Enjoy the 18C irony

This morning Waleed Aly violates 18C with an offensive racist rant while ostensibly defending the law as it currently stands (emphasis added):

That’s what struck me most about the proposed legislation. It’s just so . . . well, white. In fact it’s probably the whitest piece of proposed legislation I’ve encountered during my lifetime. It trades on all the assumptions about race that you’re likely to hold if, in your experience, racism is just something that other people complain about.

Subsection (3) – mostly ignored to this point – is perhaps the most subtly revealing. Earlier subsections make it unlawful to do something that is “reasonably likely” to vilify or intimidate someone on the basis of race. But reasonably likely according to whom? Who gets to decide whether something is intimidating or vilifying? Subsection (3) provides the answer.

Whether something is “reasonably likely” to vilify is “to be determined by the standards of an ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community”, it begins. Fair enough. But then it adds in the most pointed way: “not by the standards of any particular group within the Australian community”. That’s code. It means, not by the standard of whatever racial minority is being vilified. Not the ordinary reasonable wog, gook or sand nigger; the ordinary reasonable Australian. And what race is this hypothetical “ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community” meant to be, exactly? If you answered that they have no particular race, then you’ve just given the whitest answer possible. It’s the answer that assumes there is such a thing as racial neutrality. Of course, only white people have the chance to be neutral because in our society only white is deemed normal; only whiteness is invisible.

Every other race is marked by its difference, by its conspicuousness – by its non-whiteness. White people are not non-Asians or non-blacks. They aren’t “ethnic” as the term is popularly used. If the “ordinary reasonable Australian” has no race, then whether or not we admit it, that person is white by default and brings white standards and experiences to assessing the effects of racist behaviour. Anything else would be too particular.

This matters because – if I may speak freely – plenty of white people (even ordinary reasonable ones) are good at telling coloured people what they should and shouldn’t find racist, without even the slightest awareness that they might not be in prime position to make that call.

Don’t you just love it? The phrase, “if I may speak freely” thrown in like that. Well actually Waleed; No. You can’t speak freely. That’s the whole point of the campaign against 18C. So that you can speak freely. So that you can make as many comments likely to offend, insult, or humiliate “white” people as you like.

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591 Responses to Enjoy the 18C irony

  1. Aristogeiton

    Fisky
    #1244661, posted on March 30, 2014 at 12:06 am
    There are extremists in Israel, just as there are extremists in every society. But in every society the majority just get on with life and are as moderate as you or me. Perhaps more so than Cohenite, who is a monumental bigot..

    This is not true for a lot of Islamic societies – in Nigeria, Pakistan, and Egypt, you will find super-majorities in favour of FGM, killing apostates, and stoning homosexuals. There is no moderate majority there.

    Let’s not forget that cohenite argues that there was no such thing as a moderate muslim, not that the moderates constitute a minority.

  2. Gab

    Nilk

    have you read this book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat, by Dr. Peter Hammond? And/or have you heard of Hammond and would you recommend a book by him if you have?

  3. Let’s not forget that cohenite argues that there was no such thing as a moderate muslim, not that the moderates constitute a minority.

    Ahh, the shifting sands of a losing position readjusting itself so as to seem as if it was on the side of the angels all along.

  4. Aristogeiton

    Steve at the Pub
    #1244674, posted on March 30, 2014 at 12:12 am
    Let’s not forget that cohenite argues that there was no such thing as a moderate muslim, not that the moderates constitute a minority.

    Ahh, the shifting sands of a losing position readjusting itself so as to seem as if it was on the side of the angels all along.

    Fuck you. Quote me where I have maintained otherwise.

  5. nilk, Iron Bogan

    Thanks, Gab, btw.

    And as for the earth being created in six days, followed by a rest on the seventh. I wasn’t there so I don’t know. I believe that the earth was created in whatever time it took, and seeing as Genesis was orally handed down (am I mixing metaphors?) amongst people who were not as advanced as we are, it may be that it literally took God six days or it took longer and each “day” was more like an epoch.

    I don’t know, and I’m more worried about creeping sharia, where primary schools incorporate hijabs into the uniform code, and the girls have to wear tracksuit pants and long sleeves all year round while the boys get to wear shorts and short sleeves in summer.

  6. jupes

    No one considers Greek Cypriots extremists for wanting the Turks out of Cyprus. No one considers Roman Catholics extremists for what a minority did in Northern Ireland.

    Neither of those groups blow up Aussies in Bali to make their point.

    You mean moderate Jews like the Rabbis who conduct circumcisions using horrifically taboo methods?

