Multiculturalism and cultural confidence

Mark Steyn draws our attention to Sir Charles Napier who when told of the Indian custom of suttee famously said:

Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.

As Steyn says:

General Napier’s response was impeccably multicultural. … What my readers liked about my little bit of Napier karaoke at live appearances was its cultural cool. It wasn’t an argument for more war, more bombs, more killing, but for more cultural confidence. In the long run, that’s more effective than a drone.

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369 Responses to Multiculturalism and cultural confidence

  1. johanna

    Yep, the Big Lie of contemporary multiculturalism is that all cultures are equal, and can live harmoniously together without treading on each others’ toes.

    Of course, what really happens is that the culture that refuses to give ground when push comes to shove wins. So far, it is Western culture that mostly ends up backing down.

    Real multiculturalism (which I support) is along the libertarian model – you can do what you like unless and until it infringes on my rights, and the rule of law. Under “my rights” I include: not using my tax money for evangelical activity (especially in schools); not claiming exemptions from, or modified application of, the law on “cultural” grounds; and not seeking to undermine liberty in general on “cultural” grounds.

    Mind you, I’m not sure that things are quite as dire as some others here believe. As someone who spends a bit of time in Parramatta, I can report that on Friday and Saturday night Church St is full of young people of every conceivable ethnicity wearing fashionable clothes, glued to their smartphones, with plenty of mixed-race couples who attract no noticeable comment.

    Of course, the burka-clad women are not allowed out of the house, so we don’t see them. But, there are thousands of young Muslims and members of other faiths milling around there who seem to be at least as Westernised as a crowd of young people you might see on the Northern Beaches.

  2. Notafan

    Be it so. This mutilation of young female children is your custom; prepare the kitchen knife. But my nation has also a custom. When men (or women) mutilate children we jail them, and fine them heavily. My police officers shall therefore arrest and our courts jail all concerned when the child is damaged. Let us all act according to national customs.
    Wish the UK and Australia would follow through on this.

  3. But my nation has also a custom. When men (or women) mutilate children we jail them, and fine them heavily

    For mutilation I’m happy to revive our former cultural practice of cat’o'nine tails. Appropriate. We’re too soft. The sharia law types should get all orgiastic over that, being as whipping is one of their cultural punishments.

  4. dover_beach

    Real multiculturalism (which I support) is along the libertarian model – you can do what you like unless and until it infringes on my rights, and the rule of law.

    The problem with this formula is that what is considered to infringe ‘my rights’ depends upon the substance of culture; here Western and libertarian.

  5. johanna

    db, I speak as an inhabitant of a nominally Western country – libertarian, not so much. But there are plenty of punters out there who may not be libertarians, but who abhor things like the recent example of a male Muslim defendant who refused to stand up in court because the magistrate was a woman. Mind you, he was able to suspend his cultural and religious principles in a subsequent hearing, probably after his lawyer pointed out the penalties for contempt of court.

  6. stackja

    Of course, the burka-clad women are not allowed out of the house, so we don’t see them.

    Bankstown has burka-clad women and barely clad women.

  7. dover_beach

    But there are plenty of punters out there who may not be libertarians, but who abhor things like the recent example of a male Muslim defendant who refused to stand up in court because the magistrate was a woman.

    No doubt. My point remains however.

  8. Rabz

    multiculturalism is a cancer. In some instances it may be benign (“duuuhhh, think of da great restaurants, man, duuuhhhh”), in others it is malignant, be that slow acting or rapidly metastasizing.

    A classic example – the patois known as “Jafaican“.

    Pretty much every illiterate, innumerate, ahistorical young idiot in England now speaks in this ‘accent’ and it is rapidly wiping out a myriad of inner city accents that the UK was well known for.

    It’s gotten so bad that noted leftist wanker (BIRM) Paul Wally had this to say on the subject of Jafaican:

    Interviewer: “So, you send all your children to private schools, why?”

    Wally: “I don’t want my kids coming home speaking like Ali G – I’m just not having it”.

    As someone who considers themselves to be culturally English, this rapid, infuriating decline is utterly inexcusable.

    :x

  9. cohenite

    Multiculturalism and cultural equivalence only becomes relevant if one particular culture in the cultural mix possible under the Western democratic system seeks to usurp that system and replace its values with its own.

    Islam is currently doing that under the guise of the moderate muslim.

  10. Rabz

    the moderate muslim

    Other examples of this phenomenon:

    the marxist intellectual

    the tasteful greek

    the sane south american

    the sophisticated bogan

    the incorruptible union official

  11. cohenite

    Very good.

    The scientific climate scientist.

  12. johanna

    Hey, Rabz. I’m not sure what you mean by “moderate Muslim”, but I know a Muslim family who are friends of 10 years standing who are just – Muslim by religion. They have no truck with radicals, or loathsome customs that keep women underfoot. All their kids (including the girls) went to Uni, and none of them did Arts. They run a business in which the husband and wife are equal partners – and she is about as downtrodden as I am.

    They are ethnically Indian, although she was born here.

    Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

  13. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    The Muslim men can certainly push the limit. In Court with a rellie a few months back I sat waiting most of the day and saw some interesting cases. One was a bearded young man defending a charge of stopping in a no-stop zone. His excuse: he had stopped to pray. He faced the Magistrate while he held both of his hands insolently in the pockets of his Western shorts. He was given every consideration and got off with only Court costs. Eat My Shorts, as they say in America.

  14. Rabz

    I’m not sure what you mean by “moderate Muslim”

    cohenite first drew attention the utterly ridiculous concept in his comment at 4:06pm.

    Joh, do you seriously think you can trust any so called muslim, given how prone so many of them appear to be to radicalisation?

    Serious question – there is no other religion that preaches death to unbelievers that I’m aware of.

  15. johanna

    Rabz, I’m not disputing the radical theology here. What I am disputing is that my friends of long standing, who are culturally very different from the Stone Age variety found in Afghanistan and the Middle East, cannot be trusted because they happen to be Muslims. I, for one, would trust them more than I would many eco-Christians, for example. They are honest and hard-working small businesspeople, just like many European migrants of the 1950s, with the same aspirations for their children.

    Maybe they don’t fit your definition of “moderate Muslims”, but most large religions have a wide spectrum of views. And none of them has a monopoly on virtue, or evil.

    Not disputing for a moment the dangers of the Islamic political movement. But saying that all Muslims, ipso facto, are untrustworthy is a bridge too far. My friends are Coalition voters, BTW.

  16. Rabz

    Look – I’m really not in the mood to get into a debate about this.

    My father had some very prescient things to say about islam – a ‘religion’ he knew a hell of a lot about, as did one of his best friends, a Rabbi who spoke Arabic as well as four other languages.

    The location of huge deposits of crude oil in shitholes such as Saudi Arabia has been an absolute tragedy for the world, given that those vile bleeps have been subsequently able to fund fundamentalist islamist radicalism across the planet (although mainly in the West) over the last five decades.

    My dad made a very good point – the West not weaning itself off oil after WW2 would be a mistake that we’d all come to regret. He pointed out the massive problems that would arise from any potential scarcity of oil as well as the potential for the Saudis and their ilk (the Iranians at the time) to fund mischief in the West and the havoc both could cause for civilization.

    If only there was an alternative. Then the staggeringly vile, stupid, medieval sand monkeys could eat it, for all I’d care.

  17. Rabz

    Maybe they don’t fit your definition of “moderate Muslims”, but most large religions have a wide spectrum of views. And none of them has a monopoly on virtue, or evil.

    Joh, with respect, this is a staggeringly naive view of the world and it’s current particular ‘religion’ inspired problems.

  18. johanna

    Fortunately, things like shale oil, better conventional oil extraction techniques and gas fracking have already made inroads into the Middle East and Iran/Iraq energy strangleholds (despite Obummer’s best efforts to prevent it.) The US in particular need never import anything from its enemies again if it made up its mind to do so.

    This is where the greenies are so pernicious – they simultaneously support cultural relativism at the West’s expense and oppose measures that will remove strategic advantages from the opponents of the West.

  19. Rabz

    Joh – you raise some very good points above.

    We never did find a cheap, logical alternative to crude oil, however, hence our ongoing reliance on it.

    And yes, the greenfilth are utterly treasonous scum, committed to the destruction of our way of life.

    They must be made to pay dearly for this evil, irrational, anti human idiocy.

    :x

  20. Rabz

    We never did find a cheap, logical alternative to crude oil, however, hence our ongoing reliance on it.

    Ooops – and we never will, if the sources you cited above, for example, aren’t freed up.

  21. johanna

    Rabz, I call it not seeing everything in black and white. Happens when you have been a policy analyst for a long time. Perhaps it is a softness of the brain – but since I loathe greenies and the institutional Left, I like to tell myself that it hasn’t quite turned to mush yet.

    Anyway, when my friends, who are off on holidays (and sent me a Christmas card before they went), come back – I’ll narrow my eyes and look out for petrol bombs from now on. :)

  22. Notafan

    One of the reasons I wish Australia would properly exploit our uranium resources.

  23. Rabz

    Just look out for the young males.

    They’re the potential ‘bermbs’.

  24. james

    The problem with moderate Muslims is that technically according to Islamic scripture the more moderate they become the less Muslim they are.

    I worked with a whole warehouse full of non practicing muslims of south Asian extraction, great blokes who loved a laugh and a beer as much as the rest of us.

    Then we got a new manager who was a bit of a Lebanese Sunni nutcase. All the other Muslims hated him and could barely stand to be around him, but when he started putting the screws on them about observing Ramadan they had no comeback the only one who stood up to his crap was the shia bloke who told him to go to Hell.

    Six months later they were observing prayer times.

    It’s like Catholic guilt times 1000, no matter your cultural background a mosque monkey, particularly one who has completed the hajj has an amazing pull on barely practicing co-religionists.

    Reminds me of the stories my grandparents told me about being Catholics in rural Ireland. You have to see it to believe it.

  25. johanna

    Rabz, the boys work in finance and accounting, for large and reputable firms. They are clean shaven and mainly interested in getting ahead in their careers. The girls (they have two of each) are respectively a science teacher and an office manager for a big outfit. I’ll be sleeping safe in my bed as far as that family is concerned.

    I do take james’ point, though, about the operation of cultural pressures. After all, it is the same point that Cats of a religious persuasion often make about how we should improve our own society.

    But the evidence seems to indicate that such compliance is only skin-deep for most people. They might go along to get along, but that is not the same thing as genuine conversion or belief, let alone practice.

  26. Rabz

    They are clean shaven and mainly interested in getting ahead in their careers.

    So were the 9/11 terrorists. Until they no longer were, of course.

    And the rest, as they say, is history.

  27. sabrina

    If you drive past Latrobe, Monash or Melbourne Unis during mid-day and particularly on a Friday, you will see groups of young men and women flocking towards make-shift mosques or prayer houses.
    It seems they come to get western style education, but somehow turn more towards religion. Most seem to be from Asian background – Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Indonesian in particular.
    Just outside of Monash Uni, quarter acre block with old house have now been bought and being converted into islamic prayer house. It is hard to see what good will come out of this at all for the coomunity at large.

  28. johanna

    Now we are getting silly.

    Of the 9/11 crowd, all were foreign nationals, 15 being from Saudi Arabia, 2 from the UAR, and 1 each from Egypt and Lebanon.

    None were Australians of Indian descent who went to school and university here and are now furthering their careers in accounting and finance, and buying homes.

  29. Brett_McS

    Once you realize that Islam is very closely analogous to Nazism (the doctrines closely correspond – and Islam was praised by Hitler – except that the Islam is probably more extreme) you realize how ridiculous the term Moderate Muslim is. Say “Moderate Nazi”.

    There were people who were dragooned into the service (the former Pope being one) – those who detested the ideology and who left at the first opportunity – and then there were the actual soldiers and officials who were more or less enthusiastic, but at the least were good with it. A Muslim in the west has no reason to stay one any more than a person has to stay a member of a (neo-)Nazi party.

  30. .

    johanna is right, whilst it is good to be wary, condemning every Muslim and those from normal places like here or the USA is bollocks.

  31. .

    Of course, the burka-clad women are not allowed out of the house, so we don’t see them. But, there are thousands of young Muslims and members of other faiths milling around there who seem to be at least as Westernised as a crowd of young people you might see on the Northern Beaches.

    Not in the same way I’d say.

    The Northern Beaches twang is a very recognisable vocalisation.

  32. Rabz

    Joh – yeah, you’re right. The London bombers were an example of what you and dot have noted above.

    Oh wait – they weren’t.

    How many Australian born morons have been noted as leaving this country to go and ‘fight’ in that stinking sewer, Syria, for example?

    This naivety is ridiculous. I used to think we were all part of the ‘family of man’, once, as well.

  33. DrBeauGan

    All religions demand that you give up on your individuality and natural inclination to doubt and all human beings who are sane find a compromise. I see leftism, progressivism, greenslime, call it what you will, as a far greater threat to western civilisation than Islam. It has come a lot closer to defeating us and indeed may have done so.

  34. johanna

    Rabz, I will patiently explain again that Muslims from Middle East sewers like Syria and stone age cultures like Afghanistan in no way resemble those that I have described above. It is like saying that a US extreme fundamentalist Christian represents all Christians, including Jesuits and Lutherans.

  35. Jock

    Enjoyed Steyns piece. Along the same lines, I recall a certain British Ambassador to the Court of the Chinese emperor (19th C) who refused to prostrate himself before said emperor, explaining he only bowed to his Brittanic Majesty. The Emperor was affronted and in order to ensure the ambassador bowed, had the doorway to the throne room reduced in height. The idea being that he would bow no matter what. Ingeniously the ambassador entered the throne room backwards, and therefore bum first.

  36. gnasher

    Johanna, on other threads here your posts have been very interesting & well worth the reading, on this islamic topic you are wrong, your Muslim friends will drop you like a hot spud when their islamic friends make the rules here & the way Australia is following the Euro wimps that may not be too far away.
    Once the mob starts baying for infidel blood your mates will offer you up & your family also to save themselves.
    Rabz is not wrong & please point out the “US extreme fundamentalist Christian” who goes killing…maybe they were in Russia today?

  37. Rabz

    And Joh, I will patiently explain again that your neighbores’ spawn are just as susceptible to radicalisation as any other islamic idiot.

    The clue is the ‘i’ word.

