Barry Cohen taking a stand

Barry Cohen is in The Australian today praising Adam Goodes.

After years of reading, studying, talking to people with different views and going to public meetings I decided if I was going to help break down prejudice I had to fight them the only way they understood. Major decisions were made by governments so in 1963 I joined the Labor Party. Six years later I was an MP.

So how did that work out?

I’m sick of Labor leaders making all the right noises to Jewish audiences while an increasing number of backbenchers launch diatribes at Israel. When the likes of Labor MP Tanya Plibersek rise in the House of Representatives and call Ariel Sharon “a war criminal” and Israel a “rogue state”, or Opposition whip Janice Crosio makes the absurd claim that Israeli forces had destroyed Bethlehem, Nablus and the Jenin refugee camp, I want to hear more than stony silence from those in the Labor Party who say they support Israel. Some do. Most don’t.

There will be some who will argue that I am exaggerating; that the evidence is sparse; that this typical Jewish paranoia. Not at all. It came from the horses’ mouths, and the head horses at that. Before the Iraq war one of the most senior NSW right-wing MPs told me: “I understand and support Israel’s position, but in my group, I’m the only one.”

Soon after I told a Labor legend: “Anti-Semitism is now rampant in the Labor Party.” I expected a vigorous denial. His response confirmed my worst fear: “I know,” he said.

For better or worse my character and life were shaped by the anti-Semitism I experienced as a boy and a young man. I was proud to belong to a party that fought all forms of prejudice. Not any longer.

Mind you – he wasn’t too annoyed by ALP anti-semitism.

A longer version of this article (which Barry Cohen asked not be published until after the federal election) appears in the Australian Jewish News.

(emphasis added).

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228 Responses to Barry Cohen taking a stand

  1. whyisitso

    I think Cohen’s article in today’s Oz had more than a tinge of dishonesty about it. He claims: “some oaf uttered some crude, insensitive racist remarks”.

    Equating this with anti-semitism is stupid. The “oaf” was a child who hated Goodes, not because he was aboriginal, but because he was a Swans player doing brilliant footy stuff against her beloved Maggies.

    Rewarding this bullying by Goodes was shocking.

  2. Rabz

    He claims: “some oaf uttered some crude, insensitive racist remarks”

    And there I was thinking Cohen was referring to Eddie the Imbecile.

    P.S. That Cohen piece is a shocker.

  3. H B Bear

    Cohen reminds us of a simpler time, before the ALP was overrun by thieves, chancers and Emilys Listers, when an ordinary feeble minded duffer could aspire to a life on the Canberra leather.

    Feel free to publish this at any time.

  4. james

    Cohen is a wonderful example of why Australian Jewish people, despite living in this country since its foundation, have never fit in or found a place inside society where they feel comfortable.

    Given a choice between a millionaire thug and his vulnerable victim he instantly sides with whoever comes from the approved “outsider” group.

    All Jewish people in this country consider themselves perpetual outsiders. Despite their community’s contributions to the mainstream culture of Australia they are always on the outside looking in. Viewing Anglo-Celtic Australia as less of a companion on our journey together in this southern land more as a constant threat, like a snake that could strike at any time.

    Kind of ironic that the left they counted on to weaken Anglo-Celtic Australia turns out to hate them almost as much as it hates us.

  5. Louis Hissink

    The puzzle I see is that Israel is basically a socialist state, and yet most of the socialists in the ALP are opposed to it, as Cohen relates. What’s the defining difference between the pro and anti semite factions, then?

  6. Dan

    James you idiot maybe you should either meet some Jewish people or find some new friends because your post is nonsense. As is quite common most of my friends are not Jewish, my workplace is not Jewish and most of my Jewish friends have either married or partnered with non-Jews. Its not no 1860 where the Melbourne club defined what our society is about.

  7. Dan

    The puzzle I see is that Israel is basically a socialist state,

    It’s not 1952 either. Israel is very much a capitalist entrepreneurial
    country.

  8. Kind of ironic that the left they counted on to weaken Anglo-Celtic Australia turns out to hate them almost as much as it hates us.

    I don’t use the f-word lightly, but I’m going to use it now.

    Fuck off, james, you pathetic anti-Semite.

    I hate Illinois Nazis.

  9. whyisitso

    Agree with Philippa, totally. I vehemently disagree with Cohen’s view on Goodes, not the former’s Jewish heritage.

  10. JC

    Are the pommie shop stewards that came here in the 70s part of the Anglo culture you’re peddling James , you antisemitic twerp.

  11. Ant

    There are examples non-Anglos having the feeling of “outsiders looking in”, IMHO.

    I doubt that’s a product of being Jewish, though.

    I worked in an office where one of the directors, who is Jewish, called me a ‘wog’ to my face and insinuated similar sentiments at various times; usually half jokingly, but he made it pretty clear he had little but contempt for me because of my (Italian) heritage and nothing else.

    This didn’t worry me too much because he was a hyper-emotional pathetic basketcase with anger management issues that was guaranteed to make his life a self inflicted misery until the day he drops dead. Too bad.

    Growing up in the 60s and 70s and going to school in regional Victoria, I copped the same pretty much daily – never being allowed to forget that I was an outsider.

    I still pity those who did this, for both their ignorance and their stupidity.

    As for Jewish Australians in general, and Jewish people worldwide in general, I have much admiration. Sometimes I wonder what kind of world this would be without their uncanny brilliance in so many fields.

  12. C.L.

    He claims: “some oaf uttered some crude, insensitive racist remarks”.

    No, Barry. She called him an ape because he looks like one.

    Simple as that.

    People call Chris Christie a blimp for the same reason.

  13. calli

    Well done, Philippa! A red letter day and a blue language day…or is that ‘Blues’ . R.e.s.p.e.c.t! :)

  14. Dan

    Blaming Jews for Barry Cohen is like blaming Gentiles for Kevin Rudd. Ant, all Ashkenasi Jews descend from four Jewish women in Italy, so don’t worry, he was just a self-hating Italian.

  15. james

    James you idiot maybe you should either meet some Jewish people or find some new friends

    I know quite a few. Some through study and a couple through work.

    Fuck off, james, you pathetic anti-Semite.

    Hi Philippa!

    No anti-semite here. The Jewish community in Australia in general and Melbourne in particular has made giant contributions to building Australia as a country.

    One of my personal heroes is this guy.

    Not to mention the contributions of the almost uncountable leaders of industry, commerce, medicine and law.

    This Guy is the reason we have the A-League

    This Guy Is one of our greatest ever businessmen

    This Guy and This family and This family are the reason the AFL is as solvent and vibrant as it is.

    I simply note that from my own experiences I find it incongruous that a group that has made such an amazingly disproportionate contribution to Australia [0.3 % of the population] and has almost always been welcomed here [with one shameful exception] seems to consider themselves perpetual outsiders viewing the mainstream with suspicion.

    Apologies for the offence obviously caused, this is a touchy subject, but to conflate any criticism of the attitudes of a particular community with a wish to see that community exterminated is kinda overreacting.

  16. Agree with Philippa, totally. I vehemently disagree with Cohen’s view on Goodes, not the former’s Jewish heritage.

    Thank you, Professor – nice to see you again after all these years.

  17. egg_

    “some oaf child uttered some crude, insensitive racist remarks”.

    Fixed.
    Grow up/wake up, Cohen.

  18. JC

    And there I was thinking Cohen was referring to Eddie the Imbecile.

    Yea that’s right. The kid always seems to get plastered with the waaccist accusation, while everyone forgets Eddie referred to the hyper-sensitive oaf as king kong immediately after the kid made that remark.

  19. james

    Yea that’s right. The kid always seems to get plastered with the waaccist accusation, while everyone forgets Eddie referred to the hyper-sensitive oaf as king kong immediately after the kid made that remark.

    Worse than that.

    The rather dim 13 y.o from a rural single mother who had no idea [much like the rest of Australia] that calling a giant hairy massively muscled man an Ape was somehow worse than burning a cross on his front lawn was attacked by every newspaper, every television station and every radio broadcast as “The face of racism”.

    When a media personality with proven left wing credentials, ALP connections and known pull who not only joined in the dogpile on the defenceless girl but rushed down to the Swans rooms to grovel to Goodes minutes after the incident then makes jokes about Adam being an Ape the same media that smashed this little kid gives Eddie the imbecile a pass.

  20. Sinclair Davidson

    james – a cup of tea and a lie down would do you some good. You’re sailing very close to the wind.

  21. Jannie

    Well james you had that coming. I bet some of your best friends are Jews. As for Barry Cohen, he is old enough to know better. But I have always thought that maybe Jews like to be on all sides of an argument, as a bit of insurance, that at least some will be able to survive the next clerical/fascist/communist/islamist pogrom. Why else would they sit with the left, if not to keep a close watch on when the buggers go for the knives.

  22. tomix

    Extreme Socialists have been taking ownership of contentious issues forever

    Uranium mining/ nuclear power, Aboriginal land rights, illegal entry, fracking, Israel/Palestine,

    Whaling, the Environment Movement inventing Gay Marriage- and so on.

    IMO, the strategy seems to be to drive out reasonable people away from expressing an opinion.

    It’s worked very well. They’ll be working hard on taking over opposition to Newmans “bikie legislation”and making some interesting new friends at the moment.

