Europe vs Russia: Ukraine divided by language

James Paterson in IPA Hey has linked to a map to explain the background to the possibility of civil war in the Ukraine. [Why are civil wars called civil?]. In a nutshell the people in the east relate to Russia and up to 70% speak Russian as their first language. In the west they speak Ukrainain and they relate more to Europe. Recall that much of the Ukraine was a part of the Austro Hungarian empire. Ludwig von Mises and many other people who achieved fame in Vienna and other European cities were born in the Ukraine.

Ukrainian is the majority and official language of Ukraine. But, as a legacy of of the country’s subjugation by Russia, many Ukrainians speak Russian, which is the native language for about one-third of the population. The Russian speakers are clustered in the south and east. A significant chunk of them are ethnic Russian, as well. In some regions, more than three-quarters of the population speaks Russian as their primary language.

Heavily Russian-speaking regions can tend to be more sympathetic (or at least less hostile) to policies that bring their country closer to Russia, as Yanukovych has been doing. But the Ukrainian-speaking regions have historically sought a Ukrainian national identity that is less Russia-facing and more European. So this is about politics, yes, but it’s also about identity, about the question of what it means to be Ukrainian.

Ukraine’s ethno-lingistic political division is sort of like the United States’ “red America” and “blue America” divide, but in many ways much deeper — imagine if red and blue America literally spoke different languages.

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53 Responses to Europe vs Russia: Ukraine divided by language

  1. jbe

    I think the divisions are a bit more than linguistic. Few will forget their history under Stalin’s boot, like that little thing Ukrainians know as Holodomor.

  2. Myrddin Seren

    And whilst there is no reason the borders of unitary state presently known as “Ukraine” could not be redrawn, amicably one would hope, to create two possibly happier and homogeneous polities, the elephant in the room that would likely circumvent any such move is Vlad Putin and his armoured divisions.

    So I guess the Ukrainians will just have to battle it out on the streets of their current borders.

  3. Rabz

    imagine if red and blue America literally spoke different languages.

    Like Canuckistan?

  4. Bruce of Newcastle

    An actual split is unlikely because of the precedent. You’d immediately have the same thing happen to Spain, Italy, Bosnia, Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Thailand, PNG, Pakistan, Afghanistan and quite a few African countries.

    That would be fun.

  5. srr

    Some saw all this political bullshit coming before The Holocaust of Ukrainians – NO, it was NOT ‘only’ a deliberate hunger to mass starvation – and got out to fight the Godless liars, across Europe and the world.

    The pro-EU mobs are the pro-UN Godless liars of this age.
    Unlike Western Europe/EU, Russia has re-embraced God and The Church.

    It’s no accident that Russia has boomed, and re-embraced God.

    It’s no accident that so many of todays Elite ‘Russians’ are of the Ukraine and their stock.

    The Winter Olympics will come and go, soon….

  6. Louis Hissink

    Google Donets Basin and see where the oil is. This is what the fracas is all about – oil and gas.

  7. Andrew

    I don’t think they’re much different languages though – about as mutually understandable as Finnish to an Estonian (although not the converse).

    In fact, anything in Cyrillic is pretty much Russian AFAIC. I regularly annoy my Serb friends with requests for translations of Russian, Ukrainian etc by starting the request with “You speak Russian, so…”

  8. Rafe

    On the holocaust of the Ukranians, and Stalinism in general.

    In March 1989 between 200,000 and 300,000 bodies in a grave near Bykovnia in the Ukraine were officially acknowledged as “victims of Stalinism”. And these examples seem to be merely the corners of a continental boneyard.

    Recent assessments of the totality of human life lost under the Soviet regime are staggering: In September 1987 Yu. Poliakov, a leading Soviet demographer, estimated that during the Civil War, 1918-1922, the country’s population decreased by thirteen million. In March 1989, Roy Medvedev, a former dissident and notable historian, estimated the total number of Stalin’s victims (from 1927 to 1953) at forty million. V Pereverzev, writing in the Russite magazine Molodaia gvardiia, put the losses for the 19181939 period at 20.1 million..” Others have argued that these figures are too low. In June 1989 an article by 0. Marinicheva in Komsomol.’skaia pravda “estimated the total losses due to the brutality of the Soviet regime since 1917 at ninety million people’.’ [Krasnov 1991: 129-1301. (4)