    Put it this way, I’m going to see an ‘extreme fundamentalist Christian’ from the US a mile off.

    One of our wonderful new ‘multicultural’ neighbores?

    Probably not so much.

    They take our softness for granted.

    The evil, imperialist scum.

  38. DrBeauGan

    Jock, another triumph of free thought against bureaucratic totalitarianism. Maybe we should do the same at welcome to country ceremonies.

  39. DrBeauGan

    Turn around and bow, that is. Dropping your daks optional.

  40. Chris M

    A bad Moslem can be a nice person.

    A good Moslem is always a very bad person.

    Good = Koran following. Bad = never read it. The Koran is very similar to Mein Kampf (no joke).

    Moderate Moslems are those who support and finance jihad, extremists are those that carry it out.

  41. 1735099

    Johanna
    It’s refreshing to see logic as opposed to paranoia (obviously Rabz’ diagnosis).
    People have short memories.
    Extremists in Northern Ireland were blowing people up in the name of God not too many decades ago.
    Violence is not confined to Islam.
    I live and work with Muslims.
    They demostrate the full range of affiliation, from observant to casual, just as Christians and Jews do.
    Attitudes such as those displayed by Rabz and others who post here present a much greater threat to peace and security than moderate Muslims living and working in our country.

  42. Abu Chowdah

    Moderate Moslems are those who support and finance jihad, extremists are those that carry it out.

    What a load of bullshit you spout, professor.

  43. Carpe Jugulum

    They demostrate the full range of affiliation, from observant to casual, just as Christians and Jews do

    So, of the 22,167 terrorist attacks since 9/11 how many were carried out by Christians screeching ‘Jesus is my Lord’ and then blowing themself and many innocents up. How many attacks were carried out by Jews shrieking ‘Moses is the true prophet’ and then hacking the head off a hogtied journalist.

  44. .

    The Koran is very similar to Mein Kampf (no joke).

    I would like to know more. I can’t recall Hitler writing about a cow at the beginning…

  45. Rabz

    Extremists in Northern Ireland were blowing people up in the name of God not too many decades ago.

    muslims are blowing people up now, you moron.

    BTW, I was in NYC in 1993. Guess what happened that year, in that place?

    Oh, that’s right, muslims trying to tear down the twin towers.

  46. Carpe Jugulum

    I can’t recall Hitler writing about a cow at the beginning

    I don’t think he wrote about having sex with an animal made it unclean either nor did Adolph connsumate his marriage with a 9 year old child.

    But they both hate the Jews, that is a reasonable comparison i suppose. Not sure what either wrote about hacking the heads off of kidnapped civilians.

  47. Rabz

    BTW, syphilis, Joh is a friend of mine, but please feel free to keep up your pathetic attempts to try and create some animus between us.

    We’ll laugh about it in a couple of days when we next catch up in person.

  48. .

    Extremists in Northern Ireland were blowing people up in the name of God not too many decades ago.

    Wow.

    This is the worst summation of Northern Ireland I’ve ever seen.

    The positions of Northern Ireland is about how either side perceives self determination.

    I suggest you spend some time to sit down watch a few documentaries on youtube about the troubles onwards from Irish or British broadcast TV from the 1970s onwards.

    You are really quite ignorant and naive on this.

    In no way shape or form do any of the pundits, republicans or loyalists ever, ever sum up the Irish problem in any manner approaching your glib and utterly incorrect take on things.

  49. .

    Billions of Muslims, a couple of hundred terrorists.

    The argument that Islam is intrinsically dangerous is not convincing.

    Speakign to an Afghan War vet, a lot of the shit he saw justified in western law or Sharia law was simply a means to justify tribal ends.

    “Ismail is an infidel, Achmed, you should probably bust out the AK-47 and shoot him”
    “Ismail is an al Qaida leader, Captain Ames-Comstock III, you should probably call your USAF or RAF buddies and launch an airstrike on his mud hut”

    Like the Burqa etc. A lot of this is tribal stuff being front run as Islam.

  50. There'sonlyoneTonyAbbott

    Extremists in Northern Ireland were blowing people up in the name of God not too many decades ago.

    I don’t think God had anything to do with the troubles more like the subject natives inhabitants and the invaders from the UK lording it over them

  51. nilk, Iron Bogan

    One of the biggest problems we have with this cultural relativism run amok is the problem of moderate muslims. As Johanna has pointed out, there are some lovely muslims out there. They are our friends and neighbours, our workmates, our kids’ friends. (I’m speaking for myself here, btw).

    However, as everyone else seems to note, there’s that “i”-word.

    Sorry, I’m tired of islam being pushed down my throat as an example of a nice religion hijacked by a tiny minority of extremists. How many members of that minority did it take to bring down a couple of skyscrapers again? Oh, 19 all up.

    As for the homegrown muslims being nice and integrated, there was that fellow who worked with kids in the community who went and blew himself up in London, if I recall.

    Closer to home we have muppets like David Hicks who convert then go off to kill Jews (or whoever’s on the other side of the hill) and Shannon Conlon, who is all about sharia for Australia and al Rayah, the black battle standard, flying over Parliament House.

    Nope. Not interested. I’m also not interested in a community where a woman has to put up with being beaten by her husband because to kick him out for the protection of herself and her children means that she’s a bad mother. I guess, since it’s in the quran and the Reliance of the Traveller, it’s okay.

    Then there’s the bloke who refuses to shake your hand and just gives you a greasy stare because you’re uncovered catmeat in his house. And he’s been here for decades. Mind you, the wife and kids are lovely, lovely people.

    I can take a hint though.

    The mob praying in Bourke Street Mall every saturday arvo get my goat, too. There are more than enough prayer rooms all around the place; at sports grounds, in colleges and tucked away where you’d least expect them – like Movie World on the Gold Coast!- but no, we need street dawah.

    I met a lady at a party once, and since we were in the company of those who speak freely about such things, she told me of her experience when the Twin Towers came down. She knew people over there, so had rushed home to call the States. When she got home, her neighbours were having a party in the front yard. They were dancing, had the food out, and a stack of people enjoying themselves.

    She asked them if they’d heard the news about the planes hitting the buildings and was told, “yes, of course.” That’s what they were celebrating.

    She then asked them why they were so happy, and they said that it was good. That America was evil, and that islam was greatest. They would win. Just wait and see.

    These were people she’d shared a street with for years. Their families grew up together, they did neighbourly things, but when push came to shove, the neighbours chose the ummah over the West. Ten years after 2001, and this lady was still upset.

  52. .

    Sorry, I’m tired of islam being pushed down my throat as an example of a nice religion hijacked by a tiny minority of extremists. How many members of that minority did it take to bring down a couple of skyscrapers again? Oh, 19 all up.

    You just argued the for position you oppose fairly well.

    I met a lady at a party once, and since we were in the company of those who speak freely about such things, she told me of her experience when the Twin Towers came down. She knew people over there, so had rushed home to call the States. When she got home, her neighbours were having a party in the front yard. They were dancing, had the food out, and a stack of people enjoying themselves.

    How often did that happen though?

    We were much more ethnically and culturally homogenous in 1973 and we had filthy hippies spit on returning servicemen.

  53. Tom

    Attitudes such as those displayed by Rabz and others who post here present a much greater threat to peace and security than moderate Muslims living and working in our country.

    I agree. This is a terrible site for extremist fucktards like you.

    Why don’t you just fuck off then instead of spending 18 hours a day here?

    Because you are an arrogant cnut who, like the rest of your fucktard imams, think you know so much better than the average, moral Australian.

    GO AND FIND A SITE THAT ACTUALLY WANTS YOU, YOU DISEASED, DERANGED PIECE OF SHIT.

  54. Rabz

    dot – with respect squire, your counter arguments are ridiculous.

    For starters, hippies aren’t violent, even if they are expectorating on people.

    Again, they rely on our restraint.

    I’m sick of being expected to show restraint – especially as a normal, respectable upstanding member of my Parrotville Community.

    I just long to sock these ingrates in the mouth.

    Very hard and very repeatedly.

  55. Rabz

    Attitudes such as those displayed by Rabz …

    … have not yet prevented scum such as you from being awash in ‘free’ taxpayers’ transfers, you loathsome hippie deadshit.

    :x

  56. nilk, Iron Bogan

    The filthy hippies were in the minority, dot.

    As for arguing against my position, you left out the bit about scriptural mandates for things like terrorist acts. Feel free to point out to me where Jesus or Buddha or even Cthulu proclaimed that they had been made victorious by terror.

    Then again, Cthulu may have said something like that.

    We’re talking a religion that has a religious mandate for wife-beating (4.34). I find that a little incongrous when it’s also advertised as a religion that honours and respects women.

    With respect to the lady at the party, she is only one person, true. She’s not the only person I have know who had friendships with nominal muslims disintegrate after 9/11.

    Take it back to the source materials.

  57. JohnA

    It’s sometimes an advantage to come late to a thread.

    As I have scanned through the various comments to and fro, I notice that the entire discussion is about degrees of fundamentalism, but confined within the limits of equivalence.

    I am a serious Christian, rather than a mere pew-warmer, and I ask you all to compare and contrast Christianity and Islam via the answer to this question:
    What is the faith’s teaching regarding the attitude of adherents to outsiders?
    As I understand Islam (yes, second-hand, but from sources I know to be reliable – missionariies who have lived and worked in the Middle East for over 20 years), the answer is that an infidel deserves death at the hands of a serious muslim because he has rejected Allah (even before he has been introduced to the muslim faith).

    As I understand Christianity, the answer is that everyone is a rebel against God, but I have laid down my arms, changed sides and obtained a pardon (mechanics of that process later), so why don’t you (unbeliever) do the same, and join me on the guaranteed journey to heaven? If you choose not to, be it upon your own head, but I will still hold out the hand of reconciliation to you.

    And that’s before we get to actual doctrinal differences over who God is, who Jesus is, aspects of fatalism and so on. There is simply no equivalence on any serious level between Christianity and Islam.

  58. .

    For starters, hippies aren’t violent

    Well, I present to you Bill Ayers and Abbie Hoffman.

  59. jupes

    Billions of Muslims, a couple of hundred terrorists.

    A couple of hundred? FMD there are millions of them.

    The argument that Islam is intrinsically dangerous is not convincing.

    To paraphrase Frasier: Tell me dot, what colour is the sky on the planet you live on?

  60. JohnA

    Oh, and the same distinction applies to the case of one who abandons the faith: for the Christian there is generically the hope, however faint, of future restoration, whereas Islam condemns and then acts as swiftly as possible to execute the judgement.

  61. JohnA

    Wake up, Rabz.

    For starters, hippies aren’t violent, even if they are expectorating on people.

    Go back and have a look at the rent-a-crowd who were being decidely violent to the peaceful anti-abortion marchers on October 12th in Melbourne. Attacking both people and property, without any restraining action by the Police. They even attacked and abused a friend of mine who was trying to offer them bottled water on a hot day.

  62. .

    Jupes, how many terror attacks since 1970 have these millions of terrorists committed?

    You are referring to Government oppression, not terrorism.

  63. There is simply no equivalence on any serious level between Christianity and Islam.

    The Christian soldier kills with regret, the Islamofascist with conviction.

  64. jupes

    Jupes, how many terror attacks since 1970 have these millions of terrorists committed?

    22,167 since 9/11. Of course that list is incomplete.

    You are referring to Government oppression, not terrorism.

    No. I’m refering to actual, real terrorists, e.g. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Al-Shabaab, Ansar Al-Islam, Lashkar-e-Taiba, and now the Muslim Brotherhood to name just a few.

    As I said there are millions of the fuckers.

  65. jupes

    The Christian soldier kills with regret, the Islamofascist with conviction.

    I’m pretty sure there’s been no small number of Christian soldiers killing the Taliban with a fair bit of conviction in the last ten years or so.

  66. nilk, Iron Bogan

    How about Boko Haram? They’ll murder and mutilate you, but at least they won’t eat you. Not like some of those ‘rebels’ in Syria, or previously in Ramallah.

    Mind you, in Ramallah the police were involved in that one, so I guess you could blame government forces.

  67. .

    I agree on your last point, jupes. Ditto for our WWII veterans.

    So maybe 80,000 attacks since 1970. In the lifetime of several billion Muslims.

    4 out of 100,000 Muslims is a terrorist, if there is one terrorist for every attack.

    There are 4.7 murders per 100,000 in the US (and yes there isn’t a 1:1 for murders to murderers).

    These are not directly comparable but if you right on terrorist numbers, they have a lot of (thankfully) uncommitted members.

  68. jupes

    They’ll murder and mutilate you, but at least they won’t eat you.

    Hey, moderate Muslims.

    But there must be only a half dozen or so of them according to dot, because there’s only a couple of hundred Muslim terrorists in the whole world. No not a couple of hundred terrorist groups but a couple of hundred actual terrorists.

    BTW Boko Haram actually means that Western education is forbidden. Really. That’s what this group of enlightened Muslims actually are trying to implement. They do this by attacking schools and students amongst other things.

  69. .

    jupes – is it necessary to verbal someone when you can’t be arsed quantifying things?

  70. jupes

    4 out of 100,000 Muslims is a terrorist, if there is one terrorist for every attack.

    Which of course there isn’t. There are plenty more training and assisting them and millions more who haven’t been able to get to the West or Israel. But hang on a minute let’s try the same stupid calculation with your ridiculous statement. 80,000 attacks caused by 200 terrorists. That’s 400 attacks by each terrorist. Wow that’s pretty impressive when you consider some of them were suicide bombers.

    There are 4.7 murders per 100,000 in the US

    A ridiculous childish comparison. The 22,167 terrorist attacks have murdered far more than 22,167 people. Think about the Bali Bombing as an example.

    These are not directly comparable but if you right on terrorist numbers, they have a lot of (thankfully) uncommitted members.

    Do not confuse competence with intent. Really dot, sometimes you say the most stupid things.

  71. jupes

    Me:

    But there must be only a half dozen or so of them according to dot, because there’s only a couple of hundred Muslim terrorists in the whole world.

    Dot:

    jupes – is it necessary to verbal someone when you can’t be arsed quantifying things?

    Dot (earlier):

    Billions of Muslims, a couple of hundred terrorists.

    Really dot, sometimes you say the most stupid things. BIRM.

