Paedophilia

Most parents would be abhorred if an older man approached their 12 year old daughter for sexual favours and would call the Police immediately. Some might even be tempted to take their own action. Society rightly considers that paedophilia is one of the worst crimes.

Yet the father of the so-called child bride actually hosted the wedding. He is a relatively recent convert to Islam, so perhaps he was reading the story of Muhammad marrying the seven year old Aisha.

But it is highly unlikely that he alone decided it was right to tolerate and support such a criminal enterprise – one can imagine the pressure to which he was subjected by his new brethren. Surely he knew this was wrong?

The Greeks and Romans knew that their gods did not set a moral example. Just because Zeus appeared as a white bull and abducted Europa didn’t mean that mere mortals could behave thus.

Just because Muhammad married a child bride doesn’t mean his followers should do so.

About J

J has an economics background and is a part-time consultant
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110 Responses to Paedophilia

  1. feelthebern

    Can someone please enlighten me?
    When is the religion in question going to be investigated as part of the broader institutionalized child abuse royal commission?

  2. Carpe Jugulum

    From the link;

    said he knew people would ask how could he let his 12-year-old daughter live with an older man, let alone marry him, but he didn’t “want to stop her happiness”.

    So this enabler thinks it’s ok because a 12 year old child is “happy” FMD.

  3. .

    feelthebern

    If it is good enough for a witch hunt against the Catholic Church running over old ground (under the auspices of a general investigation), it is good enough for Islam, which has had actual child marriages, but has faced little scrutiny.

    In this respect it is the myopia of the commission which is the problem.

  4. Alfonso

    Doesn’t matter who you vote for you get legal immigration by failed primitive 3rd world cultures who have no intention of assimilating and want to bring it here. Even more disgusting is that the Australian people will reject such immigration in an instant if allowed to decide at a referendum. Our betters can’t allow that.

  5. Token

    Oh please, won’t you show some cultural senstitivtiy and respect that multi-culturalism means all views on child marriages are equally valid :P

    As Dr Sharobeem notes the problem for these men is that Australian society is out of step with the culture of their country where the practice of following the example of those great leaders of some religions in the past is celebrated:

    Eman Sharobeem from the Immigrant Women’s Health Service, who handles cases of arranged and forced marriages, called for an education campaign to stamp out the practice. Dr Sharobeem said new-immigrant communities were often ignorant of local laws and customs

  6. Token

    If it is good enough for a witch hunt against the Catholic Church running over old ground (under the auspices of a general investigation), it is good enough for Islam, which has had actual child marriages, but has faced little scrutiny.

    Do you think the terms of reference in the investigation of ALL religions provides enough scope to investigate the imams who assist & possibly encourage this process?

    I suspect the likelihood of death threats will mean there is as much interest in the legal profession following this critical avenue as there is in the police to protect property rights during union campaigns.

  7. .

    Token – this is illegal in Lebanon as well, on paper.

  8. Leigh Lowe

    I am trying to imagine the outrage if George Pell had even hinted that 13 year old marriage fits within Catholic teaching.

  9. Sinclair Davidson

    Where is the child’s mother?

  10. Leigh Lowe

    Where is the child’s mother?

    Under a kingsize bed sheet with eye holes cut out and keeping her mouth shut as required by law.

  11. Token

    Token – this is illegal in Lebanon as well, on paper.

    Are you talking about in the Christian enclaves in the community who developed the Lebanon constitution & legal system or the Swat Valley where we know the laws a wee bit different?

  12. A Lurker

    Given that a child’s brain isn’t fully developed until around age 24, it is impossible to argue that a child of twelve (who would have likely only just entered puberty) can make a rational judgement on matters that she has no experience of, no real understanding of, and with no understanding of the consequences of her actions. Adults (who supposedly do possess fully developed brains) are meant to protect children until children are sufficient grown in years and maturity to make informed decisions. The father, the husband, the mosque, the religion, the families, and the community who allowed such a thing to happen should all be condemned as enablers of paedophilia, and should all rightly be investigated by the Royal Commission into Child Abuse, and PC calls to protect multiculturalism/cultural sensibilities can go hang.

  13. MemoryVault

    While I agree entirely with the general disgust of most of the above posters, the bottom line is it’s a bit late now – not to mention discriminatory – to suddenly pick out one section of the population and condemn behaviour we have been actively supporting in another section of the population, for over forty years.

  14. Token

    MemoryVault, don’t tarnish this blog.

    There is a royal commission into religious institutions as a reflection that the majority of our society does not support such marriages.

  15. “Most parents would be abhorred”? Since abhor is used only transitively, if you mean that most parents would be disgusted, or horrified, rather than that other people abhor them, perhaps another verb could be preferred.

  16. MemoryVault

    Token,

    I can’t speak for everywhere, but get yourself on a plane and go visit any one of the following destinations:
    WA – Mullewa, Carnarvon, Meekatharra, Wiluna, Fitzroy Crossing, Onslow, Newman, Port Hedland;
    NT – Darwin, Gove, Groote island, Katherine, Alice Springs;
    QLD – Mt Isa, Cloncurry.

    You will have no trouble finding 12, 13 and 14 year old girls with babies on their hips, ALL on Supporting Parents Benefit, and most in public housing. The authorities, and by that I mean police, government agencies and welfare groups all turn a blind eye.

    Truth is, in this country paedophilia usually only exists as a crime if it involves a white male of christian western european descent. For everybody else it’s merely custom, culture or religion, to be actively supported and defended.

    In the instance I detail above, religion doesn’t come into it, and so won’t even be considered by your royal commission.

  17. Mayan

    is it’s a bit late now – not to mention discriminatory – to suddenly pick out one section of the population and condemn behaviour we have been actively supporting in another section of the population, for over forty years.