    Don’t verbal me matey. No. I mean any Jew. Muslims don’t differentiate.

    But in every society the majority just get on with life and are as moderate as you or me.

    Yeah like in Gaza. Moderate as Fuck.

    The difference between me and you is I judge people by their actions. On every frontier where Muslims in sufficient numbers come into contact with Kaffirs, there is conflict.

  7. Abu Chowdah

    This is not true for a lot of Islamic societies – in Nigeria, Pakistan, and Egypt, you will find super-majorities in favour of FGM, killing apostates, and stoning homosexuals. There is no moderate majority there.

    Indeed, those countries have a preponderance of barbarians. And the chauvinistic culture is vile.

    But how many Muslims are there in Australia? Probably a lot. Do they threaten you? Do they all engage in activities designed to undermine the nation or are they mostly engaged in living their lives, paying off homes and educating their children? The latter, of course, is the truth.

    As noted, I am not interested in defending any ideology. The fact is most Muslims are moderate in their thoughts and deeds, so let’s not piss the bed about it.

    Now if you asked me whether we should import large numbers of people whose ideology and culture isn’t in harmony with the Western liberal heritage if equality, democracy and pluralism, then that is a larger discussion that goes beyond the small point I was making here (i.e., that Cohenite is a hypocritical bigot whose vicious bloviation proves Waleed Aly’s tedious, adolescent trolling objective).

    The answer, of course is NO. Just as I think allowing Scottish union reps to emigrate here was a fucking mistake.

    As I said earlier, the Right has been played by Aly. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see people like Cohenite cited in future ABC/Monthly etc circle-jerk echo chamber “analysis” of the vicious racism of the right wing blogosphere. Well done, Cohenite. Give yourself an uppercut.

  8. cohenite

    When Wilders was in Australia he was interviewed on the abc; he made this distinction:

    GEERT WILDERS: … What you’re saying about radical Islam, with all respect to you sir, is complete nonsense. There is no radical or moderate Islam. There is only one Islam and that is the Islam from the Koran, the holy book. That is the Islam from Mohammed. There are no two sorts of Islam.

    However, there are moderate and non-moderate Muslims, I acknowledge that. As a matter of fact the majority of the Muslims living in our society are moderate people. But don’t make the mistake that even though there are moderate and radical Muslims that there is a moderate or a radical Islam.

    There is only one Islam, and that is a totalitarian ideology that has no room for anything but Islam. You see it once again in any country in the world where Islam is dominant.

    I would refine that distinction and say the two types of muslims are active jihadists who do the cutting and the slicing and the blowing up and the rest of the shit; and then the majority of non-active jihadists who still support sharia but don’t behead people; just perhaps marry the occasional 12 year old girl and remove female genitals.

  9. But how many Muslims are there in Australia? Probably a lot.

    Nowhere near as many as there are Buddhists. So why all the noise from Mussos?

    Do they threaten you?

    You mean like violent demonstrations in the Sydney CBD. You mean like young mothers giving their kids signs to hold up saying “Kill all unbelievers”.

    You’re darn tootin’ they threaten.

  10. nilk, Iron Bogan

    have you read this book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat, by Dr. Peter Hammond? And/or have you heard of Hammond and would you recommend a book by him if you have?

    I haven’t read that one, Gab, nor have I heard of him. I’ll add him to my library after I’ve moved, I think. I’ve got so many books here, one more won’t hurt. :)

    One I recommend is Lee Harris’ The Suicide of Reason: Radical Islam’s Threat To The West.

    Ignore the second part of the title as that’s not really a major part of it all. Harris delves more into how the West has become so soft, which is enabling those so inclined to push the islamist barrow.

    Another excellent read is Mosques and Miracles, by Stuart Robinson, a Melbourne pastor and missionary. The first half of the book is about islam and its history and teachings. I found that well-written, and the bio of Mohammed was quite non-judgemental.

    The second half of the book was more for christians who want to proselytise to muslims, so feel free to ignore that. I did.

  11. jupes

    Let’s not forget that cohenite argues that there was no such thing as a moderate muslim, not that the moderates constitute a minority.

    Every single Muslims believes that they should try to emulate Mohammad’s ‘perfect’ life.

    Mohammad was a polygamist who married a six year old girl. He had sex with her at nine. He murdered Jewish men and enslaved their wives. He stoned women for adultery.

    Yeah sure. Moderate as fuck.

  12. Fisky

    But how many Muslims are there in Australia? Probably a lot. Do they threaten you? Do they all engage in activities designed to undermine the nation or are they mostly engaged in living their lives, paying off homes and educating their children? The latter, of course, is the truth.

