Queen’s Counsel

While David Flint is right that there has been a concerted effort to remove the Australian crown from the constitutional system, I do not agree that there should be QCs or KCs.

A barrister is just another occupation. It is no more important than any number of other jobs in Australia – in fact, there is some evidence that the growth rate of an economy is inversely proportional to the per capita number of lawyers.

But I strongly believe that the State has no business in recognising a small group of workers with a title such as Queen’s Counsel. Why shouldn’t there be Queen’s Bricklayer (QB) or Queen’s Accountant (QA), or Queen’s Surgeon (QS)?

If lawyers want to join clubs – such as the Bar – that’s for them. And if that club wants to given recognition to a subset of its members that’s fine too. But please leave the State out of the equation.

Isn’t it interesting how the so-called republicans are so keen on getting a knighthood or a QC?

About Samuel J

Samuel J has an economics background and is a part-time consultant
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122 Responses to Queen’s Counsel

  1. Isn’t it interesting how the so-called republicans are so keen on getting a knighthood or a QC?

    Isn’t it interesting how the so-called libertarians are so keen on Metronome Tone’s kowtowing to a foreign honour system?

  2. boy on a bike

    The next knight should be Sir Tim Wilson – for services to liberty and freedom.

  3. Driftforge

    Maybe, in our context, Governor’s Council is more appropriate.

  4. A Lurker

    Isn’t it interesting how the so-called republicans are so keen on getting a knighthood or a QC?

    Agreed. I’ve noticed that too of many. They would crawl over broken glass to get a title.

  5. Megan

    Isn’t it interesting that anyone could possibly interpret this post as supporting an honour system of any kind? It involves a depth of stupidity that medical science has not yet managed to measure.

  6. vlad

    When George VI died and Princess Elizabeth became the Queen, all the KC’s became QC’s.

    But when the Victorian Labor Government brought in the SC rubbish, they let all the existing QC’s stay
    QC’s if they wished. From memory, the incoming group of silks were given a final choice, and from memory they all chose to become QC’s.

    So Mark Dreyfus got to stay QC, while his party denied that privilege to their successors.

    Whatever you think of the whole bizzo, it has to be the same rule for everyone. How much support would the change to SC have had then, eh?

    Eh?

  7. Cato the Elder

    It’s a market perception thing. The punters will pay more for a QC, ’nuff said.

  8. Riverina Matt

    Isn’t it interesting how the so-called libertarians are so keen on Metronome Tone’s kowtowing to a foreign honour system?

    Your ignorance is showing, again. It isn’t foreign nor is it a return to imperial honours.

    The honours awarded to Bryce and (later) today Cosgrove are honours in the Order of Australia, a wholly Australian institution. They are not imperial awards such as the BEM, MBE, OBE etc.

    What is more imperial and redolent of Mother England is the lefty habit of calling Liberals “tories” and invoking the worst of the British class war.

    Yes, the return of knighthoods is a little silly but watching the lefties froth at the mouth over it has been fun …

  9. Rabz

    The most absurdly pompous, utterly ridiculous, puffed up, narcissistic nonces I’ve ever had the misfortune of encountering in my life have been barrasites.

    To see the lazy, loathsome, utterly sozzled, pretentious waffling windbags mincing around in the CBD in those ridiculous gowns and wigs is to see a bunch of clowns who’ve completely lost touch with reality.

    Get rid of the absurd honorific altogether.

    Actually stuff that, get rid of barrasites altogether.

    Sod them.

  10. Rabz

    The punters suckers will pay more for a QC

    As confirmed by that absurdly pompous, utterly ridiculous, pretentious waffling windbag Doofus.

    Beyond parody.

  11. Beertruk

    A Lurker
    #1242171, posted on March 28, 2014 at 7:45 am
    Isn’t it interesting how the so-called republicans are so keen on getting a knighthood or a QC?

    Agreed. I’ve noticed that too of many. They would crawl over broken glass to get a title.

    Not only that, but also so-called republicans pushing everyone else out of the way to that their picture taken with any Royal visitor that happens to come out here.

  12. Beertruk

    Grrr…to have their picture taken with any Royal visitor that happens to come out here.

  13. dan

    By the time they become SCs their cost-benefit ratio to society is past the inflection point and is heading towards vertical. I shared an apartment with one once for a year. At whatever $1000s per day his task in life for that whole time was apparently arguing that a weather event had involved water rising rather than falling from the sky.

  14. It isn’t foreign nor is it a return to imperial honours.

    Perhaps, but as Paul Keating once said, Abbott has flicked the switch to vaudeville.
    And I call Britain a foreign country, being Australian and all…..

  15. Pickles

    To see the lazy, loathsome, utterly sozzled, pretentious waffling windbags mincing around in the CBD in those ridiculous gowns and wigs is to see a bunch of clowns who’ve completely lost touch with reality

    I take issue with “mincing”.

  16. Rabz

    I take issue with “mincing”.

    OK, stumbling, shuffling, aimlessly wandering, etc.

