Abusing the ADF

I agree with Bill Shorten that accusing the ALP of a lack of patriotism is unfair. But I also understand why that particular mud might stick. Stephen Smith’s sullen and surly performance of his Minister of Defense duties* in the last government was unseemly. His disgraceful behaviour during the ADFA scandal uncalled for, and his lack of repentance when shown to be wrong is still fresh in our minds. Of course that doesn’t make him unpatriotic, but it reflect poorly on Smith, his government, and the ALP.

Stephen Conroy’s performance during the week (I’ve been waiting for the particular Hansards to the published) simply adds grist to the mill. In his defence of Conroy (why? – that’s a rhetorical question, we know why) Bill Shorten made a mistake:

What I also know is that in 2007, when Chief of Army General Gillespie was at estimates, it was Senator Ronaldson who called him a coward. I am sure given his time again that Senator Ronaldson might have chosen his words differently.

In fact we know that Senator Ronaldson never said those words – it isn’t that he did in fact use different words, the incident never happened. As Laurie Oakes explains this morning:

SHORTEN withdrew and apologised when Ronaldson denied the allegation. The faulty memory of Labor MP David Feeney was to blame.

But then Oakes goes further:

The truth, though, is that Ronaldson did make an offensive remark to a general at a committee hearing in 2007. It was Major-General Steve Gower, then director of the Australian War Memorial, not Lieutenant-General Gillespie.

Ronaldson suggested Gower had allowed then prime minister Julie Gillard to hold a news conference at the War Memorial in order to ensure his reappointment — not an accusation of cowardice, certainly, but an allegation that impugned the general’s character nevertheless.

Hansard shows that Feeney, a member of the committee, demanded a withdrawal, but Ronaldson refused.

So Senator Feeney was actually involved in the incident but his memory is so faulty that he can’t recall the details? Okay – mistakes are made.

There is more to this story. I recall a senior military officer being called a coward. It was Admiral Chris Barrie after a press conference and, if I recall correctly, it was Laurie Oakes who did the deed.

* To be fair, Smith was taking a bullet for the team – but he could have been gracious about it in public.

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167 Responses to Abusing the ADF

  1. jumpnmcar

    I agree with Bill Shorten that accusing the ALP of a lack of patriotism is unfair.

    Yet he said “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”
    He seems confused, or maybe it me, or both.

  2. Gab

    The truth, though, is that Ronaldson did make an offensive remark to a general at a committee hearing in 2007. … Ronaldson suggested Gower had allowed then prime minister Julie Gillard

    gillard was prime minister in 2007? What else has Oakes got wrong in his “report”?

  3. Gab

    Hansard shows that Feeney, a member of the committee, demanded a withdrawal, but Ronaldson refused.

    I can’t find this “demand for a withdrawal” in Hansard at all. The only Hansard document I can find is this in 2010.

  4. 2dogs

    Steve Gower is a retired army officer, keeping the title Major-General in an honorary capacity.

    So he was not restrained by convention from defending himself against Ronaldson’s allegation in the same way that General Campbell was.

  5. Badjack

    But Oakes is not ethical enough or have the balls to admit it was HE who called a military person a coward. Plus his article, as usual, had the anti conservative sting in its tail

  6. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    “I agree with Bill Shorten that accusing the ALP of a lack of patriotism is unfair.”

    … however things like the Labor Party’s proud history in war time of sabotage on the wharves, failing to load supply ships, failing to unload returning troops; appointing the very small in stature comrade smiff as Defence Minister (after gifting them a car salesman from Newcastle with a dodgy relationship with Chinese officials and then Senator Faulkner of the Left) would make clear that Labor holds a visceral hatred for the people who would defend them so that they can continue to be so bloody traitorous.

    Quadrant will give the uneducated an insight into how the Labor movement matches its indifference to the quaint notion of patriotism with its enthusiasm for treason, using the defence forces as a vehicle.

    Why in the world, Sinclair, would you find Labor and Comrade Short Term innocent? The bastards stand condemned by their long history, exemplified by the nuclear milk infected blubberer’s puerile attack on the senior soldier in the Senate committee hearing.

    Did Labor – its Parliamentary leader or the industrial wing head – call him to account? Of course not. They bathed in the reflected glory of his gutlessness.

  7. candy

    If Bill Shorten was patriotic he would have immediately insisted on an apology and moved Senator Conroy to a new job. He represents the party so they mostly all must disrespect the military as part of their nature. To me they didn’t seem fazed at all by the Senator’s abuse, perhaps they were secretly cheering him on.

  8. Bruce

    Because deep down in their corrupt,traitorous little hearts they know and fear that if the Military was ever forced to move against a stinking corrupt Government in this Country it would be a Labor Government.

  9. Since group competition will not arise in the r-selected environment, r-type organisms will not exhibit loyalty to fellow members of their species, or a drive to sacrifice on their behalf. Indeed, the very notion of in-group will be foreign, and the concept of personal sacrifice for other in-group members will be wholly alien. This is why rabbits, mice, antelope, and other r-selected species, although pleasant, will tend to not exhibit any loyalty or emotional attachment to peers. When resources are freely available, group competition is a risk one need not engage in to acquire resources, so this loyalty to in-group and emotional attachment to peers is not favored

    Leftism; being true to type.

  10. Squirrel

    Shorten’s performance the other day was just another reminder that Gillard’s tin ear has been passed on to him.

  11. Myrddin Seren

    Gab

    When you – I mean you Gab, credit where credit is due – parse it out, it is even more damning:

    gillard was prime minister in 2007? What else has Oakes got wrong in his “report”?

    How about:

    then prime minister Julie Gillard

    ‘Julie’ ?

    Note to Jabba’s employers at Nine and the Hun. You might want to get your company medicos to have a look at Jabba. There is demonstrable evidence here that his cognitive facilities are failing.

  12. jumpnmcar

    The patriot’s blood is the seed of Freedom’s tree.

    Thomas Campbell

  13. Gab

    Myrrdin

    I saw that but ignored it given the other errors made by Oakes. I really would prefer if Oakes gave a link to the Hansard document as proof of his assertions against Ronaldson.

  14. H B Bear

    Note to Jabba’s employers at Nine and the Hun. You might want to get your company medicos to have a look at Jabba. There is demonstrable evidence here that his cognitive facilities are failing.

    Yep – time for Jabba to check in to The La Tingle Journoatric Care Facility and have Nurse Tingle vitamise his dimmies for him.

  15. old bloke

    * To be fair, Smith was taking a bullet for the team – but he could have been gracious about it in public.

    I won’t give Smith a free pass. His public persecution of Commodore Kafer was appalling, and his refusal to offer an apology to Commodore Kafer after he was cleared, shows Smith’s true colours.

  16. Ant

    Sorry, but I’m not cutting the hack any slack.

    He’s spent his life greasing the skids of unionism and little about modern day unionism is compatible with individual liberty, or even the rule of law in many cases.

    Shorten facilitates all of it either directly or by his diversions or silence.

    How is that of any benefit to the country?

    Like all on the left, it’s about the ideology. That comes first, second and third and everything between there and last, which they reserve for the rest of us.

  17. Andrew

    Is it just me, or has removing the Ubergrub Gillard from the scene enabled us to see more clearly just how grubby the rest of underlings are? There are, I believe, still people who believe that Mrs Heroin-Smuggler is a decent person – now that she has had some exposure, I find her as loathsome as Roxon. Smith was always despicable. I was disgusted by Burq in Environment, but he’s just a complete C-unit in every portfolio. And of course the Senior Labor Figure has a very questionable history, and just keeps covering himself in excrement.

  18. Pedro the Ignorant

    Dolly Shorten is now going to attend the Welcome Home Parade for the military veterans of Afghanistan after earlier declining the invitation, citing “family commitments”.

    Strangely, :-) Senator Red Underpants, the Shadow Minister for Defence, will not be attending.

    Maybe the troops will be parading with fixed bayonets and he feels this might be an unacceptable security risk*

    *NADT

  19. C.L.

    I agree with Bill Shorten that accusing the ALP of a lack of patriotism is unfair.

    Well, the ADF is a joke and nobody should feel obliged to be ‘loyal’ to it.

    More generally, of course the ALP lacks patriotism. They hate Australia and Australians.

  20. johanna

    The Left (which includes the vast majority of the ALP) have always regarded the military as natural enemies. They perceive – probably correctly – that the values which the military culture upholds are inimical to them. Things like patriotism, discipline, and respect for duly constituted authority are inherently conservative values.

    The Left’s strong links with anti-war movements over many years reflect their view of the military as mindless thugs and legalised murderers. Who can forget the booing and cat-calling at returning soldiers from Vietnam?

