What planet is Pyne on?

There are two articles in The Australian this morning that are simply astonishing. Both involve the education portfolio.

First – a review into teachers.

Second – an article on the national curriculum.

The background story goes something like this: There is a widespread perception that education standards are falling and this is due to bad or poor teaching. The bad or poor teaching is due to the fact that the cohort of people becoming teachers isn’t as smart as in previous generations.

So what to do about this problem? Have a review!

EDUCATION Minister Christopher Pyne is planning to unveil next week an eight-member panel to review the training of teachers, expected to be chaired by Australian Catholic University vice-chancellor Greg Craven, whose education faculty has some of the lowest entry scores in the nation.

University of Melbourne dean of education Field Rickards — widely regarded as running one of the nation’s best teaching degrees — is also expected to be appointed along with other university academics, including specialists in the teaching of maths and science.

Really? Surely if you’re concerned about standards of teacher education why would you put those responsible for the training on the review panel? You’d put them in the dock to answer the questions and not have them asking the questions.

But it is the second story that makes you suspect that it isn’t (just) the teachers at fault:

CHILDREN in their first years of school learning basic arithmetic would be taught Aboriginal methods of adding and Korean counting games under suggested activities in the national maths curriculum.

The suggestions for Year 1 include looking at the chance of winning a game of “jan-ken-pon”, otherwise known as rock-paper-scissors, or playing the Korean counting game “sam-yuk-gu”, which is also known as “buzz” or “whiz”, where numbers are replaced in counting by clapping hands according to a number rule set at the beginning of the game.

In Year 3, when students are introduced to fractions, the elaborations suggest teaching students that while in English the order is numerator and denominator, it differs in other languages, with the Japanese using the order denominator then numerator.

For. the. love. of. God.

Now I suspect it is true that education standards are falling. It is also true that the cohort of individuals becoming teachers isn’t as good as it was in previous generations. Probably due to the fact that women have broader career options available to them now than in the past. I put it you, however, that a teacher-cohort effect isn’t as much to blame for declining education outcomes as is the education bureaucracy and utter lunacy of politically correct curricula dreamt up by pomo hippies.

Christopher Pyne is the minister responsible for all this. Surely he must realise that there is something very wrong going on here.

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340 Responses to What planet is Pyne on?

  1. Ed

    tomix, all your links to evidence of risk are garbage. I don’t trust any of those “information” sites run by anti-vaxers. If you can’t link to something reputable… then pack up and go home.

    Vaccines do not cause autism.
    Ever.

    It’s not like, “they ‘hardly ever’ cause autism.” They simply don’t.
    This is scientific quackery, a lie invented by a man now exposed as a fraud.

  2. srr

    Gee, I could put together a seemingly random word cloud, that would cut to the guts of the the vaccs ‘debate’, like a scalpel.

    In itself, a pretty magical feat; compressing over 200 years of Pro-EugenicsVaccination, overt and covert, medical and social propaganda, into a cancerous canker removing, razor’s edge.

    But it’s better when people make their own discoveries, so I’ll open The Gates ;) , with link:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAVI_Alliance

  3. srr

    Ed, are you invested in any way, in any of the ‘health’, medical or reproductive industries?

  4. kae

    Obviously, Ed must be in the pay of Big Pharma.

    It’s the only explanation for his opinion and choice.

  5. kae

    /sarc

    (did I need to do that?()

  6. Ed

    Ed, are you invested in any way, in any of the ‘health’, medical or reproductive industries?

    No. If you can’t defeat me in argument (which, since I’m right, you can’t), don’t stoop to smearing me as the bearer of inconvenient realism.

    How about you provide one bit of evidence that vaccines cause autism, from a site that’s not run by vax truthers? One jot. Because if you have no evidence, then you’re making it up.

  7. Ed

    But it’s better when people make their own discoveries, so I’ll open The Gates ;) , with link:
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAVI_Alliance

    What the fuck does that prove? That people want to save the lives of African kids? Like that’s a bad thing…

  8. srr

    Maybe it proves you want no one to explore any links for themselves, but simply, blindly, accept your religiously preached dogma, Ed/Kae.

    Remember, Ed/Kae, I only invited people to explore links for themselves. Unlike the word twisters who demand the whole world bow to WHO ‘doctors’.