    All such figures are estimates. But they suggest that the Soviet Holocaust was of a range and magnitude (and was directed by the Soviet government against its own citizens, it should be remembered) well in excess of anything the Nazis achieved. Only a part of this colossal tragedy concerns us here – that dealt with by two films on collectivization and deportation to the labor camps, an episode in which “only” 14.5 million perished. Since those unaware of these figures may be surprised, and will inevitably ask why it is that they are not as widely known as Hitler’s infamies (one still meets academics who seem to believe they are all invented), it is perhaps necessary to make a brief comment on this before we start. The reasons why Hitler’s murders have been so well-advertised, and Stalin’s, by comparison, so well-concealed, are quite straightforward.

  9. Ellen of Tasmania

    imagine if red and blue America literally spoke different languages.

    They almost do. At least, they use the same words but mean different things by them.

  10. Petros

    The Ukranians wanted to team up with the Germans in WWII but they got rejected. Heinz Guderian was the general in charge at the time I think. The Ukranians got payback from the Russians. You want to side with people who wanted to side with the Holocaust makers?

  11. coz

    The dead hand of the EU creating chaos and confusion in order to control territory.

  12. Bruce of Newcastle

    The Ukranians wanted to team up with the Germans in WWII

    The Fins did. Its a bummer being stuck between Nazis and Soviets, so siding against whoever screwed you last is probably as good a philosophy as any.

    In SPI’s seminal (and ginormous) boardgame “War in Europe” you can have Ukranian units on the side of the Germans as an option.

  13. lotocoti

    The Ukranians wanted to …

    A Commando Comics understanding of WWII.

  14. It’s no accident that Russia has boomed, and re-embraced God.

    That’s a hard sell. Russia is a seriously corrupt crony capitalist nation. Are you sure you want to pin high morality on them?

  15. A Commando Comics understanding of WWII.

    Oi… Thou shalt not chiack Commando picture library!
    They had that fantastic “Weapons of War” series inside some of the front covers.

  16. Petros

    So you disagree, lotocoti, with my statements? Want to present some facts?

  17. coz

    The target only seems to be the Ukraine, the real target it Russia. Annexing the neighbour is an obvious ploy.

  18. lotocoti

    Want to present some facts?

    Just read a little non-illustrated history.
    You might understand why the Ukrainians welcomed the Germans in 1941 as liberators.

  19. FFS, does someone not understand why Ukrainians may have been keen to side with whoever is kicking Russia?
    “This payback to our Russki cousins is such fun glorious comrade allies, thank you so much for the providing us with guns & ammo, ..er.. tell me again, which country is it you guys are from?”

  20. Petros

    Such hostility, lotocoti. It can only mean you have weak arguments. Embarrassed by the anti-Semitism of the Ukranians? The round up of the Jews was in full swing by then. We should overlook the Ukranians’ preference for the Nazis? Yes, they didn’t like the Russians. Tough. Sometimes you have to take a moral stance on things, the way e.g. the Greeks did (amongst others).

  21. Myrddin Seren

    And further to Rafe’s post above, a quick squizz at Wikipedia suggests WW1 Russian casualties as:

    Approx 2 million soldiers;

    Approx 1.5 million civilians – directly or indirectly;

    I don’t know if this includes deaths from the 1918 flu pandemic. Given the state of Russia in 1918 probably there were no consolidated stats.

    In all, the Russian and Soviet rulers over the 20th century managed to slaughter and maim vast numbers of their people. Which had the desired effect at the time of cowing the survivors.

    And the long term effect of rolling their social order and population trend. Lots of family-unfriendly dysfunction – alcoholism, drugs, disease, breakups and criminality.

    The Wiki gives the attached as Russia’s population pyramid.

    Notably – it isn’t a pyramid.

    My motto, demographics is destiny. The rulers of the Russian empire in the 20th century ate their population seedcrop in war and terror.

  22. Seriously fucking inhuman. Nazis, Soviets, anti-semites. I’d happily take good people from anywhere as refugees, if only you could effectively weed out the murderous and their sympathisers.