  23. Alfonso

    There’s a little something to it…. various official Jewish organisations here want S18C retained just as their associates in Canada hysterically supported S13 that criminalised ‘causing offence’, now repealed.
    Not a good look.

  24. JC

    Well james you had that coming. I bet some of your best friends are Jews.

    Some of mine are. Once went from a Clinton supporter to the tea party.

  25. There’s a little something to it…. various official Jewish organisations here want S18C retained just as their associates in Canada hysterically supported S13 that criminalised ‘causing offence’, now repealed.
    Not a good look.

    Is it actual official organisations (plural), alfonso – or is it just individuals who claim (erroneously) to speak for all Jewish people in Australia?

  26. james

    james – a cup of tea and a lie down would do you some good. You’re sailing very close to the wind.

    On reflection, yup. Listening to the Jewish John Rothfield and the very not Jewish Rohan Connolly slag off Australia all week on my favourite radio station has me unusually cranky.

    Why the hell SEN allows so much leftie pontificating on a station where the listening demographic MUST lean right of centre is certainly beyond me.

    Like I said above, apologies for being offensive, at times I can be too blunt.

    My comment wan’t about some wacky conspiracy theory however much it may have looked like that, just personal experiences.

    Well james you had that coming

    Meh. Robust debate.

    I bet some of your best friends are Jews.

    Nope.

    Never met one I haven’t like though, particularly Israelis.

    But I have always thought that maybe Jews like to be on all sides of an argument, as a bit of insurance, that at least some will be able to survive the next clerical/fascist/communist/islamist pogrom.

    Interesting theory.

    I prefer to listen to the old quote from David Ben Gurion that where there are two Jews, there are three opinions.

  27. alfonso, further to my last:

    I find that the Executive Council of Australian Jewry is labouring under the misapprehension that the Abbott government wants to repeal the whole of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975. Their press release quite clearly expresses this misapprehension.

    It’s just section 18C of that Act that needs repealing, because it’s too easy for it to be used as a weapon to stifle any form of debate/criticism. This was clearly demonstrated in the Bolt case.

    Other than that, the only person talking about it that I can think of is Danny Meyerowitz-Katz.

  28. gabrianga

    If my memory serves me correctly whilst attending Big Bill Neidjie’s wake at Oenpelli I was speaking to Clyde Holding Barry and a couple of the Oenpelli residents

    Barry suggested to Holding that he had witnessed “hunting and gathering” by local Aborigines.

    The ever gullible Holding asked where ,to which Barry responded……at the Jabiru supermarket.

    No one took offence. Everyone laughed.

    Try that today and wait for the hue and outcry that follows

  29. james

    Is it actual official organisations (plural), alfonso – or is it just individuals who claim (erroneously) to speak for all Jewish people in Australia?

    As I said above Phillipa [and as I should have said in the first place] the Jewish community in Australia does cross a wide ideological spectrum.

    The representative bodies wanting to institute “Hate Crimes” laws to restrict free speech surely don’t represent the views of everyone in the Australian Jewish community.

    However not many people from that community seem eager to break ranks on the issue; even Andrew Bolt has voiced his frustration with people who are willing to support him in private but won’t speak out in public.

    Jewish people may have every reason to fear persecution given their communities sad history. That doesn’t excuse paranoia.

  30. Dan

    on] seems to consider themselves perpetual outsiders viewing the mainstream with suspicion.

    James if people like me aren’t the mainstream who the hell is? How EXACTLY do you think people like me don’t see themselves as the mainstream. Like I said, if some of your best friends really are Jewish you need to get out and make some less neurotic friends.

    If you don’t give a shit about offensive language etc you would hardly join up to some lobbying committee. They are self-selecting.

  31. Rabz

    Is it actual official organisations (plural), alfonso – or is it just individuals who claim (erroneously) to speak for all Jewish people in Australia?

    Quite so, Steyn, Levant and Shaidle had a few interesting things to say about the equivalent ‘Jewish Spokespeoples’ in Canuckistan.

  32. james

    Are the pommie shop stewards that came here in the 70s part of the Anglo culture you’re peddling James , you antisemitic twerp.

    Yes they are JC, much to our general detriment.

    My family is Irish, and the general vibe of Celtic “chip on the shoulder” bullshit is something I despise because it is something I have cast off personally.

  33. I am the Walrus, koo koo k'choo

    Soon after I told a Labor legend: “Anti-Semitism is now rampant in the Labor Party.” I expected a vigorous denial. His response confirmed my worst fear: “I know,” he said.

    Fer f***’s sake.

    Not this crap again.

    One more time, for the dumbies:

    ‘Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism’.

    They are two different things.

    NB I am strongly pro-Semitic and won’t tolerate any anti-Semitism.

  34. Pete of Perth

    I live in Menora. Each Saturday the locals walk to the synagogue to worship. Maybe I am influenced by culturally conceived stereo-types but as they walk by they have an aura of a willingness to do hard-work.

    Till recently we were one of four* “chinese” houses around a corner which our chinese neighbour dubbed the pork eating corner.

    * Now three as the engineer neighbour moved back to Adelaide given the choice of redundancy in Perth or move.

  35. coz

    http://www.jewishnews.net.au/gillard-to-receive-jerusalem-prize/32701

    FORMER Prime Minister Julia Gillard will be awarded the 2013 Jerusalem Prize, in recognition of her outstanding contribution to strengthening Australia’s connection with Israel…

  36. Jewish people may have every reason to fear persecution given their communities sad history. That doesn’t excuse paranoia.

    Actually it does, james.

    Read your sentence again.

  37. Pedro

    ‘Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism’

    Yep, you can be against, say, the occupation of the west bank and not be anti-semitic.

  38. james

    James if people like me aren’t the mainstream who the hell is?

    If you are signed up as an Aussie first and everything else second I don’t care if you are from the Punjab Dan.

    How EXACTLY do you think people like me don’t see themselves as the mainstream.

    Personal experience. Although interestingly I have always found Israelis to have less of a sense of aloofness. Could just be the people I have met.

    Like I said, if some of your best friends really are Jewish

    None of my best friends are Jewish [although I would not have any objection, will you be my friend Dan?]

    you need to get out and make some less neurotic friends.

    Never met a neurotic Israeli, they seem to have self confidence out the Wazzoo

  39. FORMER Prime Minister Julia Gillard will be awarded the 2013 Jerusalem Prize, in recognition of her outstanding contribution to strengthening Australia’s connection with Israel…

    The appointment of unelected career politician, professional anti-Israeli and millionaire Bob Carr as Foreign Minister was a masterstroke.

    However, she did spend a lot of time apologising for him afterwards, so perhaps that counts.

  40. .

    I simply note that from my own experiences I find it incongruous that a group that has made such an amazingly disproportionate contribution to Australia [0.3 % of the population] and has almost always been welcomed here [with one shameful exception] seems to consider themselves perpetual outsiders viewing the mainstream with suspicion.

    I can kind of see where you’re coming from but I think you’re paranoid.

  41. Pedro

    “Actually it does, james. ”

    Umm, no it doesn’t

    “Paranoia is an unfounded or exaggerated distrust of others, sometimes reaching delusional proportions. Paranoid individuals constantly suspect the motives of those around them, and believe that certain individuals, or people in general, are “out to get them.”"

  42. I am the Walrus, koo koo k'choo

    Thankyou Pedro.

    Onya Pete of Perth.

  43. coz

    Seems to me anti-Christian sentiments are more common in the Labor party than anti-Jewish. Maybe Mr Cohen should try being a Christian if he really wants to experience persecution. After all, there is no law giving Christians special protection, no Christian Defamation League to silence critics.

  44. Fisky

    The shorter Barry Cohen – “I really really wanted to fight racism so of course I was a natural fit with Artie Calwell’s Labor Party.”

  45. Rabz

    Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.

  46. JC

    Jewish people may have every reason to fear persecution given their communities sad history. That doesn’t excuse paranoia.

    Lol.. Really. For a couple of thousand years your religious/ethnic tribe has been rounded up and persecuted culminating in what is the worst, most humanly degrading mass slaughter humanity has known and you wouldn’t be just a little paranoid?

    I can fully understand Jewish people’s concern with not forbidding anti-Semitic speech as they’re deeply worried about where it may lead. I strongly disagree with them, but I appreciate where they are coming from.

    Their concern is misplaced as the only “free speech” most totalitarians seem to approve of is that which attacks Jews. The Australian hard left is a good example along with the Iranian regime and the Taliban.

    Jews need to understand there are enough of us that would go all out for them 24/7 if necessary.

  47. james

    Actually it does, james.

    Read your sentence again.

    So in your view

    typical Jewish paranoia

    As Barry Cohen puts it is justified here?

    Phillipa there is no history of anti-Semitism in Australia, no conspiracy theorists beyond a few sad nutcases circulating outdated tatty pamphlets, ignored by everyone.

    There has never been a pogrom here, never been the slightest chance of one. Every act of anti-Jewish violence ever recorded going back to federation has been denounced by all sides of politics. The Jewish community has been a part of Australia since the first fleet and slight snobbishness aside has never been significantly excluded.

    Arguably there is less of a history of anti-Semitism in Australia than of anti-Catholicism.

    If Australia is a place where Jewish people cannot feel relatively safe without paranoia where on earth outside of Israel can they feel safe? Paranoia directed against such a welcoming majority community is kind of insulting.