    Anyway, from one of the many links, containing many other links, that you can wander along and explore, from that link, is -


    Dagfinn Høybråten (born 2 December 1957), is a Norwegian politician and the former leader of the Christian Democratic Party. He was a member of parliament between 2005 and 2013, when he became the secretary general of the Nordic Council of Ministers. He is 5th Vice President of the Norwegian Parliament and Chair of the Board of the GAVI Alliance. He was the director of the National Insurance Administration from 1997 to 2004, but barely attended to the position because he was a government minister in Bondevik’s First Cabinet from 1997 to 2000 and Bondevik’s First Cabinet from 2001 to 2005. He is also a member of Parliament since 2005 and was party leader of the Christian Democratic Party between 2004 and 2011.

    Early and personal life

    Høybråten was born to churchwarden and politician Per Høybråten (1932–1990) and laboratory worker Åse Margrethe Hallen (born 1929). While he was born in Oslo, he grew up in Nesodden, and lived for three years in Sandnes due to his father working there as a control veterinary.
    His father was politically active in…

  9. Ed

    Maybe it proves you want no one to explore any links for themselves

    Stop lying. You provided no evidence against vaccines. You linked to a Gates funded program to immunise kids in poor countries, as if that proves some kind of bizarre eugenics conspiracy!

    Were you hoping we’d go to the site and go:
    “Oh look! Bill and Melinda Gates are paying for African kids to get immunized!
    They must want to kill African kids!”

    Because, er, how do I break this to you? That wasn’t my reaction to reading about that program.

  10. Combine_Dave

    Since a very large portion of today’s adults have been vaccinated, why hasn’t a very large portion of today’s adults also been diagnosed with autism? Or is that why teacher/student standards have fallen?

  11. Ed

    agfinn Høybråten (born 2 December 1957), is a Norwegian politician

    So fucking what?
    Just because your fevered brain can find conspiratorial links in stuff you read online doesn’t mean we want, or are able to, follow you down the rabbit hole of your paranoia.

  12. srr

    And I must say, Ed, that you ‘debate’ like a certain South Australian Legally Blind Surgeon who went into fits of rage over the government threatening to do regular check ups on old surgeons, to keep tabs on any who should lose their licence to keep cutting into people.

    Last I heard, the nasty blind surgeon’s side won their battle with the S.A. government, and he went on to bully, buy, lie and cheat himself new accolades in veterinary genetics.

  13. Ed

    There. is. no. link. to autism.
    Try asking these dickheads for their evidence. They don’t have any.

    Oh wait, sorry, yes, they have like 3 thousand dodgy vax truth sites all espousing the same lies, and completely failing to understand either the science or the policies.

  14. Ed

    And I must say, Ed, that you ‘debate’ like a certain South Australian Legally Blind Surgeon who went into fits of rage over the government threatening to do regular check ups on old surgeons, to keep tabs on any who should lose their licence to keep cutting into people.

    Evidence.
    Put up or shut up.

  15. nilk, Iron Bogan

    Eradication of whooping cough, smallpox and other diseases? I’m sure the anti-vaccers have some complicated theory about how it’s nothing to do with vaccines.

    Late to the partay, as usual, but no matter. It’s not a complicated theory they have, Ed. Basically, the decline in deaths from these diseases is due to the improvement in infrastructure – better waste removal and things like more washing of hands.

    So make sure you live in the first world with first rate sewage treatment and wash your hands regularly, presto! no more polio!

  16. srr

    Ed, all you are doing is putting words and intentions to other peoples names, then abusing them for lying, and you are doing it in quite an angry, fevered, and one could reasonably say, paranoid manner.

  17. Ed

    Ed, all you are doing is putting words and intentions to other peoples names

    You can win this debate really, really easily.
    Provide evidence that vaccines cause autism.

    You don’t have any, do you?
    In fact, I wager that none of you even knew that Wakefield’s study was fraudulent until I told you.

  18. srr

    A bit beyond theory Nilk, but thanks for raising it.

    When it comes to counting, lives saved/lost, Plumbers beat Doctors, by miles!

  19. Tintarella di Luna

    Why has this discussion deteriorated into virtual shouting and name-calling. Why?

    Having an open mind on these issues is very important. I mean deference to science no matter what can lead people to accept certain things are immutable where the progress in that. Wasn’t the Earth flat once? How many times have doctors, scientists or governments insisted on something being settled and set in concrete only to be proven wrong.

    The US actually has a Vaccine Court with a number of cases pending and articles that call some things into question and should not be merely dismissed as the ravings of nutters. The US has the population and has mandated vaccination regimes.

    So as has been the case here the issue of vaccination is a hot button topic, like SSM and abortion can be

  20. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Lord, not the anti-vaccination hoopla again.