  23. lem

    I couldn’t give a shit about the Ukraine. Sorry. But that is their problem. We all have problems. They have had ages to work it out. If they are so friggin’ hopeless after all these millenia that they can’t sort their own problems out, well BAD LUCK LOSERS. Let’s not forget they spawned Stalin.And perhaps everyone born there with any ability has seen the light and left so no one with functioning neurones exists to plagiarise a constitution and system of law to make a functioning society. Anyway WHO CARES?

    We may as well discuss the plight of Patagonians.

  24. tomix

    I don’t know if this includes deaths from the 1918 flu pandemic. Given the state of Russia in 1918 probably there were no consolidated stats

    Russian war involvement was ended by the Bolshevik gov’t on 3/3/1918 with the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

  25. tomix

    Stalin was a Georgian [some say North Ossetian].

  26. Stalin was a ****. The rest is mere semantics.

  27. Tel

    Russia is a seriously corrupt crony capitalist nation.

    Over there they call it free enterprise, and indeed what does measure corruption? If a free people are free to make deals for mutual support, why would that be unexpected or strange?

    Are you suggesting there’s no cronyism here? or in the USA? or China? or Western Europe?

  28. AndrewWA

    In 1954 Khrushchev ‘gave’ the Crimea to the Ukraine – never thinking that the Ukraine would ever separate from the USSR.

    This was to show his power and also endear himself to the Ukranians. He also wanted the Ukraine to cover the cost of the up-keep of all facilities. If you remeber this period was the rebuilding of Russia after the Great patriotic War and immediately prior to the Space Race.

    However, Sevastapol, the home of the Russian Black Sea Fleet (with strategic access to the Mediterranean) has a 20 year lease which expires in 2017. Russia will not give up access to this strategic base (at any cost)

    The Ukraine has been trying to gain maximum advantage from negotiations around any extension beyond 2017.

    The bulk of the nearly 40% Russian speakers in the Ukraine live in this Eastern region. Russia continues to provide Russian passports to these “Russians”.

    The opportunity is for Russia, should the negotiations not be progressing in their favour, to come to the ‘aid’ of these “Russians” in the same way that they “rescued” the Ossetians who just happened to be living in Georgia.

    The Ossetians is another story with Stalin as the culprit but the separation into North and South Ossetia on the basis of the Mountain Divide was part of Stalins plan to rid Russia of these trouble makers and were a focus of one of his ethnic cleansing activities during WWII.

  29. lotocoti

    Sweet baby cheeses Petros, you really do need to get stuck into some reading.
    You might learn that the “full swing” of yours didn’t begin until 1942 for a start and perhaps understand that the average Ukrainian survivor to the Holodomor knew little and cared less about anyone elses woes but their own.
    I’m not at all embarrassed by the appalling stain of anti-semitism rampant from the Channel to the Urals, or the ubiquity of Ukrainians working in the KZs, but thanks for your concern.
    (If you expanded your reading you’d discover the Germans found the Vichy government’s enthusiasm sending their Jewish population ‘east’ a tad OTT, for example.)
    I would be embarrassed if I were Greek though.
    77% of the Jewish population of Greece were murdered.
    A Ukrainian Jew had a better chance of survival.

  30. nerblnob

    Google Donets Basin and see where the oil is.

    Names like Dnieopropetrovsk kind of give it away. Dividing between “Russian” and “Ukraine” areas would be a recipe for disaster though – there is too much intermingling. Just look at Tymoshenko’s background. Latvian/Ukrainian who grew up speaking Russian in D’petrovsk.

  31. nerblnob

    Over there they call it free enterprise, and indeed what does measure corruption? If a free people are free to make deals for mutual support, why would that be unexpected or strange?

    Are you suggesting there’s no cronyism here? or in the USA? or China? or Western Europe?

    Do you think anyone’s suggesting that?

    From observation, rather than dogma, after doing business in many countries including Russia, I’d say that free competition reduces cronyism and government patronage increases it.

    A reason being that if you are customer-driven, you seek to beat competition by delivering the best goods and/or services at the best prices. And you can only do this if you seek suppliers who deliver the same, so you have to be unsentimental about friends and family who can’t deliver. The whole process gets corrupted if you seek subsidies or legal restrictions which will put your competitors at a disadvantage, or get institutions or gangsters to harass your competitors.

    Another observation from experience is that the more corrupt a country, the more anti-corruption laws they have. Whether these are the appropriate way of preventing corruption, or just ways of creating more opportunities for corruption, or both, I’ll leave it to you to decide.