    As for the Ronaldson incident, as has been pointed out, the person in question was not a serving member of the ADF, but a former member who was being questioned about his duties as a public servant. A very different kettle of fish to what Conroy did.

  21. Baldrick

    There is more to this story. I recall a senior military officer being called a coward. It was Admiral Chris Barrie after a press conference and, if I recall correctly, it was Laurie Oakes who did the deed.

    Perhaps it’s this piece from Sydney Morning Herald, Thursday February 28, 2002:
    ““Do you feel like a dill, Admiral?” boomed Channel 9′s Laurie Oakes.
    “I don’t feel like a dill,” Admiral Chris Barrie said.
    Oakes: “Why not?”
    And finally, the formidable Oakes again: “That’s not the act of a brave soldier or sailor, Admiral.”

  22. MacBeth

    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel”. Dr Johnson was not defining patriotism with that remark. He was referring to those who justify their treachery by claiming a patriotic motive. There’s been a lot of those types around in my lifetime.

  23. Jamfancy

    Mick Gold Coast at #1208481,

    Unfortunately the Bogans do not read Quadrant!

  24. Ant

    Speaking of dills and Oakes, I remember during a campaign debate many years ago he objected to the televising TV station (not his own) having its logo set into the floor of the debating space.

    The logo was actually part of the floor, as in cast into the flooring surface itself and not a ‘sticker’.

    So he walks his considerable bulk over to try and rub it out with his foot.

    Yes, he’s that dumb.

  25. Gab

    So Senator Feeney was actually involved in the incident but his memory is so faulty that he can’t recall the details? Okay – mistakes are made.

    Apart from thinking gillard was prime minister in 2007, Senator Feeney was not elected into the Victorian Senate until 2008. So from where is Oakes getting this alleged incident in 2007?

    For such a small article, the number of errors made by Oakes is alarming. What else does he misreport?

  26. Dr Johnson also said that any man who goes to bed before midnight is a scoundrel. As MacBeth rightly notes, Johnson, though a supporter of true love of country, opposed false patriotism. Feigned patriotism, therefore, is the last refuge of those who go to bed before midnight.

  27. cohenite

    Note to Jabba’s employers at Nine and the Hun. You might want to get your company medicos to have a look at Jabba. There is demonstrable evidence here that his cognitive facilities are failing.

    Alternatively, his digestive facilities are going gangbusters.

  28. james

    the left considers Australia to be an illegitimate social construct based on genocide.

    How on earth could anyone to the left of centre be described as a patriot? I can understand a CFMEU bloke with a southern cross tattoo who cares nothing for politics beyond his next paycheck, but no Greenie or ALP pollies fall in this category.

    The left hates australia. Anyone who has talked to them knows this

  29. Leigh Lowe

    Note to Jabba’s employers at Nine and the Hun. You might want to get your company medicos to have a look at Jabba. There is demonstrable evidence here that his cognitive facilities are failing.

    Alternatively, his digestive facilities are going gangbusters.

    Jabba is on a lighter diet since Christmas.
    He has cut out fried dimmies for breakfast … it’s only steamed from now on.

  30. candy

    It’s a strange thing for someone who has been as grossly obese as Laurie Oakes and writes for a living to be telling an admiral that he’s not brave.

  31. johanna

    I think that Jabba had some sort of anti-obesity surgery a few years ago. Prior to that, when he was known as “the sphere of influence” here in Canberra, he used to wear kaftans at home (spotted by a neighbour who is a friend of mine). He went from morbidly obese to just plain obese quite suddenly.

    And yes, given the multiple errors picked up by Gab and others, you have to wonder how fit he is for work these days.

  32. Gab

    errors

    Errors? At this stage the story Oakes has recounted appears to be pure fabrication.

  33. Viva

    Patriotism as perceived by transnational progressives:

    A “patriot” is someone who clings to the outmoded principle of loyalty to their own nation; such people are unsophisticated atavisms and represent the tip of the old nationalistic way which has to be destroyed before the transnational system can truly be established. “Jingoistic patriot” is redundant because all patriotism is automatically jingoistic. Referring to someone as a “patriot” is like calling them a “racist”; a “patriot” is, in a sense, a “nationist”, one who discriminates against other nations on behalf of his own just as a racist discriminates against other races on behalf of his own. Such people are evil, and anyone who says he loves his own country must necessarily hate all the others.

    http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/08/Transnationalprogressivis.shtml

  34. srr

    Like newly promoted (to one of the Vatican’s highest positions), Cardinal George Pell, Senator Michael Ronaldson is a Ballarat boy.

    Australia’s National P.O.W. Memorial (the only National War Memorial not in Canberra), is also in Ballarat.

    In that same garden park around Ballarat’s (’56 Olympic), Lake Wendouree, is Prime Ministers Avenue, where people from all over the world get to see the busts of every one of Australia’s Prime Ministers.

    It was just mentioned on 2GB that (despite being completed long before Rudd replaced Gillard for his second stint as P.M.), the sculptured head of Julia Gillard still hasn’t joined Australia’s Prime Ministers on Ballarat’s, Prime Ministers Avenue.

    Ronaldson and Pell’s home town has very old, proud and important Military, National, Christian and Royal roots.
    It really is very silly to think it meaningless, that that Traitorous, Atheist, Communist Hags head, is missing from amongst Australia’s Prime Ministers…or that it was Ronaldson’s name that was chosen to be woven into this heated National discussion about the state of Australia’s Defence Forces.

  35. Who can forget the booing and cat-calling at returning soldiers from Vietnam?

    Yep – remembered clearly.
    A few other things are remembered -
    1. Being abused by a Coalition booth worker at the December 1975 federal election when he discovered I was a Vietnam veteran.
    2. The poorly executed withdrawal which was predicated on political, not military considerations, resulting in a surge in Australian casualties in 1971.
    3. The bipartisan disregard shown to Vietnam veterans which began to change slowly after the Welcome Home march in 1987, when Labor was in power.
    From “Digger History” -

    Viet Nam vets felt somewhat cheated, firstly because they were hampered in (even stopped from) winning the war by the very political system that sent them and then secondly because they were abused by the people that they represented.

    That “political system” was the Coalition government of the time.
    Labor has always been honest in its view of the military, and it’s instructive to remember that the people of Australia were protected by a Labor government at their time of greatest need.

    Attempts to smear the Labor movement by bitter apparatchiks like Colebatch is the strongest evidence of the irritant of that historical fact to Coalition supporters.
    There is no greater abuse of the ADF than to use it as a political wedge.
    This pattern emerged with Menzies in the sixties, and Howard in 2001 (Tampa incident) and Abbott in 2014 with OSB follows that cynical path.
    The Coalition have always been happy to use Australian servicemen and women as political collateral, and then abandon them when it is expedient to do so.
    That is a much more disgraceful set of behaviors than giving a senior soldier a hard time in senate estimates.

  36. stackja

    ALP has a tradition of calling the defence forces ‘brass hats’ as recounted in official history of Australia in the war of 1939-45.

  37. Bruce

    Maybe they’re very sensibly waiting to see if TLS is awarded a spell in the slammer before they bother displaying the thing.

  38. Bruce

    Ah the Dribbling Dickhead returns.She must have already finished her frock and make-up that she’ll be featuring at this evenings frolic.

  39. Ah the Dribbling Dickhead returns.She must have already finished her frock and make-up that she’ll be featuring at this evenings frolic.

    Another abusive troll attempting to derail the thread.
    Go away….

  40. srr

    Apart from thinking gillard was prime minister in 2007, Senator Feeney was not elected into the Victorian Senate until 2008. So from where is Oakes getting this alleged incident in 2007?

    For such a small article, the number of errors made by Oakes is alarming. What else does he misreport?

    ….or, what else does he secretly, in plain view, draw the ‘right’ peoples attention to?

  41. Bruce

    At least the Dribbling Dickhead knows that he is without doubt THE dribbling dickhead.

  42. jupes

    Yep – remembered clearly.

    Or perhaps not. You don’t seem to recall any lefties abusing you. Maybe they were throwing rose petals in gratitude for your service?

  43. Fred Lenin

    I suggest the alp fascists take on the generals in a freindly boxing match! Comrades versus Patriots 10 rounds of 2 minutes with me as referee.first match comrade milky conman versus Gen. canpbell! Every time the commo goes down ,a really SLOW count ,so the cowardly comrades have to go the full 10 rounds . To maximise the takings ,I will call back the fraudulent comrades giliard ,krudster poxon ,plibers ,Ma burk ,equal opportunity ,no glass floor ,a canvas one instead!Oh Happy Dreams!!