    A couple of kids died of whooping cough last year in the hospital my sister works at. There are over 20,000 cases of whooping cough in the Victorian epidemic (2009-present).

    God help us if there’s a diptheria outbreak. It’d be halfway to a virgin field epidemic.

    The dead kids parents had swallowed the anti-vaccination conspiracies. So they accepted a far higher risk of death by whooping cough and all the other diseases they did not immunise against.

    They lost the gamble. Their risk analysis was screwed up. The kids paid.

    Somehow, I do not think they were comforted at the funerals of their kids by the thought that they avoided the apparently miniscule and AFAIK unproven risk of autism!

    It’s like congratulating yourself for being terribly clever in avoiding the risk of travelling to work on a train because you chose to go to work on a unicycle on the busiest and most dangerous road in the country.

  21. Ed

    So make sure you live in the first world with first rate sewage treatment and wash your hands regularly, presto! no more polio!

    So how come it’s been eradicated in India? Polio has been completely eradicated in India.
    With the use of vaccines.

  22. Rabz

    Provide evidence that vaccines cause autism.

    FFS, are anti-vaxxers still cursing this site?

  23. Ed

    Ending polio in India is world’s greatest health achievement, says Bill Gates

    India became polio-free last month on January 13th, three years after its last victim, four-year-old Rukhsar Khatun, was diagnosed with the disease in West Bengal.

    A labour-intensive and coordinated campaign led by the Indian government, Rotary, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the Global Polio Initiative deployed two million staff to vaccinate 170 million children throughout the country on two dates to help finally wipe out the disease.

  24. Ed

    I think India – polio free as of January this year – comprehensively is the nail in the anti-vax coffin.
    Thanks for playing, guys.

  25. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    My last comment on this stuff. I have skin in the game as we had a very alrge family by today’s standards. Every one of our kids was fully vaccinated, and against a hell of a lot more than on the list someone put up above as we lived in places overseas that had all sorts of scary diseases.

    Why? Becuase the risk of them getting a known disease could be quantified and was high. The risk of them dying from the vaccine could be quantified and was exceedingly low.

    So the risk matrix is very, very simple.

    Life is inherently dangerous: no-one gets out alive.

    Vaccinate your kids.

  26. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    yeah Rabz, another outbreak!

    (boom-tish)

  27. Ed

    yeah Rabz, another outbreak!

    LOL

  28. Tintarella di Luna

    In fact, I wager that none of you even knew that Wakefield’s study was fraudulent until I told you.

    Wrong Ed, and there is still a debate going on as to whether Andrew Wakefield’s 1998 study was fraudulent. Wakefield is suing the BMJ for defamation so we’ll see how that pans out.

    This has been a very contentious issue particularly because the health and well-being of children is at stake The discussion on here has piqued my interest once again so I’ll be keeping an eye on this from time to time. If nothing else it is very interesting to see the battle royal that is still raging.

  29. Ed

    There’s no battle, Tinta. It’s over.

    Wrong Ed, and there is still a debate going on as to whether Andrew Wakefield’s 1998 study was fraudulent. Wakefield is suing the BMJ for defamation so we’ll see how that pans out.

    So now you’re going to link to the same truther sites that tomix links to.
    This is tedious. You guys are like 9-11 truthers.

  30. Ed

    If tomix had his way, India would still have polio.
    Luckily, anti-vax trutherism is unknown in India, everyone vaccinated their kids, and now polio is gone.

  31. johanna

    The Lancet withdrew the article and Wakefield was struck off.

    Not a lot of ambiguity there.

  32. Tel

    I think India – polio free as of January this year – comprehensively is the nail in the anti-vax coffin.
    Thanks for playing, guys.

    Seems a bit early to declare victory… you have strangely ignored the process of checking to see if autism starts to rise in India.

    Not very scientific to declare an outcome without even measuring.

  33. Ed

    Seems a bit early to declare victory… you have strangely ignored the process of checking to see if autism starts to rise in India.
    Not very scientific to declare an outcome without even measuring.

    It’s not like nobody’s ever looked into this. This has already been investigated quite a lot. Therefore, based on the science, there’s no reason to think it will be otherwise. But hey- you never know.

  34. Ed

    Well, we have correlation at least.

    The increase started before the vaccination program. (and will no doubt continue to increase now that it’s at ceiling)
    Also they only started official recognition of autism in india in 2001 so it’s taken a few years for that to percolate through to diagnoses on the ground, as the medical community adapts to the changes.