    No, I have no idea. I am only making an empirical point regarding the actual opinions of Muslims in the societies I listed above based on Pew Research polling. I have no idea what Australia Muslims think on the same issues, because no such polling has been conducted here. And empirically, you have no idea either.

    As noted, I am not interested in defending any ideology. The fact is most Muslims are moderate in their thoughts and deeds, so let’s not piss the bed about it.

    I think it is true that most Muslims are moderate in their deeds, certainly there would be lots more explosions if this were not true, but there isn’t any evidence that most Muslims are moderate in their thoughts.

    As I said earlier, the Right has been played by Aly. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see people like Cohenite cited in future ABC/Monthly etc circle-jerk echo chamber “analysis” of the vicious racism of the right wing blogosphere. Well done, Cohenite. Give yourself an uppercut.

    Cohenite is an irrelevant internet identity. The real question is, what did Andrew Bolt or other commentators say about Aly’s article? I think his response was appropriate.

  13. Aristogeiton

    Abu Chowdah
    #1244692, posted on March 30, 2014 at 12:21 am
    Now if you asked me whether we should import large numbers of people whose ideology and culture isn’t in harmony with the Western liberal heritage if equality, democracy and pluralism, then that is a larger discussion that goes beyond the small point I was making here (i.e., that Cohenite is a hypocritical bigot whose vicious bloviation proves Waleed Aly’s tedious, adolescent trolling objective).

    The answer, of course is NO.

    Wholeheartedly agree.

  14. Gab

    Thanks, Nilk, I’ve bookmarked your suggestions. On Hammond, I’m not in a position to recommend him as I haven’t heard of him, so perhaps some research on him before you buy the book might be warranted. Good luck with the move.

  15. jupes

    But how many Muslims are there in Australia? Probably a lot.

    Probably not as a percentage.

    The more Muslims, the greater the threat. That is indisputable.

  16. Abu Chowdah

    Nowhere near as many as there are Buddhists. So why all the noise from Mussos?

    I’m not denying that the behaviour of a minority is incompatible with Western liberal democracy.

    You mean like violent demonstrations in the Sydney CBD. You mean like young mothers giving their kids signs to hold up saying “Kill all unbelievers”.

    Is this representative of the larger society? I seem to recall that the protest was dozens of shitbags. Most Muslims did not attend, and indeed the behaviour of the protestors was criticised by Muslims in the media. We should welcome Waleed Aly appointing himself as the “go to” on Muslim issues, then relentlessly push him to explain anything that runs counter to Australian law and society.

    You’re darn tootin’ they threaten.

    Then use the law to prosecute any criminal behaviour and repeal 18C so you can excoriate their ideology without getting in a pickle.

    We are on the same side, by and large. I just think Cohenite is a fucking hypocritical bigot. The answer to Waleed Aly’s bigotry is not reciprocal bigotry. It’s a simple point I’m making, but elusive it would seem.

  17. sdfc

    Nilk

    And as for the earth being created in six days, followed by a rest on the seventh. I wasn’t there so I don’t know.

    So you are free not to take the Bible literally, but a Muslim is not free to do so with the Koran or Sharia.

  18. Fisky

    Let’s not forget that cohenite argues that there was no such thing as a moderate muslim, not that the moderates constitute a minority.

    I’m not sure what Cohenite wrote, and I can’t be bothered finding out. If he really said there were no moderate Muslims, then he’s just wrong. The overwhelming majority of Muslims in Indonesia and a super-majority of Muslims in Turkey reject sharia, sectarianism, FGM, jihad, etc, and vote for political parties that are no more odious (and in fact substantially less so) than what passes for mainstream in a couple of Eastern European countries I can think of. Unfortunately, those two countries buck the trend.

  19. Abu Chowdah

    Probably not as a percentage.

    The more Muslims, the greater the threat. That is indisputable.

    You might enjoy Theodore Dalrymple’s book on Western decline.

    The problem isn’t other cultures, it’s the emasculation of our own. That’s why 18c must go.

    In The New Vichy Syndrome, Theodore Dalrymple traces this malaise back to the great conflicts of the last century and their devastating effects upon the European psyche. From issues of religion, class, colonialism, and nationalism, Europeans hold a “miserablist” view of their history, one that alternates between indifference and outright contempt of the past. Today’s Europeans no longer believe in anything but personal economic security, an increased standard of living, shorter working hours, and long vacations in exotic locales.

    The result, Dalrymple asserts, is an unwillingness to preserve European achievements and the dismantling of western culture by Europeans themselves. As vapid hedonism and aggressive Islamism fill this cultural void, Europeans have no one else to blame for their plight.