    Australia [until recently] was also one of the very few countries outside the US to sometimes [not often enough] stand with Israel at the UN and risk the wrath of hate filled Arabs, can we at least get a little credit?

  48. james

    .

    I can kind of see where you’re coming from but I think you’re paranoid.

    Yeah I never claimed an excessive level of mental stability.

  49. .

    What does Barry Cohen think of the fact that the ALP was the main supporter of the White Australia Policy?

  50. Jannie

    Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.

    Damn Rabz, you beat me to it.

  51. JC

    I simply note that from my own experiences I find it incongruous that a group that has made such an amazingly disproportionate contribution to Australia [0.3 % of the population] and has almost always been welcomed here [with one shameful exception] seems to consider themselves perpetual outsiders viewing the mainstream with suspicion.

    They weren’t welcomed here as much as you think. You misunderstand where they are coming from. Jews do and should have a heightened sense of being outsiders considering what has happened to them over oceans of time. There is nothing sinister in this at all. Forget what happened ever a few decades ago look at what’s happening right now.

    Look at what Plibersek has said about Israel. Look at the left’s attacks on those chocolate shops, look at what the left say about the Jews. That’s a damned good reason to have you antenna up.

  52. JC

    If Australia is a place where Jewish people cannot feel relatively safe without paranoia where on earth outside of Israel can they feel safe? Paranoia directed against such a welcoming majority community is kind of insulting.

    It takes a long, long time for people to forget their grandparents were attacked with meat axes in Russian progroms or poisoned in gas chambers in Germany.

  53. coz

    JC Lol.. Really. For a couple of thousand years your religious/ethnic tribe has been rounded up and persecuted culminating in what is the worst, most humanly degrading mass slaughter humanity has known and you wouldn’t be just a little paranoid?

    Did you know there was a Christian holocaust in Russia JC?

  54. james

    Look at what Plibersek has said about Israel. Look at the left’s attacks on those chocolate shops, look at what the left say about the Jews. That’s a damned good reason to have you antenna up.

    Is it a rational response to left wing anti-Semitism to try and keep laws aimed almost exclusively at conservatives?

    Compared to almost anywhere else on earth? There are 1000 Jews in the whole of Thailand and they probably have faced more hate than the community here.

    There is a reason so many holocaust survivors settled in Melbourne and Sydney, this is a country built by Jews since the beginning, we don’t have the same historical baggage and it is insulting to be treated as though we do.

  55. Hubert East

    I have never been able to read Barry Cohen. He always bends over backwards to seem a good bloke at the start, but upon reading through he comes out as a simpleton.
    Also, I wish he wouldn’t be such a simpering wimp about Adam Goodes. That bloke is just a vicious bully.

  56. james

    It takes a long, long time for people to forget their grandparents were attacked with meat axes in Russian progroms or poisoned in gas chambers in Germany.

    That would be two countries that are not Australia with very different histories to Australia, one of which Australia spent blood and treasure bringing down?

    Like I said, unless for some reason you see gentiles as a single mass of potentially violent beasts just waiting for the seductive sirens call of a demagogue to stir them into burning a synagogue there is no reason for such paranoia in Australia.

    The fact that a genuinely decent man such as Michael Danby [regardless of his politics] felt himself unable to support Andrew Bolt publicly in his free speech trial says volumes.

  57. Pedro

    “There is a reason so many holocaust survivors settled in Melbourne and Sydney,”

    Yeah, they couldn’t get into Canada or the US and didn’t want to live in Israel.

  58. JC

    No it’s not rational, but you need to stop looking at Jews as a monolithic group and see them as individuals. There are people of a Jewish background who support those laws purely because are leftwing douchebags. The former federal AG springs to mind. There are others of a Jewish background who would be against those laws like say Josh Frydenberg.

  59. whyisitso

    ‘Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism’.

    The left tries to disguise its anti-semitism by hiding it behind the term “anto-zionism”. It’s transparent that they hate Jews.

  60. whyisitso

    Oops my italic and regular got reversed!

  61. JC

    The fact that a genuinely decent man such as Michael Danby [regardless of his politics] felt himself unable to support Andrew Bolt publicly in his free speech trial says volumes.

    Whats so freaking decent about Danby? He’s a leftwing douchebag and a member of the Liars party. His Jewishness has no relevance. As a leftwinger he would have been doing cartwheels Bolt took a hit.

  62. Pedro

    “Look at what Plibersek has said about Israel. Look at the left’s attacks on those chocolate shops, look at what the left say about the Jews.”

    Most of that looks like anti-zionism. I can understand that jews might be worried that antizionism is a smokescreen for underlying antisemitism, but I honestly don’t believe that Plibers or the rest of her gang are antisemitic. In my experience there are very few antisemites around in Oz. Other than the mad muslims and neo-nazis there might only be a few christian fundamentalists who hate jews for being jews.

  63. Pedro

    “The left tries to disguise its anti-semitism by hiding it behind the term “anto-zionism”. It’s transparent that they hate Jews.”

    I think that’s largely crap.

  64. Sinclair Davidson

    Yep, you can be against, say, the occupation of the west bank and not be anti-semitic.

    In theory yes. But what does that mean in the practice? People who claim that Israeli “settlements” in the West Bank are illegal are anti-semites. What they’re saying is that Jews can’t live in particular places because they are Jewish.

    When the Free State province in South Africa decreed that no individuals of Asian descent (Indians and Chinese) could own property during the Apartheid era nobody had any difficulty in recognising that as racial discrimination.

  65. tomix

    Barry Cohen may need to get out and about in the ALP more.

    Was recently told by a local ALP talker- upper that Campbell Newman is a secret jew

    and that Qld Gov’t asset sales will benefit his Melbourne jewish backers.

  66. JC

    Nonsense Pedro. They are always holding Israel and Jews to a higher different standard. That’s Jew hating in my book.

    James is doing it here too, perhaps not even aware of it. James is basically holding Jews to a much higher standard than he would say someone of Italian background.

    He just said, look at Danby the Jew, supporting those laws. How about look at Albanese the Italian supporting those laws. Or look at that prick Xylophone the Greek, supporting restrictive speech laws. For that matter he never said, look at the appalling redneck skunk, Shane Wand in favour of those laws.

  67. james

    No it’s not rational

    So we should be encouraging irrationality?

    There are people of a Jewish background who support those laws purely because are leftwing douchebag

    Oh ya. And our former AG springs to mind automatically whenever the word “Douchebag” is used.

    There are others of a Jewish background who would be against those laws like say Josh Frydenberg

    Did Josh speak out about it? I admire the man but I really can’t remember him doing so.

    From Monash to Lowy Australian Jews have a glorious history in this country. If they have been here for over 200 years peacefully and so many of them still can’t trust us I would presume to suggest the problem does not lie with us.

    but you need to stop looking at Jews as a monolithic group and see them as individuals.

    You are right they are individuals.

    And I hope when it comes time for the repeal of 18C some of those individuals speak up and not let their community be used as a club by the leftists who secretly [and sometimes not so secretly] despise them.

  68. JC

    Did Josh speak out about it? I admire the man but I really can’t remember him doing so.

    I think he did actually on Q&A one time he appeared. Also I honestly wouldn’t think there would be any space between what Josh and Brandis think.

    But why are you so concerned with what Josh thinks simply bcause he’s jewish? Why do you care about the ethnic background of support.

  69. james

    Whats so freaking decent about Danby? He’s a leftwing douchebag and a member of the Liars party.

    He is but I admire his willingness to call out anti-Semitism on the left. Unlike Cohen he was willing to do so BEFORE the election.

    He just said, look at Danby the Jew, supporting those laws. How about look at Albanese the Italian supporting those laws. Or look at that prick Xylophone the Greek, supporting restrictive speech laws. For that matter he never said, look at the appalling redneck skunk, Shane Wand in favour of those laws.

    OK then JC, fuck all them too!

    But Italians, Greeks and rednecks are very rarely used as the reason such laws exist.

    It always seems to be

    “We have to restrict free speech or the nazis will come back and throw jews in gas chambers”

    never

    “We have to restrict free speech or Turks will wipe out Greeks

    .

    The added moral authority does mean added responsibility, whether fair or not.

  70. Sinclair Davidson

    JC – to be fair, I’m always suspicious of people who support big government programs and suppression of freedom, especially Jews – after all the Holocaust itself was a big government program.

  71. JC

    So we should be encouraging irrationality?

    You don’t encourage it, but you certainly expect it from humans. 50% of the population is female, so don’t overdo it on the rationality expectation as you’ll be sorely disappointed in life. :-)

  72. coz

    To what extent is an allegation of anti-semitism a demand that people bow down and worship the Jews? A demand that one doffs one’s cap or tugs ones forelock at one’s superiors?

  73. james

    You don’t encourage it, but you certainly expect it from humans. 50% of the population is female, so don’t overdo it on the rationality expectation as you’ll be sorely disappointed in life.

    All is forgiven JC, I think I love you now.

    I think he did actually on Q&A one time he appeared.

    Good for him.

    It might not seem like it but I hold a great deal of sympathy for those willing to break ranks with their community over principle.

    I don’t get invited to a lot of family gatherings these days because I refuse to still complain about Oliver Cromwell and the English all being bastards despite my family all being Aussie born for at least the last 80 years or so.