    Memoryvault, two wrongs do not make a right. If wrongs have gone unpunished in the past, that is a shame upon those who committed them and those who ignored them. To ignore them now will be our shame.

    I could expound upon this, but being a simple principle, that should not be necessary.

  18. Mayan

    Actually, just a slight addition. Yeah, we, like every other society/civilisation has done wrong and ignored wrong in the past. What sets us apart from the failed cultures is that we learn from our mistakes and resolve, however imperfectly the realisation of that resolve, to not repeat them.

  19. feelthebern

    In the instance I detail above, religion doesn’t come into it, and so won’t even be considered by your royal commission.

    I thought it was all institutions.
    Didn’t I read something about the boy scouts?
    Or was that part of a broader submission?

  20. tomix

    The Swat Valley is out Pakistan way. Beats me why anyone would want to marry a 13yo [apart from another 13yo], but in Qld between c. 1950 and c.1975, marriages of 16 & 17yos was not uncommon.

  21. cohenite

    Child brides are justified in Islam.

    In Western democracies in Europe 80% of Muslim ‘citizens’ are on welfare.

    The % in Australia, at least amongst Muslim immigrants, is at least the same as in Europe.

    So, with all that paid time on their hands I guess the poor buggers have to occupy themselves someway.

    As dot noted above the Catholic, Anglican and now Salvos have had their turn under the blow-torch; when is it going to be Islam’s turn to be rolled over and have its underbelly revealed?

  22. Token

    You will have no trouble finding 12, 13 and 14 year old girls with babies on their hips, ALL on Supporting Parents Benefit, and most in public housing. The authorities, and by that I mean police, government agencies and welfare groups all turn a blind eye.

    Thanks for the clarification MemoryVault. Agreed that there are “institutions” which hide the type of crimes which would make the people who support them blindly cry.

    The pleasing point about this story is that it was officers in a government agency which brought this crime to the attention of the law.

    It is believed that the case came to light when the girl went to Centrelink seeking assistance for the man to obtain a visa.

    Centrelink notified the Department of Community Services and the police and the girl was removed and put into care.

    As you would expect, the man who is strangely unaware of the fact that sex with a 12yo is unacceptable knew to go to the gubbermint for free stuff & assistance to get a visa to ship the girl to places that respect the cultural choices he makes.

  23. MemoryVault

    Mayan

    What sets us apart from the failed cultures is that we learn from our mistakes and resolve, however imperfectly the realisation of that resolve, to not repeat them.

    I wasn’t referring to a historical situation, Mayan, I was describing the present. My point was, it’s a bit hypocritical to condemn something in one culture, when we actively condone and support it another. The law should be applied to all equally, without favour.

    While I’m here, can we drop the “marriage” bit?
    Nobody has been charged with an “illegal marriage”.
    The “husband” has been charged with unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor.

  24. Cold-Hands

    Just because Muhammad married a child bride doesn’t mean his followers should do so.

    No, in Islam, Muhammed is the Perfect Man and should be emulated in all things.

    Prophet Muhammad is the ideal leader and it is the duty of every Muslim to emulate him. The Prophet Muhammad is a model of correct attitude and behavior as described to us in the Quran, as he is considered the living example of the Quran. Our relationship to the Prophet, therefore, according to the doctrine of the Perfect Man is as a teacher and student. Thus anyone trying to achieve a Perfect level should closely examine the life and actions of the Prophet. The Prophet’s life has been recorded better than that of any other human being who has achieved the state of Perfect Man, therefore he is the best model of the spiritual life.

  25. tomix

    I can’t speak for everywhere, but get yourself on a plane and go visit any one of the following destinations:
    WA – Mullewa, Carnarvon, Meekatharra, Wiluna, Fitzroy Crossing, Onslow, Newman, Port Hedland;
    NT – Darwin, Gove, Groote island, Katherine, Alice Springs;
    QLD – Mt Isa, Cloncurry.

    You will have no trouble finding 12, 13 and 14 year old girls with babies on their hips, ALL on Supporting Parents Benefit, and most in public housing. The authorities, and by that I mean police, government agencies and welfare groups all turn a blind eye.

    Good on the authorities. Way too many kids have had their lives destroyed by being gaoled for Carnal Knowledge and Being Exposed to Moral Danger.

  26. Helen

    Well here is my suggestion for Pru Goward’s new laws.
    All parties, jointly and severally, bar the child bride, should be fine two hundred and fifty thousand dollars each and if they are welfare recipients, cut off from welfare. In addition, jail terms for all parties. This includes, gather, mother, rock spider and imams.

    Same for FMG, all parties etc, etc as above.

    requirement for reporting all suspected cases of pedophile sham marriages and FMG.

    memory vault, you are quite right. Young aboriginal girls and their families called the child endowment money ‘Motorcar money’ because the family would take it from the girl and go buy a motor car with it. i believe that this was changed later so it is now in periodic payments rather than bulk?

    The plight of these gilrs is very sad, but remember that Bess Price was in a similar situation, teenage mum and she left her abusive husband, went back to school and is now an elected Politician.

    Education is the key, education and get the children out of their community ghettos.

  27. Helen

    Bloody iPad father not garther

  28. Johno

    The Left’s ABC has been going in hard against child abuse in religious institutions. Most of the examples that it has focused on are decades old and it has under reported the measures the institutions have taken to address these problems.

    Given that Malcolm Turnbull has assured us that the Left’s ABC has a legal obligation to be fair and balanced, I’m sure it will go in just as hard against abuse that is happening right now, where it could actually do something to help the victims.

  29. MemoryVault

    tomix,

    Good on the authorities. Way too many kids have had their lives destroyed by being gaoled for Carnal Knowledge and Being Exposed to Moral Danger.

