man has been arrested in Sydney and charged in relation to the alleged genital mutilation of his infant daughter two years ago.

    Police have been told the man allegedly organised for his then nine-month-old daughter to undergo circumcision while holidaying overseas in February 2012.

    Officers were alerted to the incident six months later when the child’s mother took her to a doctor.

    New South Wales Police arrested the man on Tuesday following investigations.

    The man was granted conditional bail and will appear in Manly Local Court later this month.
    Posted 40 min ago

  43. srr


    Baby killer Raymond Akhtar Ali’s new vegie compo bid

    Kay Dibben
    The Courier-Mail
    January 01, 2014 12:00AM

    Convicted baby killer Raymond Aktar Ali wants a payout he received after being served the wrong prison meal to be doubled. Source: News Limited

    A BABY killer who won $3000 compensation last year because he was forced to eat vegetables instead of halal meat in jail now wants more money.

    Raymond Akhtar Ali, who is serving a life sentence for chopping up his newborn baby, has appealed for the payout to be doubled to $6000.

    But the State Government also has appealed against the Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribunal compensation decision, hoping to stop Ali getting any money.

    RTWT at The Courier Mail, and even better still, get the podcast of Michael McClaren on 2GB talk about it tonight. He very well expresses what real, sane, justice loving Australians think.

  44. .

    So, where is the great public outrage from all those ‘moderate’ Muslims and their faithful friends?

    Because most people don’t research or catalogue these horrible crimes in Australia.

    The same goes with for example, most murderers.

    I’m sure if someone sat down and read the case notes of the worst sexual predators and murderers, or serial killers and mass murderers, you could make the most people pro death penalty.

    Most people just don’t want to force themselves to look at the data.

  45. So, where is the great public outrage from all those ‘moderate’ Muslims and their faithful friends?

    On Facebook, for a start.

  46. .

    There is no moral equivalence between Islam and any other religion in the 21st century.

    Yes there is. You are including fanatics, oppressive regimes and cultural practices as part of the religion that true believers don’t want a part of.

    Only a fuckwit could possibly pretend that there is.

    I’m sorry but I’m not a fuckwit. Sorry to disappoint.

    pathetic moral equivalence bullshit is not appreciated

    Hence why we can’t fall for either the naifs on the ABC who pretend there aren’t problems in Islam or falsely deduce they all wanna blow us up.

  47. srr

    numbers, that link yet again shows you to be a liar as well as a cowardly bully for Muslim Men.

  48. srr

    Why is numbers allowed to stay here posting Pro-Jihad links that crash computers?

    I don’t have a computer or Facebook, but as friend let me use theirs.

    numbers link titled, ‘facebook’ goes to a list of screams of, “ALLAH AKBAR!!!”, with only one ‘invitation’ to click on a facebook link to stop the mutilation, which takes you images of big, strong, privileged Muslim MEN, and then the computer bugs out and crashes.

  49. numbers, that link yet again shows you to be a liar as well as a cowardly bully for Muslim Men.

    Is srr an acronym for Severe Reading Retardation?
    From the page I linked to -

    Help end torture of our sisters! Please repost this on your page and get all Muslims to join. JazakAllahkhayr, May Allah reward you for your efforts!

  50. srr

    I’m back on another system now, numbers, and be buggered if I’m going to infect that to, by going back to Pro-Jihad bugging link, which, as I said, you lying piece of poison, does ‘invite you to stop’ the mutilations, via yet another link, which then bugs out your computer.

    I’ve also said, we need a much stronger word than, EVIL.

  51. Megan

    Leveling distinctions, in the way Numbers does, testifies to intellectual bankruptcy.

    Is it worth bothering?

    +1

  52. Megan

    You are beyond rational discourse on this.

    Or any other subject, in my experience. Engaging is a waste of pixels and encourages his delusions of moral and intellectual superiority.

  53. For those (unlike srr) who can read -

    From first link -

    Muslim scholars from around the world have called for female genital mutilation to be banned and those who carry it out to face punishment.

