Alcohol-fueled violence

While one cannot exclude that a small minority of people who ingest alcohol in large quantities tend to become more violent, the recent spate of ‘coward punches’ that has led to deaths of Daniel Christie and Matthew Stanley is likely to have other causes.

Chief among these is the copy-cat. The ‘knockout game’ as it is called in the United States, is described by NPR US as

A teenager, or a bunch of teenagers, bored and looking for something to get into, spies some unsuspecting mark on the street. They size up the person, then walk up close to their target and — BLAM — punch him or her as hard as possible in an effort to knock the person out. The most brazen perpetrators even post the videos on sites like YouTube and Vine.

While there have been five reported deaths in the US from this ‘game’, Jamelle Bouie urges caution to put the phenomenon in proper context. In fact it is often difficult for Police to tell whether assaults are part of the ‘knockout game’ or just ‘random assaults that always occur’.

Importantly, though, alcohol is never mentioned as the catalyst of the violence. There are a number of reasons cited for the growth of the phenomenon - among these race and antisemitism.

So why is it that when the ‘game’ is imported to Australia (to what true extent is not yet known), alcohol is cited as the major factor?

I suspect the wowsers are seeing an opportunity for further regulations to promote their anti-drinking message.  The media are lapping this up – with front page stories of a surge in ‘alcohol fueled violence’. But where is the evidence? Why not blame a lack of discipline, boredom, use of other drugs, or a slack judicial system? Indeed how do we know that the so-called ‘coward punch’ is not just a myth and the people killed and injured have been assaulted just as others have been in the past.

Whatever the cause, and whatever the extent of the ‘coward punch’ phenomenon in Australia, surely the key is that those perpetrating the violence be subject to the full force of the law? The person alleged to have assaulted Daniel Christie, Shaun McNeil, has a long history of violence, including four assaults and two breaches of apprehended domestic violence orders. McNeil has never served time in jail. If he indeed assaulted Christie, he should be convicted of manslaughter.

But enough with the ‘alcohol-fueled violence’. Do not give violent criminals an excuse for their crimes.

About Samuel J

Samuel J has an economics background and is a part-time consultant
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128 Responses to Alcohol-fueled violence

  1. james

    I know poms in particular are amazed when they see just how much of a hold wowsers have on Australian society.

    They have such people in the UK of course, they just don’t get as much of a hearing.

    For example when smoking was banned in pubs over there an actual ferocious debate was held in contrast with the chorus of hosannas we had here.

  2. Bruce

    Testosterone. Easily fixed.

    One ball for the first offense, second ball for second offense and middle stump for any action occasioning death.

  3. Abraham

    What role could ‘culture’ play in this? And by that I mean the principles and values ingrained within a culture which guides their conduct. Why do certain cultures have a greater propensity for violence than others?

  4. ChrisPer

    My 18 year old son was attacked in this way a couple of weeks ago. He lay unconscious in a suburban street in a pool of blood from the early hours to 11am, unnoticed. He thought his phone had been taken but it was found in the mess and returned two days later.

    I favour summary justice for these killers, but summary justice for journalists who trigger copycats would be even better. One workover with a cluebat for every cliche that builds up the perpetrators; up to an eye for an eye and a life for a life. Remember that even civil massacres like Port Arthur and the one in Norway are taught and rewarded by the media, who now even publish the killers’ self-prepared publicity packages.

  5. phil

    As a Sydney copper in the late 80s I saw the decriminalisation of public drunkenness, replaced by involuntary detention (without any criminal sanction) to sober up. I was surprised to recently read that this was being reintroduced so assume that it had been dropped also.

    Then came the ‘responsible service of alcohol’ laws in the early 90s, enforcement of which seems to have fizzled out years ago. It’s been a good 10 years since I’ve seen police patrol licensed premises, or even doing beat patrol in the city. All thanks to Peter Ryan. Police commands keep getting merged and there are about half the number of stations as there used to be.

    For a few generations now schools have clamped down on bullying so hard that harsh words are rare, let alone the old schoolyard fight.

    So we have unfettered drinking, a lack of police deterrence and young guys who have no appreciation of what it’s like to get punched in the head. What could possibly go wrong?

    So, a creep to decriminalisation and even any lack of social stigma around getting pissed

  6. Like have great sympathy for the parents of the victims, how must their mothers suffer.

    Now the usual suspects will want to take it out on the thousands of civilised people who wander around, a little bit tipsy, who are no danger to anyone else but themselves.

    Yes Bruce, I was going to make a joke about ‘taking away the guns*’ but testicle removal would be a strong disincentive.

  7. Baldrick

    The problem existed in the UK many years before it became fashionable in the USA.
    In the UK it was called a ‘happy slap’.
    You’d be naive to think it’s not occurring in Australia.

  8. steve

    Let’s not over analyse. An eye for an eye is all that is needed.

  9. Tom

    Not just the booze, but a cocktail: alcohol+psychotropic drugs+judicial immunity. The left controls the judiciary, so you can get away with killing or maiming people because you were the victim. And the left will demand that people who didn’t commit the crime must be punished.

  10. ChrisPer

    the left will demand that people who didn’t commit the crime must be punished.

    And a Liberal Prime Minister will leap to lead the baying pack hunting the innocent – again.

  11. Riverina Matt

    For a few generations now schools have clamped down on bullying so hard that harsh words are rare, let alone the old schoolyard fight.

    So we have unfettered drinking, a lack of police deterrence and young guys who have no appreciation of what it’s like to get punched in the head. What could possibly go wrong?

    Actually, that’s a good point. I was in plenty of scraps in high school but I haven’t thrown a punch in anger since I was 17. You used to learn at school that not everyone will pander to you – nowadays any minor incident is “disrespect”.

  12. Abraham

    ChrisPer …

    And a Liberal Prime Minister will leap to lead the baying pack hunting the innocent – again.

    What is your rationale behind saying this …

  13. Mayan

    “Alcohol-fuelled violence”? Oh my …

    The other week, I found myself having some veg out time with Mum, during which we watched a movie made in Canada a few years ago. The theme involved some drunk kid who hit someone and killed him. At the end of this snooze-fest (it was on in the background while we talked) was some ‘the names have been changed’ disclaimer and then then something using the term “alcohol-fuelled violence.” Odd that the same tawdry hand-wringing was in use half way around the world a few years ago.

    Maybe there really is a well-organised neo-prohibitionist movement?

    It has been said by several overseas visitors that, while the Brits, especially the Scots, might like a bit of a fight, the Australians who are causing the problem are ‘feral’; things don’t start out with words (from which one can back down) then escalate, but rather many young Australians just hit first with no warning. That screams cultural issue more than anything else.

    In the US context, it’s really quite remarkable just how diligently the media there has ignored the obvious racial animosity involved in those attacks.

  14. crocodile

    One ball for the first offense, second ball for second offense and middle stump for any action occasioning death.

    Trouble with this is that the wrong guy can be done. Not so easy to re-nut someone after the mistake is uncovered.

  15. So why is it that when the ‘game’ is imported to Australia (to what true extent is not yet known), alcohol is cited as the major factor?

    So you’re claiming that this idiot -

    The person alleged to have assaulted Daniel Christie, Shaun McNeil, has a long history of violence, including four assaults and two breaches of apprehended domestic violence orders. McNeil has never served time in jail. If he indeed assaulted Christie, he should be convicted of manslaughter.

    took the time to read about the knockout game in the USA and acted on it.

    You have got to be kidding.

    he should be convicted of manslaughter murder.

    And all the victims of the scores of young men killed in this manner should take out a class action against the liquor lobby.

  16. Kaboom

    I believe that in the United States, due to demographics, it is more popularly referred to as “”Polar Bear Hunting” rather than the “knockout game” you have described.

  17. ChrisPer

    ChrisPer …

    And a Liberal Prime Minister will leap to lead the baying pack hunting the innocent – again.