    It is hard to stand by ones principles. Having a chip on your shoulder can be very comforting. It can help you though hard times.

    But ultimately a man needs to stand on his own two feet, and if Josh did that kudos to him.

  74. Riverina Matt

    One more time, for the dumbies:

    ‘Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism’.

    They are two different things.

    Funny how most “Anti-Zionists” are opposed the existence of only one nation-state out of 220-odd and that just by co-incidence happens to be the only Jewish-majority one.

    My observation – 99% of the time “Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism”

  75. Sinclair Davidson

    Riverina Matt – that probability is too low. 99.999999999999%

  76. Riverina Matt

    To what extent is an allegation of anti-semitism a demand that people bow down and worship the Jews? A demand that one doffs one’s cap or tugs ones forelock at one’s superiors?

    Careful, the joooos will turn you into matzos …

  77. Gab

    “Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism”

    No, no boycotting Israel is not anti-semitic, oh no.

    Anti-Zionism is the new anti-semitism and thousands of anti-Israel UN resolutions support that.

  78. Fisky

    Funny how most “Anti-Zionists” are opposed the existence of only one nation-state out of 220-odd and that just by co-incidence happens to be the only Jewish-majority one.

    You can zero in even further – funny how out of every country in the Middle East, the only one that must dissolve itself on human rights grounds is Israel. It should be a criminal offence to advocate Israel’s destruction, without calling for Iran’s destruction in the same breath.

  79. james

    Funny how most “Anti-Zionists” are opposed the existence of only one nation-state out of 220-odd and that just by co-incidence happens to be the only Jewish-majority one.

    Matt they cover up by exalting any Jewish person willing to denounce Israel like Antony lowenstien, Chomsky etc.

    They then point to such people and scream…

    look we love Jews! we just hate Israel!

    TBH I think they hate Israel because of Cold War hangover factors plus the fact that Ashkenazis are considered just too damn white skinned to have a country of their own [despite not even being a majority].

    This feeds into old style Jew hate but is not entirely a product of it.

  80. Pedro

    “People who claim that Israeli “settlements” in the West Bank are illegal are anti-semites. What they’re saying is that Jews can’t live in particular places because they are Jewish. ”

    No, they are saying that those settlers are illegal immigrants trying to take over neighbouring territory.
    Did we want to kick the Argies out of the Falklands, or the Indos out of East Timor because of their race or religion or because they were invaders?

  81. coz

    Catallaxy, the Home of Hasbara.

  82. Pedro

    I think there is a big difference between saying Israel should not exist and saying Israel should not occupy bits of its neighbours. Outside of the middle east, the second position seems to be by far the most common.

    Leaving aside the merits of the arguments for and against the settlements, only a dummy would not understand that the settlements program is a very bad look and it is understandable that plenty of non-jew-hating people will be against it.

    The settlements program is not alone in the world, free-tibet anyone, and I think that people who crap on about Israel and are not equally noisy about China are hypocrites. But I still think that the large majority of Australians against the settlements and boycotting Israeli owned chockie shops are not doing so because they hate jews for their religion or imagined racial characteristics.

    Hating nationalist policies of a modern country is not the same as hating hooked nosed money lenders and jesus killers.

  83. Pedro

    “It should be a criminal offence to advocate Israel’s destruction, without calling for Iran’s destruction in the same breath.”

    Still bone-picking with free speech fisky? ;-)

  84. james

    Hating nationalist policies of a modern country is not the same as hating hooked nosed money lenders and jesus killers.

    Hey as long as they keep us out of it I don’t give a damn what Israel does to the Arabs.

    The settlements program is not alone in the world, free-tibet anyone, and I think that people who crap on about Israel and are not equally noisy about China are hypocrites.

    Yeah but those who disagree with you would say that there is a reason why there are marches all over Australia about Israel, but none about the settlement policy in China.

  85. Fisky

    I think there is a big difference between saying Israel should not exist and saying Israel should not occupy bits of its neighbours.

    The entire anti-Israel movement supports the “right of return”, a policy designed to dissolve Israel. None of the protestors out there genuinely support Israel’s existence.

  86. james

    Catallaxy, the Home of Hasbara.

    Phillipa! Come back!

    An ACTUAL Nazi is here.

    Waiting for my apology.

  87. Sinclair Davidson

    Did we want to kick the Argies out of the Falklands, or the Indos out of East Timor because of their race or religion or because they were invaders?

    But would we stop an Argentinian or Indonesian from living in the Falklands or East Timor simply because they were Argentinian or Indonesian?

    That is what the “illegal settlement” people are wanting to do.

  88. Pedro

    “Yeah but those who disagree with you would say that there is a reason why there are marches all over Australia about Israel, but none about the settlement policy in China.”

    Leaving aside that there isn’t “non” about tibet, the reason is lefty fashion and not old-fashioned jew-hating.

    “But would we stop an Argentinian or Indonesian from living in the Falklands or East Timor simply because they were Argentinian or Indonesian?”

    No, but that’s not the comparison and you’re being obtuse. The settlements are an Israeli govt program. If SBY was rounding up the sris and afgans and shipping them to christmas island with naval protection then we probably would have a new konfrontasi because I’d hope Abbott would order the navy to open fire.

  89. Jannie

    There’s nothing wrong with a bit of Hasbara james. (Its not every day I learn a new word).

    Its probably not a good idea to be demanding an apology, even if in jest. You stepped into it and were firmly but still gently treated, your explanations are a tad too sincere. Quit while you are only a couple of lengths behind. There is always tomorrow.

  90. Pedro

    It’s really crazy to think that plibers and dr bob and even rank old lee rhiannon are running around waiving the protocols and worrying about the world jewish conspiracy to steal and eat our babies.

  91. Fisky

    Leaving aside that there isn’t “non” about tibet, the reason is lefty fashion and not old-fashioned jew-hating.

    It doesn’t matter what their intentions are, the policies they advocate are anti-semitic. Anyone who denies the same rights to Jews as they allow to others is supporting an anti-semitic policy. And, don’t forget that the Left have been giving a pass to extreme right-wing hate preachers in the Islamic community for some time now. This is documented at length here:

    http://hurryupharry.org/

  92. james

    Its probably not a good idea to be demanding an apology, even if in jest.

    It is always a good idea to demand an apology in jest. Much better than doing so in sincerity.

    your explanations are a tad too sincere.

    As opposed to shallow and insincere?

  93. james

    It doesn’t matter what their intentions are, the policies they advocate are anti-semitic.

    This is true, but it is important to note that most lefties don’t think that it is.

    They simply believe what they are told to believe, and hate what they are told to hate.

  94. coz

    Seems ludicrous to accuse the red-greens of being anti-Jewish given that socialism came out of Marx and Engels.

    I think Mr Cohen’s real complaint is that the Labor party is not obsequious enough.

  95. Riverina Matt

    t’s really crazy to think that plibers and dr bob and even rank old lee rhiannon are running around waiving the protocols and worrying about the world jewish conspiracy to steal and eat our babies.

    They might not be into mad conspiracies around the Protocols etc. but I do believe most of the Jew-hating left do sincerely believe in a some form of insidious Jewish influence in world affairs.

  96. coz

    ^ yes, it’s called ‘Marxism’.

  97. egg_

    I have never been able to read Barry Cohen. He always bends over backwards to seem a good bloke at the start, but upon reading through he comes out as a simpleton.
    Also, I wish he wouldn’t be such a simpering wimp about Adam Goodes. That bloke is just a vicious bully.

    As if the kid wasn’t a prop for Goodes’ political ends – ‘Australian of the Year’, my butt.

  98. .

    coz
    #1170846, posted on January 29, 2014 at 3:29 pm
    Seems ludicrous to accuse the red-greens of being anti-Jewish given that socialism came out of Marx and Engels.

    Pretty sure there were plenty of crypto communists and proto socialists before them, or the idea was developed independently otherwise.

  99. Seems ludicrous to accuse the red-greens of being anti-Jewish given that socialism came out of Marx and Engels.

    Marx was nominally and legally a Christian. His father converted to escape a pogrom. However, his mother didn’t, so that makes him a ‘real’ Jew, as Judaism descends to children via the mother.

    Engels came from evangelical Christian stock.

  100. Dan

    Coz, Engels wasn’t Jewish.

    To what extent is an allegation of anti-semitism a demand that people bow down and worship the Jews? A demand that one doffs one’s cap or tugs ones forelock at one’s superiors?

    I thought it was the Jews who were being accused of paranoia here. Actually I just run a medical practice catering to all comers, paupers and millionaires. Too busy to go door-to-door convincing non-Jews of my racial superiority. Are you OK coz? Are you hearing voices? Just watch out…lots of Jewish psychiatrists out there.

  101. coz

    So you agree with me? I’ve read different reasons why Marx snr converted, it’s often a means to an end, not a sincere conversion.

  102. Coz, the local library called. They want their copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion back.

  103. coz

    sorry address typo in my earlier reply, this may appear twice

    So you agree with me? I’ve read different reasons why Marx snr converted, it’s often a means to an end, not a sincere conversion.

  104. Dan

    Pretty sure there were plenty of crypto communists and proto socialists before them, or the idea was developed independently otherwise.

    Goes way back. I would blame Saint-Simon the most though.