    While I agree with the basis of your sentiment, tomix, it has little to do with my comment. None of the girls I wrote of were in any kind of relationship with the father of their child, who invaribly moves on to greener pastures once the pregnancy becomes obvious.

    I once dealt with a case where one mid-thirties man had fathered 14 children to 14 different underage girls in nine country towns, in two years. He wasn’t in any form of relationship with any of them.

  30. “The Greeks and Romans knew that their gods did not set a moral example. Just because Zeus appeared as a white bull and abducted Europa didn’t mean that mere mortals could behave thus.”

    What? Both the Greeks and the Romans treated their children appallingly, by all means condemn the condemnable but don’t paint the Greeks and Romans as something they weren’t.

  31. tomix

    MemoryVault

    Fair enough- are you aware if that was the case in your examples in WA, NT, and Qld?

  32. MemoryVault

    Token,

    It is believed that the case came to light when the girl went to Centrelink seeking assistance for the man to obtain a visa.
    Centrelink notified the Department of Community Services and the police and the girl was removed and put into care.

    I am not a subscriber to the Australian, so I cannot follow your link. However, the ABC version of the story states the situation came to light when the man tried to enrol the girl in high school, and the school authorities contacted the police.

    I find the ABC version to probably be closer to the truth (for once), since Centrelink staff are actively severely constrained by law in such matters, and NSW Community Services have a long history of turning a blind eye to much more serious cases.

  33. Mayan

    Helen: don’t forget to deport any non-citizens involved. Apparently Norway has recently taken to using that as a way of keeping their crime issues under control.

  34. MemoryVault

    Fair enough- are you aware if that was the case in your examples in WA, NT, and Qld?

    Sorry tomix, but I’m not sure what you are asking.

    If you are asking if the example of the one man and many girls is common, I can only speak of my experiences in WA. For the other states, I was commenting on observations only.

    If, on the other hand, you are asking if we have in our midst, and actively support and condone, a culture where underage girls are treated as (usually unwilling) sexual play toys for older men, then the answer is yes. We are talking about a culture where a female has absolutely no standing or worth at all, until she has two or three kids, can collect a fair whack on SPB,and has obtained public housing.

    Then, provided she’s not too scarred from the beatings, she just may be able to “get a man”, at least on a part-time basis.

  35. Token

    …don’t forget to deport any non-citizens involved. Apparently Norway has recently taken to using that as a way of keeping their crime issues under control.

    As the progressive always telling us, those enlightened Scandanavians are just plain better than the rest of us. Look how progressive they are at dealing with criminals who are immigrants!

  36. tomix

    What i’m saying is that you have observed young women with babies. Apart from one instance, you have no knowledge of their personal situation.

  37. hzhousewife

    Well here is my suggestion for Pru Goward’s new laws.
    All parties, jointly and severally, bar the child bride, should be fine two hundred and fifty thousand dollars each and if they are welfare recipients, cut off from welfare. In addition, jail terms for all parties. This includes, gather, mother, rock spider and imams.

    Same for FMG, all parties etc, etc as above.

    requirement for reporting all suspected cases of pedophile sham marriages and FMG.

    If I were in charge of the world, there would be involuntary sterilization
    of the men involved in these cases (imam too), and mandated
    contraception for the females until age 25.

  38. Jessie

    The moral economy has changed in remote Aboriginal Australia. This can be easily identified in the history of fashion. For example.

    And regarding scouts.

  39. Jessie

    Oops wrong link. Another example. Another example. Another example.

    The political economy should have an interest, this is an area for the economists. However until recently the only field of political economists have resided at CAEPR, ANU.

  40. MemoryVault

    What i’m saying is that you have observed young women with babies. Apart from one instance, you have no knowledge of their personal situation.

    No tomix.

    During my time with the Department of Social Security (DSS – now Centrelink) I processed and monitored hundreds of SPB claims and grants. I could write a book about all the horror stories – actually, I did.

    As for the other places named, outside of WA, while not with DSS I worked in positions that brought me into regular contact with these communities. Only a starry-eyed, inner-city dwelling, Greens voting believer in the “Noble Savage” myth could convince themselves that all the underage girls with babies on their hips were merely “babysitting” while mum was in the TAB.

  41. Jessie

    A lack of English education, specialisation in a minority language(s), a lack of freedom to speak, persistence and reliance of an economy underpinned by welfare and rent-seeking, monopoly combined with poor research methods and output necessarily and sufficiently underpin a political economy of
    * Debt bondage
    * Ritual servitude
    * Informal (black) or underground economies
    * Trafficking in human beings

    The Australian article by Cameron Stewart 1/2/2014 Asian Slaves to the Australian Sex Industry on cursory reading did not differentiate fully between a moral economy or a political economy.
    This differentiation has significance in discussing the plight of girls and women in remote Aboriginal Australia.

    Bess Price should speak out on this, as should the Djambawa Marawili on the PM Advisory Council. As should Noel Pearson.

  42. Naed

    Paedophilia is a medical disorder that often leads to child sexual abuse, but isn’t a crime in itself. There’s no medical cure for the disorder though treatment is possible. As a society we have various non-medical methods by which we might like to permanently ‘cure’ such people but the nature of these methods is unlikely to encourage them to seek help.

    Notwithstanding the other cultural issues raised here as a society it is in our best interests to actively encourage anyone suffering from this disorder to anonymously seek immediate medical/psychiatric help. Such people are extremely unlikely to self-report and by the time they act on their disorder it is already too late for the victim regardless of how severely we punish the abuser. The current system alone doesn’t appear to be working.

  43. cohenite

    Ok, we’ve segued from the abominations of Islam to the insidious dysfunctions of aboriginal society, both protected topics under the PC mantle.

    The essential attribute of a modern, mature democratic society based on individual rights and responsibilities is that those not deemed mature should be protected from predation.