    From second link –

    “But we have brought many senior Islamic leaders from other countries, people Somalis see on Arabic satellite television, to show that this is something we as religious leaders oppose as well.

    “We know the truth, and this is our message for all the people: please, please, please sever the link between Islam and FGM/C. There is no relationship between the two.”

    From the third link (This is a fatwa, by the way) –

    Hence because of all the damages, the psychological and physical pain that FGM causes, the undersigned of this document wish to clear Islam from the accusation that FGM is part of Islamic tradition and stand against this inhuman and barbaric practice. Most importantly, the undersigned to this document consider it amoral and religious obligation, as argued above, for all Muslims here in UK to denounce FGM with one voice loud and clear; and that FGM is an injustice, against the teachings of Islam and that Muslims must act to prevent it from happening.
    This Document is endorsed by the Following Muslim Scholars and religious Leaders:
    Signatories:-
    British Islamic Scholars
    Imam Mamadou Boucom
    Imam Muhammad Amin-Evans
    British Muslim Organisations
    Association of British Muslims
    (We would like to ask you to support this growing open fatwa and put your name down, and or support of your organisation – this fatwa will be formally read out at the Female Genital Mutilation – Finding Answers event on the 30th November 2013 Inshallah)

    Mohammed Abbasi
    (for Association of British Muslims)

  54. I’m back on another system now, numbers,

    I simply don’t believe a word you posted about that link.
    I have linked to it several times in both Apple and MS platforms without a problem.
    I have very effective virus protection, which indicated that site is clean.
    You are making up a rubbish story because I have shown you very clearly that FGM is not a product of Islam, and you are running out of ideas.

  55. Southern man

    I’ve detested all man made religions ever since.

    By what criterion do we define a man-made religion? Are those criteria also man-made? Consequently aren’t we better off using the term belief system if we actually want to debate these issues. All belief systems (athesim, darwinism, christianity etc) are based on presuppositions and can then be debates on an even playing field without subscribing to the myth of neutrality.

  56. John Comnenus

    Numbers,
    You can refer to what Islamic leaders say or refer to what Muslims do under the direction of the Koran. Remember lying to an infidel, or Taqqiya, is permissible in Islam. So I prefer to let the actions speak.

    Here are some actions speaking. Nearly all slavery in the world occurs in Islamic Countries. Every country that has an Islamic population of around 5% starts to experience low level violence, terrorism and general harassment towards the host infidels with calls for a separate legal system for Muslims. Once you get to 10% areas of the host country start to try to secede or gain some kind of quasi independence. The push for Sharia and extra laws to ‘protect’ and benefit Muslims become greater. You start to see the genesis of civil war, armed groups patrolling the areas they want independent and such harassment and abuse of infidels to create Muslim only enclaves where the national law struggles to reach. By the time you get to 20% their is usually some form of regional civil war where Muslims defy the central authority. By the time you try to 40% you are almost certain to be involved in a religious civil war. Once Islam is the majority their is a slow moving genocide against infidels and increasing fighting between rival Islamic groups.

    This is roughly the result of a statistical study I did a few years ago based on I think it was the Chatham House index of wars and the CIA world book of facts for the population sizes. The correlation is very strong despite all styles of government types etc. freedom or democracy, monarchy or dictatorship. Importing Islam is always bad for the infidel host country.

  57. jupes

    Hence why we can’t fall for either the naifs on the ABC who pretend there aren’t problems in Islam or falsely deduce they all wanna blow us up.

    Even the ABC know that there are more than 200 194* Muslim terrorists in the world.

    * Six killed by the Indons yesterday.

  58. cohenite

    Yes, unfortunately I too am sceptical of any ‘moral’ pronouncement by Muslim leaders because of the existence and strong recommendations for Muslims to practice Taqiyya and Kitman; see many instances in the Qur’an for guides about lying to and deceiving infidels.

    Given number’s persistent refusal to understand that Islam is aggressively hegemonic and implacably intolerant of other cultures, particularly Western secular societies I can only assume he has converted.