  105. coz

    I know Engels wasn’t Jewish but they’re treated as a single entity politically. Marx and many of the bolsheviks were Jewish, hence the intrinsically anti-Christian nature of marxism/communism.

  106. Dan

    I would love to understand the significance of an atheist Jew converting and becoming an atheist Christian.

  107. Abu Chowdah

    It strikes me that anti-Catholic memes and tropes are more prevalent in the Australian media at present.

  108. Tardell G

    Leon Trotsky, born Lev Davidovich Bronshtein.

  109. coz

    I would love to understand the significance of an atheist Jew converting and becoming an atheist Christian.

    It’s called convenience, an end justifies a means.

  110. Yes yes yes, coz, we can all read Wikipedia.

    But where is your actual evidence? I accept that you have invested a lot of belief in this particular conspiracy theory, but your facts have so far been wrong, and that doesn’t give me a lot of confidence in your future defence of your own pet paranoia.

  111. Dan

    It’s called convenience, an end justifies a means.

    I understand that. I just find the idea amusing.

  112. coz

    Is that what they taught you in the Hasbara manual, Phillipa?

  113. tomix

    According to Robert Wilton, Russian correspondent of “The Times”, in a book published in 1920, 9 of the 12 members of the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party were jews.

    The other 3 were Lenin, Krylenko and Lounatcharski.

  114. Dan

    Were Von Mises, Milton Friedman, and Rothbard double agents or it is possible various Jews are very active in different philosophical schools?

  115. Dan

    I’m not surprised about the Bolsheviks given what happened to the Jews under Tsarist rule. Exactly what happened to Von Mises but in reverse.

  116. coz

    Well I think I’m making the point that marxism/communism is intrinsically anti-Christian. I couldn’t comment on the level of anti-Christian sentiment among economists. Perhaps you or one of the other economists here could enlighten me.

  117. I am the Walrus, koo koo k'choo

    My observation – 99% of the time “Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism”

    That maybe (and I don’t agree with you).

    But it’s no reason to confuse or equate the two.

    Because equating the two would mean calling me and other decent people anti-Semites. And I really don’t want that to happen!

  118. Is that what they taught you in the Hasbara manual, Phillipa?

    At last! My efforts to be denounce as a highly-paid shill for Big Something have paid off!

    I didn’t quite expect it to be Big Israel, but hey, azoy tsebrecht zich dos kichel.

  119. Dan

    Communism is also anti-Jewish so if your point is that Jews invented Communism to attack Christians you have definitely lost me.

  120. Well I think I’m making the point that marxism/communism is intrinsically anti-Christian.

    Yes, you’ve gotten that right.

    It’s completely irrelevant to your earlier points, but 10/10 for getting something correct, at least.

    That’s because it’s atheistic. Not because it’s Jewish.

    You can be a Jewish-background atheist and a raging communist. You can be an atheist son of a preacher man and also be a raging communist. You can be a child of emigres, or a privileged WASP, or a very silly university student from Gambia, and be a raging communist.

    Communism is an equal-opportunity employer. All it takes is sufficient hatred and envy of others, and you’re off and racing.

  121. brc

    A lot of anti-semitism was fanned because of the rothschilds in the time of Marx and Engels. There was already rampant anti-semitism about, the Rothschild dad was born and raised the Rothschild sons in the Frankfurt Jewish ghetto. Then they busted out and took over the world, both with wealth and power unheard of in today’s world. This the anti-semitism in Germany had a major target, and became untwined with anti-capitlism. Marx did his mooching and complaining in a world wih this backdrop. Communism predates Marx by a long time, but Marx did come out with the unique notion that capitalist collapse was inevitable, which was somewhat of a Usp.

    As for why the Greens are against Jews these days, who knows. It can’t be the plight of the Palestinians- there are displaced and marginalized people’s the world over, and they certainly don’t seem too concerned by the repression of entire countries by the USSR. I doubt the average green can even explain why they share the same platforms as national socialists – living space, apartheid, centrally planned industries based on handouts and patronage. They just fall into these patterns through a desire for more power and less market derived creative destruction.

  122. C.L.

    Um, James is right that Jewish groups have played doggo on free speech.

    They ALWAYS back Labor, Labour and Democrats.

    Always.

    James Baker’s famous retort to the Jewish lobby in the US was justified.

    Moreover, I’ll always have a problem with Israel while the Yad Vashem runs displays calling Pius XII a Nazi sympathiser. This is a putrid lie.

  123. Louis Hissink

    Shlomo Sand’s book “The Invention of the Jewish People”, might be useful to study. Sand is Professor of History at Tel Aviv University. Available on Kindle for those of limited means.

  124. Moreover, I’ll always have a problem with Israel while the Yad Vashem runs displays calling Pius XII a Nazi sympathiser. This is a putrid lie.

    A very recent lie, though – and a product of leftist infestation, rather than the other way round.

    The State of Israel was profoundly and publicly grateful to Pius XII in its early years.

  125. JC

    JC – to be fair, I’m always suspicious of people who support big government programs and suppression of freedom, especially Jews – after all the Holocaust itself was a big government program.

    Yep. how could the holocaust have occurred if there wasn’t big government.

  126. .

    Dan – I was going to mention Saint Simon.

    Abu Chowdah
    #1170891, posted on January 29, 2014 at 4:08 pm
    It strikes me that anti-Catholic memes and tropes are more prevalent in the Australian media at present.

    CAMPION!

  127. .

    As for why the Greens are against Jews these days

    They’re idiots fighting a proxy war against the US for a state which has ceased to exist.

    Morons.

  128. JC

    Are you OK coz? Are you hearing voices? Just watch out…lots of Jewish psychiatrists out there.

    Coz hits the gin bottle around lunch time and doesn’t stop nursing it until 10pm in the evening. Her most lucid time is the morning getting over the hangover.

  129. C.L.

    The State of Israel was profoundly and publicly grateful to Pius XII in its early years.

    Then it decided to obey the KGB-invented myth to stay chummy with the Western left.

    So that was fucking brave of them.

  130. Pedro

    “Well I think I’m making the point that marxism/communism is intrinsically anti-Christian.
    Yes, you’ve gotten that right. ”
    No he didn’t, this would be right:

    “Well I think I’m making the point that marxism/communism is marxists/communists are intrinsically anti-Christian.

  131. No Pedro, he was right the first time.

    Marxism and communism are atheistic and materialist in their philosophical basis. Christianity isn’t. Both Marxism and communism were and are violently opposed to organised religion of any kind, except when they need it to further their ends.

    I know there are plenty of misguided Christians who think you can be both a Marxist and a Christian, but actually you can’t. One of the two will be compromised, and it’s usually the Christianity.

  132. .

    pedro

    There is nothing in the Catholic diocese that I live in which resembles communism, other than a lot of Catholics traditionally and culturally voting left – but this trend has been fading into history lately.

  133. coz

    Are you OK coz? Are you hearing voices? Just watch out…lots of Jewish psychiatrists out there.

    Coz hits the gin bottle around lunch time and doesn’t stop nursing it until 10pm in the evening. Her most lucid time is the morning getting over the hangover.

    I think that’s 5 or 6 personal attacks so far from various posters, yet I’ve made none, not being a shill, I don’t need to resort to the ‘just throw mud at em’ stuff.

    You didn’t answer my question about the Christian holocaust in Russia, JC, why was that?

  134. JC

    You didn’t answer my question about the Christian holocaust in Russia, JC, why was that?

    Perhaps because I don’t know of one, Coz. Outside of disparate groups the big majority of the population in Russia was Russian orthodox, so I can’t see who they were killing to make it a christian holocaust.

  135. Then it decided to obey the KGB-invented myth to stay chummy with the Western left.

    So that was fucking brave of them.

    I don’t recollect seeing any official Israeli government media releases on the subject of Pius XII, or any policy decisions. If they exist, I’d be very glad to see links.

    Yad Vashem is one museum. It’s an important one, but it’s one museum.

    There are still plenty of museums across the UK with erroneous anti-Catholic sentiments and bias in their display boards next to items dating from the pre-Reformation era. I don’t take that as evidence that the various British governments are deeply inimical to Catholicism and wish to slander it at all opportunities, and are in fact part of a vast international conspiracy against Catholicism.

    What it tells me is that the people who wrote the display boards haven’t read The Stripping of the Altars, and are happier with the received wisdom of 1066 And All That. It’s ignorance rather than malice.

  136. coz

    Perhaps because I don’t know of one, Coz. Outside of disparate groups the big majority of the population in Russia was Russian orthodox, so I can’t see who they were killing to make it a christian holocaust.

    ye-es, JC, here’s a hint – Russian Orthodox is Christian.

  137. I think that’s 5 or 6 personal attacks so far from various posters, yet I’ve made none, not being a shill, I don’t need to resort to the ‘just throw mud at em’ stuff.

    Roll the tape, once more:

    coz
    #1170821, posted on January 29, 2014 at 3:02 pm
    Catallaxy, the Home of Hasbara.

    coz
    #1170902, posted on January 29, 2014 at 4:14 pm
    Is that what they taught you in the Hasbara manual, Phillipa?

    coz
    #1170921, posted on January 29, 2014 at 4:31 pm
    The lost tribe of Dan.