    In both Islamic society and modern aboriginal society there would seem to be systemic abuse of that principle.

    So, if so, what should be done?

  44. Jessie

    Memory Vault at 11.07

    Only a starry-eyed, inner-city dwelling, Greens voting believer +* in the “Noble Savage” myth could convince themselves that all the underage girls with babies on their hips were merely “babysitting” while mum was in the TAB.

    +*The new public health academia which concerns itself with the socialised mind, body, spirit and environment in the Aboriginal industry or an individual(s) that benefit from such an arrangement are a temporal aberration.

    Presumably all will be revealed as the missing variables, after decades of intimate study underpinned by their use of Theodor Adorno, Frankfurt School allows such an enlightenment.

    I fail to understand, as would many young men and women in remote Aboriginal Australia, how the recently released modelling study by Deloitte Access Economics Billions to be reaped in closing the gap accounts for these decades of gross human [young women and men and children] suffering.
    But then many are not permitted to comment or speak on these matters indigenous.

  45. Token

    Ok, we’ve segued from the abominations of Islam to the insidious dysfunctions of aboriginal society, both protected topics under the PC mantle.

    If we were talking on polygamy we’d be doing the same. Weird co-inky-dink eh?

  46. Gab

    Bess Price has spoken out and continues to speak out on the treatment of Aboriginal women and girls. And hasn’t the PC mob attacked her for it! People like Larissa Behrendt and her vile tweets, people like Malcolm Fraser who, when Price supported the Intervention, condemned it as ‘racist. Of course she speaks out and gets drowned out by the PC howlers every time and it is painfully absurd how the Left in particular continue to scream “racism” and “remember the Stolen Generation” whenever any measures are talked about or implemented becuase it highlights the farce of the Left’s narrative of the ‘noble savage’. And we can’t have that! So yes, Memory Vault has a very good point, imho.

  47. So, if so, what should be done?

    Apply all our laws to each single person equally—
    no matter what a person’s culture (or ethnicity,
    or religion, drug of choice, occasions that he or she
    was locked in a cupboard at the age of seven) may be.

  48. Jessie

    Add
    * polygyny
    * polygamy
    and the differences between the terms in relation to Australian lore Law and the economic environment [for eg previously ?c1979 now amended apartheid industrial relationsof remote Aboriginal] and Islamic Australians.
    NPY Women’s Council may care to comment on the award. Notwithstanding that the ‘recent’ recommendation to alleviate high incarceration rates of young Aboriginal men are now community work projects.

  49. cohenite

    If we were talking on polygamy we’d be doing the same.

    My view on that is that if any bloke takes more than one wife he deserves all he gets.

    What I’m talking about is coercion combined with predation and oppression.

    The current situation in both aboriginal society and the imported crisis with Islam throughout the Western world is a direct result of policies enacted and enforced by the left, particularly the Greens.

    So, what are you going to do. The aboriginal situation is a protected disease and the Islamic one is insulated by a media blackout which hides behind the myth of the fucking moderate muslim, which is a bunch of bullshit.

    The aboriginal situation needs another intervention similar to Brough’s when Howard was in power.

    The muslim abomination either requires a concerted effort to Westernise this atavistic cult or its banning.

    In either case the full weight of the law [fuck, did I say that] needs to be applied to any bastard who molests a young person. And that goes for any fat imam or mullah who aids and abets said outrage.

  50. Gab

    Apply all our laws to each single person equally—

    Yes and abolish the Koori court for sentencing.

  51. Notafan

    The government could make arbitrary rules and bad luck if you don’t like it.
    No spouse visas for Centrelink beneficiaries, if you love them that much go and live with them overseas, All benefits for Centrelink beneficiaries cut when they are overseas, none of this more than twelve weeks before getting cut off.
    Treat FGM as child abuse and institute mandatory reporting and removal of children from care, they can be told as they know every lurk for benefits.
    Stop throwing money at people, look at what the Dutch are doing regarding benefits per household; for example.
    As for abuse of Aboriginal children Warren Mundine apparently is not the man for the job. Mr Abbott , it cannot be about a treaty.

  52. MemoryVault

    Cohenite,

    if so, what should be done?

    Deadman has answered your question. Apply existing laws regarding sex with minors equally, to all, regardless of cultural, ethnic or religious background.

    However, throw in a good portion of common sense understanding for genuine cases of young, star-crossed lovers. As tomix pointed out earlier, giving a 17 year old a criminal record for the “crime” of falling for a 15 year old, in a mutually agreed relationship, serves nobody’s best interests.

    There is a vast difference between that and a 12 year old girl being “married off” to a man twice her age, usually for business reasons, or an underage girl being being handed over to a large group of men for impregnation to maximise extended family welfare benefits, as happens in our indigenous community.

  53. Jessie

    And educate the think tanks that Hernado de Soto Polar* thesis is not as easily transferrable to Australia as they like to think it is.

    cohenite
    Well stated at 12.05.
    In spite of Brough’s work the ACC, AFP and AIC have not made inroads to this informal economy. It seems they are regurgitating the previous academics and/or experts who did not study or comment on this informal/underground/black economy.
    Comment should be made of the fluidness of the moiety sub-section [kinship] system both in change of moiety and surname. It is not a static system and marriages do not necessarily occur as determined by these systems.

    *Polar to distinguish from the explorer.

  54. Viva

    A reminder that while we now view girls of 12 as children, in many societies, including our own, currently and in the past, girls of this age or not much older, were seen as ripe for marriage or ready for sexual relations under the law.

    From Wikipedia:

    While ages from 10 to 13 were typically regarded as acceptable ages for sexual consent in Western countries during the mid-19th century, by the end of the 19th century changing attitudes towards sexuality and childhood resulted in the raising of the age of consent to around 16.