    What is your rationale behind saying this …

    I refer to what is called the Gun Buybacks of 1996 and 2002, when John Howard ‘seized the opportunity provided by Port Arthur’ and led the baying lynch mob of political correctniks and media experts, to destroy and deride the good names of a million Australians who had owned and used guns, take and destroy their valued property including heirlooms and historic arms, and smash those innocent people with a huge deadweight loss in abusive licensing processes.

    And we can count on a Liberal to grab a good opportunity to buy moral approval from the media at the cost of Australian freedom – again.

  18. kae

    I doubt that renaming the act ‘cowards punch’ will cause any different behaviour.

    Surely people understand that there is no forethought when some thug king hits a stranger just for shits-and-giggles?

    If a person is inclined to mindless violence, for example, king hitting strangers, that person needs to be asked what his intention was. “I didn’t mean to kill/maim him” is the reply, but it’s not much of a defence. If you sucker punch someone you certainly were going to hurt them. It is not harmless fun.

  19. And all the victims

    Should have read

    “And all the families of the victims”.

  20. Andrew of Randwick

    I suspect the wowsers are seeing an opportunity for further regulations to promote their anti-drinking message

    The post-event penalties will not stop the act. At the time of the act the perpetrator is so high on drugs and alcohol that they are not making a rational considered cost/benefit calculation. Thus as a community we must look at prevention.
    Why are the property rights of licencees valued so highly above my right to safe passage?
    Why are the politicians so keen to spend my money on all sorts of hair-brained schemes (or more convoluted service regulation) when the licencing hours (not further regulations) are staring them in the face?
    When did we (as a community) decide that drinking till 4am, and sleeping till 2pm was a great way to spend a weekend and a benefit to our society?
    Controlling alcohol availability reduces violence – see Newcastle example (not specifically ‘coward punches’ but all manner of glassings, punching, pushing, and pissing, etc). Early closing hours prevents pre-loading. It is not rocket science.
    .
    If you do not agree with controlling then go truly libertarian – why have licences at all? Make alcohol available at every cafe, supermarket and corner shop 24/7, just like smokes.
    .
    P.S. My other bug bear is ‘random’ breath testing – what a complete waste of resources. Let’s have ‘targeted ‘ breath testing. It is a long time since the AHA had the power to bring down governments. Why do we continue on with this highly inefficient (and costly) way of trying to capture people who break the law?

  21. Dan

    The business about the “knockout game” is nonsense and has been convincingly so demonstrated by the guys at Reason. No-one charged has ever mentioned they were part of a game. The video part is new due to technology.

  22. kae

    Why is it a publican’s fault that a patron acts like an idiot? Add to that the thug is probably not on premises when displaying this behaviour and why is the publican responsible?

    Many people these days binge drink before they go out so that they don’t need to drink much while out – it’s a lot cheaper to drink your bottle of rum with a dash of coke before you go out and get primed!

    I wanted to join the police when I left school, however, I was not accepted. A policeman friend said that the repeal of the summary offences act in NSW had made policing very difficult and it probably wasn’t a good time to be in the force.

    Nothing’s changed, in fact things have got worse!

  23. Abraham

    ChrisPer …

    Thanks.

    Yes, it is truly disappointing when politicians latch onto situations such as this to curb personal liberties. In the same breath, they never demand personal responsibility. So whilst politicians pursue the limitations through regulations of the personal liberties of law-abiding citizens, they give a free pass to law-breakers. Typical.

  24. Dan

    Again and again we see violent recidivists who have never been properly sentenced. If many of them have 5-6 convictions under their belt and were put away properly that would reduce the incidence by 80%, simple mathematics.

  25. handjive

    Quote: “I suspect the wowsers are seeing an opportunity for further regulations to promote their anti-drinking message.”

    A strange phenomenon in this debate is who advocates for what.
    There are people who see this as an attack on freedom via alcohol, but are quite happy to advocate more laws and regulations on ‘illegal’ drugs like cannabis through out society.

    The ONLY result of prohibition is corruption.

    And they say history never repeats.

  26. Token

    Numbers indirectly warns us about another threat in this call for state intervention, how the amoral left will highjack the discussion as a way to pass illiberal laws which do not address the problem as they are targeted at “redistribution” to the ALP’s client class of lawyers.

  27. Token

    What role could ‘culture’ play in this? And by that I mean the principles and values ingrained within a culture which guides their conduct. Why do certain cultures have a greater propensity for violence than others?

    A lot.

    The way people view alcohol and the volumes consumed do need to be addressed. One suspects the discussion Tinta was alluding to across the weekend to mental health also needs to be a part of the conversation.

  28. ar

    The anti-bullying crusade has a lot to blame. These matters used to be sorted out from an early age and victim and aggressor would both learn how they should better conduct themselves. Victims learn how to recognise and handle arseholes. Arseholes learn some limits to their behaviour. Now that bullying is handled in a touchy feely caring sharing way, these lessons are lost.

  29. Token

    My 18 year old son was attacked in this way a couple of weeks ago. He lay unconscious in a suburban street in a pool of blood from the early hours to 11am, unnoticed. He thought his phone had been taken but it was found in the mess and returned two days later.

    I would like a study of the “motives” of these thugs.

    How many have been raised to be believe their envy toward those with more than them is justified in every other part of their lives? The thug who killed Thomas Kelly was one envious emotional midget (and from his trial we found out his brothers were as bad).

  30. Token

    The anti-bullying crusade has a lot to blame

    SNAP

  31. ar

    The way people view alcohol and the volumes consumed do need to be addressed.

    Nah, that’s an individual choice.

  32. ChrisPer

    Numbers:

    So why is it that when the ‘game’ is imported to Australia (to what true extent is not yet known), alcohol is cited as the major factor?

    So you’re claiming that this idiot… took the time to read about the knockout game in the USA and acted on it.

    You have got to be kidding.

    he should be convicted of manslaughter murder.

    And all the victims of the scores of young men killed in this manner should take out a class action against the liquor lobby.

    Copycat violence via media influence is real. The Port Arthur killer was almost certainly influenced by anti-gun lobbyists Roland Browne and Rebecca Peters’ program on A Current Affair, which taught how to buy illegal guns. Media offered rewards of infamy for committing that crime via the media blitz about Dunblane. The Coroner found that same program one suicide travelled interstate and acted on Browne and Peters’ teaching on how to get a gun.
    And after the 1996 buyback Lee Rhiannon and her toadies at the ABC kept banging on about handguns, with the result that a certain foreign student jumped through the legal hoops to get handguns, and at the height of media hysteria over the Washington snipers in 2002 committed the Monash University shootings.

    Generic activists might blame ‘the alcohol lobby’ for one, but they apparently cannot operate without a class enemy. Those of us raised properly can get stinking drunk without belting people for fun, but add a few rocks of ice and some killer dope in the past and you get a violent criminal in a certain percent of cases.

  33. tomix

    If you or i are convicted of assault then you or i are very likely to go to jail.

    Since so often these blokes seem to have enjoyed a dream run in the Courts,
    some other factors must be in play. IMO

  34. candy

    And all the victims of the scores of young men killed in this manner should take out a class action against the liquor lobby.

    1735099,

    In all due respect, that might be too simple a view for a complex problem?

    The prime minister wrote an interesting article for the Daily Telegraph on the subject a few days ago, and mentioned several factors, the “disturbed individual” looking to use violence on a vulnerable innocent person in the street, alcohol and quite possibly steroid use, and also nominated the full force of the law be used on the offender.

  35. ar

    Then came the ‘responsible service of alcohol’ laws in the early 90s, enforcement of which seems to have fizzled out years ago. It’s been a good 10 years since I’ve seen police patrol licensed premises, or even doing beat patrol in the city.

    You need to get out more.