  20. jupes

    So you are free not to take the Bible literally, but a Muslim is not free to do so with the Koran or Sharia.

    Spot on sfdc. You have nailed it.

    The Koran is the DIRECT word of Allah as dictated to old Mo. Every Muslim must take the Koran literally otherwise he is disputing Allah.

    Not a good career move in Islam.

  21. jupes

    The problem isn’t other cultures, it’s the emasculation of our own.

    Not quite. The problem is one other culture – Islam – and the emasculation of our own.

  22. Aristogeiton

    Fisky
    #1244705, posted on March 30, 2014 at 12:34 am
    Let’s not forget that cohenite argues that there was no such thing as a moderate muslim, not that the moderates constitute a minority.

    I’m not sure what Cohenite wrote, and I can’t be bothered finding out.

    cohenite
    #1242887, posted on March 28, 2014 at 5:40 pm
    You said there’s no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Clearly that is untrue and unreasonable.

    And I linked to this to prove my point.

    Address that you sanctimonious dickhead. And provide an example of a moderate muslim.

    Hinc illae lacrimae

  23. nilk, Iron Bogan

    I know, Sdfc. I wasn’t sure if you were going for a gotcha since I’m happy to identify as a Rad Trad Catholic, and a convert, which makes me even more fundy than most.

    I can’t think of much more I’d do than pray at someone I was pissed off with, though, unless they threatened my daughter.

    Then I’d need to reconsider my options.

  24. Infidel Tiger

    This is great. On this thread we have Jupes and SATP furiously agreeing with each other and on another thread they have scimitars at 5 paces.

    If I may add my own farthings worth to this debate, I find Muslims to be much like the homosexual. Individually they can be fabulous people, but as a politically motivated collective they are a destructive force hell bent on destroying the culture that has done the most to protect them.

  25. sdfc

    Rubbish the Bible is full of the word of God and God’s laws. Every Christian must take the Bible literally or they are disputing God.

  26. Abu Chowdah

    Jupes. This link should in no way be taken as a defence of any religion. But you clearly don’t know what’s in the Abrahamic texts.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/18/an-underage-bride-in-the-bible/

    All religion is preposterous, in my view. My argument isn’t about moral equivalence, it’s about hypocritical equivalence.

  27. sdfc

    That was directed at Jupes, Nilk.

  28. Infidel Tiger

    Rubbish the Bible is full of the word of God and God’s laws. Every Christian must take the Bible literally or they are disputing God.

    50% correct. Must try harder.

  29. Gab

    Aceh is the only part of Indonesia to apply Sharia in full. Islamic courts in Aceh had long handled cases of marriage, divorce and inheritance. After special autonomy legislation was passed in 2001, the reach of courts extend to criminal justice.[98] Under a 2009 law, married people convicted of adultery can be sentenced to death by stoning, while unmarried people can be sentenced to 100 lashes.[99]

    Although Indonesia has now joined the ME in banning the new movie “Noah” of its representation of the prophet.

  30. Fisky

    Address that you sanctimonious dickhead. And provide an example of a moderate muslim.

    OK, well that’s just rubbish. Of course there are moderate Muslims.

  31. sdfc

    You must try harder to get your message across.

  32. Gab

    Every Christian must take the Bible literally or they are disputing God.

    Even if that statement were true, we Christians are actually allowed to “dispute” God and the Pope and local priests won’t issue jihad on us.

  33. Infidel Tiger

    Islam in Indonesia is a very weird hybrid of animism, Buddhism and many other weird and crazy beliefs. The Saudis are doing their level best to get them to fly straight, but here is a funny little story about some devout Javanese Muslims:

    http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/the-swingers-guide-to-islam/419/

  34. Infidel Tiger

    Although Indonesia has now joined the ME in banning the new movie “Noah” of its representation of the prophet.

    Banning every Rusty Crowe movie since Cinderella Man is probably an enlightened move.

  35. Fisky

    If I may add my own farthings worth to this debate, I find Muslims to be much like the homosexual. Individually they can be fabulous people, but as a politically motivated collective they are a destructive force hell bent on destroying the culture that has done the most to protect them.

    Nearly every minority group has lunatic political positions. Arguably, the Jews are among the worst. I think occasional doses of Birdist abuse are justified now after their appalling support for the Bolt laws.

  36. Gab

    Banning every Rusty Crowe movie since Cinderella Man is probably an enlightened move.

    That’s not a very Libertarian statement, but I agree with it.

  37. jupes

    Every Christian must take the Bible literally or they are disputing God.