    On the topic of FGM note this report in the fucking Fairfax rag about how widespread it is and with no mention of Islam except for the word sheikh in the context of a small religious order in Sydney.

    Gutless bastards.

  59. Below in a brief random sample of some countries and their Muslim populations.
    Line them up with these statements.

    Once you get to 10% areas of the host country start to try to secede or gain some kind of quasi independence. The push for Sharia and extra laws to ‘protect’ and benefit Muslims become greater. You start to see the genesis of civil war, armed groups patrolling the areas they want independent and such harassment and abuse of infidels to create Muslim only enclaves where the national law struggles to reach.
    Israel 18%, Montenegro 18%, Singapore 15%.
    Last time I was in Singapore I don’t remember seeing any “no-go” areas or harassment by Muslims.

    By the time you try to 40% you are almost certain to be involved in a religious civil war.
    Brunei 52%, Turkey 98%
    Still waiting for civil war in Brunei and Turkey……………..

  60. srr

    Pru Goward was just on 2GB explaining that a conspiracy of silence and FEAR of OFFENDING (the MUSLIMS’ Culture), is preventing reporting of the thousands of Genitally Mutilated women and girls in NSW.

    She also pointed out that GILLARD wanted it to be called, “CUTTING” but Goward said get off it, it is Mutilation!

  61. John Comnenus

    Numbers,

    Almost certain, not guaranteed. But it might have escaped your attention that the Kurds are in a state of insurrection (on national grounds) against the Turks and there are widespread secular protests against the Islamist Erdogan government.

    But this is what you and your kind always do, argue that the exception disproves the generalisation. No it doesn’t. That is why I did a statistical analysis rather than an anthropological or qualitative analysis where the exceptions are almost always held out to disprove the general. It is for you to prove that Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lybia etc etc aren’t in a state if permanent turmoil generally induced by religion. It is up to you to demonstrate that you can ready get a permit to build a church in Indonesia, it is for you to explain why you have to oh to an embassy to get your child baptised in the UAE or why Christians aren’t allowed to even pray in their own homes in Saudi Arabia, why Afghanistan closed the last Church in the country, why the last few Jews in Yemen are forced out of a land they have lived in for millennia. You cannot deny any of these things as they are empirically proveable facts. Of course you will provide an excuse or reason for any one of these points,. But what they really are is the legacy of Islam every where it is practised.

    Look at a map of all the worst countries in the world for almost every measure of peace, health and prosperity and you will invariably find the Muslim countries at the bottom of the pile.

    Not for Islam are equal rights for women or infidels. Hence at least half the human capital of these countries is routinely lost. The more moderate Islamic countries, often where Sufi established the religion, are better off. But there is always the remorseless effort to radicalise the country.

  62. It is for you to prove that Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lybia etc etc aren’t in a state if permanent turmoil generally induced by religion.

    Just who the hell do you think you are to tell me what I should be “proving”?
    Your arrogance is breathtaking.
    It’s not up to me – I’m not arguing that all the evil in the world is the responsibility of Islam.

    You could argue that the problems are caused by poverty (for example). All those countries have considerable slices of their populations living under the International poverty line of living on less than $2 daily –

    (Pakistan, 60.19, Iraq, 21.41 Syria, 16.85 Egypt, 15.43)

    You could put it down to foreign interference.

    Iraq was invaded and had almost all of its infrastructure destroyed by an army of occupation quite recently.
    Pakistan was a British colony.
    The San Remo conference in 1920 split up Faisal’s kingdom by placing Syria-Lebanon under a French mandate.
    Egypt was under British rule from 1882 until1952.

    You would have to provide a systematic historical analysis to prove that the turmoil in these countries was all a result of Islam.
    You haven’t.Your over-simplification of history is clearly a result of religious bigotry.

  63. james

    Numbers is a bit agitated today aint he?

  64. why the last few Jews in Yemen are forced out of a land they have lived in for millennia.
    What a gem!