  72. jupes

    4 out of 100,000 Muslims is a terrorist, if there is one terrorist for every attack.

    Further on this bit of bullshit:

    So far 20 Muslims have been convicted for terrorist offences in Australia. None of them actually committed a terrorist attack because they were caught before they were able to commit one. This is a victory for law enforcement and intelligence but cost a lot of treasure and effort.

    How many terrorist attacks do you reckon would have occurred in Australia if the authorities didn’t bother to put in any effort?

    Two hundred terrorists in the world dot? That really is weapon’s grade dumb.

  73. johanna

    Forget trying to drive a wedge between Rabz and me about this, as he says above. It ain’t happening.

    Being civilised people, we can have a vigorous debate without taking it personally.

    It seems to me that different parts of the Muslim world (and its various sects) are in very different places. The primitives such as those in Afghanistan and some parts of the Middle East are a very long way from the people that nilk and I mentioned. While I am no fan of Ed Husic politically, I don’t for a moment believe that he is a traitor who is trying to destroy our culture.

    We have short memories about our culture, too. It wasn’t that long ago that women in many Western countries were not allowed to own property in their own right once they were married, or even vote. FGS, in living memory women were sacked from the Public Service when they got married, because their husbands would support them and they didn’t need to have any money of their own.

    We should remember also that some Christian nations undertook colonialism with “the Bible in one hand, and the sword in the other.” It was only a few hundred years ago that some strands of Christianity were very militant indeed, and used force to impose their religion.

    My point is that generalisations are not going to help us, and could do a lot of harm. Why alienate people like my and nilk’s Muslim friends by treating them like Jews in Europe in the C19th?

    As for religious texts, I am not going there except to say that there is plenty of smiting of religious opponents in the Old Testament.

  74. dover_beach

    All religions demand that you give up on your individuality and natural inclination to doubt …

    Wrong on both counts. It’s amusing that atheists have little to no ‘natural inclination’ to doubt their own statements.

  75. Rabz

    JohnA, that lot are ferals. Calling them hippies will get a rise out of them.

    They’re still deadshits, if it’s any consolation.

  76. irving J

    The idea that islam in the modern world is a Law & Order issue is delusional.

    Islam is a political issue, pure and simple.

    Islam is a political system and requires a courageous and resolute political response.

    Things must be reaching a tipping point when even the Guardian is warning of Islamic genocide of kuffar.
    Persecution of Christians in the Middle East is a crime against humanity

  77. A Lurker

    A late weigh-in to the Islamic terrorism discussion.

    Some people are arguing that only 4 out of 100,000 Muslims might be terrorists; others are arguing hundreds more per 100,000. My opinion is you are getting stuck in the minutiae when the big picture remains that Islamic terrorism exists, it is thriving, it is not going to go away any time soon, and any one of us (or a friend or a member of our extended family) could potentially be a victim of a terrorist incident – either killed outright, or leaving the body broken or the mind utterly damaged.

    And yes, the potential for those ‘moderate, nice’ Muslims to be radicalised does exist – we might be isolated, but Australia isn’t automatically immune from the troubles plaguing the rest of the world – and the more of these people we bring in (especially not knowing their background history, their associations, past military links, or real reason for coming here) pushes up the likelihood of a terrorist act in Australia from relatively low, to moderate; and pushes up the potential that some of these newcomers might radicalise the ‘moderate, nice’ Muslims here. Which is why I cannot understand the open-borders supporters.

    In my opinion, our only defence is to severely limit the numbers who come here legally, vet those who are allowed in, closely monitor known or potential troublemakers and trouble spots, and deport those who have come in on boats, who can’t supply ID papers, who can’t tell a good, verifiable story about why they have come here, and who have proved to be more trouble than they are worth.

    I know it’s not very libertarian to do all the above – but to enjoy the liberty of going about one’s business in Australia without fearing the threat of being blown sky-high at the local Westfield shopping centre, sporting event, train station, bus, New Year’s eve event etc., by some crazy-eyed fundamentalist Muslim (or convert), there must be some imposition on the lives of the people who follow the Islamic cult.

    So, while we defend ourselves, we wait for Islam to reform itself into a religion that can peacefully coexist with the rest of the modern world – a reformation that will take generations, if at all.

  78. james

    Islam is a faith that is doctrinally expansionist and violent.

    To argue NAMALT is to miss the point.

    It would be like arguing that since most Catholics around the world either use contraceptives or engage in pre marital sex then that faiths prohibitions on such subjects don’t actually exist.

    The Islamic faith explicitly calls for expansion through violence or threats of violence, if you think this has no effect on the mentality of the average Muslim you should broaden both your reading and your social circle.

  79. james

    Jo if you seriously think that the “smiting” in the OT is remotely comparable to the Koran then you really need to read both texts.

    Why is it that people without the faintest clue regarding religion, faith and the motivations imparted thereby feel themselves qualified to pontificate?

    Jo and dot are both intelligent, sensible writers, no doubt one day they will actually read the Islamic texts they are currently discussing.

  80. Notafan

    deport those who have come in on boats, who can’t wont supply ID papers,

    The Islamic faith explicitly calls for expansion through violence or threats of violence, if you think this has no effect on the mentality of the average Muslim you should broaden both your reading and your social circle.

    To put is simply the Koran is a World Domination Handbook.

  81. Chris M

    Things must be reaching a tipping point when even the Guardian is warning of Islamic genocide of kuffar.

    Kaffir = infidel. Moslems are infidels (it’s a pagan religion / theocratic system).

    So far 20 Muslims have been convicted for terrorist offences in Australia. None of them actually committed a terrorist attack

    Terrorist attacks are dreadful but just a reminder it is not the only bad thing going in this group of violent kaffirs.

  82. cohenite

    People misunderstand what a moderate Muslim is. In Islam there are 2 types; those who practise jihad and those who don’t. The latter variety are ‘moderate’.

    But all types of Muslims share 2 qualities; firstly, they want sharia, and secondly, they think Western society is decadent. That is beyond doubt as the surveys and studies referred to here show.

    As the European experience shows once Islam reaches about 5% of the population strife follows with no-go zones, and increasing expressions of Islamic demands for sharia and Islamic values.

    People who say that they know reasonable ‘moderate’ Muslims miss this point.

  83. nilk

    And just remember, ChrisM, as kaffir, or kuffar, we are najis.

    Along with urine, dogs, faecal matter, alcohol and other fun stuff.

    Yeah, I’m happy to tolerate a religion that designates me as filth.

  84. .

    I have spoken the truth jupes and it has made you really angry.

    There are 20 terrorists in Australia out of 23 million Aussies and 480,000 Muslims.

    Don’t be scared. We do have ASIO, ASIS, the AFP and ADF actually fighting to prevent terrorism or to root out these organisations.

  85. jupes

    I have spoken the truth jupes and it has made you really angry.

    LOL. You have made the stupidest statement of the year on this blog and I find it hilarious.

    There are 20 terrorists in Australia out of 23 million Aussies and 480,000 Muslims.

    No. There are twenty convicted terrorists in Australia. Big difference.

    We do have ASIO, ASIS, the AFP and ADF actually fighting to prevent terrorism or to root out these organisations.

    Yes we do at great cost to the taxpayer. Which goes to show that there are more than 20 terrorists in Australia.

  86. irving J

    For every weaponised muslim ie jihadist that explodes itself or is caught, the vacuum sucks in another so called “moderate”.

    Ironic for dot to call on the protection and expansion of state to completely violate our privacy and rights so that it can root out a few weaponised muslims. So much for small state and government.

    The islamic structure is a bit like soccer australia, a large base of games which feed the more able to the next level of play, and to the next etc, with international representation the pinnacle of the pyramid.

    Claiming that it is only the weaponised pinnacle of the islamic pyramid that is the issue is deeply deluded.

    The entire structure feeds and supports that tip.

    The political response to islam will be increasingly debated as law & order fails to curtail “islamic values” being forced down the throat of its host society. The entire islamic structure grinds and grates on its host society at every level.

    Whether its violent assault on jews in bondi, harassing bikini clad women in cronulla, skafe style gang rape of women, paedophile groomers, or muslims in bikie gangs, moderate ie unweaponised muslims make their presence felt throughout society.

  87. lotocoti

    People misunderstand what a moderate Muslim is.

    Isn’t that someone who’s run out of ammunition?

  88. Peter56

    In the western world, there is no such thing as a good/moderate muslim. Yes, there are many that are friends with the likes of johanna and others, but that’s just subterfuge. If they had to choose between the likes of johanna or their vile religion, sorry johanna (like in The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas, spoken by Charles Durning as the Governor), ‘You lose’.
    And johanna, when the likes of numbers comes in to bat for you, your argument is in deep trouble. Think Mariana Trench.

  89. .

    Whether its violent assault on jews in bondi, harassing bikini clad women in cronulla, skafe style gang rape of women, paedophile groomers, or muslims in bikie gangs

    They are not terrorists and their religion is simply an excuse.

    Jupes if you want to count people who haven’t yet committed a crime as criminals, there are an infinite number of criminals.

    To those who “just know” what hundreds of thousands of Australian Muslims are really thinking, good on you for such keen intelligence – pity you did nothing yourself to stop terrorism and have zero predictive ability to help the authorities.

    This is cargo-cult politics.

  90. 1735099

    Perhaps it’s a good time, halfway through my sixth decade, to take a dispassionate look at the times I’ve lived through. So many of the whelps that post here, scarcely out of nappies, have no idea because they get their information from ranty blogs.
    In my lifetime I’ve seen the Right use fear (the most primitive and base of all our human emotions) to hold people in thrall to maintain political power. It’s all they have, after all.
    In the first half of my life the bogey was Communism. In the second half it is Islam.
    Neither have harmed this country. Despite all the hysteria, hyperbole and straight out xenophobia, neither have provided an existential threat to our peace and security.
    It took Right aligned Fascism (the Axis in WW2) to do that.
    Darwin was bombed – remember? I doubt that Tojo was of the Left, or worshipped the prophet Mohammed. Nor did Hitler or Mussolini as far as it is known.
    And a Labor PM led the nation in its time of greatest peril.
    If we are going to talk about fear, my lived experience has taught me that the extreme Right and its camp followers are, and always have been, the greatest danger to my security and prosperity and that of my children.
    At least none of my offspring have been shanghaied to fight in its name, but whilst they are in power, anything is possible.

  91. .

    Piss off numbers. Communism wasn’t a bogeyman.

    Whether its violent assault on jews in bondi, harassing bikini clad women in cronulla, skafe style gang rape of women, child molestation groomers, or muslims in bikie gangs

    They are not terrorists and their religion is simply an excuse.

    Jupes if you want to count people who haven’t yet committed a crime as criminals, there are an infinite number of criminals.

    To those who “just know” what hundreds of thousands of Australian Muslims are really thinking, good on you for such keen intelligence – pity you did nothing yourself to stop terrorism and have zero predictive ability to help the authorities.

    This is cargo-cult politics.

  92. 1735099

    Communism wasn’t a bogeyman

    Clearly you weren’t around in the late fifties/early sixties.

  93. irving J

    They are not terrorists and their religion is simply an excuse..

    You are wrong dot, its not an “excuse” it’s a cause. The root cause, the religion tells them we are filth, our women can be raped, our property stolen, we can be enslaved and killed and in doing so the “criminal” will be rewarded with 72 eager virgins and a palace larger than the middle east.

    Islam is anything but a law & order issue, it is a political issue.

    Islam is the greatest threat to liberty active in our times.

  94. Percy

    It took Right left aligned Fascism

    There we go.

  95. cohenite

    Numbers you are either deranged or despicably disingenuous:

    In the first half of my life the bogey was Communism. In the second half it is Islam.
    Neither have harmed this country. Despite all the hysteria, hyperbole and straight out xenophobia, neither have provided an existential threat to our peace and security.

    The enemy is always totalitarianism; and labels describing totalitarianism such as right and left are meaningless; the argument about whether the Nazis were right wing is specious and patently wrong, as with the Japanese which was a society entirely militarised; the fact that communists were routinely executed during this period does not mean the effect of Japan’s militarism was not like Communism. Neither were similar except in the effect they had; which was expansionary and oppressive to both individuals and particular designated groups.

    Communism shared these qualities and was aggressively expansionary and vilely oppressive.

    Islam is the perfect religion. With an inherent sectarian conflict it unites only to combat any individual rights based society. It does not have a centralised authority but franchises itself in every host nation. It is implacable and without restraint in lying and obfuscating while utilising every right within the host nation to expand.

    People who do not understand Islam like Joanna are at best fools. Your acceptance and apology for Islam is worse.

  96. A Lurker

    If we are going to talk about fear, my lived experience has taught me that the extreme Right and its camp followers are, and always have been, the greatest danger to my security and prosperity and that of my children.

    It’s a good thing then that you never experienced Communism, eh Numbers, otherwise you might have to reconsider your opinion (a difficult thing for a Lefty to achieve).

    I’m sure the 20,000,000 people who died under Stalin’s Communist regime in the USSR, and the twice as many 40,000,000 who died under Mao Zedong’s Communist regime in China can rest easy mouldering in the cold and dark earth knowing that Numbers believes that the extreme Right is a greater threat to Number’s own security and prosperity than Communism ever could be.

    Here’s a hint Numbers, if you believe the extreme Right to be such a threat to your own security and prosperity, why don’t you pack your bags and upsticks to North Korea which seems to practice the ideology that you prefer. Or perhaps you may be put off by the 3,000,000 who have died in various nasty ways (including starving to death during famines) under that Communist regime since 1948.

    So, you were saying…?

    p.s. You might want to lay off the Kool-Aid.

    My statistics were drawn from this site.

  97. 1735099

    The enemy is always totalitarianism

    Yes, and my personal experience of that (in 1969) was that it was imposed by the Right, in the guise of fear of the Communist bogeyman.

    The Right continues to use fear as a political tool, and Labor, inasmuch as it has succumbed to bipartisan brutality with its treatment of asylum seekers is no better.

    Asylum seekers make a perfect target. They are at the same time different, and clearly identifiable, but most of all, they are Muslim.

    That’s the trifecta, when it comes to bogeymen.

  98. nilk

    In the first half of my life the bogey was Communism. In the second half it is Islam.

    To you, perhaps, Numbers. You see Communism as a mere bogeyman because you obviously don’t see any problem with the forced redistribution of people’s goods and services. All hail the Glorious State and all that.