    No. Even fundamentalists believe the Bible was inspired by God. Not written or dictated by him.

    The Koran is different. It is also different in that it is a very short book. Almost every chapter contains hate speech about the Kaffir / Jew / Christian.

    The Bible on the other hand is a much larger book which also contains hate speech, however there is enough ‘good’ stuff in there so that a priest can preach every Sunday of his life without once encouraging his flock to hate the non believer.

    A Muslim cleric cannot do that.

  38. Infidel Tiger

    Agreed.

    I was led to believe that Judaism had a history of fostering intellectualism? This latest position they have taken where by they have hopped in bed with people who want them dead makes me think that was just a crude stereotype I had come to believe.

  39. jupes

    But you clearly don’t know what’s in the Abrahamic texts.

    Actually I do. See my post above.

  40. Aristogeiton

    Infidel Tiger
    #1244729, posted on March 30, 2014 at 12:48 am
    Islam in Indonesia is a very weird hybrid of animism, Buddhism and many other weird and crazy beliefs. The Saudis are doing their level best to get them to fly straight, but here is a funny little story about some devout Javanese Muslims:

    http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/the-swingers-guide-to-islam/419/

    Fascinating. Thanks IT.

  41. Aristogeiton

    jupes
    #1244734, posted on March 30, 2014 at 12:56 am
    Every Christian must take the Bible literally or they are disputing God.

    No. Even fundamentalists believe the Bible was inspired by God. Not written or dictated by him.

    Baloney! The distinction is meaningless:

    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine [...]“. (2 Tim. 3:16, KJV).

  42. jupes

    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine

    My point exactly. God only inspired the Bible.

    Every word of the Koran is Allah’s.

  43. Aristogeiton

    lit. “teaching”.

  44. Gab

    Must be the Macquarie Dictionary definition.

  45. Aristogeiton

    jupes
    #1244743, posted on March 30, 2014 at 1:04 am
    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine

    My point exactly. God only inspired the Bible.

    Every word of the Koran is Allah’s.

    They are the words of God according to 2 Timothy and any Christian worth their salt. I have never heard a textualist argue that scripture was only “inspired”, therefore negotiable in meaning.

  46. sdfc

    No the Bible is the word of God. You are giving Christians the wriggle room you deny of the Muslims.

  47. Demosthenes

    I can see you too are one of those who wilfully dismiss any concern about islam as being deranged.

    Are strawman arguments the only arrows in your quiver? You are NOT presenting just “any concern” about Islam. You are very specifically concerned about an invading culture that will upend our legal system and replace it with sharia. THAT concern is obviously total nonsense.

    I’m happy to go along with any number of criticisms of Islam. That’s not what this is about. This is about the protections we put on our social institutions.

    The simple fact is, there would have to be a majority in Australia of Muslims who want sharia law to replace our political/legal systems for there to even be a chance of it occurring. That is clearly a baseless fear.

  48. Demosthenes

    There are no two sorts of Islam.

    Who knew?

  49. Aristogeiton

    Gab
    #1244746, posted on March 30, 2014 at 1:09 am
    Must be the Macquarie Dictionary definition.

    No: διδασκαλία.

  50. Gab

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=inspiration

    inspiration (n.) Look up inspiration at Dictionary.com
    c.1300, “immediate influence of God or a god,” especially that under which the holy books were written, from Old French inspiracion “inhaling, breathing in; inspiration,” from Late Latin inspirationem (nominative inspiratio), noun of action from past participle stem of Latin inspirare “inspire, inflame, blow into,” from in- “in” (see in- (2)) + spirare “to breathe” (see spirit). Literal sense “act of inhaling” attested in English from 1560s. Meaning “one who inspires others” is attested by 1867.

  51. sdfc

    Would not words inspired by God be the word of God?

    That is aside from the passages where is says The Lord said this and The Lord said that.

  52. Aristogeiton

    The word is θεόπνευστος, literally “God-breathed”. As a matter of theology, however, there does not seem to me to be a material difference between the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad, and the revelation of inspired scripture to the biblical authors.

  53. Aristogeiton

    sdfc
    #1244755, posted on March 30, 2014 at 1:22 am
    Would not words inspired by God be the word of God?

    That is aside from the passages where is says The Lord said this and The Lord said that.

    The discussion has become decidedly Jesuitical, hasn’t it?

  54. sdfc

    I don’t even know what that means.

  55. Aristogeiton

    “Of or pertaining to the Jesuits.
    [...]
    Having the character ascribed to the Jesuits; deceitful, dissembling; practising equivocation, prevarication, or mental reservation of truth. Often used in sense ‘hair-splitting’, keenly analytical.”