    In England, the age of consent had been set at 10 in the 16th century, and since then, English common law had traditionally set the age of consent within the range of 10 to 12, but in 1875 the age was raised to 13. After intense sensational media revelations about the scourge of under-age prostitution in London in the 1880s caused respectable middle-class outrage, the age of consent was raised to 16 in 1885.

    FYI
    The age of consent is 13 in Spain. It is 14 in Albania, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Estonia, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Montenegro, Portugal, San Marino and Serbia. It is 15 in Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, the Faroe Islands, France, Greece, Iceland, Monaco, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia and Sweden.

  55. Makka

    It will get worse. I’m sure. Unless there is some kind of resolute sea change (spine) in how we as a country administer what are clear and overall just laws, this kind of thing will continue. Without fear or favour (of culture, religion) the law IS the law and should be administered as such.

    This will get worse because fertility rates of Moslems far exceeds that of other Australians. Add to this their immigration rate and you have the ingredients for a UK type outcome where growing around the country we would see Moslem enclaves and boroughs subject to informal Sharia Law environments publicly announced. This is a pernicious and aggressive religion which sees itself at war (jihad) with the infidels in all forms of life. We just keep on ceding ground to them.

  56. Has anyone considered the complicity of the higher education system in enabling this marriage?

    The 26 year old man came to Australia from Lebanon on a student visa, to undertake higher education at the University of Newcastle. He then – gosh! – met a girl within a week who he decided to marry.

    I’m calling bullshit on this, because this is clearly a pre-arranged marriage, and he’s come over here on a student visa with every intention of marrying this particular girl and then seeking a spousal visa – which he duly did.

    So why did this promising tertiary student need an interpreter at his bail hearing? Does the University of Newcastle have mandatory English competencies that it imposes on its overseas students, or does it just take the money and run? The overseas student market is ridiculously lucrative, and he must be one of thousands who come to Australia with little English and plenty of money, and everyone proceeds to turn a blind eye.

  57. Jessie

    MemoryVault at 12.37

    I call bullshit there.
    Here is a population pyramid.
    In closed communities young ones don’t have a lot a choice in partners. Even in the absence of lack of education, lack of employment, attendance [or not] at the local kindie, primary school before a trial at semi-rural high-school and the issues of pornography, marijuana and so forth. Travel is easily accomplished via Federal supported grants for emergency, patient travel schemes, homeland/outstation, education, training etc to establish a slightly more broader ‘choice’ of partner.

    Given ABS’s penchant for ecological geography the situation is embedded not only at the religious, plant & animal distribution apartheid geography but at the human level.

  58. Jessie

    Viva at 12.53

    but in 1875 the age was raised to 13

    Was it the case the Church’s permission had to be sought for these marriages?
    The Church in remote Australia are the elders/traditional owners.

  59. Jessie

    It is not a laughing matter for the many young men and women that want to speak out in remote Australia. They probably all gave up years ago judging by the fashions.

    Danish cartoons etc and de Soto

  60. cohenite

    Viva raises an interesting point about age of consent being different in other nations.

    The key word is consent, but implicit in that is the notion of sufficient maturity to give consent. I seriously doubt whether any 13 year old in Australia is giving informed consent before she wanders of with heckle or jeckle behind the barn for a quickie.

    Another dimension to consent is the battered wife syndrome; look at any muslim woman wearing the full fucking regalia and I defy any reasonable case can be made that she is consenting to wearing that. The muslim woman may say, indeed vociferously declare that they are doing what they doing willingly. But if they were raised in a culture where total submission is conditioned from birth what else is she going to say unless she is some remarkable female like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or that poor Afghanistan girl who was shot for her trouble.

    In Australia the age of consent is 16 but that does not provide the context for what happens in either aboriginal or muslim culture. There the underage molestation is part of an inherent and systemic diminution of the female.

    Despite the outrageous bullshit and hypocrisy from the cowards who call themselves feminists in the West no such methodical, systemic oppression of women occurs.

    So, as I said you intervene into the aboriginal situation and you either go in all guns blazing into the muslim one or you nab the bastards.

  61. cohenite

    “nab”

    Ban; I was on the way to the bank.

  62. Token

    My view on that is that if any bloke takes more than one wife he deserves all he gets.

    What I’m talking about is coercion combined with predation and oppression.

    Strangely the polygamy does not take the form of 2 wives around the same age, rather it is a younger women being provided to an older man. I’ll let the evidence stand on the age of the younger woman and upon which side of the age of consent such young women fall.

  63. tomix

    As for the other places named, outside of WA, while not with DSS I worked in positions that brought me into regular contact with these communities. Only a starry-eyed, inner-city dwelling, Greens voting believer in the “Noble Savage” myth could convince themselves that all the underage girls with babies on their hips were merely “babysitting” while mum was in the TAB.

    Did you forget to mention the Grassy Knoll and the Fake Moon Landing?

    You appear to me to be saying: 1. These people are victims of paedophiles. Where’s the evidence?

    2. The state should take a keen interest in the sex lives of minors. [ for the kiddies good, of course]

  64. Token

    Another dimension to consent is the battered wife syndrome; look at any muslim woman wearing the full fucking regalia and I defy any reasonable case can be made that she is consenting to wearing that

    Don’t forget that if the women wear that gear, no one can see the bruises around the eyes in their day to day life.

  65. tomix

    I think we’re talking about cross-cousin marriage in the case of the muslims.

    Do the in-laws turn a blind eye if their daughter gets beatings? Why would they?

    In my experience violent people have violent relationships. Hand wringers and do gooders won’t change that. But that doesn’t worry busybodies who would like nothing better than to have a spy cam in everyones bedroom.

  66. Julian mclaren

    When I started reading this post I thought it was about a Hollywood Director…

  67. tomix

    The child victim is now in her 50s and says she moves on years ago and everybody else might give it some consideration. link

    Meanwhile, Chinatown 2 & 3 never got made.