  35. srr

    Ah, the legion of UN WHO bureaucrats, armed with their Magical Who Stamp, “INVALID!”, that they wield with ruthless abandon, in order to claim the win in every debate.

    Oh, and when an anonymous name on an open internet forum, starts demanding others supply, evidence and proof, like a Nazi demanding papers, you know to only provide that already ‘stamped invalid’, and let those who still have respected careers, continue to do their good work, un-harassed.

  36. Ellen of Tasmania

    So now you’re going to link to the same truther sites that tomix links to.
    This is tedious. You guys are like 9-11 truthers.

    … or like AGW sceptics, or like libertarians, or like any other group that is not following main stream thinking.

    Listen Ed, I’m on your side, but rejecting an idea because it’s not in mainstream media is a really poor argument. I’m not saying they’re right, I’m just saying that if they have an alternative narrative that goes against the accepted one, then they start their own media outlets to be heard.

    How many times have we seen people reject material because it appears on WUWT or Bolt’s blog? There are ideas out there that will not get mainstream attention and it’s not necessarily because those ideas are wrong. Think what you would believe if your only news outlet was the ABC.

    I think vaccines are wonderful. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t be better or safer.

  37. Tel

    The link you provide doesn’t cover India at all, and anyhow only discusses the effects of ethylmercury which I believe has been phased out of childhood vaccines. I’m trying to find out whether ethylmercury was used in the polio vaccine in India and I think the answer is no, so your article is pretty much irrelevant.

    As for whether the autism rise started before the vaccine usage, do you have any stats for that?

  38. Ed

    Oh, and when an anonymous name on an open internet forum, starts demanding others supply, evidence and proof, like a Nazi demanding papers, you know to only provide that already ‘stamped invalid’, and let those who still have respected careers, continue to do their good work, un-harassed.

    No, this is how it works.
    if you make a controversial claim, provide some evidence. This is always important but even more important if you are anonymous.
    If you have no evidence, why should anybody believe you? What are we even talking about?
    vax truther: “vaccines cause autism!”
    Ed: “Really? how do you know?”
    Vax truther: “Stop demanding evidence, you Nazi!”

  39. Ed

    The link you provide doesn’t cover India at all

    When I said “this” I meant “the claimed link between autism and vaccination” has been investigated quite a lot.
    I guess we could humour the Vax Truthers by investigating the link for every single damn country that has a vaccination program, but at what point do you say, “you know what guys, we”ve looked and looked and there’s nothing there!”

  40. Tintarella di Luna

    I think vaccines are wonderful. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t be better or safer.

    Thank you Tel.

  41. nilk, Iron Bogan

    Srr at 5.09, I was introduced to that argument courtesy of a facebook discussion with anti-vaxers. They linked to this.

    Vaccination causes population explosion, as preventable diseases disappear. Kids most likely to be saved are the weaker ones, those that might have died because of the flu or whooping cough. Now they reach adult age thanks to vaccination, and reproduce. The natural selection process is broken. As a result, a larger proportion of the population now has various ailments – typically conditions that you inherit from parents, and that would have made it impossible for the affected people to reach reproduction age (before vaccination became widespread). These conditions could include autism and peanut allergies, and cost money to society, via increased health insurance premiums for everyone, and cheap, healthy food (peanuts, seafood) banned in schools.

    To make things worse, a large population also means more polluters, more pesticides to grow more vegetables, more antibiotics to raise bigger herds of poultry or cows to feed humans. This side effect of vaccination in turns contributes to more health problems for human beings – possibly autism and allergies to name a few – as well as unemployment and billions of people living in poverty. It also contributes to global warming (assuming pollution caused by too many human beings is an important factor responsible for the greenhouse effect), making resources (water) in short supply in many places such as California today, and Texas recently.

    Clearly, anti-vaccination people are not more egoistic than pro-vaccination people. While there are many articles like “Mary died from the flu, because she was not vaccinated”, you never read articles such as “John died from a car crash and killed two other people in his car crash, because he did not use public transportation”. There’s definitely a propaganda about pro-vaccination.

  42. calli

    I think vaccines are wonderful. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t be better or safer.

    I couldn’t agree more.

    My aunt died a terrible death from diphtheria at the age of 5. No one in their right mind would ever expose their child to that if they could immunise them.

  43. Combine_Dave

    My last comment on this stuff. I have skin in the game as we had a very alrge family by today’s standards. Every one of our kids was fully vaccinated, and against a hell of a lot more than on the list someone put up above as we lived in places overseas that had all sorts of scary diseases.