    Not much evidence of actual argument there, but plenty of ad hominem argument – or, if you prefer, ‘just throw mud at ‘em’.

  138. coz

    I beg your pardon, madam, but Hasbara is a real phenomenon, not a fiction, and not a slander, it is a truth.

    The lost tribe of Dan ref was a joke, you may not have found it amusing.

    Now to be fair, go back and list the number of times you’ve personally attacked me.

  139. JC

    Coz

    Go to bed. You’re being a real pest. Sleep it off

  140. rebel with cause

    No, but that’s not the comparison and you’re being obtuse. The settlements are an Israeli govt program. If SBY was rounding up the sris and afgans and shipping them to christmas island with naval protection then we probably would have a new konfrontasi because I’d hope Abbott would order the navy to open fire.

    This analogy is not correct either. The Afghans coming to Christmas island have no need for naval protection because Australians do not want to see them exterminated. In fact, Australians don’t generally have a problem with Afghan settlers at all, it is just preferred that they come through the official channels. Afghans who come through the official channels would be welcome to settle on Christmas Island.

    By contrast, Jewish settlers in the West Bank is only provocative to those that hate Jews.

  141. JC

    Afghans who come through the official channels would be welcome to settle on Christmas Island.

    Not if they’re going to draw welfare. I don’t give a rats if the population here bursts to 300 million. I don’t more people on the welfare tab.

  142. Paul

    “By contrast, Jewish settlers in the West Bank is only provocative to those that hate Jews.”

    Wow, it was all so simple, all these years?

    Koolaid anybody?

  143. coz

    JC why don’t you go to bed huh, sleep it off, there’s a good boy.

  144. Fisky

    I like the idea of an official boycott of the Anti-Defamation League or whichever organization was out there supporting the anti-Bolt laws. Disgraceful behaviour. The Federal Government must erect a cordon around their offices, paint over their signs, and force all the staff to wear yellow stars until they apologize for opposing free speech.

  145. Rebel with cause

    Prove me wrong Paul.

  146. JC

    It’s really crazy to think that plibers and dr bob and even rank old lee rhiannon are running around waiving the protocols and worrying about the world jewish conspiracy to steal and eat our babies.

    Ummm Rhiannon’s parents supported Stalin well after it was apparent he was conducting industrial sized killing. Rhiannon herself took money from the soviets according to various sources. Why would you doubt she hates jews or conspiracy theories about them?

  147. Fisky

    The USSR had an openly anti-semitic policy when Rhiannon was out there selling newspapers on their behalf. She is therefore an anti-semite by association, even if she does not profess open hatred of Jews herself. It is long overdue that this woman be locked up.

  148. .

    Fisk, your parody is opaque to outsiders. I imagine some people will misinterpret your comments.

  149. Now to be fair, go back and list the number of times you’ve personally attacked me.

    Asking you to provide evidence for your claims is not attacking you.

    In your world, it may be, but it’s not in the real world.

    In fact, I’m still waiting for a shred of evidence. None has so far been forthcoming.

  150. Fisky

    You should be shot for that, and a whole lot more!

  151. .

    Rebel with cause
    #1171000, posted on January 29, 2014 at 5:35 pm
    Prove me wrong Paul.

    I am for all of Israel’s military and foreign policy except for settlers – which is a waste of resources.

    That makes me anti semitic?

    Reb, I’m not even anti-Zionist – self determination is a right everyone is entitled to.

  152. .

    Quite frankly Fisk, keep the piano wire away from me. I will enjoy it too much.

  153. I am absolutely certain we’re only going to see more ad hominem one-liners from coz, and I have better things to do with my time.

    If anything interesting happens, Catsters, I’m sure you can let me know.

  154. Jannie

    Coz, there is nothing wrong with Hasbara, whats not to like?

    Whats this about the genocide of Christians in Russia? Sure the Leninists gave it a shot, but Stalin simply moved on to killing anybody and everybody pour encourager les autres. What genocide are you referring to?

  155. coz

    Fisk The USSR had an openly anti-semitic policy when Rhiannon was out there selling newspapers on their behalf. She is therefore an anti-semite by association, even if she does not profess open hatred of Jews herself. It is long overdue that this woman be locked up.

    What do you know of the USSR’s anti-Christian policy?

  156. Pedro

    “Rhiannon herself took money from the soviets according to various sources. Why would you doubt she hates jews or conspiracy theories about them?”

    Because I really don’t believe that even someone as crazy as that hag would be emotionally invested in the old fashioned jew hating. I reckon it would be pretty much only the neo-nazis, the mad muslims, crazy christians and some backwoods types of east of the Danube who’d still suck at that teat.

  157. coz

    I am absolutely certain we’re only going to see more ad hominem one-liners from coz, and I have better things to do with my time.

    well I’d struggle to reach your level in ad hominem attacks.

    If anything interesting happens, Catsters, I’m sure you can let me know.

    See something say something! All reports of dissent must be reported! This is your Kommandant speaking!

  158. Fisky

    What do you know of the USSR’s anti-Christian policy?

    In the early years it was horrendous. Stalin resurrected the church to some extent, because he wanted some kind of spiritual backing for the war effort. But yeah, under their initial “anti-national” policy, the majority religion was basically banned while Islam was still legal under Lenin. Left-wingers still fantasise about banning Christianity and making Islam an official religion.

  159. rebel with cause

    Dot – my point is that almost everyone that claims to be anti-Zionist but not anti-Semetic then almost immediately proceeds to conflate Jews with the state of Israel. You want to argue Israel should get out of the West Bank – fine; but I don’t hear too many people saying that Jews should be free to stay.

  160. Gab

    It’s very bizarre in here today with all these anti-semitics commenting.

  161. .

    rebel – settlement is different to the Saudi and Syrian controlled Hamas and Hezbollah being destroyed and Jews being free to live as Palestinian citizens or as their guests.

  162. Pedro

    Who are they Gab, let’s name and shame the jew-haters.

    Phillipa, economic leveling is consistent with lots of historic and current christian belief. But communists believe their imaginary god is just as jealous as that of the christians (and others) and so they are anti-religion.

  163. Riverina Matt

    Jews being free to live as Palestinian citizens or as their guests.

    Shouldn’t that be as citizens of Jordan and Egypt and their guests (you know, the countries whose land it was before 1967?)

  164. Pedro

    “You want to argue Israel should get out of the West Bank – fine; but I don’t hear too many people saying that Jews should be free to stay.”

    You mean stay in the settlements? What would you think if the Indos sent their army into the NT and set up a bunch of towns?

  165. Gab

    Your thin veil of anti-Zionism fools no one, Pedro but it has been amusing watching you anti-semitics do the dance of the seven veils today.

  166. Riverina Matt

    Who are they Gab, let’s name and shame the jew-haters.

    We could start with those who hold the only Jewish majority nation state to much different standards than any other. Also, those who believe that the only Jewish majority state is illegitimate. Those who believe that Jews have no right to a nation state of their own. Those who believe that there is a Jewish conspiracy against Christians. That would be a start.

  167. .

    No Pedro.

    Social justice is not a christian belief either – because Rerum Novarum never advocated socialism – just fairness. A priest came up with the idea – but his ideas have been twisted out of all proportion.

    The idea that the workers need fair compensation – would be helped if on costs were not so high – as would employment.

    An Australian worker can earn six figures if they are prepared to move.

    At most, it simply argued for welfare to ameliorate poverty and protect poor citizens from the ravages of civilian laws. Align this with the duty of the church and the better off and the role here is small.

    The idea that it specifically said we need “fair wages” mandated by government, or redistributionist economics is not true.

  168. Fisky

    A lot is being read into the Communist policy on religion. The first thing to remember is that Communist regimes in Europe almost never had majority support, so they had to divest traditional power centres of their influence and hold over the nation. This often meant cutting down the majority ethnic group/religion/nationality down to size in Party congresses (Yugoslavia was a good example of this), and propping up minority groups so as to create stronger constituencies away from the centre. “Anti-religion” or “anti-nationalism” was a pragmatic tilt depending on which groups were stronger in that particular area and therefore posed a greater “national” (i.e. trans-class) threat to Communist class hegemony.

    Stalin ditched this policy because while it might be an effective balancing act in normal times, it is not a good way to mobilise the population against an external threat – national or religious sentiments are far more potent in this case, so that’s why Stalin let the Orthodox Church out of the sin bin to some extent (so long as they support him – and that’s the same deal they have with Putin now). As some of Stalin’s main opponents within the party happened to be ethnic Jews, his attacks on them became something of a campaign against Jews more generally, although that didn’t stop him from supporting Israel’s independence as a pragmatic measure.

    Once you get a handle on Communist “national” policy – whereby some forms of nationalism are “reactionary” while others are “progressive”, it’s not difficult to understand why Lenin went after the Orthodox Church.

  169. .

    Gab you’re over egging the pudding. Pedro has been here for a long time and is no anti semite.

    Really, settlements – are a Zionist thing, not Jewish.

    To profess those who oppose settlers are anti semites is divisive and alienates Isralis and all other Jews.

    Many Jewish-Israeli members of the Knesset oppose settlers. The Knesset rejected a bill to legitimise settlements about 18 months ago.

  170. Riverina Matt

    You mean stay in the settlements? What would you think if the Indos sent their army into the NT and set up a bunch of towns?