  44. Carpe Jugulum

    The Coalition have always been happy to use Australian servicemen and women as political collateral, and then abandon them when it is expedient to do so.

    As opposed to the ALP using the RAN as their own private cadaver collecting taxi service for shedloads of country shoppers.

  45. jupes

    For such a small article, the number of errors made by Oakes is alarming.

    Are there any editors on Fairfax’s payroll, or are journos free to write any crap they like?

  46. Gab

    It was published by the Herald Sun, Jupes, not a Fairfax publication. Maybe people just think ‘if Laurie said it, it must be so’.

  47. What ever it takes

    With Conroy it’s easy to understand his lack of respect for the Armed Forces, I don’t think he or any of his family have fought for Australia, having turned up here when the hard yakka has already been done, Gillard also comes to mind.

  48. Leigh Lowe

    There is no greater abuse of the ADF than to use it as a political wedge.

    What, using the ADF to implement the openly stated policies of a democratically elected government to protect our borders from incursions by undesirables and criminals is “using it as a political wedge”.
    Fuck off back to the crayon munchers.
    Too absurd for words.

  49. Tom

    Notice how Private Latrine now deals with the loathing of his presence by accusing respected Cat regulars of doing what is actually his sole focus here — to bait, troll and pick fights. This is Goebbels 101 for dribbling, brain-damaged six-year-olds.

    We’re doing our best to stop him from wrecking the site, Doomlord, but we can’t keep it up forever.

  50. to protect our borders from incursions by undesirables and criminals

    Better get your story straight.
    Wasn’t it to save lives at sea out of compassion?
    Hypocrite.

  51. Tom

    Notice how Private Latrine now deals with the loathing of his presence by accusing respected Cat regulars of doing what is actually his sole focus here — to bait, troll and pick fights. This is Third Reich propaganda 101 for dribbling, brain-damaged six-year-olds.

    We’re doing our best to stop him from wrecking the site, Doomlord, but we can’t keep it up forever.

  52. Leigh Lowe

    I think that Jabba had some sort of anti-obesity surgery a few years ago. Prior to that, when he was known as “the sphere of influence” here in Canberra, he used to wear kaftans at home (spotted by a neighbour who is a friend of mine). He went from morbidly obese to just plain obese quite suddenly.

    Fading away from a planet to a mere lunar object.

  53. Gab

    The more people read and reply to numbers, the more the thread becomes about him and not about the topic of the thread.

  54. Leigh Lowe

    Better get your story straight.

    That’s not my story.
    I like to keep the scum from washing up and spoiling our beaches.
    The drownings at sea merely demonstrates the hypocrisy of the left, moaning and weeping over one suicide on Manus, but averting their eyes from 4,000 drownings.

  55. cohenite

    Alright numbers you’ve detailed an incident involving, you say, a coalition booth worker, who allegedly abused you when he found out you were a returned Vietnam vet; on the face of it that is unacceptable. Could you flesh it out a bit. Were you wearing an I support the Vietcong badge or a communism rocks headband?

    What I’m getting at is did you aggravate this lowly functionary in any other way other than announcing you were a returned vet. You didn’t opine that Australia was a shit-heap full of lackadaisical rednecks or the like or indeed pronounce any slogan capable of being construed as an act of insurrection?

  56. jupes

    It was published by the Herald Sun, Jupes, not a Fairfax publication.

    That’s a worry.

    Maybe people just think ‘if Laurie said it, it must be so’.

    That’s an even bigger worry. I always assume the opposite.

  57. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    ” Who can forget the booing and cat-calling at returning soldiers from Vietnam?

    Yep – remembered clearly.”

    Yeah – well, not so clearly …

    Access to recorded history is a bugger, when the re-write doesn’t sound quite right, eh?

    “It is often forgotten that each battalion returning from Vietnam had a Welcome Home march. There were 16 in all, and they were all well attended by enthusiastic crowds – and largely protest-free. Even before troops from the newly returned 1RAR took part in the first Welcome Home march in Sydney, in June 1966, Vietnam veterans were being given a particular welcome.”

    … “Wartime”, the Official Magazine of the Australian War Memorial, Issue 45, pages 10-13.

    “In April 1968 7RAR marched through Sydney after its return home, and was given a warm welcome. The crowd, estimated “at about 6,000 outside the Town Hall alone”, gave the men a loud cheer, and Prime Minister John Gorton, who took the soldiers’ salute, declared the march to be “a most impressive display. These are men of whom Australia can be proud…. they did a job they believe in to the best of their ability and their ability is the best in the world.” “

    … from a Cairns RSL account. I’m guessing that’d be the “bipartisan disregard” bit, the speech by PM John Gorton.

    Have a look at proud 8RAR fellows marching undisturbed through Brisbane in November 1970 and you will see the things my eyes saw first hand in the mid ’60′s to ’70s.

    The scene in that marvelous photo was also described thus:

    “Even at a time when massive moratorium marches marked the height of the anti-war movement around the country, thousands of Australians turned out in force to welcome home its soldiers, sailors and airmen. In Brisbane in November 1970, onlookers “wept openly with joy and pride” when 8RAR marched through the city”

  58. johanna

    stackja
    #1208616, posted on March 1, 2014 at 1:48 pm

    ALP has a tradition of calling the defence forces ‘brass hats’ as recounted in official history of Australia in the war of 1939-45.

    stackja, the term “brass hats”, as I understand it, is of British origin and refers to officers. They used to wear shiny brass helmet-thingies to make them easy to recognise.

    One of my primary sources is the war memoirs of Milligan, S. In describing the seating arrangements for the audience at an entertainment for the troops he was involved in, he refers to them as the usual military form – “brass hats at the front, rabble at the back.” He meant officers at the front.

  59. Bruce

    Abused by a Coalition booth worker at the 1975 Election when he discovered that the Dribbling Dickhead claiming to be a Vietnam veteran was now handing out how-to-votes for the Party which had openly expressed it’s hatred for Vietnam veterans. Everyone despises a traitor Dribbling,my old fruit.

  60. johanna

    Mick, I remember those marches too.

    But whether they were reported in the MSM or not, there were demonstrations in Sydney at dockside when the ships came home, where anti-war protesters jeered the troops. I clearly recall them being publicised in left-wing journals, and triumphantly discussed by activists at the time.

  61. Rabz

    Errors? At this stage the story Oakes has recounted appears to be pure fabrication.

    Appears to be???

    P.S. Thanks for mentioning “the War”, Joh and no, you didn’t get away with it.

  62. Fisky

    Slain Manus Island rioter was Iranian country shopper, not refugee, family confirms:

    Mr Barati had graduated as an architect, but like more than 20 per cent of his countrymen, he had been unable to find work in Iran’s sanction-strapped economy, the brother-in-law said. He had set out for Australia hoping to further his architectural studies. An uncle, the father of the cousin who had witnessed Mr Barati’s death, said that his son had told him Mr Barati had volunteered to teach other detainees how to use computers.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/someones-son-someones-brother-reza-barati-an-architect-who-had-hopes-for-a-better-life-20140228-33r4n.html#ixzz2ug8dXVnh

  63. Sorry Sinc, normally agree with what you have to say, but not this time.

    There is not one patriotic fibre among them, their sole interest is power and quite frankly if that meant stepping over the bones of their countrymen to get it, they would.

  64. Fisky

    So it is confirmed – the slain Iranian “asylum seeker” left Iran not because he had any genuine fear of persecution, but to get a better job. In doing so, he planned to take a humanitarian visa place away from a black kid rotting away in a camp in East Africa somehwere. I’m sorry he was beaten to death by savages, but not sorry at all about his treatment right up to that point.

  65. Leigh Lowe

    Do we really want people like Barati coming to this country and lowering the tone?
    (Architects, I mean, not Iranians per se).

  66. Alright numbers you’ve detailed an incident involving, you say, a coalition booth worker, who allegedly abused you when he found out you were a returned Vietnam vet; on the face of it that is unacceptable. Could you flesh it out a bit. Were you wearing an I support the Vietcong badge or a communism rocks headband?

    My father and I were voting at Newmarket State School polling booth on 13 December 1975. This was almost 5 years to the day after my RTA in 1970. My father (who served in the RAAF in New Guinea) had always been angry about my callup, and made no secret of the fact.
    When the middle-aged booth worker shoved a how-to-vote card in my face, my father looked him in the eye and quietly said “You’re wasting your time, mate. He’s a Vietnam Veteran and wouldn’t vote for your mob in a month of Sundays”.
    That was exactly what he said – I remember it very clearly.
    The booth worker replied “Well he wasn’t fighting for me, and Vietnam wasn’t a real war anyway.”
    My response was laughter, but my father looked as if he was about to job this bloke, and I had to drag him away.
    This was exactly what transpired, and untypical only in the sense that Coalition supporters simply didn’t want to discuss Vietnam, rather than make dismissive comments as this bloke did.
    At least Labor supporters were not hypocrites.
    They were against the whole deal from the beginning, rather than changing their stance when the political wind changed. This pattern of stark hypocrisy has been seamlessly maintained by the Coalition since 1964.