    Perhaps you’d like to have a chat to one of the 726,000 Palestinians displaced in 1947-48.

  65. John Comnenus

    Numbers it is you telling us how wrong we are to be worried about Islam. Check your own arrogance before proclaiming mine. Your whole argument is founded on the denial of widespread facts. Address those facts. And the old saw that poverty caused the problems is ridiculous. How was it that the Middle East and Anatolia were so wealthy until the arrival of Islam? Islam is the problem, as is obvious to anyone who has been in the Muslim world, Islam is the greatest motivating factor for everything.

  66. Oh come on

    I admire your patience, John. Numbers is (again) being eye-bleedingly obtuse in his reading of your comment.

    Every country that has an Islamic population of around 5% starts to experience low level violence, terrorism and general harassment towards the host infidels with calls for a separate legal system for Muslims. Once you get to 10% areas of the host country start to try to secede or gain some kind of quasi independence. The push for Sharia and extra laws to ‘protect’ and benefit Muslims become greater. You start to see the genesis of civil war, armed groups patrolling the areas they want independent and such harassment and abuse of infidels to create Muslim only enclaves where the national law struggles to reach. By the time you get to 20% their is usually some form of regional civil war where Muslims defy the central authority. By the time you try to 40% you are almost certain to be involved in a religious civil war. Once Islam is the majority their is a slow moving genocide against infidels and increasing fighting between rival Islamic groups.

    It’s pretty bloody obvious that you’re speaking of countries in which sizeable Muslim populations are a relatively new phenomenon. So nearly all of Numbers’s dopey ‘gotcha’ contradictory examples that he offered to disprove your theory – Turkey, Brunei, Israel, Montenegro – are not contradictory in the slightest. (Let’s leave aside the fact Numbers is so historically-challenged and information-poor that he doesn’t see why offering Turkey, a Balkan state and Israel (!!!!!!!) actually proves your point and disproves his own. For chrissake, Numbers. Buy a newspaper some time.)

    Singapore is an exception to your rule; Numbers is right about that. But Singapore is an exception to many, many rules that hold fast everywhere else.

  67. Tom

    The trollscum is loving all this attention. It’s all he exists for.

  68. Oh come on

    Right. Just read Numbers’s follow-up comments. He’s simply too stupid to engage with. Cheerio, Numbers you dumb shit.

  69. jupes

    It’s not up to me …

    Yet you still have a crack at excusing Islam with the old cannards: ” It’s the poverty and the colonialism. It’s all the fault of the West who made them that way.”

    You moron. Here’s an inconvenient fact: There is conflict on every border where Islam meets another culture. Consider:

    Muslims vs Christians in Indonesia (Sulawesi, Ambon)
    Muslims vs the West and Hindus in Indonesia (Bali)
    Muslims vs Christians in the Phillipines
    Muslims vs Buddhists in the Southern Provinces of Thailand
    Muslims vs Buddhists in Burma
    Muslims vs Hindu in India
    Muslims vs Commies in China
    Muslims vs Christians in the Middle East (ethnic cleansing of Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Libya etc)
    Muslims vs Jews in Israel
    Muslims vs Christians in Africa (Nigeria, Mali etc)
    Muslims vs Christians in Russia
    Muslims vs the West (terrorism)

    No doubt I’ve missed some out but there seems to be a theme here wouldn’t you agree?

  70. John Comnenus

    The Palestinians left voluntarily in order to allow invading Arab armies to massacre the Jews. Not at all unsurprisingly the Jews didn’t want those who would enable their genocide back.

    But maybe you should explain why all the Jews have pretty much been purged from the Arab world?

    Maybe you can neatly explain why plenty of Islamic (and Christian) Arabs live in Israel but no Jews can live in Palestine? One again in places like Gaza there had been millennia of continuous Jewish residence, until that is the creation of modern Palestine. What did the Jews get for ethnically cleansing Gaza in an effort to offer land for peace? They got constant rocket attacks and terrorism.

  71. Oh come on

    He’s simply too stupid to engage with.