  17. Richard Inglis

    If bricklayers or tilers were destined to be appointed to sit on the third arm of Government and determine fundamental issues that bind everyone, including elected Governments, then maybe we would have silk for them. Since the vast majority of superior court judges come from the ranks of silks and are appointed by the same Government then that is one reason they should have a say (it is like a mini elevation – a trial run for the bench – if you’re any good as a silk then you may go further). There is another reason. Barristers, particularly are regarded first and foremost as officers of the court and to owe a duty to the Court above that owed to their client – all lawyers are in the same position but that duty manifests itself in unique and specific ways in relation to barristers in the Courtroom. The Crown is at the centre of the functions of the Court so it is not inappropriate that the Crown have some say in those with notional pre-eminence as advocates there (of course taking silk is no guarantee of riches – the benches of the lower Courts are littered with failed silks – but it means with good ones that you have a chance to place on the public record you skill and character for higher office – think of it as one long job application for the bench). Finally the Government of the day is entitled to have a say in elevating certain members of the bar because these a few of these same people will one day be elevated in due course to the third arm of Government (where they will be given yet another further funky title and letters patent from Her Majesty). Perhaps we should we outlaw titles and letters patent (and wigs and robes) for Judges as well? They tried having regular joes dispense justice in the family court some years ago and all it did was end up getting some of them killed – seems ordinary people don’t respect ordinary joes sitting in judgement on them

  18. Rabz

    They tried having regular joes dispense justice in the family court some years ago and all it did was end up getting some of them killed – seems ordinary people don’t respect ordinary joes sitting in judgement on them

    That is not the reason they were killed and you know it.

    Anyway – I’ve heard these types of arguments before – the wig is supposed to make the judge unrecognisable.

    If I were one of them, given some of the infuriating, abominable ‘judgements’ these arrogant morons are increasingly responsible for, I wouldn’t want to be recognised either.

  19. oldmisery

    “Dame Julia Gillard”
    That’s something I’d like to see. I bet she would accept.

  20. Alfonso

    Australian lawyers have a dream.
    They lust after the US situation where lawyers invoice 10% of the US GDP each year.
    Kids with stars in their eyes.

  21. Wolf

    Everyone has a problem with barristers until they need one. Blaming lawyers for over-regulation and complexity in the legal system is like blaming doctors for disease.

  22. Bill Shut

    And David Marr would be Queen’ Queen?

  23. Viva

    It isn’t foreign nor is it a return to imperial honours.

    Depends on how you define “foreign”. I wouldn’t be alone in thinking the idea of knighthoods is foreign to our way of life and culture. Still “everyone loves a lord” as the saying goes. It seems Cats can be persuaded to love knighthoods if it’s one in the eye for lefties.

  24. C.L.

    A knighthood is nothing more than a three-letter honorific.

    How is it any more “foreign to our way of life” than a two-letter postnominal?

  25. Alfonso

    ‘Blaming lawyers for over-regulation and complexity in the legal system is like blaming doctors for disease.’
    Well, not quite like.
    Doctors don’t create viruses, bacteria and mould to enable their fellows future work prospects like the plague of lawyer MPs can and sadly do…..without the hint of a vested interest, of course.

  26. Aristogeiton

    “[T]here is some evidence that the growth rate of an economy is inversely proportional to the per capita number of lawyers.”

    Source? More of the lawyer bashing I’ve come to expect from this blog. So supply and demand in the labour market are not relevant enough to mention, and the legal profession must wear the opprobrium for the legislative excesses of successive democratic governments? Pathetic.

  27. Token

    While David Flint is right that there has been a concerted effort to remove the Australian crown from the constitutional system, I do not agree that there should be QCs or KCs.

    Good to see there are threads being posted to address the biggest concern our nation faces, whether the overpriced & over exposed brakes (& huge cost overhead) on our economy & society get to keep a label which allows them to charge even more to allow people to get back to the job of earning wealth.

    FFS. Strip all ALP politicians / alligned lawyers of their QC title in the name of “republicanism” and watch the lefty heads explode.

  28. Blaming lawyers for over-regulation and complexity in the legal system is like blaming doctors for disease.

    And the Law Reform Commission is made up of? Doctors? Plumbers?? Lawyers, perhaps??

    Could it be true that the LRC is made up of lawyers, who, lo and behold, recommend new laws or changes to laws that create more work for? Lawyers??

    The correct analogy is doctors going around breaking people’s legs to drum up business. No one would accept that, so why accept it from a bunch of pompous show-ponies?

  29. hammy

    I agree with SamuelJ that QC, Sir, Dame etc are ridiculous anachronisms. I’m disgusted that we are bowing and scraping to a foreign head of state.

    I’m ashamed to be Australian.

  30. Token

    Source? More of the lawyer bashing I’ve come to expect from this blog.

    Are lawyers really queing up to sook about being victims?

    Do you guys want a support group & drum circle?

    Holy molely this blog is crawling up its own arse in parody.

  31. Token

    Blaming lawyers for over-regulation and complexity in the legal system is like blaming doctors for disease.

    Great work Einstein.

    Monkey bars & other equipment which encourage physical activity are being banned from schools across this nation due to the vultures in the legal system. The tuck shops are seeing all “bad” foods banned and choice removed from parents due to the vultures in the legal system.

    By constrast doctors try to encourage children to exercise and get a balanced diet.

    FAIL.

  32. Aristogeiton

    The Beer Whisperer
    #1242228, posted on March 28, 2014 at 9:11 am
    Blaming lawyers for over-regulation and complexity in the legal system is like blaming doctors for disease.

    And the Law Reform Commission is made up of? Doctors? Plumbers?? Lawyers, perhaps??

    Public servants.

    Could it be true that the LRC is made up of lawyers, who, lo and behold, recommend new laws or changes to laws that create more work for? Lawyers??

    Put on your tinfoil hat! This view is as common around here as it is patently ridiculous.

  33. Token

    Depends on how you define “foreign”. I wouldn’t be alone in thinking the idea of knighthoods is foreign to our way of life and culture.

    The words “Sir” & “Dame” are as foreign as the English language they derive from.

  34. Chris M

    Why shouldn’t there be Queen’s Bricklayer (QB) or Queen’s Accountant (QA), or Queen’s Surgeon (QS)?

    Good point Sir Sam. Apparently the suicide rate is high amongst the bottom feeding parasite lawyers as they at the lowest point of society so these fake titles like QC are an attempt to boost their self esteem lest they realise they are more loathsome and dangerous to society than junkie syphilitic whores.