  67. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From johanna at 2:32 pm:

    “Mick, I remember those marches too.

    But whether they were reported in the MSM or not, there were demonstrations in Sydney at dockside when the ships came home, where anti-war protesters jeered the troops. I clearly recall them being publicised in left-wing journals, and triumphantly discussed by activists at the time.”

    I wasn’t questioning that Johanna – I was commenting on the opportunity seized by that oh so brave warrior blithering idiot in contending returning soldiers were routinely bludgeoned by the Coalition, when the spitting was actually from his rabid communist best friends.

    Here is an account of how the old goat is regarded by those who have the misfortune to know him – from Kev on April 9, 2013 at 12:36 pm:

    “… Numbers … served at least part of the time in a Rifle Company – I know because I was there in the same battalion.

    His complaints about conscription are not accepted by the broad veteran community. I had several Nashos in my petrol and to a man they take positive thoughts from their service.

    Numbers problem is that he is a rabid left winger and will take no positive thoughts from anything the broader community thinks of as worthwhile.

    By the way, there is no need to pay us respect just because we are veterans. The veteran community is a reflection of society so we have our good men and fools like every other group. It is our contribution or otherwise later in life that needs to be assessed alongside what we did as young men.”

    That last sentence speaks volumes.

  68. The “brass” in “brass hat” referred to the gold leaf which decorated high-ranking officers’ hats. The term was used by Rudyard Kipling (perhaps for the first time in print) in “In the Rukh”, collected in Many Inventions (1893):

    The gigantic German who was the head of the Woods and Forests of all India, Head Ranger from Burma to Bombay, had a habit of flitting batlike without warning from one place to another, and turning up exactly where he was least looked for. His theory was that sudden visitations, the discovery of shortcomings and a word-of-mouth upbraiding of a subordinate were infinitely better than the slow processes of correspondence, which might end in a written and official reprimand—a thing in after years to be counted against a Forest Officer’s record. As he explained it: ‘If I only talk to my boys like a Dutch uncle, dey say, “It was only dot damned old Muller,” and dey do better next dime. But if my fat-head clerk he write and say dot Muller der Inspecdor-General fail to onderstand and is much annoyed, first dot does no goot because I am not dere, and, second, der fool dot comes after me he may say to my best boys: “Look here, you haf been wigged by my bredecessor.” I tell you der big brass-hat pizness does not make der trees grow.’

    Even Banjo Paterson, in Happy Dispatches (1934), referred to officers as Brass hats:

    February 1900—Outside Cronje’s laager. Saw Lord Roberts for the first time. He came to our hospital to inspect some new style of tents we had brought over, and which are supposed to be better than the regulation tents. A very small, grizzled old man—they say he is seventy—but he sits his horse like a youngster. Though he is studiously polite to everybody, he has broken several generals already, so the brass hats and the red-collared popinjays of staff officers are wondering, when they go to bed at night, whether their jobs will be gone in the morning.

  69. johanna

    Yeah Rabz, my bad.

    But it’s bloody annoying to not be able to mention a significant period in Australian history without attracting the omega troll.

  70. candy

    That encounter still sounds very fresh in your mind, 1735099.

  71. Gab

    So it is confirmed – the slain Iranian “asylum seeker” left Iran not because he had any genuine fear of persecution, but to get a better job. In doing so, he planned to take a humanitarian visa place away from a black kid rotting away in a camp in East Africa somehwere. I’m sorry he was beaten to death by savages, but not sorry at all about his treatment right up to that point.

    Well said. And the Left applaud these people with money who push their way into this country expecting to be treated like royalty. How low the Left has sunk.

  72. Gab

    But it’s bloody annoying to not be able to mention a significant period in Australian history without attracting the omega troll.

    It’s fucking tiresome.

  73. Bruce

    More lies from Dribbling.The ALP was not against the “the whole deal from the beginning”.

  74. Nanuestalker

    Shut up Spud. We [I'm confident I'm not alone on this] don’t give a fuck aboat your experiences as a returned Nasho Masho.

  75. Access to recorded history is a bugger, when the re-write doesn’t sound quite right, eh?

    I couldn’t give a colonial about how it sounds, or how it is rewritten. I know my own experience.

    From

    Jellybeans in the Jungle pp133 – 134

    We had the option of two years’ military service or two years in jail. I did feel anger when I was confronted with hostility from many who had opposed the war, but my anger was not directed towards them.
    Any resentment was directed towards the politicians who sent us to war and then dropped us like hot potatoes when the tide of public opinion turned. Many Vietnam veterans felt this anger when they returned home, faced with indifference and hostility from a community they believed owed them gratitude.
    Many turned the anger and bitterness inward and destroyed themselves and their families in the process. I was fortunate, as I had no illusions whatever about what I had done. I understood the political realities, and was interested only in keeping myself and my mates alive. Getting home in one piece was reward enough for me. The only medal I coveted was the Returned from Active Service badge.

  76. Bruce

    And Dribbling will never ever put his hand out for any of the richly deserved benefits provided to Vets by the DVA. He’ll tell them stick ‘em where the sun don’t shine. Like fucking hell he will !

  77. stackja

    With the ALP this seems apt:

    Liberty Quotes
    “Even amoebas learn by trial and error, but some economists and politicians do not.” — W. Kurt Hauser

  78. More lies from Dribbling.The ALP was not against the “the whole deal from the beginning”.

    What Labor opposed consistently was conscription for service in Vietnam. Menzies’ “whole deal” was exactly that.
    To deny this is a lie.
    You need to take more care with your assertions, and forget ad hom abuse in an attempt to distract and derail the thread.

  79. And Dribbling will never ever put his hand out for any of the richly deserved benefits provided to Vets by the DVA. He’ll tell them stick ‘em where the sun don’t shine. Like fucking hell he will

    The only benefit I am eligible for is a war service pension.
    I don’t qualify on the basis of income and assets.

  80. Bruce

    Check your dates and your facts fool .

  81. Bruce

    Does it ever end,now more lies about elegibility for DVA future benefits.

  82. johanna

    Sorry, Mick, the problem arose from the fact that I scroll straight past certain posts without reading them. While it may cause the occasional misunderstanding, the gain is definitely worth the pain, IMO. :)

  83. I had several Nashos in my petrol

    I too hate that when it happens.

  84. Nanuestalker

    I had several Nashos in my petrol

    I would like just one and a match!* :)

    (*NADT)

  85. Check your dates and your facts fool .

    In 1966 Arthur Calwell (then opposition leader) survived an assassination attempt –

    Calwell is also notable for being only the second victim of an attempted political assassination in Australia (the first being Prince Alfred in 1868).[6] On 21 June 1966, Calwell addressed an anti-conscription rally at Mosman Town Hall in Sydney. As he was leaving the meeting, and just as his car was about to drive off, a 19-year-old student named Peter Kocan approached the passenger side of the vehicle and fired a sawn-off rifle at Calwell at point-blank range. Fortunately for Calwell, the closed window deflected the bullet, which lodged harmlessly in his coat lapel, and he sustained only minor facial injuries from broken glass.[7] Calwell later visited Kocan in the mental hospital (where he was confined for ten years), and through a regular correspondence encouraged his eventual rehabilitation

  86. Does it ever end,now more lies about elegibility (sic) for DVA future benefits.

    Do explain these “DVA future benefits”.
    There are lots of veterans out there who would be interested.

  87. lotocoti

    I, for one, appreciate our friend’s effort to lend some verisimilitude to that rather worn tale by including the correct date for the 1975 federal election. No doubt the next iteration will include further fine detail concerning a freshly ironed short-sleeved shirt by Pelaco, dove grey polyester Bogart slacks and a favoured pair of Hush Puppies, the uppers slightly scuffed in an altercation to prevent Jim Killen from beating a refugee baby to death.

  88. srr

    Do we really want people like Barati coming to this country and lowering the tone?
    (Architects, I mean, not Iranians per se).No.

    As a matter of fact I can think of a few native Architects we should deport to their spiritual home of Brussels.

  89. Bruce

    Australia had troops in Vietnam from 1962 onwards and initially had the support of the Labor Party,attempting to change the relevant dates doesn’t alter the facts,fool.