    The fun police are in full swing. Try dancing at a local club and a pocket Hitler will have you in his or her sights. Look like you’re enjoying yourself and you’re OUT!

  36. phil

    Hah I’m a few decades away from clubs! Not dead yet!

  37. Toiling Mass

    Phil,

    Totally agree that the policy of emasculating schoolboys contributes. And not just for an appreciation of the pain, but also for a sense of what is permitted.

    We read now of the stompings, the attacking without provocation etc. These likely always existed, but they seem to be perpetrated now by ordinary people who happen to get on the sauce.

    Years ago they banned certain cartoons which contained violence (which also showed that you only respond to extreme provocation), but since then so many video games involve ‘shoot – kill – move on’. Generally the targets are baddies, zombies, enemy soldiers etc (who are trying to kill you, all essentially fantasy) – but some people seem unable to distinguish between that environment and the street.

  38. Jessie

    12/2013 SMH: The Abbott government’s unexpected termination of all funding to Australia’s only national drug and alcohol body late last month has left the drug and alcohol treatment and prevention sector with many lingering questions.
    Perhaps the most important question is this: what is our social vision for Australia?……………

    1/2014 The Australian: PETROL sniffing is still common in some Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory and West Australia despite nearly a decade of low-vapour Opal fuel being available.
    ………….”The problem areas are invariably because there is an active movement of sniffable fuel into the area or it isn’t covered by the rollout of Opal,” he added. “This is beyond borders, so a regional approach is very important.”
    Indigenous Affairs Minister Nigel Scullion yesterday blamed the phenomenon on the federal government’s patchy rollout of the Opal fuel…………… (bold added)

  39. Old Salt

    The only way to overcome the reticence of the magistrates to punish these criminals is to introduce minimum mandatory sentences. In addition, the past ‘form’ of the criminals should be published in the court to prevent the ‘out of character’ nonsense pedalled by lawyers.

    How many more examples of criminals continuing to attack innocent people whilst on bail/good behaviour bonds are required before the NSW government acts?

  40. Abraham

    Jessie …

    Why does the Government get blamed for individuals’ lack of self-restraint and self-control?

  41. Gab

    Loveridge was big-noting himself to mates before going to King’s Cross. He said “I swear I’m going to bash someone” and then proceeded to get tanked. So intent was already there, the alcohol is no excuse. Loveridge then attacked four people, killing Thomas Kelly – and for this the dirty coward got four years.

    Loveridge has a history of assaults, prior to killing Kelly but was never jailed for any offence.

    Don’t blame alcohol, blame the offender who knows right from wrong.

    Loveridge should have been sentenced to life in prison for killing Thomas Kelly

  42. nerblnob

    There seems to be a common theme in media reports that there’s something uniquely Australian about these attacks and that the solution is to add more restrictions on pub hours and increase alcohol pricing yet again.

    It doesn’t take much research to see that similar attacks have taken place in UK and USA, and that the price and restrictions on going out for a beer or glass of wine (god forbid you should want a nip of whisky!) are completely OTT compared to any other first world country. OK, you might pay more for a drink in Norway or Denmark or Switzerland but you can still get a drink almost any time.

    The best, most congenial and safest places to drink when out and about anywhere in the world are invariably small owner-operated bars and pubs. For a while (Kennett-era Melbourne) legislators seemed to get this, but now the icy dead hand of wowserism is coming down again and another Dark Age looms for Australia. What will result from more restrictive legislation that is more of the big soul-less places that violent youths are attracted to, as smaller low-pressure places go to the wall.

    The Greens and the wowser wings of other major parties will be all in favour of this, portraying themselves as warriors against The Liquor Lobby (or can we just call it “Big Beer” for full ridiculous effect?). The inevitable degradation and suffocation of formerly decent drinking joints will be cited as further evidence of the need to clamp down.

    You Libertarians ought to get real about this threat – the unregulated and random associations allowed by peaceful public drinking venues open all hours is a lot more essential to a free society than some of the other things you get exercised about.

  43. dragnet

    We could be discussing and dissecting this until the cows come home.
    I am a Sydney city late night owl myself so I see a lot of this stuff going on from a number of perspectives. I certainly agree that the “alcohol fuelled” aspect is a beat-up as it is clear to me that a lot of these fellas in town are also hopped up on Red Bull type energy drinks and/or steroids and/or amphetamines of whatever ilk. I can certainly see that this may be a convenient excuse to further regulate the 95% of nightowls who know how to behave.
    While I agree that some of the sentences handed down have been too soft, and there is too much lenience extended to repeat offenders and those committing offences whilst on bail, I don’t know if tougher penalties are going to have a deterrent effect as my observations are that a lot of people out n about don’t have the brain or the conscience-ness to begin with!
    The current liquor regulations as to RSA and lock-outs etc may of course also be having a completely opposite effect to that intended as well.

  44. Look at all the fascists coming out of the woodwork blaming alcohol, drugs and videogames for a problem that is almost completely caused by the lack of real world consequences for violence.

    This doesn’t happen in other countries because people who behave like this end up in prison or dead. In Australia, just tell them about how your daddy didn’t love you enough and you’ll be turned out with a good behaviour bond or nothing at all.

    Meanwhile our police are too busy intimidating people riding motorbikes to actually stop any real crime.

  45. Mr Rusty

    Shaun McNeil, has a long history of violence…McNeil has never served time in jail.

    There is the problem, right there.
    No consequences for their actions, just excuses from dipshit leftard Judges trying to blame anyone and anything but the perp for their behaviour.
    Even a knuckle-dragging , pissed up steroid junkie would think twice about assaulting someone if he feared the consequences – such as a 2 year stint of hard labor for GBH / ABH or life for murder / manslaughter. As such while we have a criminal excusing system instead of a criminal justice system violence will continue and the 99% of law abiding responsible people will bear the brunt and cost of silly half-measures and have their nights out ruined by overzealous bouncers who refuse you entry because “your eyes look glazed” (when you wear contact lenses) or “you can’t walk straight” (when you accidentally stumble over a raised area of the pavement on the approach to the pub having not consumed a drop.)

    One day some genius will figure out that alcohol induced rates of violence are higher in countries with piss weak, progressively fucked criminal justice systems (the Anglosphere) than other countries with appropriate penalties (Russia, Japan, Singapore.)

  46. You Libertarians ought to get real about this threat – the unregulated and random associations allowed by peaceful public drinking venues open all hours is a lot more essential to a free society than some of the other things you get exercised about.

    yeah, us libertarians have completely ignored this issue amiright?

  47. Jessie

    Abraham, I do not know.

    The fuel/mining/transport, manufacturing and retail (advertising and sales) industry have paid at each step for individual behaviour.

    This seems to be longstanding from a few examples below. Geography seems to play a part in the media reports.

    1/2013 The writing’s on the wall (Rothwell The Australian)
    7/2012 Cheap, easy, fatal: scourge of sniffing returns to remote northern landscape
    Petrol sniffing is back on the front page today……………….
    3/2011 There is in fact very strong evidence of less severe intoxication and violence in Alice Springs than was occurring five years ago, as evidenced by the reduction in hospital admissions for stabbings, serious harm, and the combined homicide and manslaughter rate.
    Purportedly the petrol sniffing was imported to Australia by US soldiers WW2 (copycat hypothesis), glue sniffing from ?UK, but glue not as readily available in remote Australia, $ for remote youth may favour petrol instead alcohol/marijuana. Fuel outlets are forced to convert to OPAL fuel. Analysis of 3 decades of petrol sniffing literature demonstrates omitted variables: enforcement to attend circumcision and re-tribalisation, lack of education/employment/housing, hunger, forced marriage, violence (rape, assault) and non-receipt of $ as tribal Councils redistribute welfare $.
    Alcohol was brought with the colonisers it is told.

  48. Abraham

    Yobbo …

    In Australia, just tell them about how your daddy didn’t love you enough and you’ll be turned out with a good behaviour bond or nothing at all.