    Why? Becuase the risk of them getting a known disease could be quantified and was high. The risk of them dying from the vaccine could be quantified and was exceedingly low.

    So the risk matrix is very, very simple.

    Plus 1.

  44. tomix

    My Aunt died a terrible death aged 4 from Tetanus. She had been vaccinated for tetanus, but it didn’t make any difference because vaccines don’t work and antibiotics hadn’t been invented at the time.

    Combine Dave at 4.48pm.
    Unsure how far back you go. In the early 60s there was a smallpox vaccination campaign throughout Australia. The only vaccines I can recall getting were polio and tetanus boosters.

    Diseases I had at school were measles, chicken pox and mumps. German measles, maybe.
    These diseases conferred immunity- the argument about vaccines is that they don’t confer immunity and will always compromise the immune system rather than strengthening it due to the filthy, poisonous cocktail of ingredients contained in the vaccination.
    At some stage, a decision was made that many diseases, including ones that hadn’t been common for decades should be “vaccinated against”.
    Forty years later the cost is apparent. 1 in 25 children with Autism.

    But even if Australia reverted to the sanitary conditions of the 1910s, and diseases like whooping cough, diphtheria, smallpox and bubonic plague became common again, vaccination would be completely useless, because vaccination doesn’t confer immunity.

  45. Notafan

    So don’t get your kids vaccinated if you think the risks outward the benefits

  46. tomix

    nilk, Iron Bogan at 7.03pm.:

    That looks like a eugenics argument. Sinister, and not representative of any vaccination information site i’ve ever seen. It can’t be genuine, because there are 2 arguments. First, vaccination is not effective.
    Second, vaccinations cause neurological, GI, and kidney damage, among other things.

    So, banning vaccinations can’t cause population reductions, if you accept those arguments.

    Am reminded of the words of Dr. Peter Bayliss, interviewed shortly before he died.

    He claimed to have performed an awful number of abortions [40,000?] in his career in Melbourne and at Greenslopes, Brisbane.
    He made it clear, he wasn’t an advocate of a woman’s right of choice. He was an advocate of population reduction, and he was proud of his contribution to that goal.

  47. tomix

    So don’t get your kids vaccinated if you think the risks outward the benefits

    That’s right. There’s a lot of pressure on parents to conform though. I don’t tell anybody what to do. They can make their own decisions.

    One issue is peoples right to information. Another is that this issue has been a battle for years and Federal and State Governments hold the position that “vaccination confers immunity& there are negligible sire effects- The End”
    As more people vote with their feet, the attacks on those who speak up become more shrill and then will come the inevitable demand for compulsory vaccinations. Sadly, so many people already think vaccination is compulsory.

  48. Tintarella di Luna

    The children in my family were all vaccinated but in those days the only vaccinations were for tetanus and measles not the whole slew twostix posted up thread. Even with vaccination I contracted such a severe case of the measles that I was having febrile fits and the doctor told my parents I was likely to go blind. Thank goodness that didn’t come to pass but I suppose I wouldn’t have been much of a catch and could have avoided a whole mess o’ trouble including worrying about my hair.

    Both my children were vaccinated against the measles but like me, one of my boys contracted a case of the measles where he looked like he’d been boiled, you could not put a pin between the dots, with those two experiences it’s made me wonder about the utility, effectiveness and efficacy of some vaccinations.

    I mean Gardasil has had its problems and so did the flu vaccine developed to combat avian flu. I am with Tel on this

    I think vaccines are wonderful. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t be better or safer.

  49. Ed

    How many times have we seen people reject material because it appears on WUWT or Bolt’s blog? There are ideas out there that will not get mainstream attention and it’s not necessarily because those ideas are wrong. Think what you would believe if your only news outlet was the ABC.

    The difference is that WUWT engages with data that’s out there and that is obviously legit. Weather stations, satellite data, stuff like that. And has discussions within a common framework of science and logical reasoning.

    The vax sites don’t engage with uncontested data. I guess they think it’s all a conspiracy of big Pharma or something.

    And look where we have arrived. iI’s not even about benefits versus risks any more. Tomix doesn’t even agree there are benefits! But the scientific evidence that vaccinations work is overwhelming. Look at India as just one example for a massive natural experiment.

    Earlier on this thread I asked for evidence for their point of view, and was called a Nazi! Literally! For asking for evidence!

  50. tomix

    The pro vaccinationists always have an answer that goes officially unchallenged.

    If a vaccinated child gets a severe case of measles, the vaccine can’t be blamed. He must have caught the “wild” disease off an unvaccinated child.