  90. Nanuestalker

    No doubt the next iteration will include further fine detail concerning a freshly ironed short-sleeved shirt by Pelaco, dove grey polyester Bogart slacks and a favoured pair of Hush Puppies, the uppers slightly scuffed in an altercation to prevent Jim Killen from beating a refugee baby to death.

    Don’t forget, the older the man the higher the pants!

  91. Leigh Lowe

    Sad that the best war story you have is the 1975 Battle of the Booth between two rabid lefties and a grey-haired lady in a twin-set.
    Must have been a morose scene later that evening as they gathered around the HMV black-and-white set at the local ALP sub-branch to watch Gough cop his right whack.

  92. 2dogs

    So, in your world Numbers, saying “Well he wasn’t fighting for me, and Vietnam wasn’t a real war anyway.” counts as abuse?

    Certainly, a difference of opinion, and not one I’d agree with, but it can hardly be described as “abuse”. What a very thin skin you must have.

  93. .

    We had the option of two years’ military service or two years in jail.

    Others with service experience at a roughly contemporaneous period have disputed this.

  94. Carpe Jugulum

    The only benefit I am eligible for is a war service pension.
    I don’t qualify on the basis of income and assets.

    Really?, considering you inject your past service into virtually every form of conversation i would assume you would be full TPI.

  95. be afraid

    the problem is that the govt has decided to place the nation on a war footing (good god – morrison a combination of col blimp and a tin pot general) and refusing the discuss on water issues. the general is complicit in this little performance and coping from time to time is what he can expect – with or without apologies – he should get used to it. for those who accept the military should never be questioned just think about the hazing, rapes, bullying, voyager cover up and then argue that they should be beyond questioning.

  96. Slayer of Memes

    My father and I were voting at Newmarket State School polling booth on 13 December 1975. This was almost 5 years to the day after my RTA in 1970. My father (who served in the RAAF in New Guinea) had always been angry about my callup, and made no secret of the fact.
    When the middle-aged booth worker shoved a how-to-vote card in my face, my father looked him in the eye and quietly said “You’re wasting your time, mate. He’s a Vietnam Veteran and wouldn’t vote for your mob in a month of Sundays”.
    That was exactly what he said – I remember it very clearly.
    The booth worker replied “Well he wasn’t fighting for me, and Vietnam wasn’t a real war anyway.”
    My response was laughter, but my father looked as if he was about to job this bloke, and I had to drag him away.

    Yet another (no I won’t call it a lie… let’s call it… what was that term he used about Kev Gillett’s recollection of the Muster Parade held by the CO of 7RAR… Oh yes…) “unverifiable anecdote” from the Digital Dude.

    By the way Digits, to categorise the statement “Well he wasn’t fighting for me, and Vietnam wasn’t a real war anyway” as abuse is somewhat ironic given the real abusive comments you throw at other posters on this site.

  97. Others with service experience at a roughly contemporaneous period have disputed this.

    I refer you to the AWM website.
    I doubt they are part of a Left wing conspiracy.

    From the record -

    Men who failed without ‘good reason’ to register for national service were considered for prosecution. The fact that a man’s birthday was not drawn, or that he was in a class of persons not called up, was disregarded. Once the DLNS decided to prosecute, the case was referred to the Deputy Crown Prosecutor and heard in a Magistrate’s Court. If convicted, defaulters could be sentenced to imprisonment for a period equal to the period of national service they were liable to render: up to two years.

  98. Really?, considering you inject your past service into virtually every form of conversation i would assume you would be full TPI.

    AFAIK talking about my service does not make me totally or partially incapacitated.
    I know it irritates the hell out of the rabid Right when I post about it here, but that’s not considered an eligibility by DVA.

  99. james

    I thought numbers would be eligible for NVA benefits by now. Being the disgusting traitor that he is.

  100. Brian of Moorabbin
    We had the option of two years’ military service or two years in jail.

    Others with service experience at a roughly contemporaneous period have disputed this.

    Indeed, Kev Gillett posted here to state that the 7RAR CO called a parade at which the option to go or stay was put to everyone in the battalion.

    Of course, Numbers dismissed this as “an unverifable anecdote“.

    I wonder, does Bob have any proof of the statement made by the booth-worker? Or is this another…. “unverifable anecdote”?

  101. johanna

    Another thread hijacked.

    How long, O Doomlord, how long?

  102. Another thread hijacked.

    Go back and read the thread.

    The gist of the thread is a discussion about the ALP’s attitude to the ADF.
    Every single one of my posts has been on topic in the sense that I’ve history to take a look at how the Coalition has treated the ADF. This is not “derailing the thread” .
    What does derail the thread is ad hom abuse.
    On a quick count, 13 of the last 20 posts directed at me contain some form of gratuitous abuse.
    That’s what “derails the thread” .

    If you can’t hack it, cease the abuse and stick to discussion.

  103. lotocoti

    I wonder …

    Given that Craig Thomson has a better Craig Thomson Plausibility rating than our friend, why do you wonder?

  104. Brian of Moorabbin

    Natural curiosity lotocoti, nothing more…

    Of course Bob will supply us with the evidence he holds which proves his statement… lest he wish it to be dismissed out of hand as an “unverifable anecdote”, much like he did to Kev Gillett’s statement….

  105. Leigh Lowe

    On a quick count, 13 of the last 20 posts directed at me contain some form of gratuitous abuse.

    Fuck off!
    I make that 14 of 21.
    A bit retarded when it comes to picking up on the message, eh?

  106. Baldrick

    johanna
    #1208835, posted on March 1, 2014 at 4:37 pm
    Another thread hijacked.

    How long, O Doomlord, how long?

    Totally agree johanna. How did we go from Stephen Conroy to Numbers uninteresting war stories … the mind boggles!

  107. Nanuestalker

    How long, O Doomlord, how long?

    I would have defenestrated the McKim long ago.
    ‘Nam, ‘nam, ‘nam … GMAFB!

    Please fuck off Spud.

  108. jumpnmcar

    Another thread hijacked.

    yep.
    And the scum turned your word ” hijacked ” into ” derail ”
    He was on an aeroplane that was derailed once.

    I vote to ban the shitbag.
    Later dudes.

  109. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    I see stalin’s butt-boy, Numbers the racist bigot, has successfully derailed another thread. I have been quietly watching this, wondering if Grigory M might comment, but he has not.

    And this is a thread derailment. The subject of the thread is the open contempt the recent disastrous ALP-greenfilth government had for the ADF. Conroy’s abuse of a very fine serving officer last week (Campbell is not permitted to respond to such an attack and Conroy knows it), the despicable Smith’s rancid attacks on Commodore Kafer, where he patently denied him natural justice, the insane hollowing out of the ADF by Gillard at a time of sharply rising regional tensions based around Chinese aggression – these are the subject of this thread.

    Numbers has completely derailed the thread and turned it to being all about him and his views on conscription and bloody Vietnam.

    Again.

    What this spavined, frog-sodomising imbecile is utterly incapable of understanding is that the ADF role in Vietnam was an honourable one in a just war. We, the USA, South Korea and ARVN were buying time against unprovoked NVA aggression, enough time for the recently decolonised states of South east Asia to be able to stabilise their societies and develop their economies to the point where they were able to resist communist aggression by themselves. As a result the Hukbalahap and New People’s Army In Philippines, Malayan National Liberation Army, and Parti Komunis Indonesia were crushed and the advance of totalitarianism were stopped cold.

    The left wing of the ALP has never forgiven the ADF for its role in stopping totalitarian aggression in Asia. Many (but certainly not all) senior ALP members despise the ADF and wish it ill. When they get to positions of civil authority over the ADF, we get abusive conduct as displayed by Smith and by the vile maggot Conroy.

    Which is exactly why the foetid totalitarian-loving racist Numbers moved so fast to derail the thread, and to turn it into ‘I was in Vietnam! It was an evil war by lickspittle running-dog capitalist lackeys against the glorious revolution! The ALP supported the revolution! And opposed the evil war!’

    What he’s actually displaying is quite deft thread hijack, specifically to derail the topic and avoid examination of just how much the ALP despises the ADF.

    And it has gone on long enough, now is time to point out what the disgusting little piece of street-filth has done.

  110. Carpe Jugulum

    AFAIK talking about my service does not make me totally or partially incapacitated.

    Well considering you go the full victim i would naturally assume you would be a TPI securely locked away in Heidelburg.

    Here is a tip asshat, i don’t try to make everything about me being a veteran the subject of every conversation and the fact you do just proves what a tiresome boor you are.

  111. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Stalin’s butt-boy Numbers the cowardly racist and bigot:

    The gist of the thread is a discussion about the ALP’s attitude to the ADF.