    Spot on …

  49. .

    I agree Nerblob.

    The liquor industry is like a festering giant that feeds on its own disease.

    Smaller bars get less fights. This is simply a fact and a result of general human behaviour.

    Deregulation would solve a lot of problems. The absurd thing is the wowsers use the decrease in licences as a metric to rpove how far they’ve advanced against the demon drink.

    The logical (and absurd conclusion) is that if everyone operated a bar business in their own home, society would be totally chaotic. The reality is it would to the greatest extent possible, limit alcohol related violence.

  50. Token
    The way people view alcohol and the volumes consumed do need to be addressed.

    Nah, that’s an individual choice.

    Ah, the joy of blogging. You have to write an essay to ensure all the nuance of your comment is understood.

    A number of other cultures have evolved in a way wereby to be blind drunk is seen to bring shame. This guides the individual and the decisions and choices they make.

  51. C.L.

    Meanwhile our police are too busy intimidating people riding motorbikes to actually stop any real crime.

    LOL. Unbelievable video.

    “How many friends do you have?” the police demand to know.

    I can see only one dangerous, armed gang in that clip.

  52. Token

    Why does the Government get blamed for individuals’ lack of self-restraint and self-control?

    Why do so many people have no regard for themselves and get so drunk in the first place?

  53. C.L.

    And a Liberal Prime Minister will leap to lead the baying pack hunting the innocent – again.

    What is your rationale behind saying this …

    Um, bed-wetter John Howard’s communist gun “buy-back.”

  54. Jessie

    The other massive industry of grants and programs.

    Abraham, I am sure there are urban egs of such: local/state govt aided by public health legislate special city zones/entertainment districts, lock outs, pricing (alcopops) etc etc etc.

  55. .

    As such while we have a criminal excusing system instead of a criminal justice system violence will continue and the 99% of law abiding responsible people will bear the brunt and cost of silly half-measures and have their nights out ruined by overzealous bouncers who refuse you entry because “your eyes look glazed” (when you wear contact lenses) or “you can’t walk straight” (when you accidentally stumble over a raised area of the pavement on the approach to the pub having not consumed a drop.)

    I think a lot of the violence stems from a lot of Sydney bouncers not coming from a drinking culture and having an absurd standard of ‘intoxication’. Yes, most of them who were like that did have names like Faisal and Mohammad.

    Perhaps they need sensitivity training?

    Not to mention the amount of bouncers who were on the juice, generally speaking.

  56. wazsah

    Agree labeling of assaults as “king hits” and “coward punches” should be stopped. It is violent crime whatever and perps should be apprehended, charged, sentenced, incarcerated. Under 18′s should have only one chance at non-publishing of name etc. Everybodies past record should be available and public in court. People charged should appear in court in clothing and appearance as they were at time of offence. Process too drawn out, should be dealt with inside a month. Should have med/low security prison farms where useful work is done, food is grown and useful skills taught. For first few months of sentence people should have to camp under canvas, only graduate to built quarters after period of good behaviour.
    Somehow we have to get away from the near unlimited right of lawyers to invent a pack of PC lies about their client for the court. Our courts are so pathetic they could do with a “citizens rep” on the bench with powers to adjourn and discuss concerns with beak. I think if we had the rules of evidence explained we would be appalled at how hamstrung the police and prosecutors are.
    Also sick of seeing police media people characterizing some crimes as cowardly – say violence against an older person . Oh so it would have been more OK to courageously bash up a younger person. Crazy. Crime is crime is crime.
    Apologies for length of whinge.

  57. Boambee John

    Victims of persons with a history of violence who commit further acts of violence while on bail or under a non-custodial sentence should be able to sue the judge/magistrate who granted bail personally (not the state (s)he works for). Same for the parole board which lets a violent offender out on bail.
    Making the judge/magistrate/parole board personally responsible for supervising “their” cases might also help.

  58. .

    Token
    #1148469, posted on January 13, 2014 at 10:27 am

    Why does the Government get blamed for individuals’ lack of self-restraint and self-control?

    I think despite his left wing proclivities on the High Court bench, Kirby was a good judge during his career. However – his notion of proximity took civil liability too far.

    The problem was legislators also took this into legislature made law, formalising it in criminal law or at least small misdemeanor fines – but also large ones for regulatory breaches.

    Now it has been all but set in stone due to the enforcement and applicaiton by government and judiciary.

    Federal Parliament really ought to change our common law on proximity. Then we can repeal a heap of stupid and illiberal laws, like a lot of liquor legislation, OH&S and civil liability laws (such as capped claims).

  59. C.L.

    One thing we have to be careful about is instituting a generalised criminalisation of fisticuffs under some dopey “zero tolerance”-style policy. What we don’t want is men justifiably defending themselves or others being charged. That’s what I see coming. If somebody starts a fight and ends up unconscious, he was fair game.

  60. Noddy

    >But enough with the ‘alcohol-fueled violence’. Do not give violent criminals an excuse for their crimes.<

    There is no excuse.
    It is the mind-set of society!
    The modern creed is…
    I HATE God and my country,
    I DISHONOR the Flag,
    I WONT SERVE the Queen,
    And REFUSE to obey my parents, teachers and the laws.

    Some older people will remember it in a decent format!
    It used to be recited in schools but was abolished so as not to offend.
    Now we are paying the price of libertarianism.

  61. C.L.

    Victims of persons with a history of violence who commit further acts of violence while on bail or under a non-custodial sentence should be able to sue the judge/magistrate who granted bail personally (not the state (s)he works for). Same for the parole board which lets a violent offender out on bail.
    Making the judge/magistrate/parole board personally responsible for supervising “their” cases might also help.

    Right.

  62. .

    Somehow we have to get away from the near unlimited right of lawyers to invent a pack of PC lies about their client for the court. Our courts are so pathetic they could do with a “citizens rep” on the bench with powers to adjourn and discuss concerns with beak. I think if we had the rules of evidence explained we would be appalled at how hamstrung the police and prosecutors are.

    They’re not hamstrung. Crown prosectuors are formidable attorneys. Police have plenty of laws to enforce. Too many, in fact.

    I am partial to an elected judiciary (perhaps ably assisted by a legal counsel) but part of the problem is legal arguments are not always known to juries in higher courts and for magistrates – they can’t relate to the victims and defendant. They have lived a life of good character (we hope) and live in good areas where violent people are shunned or have been drummed out of their respective industries – and the organised crime leaders who may live in a good area generally keep a low profile or at least their nose clean.

  63. Old School Conservative

    Some of the tinkering-at-the-edges solutions have some merit, but the greatest degree of success in stamping out violence involves a basic two pronged strategy.
    1. Show all perpetrators of violent conduct the strength of society’s revulsion by mandatory jail sentences.
    2. Teach the history of Christianity and Western civilisation in all schools.
    This strategy would help stop the violence in our streets by removing the offenders, and reduce the number of potential offenders.