  35. Token

    Great thread Samuel J.

    The lawyers get a chance to sook about being victims and destroy any chance of constructive discussion as they try to justify their existance.

  36. Monkey bars & other equipment which encourage physical activity are being banned from schools across this nation due to the vultures in the legal system.

    Absolute rubbish.

    Every school of the 45 I work in has a playground gym complete with monkey bars and other equipment encouraging physical activity.

    I’d be stuck without them as they provide a readily available test resource to evaluate gross motor skills.

    What has changed in the forty years I’ve been working in schools is the improvement in quality of softfall and its almost universal adoption. No doubt lawyers had a lot to do with this, and as a consequence there are fewer broken limbs and serious head injuries in schools.

  37. Aristogeiton

    Token
    #1242231, posted on March 28, 2014 at 9:14 am
    Blaming lawyers for over-regulation and complexity in the legal system is like blaming doctors for disease.

    Great work Einstein.

    Monkey bars & other equipment which encourage physical activity are being banned from schools across this nation due to the vultures in the legal system. The tuck shops are seeing all “bad” foods banned and choice removed from parents due to the vultures in the legal system.

    I get it. Something bad happened, the law was involved (somehow), ergo it is the fault of lawyers. So, in your example, we’ve been bequeathed a common law contains a body of jusriprudence to do with negligence, the Queensland Parliament (in my jurisdiction) by agency of a Labor Government has passed a Work Health and Safety Act, and DETE have issued exhaustive Curriculum Activity Risk Assessment Guidelines – which are, surprise surprise, a complex mess of bureaucratic nonsense. This is all lawyers’ fault, how?

  38. Viva

    How is it any more “foreign to our way of life” than a two-letter postnominal?

    Knighthoods are redolent of the British class system and all its snobbery, protocol, and labyrinthine rules of behaviour. Yes we are not without social stratification here in Oz – but at least our version is not as entrenched and all pervasive as in the UK. After nuclear war, cockroaches will keep company with the British class system.

    And as an aside, I am really in awe of the sophistry employed by supporters of the machinery of monarchy and all its tentacle-like offshoots to make it all seem anodyne and not worth the bother. Of course the British are past masters of downplaying stuff with intent to bamboozle – and so in that regard you are all true inheritors of the imperial past. Only it’s not really our past yet is it?

  39. Rabz

    Q. And the Law Reform Commission is made up of? Doctors? Plumbers?? Lawyers, perhaps??

    A. Public servants.

    Australian Law Reform Commission – Commissioners

    Australian Law Reform Commission – Past Commissioners

    Yep, no lawyers there.

  40. Aristogeiton

    Token
    #1242235, posted on March 28, 2014 at 9:17 am
    Great thread Samuel J.

    The lawyers get a chance to sook about being victims and destroy any chance of constructive discussion as they try to justify their existance.

    How do you propose to get rid of them all?

  41. entropy

    It isn’t foreign nor is it a return to imperial honours.

    Depends on how you define “foreign”. I wouldn’t be alone in thinking the idea of knighthoods is foreign to our way of life and culture. Still “everyone loves a lord” as the saying goes. It seems Cats can be persuaded to love knighthoods if it’s one in the eye for lefties.

    That’ll do, Viva, that’ll do.

    Does it need to do anything else, does it impact on my life in any other way? No. So I I’ll take the twin facts that it exposes hipocracy, and annoys all the right people.

  42. Token

    The racist old homophobic bigot is once again proven wrong.

    When Belgian Gardens, a Townsville state primary school, banned cartwheels and handstands in August, it ignited a media frenzy. But as bizarre as it is, the handstand ban is only one incidence of a widespread trend affecting all Australian schools.

    Carlton Gardens Primary School has removed its monkey bars, St Michael’s Primary School has banned football and soccer during recess, St Peter Chanel Primary School now allows students to play football and soccer only if there is no tackling, and Ascot Vale West Primary has banned all games that are deemed ‘too rough.’

    Now you have been proven to be a LIAR AGAIN, I suspect you’ll fall back to vilifying some hard working foreigners as is your standard vile trick Bob.

  43. Token

    How do you propose to get rid of them all?

    What an appalling strawman. Bog lefty standard.

    Did you develop that line when you were a student member of the Socialist Alliance?

  44. Aristogeiton

    Rabz
    #1242241, posted on March 28, 2014 at 9:25 am
    [...]
    Australian Law Reform Commission – Commissioners

    Australian Law Reform Commission – Past Commissioners

    Yep, no lawyers there.

    So the public servants who are hired as the commissioners in the Australian Law Reform Commission have a background in the law? Stop the presses. Advocate for it’s abolition if you like: I think it’s mostly a disgrace (and, as I recall, where Michael Kirby was parked for many years). However, the ALRC was established by an Act of the Commonwealth Parliament. They should wear the opprobrium, not the profession which exists in large part to divine sense from their legislative scribblings.

  45. Grandma

    Like our departing Governor-General – a republican aristocrat, feminist clothes horse and and egalitarian dynast. Yep, these “progessives” are really interested in looking out for the little people.

  46. Wolf

    Monkey bars & other equipment which encourage physical activity are being banned from schools across this nation due to the vultures in the legal system. The tuck shops are seeing all “bad” foods banned and choice removed from parents due to the vultures in the legal system.

    That’s a complaint about the law – not lawyers. Just to be clear, lawyers don’t make law. A lot of the people who do are former lawyers but lawyers do not make law any more than accountants do.

    What you’re suggesting is that lawyers should sit back and act negligently towards their clients and not pursue their clients’ rights just because you don’t like the outcome of their work? If you don’t like the law, take it up with parliament.