    Very uncivil of me. Apologies, Numbers. I should have written

    It is not productive to discuss this issue with Numbers because he is evidently uninformed.

  72. Oh come on

    Oh oh jupes BUT DON’T FORGET SINGAPORE!!!!!

    It sinks your whole theory.

  73. Islam is the greatest motivating factor for everything.

    This would have to be the clearest evidence that your bigotry is obsessive. Sounds like something from the DPRK newsagency.

    Once Islam is the majority their is a slow moving genocide against infidels and increasing fighting between rival Islamic groups.

    Haven’t noticed much evidence of this in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Albania, Comoros, and Jordan.
    I must have a chat to my brother to ask him how he survived the slow moving genocide during his recent travel in Jordan.
    I was obviously also very very lucky in Malaysia. It has all become clear after reading comments above. Obviously the Kuala Lumpur cabbie who nearly killed us was an unsuccessful jihadist. He wasn’t by the way, “slow moving”.
    Obviously he hadn’t read John Comnenus’ script.

  74. Oh come on

    The trollscum is loving all this attention.

    I’m not so sure, Tom. Numbers is a special kind of troll.

    I believe that he genuinely doesn’t even realise he’s a troll.

  75. james

    Perhaps you’d like to have a chat to one of the 726,000 Palestinians displaced in 1947-48.

    Should have been more Numbers.

    Arabs stole that land in the first place after all.

  76. Fisky

    Haven’t noticed much evidence of this in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Albania, Comoros, and Jordan.

    Genocide is a bit extreme, but I note that the Christian population is increasing steadily in Israel, having fallen from about a quarter to less than 5% of the M/E as a whole in the last 100 years. As for Indonesia – you’ve got to be kidding! There has been massive sectarian violence against Christians in the provinces particularly since the fall of Suharto.

  77. John Comnenus

    Numbers,

    Just because you and your family, like me, weren’t killed doesn’t mean that the genocide isn’t occurring. In every country you mentioned the religious minorities are smaller now than they were 20 yrs ago. Argue the facts, not some isolated personal experience. I can’t believe you are so ignorant to include Saudi in your list. And what is a greater motivator than Islam in these countries? I would love to know

  78. Oh come on

    Hmmmm. I wonder how Islam became the dominant religion in the Middle East and beyond? I guess Muhummad and his happy gang of pacifist followers were just really, really good at doorknocking and spreading the good word. Geez, the Mormons could learn a thing or two about effective proselyting from those guys.

  79. Fisky

    Arabs stole that land in the first place after all.

    It’s true – the creation of Israel was vital to reversing Brown Male Privilege by erasing the legacy of over 1,000 years of Arab patriarchal colonialism in the Levant. It has been replaced by a vibrant democracy with equal rights for women, gays, and religious minorities. Good.

  80. no Jews can live in Palestine

    There are 350,143 Israeli settlers living in the West Bank, as well as around 210,000 living in Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem.

  81. james

    Haven’t noticed much evidence of this in

    Indonesia,

    Christian schoolgirls being decapitated and religious cleansing on the outlying Islands.

    Saudi Arabia,

    Destruction of Shia and sufi shrines, banning of non Sunni places of worship.

    Malaysia,

    Passive aggressive legislation against non Islamic minorities, particularly the Chinese.

    Albania,

    Kosovo and the selling of non muslim body parts, but aside from that people generally have more to fear from Albanians for being Albanian rather than being Muslim.

    Comoros,

    That would be the tiny Indian Ocean nation of under 800,000 people?

    and Jordan.

    Jordan is a desert full of Muslim refugee camps.

    Anyone who is not Muslim in that god forsaken land would have a very unfriendly welcome if they wished to stay.

  82. Fisky

    But maybe you should explain why all the Jews have pretty much been purged from the Arab world?

    It’s an important point – 900,000 Jews were booted out of Arab countries in the 1940s, which is higher than the number of Palestinians who were exiled as a result of the just and merciful Jewish War of Independence in ’47-48.