  64. Notvelty

    I reached the age of 18 in the early 90s and have seen, I think, all of the changes come through in the last 20 years. To start with, I should put the lie that there has been some sort of increase in trading hours to bed. This is bunkum. Though more venues open until later, it was quite easy to find a place in the city that was open until five, legally serving drinks until close.
    Back then the call was not violence. Rather, the call was public health. “We cannot have so much drinking,” the wowsers would say, “because it makes people sick.” And so, to protect people from themselves, limits were placed such that clubs were not allowed to advertise “getting drunk” as a reason for attending their venue. The big clubs backed it, and backed the follow-up laws that would eventually completely destroy cheap drinks, because it meant that they could keep their control on the scene. The usual brigade, of course, were also happy, because they were stopping people making themselves sick.
    From memory, though, it was around then that the violence started.
    Before that, if you went to a cheap pub or club, where they served cheap drinks early, there would inevitably be a smell in the toilets. Yup. Some idiots had had too much to drink, threw up and had to go home.. all by 9pm. It was an excellent lesson: if you want to stay out longer than an hour and avoid the teasing from your mates, you learnt to control your ingestion. After the cutting out of cheap drinks, these same idiots (or the next generation of), I suggest, are the ones who get into fights or attack random people.
    Take away the levelling power of enough alcohol, and the violence rose. It must have been a heaven-sent opportunity for the nannies. Now they didn’t just have people making themselves sick, they had others getting hurt. “Clamp down more!” they said.
    What followed, in my experience, could not have been more perfectly designed to increase the levels of violence. Expensive drinks? Fuel up at home quickly so that it all hits at once. Too much to drink? Excellent, we’ll let you stay at that just-right level of too drunk to decide, but not too drunk to pass out. Feeling too happy? We’ll exclude you so you’re not happy any more. People were drinking a lot at home, in comfort and safety and, just as they were starting to feel the effects, were going out to loud, dark places with lots of people crowding them. Add to that drinks prices that mean you needed to mortgage your right arm to a loan shark and you have a drunk, scared person who is made more anxious by concerns about money.
    It is a fact that violence has increased in proportion to the number of controls and laws placed upon the service and consumption of alcohol. But we can’t go back to the time when the only people hurt were the idiots who drank themselves to sickness, because that would mean the wowsers would need to admit error. So we’ll just continue making things worse and worse.

  65. Abraham

    Token …

    Why do so many people have no regard for themselves and get so drunk in the first place?

    May I offer my personal theory. In more pious times where moral absolutes still existed, your behaviour either led to your salvation or condemnation. Individuals were acutely aware how the lived their lives would determine their fate in the afterlife.

    Then came post-modernism and moral relativism. God is dead and anything goes. Live for the moment and YouTube it. What awaits you in the afterlife (now that it doesn’t exist) can not be influenced by what you do and how you act.

    But like I said, it’s just my personal opinion.

  66. .

    Noddy
    #1148486, posted on January 13, 2014 at 10:36 am

    But enough with the ‘alcohol-fueled violence’. Do not give violent criminals an excuse for their crimes.<

    There is no excuse.
    It is the mind-set of society!
    The modern creed is…
    I HATE God and my country,
    I DISHONOR the Flag,
    I WONT SERVE the Queen,
    And REFUSE to obey my parents, teachers and the laws.

    Some older people will remember it in a decent format!
    It used to be recited in schools but was abolished so as not to offend.
    Now we are paying the price of libertarianism.

    Bullshit.

    Some of these idiots before the courts are the biggest loud mouthed partiots going around. Ask C.L about their tatts.

    The issue is violence, not the obedience of a child during the 1950s.
    They are violent because they are free? What a disgusting idea.

  67. .

    May I offer my personal theory. In more pious times where moral absolutes still existed, your behaviour either led to your salvation or condemnation. Individuals were acutely aware how the lived their lives would determine their fate in the afterlife

    Christ…have you ever heard of “Gin Alley”?

  68. What we don’t want is men justifiably defending themselves or others being charged.

    This already happens. The police literally don’t care who started a fight. They just want their prosecution quotas filled.

  69. .

    It’s disgusting isn’t it Yobbo?

    (Some) Police officers think they have powers to eliminate the right to self defence and even the right to protect your own property.

    Better to get beaten up, killed or have your shit stolen, and wait for the Police!

  70. Woolfe

    If the perps are so pissed how come they can run up and accurately smack some poor soul? Surely if they were really drunk their coordination would be compromised?

    It is not alcohol, it is the person. What Yobbo said, lock them up. For a long time.

  71. Paul

    “I believe that in the United States, due to demographics, it is more popularly referred to as “”Polar Bear Hunting” rather than the “knockout game” you have described.”

    True. Media were dismissing it as insignificant until there was a small change in the choice of victim.

  72. Paul

    “Better to get beaten up, killed or have your shit stolen, and wait for the Police!”

    Better to get beaten up, killed or have your shit stolen while waiting still for the Police. There, fixed it.

  73. Jessie

    neblnob @ 10.06
    You are correct.

    And along with a vision of public funded infrastructure to support inner city public transport, bicycles+paths, farmers markets, housing that also caters for the disadvantaged and internet. To allow public servants to work from home. Also called population control I think if outer green fields can not be developed/subdivided or are already under title.
    Does northern Europe (Denmark/Finland/Norway) subscribe to this also? We are importing the same model?

    RESEARCH NOTE
    THE COSTS OF DISEASES AND VIOLENCE IN FINLAND IN 1972
    KARI HEMMINKI Institute of Occupational Health, Haartmaninkatu 1, SF-00290 Helsinki, 29 Finland*
    Abstract-The costs of diseases and violence are calculated considering production losses, compensations and costs of health services in Finland in 1972. The costs total 18.700 million Fmk (=4.500 million US $). The production losses make 75%, compensations 6o% and health services 18% of the total costs. About 83% of the costs can be classified according to the main disease group. In the order of magnitude they are diseases of the circulatory system (24% of the costs), mental disorders (18%), diseases of the musculoskeletal system and connective tissue (17%), and accidents, poisonings and violence (14%).

  74. jupes

    Victims of persons with a history of violence who commit further acts of violence while on bail or under a non-custodial sentence should be able to sue the judge/magistrate who granted bail personally (not the state (s)he works for). Same for the parole board which lets a violent offender out on bail.

    I would extend this to any crime committed from when the criminals were released to the end of the maximum sentence. The effect of this would be that the maximum sentence would be the default position. Parole would be rare.

    Personal responisbility would sharpen the minds of those charged with keeping the streets safe.

  75. Jessie

    ChrisPer @ 7.50am
    My best wishes to your son, and to his full recovery.

  76. Why do so many people have no regard for themselves and get so drunk in the first place?

    Freedom. Antisocial and self destructive behaviour is a classic juvenile expression of liberty. “Hey look, I’m so free I can do all this stupid shit and get away with it!”

  77. rebel with cause

    I agree on sentences that fit the crime. But we need to look further than that. Young people are growing up in a society that seems hell-bent on excusing them from the consequences of their actions. I’ll bet people have been making excuses for the actions of the young men that do this violence long before they decide to hit someone in the back of the head. We can’t expect them to be held accountable for the big transgressions if no-one is willing to hold them accountable for their earlier, smaller transgressions.

  78. Classic example of how police do not respect the right to self-defense was this case in WA a few years back.

    An aboriginal man tried to mug a white guy in a dark alley with a screwdriver. A struggle ensued, and the white guy eventually overpowered his attacker and stabbed him the neck with the screwdriver that the attacker threatened him with.

    The white guy was put on trial for manslaughter, and was eventually cleared (after considerable expense and a trial lasting years). Not before the crown claimed that he had used a different weapon (which never existed)

    Why this case was even taken to trial is just a glaring example of how much of a shithole Australia has become.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/jury-retires-in-brenchley-manslaughter-trial/story-e6frfkp9-1226079014020

  79. Jessie

    wazsah @10.31

    Should have med/low security prison farms where useful work is done, food is grown and useful skills taught. For first few months of sentence people should have to camp under canvas, only graduate to built quarters after period of good behaviour.

    Isn’t that called the Homeland Movement, where to hide the violence people moved out from settlements?
    1970-2014 Public funded experiment = miserable failure for 99.9% inmates.

  80. Mr Rusty

    Christ…have you ever heard of “Gin Alley”?

    Gin was drunk back then not to get blind drunk but because it was a much better bet than drinking water from the pump when you needed to wet your lips. Gin tended not to give you dysentry, cholera, typhoid, salmonella…just a bad headache next morn.

  81. Abraham

    Dot …

    Christ…have you ever heard of “Gin Alley”?