  32. AndrewWA

    When considering all things Russian one has to remember that the country is only 23 years into their current form of democracy. It’s the same for all of the former Russian States (such as the Ukraine).

    Russians were under the Communist regime for about 80 years.

    Prior to the revolution the Tzars ruled over the peasants.

    There is much made of the advances made in South Africa driven by Nelson Mandela and F W de Klerk.

    The changes in Russia c1992 were equally significant with incredible structural changes led by Gorbachev who is still rightly revered in Russia. The USSR was bankrupt – things had to change.

    We should not be too critical about Russia’s progress or the job being done by Putin. Putin has rebuilt the economy with the assistance of Western finances and on the strength of Russia’s natural resources – especially energy supplies to Europe.

    Compare the relative stability in Russia over the past 23 years to the formation of democracies in Britain and USA where history is riddled with periods of power struggles, changing regimes, genocide, civil wars etc.

    It’s easy to condemn but first seek understanding!!

    Having lived in Russia for 2 years I can confirm that it is as corrupt as any story that you may hear.

    But don’t think for one minute that the Australian scene is any different. Remember WA Inc, the current Union scandals ( and past situations in the building industry and on the docks) and the jobs for mates in all levels of our government. Our society is strill driven by “who you know”…..

    Utopia may exist but too many people get in the way!!!

  33. nerblnob

    But don’t think for one minute that the Australian scene is any different.

    The fact that corruption and cronyism exist in Australia doesn’t for a moment mean that it’s the same as Russia and organisations like Transparency International are quiet clear about the difference.
    But as in Russia, it thrives more in those areas of life where government and protected NGOs like unions have the most power.

  34. nerblnob

    “quite” … aaargh!

  35. whyisitso

    An actual split is unlikely because of the precedent. You’d immediately have the same thing happen to Spain, Italy, Bosnia, Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Thailand, PNG, Pakistan, Afghanistan and quite a few African countries.

    …and Australia. Between people living east and west of Ashfield. We call Ashfield “the pale”. Those living west of it are “beyond the pale”.

  36. pseudonym

    The tensions between Ukraine and Russia are much more deep-seated than that.

    There are many Ukrainians who detest Russia. In large part, that is due to the famine inflicted upon them by Stalin in the 1930s. And then were the usual purges and terror campaigns inflicted upon them by Stalin and his successors. Anti-Russian feeling was so strong that, when the Germans invaded, they were intially greeted as liberators, until of course the Nazis showed their true colours. During the occupation, in addition to the Nazis terror and reprisals, the Ukrainian people had to endure gangs of Russian sponsored guerillas who roamed the country-side killing anyone deemed to be a “collaborator” and destroying anything which was productive. Within a few years, the Nazis were thrown back by the Red Army, which was closely followed by NKVD thugs who resumed the terror, so as to seek out anyone who was not deemed sufficiently “loyal”.

    All in all, except perhaps for the Poles, there is no nation which has suffered as much at the hands of the Russians.

  37. jbe

    My grandmother was only 10 years old in the Ukraine during that engineered famine of the early 30′s and lost most of her family at the time. 10 years later the Germans swept through and so taken to work in a labour camp until the end of the war. I admire that countries resilience. They have been trampled over time and time again.

  38. Petros

    The Chief Rabbi of Thessalonika was arrested by the Gestapo in April 1941 and sent to a concentration camp. Yep, someone needs to do some reading. Try “The Illusion of Safety” by Michael Matsas. The percentage was higher, btw, because by then the Nazis had perfected their techniques. Close off the city so no-one could get out. They also got a list of all the Jews in Thessalonika from Rabbi Koretz who apparently was later investigated for war crimes but not convicted for that action. The trial judges considered him naive.