    As for islam, you seem to find it all cute and cuddly too. Doesn’t it bother you that in our women’s hospitals we have departments that deal with the treatment and education of women who have been genitally mutilated? Doesn’t it bother you that there are now women’s shelters in places like Dandenong specifically for women of ‘immigrant’ background (ie whitey doesn’t understand our culture so we need our own dv shelters)?

    The Skaf brothers were happy to stand up in court and proclaim that in their culture non-muslim females are fair game. I take offense to the implicit insult towards myself and every other non-muslim woman I know.

    You, for all your lefty, feminist cred don’t have a problem with that. Compassion my arse.

    I guess you’ve joined the ranks of those sweeties who are so tolerant they’ll cut their own throat when the jihadis burst through the door. Wouldn’t want to offend anyone or put them out now, would you?

  99. cohenite

    Yes, and my personal experience of that (in 1969) was that it was imposed by the Right, in the guise of fear of the Communist bogeyman.

    That’s just fucking nuts.

    What

    impositions

    you fruitcake?

  100. The Right continues to use fear as a political tool, and Labor, inasmuch as it has succumbed to bipartisan brutality with its treatment of asylum seekers is no better.

    This would be the same Labor that developed, instituted and maintained the White Australia policy for decades.

  101. Gab

    Forget arguing with him, people. He thinks Communism is the be all and end all to all inequality. Yeah, sure he was conscripted into the Army but as Kev Gillette has pointed out, he wasn’t forced to go to Vietnam. He still blames the Liberals even though conscription was a Labor barrow pushed often, but we won’t talk about that. I am heartily sick of hearing his daily bleating about ‘communism is wonderful’ and ‘I was done wrong by some 44 years ago’ and it makes me wonder just whose side he was on in Vietnam.

  102. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    as Kev Gillette has pointed out, he wasn’t forced to go to Vietnam.

    Gab, having crossed swords with Numbers on the matter, is there a link to back up your statement? I can’t find anything on Kev Gillette’s website, but I don’t pretend to be the most computer literate of people.

  103. Gab

    Kev
    #1020597, posted on October 2, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    Numbers,
    CO Ron Grey called us all on parade and we were all given the option of volunteering for overseas service or not. If you missed that point of the CO’s then you were most probably still in a white rage for having been called up which wasn’t voluntary.

    You simply weren’t paying attention!

  104. 1735099

    Nilk
    For the record, genital mutilation is abhorrent.
    Criticising Islamaphobia doesn’t mean I (or anyone else) support extreme practices (generally of tribal origin) carried out in its name.
    Again, being critical of those who use Communism as a political threat doesn’t make me (or anyone else) a Communist.
    Your binary tendencies reinforce my observation that most extremists on the Right can’t entertain two conflicting ideas at once.

    Gab
    The spelling is Gillett, not Gillette (As far as I know, Kev has nothing to do with razors).
    I’m not sure what you’re on about, but there is a meme going around that all Nashos were paraded and given a public choice to make about deployment to Vietnam.
    I have no recollection of this, and I’m pretty sure I would have remembered it.
    My memory is my choices were deployment or jail.

  105. Gab

    The spelling is Gillett, not Gillette

    Oh yeah, sorry Kev for putting an extra ‘e’ on the end of your name. Clearly doing this means I was all wrong about numbers.

    LOL.

    but there is a meme going around that all Nashos were paraded and given a public choice to make about deployment to Vietnam.

    Then you’d better address your commie concerns about this to Kev Gillett.

  106. .

    1735099
    #1129250, posted on December 31, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    Communism wasn’t a bogeyman

    Clearly you weren’t around in the late fifties/early sixties.

    I lived my early life with a Russian nuclear weapon aimed not far from home as a secondary target.

    It threatened the lives of anyone born before 1989.

  107. .

    The Skaf brothers were happy to stand up in court and proclaim that in their culture non-muslim females are fair game.

    Islam isn’t a culture, nor is that true in Islamic states.

    The Skaf brothers and company had their own bizzare culture.

    The root cause, the religion tells them we are filth, our women can be raped, our property stolen, we can be enslaved and killed and in doing so the “criminal” will be rewarded with 72 eager virgins and a palace larger than the middle east.

    Where does it tell them that?

    Martyrdom in its current form is a recent invention.

    Your own Government is a greater threat to your liberty than existential ones.

  108. nilk

    Numbers there is no such thing as “islamophobia”, and female genital mutilation is practised predominantly in islamic cultures. Circumcision is mandatory for males and desirable for females if you want to go all doctrinal.

    FGM is practised in Indonesia and parts of Africa, for example. Those two zones are literally worlds apart so what could be the glue that holds this habit in those areas? Oh, how about sharia law? Yeah, that’ll do it.

    Islam is a complete, enclosed system. There is no get out of islam free card, you do not pass go, and you do not collect 99 bottles of beer.

    The penalty for apostasy is death, and that has never been abrogated. It never will, either.

    Dot, feel free to send me your address and I’ll buy you a copy of the Reliance for your birthday next year. Everyone should read it.

    Failing that, the Hedaya is available for a free download (not got the link to hand) and that’s even more entertaining. That one hasn’t been sanitised by the Al Aqsa Uni, and so has all the information on how to look after your female slaves. How soon before selling or after buying you can make use of them, for example.

  109. Gab

    FGM is practised in Indonesia and parts of Africa

    and also in Australia.

  110. nilk

    True dat, Gab. And also in Britain – although it’s more a tendency to send the girl back to Africa for a holiday and do the deed there.

  111. lotocoti

    Communism wasn’t a bogeyman

    Perhaps not.
    But the number one retailer of your preferred brand caused more than a few sleepless nights.

  112. Gab

    The hedaya.

    Reliance of the Traveller: Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, is also available online free as pdf download.

  113. Fisky

    Criticising Islamaphobia doesn’t mean I (or anyone else) support extreme practices (generally of tribal origin) carried out in its name.

    Note that Numbers is trying to find a racial angle in female genital mutilation. Instead of correctly assigning responsibility to reactionary religion, Numbers blames black people. Appalling bigotry.

  114. .

    FGM is practised in Indonesia and parts of Africa, for example. Those two zones are literally worlds apart so what could be the glue that holds this habit in those areas? Oh, how about sharia law? Yeah, that’ll do it.

    It’s not part of Islam. It is approved by a sect.

  115. Circumcision is mandatory for males and desirable for females if you want to go all doctrinal.

    I avoid the use of the word ‘circumcision’ for females, because there’s no foreskin involved. I know that literally it means ‘cutting round’, but it’s got a specific cultural meaning that relates to males having their foreskin removed.

    Female Genital Mutilation is a more accurate term. There are no health, hygiene or pleasure-related reasons for this practice, which includes clitorodectomy, infibulation and a range of other nasties.

    People being people, you can teach women to see this as honorable, much in the way you can teach men to think that killing a woman is equally honorable.

  116. nilk, Iron Bogan

    FGM is indeed a more accurate term, Phillipa. This woman uses the term “female genital cutting”, because in her community, the full infibulation is not practised.

    Interesting to note that it’s considered an islamic practice and not a Malay one.

    How did FGCbegin in the region?

    While there is a much debate about FGC as experienced in the African continent, the literature on the subject generally disregards the ritual as practiced in Southeast Asia. Some scholars contend that when Islam spread to Southeast Asia in the 13th century, female cutting was also introduced to the region. However, there exists scarce literature on the beginnings of FGC in this area. The most informative source on the incidence of FGC in Southeast Asia can be found in a chapter of a recent anthology about Muslim women’s rights. The chapter details the history of the practice based on local reports dating from the colonial Dutch East Indies and contemporary sociological and anthropological research.[iii]

    There exists no convincing evidence that any form of FGC predated the spread of Islam to the region. In fact,, Hindu and Buddhist beliefs prevailed in Southeast Asia before Islam and the followers of both faiths reject both male and female circumcision. Further, some 19th century syncretist Muslims in Java rejected FGC as well, considering it an ‘Arab custom’. However, most of the population declared it to be optional. The royal families of Java also employed a non-Arabic word for FGC such as kres or tetesan (‘pricking’). Among the orthodox Muslims, the term sunat perempuan or khitan perempuan (‘female circumcision’) is more commonly used, until today. [iv]

    She notes that circumcision is not actually referred to in the quran, but it is still mandatory for men and considered either desirable or okay for women, depending on which school of islam you follow. All schools follow the same quran.

  117. 1735099

    Numbers blames black people. Appalling bigotry

    Appalling ignorance.
    The term “tribal” has nothing to do with race.
    It denotes a specific social arrangement, seen across almost all races at various times during their development, and observed in groups as disparate as the Bedouins and my Celtic ancestors.
    I’ll give you some advice for free – avoid cheap shots – they often richochet.

  118. Fisky

    The term “tribal” has nothing to do with race.

    Numbers, please don’t insult the readers’ intelligence. We have been around long enough to recognize a racist euphemism when we see one, and you did use a racist euphemism. In your attempts to distract attention from religious reaction, you tried to play up racial stereotypes about Africans, who are all members of ‘tribes’ apparently. Revolting.

  119. johanna

    Well, thanks for telling me that my friends of long standing will throw me under the bus when called because they are Muslims. I know that this is rubbish.

    Some of the comments in this thread belong on a putative C19th blog about the Jews. They are inherently untrustworthy, morally corrupt, etc. The amount of selective reasoning going on here is not worthy of the Cat.

    As I said in the OT, this line of thinking is not only morally reprehensible, but also tactically stupid.

    There seems to be a lot of inability to disentangle theology, culture, history and practice. It’s just like “The Joos!”

    Think about it, please, and Happy New Year to all.

  120. 1735099

    We have been around long enough to recognize a rascist euphenism…..
    What amazing psychic powers you possess!
    You have somehow read my mind, discovered hidden carefully crafted strategies and sniffed out latent racism through your magical screen and keyboard.
    What actually happened is that you have projected your racist stereotyping on my comment, and tried to use it as a form of abuse. The most bizarre aspect is that your racism is so embedded that you aren’t even conscious of it.
    Keep digging…….

  121. .

    Well numbers you did accuse perhaps foreign born McDonalds workers of being on 457 visas…

  122. Infidel Tiger

    We have short memories about our culture, too. It wasn’t that long ago that women in many Western countries were not allowed to own property in their own right once they were married, or even vote. FGS, in living memory women were sacked from the Public Service when they got married, because their husbands would support them and they didn’t need to have any money of their own.

    Halcyon days. We really have regressed as a species.

  123. 1735099

    The amount of selective reasoning going on here is not worthy of the Cat
    With respect, Johanna, you’re far too charitable.
    Reason has little to do with it. It’s all about bigotry, fear and hate.
    Still, it’s encouraging to see it being called.

  124. Sid Vicious

    Hey, Rabz. I’m not sure what you mean by “moderate Muslim”, but I know a Muslim family who are friends of 10 years standing who are just – Muslim by religion. They have no truck with radicals, or loathsome customs that keep women underfoot. All their kids (including the girls) went to Uni, and none of them did Arts. They run a business in which the husband and wife are equal partners – and she is about as downtrodden as I am.

    They are ethnically Indian, although she was born here.

    Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    They are not muslim johanna. If you read the holy kran from the front to the back and then from the back the front you will not find any passage that says something like…”after the year 2001 muslims may describe themselves as moderate, semi-moderate, radical, or extreme. Muslims may now pick and choose the parts of the holy kran that they like and reject that which displeases them. PBUH.”

    You are a muslim or you ain’t, it’s as simple as that.

  125. johanna

    Yep, and you’re a Jew or not, simple as that. You’re a Christian or not, simple as that.

    Do you bigots ever listen to yourselves?

  126. Notafan

    Does not the war in Syria give some insight? The foreign born fighters are of every nationality middle class born in Eur the UK etc. It is Sunni versus Shia versus Alawite with the Christians just being massacred, They want to create al-sham . The Koran is explicit in dealing death to Jews. Sharia law is a rights hierarchy Muslim men over women Muslim over non Muslim, in reality it is also Arab Muslim over non Arab Muslim Look closely at the treatment of Christians in Muslim countries look at how they treat servants and migrant workers.

  127. Tel

    You are a muslim or you ain’t, it’s as simple as that.

    Sid, you should explain that to the Syrians, you could solve a lot of problems.

    You’re a Christian or not, simple as that.

    Ha ha, yeah, what was that thing the Irish have been holding grudges about for 500 years? Something Christ would have approved of I’m sure.

  128. Sid Vicious

    2:2 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

    There it is simply stated: the kran is the Book about which there is no doubt. I surely hope johanna doesn’t label muslims as bigots.

    Tel, I have no desire to conduct any workshops in Syria. You will note that I made no mention of the IQ of those who cleave to any religion. That includes the Irish. I hope you aren’t assuming that I’m a christian, jew or wiccan. I have better things to do with my time.

  129. sdfc

    So Notafan, Muslims are pretty much all fundamentalists as far as you know.

  130. Abu Chowdah

    Note that Numbers is trying to find a racial angle in female genital mutilation.

    And he’d be right, as much as I hate to agree with him.

    If you can’t acknowledge the racial motivator then you are as mealy mouthed as the Left on similar issues (such as the white nine trial).

  131. Abu Chowdah

    Yep, and you’re a Jew or not, simple as that. You’re a Christian or not, simple as that.

    Do you bigots ever listen to yourselves?

    No, they don’t. On this issue there are more cnuts per square inch here than anywhere else on the net.

  132. Abu Chowdah

    Female Genital Mutilation is a more accurate term. There are no health, hygiene or pleasure-related reasons for this practice, which includes clitorodectomy, infibulation and a range of other nasties.

    Yes, it’s an appalling, barbaric practice that should be eradicated.

  133. nilk, Iron Bogan

    Johanna, people are people, and they believe a range of things. They also choose whether to act on their beliefs of not.

    In the case of islam, they are not allowed to have choice; not when the mullahs are in charge. Here in Australia muslims* are free to choose. Unfortunately for us, groups like Hizb ut Tahrir follow and establish themselves in our communities and hold wonderful seminars designed to educate Australian muslims about islam and how they should practice it. They can quote sura and ayat to persuade and cajole even the most relaxed muslim, and those so persuaded can turn ‘radical’ before you know it.