    Knew a couple a while back who came to the attention of the authorities due to drug use. They had a toddler, who became of interest to the dreaded “welfare” when the database showed he was unvaccinated.
    The boy was taken from the parents and given to strangers.

    Will always remember her comment about vaccinations. “It turns you into a ‘hospital junkie’. Once you’ve had one you’ll be sick the rest of your life”

  51. Ed

    If a vaccinated child gets a severe case of measles, the vaccine can’t be blamed. He must have caught the “wild” disease off an unvaccinated child.

    Vaccinated children are much less likely to get measles. Do you actually understand that?

    Will always remember her comment about vaccinations. “It turns you into a ‘hospital junkie’. Once you’ve had one you’ll be sick the rest of your life”

    She was wrong.

  52. tomix

    Ed:
    The vax sites don’t engage with uncontested data. I guess they think it’s all a conspiracy of big Pharma or something.

    You’re getting ahead of yourself. No one’s suggested that, except you.

  53. tomix

    Tintarella di Luna at 9.25pm.: Twostix is another commenter. Give him a break.

  54. Combine_Dave

    If a vaccinated child gets a severe case of measles, the vaccine can’t be blamed. He must have caught the “wild” disease off an unvaccinated child.

    That’s the whole point of ensuring everyone gets vaccinated, not everyone who receives a vaccine obtains immunity making herd immunity an important priority.

    Will always remember her comment about vaccinations. “It turns you into a ‘hospital junkie’. Once you’ve had one you’ll be sick the rest of your life”

    I have had every vaccine going (o/s travel) and I can’t remember the last time I’ve had to visit a hospital due to my own ill health.

  55. Combine_Dave

    Ed:
    The vax sites don’t engage with uncontested data. I guess they think it’s all a conspiracy of big Pharma or something.

    You’re getting ahead of yourself. No one’s suggested that, except you.

    And Srr…..

  56. nilk, Iron Bogan

    Will always remember her comment about vaccinations. “It turns you into a ‘hospital junkie’. Once you’ve had one you’ll be sick the rest of your life”

    News to me. I had rubella when I was twenty, even though I’d had all my jabs, but no hospitalisation for it. I had my middle ear drained of fluid when I was 8, then nothing until I went into labour at 34 years. I did have a half day in hospital last year, but that had nothing to do with communicable diseases that used to kill us.

    The offspring has had her jabs and she’s never had a hospital stay either. I must be doing something wrong.

  57. tomix

    Ed:
    Vaccinated children are much less likely to get measles. Do you actually understand that?
    Reading that comment, you appear to be saying that vaccines aren’t completely effective in conferring immunity. Got any proof for that statement?

  58. calli

    One child in twenty five with autism? Because of vaccination? Astonishing.

  59. Ed

    Reading that comment, you appear to be saying that vaccines aren’t completely effective in conferring immunity. Got any proof for that statement?

    here you go.
    Go and educate yourself.

  60. Ed

    One child in twenty five with autism? Because of vaccination? Astonishing.

    Not just astonishing. It’s incredible! It’s unbelievable! :-)

  61. Ed

    I’m finding some great stuff, googling around right now.
    The opposite of stumped: 9 unanswerable anti-vax questions answered
    Cool, huh? I don’t think those issues came up here, but it’s only a matter of time probably.
    plus this:
    Controversies in Vaccination

    Infectious diseases still jeopardize human health and even lives. In spite of the variety of advanced treatment methods, prevention is considered to be the most effective way to fight infections, and vaccination, no doubt, is one of the most effective preventive measures in the history of mankind. The vaccine controversy is based on a dispute over morality, ethics, effectiveness, and/or safety. There is no 100% safe or effective vaccine; however, benefits clearly overweigh risks. Ironically, as the numbers of cases of vaccine-preventable infectious diseases are falling, the controversies relating to vaccine safety are growing. Vaccines are generally victims of their own success. Controversies can afflict the positive acceptance of immunization, decrease the coverage and uptake and finally threaten the health of children and adults.

  62. Ed

    got that last abstract tomix? I forgot to bold
    “There is no 100% safe or effective vaccine; however, benefits clearly overweigh risks.”

    (bolding it now to help you find the relevant bit)

  63. johanna

    Despite eeevil vaccines, life expectancies just keep going up and up in countries where there are effective vaccination programs.

    Spooky, huh? Maybe it turns them into Pod People.

  64. hzhousewife

    One child in twenty five with autism? Because of vaccination? Astonishing.