    I’ll gladly see myself out of a job if it means less government interference but until then I’m a lawyer and I’ll work for the pittance that my clients can afford to pay me by pursuing every right they have as zealously as possible. If former lawyers on the ALRC or sitting in parliament do things you don’t like then please, feel free to go and complain to them.

  47. Aristogeiton

    Token
    #1242246, posted on March 28, 2014 at 9:28 am
    How do you propose to get rid of them all?

    What an appalling strawman. Bog lefty standard.

    Did you develop that line when you were a student member of the Socialist Alliance?

    I’m a classical liberal you contemptible little man.

  48. Pickles

    I’m always happy for those who whinge about lawyers to clean up their own piles of their own shit and I’m always happy to watch.

  49. Rabz

    Aristo – next you’ll be having a go at me for pointing out that the vast bulk of politicians are lawyers!

    The legal system as it currently operates is beyond reform.

    I’d rather ‘nuke’ it and start again.

  50. I don’t have a problem with there being a Queen’s Accountant,Queen’s Bricklayer or Queen’s Surgeon if they are appropriately eminent.
    The problem with Senior Counsel and by reference to that Queen’s Counsel is that the Queen doesn’t in fact approve them.If it is a requirement that their eminence is such that they are fit to provide services to the monarch, and the Queen agrees,what’s the problem?And if the republicans think that the Queen is irrelevant they obviously should avoid using the services of a QC.
    I might add that there is no restriction on persons styling themselves as providing services to clients whom they think will provide status and further work to them-lawyers,accountants etc do this.And then there are CV’s-they are designed for promotion.

  51. Rabz

    I’m always happy for those who whinge about lawyers to clean up their own piles of their own shit and I’m always happy to watch.

    Lawyers are shit, pal.

    Deal with it.

    And no – I’ve never been involved in a court case in my entire life. Sensible people with integrity rarely ever are.

  52. C.L.

    Just to be clear, lawyers don’t make law. A lot of the people who do are former lawyers but lawyers do not make law any more than accountants do.

    Oh please.

    You can see why people mock lawyers.

    They’re not lawyers but former lawyers?

  53. dan

    Finally the Government of the day is entitled to have a say in elevating certain members of the bar because these a few of these same people will one day be elevated in due course to the third arm of Government (where they will be given yet another further funky title and letters patent from Her Majesty). Perhaps we should we outlaw titles and letters patent (and wigs and robes) for Judges as well? They tried having regular joes dispense justice in the family court some years ago and all it did was end up getting some of them killed – seems ordinary people don’t respect ordinary joes sitting in judgement on them

    Uh there are blacksmiths and doctors in parliament too, that makes no sense.

    Plenty of doctors have been attacked/stabbed/shot over the years (a colleague of mine this year), more than judges have I think. When does the government give us giant puppet heads to cover our faces? I think the point is, whatever great work they do (ahem), plenty of other people do things as, or more, important. The people that developed and manage water supply and particularly sewerage have probably increased human welfare more than all the lawyers and doctors in the country put together.

  54. Pickles

    And no – I’ve never been involved in a court case in my entire life. Sensible people with integrity rarely ever are.

    Of course its only the dumb, the dodgy and the guilty that get into strife.

  55. Aristogeiton

    Rabz
    #1242258, posted on March 28, 2014 at 9:38 am
    I’m always happy for those who whinge about lawyers to clean up their own piles of their own shit and I’m always happy to watch.

    Lawyers are shit, pal.

    Deal with it.

    And no – I’ve never been involved in a court case in my entire life. Sensible people with integrity rarely ever are.

    Pickles doesn’t seem ‘shit’ to me, as you so put it. I’m sure you are as sensible and integritive as you are equable.

  56. dan

    I’m always happy for those who whinge about lawyers to clean up their own piles of their own shit and I’m always happy to watch.

    PS have seen this close up sadly (not me), many, many very talented lawyers involved, QCs too, ended in many years of penury, misery and ruin for everyone concerned. Except the lawyers.

  57. Infidel Tiger

    I’m always happy for those who whinge about lawyers to clean up their own piles of their own shit and I’m always happy to watch.

    Kinky bastard.

  58. Rabz

    Of course its only the dumb, the dodgy and the guilty that get into strife.

    By and large, yes.

  59. ugh

    “So the public servants who are hired as the commissioners in the Australian Law Reform Commission have a background in the law?”

    …and argue for increases in the number of laws, thereby creating more work for lawyers.

    Top job of proving Rabz’s point @Aristogeiton!

  60. Aristogeiton

    ugh
    #1242269, posted on March 28, 2014 at 9:50 am
    “So the public servants who are hired as the commissioners in the Australian Law Reform Commission have a background in the law?”

    …and argue for increases in the number of laws, thereby creating more work for lawyers.

    Non sequitur

  61. Rabz

    Pickles doesn’t seem ‘shit’ to me, as you so put it. I’m sure you are as sensible and integritive as you are equable.

    OK – enough. I’m not going to get into some interminable slanging match about members of a ‘profession’ that I regard as having even less integrity than academics, journalists, used car dealers and real estate agents.

    Legal parasites have a well deserved image problem and that’s my final word on this subject.

  62. Why shouldn’t there be Queen’s Bricklayer (QB) or Queen’s Accountant (QA), or Queen’s Surgeon (QS)?

    If bricklayers or accountants or surgeons assemble the arguments for their senior members to be accorded collective royal honours, with post-nominal letters, I’m sure Her Majesty will consider any proposal on its merits, just as any worthy organisation which wants the word “Royal” affixed to its name may apply to do so.

  63. james

    The words “Sir” & “Dame” are as foreign as the English language they derive from.

    Well said.

    We are a country founded by Britain and created by British derived people using British technology under a British legal system. The only reason this site exists is because of British concepts of liberty that have not really ever caught on anywhere outside the British diaspora.