  68. cohenite

    The 2 Jakes was a sequel to Chinatown wasn’t it?

  69. Token

    What a piece of filth Whoopi Goldberg is. She is first to claim racism no matter how tendacious the claim can be.

  70. Tintarella Di Luna

    I am not a subscriber to the Australian, so I cannot follow your link. However, the ABC version of the story states the situation came to light when the man tried to enrol the girl in high school, and the school authorities contacted the police.

    Apparently he tried to enrol her at Auburn Girls High — see what an exciting suburb I work in? Stabbings outside the window on a Saturday arvo, shooting at ambulances arriving to tend shot-up vicitms, coffee-shop killings in cold-blood, Hindu temple shot up, Christian churches vandalised and one burnt to the ground — all manner of bearded ones with baseball caps on backwards as you’d want to see at Cronulla beach or cruising Brighton-le-Sands, it’s a place of such multi-culture ‘cept you can’t buy a decent sandwich at lunch time.

    I know I shouldn’t gloat.

  71. Tintarella Di Luna

    What a piece of filth Whoopi Goldberg is. She is first to claim racism no matter how tendacious the claim can be.

    Goldberg is a bitter and twisted ignoramus. I remember her on the View interrogating Anne Coulter — Anne Coulter reminded her that Abe Lincoln was a Republican and Republicans passed laws that gave equal rights to people of colour. Goldberg didn’t believe her — Goldberg behaved as if just because she was a negro woman that by sheer fact of her DNA made her the repository (though she behaved like a suppository) of all knowledge past, present and future as it pertained to Americans of African extraction.

  72. tomix

    Yes. Read recently that the plan was for a trilogy on L.A. corruption in the 30s & 40s, but Polanskis problems and disputes between Nicholson and the writer meant it never happened when it should have, time wise.

  73. Jessie

    Gab at 11.55

    Encourage Bess Price by writing in support of her work in public office speaking on behalf of the children, young women and others.

    For decades vile graffiti has been daubed, graphically illustrated and/or written at times in sub-standard English. Public roads, signs and public property, housing, communal service buildings are both littered and bedecked. The graffiti refers to women/girl’s genitalia and proposed actions to be taken on this anatomy by the artist(s). Horrendous and shameful art.

    Nicholas Rothwell does not provide readers with an overview of this landscape in The Writings on the Wall. Rothwell prefers other descriptions of landscapes.

  74. tomix

    Dame Edna subtly axes Whoopi at 2.18. youtube link

  75. Notafan

    The commonality of a patrichial society where young girls are promised at a young age as second or subsequent wives to older men seems quite striking, are there other communities in which this features?

    The Louis Nowra article seems to be on topic

  76. Notafan

    I’m calling bullshit on this, because this is clearly a pre-arranged marriage, and he’s come over here on a student visa with every intention of marrying this particular girl and then seeking a spousal visa – which he duly did.

    I assumed at first it was cousin marriage however now I wonder if there was a financial inducement for the father in brokering the deal.

  77. Notafan

    Just because Muhammad married a child bride doesn’t mean his followers should do so

    The short answer is yes

    so if muhammad did it, muslims must also do it?

  78. .

    Please people. Don’t conflate issues.

    Polygamy is nothing like child sexual abuse, unless there is multiple victims the perpetrator is “married” to.

  79. nilk

    Okay, I’ve yet to read all the comments, but here are my thoughts.

    The father is a convert (jail convert I think I read), and is separated. Given that most children end up with the mothers, it is possible that his access to see his daughter is severely restricted.

    Enter the Lebanese student, who just happened to meet the girl at the mosque. Hmmm.

    If the father hadn’t been Australian (fifth-generation, no less), and instead born into islam the girl would have been sent overseas to get married, and the student could have come here on a spousal visa at a later stage.

    It’s been happening for years over in Britain especially, to the extent that they are cracking down on girls under the age of 18 being brought into the country.

    It wouldn’t be too hard to push on the father using Mohammad as an example, and anyway Allah’s laws are better than Man’s. Plus, he might even get to see more of his child and he’d be doing a Good Thing for the Ummah.

  80. Jessie

    cohenite at 1.18

    Well blow me down, the things you learn on Cat.
    I had no idea Hekyll [Heckle] and Jekyll [Jeckle] were magpies. For some idea I always thought them currawongs or crows, until today that is and I became educated.

    Heckle and Jeckle 1946 on property rights in the absence of H&J Arabian Nights.

    And Pill Peddlars along with The Most Racist Cartoon Ever.

  81. Senile Old Dufus

    The ACT Supreme Court has heard an award-winning Torres Strait artist, found guilty of sexually assaulting a 13-year-old girl in the 1990s, has endured several attacks in jail. Denis Nona, 40, has been in jail for 18 months awaiting sentencing. In July 2013, Nona was found guilty of nine charges including rape and assault against the girl.

    But Nona’s lawyer John Purnell told the court the offences coincided with a difficult time in Nona’s life when he was drinking because of cultural difficulties adjusting to living in Canberra.

    A difficult time in his life? And this is his excuse for raping a 13 year old girl?

    A report on an earlier (successfully appealed) trial has different details, which make the case worse than recent report above:

    A prominent Indigenous artist found guilty of sexually abusing a 12-year-old girl, who then fell pregnant, has won the right to a retrial. In 2012, an ACT Supreme Court jury found Dennis Michael Nona, 40, guilty of four counts of sexual assault on two young sisters during the 1990s.

    It appears that, in its most recent report, the ABC is either (a) trying to reduce the severity of the crime or (b) is incompetent. Or, of course, (c) both of the above.

  82. cohenite

    Let’s hope Brough gets involved with the aboriginal situation and dropkicks every leftie dropkick out of the decision making regime.