    Not just astonishing. It’s incredible! It’s unbelievable!

    Wow, I’m really impressed too. Now five times as many boys are diagnosed with autism,
    that would be because vaccines are especially bad for boys would it?

  65. Ripper

    Measles? When I was a kid just about every kid got measles and survived. Maybe it is newer Vaxes that are causing the problems.
    The Polio Vax was godsend. I went to school with a few that had leg irons and the use of one arm. Would not wish that on anybody.
    They have changed a few of them to Oral ones since, I still have a big scar on my arm from vacination. Maybe the old timers had it right.

  66. tomix

    Despite eeevil vaccines, life expectancies just keep going up and up in countries where there are effective vaccination programs
    Decreases in infant mortality rates throughout the 20th century make a big difference to statistics.
    Why don’t you bring up the life expectancy statistics for remote Aboriginal communities? They’d be one of the most vaccinated peoples on the planet. And infectious disease statistics. How are the vaccines working out there?
    Chronic illnesses keep going up and up in countries with widespread vaccination campaigns.

  67. .

    tomix
    #1191675, posted on February 16, 2014 at 8:38 pm
    My Aunt died a terrible death aged 4 from Tetanus. She had been vaccinated for tetanus, but it didn’t make any difference because vaccines don’t work

    No.

  68. srr

    Stop the presses!
    Vaccs are off the hook.
    It’s EVERYTHING ELSE’S FAULT!

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/health/study-finds-toxic-chemicals-linked-to-autism-adhd-20140215-32snz.html

    Quick Kae, jump in and accuse Fairfax of being anti-Big CHEM.

  69. johanna

    Chronic illnesses keep going up and up in countries with widespread vaccination campaigns.

    Gee, next you’ll be telling us that cancer rates are rising.

    Does the term “diseases of old age” mean anything to you?

    And yes, now that babies and children in countries with vaccination programs rarely die of things like pertussis (whooping cough), diptheria, smallpox and polio – which was not just crippling but potentially fatal, BTW – infant mortality rates have dropped. Well spotted!

  70. tomix

    The Polio Vax was godsend. I went to school with a few that had leg irons and the use of one arm. Would not wish that on anybody

    No one’s wishing anything on anybody- the issue is the ready availability of information. The information says that the original polio vaccine was capable of causing the disease and that 95% of people who contract polio have no symptoms, even in an epidemic.
    This information is supported by 177 references. Link

  71. Ripper

    As a result, in January 2000, the
    CDC “updated” its polio vaccine recommendations, reverting back
    to policies first implemented during the 1950s: Children should
    only be given the killed-virus shot. The oral polio vaccine should only be used in “special circumstances [39-41].”

    So my gut was right again.

  72. tomix

    Johanna:
    Does the term “diseases of old age” mean anything to you?

    Does the term “chronic diseases” mean anything to you?

  73. WhaleHunt Fun

    Blah blah blah.
    Either vaccinate your child or it will be the moral responsibility of any parent to kill it if it comes near their own children.

  74. WhaleHunt Fun

    Sadly not currently legal, but laws can be changed.

  75. tomix

    Are you serious, or a complete clown?

  76. tomix

    Well spotted, sit.
    That’ll keep the whingers off the vaccine manufacturers backs and the governments backs for a while.

    The peasants want action on vaccination ingredients? The cheek! Let them eat Ethylmercury.

  77. srr

    WhaleHunt Fun said:

    Blah blah blah.
    Either vaccinate your child or it will be the moral responsibility of any parent to kill it if it comes near their own children.

    Sadly not currently legal, but laws can be changed.

    also at, #1191844, posted on February 16, 2014 at 11:14 pm


    PC, EU.
    Hitler’s Europe has arrived

    So, again, one is moved to ask, are you serious, and what’s your position on full term and after birth abortion, euthanasia for children and geriatrics, IVF, Wombs for Rent, Fetuses to Flush and Babies to Buy?

    Just trying to get an honest picture of the sort of characters who like to abuse people who don’t worship lab assistants, number crunchers and doctors, as if they’re all benevolent, infallible gods.

  78. Ed

    The peasants want action on vaccination ingredients? The cheek! Let them eat Ethylmercury.

    Where’s the evidence that ethylmercury is dangerous? And where, as I asked before, is your evidence that vaccines cause autism?

    The information says that the original polio vaccine was capable of causing the disease

    The numbers were minuscule. What’s your point? Was this information ever hidden corruptly? No.

    and that 95% of people who contract polio have no symptoms, even in an epidemic

    again… what’s the point you’re making here. Are you really trying to make the case that ‘polio isn’t that bad”? Seriously, is that what you mean?