  39. Expecto Patronum

    Speaking as someone whose decimated family is from Ukrainian/Russian stock that had fled from the communists, survived the Holodomor and gutlags. I can say the issue has become more politically charged as the western side of the Ukraine has emerged with an identity “issue” in trying to find out where they fit in the scheme of things. As my grandfather used to stay he could identify himself as either, Russian, Ukrainian or Polish as he spoke all three (admittedly all three badly). Ukrainians are always viewed as Russian bothers (as Kiev is Russia former capital). What has happened is that at the fall of communism the Westernisation of ideas has radically altered the Ukrainian identity to be what is not Russian as a form of identity. Russian speaking become deliberately excluded and become second rate. When my father in law who was born and lived much of his life in the Ukraine visited family he was shocked at the anti Russian feelings that had changed in the last 10 years,” those damn Russian stealing” etc. When he asked what they have stolen no answers,( incase most people are not aware Ukraine has subsidised gas prices, which although have increased are significantly cheaper to what Russians pay and they still siphon a lot away illegally) When he pointed out he is Russian (as a citizen) and that they speak Russian and have families in Russia they say oh not you just those other Russians. It’s all stupid and politically charged.

    Much of this anti Russian feeling is driven by their media which is owned by those with wealth with western connections or state owned which depending on the government of the day swings both ways. Those on the East also prefer Russian news that the former government would jam transitions to those who could receive it in the West of the country.

    The Holodomor is also politically charged. The Ukrainians see themselves as the only victims and it was those Russians who did this. Please note like Katyan woods was communist ideologically driven and that areas in southern Russia suffered just as badly as the areas of Ukraine effected. But to blame Russians, and not communism or say they were the only victims highlights the political nature of the event as a form of national grievance they want compensation for.

    The Orange revolution was also American funded and its no conspiracy. My wife’s friends at her Russian university visited family in the Ukraine during the Orange revolution talked about how American NGO’s were paying people money and busing them into central Keiv to protest. They were given alot of money which attracted them and were handed orange flowers and placards. They took the money as all students do (which was significant at around $60 US) and thought it was a laugh, along with many others who needed the money. This is one of the reason why Russia is so against Western NGO’s due to their close working relationship with the American CIA. That and the fact that the then Ukrainian president Yushchenko was married to an American and has strong American business and political connections escapes much of the western media. Georgia is no different with their self styled revolution with their Western educated leader, funny whose only serious opposition leader with the wealth and sole independent TV station to oppose him championed a cordial relationship with Russia mysteriously died and had his station taken over by the State.

    So it would be no surprise much of the current situation although is backed by the US is a way of weakening Russia. Yes The current administration is corrupt and adherers to Moscow to an extent, but so is the opposition and takes its ques from the West. The divide has always been there its just getting sharper and more charged as Ukraine attempts to find an identity.

  40. Are you suggesting there’s no cronyism here? or in the USA? or China? or Western Europe?

    Why would I suggest that? I gave Russia special insult due to the level criminality present. Give the mafia a cut of your business or die. Criminal bastards, I tells ya!

  41. Oh come on

    Sounds like the European vs Asian cleavage in Turkey.

  42. Oh come on

    I don’t know why Petros would expect

    a) Ukraine to NOT have enthusiastically supported Operation Barbarossa
    b) Ukraine to be an island of non anti-Semites

    The Bolsheviks ravaged Ukraine – this justifies Ukraine’s collaboration with the Nazis against the Soviets.

  43. stackja

    Ukraine was pillaged by Stalin.
    Ukraine’s past debate comes down to support for Stalin or not. Stalin was only interested in Stalin.

  44. Joe Goodacre

    This is Nazi Germany in the Sudetenland repeating itself.

    An ethnic minority is being bullied by affirmative action – they call on a stronger mother country who historically dominated the region (as Germany did, and Russia previously did in the Ukraine.)

    If civil war erupts, it will only be because Russia deemed it necessary in order to justify military intervention. Sevastopol won’t be relinquished by Russia as a naval base. With the US and EU weak, wait for greater calls for Russian portions of Ukraine to be reunited with Russia, conflict to erupt and Russian peacekeepers to come in and insert a puppet government. It will be the USSR all over again, just called something different.

  45. mh

    Don’t neglect the religio-cultural dimension of this crisis – most in the western Ukraine, particularly areas like Galicia and Ruthenia, are Ukrainian Catholics in union with Rome. Even many of the Ukrainian Orthodox belong to the that part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which declared independence from Moscow in 1990 and which, in the interest of Ukrainian nationalism, morally supports those who want the Ukraine out of the Russian orbit. The Russian Orthodox hierarchy, who have a proxy church in the Ukraine, are presently appealing to the moral sensibilities of Ukrainian Catholics and Orthodox by warning that integration with the EU will bring in its wake the legalization of homosexual marriage. The Western press practically never report on this dimension because they don’t understand it, but religion constitutes a large part of cultural identity in that part of the world (most of the world!) and it explains more about the conflict than the language division. After all, Ukrainian and Russian are partially mutually intelligible, and most Ukrainians over a certain age speak Russian anyway.