    Speaking as the proud descendent of Irishmen who would have spat on the “Butchers apron” ever chance they got I see nothing foreign to Australia in adopting British honorifics into an Australian system.

  64. Baldrick

    The history of Queen’s Counsel dates back to the 16th century when the term Queen’s Counsel (QC) or Kings Counsel (KC) was given to barristers who were appointed to conduct court work on behalf of the Crown.

    Nowadays the term is used basically as a rank structure to differentiate between senior and junior counsel, due to the fact that QC’s or SC’s generally lead a team and have to focus on fewer, more complex cases and generally they specialise in a particular area of the law.

    It’s no more different than chiefs and indians.

  65. Senile Old Guy

    By contrast doctors try to encourage children to exercise and get a balanced diet.

    I wouldn’t go there Token. Some of the worst nannies around are doctors.

    For any doctors reading, this is a reference to some not all. Without the medical profession, I wouldn’t be here.

  66. james

    OK – enough. I’m not going to get into some interminable slanging match about members of a ‘profession’ that I regard as having even less integrity than academics, journalists, used car dealers and real estate agents.

    Rabz I prefer James Dellingpoles approach that Lawyers would be fine if only they were honest about being the prostitutes that they are instead of poncing around pretending to be the very embodiment of all that is best and right and just and good in society.

    It is not the messy business of sausage making in the law that so offends, but rather the sanctimonious hypocrisy.

  67. srr

    It when lawyers and doctors ‘tag-team’ that the most damage is done to the most vulnerable.

    It happens far more often than most acknowledge, let alone care to investigate and dare to ‘sort’.

    Here we have the latest example to make the news – most cases stay very private –

    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/parents-declare-war-after-boston-judge-places-daughter-into-state-care-following-yearlong-battle-over-mystery-illness/story-fneuzlbd-1226867151225

  68. dover_beach

    Can someone write down a list of things native to and foreign to our way of life and culture, please. If QCs haven’t been a part of it I really don’t know what has or continues to be part of it.

  69. Ellen of Tasmania

    I’m a lawyer and I’ll work for the pittance that my clients can afford to pay me by pursuing every right they have as zealously as possible.

    What is the hourly rate that you, and other poor lawyers, consider to be a ‘pittance’?

  70. incoherent rambler

    For any doctors reading, this is a reference to some not all. Without the medical profession, I wouldn’t be here.

    Interesting experience. Without the medical profession, I would be somewhere else and a lot healthier.

  71. YT

    I’m just amazed we’ve gone so many comments without Numbers waffling on about his time peeling spuds in Vietnam.

  72. Ellen of Tasmania

    Can someone write down a list of things native to and foreign to our way of life and culture, please.

    Football, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars??

    (I actually agree with you, Dover, and am grateful for our British rule of law heritage.)

  73. james

    I’m just amazed we’ve gone so many comments without Numbers waffling on about his time peeling spuds in Vietnam.

    He was sent there by an uncaring government to face unspeakable horrors dont’cha know.

  74. dan

    It when lawyers and doctors ‘tag-team’ that the most damage is done to the most vulnerable.

    It happens far more often than most acknowledge, let alone care to investigate and dare to ‘sort’.

    Here we have the latest example to make the news – most cases stay very private –

    I’m sure it does, the psychiatric profession in the Soviet Union probably being the worst example. However these heartstring-tugging stories in the tabloids are not necessarily as clear as they are portrayed. No-one on the other side of the issue is able to comment or state clearly exactly what they saw and treated. I don’t know about the case you link to obviously but there have been several deaths over recent years in and around Melbourne of children who were starved or denied treatment for curable diseases due to parental philosophies. If those cases had not got to a coroner’s court where all was revealed they could also have been portrayed as heartless hospitals abusing families.

  75. Empire Strikes Back

    How do you propose to get rid of them all?

    Aerial baiting.

    An AGwagon dumping 1080 pallets disguised as Werther’s Originals, from 50 feet on William Street, ought to do the trick.

  76. Nanuestalker QC

    I just wish to point out that “monkey bars” is wacist

  77. Nanuestalker

    I just wish to point out that “monkey bars” is Wacist

  78. Nanuestalker

    As an Irishman in Ireland I’m a republician but as an [Irish-]Australian I’m a monarchist. Go figure!

  79. Wolf

    What is the hourly rate that you, and other poor lawyers, consider to be a ‘pittance’?

    I don’t charge an hourly rate – I work for scale. Paid for the work I do, not for the time I waste.

  80. bystander

    “[T]here is some evidence that the growth rate of an economy is inversely proportional to the per capita number of lawyers.”

    Source? More of the lawyer bashing I’ve come to expect from this blog. So supply and demand in the labour market are not relevant enough to mention, and the legal profession must wear the opprobrium for the legislative excesses of successive democratic governments? Pathetic.

    The town that is too small for a lawyer is, always, big enough for two. There’s your proof. Lawyers make there own demand by overdeveloping supply. They create problems over issues people once moved on from. Then they hover productive money out of the money go round. I doubt that there has ever been a more parasitic calling.

  81. Ellen of Tasmania

    I don’t charge an hourly rate

    I beg your pardon, Wolf. My comment was really just to question whether lawyers only get paid a pittance, however they work out their rates.

  82. Now you have been proven to be a LIAR AGAIN,

    A piece of polemic on the IPA website makes me a liar?
    Unlike you, I inhabit the real world.
    You clearly inhabit a virtual fantasy.
    Throw in a bit of ad hom abuse as a distraction….
    Comedy gold.

  83. srr

    For any doctors reading, this is a reference to some not all. Without the medical profession, I wouldn’t be here.