    Islam is different. It is the perfect ‘religion’; implacable, fully politicised, completely intolerant of any competition with a variety of methods for overcoming any resistance based on the softening up by acts of terrorism and intimidation in the short term combined with long time unlimited reproduction.

    In a lot of ways Islam is the ID of mankind given shape like in Forbidden Planet; what the West needs is a Leslie Nielsen, a no nonsense punch ‘em in the face commander because just as in that great film, the West’s intelligentsia, in the shape of Morbius , have lost the plot and our military, just like Robby the Robot have been emasculated by PC instructions and constraints.

    It’s a fight worth winning because the prize is Anne Francis.

  83. Jannie

    Memory Vault, good points and. Discussion. However, the authorities do take some action, but it may not get much press coverage. For example, if you visit say, Geraldton or Broome prison, you will find around 40% of Aboriginal inmates are inside for this reason. Usually the male has some kind clan or cultural ‘right’ to the girl, but in some cases they just take what they see anyway. A lot of. Prosecuted cases go more or less unnoticed or ignored in the media.

  84. MemoryVault

    Jannie,

    if you visit say, Geraldton or Broome prison, you will find around 40% of Aboriginal inmates are inside for this reason.

    Well, it’s been 27 years since I last conducted weekly visits to the Geraldton prison. However, given Aboriginals’ propensity for crimes of violence, plus their preference to “cut out” fines rather than pay them, I have to say I was far from convinced by your statement. So I went and checked.

    http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/cat/4517.0

    Sorry Jannie, but the stats don’t support you.

  85. Jessie

    Nik at 3.56

    Scotland Yard are reinvestigating the homicides of young [Islamic] women.
    Murder wave that shames the world
    Same for Canada I wonder with media expose of recent ‘accidental vehicle drowning’ of sisters?

    Who could forget the one policeman with one question about Oombulgurri.
    Hope at last for ‘hell on earth’

    As a civilised country and part of the Commonwealth Australia plays ‘join the dots up’. There are too many research grants, careers and $ studying crap in this field to have dealt with the problem years ago. And no backbone as some suggested.

  86. Rob

    I’m not a luvvie but something needs to be cleared up here. Mohammed married a much older divorced woman. He was married only to her for 25 years until she died. He then married Aisha as a favour for a friend (her engagement to another was broken). Nobody knows when the marriage was consummated but some guess from her writings was that she was about 14. He married more women, older, widowed or as a part of a building alliances. I’m not suggesting that he was upset with having to bed a young bride, but he did prefer the older women.

  87. Jessie

    Nik,

    And Nicholas Rothwell 2 years later reporting on Oombulgurri.
    Oombulgurri Aborigines were delivered into temptation

  88. MemoryVault

    Jessie,

    Thanks for “Hell On Earth” link.
    I only hope folks like tomix read it.
    He seems to think it is all a figment of my imagination.

  89. tomix

    Memory Vault

    To recap: At 9.25 this morning you claimed to have seen young women with babies in a number of location in W.A. N.T. & Qld.

    You recounted an episode from your working life in which an adult made a number of girls pregnant over a 2 year period.
    Then you conflated the Two.
    I pointed it out and you started verballing me. Why?

  90. blogstrop

    Tomix, I’d be very careful if I were you, if you want to avoid aggro – maybe you don’t. It’s not just the fairly eviscerative Memory Man who might find you on the side of the wrong angels.
    Posts like yours could be taken as “ease off on the muslims, they are just folks.”:

    I think we’re talking about cross-cousin marriage in the case of the muslims.
    Do the in-laws turn a blind eye if their daughter gets beatings? Why would they?
    In my experience violent people have violent relationships. Hand wringers and do gooders won’t change that. But that doesn’t worry busybodies who would like nothing better than to have a spy cam in everyones bedroom.

    Why would they?
    Well, tell me. Why would they do honour killings of their own family?

  91. MemoryVault

    tomix,

    To recap: At 9.25 this morning you claimed to have seen young women with babies in a number of location in W.A. N.T. & Qld.
    You recounted an episode from your working life in which an adult made a number of girls pregnant over a 2 year period.
    Then you conflated the Two.

    Nah tomix, I’ll leave the conflating to you – you’re so good at it.

    What i’m saying is that you have observed young women with babies. Apart from one instance, you have no knowledge of their personal situation.

    Just because I only recounted one instance in no way implies it is the only one I know of.
    That’s an assumption you made all by yourself.
    Why on earth would I bore readers with a list of horror stories only marginally relevant to the thread?

    Go read Jessie’s “Hell on Earth” link for a glimpse of the real world out there.

  92. tomix

    Blogstrop

    Why ,thanks for your touching concern, pard…

    Try to remember, the thread is about an adult who married a 12yo.

    MemoryVault wanted to talk aborigines.

    Someone suggested that muslim women could be hiding injuries from their husband under their burka. So we’re part way down the track to loonsville.

    Now, MemoryVault may well be “eviscerative” So far he’s been tricky and sly.

  93. tomix

    The implication was that rape was the cause in all cases. otherwise, why did you bring it up at 9.25am?

    But the truth is you slandered people without any basis.

  94. MemoryVault

    Try to remember, the thread is about an adult who married a 12yo.
    MemoryVault wanted to talk aborigines.

    Actually, the charges are 25 counts having sexual intercourse with a child aged between 10 and 14 years. I pointed that out earlier. The Islamic “marriage” is not recognised in Australia, so it doesn’t, of itself, constitute a crime.

    I simply made the point that it was somewhat cynical to attack sexual predation of young girls by one sector of the community, when we have been turning a blind eye, even condoning and covertly aiding, exactly the same sort of behaviour by another sector of the community, for over forty years. My point was we should be attacking the behaviour, wherever it occurs, regardless of race, culture, custom or religion.