    Note this well, because it is one of the vanishingly rare true things this the needle-dicked toe-rag has ever said on this board.

    Every single one of my posts has been on topic…

    This is an open claim that he has remained entirely on -topic. However, then he slips in a qualifier.

    .

    ..in the sense that I’ve history to take a look at how the Coalition has treated the ADF.

    This is an entirely different topic 180 degrees away from ‘how the ALP has treated the ADF’. here, he actually openly admits how he has hijacked and derailed the topic. And he does it in the way any Goebbels-wannabe does – he lies. And then he pretends the lie is true.

    This is, BTW, pure Alinskyite tactics.

    This is not “derailing the thread” .

    Then he follows with another bald-faced lie. he’s only turned the discussion from “a discussion about the ALP’s attitude to the ADF” into “…look[ing] at how the Coalition has treated the ADF.”

    And then he has the brazen gall to lie through his teeth by inventing an utterly specious claim this 180-degree turn-around is not derailing the thread!

    What does derail the thread is ad hom abuse.

    Then he vomits up another lie. Abuse is not thread derailment: has the thread devolved into a discussion of abuse? No. So this is a lie, and again it is pure Alinsky, it’s an effort to claim moral high ground by making the thread hijacking little arsehole the victim.

    On a quick count, 13 of the last 20 posts directed at me contain some form of gratuitous abuse.
    That’s what “derails the thread” .

    And here is his weepy, grovelling claim to victim status. ‘Oh, look at poor little me’, weeps this vicious little troll, ‘I am being persecuted!’

    Well, dry your flinty, racist lying eyes, princess. You have been exposed for what you are, and what you have done. Youa re an amoral and thoroughly evil bastard.

    Fellow Cats, you have been subject to one of the better emotion-based, Alinskyite attacks I have seen in recent weeks. Take a long hard look at the tactics this squalid little scumbag used. See where he played you, look at how the filthy animal exploited your decency and your emotions for his own ends.

    And learn to identify and fight subhuman filth like Numbers.

  112. johanna

    Well, a big part of the problem is that some Cats see his trollbait as catnip and can’t resist responding.

    Do what I do – scroll past without reading.

  113. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Gab, check your email.

  114. ralph

    You are all too precious – happy to slag off on public servants but treat the military like saints. The same military that covered up with HMAS Voyager, hazing, bastardisation etc. Campbell is Morrison’s merkin and while ever he fronts up press conferences with Field Marshall Morrison he will be considered to be a participant in this performance that denies basic information to the public.

  115. We, the USA, South Korea and ARVN were buying time against unprovoked NVA aggression, enough time for the recently decolonised states of South east Asia to be able to stabilise their societies and develop their economies to the point where they were able to resist communist aggression by themselves.

    IQ50 rewrites history.

    This is closer to the truth -

    he Vietnam war was misguided from the start. It demonstrates very clearly the arrogance of power. Most of the major architects of the containment policy that lead to Vietnam–George Kennan, McGeorge Bundy, Robert MacNamara–have unequivocally admitted they were wrong about the Vietnam war. “Containment” was a flawed policy, flawed by its indifference to the history of Southeast Asia. Its leaders’ obsession with “communism” led the US deeper and deeper into a tragedy. They believed in America’s mission, and in the automatic superiority of everything America did. They were wrong, and so was the war.

    This is one of the most succinct critiques of the theory of containment, which led to the tragedy that was Vietnam. No amount of historic revision will change the facts of history.

    IQ50 has a sad habit of ratcheting up abuse as his “arguments” (usually verbose unfounded opinion) fall in a heap.

    See 1208899.

  116. Brian of Moorabbin

    Speaking of verbose unfounded opinion Bob, got any evidence to prove your “unverifable anecdote” about the booth-worker?

  117. Beertruk

    Leigh Lowe
    #1208598, posted on March 1, 2014 at 1:19 pm
    Note to Jabba’s employers at Nine and the Hun. You might want to get your company medicos to have a look at Jabba. There is demonstrable evidence here that his cognitive facilities are failing.

    Alternatively, his digestive facilities are going gangbusters.

    Jabba is on a lighter diet since Christmas.
    He has cut out fried dimmies for breakfast … it’s only steamed from now on.

    Jabba

  118. stackja

    ralph
    #1208944, posted on March 1, 2014 at 6:18 pm

    denies basic information to the public people smugglers.

  119. feelthebern

    Can one complain to the press council about Oakes , similar to Kingston complaining about the Tele coverage of Ashby?

  120. stackja

    feelthebern
    #1208990, posted on March 1, 2014 at 6:52 pm
    Can one complain to the press council about Oakes , similar to Kingston complaining about the Tele coverage of Ashby?

    Probably, but Oakes is one of their mates. A complaint is not likely to get much support.

  121. johanna

    Yep, good idea, feelthe bern.

  122. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    SMith was the worst of Defence Ministers and people in Russell spoke of his contempt for the ADF. In the end it supposedly took open revolt by the service chiefs to sort him out on the Kafer issue – and there was no doubt inside the ADF he was nailing kafer to the wall and denying him natural justice.

    And who can forget Latham’s ‘military meat-heads’ comment?

    _________________________

    Numbers you loathesome racist swine – you’ve been completely outed for derailing this thread with your Alinskyite ‘Vietnam’ schtick.

    Go away.

  123. Leigh Lowe

    Can one complain to the press council about Oakes , similar to Kingston complaining about the Tele coverage of Ashby?

    Who funds the Press Council?
    I understand it is media organisations.
    Instead of bleating about Disney in the Tele, just cut their fucking funding off.

  124. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    We had the choice of two years’ military service or two years in jail

    Numbers, the AWM website you yourself cited as evidence gives the actual number of those jailed for refusing to obey a call up notice as FOURTEEN (my emphasis).

  125. Leigh Lowe

    Numbers, the AWM website you yourself cited as evidence gives the actual number of those jailed for refusing to obey a call up notice as FOURTEEN (my emphasis).

    I was pretty young at the time and my older brothers and cousins went through the call-up process, but I don’t remember much talk of the jail alternative.
    Do we know how long the 14 served?
    I’ll bet it was days … not the two year maximum.

  126. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Do we know how long the 14 served?

    Don’t know, but my memory of the time was that the jail option was made quite plain.

    “The most popular illegal way to avoid national service was simply to fail to register:almost 12,000 youths took this course between 1965 and 1972, and only about 200, on average, were prosecuted per year. The rest slipped through the net.” (Paul Ham, “Viet Nam, the Australian War”, page 285.)

  127. Numbers, the AWM website you yourself cited as evidence gives the actual number of those jailed for refusing to obey a call up notice as FOURTEEN (my emphasis).

    I was accused of posting bullshit viz that there was not a two year statuary penalty for refusing callup.

    It doesn’t matter whether fourteen or forty thousand were convicted – what I posted was correct.

    Irritating, isn’t it?

  128. Brian of Moorabbin

    So now that you’ve posted that Bob, how about posting some evidence to back up your “unverifable anecdote” about the booth-worker?

  129. Leigh Lowe

    I was accused of posting bullshit viz that there was not a two year statuary penalty for refusing callup.

    Actually it was bullshit.
    You stated that it was a direct choice between Nasho or two years in the lock-up.
    That implies that all eligible non-registered candidates went in the slot for two years.
    Rather than the reality of 0.05% of all candidates getting seven-fourteen days.

  130. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    We had the CHOICE of two years’ military service OR two years in jail

    Your own words, Numbers. Your own book.

    So 12,000 men failed to register, so what, over eight years, between 1965 and 1972, two hundred a year are prosecuted makes 1600 that were prosecuted, of which fourteen actually went to jail?

    Irritating, isn’t it?

  131. Nanuestalker

    two year statuary[sic] penalty
    I’m sure you were a useful as a statue fuckwit!

  132. Leigh Lowe

    Thanks ZK2A.
    He has made that totally misleading point several times here.
    He should remember this isn’t afternoon story-time with Uncle Bob for the crayon munchers.

  133. johanna

    You could also be a Conscientious Objector, or work in non-combat areas.

    Full of shit. Go away.

  134. Ivan Denisovich

    IQ50 rewrites history.

    Nope. Mk50 is correct:

    One enduring myth is that the West became involved in the Vietnam War to prevent communism spreading, but that it turned out to be a civil war involving nationalists who wanted unification. In fact, the Vietnam War was fomented by the communist North. The communist North was instructed and abetted by communist China and supported by the rest of the communist bloc.

    This has now been admitted by the Communist Party of Vietnam. In its official biography of Ho Chi Minh, it says: “Ho Chi Minh … felt the need for active propaganda and organisational work in order to step up the revolutionary movement in colonial countries, including Vietnam. He deemed it his task to spread communist doctrine in Asia in general and in Indochina particularly.”