    Anjem Choudary is one such, over in Britain, for example.

    This is my concern. How many people go along to the Lakemba mosque and hear the likes of Sheikh Catmeat proclaiming that women who don’t stay home or cover up get what’s coming to them? Remember, he wasn’t shut down. He was just told not to speak in public. He was not disowned or cast out, and he was allowed to stay in this country because he cut a deal with Keating for votes.

    The biggest victims of islamic terrorists, the islamists, if you want to call them that, are people like your friends. They are the people we know and like, who are trapped in their little box of sharia norms whether they realise it or not.

    The penalty for apostasy is death, and to orthodox muslims, allah’s law stands above ours.

    When our government panders to sharia norming, such as letting Carnita Matthews get away with claiming racism because she refused to show her face to a policeman, when muslims are allowed to show contempt to the Court by refusing to stand when the magistrate enters, then it becomes harder in the long run for those moderates who just want to live a good life and participate in our communities.

    *I don’t know about anyone else, but I find it fascinating that the grammar check on this blog highlights ‘muslim’ as requiring a capital “M”, but ‘christian’ doesn’t.

  134. sdfc

    Nilk moves the argument to all Muslims are potential fundamentalists. Any seconders?

  135. srr

    Thank you milk.

    And yes I to have a windows phone that capitalises and corrects everything islamic and nothing Judeo/Christian.

  136. johanna

    We seem to be at cross-purposes here. I absolutely agree that the Lakemba Mosque is pernicious, that radical Islam is a real threat, and so on.

    What I abhor is the notion of declaring every individual in a religious group (in this case of a billion or so people) as inherently bad or untrustworthy because of their religion. It it no different to what was said about the Jews. It is Jihad in reverse.

    I repeat, it’s just wrong morally. It’s untrue in real life. And, it’s tactically really, really dumb.

  137. srr

    …nilk…phone changed you to milk after I bullies a small i i slam out of it

  138. Abu Chowdah

    In the case of islam, they are not allowed to have choice; not when the mullahs are in charge.

    Well, that’s wrong. Next.

  139. Abu Chowdah

    I repeat, it’s just wrong morally. It’s untrue in real life. And, it’s tactically really, really dumb.

    Bravo.

  140. nilk, Iron Bogan

    No, they’re not, sdfc. All christians can become bible-bashing God-botherers and turn violent and bomb abortion clinics, if you want to go that way.

    The only problem with the analogy is that there are no scriptural inducements to kill the apostate.

    The problem is what to do with the hardcore muslims in a way that we don’t worry about hardcore christians, or jews, or buddhists, or even satanists.

    Idiots like David Hicks, our very own Talitubby, find in islam a validation for their worst inclinations that they don’t in other religions. That is the issue. If you have a set of beliefs that tell you that you are your god’s best people, the main man of your belief set is the perfect man and is to be emulated, and by the way, people who don’t agree with you should just be ignored because if they won’t join you then you can do what you want to them. Enslave them, use them, make sure they feel humiliated, and kill them if need be. And then you live in a wider world that goes against all of that, tells you your rituals, your practices are worthless (while advertising how decadent the other world can be). Will you leave your rituals or would you double down and focus more on your beliefs?

    It’s often the second and third generations that become radicalised in the West, to the dismay of their parents. From Andy Choudary, to Mohammed Siddiq Khan, to the Skaf boys and the Pakistani ones also from Sydney.

    The parents know all about how oppressive undiluted islam can be, hence their moving here. It’s not perfect, but it’s a whole lot closer than plenty of other places.

  141. srr

    Lets see, christian, jew, christ, jesus, Islam, Muslims ….don’t you libertarians just love being automatically corrected by Islamic supporters you can’t see.

  142. srr

    …yes, I also typed Islam, Muslims and Islamic in lower case…

  143. C.L.

    And, it’s tactically really, really dumb.

    Are you saying Muslims might react to such assertions with violence?

  144. sdfc

    So you agree Nilk that the fundamentalists are a small minority and that there is such a thing as a moderate muslim?

    My keyboard automatically capitalises.

  145. C.L.

    fundamentalists are a small minority

    They control entire countries. Several of them. Don’t be absurd.

    How many countries are controlled by Christian fundamentalists?

  146. A Lurker

    Johanna, the day when the silent majority of moderate Muslims take to the streets in this country, and other western countries, and in their homelands, and shout out their horror and condemnation of all the atrocities done in their name by those wild-eyed fundamentalists that I spoke of earlier, and overthrow the mullahs and other leaders preaching hate and violence towards the West, is the day when I will believe the silent majority of moderate Muslims possess the decency of your friends.

    There has been condemnation in the past from a few leaders – but it has been slight, it has been mealy mouthed, as if the speakers do not really believe their own words, and are only saying the words to deceive us back into complacency. I have not seen any grassroots anger at the betrayal of their faith by the Islamists, so one can only assume that the anger, the horror, and the condemnation either does not exist within the majority – or the majority is so cowed by their religious leaders that they dare not speak out for fear of violent retribution.

    Islam is the only one capable of reforming itself – and to reform it must admit that a serious problem exists within itself. Right now Muslims aren’t able to see that problem – they state it’s all the fault of other people, never themselves (a flaw they share with the Left). The West will never be able to reform Islam, so the only option open is to defend ourselves, and defend ourselves we must because the world has become a very unsafe place because of those wild-eyed fundamentalists.

    We either defend ourselves, or we roll over and give up – I am sorry your friends are caught up in this, but until they, and people like them speak up publically and do something to reform Islam, then they have not earned our trust.

  147. nilk, Iron Bogan

    Sdfc if you want to phrase it like that, then yes you can have ‘moderate muslims.’ How many fundamentalists do you need to do some damage?

    And why don’t the moderates speak out against them? Where are the Waleed Alys and Keysar Trads to come out ranting against polygamy, wife beating and other undesirable islamic practices? They’re moderate, after all.

    And there’s always sudden jihad syndrome. Of course, in a lot of those cases the person in question had started going to mosque more often and was seen as becoming more religious.

  148. srr

    I’m on a windows, and typed everything in lower case and the phone’s auto correct leaves us in know doubt of what must be corrected and what can be degraded:

    Lets see, christian, jew, christ, jesus, Islam, Muslims ….don’t you libertarians just love being automatically corrected by Islamic supporters you can’t see.

  149. sdfc

    So they are all potential fundamentalists. And supporters of wife beating to boot.

  150. cohenite

    Yep, and you’re a Jew or not, simple as that. You’re a Christian or not, simple as that.

    Do you bigots ever listen to yourselves?

    Fuck off, I’m not a bigot. I’m sick of these arguments based on equivalence between Islam and other religions. No other religion is currently trying to replace Western values with sharia.

    As for these examples of just everyday folks who are incidentally Muslim; bullshit! Look at what happens to any Muslim who dissents from Islam. If prominent Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie criticise their religion they are immediately threatened with death. If formidable people like Rushdie and Ali are persecuted how can the average Muslim stand up and exercise a ‘moderate’ voice from within Islam?

    As example after example in Europe shows when the population of Muslims reaches a critical mass of about 5% then any pretence or ability, even if inclined, for those everyday Muslims to dissent and support the West against Islamic values becomes non-existent.

  151. johanna

    According to C.L.

    “Are you saying Muslims might react to such assertions with violence?”

    My assertions being that … oh, never mind, he didn’t say what they were, why should I?

    Look C.L., we all know that your method of fighting off Alz mental decline is getting into foodfights with people here.

    Just putting you on notice that I am not going to waste any perfectly good rotten tomatoes on you.

  152. cohenite

    Just putting you on notice that I am not going to waste any perfectly good rotten tomatoes on you.

    Right, off you toddle and pick out your burqa.

  153. C.L.

    And, it’s tactically really, really dumb.

    This means either 1) Muslims might react to such insults by killing people; or 2) Muslims might not act to prevent violence as zealously as, otherwise, they might have.

    Either way, it’s not great evidence for the moderate quiddity of Islam.

    Joanna, given that you showed up about five minutes ago in the blog’s history, may I suggest you avoid speaking on behalf of everyone else? It’s truly pathetic.

  154. Notafan

    It it no different to what was said about the Jews.

    It’s not about saying something out of sheer racism really is it? Its the observation of real behaviour and support of that behaviour whether tacit or overt.
    There are good people who are muslims. but it is the nature of islam that is the issue. It is a world view of the value of human life and human rights and freedoms that is anathema to me.
    This is a better explanation

  155. Fisky

    You have somehow read my mind, discovered hidden carefully crafted strategies and sniffed out latent racism through your magical screen and keyboard.

    I didn’t need to read your mind – you made your views quite clear as it is. “Tribes” are responsible for female genital mutilation, not reactionary religion. Could you please provide me with a list of “tribes” that fully condone this barbaric practice? I’m curious to know.

  156. Combine_Dave

    At least none of my offspring have been shanghaied to fight in its name, but whilst they are in power, anything is possible.

    Numbers how do you feel about ALP wanting to bring back conscription?

  157. 1735099

    Could you provide me with a list of “tribes” that fully condone the practice

    I could play silly buggers and refer you to to the USA where by 2010, sixteen states had outlawed the pracice, and conclude that all the citizens of the other states (which haven’t yet) fully condone it.
    That would be about as valid as your contention that the practice originated with Islam.
    If you’re really interested (and I doubt it – you’re simply into point scoring) read Mackie on the subject, as he is one of the most respected authorities.
    His thesis is that as far as can be ascertained, it has more to do with patriarchy than religion, and seems to have originated in Sub-Saharian Africa.

    Numbers How do you feel about the ALP wanting to bring back conscription?
    About as same as I feel about the Coalition wanting to introduce prohibition…….

  158. Eddystone

    Maybe Islam isn’t too bad, when you look under the surface!

    Don’t open this if you’re at work!

  159. John Comnenus

    Every hijab or burka represents a threat to our liberty because a man who can so casually oppress his loved ones (wife and daughter) is unlikely to care about oppressing someone he doesn’t know.

  160. Every hijab or burka represents a threat to our liberty
    When I was a kid I spent time being taught by Catholic nuns.
    Back then they wore black and white habits, not, in many respects, different from hijab.
    I guess using your line of reasoning, they must have been oppressed by Christ, as they regarded themselves as brides of Christ.
    Of course, back then, the evil-de-jour was Communism, not Islam.
    BTW, how many hijab or burka wearing women do you know?
    I’d assume it must be quite a few, given that you are so sure they’re oppressed.

  161. John Comnenus

    Numbers,
    I went to school in Auburn and lived about 300m from the Lakemba mosque. I have known plenty of Muslims. And none of them ever condemned terrorism, always some explanation or an other which is always Israel or Americas fault. To a person I have not met a Muslim who isn’t viciously anti Semitic.

  162. nilk, Iron Bogan

    So the pre-pubescent girls I see around my neighbourhood wearing hijab are just like the nuns who sometimes attend my church?

    Riiiight, got it, Numbers.

    What part of freedom of choice, religion or association allows for parents to cover little girls up? It’s one thing to dress modestly, another to insist that women are covered head to foot (sometimes including the face and hands) in order to ensure that they are suitably protected from the lustful eyes of men or the evil glances of the kuffar.

    In this case, you’re wrong. Nuns choose to wear the habit. They choose as adults and after years of formation.

    Not quite the same thing.

  163. John Comnenus

    Nuns volunteered, no comparison. BTW when they had that big post Cronulla riot at Lakemba, my most moderate Islamic neighbour went. When I asked them about firebombing and drive by shooting Churches in Auburn , their response was someone threatened to burn the Mosque. These are well educated and very well connected Muslims. The bloke is likely to be an ALP politician.

  164. cohenite

    The burka is a threat to Western society. Western society is predicated on being able to interact and deal openly and transparently, at face value, with other people. You simply cannot do that with people who have their faces covered.

    Left to their own choices why would a woman want to do that? The answer is that a normal woman would not; the burka is pathological.

    Numbers still persists with an equivalence between Islam and other current religions and compares nuns and burkas. This is nonsense. Nuns, often against great family and social pressure removed themselves from society. In Islam the burka is society. The difference is so fundamental as to be trite.

    As I said while communism, Japanese militarism, Nazism and Islam may all differ in various ways they were all totalitarian. Islam is going to have its day at great cost to humanity. One of the reasons it will have its day is attitudes like Number’s at a policy level.

  165. John Comnenus

    Well said Cohenite

  166. .

    France banned the Burqa.

    Are they more free?

  167. jupes

    France banned the Burqa.

    Yes but they don’t enforce it. Plenty of niqabs in Paris when I was there last year.

  168. As I said while communism, Japanese militarism, Nazism and Islam may all differ in various ways they were all totalitarian.
    The most totalitarian behavior of all is to tell someone else how to live their life.
    That is precisely what you are dong when you object to hidjab.

    their response was someone threatened to burn the Mosque.

    If somebody threatened to burn my parish church, I’d be out there defending it.

    What part of freedom of choice, religion or association allows for parents to cover little girls up?

    The Muslims I know don’t “cover up their little girls”. They begin this process around onset of puberty. The girls do have a choice, much in the same way as teenage Christian girls when it comes to whether or not they comply.
    Many don’t.

  169. cohenite

    The most totalitarian behavior of all is to tell someone else how to live their life.
    That is precisely what you are dong when you object to hidjab.

    I’m glad you raised this point which is a common default position for those promoting equivalence.

    Western democracy is predicated on personal freedom. To stop or attempt to stop someone expressing their freedom is an offense against that democratic principle. That is different from opposing those who want to stop people being free in a democracy which is what Islam seeks. Again the difference is so fundamental as to be trite.

    You really are a fool.

  170. Notafan

    Rather than refer to people as ‘moderate’ Muslims would it be better to think of them as ‘cultural’ Muslims or ‘non -practising’ Muslims or even cafeteria Muslims ? Devote Muslims would adhere all requirements of their faith, to dress codes, to not allow women to work outside the home, to perform daily prayers, to observe Ramadam, to undertake the Haj, to actively proletize, to seek seeing Sharia law implemented as well as all the other requirements of the Koran and hadiths.
    The fact that they self identify primarily as Muslims rather than Lebanese or Indians or Pakistanis or even Australians is somewhat telling is it not?

  171. candy

    Many don’t.