  56. Talleyrand

    And a fanatical devotion to the Pope…

  57. C.L.

    The OED’s definition has its origins in seventeenth century Taliban England.

    England’s hillbilly protestants and ‘Anglicans’ feared the Jesuits and were jealous of their intellectual superiority.

    That any protestant in England could decry “mental reservation of truth” after building their new order on the bogus claims of an overweight syphilitic serial killer is, of course, one of those hilariously brazen moments in the history of propaganda.

  58. sdfc

    Those hillbilly protestants did pretty well for themselves.

  59. Abu Chowdah

    You and I can locate links critical of all religions Gab but to respond by saying why didn’t he criticise X leads us into an endless loop with no end in sight. My posting of that link was for balance. I’m critical of all religion and you know that.

  60. Gab

    I’ve not seen you criticize or mock Islam once, Abu. Maybe I just blinked and missed it ;)

  61. sdfc

    Christians are basically idolaters anyway. And Muslims aren’t too far behind.

  62. Aristogeiton

    Gab
    #1244785, posted on March 30, 2014 at 2:08 am
    I’ve not seen you criticize or mock Islam once, Abu. Maybe I just blinked and missed it ;)

    Well he hasn’t been mocking Christianity either; the link was provided in the interests of balance after an hysterical discussion of Islam. He has identified himself as an athiest. Not every athiest is so insecure that they must denounce specific religions at every opportunity.

  63. Aristogeiton

    sdfc
    #1244786, posted on March 30, 2014 at 2:10 am
    Christians are basically idolaters anyway. And Muslims aren’t too far behind.

    I think you mean Catholics.

  64. Gab

    oops, sorry Abu, I understand I should not address you directly but through your spokesperson Aristogeiton instead. I’ll try to remember that in future.

  65. sdfc

    No Ari, the Anglicans are almost as bad. They worship a fair few less graven images though.

  66. srr

    Another reason that Chesterton and Muggeridge could discern the paradoxes of life was that they were capable of seeing the world upside down. Chesterton demonstrated this ability in the most startling way when he wrote about St Peter being crucified upside down. His humility, wrote Chesterton, was rewarded by his seeing in death the beautiful vision of his boyhood. He would have seen the landscape as it really is – “with the stars like flowers, and the clouds like hills, and all men hanging on the mercy of God.”

    Apart from the important perspectives of Chesterton and Muggeridge on marriage and the family, the most penetrating insight which they shared was their understanding of liberalism as a social and political philosophy. Both of them saw that the ultimate unfolding of liberalism was totalitarianism. Liberalism did not usher in greater freedom, but greater servitude. It was not an antidote to totalitarianism, but rather its precursor.

    Muggeridge himself recognised this prophetic understanding on Chesterton’s part. In a review he wrote in 1963, Muggeridge called Chesterton “an impressive prophet.” He quoted a statement of Chesterton’s in 1905:

    The earnest Freethinkers need not worry themselves so much about the persecutions of the past. Before the Liberal idea is dead or triumphant, we shall see wars and persecutions the like of which the world has never seen.

    After quoting this prophecy, Muggeridge added:

    Stalin, then a young man of 26, and Hitler, 10 years younger, were, along with others, to make good his words to a fabulous degree.

    Muggeridge felt the intensity of this truth in his bones, for he – by comparison with Chesterton (who died in 1936) – lived through the greater part of the 20th century, when the full consequences of modern political ideologies had become inescapably plain. In later life, Muggeridge described himself as “among the walking-wounded from the ideological conflicts of the age.” In the 1930s, he had witnessed the gullibility of Western intellectuals in the face of 20th century totalitarianism. He described this phenomenon of intellectual blindness and dishonesty in his novel, Winter in Moscow (1934), and he once noted that a peculiar sin of the 20th century, which had been developed to a very high level, was the sin of credulity.

    Chesterton, for his part, had early recognised the intellectual weaknesses of the major secular prophets of his time – addressing these in Heretics (1905), a precursor to Orthodoxy (1908) – long before the cultural effects of their ideas became manifest. He saw the moral ramifications of various social changes – in particular, divorce and contraception. But he did not live to see the ubiquity of abortion and the insistent demand for euthanasia. In 1978, Muggeridge predicted that governments of the future will find the temptation of euthanasia irresistible – as a way of delivering themselves and their constituents from the growing burden of caring for the sick, the senile and the insane. He thought that the delay in generating public pressure for euthanasia was due to its being one of the crimes cited at Nuremberg after World War II. “It takes just over thirty years,” he concluded, “in our humane society to transform a war crime into an act of compassion.”