    In its internal party directive, the Chinese Communist Party declared its task to be “to assist in every possible way the communist parties and people in all oppressed nations in Asia to win their liberation”. That is why, from 1950 to 1978, China gave North Vietnam at least US$15 billion to US$20 billion in economic aid, and sent at least 300,000 military and other personnel during the height of the Vietnam war. The famous battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954 was fought largely with Chinese weapons and under Chinese direction. The Soviet Union also poured billions of rubles into Vietnam. By the 1970s Soviet aid amounted to one billion rubles or more annually, without which the Northern communists could not have continued the war.

    In his autobiography, Lee Kuan Yew noted that Singapore and other Asian countries were saved from communism by the Vietnam war. He said:

    “Although American intervention failed in Vietnam, it bought time for the rest of Southeast Asia. In 1965, when the US military moved massively into South Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, and the Philippines faced internal threats from armed communist insurgencies, and the communist underground was still active in Singapore … America’s action [in Vietnam] enabled non-communist Southeast Asia to put their own houses in order. By 1975, they were in better shape to stand up to the communists. Had there been no US intervention, the will of these countries to resist them would have melted and Southeast Asia would most likely have gone communist.”

    http://www.newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=2003

  135. That implies that all eligible non-registered candidates went in the slot for two years.

    No it doesn’t. It is a simple statement of fact.
    Your “implication” suggestion is verballing.
    It happens a lot on the Cat.
    Give it away.

  136. You could also be a Conscientious Objector, or work in non-combat areas.

    It was up to the magistrate as to whether you were a Conscientious Objector.
    The work in “non-combat area” meme is nonsense.

  137. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Now the racist tick is playing semantics – and STILL has the thread derailed into talking about Vietnam.

  138. The myth –

    Now after 30 years, what has communism brought to the Vietnamese people?

    Vietnam has now declined to the rank of one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in the world. Before the end of the war, South Vietnam was on a par with other developing countries in the region. Its annual per capita income was $500, worth $4,000 in 2004 dollars. Now, after 30 years of “liberation”, the annual per capita income has declined to $470. Hanoi has money to send two military divisions to Laos to crush anti-communist uprisings but has no money to feed children. UNICEF has reported an alarming number of Vietnamese children forced into prostitution, some as young as five or six years old.

    The reality –

    This case study illustrates Viet Nam’s progress in economic development. The story describes the nature of the progress, analysis of the factors that have contributed to progress and lessons for policy makers.

    Viet Nam’s recent economic development has been exceptional. In the 1970s, the country was emerging from decades of war, which had decimated the country and its infrastructure and left many people dead and millions injured or displaced. Now Viet Nam is set to join the ranks of middle-income countries by 2011.

    After the reunification of the North and the South in 1975, Viet Nam faced an economic crisis and declining standards of living, including serious food shortages. This undermined the legitimacy of the government. In response, the government began a process of economic reforms, shifting towards a market-based economy by using a trial-and-error approach. A decisive political shift came in the late 1980s, and this enabled significant economic, social and political reforms which contributed to noteworthy improvements in economic conditions and in human development. Equity and social cohesion were important components in these reform policies, as the government saw these as crucial to maintaining its legitimacy.

    The rate of economic growth and poverty reduction since the 1990s has been unsurpassed by most developing countries, although challenges remain with regard to rising inequality, environmental degradation and corruption.

    And -

    Vietnam is one of the best performing economies in the world over the last decade. Real GDP has on average grown by 7.3 percent per year during 1995-2005 and per capita income by 6.2 percent per year. The economy has proven resilient to shocks and negative impacts from SARS, avian influenza, poor weather, high commodity prices, inflation, and anti-dumping suits. In US dollar terms, income per capita rose from US$260 in 1995 to a 2007 level of US$835. At this pace Vietnam would enter the ranks of middle income countries by surpassing US$1,000 per capita in 2010.

  139. Armadillo

    FMD. You are an absolute disgrace nUmbers.

  140. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    It was up to the magistrate as to whether you were a Conscientious Objector

    “….yet most applicants were granted full exemption: of 1,242 conscientious objector cases that went to court during the war, 72 percent were granted total exemption, 14 percent non – combatant duties and 14 percent refused exemption.” (“A Nation at War” Peter Edwards, Page 370, “Viet Nam, the Australian War” Paul Ham, page 284.)

  141. jumpnmcar

    Hahaha! the dickhead
    .72 percent were granted total exemption
    I take it back, this is getting hilarious.

  142. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Good Lord.

    The totalitarian stalin-sucking fanboi is defending a repressive communist regime which slaughtered tens of thousands and inflicted so much misery on the population that it had to turn to capitalist economic reforms to save its blood-soaked apparatchiks.

    And claiming that this proves they are the nice guys!

    Those who doubted me description of this squalid scumbag as a stalinist want to recant now?

  143. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    @jumpnmcar – There was one sticking point. If you could prove to the court that you were genuinely opposed to all forms of war, any form of war, you had quite a good chance of being granted exemption, but if you opposed the Viet Nam war in particular, the National Service Act did not recognize objection to a particular war. One John Zarb claimed conscientious objection to the Viet Nam War, but said he would fight to defend Australia from an invasion. He drew the full two years.

  144. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    Stand down Mk50, your work is done and done well.

    It’s hallucinating incoherently now – malaria, I suspect, from sitting in the rain peeling spuds for ten months.

    I lived through those times and well remember what happened with the call up, the fight, the mood, the politics and the international moves which followed WWII. The man’s a bloody liar.

  145. johanna

    Yup, if you were a Quaker, for example, meaning that your religious beliefs prohibited participating in any form of combat, you were granted a Conscientious Objection.

    Why would he lie about this?

  146. Andrew

    I see 12 hours later the thread still hasn’t recovered.

  147. Ivan Denisovich

    The totalitarian stalin-sucking fanboi is defending a repressive communist regime which slaughtered tens of thousands and inflicted so much misery on the population that it had to turn to capitalist economic reforms to save its blood-soaked apparatchiks.

    True. And ignored the issue raised, namely that the war bought time for the rest of south-east Asia to defend itself against communist plans to “liberate” nations in the region.

    The myth –
    The reality –

    LOL. Someone get under your skin?

  148. True. And ignored the issue raised, namely that the war bought time for the rest of south-east Asia to defend itself against communist plans to “liberate” nations in the region.

    This is not an issue.
    It is an assertion based on ignorance.

    From – The Futility of U.S. Intervention in Regional Conflicts by Barbara Conry Cato Policy Analysis No. 209 May 19, 1994

    Regional conflicts have greatly increased since the end of the Cold War, a trend that promises to continue. As Washington gropes for a policy toward regional wars, military intervention frequently emerges as an option. Except in the rare cases in which regional conflicts threaten American national security, however, military intervention in regional conflicts is ill-advised.

    As tragic as many of the regional wars are, most cannot be resolved by American military intervention. In fact, military involvement often aggravates the situation. Furthermore, intervention can create a number of problems for the United States, including a rise in anti-American sentiment, diminished American credibility if the mission fails, domestic skepticism about future military operations even when legitimate U.S. interests might be involved, and threats to vital interests where none previously existed.

    Proponents of intervention cite a number of interests, both security related and humanitarian, as justifications for U.S. military involvement in regional wars. The most common, and fallacious, argument for intervention is that global instability is a threat to U.S. security. That argument relies heavily on the discredited domino theory and the notion of deterrence by example. Global instability does not, per se, threaten vital American interests and is the normal state of affairs. A policy that views disorder or instability as a security threat would force the United States to expend vast resources in pursuit of an unattainable objective.

    Rather than attempt to stifle regional conflicts through military intervention, the United States should encourage regional initiatives. Washington must, however, recognize that many regional conflicts are so deeply rooted that no outside party, from within or outside the region, will succeed in ending the fighting.

  149. The totalitarian stalin-sucking fanboi is defending a repressive communist regime which slaughtered tens of thousands and inflicted so much misery on the population that it had to turn to capitalist economic reforms to save its blood-soaked apparatchiks.

    Mr Verbosity completely ignores the fact that most Vietnamese living now have no memory of war. When I was in the country in 1970, most had no memory of peace.

    He also demonstrates his deep ignorance of the history of the conflict by his assertion that the bulk of the casualties were created by the Communists.