    Perhaps it’s different from city to city, suburb to suburb, but I live near a major mosque and have Muslim, neighbours and acquaintances and the girls all start to wear the hidjab at around the age of puberty as you say. But I can’t think of any that don’t. I thought it was compulsory, actually.

  172. nilk, Iron Bogan

    The Muslims I know don’t “cover up their little girls”. They begin this process around onset of puberty. The girls do have a choice, much in the same way as teenage Christian girls when it comes to whether or not they comply.

    Numbers that may be the case in where you live, but it’s not that way in every part of the country. Like where I live, and where friends of mine live on the other side of Melbourne.

    It is one thing for a woman or teenaged girl to choose to cover up, but how much freedom is there actually when you may face ostracism or worse if you don’t? As the population grows, so does the pressure to conform.

    Your friends are lucky if they don’t have to cover up, but not all muslim females are similarly placed.

  173. .

    Ostracism – bad luck.

    If people are forced to do anything against their will as adults or not in parental capacity, then a crime is being committed.

  174. That is different from opposing those who want to stop people being free in a democracy which is what Islam seeks.
    How do you know “what Islam seeks?”
    Suggest you cease reading the blogs posted by the haties and get to know a few Muslims.

    You really are a fool.
    Gratuitous abuse – totalitarian behavior – you don’t like my opinion so you abuse me.
    Practice what you preach.

  175. cohenite

    How do you know “what Islam seeks?”

    Because that is what they demand; sharia law. Muslims aren’t backward in coming forward about this:

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ship-out-sheik-ismail-al-wahwah-says-queensland-liberal-mp-steve-ciobo/story-e6freuy9-1226551484704

    There are many other examples; note the complaint by the boofhead Ciobo:

    A RADICAL sheik who has called for Australia to become an Islamic state ruled by sharia law should be “slapped down” by moderate Muslims, according to a federal MP.

    Even the Murdoch press doesn’t get this; calling for sharia law is not radical, it is moderate and normal.

    Survey after survey if Muslims show they want sharia and think the West is decadent; read the links here.

    Calling you a fool is an example of totalitarian behaviour; ok, what is it if I call you a fuckwit?

  176. what is it if I call you a fuckwit?

    Your link is useless – it’s a hate blog.
    If you’re fair dinkum you’d be linking to this kind of material, which does not have an axe to grind.

  177. Notafan

    The hijab issue is sometimes discussed on pickeringpost which is sometimes an interesting place to lurk. A young woman mentioned unless she was in a great hurry she preferred going to the Aldi further from her home rather than the closest one in the Lakemba area because of the constant verbal abuse from both Muslim men and women. This is also a problem for women in a number of European cities. Are there not religious police in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran ensuring dress codes are adhered too? Doesn’t sound like freedom to me.

  178. cohenite

    a hate blog

    The Climate Sceptics are just full of hate.

    The article links to several surveys such as:

    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2141291.Inside_Muslim_Minds

    At this link In 2008 professor Riaz Hassan published his research on being a Muslim in his book, Inside Muslim Minds. Riaz interviewed 6400 Muslims from 7 Muslim countries and found that nearly all of them agreed strongly with the proposition that Muslim societies must be based on the Koran and sharia law.

    http://www.ipsos-mori.com/newsevents/latestnews/810/How-much-does-religion-matter.aspx

    At this link 2011 the British research company, Ipsos MORI, interviewed Muslims in a number of countries and compared their response with the answers from members of other religions. They found Muslims were much more likely to think their faith important and to not want their faith separated from the legal and political system.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/stoning-adulterers/

    At this link the results found by Ipsos MORI were confirmed by Pew Research. Pew also found that large majorities of Muslims endorsed the harsh edicts of the Koran such as stoning for adultery, death for apostasy and amputations. Turkey and Lebanon and to a lesser extent Indonesia were the only Muslim nations which had a majority of citizens against these laws.

    Anyway, as I said before, all you have to do is look at each European democracy which has a population of Muslims greater than 5% to see what happens: no-go areas, attacks, strident demands for sharia.

    Job for you numbers is to find a moderate Muslim as defined in the essay from the hate site; that definition is:

    Is it [a moderate Muslim] one who will never engage in terrorist acts? That would make moderates an overwhelming majority of Muslims worldwide. Or is a moderate one who sincerely disapproves of those terrorist acts? That would reduce the number of moderates. Or is a moderate Muslim one who actively speaks out and works against the jihadists? That would lower the number yet again. Or finally, is a moderate Muslim one who actively engages the jihadists in a theological battle, trying to convince Muslims that jihad terrorism is wrong on Islamic grounds? That would leave us a tiny handful.

    In fact I can think of none except perhaps Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie . Even the little girl shot by the Taliban, the personification of Islam, does not disavow Islam.

    So, come up with a list of say 5 moderate Muslims as defined above.

    Hate site!? You really are a fucking idiot.

  179. nilk, Iron Bogan

    LOL, numbers, linking to Mo Abdalla is not helping you. He’s the fellow that went on QandA on April 1. And gave us such gems as this:

    MOHAMAD ABDALLA: Precisely. What we have to understand is that homosexuality is seen as a sin. It does not take a person out of the fold. So it doesn’t become out of the fold of Islam. It is like in Islamic tradition it is very much like alcoholism, if you like. And so people like this should not be seen as outside of the fold. Compassion should be showed toward them. But the culture we have – many Muslims have grown up in cultures that does not tolerate that behaviour. And so we have to have a compassionate approach. We have to approach them..

    .. to a deafening silence. I bet if the Archbishop had said something similar he would have been lynched before he could draw another breath.

  180. cohenite

    And numbers, do some research on Taqiyya and Kitman as well.

  181. blogstrop

    Numbers: anti conservative, anti American, anti capitalist, pro everything Left, pro Islam, here again polluting a thread.
    Open borders do not help, dear Sinclair.

  182. The Climate Sceptics are just full of hate.
    You’ve noticed this as well?

    Hassan -

    In 2001 he completed a 10 year multi-country study of Muslim religiosity in which he explored key aspects of Islamic consciousness. In his findings from this study Hassan argues that the genesis of modern Islamism is located in the historical, social, political and material conditions of Muslim countries and the imperialistic policies of Western nations.

    In other words, Islamophobia and militant Islam are both reactionary. I wouldn’t argue with him about that.

    They found Muslims were much more likely to think their faith important and to not want their faith separated from the legal and political system.

    Survey me – I feel much the same about my Catholic faith.

    At this link the results found by Ipsos MORI were confirmed by Pew Research. Pew also found that large majorities of Muslims endorsed the harsh edicts of the Koran such as stoning for adultery, death for apostasy and amputations. Turkey and Lebanon and to a lesser extent Indonesia were the only Muslim nations which had a majority of citizens against these laws.

    You could survey the inhabitants of a whole range of countries and find opinions vastly different from those held here. I don’t feel threatened by that, and more than I feel threatened by the wacky opinions held by many fundamentalists in the USA – you know the ones who believe that the earth was created in seven days and that the second coming is nigh.

    This is meaningless and irrelevant to me, a citizen of Queensland, Australia. Refer to the research I linked to (conducted by Griffith University) to find something relevant.

    Job for you numbers is to find a moderate Muslim.

    A “job”? I have a job, and you can be sure I don’t need the likes of you to give me one.
    I know quite a few (moderate Muslims) . They are gentle hard working people. I judge people as I find them. I make up my own mind, and am not influenced by extremists who post hate.

    Hate site!? You really are a fucking idiot.

    More totalitarian abuse.

    many Muslims have grown up in cultures that does not tolerate that behaviour. And so we have to have a compassionate approach.

    And many haven’t – hence my reference to the local scene, which, as an Australian, is what is relevant to me.

  183. cohenite

    In other words, Islamophobia and militant Islam are both reactionary. I wouldn’t argue with him about that.

    That’s completely wrong; Islam is hegemonic. It seeks to expand and dominate; the notion of the world wide Caliphate is not imaginary and galvanises Muslims both violent and non-violent, which is the only distinction in Islam.

    Walid Phares I think sums up Islam best when he defines Islam as the natural successor to the previous totalitarian regimes of communism and Nazism and the like. Huntington was correct although the terminology may be loose. Islam vs secular democracy, and only a cretin would deny the antipathy, indeed chasm between those 2 sets of values, is not so much a clash of civilisations but a clash between the religious impulse and the society it wants and defines and the secular society.

    Given the ideological differences between these positions it is disingenuous and a stupid distraction to describe Islam’s aggression as reactionary in the sense that it is the West’s fault for initiating Islam’s violence.

    In fact the very existence of Western secular society is a perpetual insult to the Islamic set of values because secular individuality contradicts the divine source of Islamic values. There is no compromise there despite other religions, especially Catholicism, being domesticated and made subservient to the secular structure, largely as a result of its own monstrous failings becoming apparent.

    There is no such systemic analysis of Islam and its monstrosities being done now in the West. The elites in the West are mired in political correctness and loathing of their own secular society which reduces to regarding Islam as a victim of Western imperialism, which in turn is an oxymoron; the freedoms offered by secular democracy cannot be forced on anyone. As I tried to explain to numbers earlier, you cannot impose freedoms; all you can do is oppose those who would remove those freedoms.

    No doubt numbers regards himself as an elite but at base all he has to go on is some personal anecdotes about the Muslims he knows being gentle people.

    No doubt there are gentle Muslims but it is apparent which side of the ledger they will fall on when push comes to shove. No doubt about numbers either.

  184. 1735099

    when push comes to shove

    Reminds me eerily of what I used to hear in the fifties and sixties.
    It varied from “Better to fight them there than here”.
    To “what would you do if a Commie was raping your sister”.
    Or “They want to take us over, you know”.
    As well as “The Chinks are coming down”.

    Back then, there were probably more Xenophobes per square kilometre than there are now, and Pig Iron Bob and his fellow travellers made the most of it. It kept them in power for decades, and the debacle that was Vietnam was just one of the sad outcomes.

    Fortunately, we’ve grown up considerably as a nation since that time, although the Xenophobic impulse is still powerful. These days, the only way it drew traction was through the demonization of asylum seekers, and bipartisan brutality resulted. There’s always collateral damage.

    Islamophobia is cut from the same cloth.

  185. Gab

    I thought it was compulsory, actually.

    It isn’t but they get the shit kicked out them if they don’t cover up.

  186. nilk, Iron Bogan

    It varied from “Better to fight them there than here”.

    Hello, numbers? Syria calling.

    AUSTRALIAN fighters who are joining terrorist groups in Syria will be radicalised much faster than they would be in other conflicts, posing a greater threat when they return home, according to one of the world’s leading experts on Islamic terrorism.

    The claims came as the government yesterday repeated its warning to Australians not to travel to Syria to fight following the revelation in The Australian yesterday that Australians in Syria are being recruited by one of the world’s deadliest terrorist groups, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

    Attorney-General George Brandis last month listed ISIL as a terrorist organisation on the advice of ASIO, which has received disturbing intelligence in recent months about Australians joining the group, which is notorious for summary executions and suicide bombings against civilians.

    Matthew Levitt, director of counter-terrorism and intelligence at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, told The Australian yesterday that groups such as the ISIL in Syria offered a dangerously fast path to radicalisation to young Western fighters.

    “The radicalisation process for Westerners going to fight in Syria is much quicker than it had been for other foreign jihadi battlefields,” Dr Levitt said. “Many Sunnis see fighting in Syria as a distinctly defensive endeavour, not an effort to fight the West but to defend fellow Sunnis against a tyrannical and bloodthirsty dictator in Bashar al-Assad.

    “That these Westerners more often than not end up fighting with Jabhat al-Nusra or ISIL means these Western foreign fighters return home not only battle-hardened but also more radicalised than when they’d departed for Syria.”

    ASIO is believed to have called for the listing of ISIL, formerly known and listed as al-Qa’ida in Iraq, to make it easier under the Criminal Code to convict Australians who are found to have fought for the group.

    Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said yesterday that officials and agencies were keeping “a very close eye” on Australians who had travelled to Syria. “We want to ensure that anybody who’s going to Syria is going for humanitarian reasons, and not to join fighting forces,” she said.

    Opposition Treasury spokesman Chris Bowen said Labor would offer its full support for measures to crack down on Australians who seek to travel to Syria to take up arms.

    NSW police Deputy Commissioner Nick Kaldos said yesterday his force was planning long-term strategies to ease tensions within NSW’s Syrian community arising from the conflict.

    NSW police have stepped up their engagement with the pro-Assad and anti-Assad groups inside Australia after several incidents in Sydney early last year, including a firebombing, a bashing and a shooting.

    Mr Kaldos said pain from the conflict would be felt in Australia’s Syrian community for many years and NSW police were planning for long-term engagement with Syrian Australians to prevent a small minority of “hotheads” from using the war as a pretext to cause trouble.

    At least 100 Australians are estimated to be fighting with extremists in Syria, but a growing proportion of these are moving from the al-Qa’ida affiliate al-Nusra to ISIL. These two groups are the most extreme of the anti-Assad forces and intelligence agencies in Canberra are concerned about their growing ability to recruit Australian fighters.

  187. cohenite

    Islamophobia is cut from the same cloth.

    Islamophobia is a construct of the UN which began in 2004 when Annan convened a special UN seminar on an emerging form of bigotry against Muslims.

    This is junk, akin to saying those critical of communism are commiephobes. It has been readily adopted by Islam however to respond to any semblance of disquiet about the appalling behaviour of Muslims world-wide; it is also a prophylactic against any critique of Islam and indeed the role and relevance of theology in a modern Western secular society.

    Islamophobia is a convenient tool for jihadists of both the violent and peaceful variety to exempt themselves from criticism. That the term should also be used by Western elites [I use this term ironically and have to spell this out since numbers is immune to irony] shows the cowardice and capitulation of those elites to the bullying by Islam.

    For instance in France where the despicable burka was banned there are now moves afoot to introduce Islamic values across French institutions.

    This capitulation is based on fear no doubt; even Monty Python admit to being afraid of Islam.

    To be afraid takes some intelligence however; which is why numbers is unafraid of his Muslim brothers; either that or he has converted.

  188. Gab

    Advertise you’re going to burn a few Bibles – nothing happens.

    Advertise you’re going to burn a few Korans – you’ll either get arrested or be hunted down by the Religion of Peace That No One Can Ever Leave followers.

  189. .

    Don’t bring up Communists.