  83. It has been replaced by a vibrant democracy with equal rights for women, gays, and religious minorities. Good.

    In fact, Fisky, a quick survey of the surrounding neighbourhood indicates that it’s the ONLY example of a vibrant democracy with equal rights for women, gays and religious minorities in the area.

  84. Oh come on

    The Islamic equivalent of Watchtower that Muhummad was passing out back in the day must have made for gripping reading, considering that he was able to convert much of the ME to Islam. Quite the shepherd.

  85. Hmmmm. I wonder how Islam became the dominant religion in the Middle East and beyond? I guess Muhummad and his happy gang of pacifist followers were just really, really good at doorknocking and spreading the good word.

    You could ask the same question about Christianity and the New World.
    The Christians did a much more efficient job – America, North and South, Australia and New Zealand, and South Africa.

    And they were about as gentle and caring as the Moslem conquerors.

  86. The Islamic equivalent of Watchtower…

    If you were told “read these copies of Watchtower and Awake or we’ll behead you with these here swords”, you too might find such literature interesting.

  87. John Comnenus

    The only reason Jews can live in the West Bank is because of Israeli military protection and they are under constant threat. They have lived there for Millennia but the minute that the IDF leaves, so will they or they will die. The Palestinians want to kill off all the Jews, just like the Koran tells Muslims to.

    Read the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. There are none for infidels and women, except for the second class rights they are granted in the Koran.

  88. John Comnenus

    The difference in all of Numbers arguments is that his historical examples go back centuries whereas all the counterpoints are contemporary.

  89. Oh come on

    It’s an important point – 900,000 Jews were booted out of Arab countries in the 1940s, which is higher than the number of Palestinians who were exiled as a result of the just and merciful Jewish War of Independence in ’47-48.

    And let’s not forget the Grand Mufti of Palestine’s wicked collaboration with the Axis, his affinity with Nazism, and his approval of The Final Solution. He later became President of the All-Palestine Government. Must have been a popular guy with his people.

    I wonder why the Israelis didn’t want such people living in their country? It’s a real head-scratcher!

  90. John Comnenus

    No OCO,

    According to Numbers Jews are just religious bigots who are just close minded about not letting the Palestinians use them as human sacrifices according to the Koran. How xenophobic!

  91. Oh come on

    You could ask the same question about Christianity and the New World.
    The Christians did a much more efficient job – America, North and South, Australia and New Zealand, and South Africa.

    Dear Numbers

    For your own edification, you might want to consider how the above is even remotely germane to this discussion.

    Still drawing a blank? OK. How does it reinforce any point you have made in your discussion with John? How does it undermine or contradict any argument or assertion that others who don’t agree with you have made?

    Hope this helps.

    Best

  92. Fisky

    You could ask the same question about Christianity and the New World.
    The Christians did a much more efficient job – America, North and South, Australia and New Zealand, and South Africa.

    And they were about as gentle and caring as the Moslem conquerors.

    Quite so, but if you don’t see how that has fatally undermined your argument only a few comments earlier, then no amount of remedial reading comprehension lessons will be enough for you.

  93. dover_beach

    You could ask the same question about Christianity and the New World.

    A red herring if there ever was one.

  94. Fisky

    Dover, if I were charged with condensing Numbers’ arguments into a sentence, it would seem he is saying that Muslims are wonderful, peaceful and tolerant, and also that they are just as bad as the evil Christian conquerers of the New World.

    It is truly frightening that he was ever appointed principal of a state school.

  95. It is truly frightening that he was ever appointed principal of a state school.

    It does demonstrate one of the reasons behind Australia’s declining educational standards, though. I’ve met some wonderfully stupid school principals in my time, and also many who seemed to be teetering on the verge of nervous collapse.

    PS. Lots of inadequate Western men secretly think Islam is pretty hot stuff. After all, it offers them instant validation with an apparently very small price tag, plus a licence to be a misogynist bully for the rest of their lives both here and in Paradise.