  79. tomix

    Evidence? here is an excerpt from the Eli Lilly MSDS for ethylmercury:Here are some disturbing excerpts from the MSDS for thimerosal (trade name Merthiolate):

    “Section 3: Hazards Identification – Potential Chronic Health Effects: The substance may be toxic to kidneys, liver, spleen, bone marrow, central nervous system (CNS). Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage. Repeated exposure to a highly toxic material may produce general deterioration of health by an accumulation in one or many human organs.”

    Link to complete MSDS

  80. tomix

    The information says that the original polio vaccine was capable of causing the disease

    The numbers were minuscule. What’s your point? Was this information ever hidden corruptly? No.

    It’s still happening. In India, polio post vaccination is being called by another name. 47,000+ deaths
    from the oral vaccine banned in the U.S. in 1990. Link

    Miniscule? Are you O.K.?

  81. tomix


    again… what’s the point you’re making here. Are you really trying to make the case that ‘polio isn’t that bad”? Seriously, is that what you mean?

    Just the facts, Ed. Here’s some interesting facts:
    In 1977 Dr Jonas Salk (inventor of the Salk polio vaccine) testified with other scientists that 87% of the polio cases which occurred in the US since 1970 were the by-product of the polio vaccine.

    The Sabin oral polio vaccine (OPV) is the only known cause of polio in the us today.

    Link

  82. nilk

    Measles? When I was a kid just about every kid got measles and survived. Maybe it is newer Vaxes that are causing the problems.

    I thought the biggest problem with measles (rather rubella), was what it did to babies in utero more than kids who caught it.

  83. Ed

    In 1977 Dr Jonas Salk (inventor of the Salk polio vaccine) testified with other scientists that 87% of the polio cases which occurred in the US since 1970 were the by-product of the polio vaccine.

    Polio had been all but eradicated by 1970 – there were less than 100 cases a year by that time. (down from 30,000 cases in 1953)
    Also do you have any direct links to Salk’s testimony, or is your entire knowledge base on this derived from Vax Truther websites?

  84. Ed

    The Sabin oral polio vaccine (OPV) is the only known cause of polio in the us today.

    Well, there’s certainly no ‘wild’ polio. That’s entirely thanks to Salk.
    Not – as you ludicrously suppose – due to better plumbing.

  85. tomix

    Ed: Polio is an enterovirus. It lives in the human gut. It was spread by unsanitary conditions- oral ingestion of human fecal matter or absorption through the skin of fecal matter.
    95% of people infected showed no symptoms. Of course the massive improvement in hygiene in the last half of the 20th. century would make a difference to the numbers who became ill.

    The big issue now is new enteroviruses.
    Just a few decades ago, hospital wards were full of children in iron lungs as a result of polio. No longer. The horrific spectacle appeared to abate with the advent of vaccination, but nothing is without its price.

    The public breathed a sigh of relief and even the medical profession believed, and still seems to believe, that the dreaded scourge of polio was at last being vanquished. We read predictions that it will be wiped out by the year 2000.

    But a body of evidence is growing linking Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), also called myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME), to this terrible disease, largely caused by attempts to eradicate polio. An alternative polio seems to be upon us.
    Link

  86. twostix

    Wow, I’m really impressed too. Now five times as many boys are diagnosed with autism,
    that would be because vaccines are especially bad for boys would it?

    Autism is merely this decades “ADHD”. And now they’ve “discovered” (surprise!) that many “boys” outgrow Autism.

    Meaning of course that most “Autism” diagnoses, as the same with ADHD aren’t diagnosing a disease, but are merely diagnosing “boyhood”.

    We have particular experience with exactly this matter. School systems are setup to inherently “diagnose” more and more children (always boys) with these “diseases”. Schools receive up to $12,000 a pop, the “special needs” teachers require more and more children to be diagnosed to validate their positions. Parents who question why their otherwise “normal” children who are merely behind in “reading” are put into classes with children from abusive families who commit arson or full on special needs children in wheel chairs are immediately labeled as negligent.

  87. .

    Pfft.

    “ADHD” and “autism”, opposed to actual ADHD and autism, are “diseases” where people show individuality and don’t like to be controlled.

    The artificiality, mandated authoritarianism and blatant policy of misandry make school a horrible environment for boys.

    This is really bad social policy but I hope it doesn’t get conflated with the vaccination debate.

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