    They were a real threat.

    Was the Cuban Missile Crisis just somehting FOX NEWS put up for a laugh?

  190. 1735099

    bullying by Islam

    Now I’ve been around a while, and as an ex-student of a Catholic boarding school, I’ve seen a bit of bullying.
    Also, as a teacher, I’ve done my best to eliminate it where I’ve seen it.
    But you know, in all that time, I don’t recall encountering any “bullying by Islam”.
    I must have lived a charmed life, seeing how it’s such a problem and all……..

  191. 1735099

    Was the Cuban Missile Crisis just something FOX NEWS Put up for a laugh

    Given that Fox News (forgive me for not shouting – it is a very shouty network) was around in 1962, I sincerely doubt it.
    This comment, is however revealing of the world view of someone who is totally incapable of imagining a world different from the one he knows before megaphone journalism, and can digest only the simple surface elements of any situation.

    You really need to get some time up – or at least to try to grasp the fact that the world you know is not the world that has always existed.

  192. .

    This comment, is however revealing of the world view of someone who is totally incapable of imagining a world different from the one he knows before megaphone journalism, and can digest only the simple surface elements of any situation.

    I know what dark ages journalism to champ, and I remember the SMH before it turned feral.

    Communism was a threat. You just dismissed the Cuban Missile Crisis as a non issue. You are in denial.

  193. Rabz

    Six uses of the personal pronoun in a short, totally incoherent screed spewed forth by our not beloved colostomy bag clad, morbidly obese, staggeringly stupid, syphilis addled drooling spudpeeling cretin.

    Listen, you monumental, blundering cockhead, they’ll come for and annihilate soft, aged marxist scum like you, first.

    You aren’t known as ‘useless idiots’ for nothing.

    Your long overdue eradication from the face of this planet is actually an eventuality worth looking forward to.

  194. .

    “is too,”

    For those who thought I had a Max Headroom like tick tick tick

  195. Tel

    Johanna, the day when the silent majority of moderate Muslims take to the streets in this country, and other western countries, and in their homelands, and shout out their horror and condemnation of all the atrocities done in their name by those wild-eyed fundamentalists that I spoke of earlier, and overthrow the mullahs and other leaders preaching hate and violence towards the West, is the day when I will believe the silent majority of moderate Muslims possess the decency of your friends.

    That’s pretty much what happened in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood and their Sharia agenda are not well appreciated around Egypt right now. Mind you, it wasn’t a unanimous decision by any means, so hope for the best I suppose.

  196. Rabz

    Geert Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Salman Rushdie (must die) and Theo van Gogh would also agree that there is absolutely no bullying of peoples by mouth frothing, utterly insane, illiterate, innumerate, ahistorical, Jew hating adherents of the medieval seventh century arab death cult.

    Oh wait, they murdered van Gogh. In broad daylight, in a major western city, only several years ago.

  197. Rabz

    No bullying when these now legendary cartoons were published several years ago, either.

    Oh wait …

  198. 1735099

    This soldier probably best explains the issue contested here.
    - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnnwBK_B-WI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    I’m guessing much the same would occur in Australia, although the discourse would likely be shorter and more direct.

  199. srr

    Oh wait, they murdered van Gogh. In broad daylight, in a major western city, only several years ago.

    And their traitorous Western, Jew hating, Christian cursing, Tools of Propaganda, have been spreading images of his slaughtered body, all over the world wide web, ever since…but that’s not bullying, or threatening, or TERRORISING…according to lie loving slaughters of innocent people everywhere…you know, the only people allowed to enforce their opinions.

  200. 1735099

    Tread carefully a few posts up.
    Somedody’s deposited a large dollop of bile all over the thread………

  201. srr

    …slaughterers…bloody lying bloody slaughterers…

  202. Rabz

    Note peoples – there is only one stinking cretinous arsehole on this thread currently defending those mouth frothing, utterly insane, illiterate, innumerate, ahistorical, Jew hating adherents of the medieval seventh century arab death cult.

    What an embarrassing, lobotomised fucktard that idiot is.

  203. cohenite

    Very good numbers; the elites always claim the high moral ground. The soldier is great but the issue is reciprocation. That is, if the roles were reversed would Islam be as tolerant. We know the answer to that at even the most basic shopping level.

    The point of your video is that Western society is superior to Islamic society for the very reason you claim the soldier as being on your side. He is not. He is on the side of Western democracy’s side.

  204. Rabz

    cohenite, as if the spudpeeler is going to be able to comprehend your comment.

    Aged, diseased western commies like him hate the west so much that they can’t prostrate themselves quickly enough before that utterly insane, Jew hating medieval seventh century arab death cult.

    Syphilis has spent this entire thread vociferously proving that point – and the fact that he’s a colostomy bag clad, morbidly obese, staggeringly stupid, syphilis addled drooling spudpeeling cretin.

    But then, admittedly, we did know that already.

  205. 1735099

    he is on the side of Western democracy

    Thank you for so elegantly clarifying my point.
    Australia is a Western democracy.
    Tolerance and the courage to call hate when you see it are both strong Australian values.
    Bigotry and abusive stereotyping are not.
    Contrast the bile posted by a few above, and the measured and principled response exhibited by the soldier.
    Says it all, really………

  206. Rabz

    Says it all, really…

    Actions speak louder than words, you loathsome, sanctimonious c*nt.

  207. srr

    Please numbers, specify exactly what above, you class as bile.

    I’m guessing you mean cartoons of Mohammed, and not defending those who defend those who mutilate their baby daughters’ genitals for the purpose of selling them to old men to painfully breed with, or die trying to simply live, conceive and give birth.

  208. srr

    FRIENDS OF YOURS?

    Female circumcision case falls through

    ALEISHA ORR July 04, 2013

    Prosecutors in Perth have reportedly dropped charges against a northern suburbs couple who had been accused of organising a genital mutilation procedure for their baby daughter.

    The couple’s identities had been suppressed throughout the couple’s appearances in court.

    It is understood that the prosecutors dropped the charges on the grounds that there was not a reasonable prospect of conviction.

    The Perth mother and father were alleged to have organised the illegal circumcision of their baby girl in Bali.

    The 44-year-old father and 42-year-old mother had been accused of taking their daughter to Perth Airport in August 2012 with the intention of taking the girl to overseas for the procedure.

    Female circumcision is performed in some cultures and religions, but is illegal in Australia.

    It is also illegal to perform, arrange or take a child out of the state for such a procedure.

  209. 1735099

    What the rabid one has posted is a snapshot of the results of extremism, something that he routinely and consistently exhibits through his abusive rants.
    It doesn’t matter whether you shout “Allah Akbar” or post
    your long overdue eradication from the face of this planet is actually an evantuality worth looking forward to
    the loathing and anger is the same kind of evil, and the outcome is always tragic.
    The problem is hate driven extremism, and it matters little what “-ism ” label is applied.
    Violence is never the answer – it begats more violence.
    You really have to make allowances for Rabz – he/she/it appears to lack a cerebral cortex.

  210. 1735099

    FRIENDS OfF YOURS
    1735099
    #129347, posted on December 31 at 3.31 pm

    For the record, female genital mutilation is abhorrent

    Two pieces of advice -
    1. Don’t shout
    2. Check upthread before you post

  211. cohenite

    Your position [sic] is confused numbers. We agree Western secular democracy is a superior form of society yet you persist in giving equivalence to Islam which has inferior values and seeks to overthrow the Western values which host it.

    How do you reconcile this? Are you twins?

  212. Rabz

    spudpeeler, you lobotomised, marxist sack of shit (BIRM).

    The problem is hate driven extremism

    As practiced by the death cult adhering arseholes who will happily wipe you off the face of this earth, you moron.

    As much as I utterly despise you, I couldn’t be bothered even attempting to have the misfortune of engineering an encounter with you in person.

    You are a staggeringly stupid hypocrite (BIRM).

    You make excuses for an utterly vile, seventh century, racist misogynist death cult, while having the gall to criticise other people who wouldn’t be arsed giving you the time of day in person.

    You’re such a disgusting hypocritical shithead that you even had the fucking unmitigated gall to try and imply that I was somehow worse than the morons who believe in that aforementioned cult.

    You’ll get yours – and the beauty of it is, it won’t be from me, even though you’ve provided me enough reasons to seek you out and bring your utterly pointless, pathetic existence to a long overdue end, you c*nt.

  213. Rabz

    NaTD.

    He’s so pathetic, he’ll be cactus soon enough.

  214. srr

    Genital mutilation guidelines to help treat victims

    MELISSA DAVEY November 24, 2012

    Unsure of procedures … doctors dealing with genital mutilation. Photo: Louie Douvis

    THOUSANDS of victims of genital mutilation live in NSW and experts say doctors are untrained in how to treat them, with many suffering from childbirth complications as a result of their condition.

    With an increased intake of refugees from countries in Africa, the Middle East and south-east Asia, more women with genital mutilation are living in Australia, with most in NSW. It has prompted the state Health Department to develop the first guidelines for clinicians treating women affected by the barbaric procedure, which involves partial or total removal of the genitalia.

    An obstetrician specialising in the care of women with genital mutilation, Greg Jenkins, said it was often not identified by doctors until women were admitted to hospital in labour.

    ”That’s really too late and it needs to be recognised earlier in their pregnancy so the opportunity for counselling and management is there,” Dr Jenkins said. ”The difficulty is, in the country where they come from, genital mutilation is common so midwives there assume women have had it done and know what to do.”

    Dr Jenkins works at Auburn Hospital, the only hospital with dedicated guidelines on how to care for mutilation victims. His program requires at least one senior midwife experienced in female genital mutilation and childbirth to be on hand at every shift. Women are assigned a midwife who they see exclusively throughout their pregnancy, with an interpreter available for those with little English.

    ”What prompted our guidelines was a 16-year-old girl who came into hospital in labour in 1993,” Dr Jenkins said.

    ”She had quite a severe form of genital mutilation and the staff, who had never seen a case before, didn’t know how to deal with it. She ended up with a nasty tear, and when the operating theatre consultant came in they didn’t know what to do about it. We didn’t want to be in that situation ever again.”

    Dr Jenkins said he had not been consulted about the development of the clinical guidelines but said he supported anything that would help improve treatment. While they will not be mandatory, a NSW Health spokeswoman said hospitals would require ”very sound reasons” for not implementing them.

    Without specialised care, women with genital mutilation are at higher risk of birth complications, including foetal distress, hemorrhage and tearing.

    One woman, who did not want to be identified, said hospital staff were uncertain of what to do when she was in labour with her second child and they saw her vagina had been almost closed through mutilation.

    ”[So] they cut [me],” she said.

    ”But they didn’t stitch the incision. After [I went home], I felt some of my genital tissue was sticking out and that the area was still opened wide.”

    She went to see a doctor, who did nothing. ”So I lived with that condition until I had my third child,” she said.

    ”The baby was big and during that labour the incision was enlarged more and I had complications. I was bleeding for 15 minutes and the midwife was anxious; she didn’t realise what was happening to me.”

    The draft guidelines will be released next month, when they will be considered by Local Health Districts before being implemented in early to mid-2013.

    Do you know more? [email protected]

    THOUSANDS suffering mutilation in NSW alone, but go on numbers (and all you, who like your Islamist friends, refuse to openly campaign to gaol all who practice this terrorism), tell us again how cartoons are bile…..we really, really do need a word much stronger than, ‘EVIL’!

  215. Your position [sic] is confused numbers. We agree Western secular democracy is a superior form of society yet you persist in giving equivalence to Islam which has inferior values and seeks to overthrow the Western values which host it.

    How do you reconcile this? Are you twins?

    Refer upthread to my comments about extremists and dissonance. It applies.

    I’m not making judgements about Islam, except those driven by studying the religion as part of an Asian studies component of a degree taken during a rehab fellowship post Vietnam, and my personal contact with Muslims since then in Brisbane, Townsville, Mt Isa, and most recently, in Toowoomba.
    Everything I learned through study about Islam (in 1972/73) before it became the evil-de-jour post 9/11 was reinforced by these personal encounters.
    Most of the scuttlebutt that appears on hate blogs about Islam is pure fiction. Back in 1973/72, it simply did not figure in the academic study, which is a pretty fair indication that it is rank nonsense. When I bring it up with my moderate Muslim friends they fall about laughing. Most of it is reaction to 9/11.

    None of this experience with real live Muslims has been negative. I make up my own mind based on what I know and what I have experienced. I have an advantage over many of you in that I have lived many different lives in many different places and experienced many different cultures.

    This has taught me, amongst other things, not to have the arrogance to declare my my way of life “superior” to anyone else’s.

    My position is far from confused.
    I’ll sum it up for you.
    Islam is probably great if you’re a Muslim. I’m not, so I’m not judging. It is different – “equivalence” doesn’t come into it. I’m not into comparisons.
    Islam has not yet “overthrown” any western government, and few would argue that the likelihood of that happening is looming.
    There have been many atrocities committed in the name of Islam, just as there have been in the name of democracy. I had first hand experience of that 40 years ago, although I’ll hasten to add that these were not carried out by Australians.
    I abhor bigotry and bullying behavior towards minority groups. I’ve done this all my life, and will continue to do so.
    I continue to be gobsmacked by the violent and intemperate language, the half truths and the bile laden rants directed against Muslims, especially on line. I guess there is so much of it on line because, underneath it all, those who use it are cowards and bullies, and the internet gives them cover.

  216. Gab

    Perhaps you are better off at your own blog if this place appalls you so much, Mr Hypocrite.

  217. cohenite

    Most of the scuttlebutt that appears on hate blogs about Islam is pure fiction.

    Examples please; otherwise get fucked.

    There have been many atrocities committed in the name of Islam, just as there have been in the name of democracy.

    Examples please etc.

  218. C.L.

    Islam is a false religion, its adherents heathens.

    That’s all you need to know.

  219. John Comnenus

    Numbers,
    All around the Islamic world Muslims are killing Christians and other infidels. This is an objective and empirically proven fact. The reason for this persecution is because of the direction to do so in the Koran. Surely you read the Koran in your studies and surely you noticed a form of standing order for all Muslims to kill any infidel (esp in Ch 9). There is nothing remotely similar in Christianity.

  220. srr

    No numbers, the cold, calculated bombings, mutilations and beheadings, are done In The Name of Mohammed’s god, Allah.