    I’m not ignorant to the fact establishments of ‘ill repute’ existed since forever. Human beings have been doing evil things to each other since forever. I get that. However, there was a time chivalry was considered gentlemanly, saying ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ was commonplace, and a certain level of civility existed.

    That does not happen anymore, chivalry is considered sexist, ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ is seldom uttered, and civility between individuals … well … read the papers.

    Was there this level of violence during the days of the ‘six o’clock swill’?

  82. rebel with cause

    Antisocial and self destructive behaviour is a classic juvenile expression of liberty.

    LOL – except all the countries where kids are seen waving AK-47s around seem to be totalitarian shitholes. Don’t let the evidence spoil your fantasy though.

  83. Jessie

    Yobbo

    A short time earlier, the five men – Anton Kloeden, Joshua Spears, Glen Swain, Timothy Hird and Scott Doody – had been driving up and down the dry Todd River bed, where Aboriginal people sleep, terrorising black campers.

  84. Dan

    Token …

    Why do so many people have no regard for themselves and get so drunk in the first place?

    May I offer my personal theory. In more pious times where moral absolutes still existed, your behaviour either led to your salvation or condemnation. Individuals were acutely aware how the lived their lives would determine their fate in the afterlife.

    Then came post-modernism and moral relativism. God is dead and anything goes. Live for the moment and YouTube it. What awaits you in the afterlife (now that it doesn’t exist) can not be influenced by what you do and how you act.

    But like I said, it’s just my personal opinion.

    Well Japan has none of that superstitious nonsense and is very peaceful, conversely in the Middle Ages people were supposed to believe in a physical hell and violence was as common as ever.

  85. Mr Rusty

    Victims of persons with a history of violence who commit further acts of violence while on bail or under a non-custodial sentence should be able to sue the judge/magistrate who granted bail personally (not the state (s)he works for). Same for the parole board which lets a violent offender out on bail.

    Totally agree. Judges never get to wear the consequences of their pathetic sentences and slaps on the wrist. They don’t live in the blighted suburbs, don’t have to undergo airport style security checks when they go for a few glasses of Chivas at the Cuntington Club and it won’t be their kids that get king hit and end up in a coma / dead.
    Of course the fuckwitted left (above) advocate suing the alcohol producers, yeah cos that will work you stupid nimrods. Let’s all sue Macdonalds for making everyone fat and airlines for crashes and Xbox for gun crime and big oil for getting Abo’s hooked on petrol sniffing and adult entertainment companies for rape etc.

  86. Abraham

    Dan …

    Well Japan has none of that superstitious nonsense and is very peaceful, conversely in the Middle Ages people were supposed to believe in a physical hell and violence was as common as ever.

    Japanese and Middle Eastern cultures are vastly different from Western culture. Japanese culture as recently as WW2 was as violent as they come. Read some of accounts of how Australian Diggers were treated in POW camps. Middle Eastern culture … well … it speaks for itself … since biblical times.

    But here’s my question: “Has Australia always had these levels of unprovoked and unmitigated violence?” If not, what has changed?

  87. Notafan

    took the time to read about the knockout game in the USA and acted on it.

    No they don’t need to be able to read it’s an i-phone and youtube. The same way American clothing fashions become the rage. I doubt they read Gentleman’s Quartly for fashion tips either.

    I do not see the correlation between alchohol and these heavy punches from behind. There might be drugs or or might just be that the perpetrators have absolutely no respect for the rights of others.


    and look Steve Biddulph agrees with Cory Bernadi on the gold standard for families

  88. Toiling Mass

    Just to clarify, I am not saying that it is the fault of video games. If it was then the streets would be awash with blood. Games are games and that is how most people play them – for the challenge, to unwind, friendly competition with a mate, whatever.

    There are some people, however, who are are genuinely sociopathic and seem not to absorb from society the full idea of respect for others. I suspect such people also enjoy hurting puppies. My point is that games might amplify bad behaviour. The fault lies with the thug, and likely those he chooses to surround himself with.

  89. Numbers, you’re a deadshit. Punishing liquor companies who supply me with alcohol, which is legal, punishes me for the actions of a thug. What sort of idiot blames everyone but the perpetrator? Oh yeah, you.

  90. But here’s my question: “Has Australia always had these levels of unprovoked and unmitigated violence?” If not, what has changed?

    Such behaviour was only ever acceptable among the working class and to a lesser extent among the middle classes. The left’s hatred of the bourgeois enabled its acceptance. The outcry and outrage at these deaths must be followed up with blame of the perpetrators and legal force to back it up.

  91. Jessie

    jupes @ 11.04
    Your solution would address problems in other areas of Australia. Here is an account where the wife was taken to a very very remote outstation. Why ‘most likely’.
    This is an isolated example, the coroner can only do so many reported/suspicious deaths.(biased sample).

    37. Precisely how the couple made their way from Darwin to Araru is unclear but most likely a charter flight was arranged for them through family connections.
    38. On 25 May 2005 Ms Palipuaminni died a brutal death as the result of a sustained and vicious assault perpetrated upon her by her husband. The numerous injuries she suffered in the immediate period prior to her death included intracranial haemorrhage that lead directly to her death, blunt head
    trauma, blunt chest trauma, and blunt abdominal trauma.
    40. He confirmed to police that neither the deceased nor Trenton had been drinking or smoking marijuana while at the Outstation. This death then falls outside the tragically common experience in the Northern Territory of Aboriginal men who kill their wives or loved ones while heavily affected by alcohol or drugs or both.

    Previous link for Yobbo- Chris Graham (National Indig Times) reports on racism but does not care to report gender violence (see 19-21 of above link). It became all to clear to many women that to pop their head over that parapet of culture was NOT a worthwhile exercise. Better to stay in the system that was created: unemployed, lowly educated and continue to enforced population of the community. Self-determination.

  92. Vicki

    I have been waiting for our mainstream journalists to do their job & report on the “Knock-out Game” that is front and centre in the USA. Obviously too much to expect from our media who are no doubt trying to pin it on Tony Abbott. Failing that, some have even blamed a cult of violence from our involvement in Middle eastern conflict!

    I see it as yet another example of “globalism” & the long tentacles of social media. The lousy standards of child raising in modern families might have a bit to do with it as well.

  93. Jannie

    Alcohol fueled violence has been with us since the Indo Europeans partied on mead on the Eurasian steppe. Its nothing new, but the feminists and wowsers have managed to emasculate young males and deprive them of role models who could demonstrate when it is appropriate to use measured violence, and when to walk away. Violent video games fail to teach kids that violence is unpleasant, that it is not pleasurable to smash somebody’s nose with a clenched fist. A new chemical in the mix is methamphetamine, a lot more of it around than steroids.

    I reckon the State should make heroin freely available after 11.30pm. It would stop the violence and natural selection would remove some of the losers from the gene pool.

  94. Anthony

    @ ar,
    Individual choices are influenced by cultural factors.
    You don’t see these sorts of offences in Germany, for instance, because they have different cultural attitudes towards alcohol consumption, public drunkenness and associated violence.

    But generally, what I think we are seeing as these cases proceed to trial is that many of the perpetrators are serial violent offenders who have been dealt with lightly. The justice system is failing society. .

  95. .

    Yobbo’s example…and people say barristers are not nice people.

    The only way to cut this crap is to have a barrister working privately to sue the WA Government and all their relevant people in charge (Police Comm., Director of DPP) back to the stone age.

    Back on topic…

    Freedom works best here (as always). People don’t want to go and get beaten up. If there was more competition, these incidents would happen a lot less often.

  96. Indigo

    The costs of alchoholism to Australian societies have to be dealt with. The death, destruction and violence is costing the tax payer too much. This has to be recover, in spades, just as tobacco tax collected far exceeds the costs of tobacco related health care.