  96. Fisky

    PS. Lots of inadequate Western men secretly think Islam is pretty hot stuff. After all, it offers them instant validation with an apparently very small price tag, plus a licence to be a misogynist bully for the rest of their lives both here and in Paradise.

    Yes, I’ve noticed particularly that a lot of sadistic Left-wing men have a hard on for Islam, and for roughly the same reasons that Hitler did.

  97. Gab

    It is truly frightening that he was ever appointed principal of a state school.

    Assuming that is the truth of course.

  98. srr

    It is truly frightening that he was ever appointed principal of a state school

    …but teachers like numbers also drove children out of working class, State Schools, and freed them of the lifetime of leftist propaganda that came with a career in academia.
    Many of those children grew to be those who built and held the forts of common sense, for other resistance fighters in the war against the freedom to be just, to take refuge in.

  99. Talking of principals of state schools, there was one on ABCNews24 a few minutes ago. Asked to explain how on-line testing might work, all he could do was appeal for more training, more funds, and more training, and assert, in half a dozen different ways, inarticulately, that Victorian schools are quite diverse, and different at times, and various, and not all alike. They’re not all the same, you know.
    With principals like that, it’s no wonder we have such increasing semi-literacy.

  100. Percy

    Based on your description Deadman, I think I know that guy. He assumed various bodies in my six years of HS, but undoubtedly it was always the same man.

  101. Tintarella di Luna

    OMG a certain numerical troll has been fed to explosive capacity – do not fee the troll — he has done so much damage do not further validate him

  102. A Lurker

    It is enlightening to see Numbers’ steadfast and unwavering defence of a religion that would in certain fundamentalist Muslim countries, and without second thought, snuff him out for simply being Christian, and in other Muslim countries, forbid him to publically (or even privately) worship.

    However of all the atrocities, killings, terrorist acts, FGM, and every other totalitarian action perpetuated by Islam, it is one small thing that really makes me understand the evil that lies at the heart of Islam – and that small thing is that my husband and I would have, in many Muslim countries, to be very circumspect about showing affection to one another in public – and I mean simple affectionate gestures like a kiss, hug, or holding hands.

    Any religion that deems simple gestures of loving affection between a husband and a wife as being embarrassing or inappropriate or indecent is, at heart, evil; and that’s not even touching on how they treat homosexuals or unmarried lovers.

  103. Lurker, I think PDAs are negotiable in many cultures – not everyone is into demonstrative stuff, even between the married. I know in India it used to be considered vulgar, but that’s now changing.

    Culture is one thing; cultures can and do change. But proscribing hand-holding between married people because it’s offensive to God , and is thus unlikely to stop being offensive to God in the near future, is another.

  104. Fisky

    Any religion that deems simple gestures of loving affection between a husband and a wife as being embarrassing or inappropriate or indecent is, at heart, evil; and that’s not even touching on how they treat homosexuals or unmarried lovers.

    You make a good point – the biggest problem is that there is no escape clause. If Muslims were able to freely renounce their religion, or large parts of it, without facing threats to their lives/livehood/family relations, then the puritanical forces would have no leverage anymore, and those who wish to be left alone would just laugh at them. However, it is the threat of violence to apostates, and the fear of being called an apostate for exercising too much individual conscience, that keeps people in line. In fact, you could argue that if it weren’t for the various degrees of threat (from ostracism to execution) to deviants, Islam would barely exist at all.

  105. Gab

    In fact, you could argue that if it weren’t for the various degrees of threat (from ostracism to execution) to deviants, Islam would barely exist at all.

    The religion of peace and freedom. LOL and numbers laughingly equates it to Christianity.

  106. Fisky

    However of all the atrocities, killings, terrorist acts, FGM, and every other totalitarian action perpetuated by Islam, it is one small thing that really makes me understand the evil that lies at the heart of Islam – and that small thing is that my husband and I would have, in many Muslim countries, to be very circumspect about showing affection to one another in public – and I mean simple affectionate gestures like a kiss, hug, or holding hands.