    Islam is the word used to divert blame from Mohammed and his god Allah.

    It’s what cowardly demonic liars do; wildly point at unicorns so they aren’t noticed setting bombs.

  221. nilk, Iron Bogan

    Islam is probably great if you’re a Muslim. I’m not, so I’m not judging.

    Tell that to Fusilier Lee Rigby’s family. I’m sure they’d be okay with you not judging.

  222. cohenite

    My position is far from confused.

    Not only is it confused it’s fucked.

    You’re defending an ideology which would subjugate your daughters, wive[s] and any other females lying around.

    Let’s talk about Islamic economies; take away oil and you have camels and olives left.

    Contribution of Islam to human development, zilch. Yet you blithely dismiss concerns about it.

    Read the End of Faith by Sam Harris, or at least staple it to your head.

  223. Gab

    Islamic sharia courts in Britain are now ‘legally binding’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1055764/Islamic-sharia-courts-Britain-legally-binding.html#ixzz2p89Ncg4a

    Love the pic of the child in the freedom sack.

  224. jupes

    Violence is never the answer – it begats more violence.

    Yes, far better to leave people in death camps rather than liberate them, and far better to welcome invading armies with open arms rather than oppose them, and far better to try talk terrorists out of killing your kids rather than killing the terrorists first, and far better to allow Iran to develop a nuclear device and take your chances they won’t attack the Zionist Entity rather than conduct a pre-emptive strike.

    You are the stupidest person on this blog Numbers.

  225. John Comnenus

    Thanks Gab,
    Right at the end of your link, 33% of UK Muslims want a world wide Sharia based Government and 40% want the UK to be ruled by Sharia.

    The idiocy of importing this violent supremacist ideology is obvious to all but the most wilfully blind.

  226. Examples please; otherwise get fucked.

    Here’s a few for starters. Sorry it’s lengthy, but you asked. Let me know if you need more.

    Islam is a widely-misunderstood religion. Those who are unfamiliar with the faith often have misunderstandings about its teachings and practices. Common misconceptions include that Muslims worship a moon-god, that Islam is oppressive against women, or that Islam is a faith that promotes violence. Here we bust these myths and expose the true teachings of Islam.
    1. Muslims worship a moon-god
    Some non-Muslims mistakenly believe that Allah is an “Arab god,” a “moon god,” or some sort of idol. Allah is the proper name of the One True God, in the Arabic language. The most fundamental belief that a Muslim has is that “There is only One God,” the Creator, the Sustainer — known in the Arabic language and by Muslims as Allah. Arabic-speaking Christians use the same word for the Almighty.

    2. Muslims don’t believe in Jesus
    In the Qur’an, stories about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ (called ‘Isa in Arabic) are abundant. The Qur’an recalls his miraculous birth, his teachings, and the miracles he performed by God’s permission. There is even a chapter of the Qur’an named after his mother, Mary (Miriam in Arabic). However, Muslims believe that Jesus was a fully human prophet and not in any way divine himself.

    3. Most Muslims are Arabs
    While Islam is often associated with Arabs, they make up only 15% of the world’s Muslim population. The country with the largest population of Muslims is Indonesia. Muslims make up 1/5 of the world’s population, with large numbers found in Asia (69%), Africa (27%), Europe (3%) and other parts of the world.

    4. Islam oppresses women
    Most of the ill-treatment that women receive in the Muslim world is based on local culture and traditions, without any basis in the faith of Islam. In fact, practices such as forced marriage, spousal abuse, and restricted movement directly contradict Islamic law governing family behavior and personal freedom.

    5. Muslims are violent, terrorist extremists
    Terrorism cannot be justified under any valid interpretation of the Islamic faith. The entire Qur’an, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people. The overwhelming message is that peace is to be found through faith in God, and justice among fellow human beings. Muslim leaders and scholars do speak out against terrorism in all its forms, and offer explanations of misinterpreted or twisted teachings.

    6. Islam is intolerant of other faiths
    Throughout the Qur’an, Muslims are reminded that they are not the only ones who worship God. Jews and Christians are called “People of the Book,” meaning people who have received previous revelations from the One Almighty God that we all worship. The Qur’an also commands Muslims to protect from harm not only mosques, but also monasteries, synagogues, and churches — because “God is worshipped therein.”

    7. Islam promotes “jihad” to spread Islam by the sword and kill all unbelievers
    The word Jihad stems from an Arabic word which means “to strive.” Other related words include “effort,” “labor,” and “fatigue.” Essentially Jihad is an effort to practice religion in the face of oppression and persecution. The effort may come in fighting the evil in your own heart, or in standing up to a dictator. Military effort is included as an option, but as a last resort and not “to spread Islam by the sword.”

    8. The Quran was written by Muhammad and copied from Christian and Jewish sources
    The Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad over a period of two decades, calling people to worship One Almighty God and to live their lives according to this faith. The Qur’an contains stories of Biblical prophets, because these prophets also preached the message of God. Stories are not merely copied, but the oral traditions are referred to in a way that focuses on the examples and teachings that we can learn from them.

    9. Islamic prayer is just a ritualized performance with no heartfelt meaning
    Prayer is a time to stand before God and express faith, give thanks for blessings, and seek guidance and forgiveness. During Islamic prayer, one is modest, submissive and respectful to God. By bowing and prostrating ourselves to the ground, we express our utmost humility before the Almighty.

    10. The crescent moon is a universal symbol of Islam
    The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad, Islamic caravans and armies flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years, and wasn’t affiliated with Islam at all until the Ottoman Empire placed it on their flag.

  227. jupes

    33% of UK Muslims want a world wide Sharia based Government and 40% want the UK to be ruled by Sharia.

    Yeah but they are moderate Muslims who only want a moderate Sharia Law.

    Following the example of the Religion of Peace’s Prophet, I’m sure they would be kind enough to allow a young mother to finish suckling her baby before they stoned her to death for adultery.

  228. Abu Chowdah

    Islam is a false religion, its adherents heathens.

    That describes all religion.

    Basically, you’re all deluded.

  229. calli

    Love the pic of the child in the freedom sack.

    And aren’t the mother’s eyes some of the saddest you’ve ever seen? So Britain has thrown in the towel and given up. Makes all those WWII ‘British Bulldog’ movies seem rather silly, doesn’t it?

    Interesting from that article though:

    A recent survey by the Centre for Social Cohesion found 40 per cent of Britain’s Muslim students want the introduction of sharia law in the UK, while 33 per cent want a worldwide Islamic sharia-based government.

    So 60% of Muslims surveyed don’t want it. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of that 60% were women.

  230. There have been many atrocities committed in the name of Islam, just as there have been in the name of democracy.

    Again, lengthy, just to oblige. These are actually in the name of Christianity, but you get the drift –

    Ancient Pagans

    As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
    Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
    Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
    Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as “temple destroyer.” [DA468]
    Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
    Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
    According to Christian chroniclers he “followed meticulously all Christian teachings…”
    In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
    In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
    The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
    [DO19-25]

    Mission

    Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
    Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
    Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
    15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
    16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops “pacified and civilized” Ireland, where only Gaelic “wild Irish”, “unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing.” One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that “the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies… and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie”, which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused “greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde”.
    Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

    Crusades (1095-1291)

    First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
    Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
    9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
    Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
    after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
    Here the Christians “did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents—save that they ran their lances through their bellies,” according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
    Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine “the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians” said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
    Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
    (In the words of one witness: “there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes”, and after that “happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour’s tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude”)
    The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: “It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished.” [TG79]
    Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that “even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition”. One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
    Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered “in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ”. [WW45]
    Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
    Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]

    Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

    Heretics

    Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
    Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
    Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
    The Albigensians…viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
    Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
    Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
    subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
    After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
    Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
    Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
    Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
    John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
    University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
    Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

    Witches

    from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
    in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
    incomplete list of documented cases:
    The Burning of Witches – A Chronicle of the Burning Times

    Religious Wars

    15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
    1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
    1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
    1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
    17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, “cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals… and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left … to the gallows of Montfaulcon, ‘to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows’.” [SH191]
    17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. “In a single church fifty women were found beheaded,” reported poet Friedrich Schiller, “and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers.” [SH191]
    17th century 30 years’ war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

    Jews

    Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
    In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
    17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
    The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities’ Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
    First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
    Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
    Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
    Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
    1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
    1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
    1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
    1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
    1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
    1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
    1391 Seville’s Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored “badges of shame” that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
    1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
    1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

    (I feel sick …) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.

    Native Peoples

    Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
    Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, “ought to be good servants … [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion.” [SH200]
    While Columbus described the Indians as “idolators” and “slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order,” his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as “beasts” because “they eat when they are hungry,” and made love “openly whenever they feel like it.” [SH204-205]
    On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, “making the declarations that are required” – the requerimiento – to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And “nobody objected.” If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

    I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you … and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church … and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him.” [SH66]

    Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: “justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England … to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, … and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ.” [SH235]
    In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of “the marvelous goodness and providence of God” to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as “for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess.” [SH109,238]
    On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
    The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
    As one of the culprits wrote: “So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous.” [SH69]
    The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As “they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell.” [SH70]
    What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
    “The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties … They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles… then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive.” [SH72]
    Or, on another occasion:
    “The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts…Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs.” [SH83]
    The “island’s population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus’s arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out.” Eventually all the island’s natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were “forced” to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus “the Caribbean’s millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century”. [SH72-73] “In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated.” [SH75]
    “And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next.” [SH75]
    Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
    “When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead.” [SH95]

    Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

    Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: “Their Warres are farre less bloudy…”, so that there usually was “no great slawter of nether side”. Indeed, “they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men.” What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
    In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown – “being idell … did runne away unto the Indyans,” – to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
    “Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: ‘Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe’.” [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: “This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia” methods were different: “when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community” down. [SH105]
    On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the “Peqout War”. The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
    When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief’s pledge they attacked.
    Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
    The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: “And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished … God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven … Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies”: men, women, children. [SH113-114]
    So “the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance”. [SH111].
    Because of his readers’ assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
    “Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them…” (Deut 20)
    Mason’s comrade Underhill recalled how “great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers” yet reassured his readers that “sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents”. [SH114]
    Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists’ own words: “blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them.” (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
    In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
    The surviving handful of Indians “were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for ‘a share’ of the captives, specifically ‘a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good’.” [SH115]
    Other tribes were to follow the same path.
    Comment the Christian exterminators: “God’s Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!”
    “Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!” [TA]
    Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. “Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians ‘grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie’, advised the Council of State in Virginia, ‘we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne’.” [SH106]
    In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
    In a single massacre in “King Philip’s War” of 1675 and 1676 some “600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a ‘barbeque’.” [SH115]
    To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive – a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 – 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 – 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive – 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
    All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
    A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
    In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.

    More Glorious events in US history

    Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England’s most esteemed religious leaders, in “1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs ‘to hunt Indians as they do bears’.” [SH241]
    Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church (“I long to be wading in gore”) had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs’ waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
    From an eye-witness account: “There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed …” [SH131]
    More gory details.
    By the 1860s, “in Hawai’i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands’ native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to ‘the amputation of diseased members of the body’.” [SH244]

    20th Century Church Atrocities

    Catholic extermination camps
    Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

    In these camps – the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar – orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi “Sicherheitsdient der SS”, watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
    Catholic terror in Vietnam
    In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters – the Viet Minh – had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican’s spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam “Soldiers of Christ”, a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

    Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

    The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
    “Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp.”

    Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in “detention camps.” Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers – male and female – and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded – mostly in street riots – 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].

    To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI’s lost their life….

    Rwanda Massacres
    In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.

    For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.

    Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany – a station not at all critical to Christianity – the following was stated:

    “Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda’s capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees – women, children, old – being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.

    According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.

    In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive…” [S2]

  231. Rabz

    Basically, you’re all deluded.

    I’m an agnostic, pal.

  232. Gab

    These are actually in the name of Christianity,

    Numbers given you’re allegedly a Catholic perhaps it’s time you changed religions and converted to Islam, I mean if you don’t like it you can always leave Islam, right?

  233. Abu Chowdah

    Interesting stuff, numbers. These religions are all pretty nasty, I fear.

  234. Abu Chowdah

    I’m an agnostic, pal.

    So, a secret believer.

  235. Rabz

    Enough – all this dissent appears to driven the spudpeeler stark raving bonkers.

    FFS, could the moderators here, if there are any, please bring his insanity to a long overdue end.

  236. Gab

    Oh good, it’s the other upholder of the freedom sack coming to the rescue.

  237. nilk, Iron Bogan

    2. Muslims don’t believe in Jesus

    They don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus, and see christians as polytheists. Jesus is merely a prophet to them and he wasn’t crucified.

    8. The Quran was written by Muhammad and copied from Christian and Jewish sources
    The Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad over a period of two decades, calling people to worship One Almighty God and to live their lives according to this faith. The Qur’an contains stories of Biblical prophets, because these prophets also preached the message of God. Stories are not merely copied, but the oral traditions are referred to in a way that focuses on the examples and teachings that we can learn from them.

    Muslims believe that’s how the quran was written. It’s their belief set, remember?

    4. Islam oppresses women
    Most of the ill-treatment that women receive in the Muslim world is based on local culture and traditions, without any basis in the faith of Islam. In fact, practices such as forced marriage, spousal abuse, and restricted movement directly contradict Islamic law governing family behavior and personal freedom.

    What part of “.. for those from whom you fear disobedience, first chastise them, then sleep apart from them, and then beat them?” do you not understand? It’s in the quran, and is a rough paraphrase of that lovely part of 4.34, aka the wife-beating verse.

    Why are honour-killers [sic] over in the Middle East not punished? If they do get charged with murder and jailed they spend a minimal amount of time there, and are not poorly treated while in there. Not like, say, a couple of Jewish reservists who took a wrong turn in Ramallah and went to the nearest cop shop for assistance.

    If the violence against women is merely a local or cultural practice, why doesn’t it get supplanted by all the wonderful respect that women are accorded according to sharia law when islam supplants the original culture?

  238. Rabz

    So, a secret believer.

    Not on your life. I just can’t explain the existence of the universe.

    Yet.

  239. Abu Chowdah

    Not on your life. I just can’t explain the existence of the universe.

    No one can. But best to be an agnostic if, you know, bronze age cults turn out to have got it right.

    ;)

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