    Interesting experience. Without the medical profession, I would be somewhere else and a lot healthier

    ditto, and very interesting ‘i rambler’, particularly considering I’m not even allowed to use current world news to elaborate.

  84. .

    1735099
    #1242237, posted on March 28, 2014 at 9:21 am
    Monkey bars & other equipment which encourage physical activity are being banned from schools across this nation due to the vultures in the legal system.

    Absolute rubbish.

    What a lying cnut.

    Unlike you, I inhabit the real world.

    The other day you reckoned that 31/33 was 100% and you were alarmed that turning right whilst travelling northbound would be a turn to the east.

    You’re a legend in your own lunchbox, numbers.

  85. Aristogeiton

    bystander
    #1242365, posted on March 28, 2014 at 11:37 am
    [...]
    The town that is too small for a lawyer is, always, big enough for two. There’s your proof.

    You’ve exceeded yourself. Your trite little dictum is all the proof any reasonable person could demand.

  86. Wolf

    I beg your pardon, Wolf. My comment was really just to question whether lawyers only get paid a pittance, however they work out their rates.

    I won’t deny that the lawyers working for the government and the big end of town make some serious bank but the average income for the profession as a whole isn’t what you’ve been led to believe. High fees don’t necessarily translate to high income.

    In the interest of full disclosure – I made $70,000.00 last year. Not exactly a pittance but when you average it out over hours worked it’s about $17 an hour. Maybe pittance understated things but its not the huge pile of cash the tenor of these comments suggest that people think we’re earning. It might cost a lot to hire a lawyer, but it also costs a hell of a lot to be one.

  87. Aristogeiton

    Wolf
    #1242485, posted on March 28, 2014 at 12:39 pm
    I beg your pardon, Wolf. My comment was really just to question whether lawyers only get paid a pittance, however they work out their rates.

    I won’t deny that the lawyers working for the government and the big end of town make some serious bank but the average income for the profession as a whole isn’t what you’ve been led to believe. High fees don’t necessarily translate to high income.

    In the interest of full disclosure – I made $70,000.00 last year. Not exactly a pittance but when you average it out over hours worked it’s about $17 an hour. Maybe pittance understated things but its not the huge pile of cash the tenor of these comments suggest that people think we’re earning. It might cost a lot to hire a lawyer, but it also costs a hell of a lot to be one.

    I’m sure these numpties don’t have a problem with the often exorbitant rates charged for other professional services.

  88. Brian of Moorabbin

    The other day you reckoned that 31/33 was 100% and you were alarmed that turning right whilst travelling northbound would be a turn to the east.

    Fuck me dead, Dot.

    I can understand Bob not understanding a right-hand turn while travelling north would mean he was then travelling east, as Bob only ever turns to the left (and obviously never learned how to use a compass while in the Army)… but did he really, as a teacher of 45+ years experience, really think that 31/33 equated to 100%?

    And he has the chutzpah to try to belittle others over their own mistakes, while ignoring his own?

    Hey Bob. I got a quote for you:
    Matthew 7:3-5

  89. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From Brian of Moorabbin at 12:46 pm:

    “…
    Bob only ever turns to the left (and obviously never learned how to use a compass while in the Army)… but did he really, as a teacher of 45+ years experience, really think that 31/33 equated to 100%?

    And he has the chutzpah to try to belittle others over their own mistakes, while ignoring his own?

    Hey Bob. I got a quote for you:
    Matthew 7:3-5″

    Why do you do it Brian? Why?

    We’ll now hear ’til dark about how the evil Menzies government did not issue compasses to spud peelers, only blunt butter knives; and how from Vung Tau one could hear the dull thud of carpet bombing from the stratosphere over on the Cambodian border. No, not that one – the border with Thailand, over on the left hand side.

    You’ve opened up the field, too, for swiftly compiled Wikipedia quotes from various apostles that he can shot back as authority for his insane mumbling and maniacal screeching.

    Friday just became entertaining.

  90. Brian of Moorabbin

    the border with Thailand, over on the left hand side.

    Would that be the one to the west (when facing north) Mick?

  91. Diogenes

    Knighthoods are redolent of the British class system and all its snobbery, protocol, and labyrinthine rules of behaviour. Yes we are not without social stratification here in Oz – but at least our version is not as entrenched and all pervasive as in the UK. After nuclear war, cockroaches will keep company with the British class system.