  67. sdfc

    Christians have the best music of all the religions though

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfGDvDGE7zk

  68. srr

    The above quote is from here -

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/catholic_stories/cs0438.htm

    There is much more there that is well worth reading, and not only for being timely, but eternal.

  69. Abu Chowdah

    Gab, if you go far, far back to the emergence of this username on the internet you will see peak mockery.

  70. A Lurker

    Individually they can be fabulous people, but as a politically motivated collective they are a destructive force hell bent on destroying the culture that has done the most to protect them.

    Yes. This.
    Since p1 I’ve continued to read and lurk through this thread, and overall one analogy has dogged my mind.
    This is it…

    The Boiled Frog
    They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water,
    it will leap out right away to escape the danger.
    But, if you put a frog in a kettle that is filled with water that is cool and pleasant,
    and then you gradually heat the kettle until it starts boiling,
    the frog will not become aware of the threat until it is too late.
    The frog’s survival instincts are geared towards detecting sudden changes.

    This is a story that is used to illustrate how people might get themselves into terrible trouble.
    This parable is often used to illustrate how humans have to be careful to watch slowly changing trends in the environment, not just the sudden changes. Its a warning to keep us paying attention not just to obvious threats but to more slowly developing ones.

    Australian society and culture is the frog.

  71. Nilk

    And a fanatical devotion to the Pope…

    I saw what you did there. :D

  72. Nilk

    Lurker, I don’t know that I completely with the boiled frog analogy. I prefer to call it fear. A lot of people know that something is not quite right but are too afraid to discuss it.

    Why wouldn’t you be, when the likes of Wally are standing in the pulpit telling you how Bad you are for daring to consider the possibility that a growing section of the population doesn’t agree with the majority?

    Compare the treatment Bolt received from the media and judiciary to that received by new Afghan member of the community Jaffari.

    No pages and pages about outrage and offence for a man who walks off with someone else’s child. He gets a pass due to “cultural differences”. Bolta had the audacity to write about a minority in a way that was critical.

    Which, in all seriousness, is a greater crime?

    I’m reminded often of Kellmeyer’s talks where he discusses why heresy was and is such a big deal. Basically there are two powers. God and the king (of caliph). If a person is not afraid of God, then why on earth would he be afraid of the king? He has the potential to bring down the kingdom if he rallies others to his standard, so must be made an example of.

    Bolt is a heretic, Jaffari merely misguided according to the PC dogma.

  73. A Lurker

    I prefer to call it fear. A lot of people know that something is not quite right but are too afraid to discuss it.

    Yes, which is why we need the changes to 18C, so that the ‘frogs’ can be allowed to discuss the curious and growing discomfort of the water. Perhaps if enough ‘frogs’ pipe up about their growing concern, then collectively all the ‘frogs’ can decide to jump out of the water, or agitate so that the water returns to the normal temperature.

    I find it curious in light of the ongoing and recent media event around the sentencing of Brett Peter Cowan for Daniel Morcombe’s abduction and murder, how little the mainstream media has reacted to what Jaffari did, and the Magistrate’s decision. Very curious indeed, and highly distressing. You’d think his child abduction attempt would be like setting a match to a bone-dry tinderbox, but in the media only the local paper reported on it.

  74. cohenite

    Progress, of a sort. The 2 As and the mutant Chowdah are at least talking about my, to quote Demosthenes, baseless fears about islam.

    The quote from Wilders is in fact a message from the front since Holland currently has a proportion of muslims of about the European average of 5%. But as I said the rate of population increase means that by about 2030 Sweden’s Muslim population will reach 40%, France will have a 55% Muslim population, Netherlands 45%, Germany 40%, Britain 40%.

    The conversation we are having now featuring the sang-froid of the cabal of bigot finger pointers about Islam’s impact on Australia’s legal structure will see that sang-froid sorely tested when Australia’s proportion of muslims also nears the 50% mark. We can say that because we can see the types of societies majority islam societies are. To say that will be different in Australia is baseless optimism. The oppressive features of islam are evident; what processes and methods do the bigot chasers propose to mitigate those features when islam is the dominant part of the population?

  75. There’s a few in this thread rattling on about islam without the faintest idea what they are talking about.

    Jupes is 100% correct. The Koran is the literal word of God. It cannot be challenged. Interpretation not allowed. The Koran is the ironclad exact word of God. End.of.religious.message.
    Then there are the Hadiths. But we’re going too far too fast to get into that, not when we’re dealing with a class who haven’t the faintest idea what islam is.