  46. Fisky

    Such hostility, lotocoti. It can only mean you have weak arguments. Embarrassed by the anti-Semitism of the Ukranians? The round up of the Jews was in full swing by then. We should overlook the Ukranians’ preference for the Nazis?

    Um, less than 10 years before Hitler’s invasion of the Soviet Union, the Ukraine had lost millions of their people to a Stalin-engineered famine. Hitler, at Operation Barbarossa, had not even started the Final Solution yet (mid ’41), while Stalin’s body count was somewhere between 10-20 million. By siding with Hitler in ’41, those Ukrainian Nazi colloborators were really choosing the second worst over the worst murderer in Europe at that time, to rid themselves of the more immediate threat. This does not justify at all any alliance with Hitler, but it is entirely understandable given what the Ukrainians had been through with Stalin. Of course, Hitler rapidly caught up to Stalin’s body count within a few short years, and the Ukrainians soon discovered that Hitler’s plans for them were hardly better than Stalin’s, but a little historical perspective is in order.

    Funny how Eastern Europeans are condemned for a relatively short alliance with what they saw as the lesser evil at the time, but Australian unionists aren’t condemned for openly undermining the war effort against Hitler. In fact, not even Stalin himself cops much flak from the Left for materially propping up Hitler for 2 years and supplying his war machine with the necessary resources.

  47. stackja

    Fisky
    #1173475, posted on January 31, 2014 at 7:43 pm
    Funny how Eastern Europeans are condemned for a relatively short alliance with what they saw as the lesser evil at the time, but Australian unionists aren’t condemned for openly undermining the war effort against Hitler. In fact, not even Stalin himself cops much flak from the Left for materially propping up Hitler for 2 years and supplying his war machine with the necessary resources.

    History has been re-written by the Left again. For the gullible to read and believe.

  48. Fisky

    Petros sounds very like a former Crikey journalist and Walkley “winner” cum finalist, with his preference for Communism and all things Communist.

  49. nonmus

    Spent months working with a forty-something Ukrainian engineer, surprised to discover he had no knowledge of the holocaustic purges and deliberate famines inflicted on his people under Stalin. And neither would he so much as admit to the possibility, taking the line that such matters belonged in the past, had no relevance and were more than likely no more than western propaganda. Good engineer, blinkered historian I guess.

  50. Tel

    From observation, rather than dogma, after doing business in many countries including Russia, I’d say that free competition reduces cronyism and government patronage increases it.

    Trade happens everywhere, so if government takes a step back, then people will organize amongst themselves, including whatever favours and arrangements are productive, and we don’t call it “corruption” because that’s just normal.

    Once government gets involved, people still trade amongst themselves, but some of that trade now becomes illegal so people use stealth and fraternal groups to protect their interests from interference. Now it gets called “corruption” and effort is wasted and the people who want to stamp it out squabble with the people who want to make a living. Inevitably this leads to bribes, double standards, hypocrisy, etc.

    Either way the same people seek the same advantageous opportunities.

  51. nerblnob

    Tel, you are confusing law and order , which free trade and civic life require to operate freely, with government patronage and bureaucratic interference in the trade process which almost guarantees corruption.

  52. Tel

    Trade not only pre-dates anything that could be described as “law and order”, not only in humans but even amongst various animal species. Thus we have very solid empirical evidence that law and order is not a requirement for trade.

    As for “civic life”, I guess that means living in cities, so generally there will be some rules imposed by whoever controls the city. Early cities were military constructs, designed for mutual defence, and rule of law generally stems from a military origin. I would tend to include democratic government as also coming from a military origin since democracy goes hand in hand with mass armies as opposed to feudalism which is associated with small elite fighting forces.

  53. Petros

    Fisky I loathe communism as much as I loathe fascism. What irks me is the anti-Russian, pro-Ukranian stance many people seem to be taking here. The Russians are not always the bad guys and the Ukranians not always the innocent victims here. I’ll play the devil’s advocate if necessary. This Great Game rubbish needs to cease.

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