    I propose penal taxation rates for alchohol – cost of a middie goes up to $20, wine to $80 a bottle and spirits $150 plus. No advertising of alchohol related products. All to be plain labelled, with dire health warnings. And CPI indexed increases, plus opportunistics tax grabs by fiscally incompetent governments.

    Where is Nicola when we need her?

  97. Victims of persons with a history of violence who commit further acts of violence while on bail or under a non-custodial sentence should be able to sue the judge/magistrate who granted bail personally (not the state (s)he works for).

    The judges need to be independent, removing judicial immunity would mean any one rich enough would be able to threaten judges into compliance. It would be a better idea to make the lawyers liable for any arguments or assertions about future behaviour they make on behalf of their clients that turn out not to be accurate.

  98. Peter56

    I haven’t drunk since I gave up alcohol (to get drunk) in Darwin in 1980. I still imbibed, drinking my cider, exceptionally rarely, so I don’t care whichever way the governments go in relation to licences and drinking hours and whatnot. Though measures to shut down venues et cetera would be draconian.
    Back in 1979, up The Cross, I had my first and only all-nighter, meaning many bars and clubs were open till the very wee hours, as in 6am. I was duty watch that day, and the duty kellick had me and my mate John, as part of our ‘punishment’ for being drunk, paint one of the many spaces onboard the Melbourne. All safety precautions were in pace, ventilation, check, hatch always open, check, and fan on, double check, but the paint fumes made us quite nauseous, and rueing our efforts of the night.
    What Glenn did that day showed me the error of my ways, though I did continue to get drunk occasionally, until my epiphany in 1980, which was, why get drunk and be seedy and sometimes vomitous for most of next day?
    I was what is called a placid drunk. Mostly I would go see live bands (Flowers, Angels, Midnight Oil, Cold Chisel, Radiators, Willie Winter Band- with Alan Sandow, Split Enz, and many others), get drunk and dance and sing along and have a rollicking fun time. Four bottles of Strongbow Dry, 750ml, will do that, and let me add, it made for great purges the next day. I was in a few fights, all instigated by others, and, being the lesser tanked, remain undefeated in barroom brawls. And after most of them I was escorted from the premises, with no extra belts from the bouncers to finish the night.
    What I am saying is, all-night venues abounded back in the day, without all this mindless violence, possibly because, even though there was much drunkenness, us drunks knew if we stepped out of line, we’d get a good kicking from bouncers or the police actually policed, instead of served, and they would give you a touchup as well.
    Not that the bouncers and police brutality, which some of it was, should be condoned, but the threat of possible bodily harm coming to blokes kept them in check, mostly. And that for mine is the problem.
    The cowardly scumbag that killed Thomas Kelly, and this latest death, both had sheets that read of violence and assault and whatnot, with no gaol time. These subhuman types know that their defenders will cite absolute rubbish like bad upbringing, dad left home, mum was a crack whore, his teacher threw a duster at him (this list is exceptionally long and very imaginative and inventive), and they go free.
    Judges and magistrates, mostly of the leftist, luvvie bent, allow these pathetic excuses of subhumanity to guide their judgements, which in itself should be criminal, and the judges should be charged with not carrying out their duties and discharged posthaste from their judgeships, never to do law again. And, when those they allow to walk the streets, and this goes for parole boards also, go on a rampage and kill someone, they should be charged with the same crime, for they aided and abetted these criminals in their crimes by allowing them their freedom.
    And the families should then sue the judges and members of these parole boards, in civil courts, which would then make them seriously consider their actions in the future. And yes, I know I wrote that judges should lose their judgeships, but that is just me being with the fairies, and not the ones on Oxford Street.

  99. stackja

    Why not blame a lack of discipline, boredom, use of other drugs, or a slack judicial system?

    First the family goes then society goes. Media keep reporting ‘party drugs’ whatever they are. What effect do these ‘party drugs’ have on the undisciplined? Alcohol may have something to do with the problem but I do not remember so much violence in the past. The police of the past may have been by today’s ‘standards’ been heavy-handed but ‘toughs’ did dare attack a policeman. The judicial system does not seem to be providing safety to society.

  100. ar

    @Anthony

    You don’t see these sorts of offences in Germany, for instance, because they have different cultural attitudes towards alcohol consumption, public drunkenness and associated violence.

    Oh, come on. I’ve seen plenty of drunk Germans. Just because they sit there like carved wooden statues doesn’t mean they’re not about to pass out…

  101. Jessie

    Here’s some child raising in modern families Vicki,

    The controversial decision has sparked community outrage, with New Black Panther activist Quanell X calling on the state’s judicial board to investigate.

    “This entire situation is shocking to me. I’ve never seen one like this,” he said.

    “The court failed the child. The court failed Mr. Hall the system broke down.”

    A change.org petition has been set up to fight the ruling. It currently has 634 signatures.

    Hall said he is devastated by the decision. His lawyer is working on an appeal.

    “I can’t be there for my son in jail,” he said. “I can’t pay child support in jail. This is not in the best interest of the child.”

  102. ar

    @.

    Freedom works best here (as always). People don’t want to go and get beaten up. If there was more competition, these incidents would happen a lot less often.

    Exactly – if more places had 24 hour licences people could choose to not go to shitholes like the Cross where violent thugs hang out.

    And if you do want to go to the Cross, don’t walk around with a mobile phone stuck to your ear – keep your wits about you. Of course I am not blaming the victim.

  103. Token

    I propose penal taxation rates for alchohol – cost of a middie goes up to $20, wine to $80 a bottle and spirits $150 plus. No advertising of alchohol related products. All to be plain labelled, with dire health warnings. And CPI indexed increases, plus opportunistics tax grabs by fiscally incompetent governments.

    Where is Nicola when we need her?

    Great satire Indigo. I’m glad someone is willing to take Hammy on :)

  104. .

    What State Governments need to do is use their power under the consent of both houses of Parliament to remove terrible judges and magistrates a lot more often.

    There is a financial disincentive not unlike being sued.

  105. candy

    I still think there’s drugs involved, not just alcohol at all. Guys pumped up on steroids or something, wanting to prove their martial art/fighting skills by knocking someone’s block off. It’s basically murder.

  106. Token

    Good to see that people in NZ don’t see what the fuss is about:

    After all, if a coward punch is one thrown without warning, what is a punch thrown when your target is unconscious and incapable of knowing that he’s even being hit? We need a whole new pugilistic vocabulary to cover this sort of thing. Perhaps we could honour Packer’s new NRL team by naming it a “Newcastle nightcap”.

    Packer mentor and ex-New Zealand rugby league player Davis Lomax blamed in part recent media coverage of violent incidents for Packer’s jail term. “It seems a little bit harsh,” the former international told Kiwi media. ”That’s not to condone what happened – but when I was over there, there was a lot of media about some stuff that has been happening around Kings Cross in Sydney, and guys getting knocked over.”

    Guys “getting knocked over”? That’s a delicate way of putting it. On the weekend the family of Daniel Christie made the devastating decision to take the teenager off life support. Christie had been in a coma since he was “knocked over” during an unprovoked New Year’s Eve assault in the Cross.

    Interesting way to refer to mortalities due to unexpected acts of inexplicable violence.

  107. stackja

    Liberty Quotes
    “Liberals want the government to be your Mommy. Conservatives want government to be your Daddy. Libertarians want it to treat you like an adult.” — Andre Marrou

    Coward punch someone go to prison.

  108. I am the Walrus, koo koo k'choo

    What Yobbo said.

    @ChrisPer: best wishes for the young feller, hope you and the rest of the family are ok too.

  109. Aristogeiton

    Can we stop this drivel of calling things “coward punches”. I have never heard the term used before the abc started banging on about it a fortnight ago. There are differences between, for example, a “king hit”, “sucker punch”. If reports in the media are to be believed, then “affray” or “rampage” is probably a better descriptor of Shaun McNeil’s behaviour before he caused the death of Daniel Christie. Or perhaps Macquarie can change to definition of “misogyny” again to include this kind of behaviour?