    Tell that to the holders of teh following knighthoods
    Sovereign Military Order of Malta, one of the original military orders, founded as the Order of St. John of Jerusalem in the eleventh century (both 1099 and 1048 have been given as the year of founding), sanctioned by Pope Paschal II February 15, 1113, and the other successors to the mediaeval Knights Hospitaller, the Bailiwick of Brandenburg of the Order of Saint John (often called the Johanniterorden) and its associated orders in the Netherlands (the Johanniter Orde in Nederland) and Sweden (the Johanniterorden i Sverige), which remain chivalric. As well as the Venerable Order of Saint John.
    Order of the Holy Sepulchre, another of the original military orders founded circa 1099.
    Order of Saint Lazarus, originally founded in 1098 at a leper hospital in the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem and is one of the lesser known orders.
    Order of the Most Holy Annunciation, founded by Amadeus VI, Count of Savoy in 1362, ceased to be a national order of Italy when the kingdom became a republic in 1946, but continues to be awarded by the heir of the last king.
    Order of the Golden Fleece, founded by Philip III, Duke of Burgundy in 1430
    Order of the Dannebrog, founded by King Christian V of Denmark in 1671
    Order of the Thistle, founded by King James VII of Scotland in 1687
    Order of the Elephant, founded by King Christian V of Denmark in 1693
    Order of St. Andrew, founded by Tsar Peter the Great of Russia in 1698
    Order of the White Eagle, founded by King Augustus II of Poland in 1705
    Order of the Seraphim, founded by Frederick I of Sweden in 1748.
    Order of the Sword, founded by Frederick I of Sweden in 1748 [Not awarded since 1974].
    Order of the Polar Star, founded by Frederick I of Sweden in 1748.
    Order of St. George the Triumphant, founded by Catherine the Great of the Russian Empire in 1769
    Royal and Distinguished Spanish Order of Carlos III, founded by Charles III of Spain on 19 September 1771 (became a Spanish order)
    Order of Vasa, founded by Gustav III of Sweden in 1772 [Not awarded since 1974].
    Order of Charles XIII, founded by Charles XIII of Sweden in 1811.
    Royal Order of Isabella the Catholic, founded by King Ferdinand VII of Spain on 14 March 1815 (became a Spanish order)
    Military William Order, founded by King William I of the Netherlands on 30 April 1815
    Order of the Netherlands Lion, founded by King William I of the Netherlands on 29 September 1815
    Order of the Southern Cross, founded by Emperor Pedro I of Brazil on December 1, 1822
    Order of Leopold, founded by King Leopold I of the Belgians on 11 July 1832
    Royal Norwegian Order of St Olav, founded by King Oscar I of Norway on 21 August 1847
    Order of Saint John (Bailiwick of Brandenburg), Order founded in 1099 and refounded in 1852
    Order of the Gold Lion of the House of Nassau, founded by King-Grand Duke William III of Luxembourg in 1858
    Order of Orange-Nassau, founded by the Queen regent Emma of the Netherlands, acting on behalf of her under-age daughter Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands on 4 April 1892
    Order of the Crown, founded by King Leopold II of the Congo Free State on 15 October 1897 (became a Belgian order in 1908)
    Order of Leopold II, founded by King Leopold II of the Congo Free State on 24 August 1900 (became a Belgian order in 1908)
    Order of Michael the Brave, founded by King Ferdinand I of Romania on 26 September 1916
    Knightly Order of Vitéz, founded by Miklós Horthy the Regent of Hungary in 1921
    Royal Order of Sahametrei, founded by King Norodom Sihanouk of the Kingdom of Cambodia on September 9, 1948
    Order of Canada, founded by Queen Elizabeth II of Canada in 1967 (the Order of Canada is a national Order of Merit)
    Royal Norwegian Order of Merit, founded by King Olav V of Norway in 1985
    New Zealand Order of Merit, founded by Queen Elizabeth II of New Zealand in 1996

  92. Diogenes

    Monkey bars & other equipment which encourage physical activity are being banned from schools across this nation due to the vultures in the legal system.

    At my school we have a full set. They are kept in a locked compound behind a 6ft high fence topped with barbed wire. Teachers are warned not use them as they will be held liable for any damage students do to themselves.

  93. Brian of Moorabbin

    No, no Diogenes. Don’t believe your lying eyes!

    Mr Whitaker, a teacher of 45+ years experience (and a former proncipal too), has stated that the story was a complete furphy as it came from that infamous;y unreliable right-wing source, the IPA (nevermind that you can find several newspapers reporting on the story if you do a quick Google search)….

  94. Brian of Moorabbin

    *principal, not proncipal

  95. Yep, no lawyers there.

    Thanks, Rabz. I couldn’t be arsed proving a foregone conclusion.

    As to Aristogeiton, I see he followed leftist debating protocol by immediately shifting the goalposts. How quick it went from “they’re public servants” to “of course they’re lawyers, but…”.

  96. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From Brian of Moorabbin at 1:17 pm:

    ” the border with Thailand, over on the left hand side.

    Would that be the one to the west (when facing north) Mick?”

    That’d be the one. It came into play because George Bush, bcause illegal secret invasion and because Spudpeeler heard the bombs – yes he did.

  97. Brian of Moorabbin

    You forgot to add evil Menzies, and the American fixations on guns in there too Mick.. ;)

  98. Diogenes, you missed the Order of the Meat Pie and Cup of Tay. Only awarded to ex-patriot Pommie Shop Stewards.

  99. Cold-Hands

    Isn’t it interesting how the so-called republicans are so keen on getting a knighthood or a QC?

    Dreyfus confessed that for him, being a QC was a purely commercial decision. How typical of the ALP not to let a little thing like his principles get in the way of the money.

  100. Aristogeiton

    The Beer Whisperer
    #1242569, posted on March 28, 2014 at 1:40 pm
    Yep, no lawyers there.

    Thanks, Rabz. I couldn’t be arsed proving a foregone conclusion.

    As to Aristogeiton, I see he followed leftist debating protocol by immediately shifting the goalposts. How quick it went from “they’re public servants” to “of course they’re lawyers, but…”.

    Only a dimwit would think that a “background in the law” could mean that a public servant is acting as a lawyer. You twits seem to believe in some kind of professional attainder. The Commissioners are not acting as lawyers, they are acting as public servants. The ALRC is an instrumentality created by the Federal Government. If you have a problem with it, then take it up with John Howard and those that voted him into office.

    Now, for the last time, I’m not a leftie you miserable toad; I am a classical liberal. Point to one comment where I have expressed leftist tendencies. Just because somebody does not agree with you does not automatically make them a “leftie”.

  101. Aristogeiton

    You can blame Whitlam for the Law Reform Commission, which it succeeded. Howard should have shut the whole thing down, IMO.

  102. johanna

    The Commissioners are not acting as lawyers, they are acting as public servants.

    A distinction without a difference.

  103. J.H.

    The fact that all existing QC’s opted to remain with the title while denying it to subsequent generations of Barristers is enough for me to say that the title should be returned.