    But you are right, tomix, it did somewhat hijack the thread, and for that I apologise to all.

  95. MemoryVault

    tomix, you won’t even let me let go of the subject, will you?
    But you are quite happy to accuse me of “wanting to talk about Aborigines”. Very well:

    The implication was that rape was the cause in all cases.

    No implication, tomix. In ALL states of Australia, ALL cases of sex with a child under 14 are considered sexual assault (rape). No ifs, buts or maybes.

    Don’t blame me – I didn’t write the laws.

  96. tomix

    Nice work there, MemoryVault. Your suggestion was that the babies are the result of abuse- remember?

  97. nilk, Iron Bogan

    I’m not a luvvie but something needs to be cleared up here. Mohammed married a much older divorced woman. He was married only to her for 25 years until she died. He then married Aisha as a favour for a friend (her engagement to another was broken). Nobody knows when the marriage was consummated but some guess from her writings was that she was about 14. He married more women, older, widowed or as a part of a building alliances. I’m not suggesting that he was upset with having to bed a young bride, but he did prefer the older women.

    Mohammed married Aisha when she was six and consummated it when she was nine. There are some islamic apologists who say that it was consummated when she was fourteen, but there are also apologists for FGM as a mere cultural tradition.

    I don’t believe that it was a case of Mohammed preferring older women – otherwise Aisha wouldn’t have been his favourite.

    I think that he would tap anything that moved and some that didn’t, and even his favourite childbride was known to remark on how convenient his ‘revelations’ were.

    He was not averse to taking to wife women whose husband he’d murdered:

    Muslim Book 008, Number 3329:

    Anas, (Allah be pleased with him) reported: Safiyya (Allah be pleased with her) fell to the lot of Dihya in the spoils of war, and they praised her in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: We have not seen the like of her among the captives of war. He sent (a messenger) to Dihya and he gave him whatever he demanded.

    That day Safia’s husband was tortured and beheaded in front of her eyes, her father and brothers were killed, her sisters cousins and mother were given away to jihadis as booty and then Mohammed still wearing bloody clothes with r the blood of her relatives, had sex with her. Nabil Ahmad do you really believe that it was a consensual sex? Place your own daughter , sister or wife in her place. Do you really believe that they would have changed thier religion to the religion of 60 year old killer of their, husband, brother and father and then have sex with him gladly? Here is from Book of Tabaqat by Sad (and Ishaq)”

  98. Turtle of WA

    What a piece of filth Whoopi Goldberg is. She is first to claim racism no matter how tendacious the claim can be.

    Well said Token, but you don’t go far enough. South Park do a good job capturing her: all she ever says is ‘Republicans are so stupid’.

  99. a much older divorced woman

    No, the wealthy Khadijah bint Khuwaylid was a widow (twice over) when she married the poor Mahomet (when he was twenty-five and she was forty); he remained monogamous during her life—perhaps because she bankrolled his new religion—, but he made up for that by marrying often, and taking many concubines, after she died.

  100. Rob

    nilk, Iron Bogan , the custom was to wait until the 6th or 9th menstruation before consummating the religion.

    Lets get something straight. I hate the left not because I don’t have a heart but because it is all propaganda with selfishness rather than good will behind. I hate the rabid right for the same reason.

    Deadman, she was married three times (very careless, I guess).

  101. Yes, Rob, Khadijah married thrice; her third husband was Mahomet.

  102. Rob

    Sorry Deadman, must have been thinking of a different wife. Not a scholar but I dislike the twisting of his marriage to Aisha into pedophilia. Remember that this was normal practice until recently even in Europe. Mary was not yet a teenager when she became pregnant. The argument should be that if Muslim men were to follow Mohammed’s life, they would marry a cougar.

  103. Jessie

    MemoryVault at 6.40pm, you’re welcome. [email protected] posted a link to Louis Nowra. Nowra describes events in Culture of Denial however I find his conclusions amiss. It is true men are and have a significant problem. He fails to implicate some women in the problem of [structural] violence and collectively, these men and women both urban and remote, have purposively maintained this ‘false re-tribalism’.
    The experiment is over, as Bennelong Society suggested, and Noel Pearson and many others deny. The answer to that is the most difficult of all, and perhaps only can be answered by the men, many who unwittingly may have been recruited into this experiment.

    In regard to cougars (Tom 9.25), is it correct in some remote communities that widows are required to pay ‘illness and death duties’ to significant others, and these same women are still given to the brothers of their deceased husband? And that these brothers may well already have a few wives? An anthropologist in this field may know. Alternatively send out Tom Doyle the Oombulgurri detective, he seems to receive direct answers to his direct questions. In a short space of time and without the need of endless publications arriving at some inconclusive thesis.

  104. nilk

    nilk, Iron Bogan , the custom was to wait until the 6th or 9th menstruation before consummating the religion.

    Custome be damned, Rob. There is the practice of thighing, which is quite revolting, and then you have Khomeini’s suggestion that it’s a good thing for a girl to have her first menses in her husband’s house rather than her father’s.

    Do you really think a man for whom a woman is a ’tilth’ to sow as he will is going to sit down and count a young girl’s cycles?

  105. nilk

    Also, Rob, I don’t consider Mohamed to be a rockspider. I think he was a pervert and as said about, would tap anything that moved and some that didn’t. He took his women at any and all ages.

  106. Jessie

    nilk, thank you for adding these fascinating insights to the discussion

    Ida Lichter writes of Muslim women’s issues and supported Raheel Raza to visit and speak at a private function in Sydney some years ago.
    Eye on a Crazy Planet

    A few of my fashion photos did not link correctly
    I’ll try one again.
    Scouts: http://photos.naa.gov.au/photo/Default.aspx?id=11729845

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