    This is also true of countries that have been ruined by centuries of Islamic colonisation. I faced the same issue when I travelled with my partner through India years ago. However, the hostility that we attracted for ‘being too close’ would be much preferred to leaving her unattended in a public place for more than 10 seconds…

  107. wreckage

    The quote from Numbers was from a friar, who leveraged the influence of the Church to halt the depredations of the Spanish nobility upon the natives.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolom%C3%A9_de_las_Casas

    Wherein we learn that de las Casas is considered amongst the first advocates of human rights, and that he had considerable influence in law reform and the reconsideration of the ethics of colonial conquest. He was influential in politics and a religious crusader. When, you may ask, did the Christian world begin substantial reforms, ultimately leading to universal human rights? 1970? Wait no, 1880!

    1542.

    Numbers linked to one of his polemics, the horrors of which catapulted him into politics roughly 500 years ago.

    But he was a latecomer. The Dominicans had been kicked out of the colonies c.1511 for their dissent on the treatment of natives and slaves. They denied the colonists confession, which in Catholicism is rather serious, and which said very clearly that they considered the state of affairs to be utterly beyond any notion of Christian conduct.

    From Wikipedia:

    In December 1511, a Dominican preacher Father Fray Antonio de Montesinos preached a fiery sermon that implicated the colonists in the genocide of the native peoples. He is said to have preached, “Tell me by what right of justice do you hold these Indians in such a cruel and horrible servitude? On what authority have you waged such detestable wars against these people who dealt quietly and peacefully on their own lands? Wars in which you have destroyed such an infinite number of them by homicides and slaughters never heard of before. Why do you keep them so oppressed and exhausted, without giving them enough to eat or curing them of the sicknesses they incur from the excessive labor you give them, and they die, or rather you kill them, in order to extract and acquire gold every day.”

  108. Oh come on

    Tintarella – isn’t it common to feed a pig up so it’s nice and plump when you slaughter it? That’s what’s happened here to the hapless Numbers. Alternatively, his head has exploded quite of its own accord.

    Either or, it’s a result. Thanks for playing, Numbers, come again!

  109. Oh come on

    Any religion that deems simple gestures of loving affection between a husband and a wife as being embarrassing or inappropriate or indecent is, at heart, evil; and that’s not even touching on how they treat homosexuals or unmarried lovers.

    Should be (but won’t be) Liberty Quote

    In fact, you could argue that if it weren’t for the various degrees of threat (from ostracism to execution) to deviants, Islam would barely exist at all.

    Yes, it’s hard to see how else humans would allow a religious body (or political body – hi, Kim!) to micromanage their lives to such a degree if it weren’t for the brute force, 100% stick approach* used on those who do not submit.

    *of course, the afterlife’s great! So they tell us.

  110. Oh come on

    Oops forgot to blockquote the following:

    In fact, you could argue that if it weren’t for the various degrees of threat (from ostracism to execution) to deviants, Islam would barely exist at all.

  111. cohenite

    PS. Lots of inadequate Western men secretly think Islam is pretty hot stuff. After all, it offers them instant validation with an apparently very small price tag, plus a licence to be a misogynist bully for the rest of their lives both here and in Paradise.

    Not me, a sly perve of the ladies at the beach and home to be whipped by the missus to round off a perfect day.

  112. wreckage

    Cover all the pretty girls with sacks. Then cover all the flowers, sunsets, and other manifestations of beauty.

  113. .

    Lots of inadequate Western men secretly think Islam is pretty hot stuff. After all, it offers them instant validation with an apparently very small price tag, plus a licence to be a misogynist bully for the rest of their lives both here and in Paradise.

    Find me a bunch of “inadequete” men and I bet you London to a brick bugger all of them take up the offer.

    Obviously you never heard of Fred Phelps, Warren Jeffs or Little Pebble.

  114. wreckage

    The primary problem with Islam is death for apostates. It’s current, and universal, in Sharia law right now.

    Everything else is negotiable.

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