    The Christian Bible, is as Jupes says, very open to interpertation, bristling with euphemisms, etc.

    This is a very important distinction between the Bible & the Koran. It is something often not understood by persons from a christian background whose knowledge of islam doesn’t go much beyond reading newspapers.

  76. nilk, Iron Bogan

    “…what processes and methods do the bigot chasers propose to mitigate those features when islam is the dominant part of the population?”

    I like to sing, personally.

  77. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1244939, posted on March 30, 2014 at 9:24 am
    Progress, of a sort. The 2 As and the mutant Chowdah are at least talking about my, to quote Demosthenes, baseless fears about islam.

    No progress has been made. You are still the idiot who maintains there is no such thing as a moderate muslim. To the extent the discussion has moved on to other matters, it does not rehabilitate your original, bigoted contention.

  78. The oppressive features of islam are evident; what processes and methods do the bigot chasers propose to mitigate those features when islam is the dominant part of the population?

    We could start by cancelling “religious beliefs” as a reason to have a postal vote.
    All those oppressed islamic women don’t get a vote at the moment. Their postal vote is delivered to their house, and their owner fills it in.

    The more women in his household, the more votes a western Sydney muslim has. We’ve gotta stop this.

  79. cohenite

    That’s a bit lame Aristogeiton ; I’ve come to expect some esoteric reference to demonstrate how fucking cultured you are as a support for your dumb claim I’m a bigot. Very lazy. Still the high and mighty are often indolent.

    By definition you cannot practice islam and be moderate. Where I think your addled confusion comes from, apart from trying to be so morally superior is that you confuse nice, pleasant and mild muslims with moderate.

    Sharia is not moderate; and if you accept sharia you take the lot. It’s not like the domesticated religions we have in the West where you can put your hat on on Sunday or whatever day you pay deference and then lapse for the rest of the week.

    That you refuse to accept something so apparent and simple says to me you are just here to grandstand as a morally superior wanker, albeit a well read one.

  80. nerblnob

    That any protestant in England could decry “mental reservation of truth” after building their new order on the bogus claims of an overweight syphilitic serial killer

    But his church was just Catholic with divorce and the K/Q of E at its head instead of the pope. That’s not Protestantism. The real proddy prods are the ones descended from the churches of Luther, Calvin, Knox et al.
    H8 wasn’t just a serial killer but a mass murderer – 40,000 put to death in his first year by some accounts. Seems like it went with the job in those days.

  81. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1244968, posted on March 30, 2014 at 9:57 am
    [...]
    That you refuse to accept something so apparent and simple says to me you are just here to grandstand as a morally superior wanker, albeit a well read one.

    “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.” (1 Cor. 2:11, KJV)

  82. tomix

    The catholics had their turn at mass murder with Bloody Mary a few years later.

  83. C.L.

    Those hillbilly protestants did pretty well for themselves.

    Did they?

    How’s the Empire going?

  84. Tel

    It’s not like the domesticated religions we have in the West where you can put your hat on on Sunday or whatever day you pay deference and then lapse for the rest of the week.

    I think you will find a lot of Muslims do exactly that. They mostly keep their heads down and don’t say anything about it.

    However evil triumphs when good men say nothing, and I’d guess that’s one of the problems of the Middle East. You get zealots egging each other on, and every else afraid to try and bring the situation under control… although hopefully Egypt is now on the path towards sorting itself out, after the zealots have been kicked out, so people can get their shit together at times.

  85. tomix

    Australia , New Zealand, Canada, U.S. and Ireland aren’t doing too badly – compared to everywhere the British weren’t, anyway.

  86. A Lurker

    That’s an illuminating read, Cold-Hands.
    This bit was especially revealing…

    They are often expected to give up their own cultures and take on Arab, sub-continental, Malay or other cultures because these are deemed to be more “Islamic”.

    So all that FGM, paedophilia disguised as boy-love/child-love/Afghani-dancing boys, polygamy, misogyny, wearing of the burqa, et al; is not just cultural, but also regarded as Islamic culture.

    The immediate changes to their lives that converts are expected to make reads more like a list of demands of an intolerant cult with a sociopathic leader than a mainstream religion – a religion I suspect would demand the rest of us emulate if they gained too much influence here.

  87. Maggie Ward

    Waleed Ally is a laundered Leftie whose rantings are sanitized. He is a token whatever he choses to be and untouchable, his world is gospel/Koran to the Left. Makes me sick really. I believe he is patronised by those comforting head nodding souls who surround him and keep him free from the truth.

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