    As an aside, this twerp claims to be an “MMA fighter”. I train with blokes who can be properly described as such, and they don’t drink, let alone go on drunken rampages.

  110. Token

    @ChrisPer: best wishes for the young feller, hope you and the rest of the family are ok too.

    +1

    I do hope he recovers.

  111. ChrisPer

    @ChrisPer: best wishes for the young feller, hope you and the rest of the family are ok too.

    Thanks everyone. He was pretty subdued for a few days but seems OK now. His habit is to walk many kms between friends houses. I hope it will encourage him to walk sober, and maybe he will develop improved situational awareness – and phone his mother more often ;-) .

  112. .

    I agree Aristos. I find his “I do MMA” rant then crying whilst having bail refused as evidence he is just a juiced up numpty without any heart.

  113. Combine Dave

    Seems a pretty long bow to draw…

    There’s been alcohol fueled violence (with drunkies willing and wanting to punch on) in Australia for as long as I can remember :)

    I had thought it was an integral part of Australian (and UK) middle/lower class Anglo culture ^^
    - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuEm2MYku7g

    Knock out games imported from African-American youths, not so much.

  114. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From . at 3:33 pm:

    “I agree Aristos. I find his “I do MMA” rant then crying whilst having bail refused as evidence he is just a juiced up numpty without any heart.”

    I read that, about bursting into tears.

    I thought going all Chuck Norris lookalike made one tall, wide, muscular, tough, stoic, mentally strong – like Mahmood “Dave” Dawoud – pain resistant, “too busy to bleed”.

    That wee chappie, Shaunie, ought to demand his money back.

    He’ll be devastated when they pull down his camouflage pants.

  115. Andrew

    Former wet Liberal MP Mal Washer wants the drinking age lifted to 21 years old.

  116. And all the [families of the] victims of the scores of young men killed in this manner should take out a class action against the liquor lobby

    Scenario: A hoodlum mugs a commercial traveller a few blocks up the street from my place.

    Who you gonna sue Sherlock?
    Castlemaine Perkins? (Bunch of Japanese in Tokyo)
    Bundaberg Rum? (Bunch of poms in London)
    or, Me?

    And just how the heck do you think a lawsuit against each/all of us is going to do one bit to help?
    What do you think each/any of us (listed above) have done wrong?

  117. Riverina Matt

    Former wet Liberal MP Mal Washer wants the drinking age lifted to 21 years old.

    Has he looked at the ages of Russell Packer and Shaun McNeil? FMD

  118. JohnA

    Old Salt #1148444, posted on January 13, 2014 at 10:03 am

    The only way to overcome the reticence of the magistrates to punish these criminals is to introduce minimum mandatory sentences. In addition, the past ‘form’ of the criminals should be published in the court to prevent the ‘out of character’ nonsense pedalled by lawyers.

    I have skipped a lot of commentary (by seemingly full-time blog-responders) to support and add to this.

    The defence of “diminished responsibility” is available only in murder cases to reduce a charge to manslaughter, but I suggest that there is a community perception about sentencing rules allowing convicted offenders to “get off lightly.”

    Such reductions give the impression of an “aura” of diminished responsibility permeating a lot more than murder trials.

  119. Aristogeiton

    Mick Gold Coast QLD
    #1149070, posted on January 13, 2014 at 5:19 pm
    [...]
    I thought going all Chuck Norris lookalike made one tall, wide, muscular, tough, stoic, mentally strong – like Mahmood “Dave” Dawoud – pain resistant, “too busy to bleed”.

    Chuck Norris holds a BJJ black belt under Carlos Machado, AFAIK.

  120. Aristogeiton

    Old Salt
    #1148444, posted on January 13, 2014 at 10:03 am
    The only way to overcome the reticence of the magistrates to punish these criminals is to introduce minimum mandatory sentences. In addition, the past ‘form’ of the criminals should be published in the court to prevent the ‘out of character’ nonsense pedalled by lawyers.

    It is relevant at sentencing. Past offences are not relevant in the proof of a criminal offence. In the ancient Greek and Roman context, matters of character were litigated at trial. We don’t tend to see the criminal procedure of those times in a positive light these days.

    /cue Lawyer bashing.

  121. Aristogeiton

    JohnA
    #1149352, posted on January 13, 2014 at 8:51 pm
    [...]
    The defence of “diminished responsibility” is available only in murder cases to reduce a charge to manslaughter, but I suggest that there is a community perception about sentencing rules allowing convicted offenders to “get off lightly.”

    AFAIK, the defence is not really used much these days. These kinds of matters are dealt with under the Mental Health Act. Pickles might know more, being your resident shyster.

  122. There’s little need for a defence of diminished responsibility, not when Magistrates are dishing out understanding instead of punishment.

    I’ve seen thugs in court for their 44th appearance for violence in public (the 44th being for assaulting police) and getting no penalty, and no conviction recorded.
    The Magistrate did dish out a lecture though: “Young man, if you continue with such offences you may find yourself in serious trouble” (That will have really scared him into turning straight.)

  123. Aristogeiton

    Steve at the Pub
    #1149565, posted on January 13, 2014 at 11:08 pm

    We have it ass-about in this country. A friend of mine, an expatriate CP from the UK and now a CP in Queensland, noted that where violence offences attract a far higher penalty than drug offences UK, the situation is reversed here. This is part and parcel of an ideology which grants the citizen limited agency. They can’t help but be preyed upon by drug dealers, and can’t help but demonstrate their “disadvantage” by doing violence. The positive acts of taking illicit drugs and beating their compatriots are neither here nor there.

  124. Robert Crew

    As with every other drug, “set and setting” determine how people react to it – those that first start taking alcohol in violent settings come to act violently when intoxicated, those that don’t, don’t. Personally, I like to see how a person acts when drunk, because then you tend to see their true personality. Full disclosure: I’m drunk now.

  125. We must question why people need to drink, surely in this country of ours we all can’t be so desperately unhappy that we need to medicate ourselves beyond consciousness with alcohol and a plethora of other drugs, legal or other-wise. Or, are we as a society that deeply unhappy that deliberately altering our state of mind the only way any sort of real joy can be found.

    The real answer to the violence phenomena is identity, the only way many males can identify themselves as “men” is through violence, all other avenues of expressing masculinity have either been brow-beaten out of existence or have fallen along the historical way-side.

    We do need as a culture to address and begin the process of re-equipping young males with a sense of masculine identity built around the ideas that respect in self breeds respect in others, that dignity, honesty and forthrightness are the hallmarks of being a man, and not the ruler contest that our current generations have substituted those for.

    As for the perpetrators, the only justice for deliberately taking the life of another is the forfeiture of your own. The idea that these people don’t know the potential consequences of their actions is a nonsense, in legal terms the concept of reasonable out-come is well established, and a reasonably fore-see able out-come of assault is death, making all assaults that lead to death murder. So why not give these people the only sentence befitting murders, death?

  126. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From Aristogeiton at 10:07 pm:

    ” Mick Gold Coast QLD

    I thought going all Chuck Norris lookalike made one tall, wide, muscular, tough, stoic, mentally strong – like Mahmood “Dave” Dawoud – pain resistant, “too busy to bleed”.

    Chuck Norris holds a BJJ black belt under Carlos Machado, AFAIK.”

    … and much more.

    I didn’t think it necessary to explain Chuck Norris had the discipline to study, achieve, compete and teach these disciplines that the be-muscled Shaunie “Weepie” McNeil has read about* in his paintball-skirmish-as-battle-realism magazines.

    * “read about” – relying mostly on those pitcher thingys, and moving his finger along under each word as he tries to sound it out

  127. Aristogeiton

    Mick Gold Coast QLD
    #1150208, posted on January 14, 2014 at 11:47 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtmDDrWuLdk

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