    Had most of Australian QC’s abandoned the title, it would have been another story entirely. However, when the reasons given for keeping the title “QC” is entirely financial and commercial then it is nothing more than rigging the system for financial gain.

    In other words this group of Barristers wanted an economic competitive advantage over the incoming generation of new Barristers.

    Greedy, grabby li’l so and so’s ‘eh?………. In some ways you could say that the profession had its moral content tested…. and failed miserably.

  104. Aristogeiton

    J.H.
    #1242694, posted on March 28, 2014 at 3:19 pm
    The fact that all existing QC’s opted to remain with the title while denying it to subsequent generations of Barristers is enough for me to say that the title should be returned.

    Had most of Australian QC’s abandoned the title, it would have been another story entirely. However, when the reasons given for keeping the title “QC” is entirely financial and commercial then it is nothing more than rigging the system for financial gain.

    In other words this group of Barristers wanted an economic competitive advantage over the incoming generation of new Barristers.

    Greedy, grabby li’l so and so’s ‘eh?………. In some ways you could say that the profession had its moral content tested…. and failed miserably.

    So existing QCs, for example in Queensland, colluded with Wayne Goss to have to title of QC changed to SC, for their own financial benefit, and this constitutes a moral failing of a personified profession? It wasn’t just because Labor politicians have republican tendencies, are suspicious of traditions, and dismiss informal links to England as a manifestation of cultural cringe?

  105. Diogenes

    No, no Diogenes. Don’t believe your lying eyes!

    Quite right. In order to ensure the truth will out, I went down to the oval and took a photo & had my multimedia class remove the fence using photoshop. They, and I, feel so much better now. :-)

  106. The Commissioners are not acting as lawyers, they are acting as public servants.

    And Craig Thompson was acting as a union boss, not a horny adulterous husband.

    Point to one comment where I have expressed leftist tendencies.

    Umm, the last one? You changed your argument when the first one was proven wrong – classic leftist tactics. So you’re not lefty, fine, I wasn’t calling you that, just saying you adopted the tactics. I see you doubled-down though by trying Plan C – calling me names. Lets see if you follow leftist debating Plan D – “just shut up!”

    Howard should have shut the whole thing down, IMO.

    See? We can agree after all!!

  107. Cato the Elder

    Yes, there are a bunch of totalitarian left-wing fuckwits on various government and non-government panels who spend their lives thinking up new rules that have no benefit and make life difficult. Aristogeiton is right, when they act like this, they are public servants who happen to be lawyers; not lawyers who happen to be public servants.

    There are also a bunch of lawyers who spend their lives trying to help individuals understand, enforce and defend their rights. Would you get rid of them as well? If so, who will defend the individual against State? Who will enforce your rights when the debtor won’t pay, or some idiot tail

    Hint: if you want to get rid of the lawyers, first restructure the system so that they are no longer necessary.

  108. Cato the Elder

    Whoops.

    “or some idiot tail ends you in your car”

  109. Pickles #1242197, posted on March 28, 2014 at 8:21 am

    To see the lazy, loathsome, utterly sozzled, pretentious waffling windbags mincing around in the CBD in those ridiculous gowns and wigs is to see a bunch of clowns who’ve completely lost touch with reality

    I take issue with “mincing”.

    Then you haven’t experienced the gay and lesbian mardi gras that is the Family Court of Australia

  110. Pickles

    I have Grigory. As an applicant, respondent and on my hind legs. It’s a loathsome jurisdiction. The only place worse is a Trifuckingbunal. As For “Arbitration” what a bunch of kangaroo courts presided over by wombats that ought be fucked, burnt and shoved up a hollow log in no particular order.

  111. Tintarella di Luna

    Then you haven’t experienced the gay and lesbian mardi gras that is the Family Court of Australia

    In every location it’s the Edifice of Angst, but may I say the Guardianship Tribunal is a grotesque thing when at its rampant worst

  112. Tintarella di Luna

    The only place worse is a Trifuckingbunal.

    That’s a keeper Pickles

  113. Chris M

    It’s sickening that some lawyers in Australia go on to become judges. Hoping a lawyer may develop an interest in truth, fairness and justice – it’s like making the head Finks bikie gang a police commissioner.

  114. Chris M

    There are also a bunch of lawyers who spend their lives trying to help individuals understand, enforce and defend their rights. Would you get rid of them as well?

    Sorry to break it to you but these sort of lawyers have been extinct for about a century now Cato the Elder.

  115. It’s sickening that some lawyers in Australia go on to become judges. Hoping a lawyer may develop an interest in truth, fairness and justice – it’s like making the head Finks bikie gang a police commissioner.

    +1

  116. There are also a bunch of lawyers who spend their lives trying to help individuals understand, enforce and defend their rights. Would you get rid of them as well?

    There are some decent lawyers around, but it is the other 99% of lawyers who give the good ones a bad name.

  117. Boambee John

    “Isn’t it interesting how the so-called libertarians are so keen on Metronome Tone’s kowtowing to a foreign honour system?”

    I haven’t yet read all of the comments, so this might have already been answered.

    In case it hasn’t, however, I understand that the knighthoods (damehoods??) re-instituted by Tony Abbott are in the Order of Australia. This is an Australian, not a foreign Order. Iirc, the Order was instituted by a Labor PM.

    But apart from these minor details, you seem to be on top of the issue!

  118. the knighthoods (damehoods??) re-instituted by Tony Abbott are in the Order of Australia. This is an Australian, not a foreign Order.

    Numbers has been accused of many things, but with good reason, he’s never been accused of possessing research skills.

  119. Cato the Elder

    Sorry to break it to you but these sort of lawyers have been extinct for about a century now Cato the Elder.

    Bullshit. For normally sane people you have a real hair up your collective arse about this subject. OK, all lawyers go and get a real job. What next?

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