    Hey Pedro – should the whitefellas bugger off and leave this place to the Aborigines? Didn’t the British just up and establish a bunch of towns in the NT (not to mention elsewhere{?

    Even if the worst case is assumed and Israel’s only right to the West Bank and Gaza is right of conquest, then it is no different that most of the other nation states in existence who owe their borders to someone conquering someone somewhere.

    Of course, when its the jooooos doing the conquering, well that’s different ….

  171. Gab

    People who claim that Israeli “settlements” in the West Bank are illegal are anti-semites. What they’re saying is that Jews can’t live in particular places because they are Jewish.

    I tend to agree with Sinclair on this. Sorry, Dot, I don’t care how long Pedro has commented here.

  172. Pedro

    “Your thin veil of anti-Zionism fools no one, Pedro but it has been amusing watching you anti-semitics do the dance of the seven veils today.”

    Sure length of time is irrelevant. But what have I said today that is even anti-zionist? If I’m critical of anything, it is the settlements policy which seems to be an obviously stupid thing to keep doing given the effect it has had.

    What I think if funny, and not a little ironic, is that some people think I’m antisemitic just because of the things I’ve posted in this thread. Frankly, I think that’s nuts and it speaks pretty loudly about the extent to which people are able to rationally cope with contrary views. It’s also exactly the same as calling AGW sceptics “deniers”. Group-think at work.

    “Hey Pedro – should the whitefellas bugger off and leave this place to the Aborigines? Didn’t the British just up and establish a bunch of towns in the NT (not to mention elsewhere{?

    Even if the worst case is assumed and Israel’s only right to the West Bank and Gaza is right of conquest, then it is no different that most of the other nation states in existence who owe their borders to someone conquering someone somewhere. ”

    I think that’s correct, and I’ve got some sympathy for the right of conquest argument. But that doesn’t mean I can’t understand that other people might have a different view without happening to be jew haters.

  173. coz

    I think people are forgetting that Jews are protected by anti-discrimination (ie fake) law, as are muslims, but clearly Christians are not entitled to the same privilege.

  174. coz

    All I’m promoting here is legal equality, one law for all that applies to everyone equally – differential legal status always ends up being a fake ‘God’ position in the ‘We cannot be mocked’ sense. Only God will not be mocked, not the jews, not the muslims, not the homos and not the christians. I reject these fake laws.

  175. Fisky

    I think people are forgetting that Jews are protected by anti-discrimination (ie fake) law, as are muslims, but clearly Christians are not entitled to the same privilege.

    These laws are the softer version of the USSR’s anti-national policies, based on similar motivations, which are to help neutralise the majority threat to the Leftist system. No, they are not a Jewish conspiracy.

  176. coz

    These laws are the softer version of the USSR’s anti-national policies, based on similar motivations, which are to help neutralise the majority threat to the Leftist system.

    I’m not sure what your saying there, not familiar with the ‘USSR’s anti-national policies’. Can you expand.

    No, they are not a Jewish conspiracy.

    I haven’t implied that they are a Jewish conspiracy – since the same legal privilege applies to muslims and homos, how is that a Jewish conspiracy?

  177. Fisky

    I already did explain the basis for Communist national policy a few posts up. If you can’t be bothered reading, then I’ll stop engaging.

  178. Abu Chowdah

    In theory yes. But what does that mean in the practice? People who claim that Israeli “settlements” in the West Bank are illegal are anti-semites. What they’re saying is that Jews can’t live in particular places because they are Jewish.

    I see the point you’re making and I think that a lot of the motivation/vehemence IS anti-Semitic, but isn’t the technical justification for their position that the land was occupied by others pre-1967? If that’s accepted then it would suggest anyone other than the previous occupants would be unwelcome.

  179. coz

    I already did explain the basis for Communist national policy a few posts up. If you can’t be bothered reading, then I’ll stop engaging.

    I wouldn’t describe your style of commenting as ‘engaging’, and I don’t think I’d be alone in that opinion, it’s more a bombastic style of dodge. Like how you dodged my second point there and the whole notion of legal equality.

  180. Gab

    Yes, yes I understand it now Pedro. You’re an anti-Zionist but not an anti-semitic :???:

  181. coz

    As I understand it the difference between zionism and observant Jewry is very significant. Latterly the zionists have adopted the belief that they themselves are their own messiah and do not need to look for one, which gives rise to the demand for laws that zionists will not be mocked, whereas observant Jews understand that it is only God who is entitled to that status.

  182. rebel with cause

    Pedro – I’m pretty sure that ‘different view’ boils down to: ‘Jews don’t belong in the West Bank because they are Israelis. I don’t like Israel. The reason I don’t like Israel is because it is run by the Jews’.

    Dot – Israelis that argue against the settlements usually do so from a pragmatic point of view: that it is best not to antagonise people that hate Jews. I don’t think they are really arguing that Palestinians have some sort of moral right to the territories.

  183. Rabz

    You’re an anti-Zionist but not an anti-semitic

    Yes, Gab, because no doubt the next trick up his sleeve will be the line:

    “But, but, arabs are semites, too!”

  184. coz

    deterritorialisation and reterritorialisation, thass what dey call it in po-mo.

  185. Fisky

    I wouldn’t describe your style of commenting as ‘engaging’, and I don’t think I’d be alone in that opinion, it’s more a bombastic style of dodge. Like how you dodged my second point there and the whole notion of legal equality.

    I never dodge legitimate discussions – in fact I explained precisely the basis for the national policies of the USSR and the pale imitation anti-discrimination laws in Australia and how they stem from a similar motivation. What more do you want, troll?

  186. Robbo

    I am always impressed by the bravery of politicians who are silent on a major issue while in Parliament but speak out vigorously after they have left. Of course they are not seeking further endorsement from their Party so what have they got to lose? Cohen was mute about anti-semitism in the Labor Party caucus when he was a Labor MP and would like us to believe that it has only reared its ugly head after he left Parliament. That is simply untrue. Despite all the pious statements and hand wringing from the Labor Party the reality is that if you want to have a good old-fashioned rave about Jews and blacks many MPs from Labor are just the people you need to meet. As in so many things they say one thing publicly but in private they hold firm views that are the complete opposite. Most of them, certainly not all, are bloody hypocrites.

  187. Fisky

    Cohen was also careful not to say anything that would blunt Labor’s election campaign – he held his fire till after. What a clown. He must be made to wear…..fuck it, I should probably stop now before this routine gets out of hand!

  188. The worst thing about coz is that s/he’s so very, very boring.

    I came back in the hope that something interesting had happened; eg. coz had produced, by a miracle, some actual evidence to support her odd one-liners.

    No such luck. Just more meta-analysis of how mean everyone else is being to her.

    [massive yawn]

    Back to the other fred, methinks. At least Numbers is amusing.

  189. Fisky

    The worst thing about coz is that s/he’s so very, very boring.

    Truly. What’s the point of being a troll if you put everyone in a coma??

  190. coz

    You can tell the clock-watchers here flippa. You should busy yourself with those other important things you had to do.

  191. coz

    By all means would all the shills take themselves off to those very important other duties/activities/threads that are far more deserving of their paid time.

  192. coz

    Why waste your important and valuable time talking to me? It’s ridiculous, there must be more gullible people you can sell your product to.

  193. Fisky

    You are a very boring troll for a Jew-hater. No self-respecting Nazi Party would ever employ you. Real Nazis want drama, excitement and spiffy uniforms, not feeling like they’ve injested five litres of tranquiliser. And your points have been thoroughly refuted, so be off now.

  194. Fisky

    sorry – ingest, not injest. Talking to Nazis is so mind-numbing that it’s disabled my mental spell-checker as well.

  195. dan

    Moreover, I’ll always have a problem with Israel while the Yad Vashem runs displays calling Pius XII a Nazi sympathiser. This is a putrid lie.

    Yes, that is a putrid lie, as you will be unable to provide us with any evidence that Yad Vashem runs such displays. The displays do state that he did not make unambiguous public protests (there were some cautious speeches), but specifically point out that this approach may have allowed local churches latitude to run rescue operations of their own, some of which are described. At no point it is suggested he was a Nazi, because that would be an utterly ridiculous statement.

  196. coz

    Put the bottle down, Fisk – move away from the fridge. Or make it more interesting.

  197. coz

    Am I to understand that anyone who doesn’t bow down and worship at the false messiah of the zionists as their own messiah, via the evil doctrine of dominionism is automatically a ‘nahzi’?

    I completely reject dominionism, christian dominionism, zionist dominionist, homo-dominionism and muslim dominionism.

    Dominionism is one of the central ‘wrongs’ of the world, whoever is spruiking it.

  198. Fisky

    Am I to understand that anyone who doesn’t bow down and worship at the false messiah of the zionists as their own messiah, via the evil doctrine of dominionism is automatically a ‘nahzi’?

    If that’s what you “understand” from your readings, then you really are overdue for a serious mental health appraisal. You don’t have to worship Zionists to avoid being a Nazi. You just have to avoid slandering Jews and calling for the destruction of the only Jewish nation-state.

    See? We’ve set the bar REALLY low for you. C’mon Coz, even you can do it!

  199. dan

    Am I to understand that anyone who doesn’t bow down and worship at the false messiah of the zionists as their own messiah, via the evil doctrine of dominionism is automatically a ‘nahzi’?