    Paul Ham, who is probably the most thoroughly researched Australian writer on this conflict describes the reality -

    The human cost of the war, in terms of personal grief and moral degradation, is immeasurable. In our helplessness, we surrender to statistics: 520 Australian soldiers dead and about 3,000 wounded; 58,193 Americans dead and about 300,000 wounded ; 220,357 South Vietnamese troops dead or missing in action and 1.17 million wounded; 666,000 Viet Cong and North Vietnamese troops dead, with the possibility that a third were civilians mistaken for enemy troops or deemed legitimate targets. Of South Vietnamese civilian casualties, about 325,000 were confirmed killed (rising to a million, depending on your source and definition of a ‘civilian’), 30 per cent of whom were children younger than 13. In total, an estimated 65,000 North Vietnamese civilians died as a result of US bombing. The Viet Cong assassinated 36,725 civilians between 1957 and 1972;47 the North Vietnamese and/or Viet Cong assassinated 166,000 South Vietnamese civilians. About three million Vietnamese people are believed to have suffered herbicide poisoning. In total, 3.5 million people died in Vietnam over fifteen years; in the Korean War, by contrast, 2.8 million people -mostly Chinese -died in three years; World War I inflicted 8.5 million war deaths and 15 million total deaths; World War II killed 50 million people – military personnel and civilians -according to conservative median estimates

    So many deaths and so much suffering was the outcome of war which was fought on a simplistic and fatuous series of premises, accepted by American politicians, that all Communists were part of a world wide conspiracy, that only ideology mattered and that nationalism was irrelevant, and that the Chinese Communists were hand in glove with their Vietnamese counterparts.

    The attitudes of armchair generals, like Mk50, exhibiting this limited and arrogant view of security policy, are responsible for the unmitigated disaster that was Vietnam. The fact that he so desperately clings to the discredited domino meme long after history has demonstrated how misguided it was is a sign of willful denial.

    And the fact that he uses the epithet “Communist” to describe anyone who doesn’t share his extremist views puts him in the same cage as those who brought the once proud American military to its knees in Vietnam.

    I post about Vietnam in the hope that we can learn something from the history, and to help make sure that my kids aren’t subject to the same bastardry that I was.

    And I don’t consider myself a victim. I am a survivor, who, like most Australian veterans, has lived a successful life (4 great kids, a marriage that has lasted 33 years, a successful career and a profitable business).

    All that the history can offer now is an opportunity for reconciliation. I have found it personally on my journeys back to Vietnam, where meetings with the old enemy have put the experience in perspective.

    Unfortunately, there are still some in this country (like Mk50) who maintain bitterness and spite in their hearts. That will go when they go, and my kids will never have known it.

    I’m grateful for that.

  150. Bruce

    So the defective genetic material of the Dribbling Dickhead has been passed on to another generation. Well fuck me !

  151. Well fuck me !

    Well said.

    Judging by the content of your posts, your head was f**ked a long time ago.

  152. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Shorter stalin’s butt-boy:
    me. Vietnam. Mememe. Vietnam.
    me. Vietnam. Mememe. Vietnam.
    me. Vietnam. Mememe. Vietnam.

    Boring. Even the tactics are cringeworthily boring. Having been bammed, he’s now shifting ground once more.

  153. Boring.

    Mk50 lacks any capacity to respond to reason with anything but abuse.
    His nonsense about both responsibility for the war and the casualties has been refuted, pulling the old domino theory out of his arse makes him look foolish – and now I’ve been bammed?
    So funny.
    You’re up that river in Eqypt old mate.
    Give it away – go shoot yourself in the foot with one of your toys.
    You’ll look slightly less foolish than you do now.

  154. Leigh Lowe

    Judging by the content of your posts, your head was f**ked a long time ago.

    And barely 12 hours after posting several complaints about “ad-hom” attacks on his own good self.
    Not only is it a fuckwit.
    It is a fuckwit with a faulty memory.

  155. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    You are a foul totalitarian fanboi and a racist.

    You have also entirely derailed this thread, which I fully covered above. Now you are attempting to re-invigorate your derailment, something I treat with the same level of out-of-hand contempt I reserve for internet vermin such as you.

  156. Leigh Lowe

    ….. most Vietnamese living now have no memory of war.

    Explained by the fact that the Cong shot so many after they took over and even today, mentioning bad memories from South of the border is “career limiting” at best.

  157. Cong shot so many

    Really?
    From Ham’s stats –

    666,000 Viet Cong and North Vietnamese troops dead, with the possibility that a third were civilians mistaken for enemy troops or deemed legitimate targets. Of South Vietnamese civilian casualties, about 325,000 were confirmed killed (rising to a million, depending on your source and definition of a ‘civilian’), 30 per cent of whom were children younger than 13. In total, an estimated 65,000 North Vietnamese civilians died as a result of US bombing.

  158. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Cong shot so many

    Really?

    I read Leigh Lowe’s post as “Cong shot so many AFTER THEY TOOK OVER……..”

  159. Bruce

    I like the way he responds to “Dribbling Dickhead”. He certainly knows who and what he is.

  160. Leigh Lowe

    I read Leigh Lowe’s post as “Cong shot so many AFTER THEY TOOK OVER……..”

    Yes.
    After Saigon fell to the Commies.
    After Uncle Sam had left.
    Retribution against anyone in South Vietnam who wanted some personal freedom.
    Or even just for being Southerners.
    Got it now fuckwit?
    He is Humpty Fucking Dumpty from Alice in Wonderland …. “Words mean exactly what I want them to mean”.

  161. Ivan Denisovich

    The fact that he so desperately clings to the discredited domino meme long after history has demonstrated how misguided it was is a sign of willful denial.

    I’d like to think it’s just leftist naivety but it’s more likely willful blindness. From my earlier link:

    This has now been admitted by the Communist Party of Vietnam. In its official biography of Ho Chi Minh, it says: “Ho Chi Minh … felt the need for active propaganda and organisational work in order to step up the revolutionary movement in colonial countries, including Vietnam. He deemed it his task to spread communist doctrine in Asia in general and in Indochina particularly.”

    In its internal party directive, the Chinese Communist Party declared its task to be “to assist in every possible way the communist parties and people in all oppressed nations in Asia to win their liberation”. That is why, from 1950 to 1978, China gave North Vietnam at least US$15 billion to US$20 billion in economic aid, and sent at least 300,000 military and other personnel during the height of the Vietnam war. The famous battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954 was fought largely with Chinese weapons and under Chinese direction. The Soviet Union also poured billions of rubles into Vietnam. By the 1970s Soviet aid amounted to one billion rubles or more annually, without which the Northern communists could not have continued the war.

    In his autobiography, Lee Kuan Yew noted that Singapore and other Asian countries were saved from communism by the Vietnam war. He said:

    “Although American intervention failed in Vietnam, it bought time for the rest of Southeast Asia. In 1965, when the US military moved massively into South Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, and the Philippines faced internal threats from armed communist insurgencies, and the communist underground was still active in Singapore … America’s action [in Vietnam] enabled non-communist Southeast Asia to put their own houses in order. By 1975, they were in better shape to stand up to the communists. Had there been no US intervention, the will of these countries to resist them would have melted and Southeast Asia would most likely have gone communist.”

    And:

    General Vo Nguyen Giap, in his memoirs, admitted that news media reporting of the war and the anti-war demonstrations that followed the Tet Offensive surprised him. Communist colonel Bui Tin was among the North Vietnamese delegates who accepted the surrender of South Vietnam. He made clear that “the anti-war movement in the United States, which led to the collapse of political will in Washington, was essential to our strategy”.

    Add this:

    As early as 1962, it was clear that the myth of the Vietcong as a “peasant uprising” was finished, and South Vietnam was facing a massive assault by forces trained armed and led by Hanoi.

    The North’s General Giap put it bluntly to the Frenchman Bernard Fall:

    “If we win in Vietnam, we can win everywhere.”

    Our political leaders, lacking an infallible crystal ball, could not have anticipated the problems of a democratic country waging war against a ruthless totalitarian regime; the unending self-examination, the constant breast-beating, of a free society; the capacity to deceive of the communist propaganda apparatus, the willingness of much of the media to peddle the crudest propaganda from Moscow and Hanoi, the lauding of “gentle Uncle Ho (in reality a Comintern operator since 1919); the transformation of the “Peace” movement into a pro-Hanoi war movement – our Fourth Front, as the communists called it- or the “elegant bug-out” organised by Kissinger.

    http://www.newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=1121

  162. Our political leaders, lacking an infallible crystal ball, could not have anticipated the problems of a democratic country waging war against a ruthless totalitarian

    So South Vietnam was a “democratic country”.

    Now that is funny.

  163. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Shorter stalin’s butt-boy:
    me. Vietnam. Mememe. Vietnam.
    me. Vietnam. Mememe. Vietnam.
    me. Vietnam. Mememe. Vietnam.

    Still boring, you scampering butt-boy.

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