    I am impressed that a sentence can appear so offensive, while having no meaning whatsoever.

    I completely reject dominionism, christian dominionism, zionist dominionist, homo-dominionism and muslim dominionism.

    An equal opportunity bigot, who has invented his own straw man ideology to fight against.

  200. coz

    No, dominionism is not a ‘straw man’ it’s a very real phenomenon happening all around us but people don’t know what to call it, so I’m more than happy to give it a name and make it a discussion topic that people can name and talk about, rather than some nameless amorphous entity that people don’t know what to call, or how to counter it’s vile dogmas. Dominionism is the utopian notion of creating a ‘perfect’ world by human means, by human hand, and jews, christians, homos, muslims, atheists and ‘whatever’ are all being fatally sucked into this heinous bullshit.

  201. C.L.

    Getting back to Western Jewish lobbies and leftist political parties …

    Was James Baker wrong?

    No.

  202. JC

    Coz:

    how young were you when you started hating thems Jews? And who taught you?

  203. C.L.

    Philippa, the Yad Vashem is not just a museum.

    It is the Israeli state’s official Holocaust memorial and museum.

    What appears there is more or less state doctrine.

    The Pius XII wall is a disgrace.

  204. coz

    JC, if your tiny, tiny shill mind can absorb it, respond to what I’m actually saying, eg –

    No, dominionism is not a ‘straw man’ it’s a very real phenomenon happening all around us but people don’t know what to call it, so I’m more than happy to give it a name and make it a discussion topic that people can name and talk about, rather than some nameless amorphous entity that people don’t know what to call, or how to counter it’s vile dogmas. Dominionism is the utopian notion of creating a ‘perfect’ world by human means, by human hand, and jews, christians, homos, muslims, atheists and ‘whatever’ are all being fatally sucked into this heinous bullshit.</em

    It's like, you know how pedophilia was a largely 'invisible' phenomenon as long as people didn't know what to call it, or how to talk about it? Same thing, that's why it's necessary to give a name to this bizarre utopian dogma that seem to infect the whole world, like a pestilence.

  205. dan

    Latterly the zionists have adopted the belief that they themselves are their own messiah and do not need to look for one

    You are truly full of crap. Religious Zionists await the coming of the Messiah in the same way that Evangelical Christians await the second coming of Christ. If you have discovered a theology no-one has ever documented before, please write a paper.

  206. Notafan

    I have a very dry but interesting book by two Jesuits, I think called From the Vatican Archives which documents the efforts of Pope Pius X11 in WWII. Golda Meyer and the then Rabbi of Rome had only good things to say did they not?. It’s worth reading I think especially when the world thinks the worst.

  207. It is the Israeli state’s official Holocaust memorial and museum.

    What appears there is more or less state doctrine.

    I’ve never been there, so I will have to take your word for it about the Pius XII wall.

    As to it being state doctrine, I don’t accept that, any more than I accept a whole lot of bilge about climate change and the stolen generations appearing in the National Museum of Australia.

    These reflect the curators’ views and their fellow-travellers. They don’t reflect ‘state doctrine’ at all.

    You can go to the Israeli President’s website and do a search there of ‘all government departments’. I did, and there was not a single result pertaining to Pius XII.

    CL, I know what you’re getting at, and I deplore it as much as you do, but I do think it’s leftism that’s the culprit here.

    I also believe that Pius XII will be utterly vindicated when the archives are opened again. He was vindicated in the post-war period, and praised; he will be again by those who are sincere in their search for historical truth.

    Propagandists, on the other hand, will continue to lie. Of course they will. It’s naïve to expect them to change just because a few awkward historical facts spoil the narrative.

  208. coz

    Lost tribes of Dan, what is your opinion of the Baruch Levy Letter to Karl Marx, ‘La Revue de Paris’, p.574, June 1, 1928? It’s widely quoted, but since you posit yourself as someone who knows better, perhaps you have a ‘debunk’ theory. I would be happy to see it.

  209. coz

    Why is flippa still here, she claimed to have much more important things to do, such as drain clearing. Obviously this discussion is beneath her level of importance.

  210. Dan

    Sorry I must have skipped over page 574 back in 1928 Coz but having googled it, it appears to be an article quoting a letter by an alleged “Baruch Levy” stating that Jews like him are going to take over the world and steal everyone’s money and become… their own Messiah! So that’s where you get your political philosophy from. It’s widely quoted…on Nazi websites, and as you are clearly a fruitcake this discussion is very much over

  211. Oh come on

    You are a very boring troll for a Jew-hater. No self-respecting Nazi Party would ever employ you. Real Nazis want drama, excitement and spiffy uniforms, not feeling like they’ve injested five litres of tranquiliser. And your points have been thoroughly refuted, so be off now.

    Fisk is right! Julius Streicher would never have employed him to write copy. Although if he were locked up with Hitler for a year, he could have contributed handily to the dull, turgid and almost universally unread Mein Kampf.

  212. .

    Dot – Israelis that argue against the settlements usually do so from a pragmatic point of view: that it is best not to antagonise people that hate Jews. I don’t think they are really arguing that Palestinians have some sort of moral right to the territories

    Tought shit for them and the hardline Palis. They both a have a right to exist. Israeli has a right to defend herself from Pali aggression. I pity the Plai civilians who don’t truck with the extremist ideology of Hezbollah and Hamas.

  213. coz

    hasbara Dan – Sorry I must have skipped over page 574 back in 1928 Coz but having googled it, it appears to be an article quoting a letter by an alleged “Baruch Levy” stating that Jews like him are going to take over the world and steal everyone’s money and become… their own Messiah! So that’s where you get your political philosophy from. It’s widely quoted…on Nazi websites, and as you are clearly a fruitcake this discussion is very much over

    nono, I asked for a genuine debunk or genuine ‘this is fraudulent’ rebuttal, simply calling me a ‘nahzi’ does not rebut.

  214. .

    coz – what are you doing here? David Icke may be more to your liking.

  215. jupes

    settlement is different to the Saudi and Syrian controlled Hamas and Hezbollah being destroyed and Jews being free to live as Palestinian citizens or as their guests.

    LOL
    Dot knits the kangaroo.

  216. [chirping crickets]

    [another gigantic yawn]

  217. wreckage

    coz, just because you choose to see Israel as the incarnation of a super-humanist Jewish ideology bent on nationalist transcendence, doesn’t make it anything other than yet another country among many other countries.

    In fact, if you reject every nation that has a quasi-mystical expectation of human improvement or protection of The Good, or justice, etc., by a superior nation-state (to whit, itself) you will reject any and all nations that represent anything other thanl tyranny. Either the nation-state exists to cause some sort of messianic improvement in the human condition – freedom, for example, or the rule of rational and just laws, both associated with the Messiah in Jewish and Christian traditions – or it exists for the brute exercise of power for no greater purpose than the vanity and arrogance of those who see themselves as rulers… which, now I think of it, reminds me of another Biblical character.

    It seems pretty clear to me which side you’re picking here, and I can’t see how it can be the right one. Have fun snuggling up to Lucifer.

  218. MT Isa Miner

    Any discussion about Jews and Israel is radioactive, even here. Although credit to the Cat fro having it and for allowing dissenting views. The enemy of my enemy is my friend is a useful idea but not the only way to approach politics.

    Any group with a separate religion, a parallel civic life and who seek and achieve a great deal of power and influence in any society they live in needs to be discussed. Mormon, Muslim, Chinese I don’t care who they are.

    The advantages for Jews and of Jewish contributions to the society they live in and the aims and the consequences of Jewish contributions and the payback for Jewishness are different points in the discussion. The guts of history are tangled and need to be pulled carefully so they don’t burst and cover us with shit.

    Israel as the only real democracy in the Middle East is important. Other important things that NEED to be able to be discussed are “the Jewish lobby’s “dominance of America policy and the disproportionate influence of Jewish policy in life generally . In any discussion there are blunter and more or less informed POV. It is the discussion that’s the point.

    James is right to stand up. And others to hold a contrary view despite being called anti-Semite. When someone calls me a racist, I remember MK50′s (?) comment on another thread that the flack is heaviest over the target.

  219. Luke

    So it’s kinda like a German soldier who stands up after the war and says he never liked that Hitler bloke.

  220. .

    jupes #1171442, posted on January 29, 2014 at 11:11 pm
    settlement is different to the Saudi and Syrian controlled Hamas and Hezbollah being destroyed and Jews being free to live as Palestinian citizens or as their guests.

    LOL
    Dot knits the kangaroo.

    What’s your solution jupes?

    Destroy Palestine?

    There is nothing false, naive or misguided in what I said.

    It might be entirely reasonable for Israel to go to its old borders and then punish anyone who violates peace with invasion, cessation as a state and annexation and crushing the terror groups and integrating the conquered people.

  221. Andrew

    Seems ludicrous to accuse the red-greens of being anti-Jewish given that socialism came out of Marx and Engels.

    Seems reasonable given that the two most prominent of their type were Hitler (National Socialist / green-leaning) and Stalin. Could all be a coincidence. All those senior labor / labour / Green officials that studies Marxist-Leninist thinking in the USSR might never have heard a bad word about Jooooooooos during their time in Leningrad.

  222. Notafan

    If anyone is interested Pope Francis had apparently announced opening the Vatican Archives on 29 january 2014

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